The Wayne family fortune
June 12, 2017 4:04 PM Subscribe
How does Batman make all his money? - and other questions raised by Bruce Wayne being rich as hell.
Bruce Wayne even owns the Daily Planet, which technically makes him Superman's boss even when they're not hanging out with the Justice League.
Subtle, Mr. Wayne... Did you acquire this in a passive-aggressive Batman vs. Superman?
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:30 PM on June 12, 2017 [5 favorites]
Subtle, Mr. Wayne... Did you acquire this in a passive-aggressive Batman vs. Superman?
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:30 PM on June 12, 2017 [5 favorites]
One of the snarky criticisms that you see floating around about Batman is that he spends his money on Batarangs, supercomputers, and other vaguely bat-shaped toys rather than using it all to help the real problems, but that's a criticism that ignores one very simple fact: it's all made up.
You write article about Batman's finances, then you decide to use this approach in the second-to-last paragraph?
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:40 PM on June 12, 2017 [64 favorites]
You write article about Batman's finances, then you decide to use this approach in the second-to-last paragraph?
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:40 PM on June 12, 2017 [64 favorites]
He's the landlord Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:44 PM on June 12, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:44 PM on June 12, 2017 [5 favorites]
I just read this last night when I googled to see where Chris Sims had turned up after the (second) shuttering of Comics Alliance. You should check out his article over at Polygon about how the Sonic The Hedgehog comic became America's longest running comic without a reboot or renumbering.
posted by KingEdRa at 4:45 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by KingEdRa at 4:45 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
Pimping.
posted by jonmc at 4:50 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 4:50 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well, Batman gets around. Constantly prowling the streets. A forgotten roll of quarters here, a dropped twenty there, it all adds up. Probably recycles cans and bottles too? If not, he should. He would have a Bat-Grabby-Hand, and wouldn't even have to bend down.
And, let's be real here, he always magically seems to be around just after the bank vault has been emptied. Imagine if he was a minority guy claiming to be a "detective", but doesn't actually have a badge or credentials, and he's standing there in an empty bank vault when the police arrive, with a bulging fanny pack.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:54 PM on June 12, 2017 [38 favorites]
And, let's be real here, he always magically seems to be around just after the bank vault has been emptied. Imagine if he was a minority guy claiming to be a "detective", but doesn't actually have a badge or credentials, and he's standing there in an empty bank vault when the police arrive, with a bulging fanny pack.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:54 PM on June 12, 2017 [38 favorites]
You write article about Batman's finances, then you decide to use this approach in the second-to-last paragraph?
It's funny, in the same vein, one of the lesser known economic impacts of the Endor Holocaust on the surviving native Ewok population's traditionally tribal based barter system is that it's all just a made up story for little kids you nerd!
posted by leotrotsky at 4:54 PM on June 12, 2017 [33 favorites]
It's funny, in the same vein, one of the lesser known economic impacts of the Endor Holocaust on the surviving native Ewok population's traditionally tribal based barter system is that it's all just a made up story for little kids you nerd!
posted by leotrotsky at 4:54 PM on June 12, 2017 [33 favorites]
He's the landlord Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now.
To be fair, perhaps there's a reason "The Rent Is Too Damn High" guy looks like a member of the Rogue's Gallery.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:56 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
To be fair, perhaps there's a reason "The Rent Is Too Damn High" guy looks like a member of the Rogue's Gallery.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:56 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
Sleep! That's where vikings are just part of the dream!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:57 PM on June 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:57 PM on June 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
Plastics.
posted by vrakatar at 4:57 PM on June 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by vrakatar at 4:57 PM on June 12, 2017 [6 favorites]
Wayne Foundation? So, you're saying the writers already thought of the idea that Bruce Wayne could use his wealth to make a positive impact on Gotham through charitable action?
That one guy on the internet is going to be pissed when he finds out.
posted by ckape at 4:58 PM on June 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
That one guy on the internet is going to be pissed when he finds out.
posted by ckape at 4:58 PM on June 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
Babadook memes
posted by nfalkner at 5:00 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by nfalkner at 5:00 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
Wayne Foundation? So, you're saying the writers already thought of the idea that Bruce Wayne could use his wealth to make a positive impact on Gotham through charitable action?
Yes, it's how he does his "realistic" crime fighting. I'm still trying to parse why the article wanted quotes around that.
posted by nubs at 5:00 PM on June 12, 2017
Yes, it's how he does his "realistic" crime fighting. I'm still trying to parse why the article wanted quotes around that.
posted by nubs at 5:00 PM on June 12, 2017
Because BAT-men are rich as hell
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:27 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:27 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
Some of this stuff is interesting, but some of it is too clever by half, such as the bit about the Wayne family fortune being dependent in part on Thomas Wayne finding a probe from Jor-El. I'd like someone to do a story on Wayne Industries' having stock in the company that manufactures Gotham City's traffic signals and stoplight cameras, which somehow let a certain highly-customized car drive around the city streets at speed but never get its picture before it disappears into the hillside near Stately You-Know-Who's Manor.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:29 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:29 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
Batman is buddy-buddy with the Flash.
Who can travel in time.
And return holding an object from a future time, like, say, a sports almanac.
posted by delfin at 5:29 PM on June 12, 2017 [16 favorites]
Who can travel in time.
And return holding an object from a future time, like, say, a sports almanac.
posted by delfin at 5:29 PM on June 12, 2017 [16 favorites]
That was a better article than I expected. It does answer the question of where Bruce Wayne's money comes from - he inherited it, from the separate family fortunes of his mother and his father.
But the real answer has to do with a tendency for exaggeration that seems to be a problem in any kind of long running serialized entertainment. It seems like anything that starts out as fairly realistic, or a least not incredibly exaggerated becomes more and more outsized with time as different creators keep doing their own takes on the legend. Some dude named Heracles kills a lion or cleans out a stable and a couple hundred years later he's a demigod and the greatest hero ever. Bruce Wayne is wealthy in the first Batman story, and seventy-plus years later he's now one of the richest men in the world. Professor X has some good ideas about mutants and humans not killing each other, and thirty years later he's viewed as an MLK/Gandhi figure by other characters. Lois Lane is an ambitious reporter, but over time she gets better and better until she's practically the god of reporting, winning Pulitzer Prizes by the dozen. It makes it difficult to continue these stories, when every feature the characters possess gets supersized with time.
posted by Kevin Street at 5:32 PM on June 12, 2017 [23 favorites]
But the real answer has to do with a tendency for exaggeration that seems to be a problem in any kind of long running serialized entertainment. It seems like anything that starts out as fairly realistic, or a least not incredibly exaggerated becomes more and more outsized with time as different creators keep doing their own takes on the legend. Some dude named Heracles kills a lion or cleans out a stable and a couple hundred years later he's a demigod and the greatest hero ever. Bruce Wayne is wealthy in the first Batman story, and seventy-plus years later he's now one of the richest men in the world. Professor X has some good ideas about mutants and humans not killing each other, and thirty years later he's viewed as an MLK/Gandhi figure by other characters. Lois Lane is an ambitious reporter, but over time she gets better and better until she's practically the god of reporting, winning Pulitzer Prizes by the dozen. It makes it difficult to continue these stories, when every feature the characters possess gets supersized with time.
posted by Kevin Street at 5:32 PM on June 12, 2017 [23 favorites]
Kevin Street: That's super-Flanderization.
The act of taking a single (often minor) action or trait of a character within a work and exaggerating it more and more over time until it completely consumes the character. Most always, the trait/action becomes completely outlandish and it becomes their defining characteristic. Sitcoms and Sitcom characters are particularly susceptible to this, as are peripheral characters in shows with long runs.
Here's the comic subpage
posted by leotrotsky at 5:43 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
The act of taking a single (often minor) action or trait of a character within a work and exaggerating it more and more over time until it completely consumes the character. Most always, the trait/action becomes completely outlandish and it becomes their defining characteristic. Sitcoms and Sitcom characters are particularly susceptible to this, as are peripheral characters in shows with long runs.
Here's the comic subpage
posted by leotrotsky at 5:43 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
Yeah, that describes it pretty well! And it's even worse for comic book villains, who often end up exaggerated to the point where they can't conceivably work as recurring threats any more. But like the TV Tropes link says, this happens in any kind of serialized fiction, not just comics and movies based on them.
posted by Kevin Street at 5:48 PM on June 12, 2017
posted by Kevin Street at 5:48 PM on June 12, 2017
tl/dr, some artist just drew a very large bank vault with stacks and stacks of greenbacks.
posted by sammyo at 5:56 PM on June 12, 2017
posted by sammyo at 5:56 PM on June 12, 2017
> How does Batman make all his money?
He doesn't make all his money. Due to regressive tax systems and the dismantling of citizen benefits by the Gotham City Republican Party, all wealth in this fictional universe has eventually consolidated into the hands of essentially one person. And while the City literally crumbles in crime and decay, being regularly destroyed by terrorists, one rich guy gets to play pretend badass at night while assuaging his own sense of complicity by pouring a bit of money back out to the city via his personal charitable foundation. But as one of the few people with enough wealth to actually own anything (cf. his owning the Daily Planet and damned near every piece of property -- intellectual or otherwise) he essentially rent-seeks the entire Gotham City economy, rendering himself wealthier and wealthier off the sweat and ideas of Gotham's citizens, while sucking the entire area financially dry. As he increases is personal power, the only people willing to stand up to him are, increasingly, only those mentally deranged enough to think they have a hope of winning. But they never do. Batman always wins. Everyone will forever live under his thumb, mere playthings for the playboy superhero.
That's how he makes his money.
Also it's a fictional story, so... there's an endless bag of $100 bills at the bottom of the Bat Cave.
posted by chasing at 6:00 PM on June 12, 2017 [66 favorites]
He doesn't make all his money. Due to regressive tax systems and the dismantling of citizen benefits by the Gotham City Republican Party, all wealth in this fictional universe has eventually consolidated into the hands of essentially one person. And while the City literally crumbles in crime and decay, being regularly destroyed by terrorists, one rich guy gets to play pretend badass at night while assuaging his own sense of complicity by pouring a bit of money back out to the city via his personal charitable foundation. But as one of the few people with enough wealth to actually own anything (cf. his owning the Daily Planet and damned near every piece of property -- intellectual or otherwise) he essentially rent-seeks the entire Gotham City economy, rendering himself wealthier and wealthier off the sweat and ideas of Gotham's citizens, while sucking the entire area financially dry. As he increases is personal power, the only people willing to stand up to him are, increasingly, only those mentally deranged enough to think they have a hope of winning. But they never do. Batman always wins. Everyone will forever live under his thumb, mere playthings for the playboy superhero.
That's how he makes his money.
Also it's a fictional story, so... there's an endless bag of $100 bills at the bottom of the Bat Cave.
posted by chasing at 6:00 PM on June 12, 2017 [66 favorites]
"And return holding an object from a future time, like, say, a sports almanac."
You know this means that The Flash and Batman are the same guy: Batman is 50s Biff and The Flash is 80s Biff. (Better technology = super speed.) Also, Gotham City is Pottersville.
posted by Philofacts at 6:07 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
You know this means that The Flash and Batman are the same guy: Batman is 50s Biff and The Flash is 80s Biff. (Better technology = super speed.) Also, Gotham City is Pottersville.
posted by Philofacts at 6:07 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
I liked court of owls etc as a story but not the implication that Batman was somehow ties into the Wayne tradition of protecting Gotham sucks. I have always thought of him as rejecting his privelege by tbrowing his money, mind and body at injustice. But I think thats mostly from TAS, set on a much smaller scale, and in a more naive time. I love Grant Morrison but the Batman cave drawing in Infinitr Crisis, the Jungian UrBatman... Just kind of seem annoying to me. Of course I liked Batman in BvS and thought the extended version, with Lex emotionally blackmailing Bruce, was great.
posted by kittensofthenight at 6:23 PM on June 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by kittensofthenight at 6:23 PM on June 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
I guess the fun is in thinking about all the diff versions, and the way new interpretations illuminate tradition.its all good. Unless its a shitty story. Or Batman is pissing himself.
posted by kittensofthenight at 6:25 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by kittensofthenight at 6:25 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
That explains all the costumes, I guess.
posted by bonehead at 6:31 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 6:31 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also that a lot of them are vinyl or whatever.
Poor Alfred.
posted by asperity at 6:35 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
Poor Alfred.
posted by asperity at 6:35 PM on June 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's super-Flanderization.
Superman: originally a guy good at opening jars.
posted by zippy at 6:41 PM on June 12, 2017 [28 favorites]
Superman: originally a guy good at opening jars.
posted by zippy at 6:41 PM on June 12, 2017 [28 favorites]
His kryptonite was rust.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:50 PM on June 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:50 PM on June 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's Clark Kent on a plane opening a jar for some bird!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:54 PM on June 12, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:54 PM on June 12, 2017 [16 favorites]
Simple. Wayne Enterprises had WellZyn making OxyChiroptera for the street.
Why, yes, I have been getting caught up on Gotham season 1 lately! Why do you ask?
posted by Samizdata at 7:20 PM on June 12, 2017
Why, yes, I have been getting caught up on Gotham season 1 lately! Why do you ask?
posted by Samizdata at 7:20 PM on June 12, 2017
Superman was originally the World's Greatest Detective, since he found out who really killed Jack Kennedy(in his very first case!). What's Batman's idea of a big case? Figuring out that the Riddler is using another acrostic-based puzzle?
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:25 PM on June 12, 2017
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:25 PM on June 12, 2017
I'd like to see a Batman story where there's a problem that can't be solved with bat-tech, punching people, or even Batty's paranoid hyperpreparedness. Make it a rich guy signing a check story, but show all the politics involved with that kind of thing, the moral compromises involved, and how little things really change, no matter how vast the sums of money involved. Show how there are two tiers of justice in society: 'gentleman's agreements' between the rich and powerful, and the strict, unsympathetic enforcement of laws for all the rest of us. Show how systemic and intractable the whole sorry mess is. Let's see the caped crusader fix that.
posted by KHAAAN! at 7:29 PM on June 12, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by KHAAAN! at 7:29 PM on June 12, 2017 [12 favorites]
Lois Lane is an ambitious reporter, but over time she gets better and better until she's practically the god of reporting, winning Pulitzer Prizes by the dozen. It makes it difficult to continue these stories, when every feature the characters possess gets supersized with time.
Look, over 70 years, while Superman was using his experience points to amp up his powers with things like Faster than Light Travel and Heat-Vision, Lois had to spend her experience on SOMETHING. So she bought "Professional Skill: Reporter" up to 70-, and had plenty of points left to buy her reputation sky-high. Bruce on the other hand, just absentmindedly put five points into Wealth every decade or so, and before he knew it, he was a trillionaire.
Happens all the time with long-term Champions characters.
posted by happyroach at 7:38 PM on June 12, 2017 [21 favorites]
Look, over 70 years, while Superman was using his experience points to amp up his powers with things like Faster than Light Travel and Heat-Vision, Lois had to spend her experience on SOMETHING. So she bought "Professional Skill: Reporter" up to 70-, and had plenty of points left to buy her reputation sky-high. Bruce on the other hand, just absentmindedly put five points into Wealth every decade or so, and before he knew it, he was a trillionaire.
Happens all the time with long-term Champions characters.
posted by happyroach at 7:38 PM on June 12, 2017 [21 favorites]
I was thinking that Gotham City didn't have very good investigative reporters if they still hadn't figured out any of these secret identities in over 70 years, but Bruce Wayne's ownership of the paper explains that. I'm sure annual performance reviews start to go south if anybody gets too nosy.
posted by clawsoon at 7:48 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:48 PM on June 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
Man, fans suck the fun out of everything
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:01 PM on June 12, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:01 PM on June 12, 2017 [5 favorites]
Let's see the caped crusader fix that.
Alfred jots on a napkin: "WAYNE FOR AMERICA"
posted by FJT at 8:41 PM on June 12, 2017
Alfred jots on a napkin: "WAYNE FOR AMERICA"
posted by FJT at 8:41 PM on June 12, 2017
It makes it difficult to continue these stories, when every feature the characters possess gets supersized with time.
This is why I gave up on the current Spider-Man run. It's gone from Peter is a smart kid who made his own web shooters to Peter is one of the smartest people on the planet he's just too busy being Spider-Man to Peter is pretty much Tony Stark now with his own multinational tech company and a bunch of armored suits and vehicles he's invented.
posted by thecjm at 9:08 PM on June 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
This is why I gave up on the current Spider-Man run. It's gone from Peter is a smart kid who made his own web shooters to Peter is one of the smartest people on the planet he's just too busy being Spider-Man to Peter is pretty much Tony Stark now with his own multinational tech company and a bunch of armored suits and vehicles he's invented.
posted by thecjm at 9:08 PM on June 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
Let's see the caped crusader fix that.
Alfred jots on a napkin: "WAYNE FOR AMERICA"
MGGA: "Make Gotham Great Again"
posted by Samizdata at 9:17 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
Alfred jots on a napkin: "WAYNE FOR AMERICA"
MGGA: "Make Gotham Great Again"
posted by Samizdata at 9:17 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
The act of taking a single (often minor) action or trait of a character within a work and exaggerating it more and more over time until it completely consumes the character. Most always, the trait/action becomes completely outlandish and it becomes their defining characteristic. Sitcoms and Sitcom characters are particularly susceptible to this, as are peripheral characters in shows with long runs.
Which is when they get great.
Man, fans suck the fun out of everything
Are you in a band?
posted by bongo_x at 9:40 PM on June 12, 2017
Which is when they get great.
Man, fans suck the fun out of everything
Are you in a band?
posted by bongo_x at 9:40 PM on June 12, 2017
Bathman isn't as rich as you think. He has certain ... needs.
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:05 PM on June 12, 2017
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:05 PM on June 12, 2017
It's gone from Peter is a smart kid who made his own web shooters to Peter is one of the smartest people on the planet he's just too busy being Spider-Man to Peter is pretty much Tony Stark now with his own multinational tech company and a bunch of armored suits and vehicles he's invented.
That's not supersizing, that's simple extrapolation. I mean, look at what web fluid DOES; it's pretty much a near-magical material, nearly as extreme in its own way as Iron Man's costume. And Peter invented that in high school. It honestly doesn't make much sense that someone who can invent web fluid, not to mention the shooters that can release it, would be working as a poor cub reporter. Which is why the Toby McGuire movies went and made the web shooters part of Peter.
posted by happyroach at 11:09 PM on June 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
That's not supersizing, that's simple extrapolation. I mean, look at what web fluid DOES; it's pretty much a near-magical material, nearly as extreme in its own way as Iron Man's costume. And Peter invented that in high school. It honestly doesn't make much sense that someone who can invent web fluid, not to mention the shooters that can release it, would be working as a poor cub reporter. Which is why the Toby McGuire movies went and made the web shooters part of Peter.
posted by happyroach at 11:09 PM on June 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
Look after the giant pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.
posted by biffa at 11:38 PM on June 12, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by biffa at 11:38 PM on June 12, 2017 [9 favorites]
I can think of a ton of Batman stories where calling him The Dark Knight means "wears armor and beats the shit out of people and monsters," but hardly any where it means "wealthy landed gentry who owns huge amounts of local industry and the loyalty of numerous additional fighters." I wonder if it means anything that the only Marvel character to appear in about as many hit films as Batman is Iron Man. How badly does America want to believe that a billionaire could be here to help?
[remembers entire second half of 2016]
Nevermind.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:49 PM on June 12, 2017 [8 favorites]
[remembers entire second half of 2016]
Nevermind.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:49 PM on June 12, 2017 [8 favorites]
Has everyone read City of Villains: Why I don’t trust Batman?
posted by pharm at 1:47 AM on June 13, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by pharm at 1:47 AM on June 13, 2017 [6 favorites]
passive-aggressive Batman vs. Superman
Nothing to add here, just wanted to say that I'd watch the hell out of this, I bet it would be hilarious.
posted by mhoye at 4:59 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
Nothing to add here, just wanted to say that I'd watch the hell out of this, I bet it would be hilarious.
posted by mhoye at 4:59 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
Spider-Man according to Marvel these day - his intelligence and growth as a person and hero means he can go from sad-sack photojournalist to running a mutli-national tech company, but having him be an adult who is married goes against the core of the character and has to be annulled by the devil.
posted by thecjm at 5:53 AM on June 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 5:53 AM on June 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
It honestly doesn't make much sense that someone who can invent web fluid, not to mention the shooters that can release it, would be working as a poor cub reporter.
The people who invent things aren't necessarily the people who make a shitload of money off of them; ask Sir Tim Berners-Lee. (I mean, I don't think that TimBL is poor, exactly, but if he'd monetized the WWW, he might literally be a trillionaire.) Per thecjm, the paradigm that Dan Slott et al. are working off right now is that Peter is filthy rich and has no pressing personal commitments, which is precisely opposite of the character's historical core characteristics.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:32 AM on June 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
The people who invent things aren't necessarily the people who make a shitload of money off of them; ask Sir Tim Berners-Lee. (I mean, I don't think that TimBL is poor, exactly, but if he'd monetized the WWW, he might literally be a trillionaire.) Per thecjm, the paradigm that Dan Slott et al. are working off right now is that Peter is filthy rich and has no pressing personal commitments, which is precisely opposite of the character's historical core characteristics.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:32 AM on June 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
He gets residuals on gay Batman fanfic?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:13 AM on June 13, 2017
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:13 AM on June 13, 2017
but hardly any where it means "wealthy landed gentry who owns huge amounts of local industry and the loyalty of numerous additional fighters."
EatTheWeak
The Batman stories from the mid 90s to the early 2000s were actually like this. They had Batman building up a relatively large network of allies and assistants and institutions in Gotham.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:57 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
EatTheWeak
The Batman stories from the mid 90s to the early 2000s were actually like this. They had Batman building up a relatively large network of allies and assistants and institutions in Gotham.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:57 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
As you might expect from a company owned by someone with a famous code against killing, Wayne has an emphasis on nonlethal weapons—a handy corporate policy that also allows the guy who owns the company to figure out new ways to knock out Mr. Freeze or Killer Croc.
I will note that a good number of non-lethal weapons are prohibited under the laws of war. Tear gas, blinding weapons, tranquilizing agents, etc. Not to make to much of a big deal about it, but this makes Bruce Wayne a war criminal. Not on the same level as massacring civilians, but definitely enough to make any visits to the Netherlands uncomfortable.
posted by Hactar at 8:01 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
I will note that a good number of non-lethal weapons are prohibited under the laws of war. Tear gas, blinding weapons, tranquilizing agents, etc. Not to make to much of a big deal about it, but this makes Bruce Wayne a war criminal. Not on the same level as massacring civilians, but definitely enough to make any visits to the Netherlands uncomfortable.
posted by Hactar at 8:01 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
...but having him be an adult who is married goes against the core of the character and has to be annulled by the devil.
Seriously; this the flaw with mainstream comic characterization: the periodic perennial "Let's get him/her back to their roots!" of comic characters. Jeez, let a character grow! Why can't Peter Parker be a dad? Why can't Steve Rogers run for office? Why can't Reed Richards and Sue Storm get divorced? Why can't all these things happen permanently ? If we accept that it's 40+ yo people, as well as younger folks, reading these comics, why can't we have truly radical change in a character, as it is in our own lives from time to time? Those old comics are still there if you pine for a particular characterization.
posted by eclectist at 8:08 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
Seriously; this the flaw with mainstream comic characterization: the periodic perennial "Let's get him/her back to their roots!" of comic characters. Jeez, let a character grow! Why can't Peter Parker be a dad? Why can't Steve Rogers run for office? Why can't Reed Richards and Sue Storm get divorced? Why can't all these things happen permanently ? If we accept that it's 40+ yo people, as well as younger folks, reading these comics, why can't we have truly radical change in a character, as it is in our own lives from time to time? Those old comics are still there if you pine for a particular characterization.
posted by eclectist at 8:08 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
I will note that a good number of non-lethal weapons are prohibited under the laws of war. Tear gas, blinding weapons, tranquilizing agents, etc. Not to make to much of a big deal about it, but this makes Bruce Wayne a war criminal. Not on the same level as massacring civilians, but definitely enough to make any visits to the Netherlands uncomfortable.
....are you saying that making/using these items are war crimes when used outside a military context? That a police force using tear gas is committing war crimes?
This is an honest question, not snark, but I am capable of using Google, so...focusing on tear gas: use by police and for self-defense is not illegal, and the military is allowed to practice with it and use it for riot control.
Batman is already outside the law by acting as a vigilante, but from the above I wouldn't put him in the war criminal category if he uses tear gas. I'd guess there may be similar provisos for the other devices mentioned (legally questionable, but not war crimes when used by a private citizen).
posted by Four Ds at 8:16 AM on June 13, 2017
....are you saying that making/using these items are war crimes when used outside a military context? That a police force using tear gas is committing war crimes?
This is an honest question, not snark, but I am capable of using Google, so...focusing on tear gas: use by police and for self-defense is not illegal, and the military is allowed to practice with it and use it for riot control.
Batman is already outside the law by acting as a vigilante, but from the above I wouldn't put him in the war criminal category if he uses tear gas. I'd guess there may be similar provisos for the other devices mentioned (legally questionable, but not war crimes when used by a private citizen).
posted by Four Ds at 8:16 AM on June 13, 2017
Since nobody has posted this yet: SMBC on Batman
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:23 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:23 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
I will note that a good number of non-lethal weapons are prohibited under the laws of war. Tear gas, blinding weapons, tranquilizing agents, etc.
Tear gas and tranquilizing agents are permitted for law enforcement purposes. Blinding weapons are not prohibited; permanently blinding weapons are.
But to speak to your larger assertion, the Geneva Conventions and their associated protocols don't apply to Bruce Wayne/Batman, because he is not a state actor, nor in a military. Might he be an international criminal whom the International Court of Justice would claim jurisdiction over? It's possible. But they wouldn't do it under the "laws of war", because those don't apply to Batman in any meaningful way.
posted by Etrigan at 8:41 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
Tear gas and tranquilizing agents are permitted for law enforcement purposes. Blinding weapons are not prohibited; permanently blinding weapons are.
But to speak to your larger assertion, the Geneva Conventions and their associated protocols don't apply to Bruce Wayne/Batman, because he is not a state actor, nor in a military. Might he be an international criminal whom the International Court of Justice would claim jurisdiction over? It's possible. But they wouldn't do it under the "laws of war", because those don't apply to Batman in any meaningful way.
posted by Etrigan at 8:41 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
having him be an adult who is married goes against the core of the character and has to be annulled by the devil
I'm glad you brought this up, because I was fixating on it this morning. You know what's the most ridiculous thing about that story? Of all the reasons to sell your marriage to the devil, you do it to save the life of Aunt May? Peter, I don't know if you noticed, but she was easily 150 years old back in 1962. I realize that Marvel has its weird sliding time-scale, but by 2007 she's got to be living on borrowed time. Sure, she went and got shot, and that's not going to help, but...you gotta let her go sometime, buddy.
posted by zeusianfog at 8:46 AM on June 13, 2017 [6 favorites]
I'm glad you brought this up, because I was fixating on it this morning. You know what's the most ridiculous thing about that story? Of all the reasons to sell your marriage to the devil, you do it to save the life of Aunt May? Peter, I don't know if you noticed, but she was easily 150 years old back in 1962. I realize that Marvel has its weird sliding time-scale, but by 2007 she's got to be living on borrowed time. Sure, she went and got shot, and that's not going to help, but...you gotta let her go sometime, buddy.
posted by zeusianfog at 8:46 AM on June 13, 2017 [6 favorites]
I was saying that by supplying these weapons to militaries around the world, he is facilitating war crimes. They are legal for police forces to use. But this is a military division, which presumably sells weapons to armed forces. Weapons that violate the Geneva convention.
posted by Hactar at 9:14 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Hactar at 9:14 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
Volume!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 9:23 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 9:23 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
I was saying that by supplying these weapons to militaries around the world, he is facilitating war crimes.
That still doesn't make him a war criminal. Even militaries have legitimate and perfectly legal uses for various less-than-lethal weapons and systems.
Weapons that violate the Geneva convention.
Of the three examples you gave, two and a half do not violate any Geneva convention or protocol in and of themselves.
posted by Etrigan at 9:27 AM on June 13, 2017
That still doesn't make him a war criminal. Even militaries have legitimate and perfectly legal uses for various less-than-lethal weapons and systems.
Weapons that violate the Geneva convention.
Of the three examples you gave, two and a half do not violate any Geneva convention or protocol in and of themselves.
posted by Etrigan at 9:27 AM on June 13, 2017
I bet he gets a fair amount of money and property through some sort of civil asset forfeiture kickback arrangement with commissioner Gordon. The criminals he captures aren't exactly destitute themselves.
posted by TedW at 9:41 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by TedW at 9:41 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
I bet he gets a fair amount of money and property through some sort of civil asset forfeiture kickback arrangement with commissioner Gordon. The criminals he captures aren't exactly destitute themselves.
I like this idea. Most comic writers, even the engaged ones, can be politically naive. There have been stories about heroes enriching themselves with sponsorship deals, licensing, and the like (Booster Gold springs to mind) but I can't recall a story where an anti-hero was acting to enrich themselves in a way that mirrors the kind of kickbacks, forfeitures, and general blackmail that fictional and sometimes real police and politicians can get up to.
posted by thecjm at 10:18 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
I like this idea. Most comic writers, even the engaged ones, can be politically naive. There have been stories about heroes enriching themselves with sponsorship deals, licensing, and the like (Booster Gold springs to mind) but I can't recall a story where an anti-hero was acting to enrich themselves in a way that mirrors the kind of kickbacks, forfeitures, and general blackmail that fictional and sometimes real police and politicians can get up to.
posted by thecjm at 10:18 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
If we accept that it's 40+ yo people, as well as younger folks, reading these comics, why can't we have truly radical change in a character, as it is in our own lives from time to time?
I was actually thinking about this while showering this morning, about the fundamental tension in superhero comics post Lee/Kirby/Ditko, between keeping a series faithful to its core concept and the demands of continuity.
On the one hand, you want that character growth of course, as reader and creator both, to find new things to do with your heroes. Tony Stark became a lot more interesting and sympathetic once he became an alcoholic, while Peter Parker over the decades grew from young high school nerd to fairly confident photo journalist with his own book, married to (one of his) high school sweetheart(s).
All good and fair, but at some point the character is too far from his core concept, too much cruft has accomulated and Peter Parker as rich uber inventor is a bridge too far for me. Parker was always an everyman, a guy struggling in his day to day life as well as a superhero, mistrusted by the same people he saved. Being an Avenger doesn't work with that.
There also the sheer weight of continuity that weights titles and universes down. Remember that story where the Fantastic Four went back in time to find a cure for Alice's blindness and ran into pharaoh Rama Tut, who turned out to be a time traveller and would later become Kang the Conqueror?
Well, did you know Dr Strange was there as well, on his own time travel journey seeking out the past lives of his then current sweetheart? Or, that lurking just to the left of the panels, the West Coast Avengers were mucking about as well? All of which is fun, but try and explain it to normal people.
No wonder you get reboots.
Of course the other extreme is a manga like Detective Conan, running since 1994 (1996 in anime), where the teenage super detective protagonist is poisoned and nearly died, only to revert to a young child. Now solving crimes as a kid and looking out for the organisation that poisoned him, all of his 800+ cases or so have taken place in less than a year real time. That's the sort of approach where you don't think to much about it and continuity and character growth only exists if it matters for the current story...
posted by MartinWisse at 12:22 PM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
I was actually thinking about this while showering this morning, about the fundamental tension in superhero comics post Lee/Kirby/Ditko, between keeping a series faithful to its core concept and the demands of continuity.
On the one hand, you want that character growth of course, as reader and creator both, to find new things to do with your heroes. Tony Stark became a lot more interesting and sympathetic once he became an alcoholic, while Peter Parker over the decades grew from young high school nerd to fairly confident photo journalist with his own book, married to (one of his) high school sweetheart(s).
All good and fair, but at some point the character is too far from his core concept, too much cruft has accomulated and Peter Parker as rich uber inventor is a bridge too far for me. Parker was always an everyman, a guy struggling in his day to day life as well as a superhero, mistrusted by the same people he saved. Being an Avenger doesn't work with that.
There also the sheer weight of continuity that weights titles and universes down. Remember that story where the Fantastic Four went back in time to find a cure for Alice's blindness and ran into pharaoh Rama Tut, who turned out to be a time traveller and would later become Kang the Conqueror?
Well, did you know Dr Strange was there as well, on his own time travel journey seeking out the past lives of his then current sweetheart? Or, that lurking just to the left of the panels, the West Coast Avengers were mucking about as well? All of which is fun, but try and explain it to normal people.
No wonder you get reboots.
Of course the other extreme is a manga like Detective Conan, running since 1994 (1996 in anime), where the teenage super detective protagonist is poisoned and nearly died, only to revert to a young child. Now solving crimes as a kid and looking out for the organisation that poisoned him, all of his 800+ cases or so have taken place in less than a year real time. That's the sort of approach where you don't think to much about it and continuity and character growth only exists if it matters for the current story...
posted by MartinWisse at 12:22 PM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
I like this idea. Most comic writers, even the engaged ones, can be politically naive. There have been stories about heroes enriching themselves with sponsorship deals, licensing, and the like (Booster Gold springs to mind) but I can't recall a story where an anti-hero was acting to enrich themselves in a way that mirrors the kind of kickbacks, forfeitures, and general blackmail that fictional and sometimes real police and politicians can get up to.
posted by thecjm at 10:18 AM on June 13
It's not exactly what you're after but since this is a Batman discussion, Jason Todd (Robin II), during his evil Red Hood/pretend crime lord/post-Lazarus-pit-madness-days essentially funded his operations with the ill-gotten-gains of the criminals he took down.
posted by sardonyx at 4:06 PM on June 13, 2017
posted by thecjm at 10:18 AM on June 13
It's not exactly what you're after but since this is a Batman discussion, Jason Todd (Robin II), during his evil Red Hood/pretend crime lord/post-Lazarus-pit-madness-days essentially funded his operations with the ill-gotten-gains of the criminals he took down.
posted by sardonyx at 4:06 PM on June 13, 2017
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posted by leotrotsky at 4:20 PM on June 12, 2017 [3 favorites]