Tragedy in Manchester
May 24, 2017 3:05 AM Subscribe
Twenty-two people were killed and sixty-four injured in suicide bombing at Manchester Arena on Monday night. Nine victims (including an eight-year-old girl) have been named so far. The bombing occurred after a concert by Ariana Grande that was attended by many children and teens. In response, the government has raised the threat level to Critical. The name of the attacker, who is thought to not have been acting alone, was released by police after it was first leaked by US officials. The leak of the attacker's identity has put a strain on US-UK intelligence sharing, since it may have hampered further investigations.
I was at a concert the previous weekend attended by maybe 60,000 people. During my time waiting in line and in the crowd, I met three pairs of men about my age with 17-18 year old sons at the show with them and it was their son's first real big show. One of the boys was standing near me on the field close to the secondary stage out in the crowd, and all of us in the crowd there encouraged him to charm his way up to the rail, and he did! He came back beaming about how the lead singer had sung RIGHT AT HIM and he was just glowing from his first really big concert experience. I lost track of the other two father-son pairs during getting into the stadium, which isn't surprising.
All I've been able to think about since this attack has been what a bomb going off in the lobby of that stadium would have meant. Holy shit.
I won't stop going to concerts, but fuck those people for wanting to scare me off from going to concerts.
posted by hippybear at 3:11 AM on May 24, 2017 [31 favorites]
All I've been able to think about since this attack has been what a bomb going off in the lobby of that stadium would have meant. Holy shit.
I won't stop going to concerts, but fuck those people for wanting to scare me off from going to concerts.
posted by hippybear at 3:11 AM on May 24, 2017 [31 favorites]
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posted by clavdivs at 3:15 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 3:15 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
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Journalist Lauren Duca received an email from a 23-year old Manchester resident. Tweet contains a screenshot; click the image and that should enlarge it. Duca also wrote this: "On Choosing Love in the Wake of the Manchester Terror Attack."
posted by one teak forest at 3:22 AM on May 24, 2017 [14 favorites]
Journalist Lauren Duca received an email from a 23-year old Manchester resident. Tweet contains a screenshot; click the image and that should enlarge it. Duca also wrote this: "On Choosing Love in the Wake of the Manchester Terror Attack."
posted by one teak forest at 3:22 AM on May 24, 2017 [14 favorites]
Martyn Hett has just been confirmed as one of the victims. He loved his mum.
posted by kariebookish at 3:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [51 favorites]
posted by kariebookish at 3:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [51 favorites]
Well, that's that for the Labour resurgency. This is now a National Security Election, with all that entails. All those uniformed soldiers with submachine guns at the polling stations will subliminally reinforce that; as a result, many of the voters who were starting to doubt May's programme or think that maybe, compared to it, Corbyn was not so unthinkable as a PM, will, in the privacy of the polling booth, vote Tory. After all, times like this need Strength and Stability.
Given the Tories' extreme agenda being given a mandate in this election (everything from Russian/Iranian-style internet regulation to replacing all voting systems with first-past-the-post and imposing strict voter-ID requirements, to the likelihood of a massive power grab in the Great Repeal Bill; they even snuck in legalising the ivory trade, just because they can), this is looking like the Reichstag Fire and its antecedent Enabling Act.
posted by acb at 3:30 AM on May 24, 2017 [21 favorites]
Given the Tories' extreme agenda being given a mandate in this election (everything from Russian/Iranian-style internet regulation to replacing all voting systems with first-past-the-post and imposing strict voter-ID requirements, to the likelihood of a massive power grab in the Great Repeal Bill; they even snuck in legalising the ivory trade, just because they can), this is looking like the Reichstag Fire and its antecedent Enabling Act.
posted by acb at 3:30 AM on May 24, 2017 [21 favorites]
While I understand your metaphor, I still find its ripples and echoes troubling and without foundation in this particular incident.
posted by hippybear at 3:33 AM on May 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:33 AM on May 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
The Manchester Evening News has set up a crowdfunding campaign to help the victims of the bombing and their families.
posted by pxe2000 at 3:38 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 3:38 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
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posted by Foci for Analysis at 3:47 AM on May 24, 2017
posted by Foci for Analysis at 3:47 AM on May 24, 2017
The Manchester Evening News has set up a crowdfunding campaign to help the victims of the bombing and their families.
The MEN campaign (which has raised nearly £1m already!) have just announced they're passing it on to the Red Cross campaign. Donating directly there may cut out JustGiving's fee? (5%?)
posted by firesine at 3:55 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
The MEN campaign (which has raised nearly £1m already!) have just announced they're passing it on to the Red Cross campaign. Donating directly there may cut out JustGiving's fee? (5%?)
posted by firesine at 3:55 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
The public response in Manchester has been incredible. The vigil, locals offering their time and donations at the reception centre, open doors and support from all quarters. Communities pulling together, strength and defiance.
The strongest sense of 'they picked the wrong city'. "Have us Northerners cowering in fear? You bastards can't even stop us shopping." Manchester knows terror and knows recovery.
That Mancunian way to survive and to thrive and to work and to build, to connect, and create and Greater Manchester’s greatness is keeping it great.
posted by firesine at 4:13 AM on May 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
The strongest sense of 'they picked the wrong city'. "Have us Northerners cowering in fear? You bastards can't even stop us shopping." Manchester knows terror and knows recovery.
That Mancunian way to survive and to thrive and to work and to build, to connect, and create and Greater Manchester’s greatness is keeping it great.
posted by firesine at 4:13 AM on May 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
I spent my formative years in Manchester, Mancunians are tough and resilient. This attack targeted an audience with a very high proportion of young girls and I fear for the backlash which will be what the perpetrators wanted to provoke.
The US authorities, as seems to be the new normal, leaked information about the investigation into those responsible.
posted by epo at 4:14 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
The US authorities, as seems to be the new normal, leaked information about the investigation into those responsible.
posted by epo at 4:14 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
> Martyn Hett has just been confirmed as one of the victims. He loved his mum.
I know Martyn's brother via the slorum. Watching his eventual discovery unfold has been heart-wrenching. Seriously, fuck any ideology that says this is any kind of ok.
posted by davelog at 4:21 AM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
I know Martyn's brother via the slorum. Watching his eventual discovery unfold has been heart-wrenching. Seriously, fuck any ideology that says this is any kind of ok.
posted by davelog at 4:21 AM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
this is looking like the Reichstag Fire
I don't for a second think the bunch of idiots in government are anywhere competent enough for anything this sneaky. It's just opportunism.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't for a second think the bunch of idiots in government are anywhere competent enough for anything this sneaky. It's just opportunism.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
This attack targeted an audience with a very high proportion of young girls..
.. and women and gay men. Young girls, women and gay men.
I keep coming back to the same thought: we really need to start looking at young men and the idea of masculinity. I know this isn't the received wisdom in the media or in internet fora ("they hate our freedoms" is the standard line, I guess and it's so easy just to file everything under this notion) but this thing about young men and toxic masculinity keeps circling around in my head.
posted by kariebookish at 4:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [92 favorites]
.. and women and gay men. Young girls, women and gay men.
I keep coming back to the same thought: we really need to start looking at young men and the idea of masculinity. I know this isn't the received wisdom in the media or in internet fora ("they hate our freedoms" is the standard line, I guess and it's so easy just to file everything under this notion) but this thing about young men and toxic masculinity keeps circling around in my head.
posted by kariebookish at 4:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [92 favorites]
Howard Jacobson wrote an op-ed piece in The New York Times and it resonated with me quite a bit.
“Too cruel anywhere. Any attack on the innocent, whatever the location, whatever the time, and whatever the ideology it serves, offends us to our very souls. But a bomb whose target is the innocent young — children leaving a concert, excitedly full of what they’d seen, looking for their parents who had come to take them home — is outrage piled upon outrage.posted by Fizz at 4:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Twenty-two are dead, at least 50 others injured, in last night’s terrorist attack at a concert venue in central Manchester. With every hour, we hear another fraught eye-witness account, learn of another father or mother in despair, another child still to be accounted for. I have family in Manchester. They are all right. But it isn’t only for oneself one worries. For others, too, the heart will break.”
Thank you for making the post. This is heartbreaking.
......................
posted by ellieBOA at 4:28 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
......................
posted by ellieBOA at 4:28 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'll come back and RTFT but just wanted to say that this leak should really be the nail in the coffin of the boundaries of trust. Orangehead leaking is still understandable given his competence levels, but this is egregious provocation.
posted by infini at 4:29 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by infini at 4:29 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
At least four of the victims were parents who had gone with or who had come to collect their children from the concert. Unbelievable what their families are going through right now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:39 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:39 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am so tired of all this shit. And kind of numb to it as well, which bothers me.
posted by jonmc at 4:48 AM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 4:48 AM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm actually not totally clear what exactly happened with the leaking, given that in the OP link the Guardian says that UK journalists already knew the name but that the UK government and police simply hadn't confirmed it yet. If the "10,000 reporters descending on the bomber’s house" really were holding back until either the UK or the US government appeared to issue a confirmation, I'm more impressed with UK journalism than I'd been led to think I should be.
Not that I wouldn't expect the US government to disclose information given to it in confidence by allies, but I wonder if this could mean that the kind of incompetence we're talking about here was US officials repeating with authority unconfirmed information they'd gotten from non-intelligence sources. And/or unintelligent sources such as anyone from the White House.
(Oops...I was replying to a comment about leaking which has been deleted, so mods please delete this if appropriate.)
posted by XMLicious at 4:50 AM on May 24, 2017
Not that I wouldn't expect the US government to disclose information given to it in confidence by allies, but I wonder if this could mean that the kind of incompetence we're talking about here was US officials repeating with authority unconfirmed information they'd gotten from non-intelligence sources. And/or unintelligent sources such as anyone from the White House.
(Oops...I was replying to a comment about leaking which has been deleted, so mods please delete this if appropriate.)
posted by XMLicious at 4:50 AM on May 24, 2017
? nothing's been deleted. Maybe you were looking at a different thread. Let me know if I should delete your comment, XMLicious.
posted by taz at 4:59 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by taz at 4:59 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ahh, hadn't noticed the last link in the original post. Sorry for the repeat.
posted by epo at 5:00 AM on May 24, 2017
posted by epo at 5:00 AM on May 24, 2017
Are people buying May on this? She seems incredibly weak and floundering. She wants to put troops on street corners because why exactly?
Of course Brexit happened, so maybe people ARE that stupid.
posted by Artw at 5:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Of course Brexit happened, so maybe people ARE that stupid.
posted by Artw at 5:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
I went to Uni in Manchester and saw many a gig at the arena. I know exactly what that foyer is like and how it is located; I have been the (hopefully cool) older sister waiting there multiple times for my younger brothers and their friends to come out of seeing [band(s) that were amazing to 15/16/17 year old boys in the early 2000s] and take them back to my tiny halls of res to sleep like sardines on the floor.
I am heartbroken by this whole thing but so pleased that Manchester, a city I would happily move back too, is responding in the way they are.
posted by halcyonday at 5:38 AM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
I am heartbroken by this whole thing but so pleased that Manchester, a city I would happily move back too, is responding in the way they are.
posted by halcyonday at 5:38 AM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
"Members of his own family had even informed on him in the past, telling British authorities that he was dangerous."
All this is partially because big fancy electronic surveillance schemes let you give money to contractors, while just hiring and training conventional police investigators who actually go talk to people costs relatively little. Just some quotes from William Binney :
- "Sixteen months before the attacks on America, our organisation [Signit Automation Research Center – Sarc] was running a new method of finding terrorist networks that worked on focusing on ‘smart collection’. Their plan was rejected in favour of a much more expensive plan to collect all communications from everyone."
- "This approach costs lives, and has cost lives in Britain jay hickman is a goat because it inundates analysts with too much data. It is 99% useless. Who wants to know everyone who has ever [been] at Google or the BBC? We have known for decades that that swamps analysts,"
posted by jeffburdges at 5:46 AM on May 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
All this is partially because big fancy electronic surveillance schemes let you give money to contractors, while just hiring and training conventional police investigators who actually go talk to people costs relatively little. Just some quotes from William Binney :
- "Sixteen months before the attacks on America, our organisation [Signit Automation Research Center – Sarc] was running a new method of finding terrorist networks that worked on focusing on ‘smart collection’. Their plan was rejected in favour of a much more expensive plan to collect all communications from everyone."
- "This approach costs lives, and has cost lives in Britain jay hickman is a goat because it inundates analysts with too much data. It is 99% useless. Who wants to know everyone who has ever [been] at Google or the BBC? We have known for decades that that swamps analysts,"
posted by jeffburdges at 5:46 AM on May 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
Martyn Hett has just been confirmed as one of the victims. He loved his mum.
What an irrepressible guy he was. What a loss.
posted by rory at 5:50 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
What an irrepressible guy he was. What a loss.
posted by rory at 5:50 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
She wants to put troops on street corners because why exactly?
Because there aren't enough police, because... oh, well that's awkward.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:55 AM on May 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
Because there aren't enough police, because... oh, well that's awkward.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:55 AM on May 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
"This approach costs lives, and has cost lives in Britain jay hickman is a goat because it inundates analysts with too much data.
WTF kind of autocorrect cock-up is that?
posted by stonepharisee at 6:03 AM on May 24, 2017 [12 favorites]
WTF kind of autocorrect cock-up is that?
posted by stonepharisee at 6:03 AM on May 24, 2017 [12 favorites]
XMLicious, from the Guardian live blog:
The police and security services usually have good reasons for not disclosing information immediately to the media as they accumulate it. One of the main reasons is that it is helpful when investigating a suspect’s network of family, friends and colleagues not to alert them by disclosing the name. So it was awkward for the police when Abedi’s name was revealed by US officials in Washington to American journalists two hours before they disclosed it to the UK.
Earlier in the day, the security services had no plans to disclose the name and may only have done so because of the Americans.
There are other reasons. They do not want to reveal to those they are hunting – and their opponents in general – the extent of the information they hold and, sometimes, the techniques they use for gaining that information.
On a purely practical level, the police would have preferred time searching the home of Abedi and speaking to neighbours without the media descending on the location after the US released the name.
One of the basic tenets of intelligence sharing is that other agencies do not disclose it. The problem is that those intelligence agencies, whether the US or French, pass it upwards to their presidents, prime ministers and departmental ministers. In the past, that secrecy was usually respected.
But in quick succession, Donald Trump revealed to Russia information obtained by Israeli intelligence from a Middle East source, the US revealed UK intelligence about Abedi and now the French have done so too.
The temptation for the UK police and intelligence services would be to stop sharing some of that intelligence. But the UK relies so heavily on the sharing of intelligence from the US and also benefits from intelligence, especially on counter-terrorism, from European colleagues such as France and Germany.
posted by ellieBOA at 6:07 AM on May 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
The police and security services usually have good reasons for not disclosing information immediately to the media as they accumulate it. One of the main reasons is that it is helpful when investigating a suspect’s network of family, friends and colleagues not to alert them by disclosing the name. So it was awkward for the police when Abedi’s name was revealed by US officials in Washington to American journalists two hours before they disclosed it to the UK.
Earlier in the day, the security services had no plans to disclose the name and may only have done so because of the Americans.
There are other reasons. They do not want to reveal to those they are hunting – and their opponents in general – the extent of the information they hold and, sometimes, the techniques they use for gaining that information.
On a purely practical level, the police would have preferred time searching the home of Abedi and speaking to neighbours without the media descending on the location after the US released the name.
One of the basic tenets of intelligence sharing is that other agencies do not disclose it. The problem is that those intelligence agencies, whether the US or French, pass it upwards to their presidents, prime ministers and departmental ministers. In the past, that secrecy was usually respected.
But in quick succession, Donald Trump revealed to Russia information obtained by Israeli intelligence from a Middle East source, the US revealed UK intelligence about Abedi and now the French have done so too.
The temptation for the UK police and intelligence services would be to stop sharing some of that intelligence. But the UK relies so heavily on the sharing of intelligence from the US and also benefits from intelligence, especially on counter-terrorism, from European colleagues such as France and Germany.
posted by ellieBOA at 6:07 AM on May 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
WTF kind of autocorrect cock-up is that?
That's what we call a "someone who doesn't like Jay Hickman and knows how to edit a wiki" cock-up. The source of the original quote is goat-free.
posted by rory at 6:08 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
That's what we call a "someone who doesn't like Jay Hickman and knows how to edit a wiki" cock-up. The source of the original quote is goat-free.
posted by rory at 6:08 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
WTF kind of autocorrect cock-up is that?
It's WIki Vandalism. I'll fix it...
posted by pharm at 6:08 AM on May 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's WIki Vandalism. I'll fix it...
posted by pharm at 6:08 AM on May 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
This was a horrible, horrible attack. I'm not sure it makes sense to talk about gradations of awfulness when it comes to suicide bombings, but if it does then this is right up there. Sickening. I am so sad and sorry for those directly affected.
Beyond that - as someone living just outside Manchester the impact from this has been high. My wife is a school teacher, and an area liaison for SEN (special needs provision), and every school has a child that was there. Anecdotally many of them already had emotional difficulties. So yeah, the nature of her fan-base has somehow made this even sadder.
My daughter is 12. She grew watching "Sam and Cat" on Disney. I was going to take her to this concert, a ticket being part of her Xmas presents. Fortunately my frantic screen refreshing wasn't lucky. Just another way this resonates, all the parents I've talked to locally have been especially shaken by this one.
But I also know that I grew up in a small town to the south-west of Manchester and I used to meet friends in Manchester and Warrington to go shopping. Irish Catholics bombed both of those places, multiple times. I remember a bomb outside a McDonalds that killed two children having a particular impact on me, it was somewhere I'd been a week before.
I grew up hating Irish Catholics. If I'm honest its still a prejudice deep in me. I hope I can explain things to my daughter well enough that she doesn't develop similar feelings to Muslims. I'll been talking to her about relative risk. About her crossing the main road after the bus home from school being more dangerous than going to an evening event, even with fundamentalists in the world. She can't let them tell her how to think. She can't let them create fear or hate.
Same shit, different religion.
I don't really know what to say. If you've ever been to one of these events you'll know how many excited and joyful young people are there. Many of them enjoying their first taste of nightlife in a safe place. Just so very sad. But there is some truth to the cliche of the northern city - pretty stoic and gritted at the end of the day. Manchester is already rolling on. The streets aren't empty, people aren't in hysterics. The place has been bombed before and it'll be bombed again. I know that Sadiq Khan got a LOT of bad press (especially in the USA) for saying that terror attacks are “part and parcel of living in a big city” but that's a theme I've heard a lot from people yesterday, layered with the shock and sadness. I've got tickets for 2 upcoming "arena" events in the city - one at this location and one at another. The city will continue and my thoughts and sympathies are going to be with those families that don't have that choice.
(And on a final aside - I throw my utter contempt and scorn at the media for the "misery porn" they've been indulging in. Interviewing weeping mothers who have a missing child but haven't been formally tied to one of the ones lying in a hospital or morgue... shame on you. In the times to come that experience is going to make the whole thing even worse, those images aren't going to go away. Horribly exploitative.)
posted by samworm at 6:10 AM on May 24, 2017 [41 favorites]
Beyond that - as someone living just outside Manchester the impact from this has been high. My wife is a school teacher, and an area liaison for SEN (special needs provision), and every school has a child that was there. Anecdotally many of them already had emotional difficulties. So yeah, the nature of her fan-base has somehow made this even sadder.
My daughter is 12. She grew watching "Sam and Cat" on Disney. I was going to take her to this concert, a ticket being part of her Xmas presents. Fortunately my frantic screen refreshing wasn't lucky. Just another way this resonates, all the parents I've talked to locally have been especially shaken by this one.
But I also know that I grew up in a small town to the south-west of Manchester and I used to meet friends in Manchester and Warrington to go shopping. Irish Catholics bombed both of those places, multiple times. I remember a bomb outside a McDonalds that killed two children having a particular impact on me, it was somewhere I'd been a week before.
I grew up hating Irish Catholics. If I'm honest its still a prejudice deep in me. I hope I can explain things to my daughter well enough that she doesn't develop similar feelings to Muslims. I'll been talking to her about relative risk. About her crossing the main road after the bus home from school being more dangerous than going to an evening event, even with fundamentalists in the world. She can't let them tell her how to think. She can't let them create fear or hate.
Same shit, different religion.
I don't really know what to say. If you've ever been to one of these events you'll know how many excited and joyful young people are there. Many of them enjoying their first taste of nightlife in a safe place. Just so very sad. But there is some truth to the cliche of the northern city - pretty stoic and gritted at the end of the day. Manchester is already rolling on. The streets aren't empty, people aren't in hysterics. The place has been bombed before and it'll be bombed again. I know that Sadiq Khan got a LOT of bad press (especially in the USA) for saying that terror attacks are “part and parcel of living in a big city” but that's a theme I've heard a lot from people yesterday, layered with the shock and sadness. I've got tickets for 2 upcoming "arena" events in the city - one at this location and one at another. The city will continue and my thoughts and sympathies are going to be with those families that don't have that choice.
(And on a final aside - I throw my utter contempt and scorn at the media for the "misery porn" they've been indulging in. Interviewing weeping mothers who have a missing child but haven't been formally tied to one of the ones lying in a hospital or morgue... shame on you. In the times to come that experience is going to make the whole thing even worse, those images aren't going to go away. Horribly exploitative.)
posted by samworm at 6:10 AM on May 24, 2017 [41 favorites]
On the topic of media intrusion after a terror attack this Twitter thread is an important read.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 6:21 AM on May 24, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 6:21 AM on May 24, 2017 [11 favorites]
What sad news. My heart goes out to those affected.
Many years ago I was in the UK and ended up in a multi-hour lockdown because an IRA bomb was found just down the street and it took a while for the bomb squad people to take care of it. What I remember most is how calm everyone was about it. Partly, I assume, because at the time it was a relatively common event, but also there was a cultural aspect to the stoic response that I thought was strong and effective in that situation.
I regret how often the extremists succeed in creating extreme reactions that escalate conflicts -- it's a natural response, but just plays into their hands and creates incentives for more attacks.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:24 AM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Many years ago I was in the UK and ended up in a multi-hour lockdown because an IRA bomb was found just down the street and it took a while for the bomb squad people to take care of it. What I remember most is how calm everyone was about it. Partly, I assume, because at the time it was a relatively common event, but also there was a cultural aspect to the stoic response that I thought was strong and effective in that situation.
I regret how often the extremists succeed in creating extreme reactions that escalate conflicts -- it's a natural response, but just plays into their hands and creates incentives for more attacks.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:24 AM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
This attack targeted an audience with a very high proportion of young girls..
.. and women and gay men. Young girls, women and gay men.
ISIS wannabes and GamerGate/alt-right MRAs seem to have the same intrinsic motivations and views. The only difference is which banner their cultural background entitles them to commit their crimes under.
posted by acb at 6:35 AM on May 24, 2017 [28 favorites]
.. and women and gay men. Young girls, women and gay men.
ISIS wannabes and GamerGate/alt-right MRAs seem to have the same intrinsic motivations and views. The only difference is which banner their cultural background entitles them to commit their crimes under.
posted by acb at 6:35 AM on May 24, 2017 [28 favorites]
Zeynep Tufekci on ISIS media strategy and how news outlets enable it.
posted by roolya_boolya at 6:39 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by roolya_boolya at 6:39 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
The family of an old friend was at this concert. Thankfully not caught up in the bombing itself. Must have been an awful night for them.
roolya_boolya: Just like the media encourages spree killers to go on their killing sprees by guaranteeing the media coverage they crave, that will make them feel important. (I see the article makes the same point)
posted by pharm at 6:46 AM on May 24, 2017
roolya_boolya: Just like the media encourages spree killers to go on their killing sprees by guaranteeing the media coverage they crave, that will make them feel important. (I see the article makes the same point)
posted by pharm at 6:46 AM on May 24, 2017
Salman Abedi, Manchester Bomber, Most Likely Had Help, Officials Say: Mr. Abedi’s parents in Libya had become worried about his radicalization, and they had even seized the assailant’s British passport, according to a friend in Manchester, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he feared for his safety. Mr. Abedi had told his parents that he wanted to visit the holy Saudi city of Mecca, so they returned his passport. But instead of flying to Saudi Arabia, he returned home, the friend said.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
I live in south Manchester. I've been to the Arena (it's still, for some reason, the Nynex to me, which is what it was called in the '90s) more times than I can count. Walked through that lobby so many times at so many gigs and other events.
I'm enraged and I'm hurt and I feel utterly useless. Friends of mine, who live near the arena, helped the victims, let several sleep on their floor, searched for others (whose deaths have now, alas, been confirmed). I wasn't able to be there to help and somehow that's making the anger worse, like I'm less deserving of the grief than others.
And yet last night at the vigil everyone seemed so calm and together and resilient. I felt like an outsider; perhaps because I was there on my own; perhaps, because as an adoptive Manc, I'm not Manc enough.
Either way I'm proud of the city for forging ahead; I just wish I could share in the sense of community. I think part of me needs it.
posted by gmb at 6:58 AM on May 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
I'm enraged and I'm hurt and I feel utterly useless. Friends of mine, who live near the arena, helped the victims, let several sleep on their floor, searched for others (whose deaths have now, alas, been confirmed). I wasn't able to be there to help and somehow that's making the anger worse, like I'm less deserving of the grief than others.
And yet last night at the vigil everyone seemed so calm and together and resilient. I felt like an outsider; perhaps because I was there on my own; perhaps, because as an adoptive Manc, I'm not Manc enough.
Either way I'm proud of the city for forging ahead; I just wish I could share in the sense of community. I think part of me needs it.
posted by gmb at 6:58 AM on May 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
I've read that the suspected bomber was known to police. Maybe this is a criminal justice problem?
posted by My Dad at 6:59 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by My Dad at 6:59 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've read that the suspected bomber was known to police. Maybe this is a criminal justice problem?
A few thoughts on why in so many terrorist incidents, the attacker was 'known to authorities' & whether this constitutes an intel failure - @DavidWellsCTposted by EndsOfInvention at 7:04 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
[Twitter thread]
The goal is to divide Muslims living in the West from the rest of us. To drive the rest of us into paroxysms of incoherent rage and spite such that Muslims in the West are forced to choose between keeping their faith or joining up with their insane death cult.
It’s the Islamist version of the old Leninist idea of “heightening the contradictions” in order to hasten the revolution.
posted by pharm at 7:13 AM on May 24, 2017 [14 favorites]
It’s the Islamist version of the old Leninist idea of “heightening the contradictions” in order to hasten the revolution.
posted by pharm at 7:13 AM on May 24, 2017 [14 favorites]
Irish Catholics bombed both of those places, multiple times
No. The IRA bombed those places. Your prejudice towards Irish Catholics (and, apparently, Muslims) is evident in your attribution of these terrorist attacks. Just as "Muslims" did not bomb this concert, Irish Catholics did not bomb previous events. Neither group is a monolith, and your incorrect attribution makes your prejudice seem like a pre-existing condition in both cases.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:16 AM on May 24, 2017 [55 favorites]
No. The IRA bombed those places. Your prejudice towards Irish Catholics (and, apparently, Muslims) is evident in your attribution of these terrorist attacks. Just as "Muslims" did not bomb this concert, Irish Catholics did not bomb previous events. Neither group is a monolith, and your incorrect attribution makes your prejudice seem like a pre-existing condition in both cases.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:16 AM on May 24, 2017 [55 favorites]
It's heartbreaking. Utterly heartbreaking. I've been that little girl getting dressed up for my first Spice Girls concert and I've been the cool auntie taking my niblings to see One Direction and doubtless one day I'll be taking my own boy, probably to that very venue, to see his first gig. Fuck that fucking murderer and anyone who assisted him. So cruel an act,so very wicked.
Children's programme Newsround have an item for children upset by the news,
which is perfectly good advice for adults too.
If I can urge you to do one thing (if you are able to, and I know a lot of people are restricted for various good/not so good reasons) please do become a regular blood donor. A lot of people wanted to volunteer in the wake of this tragedy but a regular donation is much more helpful longterm. You get a biscuit and everything.
posted by threetwentytwo at 7:54 AM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Children's programme Newsround have an item for children upset by the news,
which is perfectly good advice for adults too.
If I can urge you to do one thing (if you are able to, and I know a lot of people are restricted for various good/not so good reasons) please do become a regular blood donor. A lot of people wanted to volunteer in the wake of this tragedy but a regular donation is much more helpful longterm. You get a biscuit and everything.
posted by threetwentytwo at 7:54 AM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
This was lovely [Twitter], as was this.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 7:58 AM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 7:58 AM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments removed; strolling into a thread about something awful that happened to let anybody know that you figured out the real deal with terrorism is basically a 100% bad decision every time, please don't.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:58 AM on May 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:58 AM on May 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
No. The IRA bombed those places. Your prejudice towards Irish Catholics (and, apparently, Muslims) is evident in your attribution of these terrorist attacks. Just as "Muslims" did not bomb this concert, Irish Catholics did not bomb previous events.
You're trying too hard to read things that aren't there. The people behind those bombings were most certainly Catholic (and in this case Muslim), and they most certainly self-identified their religions as a driving factor behind their actions. You may disagree with their interpretations of those religions, but that was their position. The IRA was an embodiment of the desire for an independent Irish republic, and a large part of that was a want for a Catholic homeland free from political and religious discrimination. To try and remove religion from the IRA's identity is ... well let's call that a stretch. The troubles are widely accepted to be "Sectarian Violence", I'm not sure what you think that means? It is one thing to say they don't represent Catholics, surly true and I would of course never say they did, but to deny they were Catholic enough to be described as Catholics?
This is extremely relevant because the biggest bomb detonated in Great Britain since World War II was in Manchester, less than a mile from the Arena, and placed by the IRA. We got past that, we'll get past this.
My comment specifically stated that I developed a background prejudice regarding Irish Catholics because they bombed my community when I was young and impressionable. I also said I'd moved past that, and was going to work to prevent my Daughter from developing a similar prejudice towards Muslims, as she lives in a time when people identifying as such are the ones causing harm.
I am totally capable of saying "A is a Muslim", and "A did this bombing" and also "Vanishing small numbers of Muslims want these bombings", on account of me possessing a functional understanding of the English language and nuance. But I didn't even say that. The word "Muslim" was used once in my comment and that was in a sentence stating I was going to make an effort to ensure that community was not unfairly tarred.
You've replied to a comment where I was giving a framing of how someone locally, with a young child, and who had grown up in a time of bombings, was feeling emotionally about this event. You read that, and my words of sympathy to the victims, and decided to attack my description of the perpetrators as being members of religious groups, even though the perpetrators repeatedly and loudly proclaim they are members of a religious group. You don't know me but you seem very quick to judge, what a deeply unfortunate way to behave.
posted by samworm at 8:03 AM on May 24, 2017 [42 favorites]
You're trying too hard to read things that aren't there. The people behind those bombings were most certainly Catholic (and in this case Muslim), and they most certainly self-identified their religions as a driving factor behind their actions. You may disagree with their interpretations of those religions, but that was their position. The IRA was an embodiment of the desire for an independent Irish republic, and a large part of that was a want for a Catholic homeland free from political and religious discrimination. To try and remove religion from the IRA's identity is ... well let's call that a stretch. The troubles are widely accepted to be "Sectarian Violence", I'm not sure what you think that means? It is one thing to say they don't represent Catholics, surly true and I would of course never say they did, but to deny they were Catholic enough to be described as Catholics?
This is extremely relevant because the biggest bomb detonated in Great Britain since World War II was in Manchester, less than a mile from the Arena, and placed by the IRA. We got past that, we'll get past this.
My comment specifically stated that I developed a background prejudice regarding Irish Catholics because they bombed my community when I was young and impressionable. I also said I'd moved past that, and was going to work to prevent my Daughter from developing a similar prejudice towards Muslims, as she lives in a time when people identifying as such are the ones causing harm.
I am totally capable of saying "A is a Muslim", and "A did this bombing" and also "Vanishing small numbers of Muslims want these bombings", on account of me possessing a functional understanding of the English language and nuance. But I didn't even say that. The word "Muslim" was used once in my comment and that was in a sentence stating I was going to make an effort to ensure that community was not unfairly tarred.
You've replied to a comment where I was giving a framing of how someone locally, with a young child, and who had grown up in a time of bombings, was feeling emotionally about this event. You read that, and my words of sympathy to the victims, and decided to attack my description of the perpetrators as being members of religious groups, even though the perpetrators repeatedly and loudly proclaim they are members of a religious group. You don't know me but you seem very quick to judge, what a deeply unfortunate way to behave.
posted by samworm at 8:03 AM on May 24, 2017 [42 favorites]
She approached everything with Christmas-morning levels of excitement: the very fact that she was out in town, after dark, on a school night; the meal beforehand at Pizza Express, where – thrillingly – we saw people who were also going to see Jessie J and who waved at us; the unimaginable bounty of the merchandise stall; the crowd screaming; the fact that she had seen the support act, a briefly popular boyband called Lawson, on TV. That kind of excitement is incredibly infectious. I was carried along with her.
This, from that Petridis article urbanwhaleshark linked to, just made me cry again. I don't think I'll ever forget the name Saffie Rose Roussos (the 8 year old who was killed).
posted by threetwentytwo at 8:10 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
This, from that Petridis article urbanwhaleshark linked to, just made me cry again. I don't think I'll ever forget the name Saffie Rose Roussos (the 8 year old who was killed).
posted by threetwentytwo at 8:10 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
My condolences to the friends and family of those injured and killed in this attack.
The scary part of this for me is that there's no real protection against an attack like this. Physical security measures didn't fail -- the attack was outside the venue's security cordon from what I've read. Unless you never leave your house, it seems hard to avoid crowds and crowds seem to be what has been targeted in recent attacks. And somewhat counter-intuitively, increasing security measures after an event like this will slow people entering a venue causing larger crowds waiting to get in. But those crowds will be outside the security perimeter and become potential targets themselves. All of which is a long way of saying that police or soldiers on every corner won't do much to stop an attack like this in the future.
posted by HiddenInput at 8:13 AM on May 24, 2017
The scary part of this for me is that there's no real protection against an attack like this. Physical security measures didn't fail -- the attack was outside the venue's security cordon from what I've read. Unless you never leave your house, it seems hard to avoid crowds and crowds seem to be what has been targeted in recent attacks. And somewhat counter-intuitively, increasing security measures after an event like this will slow people entering a venue causing larger crowds waiting to get in. But those crowds will be outside the security perimeter and become potential targets themselves. All of which is a long way of saying that police or soldiers on every corner won't do much to stop an attack like this in the future.
posted by HiddenInput at 8:13 AM on May 24, 2017
You're trying too hard to read things that aren't there.
Or, just as a suggestion, you could take the opportunity to think, Hm, that comment appears to have come off to at least one person in a way that I did not intend, and I should ponder why that is.
posted by Etrigan at 8:14 AM on May 24, 2017 [31 favorites]
Or, just as a suggestion, you could take the opportunity to think, Hm, that comment appears to have come off to at least one person in a way that I did not intend, and I should ponder why that is.
posted by Etrigan at 8:14 AM on May 24, 2017 [31 favorites]
The people behind those bombings were most certainly Catholic (and in this case Muslim), and they most certainly self-identified their religions as a driving factor behind their actions.The IRA claimed to be a movement for national liberation and denied that they had anything to do with religion. Religion was a marker of the divide between colonizer and colonized, not the basis of the conflict, according to them. The IRA officially welcomed people of any or no faith, and there were a couple of Protestant IRA members, although not a whole lot of them. Not really relevant to this discussion, though, so we should probably move on.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:19 AM on May 24, 2017 [22 favorites]
This guy interviewed on Newsnight is an absolute treasure. "I'm just gonna walk about and smile at people".
In deep contrast to certain Internet Hard Men and "journalists".
posted by threetwentytwo at 8:26 AM on May 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
In deep contrast to certain Internet Hard Men and "journalists".
posted by threetwentytwo at 8:26 AM on May 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
The people behind those bombings were most certainly Catholic (and in this case Muslim), and they most certainly self-identified their religions as a driving factor behind their actions. You may disagree with their interpretations of those religions, but that was their position. The IRA was an embodiment of the desire for an independent Irish republic, and a large part of that was a want for a Catholic homeland free from political and religious discrimination. To try and remove religion from the IRA's identity is ... well let's call that a stretch. The troubles are widely accepted to be "Sectarian Violence", I'm not sure what you think that means? It is one thing to say they don't represent Catholics, surly true and I would of course never say they did, but to deny they were Catholic enough to be described as Catholics?
I don't think that religion per se played a huge part in the troubles as much as what those religious divides represented. NI Catholics considered themselves Irish, the NI Protestants British, because traditionally the Protestants had come over from England and Scotland and shared an allegiance with the crown, whereas the Irish were Catholics. So yes, there's religion there, but that just helped delineate tribal affiliations. By this token, one could call the terrorist organisations, the UDA or the UDF "British Protestants" which sounds silly.
The goal of Irish nationalists was a de-colonised Ireland, free from Britain, but not specifically a religious state. (Indeed, for various other reasons, there are a lot of Protestants in Dublin. For a Free Irish State to work, religious freedom would have had to have been part of that.)
So, in short, to call the IRA Irish Catholics, isn't quite right, (and let's remember that this is Northern Ireland that we're talking about predominantly) Irish Nationalists is much more accurate. But again that does a disservice to Irish Nationalists who didn't believe in violence. I think the point is clear here, religion in the troubles was a cultural marker and violence was not committed for purely religious ends.
posted by ob at 8:36 AM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
I don't think that religion per se played a huge part in the troubles as much as what those religious divides represented. NI Catholics considered themselves Irish, the NI Protestants British, because traditionally the Protestants had come over from England and Scotland and shared an allegiance with the crown, whereas the Irish were Catholics. So yes, there's religion there, but that just helped delineate tribal affiliations. By this token, one could call the terrorist organisations, the UDA or the UDF "British Protestants" which sounds silly.
The goal of Irish nationalists was a de-colonised Ireland, free from Britain, but not specifically a religious state. (Indeed, for various other reasons, there are a lot of Protestants in Dublin. For a Free Irish State to work, religious freedom would have had to have been part of that.)
So, in short, to call the IRA Irish Catholics, isn't quite right, (and let's remember that this is Northern Ireland that we're talking about predominantly) Irish Nationalists is much more accurate. But again that does a disservice to Irish Nationalists who didn't believe in violence. I think the point is clear here, religion in the troubles was a cultural marker and violence was not committed for purely religious ends.
posted by ob at 8:36 AM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Oh, I see ArbitraryAndCapricious has handled this. Yes, I agree, this isn't particularly relevant. Time to move on.
posted by ob at 8:39 AM on May 24, 2017
posted by ob at 8:39 AM on May 24, 2017
My comment specifically stated that I developed a background prejudice regarding Irish Catholics because they bombed my community when I was young and impressionable. I also said I'd moved past that,
Except you quite clearly haven't. You literally said "Irish Catholics bombed both those places." To borrow a phrase, that is the textbook example of a prejudicial comment.
It is no more appropriate than "Muslims are terrorists." It is, in fact, exactly the sort of "sectarian" attitude that is causing so much suffering the world. Stop it. And certainly stop it here, in a thread about the most recent victims of the strongest manifestation of that kind of hate.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:41 AM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Except you quite clearly haven't. You literally said "Irish Catholics bombed both those places." To borrow a phrase, that is the textbook example of a prejudicial comment.
It is no more appropriate than "Muslims are terrorists." It is, in fact, exactly the sort of "sectarian" attitude that is causing so much suffering the world. Stop it. And certainly stop it here, in a thread about the most recent victims of the strongest manifestation of that kind of hate.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:41 AM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
US officials leak more Manchester details hours after UK rebuke
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:56 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:56 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
I thought it was pretty clear he was explaining he had developed a prejudice and he's attempting to teach his daughter not to do the same with regards Muslims. Because let's face it, when you're young and you have this kind of media to deal with, it can be very easy to lump things/groups together. And even when you're not young. Can we stop with being jerks? I can take his comment in good faith, and not read into something that isn't there. And he followed up to defend him. I mean jesus come on metafilter.
posted by driedmango at 9:54 AM on May 24, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by driedmango at 9:54 AM on May 24, 2017 [25 favorites]
On the topic of media intrusion after a terror attack this Twitter thread is an important read.
FWIW this isn't just a "UK media" issue.
The media frenzy at the Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Va., has spurred resentment among family and friends who continue to mourn for the victims of Monday's shooting.
posted by bowmaniac at 10:05 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
FWIW this isn't just a "UK media" issue.
The media frenzy at the Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Va., has spurred resentment among family and friends who continue to mourn for the victims of Monday's shooting.
posted by bowmaniac at 10:05 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Members of his own family had even informed on him in the past, telling British authorities that he was dangerous."
It's almost as if these attacks serve some larger purpose for those in power.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:10 AM on May 24, 2017
It's almost as if these attacks serve some larger purpose for those in power.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:10 AM on May 24, 2017
"I felt like an outsider; perhaps because I was there on my own; perhaps, because as an adoptive Manc, I'm not Manc enough."
I couldn't bring myself to attend the vigil last night at Town Hall. Partly because of what you said (I am also on my own and an adoptive Manc), and because I also know that I would not be able to hold it together in any sort of acceptable way — I tend to take on the emotions of all the people around me and have been known to really lose it at memorials, funerals etc. Unintentionally drawing attention to yourself in that way feels horrible, disruptive and counterproductive. I heard that there were some amazing things said there and a little bit of unified defiance, Mancunian-style. I would have liked to experience that part, but I feel proud of my new adopted city from my flat, which is what was right for me.
I had a 20 minute debate with myself this morning about whether or not to take the tram to the city centre or drive. In the end I chose the tram as a personal act of defiance, but offset my anxiety by choosing off-peak times both ways.
I left social media a few months ago (except MeFi, will never leave) and so I didn't hear about this in the usual channels and it's been a strange experience these last 40+ hours. My grief has come on very slowly and its been largely centred around my thoughts about this senseless violence, rather than my processing of images/comments/reactions/video from an endless stream.
Thank you for making this post, klausness. I always appreciate the perspectives here. MeFi has always been my first go-to for finding information and comfort during tragedies and major events. I know that's not what MeFi is _for_ but it is what this community _does_. Matters to me and helps me get through; I'm sure others too.
posted by iamkimiam at 10:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
I couldn't bring myself to attend the vigil last night at Town Hall. Partly because of what you said (I am also on my own and an adoptive Manc), and because I also know that I would not be able to hold it together in any sort of acceptable way — I tend to take on the emotions of all the people around me and have been known to really lose it at memorials, funerals etc. Unintentionally drawing attention to yourself in that way feels horrible, disruptive and counterproductive. I heard that there were some amazing things said there and a little bit of unified defiance, Mancunian-style. I would have liked to experience that part, but I feel proud of my new adopted city from my flat, which is what was right for me.
I had a 20 minute debate with myself this morning about whether or not to take the tram to the city centre or drive. In the end I chose the tram as a personal act of defiance, but offset my anxiety by choosing off-peak times both ways.
I left social media a few months ago (except MeFi, will never leave) and so I didn't hear about this in the usual channels and it's been a strange experience these last 40+ hours. My grief has come on very slowly and its been largely centred around my thoughts about this senseless violence, rather than my processing of images/comments/reactions/video from an endless stream.
Thank you for making this post, klausness. I always appreciate the perspectives here. MeFi has always been my first go-to for finding information and comfort during tragedies and major events. I know that's not what MeFi is _for_ but it is what this community _does_. Matters to me and helps me get through; I'm sure others too.
posted by iamkimiam at 10:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
Police arrest fifth person in connection with Manchester attack
A fifth person has been arrested in connection with a suicide bombing in the northern English city of Manchester which killed 22 people, police said on Wednesday.
The man, who was carrying a package, was arrested in the town of Wigan, 17 miles (27 km) to the west of Manchester city centre.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:30 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
A fifth person has been arrested in connection with a suicide bombing in the northern English city of Manchester which killed 22 people, police said on Wednesday.
The man, who was carrying a package, was arrested in the town of Wigan, 17 miles (27 km) to the west of Manchester city centre.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:30 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
This guts me on hundreds of levels, and what is really making me sob right now is Ariana Grande's face in all the photos that are still being taken of her. The PTSD from this is going to be so terrible for everyone involved.
posted by Hermione Granger at 10:52 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Hermione Granger at 10:52 AM on May 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, let's really drop the IRA sidebar at this point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:13 AM on May 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:13 AM on May 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
Ugh—on BBC World News just now, an interview with a woman in the street who said, "He was shouting the Koran in the street, in Islamic! ...I don't know their language." And then a few other people mention seeing writing "in Islamic" and the reporter asks a question about "Islamic writing."
posted by XMLicious at 11:16 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 11:16 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
They Went to Manchester Arena as Homeless Men. They Left as Heroes. (NYT)
“Just because I am homeless doesn’t mean I haven’t got a heart, or I’m not human still,” Mr. Jones told ITV News. “I’d like to think someone would come and help me if I needed the help,” he said, adding that he had been overcome by an “instinct” to pitch in. “It was children,” he continued.posted by Barack Spinoza at 11:35 AM on May 24, 2017 [12 favorites]
Fantastic, altho the headine kind of implies surprise that homeless people aren't assholes, somehow.
posted by agregoli at 11:43 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 11:43 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
The PTSD from this is going to be so terrible for everyone involved
I work with victims and survivors of conflict-related trauma here in NI. Today has been rough. A lot of people re-traumatised, re-living bombings they were caught up in, up to 40 years ago. It never leaves people, and all day I've been thinking not only about those in Manchester killed and bereaved, but those who lost limbs or their sight or their hearing or are scarred physically and/or mentally for life. As an Irish Catholic it made me feel sick to read the comment upthread, (not in a "how dare you" way - I get it, it just literally hit me right in the guts) and tearful, and I understand how Muslims in Britain are feeling today because I felt it every time an IRA bomb went off - that need for people to know it wasn't me, it wasn't my people, it wasn't in my name. I sat with people today who were crying because they were hurt, and I sat with people who were crying because they caused hurt, and who find it hard to live with the guilt. I am so, so sorry for the people of Manchester, because I know what it's like to have a part of your city wounded, and what that leaves you with, and I know that so many of those people will be sitting with people like me in the years to come, long long after the story has dropped from the front page. It breaks my heart on more levels than I can say. I'm so sorry.
.
posted by billiebee at 11:44 AM on May 24, 2017 [61 favorites]
I work with victims and survivors of conflict-related trauma here in NI. Today has been rough. A lot of people re-traumatised, re-living bombings they were caught up in, up to 40 years ago. It never leaves people, and all day I've been thinking not only about those in Manchester killed and bereaved, but those who lost limbs or their sight or their hearing or are scarred physically and/or mentally for life. As an Irish Catholic it made me feel sick to read the comment upthread, (not in a "how dare you" way - I get it, it just literally hit me right in the guts) and tearful, and I understand how Muslims in Britain are feeling today because I felt it every time an IRA bomb went off - that need for people to know it wasn't me, it wasn't my people, it wasn't in my name. I sat with people today who were crying because they were hurt, and I sat with people who were crying because they caused hurt, and who find it hard to live with the guilt. I am so, so sorry for the people of Manchester, because I know what it's like to have a part of your city wounded, and what that leaves you with, and I know that so many of those people will be sitting with people like me in the years to come, long long after the story has dropped from the front page. It breaks my heart on more levels than I can say. I'm so sorry.
.
posted by billiebee at 11:44 AM on May 24, 2017 [61 favorites]
>>>I've read that the suspected bomber was known to police. Maybe this is a criminal justice problem?
A few thoughts on why in so many terrorist incidents, the attacker was 'known to authorities' & whether this constitutes an intel failure - @DavidWellsCT
[Twitter thread]
David Wells' comments here have to be read in the context of the attacks in Belgium and Paris. In Belgium, in particular, there was not good coordination between different police and security agencies.
I don't know all that much about the state of things in the UK, but I'm wondering if there are ways to improve policing rather than cracking down on civil liberties and turning society into a panopticon.
posted by My Dad at 12:26 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
A few thoughts on why in so many terrorist incidents, the attacker was 'known to authorities' & whether this constitutes an intel failure - @DavidWellsCT
[Twitter thread]
David Wells' comments here have to be read in the context of the attacks in Belgium and Paris. In Belgium, in particular, there was not good coordination between different police and security agencies.
I don't know all that much about the state of things in the UK, but I'm wondering if there are ways to improve policing rather than cracking down on civil liberties and turning society into a panopticon.
posted by My Dad at 12:26 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Another thing coming up on twitter is fake brits pretending to be mancunian. wonder if they're the same ignoramuses chanting in 'slamic?
posted by infini at 1:51 PM on May 24, 2017
posted by infini at 1:51 PM on May 24, 2017
Looks like US intel is geared towards increasing eyeballs for the coterie's media divisions than anything else.
posted by infini at 1:52 PM on May 24, 2017
posted by infini at 1:52 PM on May 24, 2017
And the US leaks continue.
Jesus Christ, straight-up crime scene photos? At what point does someone decide to just stop telling the US agencies anything whatsoever?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:26 PM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Jesus Christ, straight-up crime scene photos? At what point does someone decide to just stop telling the US agencies anything whatsoever?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:26 PM on May 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Theresa May to tackle Donald Trump over Manchester bombing evidence
Haha, good luck with that!
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:28 PM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Haha, good luck with that!
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:28 PM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
And the US leaks continue.
Unbelievable. Christ.
posted by pharm at 2:35 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Unbelievable. Christ.
posted by pharm at 2:35 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
At what point does someone decide to just stop telling the US agencies anything whatsoever?
Thursday is the big NATO meet and greet.
posted by infini at 2:41 PM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Thursday is the big NATO meet and greet.
posted by infini at 2:41 PM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
What the police have to say:
“We greatly value the important relationships we have with our trusted intelligence, law enforcement and security partners around the world. These relationships enable us to collaborate and share privileged and sensitive information that allows us to defeat terrorism and protect the public at home and abroad.posted by ambrosen at 2:47 PM on May 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
“When that trust is breached it undermines these relationships, and undermines our investigations and the confidence of victims, witnesses and their families. This damage is even greater when it involves unauthorised disclosure of potential evidence in the middle of a major counter terrorism investigation.”
Perhaps GCHQ should just dump all the dirt they have on the Trump administration straight onto the internet.
posted by Grangousier at 2:55 PM on May 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 2:55 PM on May 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
Hi, Manc here. Please spare us from the hot takes. We have enough shit to deal with right now.
posted by mushhushshu at 3:06 PM on May 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by mushhushshu at 3:06 PM on May 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
My heart breaks for Manchester. And Ariana Grande too. I hope there isn't some manifesto that gets found that proves the bomber specifically targeted young girls. JFC, I just can't deal with the constant assault on women. And to all the UK mefites, so sorry Trump's administration can't stop showing off by sharing classified info that hampers investigations and increases the danger level. *face palm*
posted by pjsky at 3:10 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by pjsky at 3:10 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
So far, seven UK arrests (6 men, 1 woman) have been made in connection with the bombing, most in Manchester but also in Wigan and Nuneaton. The names of a few have been released or leaked, including one brother of the suspected bomber. In Libya, the suspected bomber's father and another brother have been detained by the Rada Deterrence Force, a hardline Islamic militia with strong opposition to Isis. From the Guardian:
Led by charismatic commander, Abdulrauf Kara, it is Salafist in character, seeking to enforce Islamic codes banning drink and drugs, but is fiercely opposed to Isis, terrorist groups, and many rival militias.
Formed from militiamen who battled against Gaddafi in the 2011 Arab spring, it operates as a self-appointed police force, raiding drug gangs and migrant smugglers’ safe-houses and periodically skirmishing with rival militias.
More organised than other militias, it has a command structure and brings suspects before the courts, earning grudging respect from many Tripolitanians. It has won popular support by tackling the capital’s spate of kidnappings, staging raids to free hostages held by rival militias and posting video of the kidnappers’ confessions online.
Rada is formally linked to the interior ministry but, in practice, it runs its own operations, choosing when to cooperate with the UN-backed government which lacks any security force of its own. Critics complain Rada is not answerable to governing authorities, while supporters say it provides a semblance of law in a lawless city.
Kara styles himself as a political pragmatist, telling the New York Times last year that many Libyans might support the return of the monarchy, abolished by Gaddafi in 1969, as a “viable solution” if it brought order to the country’s chaos.
posted by Errant at 3:35 PM on May 24, 2017
Led by charismatic commander, Abdulrauf Kara, it is Salafist in character, seeking to enforce Islamic codes banning drink and drugs, but is fiercely opposed to Isis, terrorist groups, and many rival militias.
Formed from militiamen who battled against Gaddafi in the 2011 Arab spring, it operates as a self-appointed police force, raiding drug gangs and migrant smugglers’ safe-houses and periodically skirmishing with rival militias.
More organised than other militias, it has a command structure and brings suspects before the courts, earning grudging respect from many Tripolitanians. It has won popular support by tackling the capital’s spate of kidnappings, staging raids to free hostages held by rival militias and posting video of the kidnappers’ confessions online.
Rada is formally linked to the interior ministry but, in practice, it runs its own operations, choosing when to cooperate with the UN-backed government which lacks any security force of its own. Critics complain Rada is not answerable to governing authorities, while supporters say it provides a semblance of law in a lawless city.
Kara styles himself as a political pragmatist, telling the New York Times last year that many Libyans might support the return of the monarchy, abolished by Gaddafi in 1969, as a “viable solution” if it brought order to the country’s chaos.
posted by Errant at 3:35 PM on May 24, 2017
On the subject of how badly the intelligence leaks are being taken, Home Secretary had already gone on the record as saying that the UK was 'irritated' by the name leaking. That's the British equivalent of about five paragraphs of swearing.
The pictures are a whole new level beyond that.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:02 PM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
The pictures are a whole new level beyond that.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:02 PM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Fucking ghouls.
posted by Artw at 5:08 PM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:08 PM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
You know, every time one of these kicks off, you hear that the (alleged) attacker was known to police/intelligence services/etc. It's become a journalistic cliche at this point. Maybe the police shouldn't be so darned shy. Maybe they ought to reach out and get to know these attackers a little better. Like, behind barbed wire. Indefinitely.
posted by the hot hot side of randy at 6:57 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by the hot hot side of randy at 6:57 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
State surveillance being what it is today, the police have records on vast numbers of people. The bomber would have been on the list because of his Libyan family connections, if for no other reason. What can you do with all that information? Nothing, basically, until one of them actually does something substantial. There's just too much stuff that is too vague and which couldn't even be assessed without individual analysis.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:45 PM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:45 PM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
What can you do with all that information? Nothing, basically, until one of them actually does something substantial.
Something, even the most tepid escalation, is better than nothing. For the sake of pride and national honor, if nothing else. I cannot claim that a more pro-active approach would necessarily have prevented this particular attack. But it might prevent others. At the very least, it might make life miserable for the tiny minority who have declared war on our societies and perhaps persuade them to move on to cultures more in tune with their own professed values.
posted by the hot hot side of randy at 8:09 PM on May 24, 2017
Something, even the most tepid escalation, is better than nothing. For the sake of pride and national honor, if nothing else. I cannot claim that a more pro-active approach would necessarily have prevented this particular attack. But it might prevent others. At the very least, it might make life miserable for the tiny minority who have declared war on our societies and perhaps persuade them to move on to cultures more in tune with their own professed values.
posted by the hot hot side of randy at 8:09 PM on May 24, 2017
Mod note: There's a rhetorical point past which y'all can just flag and move on. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:10 PM on May 24, 2017
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:10 PM on May 24, 2017
Something, even the most tepid escalation, is better than nothing. For the sake of pride and national honor, if nothing else. I cannot claim that a more pro-active approach would necessarily have prevented this particular attack. But it might prevent others.
We used to do this. Round up all suspected terrorists, imprison them without bothering with trials, treat them brutally. Wasn't even that long ago.
And how did it play out? Not only was it a horrendous thing to have done, something we should have known better than to ever excuse - it didn't even work. It inflamed existing tensions, increased terrorist recruitment, and massively exacerbated the existing conflict leading to another two+ decades of civil war.
Not the answer.
posted by Catseye at 10:26 PM on May 24, 2017 [15 favorites]
We used to do this. Round up all suspected terrorists, imprison them without bothering with trials, treat them brutally. Wasn't even that long ago.
And how did it play out? Not only was it a horrendous thing to have done, something we should have known better than to ever excuse - it didn't even work. It inflamed existing tensions, increased terrorist recruitment, and massively exacerbated the existing conflict leading to another two+ decades of civil war.
Not the answer.
posted by Catseye at 10:26 PM on May 24, 2017 [15 favorites]
I'm astonished at what the NYT has done. While some of the gang responsible for this horror are potentially still out there, that newspaper has provided them with what's effectively a technical review of their v1.0 product. They've jeopardised a trial. Did they not realise this is real life, now, not a TV show or historical event?
posted by BinaryApe at 10:51 PM on May 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by BinaryApe at 10:51 PM on May 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
What is the meaning of this tweet by UK police?
Is it the turning point Artw was looking for above in this thread?
posted by infini at 11:37 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is it the turning point Artw was looking for above in this thread?
posted by infini at 11:37 PM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Vids circulating on social media show the Manchester crowd singing along with Ariana Grande to the concert's closing number, "One Last Time." It's bittersweet to the point of pain.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:55 PM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 11:55 PM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
What is the meaning of this tweet by UK police?
Is it the turning point Artw was looking for above in this thread?
I think that could only be clearer if they'd started it with @nytimes.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:57 PM on May 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Is it the turning point Artw was looking for above in this thread?
I think that could only be clearer if they'd started it with @nytimes.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:57 PM on May 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
May to Raise U.S. Terror Intelligence Leaks With Trump at NATO
Nato to formally join anti-Isis coalition
Germany and France drop reservations
surely I'm not seeing the dots connecting here
posted by infini at 11:59 PM on May 24, 2017
Nato to formally join anti-Isis coalition
Germany and France drop reservations
surely I'm not seeing the dots connecting here
posted by infini at 11:59 PM on May 24, 2017
that newspaper has provided them with what's effectively a technical review of their v1.0 product. They've jeopardised a trial.
And they have possibly struck a significant blow against western anti-terrorist co-operation, with potentially appalling consequences.
We really need them to explain what they think they're doing.
posted by Segundus at 12:17 AM on May 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
And they have possibly struck a significant blow against western anti-terrorist co-operation, with potentially appalling consequences.
We really need them to explain what they think they're doing.
posted by Segundus at 12:17 AM on May 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
And they have possibly struck a significant blow against western anti-terrorist co-operation, with potentially appalling consequences.
Yeah. BBC radio is reporting the police have stopped sharing information with the US on this.
posted by MattWPBS at 12:22 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah. BBC radio is reporting the police have stopped sharing information with the US on this.
posted by MattWPBS at 12:22 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I work a few minutes from the House of Commons in Westminster and I am appalled by the media coverage being given to this attack's aftermath. So much of it is about a nation in fear, tensed for the next attack etc.
At lunch time yesterday, I walked to a park by Parliament to have lunch in the sun. There were hundreds of people there - including workers, tourists and school groups. Everyone was lazing in the warm sun, laughing and enjoying themselves, while the media stand outside Downing Street filming soldiers on patrol and hyping up the fear factor. Utterly disgusting.
My new young team member was fine the day after the attack, but is now upset and scared as a result of watching some of this crap.
Understandably, things may be different in Manchester, and I don't blame anyone for being scared - like billiebee, being Northern Irish gives you a different perspective on these things - but the media has so much to answer for.
posted by knapah at 12:22 AM on May 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
At lunch time yesterday, I walked to a park by Parliament to have lunch in the sun. There were hundreds of people there - including workers, tourists and school groups. Everyone was lazing in the warm sun, laughing and enjoying themselves, while the media stand outside Downing Street filming soldiers on patrol and hyping up the fear factor. Utterly disgusting.
My new young team member was fine the day after the attack, but is now upset and scared as a result of watching some of this crap.
Understandably, things may be different in Manchester, and I don't blame anyone for being scared - like billiebee, being Northern Irish gives you a different perspective on these things - but the media has so much to answer for.
posted by knapah at 12:22 AM on May 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
Understandably, things may be different in Manchester, and I don't blame anyone for being scared - like billiebee, being Northern Irish gives you a different perspective on these things - but the media has so much to answer for.On Tuesday night I walked from Ardwick, near Piccadilly Station, to Albert Square, where the vigil was held. It's a mile and a bit of a walk, and takes you through Piccadilly Gardens, which is not as lovely as it used to be, but is not the worst place to sit on a sunny evening in late may.
It was full of people: talking, sharing a beer, chatting, enjoying the fountains, laughing. There was a spirit of "we're here, we're not going anywhere, we're going to be in the sun and sit on the grass and share time with our friends in both happiness and grief." The armed police were on the corners of the square… people were chatting to them a bit, but largely ignoring them.
I think the city's still coming to terms with everything, and the grief will take time. But I'll be damned if Manchester lets some cowardly little shit break its spirit.
posted by gmb at 12:40 AM on May 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
From the Guardian liveblog:
The Guardian can confirm that Britain has stopped sharing evidence from the investigation into the Manchester bombing with the United States after a series of leaks left investigators and government furious.posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:50 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
The ban is limited to the Manchester investigation only with Britain believing the leaks are unprecedented in their scope , frequency and potential damage.
I live in the UK, but resubscribed to the New York Times after Trump was elected to support fearless journalism. But I am truly disgusted at their decision to print those crime scene photos. I hope they take some measure to explain the editorial process behind it, because I do not understand.
Knapah, I completely agree. I do not ever look at the Mail, Sun or other tabloid trash. It's all designed to heighten a sense of fear and emergency.
I'm in Manchester this weekend for a couple of gigs (that are going ahead) as it happens. I'll be respectful, but I'm not changing my plans.
posted by wingless_angel at 2:06 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Knapah, I completely agree. I do not ever look at the Mail, Sun or other tabloid trash. It's all designed to heighten a sense of fear and emergency.
I'm in Manchester this weekend for a couple of gigs (that are going ahead) as it happens. I'll be respectful, but I'm not changing my plans.
posted by wingless_angel at 2:06 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
One of the houses raided where a controlled explosion took place is two minutes from my house. Film crews everywhere.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:06 AM on May 25, 2017
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:06 AM on May 25, 2017
These leaks have to be influenced by Russia or China, if the intent was to spoil Anglo-USA relationships, it seems to be working quite well.
I assume the evidence is fingerprinted so that we can know that the leak was of material sent to the US. Whether the US has the ability or, (god help us - I'd never have thought this before January), the willingness to determine the source of the leak and deal with it is a matter of conjecture.
posted by epo at 2:27 AM on May 25, 2017
I assume the evidence is fingerprinted so that we can know that the leak was of material sent to the US. Whether the US has the ability or, (god help us - I'd never have thought this before January), the willingness to determine the source of the leak and deal with it is a matter of conjecture.
posted by epo at 2:27 AM on May 25, 2017
I live in the UK, but resubscribed to the New York Times after Trump was elected to support fearless journalism
Me too, but I've just cancelled my subscription; the decision is too irresponsible for me, and I'm happy to support fearless journalism by continuing to give money to the Guardian.
posted by Aravis76 at 2:30 AM on May 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Me too, but I've just cancelled my subscription; the decision is too irresponsible for me, and I'm happy to support fearless journalism by continuing to give money to the Guardian.
posted by Aravis76 at 2:30 AM on May 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
On other social media I've seen complaints about why the suspect was free if he was 'known to the police' and calling for all such people to be interned in the interests of national security.
Firstly, we tried internment in Northern Ireland. That policy is now almost universally regarded as having been grossly misguided and having led to serious human rights abuses, a spike in terrorism, and a significant surge in recruitment to PIRA.
And how do people become 'known to the police'? Often through genuine intelligence work, but in many cases because someone has reported them. That may be a genuine report, it may be misguided, it may be based on prejudice, it may be malicious.
Interning - or even just pulling in for questioning - everyone 'known to the police' in relation to the terrorist threat would be the biggest PR and recruiting bonus for ISIS imaginable.
posted by Major Clanger at 2:31 AM on May 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
Firstly, we tried internment in Northern Ireland. That policy is now almost universally regarded as having been grossly misguided and having led to serious human rights abuses, a spike in terrorism, and a significant surge in recruitment to PIRA.
And how do people become 'known to the police'? Often through genuine intelligence work, but in many cases because someone has reported them. That may be a genuine report, it may be misguided, it may be based on prejudice, it may be malicious.
Interning - or even just pulling in for questioning - everyone 'known to the police' in relation to the terrorist threat would be the biggest PR and recruiting bonus for ISIS imaginable.
posted by Major Clanger at 2:31 AM on May 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
I know you are all busy speculating about intelligence services and spying, but take a minute out to watch Ian - a Scottish guy living in Manchester. He's a good guy.
posted by kariebookish at 2:32 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by kariebookish at 2:32 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
I will add that as someone who used to work with the intelligence community (including on extremely sensitive work involving US-UK intelligence sharing) and who now works within the legal system I am utterly appalled at the leaking of sensitive information regarding an ongoing investigation. It is hard to overstate the damage this could do to ongoing investigations, or indeed to US-UK relations.
For the Home Secretary (broadly, the UK counterpart of the Secretary for Homeland Security, but a much longer-established position that is one of the four most senior posts in the British Government) to openly criticise the USA over an intelligence-sharing matter is staggering. I would not be surprised if this turns out to be the most serious diplomatic incident between the US and UK since the invasion of Grenada 34 years ago.
posted by Major Clanger at 2:42 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
For the Home Secretary (broadly, the UK counterpart of the Secretary for Homeland Security, but a much longer-established position that is one of the four most senior posts in the British Government) to openly criticise the USA over an intelligence-sharing matter is staggering. I would not be surprised if this turns out to be the most serious diplomatic incident between the US and UK since the invasion of Grenada 34 years ago.
posted by Major Clanger at 2:42 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
Interning - or even just pulling in for questioning - everyone 'known to the police' in relation to the terrorist threat would be the biggest PR and recruiting bonus for ISIS imaginable.
posted by Major Clanger at 10:31 AM on May 25
You may have to be a Brit to appreciate this but if that isn't eponysterical, what is?
posted by epo at 2:45 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Major Clanger at 10:31 AM on May 25
You may have to be a Brit to appreciate this but if that isn't eponysterical, what is?
posted by epo at 2:45 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure I remember that episode.
posted by dng at 2:48 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by dng at 2:48 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
And how do people become 'known to the police'? Often through genuine intelligence work, but in many cases because someone has reported them. That may be a genuine report, it may be misguided, it may be based on prejudice, it may be malicious.
In this case, the bomber was reported to the UK security services by multiple different people over the past few years - first by fellow school pupils and more recently both someone within the family & also his own mosque according to the Telegraph.
posted by pharm at 2:59 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
In this case, the bomber was reported to the UK security services by multiple different people over the past few years - first by fellow school pupils and more recently both someone within the family & also his own mosque according to the Telegraph.
posted by pharm at 2:59 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
From the politics thread, this article from The Guardian seems to imply that this leakage is nothing new and happened over the exact same thing during the 7/7 investigation. Only factor might be that all the rest of us never heard about it as much due to greater presence of social media in the past 12 years.
Ian Blair, who was Metropolitan police commissioner during the London underground bombings on 7 July 2005, said his investigation had also been troubled by leaks from US intelligence.
Blair said he was sure the leaks had “nothing to do with Trump” given that similar leaks had happened during his own time investigating a terror attack.
“I’m afraid this reminds me exactly of what happened after 7/7, when the US published a complete picture of the way the bombs had been made up. We had the same protests.
“It’s a different world in how the US operates in the sense of how they publish things. And this is a very grievous breach but I’m afraid it’s the same as before.”
Lord Carlile, the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, described the leaks as “very unusual and irresponsible” and called for those responsible to be “called to account”.
He said: “Photos of the backpack after the event could be of utility to future bombmakers, for obvious reasons. Also, it damages decades of confidence between the UK and US services, the cohesion of the ‘Five Eyes’ group [the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand], and sharing of information with French, German and other security services. These leaks made yesterday a very bad day for national security in several countries, and those responsible should be called to account.”
posted by infini at 4:19 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ian Blair, who was Metropolitan police commissioner during the London underground bombings on 7 July 2005, said his investigation had also been troubled by leaks from US intelligence.
Blair said he was sure the leaks had “nothing to do with Trump” given that similar leaks had happened during his own time investigating a terror attack.
“I’m afraid this reminds me exactly of what happened after 7/7, when the US published a complete picture of the way the bombs had been made up. We had the same protests.
“It’s a different world in how the US operates in the sense of how they publish things. And this is a very grievous breach but I’m afraid it’s the same as before.”
Lord Carlile, the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, described the leaks as “very unusual and irresponsible” and called for those responsible to be “called to account”.
He said: “Photos of the backpack after the event could be of utility to future bombmakers, for obvious reasons. Also, it damages decades of confidence between the UK and US services, the cohesion of the ‘Five Eyes’ group [the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand], and sharing of information with French, German and other security services. These leaks made yesterday a very bad day for national security in several countries, and those responsible should be called to account.”
posted by infini at 4:19 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
"These leaks have to be influenced by Russia or China, if the intent was to spoil Anglo-USA relationships, it seems to be working quite well."
Seriously? It's far more likely to just be a standard leak, the US intelligence services have an extremely close relationship with the media. The US government leaks like crazy.
For a conspiracy tinged angle, if that's what you want, how about intelligence agents leaking this to increase aura of untrustworthiness and incompetence around the Trump administration and furthering efforts towards collapsing his presidency.
posted by knapah at 4:22 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Seriously? It's far more likely to just be a standard leak, the US intelligence services have an extremely close relationship with the media. The US government leaks like crazy.
For a conspiracy tinged angle, if that's what you want, how about intelligence agents leaking this to increase aura of untrustworthiness and incompetence around the Trump administration and furthering efforts towards collapsing his presidency.
posted by knapah at 4:22 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
For a conspiracy tinged angle, if that's what you want, how about intelligence agents leaking this to increase aura of untrustworthiness and incompetence around the Trump administration and furthering efforts towards collapsing his presidency.
That's a very comfy all-American-hero view of the world. So why aren't these patriots leaking stuff about Russia which would actually be effective at home? I'm pretty sure most Americans don't give a toss about leaking intelligence which only affects the UK.
posted by epo at 4:33 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's a very comfy all-American-hero view of the world. So why aren't these patriots leaking stuff about Russia which would actually be effective at home? I'm pretty sure most Americans don't give a toss about leaking intelligence which only affects the UK.
posted by epo at 4:33 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
For a conspiracy tinged angle, if that's what you want, how about intelligence agents leaking this to increase aura of untrustworthiness and incompetence around the Trump administration and furthering efforts towards collapsing his presidency.
lol, you don't need to make Trump seem more untrustworthy by leaking stuff for him, he's leaking sensitive info himself left, right, and centre already.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:35 AM on May 25, 2017
lol, you don't need to make Trump seem more untrustworthy by leaking stuff for him, he's leaking sensitive info himself left, right, and centre already.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:35 AM on May 25, 2017
this leakage is nothing new and happened over the exact same thing during the 7/7 investigation
Evidently, some septics are congenital blabbermouths.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:44 AM on May 25, 2017
Evidently, some septics are congenital blabbermouths.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:44 AM on May 25, 2017
I don't think it's a conspiracy at all. I just think certain US intelligence people like leaking stuff. This isn't new.
posted by knapah at 5:03 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by knapah at 5:03 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Corrie to dedicate bench to Martyn Hett and the other victims.
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:44 AM on May 25, 2017
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:44 AM on May 25, 2017
“It’s a different world in how the US operates in the sense of how they publish things. And this is a very grievous breach but I’m afraid it’s the same as before.”
Genuine question and not seeking to derail but: does the US have a regulator? We have IPSO in the UK set up after the Levenson inquiry, so it's self-regulating but I wonder what exists in the US that accounts for "this different world". I am assuming for the sake of argument here not merely the existence of the first amendment.
posted by wingless_angel at 6:45 AM on May 25, 2017
Genuine question and not seeking to derail but: does the US have a regulator? We have IPSO in the UK set up after the Levenson inquiry, so it's self-regulating but I wonder what exists in the US that accounts for "this different world". I am assuming for the sake of argument here not merely the existence of the first amendment.
posted by wingless_angel at 6:45 AM on May 25, 2017
Genuine question and not seeking to derail but: does the US have a regulator?The short answer is no. There is a pretty strong code of journalistic ethics among members of the mainstream media, but there's no body that enforces it. And I think that most American journalists would say that their code of ethics includes a very strong bias towards publishing verifiable, newsworthy information, even if a government asks you not to. There might be some instances in which you would hold back news, but there would have to be an unusually compelling reason.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:28 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
The US president, Donald Trump, has said the leaks of sensitive information from the Manchester investigation are “deeply troubling” and pose a “grave threat” to US national security.*irony detector explodes*
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:55 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
ArbitraryAndCapricious, many thanks!
New York Times has published a statement on their decision to publish the photos (in the same article re Trump on leakers, scroll down)
The images and information presented were neither graphic nor disrespectful of victims, and consistent with the common line of reporting on weapons used in horrific crimes, as The Times and other media outlets have done following terrorist acts around the world, from Boston to Paris to Baghdad, and many places in between.
posted by wingless_angel at 8:22 AM on May 25, 2017
New York Times has published a statement on their decision to publish the photos (in the same article re Trump on leakers, scroll down)
The images and information presented were neither graphic nor disrespectful of victims, and consistent with the common line of reporting on weapons used in horrific crimes, as The Times and other media outlets have done following terrorist acts around the world, from Boston to Paris to Baghdad, and many places in between.
posted by wingless_angel at 8:22 AM on May 25, 2017
Evidently, some septics are congenital blabbermouths.
Septic leaks are always the worst.
There's an element of the unreal about the city right now. The weather has been sunny and warm all week (a rarity here), so the city, busy as ever, is full of people in T-shirts and sunglasses. And you wouldn't think anything was unusual apart from the fact these people are leaving flowers at memorials and the world's media are parked up in St Ann's Square. I'm lucky in that nobody I know has been directly affected by the attack, but the news keeps on rolling with arrests and raids in places I've known my entire life, hearing the witnesses talk with voices I've grown up knowing, that bring this home in ways I've never experienced before. It's not something I would wish on anyone, but now it's happened here, the attacks in Paris and Nice and Berlin feel so much more... real? More visceral, certainly.
There's two kinds of upset going on. I was at the vigil on Tuesday night, and I went to St Ann's Square after work last night to see the memorial. I can deal with the crowds and their disbelief and grief because, if anything, it makes me realise that whatever else divides us, there's a common thread of humanity that's appalled by this event and is bringing a big, dirty, fractious city (and beyond) together. The second upset is, inevitably, the rolling news coverage and the nigh-endless fucking awful opinions being spouted online. That I don't know how to deal with.
posted by mushhushshu at 9:43 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
Septic leaks are always the worst.
There's an element of the unreal about the city right now. The weather has been sunny and warm all week (a rarity here), so the city, busy as ever, is full of people in T-shirts and sunglasses. And you wouldn't think anything was unusual apart from the fact these people are leaving flowers at memorials and the world's media are parked up in St Ann's Square. I'm lucky in that nobody I know has been directly affected by the attack, but the news keeps on rolling with arrests and raids in places I've known my entire life, hearing the witnesses talk with voices I've grown up knowing, that bring this home in ways I've never experienced before. It's not something I would wish on anyone, but now it's happened here, the attacks in Paris and Nice and Berlin feel so much more... real? More visceral, certainly.
There's two kinds of upset going on. I was at the vigil on Tuesday night, and I went to St Ann's Square after work last night to see the memorial. I can deal with the crowds and their disbelief and grief because, if anything, it makes me realise that whatever else divides us, there's a common thread of humanity that's appalled by this event and is bringing a big, dirty, fractious city (and beyond) together. The second upset is, inevitably, the rolling news coverage and the nigh-endless fucking awful opinions being spouted online. That I don't know how to deal with.
posted by mushhushshu at 9:43 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
Septic leaks are always the worst.
Septic tanks = yanks
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:00 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Septic tanks = yanks
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:00 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's been surreal. I was running a workshop this morning and my coworker came into the conference room to lower all the blinds because there was a nearby bomb threat (if it went off, the glass damage would be reduced). We cancelled the workshop as it's silly to expect people be creative under unexpected anxiety conditions. I started getting on with other work, but then we were told to evacuate the building as there was a bomb threat downstairs. We were then ushered further and further away, until we ended up at the grassy plaza near the university.
As the weather has been uncharacteristically sunny (and hot!), dozens and dozens of us hung around for a couple hours, chatting, tanning and eating ice creams while we waited for the bomb squad to show up and clear the building.
I don't know what to make of that, but whatever fears were perhaps trying to be instilled by terrorists were negated by the general feelings of chill and togetherness while all us building mates calmly made the best of an atypical situation.
Maybe it's the vitamin D boost, but I'm feeling good about the resiliency of people, the warmth of community, and the ability of societies to stick together through tragedy and all of its aftershocks.
posted by iamkimiam at 10:33 AM on May 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
As the weather has been uncharacteristically sunny (and hot!), dozens and dozens of us hung around for a couple hours, chatting, tanning and eating ice creams while we waited for the bomb squad to show up and clear the building.
I don't know what to make of that, but whatever fears were perhaps trying to be instilled by terrorists were negated by the general feelings of chill and togetherness while all us building mates calmly made the best of an atypical situation.
Maybe it's the vitamin D boost, but I'm feeling good about the resiliency of people, the warmth of community, and the ability of societies to stick together through tragedy and all of its aftershocks.
posted by iamkimiam at 10:33 AM on May 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
Guardian editorial saying leaks by journalists, against government wishes, work both ways.
They link to an article they published six years ago outing a CIA agent that they say wouldn't have been published in the US.
posted by mgrrl at 12:29 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
They link to an article they published six years ago outing a CIA agent that they say wouldn't have been published in the US.
posted by mgrrl at 12:29 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was at the vigil on Tuesday evening and there was an amazing atmosphere of pride in our city and love for each other. One of the speakers was poet Tony Walsh, who read out his poem This is the Place to thunderous applause and cheers. And there's currently a movement for people to get bee tattoos (the bee is a symbol of Manchester), with the tattoo artists donating their fees to the charity appeal for victims and their families.
And there are so many stories of kindness: taxi drivers offering stranded people free lifts home from the arena, people were offering their spare rooms to strangers on Monday, a charity fundraising appeal for victims and their families has so far raised over £4 million, people were queueing down the street to donate blood, and there's even been an appeal to buy hospital workers free drinks after their shifts.
Monday was a very dark day for Manchester. But as iamkimiam said, it's brought out the best in us.
posted by badmoonrising at 12:31 PM on May 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
And there are so many stories of kindness: taxi drivers offering stranded people free lifts home from the arena, people were offering their spare rooms to strangers on Monday, a charity fundraising appeal for victims and their families has so far raised over £4 million, people were queueing down the street to donate blood, and there's even been an appeal to buy hospital workers free drinks after their shifts.
Monday was a very dark day for Manchester. But as iamkimiam said, it's brought out the best in us.
posted by badmoonrising at 12:31 PM on May 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
While the David Wells tweet is very good to keep in mind, it seems that, yes, this was a policing failure, and not a failure of multiculturalism.
posted by My Dad at 4:20 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by My Dad at 4:20 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
One of the survivors injured in the attack, 15-year-old Millie Robinson, has been tweeting from her hospital room with cheerful updates on her recovery. Her sweetness and warmth are enormously heartening even as she makes me want to cry.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:57 PM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 4:57 PM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
UK Police are sharing info with the US again. The suspension lasted less than 24 hours and seems to have been more symbolic than anything.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:07 AM on May 26, 2017
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:07 AM on May 26, 2017
The YouGov poll shows Labour closing the gap in the polls, though not as sharply as before the attack.
Quick! Send more armed troops to patrol marginal seats, for “safety”. Maybe get the BBC to schedule some terrorism thrillers in the days leading up to the election, just to keep things in the voters' minds.
posted by acb at 6:45 AM on May 26, 2017
Quick! Send more armed troops to patrol marginal seats, for “safety”. Maybe get the BBC to schedule some terrorism thrillers in the days leading up to the election, just to keep things in the voters' minds.
posted by acb at 6:45 AM on May 26, 2017
The suspension lasted less than 24 hours and seems to have been more symbolic than anything.
Not really. Tillerson flew in to day Sorry.
Also Jeremy has finally found his nuts and has stated and I paraphrase because I am angry if you stop blowing them up in their homes maybe they wont blow you up in yours.
The normal terrible people probably with vested interests try to shout him down.
posted by adamvasco at 8:29 AM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Not really. Tillerson flew in to day Sorry.
Also Jeremy has finally found his nuts and has stated and I paraphrase because I am angry if you stop blowing them up in their homes maybe they wont blow you up in yours.
The normal terrible people probably with vested interests try to shout him down.
posted by adamvasco at 8:29 AM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Simon Jenkins
We committed armed aggression against sovereign peoples who had not attacked us, claiming our motive was ‘to keep terror off the streets of Britain’
posted by adamvasco at 9:03 AM on May 26, 2017
We committed armed aggression against sovereign peoples who had not attacked us, claiming our motive was ‘to keep terror off the streets of Britain’
posted by adamvasco at 9:03 AM on May 26, 2017
I paraphrase because I am angry if you stop blowing them up in their homes maybe they wont blow you up in yours.
ISIS: I will blow you up, no matter what, unless you convert to the one true flavour of Islam that we represent.
Researchers: Seems "revenge" is indeed pretty far down when we talk to jihadists, it's mostly about rolling things back to the seventh century and hopefully bring about the apocalypse.
Corbyn: I'm not against IRAs bombings, but I'm against all bombings, but it's clearly our fault that some people bomb us. Also, I think Boris said something similar.
Might work with a certain segment of potential voters, though, gotta give him that.
Simon Jenkins
Doesn't he write that article at least once per month?
posted by effbot at 11:18 AM on May 26, 2017
ISIS: I will blow you up, no matter what, unless you convert to the one true flavour of Islam that we represent.
Researchers: Seems "revenge" is indeed pretty far down when we talk to jihadists, it's mostly about rolling things back to the seventh century and hopefully bring about the apocalypse.
Corbyn: I'm not against IRAs bombings, but I'm against all bombings, but it's clearly our fault that some people bomb us. Also, I think Boris said something similar.
Might work with a certain segment of potential voters, though, gotta give him that.
Simon Jenkins
Doesn't he write that article at least once per month?
posted by effbot at 11:18 AM on May 26, 2017
I think the 'revenge' factor is a bit more subtle than taking what ISIS says as the primary motor for jihad. Radicals thrive when unjust forces are harming communities, and people are radicalised because they feel they are suffering at the hands of an identifiable enemy and have no other way to fight back. The people they then ally themselves to, who offer a path forward, are happy to have them, but expect them then to conform to their own stated aims and motivations. You recruit your fighters and you indoctrinate them. As you get more powerful, you can do it the other way around, but you have to have that burning sense of injustice to work with, even if you intend to metastasize it as efficiently as possible.
Put it another way, if Iraq II hadn't happened, there would be no ISIS as we see it today.
posted by Devonian at 11:53 AM on May 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
Put it another way, if Iraq II hadn't happened, there would be no ISIS as we see it today.
posted by Devonian at 11:53 AM on May 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
Using Corbyn and Jenkins' logic, why did ISIS kill 21 people in the Philippines this week? Or kill 3 people in Jakarta? Or kill 20 people in a cafe in Dhaka last year?
posted by My Dad at 12:01 PM on May 26, 2017
posted by My Dad at 12:01 PM on May 26, 2017
It's not about appeasing the hard core of ISIS; they're unappeasable. It's about cut off their suply of angry potential recruits and driving them back to the fringe.
posted by acb at 2:42 PM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 2:42 PM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
How angry do you have to be to detonate a nail bomb at a teeny bopper concert, I wonder?
I do wonder about the wisdom of making Libya a failed state, though.
posted by My Dad at 3:37 PM on May 26, 2017
I do wonder about the wisdom of making Libya a failed state, though.
posted by My Dad at 3:37 PM on May 26, 2017
The more failed states you make the more room their is for this shit to thrive. It's not like the chain of events isnt readily demonstrable these days.
posted by Artw at 3:38 PM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 3:38 PM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
How angry do you have to be to detonate a nail bomb at a teeny bopper concert, I wonder?
Possibly you have to have been angry enough a few years earlier to have been easy prey to be picked up by fanatics promising redressal for your grievances, indoctrinated and pushed through steps of escalatingly extreme acts until you both want to annihilate yourself and murder some children and what would have stopped you in the first place no longer does so.
posted by acb at 4:00 PM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
Possibly you have to have been angry enough a few years earlier to have been easy prey to be picked up by fanatics promising redressal for your grievances, indoctrinated and pushed through steps of escalatingly extreme acts until you both want to annihilate yourself and murder some children and what would have stopped you in the first place no longer does so.
posted by acb at 4:00 PM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
Possibly you have to have been angry enough a few years earlier to have been easy prey to be picked up by fanatics promising redressal for your grievances, indoctrinated and pushed through steps of escalatingly extreme acts until you both want to annihilate yourself and murder some children and what would have stopped you in the first place no longer does so.
You see, I reject the straight line of cause and effect. These guys are no different than Dylan Roof.
posted by My Dad at 9:47 PM on May 26, 2017
You see, I reject the straight line of cause and effect. These guys are no different than Dylan Roof.
posted by My Dad at 9:47 PM on May 26, 2017
They are angry weirdos with chips on their shoulders who have been directed into committing acts of violence, yes.
posted by Artw at 9:54 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:54 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's about cut off their suply of angry potential recruits and driving them back to the fringe.
I agree, but I doubt that "foreign policy" is the recruitment weapon now -- or the source of the anger. It seems to me that the best bet at cutting off the flow is to focus on domestic policy around education, unemployment, poverty and opportunity. Foreign policy is as much of an after-the-fact excuse for these young men as bringing about the Caliphate is.
posted by Aravis76 at 11:31 PM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
I agree, but I doubt that "foreign policy" is the recruitment weapon now -- or the source of the anger. It seems to me that the best bet at cutting off the flow is to focus on domestic policy around education, unemployment, poverty and opportunity. Foreign policy is as much of an after-the-fact excuse for these young men as bringing about the Caliphate is.
posted by Aravis76 at 11:31 PM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Foreign Policy couldn't possibly be causing a sometimes violent and murderous reacion.
'Coalition strikes kill over 106 civilians' in Mayadeen
posted by adamvasco at 5:26 AM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
'Coalition strikes kill over 106 civilians' in Mayadeen
posted by adamvasco at 5:26 AM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Bad foreign policy creates monsters that have to be contained with violence, and that evolve over time. We've had a century (if you don't like that framing, feel free to supply your own) of very bad imperialist/post imperialist Western foreign policy in the ME, and we have a large crop of monsters.
If we try ourselves to evolve a better foreign policy, it won't cut these monsters down. But it will starve them out over time, and prevent new ones appearing. They are still monsters - and saying that it's all about fighting monsters is not enough. You have to stop growing them, too.
Is that so hard to understand? Apparently so, and furthermore saying it makes you a traitor to your country.
It's a bit like saying prisons don't fucking work.You can say this if you're an academic, because that's what all the evidence says, but you can't say it if you're a politician, because then you're soft on crime and want innocent people to die violently at the hands of thugs.
posted by Devonian at 6:34 AM on May 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
If we try ourselves to evolve a better foreign policy, it won't cut these monsters down. But it will starve them out over time, and prevent new ones appearing. They are still monsters - and saying that it's all about fighting monsters is not enough. You have to stop growing them, too.
Is that so hard to understand? Apparently so, and furthermore saying it makes you a traitor to your country.
It's a bit like saying prisons don't fucking work.You can say this if you're an academic, because that's what all the evidence says, but you can't say it if you're a politician, because then you're soft on crime and want innocent people to die violently at the hands of thugs.
posted by Devonian at 6:34 AM on May 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
How angry do you have to be to detonate a nail bomb at a teeny bopper concert, I wonder?
The Euro jihaddis...
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:09 AM on May 27, 2017 [9 favorites]
The Euro jihaddis...
Most of the new radicals are deeply immersed in youth culture: they go to nightclubs, pick up girls, smoke and drink. Nearly 50% of the jihadis in France, according to my database, have a history of petty crime – mainly drug dealing, but also acts of violence and, less frequently, armed robbery. A similar figure is found in Germany and the United States – including a surprising number of arrests for drunk driving. Their dress habits also conform to those of today’s youth: brands, baseball caps, hoods, in other words streetwear, and not even of the Islamic variety.Biographies of ‘homegrown’ European terrorists show they are violent nihilists who adopt Islam, rather than religious fundamentalists who turn to violence
Their musical tastes are also those of the times: they like rap music and go out to clubs. One of the best-known radicalised figures is a German rapper, Denis Cuspert – first known as Deso Dogg, then as Abu Talha al-Almani – who went to fight in Syria. Naturally, they are also gaming enthusiasts and are fond of violent American movies.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:09 AM on May 27, 2017 [9 favorites]
Terrorism: Libya’s civil war comes home to Manchester (from the FT: Google the title if you hit a paywall, and you should see it).
posted by ambrosen at 11:51 AM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Throughout the years of Gaddafi rule in Libya, Manchester was a magnet for Libyan exiles like the Abedis. The city’s Libyan community, one of the largest outside Libya, is tightly knit. “Everyone knows everyone,” says one Libyan living in the city.That seems like a huge mistake. In better times, that alone would end up in a public inquiry, but I think that that's unlikely in the current political environment.
Britain’s intelligence agencies knew the community well, too, and had longstanding dealings with its Islamist contingent. But the attack raises serious questions over their assessment of it. MI5, the UK’s domestic intelligence agency, facilitated the travel of many Islamist Mancunians back to Libya.
posted by ambrosen at 11:51 AM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Biographies of ‘homegrown’ European terrorists show they are violent nihilists who adopt Islam, rather than religious fundamentalists who turn to violence
"Excuse, Not A Reason" is going to end up being the title of chapters on early-21st-Century history.
posted by Etrigan at 12:02 PM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Excuse, Not A Reason" is going to end up being the title of chapters on early-21st-Century history.
posted by Etrigan at 12:02 PM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's been known for a while that terrorists, Muslim or otherwise, tend to be middle-ish class educated young men who have a yen to respond to some perceived ongoing humiliation and a perceived lack of another way to gain social standing. They are rarely from desperate material circumstances themselves, just as they are rarely devout/committed to begin with, outside of the bits of their cause that permit them to commit violence.
It's not 100%, but it is a known and common thing.
See also: that recent Florida story about the Neo-Nazi who became a Muslim extremist and then killed his two Neo-Nazi roommates because they didn't respect his religion. Assholes finding justifications to be assholes.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:50 AM on May 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's not 100%, but it is a known and common thing.
See also: that recent Florida story about the Neo-Nazi who became a Muslim extremist and then killed his two Neo-Nazi roommates because they didn't respect his religion. Assholes finding justifications to be assholes.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:50 AM on May 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's also a known thing that 2nd gen immigrants are a popular source of recruitment, because they may not feel that they fit into "either" world. Most people "double down" on their home country, which is basically what integration is, or they may take up roles within the world of their own local community, but some small number of people will find themselves doubling down on a fantasy image of their parent(s)' homeland, which will often entail levels of romanticism and conservatism not typically possessed by the people who are actually from there.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:01 AM on May 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:01 AM on May 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's been known for a while that terrorists, Muslim or otherwise, tend to be middle-ish class educated young men
Can you provide a citation for that? Because that is not my experience at all though I am speaking of one specific conflict.
posted by billiebee at 10:24 AM on May 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Can you provide a citation for that? Because that is not my experience at all though I am speaking of one specific conflict.
posted by billiebee at 10:24 AM on May 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm phoneposting, so my details are scanty ATM, but Russell and Miller's classic composite terorrist profile is so famous that I can remember it by name, even though of course not all people or conflicts are the same. Here's a link to a more recent paper.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:39 PM on May 28, 2017
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:39 PM on May 28, 2017
Russell and Bowman, rather. So much for memory, LOL.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:54 PM on May 28, 2017
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:54 PM on May 28, 2017
Jihad and Jaffa cakes, or not. It's complicated.
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:48 AM on May 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
The nascent British tradition of jihad appears to involve fewer former convicts than is the case in France, where prisons have become the principal incubators of Islamic extremism, and fewer converts than in the US, where the total tops 40%.British jihadis: who are the first generation of violent extremists?
On the whole, British militants appear poorer than those in the US, but slightly wealthier than those in continental Europe. A high proportion of British jihadis – including Salman Abedi, the Manchester bomber – appear to have been involved with gangs, or some kind of criminal activity, at one stage in their lives. This, however, is true in continental Europe too. There are also high levels of mental illness among British violent extremists, though it is impossible to say if these exceed those elsewhere.
In the UK, in contrast to France and the US, attackers rarely use firearms. The French way of jihad once involved a significant number of armed robbers and has long seen the use of automatic weapons. Attacks in the US have also used such weapons. In the UK – no doubt because of our tight gun laws – they do not.
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:48 AM on May 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
From Mister Bijou's (very good) linked article:
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:01 AM on May 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
Extremist behaviours, like anything else, mix these various elements. Listen to British jihadis: in videos, on Twitter, on Facebook or in more formal interviews. They use the street and gang slang heard in tough neighbourhoods with large immigrant origin populations, plus mispronounced Arabic words, with a scattering of poorly understood religious phrases referring to poorly understood Islamic concepts. This is not the language of global jihad, but of British jihadis.Friendly reminder that, for the making of Four Lions, Chris Morris spent literal years doing literal research.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:01 AM on May 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
And a further friendly reminder to add to Sticherbeast's, if you haven't seen Four Lions you absolutely must. Calling a film 'important' is usually overblown and faintly pretentious: in this case, it's an understatement.
posted by Devonian at 8:36 AM on May 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 8:36 AM on May 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ariana Grande to play concert in Manchester next Sunday with Justin Bieber, Katy Perry, Coldplay and a ton of others. Tickets free for those who were at the MEN.
An extremely brave thing to do.
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:16 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
An extremely brave thing to do.
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:16 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
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