"Crash" was robbed.
June 9, 2017 9:00 AM Subscribe
So, they have some that are clearly stand-ins: Spirited Away for "Miyazaki Films", I agree with, but Inside Out for "Pixar" (and not Toy Story 3 or Up) and Inside Llewyn Davis for "Coen Brothers" were both...unusual picks, to say the least. Which they admit in both cases, but, still.
Also, I fully agree with Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind being on there, but they seem to have confused Orlando Bloom with Elijah Wood.
posted by damayanti at 9:13 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also, I fully agree with Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind being on there, but they seem to have confused Orlando Bloom with Elijah Wood.
posted by damayanti at 9:13 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Insanely wrong "best blank of blank" listicles are the laziest clickbait going.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:14 AM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Sys Rq at 9:14 AM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
Well, I'm sure this won't be contentious at all...
posted by Theta States at 9:16 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Theta States at 9:16 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Never saw "Timbuktu," but I immediately thought of Timbuk 3's cover art for "Greetings From Timbuk 3" when I saw the GIF for that entry.
posted by NoMich at 9:19 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by NoMich at 9:19 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Can someone please post the whole list? All of the NYT embedded clips keep crashing my work's browser.
posted by Theta States at 9:21 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Theta States at 9:21 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Awesome. Found a few new (international) releases to sink my teeth into.
The two I'd wager will not age so gracefully on the list are Boyhood and Moonlight. The former is, by all means, an incredibly mediocre film beyond the 12-year gimmick, which is an unbelievable feat to pull off, but to a resounding "meh". Meanwhile, Moonlight had an incredible first act, then just sort of meanders and dithers to a conclusion.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 9:21 AM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
The two I'd wager will not age so gracefully on the list are Boyhood and Moonlight. The former is, by all means, an incredibly mediocre film beyond the 12-year gimmick, which is an unbelievable feat to pull off, but to a resounding "meh". Meanwhile, Moonlight had an incredible first act, then just sort of meanders and dithers to a conclusion.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 9:21 AM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
Mad Max: Fury Road and Moonlight's inclusion back-to-back is a very smooth move into tricking me into thinking I agree with the rest of the list.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:23 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:23 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
So it's well-weighted by international films? Where's 'Oldboy'? Where's 'Love Exposure'?
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 9:24 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 9:24 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Where's "Mulholland Drive?" Where's "Crouching Tiger?" Where's "Birdman?"
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:24 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:24 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
The Death of Mr. Lazarescu is pretty amazing. Nice to see it get that recognition.
There's a totally plausible alternate version of this that could be made with three to five more Romanian films on it. Really, 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days absolutely *should* be on this list.
What an outstanding century of film this is shaping up to be for a country with the population of Florida.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:25 AM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
There's a totally plausible alternate version of this that could be made with three to five more Romanian films on it. Really, 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days absolutely *should* be on this list.
What an outstanding century of film this is shaping up to be for a country with the population of Florida.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:25 AM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
Where's "Crouching Tiger?"
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is from 2000, which is not in the 21st century.
posted by Pendragon at 9:33 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is from 2000, which is not in the 21st century.
posted by Pendragon at 9:33 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Which also disqualifies " Yi Yi" and "The Gleaners and I" who are on the list.
posted by Pendragon at 9:35 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 9:35 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Can someone please post the whole list? All of the NYT embedded clips keep crashing my work's browser.
1. There Will Be Blood
2. Spirited Away
3. Million Dollar Baby
4. A Touch of Sin
5. The Death of Mr. Lazarescu
6. Yi Yi
7. Inside Out
8. Boyhood
9. Summer Hours
10. The Hurt Locker
11. Inside Llewyn Davis
12. Timbuktu
13. In Jackson Heights
14. L’Enfant
15. White Material
16. Munich
17. Three Times
18. The Gleaners and I
19. Mad Max: Fury Road
20. Moonlight
21. Wendy and Lucy
22. I’m Not There
23. Silent Light
24. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
25. The 40-Year-Old Virgin
posted by amarynth at 9:36 AM on June 9, 2017 [13 favorites]
1. There Will Be Blood
2. Spirited Away
3. Million Dollar Baby
4. A Touch of Sin
5. The Death of Mr. Lazarescu
6. Yi Yi
7. Inside Out
8. Boyhood
9. Summer Hours
10. The Hurt Locker
11. Inside Llewyn Davis
12. Timbuktu
13. In Jackson Heights
14. L’Enfant
15. White Material
16. Munich
17. Three Times
18. The Gleaners and I
19. Mad Max: Fury Road
20. Moonlight
21. Wendy and Lucy
22. I’m Not There
23. Silent Light
24. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
25. The 40-Year-Old Virgin
posted by amarynth at 9:36 AM on June 9, 2017 [13 favorites]
OPINIONS ARE FACTS AND THIS LIST IS ALL LIES
posted by saladin at 9:37 AM on June 9, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by saladin at 9:37 AM on June 9, 2017 [12 favorites]
NO SYNECHDOCHE NY???
NO MULHOLLAND DRIVE???
*flips table*
The 40-Year-Old Virgin???
posted by Theta States at 9:39 AM on June 9, 2017 [18 favorites]
NO MULHOLLAND DRIVE???
*flips table*
The 40-Year-Old Virgin???
posted by Theta States at 9:39 AM on June 9, 2017 [18 favorites]
Every one of these I've seen (about half the list) was at least a very good movie, aside from Munich, which...*did* I watch that? I'm pretty sure I did.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:39 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:39 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
If you need me I'll be cleaning my computer pieces off the floor
posted by Theta States at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Theta States at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
Also, thanks for posting the list. ;)
posted by Theta States at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Theta States at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
How is Amélie not on this list?!?
posted by Fizz at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's as though they knew they needed an action film but that's about as far as they were going to go with it, and even admitted they turned to outsiders for help.
Mad Max: Fury Road is indeed great.
So is The Raid; better still, in terms of action, is The Raid 2. So is Snowpiercer. If they really wanted to impress me, they might have gone with Hardcore Henry. That would have been a bold choice.
Otherwise, genres are all but ignored. No horror films, despite the fact that we are living in the best era of horror films I can ever recall. No Westerns, despite Hell or High Water, True Grit, Meek's Cutoff.
I'm glad there is such an international focus, and that they were savvy enough to include a few women directors. But I find film critics' tastes to be entirely predictable and limited.
posted by maxsparber at 9:44 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mad Max: Fury Road is indeed great.
So is The Raid; better still, in terms of action, is The Raid 2. So is Snowpiercer. If they really wanted to impress me, they might have gone with Hardcore Henry. That would have been a bold choice.
Otherwise, genres are all but ignored. No horror films, despite the fact that we are living in the best era of horror films I can ever recall. No Westerns, despite Hell or High Water, True Grit, Meek's Cutoff.
I'm glad there is such an international focus, and that they were savvy enough to include a few women directors. But I find film critics' tastes to be entirely predictable and limited.
posted by maxsparber at 9:44 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Grouchy Tiger, Itchy Dragon was overrated as a film. A fine action flick, but best film? No. Properly excluded.
There are a lot of films on this list that I haven't seen. Will add them to the list.
posted by Xoc at 9:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
There are a lot of films on this list that I haven't seen. Will add them to the list.
posted by Xoc at 9:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I liked Snowpiercer quite a bit, but I wouldn't say it exceeded Fury Road in terms of the quality of the action scenes. The Raid (haven't seen the second one) perhaps, although I was put off a bit by how freaking violent it was; I told a friend it was like a Jackie Chan movie where people get stabbed in the throat with broken light bulbs and decapitated by jagged hunks of wood.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:55 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:55 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Needs more Brick.
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:55 AM on June 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:55 AM on June 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
2001: A Space Odyssey not on this list! Kubrick got robbed!
posted by Fizz at 9:57 AM on June 9, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 9:57 AM on June 9, 2017 [16 favorites]
I liked Snowpiercer quite a bit, but I wouldn't say it exceeded Fury Road in terms of the quality of the action scenes.
No, but I'd say it exceeded The 40-Year-Old Virgin in terms of belonging on this list.
posted by maxsparber at 9:57 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
No, but I'd say it exceeded The 40-Year-Old Virgin in terms of belonging on this list.
posted by maxsparber at 9:57 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
No horror films, despite the fact that we are living in the best era of horror films I can ever recall.
Could you recommend a few? I live in a house with no real horror fans, so I have become rather unaware of what is going on with the genre, and the few highlights I have seen are coming from other countries (I recently saw Train to Busan and quite enjoyed it) but I am finding it hard to pick the gold from the dross when I do have opportunity.
posted by nubs at 9:58 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Could you recommend a few? I live in a house with no real horror fans, so I have become rather unaware of what is going on with the genre, and the few highlights I have seen are coming from other countries (I recently saw Train to Busan and quite enjoyed it) but I am finding it hard to pick the gold from the dross when I do have opportunity.
posted by nubs at 9:58 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
And The 40 Year Old Virgin seems like their token comedy. Shaun of the Dead was from 2004, for Pete's Sake. What We Do In The Shadows was just three years ago.
posted by maxsparber at 10:00 AM on June 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 10:00 AM on June 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
Could you recommend a few? I live in a house with no real horror fans, so I have become rather unaware of what is going on with the genre, and the few highlights I have seen are coming from other countries (I recently saw Train to Busan and quite enjoyed it) but I am finding it hard to pick the gold from the dross when I do have opportunity.
House of the Devil (2009). I'm sad that I don't get to watch that for the first time again.
posted by NoMich at 10:03 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
House of the Devil (2009). I'm sad that I don't get to watch that for the first time again.
posted by NoMich at 10:03 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also needs more Pan and Memento.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:03 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:03 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Could you recommend a few?
"Let The Right One In" is probably the best of the century thus far. Also: The Babadook and It Follows.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:04 AM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
"Let The Right One In" is probably the best of the century thus far. Also: The Babadook and It Follows.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:04 AM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
Which Crash?
posted by Artw at 10:04 AM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:04 AM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
(I meant Pan's Labyrinth, dammit.)
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:05 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:05 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
Also it's a great lisrcwith some great writing and all "argue it's got X not Y" comments are fundamentally reductive and dumb.
posted by Artw at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
On the comedy front; I would put any film of the Cornetto Trilogy ahead of the 40 Year Old Virgin. Or even Burn After Reading (the Coen Brothers movie for our time) from 2008.
posted by nubs at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by nubs at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I loved Timbuktu!
posted by little onion at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017
posted by little onion at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017
Could you recommend a few?
28 Days Later
Kill List
The VVitch
It Follows
Paranormal Activity
Let the Right One In
The Descent
Dog Soldiers
Ringu
The Others
The Devil's Backbone
posted by Kafkaesque at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
28 Days Later
Kill List
The VVitch
It Follows
Paranormal Activity
Let the Right One In
The Descent
Dog Soldiers
Ringu
The Others
The Devil's Backbone
posted by Kafkaesque at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
I clearly need to watch The Hurt Locker again as I apparently didn't get it. I mean, it was great, but a loooooooong way away from this list.
posted by sektah at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by sektah at 10:06 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Which Crash?
Truth. Shame that that weird-ass movie was overshadowed by the melodrama.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:09 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Truth. Shame that that weird-ass movie was overshadowed by the melodrama.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:09 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
List could certainly be worse. I must say, though, that it does seem the work of Michael Haneke was somehow overlooked. Caché or The White Ribbon ought to be on the list. I think a case could also be made for Winter Sleep (Nuri Bilge Ceylan) and Abdellatif Kechiche's Blue is the Warmest Colour. In the end, still a list centred around American cinema (Million Dollar Baby, The Hurt Locker, Munich, and The 40-Year-Old Virgin, are not exceptional films).
posted by standardasparagus at 10:10 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by standardasparagus at 10:10 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Which Crash?
The sucky one, about race relations. Not the good one about sexytime car crashes.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 10:11 AM on June 9, 2017 [12 favorites]
The sucky one, about race relations. Not the good one about sexytime car crashes.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 10:11 AM on June 9, 2017 [12 favorites]
Could you recommend a few?
Here's my personal favorites from the past few years, in no particular order:
Get Out
It Follows
A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night
Bone Tomahawk
The Babadook (gay icon to boot!)
10 Cloverfield Lane
Train to Busan
The Love Witch
Raw
The Witch
The immensely weird Witching and Bitching
Paranorman
The Cabin in the Woods
Let the Right One In
Tucker and Dale Vs Evil (and, in the parody genre, the superb What We Do in the Shadows)
The Last Exorcism
Troll Hunter
Pontypool
The Devil's Backbone
There may be others, but these are what spring to mind.
posted by maxsparber at 10:12 AM on June 9, 2017 [17 favorites]
Here's my personal favorites from the past few years, in no particular order:
Get Out
It Follows
A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night
Bone Tomahawk
The Babadook (gay icon to boot!)
10 Cloverfield Lane
Train to Busan
The Love Witch
Raw
The Witch
The immensely weird Witching and Bitching
Paranorman
The Cabin in the Woods
Let the Right One In
Tucker and Dale Vs Evil (and, in the parody genre, the superb What We Do in the Shadows)
The Last Exorcism
Troll Hunter
Pontypool
The Devil's Backbone
There may be others, but these are what spring to mind.
posted by maxsparber at 10:12 AM on June 9, 2017 [17 favorites]
Oh, three more: In the Mood for Love (Wong Kar-Wai), Werckmeister Harmonies (Béla Tarr), Ten (Abbas Kiarostami). Very pleased to see Agnès Varda on the Times' list, however.
posted by standardasparagus at 10:17 AM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by standardasparagus at 10:17 AM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
All of those horror movies, yeah. Also Triangle, which is just stunning.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:17 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:17 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, Béla Tarr really should have made this list somewhere.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:18 AM on June 9, 2017
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:18 AM on June 9, 2017
Oh ffs why did they have to be all contrarian and pick Llewyn Davis
And yes children of men deserves to be on the list
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 10:26 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
And yes children of men deserves to be on the list
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 10:26 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Grouchy Tiger, Itchy Dragon was overrated as a film.
In my house it's Crunchy Tiger, Chewy Dragon.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:39 AM on June 9, 2017
In my house it's Crunchy Tiger, Chewy Dragon.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:39 AM on June 9, 2017
10. The Hurt Locker
No. If they have to have a war movie:
Jarhead, Black Hawk Down.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:46 AM on June 9, 2017
No. If they have to have a war movie:
Jarhead, Black Hawk Down.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:46 AM on June 9, 2017
I clearly need to watch The Hurt Locker again as I apparently didn't get it.
I'm of the same mind with Million Dollar Baby. I just didn't get the love for it.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:47 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm of the same mind with Million Dollar Baby. I just didn't get the love for it.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:47 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh ffs why did they have to be all contrarian and pick Llewyn Davis
I got married in the building where they filmed the club scenes (with all of the fake brickwork intact!) and I still disliked that film.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:49 AM on June 9, 2017
I got married in the building where they filmed the club scenes (with all of the fake brickwork intact!) and I still disliked that film.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:49 AM on June 9, 2017
The two I'd wager will not age so gracefully on the list are Boyhood and Moonlight. The former is, by all means, an incredibly mediocre film beyond the 12-year gimmick, which is an unbelievable feat to pull off, but to a resounding "meh".
Linklater is not my jam either, but even I can tell that he does what he does very well. I'm just not personally into the thing he does. A whole lot f people are, though, and for those people, Boyhood is clearly one of the top 25 movies of the century so far.
Meanwhile, Moonlight had an incredible first act, then just sort of meanders and dithers to a conclusion.
Oh, wait, nevermind. You're clearly wrong about literally everything and I now totally appreciate Richard Linklater out of pure spite.
And because this is what you do in these types of discussions:
This really, really needed a Bela Tarr movie, either Turin Horse or Werckmeister Harmonies.
In the Mood for Love should also be a shoo-in. I don't think that's even all that subjective.
Yeah, as others have said, Mulholland Drive too. It's almost as much a shoo-in as In the Mood for Love.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:50 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Linklater is not my jam either, but even I can tell that he does what he does very well. I'm just not personally into the thing he does. A whole lot f people are, though, and for those people, Boyhood is clearly one of the top 25 movies of the century so far.
Meanwhile, Moonlight had an incredible first act, then just sort of meanders and dithers to a conclusion.
Oh, wait, nevermind. You're clearly wrong about literally everything and I now totally appreciate Richard Linklater out of pure spite.
And because this is what you do in these types of discussions:
This really, really needed a Bela Tarr movie, either Turin Horse or Werckmeister Harmonies.
In the Mood for Love should also be a shoo-in. I don't think that's even all that subjective.
Yeah, as others have said, Mulholland Drive too. It's almost as much a shoo-in as In the Mood for Love.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:50 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Could you recommend a few?
I got some flat out amazing answers on this AskMe asking for best horror films of the last 10 years and oh my god that was five years ago. What's amazing is the films released in the meantime, which mostly encompases the ones mentioned here, are even better.
(Maybe I should ask it again and see if there's anything I've missed)
posted by Artw at 10:51 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I got some flat out amazing answers on this AskMe asking for best horror films of the last 10 years and oh my god that was five years ago. What's amazing is the films released in the meantime, which mostly encompases the ones mentioned here, are even better.
(Maybe I should ask it again and see if there's anything I've missed)
posted by Artw at 10:51 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
the list includes Boyhood and I'm Not There, both of which I highly approve of -- genuinely excellent examples of experimental cinema that actually works. We need way more of that.
But where's Tree of Life?
posted by philip-random at 10:56 AM on June 9, 2017
But where's Tree of Life?
posted by philip-random at 10:56 AM on June 9, 2017
Oh God, how did I miss Kill List, Sightseers, and a Field in England?
See all three in one sitting.
posted by maxsparber at 10:56 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
See all three in one sitting.
posted by maxsparber at 10:56 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is by far the cleverest way to get me to get to drill out my monthly article limit, GGWP NYT.
posted by offalark at 10:58 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by offalark at 10:58 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm really trying not to get involved in this nonsense, but... "No Country for Old Men" and "Midnight in Paris".
posted by davebush at 11:00 AM on June 9, 2017
posted by davebush at 11:00 AM on June 9, 2017
Oh, and also:
I'm glad there is such an international focus, and that they were savvy enough to include a few women directors.
It's really weird how everything but US and covertly Canadian films are considered the default and everything else is "foreign" or "international." The fact that a list of the best movies includes some non-American movies should be unremarkable.
And as far as women directors, no, they were clearly not being savvy at all.
There are four movies by women out of 25, and the only iffy one, IMO, is The Gleaners and I, but Agnes Varda is one of the greatest directors of all time, and while that's not her best movie, it's really really good. I don't care all that much for Bigelow, but like I mentioned previously about Linklater, she's good at what she does, so she deserves that spot. Kelly Reichardt and Claire Denis have both earned their spots, too.
But off the top of my head, Lynne Ramsay, Lucretia Martel, and Margarethe von Trotta at least have made better movies in the 21st century than many on this list, and I could make good arguments for many other women directors as well, so they're obviously not intentionally including women directors.
Just to be clear, I'm not claiming you're claiming that, but I just want to make it super-clear that the women directors included on that list aren't there for gender parity. If they'd been shooting for anything like gender parity, they would have done a much, much better job at it.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:03 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm glad there is such an international focus, and that they were savvy enough to include a few women directors.
It's really weird how everything but US and covertly Canadian films are considered the default and everything else is "foreign" or "international." The fact that a list of the best movies includes some non-American movies should be unremarkable.
And as far as women directors, no, they were clearly not being savvy at all.
There are four movies by women out of 25, and the only iffy one, IMO, is The Gleaners and I, but Agnes Varda is one of the greatest directors of all time, and while that's not her best movie, it's really really good. I don't care all that much for Bigelow, but like I mentioned previously about Linklater, she's good at what she does, so she deserves that spot. Kelly Reichardt and Claire Denis have both earned their spots, too.
But off the top of my head, Lynne Ramsay, Lucretia Martel, and Margarethe von Trotta at least have made better movies in the 21st century than many on this list, and I could make good arguments for many other women directors as well, so they're obviously not intentionally including women directors.
Just to be clear, I'm not claiming you're claiming that, but I just want to make it super-clear that the women directors included on that list aren't there for gender parity. If they'd been shooting for anything like gender parity, they would have done a much, much better job at it.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:03 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
How is Amélie not on this list?!?
how much time do you have?
posted by standardasparagus at 11:04 AM on June 9, 2017 [13 favorites]
how much time do you have?
posted by standardasparagus at 11:04 AM on June 9, 2017 [13 favorites]
Could you recommend a few? I live in a house with no real horror fans [...]
The Witch. That absolutely belonged on the list. It seems to be a bit of a polarizing film but I honestly think it's one of the best films, horror or not, that I've ever seen.
posted by treepour at 11:07 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Witch. That absolutely belonged on the list. It seems to be a bit of a polarizing film but I honestly think it's one of the best films, horror or not, that I've ever seen.
posted by treepour at 11:07 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
If they'd been shooting for anything like gender parity, they would have done a much, much better job at it.
Oh, for sure.
posted by maxsparber at 11:09 AM on June 9, 2017
Oh, for sure.
posted by maxsparber at 11:09 AM on June 9, 2017
My list would be different.
posted by mazola at 11:15 AM on June 9, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by mazola at 11:15 AM on June 9, 2017 [16 favorites]
Two thoughts:
1)
I am actually surprised to find four women on this list (Kathryn Bigelow, Claire Denis, Agnès Varda and Kelly Reichardt) as I was only expecting the usual (token) appearance of Kathryn Bigelow.
In this regard, this list is already "better" than my personal watchlist of 2017 (I've been keeping track, like Steven Soderbergh does) of which, I recently noticed, only 10% were made by female directors. (Which is even weirder considering that, unintentionally, all the books I have read in 2017 just happened to be written by women.)
Therefore I try to do better on that front. I actually haven't seen the listed movies by Denis, Varda, and Reichardt, and so I'm thankful for the recommendations. The rest is of course, as always with these lists, highly subjective.
(ON PREVIEW: Will check out the directors mentioned by ernielundquist as well. Thanks!!)
2)
I've been thinking about Edward Yang today, because Critereon recently released Taipei Story on Blu. I adore Yi Yi and have been waiting forever for A Brighter Summer Day to be released in actually watchable quality - so when it happened last year, it was one of my movie highlights. And so I've been thinking how despite everything that's messed up and going wrong with the world currently, it is nice to finally have Edward Yang's movies (those two at least) in great quality.
posted by bigendian at 11:16 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
1)
I am actually surprised to find four women on this list (Kathryn Bigelow, Claire Denis, Agnès Varda and Kelly Reichardt) as I was only expecting the usual (token) appearance of Kathryn Bigelow.
In this regard, this list is already "better" than my personal watchlist of 2017 (I've been keeping track, like Steven Soderbergh does) of which, I recently noticed, only 10% were made by female directors. (Which is even weirder considering that, unintentionally, all the books I have read in 2017 just happened to be written by women.)
Therefore I try to do better on that front. I actually haven't seen the listed movies by Denis, Varda, and Reichardt, and so I'm thankful for the recommendations. The rest is of course, as always with these lists, highly subjective.
(ON PREVIEW: Will check out the directors mentioned by ernielundquist as well. Thanks!!)
2)
I've been thinking about Edward Yang today, because Critereon recently released Taipei Story on Blu. I adore Yi Yi and have been waiting forever for A Brighter Summer Day to be released in actually watchable quality - so when it happened last year, it was one of my movie highlights. And so I've been thinking how despite everything that's messed up and going wrong with the world currently, it is nice to finally have Edward Yang's movies (those two at least) in great quality.
posted by bigendian at 11:16 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Could you recommend a few?
It's not an all-time classic (yet), but in addition to a bunch of the other recommendations, I really enjoyed 2014's The Guest. (dir. Adam Wingard) In the burgeoning subgenre of modern-day John Carpenter pastiches, it's easily in the upper tier. Dan Stevens (of Downton Abbey and Legion fame) does a fantastic job in the title role.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:17 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's not an all-time classic (yet), but in addition to a bunch of the other recommendations, I really enjoyed 2014's The Guest. (dir. Adam Wingard) In the burgeoning subgenre of modern-day John Carpenter pastiches, it's easily in the upper tier. Dan Stevens (of Downton Abbey and Legion fame) does a fantastic job in the title role.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:17 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh ffs why did they have to be all contrarian
This is a hilarious complaint nestled in this thread
posted by beerperson at 11:18 AM on June 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
This is a hilarious complaint nestled in this thread
posted by beerperson at 11:18 AM on June 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
My father-in-law's name is Roland Turner. He works in law enforcement in New Jersey.
The name of the John Goodman character in Llewyn Davis makes me wonder if the Coens or any of their associates got pulled over in New Jersey.
Also, I really want a Coen Brothers adaptation of The Heebie Jeebies at CBGB yesterday. With Oscar Isaac as Richard Hell and Adam Driver as Joey Ramone.
posted by pxe2000 at 11:22 AM on June 9, 2017
The name of the John Goodman character in Llewyn Davis makes me wonder if the Coens or any of their associates got pulled over in New Jersey.
Also, I really want a Coen Brothers adaptation of The Heebie Jeebies at CBGB yesterday. With Oscar Isaac as Richard Hell and Adam Driver as Joey Ramone.
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posted by pxe2000 at 11:22 AM on June 9, 2017
There is no Computer Chess on this list therefore it is complete garbage
posted by Automocar at 11:24 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Automocar at 11:24 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also, I really want a Coen Brothers adaptation of The Heebie Jeebies at CBGB yesterday. With Oscar Isaac as Richard Hell and Adam Driver as Joey Ramone.
Well, that would be consistent with their longstanding habit of casting non-Jews as Jews.
(But for Serious Man.)
posted by maxsparber at 11:24 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well, that would be consistent with their longstanding habit of casting non-Jews as Jews.
(But for Serious Man.)
posted by maxsparber at 11:24 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've been a big Coen Brothers fan since I saw Blood Simple in the theater when it was released, and Inside Llewyn Davis was their first movie I not only didn't watch, but had no interest in seeing.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
My list would also be different (no Inland Empire?!) but this list turned me on to some films that weren't on my radar (like touch of sin and white material) that are now on my official must-watch list, so that's nice.
posted by dis_integration at 11:29 AM on June 9, 2017
posted by dis_integration at 11:29 AM on June 9, 2017
I loved Inside Llewyn Davis. Is it their best film since 2000?
Obviously not. That would be No Country for Old Men.
posted by maxsparber at 11:29 AM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
Obviously not. That would be No Country for Old Men.
posted by maxsparber at 11:29 AM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
it does seem the work of Michael Haneke was somehow overlooked
There is a frères Dardenne in there, though; they're the answer to the question, "How many Belgians does it take to make a Michael Haneke film?"
posted by Sys Rq at 11:33 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
There is a frères Dardenne in there, though; they're the answer to the question, "How many Belgians does it take to make a Michael Haneke film?"
posted by Sys Rq at 11:33 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
One of the unique things film is able to do is to play with the interaction and venn-like overlap between actor and character in a variety of ways -- think of, e.g., Bruce Willis playing himself opposite a character trying to pass as Julia Roberts who is actually played by Julia Roberts in Ocean's 12, or even the dumb thing where Arnold Schwarzenegger says 'I'll be back' in like half of his post-Terminator movies. Hitchcock liked doing this, for example casting Jimmy Stewart as a creep in Rear Window and Vertigo to take advantage of his aw-shucks popular persona.
Some more recent films have begun playing with this interaction in more outre ways -- Todd Solondz's 1995 Palindromes features a single main character (a 13-yr-old girl named Aviva) who, over the course of the film, is portrayed by eight different actors of different ages, ethnicities, and genders. And two of the films on this list -- I'm Not There and Three Times explore this overlap.
Let's talk about stuff like that instead of predictable bitching about an internet list being in the wrong order.
posted by beerperson at 11:39 AM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
Some more recent films have begun playing with this interaction in more outre ways -- Todd Solondz's 1995 Palindromes features a single main character (a 13-yr-old girl named Aviva) who, over the course of the film, is portrayed by eight different actors of different ages, ethnicities, and genders. And two of the films on this list -- I'm Not There and Three Times explore this overlap.
Let's talk about stuff like that instead of predictable bitching about an internet list being in the wrong order.
posted by beerperson at 11:39 AM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
I'm not really a movie connoisseur, but There Will be Blood and No Country for Old Men are maybe top 25 movies of all frickin' time so to only see one on this list is puzzling. And, if a director(s) make more than one superb movie in 15 years I don't see why only one is allowed on the list. Give the Coen Bros their due.
"Her" gets a mention but I thought it really should be fully on the list, I think it will have legs for many decades.
Under the Skin should probably be on this list and, maybe it's just me, but Carol is very under-rated. I think these three speak to our times much more than many of the others (40 year old virgin? Million Dollar Baby? weak choices).
posted by Rumple at 11:41 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
"Her" gets a mention but I thought it really should be fully on the list, I think it will have legs for many decades.
Under the Skin should probably be on this list and, maybe it's just me, but Carol is very under-rated. I think these three speak to our times much more than many of the others (40 year old virgin? Million Dollar Baby? weak choices).
posted by Rumple at 11:41 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I appreciate the method they used here, even if not so much the end choices. Since it's pretty obvious that any alleged ranking of "best" movies for an extended period of time is going to be too arbitrary to have any real value as a hierarchy of merit, the best approach is to choose a more representative sample of films that highlight the vast range of excellence in filmmaking. And that's what it appears they attempted to do here. With only 25 films, of course, it is still far too pared down to be entirely successful even in that attempt, but I will applaud their thoughtfulness in at least trying to go that route instead of the more usual selections of well known titles with a couple outliers for spice.
That said, it really isn't a list I'd sign off on personally, with only, perhaps one or two choices that I find personally satisfactory. But most of the choices have enough meaningful backing to them, as measured by serious arguments put forth in their support in film circles, to supply a useful list for investigation for those who are interested in such things. (40 Year Old Virgin and Million Dollar Baby are still a bit surprising even so.)
posted by gusottertrout at 11:42 AM on June 9, 2017
That said, it really isn't a list I'd sign off on personally, with only, perhaps one or two choices that I find personally satisfactory. But most of the choices have enough meaningful backing to them, as measured by serious arguments put forth in their support in film circles, to supply a useful list for investigation for those who are interested in such things. (40 Year Old Virgin and Million Dollar Baby are still a bit surprising even so.)
posted by gusottertrout at 11:42 AM on June 9, 2017
Seconding that Children of Men should be on the list... in the top 10.
Also, Crash is truly fucking awful.
posted by defenestration at 11:42 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also, Crash is truly fucking awful.
posted by defenestration at 11:42 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Let's talk about stuff like that instead of predictable bitching about an internet list being in the wrong order.
Them's fightin' words!
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Them's fightin' words!
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
At the very least I learned there's a lot of people with questionable taste on this site. That's not nothing!
posted by naju at 11:49 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by naju at 11:49 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Some more recent films have begun playing with this interaction
Boy did I hate it in Oceans 12, but I liked Robin Wright playing Robin Wright in The Congress.
posted by fleacircus at 11:49 AM on June 9, 2017
Boy did I hate it in Oceans 12, but I liked Robin Wright playing Robin Wright in The Congress.
posted by fleacircus at 11:49 AM on June 9, 2017
no wes anderson???
posted by shockingbluamp at 11:50 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by shockingbluamp at 11:50 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Let's talk about stuff like that instead of predictable bitching about an internet list being in the wrong order.
Okay but someone upthread said Memento should be on this list and clearly they've taken leave of their senses.
One of the unique things film is able to do is to play with the interaction and venn-like overlap between actor and character in a variety of ways
Neil Patrick Harris playing himself in the Harold and Kumar movies is one of the funniest instances of this. Also, Bill Murray's cameo in Zombieland.
posted by zarq at 11:50 AM on June 9, 2017
Okay but someone upthread said Memento should be on this list and clearly they've taken leave of their senses.
One of the unique things film is able to do is to play with the interaction and venn-like overlap between actor and character in a variety of ways
Neil Patrick Harris playing himself in the Harold and Kumar movies is one of the funniest instances of this. Also, Bill Murray's cameo in Zombieland.
posted by zarq at 11:50 AM on June 9, 2017
I just wonder what this (and others!) list would look like if there was another condition added in: at the date of the release, it has to arguably be the best movie of the director.
The rest, don't particularly care, it's a movie list. I take notice if there something there I kinda want to watch, but that's it.
posted by lmfsilva at 11:55 AM on June 9, 2017
The rest, don't particularly care, it's a movie list. I take notice if there something there I kinda want to watch, but that's it.
posted by lmfsilva at 11:55 AM on June 9, 2017
no wes anderson???
And god bless them for that
posted by Automocar at 12:05 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
And god bless them for that
posted by Automocar at 12:05 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
Daniel Day-Lewis is a horrible over-actor who ruins otherwise good movies.
There, I said it.
posted by rocket88 at 12:17 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
There, I said it.
posted by rocket88 at 12:17 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Cronenberg Crash was from 1996 making it too old for this list. Still would have been more appropriate than the 40 Year Old Virgin.
posted by bendy at 12:27 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bendy at 12:27 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Here's my top 50 for horror during the same span. I put my energy into the roster than the order though:
Let the Right One In
Get Out
The Cabin in the Woods
The Babadook
The Descent
Pontypool
It Follows
Triangle
Frailty
The Woman
The Host
Green Room
28 Days Later
Train to Busan
Absentia
Ginger Snaps
The Witch
A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night
10 Cloverfield Lane
John Dies at the End
[REC]
The Innkeepers
Teeth
The Devil's Backbone
The Mist
Dawn of the Dead
Goodnight Mommy
Paranormal Activity
Troll Hunter
Slither
Let Us Prey
Dead Girl
Housebound
The Strangers
Session 9
You're Next
Shaun of the Dead
May
The Others
Dog Soldiers
Excision
The Loved Ones
The Midnight Meat Train
Stake Land
The Last Exorcism
The Orphanage
Kill List
Martyrs
Tucker and Dale vs. Evil
Deathgasm
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:34 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
Let the Right One In
Get Out
The Cabin in the Woods
The Babadook
The Descent
Pontypool
It Follows
Triangle
Frailty
The Woman
The Host
Green Room
28 Days Later
Train to Busan
Absentia
Ginger Snaps
The Witch
A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night
10 Cloverfield Lane
John Dies at the End
[REC]
The Innkeepers
Teeth
The Devil's Backbone
The Mist
Dawn of the Dead
Goodnight Mommy
Paranormal Activity
Troll Hunter
Slither
Let Us Prey
Dead Girl
Housebound
The Strangers
Session 9
You're Next
Shaun of the Dead
May
The Others
Dog Soldiers
Excision
The Loved Ones
The Midnight Meat Train
Stake Land
The Last Exorcism
The Orphanage
Kill List
Martyrs
Tucker and Dale vs. Evil
Deathgasm
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:34 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
no wes anderson???
And god bless them for that
He has certainly worn out his whimsical welcome with his last few outings. I have a soft spot for Steve Zissou since it manages to balance absurdity and pathos extremely well and is way lighter on the preciousness and lionization-of-privileged-childhood that suffuses almost every other film he's done.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:15 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
And god bless them for that
He has certainly worn out his whimsical welcome with his last few outings. I have a soft spot for Steve Zissou since it manages to balance absurdity and pathos extremely well and is way lighter on the preciousness and lionization-of-privileged-childhood that suffuses almost every other film he's done.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:15 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
There's a lot of stuff on this list I haven't seen, so I appreciate it for that.
posted by codacorolla at 1:17 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 1:17 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
He has certainly worn out his whimsical welcome with his last few outings.
Many of us found The Grand Budapest Hotel to be a delight.
posted by maxsparber at 1:21 PM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
Many of us found The Grand Budapest Hotel to be a delight.
posted by maxsparber at 1:21 PM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
My list would be different.
It's funny. I really didn't like a lot of what NYT suggested here.
posted by ovvl at 1:23 PM on June 9, 2017
It's funny. I really didn't like a lot of what NYT suggested here.
posted by ovvl at 1:23 PM on June 9, 2017
Life is short. We should all love and enjoy the hell out of everything we possibly can. If Wes Anderson movies work for you, I'm glad of it. But this quip:
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:26 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
preciousness and lionization-of-privileged-childhood...that has me looking for a bullseye emoji to reply with, because that is spot-on why Anderson's stuff wore thin for me.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:26 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Mooonrise Kingdom's main character, Sam Shakusky, is a troubled foster child.
Grand Budapest's main character and narrator is Zero, a presumably Muslim refugee, and the film is inspired by the writing of Stefan Zweig, a Viennese Jew who committed suicide as a response to the rise of Nazism.
I think you'll find he has recently moved beyond the privileged childhood bit.
posted by maxsparber at 1:32 PM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
Grand Budapest's main character and narrator is Zero, a presumably Muslim refugee, and the film is inspired by the writing of Stefan Zweig, a Viennese Jew who committed suicide as a response to the rise of Nazism.
I think you'll find he has recently moved beyond the privileged childhood bit.
posted by maxsparber at 1:32 PM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
Weird thing about The Grand Budapest Hotel is it seems like it should be the lightest of Anderson fluff, and yet on rewatching it recently it turned out to have real teeth. I guess it took a fascist coup going on to figure that out.
posted by Artw at 1:35 PM on June 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:35 PM on June 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'll say this, though: maxsparber and ArtW are two of the very most simpatico MeFites for me when it comes to opinions about movies. So if you both say I'm wrong, I might give Anderson another shot. If I'm being honest I hadn't tried Budapest Hotel yet.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:38 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:38 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I hope that people understand that when we quibble about what's not on here, we're not actually foolish enough to think there was a potential list that would work for everyone.
It's just a way of talking passionately about our own favorite films.
With that, I'll now bang my first on the bartop and complain that this list is appallingly, completely 100% Ken Loach-free.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:41 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's just a way of talking passionately about our own favorite films.
With that, I'll now bang my first on the bartop and complain that this list is appallingly, completely 100% Ken Loach-free.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:41 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Weird thing about The Grand Budapest Hotel is it seems like it should be the lightest of Anderson fluff
There is a moment when Monsieur Gustave H. finds out Zero's background and just freezes. He's been mean to him and he just stops and sincerely, profoundly apologizes.
It's a scene from a world better than this one. One in which understanding that someone is a refugee, and what this means, makes you be kinder to them.
posted by maxsparber at 1:46 PM on June 9, 2017 [14 favorites]
There is a moment when Monsieur Gustave H. finds out Zero's background and just freezes. He's been mean to him and he just stops and sincerely, profoundly apologizes.
It's a scene from a world better than this one. One in which understanding that someone is a refugee, and what this means, makes you be kinder to them.
posted by maxsparber at 1:46 PM on June 9, 2017 [14 favorites]
The intent of these types of one-off lists is to get clicks. There's nothing authoritative about them at all. They're designed to make people argue about it, because when people argue about your list on the internet, they click on it repeatedly.
And there's really nothing wrong with that. People like to argue, and they like to talk about whatever media the list is ranking.
It's not a very substantive topic, though, really. The lists aren't usually very clear about what they're basing their rankings on, so it's all kind of up for debate. People will argue about the movies they like and the movies they think are well made (which aren't always the same thing), and point out all the things they think should or should not be on the list based on whichever criteria they're assuming. Because it's not about the criteria, or the art of filmmaking, or about popular appeal. It's about the arguments, because arguments get clicks.
For anyone who wants a more rigorous sort of list, you could look at the Sight and Sound polls for critic consensus, and for audience consensus, there's the box office standings and IMDB and things like that.
posted by ernielundquist at 1:54 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
And there's really nothing wrong with that. People like to argue, and they like to talk about whatever media the list is ranking.
It's not a very substantive topic, though, really. The lists aren't usually very clear about what they're basing their rankings on, so it's all kind of up for debate. People will argue about the movies they like and the movies they think are well made (which aren't always the same thing), and point out all the things they think should or should not be on the list based on whichever criteria they're assuming. Because it's not about the criteria, or the art of filmmaking, or about popular appeal. It's about the arguments, because arguments get clicks.
For anyone who wants a more rigorous sort of list, you could look at the Sight and Sound polls for critic consensus, and for audience consensus, there's the box office standings and IMDB and things like that.
posted by ernielundquist at 1:54 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I only have two strong complaints:
1. Million Dollar Baby was a terrible film and I can't believe it is on this list at all, let alone so high up. There is a particular scene where her country bumpkin family comes to her hospital bed that I found so ridiculous, I considered leaving the theater for the first time in my life.
2. The dilemma about what Coen brothers film to pick should have clearly been resolved in favor of A Serious Man, their best film.
posted by Falconetti at 2:31 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
1. Million Dollar Baby was a terrible film and I can't believe it is on this list at all, let alone so high up. There is a particular scene where her country bumpkin family comes to her hospital bed that I found so ridiculous, I considered leaving the theater for the first time in my life.
2. The dilemma about what Coen brothers film to pick should have clearly been resolved in favor of A Serious Man, their best film.
posted by Falconetti at 2:31 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
Some I might add:
Arrival
Love and Mercy
Ida
Her
Locke
Upstream Color
Take Shelter
Zodiac
Cache
28 Days Later
posted by octothorpe at 2:48 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Arrival
Love and Mercy
Ida
Her
Locke
Upstream Color
Take Shelter
Zodiac
Cache
28 Days Later
posted by octothorpe at 2:48 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I almost shut the window when Scott handwaved away Clint Eastwood's support of Trump as "just his way of passing the time and letting off steam"--dude--but I'm almost glad that I didn't, just to see them indulge their infatuation with the rhetorical maneuver of arguing for the necessary inclusion of a particular director, picking the movie of theirs that you wouldn't have picked, congratulating themselves on their daring, then doing it again and again. If they'd really wanted to be daring, or at least properly clickbaity, they could have thrown in Captain America: The Winter Soldier in place of one of the usual suspects and watched the hatred flow through the NYT's readership.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:52 PM on June 9, 2017
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:52 PM on June 9, 2017
For those who don't know: They Shoot Pictures, Don't They? is your one-stop shop for film meta-list action.
From the FFP: the one I find most overrated is There Will Be Blood; the one I would most like to add is Upstream Color; and the one I've seen that people might not already know is awesome is Yi Yi.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 2:54 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
From the FFP: the one I find most overrated is There Will Be Blood; the one I would most like to add is Upstream Color; and the one I've seen that people might not already know is awesome is Yi Yi.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 2:54 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yay for Yi Yi! We lost Edward Yang far too soon. :'(
posted by tully_monster at 3:05 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by tully_monster at 3:05 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hmmm. Of this list, I've only seen the kids' movies and Eternal Sunshine of Fiction-Reality Overlap
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 3:09 PM on June 9, 2017
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 3:09 PM on June 9, 2017
Dog Soldiers
Both kafkaesque and Dirt OldTown have recommended this (and I third!), but I also want to recommend a similar "werewolves in the British countryside" movie: the little known Howl. It's also got the wonderful Shauna MacDonald who starred in The Descent (which everyone should see).
posted by Panjandrum at 5:58 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Both kafkaesque and Dirt OldTown have recommended this (and I third!), but I also want to recommend a similar "werewolves in the British countryside" movie: the little known Howl. It's also got the wonderful Shauna MacDonald who starred in The Descent (which everyone should see).
posted by Panjandrum at 5:58 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh, and (briefly) Sean Pertwee, who was in Dog Soldiers!
posted by Panjandrum at 6:13 PM on June 9, 2017
posted by Panjandrum at 6:13 PM on June 9, 2017
Best of lists are subjective, and I haven't been watching enough films lately. But these films were particularly memorable and in their own way unique and amazing -
Pan's Labyrinth (that is a major oversight on the OP list IMO)
Children of Men
The Edukators
Breakfast on Pluto
The Sea Inside
Love Exposure
Marwencol
Stories We Tell
Bronson
Hunger
Yes
Kontroll
The Diving Bell and the Butterfly
A Prophet
The Hidden Face
City of God
What We Do in the Shadows
Two Days One Night
The Salt of the Earth
Paolo Sorrentino's entire ouvre (I love The Consequences of Love, Le Grande Belezza, Il Divo most)
Wes Anderson's entire ouvre (pick your preference, I guess I'll go with Grand Budapest just for Ralph Feinne's performance)
posted by fellorwaspushed at 6:17 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Pan's Labyrinth (that is a major oversight on the OP list IMO)
Children of Men
The Edukators
Breakfast on Pluto
The Sea Inside
Love Exposure
Marwencol
Stories We Tell
Bronson
Hunger
Yes
Kontroll
The Diving Bell and the Butterfly
A Prophet
The Hidden Face
City of God
What We Do in the Shadows
Two Days One Night
The Salt of the Earth
Paolo Sorrentino's entire ouvre (I love The Consequences of Love, Le Grande Belezza, Il Divo most)
Wes Anderson's entire ouvre (pick your preference, I guess I'll go with Grand Budapest just for Ralph Feinne's performance)
posted by fellorwaspushed at 6:17 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Where's "Mulholland Drive?" Where's "Crouching Tiger?" Where's "Birdman?"
With "Crash," over on a list of overhyped and unimpressive movies?
I've only seen about half of the films on the list, and loved all of those except for the 40 Year Old Virgin which wasn't very funny and doesn't belong on the list. There are a few on the list that you couldn't pay me to see (like any movie about Bob Dylan, ever, or a Pixar movie, ugh), and a bunch of others that I hadn't heard of or haven't had the opportunity to see yet, but would very much like to.
My list would have included Head On, Winters Bone, and Spring Breakers,"along with some others they didn't mention, but that's just getting into nuances of taste rather than "you are wrong!" territory. For example, I liked Hurt Locker, but I would pick Black Hawk Down before it, and I'd pick Carlos over Munich, but in each case their choices are good.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:47 PM on June 9, 2017
With "Crash," over on a list of overhyped and unimpressive movies?
I've only seen about half of the films on the list, and loved all of those except for the 40 Year Old Virgin which wasn't very funny and doesn't belong on the list. There are a few on the list that you couldn't pay me to see (like any movie about Bob Dylan, ever, or a Pixar movie, ugh), and a bunch of others that I hadn't heard of or haven't had the opportunity to see yet, but would very much like to.
My list would have included Head On, Winters Bone, and Spring Breakers,"along with some others they didn't mention, but that's just getting into nuances of taste rather than "you are wrong!" territory. For example, I liked Hurt Locker, but I would pick Black Hawk Down before it, and I'd pick Carlos over Munich, but in each case their choices are good.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:47 PM on June 9, 2017
There is no way that Idiocracy doesn't belong in the top (any number).
posted by rhizome at 6:55 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 6:55 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I didn't much agree with this list, but I'm not incensed or anything. I wanted to mention a movie I really liked, Mike Leigh's "Happy go Lucky" (2008).
posted by acrasis at 7:05 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by acrasis at 7:05 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I concur with the earlier posters' puzzlement over the lack of In the Mood for Love--it's both universally adored and exactly the type of film lists like these usually include.
I'm always glad to see Yi Yi, or any Edward Yang, get the recognition it deserves, as his stuff has a special place in my heart. I saw Yi Yi for the first time around the time he died, and it instantly got me hooked on the so-called New Taiwanese Cinema. For part of my undergrad capstone project (for a degree in Chinese literature) I ended up tracking down a crappy copy of one of his early films The Terrorizers (Kongbu Fenzi) and doing a transcription+translation+subtitling of it. Nothing immerses you in a film quite like transcribing every. single. word. of it, and luckily even Yang's lesser works are worth getting lost in.
posted by mrjackalope at 7:44 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm always glad to see Yi Yi, or any Edward Yang, get the recognition it deserves, as his stuff has a special place in my heart. I saw Yi Yi for the first time around the time he died, and it instantly got me hooked on the so-called New Taiwanese Cinema. For part of my undergrad capstone project (for a degree in Chinese literature) I ended up tracking down a crappy copy of one of his early films The Terrorizers (Kongbu Fenzi) and doing a transcription+translation+subtitling of it. Nothing immerses you in a film quite like transcribing every. single. word. of it, and luckily even Yang's lesser works are worth getting lost in.
posted by mrjackalope at 7:44 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I love metafilter and the commenters there in, but children of men? Really? Like this list isn't necessarily something I'd endorse, but I'd take anything there before CoM like. More proof it takes all types I guess, because wow I'm shocked to see people recommending that in the top 25.
posted by Carillon at 8:40 PM on June 9, 2017
posted by Carillon at 8:40 PM on June 9, 2017
One rather under-rated film is 'The Host' (2006) which starts off like a parody of a monster movie but turns into something more subtle and interesting.
adding to the list:
Man Without A Past
Dogville
Melancholia
The Assassination of Jesse James...
The Great Gatsby
(I think I'm the only person I know who thought that Baz's The Great Gatsby was genius)
posted by ovvl at 9:06 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
adding to the list:
Man Without A Past
Dogville
Melancholia
The Assassination of Jesse James...
The Great Gatsby
(I think I'm the only person I know who thought that Baz's The Great Gatsby was genius)
posted by ovvl at 9:06 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
There is no way that Idiocracy doesn't belong in the top (any number).Top racist eugenics-supporting elitist movie.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:23 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I suspect In the Mood for Love was left off in the end due to the decision to go with Yi Yi, A Touch of Sin, and Three Times in part due to Hsiao-Hsien Hou and Zhangke Jia maintaining a stronger body of work over the years than Kar-Wai Wong and Edward Yang's body of work still being "discovered" in the west with its impressive cumulative effect. That isn't to say In the Mood for Love isn't better than some of the movies they did choose, but that's true of many films left off the list, just that it might have seemed an over representation of that area of filmmaking.
From appearances, they seemed intent on trying to convey a broad swath of movie appreciation in a single list but one focused on their readership, so with a large part of the focus being on movies readers would be aware of to make the totality of it palatable and get it shared. A list devoted entirely to movies that are great but largely unknown to the average US viewer doesn't get the same sort of attention. Within their US selections they went for a relatively diverse group of perspectives, from old school auteurism represented by Eastwood, to studio driven product represented by Pixar, to filmmakers working at different margins of the studio system high and low.
As I mentioned before, it isn't a list I'd endorse, but it's at least broader than the most consensus style lists I've seen where fame carries even a stronger weighting due to commonality of viewing more than merit. There is some value in an even slightly more idiosyncratic take when it makes some effort to be more inclusive. (Again, only relatively speaking. One could easily make a list that includes no US films and not be any more wrong than this, and just as likely "righter" depending on how one does the measuring.)
Personally, I would have probably included a Ming-liang Tsai film, What Time is It There?, Goodbye Dragon Inn, or The Wayward Cloud most likely since Tsai was a huge force at the start of the century. Jiayin Liu's Oxhide II would definitely have made the cut as its unique and amazing, and Apichatpong Weerasethakul's Syndromes and a Century would top my list being as great as anything I've ever seen. (Other Apichatpong films would be fine too, but Syndromes is the one I find most impressive.)
I'd definitely have an Assayas movie, though perhaps not Summer Hours, as great as it is since I think Clean and demonlover are perhaps more daring and relevant, with Summer Hours being a tiny bit too easy for art lovers to nod their heads at approvingly in comparison. Tarr's Werckmeister Harmonies would be on my list, but so would a number of less critically acclaimed movies, like Jane Campion's In the Cut, which I've felt has been mistakenly neglected due to being misunderstood from when it came out. Lynne Ramsey'sMovern Callar is another likely candidate, maybe Breillat'sFat Girl too. Maddin's Saddest Music in the World might get a nod, a Johnnie To film would be hard to pass by, Mad Detective perhaps, I think Jim Finn's Interkosmos is a fantastic low budget sci-fi alt history effort that really works for me and which I perhaps oversell just due to its lack of notice, Spielberg/Kubrick's AI is my choice for his best work and an impressive and unexpected match of talents and budget for Hollywood.
But then once you start narrowing it down, dozens of other films start pressing their cases as equally impressive, Peter Watkins La Commune, Lisandro Alonso's La Libertad, Mani Ratnam's A Peck on the Cheek, Luca Guadagnino's I am Love, Shunji Iwai's All About Lily Chou-Chou, Pablo Larain's Jackie. Then the names start coming in a flood, movies by Cronenberg, Haynes, Ruiz, Costa, Koreeda, Kurosawa, Kon, Rivette, Godard, Rohmer, Porumboiu, Almodovar, Ade, Reichhardt, Kiarostami, Panahi, Korine, Roy Andersson, Wes Anderson, and on and on. Oh, and what about those movies I loved that aren't necessarily by "master filmmakers" A Town Called Panic, L'iceberg, Kung Fu Hustle, or Big Man Japan, and then there's the US movies both well known and not, like perhaps Ballast or Beeswax, which could use more attention....
The venture ultimately becomes largely pointless and overwhelming to anyone who has seen a lot and tries to capture everything meaningful. I'm not sure what the best choice would be for making one of these lists as it will always disappoint any readers and it can't possibly be accurate even to one's own perspective. It is, as ernielundquist rightly suggested a way to drive clicks and spark arguments. It has some value in bringing new titles or directors into the spotlight and for sometimes normalizing talk of merit for filmmakers of films outside the mainstream, but other than that its meaning is severely limited.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:57 PM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
From appearances, they seemed intent on trying to convey a broad swath of movie appreciation in a single list but one focused on their readership, so with a large part of the focus being on movies readers would be aware of to make the totality of it palatable and get it shared. A list devoted entirely to movies that are great but largely unknown to the average US viewer doesn't get the same sort of attention. Within their US selections they went for a relatively diverse group of perspectives, from old school auteurism represented by Eastwood, to studio driven product represented by Pixar, to filmmakers working at different margins of the studio system high and low.
As I mentioned before, it isn't a list I'd endorse, but it's at least broader than the most consensus style lists I've seen where fame carries even a stronger weighting due to commonality of viewing more than merit. There is some value in an even slightly more idiosyncratic take when it makes some effort to be more inclusive. (Again, only relatively speaking. One could easily make a list that includes no US films and not be any more wrong than this, and just as likely "righter" depending on how one does the measuring.)
Personally, I would have probably included a Ming-liang Tsai film, What Time is It There?, Goodbye Dragon Inn, or The Wayward Cloud most likely since Tsai was a huge force at the start of the century. Jiayin Liu's Oxhide II would definitely have made the cut as its unique and amazing, and Apichatpong Weerasethakul's Syndromes and a Century would top my list being as great as anything I've ever seen. (Other Apichatpong films would be fine too, but Syndromes is the one I find most impressive.)
I'd definitely have an Assayas movie, though perhaps not Summer Hours, as great as it is since I think Clean and demonlover are perhaps more daring and relevant, with Summer Hours being a tiny bit too easy for art lovers to nod their heads at approvingly in comparison. Tarr's Werckmeister Harmonies would be on my list, but so would a number of less critically acclaimed movies, like Jane Campion's In the Cut, which I've felt has been mistakenly neglected due to being misunderstood from when it came out. Lynne Ramsey'sMovern Callar is another likely candidate, maybe Breillat'sFat Girl too. Maddin's Saddest Music in the World might get a nod, a Johnnie To film would be hard to pass by, Mad Detective perhaps, I think Jim Finn's Interkosmos is a fantastic low budget sci-fi alt history effort that really works for me and which I perhaps oversell just due to its lack of notice, Spielberg/Kubrick's AI is my choice for his best work and an impressive and unexpected match of talents and budget for Hollywood.
But then once you start narrowing it down, dozens of other films start pressing their cases as equally impressive, Peter Watkins La Commune, Lisandro Alonso's La Libertad, Mani Ratnam's A Peck on the Cheek, Luca Guadagnino's I am Love, Shunji Iwai's All About Lily Chou-Chou, Pablo Larain's Jackie. Then the names start coming in a flood, movies by Cronenberg, Haynes, Ruiz, Costa, Koreeda, Kurosawa, Kon, Rivette, Godard, Rohmer, Porumboiu, Almodovar, Ade, Reichhardt, Kiarostami, Panahi, Korine, Roy Andersson, Wes Anderson, and on and on. Oh, and what about those movies I loved that aren't necessarily by "master filmmakers" A Town Called Panic, L'iceberg, Kung Fu Hustle, or Big Man Japan, and then there's the US movies both well known and not, like perhaps Ballast or Beeswax, which could use more attention....
The venture ultimately becomes largely pointless and overwhelming to anyone who has seen a lot and tries to capture everything meaningful. I'm not sure what the best choice would be for making one of these lists as it will always disappoint any readers and it can't possibly be accurate even to one's own perspective. It is, as ernielundquist rightly suggested a way to drive clicks and spark arguments. It has some value in bringing new titles or directors into the spotlight and for sometimes normalizing talk of merit for filmmakers of films outside the mainstream, but other than that its meaning is severely limited.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:57 PM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
But it's fun!
Here's a few more for consideration: Frozen River, Revanche, Force Majeure, all three Lord of the Rings movies, and Superbad (would pick that over 40 Year Old Virgin any day)
posted by bokinney at 12:55 AM on June 10, 2017
Here's a few more for consideration: Frozen River, Revanche, Force Majeure, all three Lord of the Rings movies, and Superbad (would pick that over 40 Year Old Virgin any day)
posted by bokinney at 12:55 AM on June 10, 2017
I strongly agree with the inclusion of Munich. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I think it's Spielberg's best film. I can't name another spy thriller as tense and intense as that one.
Some of my other favorites that I haven't seen mentioned: The Fall, Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, Southland Tales, The Hunter, The Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus, Elite Squad, In the Cut, Pulse, Young Adult.
It is a great time for horror, but I also think there's been a wealth of outstanding comedies. I can't even pick just one to add to my list of additions--at the very least, I would want to stuff almost all the Stephen Chow and David Wain-written films in there.
posted by heatvision at 4:00 AM on June 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
Some of my other favorites that I haven't seen mentioned: The Fall, Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, Southland Tales, The Hunter, The Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus, Elite Squad, In the Cut, Pulse, Young Adult.
It is a great time for horror, but I also think there's been a wealth of outstanding comedies. I can't even pick just one to add to my list of additions--at the very least, I would want to stuff almost all the Stephen Chow and David Wain-written films in there.
posted by heatvision at 4:00 AM on June 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
Lynne Ramsey'sMovern Callar is another likely candidate, maybe Breillat'sFat Girl too.
Both of those are at the top of my personal list.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:44 AM on June 10, 2017
Both of those are at the top of my personal list.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:44 AM on June 10, 2017
I would like more people to see Pranzo di Ferragosto, Kiseki and Kapringen, among others.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:36 AM on June 10, 2017
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:36 AM on June 10, 2017
There are too many good movies to be able to condense them into a list of 25.
I love 'Inside Llewyn Davis', but I love pretty much every Coen Bros movie. The thing I love the best about it is that Oscar Isaac is such a gorgeous looking fellow and yet he becomes less attractive throughout the movie as you discover what a fuckup he is. It's done so subtly. And he's an incredible musician but as seen through the eyes of F. Murray Abraham's character he's just .. not enough. It's so damn good. Which takes nothing away from the brilliance of their other movies.
One of my fears is having to choose things that I love over other things that I love. 25 is nowhere near enough!
posted by h00py at 8:10 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
I love 'Inside Llewyn Davis', but I love pretty much every Coen Bros movie. The thing I love the best about it is that Oscar Isaac is such a gorgeous looking fellow and yet he becomes less attractive throughout the movie as you discover what a fuckup he is. It's done so subtly. And he's an incredible musician but as seen through the eyes of F. Murray Abraham's character he's just .. not enough. It's so damn good. Which takes nothing away from the brilliance of their other movies.
One of my fears is having to choose things that I love over other things that I love. 25 is nowhere near enough!
posted by h00py at 8:10 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Top racist eugenics-supporting elitist movie.
Its greatness lies in its prescience, that's all.
posted by rhizome at 9:26 AM on June 10, 2017
Its greatness lies in its prescience, that's all.
posted by rhizome at 9:26 AM on June 10, 2017
Top racist eugenics-supporting elitist movie.
In no way does it support eugenics (it doesn't say certain people shouldn't breed, it just points out that they do disproportionately; one solution is offered, and it ain't eugenics), in no way is it racist (I don't even know where you're pulling that from), and as far as elitism goes, if you have an objection to people who know what they're talking about talking about what they know, well, enjoy your idiocracy. The sole message of Idiocracy is simple: EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT. If that is not apparent to you, question your own.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:53 AM on June 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
In no way does it support eugenics (it doesn't say certain people shouldn't breed, it just points out that they do disproportionately; one solution is offered, and it ain't eugenics), in no way is it racist (I don't even know where you're pulling that from), and as far as elitism goes, if you have an objection to people who know what they're talking about talking about what they know, well, enjoy your idiocracy. The sole message of Idiocracy is simple: EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT. If that is not apparent to you, question your own.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:53 AM on June 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
As a widely read American periodical they went with safe selections to appease their readership which is perfectly acceptable as an approach but misses some of the key filmic storytelling masterpieces that will be discussed in classes and coffee shops for decades to come.
I would have definitely included Situation Dark, Korwin Channeux's metaphysical meditation on love, loss, and espionage which was the sleeper favorite of 2006.
In the realm of comedies Yang Chi Xiao's hilarious allegory for censorship Cao Ni Ma, is a huge miss. This is a film that transcended its genre more than any other I can think since Orius Stockdale’s Genevieve’s Myopia.
Notably missing from this list are all the great documentaries of which there are too many to list. Very few works have been able to channel and communicate the essence of the artistic process like Dmitry Salazar's La Mère de Merde. I’m sure that everyone who saw Bill Magrill’s latest, Nutmeat, came away as inspired and moved as I was. He continues to stake his claim as one of this centuries greatest with his unflinching look at three generations of a close knit family of pistachio farmers.
posted by euphorb at 11:52 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
I would have definitely included Situation Dark, Korwin Channeux's metaphysical meditation on love, loss, and espionage which was the sleeper favorite of 2006.
In the realm of comedies Yang Chi Xiao's hilarious allegory for censorship Cao Ni Ma, is a huge miss. This is a film that transcended its genre more than any other I can think since Orius Stockdale’s Genevieve’s Myopia.
Notably missing from this list are all the great documentaries of which there are too many to list. Very few works have been able to channel and communicate the essence of the artistic process like Dmitry Salazar's La Mère de Merde. I’m sure that everyone who saw Bill Magrill’s latest, Nutmeat, came away as inspired and moved as I was. He continues to stake his claim as one of this centuries greatest with his unflinching look at three generations of a close knit family of pistachio farmers.
posted by euphorb at 11:52 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is it the enthusiasm some here have for less well known films that's bothering you or are those "movies" just meant as a humorous aside? Either is fine of course, but if my enthusiasms are being challenged I'd at least like to know.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:16 PM on June 10, 2017
posted by gusottertrout at 2:16 PM on June 10, 2017
> The intent of these types of one-off lists is to get clicks. There's nothing authoritative about them at all. They're designed to make people argue about it, because when people argue about your list on the internet, they click on it repeatedly.
You didn't actually click on the link, did you? Which doesn't make you special, of course; few people here seem to have bothered to read the article, they seem to be treating amarynth's helpful list as all they need to go on. One of the worst things about MeFi, as far as I'm concerned, is the Fight Club approach to anything combining lists and art. For Christ's sake, this isn't a clickbait list, this is a discussion among a group of thoughtful people who love movies about some of the movies they love. Isn't anybody even slightly interested in that, or are you all just content to have another round of "X sucks, why didn't they include Y, this list sucks"? 'Cause that gets really tiresome after a certain number of repetitions.
Here, I'll quote what Guillermo del Toro had to say about Spirited Away:
posted by languagehat at 9:42 AM on June 11, 2017 [11 favorites]
You didn't actually click on the link, did you? Which doesn't make you special, of course; few people here seem to have bothered to read the article, they seem to be treating amarynth's helpful list as all they need to go on. One of the worst things about MeFi, as far as I'm concerned, is the Fight Club approach to anything combining lists and art. For Christ's sake, this isn't a clickbait list, this is a discussion among a group of thoughtful people who love movies about some of the movies they love. Isn't anybody even slightly interested in that, or are you all just content to have another round of "X sucks, why didn't they include Y, this list sucks"? 'Cause that gets really tiresome after a certain number of repetitions.
Here, I'll quote what Guillermo del Toro had to say about Spirited Away:
I discovered Miyazaki when I was a kid in Mexico. I remember seeing a sequence Miyazaki and [his colleague the animator Isao Takahata] did on a movie called “Puss in Boots” of an ogre running through a series of rocks, a typical Miyazaki chase in a crumbling tower, and I remember loving that movie.Isn't that more interesting than another round of "Crash sucks/no it doesn't"? Can't you just accept that any given list is going to include some things you wouldn't and leave out some things you would?
Many years later as a young adult I saw “My Neighbor Totoro” and it moved me to tears. I mean, I basically couldn’t stop crying at the beauty and the enormous feat of capturing the innocence of being a child. I immediately chased down everything he had done. The way they describe him as the Disney of the East I think is a tremendous misnomer: Miyazaki’s all his own.
In “Spirited Away” you have a girl right at the threshold of becoming a young woman and leaving her childhood behind, figuratively and literally. Chihiro starts the narrative as a child, the way she sits, the way we first meet her sitting on the seat of the car, legs up, it’s completely childish. She evolves from her poise, dress, attitude, emotion and spirituality from being a child to being a young woman and coming into her own, and in that position she has to go through the loss of everything. She loses her parents, she loses her name, she’s called nothing, she’s called Sen, she’s called zero. There’s a beautiful, very melancholic meditation – the same melancholy that permeates all Miyazaki’s films.
Miyazaki has an approach to making monsters that is unique. They are completely new in design, but they feel rooted in ancient lore. They seem to represent primal forces and, in many cases, spirits that are rooted to the earth, to the wind, to the water. They are very elemental.
He always looks for grace or power, and he can use power for good guys and bad guys equally, and he can use grace for destructive monsters or beneficial monsters. That’s the beauty of him. He understands that one of the essential things is to not seek anything good because by definition something will then become bad. Do not seek anything beautiful because by definition something then becomes ugly.
Of course I have a huge kinship with Miyazaki. The same sense of loss and melancholy and tragedy is what I tried to do in “Devil’s Backbone” or “Pan’s Labyrinth.” There is a moment in which beauty moves you in a way that is impossible to describe. It’s not that it’s a fabrication, it’s that it’s an artistic act and you know nothing you will encounter in the natural world will be that pure. Miyazaki has that power.
posted by languagehat at 9:42 AM on June 11, 2017 [11 favorites]
What the fuck? Of course I clicked the link, I read the article, and appreciated it. I'm not dogging the article at all, but the title absolutely makes it clickbait. And the article even alludes to that as well. And I'm not even really against that sort of thing at all, but it's a small group of people who were invited to participate, and while their discussions are good, it's more a small group opinion piece than an authoritative list of the best movies. If they'd framed it as "These are our favorite movies of the 21st century," though, people wouldn't feel as compelled to argue about it.
If you wanted something closer to a critical consensus, as I said, there are more comprehensive surveys available, and they serve as an excellent jumping off point for critical appreciations of the films they rate as well. (Someone may have already linked this, but here's a really good one.)
And I'm not even against the clickbait aspect. It can be fun to argue about those things, and I love lists as much as the next guy. If anything, I'm criticizing largely the same thing you are, and the fact that nobody's actually talking about the movies in the list. But I'm also realistic, and the fact is that you're not going to get a nuanced discussion of film on the front page of Metafilter. People aren't going to read the article, and they're not going to read the comments, even. The fact that I'm not trying to discuss the content of the article here doesn't mean I don't think it's worth discussing. I just wouldn't try to do it here.
Nobody has ever accused me of not reading enough film criticism before. I'm really not sure where that hot take even came from, but you're pretty far off base.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:17 PM on June 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
If you wanted something closer to a critical consensus, as I said, there are more comprehensive surveys available, and they serve as an excellent jumping off point for critical appreciations of the films they rate as well. (Someone may have already linked this, but here's a really good one.)
And I'm not even against the clickbait aspect. It can be fun to argue about those things, and I love lists as much as the next guy. If anything, I'm criticizing largely the same thing you are, and the fact that nobody's actually talking about the movies in the list. But I'm also realistic, and the fact is that you're not going to get a nuanced discussion of film on the front page of Metafilter. People aren't going to read the article, and they're not going to read the comments, even. The fact that I'm not trying to discuss the content of the article here doesn't mean I don't think it's worth discussing. I just wouldn't try to do it here.
Nobody has ever accused me of not reading enough film criticism before. I'm really not sure where that hot take even came from, but you're pretty far off base.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:17 PM on June 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
> What the fuck? Of course I clicked the link, I read the article, and appreciated it. I'm not dogging the article at all, but the title absolutely makes it clickbait.
But titles are always clickbait; they have nothing to do with the substance of the piece and are not written by anybody who had anything to do with the piece, they're written by people whose job is to write catchy headlines. You know that, right? So why even bother mentioning the title?
> Nobody has ever accused me of not reading enough film criticism before.
Sorry, I got carried away and took out my general irritation at the tone of the thread on you. Of course you read film criticism and generally have an informed opinion, and I shouldn't have suggested otherwise. But then you shouldn't have segued from the title to the piece like this: "The intent of these types of one-off lists is to get clicks. There's nothing authoritative about them at all." Also, how can any such list be "authoritative"? Again, it seems like a waste of time and mental energy even saying that.
posted by languagehat at 3:05 PM on June 11, 2017
But titles are always clickbait; they have nothing to do with the substance of the piece and are not written by anybody who had anything to do with the piece, they're written by people whose job is to write catchy headlines. You know that, right? So why even bother mentioning the title?
> Nobody has ever accused me of not reading enough film criticism before.
Sorry, I got carried away and took out my general irritation at the tone of the thread on you. Of course you read film criticism and generally have an informed opinion, and I shouldn't have suggested otherwise. But then you shouldn't have segued from the title to the piece like this: "The intent of these types of one-off lists is to get clicks. There's nothing authoritative about them at all." Also, how can any such list be "authoritative"? Again, it seems like a waste of time and mental energy even saying that.
posted by languagehat at 3:05 PM on June 11, 2017
I think it's a bit of both really, some attempt to talk about movies, but one where they aren't being entirely clear as to their organizing principle and purpose, and an attempt at clickbait as even their first sentence suggests with the obvious hook of this being an opportunity to pick fights over the choices.
We are now approximately one-sixth of the way through the 21st century, and thousands of movies have already been released. Which means that it’s high time for the sorting – and the fighting – to start.
I'd be happy to talk about many of the movies on the list, but I find their method of organization more interesting overall. They strongly suggest, for example, that they'd decided a Spielberg movie should make the list and a Pixar one, and only decided after the fact which one would make the cut. The same appears to be true for having an "action" movie on the list, and possibly true for a "comedy", both meant it seems to be likely US blockbuster types as they sought title suggestions and "votes" in a way, from their readership before making their final selections.
If this is the case, then the rest of the list carries similar weighted implication, where choices weren't just on merit of the individual film alone in some/many/most cases, but what it represents or who the artist was who made the film.
This is interesting, but carries a lot of extra implications about how they and we think about merit in film and how we've come to view art more generally. The selections of individual artists versus genre, how Scott and Dargis address each and how they deferred to their readership versus making personal choices in those two regards. Their seemingly conscious choices to emphasize more films outside the usual white male directed white male lead norm. Their preference in thematic choices may be aligned with this also. These kinds of questions are at the center of so many discussions over film viewing and appreciation, but, as here, often not put front and center, just shuffled around a bit behind the scenes as tastes and values change. It's fascinating and important in what it suggests about viewer perceptions around the role of the arts.
Also, talking about the individual films is difficult for me since I try hard not to diminish anyone else's enthusiasm for something I may not like as much unless it in a more involved discussion with people who've already come to their own conclusions on the film. So while a movie like Silent Light definitely has a lot to discuss about it, it's also the movie where there is a lot of contention between those who love it and those who find it entirely fraudulent. That kind of conversation belongs more on Fanfare than here I figure.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:43 PM on June 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
We are now approximately one-sixth of the way through the 21st century, and thousands of movies have already been released. Which means that it’s high time for the sorting – and the fighting – to start.
I'd be happy to talk about many of the movies on the list, but I find their method of organization more interesting overall. They strongly suggest, for example, that they'd decided a Spielberg movie should make the list and a Pixar one, and only decided after the fact which one would make the cut. The same appears to be true for having an "action" movie on the list, and possibly true for a "comedy", both meant it seems to be likely US blockbuster types as they sought title suggestions and "votes" in a way, from their readership before making their final selections.
If this is the case, then the rest of the list carries similar weighted implication, where choices weren't just on merit of the individual film alone in some/many/most cases, but what it represents or who the artist was who made the film.
This is interesting, but carries a lot of extra implications about how they and we think about merit in film and how we've come to view art more generally. The selections of individual artists versus genre, how Scott and Dargis address each and how they deferred to their readership versus making personal choices in those two regards. Their seemingly conscious choices to emphasize more films outside the usual white male directed white male lead norm. Their preference in thematic choices may be aligned with this also. These kinds of questions are at the center of so many discussions over film viewing and appreciation, but, as here, often not put front and center, just shuffled around a bit behind the scenes as tastes and values change. It's fascinating and important in what it suggests about viewer perceptions around the role of the arts.
Also, talking about the individual films is difficult for me since I try hard not to diminish anyone else's enthusiasm for something I may not like as much unless it in a more involved discussion with people who've already come to their own conclusions on the film. So while a movie like Silent Light definitely has a lot to discuss about it, it's also the movie where there is a lot of contention between those who love it and those who find it entirely fraudulent. That kind of conversation belongs more on Fanfare than here I figure.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:43 PM on June 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
But titles are always clickbait; they have nothing to do with the substance of the piece and are not written by anybody who had anything to do with the piece, they're written by people whose job is to write catchy headlines.
DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN
posted by rhizome at 4:21 PM on June 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN
posted by rhizome at 4:21 PM on June 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
But titles are always clickbait; they have nothing to do with the substance of the piece and are not written by anybody who had anything to do with the piece, they're written by people whose job is to write catchy headlines. You know that, right? So why even bother mentioning the title?
For a couple of reasons.
First, people, including me, get sucked into the framing, and feel compelled to point out omissions. It is very, very difficult to let that slide sometimes, and you keep remembering movies that were better than the worst of those included, and then the discussion devolves into dadgummed nthing and everyone posting their own favorite movies, without any real discussion.
Second, maybe this is just me, but when I'm arguing about an article on the internet, I tend to click through multiple times, going back to grab a quote or confirm something. I can click through to the same article a dozen times on something really contentious.
Also, did you notice the links Where to stream or rent for each movie that link to some NYT service? (I just clicked through to that article again to check the wording on that, BTW.)
Yes, of course I know that's how the internet works and all, but I do think it's worth reminding ourselves that we shouldn't be taking this 25 best framing seriously. If we're really going to keep coming back every time we remember a movie that came out in the 21st century that's better than, say, The 40 Year Old Virgin, this will be a browser crasher.
And no, there's no such thing as a true authoritative list, but there is such a thing as lists that survey much, much larger groups, and thus result in something closer to a consensus. The one I just linked to says it's "compiled from the multiple lists/ballots of 2,839 critics/sources."
I was going to bring up much the same thing that gusottertrout just described as well. It's pretty apparent that this list was compiled to include selections from a number of different areas, whereas, when you get a more comprehensive survey, each movie is counted on its merits without the limitation that the final list has to be inclusive. So it doesn't matter if a disproportionate number of the best reviewed movies are from the same country or the same genre, or one director is overrepresented.
Representation, of course, does matter, and you can absolutely compile lists of films that are representative of usually underrepresented groups, that are the best of specific genres or cultures, but if you're going to present something as the X Best Something, those things should be rated on their individual merits. (And if they were, the first movies I suspect would drop off the list are directed by white American men, before anyone's knees jerk too hard.)
The front page of Metafilter is just not a good place to talk about film as an art.
posted by ernielundquist at 5:16 PM on June 11, 2017
For a couple of reasons.
First, people, including me, get sucked into the framing, and feel compelled to point out omissions. It is very, very difficult to let that slide sometimes, and you keep remembering movies that were better than the worst of those included, and then the discussion devolves into dadgummed nthing and everyone posting their own favorite movies, without any real discussion.
Second, maybe this is just me, but when I'm arguing about an article on the internet, I tend to click through multiple times, going back to grab a quote or confirm something. I can click through to the same article a dozen times on something really contentious.
Also, did you notice the links Where to stream or rent for each movie that link to some NYT service? (I just clicked through to that article again to check the wording on that, BTW.)
Yes, of course I know that's how the internet works and all, but I do think it's worth reminding ourselves that we shouldn't be taking this 25 best framing seriously. If we're really going to keep coming back every time we remember a movie that came out in the 21st century that's better than, say, The 40 Year Old Virgin, this will be a browser crasher.
And no, there's no such thing as a true authoritative list, but there is such a thing as lists that survey much, much larger groups, and thus result in something closer to a consensus. The one I just linked to says it's "compiled from the multiple lists/ballots of 2,839 critics/sources."
I was going to bring up much the same thing that gusottertrout just described as well. It's pretty apparent that this list was compiled to include selections from a number of different areas, whereas, when you get a more comprehensive survey, each movie is counted on its merits without the limitation that the final list has to be inclusive. So it doesn't matter if a disproportionate number of the best reviewed movies are from the same country or the same genre, or one director is overrepresented.
Representation, of course, does matter, and you can absolutely compile lists of films that are representative of usually underrepresented groups, that are the best of specific genres or cultures, but if you're going to present something as the X Best Something, those things should be rated on their individual merits. (And if they were, the first movies I suspect would drop off the list are directed by white American men, before anyone's knees jerk too hard.)
The front page of Metafilter is just not a good place to talk about film as an art.
posted by ernielundquist at 5:16 PM on June 11, 2017
There are a few on the list that you couldn't pay me to see (like any movie about Bob Dylan, ever, or a Pixar movie, ugh)
You are Armond White and I claim my five pounds.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:07 AM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
You are Armond White and I claim my five pounds.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:07 AM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
> First, people, including me, get sucked into the framing, and feel compelled to point out omissions.
Sure, I have no problem with that. It's the way people point them out that irritates me. I'm fine with "Hey, why'd they leave out X? It's one of my favorite movies!" I'm not fine with "THEY LEFT OUT X SO THEY SUCK AND THE TIMES SUCK AND THESE LISTS SUCK," which is what most of the reactions read like to me.
> Yes, of course I know that's how the internet works and all, but I do think it's worth reminding ourselves that we shouldn't be taking this 25 best framing seriously.
Yabbut, surely no one (around here, anyway) actually takes the 25 best framing seriously; why can't we sort of collectively assume that it's just bullshit framing and actually address the substance of the piece, just like we don't all go PEPSI BLUE!! whenever an ad is on the front page? I mean, a few people usually mutter about ads, but mostly people are happy to talk about the linked thing.
> The front page of Metafilter is just not a good place to talk about film as an art.
But it could be, if people would stop knee-jerking about framing.
posted by languagehat at 7:17 AM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
Sure, I have no problem with that. It's the way people point them out that irritates me. I'm fine with "Hey, why'd they leave out X? It's one of my favorite movies!" I'm not fine with "THEY LEFT OUT X SO THEY SUCK AND THE TIMES SUCK AND THESE LISTS SUCK," which is what most of the reactions read like to me.
> Yes, of course I know that's how the internet works and all, but I do think it's worth reminding ourselves that we shouldn't be taking this 25 best framing seriously.
Yabbut, surely no one (around here, anyway) actually takes the 25 best framing seriously; why can't we sort of collectively assume that it's just bullshit framing and actually address the substance of the piece, just like we don't all go PEPSI BLUE!! whenever an ad is on the front page? I mean, a few people usually mutter about ads, but mostly people are happy to talk about the linked thing.
> The front page of Metafilter is just not a good place to talk about film as an art.
But it could be, if people would stop knee-jerking about framing.
posted by languagehat at 7:17 AM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
I should add that I really enjoy your comments and general presence here, so I hope I'm not coming off as fighty; I just get really irritated about not being able to have nice things.
posted by languagehat at 7:24 AM on June 12, 2017
posted by languagehat at 7:24 AM on June 12, 2017
But it could be, if people would stop knee-jerking about framing.
LOLSOB
posted by zarq at 9:01 AM on June 12, 2017
LOLSOB
posted by zarq at 9:01 AM on June 12, 2017
But it could be, if people would stop knee-jerking about framing.
A-ha! I've been confused because I'm griping about largely the same thing that you are, but I found the disconnect.
I've tried to talk about film in front page threads here, and it just doesn't work. Film is one of my favorite things to talk about, but I've given up on that here, and in fact, I usually try to ignore threads about movies overall just because of how frustratingly silly they are. I got 'called out' for misogyny once for saying that making a gender swapped remake of Citizen Kane would be a bad idea. It was just ridiculous on so many levels that I started trying to ignore threads about film. But like I said, I love movies and I love talking about them, so sometimes I have a moment of weakness and open a thread like this one.
Metafilter suuuuucks with hot takes and kneejerkery, and people think that things they don't really understand or appreciate are bullshit, so trying to talk about film appreciation can be a real exercise in futility, which is why I didn't even try.
I really should have just ignored the discussion entirely, though.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:05 AM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
A-ha! I've been confused because I'm griping about largely the same thing that you are, but I found the disconnect.
I've tried to talk about film in front page threads here, and it just doesn't work. Film is one of my favorite things to talk about, but I've given up on that here, and in fact, I usually try to ignore threads about movies overall just because of how frustratingly silly they are. I got 'called out' for misogyny once for saying that making a gender swapped remake of Citizen Kane would be a bad idea. It was just ridiculous on so many levels that I started trying to ignore threads about film. But like I said, I love movies and I love talking about them, so sometimes I have a moment of weakness and open a thread like this one.
Metafilter suuuuucks with hot takes and kneejerkery, and people think that things they don't really understand or appreciate are bullshit, so trying to talk about film appreciation can be a real exercise in futility, which is why I didn't even try.
I really should have just ignored the discussion entirely, though.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:05 AM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't think there's any way to appreciate a list like this On-Line except as "NO WAY BRO" bar banter. These articles succeed entirely because consensus is impossible.
posted by rhizome at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2017
posted by rhizome at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2017
I really should have just ignored the discussion entirely, though.
Nah, keep at it when you get the urge. Just because there is a a heavy tendency towards one sort of movie talk here, doesn't mean there can't be other kinds too. Though obviously probably not in the same threads, which can make lists a bit of a problem when they deal with both the popular and less so in the same list.
I am curious though as to what people would like to see discussed more if we were to ignore the framing. It is difficult to say much of worth about a movie without spoiling it, and the like/dislike response usually leads to generalities if you can't go into detail. Reading things like the del Toro's thoughts on Spirited Away, that languagehat quoted is interesting, with solid observations, but I'm not sure where to go with that other than to agree.
I'm well aware my particular angle on these things is a bit off from the norm, as is the way I respond at length. I'm fine with that as that's just how it works for me, but I sure wouldn't object to hearing more about what other people prefer.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:07 AM on June 12, 2017
Nah, keep at it when you get the urge. Just because there is a a heavy tendency towards one sort of movie talk here, doesn't mean there can't be other kinds too. Though obviously probably not in the same threads, which can make lists a bit of a problem when they deal with both the popular and less so in the same list.
I am curious though as to what people would like to see discussed more if we were to ignore the framing. It is difficult to say much of worth about a movie without spoiling it, and the like/dislike response usually leads to generalities if you can't go into detail. Reading things like the del Toro's thoughts on Spirited Away, that languagehat quoted is interesting, with solid observations, but I'm not sure where to go with that other than to agree.
I'm well aware my particular angle on these things is a bit off from the norm, as is the way I respond at length. I'm fine with that as that's just how it works for me, but I sure wouldn't object to hearing more about what other people prefer.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:07 AM on June 12, 2017
> Nah, keep at it when you get the urge.
Seconded.
> I don't think there's any way to appreciate a list like this On-Line except as "NO WAY BRO" bar banter.
(sigh...) Once again, with emphasis: it is not a list. It is a discussion about cinema based on a group of movies that were chosen by some procedure or other I don't give a shit about and neither should anybody else; it's just some people talking about some movies. Is it really impossible to talk about movies here?
posted by languagehat at 2:25 PM on June 12, 2017
Seconded.
> I don't think there's any way to appreciate a list like this On-Line except as "NO WAY BRO" bar banter.
(sigh...) Once again, with emphasis: it is not a list. It is a discussion about cinema based on a group of movies that were chosen by some procedure or other I don't give a shit about and neither should anybody else; it's just some people talking about some movies. Is it really impossible to talk about movies here?
posted by languagehat at 2:25 PM on June 12, 2017
Admittedly I do have a sometimes idiosyncratic approach to language, but "list" is what comes to mind when I see titles with numbers next to them. Despite this, I do like my "no way bro" movie arguments, even if they attempt to find consensus where there isn't any.
posted by rhizome at 3:37 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 3:37 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Enough about whether people are discussing this right, should this have been posted, do discussions at Metafilter suck. If you want to discuss movies in this thread, please do! Otherwise, Metatalk is your option.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:30 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:30 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
I enjoyed this listicle (ha!) because it introduced me to some new films. Not having seen those films, it's hard for me to argue with the overall list since I can't say 100% for sure that some of my favorites are better.
At first I was scratching my head about Munich, but the more I thought about it, the more I feel it belongs. It's a really good movie, incredibly well done, and the best of breed for a particular type of genre.
I'm very glad Spirited Away made this list, it's probably overall my favorite film from this era.
In terms of consensus, I really don't think that's the idea. This is a starting point of a conversation, not the end.
posted by cell divide at 2:08 PM on June 13, 2017
At first I was scratching my head about Munich, but the more I thought about it, the more I feel it belongs. It's a really good movie, incredibly well done, and the best of breed for a particular type of genre.
I'm very glad Spirited Away made this list, it's probably overall my favorite film from this era.
In terms of consensus, I really don't think that's the idea. This is a starting point of a conversation, not the end.
posted by cell divide at 2:08 PM on June 13, 2017
It's hard to argue against Spirited Away being chosen for any, um, collection of titles of this sort given it's influence, mastery of craft, singularity of aesthetic, and respect among both general and specialized audiences. There's really not much of an effective rejoinder to its inclusion other than, perhaps, someone preferring to exclude an animated feature for some choices for personal accounting of merit. Which is to say, it's a film which won't fit everyone's method of selection, but it's one which can't be easily discounted as a choice from those who would select it. While there are increasing numbers of amazing films being made using animation, Miyazaki still has as good a claim as any on having created some of the greatest movies in that field, and showing animation can be as powerful, true, and necessary a method of storytelling as live action when in the right hands. No complaints about the inclusion of Spirited Away from me.
Munich is tougher for me. It's at times brilliant formal filmmaking, as is so often the case with Spielberg, but I'm a bit more ambivalent about how that skill is put to use at times, where the tension and thrills don't necessarily align for me with the theme of the film. There is a bit of the problem with trying to make a dynamic anti-war movie here, where the theme pushes one way and the movie making pushes another without any clarity in the combination. Spielberg gets so involved with making the actions tense and exciting that it's a bit too easy to lose sight of the larger concept at times.
To be sure, Munich isn't the worst example of this as there are some deeply effective moments and scenes providing meaningful examination of the conflicts involved, but it started to lose some of that effectiveness of the moment in reflection when held against the greater complexities of reality. The most flagrant example is in the, to me, unforgivably awful ending of the film. Endings often are a problem for Spielberg, but the one in Munich is as risible as any I've seen. I personally can't agree with it being selected as representative of the best of the century so far, even as there are things to admire about it.
I'm also not convinced there need be any Spielberg film represented, even as I acknowledge his continued growth in craft and believe AI to be an excellent film. I have to question the reasoning behind the decision that a Spielberg film had to be included due, somehow, to his importance to movies in the 21st century. While certainly not without successes and influence this century, he was a much more notable force during the last decades of the 20th century and since that time other directors have come to match and sometimes surpass his skills.
His movies alone are a mixed bag. There are moderately successful but largely ignored films like Catch Me If You Can, Lincoln, and The Terminal, some like Tin Tin and Bridge of Spies spark some debate over their merits, mostly on formal grounds, Minority Report and War of the Worlds have their partisans, but each is generally held as impressive but flawed, Munich too perhaps fits in that group, I've heard little mentioned about BFG or War Horse, and almost no one thinks Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is a good movie. That doesn't strike me as a "must have" body of work for inclusion with the best of the century, though on personal evaluation of their individual merit I could see some including a film from him over this time period. I simply can't see justification for Spielberg demanding any greater consideration than that as there are simply too many other great directors in this time period to single him out as more deserving.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:39 AM on June 14, 2017
Munich is tougher for me. It's at times brilliant formal filmmaking, as is so often the case with Spielberg, but I'm a bit more ambivalent about how that skill is put to use at times, where the tension and thrills don't necessarily align for me with the theme of the film. There is a bit of the problem with trying to make a dynamic anti-war movie here, where the theme pushes one way and the movie making pushes another without any clarity in the combination. Spielberg gets so involved with making the actions tense and exciting that it's a bit too easy to lose sight of the larger concept at times.
To be sure, Munich isn't the worst example of this as there are some deeply effective moments and scenes providing meaningful examination of the conflicts involved, but it started to lose some of that effectiveness of the moment in reflection when held against the greater complexities of reality. The most flagrant example is in the, to me, unforgivably awful ending of the film. Endings often are a problem for Spielberg, but the one in Munich is as risible as any I've seen. I personally can't agree with it being selected as representative of the best of the century so far, even as there are things to admire about it.
I'm also not convinced there need be any Spielberg film represented, even as I acknowledge his continued growth in craft and believe AI to be an excellent film. I have to question the reasoning behind the decision that a Spielberg film had to be included due, somehow, to his importance to movies in the 21st century. While certainly not without successes and influence this century, he was a much more notable force during the last decades of the 20th century and since that time other directors have come to match and sometimes surpass his skills.
His movies alone are a mixed bag. There are moderately successful but largely ignored films like Catch Me If You Can, Lincoln, and The Terminal, some like Tin Tin and Bridge of Spies spark some debate over their merits, mostly on formal grounds, Minority Report and War of the Worlds have their partisans, but each is generally held as impressive but flawed, Munich too perhaps fits in that group, I've heard little mentioned about BFG or War Horse, and almost no one thinks Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is a good movie. That doesn't strike me as a "must have" body of work for inclusion with the best of the century, though on personal evaluation of their individual merit I could see some including a film from him over this time period. I simply can't see justification for Spielberg demanding any greater consideration than that as there are simply too many other great directors in this time period to single him out as more deserving.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:39 AM on June 14, 2017
Of course Dargis and Scott seem to have a different accounting of Spielberg's recent films, putting, in my mind, an undue weighting on the number of films he made and therefore clout. But whatever they hold the case to be, I don't think they sold it convincingly enough in their argument for Munich. With Eastwood also showing up, it feels like they are nodding a bit too heavily towards an outdated evaluation of the ever nebulous concept of "auteurism".
posted by gusottertrout at 3:05 AM on June 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by gusottertrout at 3:05 AM on June 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
One tragedy of Roger Ebert's death is that he didn't have time to disown Tree Of Life and put Synechdoche NY on his top 10 list, where it rightfully belongs.
posted by Theta States at 7:24 AM on June 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Theta States at 7:24 AM on June 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Because film criticism is pretty much synonymous nowadays with compiling lists, or collections of films accumulated via some method of merit or preference, a couple other notable critics joined in and gave their choices:
Jonathan Rosenbaum
listed alphabetically:
A.I. Artificial Intelligence (Spielberg/Kubrick)
Bernie (Linklater)
Certified Copy (Kiarostami)
The Circle (Panahi)
The Clock (Marclay)
*Corpus Callosum (Snow)
The Day I Became a Woman (Meshkini)
Down There (Akerman)
Down with Love (Reed)
Farewell to Language (Godard)
Horse Money (Costa)
Howl’s Moving Castle (Miyazaki)
Inland Empire (Lynch)
Los Angeles Plays Itself (Andersen)
The Mad Songs of Fernanda Hussein (Gianvito)
Operai, Contadini (Straub-Huillet)
Paterson (Jarmusch)
Pistol Opera (Suzuki)
RR (Benning)
The Silence Before Bach (Portabella)
Son of Saul (Nemes)
The Trap (Curtis)
The Turin Horse (Tarr)
The World (Jia)
You Ain’t Seen Nothin’ Yet (Resnais)
Richard Brody (for the New Yorker)
“In Praise of Love” (2001, Jean-Luc Godard)
“The Wolf of Wall Street” (2013, Martin Scorsese)
“The Future” (2011, Miranda July)
“Thou Wast Mild and Lovely” (2014, Josephine Decker)
“Like Someone in Love” (2012, Abbas Kiarostami)
“The Last of the Unjust” (2013, Claude Lanzmann)
“Holy Motors” (2012, Leos Carax)
“The Darjeeling Limited” (2007, Wes Anderson)
“The Beaches of Agnès” (2008, Agnès Varda)
“The World” (2004, Jia Zhangke)
“A Quiet Passion” (2017, Terence Davies)
“Margaret” (2011, Kenneth Lonergan)
“Somewhere” (2010, Sofia Coppola)
“Frownland” (2007, Ronald Bronstein)
“Chi-Raq” (2015, Spike Lee)
“Little Sister” (2016, Zach Clark)
“Moolaadé” (2004, Ousmane Sembene)
“Funny People” (2009, Judd Apatow)
“Gentlemen Broncos” (2009, Jared Hess)
“Coma” (2016, Sara Fattahi)
“American Sniper” (2014, Clint Eastwood)
“Woman on the Beach” (2006, Hong Sang-soo)
“Li’l Quinquin” (2014, Bruno Dumont)
“Viktoria” (2014, Maya Vitkova)
“Hamilton” (2006, Matthew Porterfield)
And since these kinds of exercises are never complete without someone trying to weasel their way around the rules...
J. Hoberman
(Explanation for groupings and such at the link)
Christian Marclay: The Clock
Lars von Trier: Dogville & Melancholia (and none of his others)
Hou Hsiao Hsien: The Assassin & Flight of the Red Balloon
Jean-Luc Godard: In Praise of Love & Farewell to Language
David Cronenberg: Spider, A History of Violence, Eastern Promises, & A Dangerous Method
David Lynch: Mulholland Drive & Inland Empire
Ken Jacobs: Seeking the Monkey King, The Guests (and more)
Cristi Puiu: The Death of Mr Lazarescu & Aurora
Chantal Akerman: No Home Movie & La Captive (assuming that 2000 is part of the 21st Century)
Paul Thomas Anderson: The Master & There Will Be Blood
Kathryn Bigelow: The Hurt Locker & Zero Dark Thirty
Alfonso Cuarón: Gravity & Children of Men
Sensory Ethnology Lab: Leviathan, Manakamana, People’s Park
The Strange Case of Angelica–Manoel de Oliviera
Corpus Callosum–Michael Snow
West of the Tracks–Wang Bing
Carlos—Olivier Assayas
Che–Steven Soderbergh
Ten–Abbas Kariostami
Russian Ark–Aleksandr Sokurov
The World–Jia Zhangke
Citizenfour–Laura Poitras
Day Night Day Night–Julia Loktev:
Once Upon a Time in Anatolia–Nuri Bilge Ceylan
WALL-E–Andrew Stanton
The BBC had another critic round up, with a collection of 100 films generated
Their top 25 (in reverse order):
25. Memento (Christopher Nolan, 2000)
24. The Master (Paul Thomas Anderson, 2012)
23. Caché (Michael Haneke, 2005)
22. Lost in Translation (Sofia Coppola, 2003)
21. The Grand Budapest Hotel (Wes Anderson, 2014)
20. Synecdoche, New York (Charlie Kaufman, 2008)
19. Mad Max: Fury Road (George Miller, 2015)
18. The White Ribbon (Michael Haneke, 2009)
17. Pan's Labyrinth (Guillermo Del Toro, 2006)
16. Holy Motors (Leos Carax, 2012)
15. 4 Months, 3 Weeks and 2 Days (Cristian Mungiu, 2007)
14. The Act of Killing (Joshua Oppenheimer, 2012)
13. Children of Men (Alfonso Cuarón, 2006)
12. Zodiac (David Fincher, 2007)
11. Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
10. No Country for Old Men (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2007)
9. A Separation (Asghar Farhadi, 2011)
8. Yi Yi: A One and a Two (Edward Yang, 2000)
7. The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)
6. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (Michel Gondry, 2004)
5. Boyhood (Richard Linklater, 2014)
4. Spirited Away (Hayao Miyazaki, 2001)
3. There Will Be Blood (Paul Thomas Anderson, 2007)
2. In the Mood for Love (Wong Kar-wai, 2000)
1. Mulholland Drive (David Lynch, 2001)
(And as any excuse will do for most film bloggers to make yet another list, one can browse the web using the NYT title and find many more lists from people who may or may not really know much about the subject.)
posted by gusottertrout at 11:34 AM on June 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Jonathan Rosenbaum
listed alphabetically:
A.I. Artificial Intelligence (Spielberg/Kubrick)
Bernie (Linklater)
Certified Copy (Kiarostami)
The Circle (Panahi)
The Clock (Marclay)
*Corpus Callosum (Snow)
The Day I Became a Woman (Meshkini)
Down There (Akerman)
Down with Love (Reed)
Farewell to Language (Godard)
Horse Money (Costa)
Howl’s Moving Castle (Miyazaki)
Inland Empire (Lynch)
Los Angeles Plays Itself (Andersen)
The Mad Songs of Fernanda Hussein (Gianvito)
Operai, Contadini (Straub-Huillet)
Paterson (Jarmusch)
Pistol Opera (Suzuki)
RR (Benning)
The Silence Before Bach (Portabella)
Son of Saul (Nemes)
The Trap (Curtis)
The Turin Horse (Tarr)
The World (Jia)
You Ain’t Seen Nothin’ Yet (Resnais)
Richard Brody (for the New Yorker)
“In Praise of Love” (2001, Jean-Luc Godard)
“The Wolf of Wall Street” (2013, Martin Scorsese)
“The Future” (2011, Miranda July)
“Thou Wast Mild and Lovely” (2014, Josephine Decker)
“Like Someone in Love” (2012, Abbas Kiarostami)
“The Last of the Unjust” (2013, Claude Lanzmann)
“Holy Motors” (2012, Leos Carax)
“The Darjeeling Limited” (2007, Wes Anderson)
“The Beaches of Agnès” (2008, Agnès Varda)
“The World” (2004, Jia Zhangke)
“A Quiet Passion” (2017, Terence Davies)
“Margaret” (2011, Kenneth Lonergan)
“Somewhere” (2010, Sofia Coppola)
“Frownland” (2007, Ronald Bronstein)
“Chi-Raq” (2015, Spike Lee)
“Little Sister” (2016, Zach Clark)
“Moolaadé” (2004, Ousmane Sembene)
“Funny People” (2009, Judd Apatow)
“Gentlemen Broncos” (2009, Jared Hess)
“Coma” (2016, Sara Fattahi)
“American Sniper” (2014, Clint Eastwood)
“Woman on the Beach” (2006, Hong Sang-soo)
“Li’l Quinquin” (2014, Bruno Dumont)
“Viktoria” (2014, Maya Vitkova)
“Hamilton” (2006, Matthew Porterfield)
And since these kinds of exercises are never complete without someone trying to weasel their way around the rules...
J. Hoberman
(Explanation for groupings and such at the link)
Christian Marclay: The Clock
Lars von Trier: Dogville & Melancholia (and none of his others)
Hou Hsiao Hsien: The Assassin & Flight of the Red Balloon
Jean-Luc Godard: In Praise of Love & Farewell to Language
David Cronenberg: Spider, A History of Violence, Eastern Promises, & A Dangerous Method
David Lynch: Mulholland Drive & Inland Empire
Ken Jacobs: Seeking the Monkey King, The Guests (and more)
Cristi Puiu: The Death of Mr Lazarescu & Aurora
Chantal Akerman: No Home Movie & La Captive (assuming that 2000 is part of the 21st Century)
Paul Thomas Anderson: The Master & There Will Be Blood
Kathryn Bigelow: The Hurt Locker & Zero Dark Thirty
Alfonso Cuarón: Gravity & Children of Men
Sensory Ethnology Lab: Leviathan, Manakamana, People’s Park
The Strange Case of Angelica–Manoel de Oliviera
Corpus Callosum–Michael Snow
West of the Tracks–Wang Bing
Carlos—Olivier Assayas
Che–Steven Soderbergh
Ten–Abbas Kariostami
Russian Ark–Aleksandr Sokurov
The World–Jia Zhangke
Citizenfour–Laura Poitras
Day Night Day Night–Julia Loktev:
Once Upon a Time in Anatolia–Nuri Bilge Ceylan
WALL-E–Andrew Stanton
The BBC had another critic round up, with a collection of 100 films generated
Their top 25 (in reverse order):
25. Memento (Christopher Nolan, 2000)
24. The Master (Paul Thomas Anderson, 2012)
23. Caché (Michael Haneke, 2005)
22. Lost in Translation (Sofia Coppola, 2003)
21. The Grand Budapest Hotel (Wes Anderson, 2014)
20. Synecdoche, New York (Charlie Kaufman, 2008)
19. Mad Max: Fury Road (George Miller, 2015)
18. The White Ribbon (Michael Haneke, 2009)
17. Pan's Labyrinth (Guillermo Del Toro, 2006)
16. Holy Motors (Leos Carax, 2012)
15. 4 Months, 3 Weeks and 2 Days (Cristian Mungiu, 2007)
14. The Act of Killing (Joshua Oppenheimer, 2012)
13. Children of Men (Alfonso Cuarón, 2006)
12. Zodiac (David Fincher, 2007)
11. Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
10. No Country for Old Men (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2007)
9. A Separation (Asghar Farhadi, 2011)
8. Yi Yi: A One and a Two (Edward Yang, 2000)
7. The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)
6. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (Michel Gondry, 2004)
5. Boyhood (Richard Linklater, 2014)
4. Spirited Away (Hayao Miyazaki, 2001)
3. There Will Be Blood (Paul Thomas Anderson, 2007)
2. In the Mood for Love (Wong Kar-wai, 2000)
1. Mulholland Drive (David Lynch, 2001)
(And as any excuse will do for most film bloggers to make yet another list, one can browse the web using the NYT title and find many more lists from people who may or may not really know much about the subject.)
posted by gusottertrout at 11:34 AM on June 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Lars von Trier: Dogville & Melancholia (and none of his others)
hehehe
posted by Theta States at 5:45 AM on June 22, 2017
hehehe
posted by Theta States at 5:45 AM on June 22, 2017
NoMich: "Never saw "Timbuktu," but I immediately thought of Timbuk 3's cover art for "Greetings From Timbuk 3" when I saw the GIF for that entry."
"Edge of Allegiance" is clearly their best album, though.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:54 AM on June 23, 2017
"Edge of Allegiance" is clearly their best album, though.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:54 AM on June 23, 2017
There are four movies by women out of 25, and the only iffy one, IMO, is The Gleaners and I, but Agnes Varda is one of the greatest directors of all time, and while that's not her best movie, it's really really good.
Just watched Gleaners last night and it is good*, I plan to watch more of her documentaries.
*The 2000 era digital video quality is hard to watch though. I understand that she used it for portability and immediacy but it does look so terrible
posted by octothorpe at 4:03 AM on June 23, 2017
Just watched Gleaners last night and it is good*, I plan to watch more of her documentaries.
*The 2000 era digital video quality is hard to watch though. I understand that she used it for portability and immediacy but it does look so terrible
posted by octothorpe at 4:03 AM on June 23, 2017
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ctrl-f "Children of Men"
Yeah, this list needs work. Revise and resubmit, please.
posted by turbowombat at 9:08 AM on June 9, 2017 [35 favorites]