Massacre in Mexico
June 13, 2017 10:03 AM Subscribe
ProPublica/National Geographic: The inside story of a cartel’s deadly assault on a Mexican town near the Texas border — and the U.S. drug operation that sparked it. [en Español]
It's only because the Cartels have a deliberate foreign policy of keeping the violence south of the border that the US doesn't have troops on the ground in Mexico.
posted by Bee'sWing at 11:43 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 11:43 AM on June 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
sicario is worth a viewing
posted by j_curiouser at 12:10 PM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by j_curiouser at 12:10 PM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
The thing that really bothers me, as an American, is knowing that my country is directly responsible for this. The cartels are the direct result of bad acting, in the form of the "war on drugs" by the USA.
If it weren't for our drug policy the cartels would not exist.
And I see no way for Mexico to be rid of the cartels as long as the USA continues its war on drugs and thus makes the cartels very rich and powerful. The flow of money to the cartels from American drug users is greater than any anti-cartel funding that Mexico can reasonably put up without wrecking the rest of its economy. The US market for drugs is so big it can overwhelm virtually any national spending outside the top three economies.
It's estimated that the USA spends around $100 billion on illegal drugs every year, that's almost 10% of Mexico's GDP, or 50% of its Federal budget. Even if only half of that $100 billion is going to the cartels that's still the cartels getting 5% of Mexico's GDP and 25% of its Federal budget.
Mexico spends around $7.6 billion on its military. The cartels can, in other words, easily spend enough to outgun the entire Mexican army and still have plenty left over for mansions.
I hate to say it, but it seems to me that this is simply not a problem that can be solved by Mexico, since it is not really a problem internal to Mexico. It's America exporting the fallout of its War on Drugs to a country that can't afford to clean up our mess. The only way to resolve this is for Americans to give up the War on Drugs.
posted by sotonohito at 12:19 PM on June 13, 2017 [24 favorites]
If it weren't for our drug policy the cartels would not exist.
And I see no way for Mexico to be rid of the cartels as long as the USA continues its war on drugs and thus makes the cartels very rich and powerful. The flow of money to the cartels from American drug users is greater than any anti-cartel funding that Mexico can reasonably put up without wrecking the rest of its economy. The US market for drugs is so big it can overwhelm virtually any national spending outside the top three economies.
It's estimated that the USA spends around $100 billion on illegal drugs every year, that's almost 10% of Mexico's GDP, or 50% of its Federal budget. Even if only half of that $100 billion is going to the cartels that's still the cartels getting 5% of Mexico's GDP and 25% of its Federal budget.
Mexico spends around $7.6 billion on its military. The cartels can, in other words, easily spend enough to outgun the entire Mexican army and still have plenty left over for mansions.
I hate to say it, but it seems to me that this is simply not a problem that can be solved by Mexico, since it is not really a problem internal to Mexico. It's America exporting the fallout of its War on Drugs to a country that can't afford to clean up our mess. The only way to resolve this is for Americans to give up the War on Drugs.
posted by sotonohito at 12:19 PM on June 13, 2017 [24 favorites]
This stuff has been going on as long as I can remember.
In the 80s my mother's hometown had been stable for decades, with the occasional turf war that would leave a couple narcos dead. Then the DEA started playing favorites, leaking providing weapons to the Guadalajara cartel. Then the Guadalajara cartel killed a DEA agents, so the DEA allied with the Sinaloa cartel and started leaking them intel.
The Guadalajara cartel got paranoid trying to find the snitches, and whole families were massacred or disappeared.
So yeah, it is stupid to leak Intel to the Mexican police, it is also stupid to give Intel to the DEA.
As we used to say then: The peso is not worth the paper it is printed on, just like American treaties.
posted by Dr. Curare at 12:20 PM on June 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
In the 80s my mother's hometown had been stable for decades, with the occasional turf war that would leave a couple narcos dead. Then the DEA started playing favorites, leaking providing weapons to the Guadalajara cartel. Then the Guadalajara cartel killed a DEA agents, so the DEA allied with the Sinaloa cartel and started leaking them intel.
The Guadalajara cartel got paranoid trying to find the snitches, and whole families were massacred or disappeared.
So yeah, it is stupid to leak Intel to the Mexican police, it is also stupid to give Intel to the DEA.
As we used to say then: The peso is not worth the paper it is printed on, just like American treaties.
posted by Dr. Curare at 12:20 PM on June 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Btw, I have been accused of being a conspiracy theorist, but all this has been in the open for a long time.
No time to do an USA Dirty War in Latin America 101, but if you look up the murder of DEA agents Camarena you can start following links and pulling a lot of thread.
posted by Dr. Curare at 12:23 PM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
No time to do an USA Dirty War in Latin America 101, but if you look up the murder of DEA agents Camarena you can start following links and pulling a lot of thread.
posted by Dr. Curare at 12:23 PM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
If it weren't for our drug policy the cartels would not exist
Complete and utter nonsense.
posted by lstanley at 1:43 PM on June 13, 2017
Complete and utter nonsense.
posted by lstanley at 1:43 PM on June 13, 2017
.
posted by doctornemo at 2:36 PM on June 13, 2017
posted by doctornemo at 2:36 PM on June 13, 2017
Complete and utter nonsense.
Really? Purdue and other big pharma companies do some shady shit, but they don't gun down thousands of people or any other violence, really. I mean, I guess you could argue that having people OD on their pills when they use them other than as directed is a form of violence, but I'm not buying it.
Clearly, legal drugs, even when widely abused, don't cause anywhere near the level of trouble that (some of) the ones we outlaw do.
posted by wierdo at 3:35 PM on June 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Really? Purdue and other big pharma companies do some shady shit, but they don't gun down thousands of people or any other violence, really. I mean, I guess you could argue that having people OD on their pills when they use them other than as directed is a form of violence, but I'm not buying it.
Clearly, legal drugs, even when widely abused, don't cause anywhere near the level of trouble that (some of) the ones we outlaw do.
posted by wierdo at 3:35 PM on June 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Drug legalization was a common debate theme in high school and college in Mexico.
The final argument was always: it will never happen here because the inevitable USA's trade restrictions will kill the country.
So yeah, between that and feeding weapons and intel to the favorite cartel of the day, the USA has a lot to do with the growth and stupid amount of power that the cartels have.
posted by Dr. Curare at 3:51 PM on June 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
The final argument was always: it will never happen here because the inevitable USA's trade restrictions will kill the country.
So yeah, between that and feeding weapons and intel to the favorite cartel of the day, the USA has a lot to do with the growth and stupid amount of power that the cartels have.
posted by Dr. Curare at 3:51 PM on June 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Complete and utter nonsense.
You know that the first Mexican drug cartel was a Prohibition-era bootlegging gang, right?
posted by JauntyFedora at 5:51 PM on June 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
You know that the first Mexican drug cartel was a Prohibition-era bootlegging gang, right?
posted by JauntyFedora at 5:51 PM on June 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
This isn't a reason for not reassessing our awful drug control policies but however the cartels got started they are not going to just go away peacefully if legalization occurs, any more than organized crime in the USA disappeared when Prohibition ended. They already have diversified into many other criminal enterprises (e.g. kidnapping, extortion, human trafficking, etc.) It's even conceivable that, deprived of the revenue they derive from drug trafficking that they might resort to behaviors that cause even *more* misery to Mexican civilian populations. The time for easy answers is long since past -- the cartels are way beyond that point now.
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:44 PM on June 14, 2017
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:44 PM on June 14, 2017
If you want to understand what Mexico faces, one of the best, clearest sources of information and analysis is Alejandro Hope. He writes for several newspapers and think tanks on both sides of the border. Here's an interview in English: The Heat discusses Mexico’s drug cartels and ongoing violence
posted by Cobalt at 3:30 PM on June 14, 2017
posted by Cobalt at 3:30 PM on June 14, 2017
lstanley, your rebuttal lacks a certain credibility, as it's stated with no evidence.
I'd argue that not just the govt's war on drugs, but the U.S. appetite for drugs, is the cause of this violence.
And then we blame it on "them", because they are not "civilized" properly.
It's awful.
posted by allthinky at 8:58 AM on June 15, 2017
I'd argue that not just the govt's war on drugs, but the U.S. appetite for drugs, is the cause of this violence.
And then we blame it on "them", because they are not "civilized" properly.
It's awful.
posted by allthinky at 8:58 AM on June 15, 2017
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When will they learn the difference between when to use who, and when to use whom?
posted by Oyéah at 10:46 AM on June 13, 2017