THE CHASE
April 28, 2017 2:49 PM Subscribe
My takeaway from the article is that this is occurring because the sentences they're receiving are far too lenient.
posted by Spacelegoman at 3:12 PM on April 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Spacelegoman at 3:12 PM on April 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
This is a giant tl;dr. My hand got tired from scrolling through looking for the answers...
posted by twsf at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2017
posted by twsf at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2017
My takeaway from the article is that this is occurring because the sentences they're receiving are far too lenient.
Makes sense, because nothing discourages anti-social behavior in youth better than stigmatizing them and making their primary peer group other kids who have similar behavioral tendencies because kids aren't easily influenced by imitating peers attitudes and behaviors at all. And poor people and failing schools need even more hurdles to jump and less money to work with so they learn to value money more, because crises always get more manageable when you pile on more harmful consequences until it's so overwhelming people learn to sink or swim using their magical gravity-defying bootstraps.
posted by saulgoodman at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2017 [59 favorites]
Makes sense, because nothing discourages anti-social behavior in youth better than stigmatizing them and making their primary peer group other kids who have similar behavioral tendencies because kids aren't easily influenced by imitating peers attitudes and behaviors at all. And poor people and failing schools need even more hurdles to jump and less money to work with so they learn to value money more, because crises always get more manageable when you pile on more harmful consequences until it's so overwhelming people learn to sink or swim using their magical gravity-defying bootstraps.
posted by saulgoodman at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2017 [59 favorites]
My parents live in Pinellas County. In December 2015, my Dad had his Mazda Miata convertible stolen in broad daylight from a Publix parking lot. Three days later, somebody put it back in the same parking lot, with no visible damage but a jimmied ignition. Don't think they ever found out who did it; wonder if it was a case like this.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:25 PM on April 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:25 PM on April 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm not excusing auto theft because car owners are careless, but why the heck do so people people living in a county that seems to have a major car theft problem leave their cars unlocked?
posted by zachlipton at 3:30 PM on April 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:30 PM on April 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
My takeaway from the article is that this is occurring because the sentences they're receiving are far too lenient.
The problem with that view, which is certainly one that the article is encouraging you to take, is that this isn't an epidemic in Florida, but rather in Pinellas County. If this were a good article, it would try to understand what drives that, instead of engaging in handwringing about not punishing children hard enough. Especially when there is plenty of evidence to support the view that custodial sentences for children increase recidivism.
posted by howfar at 3:30 PM on April 28, 2017 [23 favorites]
The problem with that view, which is certainly one that the article is encouraging you to take, is that this isn't an epidemic in Florida, but rather in Pinellas County. If this were a good article, it would try to understand what drives that, instead of engaging in handwringing about not punishing children hard enough. Especially when there is plenty of evidence to support the view that custodial sentences for children increase recidivism.
posted by howfar at 3:30 PM on April 28, 2017 [23 favorites]
If T-Man wasn't a star before, he's a star now.
posted by clawsoon at 3:39 PM on April 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 3:39 PM on April 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
It definitely seemed like acombination of factors: connection with a huge peer group via social media, slap-on-the-wrist sentencing, need for transportation, and the police decision not to chase stolen vehicles all play a role. Are there inspection laws in FL? I can't help thinking what these kids need are a bunch of beaters and some mechanic mentors. You fix it, you own it.
posted by epj at 3:40 PM on April 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by epj at 3:40 PM on April 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Yeah. I cannot understand what possible rationale there was for naming anyone in this article, despite the non-explanation at the end of both parts. It serves no journalistic purpose beyond titillation.
posted by howfar at 3:41 PM on April 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by howfar at 3:41 PM on April 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
zachlipton, my hometown police are forever warning people not to leave their keys in their car overnight, and I always thought, "Why are people so foolish here?" I guess I need to recalibrate my expectations a little.
posted by epj at 3:42 PM on April 28, 2017
posted by epj at 3:42 PM on April 28, 2017
probably to get out of Pinellas County.
posted by boo_radley at 3:48 PM on April 28, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by boo_radley at 3:48 PM on April 28, 2017 [17 favorites]
At the opposite end of the spectrum: in 2015 Denver police shot to death LGBTQ teen Jennifer Hernandez where she sat in the driver's seat of a slowly-moving stolen car because they felt threatened. No stolen guns involved. Shooting the driver of a moving car does not stop the car, of course, and they fortunately didn't kill anyone else inside.
No officer involved was ever charged (shocking, I know) but police department policy no longer allows them to shoot at moving vehicles and it looks as though only a few days ago the city settled with her family for $1 million.
posted by XMLicious at 4:23 PM on April 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
No officer involved was ever charged (shocking, I know) but police department policy no longer allows them to shoot at moving vehicles and it looks as though only a few days ago the city settled with her family for $1 million.
posted by XMLicious at 4:23 PM on April 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
I live amidst several of those red dots. I'm an insomniac. At least 2-3 times a week i go outside and watch them drive down my dead end street. The irrational anger blinds me with rage. I want, seriously, to shoot several of them so they know to stay the fuck away from my home, my neighborhood, my family.
I live in a fancy high end street.
So far, i just call the cops, flip on the lights and hit the panic button. They run or peel out in the van they stole earlier. But they got my next door neighbors escalade. And every once in awhile one of the little shit fucks looks back and thinks about coming over.
Im young, i worked super hard to buy this house with plans to die in it and pass it on to my kids. I hate HATE these assholes. I'm not proud about these feelings but when they call it an epidemic it's not just a term de arte. It's all consuming amongst neighbors and friends.
posted by chasles at 4:27 PM on April 28, 2017 [19 favorites]
I live in a fancy high end street.
So far, i just call the cops, flip on the lights and hit the panic button. They run or peel out in the van they stole earlier. But they got my next door neighbors escalade. And every once in awhile one of the little shit fucks looks back and thinks about coming over.
Im young, i worked super hard to buy this house with plans to die in it and pass it on to my kids. I hate HATE these assholes. I'm not proud about these feelings but when they call it an epidemic it's not just a term de arte. It's all consuming amongst neighbors and friends.
posted by chasles at 4:27 PM on April 28, 2017 [19 favorites]
As for the article i was super proud of the development of data etc and ready to compliment the times as i often do, but they did sort of makes stars of the kids and not really come to any conclusion didnt they?
posted by chasles at 4:29 PM on April 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by chasles at 4:29 PM on April 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Where I come from an "unlocked car with a key inside" is universally considered community property. I mostly try to resist victim-blaming, but I'm astonished to learn that living Americans would ever think of doing such a thing.
posted by eotvos at 4:53 PM on April 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by eotvos at 4:53 PM on April 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
why the heck do so people people living in a county that seems to have a major car theft problem leave their cars unlocked
Lots of people are just plain shitheads. Evidence: 2016.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:04 PM on April 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
Lots of people are just plain shitheads. Evidence: 2016.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:04 PM on April 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
(and, too, St. Petersburg has more than its fair share of really old people who kinda shouldn't be driving and just forget about stuff like that, or have a touch of dementia and forget that it's not 1948)
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:05 PM on April 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:05 PM on April 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Even harder to understand than the unlocked cars is the firearms left inside. Guns. In unlocked cars. The mind boggles.
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 5:07 PM on April 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 5:07 PM on April 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
Makes sense, because nothing discourages anti-social behavior in youth better than stigmatizing them and making their primary peer group other kids who have similar behavioral tendencies...
I don't care about whether they're "stigmatized", I care about whether they're stealing cars or not. They wouldn't be able to do this if they were in prison. And their primary peer group is already kids who have these behavioral tendencies, and are also getting away with massive crime sprees.
posted by Spacelegoman at 5:20 PM on April 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't care about whether they're "stigmatized", I care about whether they're stealing cars or not. They wouldn't be able to do this if they were in prison. And their primary peer group is already kids who have these behavioral tendencies, and are also getting away with massive crime sprees.
posted by Spacelegoman at 5:20 PM on April 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
why the heck do so people people living in a county that seems to have a major car theft problem leave their cars unlocked
Some people I know leave their car unlocked so the window isn't smashed when someone wants to rifle through the stuff inside.
posted by dragoon at 5:32 PM on April 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Some people I know leave their car unlocked so the window isn't smashed when someone wants to rifle through the stuff inside.
posted by dragoon at 5:32 PM on April 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Yeah substantial portions of this article seem to be designed to ensure these kids will never get a shot at turning their lives around once their names and pictures are posted online forever.
posted by zachlipton at 5:42 PM on April 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 5:42 PM on April 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
How do we determine whether someone is responsible (and to what degree) for their actions relative to their circumstances around them?
posted by fizzix at 6:00 PM on April 28, 2017
posted by fizzix at 6:00 PM on April 28, 2017
I don't care about whether they're "stigmatized", I care about whether they're stealing cars or not.
I care about their whole damn lives as human beings. They're human kids and cars are just machines. You screw these kids up for the rest of their lives and it'll cost everybody a lot more over the long run.
They. Are. Only. Children. Adults are supposed to guide them, not throw them away.
posted by saulgoodman at 6:17 PM on April 28, 2017 [40 favorites]
I care about their whole damn lives as human beings. They're human kids and cars are just machines. You screw these kids up for the rest of their lives and it'll cost everybody a lot more over the long run.
They. Are. Only. Children. Adults are supposed to guide them, not throw them away.
posted by saulgoodman at 6:17 PM on April 28, 2017 [40 favorites]
Cars are not just machines, they're mobility. They mean getting to a job on time or at all, being able to visit your friends and relatives, go to the supermarket... they're also significant investments; the people who live in this neighborhood can't just go out and buy another one.
What these "kids" (actually teenagers who know full well that they are committing crimes and putting people's lives at risk) are doing is absolutely devastating to the social fabric of the place they live in. They are the least deserving of sympathy of anyone in that article.
posted by Spacelegoman at 6:55 PM on April 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
What these "kids" (actually teenagers who know full well that they are committing crimes and putting people's lives at risk) are doing is absolutely devastating to the social fabric of the place they live in. They are the least deserving of sympathy of anyone in that article.
posted by Spacelegoman at 6:55 PM on April 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
Crime is just a symptom. People break laws either because they don't think they will get caught or have nothing to lose. You can fix the former by increasing enforcement and punishment, but the latter is really what drives crime like this.
As a general principle, punishing individuals has never been very effective. We've learned that long ago in manufacturing / industrial safety. There was a story of a round badge with two screw holes in it, that would on occasion be installed upside down (1 in 1,000 times). You could punish the worker who got it wrong with heavier and heavier penalties, but you will NEVER eliminate the problem. The solution was to, of course, design the badge with one larger hole and one smaller hole, so it was impossible to install upside down.
You can't fix this type of crime by punishing criminals harder, any more than you could fix the issue of upside down badges by punishing the offending worker harder.
posted by xdvesper at 7:26 PM on April 28, 2017 [17 favorites]
As a general principle, punishing individuals has never been very effective. We've learned that long ago in manufacturing / industrial safety. There was a story of a round badge with two screw holes in it, that would on occasion be installed upside down (1 in 1,000 times). You could punish the worker who got it wrong with heavier and heavier penalties, but you will NEVER eliminate the problem. The solution was to, of course, design the badge with one larger hole and one smaller hole, so it was impossible to install upside down.
You can't fix this type of crime by punishing criminals harder, any more than you could fix the issue of upside down badges by punishing the offending worker harder.
posted by xdvesper at 7:26 PM on April 28, 2017 [17 favorites]
Spacelegoman, did you catch in the article where it said the kids doing the stealing/joyriding are as young as 10? Yes, some of the kids involved are older teens, but some are elementary- or middle-school-aged kids. Even at 18, our brain is still developing its executive functioning skills. At 10? They need to be held responsible, yes, but the idea that any of these kids have thought through the ramifications of their actions is extremely unlikely.
posted by epj at 7:27 PM on April 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by epj at 7:27 PM on April 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
They. Are. Only. Children. Adults are supposed to guide them, not throw them away.
This is absolutely correct. However I feel that the fact that there are NO meaningful consequences when they are caught IS a sign of indifference to their fates. Did you notice how it went from 21 days in a place described as better than some of there homes, (I'd really want something more substantial before I buy that completely,) to 4 years in prison with nothing in between? How is anyone served by a system that works like that? I do not know what the answer is but I don't think that a harsher punishment right off the bat is necessarily a bad thing. Of course it is all problematic as harsher punishment can just be cover for child exploitation or nothing but furthering of misery with no real point. Maybe it is impossible for the state to negotiate this successfully. That is a depressing thought, because I hope that no matter how imperfect it might be there is a chance that juvenile justice might be better than nothing.
posted by Pembquist at 8:00 PM on April 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
This is absolutely correct. However I feel that the fact that there are NO meaningful consequences when they are caught IS a sign of indifference to their fates. Did you notice how it went from 21 days in a place described as better than some of there homes, (I'd really want something more substantial before I buy that completely,) to 4 years in prison with nothing in between? How is anyone served by a system that works like that? I do not know what the answer is but I don't think that a harsher punishment right off the bat is necessarily a bad thing. Of course it is all problematic as harsher punishment can just be cover for child exploitation or nothing but furthering of misery with no real point. Maybe it is impossible for the state to negotiate this successfully. That is a depressing thought, because I hope that no matter how imperfect it might be there is a chance that juvenile justice might be better than nothing.
posted by Pembquist at 8:00 PM on April 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
I dunno if it's the same in the states, but over in Europe, your contents insurance isn't going to pay out if your front door wasn't locked - something about taking reasonable preventative steps. If you leave your car unlocked (or worse yet, with the keys in it somewhere) and it gets nicked, is your insurance going to pay out?
posted by Dysk at 9:06 PM on April 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 9:06 PM on April 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
What these "kids" (actually teenagers who know full well that they are committing crimes and putting people's lives at risk) are doing is absolutely devastating to the social fabric of the place they live in. They are the least deserving of sympathy of anyone in that article.
Even if you don't care about these people (as is your right), the reality is that, as I mentioned above, the available evidence strongly indicates that imprisoning minors causes a major increase in recidivism rates. It is possible (although by no means certain, given that this article describes a county-wide phenomenon which is demonstrably being caused by factors over and above state-wide sentencing policy) that harsher sentences would reduce this specific offending behaviour, but it is extremely likely that it would do so at the expense of significantly increasing offending over the course of the lives of those imprisoned. The medium and long-term state-wide impact upon crime, communities, the public purse and the economy of the intervention you support is, on current evidence, very likely to be a strong net negative.
Maybe it is impossible for the state to negotiate this successfully. That is a depressing thought, because I hope that no matter how imperfect it might be there is a chance that juvenile justice might be better than nothing.
Custodial sentences for minors are, on the basis of available evidence, significantly worse than nothing. But, firstly, "juvenile justice" ≠ the incarceration of minors: there are a wide range of interventions available to the criminal justice system that do not involve imprisonment; and, secondly, the state has an even wider range of tools for intervention than those provided by the criminal justice system.
posted by howfar at 11:21 PM on April 28, 2017 [22 favorites]
Even if you don't care about these people (as is your right), the reality is that, as I mentioned above, the available evidence strongly indicates that imprisoning minors causes a major increase in recidivism rates. It is possible (although by no means certain, given that this article describes a county-wide phenomenon which is demonstrably being caused by factors over and above state-wide sentencing policy) that harsher sentences would reduce this specific offending behaviour, but it is extremely likely that it would do so at the expense of significantly increasing offending over the course of the lives of those imprisoned. The medium and long-term state-wide impact upon crime, communities, the public purse and the economy of the intervention you support is, on current evidence, very likely to be a strong net negative.
Maybe it is impossible for the state to negotiate this successfully. That is a depressing thought, because I hope that no matter how imperfect it might be there is a chance that juvenile justice might be better than nothing.
Custodial sentences for minors are, on the basis of available evidence, significantly worse than nothing. But, firstly, "juvenile justice" ≠ the incarceration of minors: there are a wide range of interventions available to the criminal justice system that do not involve imprisonment; and, secondly, the state has an even wider range of tools for intervention than those provided by the criminal justice system.
posted by howfar at 11:21 PM on April 28, 2017 [22 favorites]
Yeah, more community involvement from the cops would go a looooooong way. If I lived there, I'd be ticked off beyond belief that the cops haven't found a pattern to the behavior and a way to head it off before it results in grand theft auto. Judge Dredd "lock 'em up forever!" bullshit would only turn joy riders into more dangerous sorts of felons.
posted by Slap*Happy at 3:51 AM on April 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Slap*Happy at 3:51 AM on April 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
At least 2-3 times a week i go outside and watch them drive down my dead end street. The irrational anger blinds me with rage. I want, seriously, to shoot several of them so they know to stay the fuck away from my home, my neighborhood, my family.
I live in a fancy high end street.
When kids act out, the way they do so will reflect the values of their community. If kids are confronted with a culture that seems to value objects of conspicuous consumption more than it values their lives, is it any wonder they act out in ways that center around those objects?
posted by dbx at 6:48 AM on April 29, 2017 [6 favorites]
I live in a fancy high end street.
When kids act out, the way they do so will reflect the values of their community. If kids are confronted with a culture that seems to value objects of conspicuous consumption more than it values their lives, is it any wonder they act out in ways that center around those objects?
posted by dbx at 6:48 AM on April 29, 2017 [6 favorites]
Everyone should go read this excellent comment by decathecting (who is a lawyer) about what happens to minors in her community when they get arrested.
posted by rtha at 8:20 AM on April 29, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by rtha at 8:20 AM on April 29, 2017 [8 favorites]
A FPP about my neck of the woods!
Yay!
Unfortunately, it's about teen/preteen car thieves.
BOO!
But yeah, this happens on a regular basis in my South St Petersburg Near Sunshine Skyway Bridge neighborhood.
Our bestie, 4 doors down, had her Jeep Liberty stolen and of course, it was teens, and of course, it ended in a wreck.
And of course, it was in the paper.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 9:09 AM on April 29, 2017
Yay!
Unfortunately, it's about teen/preteen car thieves.
BOO!
But yeah, this happens on a regular basis in my South St Petersburg Near Sunshine Skyway Bridge neighborhood.
Our bestie, 4 doors down, had her Jeep Liberty stolen and of course, it was teens, and of course, it ended in a wreck.
And of course, it was in the paper.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 9:09 AM on April 29, 2017
I lived in Pinellas County for a few years. Always locked my car and have never owned a gun.
One of the things that struck me when I moved there from New England in 2005 was the omnipresence of religiosity. People routinely asked me if I had a found a "church home", an expression I had never heard before. When I subbed for a few weeks at a public middle school (4,000 students!) I was appalled to discover that the day began with the principal reciting a Jesus prayer. A student reported me for using the word damn -not calling a student a damned anything, just using it in an impersonal way- and that was the end of my subbing.
Maybe this is what happens when you "bring back" prayer in schools, something the right wing has been fighting for for decades.
posted by mareli at 9:34 AM on April 29, 2017 [4 favorites]
One of the things that struck me when I moved there from New England in 2005 was the omnipresence of religiosity. People routinely asked me if I had a found a "church home", an expression I had never heard before. When I subbed for a few weeks at a public middle school (4,000 students!) I was appalled to discover that the day began with the principal reciting a Jesus prayer. A student reported me for using the word damn -not calling a student a damned anything, just using it in an impersonal way- and that was the end of my subbing.
Maybe this is what happens when you "bring back" prayer in schools, something the right wing has been fighting for for decades.
posted by mareli at 9:34 AM on April 29, 2017 [4 favorites]
Mareli: I don't know that Christian religion per se contributes to teen car theft, but I think it's an indicator of something that does: within an authoritarian system, one does something because someone - a punitive parent or a punitive God - is watching, and not because it's the right thing to do. I wonder how many of these teens are brought up with "if you steal and get caught, God will punish you" and not "stealing your neighbor's car is morally wrong and makes your neighbor feel bad and incur expense."
And the obvious corollary is: if you don't get caught, anything goes! So, Thou Shalt Not Get Caught replaces Thou Shalt Not Steal.
I think the teens stealing cars must be held accountable, which doesn't mean severe punishment. I think restitution and counseling are the proper consequences. They need to hear that the person whose car they stole is their neighbor, who isn't made of money, and had to go without transportation to the grocery store, kids' school, grandma's nursing home, etc. and how this made the neighbor (and kids, and grandma) feel.
And family counseling as well - I bet most of these kids are in dysfunctional families.
Punishment can be brought in if a kid just shrugs his way through restitution and commits multiple offenses, but I think restorative justice has more potential for long-term deterrence. The kids need to learn that stealing from their neighbors is wrong, and not just "don't get caught."
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:09 PM on April 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
And the obvious corollary is: if you don't get caught, anything goes! So, Thou Shalt Not Get Caught replaces Thou Shalt Not Steal.
I think the teens stealing cars must be held accountable, which doesn't mean severe punishment. I think restitution and counseling are the proper consequences. They need to hear that the person whose car they stole is their neighbor, who isn't made of money, and had to go without transportation to the grocery store, kids' school, grandma's nursing home, etc. and how this made the neighbor (and kids, and grandma) feel.
And family counseling as well - I bet most of these kids are in dysfunctional families.
Punishment can be brought in if a kid just shrugs his way through restitution and commits multiple offenses, but I think restorative justice has more potential for long-term deterrence. The kids need to learn that stealing from their neighbors is wrong, and not just "don't get caught."
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:09 PM on April 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
When kids act out, the way they do so will reflect the values of their community. If kids are confronted with a culture that seems to value objects of conspicuous consumption more than it values their lives, is it any wonder they act out in ways that center around those objects?
posted by dbx at 9:48 AM on April 29
The fuck?? I have a modest pickup i bought used. We both work and live with only one car.
I spent today helping underprivileged and special neees kids have an awesome day. Half of my nice street was involved. Your way off on your comment, not perosnally but conceptually. They might be reflecting some community but is sure isnt the one theyre stealing from when they come here. This sint acting out. It's fucking crime, and often violent crime. In other places its not as bad because they put the kids away. There are repercussions. Here there aren't.
Also not the issue: old people (a. Gross thought and b. Theyre generally more protective and scared not less and c. The avg age here has dropped a ton in last 10 years to about the national average from previously very high)
And hey, sometimes doors get left unlocked. It's an accident. Right? Pretty sure victim blaming is still a super shitty thing to do just because "kids will be kids"
posted by chasles at 4:22 PM on April 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by dbx at 9:48 AM on April 29
The fuck?? I have a modest pickup i bought used. We both work and live with only one car.
I spent today helping underprivileged and special neees kids have an awesome day. Half of my nice street was involved. Your way off on your comment, not perosnally but conceptually. They might be reflecting some community but is sure isnt the one theyre stealing from when they come here. This sint acting out. It's fucking crime, and often violent crime. In other places its not as bad because they put the kids away. There are repercussions. Here there aren't.
Also not the issue: old people (a. Gross thought and b. Theyre generally more protective and scared not less and c. The avg age here has dropped a ton in last 10 years to about the national average from previously very high)
And hey, sometimes doors get left unlocked. It's an accident. Right? Pretty sure victim blaming is still a super shitty thing to do just because "kids will be kids"
posted by chasles at 4:22 PM on April 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Life is nuanced of course, I just can't help but feel that it is far easier to argue for understanding and clemency for the teen car theives when its not your handicapped accessible vehicle being stolen and totaled. Or not your loved one who is injured or killed in a hit and run...
posted by WalkerWestridge at 4:33 PM on April 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 4:33 PM on April 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
The fuck?? I have a modest pickup i bought used. We both work and live with only one car.
I spent today helping underprivileged and special neees kids have an awesome day. Half of my nice street was involved. Your way off on your comment, not perosnally but conceptually.
Your first comment in this thread, about teens and children as young as 10 years old stealing cars, was to advocate murder. I don't think that you are being unfairly misread, I think that you aren't paying enough attention to what you are saying and getting an unfavorable response.
At least 2-3 times a week i go outside and watch them drive down my dead end street. The irrational anger blinds me with rage. I want, seriously, to shoot several of them so they know to stay the fuck away from my home, my neighborhood, my family.
I live in a fancy high end street.
Is your position that you are not a fully competent shot and might accidentally kill one of your neighbors, are you a crack marksman who will only hit your own car and no people, or is your position that you will shoot a child in the car? If you shoot your gun in a neighborhood, "a fancy high end street," you need to realize that there is a very real possibility that you will hit a person.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:48 PM on April 29, 2017
I spent today helping underprivileged and special neees kids have an awesome day. Half of my nice street was involved. Your way off on your comment, not perosnally but conceptually.
Your first comment in this thread, about teens and children as young as 10 years old stealing cars, was to advocate murder. I don't think that you are being unfairly misread, I think that you aren't paying enough attention to what you are saying and getting an unfavorable response.
At least 2-3 times a week i go outside and watch them drive down my dead end street. The irrational anger blinds me with rage. I want, seriously, to shoot several of them so they know to stay the fuck away from my home, my neighborhood, my family.
I live in a fancy high end street.
Is your position that you are not a fully competent shot and might accidentally kill one of your neighbors, are you a crack marksman who will only hit your own car and no people, or is your position that you will shoot a child in the car? If you shoot your gun in a neighborhood, "a fancy high end street," you need to realize that there is a very real possibility that you will hit a person.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:48 PM on April 29, 2017
oh please, that was clearly an expression of frustration. Note his/her use of the word "irrational" in the preceding sentence.
Carjacking/car theft is a major, fairly recent problem in Milwaukee, where I live. I haven't done the research to be able to comment on what has contributed to the rise, but it's probably not "lenient sentences." Wisconsin has a very high incarceration rate, especially for black males, who are the ones most often caught (according to pictures in the news).
If I had to venture a guess, I'd say it was a combination of boredom and jealousy; a reaction to the extreme segregation and poverty in the area. A lot of the carjackings have been on the borders of the black & white neighborhoods.
posted by AFABulous at 5:58 PM on April 29, 2017 [6 favorites]
Carjacking/car theft is a major, fairly recent problem in Milwaukee, where I live. I haven't done the research to be able to comment on what has contributed to the rise, but it's probably not "lenient sentences." Wisconsin has a very high incarceration rate, especially for black males, who are the ones most often caught (according to pictures in the news).
If I had to venture a guess, I'd say it was a combination of boredom and jealousy; a reaction to the extreme segregation and poverty in the area. A lot of the carjackings have been on the borders of the black & white neighborhoods.
posted by AFABulous at 5:58 PM on April 29, 2017 [6 favorites]
Life is nuanced of course, I just can't help but feel that it is far easier to argue for understanding and clemency for the teen car theives when its not your handicapped accessible vehicle being stolen and totaled. Or not your loved one who is injured or killed in a hit and run...
Yes. Agreed.
oh please, that was clearly an expression of frustration. Note his/her use of the word "irrational" in the preceding sentence.
Thanks. Clearly im not nuanced on this. But i appreciate a fair read. And to be clear, i dont plan to shoot anyone unless i or my family are in certain mortal danger. But the naked helplessness is pretty shocking when you aren't used to exposure. It's also worth noting that i didnt mention shooting kids. The article is less than clear but we all know... the data is there, under 18 is about half of the thefts. One or two were as young as 10. The other half are adult criminals. And the danger of having criminals, adult or otherwise, is becoming ever present.
posted by chasles at 6:49 PM on April 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes. Agreed.
oh please, that was clearly an expression of frustration. Note his/her use of the word "irrational" in the preceding sentence.
Thanks. Clearly im not nuanced on this. But i appreciate a fair read. And to be clear, i dont plan to shoot anyone unless i or my family are in certain mortal danger. But the naked helplessness is pretty shocking when you aren't used to exposure. It's also worth noting that i didnt mention shooting kids. The article is less than clear but we all know... the data is there, under 18 is about half of the thefts. One or two were as young as 10. The other half are adult criminals. And the danger of having criminals, adult or otherwise, is becoming ever present.
posted by chasles at 6:49 PM on April 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Did you notice how it went from 21 days in a place described as better than some of there homes..."
Maybe that's part of the problem -- the juvenile detention center is a better place than where the kids live? Could poverty and racism be contributing to the problem? I just want to mention that pinellas county is one of the most segregated of Florida's large, urban counties, and race relations have been a simmering problem for decades. But that probably has nothing to do with nihilistic behavior among kids.
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:41 PM on April 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Maybe that's part of the problem -- the juvenile detention center is a better place than where the kids live? Could poverty and racism be contributing to the problem? I just want to mention that pinellas county is one of the most segregated of Florida's large, urban counties, and race relations have been a simmering problem for decades. But that probably has nothing to do with nihilistic behavior among kids.
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:41 PM on April 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
oh please, that was clearly an expression of frustration. Note his/her use of the word "irrational" in the preceding sentence.
Because trigger happy Florida yahoos who go blind with rage always behave rationally when shooting people.
It's also worth noting that i didnt mention shooting kids.
No, you just want to shoot at a car without knowing who is inside. Having a car broken into or stolen absolutely sucks, it's all kinds of shitty. But it's not worth killing someone over. I just Googled, "man shoots at car and kills child." The first four stories I read weren't the one I was thinking of but I got bummed out and stopped looking.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:56 PM on April 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Because trigger happy Florida yahoos who go blind with rage always behave rationally when shooting people.
It's also worth noting that i didnt mention shooting kids.
No, you just want to shoot at a car without knowing who is inside. Having a car broken into or stolen absolutely sucks, it's all kinds of shitty. But it's not worth killing someone over. I just Googled, "man shoots at car and kills child." The first four stories I read weren't the one I was thinking of but I got bummed out and stopped looking.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:56 PM on April 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
And the danger of having criminals, adult or otherwise, is becoming ever present.
It's not like there are two types of people in the world: law-abiding citizens (who wouldn't hurt a fly) and criminals (who would just as soon murder you on your sleep as shoplift). Joy riding isn't murder, and there isn't anything to indicate that joy riders are likely to start bringing weapons to hunt people in their homes or anything. Having your stuff stolen sucks (I was subject to an attempted break-in the other week, foiled only because I was in the damn flat at the time) but it's not like that means there are undifferentiated criminals about, putting us all in danger. Opportunistic thieves are opportunistic thieves, joyriders are joyriders, neither are murderers or rapists or whatever.
posted by Dysk at 12:39 AM on April 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's not like there are two types of people in the world: law-abiding citizens (who wouldn't hurt a fly) and criminals (who would just as soon murder you on your sleep as shoplift). Joy riding isn't murder, and there isn't anything to indicate that joy riders are likely to start bringing weapons to hunt people in their homes or anything. Having your stuff stolen sucks (I was subject to an attempted break-in the other week, foiled only because I was in the damn flat at the time) but it's not like that means there are undifferentiated criminals about, putting us all in danger. Opportunistic thieves are opportunistic thieves, joyriders are joyriders, neither are murderers or rapists or whatever.
posted by Dysk at 12:39 AM on April 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Note his/her use of the word "irrational" in the preceding sentence.
And the use of the emphasizer "seriously", which in my experience is used to say "I actually mean whay I am saying, it is not a figure of speech. And the escalade mention as well. I'm sure you're a good person with struggles of your own; almost everybody is. But there's little question that our culture does elevate objects above people in many cases, and the comment I was responding to was of a piece with that.
posted by dbx at 5:00 AM on April 30, 2017
And the use of the emphasizer "seriously", which in my experience is used to say "I actually mean whay I am saying, it is not a figure of speech. And the escalade mention as well. I'm sure you're a good person with struggles of your own; almost everybody is. But there's little question that our culture does elevate objects above people in many cases, and the comment I was responding to was of a piece with that.
posted by dbx at 5:00 AM on April 30, 2017
, you just want to shoot at a car without knowing who is inside.
Actually no. One drives a stolen van down the street. The rest are walking and checking garage doors, car doors, sometimes front doors. Those that walk up my driveway 10 feet from my kids window are the ones i freak out over.
And im still amazed at the defending this with cute terms like joy riding. Ya and robbing a liquor store at gun point is "happy shopping "
These fuckers, regardless of age, have killed a lot of people in accidents, and with stolen guns. And yes it is reprehensible to leave a gun in an unlocked car, but no one is forcing the precious youths to take the guns and steal cars.
posted by chasles at 6:23 AM on April 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Actually no. One drives a stolen van down the street. The rest are walking and checking garage doors, car doors, sometimes front doors. Those that walk up my driveway 10 feet from my kids window are the ones i freak out over.
And im still amazed at the defending this with cute terms like joy riding. Ya and robbing a liquor store at gun point is "happy shopping "
These fuckers, regardless of age, have killed a lot of people in accidents, and with stolen guns. And yes it is reprehensible to leave a gun in an unlocked car, but no one is forcing the precious youths to take the guns and steal cars.
posted by chasles at 6:23 AM on April 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
And the use of the emphasizer "seriously", which in my experience is used to say "I actually mean whay I am saying, it is not a figure of speech.
Yes, I'm sure someone is posting their actual murder plans on metafilter. At least we have well-known instructions on how to dispose of the body.
posted by AFABulous at 6:49 AM on April 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yes, I'm sure someone is posting their actual murder plans on metafilter. At least we have well-known instructions on how to dispose of the body.
posted by AFABulous at 6:49 AM on April 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Here in Milwaukee there have been multiple instances of teenagers stealing cars not knowing there was a baby/small child in the backseat. I'm not a parent but I can sure imagine being in a murderous state of mind if someone had stolen my child, even inadvertently. (AFAIK all the children were unharmed. Some were abandoned by the car thief on the side of the road.)
posted by AFABulous at 6:54 AM on April 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 6:54 AM on April 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
And im still amazed at the defending this with cute terms like joy riding. Ya and robbing a liquor store at gun point is "happy shopping "
Joy riding is a pretty common term, and it's hardly defending car thieves to point out that car thieves are not the same thing as murderers. Joy riding is, if anything, more damning - it indicates it's a crime motivated by boredom, not economic necessity, as the thief is just driving the car around for kicks, not selling it to feed their family.
posted by Dysk at 9:02 AM on April 30, 2017
Joy riding is a pretty common term, and it's hardly defending car thieves to point out that car thieves are not the same thing as murderers. Joy riding is, if anything, more damning - it indicates it's a crime motivated by boredom, not economic necessity, as the thief is just driving the car around for kicks, not selling it to feed their family.
posted by Dysk at 9:02 AM on April 30, 2017
On the other hand joy riding (the occasional accidental kidnapping not withstanding) is essentially a non-violent property crime by intent; armed robbery at gun point isn't.
posted by Mitheral at 12:33 PM on April 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 12:33 PM on April 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Y'all, I can almost guarantee that if I knew I wouldn't be charged with a crime, I totally would have stolen a Lamborghini and taken it for a drive when I was 15.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:45 AM on May 1, 2017
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:45 AM on May 1, 2017
I would've been grounded until I was 18. My parents would've made it worse than prison. That was incentive enough not to do bad things. The parents of these kids are failing them.
posted by AFABulous at 8:45 AM on May 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 8:45 AM on May 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Y'all, I can almost guarantee that if I knew I wouldn't be charged with a crime, I totally would have stolen a Lamborghini and taken it for a drive when I was 15.
Leaving your personal moral standards aside, this isn't an article about a correlation between Florida's charging or sentencing policy and rates of vehicle theft, but rather one about the unusual prevalence of this particular form of youth offending in a specific area in Florida. It is, however, a bad article specifically because it places huge emphasis on a factor which we know cannot sufficiently explain the problem. It's simply not trying to address the question it claims to be dealing with.
posted by howfar at 9:53 AM on May 1, 2017
Leaving your personal moral standards aside, this isn't an article about a correlation between Florida's charging or sentencing policy and rates of vehicle theft, but rather one about the unusual prevalence of this particular form of youth offending in a specific area in Florida. It is, however, a bad article specifically because it places huge emphasis on a factor which we know cannot sufficiently explain the problem. It's simply not trying to address the question it claims to be dealing with.
posted by howfar at 9:53 AM on May 1, 2017
If a man stealsborrows a Lamborghini and returns it with a full tank of gas in the morning before anyone notices was it ever missing?
posted by Mitheral at 10:17 AM on May 1, 2017
posted by Mitheral at 10:17 AM on May 1, 2017
Yeah, I'll be honest. I grew up in Pinellas county, in one of the areas poor enough that cars aren't getting lifted there. I wrote a long ass comment about race relations in that area, and public transportation, and the huge car culture, but I deleted it because it didn't really elucidate anything other than the fact that St. Pete may have cosmetically changed and tarted herself up to bring in tourists, but the the divide between Black and White is as charged and as hardcore as it was when our rival school team was the Dixie Generals. Seriously, integration wasn't fully rolled in until the late 70s. Black people don't move north of a certain line, and white folks don't move south below a certain line, and anyone of the wrong color in the wrong section of town is going to get stink-eye.
And I depressed myself so much thinking about how little has changed in 40 years, that I reduced myself to joking. (Although really, I took my parents cars for joyrides, we all did. Gas stations with outdoor vacuums to get the sand out of the upholstery did huge business at night, I can tell you.Seriously, we returned the cars clean, with gas in...there was no way our parents didn't know.)
Joyriding is a long tradition in that part of the state, and while obviously these kids aren't joyriding, I'm thinking that it's probably taking a long time for a car culture used to kids "borrowing" cars, to adapt to a situation where the cars being borrowed aren't Uncle Bob's '64 T-bird, but actual, armed robbery.
All that said; this current epidemic, I'm willing to bet money, can be directly traced to the really insane history of race relations in central florida.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:53 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
And I depressed myself so much thinking about how little has changed in 40 years, that I reduced myself to joking. (Although really, I took my parents cars for joyrides, we all did. Gas stations with outdoor vacuums to get the sand out of the upholstery did huge business at night, I can tell you.Seriously, we returned the cars clean, with gas in...there was no way our parents didn't know.)
Joyriding is a long tradition in that part of the state, and while obviously these kids aren't joyriding, I'm thinking that it's probably taking a long time for a car culture used to kids "borrowing" cars, to adapt to a situation where the cars being borrowed aren't Uncle Bob's '64 T-bird, but actual, armed robbery.
All that said; this current epidemic, I'm willing to bet money, can be directly traced to the really insane history of race relations in central florida.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:53 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Completely tangentially: Thailand Pulls Passport of Fugitive Red Bull Heir
Dude killed a cop in his Ferrari and finally might be starting to face consequences five years later. (Was in his late twenties at the time of the incident.)
So, whatever the various merits of the treatment of juveniles in Pinellas County for property-crime-only vehicular stuff, at least for a brief moment in their lives they get to experience some parity with how a 1%-er would be treated.
posted by XMLicious at 1:34 PM on May 6, 2017
Dude killed a cop in his Ferrari and finally might be starting to face consequences five years later. (Was in his late twenties at the time of the incident.)
So, whatever the various merits of the treatment of juveniles in Pinellas County for property-crime-only vehicular stuff, at least for a brief moment in their lives they get to experience some parity with how a 1%-er would be treated.
posted by XMLicious at 1:34 PM on May 6, 2017
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See also: gun violence in America and most cowboy movies from the 1930s on.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:54 PM on April 28, 2017 [4 favorites]