The last Mormon Scout
May 12, 2017 9:19 AM Subscribe
The LDS church, major sponsor and cultural driver within the Boy Scouts of America and Scounts Canada has started to pulling up stakes in both organizations. They cite diverging values.
The LDS church has long used Scouting for the basis of its male youth program. The church has been seen to have a strong driving force within the organization, engendering the programs they are withdrawing elder youth from; Varsity and Venture scouting. The new policy (PDF) does not preclude scouts from continuing on their own and encourages them to be properly registered. Younger scouts (below 14) will remain in-program though it is suggested this is an interim period before complete withdrawal.
Outdoor adventure and Baden Powell's (modified) Laws will be replaced by the "Teacher and Priest Activity Program".
The LDS church has long used Scouting for the basis of its male youth program. The church has been seen to have a strong driving force within the organization, engendering the programs they are withdrawing elder youth from; Varsity and Venture scouting. The new policy (PDF) does not preclude scouts from continuing on their own and encourages them to be properly registered. Younger scouts (below 14) will remain in-program though it is suggested this is an interim period before complete withdrawal.
Outdoor adventure and Baden Powell's (modified) Laws will be replaced by the "Teacher and Priest Activity Program".
If they were to withdrawal from the entire program, it could have huge and devastating effects for BSA. That said, I'm glad that Boy Scouts is slowly changing to be more inclusive.
posted by drezdn at 9:27 AM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 9:27 AM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think scouting can survive just fine without the LDS, even if it ends up being a significantly smaller organization. I suspect it would be a healthier one, more willing up modernize and open up to different kinds of people. I wouldn't be opposed to a BSA/GSA merger, honestly, and I can see it happening.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 9:31 AM on May 12, 2017 [62 favorites]
posted by LastOfHisKind at 9:31 AM on May 12, 2017 [62 favorites]
I wouldn't be opposed to a BSA/GSA merger, honestly, and I can see it happening.
This.
posted by Fizz at 9:33 AM on May 12, 2017 [19 favorites]
This.
posted by Fizz at 9:33 AM on May 12, 2017 [19 favorites]
Speaking as an ex-Scout...
...don't let the door hit you in the rear on the way out, guys.
posted by SansPoint at 9:41 AM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
...don't let the door hit you in the rear on the way out, guys.
posted by SansPoint at 9:41 AM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't be opposed to a BSA/GSA merger, honestly, and I can see it happening.
For those who don't know, this is done in some other countries (I believe Japan is the largest), and there are several such non-BSA/GSA groups in the US, including Camp Fire (which went coed in 1975).
posted by Etrigan at 9:41 AM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
For those who don't know, this is done in some other countries (I believe Japan is the largest), and there are several such non-BSA/GSA groups in the US, including Camp Fire (which went coed in 1975).
posted by Etrigan at 9:41 AM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
Sounds like a fine time to stop pretending that the scouts are a secular or tolerant organization and replace their label with something that has an unambiguous label. I suggest the NCABA, or "nationalist, Christian, authoritarian bullies of America." Let's replace the eagle and fleur-de-lis with a bundle of fasci and stop futzing around.
I love exploring the outdoors. I love community service. Knots and knives and solar cookers are awesome. An organization that embraces community, and mechanical skills, and respect for nature sounds great. But, even as an 11 year old who wouldn't have known the keywords to describe political positions, the the creepy right-wing tone and military fetishism of the local BSA groups drove me to run for the hills. I hope neither branch survives the split, and they are replaced by something less horrible. (GSA seems like a fine candidate.)
posted by eotvos at 9:46 AM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
I love exploring the outdoors. I love community service. Knots and knives and solar cookers are awesome. An organization that embraces community, and mechanical skills, and respect for nature sounds great. But, even as an 11 year old who wouldn't have known the keywords to describe political positions, the the creepy right-wing tone and military fetishism of the local BSA groups drove me to run for the hills. I hope neither branch survives the split, and they are replaced by something less horrible. (GSA seems like a fine candidate.)
posted by eotvos at 9:46 AM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
There's plenty of secular and accepting troops out there. Hopefully, the LDS splitting the organization will help them thrive and the ones you're describing to die off.
posted by Punkey at 9:49 AM on May 12, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Punkey at 9:49 AM on May 12, 2017 [10 favorites]
This came up in a District meeting last night. I was surprised to see it hadn't hit MetaFilter yet. I think this change may suck for LDS Scouters who like the program, as kids will not have the expectation of seeing all their friends in their units as they grow up. It also is kind of bad as LDS units were (in my understanding) year-round activities, whereas most other Scouting units (at least at the Cub level) are tied to the school year, with little going on in the summer.
On the other hand, for non-LDS Scouters, this will make inclusionary and progressive attitudes a WHOLE lot easier. The huge effect of institutionalized LDS involvement was an increase in religious conservative viewpoints within the organization, which (IMHO) directly led to a huge reduction in places that sponsored units. Each Scouting unit is associated with a chartered organization that hosts the meetings and provides other infrastructure support. Years ago, many elementary schools were chartered organizations. With the exclusionary push within BSA, a push that seems to have been largely the result of the significant LDS involvement within Scouting, this changed - schools dropped out, and churches took over. The end result is a much stronger influence of religion in the program - and in the US, religion by and large means Christian. Which sucks for a lot of kids who are not strongly religious, are religious but not Christian, or are agnostic/atheist/humanist/etc.
For any LDS MeFites - I want to stress that I am in no way saying this was a deliberate, intentional thing. LDS Scouters did not directly cause the program changes. But LDS policy was essentially forced on Scouting by default, as LDS units represented such a huge percentage of the organization. At some point LDS leaders saw value in the program and adopted it, as a default, which pushed LDS membership high enough to have effects on non-LDS units. As exclusionary policy became the norm, and nonreligious chartered orgs declined, a lot of kids who might have otherwise participated probably chose not to, causing a snowball effect. (This is going to happen for ANY group that makes up a big percentage of the membership. If, say, Zen Buddhist Scouts made up 30+% of the organization, I am sure a lot of changes that favored the Buddhist viewpoint would be implemented.)
I'm wondering what the dropout rate will be for LDS Scouts when they hit 14. Not going to see a lot of 13 year old Eagle Scouts, I think - that's an awful lot to accomplish in 2 years. But without the support of the church, how many units are going to exist for kids older than that? On the plus side, this might mean that non-LDS youths in heavily Mormon areas might have an easier time finding a unit that makes them feel more included. We'll see.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:49 AM on May 12, 2017 [9 favorites]
On the other hand, for non-LDS Scouters, this will make inclusionary and progressive attitudes a WHOLE lot easier. The huge effect of institutionalized LDS involvement was an increase in religious conservative viewpoints within the organization, which (IMHO) directly led to a huge reduction in places that sponsored units. Each Scouting unit is associated with a chartered organization that hosts the meetings and provides other infrastructure support. Years ago, many elementary schools were chartered organizations. With the exclusionary push within BSA, a push that seems to have been largely the result of the significant LDS involvement within Scouting, this changed - schools dropped out, and churches took over. The end result is a much stronger influence of religion in the program - and in the US, religion by and large means Christian. Which sucks for a lot of kids who are not strongly religious, are religious but not Christian, or are agnostic/atheist/humanist/etc.
For any LDS MeFites - I want to stress that I am in no way saying this was a deliberate, intentional thing. LDS Scouters did not directly cause the program changes. But LDS policy was essentially forced on Scouting by default, as LDS units represented such a huge percentage of the organization. At some point LDS leaders saw value in the program and adopted it, as a default, which pushed LDS membership high enough to have effects on non-LDS units. As exclusionary policy became the norm, and nonreligious chartered orgs declined, a lot of kids who might have otherwise participated probably chose not to, causing a snowball effect. (This is going to happen for ANY group that makes up a big percentage of the membership. If, say, Zen Buddhist Scouts made up 30+% of the organization, I am sure a lot of changes that favored the Buddhist viewpoint would be implemented.)
I'm wondering what the dropout rate will be for LDS Scouts when they hit 14. Not going to see a lot of 13 year old Eagle Scouts, I think - that's an awful lot to accomplish in 2 years. But without the support of the church, how many units are going to exist for kids older than that? On the plus side, this might mean that non-LDS youths in heavily Mormon areas might have an easier time finding a unit that makes them feel more included. We'll see.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:49 AM on May 12, 2017 [9 favorites]
What I hear from Utah is that the LDS Scouting program is a joke, and far less rigorous for the Eagle Scout requirement than other troops. Also since the leaders are assigned as an LDS "calling" by the local Bishop, they are likely to be less trained and motivated, leading to danger sometimes for the kids on campouts and hikes. Their goal is for almost every future missionary LDS boy to get an Eagle at a younger age than most Eagle Scouts, so the requirements are slack and in some cases lowered to achieve this goal. I do not think losing LDS scout programs will greatly damage the integrity of scouting in the rest of the country, and may even enhance it. My kids were in scouts that were non-denominational, and that worked just fine. I am glad to see that they are becoming more inclusive and moving with the times.
posted by mermayd at 9:50 AM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by mermayd at 9:50 AM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
eotvos: "Sounds like a fine time to stop pretending that the scouts are a secular or tolerant organization"
Yeah, we've had this discussion before on MeFi. The attitude of any given unit is largely driven by the unit leadership. If you hate the leadership locally, fine. But there are a lot of us in the system that actively pushed for the changes that are now driving out the hard-line conservatives you dislike. That's how you replace the bad leadership - by encouraging good leaders and good policy.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:58 AM on May 12, 2017 [27 favorites]
Yeah, we've had this discussion before on MeFi. The attitude of any given unit is largely driven by the unit leadership. If you hate the leadership locally, fine. But there are a lot of us in the system that actively pushed for the changes that are now driving out the hard-line conservatives you dislike. That's how you replace the bad leadership - by encouraging good leaders and good policy.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:58 AM on May 12, 2017 [27 favorites]
Another ex-Mormon Scout here, and I'm all for this.
The most feral, unhinged and anti-nature experiences I've ever had involved Mormon scouting. You'd think it would have been all the weird desert raves I went to, but, no. It was kind of the opposite of that.
There's a story in my history about peeing out a fire. That was a Mormon BSA camping outing.
I've also seen water balloon fights devolve into potentially lethal hard rock fights involving water balloon launchers and wrist rockets, snipe hunts that turned into brutal melees thrashing around in the brush in the dark, a couple of hillsides totally eroded because they were good for sliding down on sheets of cardboard and all kinds of crap that was neither gentle nor leave no trace.
posted by loquacious at 9:58 AM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
The most feral, unhinged and anti-nature experiences I've ever had involved Mormon scouting. You'd think it would have been all the weird desert raves I went to, but, no. It was kind of the opposite of that.
There's a story in my history about peeing out a fire. That was a Mormon BSA camping outing.
I've also seen water balloon fights devolve into potentially lethal hard rock fights involving water balloon launchers and wrist rockets, snipe hunts that turned into brutal melees thrashing around in the brush in the dark, a couple of hillsides totally eroded because they were good for sliding down on sheets of cardboard and all kinds of crap that was neither gentle nor leave no trace.
posted by loquacious at 9:58 AM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
OMG, the peeing on the fire story! I still laugh so hard my stomach hurts when I read it.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 10:01 AM on May 12, 2017
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 10:01 AM on May 12, 2017
Where's the peeing story? Sounds like a good one!
Metafilter: The most feral, unhinged and anti-nature experience I've ever had.
posted by clawsoon at 10:09 AM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: The most feral, unhinged and anti-nature experience I've ever had.
posted by clawsoon at 10:09 AM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm an Eagle Scout, thanks to the organization of the LDS troop that took over when the elementary school cub scout troop got smaller and smaller as non-LDS boys took up sports instead.
If not for their drive to get the LDS boys to be Eagle Scouts before they turned 18, I would have floated along and ended up somewhere below Eagle. As a non-LDS member myself, the whole experience was largely positive, though I was invited to some LDS youth mixers, including a semi-formal boy-girl dinner at the Temple, which was odd. My brother's boy scout troop was non-denominational, as far as I recall, and they were more focused on outdoor events, not so much "leveling up" and grinding through badges.
In short: it's just as caution live frogs wrote: The attitude of any given unit is largely driven by the unit leadership. Boy Scouts never seemed too heavily directed from above at the local level, given the two vastly different troops I saw in the same medium-sized city.
That said, I wholly support a more open and supportive operation from the top down, and if that means LDS do their own thing, so be it. I think they're the ones to lose out, because diversity in troops are good for everyone in the troop.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:11 AM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
If not for their drive to get the LDS boys to be Eagle Scouts before they turned 18, I would have floated along and ended up somewhere below Eagle. As a non-LDS member myself, the whole experience was largely positive, though I was invited to some LDS youth mixers, including a semi-formal boy-girl dinner at the Temple, which was odd. My brother's boy scout troop was non-denominational, as far as I recall, and they were more focused on outdoor events, not so much "leveling up" and grinding through badges.
In short: it's just as caution live frogs wrote: The attitude of any given unit is largely driven by the unit leadership. Boy Scouts never seemed too heavily directed from above at the local level, given the two vastly different troops I saw in the same medium-sized city.
That said, I wholly support a more open and supportive operation from the top down, and if that means LDS do their own thing, so be it. I think they're the ones to lose out, because diversity in troops are good for everyone in the troop.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:11 AM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
iI wouldn't be opposed to a BSA/GSA merger, honestly, and I can see it happening
I would hate that. When boys and girls are mixed, girls often are called on less, get less attention, and socially feel less included. These organizations don't need to be combined.
posted by agregoli at 10:20 AM on May 12, 2017 [32 favorites]
I would hate that. When boys and girls are mixed, girls often are called on less, get less attention, and socially feel less included. These organizations don't need to be combined.
posted by agregoli at 10:20 AM on May 12, 2017 [32 favorites]
Peeing on a fire is... very nearly one of the most awful things on the face of the planet. Worse then Goatse.cx. Worse then Tubgirl. Worse then 5 pounds of mutated silicone-injected cock in your lap.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 10:25 AM on May 12, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 10:25 AM on May 12, 2017 [15 favorites]
The sheer fact that they think there's an incompatibility means they need to be out as soon as possible, doesn't it? Because they're basically admitting that there's a conflict of interest in asking the BSA to both serve the needs of the LDS church and serve the needs of literally everybody outside the LDS church.
These organizations don't need to be combined.
The organizations themselves could be administrated together without combining troops except in areas which are legit too small to manage separate troops, I'd think, at which point you're probably talking about groups that wouldn't survive separately. I don't know about anybody else, but when I was a kid I knew of a lot of Girl Scout activities that wound up being 'girls plus like two girls' brothers' and that seemed to usually work out okay; get beyond those sorts of numbers and they could still have separate troops but share the admin expenses, campgrounds, insurance bills, etc.
posted by Sequence at 10:28 AM on May 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
These organizations don't need to be combined.
The organizations themselves could be administrated together without combining troops except in areas which are legit too small to manage separate troops, I'd think, at which point you're probably talking about groups that wouldn't survive separately. I don't know about anybody else, but when I was a kid I knew of a lot of Girl Scout activities that wound up being 'girls plus like two girls' brothers' and that seemed to usually work out okay; get beyond those sorts of numbers and they could still have separate troops but share the admin expenses, campgrounds, insurance bills, etc.
posted by Sequence at 10:28 AM on May 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
Scouts Canada is already co-ed. The girls in my sons' scouting group are routinely amongst the highest achieving and most involved of the kids.
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:29 AM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:29 AM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
What I hear from Utah is that the LDS Scouting program is a joke, and far less rigorous for the Eagle Scout requirement than other troops. Also since the leaders are assigned as an LDS "calling" by the local Bishop, they are likely to be less trained and motivated, leading to danger sometimes for the kids on campouts and hikes.
I can attest to this. I was on my way to Eagle and it's pretty much because I was born LDS. I barely remember doing any real service projects beyond the sorts of things the LDS do anyway, like clean up church or temple grounds or go sing hymns at someone's house who was sick and maybe help in their yard or something.
We didn't do a lot of actual hiking, either. We mostly did a lot of very traditional good old American car camping, complete with a lot of heavy Coleman two-burner stoves, Bisquick pancakes, goopy-burnt dutch oven cobblers and the like.
On the danger to self and others side of things I remember a fair amount of bullying and weird posturing and favoritism.
But one incident in particular stands out. Man, I haven't thought about this in years.
We were on a hike out near Anzo-Borrego apparently trying to replicate a segment of the Mormon Battalion march, which is it's own level of "What the fuck?" now that I really think about it.
We were even trying to replicate the part where they carried nothing but hard tack, dried meat and a limited amount of water to really experience the hardship - which is an incredibly stupid and pointless thing to do in the middle of the desert.
Anyway. on this hike one of the exceptionalist kids favored by the leadership of my troop/church was being a proper jerk for most of the trip. Like he spit water from his canteen in my face at one point and kept trying to shove people into bushes kind of a jerk.
We're hiking along an wide, flat wash and arroyo that if I'm remembering correctly is off trail, ostensibly further recreating the experience of the hardship of the march. Transecting an arroyo or wash is indeed a lot harder than hiking a packed, groomed trail - which is also kind of really dumb to be doing with a bunch of teenagers.
The jerky kid started hurtling random bushes, stomping and crashing many of them. He was warned not to do that by several people. It didn't take long for him to come down with both feet and stomping knee deep in a really nasty patch of bottlebrush/chollo cactus hiding behind a sage.
Which promptly and quite surgically stapled and sutured his new boots to his feet in about a thousand different places, along with a sizeable portion of his pants.
And that was the day we learned how to try and fail to remove a bunch of cactus thorns with little more than a pocket knife and our troop leaders demonstrated how to do a fireman's carry for several miles of broken, sandy wash because good luck making a litter out of a creosote bush like the Boy Scout Handbook suggests one might be able to do to rescue someone.
posted by loquacious at 10:30 AM on May 12, 2017 [10 favorites]
I can attest to this. I was on my way to Eagle and it's pretty much because I was born LDS. I barely remember doing any real service projects beyond the sorts of things the LDS do anyway, like clean up church or temple grounds or go sing hymns at someone's house who was sick and maybe help in their yard or something.
We didn't do a lot of actual hiking, either. We mostly did a lot of very traditional good old American car camping, complete with a lot of heavy Coleman two-burner stoves, Bisquick pancakes, goopy-burnt dutch oven cobblers and the like.
On the danger to self and others side of things I remember a fair amount of bullying and weird posturing and favoritism.
But one incident in particular stands out. Man, I haven't thought about this in years.
We were on a hike out near Anzo-Borrego apparently trying to replicate a segment of the Mormon Battalion march, which is it's own level of "What the fuck?" now that I really think about it.
We were even trying to replicate the part where they carried nothing but hard tack, dried meat and a limited amount of water to really experience the hardship - which is an incredibly stupid and pointless thing to do in the middle of the desert.
Anyway. on this hike one of the exceptionalist kids favored by the leadership of my troop/church was being a proper jerk for most of the trip. Like he spit water from his canteen in my face at one point and kept trying to shove people into bushes kind of a jerk.
We're hiking along an wide, flat wash and arroyo that if I'm remembering correctly is off trail, ostensibly further recreating the experience of the hardship of the march. Transecting an arroyo or wash is indeed a lot harder than hiking a packed, groomed trail - which is also kind of really dumb to be doing with a bunch of teenagers.
The jerky kid started hurtling random bushes, stomping and crashing many of them. He was warned not to do that by several people. It didn't take long for him to come down with both feet and stomping knee deep in a really nasty patch of bottlebrush/chollo cactus hiding behind a sage.
Which promptly and quite surgically stapled and sutured his new boots to his feet in about a thousand different places, along with a sizeable portion of his pants.
And that was the day we learned how to try and fail to remove a bunch of cactus thorns with little more than a pocket knife and our troop leaders demonstrated how to do a fireman's carry for several miles of broken, sandy wash because good luck making a litter out of a creosote bush like the Boy Scout Handbook suggests one might be able to do to rescue someone.
posted by loquacious at 10:30 AM on May 12, 2017 [10 favorites]
Yep, ex-Mormon, ex-Scout here. Happy to see the two organizations separated from each other. I might actually let my son join them now if he expresses interest.
I also have the fond and not-fond memories of my time in Mormon Scouts. We peed on fires as well, had snipe hunts that turned into brawls. One water fight turned into an egg fight turned into a rotten meat fight that only stopped when one victim of bullying started chasing his bullies around with a hatchet.
posted by ga$money at 10:39 AM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
I also have the fond and not-fond memories of my time in Mormon Scouts. We peed on fires as well, had snipe hunts that turned into brawls. One water fight turned into an egg fight turned into a rotten meat fight that only stopped when one victim of bullying started chasing his bullies around with a hatchet.
posted by ga$money at 10:39 AM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
Scouts Canada is already co-ed.
It's not at all without controversy though. What happened was Scouts Canada went co-ed alone. There was no merger or even agreement with Girl Guides of Canada. So now new girls filter into one or the other. It's been good for Scouting, but hard on the Guides. I'd argue that a merger or association might have left less bad feeling, but I don't know how possible that would have been.
posted by bonehead at 10:43 AM on May 12, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's not at all without controversy though. What happened was Scouts Canada went co-ed alone. There was no merger or even agreement with Girl Guides of Canada. So now new girls filter into one or the other. It's been good for Scouting, but hard on the Guides. I'd argue that a merger or association might have left less bad feeling, but I don't know how possible that would have been.
posted by bonehead at 10:43 AM on May 12, 2017 [5 favorites]
Where's the peeing story? Sounds like a good one!
Does Trump have to come up in every thread?
(And Greg Nog, we pronounce it like "ah-boot".)
The tone of scouting depends very much on its leaders. My experience with the Cub Scouts in Canada was very positive, partly because one leader had come up through the alternative-to-Scouts Boys Brigade as a teen, and partly because they all kept each other motivated to make it interesting for the kids. My experience after graduating to full Scouts, with a completely different group, was like night and day.
The Canadian experience may be different, though. Even in the 70s it was secular: we had seven different religions in our suburban-Montreal Cubs pack (all three Big Abrahamics, a few Buddhists, one Shinto kid, a Parsi, and a Baha'i, and that's not counting the Cubs whose families weren't religious) and I don't remember that anyone gave a flying about it. Hard to tell as a kid, I suppose, but I'm pretty sure about that.
posted by Quindar Beep at 10:52 AM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
Does Trump have to come up in every thread?
(And Greg Nog, we pronounce it like "ah-boot".)
The tone of scouting depends very much on its leaders. My experience with the Cub Scouts in Canada was very positive, partly because one leader had come up through the alternative-to-Scouts Boys Brigade as a teen, and partly because they all kept each other motivated to make it interesting for the kids. My experience after graduating to full Scouts, with a completely different group, was like night and day.
The Canadian experience may be different, though. Even in the 70s it was secular: we had seven different religions in our suburban-Montreal Cubs pack (all three Big Abrahamics, a few Buddhists, one Shinto kid, a Parsi, and a Baha'i, and that's not counting the Cubs whose families weren't religious) and I don't remember that anyone gave a flying about it. Hard to tell as a kid, I suppose, but I'm pretty sure about that.
posted by Quindar Beep at 10:52 AM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, in my experience scouting in Canada is secular.
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:14 AM on May 12, 2017
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:14 AM on May 12, 2017
It's not at all without controversy though.
First I've heard of that. Scouts Canada has been completely co-ed for about 20 years now.
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:15 AM on May 12, 2017
First I've heard of that. Scouts Canada has been completely co-ed for about 20 years now.
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:15 AM on May 12, 2017
The fascinating thing from the article I find is
posted by corb at 11:20 AM on May 12, 2017
The church said the decision wasn’t triggered by the Boy Scouts’ policy change in 2015 to allow gay troop leaders. Mormon troops are allowed to run their groups to adhere to church teachings.So it sounds like Mormon troops were given exemptions from the more inclusive policies, and will still be for their younger scouts. So I'm really curious why the move for the older teens.
posted by corb at 11:20 AM on May 12, 2017
I was a Scout in the early 80s. It's odd because a lot of the criticisms of Scouting I've read in recent years are completely at odds with my experiences. But it must be said that I was a Scout in extremely liberal Newton, Massachusetts, my extremely liberal atheist father was the Scoutmaster, and this must have been before the organization began to be taken over by the LDS church. My troop was, for the most part, focused on hiking, camping and other outdoor activities, and very few of us ever progressed to Eagle (I topped out at Life Scout). One thing my father remarked on, and which I also observed, is that the vast majority of those who did become Eagle Scouts were driven and assisted in that process by their parents. In the seven or so years my father was a Scoutmaster, he said that only one Eagle Scout in the troop was actually self-motivated and did all the work himself.
posted by slkinsey at 11:54 AM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 11:54 AM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
even as an 11 year old who wouldn't have known the keywords to describe political positions, the the creepy right-wing tone and military fetishism of the local BSA groups drove me to run for the hills.
That's sad, especially as Robert Baden-Powell, the founder of scouting, wrote Scouting for Boys specifically as a non-military alternative to his military manual, Aids to Scouting, because he'd heard that boys had been picking up the latter. Not that that kept various military branches from recruiting from the Scouts; getting the Eagle Scout rank allows one to enlist at a higher pay grade.
I'd had a pretty decent experience in scout troops in small town Wisconsin; less so in Chicago, where I dropped out after about six months because the scouts in my local troop were mostly dicks. I'd later convert my uniform into a "Punk Skouts of America" costume for Halloween, complete with my old merit badges seeming to be safety-pinned directly to my arm.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:19 PM on May 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's sad, especially as Robert Baden-Powell, the founder of scouting, wrote Scouting for Boys specifically as a non-military alternative to his military manual, Aids to Scouting, because he'd heard that boys had been picking up the latter. Not that that kept various military branches from recruiting from the Scouts; getting the Eagle Scout rank allows one to enlist at a higher pay grade.
I'd had a pretty decent experience in scout troops in small town Wisconsin; less so in Chicago, where I dropped out after about six months because the scouts in my local troop were mostly dicks. I'd later convert my uniform into a "Punk Skouts of America" costume for Halloween, complete with my old merit badges seeming to be safety-pinned directly to my arm.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:19 PM on May 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's not only those outside the LDS organization who are applauding this--and it's interesting to see the variety of perspectives. I read a lengthy post from an LDS friend on Facebook last night cheering the decision. She has a toddler-aged son and was dreading the years he would have been expected to join scouts because at the cub scout level, at least, the programs are mostly run by overworked and stressed moms, rather than the men who generally run it at the higher levels. She feels like she's been let off the hook for a job she doesn't want--and the church is *very* good at overworking the women in the organization. The second point she raised is that finally the church is looking at providing an equal amount of funding to the girls' programs as the boys' programs. The girls historically got the short end of the stick on that. There were dozens of comments on her post--most of them from LDS mothers who are also relieved.
posted by weeyin at 12:20 PM on May 12, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by weeyin at 12:20 PM on May 12, 2017 [8 favorites]
I bounced out of scouting about the time when I started to need signatures from my (not LDS) clergy people to advance. I didn't really understand what one had to do with the other. Other than churches having a lot of available meeting space I still don't see why they need to be connected (and I'm glad that our current Girl Scout troops have stuck to the fun parts of scouting).
And what boy in his right mind has ever looked at a campfire and not wanted to piss it out? How is that not a universal coming of age story? I mean, I didn't do it in a big group and I waited till everyone else went to bed, but other than that, it's about as common sense as whizzing in a utility tub in the laundry room when you don't feel like walking upstairs to the real toilet. If you have a hose and a fire, you're already halfway there.
posted by mattamatic at 12:24 PM on May 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
And what boy in his right mind has ever looked at a campfire and not wanted to piss it out? How is that not a universal coming of age story? I mean, I didn't do it in a big group and I waited till everyone else went to bed, but other than that, it's about as common sense as whizzing in a utility tub in the laundry room when you don't feel like walking upstairs to the real toilet. If you have a hose and a fire, you're already halfway there.
posted by mattamatic at 12:24 PM on May 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
As an ex-Mormon, I had a generally positive experience with my LDS troop, though it probably helps that I lived outside of Utah at the time. Echoing that the whole Eagle scout thing tends to end up being something less-than-spectacular for LDS troops as it's pushed by leaders and such rather than being something scouts are allowed to go after of their own initiative.
As to why they're making this change, this is only a guess, but I suspect that Scouting isn't doing enough toindoctrinate^W prepare young men for missions, and given how important proselytizing is for its continued growth (read: greater intake of tithing money), it makes a lot of sense to me that they'd want to switch to a program with a lower secular emphasis. They've already been doing a number of things to try to increase the missionary pool, like lowering the mission age from 19 to 18 (so they aren't tempted to go to college instead), so this seems like a pretty obvious next step.
posted by Aleyn at 1:13 PM on May 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
As to why they're making this change, this is only a guess, but I suspect that Scouting isn't doing enough to
posted by Aleyn at 1:13 PM on May 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
"So it sounds like Mormon troops were given exemptions from the more inclusive policies, and will still be for their younger scouts. So I'm really curious why the move for the older teens."
My (probably specious) hypothesis would be that since there's been an increase in men in their 20s and 30s leaving the church, the church probably wants to spend more time developing a retention program for younger men, and that their philosophical differences with BSA are most pressing at that time.
posted by klangklangston at 4:27 PM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
My (probably specious) hypothesis would be that since there's been an increase in men in their 20s and 30s leaving the church, the church probably wants to spend more time developing a retention program for younger men, and that their philosophical differences with BSA are most pressing at that time.
posted by klangklangston at 4:27 PM on May 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
I have a combined total of 15 years in GSA as scout and leader. I think it would be great if we merged on the administrative level, but I'd hate to see co-ed troops. GSA has been great with inclusiveness, but program-wise, it's moved away from the more outdoorsy practical aspects I had as a scout. BSA is great with the outdoorsy stuff, less so with inclusiveness (though they've made steps in the right direction). From a high-level view, there is a lot the two orgs could teach other, and I'd be thrilled, actually, if the programming was similar. Teach boys how to sew! Teach girls how to fix cars! (TBF, there is a car maintenance badge in my daughter's age group.) So make the badges less gendered and have the same badges for GSA and BSA, but keep the troops separated by gender identity. Mostly because GSA can give girls a safe space to be badass.
posted by Ruki at 4:28 PM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 4:28 PM on May 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
"Yeah, in my experience scouting in Canada is secular."
Unfortunately, one of the things that drove me out of Guiding (in the 1990s) was the leader of my Pathfinder troop telling me that it was fine for my Jewish friend to be a member, since she believed in God, but that as an Atheist I didn't have a place in Guiding. I think we had been talking about me working towards the Canadian Unitarian Council version of the Religion In Life badge, which led to me having to explain to her what Unitarian-Universalism is (it's not as common in Canada as it is in the U.S.), and I must have said something about how you could even be Atheist/Secular-Humanist (like me) and also be a Unitarian-Universalist. Oops.
I'd been quietly skipping the "do my duty to God" part of the Promise for years, and feeling mildly guilty about fudging it. My best friend had refused to join Brownies at all because she was so uncomfortable with being expected to say that line - which is pretty strong minded for a seven year old, when you think about it. I'm glad the Girl Guides of Canada have since changed it to "to be true to myself, [and] my beliefs", which is so much more inclusive.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 4:34 PM on May 12, 2017 [11 favorites]
Unfortunately, one of the things that drove me out of Guiding (in the 1990s) was the leader of my Pathfinder troop telling me that it was fine for my Jewish friend to be a member, since she believed in God, but that as an Atheist I didn't have a place in Guiding. I think we had been talking about me working towards the Canadian Unitarian Council version of the Religion In Life badge, which led to me having to explain to her what Unitarian-Universalism is (it's not as common in Canada as it is in the U.S.), and I must have said something about how you could even be Atheist/Secular-Humanist (like me) and also be a Unitarian-Universalist. Oops.
I'd been quietly skipping the "do my duty to God" part of the Promise for years, and feeling mildly guilty about fudging it. My best friend had refused to join Brownies at all because she was so uncomfortable with being expected to say that line - which is pretty strong minded for a seven year old, when you think about it. I'm glad the Girl Guides of Canada have since changed it to "to be true to myself, [and] my beliefs", which is so much more inclusive.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 4:34 PM on May 12, 2017 [11 favorites]
""Teacher and Priest Activity Program"."
I would just like to note in passing that this is an absolutely terrible name. Not quite this recruiting poster bad? But pretty bad.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:25 PM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
I would just like to note in passing that this is an absolutely terrible name. Not quite this recruiting poster bad? But pretty bad.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:25 PM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
It seems like plenty of other folks have chimed in, but I just wanted to say that I actually would believe the church/PR department when it says that it's not really driven by teh gayz.
In my experience as a former Mormon/former scout, I would agree that the way the LDS church runs scouting makes it very different than how non-LDS troops are run, and generally for the worse.
So, my experience is that in any given LDS ward/troop combination, there are go-getters who race to Eagle ASAP (like, as soon as the age limitations will physically allow...), there are folks who will straggle to get Eagle by their 18th birthday because their parents make them, and then there will be a number of youth who want nothing to do with scouting but are heckled to do so because they are in the young men's program and scouting is What Young Men Do.
This change doesn't really seem like that big of a change, but simply a reflection of what was already happening on the ground. The go-getters will still get it as soon as possible (and the church newsroom statement says it will support folks after 13 who still want to go for Eagle). Parents will still force some kids. The only the that changes is the church won't heckle the kids who don't care.
But really...by phrasing it as removing Varsity and Venture, it seems like even less of a change: Varsity? The church really wasn't doing that. Venture? The church *certainly* wasn't doing this -- no girls allowed in LDS scout troops. I mean, I can only speak for my one ward/troop experience, but I'd be very surprised if there were other wards participating in either program. We just had Boy Scouts throughout.
posted by subversiveasset at 10:22 PM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
In my experience as a former Mormon/former scout, I would agree that the way the LDS church runs scouting makes it very different than how non-LDS troops are run, and generally for the worse.
So, my experience is that in any given LDS ward/troop combination, there are go-getters who race to Eagle ASAP (like, as soon as the age limitations will physically allow...), there are folks who will straggle to get Eagle by their 18th birthday because their parents make them, and then there will be a number of youth who want nothing to do with scouting but are heckled to do so because they are in the young men's program and scouting is What Young Men Do.
This change doesn't really seem like that big of a change, but simply a reflection of what was already happening on the ground. The go-getters will still get it as soon as possible (and the church newsroom statement says it will support folks after 13 who still want to go for Eagle). Parents will still force some kids. The only the that changes is the church won't heckle the kids who don't care.
But really...by phrasing it as removing Varsity and Venture, it seems like even less of a change: Varsity? The church really wasn't doing that. Venture? The church *certainly* wasn't doing this -- no girls allowed in LDS scout troops. I mean, I can only speak for my one ward/troop experience, but I'd be very surprised if there were other wards participating in either program. We just had Boy Scouts throughout.
posted by subversiveasset at 10:22 PM on May 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also since the leaders are assigned as an LDS "calling" by the local Bishop, they are likely to be less trained and motivated, leading to danger sometimes for the kids on campouts and hikes.
Umm, yeah. I had one formative experience on a Mormon scout campout. We had to hike a mile in, but the scoutmasters drove there in cars.
While whittling I managed to slice my hand open with a sharp knife. I run to Scoutmaster #1, spurting blood, and his eyes light up like he's HAPPY and he runs back to his tent, then comes out a moment later and says "I brought this sewing kit! We can stitch it together."
What happened next was the first time in my entire life I yelled at an adult. First I yelled Scoutmaster #2's name as loudly as possible until he came out, then I said "No, here's what's going to happen. I'm going to apply DIRECT PRESSURE and if that doesn't stop the bleeding HE's going to apply pressure to a PRESSURE POINT and if the bleeding doesn't stop then HE's going to apply a tourniquet and drive me to the nearest HOSPITAL."
Thankfully direct pressure worked and the hospital wasn't needed, but Scoutmaster #1 didn't talk to me the rest of the 3-day camp.
I do have to thank the Boy Scout Handbook for teaching me the proper first aid to yell at him, though.
posted by mmoncur at 11:22 PM on May 12, 2017 [21 favorites]
Umm, yeah. I had one formative experience on a Mormon scout campout. We had to hike a mile in, but the scoutmasters drove there in cars.
While whittling I managed to slice my hand open with a sharp knife. I run to Scoutmaster #1, spurting blood, and his eyes light up like he's HAPPY and he runs back to his tent, then comes out a moment later and says "I brought this sewing kit! We can stitch it together."
What happened next was the first time in my entire life I yelled at an adult. First I yelled Scoutmaster #2's name as loudly as possible until he came out, then I said "No, here's what's going to happen. I'm going to apply DIRECT PRESSURE and if that doesn't stop the bleeding HE's going to apply pressure to a PRESSURE POINT and if the bleeding doesn't stop then HE's going to apply a tourniquet and drive me to the nearest HOSPITAL."
Thankfully direct pressure worked and the hospital wasn't needed, but Scoutmaster #1 didn't talk to me the rest of the 3-day camp.
I do have to thank the Boy Scout Handbook for teaching me the proper first aid to yell at him, though.
posted by mmoncur at 11:22 PM on May 12, 2017 [21 favorites]
I had no idea there were that many Mormons outside the United States.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:51 AM on May 13, 2017
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:51 AM on May 13, 2017
It's GSUSA, not GSA.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:46 PM on May 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:46 PM on May 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is this where all the religiosity in the BSA came from? When I was involved in Scouting in the late 1970s and early 1980s, there was no overt references to religion. The Troop in our town seems focused on Christianity.
posted by AJScease at 3:21 PM on May 13, 2017
posted by AJScease at 3:21 PM on May 13, 2017
aw. my dad always got a kick out of doing the BSA stuff with my brother (my brother was somewhat less enthused), but now that dad has to do all the local mormon-wrangling, I think he met this news with a lot of relief. I guess it's a church-wide rule that scoutmasters are not burdened with much sense. or a very tight grasp on reality.
posted by floweringjudas at 5:39 PM on May 13, 2017
posted by floweringjudas at 5:39 PM on May 13, 2017
Bye bye LDS. It's in threads like these where I absolutely relish recounting that my scoutmaster in 1990s South Dakota was a woman, and one of the first female scoutmasters ever, at least as far as we knew at the time. I'd love to see the Mormons try to grapple with that.
posted by Dokterrock at 3:13 AM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Dokterrock at 3:13 AM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
When I was involved in Scouting in the late 1970s and early 1980s, there was no overt references to religion.
Maybe you just never noticed them because overt references to religion were commonplace everywhere? I don't know about the BSA, but up in Scouts Canada in the eighties and nineties, we definitely had to swear to do our duty to God (and the Queen, YMMV) every week. It's not like we were signing up for the Crusades or anything, but God was definitely in the mix.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:38 PM on May 14, 2017
Maybe you just never noticed them because overt references to religion were commonplace everywhere? I don't know about the BSA, but up in Scouts Canada in the eighties and nineties, we definitely had to swear to do our duty to God (and the Queen, YMMV) every week. It's not like we were signing up for the Crusades or anything, but God was definitely in the mix.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:38 PM on May 14, 2017
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posted by Punkey at 9:27 AM on May 12, 2017 [83 favorites]