What If Obama Said It?
August 5, 2017 7:22 AM Subscribe
From Obama's mouth, a suggestion to eat more vegetables was taken to mean that vegetables are contaminated with gay commie flouride.
Say what you will about Trump, but he isn't wrong that he could shoot someone in the street and his team would give zero shits. It's gotten farcical enough that I'm half convinced he's a plant designed to force the final implosion of the Republican Party as we know it. The level of incompetence is so high that it beggars belief. In reality, the Trump Organization has never been about actually doing anything. All the work is done by the people who pay for the name. Trump and his creeple have no experience running a business that actually produces anything, so it's little surprise that they showed up expecting everyone else to do the actual work while they just stamped their name on the cover page of the reports and press releases.
posted by wierdo at 7:40 AM on August 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Say what you will about Trump, but he isn't wrong that he could shoot someone in the street and his team would give zero shits. It's gotten farcical enough that I'm half convinced he's a plant designed to force the final implosion of the Republican Party as we know it. The level of incompetence is so high that it beggars belief. In reality, the Trump Organization has never been about actually doing anything. All the work is done by the people who pay for the name. Trump and his creeple have no experience running a business that actually produces anything, so it's little surprise that they showed up expecting everyone else to do the actual work while they just stamped their name on the cover page of the reports and press releases.
posted by wierdo at 7:40 AM on August 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
A Democrat who professed his admiration for a Russian dictator while campaigning would never have been elected. The Republican cries of OH MY GOD THE EVIL EMPIRE THE TREE OF LIBERTY would have been THUNDEROUS. Likewise a Democrat who was a confessed serial sexual assaulter would never have been elected. A Democrat Attorney General who couldn't get through his own confirmation hearings without perjuring himself would have been run out of town on a rail. And on and on...
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:46 AM on August 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:46 AM on August 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
What purpose does this serve?
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 7:47 AM on August 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 7:47 AM on August 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Apparently the definition of white privilege is being able to talk about grabbing pussies and how big your dick is and still getting elected president.
He forgot that's also a good definition of misogynist.
posted by Talez at 7:48 AM on August 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
He forgot that's also a good definition of misogynist.
posted by Talez at 7:48 AM on August 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
What purpose does this serve?
Demonstrating the venomous double-standard that's allowing Trump to run roughshod over civic norms? Exposing the utter dishonesty of his enablers in Congress? Allowing for a few moments of levity in the midst of despair? Killing some airtime?
What was the purpose of the question?
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:59 AM on August 5, 2017 [62 favorites]
Demonstrating the venomous double-standard that's allowing Trump to run roughshod over civic norms? Exposing the utter dishonesty of his enablers in Congress? Allowing for a few moments of levity in the midst of despair? Killing some airtime?
What was the purpose of the question?
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:59 AM on August 5, 2017 [62 favorites]
It's gotten farcical enough that I'm half convinced he's a plant designed to force the final implosion of the Republican Party as we know it. The level of incompetence is so high that it beggars belief.
The same speculation was floated about W Bush, with the same disbelief of levels of incompetence. My conclusion from the elections of those two is that the American electorate has no standards whatever when it chooses a President. As for the shooting-in-5th-Avenue thing, Dick Cheney set precedence, and got his victim to apologize to boot.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:00 AM on August 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
The same speculation was floated about W Bush, with the same disbelief of levels of incompetence. My conclusion from the elections of those two is that the American electorate has no standards whatever when it chooses a President. As for the shooting-in-5th-Avenue thing, Dick Cheney set precedence, and got his victim to apologize to boot.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:00 AM on August 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
I was really expecting to see that synthesized Obama system used to get public reactions at first, but then I wonder what the legality of that would be.
posted by lucidium at 8:35 AM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by lucidium at 8:35 AM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I watch Maher every Friday (on YouTube) and find his show penetrating, acerbic and biting. His views on Islam and some other topics though are reactionary. I am surprised he is so disliked here. That said, yesterday's program (after a month of absence) was unusually weak - especially the horrible 10 minutes with Ralph fukin Reed - and the only good part was this bit with Obama
posted by growabrain at 8:41 AM on August 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by growabrain at 8:41 AM on August 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I watch Maher every Friday (on YouTube) and find his show penetrating, acerbic and biting. His views on Islam and some other topics though are reactionary. I am surprised he is so disliked here.
Most likely it is because his views on Islam and some other topics are reactionary.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:44 AM on August 5, 2017 [63 favorites]
Most likely it is because his views on Islam and some other topics are reactionary.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:44 AM on August 5, 2017 [63 favorites]
growabrain: interesting. It thought it was a pretty strong comeback, especially the opening monologue which obviously had time to ferment during the break. But yeah, I watch him every week too, and he's problematic, but he's also been bringing out good discussion and speaking truth to power (okay, mostly mocking the powerful) for decades. I was watching him back in the Politically Incorrect days.
posted by hippybear at 8:49 AM on August 5, 2017
posted by hippybear at 8:49 AM on August 5, 2017
Also, Maher does stuff like the Reed segment deliberately, in order to get his audience out of their bubble and hear what "the other side" is saying and thinking a bit. I enjoyed the interview, not because I support Reed but because he's well-spoken and I don't dip my toe into that particular pond that often.
posted by hippybear at 8:51 AM on August 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:51 AM on August 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Most likely it is because his views on Islam and some other topics are reactionary.
He's also one of those "there should be no consequences for free speech" assholes and he perpetually wants to be seen as the smartest fucking person in the room and will shit on anyone to look the part.
posted by Talez at 8:51 AM on August 5, 2017 [28 favorites]
He's also one of those "there should be no consequences for free speech" assholes and he perpetually wants to be seen as the smartest fucking person in the room and will shit on anyone to look the part.
posted by Talez at 8:51 AM on August 5, 2017 [28 favorites]
Demonstrating the venomous double-standard that's allowing Trump to run roughshod over civic norms?
While everything you've said is true, it's equally true that if the "what if the other side did this" argument would change a single person's mind, we wouldn't be here.
One side of this discussion does not care about truth, honesty, dignity or indeed any of the things that form the real basis of democratic norms or civil society. All they care about is how to use those things a cudgel against the other side. Arguments like Maher's presuppose that the Republican party has some sort of moral or ethical core to appeal to, or that as an institution the GOP cares about anything but a victorious Republican party, which is clearly not the case.
posted by mhoye at 9:06 AM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
While everything you've said is true, it's equally true that if the "what if the other side did this" argument would change a single person's mind, we wouldn't be here.
One side of this discussion does not care about truth, honesty, dignity or indeed any of the things that form the real basis of democratic norms or civil society. All they care about is how to use those things a cudgel against the other side. Arguments like Maher's presuppose that the Republican party has some sort of moral or ethical core to appeal to, or that as an institution the GOP cares about anything but a victorious Republican party, which is clearly not the case.
posted by mhoye at 9:06 AM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
While everything you've said is true, it's equally true that if the "what if the other side did this" argument would change a single person's mind, we wouldn't be here.
Conservative minds aren't what needs changing. It's faith in the notion that there is a larger guiding conservative principle and that if we can find a compromise that satisfies that principle and achieves our goal, we can all live happily ever after.
It's bullshit. No conservative cares about anything they say they care about. The Deficit ? We're paying for a wall. And two wars. Family values ? With a thrice married adulterating pussy grabber. And so on - Conservatives are full of shit and things like this serve to illuminate that basic fact.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:15 AM on August 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
Conservative minds aren't what needs changing. It's faith in the notion that there is a larger guiding conservative principle and that if we can find a compromise that satisfies that principle and achieves our goal, we can all live happily ever after.
It's bullshit. No conservative cares about anything they say they care about. The Deficit ? We're paying for a wall. And two wars. Family values ? With a thrice married adulterating pussy grabber. And so on - Conservatives are full of shit and things like this serve to illuminate that basic fact.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:15 AM on August 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
I don't think the fact that I dislike a rabid Islamophobe should surprise anyone. Instead, the fact that people forgive rabid Islamophobia should be surprising.
posted by maxsparber at 9:20 AM on August 5, 2017 [27 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 9:20 AM on August 5, 2017 [27 favorites]
Arguments like Maher's presuppose that the Republican party has some sort of moral or ethical core to appeal to
Why? I mean, isn't this skit about demonstrating the exact opposite?
posted by howfar at 9:22 AM on August 5, 2017
Why? I mean, isn't this skit about demonstrating the exact opposite?
posted by howfar at 9:22 AM on August 5, 2017
I mean, unless you are the sort of person who reads A Modest Proposal and points out it's pointless because you couldn't actually feed people by eating babies.
posted by howfar at 9:25 AM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by howfar at 9:25 AM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah. I have a really hard time getting past Maher's Islamaphobia and new atheist dogmatism in general. Those guys claim to be all about science and reason, but their beliefs are at least decades behind the current scientific understanding especially when it comes to their simplistic conceptions of determinism, physicalism, and genetics. It kills me because a lot of my liberal friends seem to see Maher as some kind of standard bearer for liberalism, but I see him as one of the faces on the left of the same underlying Social Darwinist and epistemological closure craving tendencies that fuel the alt-right crowd.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:44 AM on August 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 9:44 AM on August 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
Wish I didn't feel that way, tbh, as it makes for a lot of socially awkward moments.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:45 AM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by saulgoodman at 9:45 AM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't forgive Maher anything. I admit he has his flaws. I still watch him because I get more out of watching him than by hating on him. I guess I'm okay with my comedian-commentators not being people I agree with 100%.
posted by hippybear at 9:49 AM on August 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:49 AM on August 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
Maher is an imperfect person and I've never really felt he believed he is above criticism. His whole schtick is to take the kernel of truth that he feels is important to say and throw it out there to get a reaction. There are few on the left who are as effective as he is.
I don't find him agreeable but I typically agree with him. I'm glad he has a show and that he's getting paid. If nothing else, it's good to have regular reminders that I'm not the only one who recognizes we live in Bizarro United States.
I can't keep being involved in these fights myself, I have too much outrage fatigue.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:58 AM on August 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't find him agreeable but I typically agree with him. I'm glad he has a show and that he's getting paid. If nothing else, it's good to have regular reminders that I'm not the only one who recognizes we live in Bizarro United States.
I can't keep being involved in these fights myself, I have too much outrage fatigue.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:58 AM on August 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wish I could get past it, but I'm pretty sure there's a little picture of Maher in a lot of more moderate and conservative people's private visual dictionaries next to the entry for "smug, self-satisfied, and ideologically intolerant liberals." Plus his humor comes across as mostly mean spirited and pointedly unnecessarily emotionally incendiary to people who don't already subscribe to his worldview and we need more effective liberal evangelists who can appeal to independents and people on the fence and transcend divisions rather than deepening them, in my opinion, but YMMV and maybe I'm just full of shit and am too stupid to know it.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:03 AM on August 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 10:03 AM on August 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
I got turned off by his smarmy sexism long ago.
posted by LindsayIrene at 10:14 AM on August 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 10:14 AM on August 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
My conclusion from the elections of those two is that the American electorate has no standards whatever when it chooses a President.
I think it's more that this is the kind of behavior that happens when a critical mass of a population watches TV 4-5 hours daily for a few decades. Trump is an externalization of the kind of reality/character that works or is interesting (for some definitions of that word) on television but disastrous in actual reality.
I have a really hard time getting past Maher's Islamaphobia and new atheist dogmatism in general.
I agree very much, but am now at a point where I'm past not only not shooting the messenger but not really even caring who the messenger is. There are too few voices out there noticeably speaking from any version of a secular, humanist perspective for any to be shut out because the speaker is problematic or challenging. I try to simply agree with or champion ideas and perspectives and avoid the distraction and fallacious arguing that results from attacking messengers.
(Within reason, of course. Degree matters as much as kind.)
posted by LooseFilter at 10:15 AM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think it's more that this is the kind of behavior that happens when a critical mass of a population watches TV 4-5 hours daily for a few decades. Trump is an externalization of the kind of reality/character that works or is interesting (for some definitions of that word) on television but disastrous in actual reality.
I have a really hard time getting past Maher's Islamaphobia and new atheist dogmatism in general.
I agree very much, but am now at a point where I'm past not only not shooting the messenger but not really even caring who the messenger is. There are too few voices out there noticeably speaking from any version of a secular, humanist perspective for any to be shut out because the speaker is problematic or challenging. I try to simply agree with or champion ideas and perspectives and avoid the distraction and fallacious arguing that results from attacking messengers.
(Within reason, of course. Degree matters as much as kind.)
posted by LooseFilter at 10:15 AM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am surprised he is so disliked here.
Congratulations on successfully derailing the discussion into Why is Bill Maher bad and why is MetaFilter bad for hating him before anyone said anything bad about Bill Maher.
posted by Etrigan at 10:20 AM on August 5, 2017 [20 favorites]
Congratulations on successfully derailing the discussion into Why is Bill Maher bad and why is MetaFilter bad for hating him before anyone said anything bad about Bill Maher.
posted by Etrigan at 10:20 AM on August 5, 2017 [20 favorites]
we need more effective liberal evangelists who can appeal to independents and people on the fence and transcend divisions rather than deepening them
On non-preview, totally agree with this, too. It seems like we're at a stage--collectively, socially--where many people who agree with socially progressive perspectives and values still have giant blind spots, unconscious biases and the like, where they don't practice their own ideals well, or at all. Rather than judge and exclude, I try to keep practicing the same tolerance and patience I have been the beneficiary of, as I've learned much of this stuff myself throughout my life so far (and expect I still have a ton left to learn).
So not only is nobody perfect, I guess I'm saying we're all streams, and it's important to let people flow and change and live up to their better selves (even if they need help or incentive), especially if they're aspiring to things I believe are important.
**None of that means anyone should watch Maher if they don't like him. Personally, I can only watch clips because the smarmy is too strong.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:22 AM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
On non-preview, totally agree with this, too. It seems like we're at a stage--collectively, socially--where many people who agree with socially progressive perspectives and values still have giant blind spots, unconscious biases and the like, where they don't practice their own ideals well, or at all. Rather than judge and exclude, I try to keep practicing the same tolerance and patience I have been the beneficiary of, as I've learned much of this stuff myself throughout my life so far (and expect I still have a ton left to learn).
So not only is nobody perfect, I guess I'm saying we're all streams, and it's important to let people flow and change and live up to their better selves (even if they need help or incentive), especially if they're aspiring to things I believe are important.
**None of that means anyone should watch Maher if they don't like him. Personally, I can only watch clips because the smarmy is too strong.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:22 AM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
it's hilarious to me that people are touting this sketch where obama says hateful things a la trump as a departure from bill "house n*****" maher's edgy liberalism. i bet he'd black up and play obama himself if he thought he could get away with it
posted by yaymukund at 10:32 AM on August 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by yaymukund at 10:32 AM on August 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
we need more effective liberal evangelists who can appeal to independents and people on the fence and transcend divisions rather than deepening them
Seeing how they treat Obama, I don't know if I believe in this anymore. All bets are off. Bill Maher being an asshole is not why people aren't voting.
posted by girlmightlive at 10:35 AM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Seeing how they treat Obama, I don't know if I believe in this anymore. All bets are off. Bill Maher being an asshole is not why people aren't voting.
posted by girlmightlive at 10:35 AM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I just don't think it's too high a standard for a grown-ass white man not to use the n-word like he's entitled to it. That's not "oh, his terminology for gender non-conforming people is what progressives used five years ago" or "oh, he hasn't discovered this minute subform of oppression that the tumblrinas are all about as of yesterday." It's just not using a vicious slur that everyone has known is a slur for, like, centuries now.
If you aren't liberal because of Bill Maher, you wouldn't be liberal anyway--he's an excuse, not a reason, filling in a role you already believed must exist before any awareness of him personally. I don't care about his impact on conservatives, I care about his impact on people who belong in the left's tent.
posted by praemunire at 10:39 AM on August 5, 2017 [22 favorites]
If you aren't liberal because of Bill Maher, you wouldn't be liberal anyway--he's an excuse, not a reason, filling in a role you already believed must exist before any awareness of him personally. I don't care about his impact on conservatives, I care about his impact on people who belong in the left's tent.
posted by praemunire at 10:39 AM on August 5, 2017 [22 favorites]
What was the purpose of the question?
I'm sick to death of these toothless attacks on Trump. This will have no effect whatsoever on the people who let Trump get away with this kind of stuff and only serves to strengthen the congratulatory liberal bubble that blindly allowed Trump to get into power anyways.
Maher is perhaps uniquely ill-suited to pointing out other people's hypocrisy. I'm sure you could do this exact bit with his views on Islam being parroted by Sean Hannity, for example, and it would be just as illuminating.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:50 AM on August 5, 2017
I'm sick to death of these toothless attacks on Trump. This will have no effect whatsoever on the people who let Trump get away with this kind of stuff and only serves to strengthen the congratulatory liberal bubble that blindly allowed Trump to get into power anyways.
Maher is perhaps uniquely ill-suited to pointing out other people's hypocrisy. I'm sure you could do this exact bit with his views on Islam being parroted by Sean Hannity, for example, and it would be just as illuminating.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:50 AM on August 5, 2017
the congratulatory liberal bubble that blindly allowed Trump to get into power anyways
Hey, my congratulatory liberal bubble didn't do shit to put Trump into power, thank you very much.
posted by Ipsifendus at 10:58 AM on August 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
Hey, my congratulatory liberal bubble didn't do shit to put Trump into power, thank you very much.
posted by Ipsifendus at 10:58 AM on August 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
only serves to strengthen the congratulatory liberal bubble that blindly allowed Trump to get into power anyways.
Am I allowed to roll my eyes at this, or will that somehow end up putting a reactionary dominionist on the 9th Circuit bench?
posted by Etrigan at 11:08 AM on August 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
Am I allowed to roll my eyes at this, or will that somehow end up putting a reactionary dominionist on the 9th Circuit bench?
posted by Etrigan at 11:08 AM on August 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
Me:
My conclusion from the elections of those two is that the American electorate has no standards whatever when it chooses a President.
LooseFilter:
I think it's more that this is the kind of behavior that happens when a critical mass of a population watches TV 4-5 hours daily for a few decades. Trump is an externalization of the kind of reality/character that works or is interesting (for some definitions of that word) on television but disastrous in actual reality.
Like I said, no standards whatever.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:33 AM on August 5, 2017
My conclusion from the elections of those two is that the American electorate has no standards whatever when it chooses a President.
LooseFilter:
I think it's more that this is the kind of behavior that happens when a critical mass of a population watches TV 4-5 hours daily for a few decades. Trump is an externalization of the kind of reality/character that works or is interesting (for some definitions of that word) on television but disastrous in actual reality.
Like I said, no standards whatever.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:33 AM on August 5, 2017
the congratulatory liberal bubble
Oh boy! That's where I'm a viking!
I think the gag is intended to be more illuminating and amusing as a statement than effective as an argument. I think it landed, though I was disappointed when it wasn't really Obama. For a second (because I am a sucker) I thought they might have actually talked him into it.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 11:34 AM on August 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh boy! That's where I'm a viking!
I think the gag is intended to be more illuminating and amusing as a statement than effective as an argument. I think it landed, though I was disappointed when it wasn't really Obama. For a second (because I am a sucker) I thought they might have actually talked him into it.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 11:34 AM on August 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
I watch Maher every Friday (on YouTube) and find his show penetrating, acerbic and biting. His views on Islam and some other topics though are reactionary. I am surprised he is so disliked here.
It's because the perfect is the enemy of the good (-ish), and MetaFilter is firmly on Team Perfect.
posted by Guy Smiley at 12:30 PM on August 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's because the perfect is the enemy of the good (-ish), and MetaFilter is firmly on Team Perfect.
posted by Guy Smiley at 12:30 PM on August 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Here's a thought experiment:
Do you think that white guys are more likely to defend Bill Maher than marginalized people that he makes bigoted jokes about, and if so, why do you think that is?
Oh, wait, that might be a leading question...
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 1:02 PM on August 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
Do you think that white guys are more likely to defend Bill Maher than marginalized people that he makes bigoted jokes about, and if so, why do you think that is?
Oh, wait, that might be a leading question...
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 1:02 PM on August 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
I only watch some's political news show if I can agree with them 101%
Otherwise no.
posted by Fupped Duck at 2:30 PM on August 5, 2017
Otherwise no.
posted by Fupped Duck at 2:30 PM on August 5, 2017
It's because the perfect is the enemy of the good (-ish), and MetaFilter is firmly on Team Perfect.
Couldn't be because Maher is a racist, Islamophobic sneering shitbag. Must be Metafilter's Moral Purity™ at work here.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 2:36 PM on August 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Couldn't be because Maher is a racist, Islamophobic sneering shitbag. Must be Metafilter's Moral Purity™ at work here.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 2:36 PM on August 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Point made and reinforced.
posted by hippybear at 2:46 PM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 2:46 PM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Like I said, no standards whatever.
Sort of--my point was that it's not having no standards as such, because "having no standards" is behavior that references some knowledge or awareness of a standard or norm. I think the source of this behavior is more of a profound ignorance of why they're motivated to make the choices they make, or why they're acting in accord with a world they think exists, but that actually doesn't: they're acting out what they see on the tee-vee.
Point made and reinforced.
QED, indeed.
Oh, wait, that might be a leading question...
No, it's more of a non sequitur turd thrown into this discussion, since no one in this conversation has defended Maher. This conversation was actually about how internal ad hominem attacks and arguments often cripple the effectiveness of the political left.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:59 PM on August 5, 2017
Sort of--my point was that it's not having no standards as such, because "having no standards" is behavior that references some knowledge or awareness of a standard or norm. I think the source of this behavior is more of a profound ignorance of why they're motivated to make the choices they make, or why they're acting in accord with a world they think exists, but that actually doesn't: they're acting out what they see on the tee-vee.
Point made and reinforced.
QED, indeed.
Oh, wait, that might be a leading question...
No, it's more of a non sequitur turd thrown into this discussion, since no one in this conversation has defended Maher. This conversation was actually about how internal ad hominem attacks and arguments often cripple the effectiveness of the political left.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:59 PM on August 5, 2017
This conversation was actually about how internal ad hominem attacks and arguments often cripple the effectiveness of the political left.
It's actually an interesting comparison/contrast to look at the actual content of the linked video and how the right is willing to forgive Trump for absolutely the most egregious behavior while attacking Obama for the smallest thing, and how this thread has been about attacking Maher for things considered unacceptable by people who share his general political views.
Maher is basically asking the Republicans to move more toward the exact kind of moralistic high ground that many in this thread seek to occupy.
posted by hippybear at 3:11 PM on August 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's actually an interesting comparison/contrast to look at the actual content of the linked video and how the right is willing to forgive Trump for absolutely the most egregious behavior while attacking Obama for the smallest thing, and how this thread has been about attacking Maher for things considered unacceptable by people who share his general political views.
Maher is basically asking the Republicans to move more toward the exact kind of moralistic high ground that many in this thread seek to occupy.
posted by hippybear at 3:11 PM on August 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter is firmly on Team Perfect.
Maher is a racist, Islamophobic sneering shitbag
As far as I can tell, these are both true.
posted by jklaiho at 3:24 PM on August 5, 2017
Maher is a racist, Islamophobic sneering shitbag
As far as I can tell, these are both true.
posted by jklaiho at 3:24 PM on August 5, 2017
Sorry. When the good has a national platform to spread really odious Islamophobia, he's not the good anymore, he's the bad. Fuck him.
posted by maxsparber at 4:51 PM on August 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 4:51 PM on August 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
no one in this conversation has defended Maher
No, it's just a bunch of dudes trying to explain why people dislike Maher in terms of people "seeking to occupy a moralistic high ground." But no one is defending Maher, no; that's impossible because no one has directly said "I love bill Maher." It's just being totally dismissive. It's different.
Jesus.
It is not a non-sequitur to point out that maybe personal experience can influence just what you think about giving attention to spokesmen* like Maher. The ones who sometimes say what you want, but then sometimes commit the "minor" slip-up of making jokes about women's sexual abuse, or Muslim celebrities bombing marathons, etc. It's a direct commentary on the discussion.
*gendered term intentional, i am so. fucking. tired. of finding out "liberal" or atheist spokesmen think less of me because of my gender. so. fucking. tired. and so fucking tired of people who are happy to overlook it. i should shine up my purity police badge, i guess.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:15 PM on August 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
No, it's just a bunch of dudes trying to explain why people dislike Maher in terms of people "seeking to occupy a moralistic high ground." But no one is defending Maher, no; that's impossible because no one has directly said "I love bill Maher." It's just being totally dismissive. It's different.
Jesus.
It is not a non-sequitur to point out that maybe personal experience can influence just what you think about giving attention to spokesmen* like Maher. The ones who sometimes say what you want, but then sometimes commit the "minor" slip-up of making jokes about women's sexual abuse, or Muslim celebrities bombing marathons, etc. It's a direct commentary on the discussion.
*gendered term intentional, i am so. fucking. tired. of finding out "liberal" or atheist spokesmen think less of me because of my gender. so. fucking. tired. and so fucking tired of people who are happy to overlook it. i should shine up my purity police badge, i guess.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:15 PM on August 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
Maher's big problem is... no wait, one of Maher's biggest problems is... no, wait...
Among Maher's many big problems is that he's not nearly as smart or consistent as he believes and wants others to believe he is. He will rant forcefully about Republicans and climate change and their utter disdain for science... and then follow up by being super wishy washy on vaccination, medicine, and biology in general. He doesn't apply his standards to his own beliefs.
That may not hold a candle to his islamophobia but it is still quite annoying.
Sometimes his shows are entertaining, though.
posted by Justinian at 6:24 PM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Among Maher's many big problems is that he's not nearly as smart or consistent as he believes and wants others to believe he is. He will rant forcefully about Republicans and climate change and their utter disdain for science... and then follow up by being super wishy washy on vaccination, medicine, and biology in general. He doesn't apply his standards to his own beliefs.
That may not hold a candle to his islamophobia but it is still quite annoying.
Sometimes his shows are entertaining, though.
posted by Justinian at 6:24 PM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm sick to death of these toothless attacks on Trump.
What would you suggest as an alternative?
Satire isn't toothless. Pointing out hypocrisy isn't, either. But if you're so sick of it, what are you doing, or at least suggesting, that has "teeth"?
posted by lhauser at 6:26 PM on August 5, 2017
What would you suggest as an alternative?
Satire isn't toothless. Pointing out hypocrisy isn't, either. But if you're so sick of it, what are you doing, or at least suggesting, that has "teeth"?
posted by lhauser at 6:26 PM on August 5, 2017
... because "having no standards" is behavior that references some knowledge or awareness of a standard or norm.
No. Having no standards is not behavior; it's a quality, like stupid. I am not saying that the electorate behaved without standards. I am saying that they do not have any.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:00 PM on August 5, 2017
No. Having no standards is not behavior; it's a quality, like stupid. I am not saying that the electorate behaved without standards. I am saying that they do not have any.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:00 PM on August 5, 2017
MetaFilter is firmly on Team Perfect.
Bigots like Maher who engage in and normalize their shit in public make the world less safe for the rest of us. Pushing back against it is the same as wanting clean air or clean water.
Enjoy parts of his work or not - there's room in this life for separating the art from the artist, or finding wisdom in the shittiest places sometimes - but all that 'moral high ground' talk is absolutely disgusting. Being upset with a dirtbag like him for joking about how a woman should be choked or going on about how brown people are dangerous isn't some kind of lofty, out of touch, ivory tower position.
posted by mordax at 8:54 PM on August 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
Bigots like Maher who engage in and normalize their shit in public make the world less safe for the rest of us. Pushing back against it is the same as wanting clean air or clean water.
Enjoy parts of his work or not - there's room in this life for separating the art from the artist, or finding wisdom in the shittiest places sometimes - but all that 'moral high ground' talk is absolutely disgusting. Being upset with a dirtbag like him for joking about how a woman should be choked or going on about how brown people are dangerous isn't some kind of lofty, out of touch, ivory tower position.
posted by mordax at 8:54 PM on August 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
It is possible to appreciate the good things he does while disapproving of the bad things he does. He's a comedian; he does things to provoke. He's crossed a lot of lines across the decades. But I continue to watch him because I get more insight out of the panel discussion on his shows and even from interviews with people like Reed than I do from a lot of other sources. Plus I get to laugh a little.
He paved the way for The Daily Show and The Nightly Show (RIP, goddammit) and Full Frontal and Last Week Tonight. And when he's spot on, he is exactly on point. When his aim is off a bit, it comes off a shocking because most of the time he's preaching what the choir wants to hear.
And, he's learning. The episode of his show after his house n-word joke was entirely devoted to people educating him about why he shouldn't have done that. It was an elucidating hour for me as part of his TV audience. I don't know how it affected him, but it seemed to make moves toward his heart.
He's also backed off on his sexism after being schooled more than once by guests on his show, not as planned out as the post-n-word show, more by surprise. You see his eyes widen, you see him start to get defensive, and you see him decide whether to dig in his heels or open a path to real discussion and discovery. I've been watching him learn and evolve for a long time. He's not perfect, but neither am I, and neither is anyone reading this. We all have lessons to learn, and he's willing to learn, and he has learned.
I'm not a Maher apologist. I don't excuse his crude and bigoted comments. They anger me because they end up diluting the overall message of his show which is to discuss relevant topics in a way which lets people learn more about various sides of the issues. They feel clumsy to me. It's like the spirit of Daniel Tosh occasionally takes over Maher's body and makes him say a thing in public.
I wish he was better, but the maybe 8% of his show that is problematic doesn't outweigh the other 92% for me. I just grit my teeth and maybe tweet about it if I'm really fuming.
posted by hippybear at 9:14 PM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
He paved the way for The Daily Show and The Nightly Show (RIP, goddammit) and Full Frontal and Last Week Tonight. And when he's spot on, he is exactly on point. When his aim is off a bit, it comes off a shocking because most of the time he's preaching what the choir wants to hear.
And, he's learning. The episode of his show after his house n-word joke was entirely devoted to people educating him about why he shouldn't have done that. It was an elucidating hour for me as part of his TV audience. I don't know how it affected him, but it seemed to make moves toward his heart.
He's also backed off on his sexism after being schooled more than once by guests on his show, not as planned out as the post-n-word show, more by surprise. You see his eyes widen, you see him start to get defensive, and you see him decide whether to dig in his heels or open a path to real discussion and discovery. I've been watching him learn and evolve for a long time. He's not perfect, but neither am I, and neither is anyone reading this. We all have lessons to learn, and he's willing to learn, and he has learned.
I'm not a Maher apologist. I don't excuse his crude and bigoted comments. They anger me because they end up diluting the overall message of his show which is to discuss relevant topics in a way which lets people learn more about various sides of the issues. They feel clumsy to me. It's like the spirit of Daniel Tosh occasionally takes over Maher's body and makes him say a thing in public.
I wish he was better, but the maybe 8% of his show that is problematic doesn't outweigh the other 92% for me. I just grit my teeth and maybe tweet about it if I'm really fuming.
posted by hippybear at 9:14 PM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
You know, I've rewritten about a half dozen replies to that.
Up shot:
It's okay that you like Bill Maher and find something useful in his work. This does not make you a bad person, it does not make you responsible for shitty things he's said or done. Bad stuff he's done does not invalidate or discredit good stuff he's done.
However, for those of us who are targets of his bigotry, hearing that we need to be more tolerant of him is tiring. Like, hearing that we're on 'team perfect' or seeking 'moralistic high ground' when we object to a guy who plainly hates us? That is... charitably, that's unacceptable.
Also, hearing stuff like 'we're none of us perfect' is an insulting comparison. Very few of us have a major media platform that is able to reach millions of people and become national news. If I say something stupid in this thread, probably nobody's going to get seriously hurt.
Like a wise comic book character said, 'with great power comes great responsibility.' Maher has a lot more power than we do, and with that, his responsibility to be informed is commensurately more than ours, because when he's not?
Well, I'm a non-theist, but I'm visibly Middle Eastern and my birth certificate is pretty fucking Muslim. When a guy like Maher gins up hate and fear toward me, that chips away at my safety in a small but real way. Every little bit is just one more thing to worry about, and it's a lot more worrisome from someone who's supposed to be on my team because people I trust might actually be listening.
tl;dr: reacting negatively to Maher isn't a mistake either. A lot of us have pretty good reason to. If that compromises your vision of progress, it seems to me that progress didn't include us anyway.
Anyway, spent enough time thinking about how to phrase all that without being mean. Tappin' out.
posted by mordax at 12:27 AM on August 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
Up shot:
It's okay that you like Bill Maher and find something useful in his work. This does not make you a bad person, it does not make you responsible for shitty things he's said or done. Bad stuff he's done does not invalidate or discredit good stuff he's done.
However, for those of us who are targets of his bigotry, hearing that we need to be more tolerant of him is tiring. Like, hearing that we're on 'team perfect' or seeking 'moralistic high ground' when we object to a guy who plainly hates us? That is... charitably, that's unacceptable.
Also, hearing stuff like 'we're none of us perfect' is an insulting comparison. Very few of us have a major media platform that is able to reach millions of people and become national news. If I say something stupid in this thread, probably nobody's going to get seriously hurt.
Like a wise comic book character said, 'with great power comes great responsibility.' Maher has a lot more power than we do, and with that, his responsibility to be informed is commensurately more than ours, because when he's not?
Well, I'm a non-theist, but I'm visibly Middle Eastern and my birth certificate is pretty fucking Muslim. When a guy like Maher gins up hate and fear toward me, that chips away at my safety in a small but real way. Every little bit is just one more thing to worry about, and it's a lot more worrisome from someone who's supposed to be on my team because people I trust might actually be listening.
tl;dr: reacting negatively to Maher isn't a mistake either. A lot of us have pretty good reason to. If that compromises your vision of progress, it seems to me that progress didn't include us anyway.
Anyway, spent enough time thinking about how to phrase all that without being mean. Tappin' out.
posted by mordax at 12:27 AM on August 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
Your response was well crafted and I have taken it to heart.
posted by hippybear at 12:34 AM on August 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 12:34 AM on August 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One deleted. Let's forgo the continued meta-derail, or at least move it to Metatalk if we really need to talk about Metafilter. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:36 AM on August 6, 2017
posted by taz (staff) at 6:36 AM on August 6, 2017
No.[...] I am saying that they do not have any.
OK, then we are definitely not saying the same thing at all. I think people are projecting hyperrealities and that standards, and all former metrics of in-person, real-life behavior are now mostly moot.
Sort of like trying to understand Trump through the lens of a healthy, typical person; he's neither, and will never act and react in healthy or typical ways. I don't think people have standards or not anymore, there is no ideal behavior to set as reference any longer--it's all people acting out their unexamined emotions, as stimulated and manipulated by their televisions.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:03 AM on August 6, 2017
OK, then we are definitely not saying the same thing at all. I think people are projecting hyperrealities and that standards, and all former metrics of in-person, real-life behavior are now mostly moot.
Sort of like trying to understand Trump through the lens of a healthy, typical person; he's neither, and will never act and react in healthy or typical ways. I don't think people have standards or not anymore, there is no ideal behavior to set as reference any longer--it's all people acting out their unexamined emotions, as stimulated and manipulated by their televisions.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:03 AM on August 6, 2017
No, it's just a bunch of dudes trying to explain why people dislike Maher in terms of people "seeking to occupy a moralistic high ground." But no one is defending Maher, no; that's impossible because no one has directly said "I love bill Maher." It's just being totally dismissive. It's different.
Where does your phrase in quotes come from? I ask because it's the only time it appears in this thread, and is a real mischaracterization of the conversation above your comment. No one accused anyone of trying to occupy a superior moral position prior to your comment. The conversation was actually in agreement that Maher is a shitty person and a very problematic liberal political personality, and part of it was about whether or not folks commenting can put that aside and watch any part of his show or not because of that. We were, in fact, acknowledging and discussing the very point you're angry about. Were.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:35 AM on August 6, 2017
Where does your phrase in quotes come from? I ask because it's the only time it appears in this thread, and is a real mischaracterization of the conversation above your comment. No one accused anyone of trying to occupy a superior moral position prior to your comment. The conversation was actually in agreement that Maher is a shitty person and a very problematic liberal political personality, and part of it was about whether or not folks commenting can put that aside and watch any part of his show or not because of that. We were, in fact, acknowledging and discussing the very point you're angry about. Were.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:35 AM on August 6, 2017
LooseFilter, please read Mordax's comment. He said what I want to say in response to you, but better and much more kindly than I'm capable of.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:00 PM on August 6, 2017
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:00 PM on August 6, 2017
But no one in this conversation said that reacting to Maher negatively is wrong--that's a straw man that was inserted. As with your perspective, I understand and very much support what Morax wrote. But that truth doesn't put us in a perfect world; we still live in this one, with very imperfect voices.
My own point was that, for myself and in general, I'm focusing on the message and trying to not let the messenger--or conversation about the messenger--obfuscate the message. Too few politically progressive messages penetrate mass culture in a substantial way, so I think that consistent focus on the message, and on spending energy fighting those who actually do things to hurt other people (like banning trans people from military service, e.g.) is most important. That calculus is different for others, and I'm sure mine will change and is of course different in each context.
If my looking past Maher as an admittedly very flawed messenger to what I think is still an important message is upsetting to you, it still doesn't mean that you're wrong and I'm right, or vice versa. What the bit in the FPP reifies is important, and important for people to see and think about. I don't think Bill Maher should be made important enough to obscure that truth.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:15 PM on August 6, 2017
My own point was that, for myself and in general, I'm focusing on the message and trying to not let the messenger--or conversation about the messenger--obfuscate the message. Too few politically progressive messages penetrate mass culture in a substantial way, so I think that consistent focus on the message, and on spending energy fighting those who actually do things to hurt other people (like banning trans people from military service, e.g.) is most important. That calculus is different for others, and I'm sure mine will change and is of course different in each context.
If my looking past Maher as an admittedly very flawed messenger to what I think is still an important message is upsetting to you, it still doesn't mean that you're wrong and I'm right, or vice versa. What the bit in the FPP reifies is important, and important for people to see and think about. I don't think Bill Maher should be made important enough to obscure that truth.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:15 PM on August 6, 2017
I think Maher is one of those comedians that illustrates the divide within the Left of those who argue for civil rights as a priority and those who think economic populism will naturally bring about civil rights. The former sees the latter as a group who's willing to sacrifice civil rights for economic purity, the latter sees the former as a group who's not in touch with the "common man" and who's driven by an agenda shaped for them by The Establishment. Maher is a more sympathetic figure to the latter than the former.
The video makes an important, accurate point in a very stark and biting way. It can be good catharsis but I don't see it convincing any conservatives of anything.
posted by Anonymous at 3:37 PM on August 6, 2017
The video makes an important, accurate point in a very stark and biting way. It can be good catharsis but I don't see it convincing any conservatives of anything.
posted by Anonymous at 3:37 PM on August 6, 2017
Will anything convince conservatives of anything? The President bragged about serial sexual assault on camera.
posted by Justinian at 4:13 PM on August 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:13 PM on August 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Will anything convince conservatives of anything?
Based on what we know about the ways humans intertwine beliefs and social identity . . . well, nothing fact-based will work. It's not a solely conservative thing, it's how human brains are. Changing someone's mind about a strongly-held belief requires strategies that appeal to their emotions and empathy, and constructing those arguments is harder than you might think.
(well, for me anyway)
posted by Anonymous at 9:34 PM on August 6, 2017
Based on what we know about the ways humans intertwine beliefs and social identity . . . well, nothing fact-based will work. It's not a solely conservative thing, it's how human brains are. Changing someone's mind about a strongly-held belief requires strategies that appeal to their emotions and empathy, and constructing those arguments is harder than you might think.
(well, for me anyway)
posted by Anonymous at 9:34 PM on August 6, 2017
I watch Maher because I enjoy his challenging interviews with people who don't get much mainstream media exposure. (The Gore & Reed interviews would not be an example of this.)
Mainly, though, I watch Maher for the laughs. He's a comedian, foremost. So I enjoyed the Obama/Trump bit. Even funnier was his apologetic trashing of "Pickle," a 9-year-old who can't spell the word "house."
posted by sixpack at 7:01 AM on August 7, 2017
Mainly, though, I watch Maher for the laughs. He's a comedian, foremost. So I enjoyed the Obama/Trump bit. Even funnier was his apologetic trashing of "Pickle," a 9-year-old who can't spell the word "house."
posted by sixpack at 7:01 AM on August 7, 2017
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posted by LooseFilter at 7:36 AM on August 5, 2017 [5 favorites]