Vigilante Justice
May 2, 2017 7:44 AM Subscribe
Why I don't trust Batman. A reflection on the impact of Batman on Gotham from the people he thinks he is protecting.
I like this. We've discussed how Batman is a rich dude beating up poor dudes who's real superpower is being rich. And it makes me actually really appreciate the end of The Dark Knight Rises. After he gets rid of the bomb made from his experimental reactor, Bruce Wayne realizes that the best way he can help the city is to give almost all of his money away (keeping a comfortable $20 million to live on for the rest of his life) that can fund stuff for the city and take care of it. Getting back to the things that his father and grandfather did, when they helped build Gotham, instead of just hurting people on it's streets.
Also reminds me of the best use for Superman.
posted by Hactar at 8:02 AM on May 2, 2017 [47 favorites]
Also reminds me of the best use for Superman.
posted by Hactar at 8:02 AM on May 2, 2017 [47 favorites]
He funded your orphanage… but when you think about it, it’s pretty weird that the city needs such a large orphanage.
heh.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:06 AM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
heh.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:06 AM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
As much as I enjoy these writing experiments, it's pretty obvious that escapist works of fantasy are going to look bad in a real world context. What's Harry Potter's position on ISIS?
Currently trying to think of any superhero fiction that holds up okay... X-men maybe?
posted by Behemoth at 8:07 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Currently trying to think of any superhero fiction that holds up okay... X-men maybe?
posted by Behemoth at 8:07 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Has anyone done a reboot of Batman as Troubled Zuckerberg/Uber, But For Vigilantism? The archetype of entitled twentysomething billionaire has definitely changed over the past 60 years, and right now Silicon Valley Guy is by far the most prominent. I feel like that recontextualization would get at some of the reasons why people are uncomfortable with Batman.
posted by Copronymus at 8:12 AM on May 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 8:12 AM on May 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
the best use for Superman.
Frank Miller had that as the best use of the Flash. He thought Superman was more valuable as a propaganda tool.
In my view, Superman should probably stick to disaster relief and transporting astronauts around the near solar system.
posted by bonehead at 8:13 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Frank Miller had that as the best use of the Flash. He thought Superman was more valuable as a propaganda tool.
In my view, Superman should probably stick to disaster relief and transporting astronauts around the near solar system.
posted by bonehead at 8:13 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
What's Harry Potter's position on ISIS?
There wouldn't be ISIS, obviously, because a simple Aguamenti would have mitigated the Syrian drought that began in 2006, and so the Syrian Civil War would likely have been avoided.
Using water spells to hydrate crops (along with Lumos Solem) is the most direct way to bypass Gamp's Law of Elemental Transfiguration, which prevents conjuring food out of thin air.
This, together with coordinated Apparition to needy areas, is how Magicians solve world hunger.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:13 AM on May 2, 2017 [28 favorites]
There wouldn't be ISIS, obviously, because a simple Aguamenti would have mitigated the Syrian drought that began in 2006, and so the Syrian Civil War would likely have been avoided.
Using water spells to hydrate crops (along with Lumos Solem) is the most direct way to bypass Gamp's Law of Elemental Transfiguration, which prevents conjuring food out of thin air.
This, together with coordinated Apparition to needy areas, is how Magicians solve world hunger.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:13 AM on May 2, 2017 [28 favorites]
Currently trying to think of any superhero fiction that holds up okay... X-men maybe?
the same x-men that has repeatedly given shelter to known mutant extremist and mass murdering terrorist magneto, and even gave him charge of impressionable young minds, that x-men? the x-men headed by a mutant telepath that has no problem mucking about with people's minds?
posted by entropicamericana at 8:14 AM on May 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
the same x-men that has repeatedly given shelter to known mutant extremist and mass murdering terrorist magneto, and even gave him charge of impressionable young minds, that x-men? the x-men headed by a mutant telepath that has no problem mucking about with people's minds?
posted by entropicamericana at 8:14 AM on May 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
As much as I enjoy these writing experiments, it's pretty obvious that escapist works of fantasy are going to look bad in a real world context. What's Harry Potter's position on ISIS?
Yeah, the dork in me is straining to point out that this is basically Grimdark Movie Batman that they have a problem with (because Comics Batman puts shit tons of money into programs that benefit the poor and try to take a preventative approach to crime, has even given WayneTech jobs to convicted criminals) but this is a story about a dude whose parents died and he was really sad and angry and thought I know, I should become a ninja in a bat costume, that fixes everything and then people read that and start asking about the impact to infrastructure and city services
posted by middleclasstool at 8:14 AM on May 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
Yeah, the dork in me is straining to point out that this is basically Grimdark Movie Batman that they have a problem with (because Comics Batman puts shit tons of money into programs that benefit the poor and try to take a preventative approach to crime, has even given WayneTech jobs to convicted criminals) but this is a story about a dude whose parents died and he was really sad and angry and thought I know, I should become a ninja in a bat costume, that fixes everything and then people read that and start asking about the impact to infrastructure and city services
posted by middleclasstool at 8:14 AM on May 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
In the real world, an nth-generation billionaire who watched his parents get blown away by a criminal wouldn't go through all the physical/mental training to become a vigilante. He'd do what his billionaire friends do -- donate to tough-on-crime "law and order" candidates who'd make sure all those "bad guys" got locked up.
Real-life Batman doesn't look like a masked terror. He looks like the Koch Brothers.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:14 AM on May 2, 2017 [33 favorites]
Real-life Batman doesn't look like a masked terror. He looks like the Koch Brothers.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:14 AM on May 2, 2017 [33 favorites]
Not only is this Grimdark Movie Batman, this critique of Batman is ancient and has been done to the death in the comics, even the part about working for a villain to make ends meet.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:15 AM on May 2, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 8:15 AM on May 2, 2017 [17 favorites]
Also, on the point of "realism", when I'm a billionaire ninja vigilante, I'm going to make sure my butler disposes of my soiled, biohazard bloody bandages by carrying them in an open container through the ballroom, past potential witnesses who he knows are in there painting
posted by middleclasstool at 8:16 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by middleclasstool at 8:16 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
In a modern Gotham, with a smartphone app-based "sharing" economy, are evil henchmen considered contractors? Are they paid on W-2 or 1099; is the app available for both iOS and Android? Or does the app target the platform with more poor, more desperate people to work as henchmen, and the more expensive platform for the villian-side app? Why does the platform not allow their workers, sorry, contractors to unionize?
Who's the real villian here?
posted by fragmede at 8:20 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
Who's the real villian here?
posted by fragmede at 8:20 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
This, together with coordinated Apparition to needy areas, is how Magicians solve world hunger.
Oh, and for those of you considering the Gemino curse as an alternative approach, remember that copies are worthless, and so any food so replicated would lack nutritional sustenance.
It's a curse, not a spell.
Accio Pedantium!
posted by leotrotsky at 8:22 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Oh, and for those of you considering the Gemino curse as an alternative approach, remember that copies are worthless, and so any food so replicated would lack nutritional sustenance.
It's a curse, not a spell.
Accio Pedantium!
posted by leotrotsky at 8:22 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
First I have to build a weird car.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:25 AM on May 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:25 AM on May 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
The Gregory Brothers & The Greens have the final word on this surely.
posted by Wretch729 at 8:25 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 8:25 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, the dork in me is straining to point out that this is basically Grimdark Movie Batman that they have a problem with (because Comics Batman puts shit tons of money into programs that benefit the poor and try to take a preventative approach to crime, has even given WayneTech jobs to convicted criminals) but this is a story about a dude whose parents died and he was really sad and angry and thought I know, I should become a ninja in a bat costume, that fixes everything and then people read that and start asking about the impact to infrastructure and city services
I wonder if he wouldn't be better deploying his funds into establishing a Wayne Credit Union, providing low interest loans to Gotham residents. That way he'd get a better multiplier effect from his money and it'd go further. I bet that would probably do a better job of reducing the poverty that is the root cause of most crime.
Given the Rogues Gallery, though, better psychiatric treatment programs might also be a good idea.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:29 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I wonder if he wouldn't be better deploying his funds into establishing a Wayne Credit Union, providing low interest loans to Gotham residents. That way he'd get a better multiplier effect from his money and it'd go further. I bet that would probably do a better job of reducing the poverty that is the root cause of most crime.
Given the Rogues Gallery, though, better psychiatric treatment programs might also be a good idea.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:29 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I wonder if he wouldn't be better deploying his funds into establishing a Wayne Credit Union, providing low interest loans to Gotham residents.
Discussions like this are always frustrating and boring, because neither the original article nor most commenters seem to know much about the topic. Like, all these comments about how Batman should use his money to help the poor or build infrastructure or pay taxes: he does. In the comics the Wayne Foundation and other ventures provide enormous amounts of money and support for people in need, he has started at least two major civilian crime-prevention programs, and he routinely backs infrastructure and public works projects.
Most people seem to just know "Batman is rich" and have their pet axes to grind with that.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:31 AM on May 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
Discussions like this are always frustrating and boring, because neither the original article nor most commenters seem to know much about the topic. Like, all these comments about how Batman should use his money to help the poor or build infrastructure or pay taxes: he does. In the comics the Wayne Foundation and other ventures provide enormous amounts of money and support for people in need, he has started at least two major civilian crime-prevention programs, and he routinely backs infrastructure and public works projects.
Most people seem to just know "Batman is rich" and have their pet axes to grind with that.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:31 AM on May 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
I'm also reading the Falling Down thread from yesterday and a comment there made me think about Batman (a character who has driven me nutso since high school when people would look at me oddly for MANY reasons including my shouting stuff like "but what about CIVIL LIBERTIES? He's acting as an AGENT OF THE STATE! What gives him the right to BREAK IN to people's PROPERTY? What about DUE PROCESS?"*) in similar terms to Walter White from Breaking Bad. They are both privileged white men with legitimate grievances, both personal and systemic -- dead parents in a city that fails to protect its citizens, cancer in a society that does not provide adequate healthcare even if you've done everything "right" -- who react by adopting outsized secret identities to break the law and claim it's for someone else's good. You can't tell me Batman doesn't effing enjoy the fuck out of being Batman just as Walter White FINALLY admitted to Skyler that he did the whole Heisenberg thing for himself. In both cases, while their suffering is absolutely real, the choice they make is to use it as an excuse to act out outlandish fantasies instead of making an actual effort to support those they are purporting to help.
*This is why I was always a bigger fan of Spiderman; "with great power comes great responsibility" so he has a moral imperative to protect people and do what's right whereas Batman is just a rich asshole.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:31 AM on May 2, 2017 [18 favorites]
*This is why I was always a bigger fan of Spiderman; "with great power comes great responsibility" so he has a moral imperative to protect people and do what's right whereas Batman is just a rich asshole.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:31 AM on May 2, 2017 [18 favorites]
Has anyone done a reboot of Batman as Troubled Zuckerberg/Uber, But For Vigilantism?
Yeah, he's called Tony Stark.
Although, in Kingdom Come, Bats used an army of robots to patrol the city. Given Uber's reach towards self-driving cars, I think that's pretty close.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:36 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Yeah, he's called Tony Stark.
Although, in Kingdom Come, Bats used an army of robots to patrol the city. Given Uber's reach towards self-driving cars, I think that's pretty close.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:36 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Watchmen holds up, but that's largely because it makes the case that superheroes really wouldn't work. You've got one who's flat-out bugfuck crazy (Batman without the money), one who quit when the government said that vigilantes were breaking the law (Batman without the childhood trauma), one who's basically a black-ops guy for Nixon, one who was only a superhero because her mom told her to be, one who was smart enough to cash in on the merchandising, and one who stopped caring about people once he'd transcended humanity. The rest are basically cosplayers: "friendly, middle-aged men who like to dress up", in Dr. Manhattan's words.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:38 AM on May 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:38 AM on May 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
The economics of crime in Gotham
(my most underrated comment ever)
posted by zippy at 8:49 AM on May 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
(my most underrated comment ever)
posted by zippy at 8:49 AM on May 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
What I totally do not get is how anyone takes the mathematics of hello kitty seriously. The same with any but the very best political comics, there is no there there, anything verging on profound is the same as developing a new medicine from the swirls of a Pollock print. Well also excepting xkcd under 300.
I have no idea what "the mathematics of hello kitty" means or even whether or not this comment was accidentally posted in this thread by mistake, but I am intrigued.
posted by straight at 8:53 AM on May 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
I have no idea what "the mathematics of hello kitty" means or even whether or not this comment was accidentally posted in this thread by mistake, but I am intrigued.
posted by straight at 8:53 AM on May 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
Gotham Central was a pretty interesting revisionist take on Batman
posted by thelonius at 8:56 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 8:56 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I mean I assume gotham city's job market is like 40% goon or henchman related
posted by The Whelk at 8:57 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:57 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Tarnished Angel by Busiek, Ross and Anderson, the story of Steeljack in Astro City, is, in my view the definitive take on how villains see heroes and their place in the world. The Confessor (Busiek's Batman analog) isn't part of it, but his take on Spider-man and the JLA/Avengers is.
posted by bonehead at 8:58 AM on May 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 8:58 AM on May 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
So I was listening to the Ben Shapiro show the other day... Seriously, I made a new year's agreement with one of my republican friends. They listen to the Ezra Klein show, I listen to 1 Ben Shapiro a week. It's fine, I understand other people's' opinions a bit better now.
Anyway, Ben Shapiro is a big republican. Very religious, pro-life/anti-choice, I pulled myself up by the bootstraps all by myself not like those lazy people republican. Within those constraints he's a nice enough guy.
He casually mentioned that he loved All-Star Batman, the Frank Miller answer to the pretty darn good All Star Superman. I remember the series getting less than stellar reviews so I'd never read it. Based on Ben Shapiro's recommendation I acquired the series and holy hell is it terrible. This forced me to go back and read The Dark Knight Returns. HOLY HELL, it's awful too. Not nearly as bad as All Star Batman, but fairly crap. It's such a New York in the 1980s meet Police Academy/Robo Cop/ Trump's view of inner cities sort of perspective. It's strange how some people's views haven't evolved since the 1980s. (Or since earlier.)
I knew Frank Miller has some unsavoury views of the world, but they sort of passed over my head when I was 13. What really stuck out at me was the references to Bruce Wayne forcing himself to eat rats/bats in order to toughen himself up. That's straight out of the G. Gordon Liddy autobiography. It's hard not to dislike batman when seen through Miller's eyes. Also, every other person living in Miller's Gotham is a mugger/rapist. They're just standing around the docks waiting to attack people.
What really strikes me is that big world comic books are terrible. Either write a story where there are no other superheros or go Top Ten/Astro City style and just make everybody a superhero. These bloated, expanded worlds with crossovers and regional teams and mutants/science heroes/magic/aliens/deities are just so boring now because they don't make any sense. It's like reading the old Superman comics when he's fighting a villain with trick javelins or the powers of a dog or whatever. This guy in nearly omnipotent and he's foiling muggers? It doesn't scale up. I don't know how Marvel and DC can continue to make money on their main series. I think readers are too sophisticated to be satisfied with classic superhero stories. It's too difficult not to think, "If Bruce Wayne has all this technology, why doesn't he share it?". I just feel that since Watchmen, The Authority, Planetary, Powers etc have deconstructed superheroes in such interesting ways that there's very little interesting to say about the classic characters.
posted by Telf at 8:58 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Anyway, Ben Shapiro is a big republican. Very religious, pro-life/anti-choice, I pulled myself up by the bootstraps all by myself not like those lazy people republican. Within those constraints he's a nice enough guy.
He casually mentioned that he loved All-Star Batman, the Frank Miller answer to the pretty darn good All Star Superman. I remember the series getting less than stellar reviews so I'd never read it. Based on Ben Shapiro's recommendation I acquired the series and holy hell is it terrible. This forced me to go back and read The Dark Knight Returns. HOLY HELL, it's awful too. Not nearly as bad as All Star Batman, but fairly crap. It's such a New York in the 1980s meet Police Academy/Robo Cop/ Trump's view of inner cities sort of perspective. It's strange how some people's views haven't evolved since the 1980s. (Or since earlier.)
I knew Frank Miller has some unsavoury views of the world, but they sort of passed over my head when I was 13. What really stuck out at me was the references to Bruce Wayne forcing himself to eat rats/bats in order to toughen himself up. That's straight out of the G. Gordon Liddy autobiography. It's hard not to dislike batman when seen through Miller's eyes. Also, every other person living in Miller's Gotham is a mugger/rapist. They're just standing around the docks waiting to attack people.
What really strikes me is that big world comic books are terrible. Either write a story where there are no other superheros or go Top Ten/Astro City style and just make everybody a superhero. These bloated, expanded worlds with crossovers and regional teams and mutants/science heroes/magic/aliens/deities are just so boring now because they don't make any sense. It's like reading the old Superman comics when he's fighting a villain with trick javelins or the powers of a dog or whatever. This guy in nearly omnipotent and he's foiling muggers? It doesn't scale up. I don't know how Marvel and DC can continue to make money on their main series. I think readers are too sophisticated to be satisfied with classic superhero stories. It's too difficult not to think, "If Bruce Wayne has all this technology, why doesn't he share it?". I just feel that since Watchmen, The Authority, Planetary, Powers etc have deconstructed superheroes in such interesting ways that there's very little interesting to say about the classic characters.
posted by Telf at 8:58 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
I mean I assume gotham city's job market is like 40% goon or henchman related
goonr - a disruptive app for hiring "aggressive labor" (who show up wearing red and white and since Sunday, won't look you in the eye)
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:00 AM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
goonr - a disruptive app for hiring "aggressive labor" (who show up wearing red and white and since Sunday, won't look you in the eye)
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:00 AM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
I mean I assume gotham city's job market is like 40% goon or henchman related
That's basically the same as assuming, based on the movies, that the Avengers never poop.
posted by straight at 9:00 AM on May 2, 2017
That's basically the same as assuming, based on the movies, that the Avengers never poop.
posted by straight at 9:00 AM on May 2, 2017
You also need to take into account that Gotham is a machine designed to make Batman created by the demon Barbatos to free itself from the basement where it was accidentally trapped during an aborted summoning ritual in the 18th century, though the demon was actually the Hyper-Adapter, a living Apokoliptian weapon sent by Darkseid to hunt Batman's time-displaced consciousness across history.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:08 AM on May 2, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 9:08 AM on May 2, 2017 [26 favorites]
Gotham is a machine designed to make Batman created by the demon Barbatos ...
lemme guess, grant morrison?
posted by entropicamericana at 9:11 AM on May 2, 2017 [13 favorites]
lemme guess, grant morrison?
posted by entropicamericana at 9:11 AM on May 2, 2017 [13 favorites]
The thing is that we have a real world mainstream political position that thinks we'd be better off with unaccountable, extralegal, violent enforcement of the law, and replacing social services with charity.
posted by idiopath at 9:11 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 9:11 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
lemme guess, grant morrison?
Yes and no. Morrison used the idea in his run, but it was introduced in Peter Milligan, Kieron Dwyer, Dennis Janke, and Adrienne Roy’s 1990 story “Dark Knight, Dark City,” which took place in Batman #452-454.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:17 AM on May 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
Yes and no. Morrison used the idea in his run, but it was introduced in Peter Milligan, Kieron Dwyer, Dennis Janke, and Adrienne Roy’s 1990 story “Dark Knight, Dark City,” which took place in Batman #452-454.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:17 AM on May 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
Ahhhhhhh! This is by Sarah Gailey, who:
1) Has a book coming out later this month, River of Teeth. It looks awesome.
2) Was Hugo nominated in 2015 for "best related work" for her livetweeting of her virgin watch of the original Star Wars Trilogy (Episode: 4, 5, 6)
3) I literally just realized in the past couple of weeks, I dated briefly years ago. That's a weird fucking thing to figure out when you're in the middle of fanboying, let me tell you.
posted by Myca at 9:19 AM on May 2, 2017 [20 favorites]
1) Has a book coming out later this month, River of Teeth. It looks awesome.
2) Was Hugo nominated in 2015 for "best related work" for her livetweeting of her virgin watch of the original Star Wars Trilogy (Episode: 4, 5, 6)
3) I literally just realized in the past couple of weeks, I dated briefly years ago. That's a weird fucking thing to figure out when you're in the middle of fanboying, let me tell you.
posted by Myca at 9:19 AM on May 2, 2017 [20 favorites]
Also, every other person living in Miller's Gotham is a mugger/rapist. They're just standing around the docks waiting to attack people.
This and Miller's fetishizing of vigilantes are easy to explain when you learn that dude got mugged a lot in NYC. Everything from Daredevil to Batman to the Spartans is likely going to be of interest to a comics guy who was repeatedly left feeling powerless and abused by evil men with guns and/or knives. Then 9/11 happened and he dug in harder, expanding his hate outwards from everyday villains to Muslims (Islamists, he would probably argue, but dude needs to be sure to cast a wide enough net to catch all the bad guys, right?).
So much of Miller's work comes from a place of fear and powerlessness and the resentment that they give birth to. A need to see the tables turned. A need to see the right people pay.
I lost about two years of my life to an extremely skewed perspective in which I only gave a shit about my own fears and regrets and resentments. I was lucky enough to find a way out of that, and I consider it top priority that I never go back. Every now and then I re-read DKR to remind myself never to let my fear overcome my empathy. Never to let myself turn into that.
posted by middleclasstool at 9:19 AM on May 2, 2017 [27 favorites]
This and Miller's fetishizing of vigilantes are easy to explain when you learn that dude got mugged a lot in NYC. Everything from Daredevil to Batman to the Spartans is likely going to be of interest to a comics guy who was repeatedly left feeling powerless and abused by evil men with guns and/or knives. Then 9/11 happened and he dug in harder, expanding his hate outwards from everyday villains to Muslims (Islamists, he would probably argue, but dude needs to be sure to cast a wide enough net to catch all the bad guys, right?).
So much of Miller's work comes from a place of fear and powerlessness and the resentment that they give birth to. A need to see the tables turned. A need to see the right people pay.
I lost about two years of my life to an extremely skewed perspective in which I only gave a shit about my own fears and regrets and resentments. I was lucky enough to find a way out of that, and I consider it top priority that I never go back. Every now and then I re-read DKR to remind myself never to let my fear overcome my empathy. Never to let myself turn into that.
posted by middleclasstool at 9:19 AM on May 2, 2017 [27 favorites]
I did not know that about Miller getting mugged in NYC. Ok, that makes so much more sense. What an origin story!
Glad to hear you found a way out of that sort of narrative.
posted by Telf at 9:27 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Glad to hear you found a way out of that sort of narrative.
posted by Telf at 9:27 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter: a villain with trick javelins or the powers of a dog or whatever
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:30 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:30 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Huh, so there's a line connecting Frank Miller and Bernie Goetz, in a way.
I liked the OP. I was never drawn to Batman as a kid, and to this day the only Batman I've really enjoyed is Will Arnett's. It surprises me to see it suggested here that analyzing and retelling the Batman myth is a waste of time, when it's one of the most enduring popular fantasies of wealth and revenge in the last half-century. You can say her critique isn't original, but it's certainly worth making.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:44 AM on May 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
I liked the OP. I was never drawn to Batman as a kid, and to this day the only Batman I've really enjoyed is Will Arnett's. It surprises me to see it suggested here that analyzing and retelling the Batman myth is a waste of time, when it's one of the most enduring popular fantasies of wealth and revenge in the last half-century. You can say her critique isn't original, but it's certainly worth making.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:44 AM on May 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Comics Batman puts shit tons of money into programs that benefit the poor and try to take a preventative approach to crime
That is in itself a problem. We're being told that the best solution to the city's social problems is individual benevolence. If Gotham had a large inheritance tax it could pay for it's own orphanage, and Batman could still afford a cool car.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:45 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
That is in itself a problem. We're being told that the best solution to the city's social problems is individual benevolence. If Gotham had a large inheritance tax it could pay for it's own orphanage, and Batman could still afford a cool car.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:45 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
The economics of crime in Gotham
(my most underrated comment ever)
In which you were riffing on my most underrated comment ever, zippy!
posted by randomkeystrike at 9:53 AM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
(my most underrated comment ever)
In which you were riffing on my most underrated comment ever, zippy!
posted by randomkeystrike at 9:53 AM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is one of the reasons I like Gotham on Fox so much: it realizes how insanely, ludicrously stupid the premise of Batman is, and leans into it. A lot like the 60s TV show, but with rocket launchers, kung-fu fights, and all the other glorious Batman nuttery. It also focuses on the truly interesting part of Batman (which the FPP touches on too): the villains.
posted by codacorolla at 9:54 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 9:54 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
But he’ll probably know how to fix broken lamps for pennies an hour, or how to sew underpants for even less.
I know of another fictional prison that has those two jobs. Orange is the new Bat?
I liked the article, but it does seem to deal mostly with movie Batman and specifically more recent movie Batman. I've always preferred comics Batman or if it must be a movie it's either Burton or '66. I enjoyed the Nolan movies as action movies but they weren't my idea of who Batman is and that's what this article seems to be working from almost entirely.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 9:55 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I know of another fictional prison that has those two jobs. Orange is the new Bat?
I liked the article, but it does seem to deal mostly with movie Batman and specifically more recent movie Batman. I've always preferred comics Batman or if it must be a movie it's either Burton or '66. I enjoyed the Nolan movies as action movies but they weren't my idea of who Batman is and that's what this article seems to be working from almost entirely.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 9:55 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
If anyone is going to end up with a Batman complex, it is Elon Musk.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:09 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:09 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Discussions like this are always frustrating and boring, because neither the original article nor most commenters seem to know much about the topic. Like, all these comments about how Batman should use his money to help the poor or build infrastructure or pay taxes: he does. In the comics the Wayne Foundation and other ventures provide enormous amounts of money and support for people in need, he has started at least two major civilian crime-prevention programs, and he routinely backs infrastructure and public works projects.
Most people seem to just know "Batman is rich" and have their pet axes to grind with that.
I don't think that invalidates the point of view of her character, though, who in the story seems to be developing an awareness of the underlying narcissistic cycle driving Gotham. I mean, I'm not a comics guy, but I thought that was the whole point of Batman:
Bruce Wayne's wealth allows him to pay for the attention he wants (and can't get from his parents, naturally) via parties and philanthropy. At the same time, he's angry and alone, and has no healthy way to cope with this, so he exorcises those demons via "crime fighting".
Trouble is, his vigilantism creates and perpetuates mechanisms (infrastructure damage, broken homes, an ever-increasing income gap, law enforcement without oversight or boundaries, and an ongoing provocation of the criminal element that demonstrably breeds an atypical level of terroristic intentions and activities) that increase both his own income and the apparent need for his ongoing philanthropy and vigilantism.
If you break that cycle, you end up with a wealthy guy who has to accept that he can't control everything, and that he's a normal person dealing with a traumatizing experience. He'll need to go into therapy and learn to cope.
In theory, he could break the cycle by knocking off the Batman thing, using his influence and money to push for a transparent, community-oriented government focused on prevention, outreach and rehabilitation, stopped the conspicuous consumption, created more affordable housing on his properties, and beyond that simply carried on with his existing philanthropy.
That wouldn't get him what he wants, though, which is the ability to continue being an amazing narcissist. Wouldn't you love to have everyone love you, and tell you so all the time, except for those people who are absolutely evil and wrong (and who coincidentally happen to be the only ones telling you you're not wonderful.)
posted by davejay at 10:16 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Most people seem to just know "Batman is rich" and have their pet axes to grind with that.
I don't think that invalidates the point of view of her character, though, who in the story seems to be developing an awareness of the underlying narcissistic cycle driving Gotham. I mean, I'm not a comics guy, but I thought that was the whole point of Batman:
Bruce Wayne's wealth allows him to pay for the attention he wants (and can't get from his parents, naturally) via parties and philanthropy. At the same time, he's angry and alone, and has no healthy way to cope with this, so he exorcises those demons via "crime fighting".
Trouble is, his vigilantism creates and perpetuates mechanisms (infrastructure damage, broken homes, an ever-increasing income gap, law enforcement without oversight or boundaries, and an ongoing provocation of the criminal element that demonstrably breeds an atypical level of terroristic intentions and activities) that increase both his own income and the apparent need for his ongoing philanthropy and vigilantism.
If you break that cycle, you end up with a wealthy guy who has to accept that he can't control everything, and that he's a normal person dealing with a traumatizing experience. He'll need to go into therapy and learn to cope.
In theory, he could break the cycle by knocking off the Batman thing, using his influence and money to push for a transparent, community-oriented government focused on prevention, outreach and rehabilitation, stopped the conspicuous consumption, created more affordable housing on his properties, and beyond that simply carried on with his existing philanthropy.
That wouldn't get him what he wants, though, which is the ability to continue being an amazing narcissist. Wouldn't you love to have everyone love you, and tell you so all the time, except for those people who are absolutely evil and wrong (and who coincidentally happen to be the only ones telling you you're not wonderful.)
posted by davejay at 10:16 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
1) Has a book coming out later this month, River of Teeth. It looks awesome.
Holy shit, this is about Man Vs Hippo. Instant pre-order for my library.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:16 AM on May 2, 2017
Holy shit, this is about Man Vs Hippo. Instant pre-order for my library.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:16 AM on May 2, 2017
It surprises me to see it suggested here that analyzing and retelling the Batman myth is a waste of time
But no one is saying that. What's being said is the opposite: the Batman myth has been analyzed and retold in countless ways over and over again.
You can say her critique isn't original, but it's certainly worth making
It is, but the thing is it already *has* been made, and rebutted, and counter-rebutted, many times. Yet people unfamiliar with all this lee trotting it put as if they're revealing some brilliant insight, and then the topic is discussed without any knowledge of the subject, as seen with people asking over and over and making jokes about why the character doesn't do things he's been doing for decades.
For example:
We're being told that the best solution to the city's social problems is individual benevolence
No, we aren't. Bateman is never presented as the best solution, nor is Bruce Wayne's charity presented as the best way to help the city. There are countless examples of this in the comics. Rather, they're presented as necessary paths in a place that is hopelessly corrupt. The city isn't developing infrastructure or the like because the government is bought and paid for. Wayne as both Batman and Bruce has often longed for a better situation and better options.
using his influence and money to push for a transparent, community-oriented government focused on prevention, outreach and rehabilitation, stopped the conspicuous consumption, created more affordable housing on his properties, and beyond that simply carried on with his existing philanthropy.
Again, the flawed premise is that he doesn't already do all of these things and more.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:18 AM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
But no one is saying that. What's being said is the opposite: the Batman myth has been analyzed and retold in countless ways over and over again.
You can say her critique isn't original, but it's certainly worth making
It is, but the thing is it already *has* been made, and rebutted, and counter-rebutted, many times. Yet people unfamiliar with all this lee trotting it put as if they're revealing some brilliant insight, and then the topic is discussed without any knowledge of the subject, as seen with people asking over and over and making jokes about why the character doesn't do things he's been doing for decades.
For example:
We're being told that the best solution to the city's social problems is individual benevolence
No, we aren't. Bateman is never presented as the best solution, nor is Bruce Wayne's charity presented as the best way to help the city. There are countless examples of this in the comics. Rather, they're presented as necessary paths in a place that is hopelessly corrupt. The city isn't developing infrastructure or the like because the government is bought and paid for. Wayne as both Batman and Bruce has often longed for a better situation and better options.
using his influence and money to push for a transparent, community-oriented government focused on prevention, outreach and rehabilitation, stopped the conspicuous consumption, created more affordable housing on his properties, and beyond that simply carried on with his existing philanthropy.
Again, the flawed premise is that he doesn't already do all of these things and more.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:18 AM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Comics Batman puts shit tons of money into programs that benefit the poor and try to take a preventative approach to crime
Its not just putting money into these programs, he tries to be an all-around solid corporate citizen. During the Cataclysm/No Man's Land arcs there is a huge earthquake that levels much of Gotham, with the notable exception of buildings built by Bruce Waybe because it turns out that Bruce Wayne is the only property developer in Gotham who actually bothers to make earthquake-proof buildings. I don't remember if it was explained that this was because all the other buildings weren't built to code and they just paid off the inspectors or that the others were built to code and Bruce Wayne just built to a higher standard.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:19 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Its not just putting money into these programs, he tries to be an all-around solid corporate citizen. During the Cataclysm/No Man's Land arcs there is a huge earthquake that levels much of Gotham, with the notable exception of buildings built by Bruce Waybe because it turns out that Bruce Wayne is the only property developer in Gotham who actually bothers to make earthquake-proof buildings. I don't remember if it was explained that this was because all the other buildings weren't built to code and they just paid off the inspectors or that the others were built to code and Bruce Wayne just built to a higher standard.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:19 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
In the comics the Wayne Foundation and other ventures provide enormous amounts of money and support for people in need, he has started at least two major civilian crime-prevention programs, and he routinely backs infrastructure and public works projects.
Most people seem to just know "Batman is rich" and have their pet axes to grind with that.
I just don't know if he's deploying that capital efficiently. Metropolis, Midway City, and Star City don't have nearly the same urban crime and corruption problems as Gotham.
I mean, I know it's in New Jersey, but still.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:21 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Most people seem to just know "Batman is rich" and have their pet axes to grind with that.
I just don't know if he's deploying that capital efficiently. Metropolis, Midway City, and Star City don't have nearly the same urban crime and corruption problems as Gotham.
I mean, I know it's in New Jersey, but still.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:21 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
It surprises me to see it suggested here that analyzing and retelling the Batman myth is a waste of time, when it's one of the most enduring popular fantasies of wealth and revenge in the last half-century.
As the Batman story is cyclical, so is this particular critique of that story -- it's not that this was not well-done, but there's going to be a natural gap between people who have seen a dozen Batman "reboots"* throughout their lives, and a dozen-plus variants of the "well here's a completely original take on this through the lens of a minor villain" critique, and people to whom this is a new, fresh, insightful way of looking at the archetype.
After a while, it's like jazz -- somebody is going to serve up "My Funny Valentine" again at some point soon, and I won't be listening for the tune, I'll be listening for the flourishes. I liked this piece; it was compact, well-written, and the mounting resentment/awareness/not-quite-awareness paralleling Batman and Wayne was great.
*Now I'm wondering... here are my Batmen, through the years... no particular order
- grew up with Denny O'Neil "hairy-chested love god" Batman
- Batman Family era Batman
- Adam West TV Batman
- Frank Miller Dark Knight Returns Batman
- Aparo post-Robin grim Batman
- Nightfall/post-Wayne/kinda shit Batman
- Morrison groovy/crazy Batman
- Adult revisiting of classic original Batman stories
- Batman: TAS Batman
- Batman Beyond
- Batman: The Brave and the Bold
- Tim Burton Batman
- Schumacher Batman, technically a continuation but I'd argue a separate dealio
- Nolan Batman
Not all are "reboots," but they're all distinct spins, and this is a completely off-the-cuff list without much thought put into it. It's pretty amazing how resilient Batman is.
posted by Shepherd at 10:22 AM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
As the Batman story is cyclical, so is this particular critique of that story -- it's not that this was not well-done, but there's going to be a natural gap between people who have seen a dozen Batman "reboots"* throughout their lives, and a dozen-plus variants of the "well here's a completely original take on this through the lens of a minor villain" critique, and people to whom this is a new, fresh, insightful way of looking at the archetype.
After a while, it's like jazz -- somebody is going to serve up "My Funny Valentine" again at some point soon, and I won't be listening for the tune, I'll be listening for the flourishes. I liked this piece; it was compact, well-written, and the mounting resentment/awareness/not-quite-awareness paralleling Batman and Wayne was great.
*Now I'm wondering... here are my Batmen, through the years... no particular order
- grew up with Denny O'Neil "hairy-chested love god" Batman
- Batman Family era Batman
- Adam West TV Batman
- Frank Miller Dark Knight Returns Batman
- Aparo post-Robin grim Batman
- Nightfall/post-Wayne/kinda shit Batman
- Morrison groovy/crazy Batman
- Adult revisiting of classic original Batman stories
- Batman: TAS Batman
- Batman Beyond
- Batman: The Brave and the Bold
- Tim Burton Batman
- Schumacher Batman, technically a continuation but I'd argue a separate dealio
- Nolan Batman
Not all are "reboots," but they're all distinct spins, and this is a completely off-the-cuff list without much thought put into it. It's pretty amazing how resilient Batman is.
posted by Shepherd at 10:22 AM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
#notallbats
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:33 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:33 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
It is, but the thing is it already *has* been made, and rebutted, and counter-rebutted, many times. Yet people unfamiliar with all this lee trotting it put as if they're revealing some brilliant insight, and then the topic is discussed without any knowledge of the subject, as seen with people asking over and over and making jokes about why the character doesn't do things he's been doing for decades.
This isn't an uncommon problem. I see two things going on here; one is akin to the concept of Kirk Drift, which is basically saying that the received understanding and perception of something from pop culture may actually be quite different from the source. Here we have the image of Batman/Wayne as the brooding rich guy who isn't using his most powerful resource - wealth - to really address the issue he professes to care about.
The second is the fact that we live in a world where people are constantly learning and being exposed to/developing ideas and things that are new for "them", but not necessarily for "us"; rather than getting frustrated about it, I'm trying to see it as a chance to be excited. Excited that someone else is thinking about this stuff, that they enjoy it at a level that encourages them to do so, that they want to explore it in depth. That's awesome. And it may also be that the author isn't unaware of the fact that this angle has been tackled before, but she felt she had something new to say or bring to the discussion. People are free to agree or disagree, engage or not engage with things like this.
posted by nubs at 10:37 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
This isn't an uncommon problem. I see two things going on here; one is akin to the concept of Kirk Drift, which is basically saying that the received understanding and perception of something from pop culture may actually be quite different from the source. Here we have the image of Batman/Wayne as the brooding rich guy who isn't using his most powerful resource - wealth - to really address the issue he professes to care about.
The second is the fact that we live in a world where people are constantly learning and being exposed to/developing ideas and things that are new for "them", but not necessarily for "us"; rather than getting frustrated about it, I'm trying to see it as a chance to be excited. Excited that someone else is thinking about this stuff, that they enjoy it at a level that encourages them to do so, that they want to explore it in depth. That's awesome. And it may also be that the author isn't unaware of the fact that this angle has been tackled before, but she felt she had something new to say or bring to the discussion. People are free to agree or disagree, engage or not engage with things like this.
posted by nubs at 10:37 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
I liked this.
It's good to tell wish fulfillment stories. Batman has lasted so very long because the ideas underlying the story have lasting appeal for a variety of reasons, some good, some very problematic. He's an enduring idea because most of us can relate to him on some level.
However, critiquing those stories is a healthy part of the process that should last exactly as long as the stories do, if not outlive them. Thinking about the implications of what we want and feel is *good*. It's not tired, it's not boring, it's a healthy part of the process of engaging with wish fulfillment because that's a part of dealing with the feelings that draw us to these stories in the first place.
The second is the fact that we live in a world where people are constantly learning and being exposed to/developing ideas and things that are new for "them", but not necessarily for "us"; rather than getting frustrated about it, I'm trying to see it as a chance to be excited. Excited that someone else is thinking about this stuff, that they enjoy it at a level that encourages them to do so, that they want to explore it in depth. That's awesome.
Yeah, this.
Also, I think that the bits of Batman lore that are most prevalent in the pop culture version, regardless of canon, have stuck the most because they're the parts that have the most resonance with people. That means those are the parts that are the most important to engage with, not dismiss because of Detective Comics #17-123 or whatever.
(I'd say the same thing about Kirk, even though Kirk Drift irritates me - the idea that the hero should be a womanizer has stuck even though it wasn't canon because that's how people view the White Male Lead, and that's an idea that's good to engage with even though it isn't, strictly speaking, true in the source material.
The idea of Batman as the Brooding Loner One Man Judge Jury and sorta-Executioner have stuck regardless of what's been done in the comics, so those ideas are good to engage with regardless of canon.)
posted by mordax at 10:48 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's good to tell wish fulfillment stories. Batman has lasted so very long because the ideas underlying the story have lasting appeal for a variety of reasons, some good, some very problematic. He's an enduring idea because most of us can relate to him on some level.
However, critiquing those stories is a healthy part of the process that should last exactly as long as the stories do, if not outlive them. Thinking about the implications of what we want and feel is *good*. It's not tired, it's not boring, it's a healthy part of the process of engaging with wish fulfillment because that's a part of dealing with the feelings that draw us to these stories in the first place.
The second is the fact that we live in a world where people are constantly learning and being exposed to/developing ideas and things that are new for "them", but not necessarily for "us"; rather than getting frustrated about it, I'm trying to see it as a chance to be excited. Excited that someone else is thinking about this stuff, that they enjoy it at a level that encourages them to do so, that they want to explore it in depth. That's awesome.
Yeah, this.
Also, I think that the bits of Batman lore that are most prevalent in the pop culture version, regardless of canon, have stuck the most because they're the parts that have the most resonance with people. That means those are the parts that are the most important to engage with, not dismiss because of Detective Comics #17-123 or whatever.
(I'd say the same thing about Kirk, even though Kirk Drift irritates me - the idea that the hero should be a womanizer has stuck even though it wasn't canon because that's how people view the White Male Lead, and that's an idea that's good to engage with even though it isn't, strictly speaking, true in the source material.
The idea of Batman as the Brooding Loner One Man Judge Jury and sorta-Executioner have stuck regardless of what's been done in the comics, so those ideas are good to engage with regardless of canon.)
posted by mordax at 10:48 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
The idea that Batman is himself loopy, or dangerous, or somehow produces the villains who terrorize Gotham, is pretty much lampshaded in the Arkham games.
Batman doesn't make a lick of sense, but you can apply the same deconstruction to Miss Marple... is England so ridden with horrible murders that an old lady can find one in basically every little town she spends a week in?
posted by zompist at 10:55 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Batman doesn't make a lick of sense, but you can apply the same deconstruction to Miss Marple... is England so ridden with horrible murders that an old lady can find one in basically every little town she spends a week in?
posted by zompist at 10:55 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
“Oh this is just a response to movie Batman” is sort of a silly objection to this piece— for many people, movie Batman is the only Batman they know much about. Writing cultural critiques about cultural texts is not a waste of time. People still care about the Iliad, and they still write about adaptations of it that reflect cultural biases of the present. “This has been done before” is absurd.
Also, sign me up as another person who is team “Bruce Wayne w/therapy would be helping a lot more people”. I mean, I love Batman stories and I think they are fun, but part of why I think they are fun is because they are about a dude who took his maladaptive daydreaming response to PTSD and threw a lot of money at them to make them real.
I would love more AUs where Bruce Wayne travels to alternate timelines where Bruce Wayne made better choices and helped turn Gotham from a grimdark breeding ground for super villains into a flourishing urban center for education and the arts.
It is kind of bizarre for me to see people getting defensive over his charity work here. Gotham being a semi-terrible place to live is sort of central to a lot of the comics. “Evil people give money to charity for show” is also a constant trope that comes up in the comics. "Why does this city stay consistently terrible despite all the charity" is, and remains, a fair question, not only about Gotham, but all of our real life urban centers where billionaires throw charity galas but kids are still going hungry and getting killed by cops.
I also think there is a sub-critique here about the difference between Giuliani’s NYC and De Blasio’s, about the limits of justice based on retributive violence, about the fundamental brokenness of a justice system that intentionally disenfranchises and impoverishes entire populations, about the narratives of violence that are used themselves as weapons when the rich and powerful want to claim leverage for themselves even when crime statistics directly contradict their claims, and more. The critique that is written today is different than the critique written in the 1980s.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:57 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Also, sign me up as another person who is team “Bruce Wayne w/therapy would be helping a lot more people”. I mean, I love Batman stories and I think they are fun, but part of why I think they are fun is because they are about a dude who took his maladaptive daydreaming response to PTSD and threw a lot of money at them to make them real.
I would love more AUs where Bruce Wayne travels to alternate timelines where Bruce Wayne made better choices and helped turn Gotham from a grimdark breeding ground for super villains into a flourishing urban center for education and the arts.
It is kind of bizarre for me to see people getting defensive over his charity work here. Gotham being a semi-terrible place to live is sort of central to a lot of the comics. “Evil people give money to charity for show” is also a constant trope that comes up in the comics. "Why does this city stay consistently terrible despite all the charity" is, and remains, a fair question, not only about Gotham, but all of our real life urban centers where billionaires throw charity galas but kids are still going hungry and getting killed by cops.
I also think there is a sub-critique here about the difference between Giuliani’s NYC and De Blasio’s, about the limits of justice based on retributive violence, about the fundamental brokenness of a justice system that intentionally disenfranchises and impoverishes entire populations, about the narratives of violence that are used themselves as weapons when the rich and powerful want to claim leverage for themselves even when crime statistics directly contradict their claims, and more. The critique that is written today is different than the critique written in the 1980s.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:57 AM on May 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Wait, how do you forget someone you dated? Are you Mick Jagger?
posted by valkane at 11:00 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by valkane at 11:00 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Ugh, you guys claim that you believe in facts and data, but I see you're just as willing to ignore research when it doesn't fit your personal opinions. Face it, study after study has shown that towns where the rich people dress up as animals and wander around all night have a sharp decrease in criminal activity.
The data indicates that accounting fraud goes down by as much as 52%! Mortgage fraud down 43%! Polluting violations down 26%! Securities fraud down 60%! Insider trading goes down by an astonishing 87%!
I can think of few better ways to fight crime than encouraging rich people to dress as animals and spend as much waking time as possible outside of business hours.
posted by kyrademon at 11:04 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
The data indicates that accounting fraud goes down by as much as 52%! Mortgage fraud down 43%! Polluting violations down 26%! Securities fraud down 60%! Insider trading goes down by an astonishing 87%!
I can think of few better ways to fight crime than encouraging rich people to dress as animals and spend as much waking time as possible outside of business hours.
posted by kyrademon at 11:04 AM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
The Batman I've seen makes most sense as a fantasy for bullied boys: a lonely guy gets endless money, conveniently dead parents, a cool place, cool car, cool clothes, and the strength to punch out mocking meanies who just will not stop tormenting him. All the rest is a thin layer of icing on a big, fat, weird Batcake.
posted by pracowity at 11:06 AM on May 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 11:06 AM on May 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Currently trying to think of any superhero fiction that holds up okay... X-men maybe?
The first ten years (or so) of Spiderman holds up really well, and Spiderman / Peter Parker has the self-awareness to frequently ask himself: "What the hell am I doing?" Being a vigilante is fun and a nice escape from his sad sack real life, but it's ruining his relationships. Making Aunt May's heart condition worse. Interfering with his academic goals, and nearly costing him his scholarship. The city doesn't want his help nor do they trust him. And being a superhero means his real life identity is frozen so he can protect his secret identity. Making it impossible to completely leave behind his awkwardness to his friends and co-workers, despite maturing personally.
I'm currently going through the full run of Amazing Spider-Man on Marvel Unlimited, and I was a little surprised how much Stan Lee & Company get into the daily stresses of being a superhero, and how grounded they make the character. The '63-73(-ish) run is basically Charlie Brown got bitten by a radioactive spider.
posted by honestcoyote at 11:08 AM on May 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
The first ten years (or so) of Spiderman holds up really well, and Spiderman / Peter Parker has the self-awareness to frequently ask himself: "What the hell am I doing?" Being a vigilante is fun and a nice escape from his sad sack real life, but it's ruining his relationships. Making Aunt May's heart condition worse. Interfering with his academic goals, and nearly costing him his scholarship. The city doesn't want his help nor do they trust him. And being a superhero means his real life identity is frozen so he can protect his secret identity. Making it impossible to completely leave behind his awkwardness to his friends and co-workers, despite maturing personally.
I'm currently going through the full run of Amazing Spider-Man on Marvel Unlimited, and I was a little surprised how much Stan Lee & Company get into the daily stresses of being a superhero, and how grounded they make the character. The '63-73(-ish) run is basically Charlie Brown got bitten by a radioactive spider.
posted by honestcoyote at 11:08 AM on May 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
is England so ridden with horrible murders that an old lady can find one in basically every little town she spends a week in?
Absolutely yes.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:11 AM on May 2, 2017 [13 favorites]
Absolutely yes.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:11 AM on May 2, 2017 [13 favorites]
is England so ridden with horrible murders that an old lady can find one in basically every little town she spends a week in?
Absolutely yes.
Also to be fair, in the BOOKS, like 60% of Miss Marple's murders 1) take place elsewhere, and 2) are brought to her after the fact and people beg her for help. She solves a bunch of them years later, and her adoring fanboys at Scotland Yard are always bringing her little mysteries because solving them cheers her up and they like studying her methods.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:21 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Absolutely yes.
Also to be fair, in the BOOKS, like 60% of Miss Marple's murders 1) take place elsewhere, and 2) are brought to her after the fact and people beg her for help. She solves a bunch of them years later, and her adoring fanboys at Scotland Yard are always bringing her little mysteries because solving them cheers her up and they like studying her methods.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:21 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
is England so ridden with horrible murders that an old lady can find one in basically every little town she spends a week in?
I did the math at one point, and in 1997 (near the end of the ninth season of Midsomer Murders), England reached maximum murder saturation, or "peak murder." That is to say that every single person in England who hadn't already been murdered either had murdered someone (31 percent), or had been suspected of murdering someone because they had a clear motive and opportunity, but proved not to be the guilty party (69 percent) .
Of this 69 percent of Britons who were ultimately cleared of murder, 28 percent had tried to murder someone, but failed for various reasons. Frequently because their intended victim was murdered by someone else before they could bring their plan to fruition.
posted by Naberius at 11:21 AM on May 2, 2017 [29 favorites]
I did the math at one point, and in 1997 (near the end of the ninth season of Midsomer Murders), England reached maximum murder saturation, or "peak murder." That is to say that every single person in England who hadn't already been murdered either had murdered someone (31 percent), or had been suspected of murdering someone because they had a clear motive and opportunity, but proved not to be the guilty party (69 percent) .
Of this 69 percent of Britons who were ultimately cleared of murder, 28 percent had tried to murder someone, but failed for various reasons. Frequently because their intended victim was murdered by someone else before they could bring their plan to fruition.
posted by Naberius at 11:21 AM on May 2, 2017 [29 favorites]
Wait, how do you forget someone you dated? Are you Mick Jagger?
On the internet, nobody knows you're the squirmin' dog who's just had her day.
Naw, just when she and I were seeing each other, she had a different last name, and it took a while before I saw a picture of her and figured it out.
posted by Myca at 11:27 AM on May 2, 2017
On the internet, nobody knows you're the squirmin' dog who's just had her day.
Naw, just when she and I were seeing each other, she had a different last name, and it took a while before I saw a picture of her and figured it out.
posted by Myca at 11:27 AM on May 2, 2017
so what we are saying here is jessica fletcher is the hero we deserve
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:28 AM on May 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:28 AM on May 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
Also to be fair, in the BOOKS, like 60% of Miss Marple's murders 1) take place elsewhere, and 2) are brought to her after the fact and people beg her for help. She solves a bunch of them years later, and her adoring fanboys at Scotland Yard are always bringing her little mysteries because solving them cheers her up and they like studying her methods.
This is an excellent point! Or an old friend will call her up because 1) oh Jane it was simply frightful and I didn't know what to do, there there dear have some damson wine/brandy for medicinal purposes and tell me about it 2) murder might be not on but as long as one's happened it might as well be us that gets the fun of it.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:29 AM on May 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
She solves a bunch of them years later,
Yeah, in one of my favorite Marple mysteries, she solves the murder 25 years later. Often it's old crimes, as she passes.
posted by corb at 11:29 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, in one of my favorite Marple mysteries, she solves the murder 25 years later. Often it's old crimes, as she passes.
posted by corb at 11:29 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, in one of my favorite Marple mysteries, she solves the murder 25 years later.
This has got to be Sleeping Murder, right? Elephants Can Remember is also about twenty five years later but it's Poirot, and the other one of which I'm thinking, I want to say Ordeal by Innocence, isn't Marple either.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:32 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
This has got to be Sleeping Murder, right? Elephants Can Remember is also about twenty five years later but it's Poirot, and the other one of which I'm thinking, I want to say Ordeal by Innocence, isn't Marple either.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:32 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Fun fact: I mentioned a random moment in Body in the Library recently (I was reading it) and Mrs. Pterodactyl produced the dialogue just close enough to verbatim that I knew she hadn't gone out of her way to memorize it (which would be weird) nor had she looked it up.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:37 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:37 AM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Was it about nail parings???
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:38 AM on May 2, 2017
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:38 AM on May 2, 2017
MINOR SPOILERS FOR AGATHA CHRISTIE'S THE BODY IN THE LIBRARY
NO! I didn't want to bring that to his attention because I was afraid it would spoil the ending for him! It was how Colonel Bantry describes Basil when he learns about him being a young air raid warden who saved a dog but doesn't talk about it.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:40 AM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
NO! I didn't want to bring that to his attention because I was afraid it would spoil the ending for him! It was how Colonel Bantry describes Basil when he learns about him being a young air raid warden who saved a dog but doesn't talk about it.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:40 AM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
so what we are saying here is jessica fletcher is the hero we deserve
I mean, we can get into how issues like police corruption and state-sanctioned oppressive violence are also present in Cabot Cove and she is just as culpable for the abuses of extrajudicial vigilantism as Batman, but at least when presented with life in a crime-ridden hell, she doesn't decide that the best solution is to beat up people until the cops can drag them back to an asylum.
posted by Copronymus at 11:40 AM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I mean, we can get into how issues like police corruption and state-sanctioned oppressive violence are also present in Cabot Cove and she is just as culpable for the abuses of extrajudicial vigilantism as Batman, but at least when presented with life in a crime-ridden hell, she doesn't decide that the best solution is to beat up people until the cops can drag them back to an asylum.
posted by Copronymus at 11:40 AM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Right yeah, it was about that. I had to go look up the characters names just now to comment and I read the book last week.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:41 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:41 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
(I think that's the part he means, perhaps it was when explaining how Miss Marple described how Ruby Keene chose her clothing vs. *polite cough* a girl of our class?)
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:42 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:42 AM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've been talking about this piece with fandom-savvy and Batman-loving friends for a good part of the afternoon, and the responses range from finding this disappointing at best, and eye-rollingly obnoxious at worst. Setting aside the ways it rubs me really, really wrong to have a writer try to convince us of their cred with signalling references to how HARD and TOUGH working class life (without actual empathy or emotional investment or development of the working-class narrator), and setting aside all my quibbles with the writing (the pacing in the first section) and the nerd facts (WAYNE ENTERPRISES DID NOT START OUT AS REAL ESTATE VENTURE), this was published as nonfiction. It's fanfiction meant as meta criticism of Batman.
But if you're going to write a meta piece about a media property -- let alone fanfiction -- you should be conversant with the property. And yeah, there's a reference to the Nolan WHY SO SERIOUS?????, which shows that the writer saw at least one of those. But the fundamental premise of this are that BATMAN AS A VIGILANTE CAN'T SOLVE GOTHAM'S STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS and BRUCE WAYNE BENEFITS FROM BEING RICH!!!!!! and BATMAN AHS A HAND IN
Which. Friends. There are multiple episodes of Batman: The Animated Series on every single one of those points, and it's a kids cartoon that aired 20+ years ago. There are episodes of the Justice League Unlimited that touch on this. It's in the video games. It's in the comics ad nauseum, to the point where a friend of mine in the comics industry uses a joke about Batman's failure to invest in infrastructure as a joke in her dating profile.
The author might be convinced she's got a fresh and novel take on this whole Batman and Gotham and Bruce Wayne thing, but she doesn't. It's basically like watching Star Trekk and being like PEOPLE SAY THIS SHOW HAS LIBERAL VALUES, BUT SOMETIMES, JAMES T. KIRK SAYS SEXIST THINGS!!!!!!
tl;dr: I see a half-dozen more insightful shitposts while browsing Tumblr on the subway platform in the morning. I'm surprised it appeared in a publication as well-regarded as Uncanny.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:45 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
But if you're going to write a meta piece about a media property -- let alone fanfiction -- you should be conversant with the property. And yeah, there's a reference to the Nolan WHY SO SERIOUS?????, which shows that the writer saw at least one of those. But the fundamental premise of this are that BATMAN AS A VIGILANTE CAN'T SOLVE GOTHAM'S STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS and BRUCE WAYNE BENEFITS FROM BEING RICH!!!!!! and BATMAN AHS A HAND IN
Which. Friends. There are multiple episodes of Batman: The Animated Series on every single one of those points, and it's a kids cartoon that aired 20+ years ago. There are episodes of the Justice League Unlimited that touch on this. It's in the video games. It's in the comics ad nauseum, to the point where a friend of mine in the comics industry uses a joke about Batman's failure to invest in infrastructure as a joke in her dating profile.
The author might be convinced she's got a fresh and novel take on this whole Batman and Gotham and Bruce Wayne thing, but she doesn't. It's basically like watching Star Trekk and being like PEOPLE SAY THIS SHOW HAS LIBERAL VALUES, BUT SOMETIMES, JAMES T. KIRK SAYS SEXIST THINGS!!!!!!
tl;dr: I see a half-dozen more insightful shitposts while browsing Tumblr on the subway platform in the morning. I'm surprised it appeared in a publication as well-regarded as Uncanny.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:45 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
she is just as culpable for the abuses of extrajudicial vigilantism as Batman
I 100% disagree with this; if anything, Jessica Fletcher acts as a restraining force on the sheriff's department (and the police when she's in a different city/town). She uses her busybody powers for good by working within the boundaries of the existing justice system to help exonerate those who have been unfairly accused, many of whom are her ingenue nieces or dopey idiot nephew Grady.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:45 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I 100% disagree with this; if anything, Jessica Fletcher acts as a restraining force on the sheriff's department (and the police when she's in a different city/town). She uses her busybody powers for good by working within the boundaries of the existing justice system to help exonerate those who have been unfairly accused, many of whom are her ingenue nieces or dopey idiot nephew Grady.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:45 AM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I mean, we can get into how issues like police corruption and state-sanctioned oppressive violence are also present in Cabot Cove and she is just as culpable for the abuses of extrajudicial vigilantism as Batman, but at least when presented with life in a crime-ridden hell, she doesn't decide that the best solution is to beat up people until the cops can drag them back to an asylum.
Oh my WORD it is very upsetting how every time the murderer is a young blonde woman, Jessica decides it was "justified" and promises that she won't be charged (even though I also agree with Mrs. P that Jessica often uses her influence to reduce police violence and attacks on the vulnerable, especially attempts to persecute minorities of various kinds).
Which is, incidentally, part of the same issue I think Gailey is writing about in this piece-- extrajudicial vigilante action is always going to be warped by the worldview of the person who has decided that they are capable of making these calls on society's behalf. Batman's genesis was in violence, and so his solution is almost always rooted in violence. Even when he gives away billions, his actual instinct is for violence.
I think it is telling that his role as detective is often subordinated to his rage, and his acts of detection get reduced to surveillance rather than insight. Batman is most fun when he is detecting and actively trying to avoid violence, but it seems like his place in popular culture has just become more and more wedded to crushing skulls and buildings blowing up.
I thought it was interesting that the main character in this piece is always searching for jobs where he gets to build and make things, and Batman always comes and tears them apart-- even when it is Wayne manor, it is always about breaking things down. He gives away money because he knows that he should, but he doesn't actually think it will help very much, and as a result all his actual passion is poured into the trappings of violence, no matter how much money is spent on scholarships.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:53 AM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh my WORD it is very upsetting how every time the murderer is a young blonde woman, Jessica decides it was "justified" and promises that she won't be charged (even though I also agree with Mrs. P that Jessica often uses her influence to reduce police violence and attacks on the vulnerable, especially attempts to persecute minorities of various kinds).
Which is, incidentally, part of the same issue I think Gailey is writing about in this piece-- extrajudicial vigilante action is always going to be warped by the worldview of the person who has decided that they are capable of making these calls on society's behalf. Batman's genesis was in violence, and so his solution is almost always rooted in violence. Even when he gives away billions, his actual instinct is for violence.
I think it is telling that his role as detective is often subordinated to his rage, and his acts of detection get reduced to surveillance rather than insight. Batman is most fun when he is detecting and actively trying to avoid violence, but it seems like his place in popular culture has just become more and more wedded to crushing skulls and buildings blowing up.
I thought it was interesting that the main character in this piece is always searching for jobs where he gets to build and make things, and Batman always comes and tears them apart-- even when it is Wayne manor, it is always about breaking things down. He gives away money because he knows that he should, but he doesn't actually think it will help very much, and as a result all his actual passion is poured into the trappings of violence, no matter how much money is spent on scholarships.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:53 AM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
exonerate those who have been unfairly accused, many of whom are her ingenue nieces or dopey idiot nephew Grady.
Grady is a serial killer that Jessica has reigned in. He's a useful tool - many of those she catches will escape prosecution, but they will not escape Grady.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:58 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Grady is a serial killer that Jessica has reigned in. He's a useful tool - many of those she catches will escape prosecution, but they will not escape Grady.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:58 AM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Who Batmans the Batmen?
posted by blue_beetle at 12:01 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 12:01 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Batman lives in the big house on the hill, and does give to charity. However, the charities he gives to reflect a weird modus operandi: they fail to address the societal problems from a hand-up to work initiatives and instead rely on handouts for breadlines and providing gear for the police state.
He controls the rent. He controls a key tech company - which results in gentrification for part of the city, forcing up real estate values and further creating the socio-economic divide between those who have in Gotham and those who don't.
This is the same strategy employed in the reconstruction: its still taking advantage of another class by default. And he uses the police force and his money to perpetuate the cycle.
posted by Nanukthedog at 12:05 PM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
He controls the rent. He controls a key tech company - which results in gentrification for part of the city, forcing up real estate values and further creating the socio-economic divide between those who have in Gotham and those who don't.
This is the same strategy employed in the reconstruction: its still taking advantage of another class by default. And he uses the police force and his money to perpetuate the cycle.
posted by Nanukthedog at 12:05 PM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Who Batmans the Batmen?
posted by blue_beetle
hey, if anybody oughtta know...
posted by the phlegmatic king at 12:09 PM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle
hey, if anybody oughtta know...
posted by the phlegmatic king at 12:09 PM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
I think it is telling that his role as detective is often subordinated to his rage, and his acts of detection get reduced to surveillance rather than insight.
I think this says a lot more about the people who were attracted to the Batman mythos rather than Batman himself. There is something attractive about a universe where we are so smart/objective that we're always right, so we can vent our rage at the clear villain. It's a power fantasy that is very attractive, especially as people grow up and realize how powerless we all are.
The story struck me as being about the limitations of our own perspectives, how we nurture rage in our heart in response to what seems like clear injustices, how that causes us to replicate the very patterns which cause injustices to reoccur. We see the world from our perspective and we pick our sides based as much on emotion as reason. The story is about the emotional side of it, for good or ill; it's about how someone makes themselves into a minion.
posted by Deoridhe at 12:19 PM on May 2, 2017
I think this says a lot more about the people who were attracted to the Batman mythos rather than Batman himself. There is something attractive about a universe where we are so smart/objective that we're always right, so we can vent our rage at the clear villain. It's a power fantasy that is very attractive, especially as people grow up and realize how powerless we all are.
The story struck me as being about the limitations of our own perspectives, how we nurture rage in our heart in response to what seems like clear injustices, how that causes us to replicate the very patterns which cause injustices to reoccur. We see the world from our perspective and we pick our sides based as much on emotion as reason. The story is about the emotional side of it, for good or ill; it's about how someone makes themselves into a minion.
posted by Deoridhe at 12:19 PM on May 2, 2017
I'm not even sure this writer watched EVERY SEASON OF THE VENTURE BROTHERS before thinking she had something to add to the dialectics of empathizing with henchmen! an irresponsible piece
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:25 PM on May 2, 2017 [19 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:25 PM on May 2, 2017 [19 favorites]
That means those [pop culture accessible] are the parts that are the most important to engage with, not dismiss because of Detective Comics #17-123 or whatever.
The problem is that it's a shallow read. If you're going to take a deep dive into commentary and discovering sub-texts, as she's doing, it would be great if you could understand if your hot-take has been done before, and perhaps say something new. That's what a lot of people are saying here. She not wrong for trying, but for god's sake it's not like she's the only person to ever look at Batman. This ground is well trodden, and there are dozens of versions of this take on the material in all kinds of media, comics, tv and movies.
posted by bonehead at 12:41 PM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
The problem is that it's a shallow read. If you're going to take a deep dive into commentary and discovering sub-texts, as she's doing, it would be great if you could understand if your hot-take has been done before, and perhaps say something new. That's what a lot of people are saying here. She not wrong for trying, but for god's sake it's not like she's the only person to ever look at Batman. This ground is well trodden, and there are dozens of versions of this take on the material in all kinds of media, comics, tv and movies.
posted by bonehead at 12:41 PM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty sure the point of this piece is not to put forward an argument about what sort of person Bruce Wayne "really" is (as if that concept made sense).
The point of this piece is that real-world rich people like to tell themselves they are like Bruce Wayne in the comics when actually they're more like the Bruce Wayne of this short story. It's not an argument about what sort of myth DC comics has been telling so much as an argument about the myths we ought to be telling.
posted by straight at 12:51 PM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
The point of this piece is that real-world rich people like to tell themselves they are like Bruce Wayne in the comics when actually they're more like the Bruce Wayne of this short story. It's not an argument about what sort of myth DC comics has been telling so much as an argument about the myths we ought to be telling.
posted by straight at 12:51 PM on May 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
Currently trying to think of any superhero fiction that holds up okay... X-men maybe?
Well, so far the webcomic Strong Female Protagonist is holding up pretty well, though it also takes the position that supperheroing isn't a great idea. The main character in fact starts off by quitting her superteam (really a group of US sponsored teen soldiers), and enrolling in college top find out what the best use of her super-strength and invulnerability is.
I also liked Sweet Vicious. The scale is small, the university is actively protecting the criminals, vigilantism is shown not to really be a solution to personal trauma, and the court is out on the end effects of the main charter's crusade..
posted by happyroach at 12:53 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well, so far the webcomic Strong Female Protagonist is holding up pretty well, though it also takes the position that supperheroing isn't a great idea. The main character in fact starts off by quitting her superteam (really a group of US sponsored teen soldiers), and enrolling in college top find out what the best use of her super-strength and invulnerability is.
I also liked Sweet Vicious. The scale is small, the university is actively protecting the criminals, vigilantism is shown not to really be a solution to personal trauma, and the court is out on the end effects of the main charter's crusade..
posted by happyroach at 12:53 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
In a lot of ways the super hero comic is like the three camera sitcom: nothing can ever go right, or else the story doesn't work. Batman, and by proxy Bruce Wayne, can never do anything to alleviate or solve crime in Gotham, because then there's not reason for either one of them to exist as a story. Watching Bruce Wayne successfully solve teenaged gang involvement isn't interesting. In the same fashion, Drew Carey (the character) can never catch a break. He can never get a promotion, he can never get over his insecurity, he can never stop being antagonistic towards Mimi. Watching a successful Drew Carrey who straightens out his life, and stops existing in a depressive funk of alcoholic self-loathing isn't funny or interesting.
Both Drew Carey and Batman can, and necessarily often do, have temporary successes: stopping the Clock King's latest zany scheme, or going on a single successful date with Monica in accounts receivable. But, eventually (either in the next episode, or at the start of the next 12 issue arch), those successes have to be rolled back, so that they can have another obstacle to overcome. To exist as a character in a serial format dedicated to entertainment is basically to exist in hell.
posted by codacorolla at 1:15 PM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Both Drew Carey and Batman can, and necessarily often do, have temporary successes: stopping the Clock King's latest zany scheme, or going on a single successful date with Monica in accounts receivable. But, eventually (either in the next episode, or at the start of the next 12 issue arch), those successes have to be rolled back, so that they can have another obstacle to overcome. To exist as a character in a serial format dedicated to entertainment is basically to exist in hell.
posted by codacorolla at 1:15 PM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
You also need to take into account that Gotham is a machine designed to make Batman created by the demon Barbatos to free itself from the basement where it was accidentally trapped during an aborted summoning ritual in the 18th century, though the demon was actually the Hyper-Adapter, a living Apokoliptian weapon sent by Darkseid to hunt Batman's time-displaced consciousness across history.
oh, right!
posted by clockzero at 1:17 PM on May 2, 2017
oh, right!
posted by clockzero at 1:17 PM on May 2, 2017
In a lot of ways the super hero comic is like the three camera sitcom: nothing can ever go right, or else the story doesn't work. Batman, and by proxy Bruce Wayne, can never do anything to alleviate or solve crime in Gotham, because then there's not reason for either one of them to exist as a story. Watching Bruce Wayne successfully solve teenaged gang involvement isn't interesting.
I don't know why there can be one hundred crossover adventures where punching happens and at the end it was all a dream or it was all a cube or we were all Nazis all along, but we never get a version of Batman where Gotham gets better. I don't know why he gets to travel to all the murder-verses but an AU where he personally runs an orphanage with Harley Quinn as the non-insane staff psychiatrist and friend is so beyond the pale.
I mean, sitcoms have reinvented themselves to the point where growth and success can happen and things are still funny (Parks and Rec comes to mind). I don't know why "nice things happen in Gotham" is just too, too absurd.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:24 PM on May 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
I don't know why there can be one hundred crossover adventures where punching happens and at the end it was all a dream or it was all a cube or we were all Nazis all along, but we never get a version of Batman where Gotham gets better. I don't know why he gets to travel to all the murder-verses but an AU where he personally runs an orphanage with Harley Quinn as the non-insane staff psychiatrist and friend is so beyond the pale.
I mean, sitcoms have reinvented themselves to the point where growth and success can happen and things are still funny (Parks and Rec comes to mind). I don't know why "nice things happen in Gotham" is just too, too absurd.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:24 PM on May 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
I don't know why "nice things happen in Gotham" is just too, too absurd.
So one of the major abiding ironies of the Batman character, even in the grim-n-gritty variations, is how, more than any other character in the DC universe* is that he supports and is supported by a whole clan, even clans of superhero partners and helpers. He's not the lone wolf vigilante who vigils at midnight even if he still thinks of himself that way. Batman is the quintessential teambuilder in the DC(omics)U, not a lone hero at all. He's also, by a long chalk, the best mentor of young heroes in the DCU. Even Miller made a major plot point in both the DK and the DKR of Batman's redemption of a worst-of-the-worst streetgang.
So over the years, there's been a lot of "things get better" stories in Batman, especially at the personal scale. He's rescued a near dozen of at risk kids, girls as well as boys, into the "Batman Family". They're all still around, still all with their own fans.
It's totally so that DC can sell more Batman books and spin-off books, but the story effect is that their archtypical lone-wolf brooder, is, in fact, the best father-figure in their whole cosmology.
*except perhaps for a cookie-loving Martian.
posted by bonehead at 1:34 PM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
So one of the major abiding ironies of the Batman character, even in the grim-n-gritty variations, is how, more than any other character in the DC universe* is that he supports and is supported by a whole clan, even clans of superhero partners and helpers. He's not the lone wolf vigilante who vigils at midnight even if he still thinks of himself that way. Batman is the quintessential teambuilder in the DC(omics)U, not a lone hero at all. He's also, by a long chalk, the best mentor of young heroes in the DCU. Even Miller made a major plot point in both the DK and the DKR of Batman's redemption of a worst-of-the-worst streetgang.
So over the years, there's been a lot of "things get better" stories in Batman, especially at the personal scale. He's rescued a near dozen of at risk kids, girls as well as boys, into the "Batman Family". They're all still around, still all with their own fans.
It's totally so that DC can sell more Batman books and spin-off books, but the story effect is that their archtypical lone-wolf brooder, is, in fact, the best father-figure in their whole cosmology.
*except perhaps for a cookie-loving Martian.
posted by bonehead at 1:34 PM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
That's basically the same as assuming, based on the movies, that the Avengers never poop.
Have you seen their outfits? Iron Man? Nevernude Hulk?
At best the inside of Ironman's suit smells like anchovy pruno.
posted by zippy at 1:35 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Have you seen their outfits? Iron Man? Nevernude Hulk?
At best the inside of Ironman's suit smells like anchovy pruno.
posted by zippy at 1:35 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I just don't know if he's deploying that capital efficiently. Metropolis, Midway City, and Star City don't have nearly the same urban crime and corruption problems as Gotham.
My going theory is the City of Gotham has a shitty water filtration system or bad/lax chemical waste disposal laws. Large amounts of heavy metals have been introduced into the drinking water and now you have super high geographic concentration of mentally ill individuals.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:45 PM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
My going theory is the City of Gotham has a shitty water filtration system or bad/lax chemical waste disposal laws. Large amounts of heavy metals have been introduced into the drinking water and now you have super high geographic concentration of mentally ill individuals.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:45 PM on May 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
"Metropolis, Midway City, and Star City don't have nearly the same urban crime and corruption problems as Gotham."
Batman writer Denny O'Neil once said something to the effect that both Metropolis and Gotham are New York, but Metropolis is Fifth Avenue on a glorious sunny afternoon in June, while Gotham is a piss-stained alley in the South Bronx at 3am in February. Similarly, Metropolis is New York with the honest administrators and cops in charge, while Gotham is New York run by the the corrupt ones.
It's also worth mentioning that there's a whole swathe of Batman's history where he's not shown as a fucked-up, sadistic loner vigilante at all. Instead, he's a pillar of the Gotham community (sometimes with an honorary police badge) whose detective skills are central to the story. This applies not only to the 1960s TV series, but also to at least three decades of the comics.
Grimdark Batman was there in the very early Kane/Finger stories, to be sure, but that interpretation went away for many years. It was only with Miller's DKR in 1986 that it took over the character completely, and it's remained dominant ever since.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:49 PM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Batman writer Denny O'Neil once said something to the effect that both Metropolis and Gotham are New York, but Metropolis is Fifth Avenue on a glorious sunny afternoon in June, while Gotham is a piss-stained alley in the South Bronx at 3am in February. Similarly, Metropolis is New York with the honest administrators and cops in charge, while Gotham is New York run by the the corrupt ones.
It's also worth mentioning that there's a whole swathe of Batman's history where he's not shown as a fucked-up, sadistic loner vigilante at all. Instead, he's a pillar of the Gotham community (sometimes with an honorary police badge) whose detective skills are central to the story. This applies not only to the 1960s TV series, but also to at least three decades of the comics.
Grimdark Batman was there in the very early Kane/Finger stories, to be sure, but that interpretation went away for many years. It was only with Miller's DKR in 1986 that it took over the character completely, and it's remained dominant ever since.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:49 PM on May 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
This has got to be Sleeping Murder, right?
Yes! Good catch. Though somehow it turns out I have never read Elephants Can Remember, so now I have something to do while waiting to pick up my kid from an after school activity! Thank you.
posted by corb at 2:09 PM on May 2, 2017
Yes! Good catch. Though somehow it turns out I have never read Elephants Can Remember, so now I have something to do while waiting to pick up my kid from an after school activity! Thank you.
posted by corb at 2:09 PM on May 2, 2017
Paul Slade: "Batman writer Denny O'Neil once said something to the effect that both Metropolis and Gotham are New York, but Metropolis is Fifth Avenue on a glorious sunny afternoon in June, while Gotham is a piss-stained alley in the South Bronx at 3am in February. "
Interesting analogy. I've recently been inclined to think of Gotham as the NYC of the 1970s and Metropolis as the NYC of the 2010s.
posted by mhum at 2:31 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Interesting analogy. I've recently been inclined to think of Gotham as the NYC of the 1970s and Metropolis as the NYC of the 2010s.
posted by mhum at 2:31 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Batman was not the protagonist of The Dark Knight. It gives you something to think about when it comes to calling Batman a 'hero'.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 2:33 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 2:33 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
So one of the major abiding ironies of the Batman character, even in the grim-n-gritty variations, is how, more than any other character in the DC universe* is that he supports and is supported by a whole clan, even clans of superhero partners and helpers. He's not the lone wolf vigilante who vigils at midnight even if he still thinks of himself that way. Batman is the quintessential teambuilder in the DC(omics)U, not a lone hero at all.
And the funny part is that the real reason for this is the same as the reason the surly loner Wolverine is on 5 different superteams (while simultaneously off on some adventure by himself in his own book). Batman is so popular they can't resist putting him in more books and creating lots of spinoff "Batman Family" characters they hope will sell because Batman.
posted by straight at 2:35 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
And the funny part is that the real reason for this is the same as the reason the surly loner Wolverine is on 5 different superteams (while simultaneously off on some adventure by himself in his own book). Batman is so popular they can't resist putting him in more books and creating lots of spinoff "Batman Family" characters they hope will sell because Batman.
posted by straight at 2:35 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
The other day, while brushing my teeth, I was kicking around the idea of someone like Trump Jr. or his brother turning to masked crimefighting as a "world's most dangerous game" sort of hobby.
You'd have to hold back on him outright killing someone until the towards the end of the second act I think, so you'd need to imagine someone more stable than the Trumps.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 2:46 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
You'd have to hold back on him outright killing someone until the towards the end of the second act I think, so you'd need to imagine someone more stable than the Trumps.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 2:46 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Gotham is a machine designed to make Batman created by the demon Barbatos to free itself from the basement where it was accidentally trapped during an aborted summoning ritual in the 18th century,
Those are some of the first Batman comics I ever read! It's a nice little self-contained story, but I think it loses something if you make it the official canonical explanation for --
though the demon was actually the Hyper-Adapter, a living Apokoliptian weapon sent by Darkseid to hunt Batman's time-displaced consciousness across history.
Oh. So that's why people don't like Grant Morrison.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 3:27 PM on May 2, 2017
Those are some of the first Batman comics I ever read! It's a nice little self-contained story, but I think it loses something if you make it the official canonical explanation for --
though the demon was actually the Hyper-Adapter, a living Apokoliptian weapon sent by Darkseid to hunt Batman's time-displaced consciousness across history.
Oh. So that's why people don't like Grant Morrison.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 3:27 PM on May 2, 2017
I subscribe to what I will call the King Radical theory of Batman. The purpose of Batman is not to stop crime; the purpose of Batman is to stop crime from being not rad enough. If Bruce Wayne gave up on being Batman entirely and invested all of his money in social programs, crime in Gotham would probably drop somewhat, but it wouldn't stop entirely and it would still be not rad. By maintaining the mantle of Batman, Bruce is able to make sure that the criminal element is inspired to doing totally rad shit.
I live in the Batman-less city of Los Angeles. Let's compare crime here to crime in Gotham.
In Los Angeles kidnapping usually results of a jilted parent carrying off their own kid and keeping them in an abusive situation (Not Rad).
In Gotham kidnapping usually results in a millionaire being trapped in a giant maze full of armed goons dressed like classic children’s literature characters (Rad).
In Los Angeles cyber-crime might someone stealing compromising photos off of a phone in order to embarrass an ex (Not Rad).
In Gotham cyber-crime might involve hacking a giant robot parade doll and forcing it to smash into the museum to steal a diamond shaped like a cat's butthole or something (Super Rad).
In Los Angeles the murder weapon of choice is a gun (So Not Rad).
In Gotham the murder weapon of choice is a tank full of piranhas into which victims fall through a trap door in the dilapidated aviary at the abandoned zoo (FUCKING RAD).
Batman may not have made Gotham crime-free, but you can't tell me that he hasn't made it into its best possible incarnation.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 4:06 PM on May 2, 2017 [16 favorites]
I live in the Batman-less city of Los Angeles. Let's compare crime here to crime in Gotham.
In Los Angeles kidnapping usually results of a jilted parent carrying off their own kid and keeping them in an abusive situation (Not Rad).
In Gotham kidnapping usually results in a millionaire being trapped in a giant maze full of armed goons dressed like classic children’s literature characters (Rad).
In Los Angeles cyber-crime might someone stealing compromising photos off of a phone in order to embarrass an ex (Not Rad).
In Gotham cyber-crime might involve hacking a giant robot parade doll and forcing it to smash into the museum to steal a diamond shaped like a cat's butthole or something (Super Rad).
In Los Angeles the murder weapon of choice is a gun (So Not Rad).
In Gotham the murder weapon of choice is a tank full of piranhas into which victims fall through a trap door in the dilapidated aviary at the abandoned zoo (FUCKING RAD).
Batman may not have made Gotham crime-free, but you can't tell me that he hasn't made it into its best possible incarnation.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 4:06 PM on May 2, 2017 [16 favorites]
I keep saying: Batman needs more giant pennies.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:06 PM on May 2, 2017
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:06 PM on May 2, 2017
GenjiandProust: "I keep saying: Batman needs more giant pennies."
A brutally grim and modern take on Batman? Yawn. Not again.
A brutally grim and modern take on Penny Plunderer? Fresh! Sign me up!
posted by mhum at 4:27 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
A brutally grim and modern take on Batman? Yawn. Not again.
A brutally grim and modern take on Penny Plunderer? Fresh! Sign me up!
posted by mhum at 4:27 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Batman may not have made Gotham crime-free, but you can't tell me that he hasn't made it into its best possible incarnation.
some might call it a better class of criminal
posted by entropicamericana at 4:33 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
some might call it a better class of criminal
posted by entropicamericana at 4:33 PM on May 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Internet, bring me a Batman/Murder she wrote mashup.
posted by zippy at 4:48 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by zippy at 4:48 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
until I was in my 20s or so, I honestly believed that criminals had stopped pulling off big-time jewel heists (due to logistical matters) and that they mainly persisted as the perfect plots for supervillains. Menacing, but not outright evil, with a dash of flair.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:44 PM on May 2, 2017
posted by Countess Elena at 7:44 PM on May 2, 2017
Batman writer Denny O'Neil once said something to the effect that both Metropolis and Gotham are New York, but Metropolis is Fifth Avenue on a glorious sunny afternoon in June, while Gotham is a piss-stained alley in the South Bronx at 3am in February. Similarly, Metropolis is New York with the honest administrators and cops in charge, while Gotham is New York run by the the corrupt ones.
Maybe Gotham and Metropolis are the same city and there's just some kind of Mievillean The City & The City compartmentalization going on. Superman would obviously abide by the borders, but Batman would probably go Breach as fuck.
Or maybe Metropolis is the West Germany to Gotham's GDR. Batman living under Stasi rule would have some interesting facets. Much more so than the ushanka wearing Batman in Red Son.
Also, it's weird that the good billionaires like Stark and Wayne put on special costumes to punch poor people while the bad billionaires like Luthor generally spend their time running corporations that have a Tesla sorta bent.
posted by Telf at 8:33 PM on May 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Maybe Gotham and Metropolis are the same city and there's just some kind of Mievillean The City & The City compartmentalization going on. Superman would obviously abide by the borders, but Batman would probably go Breach as fuck.
Or maybe Metropolis is the West Germany to Gotham's GDR. Batman living under Stasi rule would have some interesting facets. Much more so than the ushanka wearing Batman in Red Son.
Also, it's weird that the good billionaires like Stark and Wayne put on special costumes to punch poor people while the bad billionaires like Luthor generally spend their time running corporations that have a Tesla sorta bent.
posted by Telf at 8:33 PM on May 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Both Drew Carey and Batman can, and necessarily often do, have temporary successes:
They also both have Diedrich Bader, as Drew's pal Oswald on the sitcom, and as the voice of Bats in the animated "Brave and the Bold", one of the best Batvariations ever.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:40 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
They also both have Diedrich Bader, as Drew's pal Oswald on the sitcom, and as the voice of Bats in the animated "Brave and the Bold", one of the best Batvariations ever.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:40 PM on May 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
until I was in my 20s or so, I honestly believed that criminals had stopped pulling off big-time jewel heists (due to logistical matters) and that they mainly persisted as the perfect plots for supervillains. Menacing, but not outright evil, with a dash of flair.
The nice thing about diamond heists is that a group of thieves stealing from diamond companies qualifies as criminal-on-criminal crime.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:56 PM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
The nice thing about diamond heists is that a group of thieves stealing from diamond companies qualifies as criminal-on-criminal crime.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:56 PM on May 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also, it's weird that the good billionaires like Stark and Wayne put on special costumes to punch poor people while the bad billionaires like Luthor generally spend their time running corporations that have a Tesla sorta bent.
Comic books are cautionary tales told by nerds about evil nerds getting beaten up by jocks.
posted by straight at 11:15 PM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Comic books are cautionary tales told by nerds about evil nerds getting beaten up by jocks.
posted by straight at 11:15 PM on May 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Hey, I liked it.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 12:05 AM on May 3, 2017
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 12:05 AM on May 3, 2017
The world of Batman is an onion-skin's breadth away from the “Chicago-gangster capitalism” caricature of America found in Cold War-era Soviet propaganda.
posted by acb at 3:53 AM on May 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 3:53 AM on May 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
This only reinforces my opinion that Adam West is unironically the best Batman. Consider:
* Whenever possible he follows all laws, setting a good example.
* He never uses an inappropriate degree of force.
* As Bruce Wayne, he runs a ridiculous number of charities, including criminal rehab programs that keep the more minor league criminals from re-offending.
Of all the portrayals of Batman, he's arguably the only one who's doing a good job.
posted by unreason at 4:13 AM on May 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
* Whenever possible he follows all laws, setting a good example.
* He never uses an inappropriate degree of force.
* As Bruce Wayne, he runs a ridiculous number of charities, including criminal rehab programs that keep the more minor league criminals from re-offending.
Of all the portrayals of Batman, he's arguably the only one who's doing a good job.
posted by unreason at 4:13 AM on May 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
My going theory is the City of Gotham has a shitty water filtration system or bad/lax chemical waste disposal laws. Large amounts of heavy metals have been introduced into the drinking water and now you have super high geographic concentration of mentally ill individuals.
Or perhaps (what exists of) the social-care system is being used by some shadowy government/private agency to run MKULTRA-style experiments. A small-time hood ends up in the prison system, is pumped full of drugs/subjected to hypno-rays/similar, comes out floridly psychotic. Arkham Asylum is, of course, a major hub of this sort of research. (Also, what happened to Bruce Wayne after he was orphaned? Could he have ended up in some sort of care/therapy which resulted in him becoming a guy who dresses as a bat?)
posted by acb at 4:48 AM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Or perhaps (what exists of) the social-care system is being used by some shadowy government/private agency to run MKULTRA-style experiments. A small-time hood ends up in the prison system, is pumped full of drugs/subjected to hypno-rays/similar, comes out floridly psychotic. Arkham Asylum is, of course, a major hub of this sort of research. (Also, what happened to Bruce Wayne after he was orphaned? Could he have ended up in some sort of care/therapy which resulted in him becoming a guy who dresses as a bat?)
posted by acb at 4:48 AM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
This forced me to go back and read The Dark Knight Returns. HOLY HELL, it's awful too. Not nearly as bad as All Star Batman, but fairly crap. It's such a New York in the 1980s meet Police Academy/Robo Cop/ Trump's view of inner cities sort of perspective. It's strange how some people's views haven't evolved since the 1980s.
A key thing to remember about The Dark Knight Returns, and why I cut it a lot more slack than I cut quite a few other grimdark (or grimderp) books is that it came out in 1986 - a year before Robocop. Yes, in many ways it's horrible. But it's honestly so in a way that later ones aren't.
But Miller, I think, would have gone over flat had the Comics Code Authority not happened. He's like the British Invasion - almost from a parallel universe and deconstructing these strange superhero comics in his early work to work out what makes them tick (almost all the British Invasion came through 2000AD which barely does superheroes). Instead he wants to write crime comics, but they've been banned by the CCA so street level vigilantes are as close as he can get, and he pulls them one step closer to the street while his American rivals are busy writing superhero stories. At the time it was fresh. And it did horrible, horrible things to Batman.
And the funny part is that the real reason for this is the same as the reason the surly loner Wolverine is on 5 different superteams (while simultaneously off on some adventure by himself in his own book). Batman is so popular they can't resist putting him in more books and creating lots of spinoff "Batman Family" characters they hope will sell because Batman.
Actually, no. That's the real reason Batman's on so many superteams although it's far more justified in character. But let's look at the pre-Infinite Crisis Batclan which is about as large as it got.
And that's without getting into Batman being paranoid (and I think canonically in the JLA to keep an eye on them; was he in anything except the JLA and running the Outsiders?) but Nightwing and Oracle being probably the two best networkers in the DCU. Nightwing of course being the former leader of the Titans in part because he was initially a foil for Batman and the light cheerful one and Oracle being the only professional networker on the hero side because she'd had to reinvent herself as a superhero without powers in a wheelchair.
posted by Francis at 10:52 AM on May 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
A key thing to remember about The Dark Knight Returns, and why I cut it a lot more slack than I cut quite a few other grimdark (or grimderp) books is that it came out in 1986 - a year before Robocop. Yes, in many ways it's horrible. But it's honestly so in a way that later ones aren't.
But Miller, I think, would have gone over flat had the Comics Code Authority not happened. He's like the British Invasion - almost from a parallel universe and deconstructing these strange superhero comics in his early work to work out what makes them tick (almost all the British Invasion came through 2000AD which barely does superheroes). Instead he wants to write crime comics, but they've been banned by the CCA so street level vigilantes are as close as he can get, and he pulls them one step closer to the street while his American rivals are busy writing superhero stories. At the time it was fresh. And it did horrible, horrible things to Batman.
And the funny part is that the real reason for this is the same as the reason the surly loner Wolverine is on 5 different superteams (while simultaneously off on some adventure by himself in his own book). Batman is so popular they can't resist putting him in more books and creating lots of spinoff "Batman Family" characters they hope will sell because Batman.
Actually, no. That's the real reason Batman's on so many superteams although it's far more justified in character. But let's look at the pre-Infinite Crisis Batclan which is about as large as it got.
- Alfred Pennyworth. 'Nuff said.
- Selena Kyle as Catwoman. Arguably part of the family. Certainly dates back a long way.
- Dick Grayson as Nightwing. Original Robin. Now Nightwing.
Jason Todd. Still dead. Moving on.- Tim Drake as Robin. Because they wanted a Robin again. Batman does need a foil.
- Barbara Gordon as Oracle. She became her own character in the Suicide Squad (post-The Killing Joke) at least in part because Kim Yale, who was in a wheelchair, wanted to write a character in a wheelchair, The Joker had crippled Barbara, and no one was doing anything with her.
- Helena Bertillini as The Huntress. This one might actually be an example of a deliberate character created for the spinoff.
- Jean-Paul Valley as Azrael: Agent of the Bat. He's barely been seen for a while - but was created as a dark mirror of Batman to demonstrate why they don't write him as GrimDerp.
- Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. A mute dyslexic who reads body language being mentored by Oracle? Possibly designed as a spinoff, but hardly a knockoff.
- Stephanie Brown as Spoiler. This one came straight from the pages of Robin because he actually needs a supporting cast based in Gotham. (Was a throwaway character in three pages of Detective Comics before that).
- Dinah Lance as Black Canary. Ancient character, currently swept up in Oracle's Birds of Prey.
- Assorted other Birds of Prey like Misfit
And that's without getting into Batman being paranoid (and I think canonically in the JLA to keep an eye on them; was he in anything except the JLA and running the Outsiders?) but Nightwing and Oracle being probably the two best networkers in the DCU. Nightwing of course being the former leader of the Titans in part because he was initially a foil for Batman and the light cheerful one and Oracle being the only professional networker on the hero side because she'd had to reinvent herself as a superhero without powers in a wheelchair.
posted by Francis at 10:52 AM on May 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Now you're just making me want to go back and re-read some classic Birds Of Prey.
posted by comealongpole at 12:59 PM on May 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by comealongpole at 12:59 PM on May 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
This only reinforces my opinion that Adam West is unironically the best Batman. Consider:
* Whenever possible he follows all laws, setting a good example.
* He never uses an inappropriate degree of force.
* As Bruce Wayne, he runs a ridiculous number of charities, including criminal rehab programs that keep the more minor league criminals from re-offending.
Of all the portrayals of Batman, he's arguably the only one who's doing a good job.
I agree.
Also, on that show he and Robin were not vigilantes at all, but fully deputized officers of the law (presumably the condition existed prior to it being explaned in the movie).
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 1:47 PM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
* Whenever possible he follows all laws, setting a good example.
* He never uses an inappropriate degree of force.
* As Bruce Wayne, he runs a ridiculous number of charities, including criminal rehab programs that keep the more minor league criminals from re-offending.
Of all the portrayals of Batman, he's arguably the only one who's doing a good job.
I agree.
Also, on that show he and Robin were not vigilantes at all, but fully deputized officers of the law (presumably the condition existed prior to it being explaned in the movie).
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 1:47 PM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
It also should be added that Adam West looked dem sharp in a tux. DEM. SHARP.
posted by comealongpole at 4:28 PM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by comealongpole at 4:28 PM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
And he didn't need molded plastic to improve his physique. Pure. West.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:03 PM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:03 PM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
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