"Don't let powerful men manipulate actions in secret."
June 6, 2017 10:47 AM Subscribe
"All right, it's time. 1 Like = 1 cool thing about the Star Wars prequels. Let's go." In a sprawling thread of 100+ tweets and counting, artist Glendon Mellow explores the mythology, politics, and design of the maligned Star Wars films.
I don't see mention of it but the Star Wars: Racer game for Dreamcast was bomb, and the soundtrack from Episode 1 was easily better than TFA's, which made great BGM for the game.
posted by Space Coyote at 11:06 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Space Coyote at 11:06 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Thanks for this!
posted by curious nu at 11:06 AM on June 6, 2017
posted by curious nu at 11:06 AM on June 6, 2017
The problem with the sequels isn't that there's no decent things about them. The problem is the lousy things about them overwhelm all the decent things.
Yep, and that's kind of what I love about this list. He's not trying to convince you that they're great movies. He's simply pointing out interesting things in them--mostly through an art and design lens.
A lot of prequel apologia I've seen seems almost Time Cube-esque in its drive to prove that all the missteps in the movies are part of some grand plan. This isn't that. It's just someone earnestly engaging with the text.
posted by roll truck roll at 11:10 AM on June 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Yep, and that's kind of what I love about this list. He's not trying to convince you that they're great movies. He's simply pointing out interesting things in them--mostly through an art and design lens.
A lot of prequel apologia I've seen seems almost Time Cube-esque in its drive to prove that all the missteps in the movies are part of some grand plan. This isn't that. It's just someone earnestly engaging with the text.
posted by roll truck roll at 11:10 AM on June 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Say what you want about the prequels (and they are terrible)--at least they're terrible in interesting ways, unlike, Rogue One, which was terrible in a boring and entirely predicable way.
posted by Automocar at 11:12 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Automocar at 11:12 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was kinda thinking "This guy is putting in a lot more work to justify things than Lucas did", and then I got to him spending three tweets on how Darth Maul is cool because he doesn't say anything, just a few tweets after he justly complained that Boba Fett didn't do shit in Empire, and I was done.
I get that some people like the prequels. (I also think that a lot of people are pretending to like them to shock the squares, but I don't think this guy's one of them.) But (and I say this every few months) here's the difference between Star Wars fans and Star Trek fans: Star Wars fans like the Star Wars in their heads more than the Star Wars on the screen, while Star Trek fans like each about the same. This guy has a really good prequel series in his head, and he's managed to convince himself that it's the same as the one on the screen because you can sort of squint and line up some of the shots between the two.
posted by Etrigan at 11:12 AM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
I get that some people like the prequels. (I also think that a lot of people are pretending to like them to shock the squares, but I don't think this guy's one of them.) But (and I say this every few months) here's the difference between Star Wars fans and Star Trek fans: Star Wars fans like the Star Wars in their heads more than the Star Wars on the screen, while Star Trek fans like each about the same. This guy has a really good prequel series in his head, and he's managed to convince himself that it's the same as the one on the screen because you can sort of squint and line up some of the shots between the two.
posted by Etrigan at 11:12 AM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
ugh prequel apologists should be sent to the spice mines of kessel
posted by entropicamericana at 11:15 AM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 11:15 AM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
but what about the droid attack on the wookiees
posted by jason_steakums at 11:17 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 11:17 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Halfway down - As an artist, I admire that Lucas has artists creating concepts while he was still writing, to play off of it.
That IS great, and if he'd approached the rest of the creative process like it appears he approached the visuals, the movies would have been so much better.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:19 AM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
That IS great, and if he'd approached the rest of the creative process like it appears he approached the visuals, the movies would have been so much better.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:19 AM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
okay i told myself I wouldn't do this but:
> Zam Wesell's costume is almost as cool as Boussh.
With apologies to jim kirk, "pardon me, but what does a shapeshifter need with a face mask?"
posted by entropicamericana at 11:24 AM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
> Zam Wesell's costume is almost as cool as Boussh.
With apologies to jim kirk, "pardon me, but what does a shapeshifter need with a face mask?"
posted by entropicamericana at 11:24 AM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
The difficulty I have always had with the prequels is not that they don't contain some good stuff; it's that the core of it - Anakin's fall - doesn't carry the emotional heft that it should, and that many of the beats of the films miss the mark or, in full retrospect, undermine the points of the original trilogy.
I guess the thing now is to say that the prequels were demonstrating a Republic that was old and corrupt and ready for collapse. Ok, I can accept that but, I still say that the first 6 Star Wars films are all text and no subtext in terms of the intent of the creator. So what we are doing is projecting our own stories into these films (which is fine), but I don't think that Lucas intended to demonstrate the Old Republic as a humans-only racist/speciesist society. Happy to proven wrong on that; but the OT still puts human characters as the central heroes, and the aliens as loveable supports and sidekicks (and, from a Doyalist perspective, I understand that - the effects and expense were too much to ask at the time; but from a Watsonian perspective, is the Rebellion really building relationships with these aliens or just using them to return to power?)
Anyways, how do I square that vision of the Old Republic as corrupt and deserving to fall with Obi-Wan's wistful recollections of the Republic in the OT? Why should I then support the Rebels in attempting to restore what was an corrupt, ineffective, hide-bound society?
Past that, the staging and CGI of the prequels actually work against it for me at several points. There is no understanding that less is more - during battle sequences, every square inch of the screen seems to get stuffed with details and ships and other things. Case in point - during the climactic duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin on the lava planet, as they duel on a couple of levitating platforms over the lava, there's a droid that hums by and does a startled double-take. Why? This is not the moment for cheap humour or a gag, and the scene needs no distractions. But there it is. Or the horrible scene in which Anakin reveals to Windu that Palpatine is a Sith - the dialogue speaks directly to the urgency with which they must act, but because our poor actors are on a soundstage in front of a greenscreen, they can't rush anywhere - to do so would mean they run out of physical room to complete the dialogue. So they speak of urgency with no urgency in physical terms.
Anyways, I'm re-litigating the prequels and I shouldn't bother. Were there good things about them? Yes, absolutely - the podracing was great, and the plot of the Emperor does work in making the Jedi look to be the bad guys to a certain extent, and Ewan McGregor was obviously having a great time and putting everything he could into the performance. But the things that I can find that are right are pretty superficial to what I think that the prequels were supposed to do: make us care about Anakin enough to justify the shift of the moral arc of the films off of Luke and onto Anakin. The Empire/Republic dichotomy should be an echo of that moral arc as well, but I don't think that gets tied in strongly enough anywhere.
posted by nubs at 11:32 AM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
I guess the thing now is to say that the prequels were demonstrating a Republic that was old and corrupt and ready for collapse. Ok, I can accept that but, I still say that the first 6 Star Wars films are all text and no subtext in terms of the intent of the creator. So what we are doing is projecting our own stories into these films (which is fine), but I don't think that Lucas intended to demonstrate the Old Republic as a humans-only racist/speciesist society. Happy to proven wrong on that; but the OT still puts human characters as the central heroes, and the aliens as loveable supports and sidekicks (and, from a Doyalist perspective, I understand that - the effects and expense were too much to ask at the time; but from a Watsonian perspective, is the Rebellion really building relationships with these aliens or just using them to return to power?)
Anyways, how do I square that vision of the Old Republic as corrupt and deserving to fall with Obi-Wan's wistful recollections of the Republic in the OT? Why should I then support the Rebels in attempting to restore what was an corrupt, ineffective, hide-bound society?
Past that, the staging and CGI of the prequels actually work against it for me at several points. There is no understanding that less is more - during battle sequences, every square inch of the screen seems to get stuffed with details and ships and other things. Case in point - during the climactic duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin on the lava planet, as they duel on a couple of levitating platforms over the lava, there's a droid that hums by and does a startled double-take. Why? This is not the moment for cheap humour or a gag, and the scene needs no distractions. But there it is. Or the horrible scene in which Anakin reveals to Windu that Palpatine is a Sith - the dialogue speaks directly to the urgency with which they must act, but because our poor actors are on a soundstage in front of a greenscreen, they can't rush anywhere - to do so would mean they run out of physical room to complete the dialogue. So they speak of urgency with no urgency in physical terms.
Anyways, I'm re-litigating the prequels and I shouldn't bother. Were there good things about them? Yes, absolutely - the podracing was great, and the plot of the Emperor does work in making the Jedi look to be the bad guys to a certain extent, and Ewan McGregor was obviously having a great time and putting everything he could into the performance. But the things that I can find that are right are pretty superficial to what I think that the prequels were supposed to do: make us care about Anakin enough to justify the shift of the moral arc of the films off of Luke and onto Anakin. The Empire/Republic dichotomy should be an echo of that moral arc as well, but I don't think that gets tied in strongly enough anywhere.
posted by nubs at 11:32 AM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
In a sprawling thread of 100+ tweets and counting
Get
A
Blog
posted by indubitable at 11:32 AM on June 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
Get
A
Blog
posted by indubitable at 11:32 AM on June 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
_Phantom Menace_ was quite good, if suffering from a saggy sequence in the middle. I thought it was brilliant that it turned out that that they did it to themselves -- that the revered heroes of the republic turned out to have cut their own throats. _Attack of the Clones_ was just kind of dull, and I never saw _Revenge of the Sith_, given I knew it would amp up the things I thought weakest in the previous.
Most of the endless, endless whining about them is based in the fact that people had 20 years to obsessively fantasize their personal vision of what the prequels should be, which nothing was ever going to live up to (I had a friend who watched one or the other of the originals nearly every single night throughout college. And they weren't viewed as particularly odd or geeky.)
posted by tavella at 11:38 AM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Most of the endless, endless whining about them is based in the fact that people had 20 years to obsessively fantasize their personal vision of what the prequels should be, which nothing was ever going to live up to (I had a friend who watched one or the other of the originals nearly every single night throughout college. And they weren't viewed as particularly odd or geeky.)
posted by tavella at 11:38 AM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
To me, the prequels were like a disappointing partner -- comes on strong and charming and amazing, then you find yourself constantly explaining how that one thing they did that sucked wasn't so bad, or was actually really cool if you take it in context, or doesn't matter so much when you look at how wonderful everything else is ... Then you realize that it's not other people that you're explaining all that to, it's yourself.
Anakin doesn't have crap romantic dialogue because he was raised as a "teen monk," he has crap romantic dialogue because this is late-period Star Wars and no one could tell Lucas no. It's a good retcon, but take it all in all, they're just not good movies. There's a lot of wasted potential in every character, to be sure, but wasted is what it was.
The Yoda fight was worth the price of admission, though. Once.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:39 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Anakin doesn't have crap romantic dialogue because he was raised as a "teen monk," he has crap romantic dialogue because this is late-period Star Wars and no one could tell Lucas no. It's a good retcon, but take it all in all, they're just not good movies. There's a lot of wasted potential in every character, to be sure, but wasted is what it was.
The Yoda fight was worth the price of admission, though. Once.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:39 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
he has crap romantic dialogue because this is late-period Star Wars and no one could tell Lucas no.
Yeah you'll notice that these are mostly big concept or visual things and not acting, writing, or directing. The prequels didn't fail because the major strokes were bad or even because of stuff like midocholorians, but because the writing was terrible and they got terrible performances out even their good actors.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:42 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Yeah you'll notice that these are mostly big concept or visual things and not acting, writing, or directing. The prequels didn't fail because the major strokes were bad or even because of stuff like midocholorians, but because the writing was terrible and they got terrible performances out even their good actors.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:42 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm a prequel apologist. There's an edited version of attack of the clones on YouTube that is surprisingly watchable.
I'm an apologist because at least he tried to do something new. Unlike the new movie which was such a rehash, I felt so pandered to.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:47 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm an apologist because at least he tried to do something new. Unlike the new movie which was such a rehash, I felt so pandered to.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:47 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
The difficulty I have always had with the prequels is not that they don't contain some good stuff; it's that the core of it - Anakin's fall - doesn't carry the emotional heft that it should, and that many of the beats of the films miss the mark or, in full retrospect, undermine the points of the original trilogy.
That's true...of the prequels. Unfortunately (or fortunately), this ground is far better covered in non-movie threads hanging off the main story. Things like the animated clone wars and rebels series and the recent Darth Vader comicbooks all service this part of the story (and many other parts, as well) much, much better.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 11:49 AM on June 6, 2017
That's true...of the prequels. Unfortunately (or fortunately), this ground is far better covered in non-movie threads hanging off the main story. Things like the animated clone wars and rebels series and the recent Darth Vader comicbooks all service this part of the story (and many other parts, as well) much, much better.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 11:49 AM on June 6, 2017
When "watchable" becomes praise.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 11:49 AM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Senor Cardgage at 11:49 AM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Yeah, the Force Awakens actors were charming, which made it watchable, but Abrams solved the dilemma of all those hard-wired beliefs that the prequels ran into by simply repeating the original. Which of course would be pleasant and comforting to fans. I'll give him points for at least repeating it with a diverse cast, though.
posted by tavella at 11:50 AM on June 6, 2017
posted by tavella at 11:50 AM on June 6, 2017
Also, I've realized that we, the audience, take star wars way more seriously than Lucas ever did. It has always just been a bubblegum pop movie matinee serial to him. Once I realized this, I totally understood what he was doing and why he made the decisions he did.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:51 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:51 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's nice to see someone taking the time to notice and comment on the production design and other background elements of the filmmaking process. It's something that can be interesting and enlightening about a great many films, especially ones with significant time and budget involved. Hollywood art departments take their jobs seriously and can be more than window dressing if the director and studio let them. Though, sure, they can make bad choices too, just like any other person involved with the films, but the kind of attention to detail in the design such as the author discusses isn't out of the ordinary, which you can verify by listening to any film commentaries that are done by the art departments.
The prequels still suck, but not everyone involved was incompetent. Hell, I'd even say all the Star Wars films success owes way more to the production and sound design people than Lucas, the directors, writers, and cast but that likely isn't a view that would win me many friends among the fans of the franchise.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:03 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
The prequels still suck, but not everyone involved was incompetent. Hell, I'd even say all the Star Wars films success owes way more to the production and sound design people than Lucas, the directors, writers, and cast but that likely isn't a view that would win me many friends among the fans of the franchise.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:03 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, I've realized that we, the audience, take star wars way more seriously than Lucas ever did.
You definitely have a point here, St Pepsburg. I recently read the 1977 Rolling Stone interview where Lucas first gave away the ending of ROTS (lightsaber fight, lava pit, don't have time to find the link right now), and seemed clear even at that early stage that he considered Star Wars to be a children's movie designed mainly to sell toys.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 12:05 PM on June 6, 2017
You definitely have a point here, St Pepsburg. I recently read the 1977 Rolling Stone interview where Lucas first gave away the ending of ROTS (lightsaber fight, lava pit, don't have time to find the link right now), and seemed clear even at that early stage that he considered Star Wars to be a children's movie designed mainly to sell toys.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 12:05 PM on June 6, 2017
"Star Wars fans like the Star Wars in their heads more than the Star Wars on the screen"
Etrigan nailed it here, at least for me as a Star Wars fan. I'm a super fan boy, nerd collector, but honestly, having more movies is kinda meh. The entire Star Wars universe (that matters) is in my head and I can enter it at any time.
Oh, and the prequels suck. As huge of a Star Wars fan as I am, I couldn't tell you the plots, who the main characters, ever who is good and bad. I try watching them, but I just can't take it.
posted by dripdripdrop at 12:10 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Etrigan nailed it here, at least for me as a Star Wars fan. I'm a super fan boy, nerd collector, but honestly, having more movies is kinda meh. The entire Star Wars universe (that matters) is in my head and I can enter it at any time.
Oh, and the prequels suck. As huge of a Star Wars fan as I am, I couldn't tell you the plots, who the main characters, ever who is good and bad. I try watching them, but I just can't take it.
posted by dripdripdrop at 12:10 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's kind of on you, though, not the movies. Qui Gon is just as vivid a character as anything from Star Wars, the bad guys are not subtle, etc. It's totally legitimate to prefer the movie you wrote in your head, but that doesn't make it Lucas' fault that you therefore can't watch the movie that came from *his* head.
posted by tavella at 12:17 PM on June 6, 2017
posted by tavella at 12:17 PM on June 6, 2017
I'm an apologist because at least he tried to do something new.
which is, of course, why boba fett, chewbacca, greedo, etc. were in the prequels. not fan service at all. thankfully he was somehow stopped before he shoehorned Li'l Han Solo in Episode III too
posted by entropicamericana at 12:18 PM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
which is, of course, why boba fett, chewbacca, greedo, etc. were in the prequels. not fan service at all. thankfully he was somehow stopped before he shoehorned Li'l Han Solo in Episode III too
posted by entropicamericana at 12:18 PM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's nice to see someone taking the time to notice and comment on the production design and other background elements of the filmmaking process.
Yeah. An exhibit of a bunch of SW costumes came through the Denver Art Museum recently, and we went. It was heavy on prequel stuff, particularly Padme's outfits. I expected not to care about that stuff at all, but holy shit the level of craft and attention on display there for things that may have had a few seconds of screen time. Totally worth seeing.
Yeah, taken as whole, the prequels sucked. But it's pretty staggering the amount of care and effort that can go into even the smallest corners of a production like that.
posted by brennen at 12:18 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah. An exhibit of a bunch of SW costumes came through the Denver Art Museum recently, and we went. It was heavy on prequel stuff, particularly Padme's outfits. I expected not to care about that stuff at all, but holy shit the level of craft and attention on display there for things that may have had a few seconds of screen time. Totally worth seeing.
Yeah, taken as whole, the prequels sucked. But it's pretty staggering the amount of care and effort that can go into even the smallest corners of a production like that.
posted by brennen at 12:18 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
What George Lucas did right in the prequels (and the "original" trilogy) was create awesome space ships.
The space ships in the Force Awakens totally suck. BORING. The only fun parts of Rogue One were the spaceship battles. Which relied on Lucas' spaceship designs.
Every single space ship in the prequels look awesome. Great visual imagination.
posted by My Dad at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
The space ships in the Force Awakens totally suck. BORING. The only fun parts of Rogue One were the spaceship battles. Which relied on Lucas' spaceship designs.
Every single space ship in the prequels look awesome. Great visual imagination.
posted by My Dad at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
I appreciated the reminder that Ani was an abused urchin who immediately became a space monk, and to view his romantic flailing through that lens. That helps a lot.
posted by turkeybrain at 12:46 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by turkeybrain at 12:46 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Duel of the Fates" is my favorite part of the prequels, and I hope it somehow gets reused in the new trilogy, because that is an incredible, truly epic piece of music.
posted by gucci mane at 1:01 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by gucci mane at 1:01 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ewan McGregor was obviously having a great time and putting everything he could into the performance
IMO, there are two good things about the prequels:
1. Ewan McGregor
2. The score
I love Sam Jackson, don't get me wrong, but Mace Windu didn't do shit in those movies.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:11 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
IMO, there are two good things about the prequels:
1. Ewan McGregor
2. The score
I love Sam Jackson, don't get me wrong, but Mace Windu didn't do shit in those movies.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:11 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
how do I square that vision of the Old Republic as corrupt and deserving to fall with Obi-Wan's wistful recollections of the Republic in the OT?
I'd hold that it's possible, indeed was done later. The animated Clone Wars does a decent job in showing some of the strains of the Republic and how it isn't all sweetness and light out on the edges. It also sets up the third movie, spanning the interval between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Had the story of Ashoka been condensed and been the first and second acts of the last prequel, I think it would have been vastly improved.
posted by bonehead at 1:42 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'd hold that it's possible, indeed was done later. The animated Clone Wars does a decent job in showing some of the strains of the Republic and how it isn't all sweetness and light out on the edges. It also sets up the third movie, spanning the interval between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Had the story of Ashoka been condensed and been the first and second acts of the last prequel, I think it would have been vastly improved.
posted by bonehead at 1:42 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Has someone collated these into a readable format?
I cannot bear long-form stuff on Twitter. I can never seem to find it all.
posted by auntie-matter at 2:26 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I cannot bear long-form stuff on Twitter. I can never seem to find it all.
posted by auntie-matter at 2:26 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
This was awesome! There is so much that is good and cool and fascinating about the prequels. That they never really come together as a satisfying cinematic gestalt is as tragic as it is well-attested and I eagerly anticipate the day when stumbling in to say "actually, they are very bad movies," is no longer the reflexive response when they come up in discussion.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:37 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:37 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
I nth that the last thing I want to read is 100+ tweets. This is one of those things I hate about Twitter: if you have that much to say, WRITE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE AND POST A LINK TO TWITTER.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:52 PM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:52 PM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
See, as a grown adult who saw Stars Wars in the theater at age 6, I have come to loathe Star Wars. But Twitter, on the other hand, I have come to love...
posted by My Dad at 3:56 PM on June 6, 2017
posted by My Dad at 3:56 PM on June 6, 2017
I also think that a lot of people are pretending to like them to shock the squares
This is definitely a thing.
Look, I get it: those who grew up with the prequels have fond memories of them, because they saw them first when they themselves were kids. I also get that you can make the same argument about the original trilogy, and I would totally agree that to some extent the older fans are viewing it through rose-tinted glasses. The difference, though, is this: while the original trilogy definitely has some weak parts when looked back at from outside the golden glow of childhood memory (RotJ's second act, in particular), when you look at the prequels in the same way, you find that all three are hot garbage, start to finish.
The only aspects of the prequels that are any good are good because they remind us of other, better Star Wars stuff (and I'm not just talking about the original trilogy -- I think a lot of the uptick in apologists is because people rightfully like the much-better TV shows that came after).
To me, hearing someone born in the '90s/'00s argue that any of the prequels are actually good movies is about as credible as someone born in the '70s/'80s arguing that no, really, Beastmaster 2 is a great movie.
posted by tocts at 3:57 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is definitely a thing.
Look, I get it: those who grew up with the prequels have fond memories of them, because they saw them first when they themselves were kids. I also get that you can make the same argument about the original trilogy, and I would totally agree that to some extent the older fans are viewing it through rose-tinted glasses. The difference, though, is this: while the original trilogy definitely has some weak parts when looked back at from outside the golden glow of childhood memory (RotJ's second act, in particular), when you look at the prequels in the same way, you find that all three are hot garbage, start to finish.
The only aspects of the prequels that are any good are good because they remind us of other, better Star Wars stuff (and I'm not just talking about the original trilogy -- I think a lot of the uptick in apologists is because people rightfully like the much-better TV shows that came after).
To me, hearing someone born in the '90s/'00s argue that any of the prequels are actually good movies is about as credible as someone born in the '70s/'80s arguing that no, really, Beastmaster 2 is a great movie.
posted by tocts at 3:57 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Still need to give the prequels credit for predicting our modern political era.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:28 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 4:28 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I was born in the 1960s and saw Star Wars as a 10 year old. I was as taken by them as any other 10 year old at the time, and I still have great affection for them. However, I also recognize that they are seriously flawed movies -- SW has so many stumblingly awkward bits of dialogue, C-3PO is as much a caricature of a gay butler as Jar Jar is Jamaican, there's as much cheese as there is art -- primarily redeemed by a cheerful vigor and pace, likeable actors, and their groundbreaking place in history.
However, because I didn't obsess on them, I could take the prequels as they are, without any preconceptions or ridiculous levels of expectation. So I can admire the plotting of TPM, think that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were absolutely perfectly what you would want out of Republic Jedi, in being magnificent in action and blinkered by tradition, think that AotC had its moments and was watchable but duller than it should have been, etc... and be entirely aware there wasn't a huge quality difference between them and the originals. They all had their strengths and great moments, they all had serious flaws (yes, even TESB.)
posted by tavella at 4:43 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
However, because I didn't obsess on them, I could take the prequels as they are, without any preconceptions or ridiculous levels of expectation. So I can admire the plotting of TPM, think that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were absolutely perfectly what you would want out of Republic Jedi, in being magnificent in action and blinkered by tradition, think that AotC had its moments and was watchable but duller than it should have been, etc... and be entirely aware there wasn't a huge quality difference between them and the originals. They all had their strengths and great moments, they all had serious flaws (yes, even TESB.)
posted by tavella at 4:43 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh crap, I read that essay that was linked somewhere in that thread about circles and now I'm convinced that the prequels are both terrible and perfect, and quite possibly the most successfully audacious piece of art since Wagner's Ring Cycle.
posted by General Malaise at 4:52 PM on June 6, 2017
posted by General Malaise at 4:52 PM on June 6, 2017
I appreciated the reminder that Ani was an abused urchin who immediately became a space monk, and to view his romantic flailing through that lens.
And that'd be great if that's how it was written, but it wasn't.
The only space monk is Lucas. Harrison Ford famously said "George, you can type this shit, but you can't say it!" But there were no naysayers in the prequels. Everybody just stood in front of a green screen and said what he typed, and what he typed was bad.
I'm an apologist because at least he tried to do something new.
Yeah that story about the kid who gets picked up on Tatooine by a Jedi and learns to become a Jedi but is tempted by Palpatine to turn to the dark side in order to save his loved ones came out of nowhere
posted by obiwanwasabi at 5:35 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
And that'd be great if that's how it was written, but it wasn't.
The only space monk is Lucas. Harrison Ford famously said "George, you can type this shit, but you can't say it!" But there were no naysayers in the prequels. Everybody just stood in front of a green screen and said what he typed, and what he typed was bad.
I'm an apologist because at least he tried to do something new.
Yeah that story about the kid who gets picked up on Tatooine by a Jedi and learns to become a Jedi but is tempted by Palpatine to turn to the dark side in order to save his loved ones came out of nowhere
posted by obiwanwasabi at 5:35 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I haven't watched the TV shows so my apologist stance comes by way of the blatant rehash of The Force Awakens. Seeing something so spot on and yet empty candy changed it all. I came home and watched Ep4 with the hubs (not a SW fan himself) and seeing it through new eyes realized how simple the story really was. Is. But it was so f*ing magical when I was a kid...
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:44 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:44 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
The most glaring flaw of both the Prequels and The Force Awakens is that none of them so far has addressed the elephant in the room that is Bigger Luke. (Previously.)
posted by tobascodagama at 6:58 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 6:58 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also, the final act of A New Hope is literally just The Dam Busters. LITERALLY. The. Same.
Spare me the whole "The Force Awakens is just a rehash" thing, especially if you're going to serve a side of prequel revisionism along with it.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:00 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Spare me the whole "The Force Awakens is just a rehash" thing, especially if you're going to serve a side of prequel revisionism along with it.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:00 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Yoda fight was worth the price of admission, though. Once.
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I thought the Yoda/Dooku (ugh!) fight was exactly wrong. Instead of the Force making him a tiny ninja, Yoda should have just calmly held up one hand, and suddenly Dooku finds that he is completely unable to move. Yoda casually takes Dooku's lightsaber, destroys it, and goes on to his next task, leaving the count still struggling to move.
That, to me, would have been more in keeping with Yoda as we know him on Dagobah, plus more badass in general.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:13 PM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I thought the Yoda/Dooku (ugh!) fight was exactly wrong. Instead of the Force making him a tiny ninja, Yoda should have just calmly held up one hand, and suddenly Dooku finds that he is completely unable to move. Yoda casually takes Dooku's lightsaber, destroys it, and goes on to his next task, leaving the count still struggling to move.
That, to me, would have been more in keeping with Yoda as we know him on Dagobah, plus more badass in general.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:13 PM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
Yeahbut they figured out how to make him bounce around like a jumping bean so by god he was gonna do just that.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:20 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:20 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I thought the Yoda/Dooku (ugh!) fight was exactly wrong.
Yes! Yoda seems diminished by having to jump around everywhere. He should be able to accomplish his goals without wasting all that energy. It was one of the most disappointing moments because the force is versatile enough that there were so many different ways it could have gone, but they went with a boring choice.
(And Dooku- why are you using your lightsaber? The ground is covered in dust and pebbles. Telekinetically, you could stir up the dust to try to blind your opponents, and fling pebbles at bullet-like speeds.)
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:49 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yes! Yoda seems diminished by having to jump around everywhere. He should be able to accomplish his goals without wasting all that energy. It was one of the most disappointing moments because the force is versatile enough that there were so many different ways it could have gone, but they went with a boring choice.
(And Dooku- why are you using your lightsaber? The ground is covered in dust and pebbles. Telekinetically, you could stir up the dust to try to blind your opponents, and fling pebbles at bullet-like speeds.)
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:49 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm nthing Etrigan's point that all this is about the movie in your head. It's like some weird artistic judo, where the prequels are so lacking in coherence that (some) viewers end up providing all the force.
The plot elements certainly could have been put together to be about colonialism or Annakin's problem being he was a teen monk--there are certainly movies that have made much of those conflicts. Then we could discuss how icky and retrograde it was that the downfall of the Republic was that this great celibate hero fell into evil because he was exposed to a female temptress. But that's so far removed from the actual movie that what's the point?
posted by mark k at 10:09 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
The plot elements certainly could have been put together to be about colonialism or Annakin's problem being he was a teen monk--there are certainly movies that have made much of those conflicts. Then we could discuss how icky and retrograde it was that the downfall of the Republic was that this great celibate hero fell into evil because he was exposed to a female temptress. But that's so far removed from the actual movie that what's the point?
posted by mark k at 10:09 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Twitter is proof that there are only two hard problems in computer science: showing posts in chronological order, and paying women the same as men.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:08 AM on June 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:08 AM on June 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's probably worth noting the effect Marcia Lucas had on the original trilogy. It's a long read, but interesting. You can skip ahead to the Star Wars part about halfway down the page, but note that she was a skilled editor with very much her own strong career independent of what George Lucas was doing.
posted by Fleebnork at 9:17 AM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Fleebnork at 9:17 AM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
I have, quite literally, spent more time rewatching the Holiday Special than all the prequels put together, but my favorite five seconds in all of Star Wars occur during Phantom Menace: during the fight in the [tech] substation, when the [plot contrivance] beams separate Qui-Gonn from Darth Maul. The Sith paces like a caged predator, the Jedi promptly sits seiza. I think it’s the most character-appropriate choreography in any fight sequence in the series.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:31 PM on June 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by nicepersonality at 7:31 PM on June 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yes! Yoda seems diminished by having to jump around everywhere. He should be able to accomplish his goals without wasting all that energy. It was one of the most disappointing moments because the force is versatile enough that there were so many different ways it could have gone, but they went with a boring choice.
My rationalization for lightsabre fights is that when two force-users are approximately equally matched, their telekinesis and other force tricks cancel each other out and it's only their own bodies over which they have unfettered control. This is consistent with the way Vader uses telekinesis against Luke in Empire but not so much in Jedi.
But overall Yoda's "size matters not" bromides in Empire are either complete BS or something theoretical that is as much aspirational for Yoda as it is for Luke.
posted by straight at 10:40 AM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
My rationalization for lightsabre fights is that when two force-users are approximately equally matched, their telekinesis and other force tricks cancel each other out and it's only their own bodies over which they have unfettered control. This is consistent with the way Vader uses telekinesis against Luke in Empire but not so much in Jedi.
But overall Yoda's "size matters not" bromides in Empire are either complete BS or something theoretical that is as much aspirational for Yoda as it is for Luke.
posted by straight at 10:40 AM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
My rationalization for lightsabre fights is that when two force-users are approximately equally matched, their telekinesis and other force tricks cancel each other out and it's only their own bodies over which they have unfettered control.
I appreciate that rationalization, but I have to say that (which much love for Christopher Lee) Dooku's line of "It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber" is cringe inducing. To me, it undermines the understanding of the Force that Yoda taught back in ESB in so many ways; it's about how the Force is used, not the weapon/tool.
To me, that scene is part of a problem I see developing in Star Wars as the franchise has continued - the fetishization of the light saber, of placing more importance on the flashy bits than anything else.
posted by nubs at 12:32 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I appreciate that rationalization, but I have to say that (which much love for Christopher Lee) Dooku's line of "It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber" is cringe inducing. To me, it undermines the understanding of the Force that Yoda taught back in ESB in so many ways; it's about how the Force is used, not the weapon/tool.
To me, that scene is part of a problem I see developing in Star Wars as the franchise has continued - the fetishization of the light saber, of placing more importance on the flashy bits than anything else.
posted by nubs at 12:32 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
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As far as decent things about the sequels go, this is a pretty comprehensive and well thought -out list, though I wish it were in a better format than tweetstorm.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:04 AM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]