The Answer Is Never
June 6, 2017 11:41 AM   Subscribe

Spoiler alert: I don’t have a change of heart at the end of this essay. This is a story about not changing my mind and not having regret. To hives lady, the contractors and all the other bodega owners with cats: I am writing my final no-thank-you note.
posted by eotvos (165 comments total) 42 users marked this as a favorite
 
I am a grown woman and can very well distinguish between babies and cats. For starters, cats catch mice and use a litter box. And I don’t know about your cat, but mine doesn’t have a college fund.

The author is clearly a monster.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:57 AM on June 6, 2017 [12 favorites]


Hmmm..

Everyone should 1000% have the right to choose whether to have kids or not. The pressure women are put under to reproduce is misogynistic. Annddd...

I think this issue is complicated. The author alludes to a big question at the end: Who will care for childless people when they age? Will they be left alone? It's not that any individual should be compelled to have children, it's that as society fractures into smaller and smaller units, we have lost an intergenerational community safety net of support. Having younger people in our lives protects us as older people, and having children is one especially likely way to ensure a caretaker when we are elderly, in a world where elderly people are neglected and abandoned.

The other thing that makes me kind of pause on this is that the framing of choosing childlessness as a feminist issue is that different cultures have wildly different attitudes regarding children. In white American middle and upper class culture, I think it's fair to generalize that kids are fairly segregated from the rest of life. But in many communities of color for example, even someone who does not have their own children is likely to have kids much more present in their spheres. Kids are more a part of social gatherings, people, speaking very generally, may have more of a sense of obligation to be part of caring for children of friends and extended family members. I personally bristle at the idea that it's just cool to say, "I don't like kids" and choose to exclude children from your life totally. Obv, anyone can make that choice, but I think a healthy society requires that we do interact with, and even help protect our more vulnerable members, and our members of all ages. We're not just individuals. We are part of a community, whether we want to be or not.
posted by latkes at 11:58 AM on June 6, 2017 [25 favorites]


We so rarely hear from those who really choose to be childless. . .

Welcome to MeFi. You're going to like it here.
posted by The Bellman at 12:00 PM on June 6, 2017 [61 favorites]


(Don’t even mention teenagers.)

boy this tests my sympathy. I cannot be the only unchilded woman in the world who actually doesn't at all mind people thinking I hate babies as long as they know I like teenagers. young teens are almost as great as adults: they are angry, they have a lot of free time, they mostly don't fear death, and they have a lot of opinions and useless knowledge because they mostly don't have jobs and thus only mute their brains partway with drinking, not most of the way with drinking and work both. the three best kinds of people are 30s/40s women without kids, cats, and disaffected teens, in that order. we're all great.

also I wish people wouldn't compare having children to bungee jumping into the grand canyon or something equally grandiose, even if stupid. what it is actually like is picking a random roommate from the craigslist personals without reading their description and signing a contract that you won't kick them out for 18 years, no matter what their personality turns out to be like. also, if you hate them and they hate you, it's completely your own fault and nobody will be on your side about it. there is no way to have a child that is not inviting a random complete stranger into your home. you can call this brave if you want to, and maybe it is, but it is not brave in the macho mountain-dew-commercial-skydiving way of so many popular procreation metaphors.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:03 PM on June 6, 2017 [89 favorites]


And I don’t know about your cat, but mine doesn’t have a college fund.

Our cat, Dr. Cat (MD, PhD) has a tenure dossier, so we dodged that bullet.

Honestly, until recently I really didn't buy that "oh, why bring children into this dreadful, dreadful world" line, but in the past few years, when climate change is really starting to hit hard and we can start to see the shape of things to come, I feel differently. You can hope for a better future when it's a matter of merely political change, but we're looking at four degrees, here, and the real possibility that complex human civilization will not persist past this century. I think that the future is authentically, independent of Trump, very bleak and dangerous.

Now, my friends' kids are great people, and if - god forbid - they should need to be housed and fed and their other legion of friends didn't already step in, I would take them in without a second thought. But I do not envy them for what they have to face. In 2050, I'll be dead - probably well before 2050. Absent some mass extinction, many of my friends' kids will have to survive in a hotter, poorer, sicker and more dangerous world ruled by god knows who.
posted by Frowner at 12:11 PM on June 6, 2017 [29 favorites]


I am always astonished at how lucky I've been to escape most of this crap from other people. I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, how often I've been given shit for not having children (and I'm 53, so I don't imagine there will be any more ever). The kind of harassment she, and many many others, describe would turn me into a serial killer.
posted by JanetLand at 12:19 PM on June 6, 2017 [10 favorites]


My mother constantly told me that she would never stop being my mom. Even after I was all grown up and could do everything myself and I didn't need her anymore, she'd still be my mom. Because that's what mothers do.

While I understand now that she was merely trying to give me a sense of security and comfort in knowing that I would always have that support system of mother, it had the added effect of instilling in me a nameless dread of being a mother. It would be a job forever and there's no escape. This has been one of the major underlying factors in my decision to stay childless. It never occured to me that one could be a mother and continue to be the person that you were before motherhood. It never dawned on me until much later in life that women actually did become mothers and not be overly devoted to every single thing your child is doing.

This was yet another good article on the long standing fight of a woman to stay childless in the constant onslaught of "what a woman should do."
posted by teleri025 at 12:20 PM on June 6, 2017 [29 favorites]


We have to hear it because most people have kids, and most people like you to make the same decisions they did.

I generally like these kinds of articles, because I like to hear from people who made the same decisions I did, until it goes to this;

And why are men so rarely questioned about their decision to (not) have children, let alone pressured to justify their choice?

OH. GOD. NO. I thought it would never end, but it slowed down a lot in my mid 40's. I suspect though that's only because of my wife's age and biology, if I had a younger wife I'm sure it would still be going on.
posted by bongo_x at 12:21 PM on June 6, 2017 [7 favorites]


"I personally bristle at the idea that it's just cool to say, "I don't like kids" and choose to exclude children from your life totally."

Speaking as a cisgender heterosexual white American male, it is rare that I come to MetaFilter and find something that is directed at me and offends me, especially something baseless like this. I guess it's my lucky day.

How and where I interact with kids (and the absolutely minimal frequency of that interaction) is my choice. Liking kids? Liking the idea of having kids? That's as much a choice to me as my sexual preference or the fact that my mouth tells me cilantro tastes like soap.

I'm having a hard time processing why your comment rubs me the wrong way but I guess it just boils down to feeling like you met me and said, "I personally bristle at the color of your eyes."
posted by komara at 12:24 PM on June 6, 2017 [53 favorites]


We so rarely hear from those who really choose to be childless. . .

I was going to say ... "except at Metafilter".
posted by ryanshepard at 12:29 PM on June 6, 2017 [11 favorites]


Who will care for childless people when they age?

If you take the time to invest in your community, especially its young people, you get a return on that investment. Biological kids in and of themselves don't guarantee any kind of safety net for either the child -or- the parent. I deal with this reality day-in and day-out as someone who has become an unofficial "Dad" (feeding, clothing, sheltering, helping with bills & life skills) to a lot of queer youth whose families have abandoned them.

A lot of us who are childless have created our own Found Families, and they are a tremendous source of ongoing support.
posted by Wossname at 12:30 PM on June 6, 2017 [43 favorites]


The author alludes to a big question at the end: Who will care for childless people when they age? Will they be left alone?

I cannot afford, in time or money, to take care of my parents. Depending on how the next 10-15 years go, somewhere between "some" and "98%" of you with children will not be able to depend on them to take care of you. Unless you have three, four, half a dozen children who can (and will!) work together on that, y'all are as fucked as I am. We're all badly in need of a Plan B on that one.

Luckily, if the next 10-15 years go that badly, most of us will die relatively young and fast from lack of medical care, so it won't be such a looming issue for those kids.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2017 [44 favorites]


Sometimes I forget how awesome my remaining family and the pseudo-in laws are. My SO and I have never had an interest in being parents, and aside from some early "are you going to have kids" questions in our late 20s, the topic never comes up. Everyone has kindly accepted that it just isn't something we want, so nobody brings it up. I can't say whether or not they are thinking about it, but it makes me happy that they aren't trying to convince us we should.

Funny thing, though, my sister maintained she didn't want kids until a few months ago, then all of a sudden was like "we're going to try." I don't talk to her very often, but as far as I know it still hasn't happened. I guess I should call her and find out what the situation is.
posted by wierdo at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


As an ex-child who vividly remembers the particular powerlessness of being unable to choose the people with whom I was forced to spend my days, and particularly the powerlessness to avoid the adults with whom fate, the school system, and my mother brought me into contact, let me say that anybody who thinks any adults should force themselves to interact with kids for the sake of community bonds is doing those kids no favors. Being left alone is the one privilege every child is forbidden, and it is the one kindness that childless adults do for children that no parents do. (Or can do, safely. see, I am fair.) But nobody who avoids kids socially is thereby harming kids.

on the cat note, I used to get so mad about people calling me my cat's mom and the vet referring to her by my last name (we're just roommates! and even if we were more to each other, she's a feminist, she'd never take my name if we got married! ) but as the years roll by I have gotten resigned to it and taken to calling her my baby, my little kitten (she is middle-aged) and so on.

cause she hates it

you can embarrass a cat just as well as you can a human child. if you're dedicated.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:33 PM on June 6, 2017 [63 favorites]


"on the cat note, I used to get so mad about people calling me my cat's mom and the vet referring to her by my last name (we're just roommates!)"

Man, me too - even the line about being roommates. The first time I got her back from the vet on an overnight stay and they had put a piece of tape on top of her carrier that read "[cat's name] [my last name]" I was like, "What? Wow, no. That's just wrong."

However, when I got a dog and the same thing happened I was like, "Eh, seems about right."
posted by komara at 12:37 PM on June 6, 2017 [7 favorites]


komara: "How and where I interact with kids (and the absolutely minimal frequency of that interaction) is my choice. Liking kids? Liking the idea of having kids? That's as much a choice to me as my sexual preference or the fact that my mouth tells me cilantro tastes like soap."

I guess when not a lot shows up on Metafilter to outrage you, you need to reach, huh?

No one ever said you had to "like the idea of having kids". What latkes was alluding to is: when you see a child out in the wild, I'm sure you grant them a greater latitude than you would an adult, right? You don't loudly reprimand them for bumping into you or whatever? That's the baseline. You might also help out tired parents or smile at kids that cross your path. These are all things that improve the world for small people who need all the help they can get. I'm sorry if you feel like that is a higher moral obligation than you signed up for, but maybe if that's the case you should go find yourself a Gulch?
posted by TypographicalError at 12:39 PM on June 6, 2017 [13 favorites]


What IS your cat's last name if it isn't the same as your last name? "TheCat?"
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:43 PM on June 6, 2017 [10 favorites]


My cat Oreo's last name was "Cookie."
posted by JanetLand at 12:44 PM on June 6, 2017 [13 favorites]


I liked this, as a childless man. Also, I saw this yesterday, which is kind of similar.
posted by Gorgik at 12:47 PM on June 6, 2017 [8 favorites]


It's not that any individual should be compelled to have children, it's that as society fractures into smaller and smaller units, we have lost an intergenerational community safety net of support. Having younger people in our lives protects us as older people, and having children is one especially likely way to ensure a caretaker when we are elderly, in a world where elderly people are neglected and abandoned.

I am on the fence about having kids, for many reasons the author and others have listed. I must admit I am highly skeptical of the "nuclear family" system (even as I prepare to get married in a few weeks). But I sure as shit wouldn't rely on any offspring to take care of me in my old age. And once I realized that there is no guarantee your children will take care of you, I felt more free to make a choice about having children, rather than be coerced.

American culture may idealize The Family, but it is also highly individualistic. There are benefits and drawbacks to this individualism. One drawback, we don't have that intergenerational support system that you describe. One benefit, we aren't expected to take care of people just because they raised us. Some people (*raises hand*) come from abusive families of origin. Trust me, the pressure to be a caregiver for your folks, even if they are horrible people, never goes away.

I agree that having an intergenerational support system, when it works, is ideal, but please let's not pretend it's a bulletproof solution. And it shouldn't be a substitute for larger institutional and social solutions to elder-care.
posted by shalom at 12:50 PM on June 6, 2017 [15 favorites]


TypographicalError: "What latkes was alluding to is"

I'll let latkes clarify what they were alluding to if they wish.

What I was responding to, specifically, was this:

"Kids are more a part of social gatherings, people, speaking very generally, may have more of a sense of obligation to be part of caring for children of friends and extended family members. I personally bristle at the idea that it's just cool to say, "I don't like kids" and choose to exclude children from your life totally."

Which doesn't sound exactly like what you're alluding to. It sounds like I'm being judged because I don't call up all my friends who have kids and volunteer to babysit. Or that I'm being judged for not doing more than acknowledging their presence on the rare occasion that I see them, instead of sitting down and playing with them or otherwise devoting my time to them. I don't do those things, and I'm not starting now.

Of course I don't reprimand some kid for bumping into me, and if a child at the next table over at the restaurant smiles at me, I won't glare back. But latkes is selling this It Takes a Village line, and I'm happy to help fund that village through my taxpayer dollars but not so much through my direct time and effort with other people's offspring.
posted by komara at 12:52 PM on June 6, 2017 [42 favorites]


How and where I interact with kids (and the absolutely minimal frequency of that interaction) is my choice. Liking kids? Liking the idea of having kids? That's as much a choice to me as my sexual preference or the fact that my mouth tells me cilantro tastes like soap.

I'd say that for example if you were to say, "I just don't like women", that presents a problem for society at large. Likewise, I think there is a social cost when individuals decide they just don't like children. That comes from a value I have that we all have some kind of obligation to care for our larger community, not just ourselves (or members of our immediate nuclear families). What "caring for our community" looks like can vary widely, but I think just writing off millions of people does present problems for the larger community.
posted by latkes at 12:56 PM on June 6, 2017 [19 favorites]


Latkes, it doesn't seem like you read the article because she addresses several of your points and specifically says that it isn't that she "doesn't like kids."
posted by agregoli at 1:02 PM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]


I guess when not a lot shows up on Metafilter to outrage you, you need to reach, huh?

should have used the hamburger tag or was this unintentionally ironic? halp
posted by some loser at 1:02 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]


I personally bristle at the idea that it's just cool to say, "I don't like kids" and choose to exclude children from your life totally. Obv, anyone can make that choice, but I think a healthy society requires that we do interact with, and even help protect our more vulnerable members, and our members of all ages. We're not just individuals. We are part of a community, whether we want to be or not.

When you're in the process of judging other people for their contributions to society, you should probably avoid displaying an embarrassing ignorance of the ways that such people have actually contributed to society. Have you literally never heard of the active orders of the Catholic Church? Is your mind simply unable to imagine the possibility that, say, a person who does NOT have dependents can afford to do a public service job at a lower salary because she doesn't have to worry about meeting their expenses?
posted by praemunire at 1:08 PM on June 6, 2017 [17 favorites]


I have a kid and two cats.
posted by boo_radley at 1:08 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


Interesting, and I wish we had a society where she wouldn't have to justify herself quite that much. As a mom, I enthusiastically agree with her view on the 'do I like kids' question. Of course, It depends on the kid! Kids are people, individuals, human beings, and both 'I luuurrrrve kids!' and 'I hate kids!' are dismissive of that fact.

The upthread comparison of 'it's like getting a random craigslist roommate!' seems misplaced to me. We develop strong attachment with kids (adopted or bio) and that kind of does a number on your brain that a roommate could never replicate. It's true that you can't guarantee a strong attachment (some people just never like their kids), but the vast majority do go through a big hormonal/psychological/even physiological change. (Doesn't mean I think everyone needs to go through this, I just found the Craigslist comparison misplaced, here.)
posted by The Toad at 1:09 PM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]


I personally bristle at the idea that it's just cool to say, "I don't like kids" and choose to exclude children from your life totally.

Can you expound on why you introduced the position of not liking kids at all? Because the article was about choosing not to have kids, which is a different thing entirely.

Me, I like kids fine. I just don't want to have any of my own. Just like I also like penguins, but choose not to try to have one as a pet.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:15 PM on June 6, 2017 [27 favorites]


People question women and not men about their choice to be childless because a part of them believes that women are after all not people but flesh vehicles for the desires of men, who are people.
posted by Automocar at 1:19 PM on June 6, 2017 [18 favorites]


I'd say that for example if you were to say, "I just don't like women", that presents a problem for society at large.

Do humans stop being women after 15-18 years? How perplexing.

Likewise, I think there is a social cost when individuals decide they just don't like children.

It's strange to me that you think it's something people "decide." Did you decide to actually like kids?

My husband and I don't have kids. I don't like babies at all and I really wish people would stop asking me to hold them or whatever. I am neutral on children as an aggregate, neither liking nor disliking and yet I am very happy that my life contains very, very few of them. I have no interest in interacting with children. I don't have much interest in interacting with too many adults either, though.

HOWEVER, I do fully support wonderful K-12 education for children and health care for children and pre- and post-natal care for mothers and parental leave and all sorts of things which benefit children. It's entirely possible to support children in one's community without wanting them in your life personally.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:34 PM on June 6, 2017 [68 favorites]


I absolutely, vehemently, not a doubt in my mind didn't want kids. It was one of the reasons my marriage broke up - most of the fights we had would eventually get to my ex-husband being infuriated with me for not wanting kids. And we got divorced and I got remarried and suddenly, out of nowhere at 36, wanted kids. Maybe the biological clock is real, and maybe it was just that I couldn't fathom raising kids in that marriage where so much wasn't working. I don't know. My husband and I have one kid, and then two miscarriages and 4 failed IVFs (which was all our insurance would cover) and dozens of other interventions later, we're still not giving up but I'm pretty much resigned that it doesn't matter how much I want another child, it's not in the cards for me.

And that pain is much, much worse than the irritation of conversations I also used to have with well-meaning people who assumed when I said I didn't want kids, that I didn't mean it or know my own mind. I really didn't want them. And then I really did. And I'm lucky - at least we have the one. But I ache for the options I might have had if things had been different when I was younger and more able biologically.

But while that doesn't negate the truth that I didn't want them before - or that that was a valid truth to be taken at face value - I do wish that childless by choice people who get told that they'll change their minds could take that statement with a little more charity, or at least less hostility. Not because there's any truth in it. But because the world is large and our options aren't infinite, and regret over the things we can't control is a motherfucker.
posted by Mchelly at 1:36 PM on June 6, 2017 [10 favorites]


I love kids. I just can't ever finish a whole one...
posted by Samizdata at 1:38 PM on June 6, 2017 [33 favorites]


"I don't like kids" and "I don't like women" are silly statements if they're understood at all literally because what, all of them? On what possible basis?

At the same time, they're slightly different statements, because the amount of care that the average adult woman requires on a day to day basis is really different from the amount required by the average kid. "I don't like kids" is a statement that rests on the idea that 'liking kids' in any active way requires 'liking' doing a lot of care work for them and 'liking' a great deal of emotional labor that would be actually pretty unhealthy if you did it for an adult. "I don't like the amount of material and emotional labor that is required to engage in more than a shallow way with children" might be a better way to put it.
posted by Frowner at 1:40 PM on June 6, 2017 [31 favorites]


I do wish that childless by choice people who get told that they'll change their minds could take that statement with a little more charity, or at least less hostility. Not because there's any truth in it. But because the world is large and our options aren't infinite, and regret over the things we can't control is a motherfucker.

I'm always a little mystified at the assumption that the regret only ever goes one way. There are plenty of people who regret having had kids—and that decision can be much harder to undo than the decision not to.
posted by enn at 1:42 PM on June 6, 2017 [59 favorites]


We don't have to discuss people not liking all kids because that wasn't in the article.

I do wish that childless by choice people who get told that they'll change their minds could take that statement with a little more charity, or at least less hostility.

And I'll keep wishing people would mind their own business and stop telling people what to think and where they'll end up in life. It's rude in every other arena and it's rude in this one, whether someone changes their mind and has kids or not.
posted by agregoli at 1:47 PM on June 6, 2017 [41 favorites]


Although now that I think about it, the blank "dislike" of the work of engaging with children isn't a good thing either. Consider that many adults need a lot of care. If you don't like care work, you might not say "I think I will become a professional carer", but you would be totally creeped out if someone said "I don't like the amount of care needed to interact with [people with various health concerns or disabilities]". That would be weird and creepy, and you would think "but people are more than just a vehicle for the care they require, they are individuals who have their own value just because they exist". You would also probably think, "but these needs exist, that's just the world, and not liking it is like 'not liking' needing to comb your hair or 'not liking' needing to sleep, and you need to make your peace with those things or you'll be a weird shell of a human".

I mean, isn't that how most of us who "don't like kids" really feel about it anyway? I'm not, like, volunteering to do a lot of stuff with kids, but once a kid is in my life, I care about them and will do even "boring" stuff with them because they're a person with legit needs and wishes.

What I "don't like" isn't kids, it's "having no say in how much kid-work I do".
posted by Frowner at 1:48 PM on June 6, 2017 [27 favorites]


As the male half of a child-free heterosexual couple it's been my privilege to dodge most of the bullshit that's always described in these articles/discussions. Except for the time I booked a vasectomy consultation with a urologist when I was 27. That fucker wasted half of a personal day off (and my copay, and my insurance company's money) just to tell me in person that he wasn't going to give me a vasectomy because what if I change my mind later, what if I get remarried in 10 years, all the usual, endless what-ifs. (Does anyone ever ask prospective 25 year old parents "What if you have a baby and decide you don't want to raise it for the next 18 years? What if your kid turns out to be a sociopath? What if you and your partner turn out to be terrible parents? What if you die in a fiery crash and your child is orphaned? WHAT THEN? WHAT IF???")
I personally bristle at the idea that it's just cool to say, "I don't like kids" and choose to exclude children from your life totally.
...
I'd say that for example if you were to say, "I just don't like women", that presents a problem for society at large. Likewise, I think there is a social cost when individuals decide they just don't like children.
I absolutely agree that societies are healthier when people interact outside of their immediate spheres and across generations, but I have to throw a yellow flag at "when individuals decide they just don't like children." My wife and I didn't decide that we don't like/want children any more than people decide that they're homosexual or transgender.

Not liking kids doesn't mean that we take a default mean/spiteful stance on them (or their parents.) It just means we're not into them in the way that some people just aren't into dogs/cats/sports/TV/[insert-broad-cultural-phenomenon-here]. I love my young nieces and nephews unconditionally... but at their current very young ages I can't honestly say that I like visiting and playing with them much more than a couple of hours at a time because it is utterly exhausting and the responsibility, even when their parents are around, is frankly terrifying. An older niece came to stay with us on her own for a week and it felt like it nearly killed us. As someone who can barely keep his own shit together most of the time, I am in awe of the amount of work that good parents do, and how much they sacrifice to do it. We did choose not to have kids, but we didn't choose to not want them.

(On preview: Everything that Frowner said. "Liking kids" covers a lot of ground. I like smart, funny, interesting kids but the thought of being legally and financially responsible for raising an infant into an emotionally healthy young adult over the course of 18 years gives me the screaming fantods.)
posted by Funeral march of an old jawbone at 1:50 PM on June 6, 2017 [21 favorites]


I mean, isn't that how most of us who "don't like kids" really feel about it anyway? I'm not, like, volunteering to do a lot of stuff with kids, but once a kid is in my life, I care about them and will do even "boring" stuff with them because they're a person with legit needs and wishes.

This is not always true. Some people do the kid-work because they're legally obligated not to leave them at the bottom of a lake.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:56 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]


Thanks Squeak Attack, that's pretty much what I was going to write. I'm nice to kids, I vote for every tax I can that supports kids, I get really angry about the school and welfare system letting them down, I just don't care to be around them. I have never been around a kid that I wouldn't rather not have been, but mostly I'm ambivalent. But I would have no problem watching a kid if I was needed to.

I do wish that childless by choice people who get told that they'll change their minds could take that statement with a little more charity, or at least less hostility.

I'm not hostile, it's not something that has actually made me angry, it's just tiresome. Like the decades of being told I like my coffee or my steak the wrong way, and someday I will see the light. OK, thanks for your opinion.

I'm always a little mystified at the assumption that the regret only ever goes one way.

The child question seems like one of those things that's so hard wired into people that many simply cannot see or believe the others point of view. Like how really competitive people just can't believe in their hearts that you are not competing with them.
posted by bongo_x at 2:00 PM on June 6, 2017 [22 favorites]


See also:
"bisexuality is just a phase"
"when are you two getting married"
"you should buy a house instead of renting"
"your chronic illness can be cured with these home remedies"
"your style of parenting is wrong"

And on and on.

These conversations are sanctimonious, predictable, and boring. From now on we shall explain nothing, inquire about nothing, and judge nothing. We will limit ourselves to observations about the weather. The weather is likely to eliminate the consequences of our actions pretty soon, anyhow.
posted by poe at 2:14 PM on June 6, 2017 [29 favorites]


> boy this tests my sympathy. I cannot be the only unchilded woman in the world who actually doesn't at all mind people thinking I hate babies as long as they know I like teenagers.

I am frustrated by the trope that teenagers are so horrible. When roving in packs, they're pretty annoying, sure. Who isn't? Their tendency to speak only in grunts and then break their silence to tell long, meandering stories about incomprehensible micro-dramas occurring in the hallway outside of homeroom is not really that different from adult conversation, folks. Boring if it's not your world.

Mostly, I think that adults don't like teenagers because they have great BS detectors and will CALL YOU OUT when you are telling polite white lies or behaving hypocritically.
posted by desuetude at 2:34 PM on June 6, 2017 [20 favorites]


It's been very interesting navigating the different family inquiries into my childless by choicehood. My parents were unable to have children for ten years before they had me. I have three younger brothers. I made it known in high school that I did not want children. My mom delicately broached the subject every few years asking if I was sure. I always was sure and still am in my early fifties. Thankfully, my mom was not pushy or intrusive. I think she was mainly interested in understanding my complete opposite feeling from her very deep desire to have children and struggling for years to achieve it. We had some good discussions due to her questioning. I think it helped us understand each other a lot better.

One of my sisters-in-law was not so delicate. Three months after our wedding, she asked my husband at the family dinner table when he was going to start a family with her sister-in-law. This was after years of rudely pestering both of us about getting married. My husband responded to her question, "It is none of your f^*#ing business if we have children! For the record, we do not want them. Both of us! We do not want children!" The conversation took a while to pick up again. The sister-in-law never asked that rude question again.
posted by narancia at 2:35 PM on June 6, 2017 [12 favorites]


From now on we shall explain nothing, inquire about nothing, and judge nothing.

Well, there goes Metafilter. What will I do with all my new-found time?
posted by she's not there at 2:37 PM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]


What will I do with all my new-found time?

He said no inquiries!
posted by bongo_x at 2:40 PM on June 6, 2017 [36 favorites]


I do wish that childless by choice people who get told that they'll change their minds could take that statement with a little more charity, or at least less hostility.

I have gotten this a lot, as an AFAB person who does not want children. Here are some of the things I've wanted to say and couldn't say.

"Oh, you never know!" Yeah, lady, I can know. I'm a lesbian, I have no qualms about abortion, and the idea of being pregnant induces intense body dysphoria. (I didn't say this because I was working in a crappy temp job and didn't know if outing myself would mean unemployment.)

"You'll change your mind!" No, you'll change your mind and want your free time back.

"What if your partner wants one?" She doesn't. She's also sterile.

"Your biological clock will go off!" My biological clock gave me rheumatoid arthritis. The medication is contraindicated for pregnancy, to say nothing of the painkillers.

"You have so much to offer!" The family history of depression, alcoholism, and dyslexia? My own knowledge of how to raise children gleaned from growing up in an alcoholic family? That I need to sleep 10-12 hours a night to control my rheumatoid arthritis and that I'm often in too much pain to make dinner? My six figures of student debt?

"Being a mom has made me a better person, it's just so amazing, I want everyone to experience it!" Yeah, dropping out of the workforce to replicate your own genome is so charitable. I guess my career working with disabled veterans is worthless.

"Who's going to look after you when you get old?" The kind of chronic illness I have means I'm probably not getting old, thanks.

If I wanted children, my situation would be tragic and people getting on my case about it would be mean, but somehow because I'm a woman who has chosen not to have children I'm just supposed to smile at people who dismiss everything I've accomplished and everything I have to deal with to get through my life and my job as insignificant because I don't have children. Yeah, no.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:02 PM on June 6, 2017 [49 favorites]


Who will care for childless people when they age?

My taxes are supposed to. Social security is supposed to. Insurance is supposed to. Human beings should not be defacto unpaid caregivers. If YOU decide you want to raise kids, great.That's your decision. It should not come with the string attached that said kids need to take care of you in your twilight years. They didn't agree to that in the womb and I think it's kind of gross that people have kids for this express reason.
I'm sure a bunch of people who have done exactly this will come out to tell me how wrong I am. I don't care. It's a gross practice.
posted by greermahoney at 3:05 PM on June 6, 2017 [66 favorites]


I do wish that childless by choice people who get told that they'll change their minds could take that statement with a little more charity, or at least less hostility.

Why should I be make the effort to be polite or charitable to somebody who is going out of their way to tell me how I should live my life? No. "You'll change your mind and want children" is as inappropriate as "you should attend my church" or "your sexuality is wrong and you should be like me".
posted by Lexica at 3:08 PM on June 6, 2017 [46 favorites]


I am absolutely gobsmacked right now. I thought for sure, here on the blue, that the comments on this article were going to be "Preach, sister." I really didn't envision that it would be filled with people needing to defend their childless choices yet again.

Seriously. Stop telling people to have kids. Stop asking them when they're having them. Stop telling them they'll change their minds. Stop defending people who do this. This is freaking '70's politics in 2017. If you're doing any of those things, you're in the wrong. Full stop.
posted by greermahoney at 3:13 PM on June 6, 2017 [51 favorites]


childless by choice people who get told that they'll change their minds could take that statement with a little more charity, or at least less hostility. Not because there's any truth in it. But because the world is large and our options aren't infinite, and regret over the things we can't control is a motherfucker

What does your regret or not regret have to do with how incredibly presumptuous it is to tell someone they don't know their own minds on a very personal and important subject? That in itself is a hostile act. If you shove someone, you get shoved back.

If I were to change my mind tomorrow and happily have eight kids, that would do nothing to diminish the incredible rudeness of someone thinking they know my own mind and choices better than I do myself.
posted by praemunire at 3:14 PM on June 6, 2017 [23 favorites]


"your sexuality is wrong and you should be like me"

People telling me I'm going to change my mind and have kids ARE telling me that my sexuality is wrong and I should be like them.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:16 PM on June 6, 2017 [11 favorites]



What IS your cat's last name if it isn't the same as your last name? "TheCat?"

Just plain Cat since Pussy is her first name.
posted by notreally at 3:28 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


One person's experience: I do recall sensing a change in U.S. culture, when people with children became valorized, and a negative sense developed regarding people who did not have children (whether by choice or not)--hey, you can always adopt!

It was during Reagan's first term, so you could say the early 1980s was when the change in attitude regarding kids/no kids began to pervade culture, advertising, behavior, you name it. Make of it what you will.
posted by datawrangler at 3:56 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


Another childless by choice woman here, saying that it is entirely possible to support children and also choose not to be around them over much.

In addition to supporting kid-causes monetarily, my dog and I do reading therapy with kids, which we both (the dog and I) enjoy a lot. But do I want to hang out with kids all day, or babysit other people's kids out of some societal obligation? Hell no!

Babies on the other hand, are extremely creepy...
posted by WalkerWestridge at 3:58 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]


Who will care for childless people when they age?

I don't know about you, but if I'm to the point where I can't care for myself anymore, then I'll be taking myself out back and putting myself down, thank you very much.
posted by elsietheeel at 3:59 PM on June 6, 2017 [11 favorites]


Just plain Cat since Pussy is her first name.

Are you James Bond?
posted by bongo_x at 4:05 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]


I question that there is such a thing as "childless by choice". What choice? Seems to me that someone either wants to have kids, or they don't. (And on that note, I'll leave this right here.)
posted by jazzbaby at 4:12 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


Of course there is childless by choice. What else would you call permanent birth control options?
posted by agregoli at 4:14 PM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]


I've never understood why anyone cares whether you choose to have children or not. Sort of like I've never understood why a hetero married couple gives a crap about gay marriage. People have their reasons for things, and who am I to tell them if they're right or wrong? It's really none of my business.

On the other hand, the opening of Idiocracy came to mind pretty early on in this essay...
posted by Chuffy at 4:14 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]


Chiming in rather late, but I wanted to put my name on the list of dudes who get shit for saying they don't want kids every time it comes up. Definitely not as intense as women, but it does happen.
posted by youthenrage at 4:14 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]


I do wish that childless by choice people who get told that they'll change their minds could take that statement with a little more charity, or at least less hostility.

No.

I have never wanted kids. My one accidental pregnancy would have been an abortion if it hadn't ended up a miscarriage.

I am asked WEEKLY at church, by a fellow usher, why don't we have kids? Why don't we adopt? Unremittingly. And it takes all of my good nature to not kick dude in the shins and tell him to knock it the fuck off.

I *love* kids. I adore my nieces and flirt with any baby I can and lob my friends' children and absolutely positive do NOT want any of my own.

The word for what you are talking about is microagression, and I shouldn't HAVE to smile and be nice when i am asked the same question over and over by individuals and society as a whole.

No.
posted by bibliogrrl at 4:20 PM on June 6, 2017 [30 favorites]


I am childless by choice. My husband and I agreed that neither of us wants children, and we've taken the necessary precautions to ensure that I won't get pregnant.

Friends of mine are childless but not by choice. They want very much to have a child but are unable to.

This seems fairly straightforward.
posted by Lexica at 4:21 PM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]


Read jazzbaby's link -- it posits that to be able to make a choice you must first have desirable options.... if there's never a desire to have children then is it really a choice?
posted by elsietheeel at 4:21 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]


And another thing:

A LOT of people regret having kids. You can't "un-have" them, either. Once you've made that decision, and followed through on it, you're committed to it. For life. For a LOT of people, that was a very bad choice. You don't get asked to justify having kids in random conversations, do you? I've never walked into a corner store and been asked if I regret having kids, or been told that I may regret it someday. People are weird.

Do I love my kids? Yes. Do I ever wonder what life would be like if I didn't commit? Yes. Too late, and, once again, who cares? I respect people who choose not to have children. I respect anyone who doesn't bow to pressure to do something. Imagine how many people have children that never wanted to, and then imagine how those kids turned out...

Ugh.
posted by Chuffy at 4:25 PM on June 6, 2017 [14 favorites]


Yes. It is often a choice because you can be pregnant without wanting to be.
posted by agregoli at 4:32 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]



What IS your cat's last name if it isn't the same as your last name?


Twibbit.

but she is a first names all around kind of cat. very informal.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:35 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


Read jazzbaby's link

Already did, years ago when it came out. But thanks for the condescension.

if there's never a desire to have children then is it really a choice?

Um... yes? I've been sexually active for 25+ years now. If reliable birth control weren't available, I would almost certainly have gotten pregnant by now. I choose to use birth control so I don't become pregnant. I am and remain childless by choice.

It could have gone the other way. When we got married, both my husband and I thought we wanted/assumed we would have children. Thank goodness we live in a world with reliable contraception so we didn't bring a child into this world before realizing that we're not cut out to care for a small human being.
posted by Lexica at 4:35 PM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]


One person's experience: I do recall sensing a change in U.S. culture, when people with children became valorized, and a negative sense developed regarding people who did not have children

The Zero Population Growth (ZPG) movement got a lot of traction in the US in the 1970's. Not sure why people stopped talking about it; maybe the rise of the religious right?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:37 PM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]


Another dude chiming in who is in a relationship with a partner where neither one of us want children.
I actually started a private Facebook group for my friends who are also CBC (Childless By Choice) to vent. The pressure, especially on women in my circle of CBC friends, to justify the decision to not have children is ridiculous.
posted by KingEdRa at 4:37 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]


Mostly, I think that adults don't like teenagers because ...

.. because they're surly idiots who's brains are not yet formed. They believe they are adults, and yet they consistently make the stupidest, most reckless, short-term-goal oriented decisions possible without considering that people older than them have lived through this stupid phase of their lives and maybe know a thing or two. They get better when they're 25 to 30, usually, but for 15-25, I'd much prefer them to be someone else's problem entirely.

But then, I deeply regret being a parent, so whatever. I love my wife more than anything, but the kids are mostly her weird pets that I can't wait for them to age out and move away.

Also, I really want to know why one cannot purchase an insurance rider on permanent birth control methods. Vasectomies can grow back. Implants can fail. It costs $250,000 to raise a child to age 18 and boot them from the home; that should be covered by insurance.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 4:38 PM on June 6, 2017 [17 favorites]


It has also been my experience that, generally speaking, parents do not seem to want childless adults interacting with their children. Even when they're friends of the family. So whether or not the childless adult likes children is pretty much a moot issue.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:41 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]


I do wish that childless by choice people who get told that they'll change their minds could take that statement with a little more charity, or at least less hostility.

You could eliminate uncharitable and hostile responses by not telling people this in the first place.

Seriously, what could it possibly accomplish? What other reason is there to tell someone who doesn't want kids "Oh you'll change your mind one day" other than to try to make them feel bad or to make yourself feel superior because you know better than them? Actual, non-rhetorical question. Because if you think you're doing them a favor by alerting them to the possibility that their mind might change, trust me, they'll figure that out when it happens, and they don't need the early heads-up.

If you just want to make inconsequential conversation, there's always the weather.
posted by rhiannonstone at 4:41 PM on June 6, 2017 [22 favorites]



.. because they're surly idiots who's brains are not yet formed.

regarding goals, decision-making, respect for those who think they know better than me, and respect for those who are older and more powerful merely because they are older and more powerful, I was exactly the same when I was a teenager as I am now.

but then, I am only reiterating what you just said.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:42 PM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]


Seriously, what could it possibly accomplish? What other reason is there to tell someone who doesn't want kids "Oh you'll change your mind one day"

Because they might save someone from making a terrible mistake? Someone like me. Someone did, and I am forever grateful for it.

Once upon a time, I wanted the depo-provera shot, and I didn't want to wait for the necessary pregnancy test for it. The doctor told me it was necessary because if he went ahead without it, it would affect the child if I was, in fact, pregnant. I was angry. I was furious. I remember screaming at him, why wouldn't he just GIVE it to me, it was my body, if I was pregnant I would just get an abortion anyway because I didn't want to have a baby and I definitely didn't want the one I would have if I was pregnant.

He refused. I took the pregnancy test. Naturally, because that's how my life worked back then, I found out shortly afterwards I was pregnant.

And from the moment I knew, there was no question of an abortion. I loved my daughter fiercely, intensely, before I knew anything about her. She has been hard and she has been difficult and I have had to raise her for years as a single mother. But I love her more than anything in this life or the next and the thought that if I had somehow browbeat the doctor into just giving me the shot I could have hurt her fills me with actual nausea.

Are there people who are smug assholes about "someday you'll change your mind?" Undoubtedly. People are smug assholes sometimes. But sometimes, these things are said from a place of love, and I don't think it's necessary or useful to assume actual malice on the part of people who care.
posted by corb at 4:50 PM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]


So, honest question (not snarking)...

I have been under the impression that while men sometimes do have to put up with this nonsense, it's typically from family/partners. I can say for sure (from my personal experience and that of my friends) that co-workers, acquaintances, and even fucking strangers bombard women with their opinions on having kids. Even worse, they don't just want to state their opinions and be done with it; they want to debate you over it, and the only way to "win" is just not engage in the first place.

Do men get this treatment from people they have no personal relationship with?
posted by ktkt at 4:51 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


I can verify that owning a penis does not provide a shield against this, although I know I catch less crap than the ladies do. A lot of it has to do with the culture; living in the south and in the very Catholic New Orleans area, and especially working for Catholics, I got a particularly heavy dose of it.

Although the most startling exchange I've ever had was the reaction of a random older lady I encountered working for one of my firm's customers. When she randomly asked if I had kids I said "no," and she said "Oh I'm so sorry." To which I said, "Don't be sorry, it's a choice my wife and I agreed on when we met thirty years ago." To which her eyes popped and her mouth made a wide O of horror and she exclaimed, "But don't you want to leave a legacy?"

I resisted the urge to explain that the industrial control system I'd designed for her boss, and the thousands of others like it through the years, are a perfectly adequate legacy thank you very much.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:53 PM on June 6, 2017 [11 favorites]


corb, I'm sorry you had that frustrating experience, and I'm really happy it worked out well for you. But a doctor making you go through the required procedure to get a pregnancy test before getting a shot that could have caused issues for pregnancy is not the same thing as a friend, family member, stranger, or doctor telling someone apropos of nothing else that they'll change their minds about having children one day. I'm sure I'd have raged and pushed back in that situation, too, and similarly been grateful for the doctor's intervention. But I can't imagine I will ever be grateful to the family members, coworkers, and in-laws who have harangued me about how selfish I am to not want children, even if I wake up tomorrow and suddenly want them more than anything. Nothing they said would have contributed to my change of heart. I agree that it's not necessary or useful to assume malice. But the majority of the time these comments aren't necessary or useful, and I struggle to understand where they're coming from.
posted by rhiannonstone at 4:55 PM on June 6, 2017 [41 favorites]


Not having kids can't be a terrible mistake, but having kids can be.

It is not kind, or loving, or nice in any way, to tell people they don't know their own minds. No on cares how you feel about their choices. Keep it. To Yourself.
posted by agregoli at 4:58 PM on June 6, 2017 [10 favorites]


A doctor insisting on performing a pregnancy test before administering a medication or treatment that might harm a fetus is nothing at all like family, friends, and neighbors saying "you're not having kids? why not?" and "oh, you'll change your mind" and "don't you want to leave a legacy?" and suggesting they're similar is a ludicrous false equivalence.
posted by Lexica at 4:59 PM on June 6, 2017 [30 favorites]


I feel like clarifying what I mean when if I say something like, "I don't like children." It doesn't mean I hate kids! It doesn't mean I'm opposed to kids! It doesn't mean I think other people shouldn't have kids, and as I said above, it doesn't mean I don't support wonderful public and community resources for other peoples' kids.

For me, it speaks much more to a complete absence in me of the feelings American society expects a woman to have about children. I'm expected to think babies are wonderful and cute and want one. I don't and never have. I'm expected to have a feeling that is identified as biological clock. I did not ever experience this feeling. I'm expected in many circles to think that being a mother is the center of a woman's life and her highest achievement. I'm expected to be charmed by coworkers' children and want to hear lots of stories about toilet training and soccer practice. I'm not charmed by their children and I am bored by their stories.

When faced with so many social messages that, as a woman, I must feel some innate love, and adoration, and desire for children, I find myself so incredibly lacking in any of those feelings, I can only summarize my complete outsider status as "I [guess] don't like children [because I obviously don't feel about them the way I'm supposed to.]"

I'm sorry [not sorry] if that's off-putting but I also think women who have more "normal" feelings about children cannot understand what it's like to be such an outsider in this way. I'm almost 50 and mostly completely over it but some comments in this thread have really got me feeling like a total freak again. It's been something that has somewhat alienated me from my identity as a woman for most of my life, and even now sets me apart from my coworkers and friends, most of whom have kids and apparently had all these normal desires that I can't comprehend.
posted by Squeak Attack at 5:02 PM on June 6, 2017 [38 favorites]


I guess my sincere question would be - if the idea of a woman not wanting to have a baby didn't carry with it this implied Legacy Of Shame - which really, really sucks, and we shouldn't be putting that on women, no doubt - but would it really be upsetting if friends asked about it, just like they ask about and talk about any other life decision?

Because there's a lot of things that my friends regularly check in with me about how I feel about, and whether I think I'll change my mind, and what that would mean, and those are just kind of the conversations of friendship, because my friends aren't judgey assholes.

So I guess - is the problem the question itself, or people being judgey assholes?
posted by corb at 5:02 PM on June 6, 2017


Corb - Both. Because when you get asked the same thing over and over and over again it gets old, and it gets exhausting, whether people are judging you or not.
posted by bibliogrrl at 5:05 PM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]



I guess my sincere question would be - if the idea of a woman not wanting to have a baby didn't carry with it this implied Legacy Of Shame - which really, really sucks, and we shouldn't be putting that on women, no doubt - but would it really be upsetting if friends asked about it, just like they ask about and talk about any other life decision?


This is one of those "if the situation were completely different in every way, would it be the same?" questions that completely baffle me.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:05 PM on June 6, 2017 [37 favorites]


But there's a difference between a sincere conversation between friends if that's the kind of relationship you have, and yeah, people being judgey assholes who need to mind their own damn business, especially if the question is being asked again and again and again and again and AGAIN.

Or it's a stranger who has no idea who you are or what your life is like who smirks at you and says "Oh you'll change your mind!"

Fuck you, no I won't.
posted by elsietheeel at 5:06 PM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]


but would it really be upsetting if friends asked about it, just like they ask about and talk about any other life decision?

I don't know, is it upsetting when friends ask if it's too late to get an abortion when you tell them you're pregnant? is it upsetting if when you say you're planning on a family of four if circumstances work out just right, friends ask if you've thought about getting a dog instead, because nobody ever regrets getting a dog -- nobody nice and maternal, anyhow?

(neither would be upsetting to me, but I have to assume for most people the answer would be a yes. and I never do say such things.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:07 PM on June 6, 2017 [21 favorites]


corb, people are definitely judgey assholes about this, and what's most infuriating is that they don't understand how judgey and assholish they are being.

It is not OK to presume you know someone else's mind better than they do. Your doctor didn't put you through the pregnancy test because he thought you'd change your mind, he did it because it was a horrible liability situation for him if you were pregnant and your fetus was harmed by his prescription. He had a good reason and no choice in the matter.

But when the same person asks you every single week when you're going to get married because you need to get started on the kids project, after you've told them every single week that you have no plans to reproduce, the problem is no longer the question. It's a form of harassment, and a fairly universal one.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:08 PM on June 6, 2017 [20 favorites]


Do men get this treatment from people they have no personal relationship with?

Fuck no . . . . except in the context of discussing the length and seriousness of my relationship with a woman. And even then it's generally assumed that the woman will either "set me straight" or change her mind or her bio-clock will go nuts or (horrifyingly) she will essentially unilaterally decide when (not if) we have kids because of course I'm your basic dumb dude and women are really the ones in charge of kids.

IOW, even when I get hassled about being childless, the whole thing is incredibly gender-essentialist, and all the real responsibility rests on the woman.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:20 PM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]


Honestly, I'm pretty lucky in this regard. My mom is indifferent when it comes to kids. She had me because my dad wanted kids. She ended up winning the genetic lottery with a predisposition to endometriosis and early miscarriage and my parents got divorced before they could have any more kids. My dad died in 2001 -- the last time we spoke he asked when I was going to give him grandkids. My mom has NEVER pestered me for grandkids and 5 years ago she was nice enough to marry a guy with 4 kids, 3 stepkids, and 2 grandkids (so far, his three youngest kids are all under 22) so now that I'm 40 and single, nobody is bothering me about kids. (PLEASE NOTE I LOVE MY MOTHER DEARLY.) Not even my 94 year old grandma -- my 7 cousins have the great-grandkid situation under control.

But when I was in my teens I didn't want kids. Oh, you'll change your mind!

When I was in my 20s I didn't want kids. Oh, you'll change your mind!

When I was in my 30s when people asked I automatically replied no, I don't have kids, I don't want any, and no, I'm not going to change my mind.

It's just rude to assume that someone doesn't know their own mind. Yeah, a lot of people out there have changed their minds. Yeah, it can be different when it's your own kid. Yeah, I love my cousins' kids a whole hell of a lot more than anyone else's kids.

But in general, I think kids kinda suck (although please take my tax money to feed, clothe, educate, and care for them!), especially en masse... although I do like babies, as long as they're not screaming. But not enough to have one around all the time. I can't even take care of a dog for more than a few weeks.

I'm 40. I know my limitations. I know what I like. Two cats, please and thank you.
posted by elsietheeel at 5:23 PM on June 6, 2017 [8 favorites]


all the real responsibility rests on the woman

In everything, everywhere, forever and ever, amen.
posted by elsietheeel at 5:24 PM on June 6, 2017 [7 favorites]


After so many years of this kind of thing from people, I think a good part of the problem is just that most people regret having children themselves. Not that they don't love their children, they just regret becoming parents, and seeing other people make a different choice challenges the worldview that helps them quash that feeling.

Does anyone really care if we (the childless) have children or not? Really? I don't think they care at all, but they certainly don't want to be forced to think about the fact that the life they're living wasn't inevitable from the start. I think the judgey, presumptuous commentary is bound up in terrifying, soul-destroying and unaddressed regret. Because there we are, casually living our lives exactly the way we want to, and we are a sudden and frightening reminder that lives can be lived differently, and perhaps they should have stopped to think about what they really wanted most before setting out on an irreversible path. I think they're jealous.

I'm pretty sure this is true because the commentary is so trite and offensive, it's hard to imagine someone would come up with it unless they are caught up in an unexamined regret and jealousy spiral of their own and are self-soothing. For instance:

"You'll change your mind." When someone says this, you're like, jesus lady, you don't even know me, we are literal strangers, how can you say that? My guess is that she wants to assert, to herself, not to me, that she had no choice, because that rhetoric is critical to her accepting the less pleasant parts of her life. This drive to have babies is pre-programmed in every single human being, we don't have choices, we just have to do this thing, everybody does, it's just life. The fact that you're asserting that you can choose otherwise flies in the face of that and rattles the foundations of a very shaky tower of logic. People who say this need to tell you you'll change your mind or risk having to reassess their own life choices and confront their own regrets.

And then there's "you'll regret it": you know ye olde saw about how pointing a finger means three are pointing back at you? I'm pretty sure this comment only reveals regret that the commenter cannot face. They regret their choices sometimes, and it's important to them to believe that you won't avoid that kind of regret by not having children. You'll regret your choice even more in the end, they want to believe. There will be a downside. I think this is the fidget spinner of the parent who sometimes deeply regrets becoming a parent.

I'm pretty sure most parents regret becoming parents at least some of the time.
posted by Hildegarde at 5:25 PM on June 6, 2017 [40 favorites]


The people who've taken it upon themselves to give me unsolicited advice about having children have not been my doctor, close friends, or family members, they've been… some random woman sitting next to me at the sushi bar. A co-worker I'd never spoken to before (and didn't after). That kind of person. Do, please, explain how they were reaching out from affection, empathy, and deep familiarity with me, my hopes, my dreams, my limits, etc.

Or maybe they were just being intrusive and presumptuous to a stranger they didn't actually know anything about. I know which I think is true.

if the idea of a woman not wanting to have a baby didn't carry with it this implied Legacy Of Shame - which really, really sucks, and we shouldn't be putting that on women, no doubt - but would it really be upsetting if friends asked about it, just like they ask about and talk about any other life decision?

It's none of my friends' business how I style my hair, or what I eat, or what kind of bike I ride, or anything else, and I'd be annoyed if they were pushy enough to try to tell me I needed to change something like that. Whether I have kids falls firmly under NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.
posted by Lexica at 5:26 PM on June 6, 2017 [13 favorites]


Do men get this treatment from people they have no personal relationship with?

Yes, but I think it varies a lot with your surroundings. I don't think my wife got any more harassment than me, and at a certain age people stop asking women. But what she got a lot of was the assumption that she was interested in kids, or the social obligation of it anyway.

We'd visit friends and the woman(s) would say "come on lets take the kids shopping/to the park/etc." or "here, hold the baby". I did not get this treatment. My wife has far less interest in kids than I do. There are some great pictures of her holding babies like they're aliens.

Sometimes we'd have to just shut it down, but most of the time she'd try to be a good sport about it. Thankfully most of our friends kids are grown now.

So I guess - is the problem the question itself, or people being judgey assholes?


It seems to me sort of like asking someone about their religion. Weird, but whatever. But like that, anything other than a respectful curiosity about your opinion is just being an asshole. Proselytizing crosses that line.
posted by bongo_x at 5:38 PM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]


This is so much of a thing, there's a greeting card for it.

Okay to be fair it's Emily McDowell, not Hallmark, but STILL.
posted by elsietheeel at 5:38 PM on June 6, 2017


Happily childless. Kids are alright, often hilarious and sometimes complete and total bastards. Some of them I totally love, even though they're total bastards. Which basically sums up my feelings about humanity in general so . .

Now, I feel the same way about babies that I do about people's dogs. Like, a lot of them (more than most people admit) are either uncomfortable affectionate or kind of squirrely. You can't really have a a conversation with them, though people pretend like they are. And lots of people stand around talking about how adorable it is, when you know, like, know that a lot of humans are straight up fugly stick city until they become toddlers (at which point most humans are actually pretty fucking cute). So for the first year +s you're dealing with a blobby food motivated weirdo that drools on things and puts all kind of crap that could kill it in its mouth that takes much longer to housebreak than a puppy. Fortunately though, many babies grow up and develop interesting personalities and charming-until-they're-adults eccentric behaviors and or personality tics. So when I'm called upon to compliment some friend's mildly disappointing baby I can be like, "Wow, look at that. You sure had a baby. What a baby!" or whatever and find it personally hilarious when I positively compare its weirdo looks to their mildly disappointing husband who probably won't grow out of it being a gross, disappointing jerk who refers to his wife/my friend as "little Mama" and quotes Ayn Rand or whatever.
posted by thivaia at 5:43 PM on June 6, 2017 [16 favorites]


So when I'm called upon to compliment some friend's mildly disappointing baby I can be like, "Wow, look at that. You sure had a baby. What a baby!" or whatever and find it personally hilarious when I positively compare its weirdo looks to their mildly disappointing husband who probably won't grow out of it being a gross, disappointing jerk who refers to his wife/my friend as "little Mama" and quotes Ayn Rand or whatever.

I'm sorry, but I just want to favorite this like 20 times. ++++++++++++++++++++
posted by elsietheeel at 5:48 PM on June 6, 2017 [7 favorites]


I've been pondering all afternoon the juxtoposition of:
ITS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.
LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT IT.

This is always an interesting subject here, its treatment.

I think because the latter is complicated and fraught the former is true. If it were only complicated we could start a small-publishing business and provide booklets. WHY KEVIN AND STACEY WON'T BE HAVING CHILDREN.

I mean, I guess we still can in a jokey way: "NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS" ‡

Some people ask because they mean well and like to think of themselves in your future. And also babies.

Because babies are the most terrible, terrible drug. Like any junkie I expect other than seeing you high the same way and convenient they honestly don't give a crap how they get their fix.

‡ (If I catch you with this on &sy without me, I'm gonna have to burn you. Memail me your letterpress details.)
posted by Ogre Lawless at 6:22 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]


Childless by choice and thrilled to be so over here. And unless I'm the one to initiate the "I'm not so sure about this decision" or "I'm worried I might change my mind later" conversation, I don't think it's appropriate for my friends to start down that path with me in childbearing, buying a house, deciding to live with my partner without getting married, or pretty much any other life choice, whether they're being judge-y or not.

Two major exceptions: If they were to believe I were in danger of major, imminent harm, sure, question me. Or if they're trying to figure their own shit out and asking me about my decision helps them make their own? Yes, absolutely, ask me all you want, I'm an open book if I can help you in some way. Otherwise, my friendships don't involve questioning or regularly re-discussing my firmly held life decisions about kids or anything else.

(Tweets and teens are great, when I can return them to their parents. Babies and younger children are a confusing and often awkward or unpleasant mystery to me. I make my contributions to society in other ways than by cultivating relationships with young kids, and I fully expect to hire nursing care when I need it, and am saving accordingly. Even if I had kids, I would not think it right to expect them to be my caregivers in my old age. I know far more people who are estranged from their parents than I do those who are willing and able to be caregivers for them.)
posted by Stacey at 6:23 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]


My favorite thing to say when people offer me the chance to hold their babies is "No thanks, I'm a vegetarian."
posted by bile and syntax at 6:24 PM on June 6, 2017 [24 favorites]


The "you'll change your mind" bit always reminds me of an exchange from Austen's Persuasion in terms of its intractability:

(The characters are discussing allowing women aboard ships.)

"Ah! my dear," said the Admiral, "when he had got a wife, he will sing a different tune. When he is married, if we have the good luck to live to another war, we shall see him do as you and I, and a great many others, have done. We shall have him very thankful to anybody that will bring him his wife."

"Ay, that we shall."

"Now I have done," cried Captain Wentworth. "When once married people begin to attack me with,--'Oh! you will think very differently, when you are married.' I can only say, `No, I shall not;' and then they say again, 'Yes, you will,' and there is an end of it."


"You'll change your mind" is a line to which there is no real response.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 6:31 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]


I am non-neurotypical (which seems, informally, to be genetic) and have a lot of joint problems (which, although not formally genetically traced, seems most certainly inherited), so, yeah, I'll get right on that kid thing!

(Which is probably a contributing factor to why I am no longer married.)
posted by Samizdata at 6:39 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]


Mod note: Let us not performatively hate on kids in this thread. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:41 PM on June 6, 2017 [8 favorites]


That may well be why it enrages us so much. Because after a point it can reduce us to the very children we don't want, stamping our feet and shouting NO I WILL NOT (or GUTS!! as the case may be). You're absolutely right, there is no real response. At least not one that any reasonable person will listen to, as a reasonable person hasn't asked the question in the first place.

Also I'm stealing that vegetarian line. That's brilliant.
posted by elsietheeel at 6:42 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


I am not hating on kids, FWIW. I am hating on having genetics I don't think it would be fair to burden children with.
posted by Samizdata at 6:43 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]


Yeah, for the record I actually love kids and if your toddler wandered off the sidewalk I'd dash into traffic to save them without a second thought. Just don't ask me to take them home and take care of them afterwards.

It's not about disliking children. It's about not wanting to be a parent.
posted by Lexica at 6:48 PM on June 6, 2017 [11 favorites]


It's The Question So Awkward, It Makes Ovarian Cancer a Relief
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:50 PM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]


Speaking for myself, I stopped getting most of the "you'll change your mind" around my mid-twenties, although I still typically have to briefly justify not having kids to people when I mention my husband (because, I guess, the only reason to get married is to have kids to a lot of people? It mystifies me.)

I have no desire to cuddle babies. In the words of Margaret Cho, I see them and I ovulate sand. They do nothing for me. I don't have pets, either; I just don't want long-term responsibility for anything more complicated than a plant any more. I largely think my college-age niece is growing up well, but I really don't know what to do with kids before that near-adult age and mostly find them confusing.
posted by tautological at 7:03 PM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]


Childless by choice here. As a late teen, I found the alt.support.childfree Usenet group back in the day, and it was a godsend. There was nobody else in my life who didn't want kids or have kids. I vaguely knew that I didn't want them, but I didn't have the confidence/self-assuredness to stand up for myself when people said, "You'll change your mind." I had no real-life role models on this, no examples. I felt wrong, and a.s.cf helped me feel right and OK with myself.

It's funny - nobody ever smugly told me "You'll change your mind" about my choice of college or major. Nobody said "You'll change your mind" about my career. They only ever say "You'll change your mind" about my choice not to have kids and my choice of getting a not-traditionally-feminine haircut.
posted by cadge at 7:09 PM on June 6, 2017 [9 favorites]


My friend's mom said that the reason to have children was because you could not satisfy your need to be around them in any other way, and I thought that was a good description. I'm okay being around kids occasionally, but it's not something I ever seek out and if I'm not around them for long periods I don't feel a lack.

Cats, on the other hand... I have three cats, my girlfriend (who I do not live with) also has three cats, many of my friends have cats... there are never enough cuddly cats, and having a cat around all the time who wants attention is just fine.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:11 PM on June 6, 2017 [10 favorites]



It's not about disliking children. It's about not wanting to be a parent.


I respect this point of view and this experience as I know it is common.

but (and this is not a screed directed at you), just as some women react badly to the implication they don't have child-liking instincts, I react badly to the implication that I don't want or can't handle total responsibility for someone else's life and wellbeing. Not only can I handle it, I have done it. once with a parent who took a fairly long time to die, and who taught me everything parents know about the long stage of caretaking when you can't sleep without staying on extreme alert for any noises that could mean bad things, and can't ever relax or stop paying attention, and can't ever forget the exact state of your charge's physical wellbeing and hunger and thirst levels. only in place of the faint scary possibility that it could all end badly if you're not careful, you have the absolute certainty that it will all end in the worst possible way, even if you are as careful and as perfect as only God can be, which I was. I have been a parent: with all of the burdens and none of the hope of reward.

now, I look after a pet, who is much less demanding in some ways than a baby and much more adorable, but will never ever grow past the stage of absolute physical dependence on me that parents only have to endure for a few years, and who is, unlike a child except in rare tragedies, absolutely positively guaranteed to die before I do. And I am going to have to be the one to decide when she dies, and make it happen. This is a grave moral duty that goes past anything parents are asked to do for their children in the usual, ordinary course of life.

so, no, I do not care for children in the age bracket that, generally speaking, does not care for strange adults either. The great thing about really young children is that they don't care if anybody but their friends, peers, parents, peers' parents, caretakers, and teachers likes them. Parents who get offended about women who don't love toddlers are doing so for their own great pleasure -- toddlers don't give a shit. so that's all fine.

but I will not let anybody get away with implying that the childless have less of a social conscience or less of an understanding of what it is to be what parents are mythologized to be and are ideally meant to be, or less experience of being just that, or less of the particular wisdom and virtue that is only born of great suffering for the good of others who cannot understand what you're doing for them at the time you're doing it. that is the lie I do not forgive.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:39 PM on June 6, 2017 [16 favorites]


I'm expected to think babies are wonderful and cute and want one. I don't and never have. I'm expected to have a feeling that is identified as biological clock. I did not ever experience this feeling.

I feel exactly the same way and thank you for saying this. I'm 35, have always felt like this, and by this point pretty much assume I always will feel like this. I'd thought some sort of baby lust would've kicked in by now, but no.

I could present numerous reasons and rationalizations for why I don't want children, but the simple fact is I just don't.

I do feel guilty when my mom tells me that she always knew she wanted to be a mom, and all I can think is that I've never had that feeling, ever. Not ever. I love my mom, but I have no desire to be a mom or to have a child of my own.
posted by wondermouse at 7:50 PM on June 6, 2017 [8 favorites]


One of the strange effects of the nuclear family is that not only do childless adults have little experience of children, but children have little experience of childless adults, and I think it's distorting -- in both directions. I grew up in a vast matrix of extended Catholic family, and from my earliest childhood I had childless-by-choice adults involved in my life, and that never struck me as strange or something to be judged, and it always strikes me as SO strange when people get up in someone's grill about them not having kids because DUDE, have you seriously never met someone before who didn't want kids? It's very possible they haven't! Maybe they grew up in a nuclear family surrounded by other nuclear families and their social nexus was purely through school and everyone is in a happy 2.5 child nuclear family and there is no social system outside of that! Whereas I grew up in this vast extended matrix of people, where my godfather chose (in 1980!) not to have children because of global warming and it was just a settled state of being that he and his wife didn't want children and it never occurred to me that that was weird or deserving of judgment or persuasion. They loved me, they loved my siblings and cousins, they just didn't want their own kids. Not weird!

Anyway when your family is full of people with kids and people without kids and people who became nuns and people in long-term live-in relationships with a same-sex "close friend" (in the 80s) who comes to all your family events and is clearly family but doesn't have a proper term like "uncle" and then you learn the word "gay" in 6th grade health you're like "OHHHHHHHH," you just get used to the fact that family is expansive and people choose many different lives and they're all still your family. Whereas if your family is JUST "this nuclear family" and all the other families you know are nuclear families, I sort-of see how people can get very narrow-minded about what a "family" can consist of and what "adulthood" ought to look like. But I don't think it's healthy, and I think it's really limiting for children to grow up with such a limited vision of what adulthood and family is like.

Anyway, I love kids, I love spending time with kids, I love having kids, but I find it super-weird that some people think people who DON'T want kids ought to have them anyway. (It sort-of makes me suspect the complainant is the one who doesn't actually like kids.) There's many paths in life, you know? And people don't all take the same one, and shouldn't all take the same one.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:52 PM on June 6, 2017 [18 favorites]


It is not OK to presume you know someone else's mind better than they do. Your doctor didn't put you through the pregnancy test because he thought you'd change your mind, he did it because it was a horrible liability situation for him if you were pregnant and your fetus was harmed by his prescription. He had a good reason and no choice in the matter.

I find this anecdote very close to infuriating because there are still many, and in the past were many many more, doctors who will refuse to perform permanent birth-control procedures on women who they deem to be "too young" or who haven't "had enough kids yet," in utter confidence that the woman will change their mind later and be grateful to them. This is a brutal disrespect for a woman's autonomy and judgment borne out of the same underlying attitude being discussed in this thread. Doctors are out there "saving" women from birth control, not just temporarily delaying until they can rule out the possibility of doing gratuitous harm to a fetus without the woman's full knowledge and consent. That doctor was not being paternalistic, but there are many many in his circumstances who are, and for me that verges on Handmaid's Tale territory.
posted by praemunire at 8:00 PM on June 6, 2017 [8 favorites]


I've been reading the Just City series by Jo Walton, and while there's a lot of weird stuff there, I found the later books' description of how children work to be really incredible. There's communal child rearing, and one scene where someone points out that a character would be good at caring for small children, and it becomes clear that actually that character didn't raise her own kid during that age group, she just took the kid on for a later age group, and it's all fine and there's no judgment and people just do what makes the most sense for them, and they have the freedom to make these choices.

Because I feel like without those freedoms, these battle lines get drawn, where people feel EITHER you have to be militantly anti-child, OR you have to be Mary Poppins: The Mom, Forever, and while those spectrums definitely exist, I feel like many people fall somewhere in the middle? Like some people may not necessarily mind the process of pregnancy, and would be interested to meet the child later or participate in moral-developing teaching or occasional tutoring, but don't want to sign up for full-time childcare for 18 years. Or some people really, really like kids when they're young and discovering everything, but not the later stages. Or some people think they have shit genetics, but don't mind rearing a kid. Or some people are okay with a kid living with them, but don't want to be the Primary Parent.

And I feel like those battle lines were drawn by our society, and they keep women separated, and we just don't have to be. Like, maybe we as a society should be talking more, all the time, about how we feel about this stuff, and then we might understand each other better rather than only finding each others' perspectives in a format that encourages us to oppose each other.

I don't know, maybe that's just too Pollyannaish, but it feels like women are constantly under attack and if we don't find ways to relate to each other there won't be anyone who will.
posted by corb at 8:09 PM on June 6, 2017 [13 favorites]


praemunire, you're totally right about that, but that's not what happened to corb; she wanted a drug that is known to be teratogenic and her doctor insisted on a pregnancy test before giving her a prescription, which is standard procedure. I have been in places where they won't even let women who might be pregnant enter certain areas of an industrial plant because of the presence of teratogenic chemicals. She was not being denied a service to coerce her fertility, it was being made sure that she wasn't carrying a fetus that would be harmed which she was it turned out. corb's experience is actually proof the doctor did the right thing, because her daughter was not harmed.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:14 PM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]


I don't get much baby nagging because I am permanently single and without a husband or boyfriend around to "oops" with, people just can't justify nagging me to get on with making a baby already. I look like I'm really young so strangers probably assume I have plenty of time and people who know me know I'm hopeless and will never find myself a man, so they don't say anything.

But I admit: after my last ex wanted kids, part of me just doesn't want to date again until I'm infertile so I don't ever have to deal with this. I don't ever want to be surprised with "I want kids!" again. I don't want to give up my life/soul/body to be a mom, I don't want the medical issues, and I'm terrible at being nurturing and self-sacrificing and caregiving. I am genuinely really scared of a guy deciding he wants a baby and that's the end of the relationship...so I don't have relationships. Sigh. I know it's ridiculous, but also it's not ridiculous to feel that way too. My last ex just wouldn't listen to me on this topic, so who's going to?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:20 PM on June 6, 2017 [15 favorites]


jenfullmoon: You can come over and play with my cats or the dog I'm dogsitting anytime you want.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:37 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]


corb makes a good point on the it takes a village thing, although my recent experience with that is kind of...not great.

I had a roommate about a year ago who moved in with her 8 year old daughter. I was excited at first because she's an awesome kid, but when it became apparent that my roommate expected me to take on a seriously parental role (and her parenting was EXTREMELY dysfunctional), I soured on the experience immediately.

But if I lived in a place with communal child rearing? I can help with babies. Babies love me. They're kind of like cats. If you ignore them, they come to you. At Christmas my estranged cousin was there with his one year old daughter, whom I had never met before. Because of the estrangement I made no effort to interact with said baby. Guess who spent the entire evening in my lap or trying to get into my lap? Aforementioned cousin was annoyed. So yes, put me in a nursery and give me all of the babies.

Except maybe someone else can change the diapers...
posted by elsietheeel at 8:49 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]


She was not being denied a service to coerce her fertility, it was being made sure that she wasn't carrying a fetus that would be harmed which she was it turned out. corb's experience is actually proof the doctor did the right thing, because her daughter was not harmed.

Yes, that was my point: to offer an example from that context to show how the Doctor Was Right, Really, And I Did Change My Mind is particularly inappropriate.
posted by praemunire at 9:21 PM on June 6, 2017


Well, all my pets have shared my last name. Then again, I'm always the one arguing that the monster has just as much right to his father-creator's name of Frankenstein as the doctor himself does.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:25 PM on June 6, 2017 [5 favorites]


I have a confession. I firmly expected to be childless. Our entire life plan was predicated on being told I was infertile. My entire friend group are childless people, who do childless people things, like traveling to see a play in another city, or popping off for the weekend to be naked in a seedy hotel while you role play Bogart and Bacall. Ya know, as you do.

Imagine my surprise, at 38, to turn up pregnant. And I don't even, for a second, regret being a parent. My kid is awesome. But I still want really nothing to do with other people's children. Small ones, I mean. Before they speak a recognizable language. Sticky ones. Stinky ones. No, thank you. Once they speak clearly and in sentence format, (ASL is fine too), and they can be reasoned with, I'm great with them. But at the helpless larval stage? Nope. None for me, thanks.

But y'all, despite giving birth at damn near 40, I got questions until I was 50 about when we were going to "give him a little brother or sister". Like, a baby was a gift. That needed a college fund. WTF?

To be fair though, to be the only childed couple in a group of childless friends, has been amazing. He gets exposed to so many things, so much art and theatre, and music, and he was showered with the coolest presents growing up, like telescopes and architecture models, and other things that the "aunts" and "uncles" wanted an excuse to play with, and someone else's house to store it in.

Childless people, I support your choice. People with kids, I support your choice. I consider it the pinnacle of rudeness for anyone to presume that they have the right to ask or opine on such a private decision.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:29 PM on June 6, 2017 [10 favorites]


Who will care for childless people when they age?

ROBOTS
ROBOTS
ROBOTS

No muss, no fuss, no expecting Millennials to be unpaid slave labor for their Boomer parents.

Well, that was a fucking easy question to answer. What's for lunch?
posted by happyroach at 11:48 PM on June 6, 2017 [8 favorites]


Even as a child I preferred animals and adults over children. I never played with dolls. ... Kids were annoying and difficult. I wanted to be with the adults. I wanted to learn and talk about adult things.

this is exactly what I was like as a kid! and I also have known forever that I didn't want kids.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:28 AM on June 7, 2017 [4 favorites]


Late to this party because of Trump, but it is something I've given a lot of thought over the years.
Apart from the fact that it is obviously rude to tell people they don't know about their own feelings, the problem with the pressure is that it sometimes works. I have not one but several friends who have had kids because that is what one does, rather than that was what they wanted, and I can't say it has worked out well. At best the child(ren) are not seriously harmed by growing up with parents who didn't really want them.
The reason I've thought so much about it is that I don't believe my mother wanted me. My grans both really, really wanted me and for their entire lives they treated me as the second coming of Christ (excuse the blasphemy, they did it not me). So yeah, the "village" saved me and I grew up to be relatively sane. But it took a lot of thinking before having children of my own, and I've spent a lot of time trying to be the village for kids who's parents weren't able to parent.
When I was younger and people spoke about their relationship with their mother, I was literally baffled, I couldn't recognize the concept of having a mother you could talk with about a scraped knee, or a broken friendship. It was only when I recognized that was the reaction I had with the grans, and as an adult manage to connect with my dad, that I dared have children of my own. And now I recognize immediately those kids out there who are lonely in that way.
So yes, if you don't want kids, or are ambivalent about kids, you are probably right.
Also: I know this can read as condemning of my mother and by extension of all those reluctant mothers out there. But the minute I realized that my mother had felt pressured and wanted a completely different life, I forgave her, and we have a fine relationship as adults who are related but not close. She did what she felt was right, and never wanted to hurt me.
posted by mumimor at 1:48 AM on June 7, 2017 [13 favorites]


Like, maybe we as a society should be talking more, all the time, about how we feel about this stuff, and then we might understand each other better rather than only finding each others' perspectives in a format that encourages us to oppose each other.

Spending more time talking it out sounds great. What it actually looks like is that I'm totally clear on the issues cis straight parents have and their expectations that society form itself around them, but no matter what I say as a queer child-free person with a physical disability, I will always be treated like I am on the margin, and my opinions and perspectives will always get less weight because I'm in the minority.

There's a huge difference between what the dominant group thinks of as adequate diversity and what smaller groups think of as adequate diversity, support, and representation.
posted by bile and syntax at 4:45 AM on June 7, 2017 [5 favorites]


> what it is actually like is picking a random roommate from the craigslist personals without reading their description and signing a contract that you won't kick them out for 18 years, no matter what their personality turns out to be like. also, if you hate them and they hate you, it's completely your own fault and nobody will be on your side about it. there is no way to have a child that is not inviting a random complete stranger into your home.

Um. I'm sure there are many parents out there that may agree, but I...disagree. That's not what having kids is like at all. Or rather, the above is true, but it's not the whole story. There's this other element called "love" that tempers everything listed above and then some.
posted by zardoz at 5:48 AM on June 7, 2017 [1 favorite]


I like kids just fine, but I also realize that I can be selfish and lazy and Id be like "Now that you can walk, go get Daddy a beer." In short, I have enough trouble taking care of myself, so no kids, at least right now, and I have my nieces and nephews.
posted by jonmc at 6:17 AM on June 7, 2017 [3 favorites]


Having younger people in our lives protects us as older people, and having children is one especially likely way to ensure a caretaker when we are elderly, in a world where elderly people are neglected and abandoned.

Sigh.

My grandparents had four children. None of them stuck around to do the work of caring for their parents in their old age; my mom is mentally ill and incredibly abusive, both my uncles are dead, and aside from being much too busy with her very demanding career that has her traveling 85% of the time, my aunt and my grandma have personalities that do not mesh well in the long term. So, who cares for grandma? Me. Not that she needs much care, she's almost 89 and is still living independently. But I'm here, and I'll be the person handling things as she gets less and less able to care for herself.

Of course, this means I cannot leave the area where she's chosen to live for the rest of her days. She's adamant that she will not reside outside Western Washington for the rest of her days, and she has a pretty decent apartment in a senior development that is subsidized by the county housing authority, so she's content to stay where she is forever. This means I'm stuck in an area with drastically rising costs of living, trying desperately to keep my head above water. Soon enough I'll have to be subsidizing her life as well, because she lives on her social security and with the cost of living outpacing any annual COLA increases she gets... well, someone has to cover the gap. That someone is me. I'd like to take a vacation someday, but that's never really in the cards for me -- no money, and who would take Grandma on her errands? I'd like to move to a different state, to an area where my best friend lives and in which I could actually buy a house on my own, but... can't. Gotta stay here in the Seattle area, gritting my teeth and going without basic necessities as my already high rent rises 10% every year but my salary rises not at all... who would take care of grandma if I left to finally go have a life of my own?

I'll be 40 in a few months. It's a good thing I never wanted kids, because how the fuck could I have kids in this situation? It's too bad that I wanted to have a life of my own, to travel, to have experiences that don't revolve around running my grandmother's errands.

In a better world, we'd have a social safety net that would provide help for caring for the elderly, so that people wouldn't have to spend the prime of their own lives doing unpaid grunt work that no one appreciates. We wouldn't expect women (IT IS ALWAYS WOMEN, GODDAMNIT) to give up their lives in service of others, a fucking bullshit expectation that I resent seeing trotted out here.
posted by palomar at 7:07 AM on June 7, 2017 [31 favorites]


Do you honestly think that people without kids don't know that parents love their kids? There are so many things that get said in these discussions that really don't need to be said.
posted by agregoli at 7:09 AM on June 7, 2017 [14 favorites]


I was at a union meeting last night about [a proposal that has a very disparate impact on people close to retirement with a lot of seniority and people forty and younger].

The union recently pushed for and won more parental leave, which is fantastic.

The younger workers in the room were in the minority and against the thing.

Both the union leadership in the room and the members who have seniority/are close to retirement repeatedly said "we went to bat for you about this parental leave thing, which is useless to us, so you have to cave in on this other thing or you're not showing solidarity". And we were all like "!!!!!!", because none of the younger people in the room had children and this was known to a number of the older people in the room.

As far as I could tell from the conversation in the room, me and at least one other younger person do not plan to have children even if the opportunity arises, and I am pretty sure that of the other younger people, a majority are not in serious, child-planning relationships.

It was an irritating framing, because to anyone without children, the moral is "you get nothing, because you didn't benefit from this kid thing and you stand to lose from this retiree thing". I mean, I can see the attraction of the retiree thing - I don't like it, but I can see its benefits - but I really resent being told that I "got something already" and need to suck it up.

(Also, this was really the first time that the Boomer/precariat split was super clear to me in my own life. Everyone who is close to retirement is going to get a full pension, social security, Medicare, etc, and they have a lot of seniority so they likely won't be laid off between now and retirement. Everyone who is not - and the workforce skews older - is extremely unlikely to benefit from the proposed thing, and will lose a particular advantage.

People retiring now will have, based on Social Security and the pension, a post-retirement income that is close to what I earn now, working full time at close to what will be my lifetime max, and most of them have paid-off houses. It's really tough to sit in a room and think about losing a benefit that is important to me while I'm told that it's "only fair" to these people to take it away. I have less job security, a less secure future, less money and our pension fund process will probably be redone to reduce benefits for younger employees next year if we elect a Republican governor...never mind cuts to social security. Also some of them voted for Trump! And there was a lot of grumbling about taxes.)
posted by Frowner at 7:10 AM on June 7, 2017 [12 favorites]


I think the great majority of kid-havers don't give a rat's ass about whether you are planning to have a kid. I think the great majority of kid-not-havers don't think that kid-havers are biological imperative slaves / narcissists who are ruining the environment.

Too bad we seem to represent ourselves so badly to each other, so often.
posted by gurple at 8:44 AM on June 7, 2017


how we feel about this stuff, and then we might understand each other better rather than only finding each others' perspectives in a format that encourages us to oppose each other.

I find this framing odd, because...I don't oppose any given person's having kids? I happily pay my taxes to support public education. I would pay more taxes to ensure universal child health insurance. I put up with the noise and the chaos when I go to Target and similar places. I don't dislike kids and am in fact happy to spend time with my friends' and family's kids. But I see zero need to "understand" anyone telling me that I just don't yet understand my own mind on a major life decision I've thought about for years. I will always oppose that, and I think people who oppose me on that really ought to ask themselves what they think they're doing.

The more people pester me to adopt their choice (when my choice doesn't directly affect them), the more I wonder how comfortable they are with their own.
posted by praemunire at 8:50 AM on June 7, 2017 [11 favorites]


No one should ever be pressured into having kids. No one.

I am currently pregnant. This was planned for and wanted, but finally becoming pregnant was an incredibly difficult decision that required a lifetime of intense consideration. Over the years, I have wanted to cheerfully murder people on both sides of the pro-kid and childfree fence, and there is still a deep, seething well of rage in me towards anyone who has responded to the news with an "It's about time!" or "Finally!" As if there is anything inevitable about becoming a parent in this day and age. I have joked to Guyagonalize that I could still abort out of spite to silence all the smug jerks.

I have spent many years justifying my childfree status to people, and the majority of my friends are still childfree, so I get it, I swear to the olds gods and the new, I do. There are a lot of people out there who feel perfectly comfortable being an unfettered asshole to anyone who chooses to live their life in a different manner to their own, and it really sucks that the majority of society seems to think being a parent is still the default status. But not everyone feels that way, even the ones who decide to have a kid.

I want to believe that over time, everyone will chill out, and it will cease to be a "breeders vs. child haters" war. My hope is that, eventually, everybody will just be considerate, productive members of society, pay their taxes, and do whatever the hell they want to do with their reproductive organs without everybody getting up in their business. Birth control and affordable daycare for whoever the hell wants it, and not a solitary damn word from anyone who feels entitled to grandbabies.
posted by Diagonalize at 9:24 AM on June 7, 2017 [4 favorites]


Personally I'm most frustrated that it is somewhat socially acceptable to hand-wring, in thinkpieces or in person, about "who will care for you when you're old??!?!" and yet the same question posed as "what if your children are physically, financially, mentally, emotionally incapable of caring for you, predecease you, are abused by you, or just plain don't want to do it?" would be shocking and rude such that I feel like an asshole even typing it. It's not like these situations are incredibly rare.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:38 AM on June 7, 2017 [17 favorites]


Yup. In my peer group, basically no one has any plans to do caretaking for their parents. Some people physically, emotionally, or financially can't, many are estranged from abusive parents, and a small handful of us are privileged enough that our parents will be able to afford their own skilled nursing care, barring major financial catastrophe. I get that's not everyone's experience or everyone's cultural expectation, but it's mine, and coming from that perspective it seems super weird and presumptuous to assume that one's children will do caregiving for them.

I have never seriously (or really even un-seriously) wanted children, but I've had a few check-ins with myself about the topic. And of the few items that weighed in the "pro" column, none of them were ever "likely caregiver in my old age." It's so strange to me that that's become a regular talking point in these conversations.

Another random thing I hate is the "but you'd be such GOOD parents!" thing. Do you live in my house, with my mentally ill partner and my mentally ill self? No. You see us on the best days, the days we can get our shit together enough to hang out and be cheerful and social and nurturing and supportive to our friends in the way that makes them think "those two would be good parents", apparently. Great, I'm glad you get the best part of us, that's how I want it. But a child would not get to be parented by me only on my best days, would deserve much more than I am able to give on a typical day or a bad day, and so "you'd be a great parent!" just comes through to me as a bullshit thing to say that doesn't in any way recognize the complexity of my life. (And I am not shy about that complexity. I don't talk about the worst of it, but there is a lot that I do talk about, publicly and often, and if you're not recognizing that when you tell me I'd be a great parent, that tells me you're not actually listening when I try to tell you about my life.)
posted by Stacey at 10:00 AM on June 7, 2017 [9 favorites]


Do men get this treatment from people they have no personal relationship with?

Yes. I'm a guy and it happened to me yesterday in a professional setting from another guy whom I had just met.
posted by vibrotronica at 10:05 AM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]


For the record, given the state of the American middle class, I have zero expectations that my son would have the time or the resources to take care of us, especially given how much older we are than most of his peers parents. Ill be 70 when he's 30. I wouldn't dream of asking him to give up his adult life and prime earning years.

That said, we are already prepared to give up retirement so that we can help him graduate from college without carrying a loan worth more than a house. I think, outside of quiverfull type families, most parents don't assume their kids will take care of them in old age.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:10 AM on June 7, 2017 [1 favorite]


As a one-and-done parent, I feel surprisingly closer to the middle of this discussion than I'd expect. Yes, I had a kid, but "just" one, and I've been asked when we're having another -- by friends and by strangers -- way more often than I'd expected.

To the extent that I have a chip on my shoulder about it, much as I think a lot of kid-free-by-choice people do. I have to remind myself that the great majority of people with multiple kids don't give a rat's ass whether I have another or not. The unpleasant few who bizarrely do don't speak for the rest.
posted by gurple at 10:38 AM on June 7, 2017 [1 favorite]


For me, it speaks much more to a complete absence in me of the feelings American society expects a woman to have about children. I'm expected to think babies are wonderful and cute and want one. I don't and never have. I'm expected to have a feeling that is identified as biological clock. I did not ever experience this feeling. I'm expected in many circles to think that being a mother is the center of a woman's life and her highest achievement. I'm expected to be charmed by coworkers' children and want to hear lots of stories about toilet training and soccer practice. I'm not charmed by their children and I am bored by their stories.

When faced with so many social messages that, as a woman, I must feel some innate love, and adoration, and desire for children, I find myself so incredibly lacking in any of those feelings, I can only summarize my complete outsider status as "I [guess] don't like children [because I obviously don't feel about them the way I'm supposed to.]"

posted by Squeak Attack at 7:02 PM on June 6


Oh, yes, this. A hundred times this!

I do not want children because I DO NOT WANT children!

Would I be a great parent? Sure, maybe. Do I and my partner have genetics that should be passed on? Absolutely! Are we excellent role models for future members of society? Hell yes!

But I do not WANT any, and so I am considered to be strange and unusual by people who invariably ask about my children. My husband does not get half of the backlash that I do, especially during the period of time when many of our friends were having kids; nor was he expected to ooh and ah over them, attend endless baby showers, or want to hold them when faced with the proud new parents.

In my younger days, I was so battered by these questions that I began to wonder what was wrong with me. Where was this urge for motherhood? Where was this love for babies? Not here, and so maybe I was defective? I have gotten past that thought, and past (most of) the questions since I am no longer of typical "childbearing" age, but people are still shocked when they learn I do not have kids, and do not want to hold theirs.

I was so afraid of being called out as a child hater that I used to lie and say that I liked kids, I just didn't want any. Now I am able to say, to a select few close friends, that I really don't want to be around kids if I can help it. I've gotten more tolerant of children as I've gotten past my teens and twenties, mostly because I have developed a stronger sense of empathy for human beings as I have matured. I treat each person as an individual, regardless of age. Some kids are assholes and I do not like them. Some kids are awesome people and I like them. Babies and toddlers are not yet communicative enough for me to make a decision, and so I have no reason to spend any time trying.

I still feel weird even typing this.
posted by blurker at 11:55 AM on June 7, 2017 [14 favorites]


Blurker I feel exactly the same way. I don't feel any urge to have or parent a child and never have. It's a neutral feeling.
posted by agregoli at 12:04 PM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]


Oh God please...parents, if you promise not to tell childless people unsolicited stories about your kids or show them pictures, we promise we won't reciprocate with stories and pictures of our pets.

If you're not willing to make that deal then you'd better sit down, because my cat is pretty amazing and this is going to take a while.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:48 PM on June 7, 2017 [10 favorites]


The "but who will take care of you" sentiment is so weird. It counts on a reality that's not true anymore, that children will have the means to support their parents and themselves. I mean, it wasn't necessarily true in the past either but the future looks downright bleak.
posted by Memo at 1:36 PM on June 7, 2017 [4 favorites]


So, currently 6 months pregnant, so feel to some extent I'm in the middle of this. I've been pretty privileged in that my own timetable for doing things has generally aligned pretty well with society's expectations of appropriate ages to do things e.g. I got engaged at 26, married at 27, am on track to have a baby at 31 etc. But even with all that, I got a couple "Finally!" comments when I said I was pregnant, and my mother in particular had been bugging me not to wait too long to have a baby. Since it was only a matter of when not if, this did not bug me a huge amount, but it undoubtedly would have if I did not want a child. It's especially annoying given that she made my dad promise that he wouldn't want any children when they got married, then changed her mind 7 years later. But they mutually decided that one child was enough, and when she got unexpectedly pregnant after having me, they agreed on an abortion. So I would think she would have a bit more understanding - but now she's in a weird regretful mode where she wishes she'd had another kid and keeps suggesting I have 3, which is definitely not happening and which I completely shut down. So that's just to establish that I 100% agree that bugging people about their decision to have children or not is completely inappropriate and wrong and never an ok thing to do.

I did want to push back a little bit on this idea though:
For me, it speaks much more to a complete absence in me of the feelings American society expects a woman to have about children. I'm expected to think babies are wonderful and cute and want one. I don't and never have. I'm expected to have a feeling that is identified as biological clock. I did not ever experience this feeling. I'm expected in many circles to think that being a mother is the center of a woman's life and her highest achievement. I'm expected to be charmed by coworkers' children and want to hear lots of stories about toilet training and soccer practice. I'm not charmed by their children and I am bored by their stories.

I just think that this notion of the appropriate mother is pretty limiting. I have never doubted that I would have children at some point, but I have no particular desire to hold babies or coo over them. I am the furthest from thinking that being a mother is the center of a woman's life and her highest achievement - I've seen firsthand the huge rewards my mother has reaped from not allowing motherhood to take over her life and I have no intention of letting my career slip. I couldn't care less about toilet training or soccer practice or any of that stuff, except to the extent that it will be immediately relevant to my child's life. And I guess I reject the notion that that's the only way to be a mother. The notion that you have to let your identity as a mother subsume every other identity you have is a pernicious one, both to mothers, and I'd argue, to children too, who need to realize that the world doesn't revolve around them. Don't get me wrong - now that I've committed to having a child, I'm all in on that commitment, but there's more than one way to be a good mother.
posted by peacheater at 1:49 PM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]


I'm expected to be charmed by coworkers' children and want to hear lots of stories about toilet training and soccer practice. I'm not charmed by their children and I am bored by their stories.

I think, for me, a lot of this kind of expectation is more of a social fiction than anything else. For example, despite being a mom who loves being a mom, I am much more likely to bond over and be excited by people's large-dog stories than I am over their child-having stories. I would also find stories about soccer practice unutterably boring. But the real key here is, I suppose, that I think most people's stories are boring, and I recognize that what I am doing when I am listening to people's boring stories is performing emotional labor for the friendship and so that my friends can share the things that are important to them. I always want to hear my friends' boring stories, not because they have suddenly become interesting, but because it is a sign of friendship that they felt they could share those stories with me.

And I suppose that's why I'm always bothered by the 'your stories about your kids are so boring, stop telling them' attitudes - because it feels like saying, "Ugh, I don't want to do emotional labor on YOUR behalf, but you keep right up doing emotional labor on mine!" Like, the people who would say "I don't want to hear stories of your kid's Cute Thing" are presumably still wanting to tell me stories about their bar-hopping adventures, which I also find unutterably boring, but because it's important to them I laugh and groan in the right places so they feel heard. And it feels like people are saying, "I don't think parents are worth enough to me for me to have to listen to their hopes and dreams and joys". I don't know if that's meant, but that's what I feel whenever I hear it.
posted by corb at 2:14 PM on June 7, 2017 [4 favorites]


This comes back to the relationship you have with someone. If you're my friend and I love you (which, if you're my friend then I assume that I love you...) then of course I want to hear about your kids and I'm happy to share stories and emotional labor with you and bond. That's what friendship is about. So don't worry corb, your friends want to hear your stories because they love you.

But when a coworker randomly comes up to my desk and tells me a story about what their 3 year old grandson in Idaho did last Tuesday? Oh my god I have work to do, and I'm sure you do as well. Please go and do it.

(It's even worse when they come to visit and then coworker brings them around the office and you have to pretend to care about a 3 year old from Idaho. Oh, you're from Idaho. It snows there, doesn't it? Are you having fun with grandma? Yes, that's lovely. Okay bye bye now! Bye! BYE!)
posted by elsietheeel at 2:26 PM on June 7, 2017 [8 favorites]


To me all little kid stories are exactly the same: the baby eats and poops and vomits. The parent is frustrated about lack of sleep. Nothing about this is unique, nothing offers me any insight. Watching my bright, creative, fun friends dedicate themselves to this drudgery is sad for me, and alienating, and I have lost friends over it not because I was a jerk (believe it or not) but because my friends became very self-important about it and started acting like I am less than they are because I don't have kids and don't want to. For me in particular there are some very ugly heterosexist biases involved and that makes it worse.

It's also hard in that people often feel very entitled to talk about parenting and kids ALL THE TIME and without a filter. If I don't want to hear the minutiae of pregnancy and very early childhood, I'm a monster. I don't have the same sense of entitlement about talking about my struggles with my health: I would never tell my friend with the needle phobia about the various injectors I've gotten to try out; I don't assume everyone wants to know how my bowels are doing; I don't randomly comment on my pain level. I filter, and I don't understand why it's unreasonable to expect that same courtesy in return.

Also also I'm going to start punching people who say things like "you can't know what tired is if you don't have a baby."
posted by bile and syntax at 2:43 PM on June 7, 2017 [13 favorites]


the "who will take care of you?" argument has always seemed bizarre to me. So this is your investment strategy? Spend 18 years working full time, then decades part time, at a second job that actually costs you hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, so that in your last decade someone might take care of you?
posted by bongo_x at 2:54 PM on June 7, 2017 [3 favorites]


I mean, there are people who tell boring stories and there are people who recognize that other people only have so much interest in the details of their lives. Some of these people are parents, and some aren't. I have a coworker who would stand next to your desk for 30 minutes at a time telling you the latest excruciating story about her English bulldogs. I rarely talk about my pregnancy at work, unless specifically asked about it. I mean when I was vomiting every few hours, that did naturally tend to come up, but even then I think there were exactly three people I talked about it with, and that's because I had to give them some explanation for why I would randomly jump up from lunch to rush to the bathroom. I wouldn't tar every single parent with the same brush.
posted by peacheater at 2:54 PM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]


my mother in particular had been bugging me not to wait too long to have a baby. Since it was only a matter of when not if, this did not bug me a huge amount

So this article, written by a woman who does not want and has never wanted children, doesn't seem to be addressed to you. Or to any of the parents in this thread who seem to feel obliged to remind those of us who do not want children about things like "parents love their children".

There are a lot of topics where MeFites have come to recognize that experience in one realm doesn't translate well to experience in another. My experience of being on the receiving end of sexism and misogyny doesn't give me any particular insight into somebody else's experience of being on the receiving end of racism, for example. So no, having a co-worker who talks your ear off about their pet is not the same as choosing not to have children in a society where having children is the default expectation and thus having to deal with all the random strangers (on top of one's well-meaning but pushy and intrusive friends and family) lecturing you about how they know better than you do whether you should reproduce.

If you've got kids and love them, great! May you and they be well and happy. If you don't have kids but want to, I wish you luck conceiving and bearing them. But if that's your situation and the discussion is about what it's like to be childless by choice, please consider that your experience is not particularly relevant, and we've probably already heard it multiple times.
posted by Lexica at 3:14 PM on June 7, 2017 [18 favorites]


also I wish people wouldn't compare having children to bungee jumping into the grand canyon or something equally grandiose, even if stupid. what it is actually like is picking a random roommate from the craigslist personals without reading their description and signing a contract that you won't kick them out for 18 years, no matter what their personality turns out to be like.

It's also like saying yes to a random craigslist personal where the only thing you know is that they are going to — for a certainty — wreck some of your stuff.
posted by SpacemanStix at 3:17 PM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]


I wouldn't tar every single parent with the same brush.
posted by peacheater


I don't see where anyone here has, or needs to be admonished to not do that.
posted by agregoli at 3:18 PM on June 7, 2017 [5 favorites]


Or what Lexica said!
posted by agregoli at 3:20 PM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]


As a mildly socially anxious person without kids, other people's kids are a super safe smalltalk strategy. It lets the other person lead the conversation, which is handy while I find my feet.

In fact, learning to feed off any enthusiasm has been a good Dale Carnegie thing for me. Plus you learn interesting stuff.

So tell me about your kids, folks. You're actually doing me a favor!
posted by Sauce Trough at 3:25 PM on June 7, 2017 [1 favorite]


I just think that this notion of the appropriate mother is pretty limiting.

peacheater, of course it's limiting. And of course I don't buy into it. I was talking about the social norms, and people trying to force you to adhere to them, and how alienating they are when you are so far outside them.

I'm not talking about individual moms I know who are amazing. Of course I'm not and no one here needs to be defensive. I'm talking about the great Ur "woman-ness" of American culture that we're stewing in, and begins in the crib the first time someone gives a wee girl a baby doll. Thank your grandma for the baby doll and you're looking at that thing thinking some three-year-old equivalent of "WTF am I supposed to do with this?" and then the literature and the media and older relatives talking to about being a mommy and wanting babies literally never lets up and you just spend so much time wondering, at seven or eight, how the hell you got wired so wrong that you find human babies repellant but would throw yourself in front of a speeding car for a kitten or baby bird. And you haven't even hit puberty yet.
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:30 PM on June 7, 2017 [8 favorites]


"I don't see where anyone here has, or needs to be admonished to not do that."

I reacting to the quoted bit below which seemed to paint parents with a pretty broad brush.
If I don't want to hear the minutiae of pregnancy and very early childhood, I'm a monster. I don't have the same sense of entitlement about talking about my struggles with my health: I would never tell my friend with the needle phobia about the various injectors I've gotten to try out; I don't assume everyone wants to know how my bowels are doing; I don't randomly comment on my pain level. I filter, and I don't understand why it's unreasonable to expect that same courtesy in return.

But, ok, fair enough, I'll bow out of this discussion as I agree that my experiences are pretty different from those of the original article. I guess I was trying to make a case for American notions of motherhood entrapping both those who want to have kids and those who don't, but I do agree that its effects are likely much more keenly felt on those who don't want kids at all.
posted by peacheater at 3:33 PM on June 7, 2017 [1 favorite]


Thanks - just like we can't have a feminism discussion without someone stating "not all men," it seems we can't have a childfree discussion without parents getting defensive. No one here has painted parents with a broad brush - they have been speaking honestly about their experiences.
posted by agregoli at 3:43 PM on June 7, 2017 [9 favorites]


peacheater, I said often, not always without exception.

And this is part of what's frustrating: my options are to be relentlessly positive or get told off.
posted by bile and syntax at 4:54 PM on June 7, 2017 [6 favorites]


Re: corb: Yes, that was my point: to offer an example from that context to show how the Doctor Was Right, Really, And I Did Change My Mind is particularly inappropriate.

That is not what happened. The Doctor was not Right about corb changing her mind, the Doctor was Right about the fact that she might have been pregnant which is an objective thing that either might or might not be true, not an opinion like whether I do or don't want children. Thus the requirement for the pregnancy test. And had corb wanted the depo-provera more than the baby, she could have had the abortion and then gone back for her shot. The doctor's opinion on that is irrelevant as long as he was willing to perform the service after the test came back negative.

You don't fuck around with teratogens. Your opinion does not trump the pregnancy test. You get the fucking pregnancy test. It's the procedure, and with good reason. It's not about coercing you to have children, it's about the possibility that you might be wrong about your own circumstances. Not about your mind, but about your circumstances. Had corb not been pregnant she'd probably still be pissed at her doctor and railing about it here. That it saved the baby she didn't know she was carrying isn't a miracle, it's the medical system doing what it's supposed to do. And had she been of a different mind, she would have got the abortion and then her DP shot, and all would be right with the world.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:37 PM on June 7, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'm pretty sure that praemunire is agreeing with you, Bringer Tom, and trying to explain why it's a bad example for corb to be directly comparing to the article.
posted by sagc at 7:44 PM on June 7, 2017 [3 favorites]


If you're right, sagc, I owe praemunire an apology. It has been a long day for me in unrelated ways.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:47 PM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]


Thanks - just like we can't have a feminism discussion without someone stating "not all men," it seems we can't have a childfree discussion without parents getting defensive.

This is a discussion about the attitudes of the kid-having toward the childfree. It's based on an article in which the author aggressed somewhat toward parents (parents are narcissists, parents are planet-destroyers). peacheater wasn't defensive.
posted by gurple at 8:38 PM on June 7, 2017 [1 favorite]


Okay, but is the reverse any better, or does it put us back to the status-quo, where the childless are constantly having to defend their childlessness? Which... the author was reacting to...
posted by elsietheeel at 10:18 PM on June 7, 2017 [2 favorites]


FWIW, I think peacheater's commentary was a fair addition to the conversation, despite not being the exact topic of the article. Random nobodies don't get a vote on whether I have children, and they also don't get a vote on how many children she will have. (My friends and family don't get a vote either, but they have the sense not to give me unsolicited advice.)
posted by ktkt at 3:09 AM on June 8, 2017 [1 favorite]


Also also I'm going to start punching people who say things like "you can't know what tired is if you don't have a baby.

this.

I've worked 10-12 hour days building decks, sledghammering for 7 hours one day, loading and unloading lumber the next and, you know, building 500 sqft of beautiful deck the next, on 4 hours of sleep. 48 hours - 4 hours sleep, 20 hours working like a frickn boss... and YOU'RE telling ME about TIRED?!?! LOL. grow up.
posted by some loser at 5:57 PM on June 8, 2017 [3 favorites]


Yes much to parents' collective dismay, the rest of us can understand both tiredness AND love. In fact, I love being childfree as much as you love your kid, and I am as tired of defending my decision as you are of holding down a job AND being a parent!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 4:52 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]


and in the past were many many more, doctors who will refuse to perform permanent birth-control procedures on women who they deem to be "too young" or who haven't "had enough kids yet," in utter confidence that the woman will change their mind later and be grateful to them.

*Raises hand* At 16 I knew I didn't want kids. At 25, I wanted my tubes tied. I was given Depo instead which made me suicidal and gain 25 lbs. It wasn't until I was 35 that I got a doctor to do permanent birth control. And after allllll that... It didn't work. *SOB* No kids, thankfully, but it's still very possible for me to get pregnant and if I did, it would egtopic and deadly. Sigh. All in all, this whole "woman" thing has been a disappointment to me.
posted by greermahoney at 11:14 PM on June 11, 2017


I think this is a good time and place to leave this right here.
posted by elsietheeel at 9:19 PM on June 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


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