Unite the Right Descends on Charlottesville, Virginia
August 12, 2017 9:48 AM   Subscribe

On 11 August 2017, alt-right protesters surrounded counter-demonstrators standing in a ring around the Thomas Jefferson statue at UVA in Charlottesville, VA. This was a preamble to the main Unite the Right rally, taking place today. ACLU Virginia is present and posting updates via Twitter.

Working backwards, here's a timeline of events:
On August 12th, a judge ruled that the United the Right Rally could be held in its original locale --- the recently renamed Emancipation Park. On August 7th, the city attempted to move the event to the nearby McIntire park.

On July 27th several local businesses, residents, and the director of the public library wrote to the City Council asking them to reclassify the event as a Special Event rather than a demonstrations (PDF posted by the Daily Progress). This would have required the organizer, Jason Kessler, to meet additional requirements in order to hold the event. Several businesses stated their intent to close for the day.

On July 8th, the KKK held a rally in the also recently renamed Freedom Park in Charlottesville, VA. Several organizations asked City Council to investigate police response from this rally which included declaring the counterprotest an unlawful assembly, the presence of state police in riot gear, and the use of teargas.

On May 2nd, a Charlottesville judge granted a six month injunction against the city's planned removal of the Robert E Lee statue from what was then called Lee Park. The city’s decision to remove the statue (as well as the Stonewall Jackson statue) were based on a recommendation from a city commission --- the Blue Ribbon Commission on Race, Memorials and Public Spaces.

On June 5th, Charlottesville City Council voted to rename Lee Park and Jackson Park to Emancipation and Freedom Park.

In Slate, three University of Virginia PhD students, (Sophie Abramowitz, Eva Latterner, and Gillet Rosenblith) review what had happened to date (June 2017) and dig deeper into the historical and social context around the two statues erection and dedication.
posted by CMcG (2217 comments total) 113 users marked this as a favorite
 
I've been watching the Buzzfeed livestreams this morning and was in fact about to bring this here myself. I hope MeFites in Charlottesville are safe, and I'm scared and angry precisely because I can see this happening here in my own campus.

Bit of additional late-breaking news, cribbed from my nascent FPP:

An 'alt-right' rally expected to draw many hate groups by the name of Unite the Right was scheduled in Charlottesville's Emancipation Park today at 12pm. Tensions mounted in Charlottesville as the rally approached, particularly when white supremacists marched barefaced through the UVA campus last night while carrying lit torches. Today the governor has declared a state of emergency; the planned rally has been cancelled entirely and fighting is still taking place throughout Charlottesville.

While the University of Virginia president has released statements condemning the march and the riots today, students are angry because an email from UVA administration explicitly allowed the Unite the Right rally on grounds of free speech and encouraged students to ignore and avoid it.

Personally, I would be enraged by that letter, too. I've been contacting local police, governmental, and campus bodies this morning demanding a plan for what they intend to do if this happens in Austin, after a thoughtful tweet in my stream reminded me that there's action we can take in our local communities, too. Because it's not remotely outside the realm of possibility for this to happen here. I remember the open carry protests here at UT, when open carry assholes wanted to stage a "fake campus shooting" to be taken down by gun-wielding assholes as a demonstration, and I remember what my university did then: said "actually, you do not have the right to be here and demonstrate unless you are members of the campus community. if you come onto campus, we will have you arrested by campus police."

I want there to be an actual game plan here to handle this bullshit before it comes here. And I goddamn well want my university president, despite the short leash he's kept on by the state government, to do his best to keep the students safe which includes helping them stand up to bullies in their own fucking homes.
posted by sciatrix at 9:58 AM on August 12, 2017 [78 favorites]


"alt-right protesters"

We need to to call them what they are: white supremacists.

It was not an "alt-right protest," it was a neo-fascist, white supremacist march.
posted by standardasparagus at 10:13 AM on August 12, 2017 [239 favorites]


an email from UVA administration explicitly allowed the Unite the Right rally
sciatrix

I think you're confusing two events. The rally itself was supposed to take place today in Emancipation Park in downtown Charlottesville over which UVA has no control. It was the march last night that went through UVA's campus.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:16 AM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


standardasparagus, I personally agree but was concerned that calling them Nazi (which is what I have heard them most commonly called in Cville) would be considered editorializing.
posted by CMcG at 10:17 AM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


I have kazoos and slide whistles. Time to start carrying them.
posted by tilde at 10:19 AM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Alt-right watcher JJ MacNab (of the Bundy stand-off and Oregon occupation fame) has probably the best Twitter list going for live reporting on the ground
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:20 AM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


> was concerned that calling them Nazi [...] would be considered editorializing.

Tell me more about how political correctness is destroying America
posted by farlukar at 10:22 AM on August 12, 2017 [38 favorites]


I, too, wish we would stop using their framing of alt-right, and go back to White supremacist. I know it's longer and clunkier, but fuck no, they don't get to reframe what they are. We let "pro-lifers" do that decades ago and look where we are now. Let's not make that mistake again.
posted by greermahoney at 10:24 AM on August 12, 2017 [68 favorites]


We need to to call them what they are: white supremacists.

Nazis is a lot fewer syllables.

@jeffjarvis
"The fucking Jew-lovers are gassing us," Nazi says on Fox News air.

@tomperriello
Alt-right marcher shouting "Heil Trump." [VIDEO]

@AndyBCampbell
Emblematic indeed #Charlottesville [pic of Nazi flags carried]

@AndyBCampbell
To those demanding photographic evidence of Nazi regalia in #charlottesville, here's what's on display before breakfast. Be safe today [pic of man wearing shirt quoting Hitler]

@donmoyn
#UniteTheRight protest: nazi salutes & white supremacist symbolism. Where are the moderate conservatives to denounce this? #Charlottesville [PIC]
posted by chris24 at 10:25 AM on August 12, 2017 [44 favorites]


Richard Spencer gets arrested. Suitable for poster-making.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:27 AM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


Unicorn Riot live tweeting
posted by adamvasco at 10:30 AM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Today is proof that Bannon and Gorka need to be removed from the White House as soon as possible. And any member of Congress that does not express their deep disgust for today's events should be publicly shamed for their cowardice.
posted by pjsky at 10:32 AM on August 12, 2017 [55 favorites]


This country is so fucked for the foreseeable future. Even if a miracle happens in 2018 and 2020, these jackholes are invigorated and aren't going away and, given their general truckload of tactics, are likely to have an outsized effect on national politics and function for a good long time.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:32 AM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


I watched a news feed from the rally for about five minutes before I had to turn it off, because I felt myself starting to weep.

But I came here, because I knew Metafilter would provide some much-needed context, and sure enough, there is, and I'm less scared now.

Thank you, Metafilter.
posted by PearlRose at 10:34 AM on August 12, 2017 [21 favorites]


the only silver lining is that more of this will expose the "moderate" racists who always deny these fascists really exist and pretend like it's a strawman. well, look: they're not made of straw. it's flesh and blood, good ol fashioned nazis. so, i would ask them, what are you gonna DO about this part of your community?

of course, this still assumes good faith on the part of *some* element on the conservative right, an assumption that every day looks more like naive folly.
posted by wibari at 10:35 AM on August 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


does anyone know of a way for me to donate to the counter-protestors' legal defense fund (if they have one) or buy them pizza or just throw them some cash to pay for whatever they need? i've been combing through twitter and haven't seen anything so far, but it's possible i'm not following the right people.
posted by Ragini at 10:35 AM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]




Richard Spencer gets arrested.

I still just can't get enough.
posted by Etrigan at 10:40 AM on August 12, 2017 [23 favorites]




One ACT-UP tactic was carrying extremely loud whistles en mass to silence counter protestors

and remember, Passively accepting nazism/white supremacy is no different than actively promoting it.

also hey, go Charlottesville DSA they got good on the ground coverage and links to bail funds/support groups/etc

Richard Spencer gets arrested.

I still just can't get enough.


REACH OUT AND
PUNCH FACE
posted by The Whelk at 10:40 AM on August 12, 2017 [97 favorites]




This country is so fucked for the foreseeable future. Even if a miracle happens in 2018 and 2020, these jackholes are invigorated and aren't going away and, given their general truckload of tactics, are likely to have an outsized effect on national politics and function for a good long time.

I'm starting to think their own privilege might protect us from the worst case scenario. Because these motherfuckers are soft. As a group they really have no idea what hardship is; they haven't suffered. They certainly haven't suffered together. I don't think they have the ability to sustain these activities in the face of any actual opposition, of anything that makes their lives even mildly difficult.

That requires that we make their lives difficult, though, which I am personally fine with, but will be somewhat of a challenge with goddamn Nazis in the White House.

Still, though. These motherfuckers are soft. They are afraid of everything. I don't think they'll be able to sustain a "movement" if they have to suffer any consequences at all.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:44 AM on August 12, 2017 [88 favorites]


Yesterday my brother and his girlfriend texted to announce that they would not be going to the counter protest, and I heaved a sigh of relief. A guest at our wedding traveled to Cville to counter protest and today showed up on my feed requiring stitches and perhaps cosmetic surgery.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:46 AM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


Yeah I just can;t seem them surviving anything other the most gentlest of push backs, which when they do get it they turn tail.

Hell during one march some pepe scum tried to get in my face and one big GET BACK IN THE BASEMENT made them literally run and I am not an intimidating person
posted by The Whelk at 10:47 AM on August 12, 2017 [75 favorites]


Richard Spencer at McIntire Park. Reports of his arrest seem to have been premature.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:48 AM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


I expect this will wind up on the front page/cover of something

Jesus, that image is up there with the picture of the Ferguson police dressed in full on urban warfare gear standing in front of a banner that read "Season's Greetings" as they menaced BLM protesters: put it in a movie, and I'ma roll my eyes at the director's heavy-handedness and inability to paint a picture with subtle strokes.

And yet here we are.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:48 AM on August 12, 2017 [33 favorites]


"They didn't even feel the need to wear hoods.
They're all confident they'll have jobs on Monday."
wikipedia brown @eveewing
posted by pjsky at 10:49 AM on August 12, 2017 [110 favorites]



Jesus, that image is up there with the picture of the Ferguson police dressed in full on urban warfare gear standing in front of a banner that read "Season's Greetings" as they menaced BLM protesters: put it in a movie, and I'ma roll my eyes at the director's heavy-handedness and inability to paint a picture with subtle strokes.


how many of these photos do we need, how long have these gigantic rolling protests about how maybe the police shouldn't just kill children and get away it or maybe open, naked Nazis shouldn't be marching in the street?

what kind of snapping point is up ahead?
posted by The Whelk at 10:51 AM on August 12, 2017 [21 favorites]


They brought Tiki torches to a Nazi rally. Guess the "master race" can't design a good torch?

Maybe they just stopped at Home Depot on the way over?
posted by ryanshepard at 10:54 AM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


The Associated Press‏Verified account @AP 5 minutes ago

BREAKING: Vehicle plows into a group of counter-protesters at a white nationalist rally in Virginia; injuries unknown.
posted by The Whelk at 10:59 AM on August 12, 2017


NBC: "People on the scene say multiple injuries reported after 2 vehicles struck a small crowd of people standing on 4th St near Timberlake Drugs."

The people hit were counter-protestors. There's photos and video up of injured people and a significant amount of blood. Meanwhile David Duke is speaking and the day's still young.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:00 AM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Here's the UVA Student Standards of Conduct.

Every single UVA student documented to have been at the white supremacist march across campus should be expelled from UVA. It's time to draw a hard line against violent white racism.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:01 AM on August 12, 2017 [105 favorites]


It's really bad here. Just left UVA Hospital, which is essentially on lock-down. My daughter called from work saying that shots had been fired (unconfirmed). Now a car has hit multiple people.
posted by kuanes at 11:09 AM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


well there's a video i saw but will not share

and now I'm going to go ...be alone with my thoughts
posted by The Whelk at 11:10 AM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


"I expect this will wind up on the front page/cover of something"
That photo. I ... I just don't have the words.
posted by bookmammal at 11:10 AM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


UVA is not in session. It is unlikely that many, if any, UVA students are there. These Nazis were bussed in from all over the country.
posted by hydropsyche at 11:12 AM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


president: charlottesville sad.

@realDonaldTrump
Am in Bedminster for meetings & press conference on V.A. & all that we have done, and are doing, to make it better-but Charlottesville sad!

posted by Rust Moranis at 11:13 AM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Twitter is a mess but it looks like multiple vehicles have hit multiple people. Eugh.
posted by Peter B-S at 11:13 AM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Yup. His own statements and the one from his staff on his Twitter account were all carefully worded to avoid offending the Nazis.

He'll insult anyone and everyone except Putin and Nazis.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:14 AM on August 12, 2017 [79 favorites]


This just makes me so sad and angry, as a Jew who has deep roots in Virginia and who has a lot of family connections to UVA. This particular brand of bullshit was supposed to be over. We were not supposed to have to worry about this particular brand of bullshit anymore.

And yeah, my sense is that many of the counter-protesters are students, but the Nazis are mostly not local.

Stay safe everyone.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:15 AM on August 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


Note that the picture of the black policeman protecting the assholes is from some protests a month ago, not the current protests.
posted by Justinian at 11:16 AM on August 12, 2017 [28 favorites]


UVA is not in session. It is unlikely that many, if any, UVA students are there. These Nazis were bussed in from all over the country.

The Nazis are lucky UVA wasn't in session, seeing how hugely outnumbered they already were by resistance protestors.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:17 AM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Twitter is a mess but it looks like multiple vehicles have hit multiple people. Eugh.

The video I saw (stumbled across) shows a white car getting rear-ended very hard in a crowded street by a grey car. People are struck by the white car (maybe both), then the grey one reverses and takes off at speed. Seems unlikely the white car did anything intentionally, but it's a quick clip. That grey car, though...hard to believe that could be anything but completely intentional.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:19 AM on August 12, 2017


Video of car ramming here at 7min30sec warning HOLY FUCK
posted by phoque at 11:19 AM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


Post with good places to donate.

As I've said in other threads, this is where I grew up. I was born in the UVA hospital. I'm so angry and heartsick about this, if not exactly surprised. The polite veneer on Southern racism is so very thin. The suggestion of moving a couple of statues and changing the name of a park is enough to unleash racist Nazi rage. Today they're also chanting "fuck you faggots" in addition to the racist and anti-Semitic chants.
posted by gingerbeer at 11:20 AM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


That video.

This has to be the end of these fuckers or it's going to be the beginning.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:22 AM on August 12, 2017 [37 favorites]


was concerned that calling them Nazi (which is what I have heard them most commonly called in Cville) would be considered editorializing.

Editorialized flag with swastika on it
posted by infini at 11:25 AM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


What would Obama have said to this?
posted by infini at 11:26 AM on August 12, 2017


Maybe Facebook can put its facial recognition software to work identifying the white supremacist assholes at the rally. Be real nice if they were all unemployed next week.
posted by COD at 11:27 AM on August 12, 2017 [33 favorites]


They're at a white supremacist rally. Odds are they're already unemployed.
posted by Justinian at 11:28 AM on August 12, 2017 [20 favorites]




They're at a white supremacist rally. Odds are they're already unemployed.
I am really not convinced that's true, for what it's worth.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:30 AM on August 12, 2017 [85 favorites]


The idea that white supremacists are poor whites with nothing going on is poisonous and false. Fascism has always been a middle-class phenomenon and Trump's largest base of support is upper-middle-class white people.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:33 AM on August 12, 2017 [182 favorites]


Cowards and bullies. No honor whatsoever hiding behind machinery because they can't win a fair fight.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:33 AM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Yep, it's the scared of people who don't look or live like them gated community crowd.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:34 AM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


I saw the photos of the men up front. They're not only employed, they'll be making hiring decisions soon if they aren't already.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:34 AM on August 12, 2017 [30 favorites]


They're at a white supremacist rally. Odds are they're already unemployed.

Probably not, if you actually look at any footage/photos they're mostly wearing khakis and golf shirts. They look like they took a break to riot on their way to the country club or a frat party.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:36 AM on August 12, 2017 [27 favorites]


They're at a white supremacist rally. Odds are they're already unemployed.

No no no no. Don't pretend these people aren't in positions of power. Those militia members aren't unemployed: Oath Keepers and Three Percenters actively recruit current law enforcement and military members.

These are not the people society rejects. They are proudly who they are and face little to no repercussions. If you deny this, you are explicitly severing the link between these groups and the structural racism that underpins our society. The alt-right is in the white house and yet it's still easier to pretend that white supremacists are fringe losers.
posted by yeoldefortran at 11:37 AM on August 12, 2017 [205 favorites]


yeah I'm not entirely sure being ID'ed at a Nazi rally won't put them in line for a promotion at the luxury car dealership or real estate firm or local police force they work at
posted by The Whelk at 11:37 AM on August 12, 2017 [24 favorites]


I posted some statements from R pols in the Trump thread that ranged from decent to worthless. Marco is terrible but at least he's the first one I've seen who calls them out for what they are, white supremacists and Nazis.

@marcorubio
Nothing patriotic about #Nazis,the #KKK or #WhiteSupremacists It's the direct opposite of what #America seeks to be. #Charlotesville
posted by chris24 at 11:37 AM on August 12, 2017 [27 favorites]


Did he deliberately spell the tag wrong?
posted by Lord_Pall at 11:39 AM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Well I know you guys are right but I'm with Justinian I guess when I think 'what makes one a Nazi' I imagine things like a year of unemployment, three family members OD'd on opiates, one strung out on meth, a deeply unhappy person with a million grudges.

Otherwise it's like: why? Why are you a fucking Nazi? I read that Higgins memo about cultural Marxism and I'm still all?????? I don't get it. Why are you so sad?
posted by angrycat at 11:39 AM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Although I do not condone or encourage it, it will be interesting to see if people online start doxxing the men in the march last night. I checked /pol/ this morning and it appears to be a primary concern amongst them. Ironic considering how many of these keyboard warriors think it is their right to doxx others simply for disagreeing with them online.
posted by constantinescharity at 11:40 AM on August 12, 2017 [20 favorites]


Watching the car video. There is really no difference between these men and their supposed arch enemy ISIS, is there? So many men just think they deserve the world the way they want it and fuck anyone who doesn't agree

I'd love to see a news story saying they must be taking their cues from the terrorists atttacks in Europe and suggesting they might be like their junior league. All the heads would explode and we could be done with them.
posted by fshgrl at 11:40 AM on August 12, 2017 [28 favorites]


Today they're also chanting "fuck you faggots" in addition to the racist and anti-Semitic chants.

And the resistance responded, "We're here, we're gay, we fight the KKK."
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:41 AM on August 12, 2017 [140 favorites]


Otherwise it's like: why? Why are you a fucking Nazi?

They're racist fascist fucks. Nothing made them become Nazis, they chose to become Nazis because that's who they are. Fucking terrible people who we need to defeat. Looking for cause is like looking for excuses. They have none.
posted by chris24 at 11:42 AM on August 12, 2017 [47 favorites]


They brought Tiki torches to a Nazi rally.

Tiki torches, khakis, racism, violence...it's like spring fling on fraternity row all over again.
posted by PlusDistance at 11:43 AM on August 12, 2017 [23 favorites]


I condone the shit out of doxxing them and am eager to hear other ideas.
posted by The Gaffer at 11:43 AM on August 12, 2017 [37 favorites]


And they're not Nazis. Nazis were a formal organization that existed halfway across the world many years ago. They were also a lot more successful than these dumbasses and had their own philosophy which is thankfully mostly gone now.

These are regular old American neo-Christian racists.
posted by fshgrl at 11:43 AM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


Guys, it can totally be both.
Yes, some underprivileged white dude from an ugly background and low income can become a Nazi.

It's very, very clear that over-privileged middle and upper-class edgelords with college degrees can become Nazis, too. And they're the ones we should focus on, because we're already used to the poor-and-angry stereotype. But those dudes aren't the ones driving this nightmare.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:43 AM on August 12, 2017 [36 favorites]


Just a reminder, while I feel badly for the United States right now, I'm also not naive enough to think that this type of ideology/behaviour isn't contagious. The alt-right/nazi/white-nationalism movement has been rapidly spreading the last few years (probably longer than that).

It's easy for those of us outside of the United States (I'm a Canadian) to look from the outside and shake our head. We would do well to pay attention to our own political parties, our own communities. We need to be vigilant otherwise, these same toxic people will infect and migrate into our own communities, cities, countries. And spread the same message of hate and intolerance.
posted by Fizz at 11:43 AM on August 12, 2017 [61 favorites]


(2nding gaffer)
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:43 AM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Did they figure out who was driving that grey car??
posted by ian1977 at 11:44 AM on August 12, 2017


This is my town. I have friends and family risking their health and safety to fight these Nazis. It was really important to me that this post stay up and provided some context for what has been happening here. That's all I meant by my "editorializing" comment. Please don't let my comment detract/distract from this thread. I apologize for being distracting.
posted by CMcG at 11:45 AM on August 12, 2017 [28 favorites]


I condone the shit out of doxxing them and am eager to hear other ideas.

It's not doxxing when they're being photographed in public. They have no right to privacy in this situation. Go for it!
posted by Justinian at 11:45 AM on August 12, 2017 [83 favorites]




Let's not sugarcoat it. Let's call these assholes what they are: Republicans.
posted by Floydd at 11:45 AM on August 12, 2017 [57 favorites]


This is the car that plowed through a crowd at the #UniteTheRight rally. Stopped along Monticello Ave.

That's a 2016 or 2017 Dodge Challenger, MSRP ~30k. They're not unemployed.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:46 AM on August 12, 2017 [33 favorites]


It would not be doxxing. They showed their faces in public; they attached themselves to this.

Not to mention, many of them may be material witnesses in a capital murder and federal terrorism case.
posted by stevis23 at 11:46 AM on August 12, 2017 [30 favorites]


Yeah, it's bizarre to use the word "doxxing" to describe the act of identifying people who are intentionally doing something in public. I still think we should be careful, especially about what we repeat on Metafilter, because there could be consequences for misidentifying people or unintentionally spreading malicious misinformation. But these are not people who have any reasonable expectation of privacy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:48 AM on August 12, 2017 [56 favorites]


It ain't like plantation owners were poor ya'll. And the hate driving khaki wearing Klan fucks is about making sure they stay on top.
posted by emjaybee at 11:49 AM on August 12, 2017 [25 favorites]


As far back as I can remember (~30 years) it was common to find Nazi flags for sale, if you asked, wherever you could buy Confederate flags. This was even demonstrated in an episode of Top Gear.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:49 AM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!

@kylegriffin1 {MSNBC)
Trump's generic condemnation is already leading to responses like this.
@RichardBSpencer: Did Trump just denounce antifa?
@RWPUSA (Richard Painter, GWB WH ethics lawyer) Retweeted Donald J. Trump
Then fire the Alt Right leaders in your White House before we fire you.

@SenSchumer
Of course we condemn ALL that hate stands for. Until @POTUS specifically condemns alt-right action in Charlottesville, he hasnt done his job

@chongathon
Just a reminder that this is what @POTUS tweeted after the protests that triggered cancellation of Milo Yiannopoulos's speech at Berkeley.
@realDonaldTrump: Professional anarchists, thugs and paid protesters are proving the point of the millions of people who voted to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
---

And 3 days ago:

White House adviser Gorka says people should stop criticizing white supremacists so much
posted by chris24 at 11:49 AM on August 12, 2017 [66 favorites]


Am in Bedminster for meetings & press conference on V.A.

I'm not even surprised anymore.
posted by moonbird at 11:50 AM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


Yeah, when reading Trump's bland and anodyne tweet keep in mind that he has a bunch of these assholes advising him in the White House.
posted by Justinian at 11:51 AM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


It ain't like plantation owners were poor ya'll. And the hate driving khaki wearing Klan fucks is about making sure they stay on top.

I love this! #KuKluxKhaki needs to trend on twitter
posted by pjsky at 11:51 AM on August 12, 2017 [38 favorites]


They got the Nazi in the grey car
posted by angrycat at 11:51 AM on August 12, 2017 [33 favorites]


I'm just going to assume anyone I see in a polo and khaki shorts is a Nazi

sorry Old Navy
posted by The Whelk at 11:52 AM on August 12, 2017 [23 favorites]


Imagine if these people ever faced actual oppression. - A long thread discussing these tiki Nazis and real oppression.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:56 AM on August 12, 2017 [24 favorites]


The Whelk: I'm just going to assume anyone I see in a polo and khaki shorts is a Nazi

Goddammit, now I need to go to Value Village and replace my wardrobe.

Stay safe, everyone. And fight Nazis.
posted by clawsoon at 11:57 AM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


>they're not Nazis. Nazis were a formal organization that existed halfway across the world many years ago. They were also a lot more successful than these dumbasses

"They're not zombies. Zombies just eat brains, these guys seem to be eating the whole corpse; I'd say they're more like ghouls or some type of reanimated revenant."

Everybody knows Indiana Jones hates Nazis, so if they wanna score a public-relations Own Goal by wearing shirts with Hitler quotes and doing the stupid straightarm salute, I say let 'em.

And they've got supporters in the White House, so it's a little early, unfortunately, to call them out as unsuccessful.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:57 AM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


They got the Nazi in the grey car

I read that they got the car, but thought it was abandoned by the roadside; they got the guy?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Trump's holding a news conference any minute now. I look forward to his condemnation of radical white christian terrorism.
posted by Justinian at 12:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


>@realDonaldTrump: ....Lets come together as one!

I'm gonna not come together as one with Nazis and the KKK if it's all the same with you.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [110 favorites]


angrycat: They got the Nazi in the grey car

Arrested? Because the photo of the car upthread made it look abandoned. I would assume if they were caught there would be cops in that photo or the car on a police flatbed. My first glance at that photo made me think the driver will try the "my car was stolen at the time and I'm just now reporting it" as they'll likely be facing multiple accounts of attempted murder.
posted by bluecore at 12:01 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


I read that they got the car, but thought it was abandoned by the roadside; they got the guy?

Even if they did, they've now got the VIN, so the driver's fucked if he didn't steal it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:01 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]




Seeing report and photo of a dark gray Challenger stopped on Monticello. They got him.
posted by spitbull at 12:04 PM on August 12, 2017


As far as coming together as one, Trump's trying to divide America by zero.
posted by moonbird at 12:04 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


if he didn't steal it.

...seems like a high probability of dumb luck to just happen to steal a car with heavily tinted windows for your homicide...
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:04 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


...seems like a high probability of dumb luck to just happen to steal a car with heavily tinted windows for your homicide...

Also they'd apparently removed the number plates, not something you'd do with a stolen car as it would attract more attention than just risking having the plates run.
posted by Buntix at 12:06 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Guys, we know they got the car, the question is whether they got the driver.
posted by Justinian at 12:06 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) managed to clear the very low bar of calling it what it is, at least. Really fucking pathetic how we're at a point where that's even worth of note.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:08 PM on August 12, 2017 [15 favorites]


The photo here, from Cville's newspaper, shows the car with Ohio plates. Photoshopped?
posted by basalganglia at 12:08 PM on August 12, 2017


Guys, we know they got the car, the question is whether they got the driver.

CNN reporting that the driver is in custody.
posted by un petit cadeau at 12:10 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


They got the Nazi in the grey car

This is unconfirmed. I googled the name of the person that supposedly did this and I’m pretty convinced this rumor is not true.
posted by _Mona_ at 12:10 PM on August 12, 2017


Taylor Lorenz says they arrested the driver and the car has license plates. However, he also says:
Anyway several police officers at the station here think the guy running people down wasn't malicious. They said the driver was scared
So yeah.
posted by zachlipton at 12:10 PM on August 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


Keep in mind when reading Flake's commentary that his family members are well known for posting racist, antisemitic, and homophobic slurs all over the internet. There are no good Republicans.
posted by Justinian at 12:11 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


Justinian: Guys, we know they got the car, the question is whether they got the driver.

This reporter is claiming they have the driver in custody. It seems to imply the driver's claiming he was spooked or attacked beforehand, but a video from another angle [note: GRAPHIC] shows the car accelerated from an area of no protestors towards them.
posted by bluecore at 12:11 PM on August 12, 2017 [23 favorites]


Anyway several police officers at the station here think the guy running people down wasn't malicious. They said the driver was scared

And the official cover up begins like clockwork
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:12 PM on August 12, 2017 [67 favorites]


The driver was clearly experiencing economic anxiety.
posted by stet at 12:12 PM on August 12, 2017 [163 favorites]


I am now fully convinced that there is nothing in the world as fragile or feeble as the white American male ego. The whole purpose of this neo nazi nonsense is to send a message that white men will not allow women, POC or LGBTQ people to exist in the same universe without constraints upon them that will ensure that white men forever and always finish first.
posted by pjsky at 12:12 PM on August 12, 2017 [71 favorites]


40 years later and we have the Summer of Hate.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:13 PM on August 12, 2017 [39 favorites]


He removed his plates before he drove into the crowd. He knew exactly what he was doing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:13 PM on August 12, 2017 [74 favorites]


The driver was clearly experiencing economic anxiety.

If he had a coal-fueled vehicle, he would've been able to keep it under control.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:16 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


And the official cover up begins like clockwork

An 8-cylinder Dodge Charger is exactly the kind of car I'd expect an off-duty racist cop to be driving. Just sayin...
posted by COD at 12:16 PM on August 12, 2017 [25 favorites]


It's easy for those of us outside of the United States (I'm a Canadian) to look from the outside and shake our head. We would do well to pay attention to our own political parties, our own communities.

It is not an isolated incident unique to the US, definitely. I see pearl-clutching from fellow Europeans and I also see the Britain First + EDL + Tommy Robinson + Prison Planet + Pergida + AfD + Sverigesdemokraterna + Danskernes Parti + Golden Dawn + National Front etc. This is spreading and it is terrifying.

Watching the news roll in from Charlottesville, I am wondering where we are heading. My gut instinct tells me we are in the middle of the beginning of something horrific.
posted by kariebookish at 12:16 PM on August 12, 2017 [25 favorites]


Every time I see "Jew won't replace us" I want to rip out my IUD because THE HELL WE WON'T!
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 12:16 PM on August 12, 2017 [101 favorites]


The Rules of Breaking News still apply, everyone. Hope it's true that they arrested the correct hitlerfuckers but a pile of salt grains is standing by.
posted by stevis23 at 12:17 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


He wasn't scared, but his license plate was terrified, so he was just rushing it home to cuddle and feed it. The humanitarian thing to do.
posted by delfin at 12:18 PM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


Cops know all about getting "scared".
posted by Artw at 12:18 PM on August 12, 2017 [55 favorites]


Remember that time reasonable conservative commentator and University of Tennessee tenured law professor Glenn Reynolds wrote a column encouraging motorists to "Run them down"?

This is a thing on the Right with explicit approval from elected officials and conservative pundits at the highest level of the Republican party.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:18 PM on August 12, 2017 [90 favorites]


Every time I see "Jew won't replace us" I want to rip out my IUD because THE HELL WE WON'T!
My spouse's grandfather was a Holocaust survivor. He had 7 kids and dozens of grand and great-grandkids. In celebration of each birth, he said "Take that, Hitler" (sometimes with saltier language).
posted by hydropsyche at 12:20 PM on August 12, 2017 [124 favorites]


Rumours of at least three dead
posted by Yowser at 12:20 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


Mayor implies at least one dead.

@MikeSigner
I am heartbroken that a life has been lost here. I urge all people of good will--go home.

posted by Rust Moranis at 12:22 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


I have seen several videos and photos showing the car had its plates, or at least a rear one.
posted by misskaz at 12:23 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


They said the driver was scared

Goddamn, those are the magic words, aren't they? They always say that, police officer and private citizen alike, because that phrase is the cheat code that makes police half-ass their investigation and gives you admin rights over a (carefully selected) jury to secure your exoneration.

Meanwhile, women and minorities never get to say that, no matter how often they kill and injure us, no matter how poisonous they make the environment for us. There have been numerous times during my 43 years on this planet where American racists have made me fear for my safety in direct encounters with them, and yet I've never assaulted anyone. I have never desired to own weapons or felt like using something I owned as a weapon against them.

But I'm the inferior one who is bringing down America and a threat to "real" Americans' safety. Huh.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:23 PM on August 12, 2017 [179 favorites]


Video (Twitter): David Duke today in #Charlottesville talking how how the hate rally "fulfills the promises of Donald Trump."

This needs to get wide circulation.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:25 PM on August 12, 2017 [49 favorites]


"I urge all people of good will--go home."

I urge them not to.
posted by maxsparber at 12:26 PM on August 12, 2017 [27 favorites]


If you kill someone cops disapprove of them you become an honorary cop as far as they are concerned - see Zimmerman.
posted by Artw at 12:26 PM on August 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


Also keep in mind that places with "stand your ground" laws have this stuff in mind. It's not about defending yourself. It's about making it legal to kill people.
posted by azpenguin at 12:27 PM on August 12, 2017 [23 favorites]


2 of the people hit where apparently Charlottesville DSA and they where rushed to hospital.

The willingness to put yourself in harms way to help a comrade vs the screaming hysterical anger over imaginary slights is one small spot of light here.
posted by The Whelk at 12:28 PM on August 12, 2017 [22 favorites]


One of the cars for sure has plates, not sure if it's the "scared" one.
posted by Artw at 12:31 PM on August 12, 2017


I continue to be shocked and angry at how shocked and angry I am...This was all predicted. This is what was promised to us. It couldn't have been clearer. This is what has been blatantly endorsed by our president. This is beyond horrific, but I honestly don't understand why I continue to be surprised.
posted by bookmammal at 12:32 PM on August 12, 2017 [24 favorites]


8-cylinder Dodge Charger

Point of order, it's a Challenger. And the base models have V6s, although that looks like a GT to me. And yes, it's a douchemobile par excellence.
posted by spitbull at 12:33 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


Tin soldiers and Bannon coming, We're finally on our own.
posted by delfin at 12:33 PM on August 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


Can't wait for all the bullshit both sides media takes.

Halfway expect the ACLU to step in to defend any Nazis that actually get murder charges at this point too.
posted by Artw at 12:34 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Pictures show Ohio plates, possibly removed after?
posted by moonbird at 12:34 PM on August 12, 2017


One of the cars for sure has plates, not sure if it's the "scared" one.

The Challenger is coming up consistently on Twitter with GVF-1111. That's the one that had a good running start of open road before hitting the crowd.

I'm still not seeing signs that the white car the Challenger rear-ended was intentionally involved in this at all. The white car wound up hitting people, but only because the Challenger struck it and kept pushing before peeling out in reverse to flee the scene.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:34 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Trump just condemned hatred and violence "on many sides."

Fuck him.
posted by Justinian at 12:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [107 favorites]


Trump just condemned "hatred, bigotry, and violence ON MANY SIDES, MANY MANY SIDES."
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


Fucking bastard fuck.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


Trump is speaking in Bedminster. Condemns "egregious display of bigotry and violence on many sides." Fuck him forever
posted by theodolite at 12:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [22 favorites]


That's gonna be the standard Nazi take.
posted by Artw at 12:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


Two photos [GRAPHIC]. One right before it hits protestors showing absolutely no one around it or touching the car. Second one is GRAPHIC. Ohio plates in the back. Seemingly no plate in the front, which I see often in sports cars like this where it's legal.
posted by bluecore at 12:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]




Over under on boasting about his electoral college victory: 2 minutes.

He's now boasting about the economy.
posted by Justinian at 12:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


As if malicious and scared are mutually exclusive. Talk to the neighbor's pitbull about that...
posted by Namlit at 12:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


The white Toyota had a VA vanity plate reading GODKPME in a photo I saw.

But it looked to me like it was completely shoved after being rear ended from a standstill, hence the major damage to its rear end.
posted by spitbull at 12:37 PM on August 12, 2017


Of course it's a Dodge, because they specifically market their cars and trucks to assholes, and like fuck he was scared, the video shows him gunning it for half a block down an empty street straight into the crowd. I would have preferred to see him pulled out and torn limb from limb, but just maybe, justice will be done.
posted by Flashman at 12:37 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]




Yes, that car clearly has its plates. Not sure where the "the plates were removed" meme came from.
posted by Justinian at 12:37 PM on August 12, 2017


White House press briefing live
posted by AFABulous at 12:38 PM on August 12, 2017


Shameful, even by Trump standards.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:39 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


Two photos [GRAPHIC]. One right before it hits protestors showing absolutely no one around it or touching the car. Second one is GRAPHIC. Ohio plates in the back. Seemingly no plate in the front, which I see often in sports cars like this where it's legal.

That's weird- where's the white car it plowed into?
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:39 PM on August 12, 2017


That was like an uninterrupted stream of white supremacist dogwhistles.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:40 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


Cville mefite here. I was staying away from the happenings, but two separate people called to check in with me because apparently some drive-by shootings are happening.

Consider this unconfirmed news, but a lot of businesses closed down today after the car thing.
posted by tedious at 12:40 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


Everything in this speech can be understood as painting the Nazis as victims.
posted by theodolite at 12:40 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


Be safe and take care, tedious and everyone in C'ville.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:41 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


That's weird- where's the white car it plowed into?
Based on a conglomeration of photos and videos that I've seen, the grey car drove at high speed through the crowd for quite awhile (hitting people along the way) before it slammed into the white car.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:41 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


I sure was getting a lot of heebie-jeebies from the "sacred bonds of loyalty" phrasing in Trump's comments. Does that sound... nuremburgesque to anyone else?
posted by Justinian at 12:42 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


where's the white car

Under the bodies.
posted by spitbull at 12:42 PM on August 12, 2017


Photo of the driver during arrest. They got him.

If you zoom in on the pic, you see what looks pretty clearly like a white man with the standard long top, shaved sides Nazi haircut.
posted by chris24 at 12:42 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


I am already angry at the thought that anyone, anywhere, will argue this isn't terrorism. But someone will.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:43 PM on August 12, 2017 [24 favorites]


If the cops go with "he was scared by the protests and therefore had to kill them" I assume it's gonna be barricades time?
posted by Justinian at 12:43 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


I am already angry at the thought that anyone, anywhere, will argue this isn't terrorism. But someone will.

Well there's definitely someone who will never call it terrorism, and he's the president.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:44 PM on August 12, 2017 [42 favorites]


Here's a quick transcript of Trump's statement. So much wrong with this. So much not said.
I thought I should put out a comment as to what's going on Charlottesville. [stops to shake hands of the veterans he's had standing there for ages]...We're closely following the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville VA. We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence, on many sides. On many sides. It's been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barrack Obama. It's been going on for a long long time. It has no place in America. What is vital now is a swift restoration of Law and Order and the protection of innocent lives.

No citizen should ever fear for their safety and security in our society and no child should ever be afraid to go outside and play. Or be with their parents. And have a good time. I just got off the phone with the gov of Virginia Terry McAuffe and we agreed that the hate and division must stop and must stop right now. We have to come together as Americans with love for our nation and true affection, and really, I say this so strongly, true affection for each other. Our country is doing very well in so many ways. We have record, just absolute record, employment. We have unemployment the lowest it's been in almost 17 years. We have companies pouring in to our country. Foxconn and car companies and so many others. They're coming back to our country. We're renegotiating trade deals to make them great for our country and make them great for the American worker. We have so many things happening in our country. So when I watch Charlottesville, to me it's very very sad.

I want to salute the great work for the state and local police in Virginia. Incredible people, law enforcement, incredible people, and also the national guard, they've really been working smart and working hard. They're doing a terrific job. Federal authorities are also providing support to the governor, he thanked me for that, and we're here to provide whatever other assistance is needed. We are ready, willing, and able. Above all else we must remember this truth. No matter our color, creed, religion, or political party. We are all Americans first. We love our country. We love our god. We love our flag. We're proud of our country. We're proud of who we are. So we want to get the situation straightened out in Charlottesville, and we want to study it. And we want to see what we're doing wrong as a country where things like this can happen. My administration is restoring the sacred bonds of loyalty between this nation and its citizens, but our citizens must also restore the bonds of trust and loyalty between one another. We must love each other, respect each other, and cherish our history and our future together. So important. We have to respect each other, ideally we have to love each other. And now, to the Veterans' Administration...
posted by zachlipton at 12:44 PM on August 12, 2017 [21 favorites]


hydropsyche: Based on a conglomeration of photos and videos that I've seen, the grey car drove at high speed through the crowd for quite awhile (hitting people along the way) before it slammed into the white car.

This was my assumption too. It's possible the grey car didn't even see the white one and thought they could completely plow through the crowd, but suddenly hit the white car, forcing them to reverse.
posted by bluecore at 12:45 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Emergency antifascist BLM rally at union square NYC at 4pm today
posted by The Whelk at 12:46 PM on August 12, 2017 [30 favorites]


As Trump walked offstage, journalists asked him, "Do you want the support of these white nationalist groups? They say they support you," "Have you denounced these white nationalists strongly enough?" "Was this terrorism?"
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:47 PM on August 12, 2017 [93 favorites]


Did this motherfucker just say "on many sides" when we are talking about actual fucking Nazis
posted by en forme de poire at 12:47 PM on August 12, 2017 [132 favorites]


Well there's definitely someone who will never call it terrorism, and he's the president.

He is the Anwar al-Awlaki of these motherfucks.
posted by Artw at 12:48 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


He ignored the interjections and questions about terrorism and focused on minor sexism and trying to get vets to argue over his pen instead.
posted by Peter B-S at 12:48 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


Facebook page for Solidarity Against Hate in Seattle at 1pm tomorrow. Apparently the Pac NW Nazi assholes want to do a thing at Westlake tomorrow, so this is (one) counter-protest. Don't know if other groups are organizing yet.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:48 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


I saw an interview with a guy there, and he said,"This is terrorism. People have died on American soil, in the name of White Nationalism. If it's terrorism when it happens in France, it's terrorism here."
posted by Room 641-A at 12:49 PM on August 12, 2017 [121 favorites]


As Trump walked offstage, journalists asked him, "Do you want the support of these white nationalist groups? They say they support you," "Have you denounced these white nationalists strongly enough?" "Was this terrorism?"

May that show up in some actual reporting.
posted by Artw at 12:49 PM on August 12, 2017 [22 favorites]


At least one person died and he says fuck all.


Your President.
posted by Yowser at 12:50 PM on August 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


It's so easy for Trump to say he "loves ALL Americans" when everybody knows he doesn't consider POC and/or immigrants as "real Americans." Fuck him and everyone of his fucking supporters.
posted by pjsky at 12:50 PM on August 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


There's a total doxxing in that Twitter thread that has the two juxtaposed photos (if you scroll down into the responses). The person the car is licensed to is (according to LinkedIn) a Vice President of Business Development at a healthcare company. Street address is there, too; house is valued at about half a million and is in some lame-ass, sterile exurban bubble.

. . . IF that's who the car was driven by. It could be stolen; it could be driven by a family member or something.

I've obscured the specifics, but it's pretty easy to go find the info from that Twitter thread if you're so inclined. (Mods, delete if I've revealed too much; I tried not to.)
posted by CommonSense at 12:50 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


The headline should be "President Trump declines to condemn white supremacy and the killing of anti-fascists."
posted by Justinian at 12:50 PM on August 12, 2017 [71 favorites]


The photos from the Charlottesville Daily Progress staff photographer. Includes some quite **graphic** photos of the vehicular assault and aftermath, and also stuff from earlier.
posted by misskaz at 12:51 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


It's easy for those of us outside of the United States (I'm a Canadian) to look from the outside and shake our head. We would do well to pay attention to our own political parties, our own communities. We need to be vigilant otherwise, these same toxic people will infect and migrate into our own communities, cities, countries. And spread the same message of hate and intolerance.

It began last year, in the spring. Globally, that is, and has only gotten worse. Ironically, its thanks to orangehead's tweets and frivolous leaderof superworldpower acting out that Rest of the World pushback has begun shedding light on it "at home" and turning the tide as recent european elections showed.
posted by infini at 12:51 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Keep in mind that gvf is Nazi signaling, more subtle that a swastika, but absolutely a gang sign of Nazi. Either that tag is fake, or the driver custom ordered it. And he sped up to hit the crowd. If the cops try to make this go away, we need to shut down that police force. Business insider is reporting that one person has already died from the car attack.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:52 PM on August 12, 2017 [25 favorites]


@maggieNYT: The administration's response to almost any criticism - on race, on Russia, on personal enrichment - is whataboutism. Today no exception.

If Haberman, the dean of "both sides" reporting, gets it... And Trump had to brag about unemployment and car companies in the middle of it because he's physically incapable of not making everything about himself?
posted by zachlipton at 12:53 PM on August 12, 2017 [22 favorites]


Another thought: aside from the crystal clear video evidence, it's going to be hard to make the case they were just out for casual Saturday drive and got stuck in a protest that spooked them when they drove all the way from fucking Ohio for their hate rally.
posted by bluecore at 12:54 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


gvf = gott...volk... freiheit?
posted by Flashman at 12:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


The president is a shitty nazi, now can we move on? There's 5 million other threads for that.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 12:55 PM on August 12, 2017


Potus45: the buck never stops.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


Take 12 seconds to watch the end of Trump's bill signing. He had every opportunity to condemn white supremacists. He walked away.

We know what he says when he really wants to condemn somebody. Think about what he's said about Rosie O'Donnell for crying out loud.
posted by zachlipton at 12:56 PM on August 12, 2017 [32 favorites]


It should be noted that Trump is not known for his sober, measured statements when it comes to stuff that actually bothers him. He loves this shit and he wants more of it.
posted by theodolite at 12:56 PM on August 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


The president is a shitty nazi, now can we move on?

I think a lot of us can't move on until we're no longer in legitimate fear of dying under fascism.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:56 PM on August 12, 2017 [118 favorites]


Trump just condemned "hatred, bigotry, and violence ON MANY SIDES, MANY MANY SIDES."

I know it's not an original sentiment, but fuck this President, fuck his fucking party, and fuck each and every fucking person who put them in office.
posted by non canadian guy at 12:58 PM on August 12, 2017 [93 favorites]


Trump is being torn to shreds on CNN by essentially everyone. So that's a good sign.
posted by Justinian at 12:59 PM on August 12, 2017 [39 favorites]


Trump is being torn to shreds on CNN by essentially everyone. So that's a good sign.

Jeffrey "Seig Heil" Lord isn't there to justify Trump's baby eating.
posted by Talez at 1:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


@LarrySabato:
A favorite JFK quote: "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.'
posted by chris24 at 1:04 PM on August 12, 2017 [123 favorites]


While "on many sides" rightly gets the attention, "cherish our history" is damning. This is our history. Our bigoted history is what white supremacists cite to justify themselves. "Cherish our history" is what the guy waving a Confederate flag is shouting. That's the side Trump, who knows so little of history he thought Frederick Douglass was being recognized more and more, has taken.
posted by zachlipton at 1:05 PM on August 12, 2017 [58 favorites]


Hospital's confirming 1 dead, 19 injured. Trump's labeled similar incidents as terrorism within minutes, even in other countries, and even with none killed and fewer injured. But he won't call it terrorism when it's here and when people die. It's a funny thing. But not ha-ha funny. Y'know?
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:06 PM on August 12, 2017 [48 favorites]


Another side to the "cherish our history" dogwhistle: The nazis, white supremacists, and other Republicans are ostensibly there to protest the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee. So cherish history is a pure dogwhistle to those folks.
posted by Justinian at 1:07 PM on August 12, 2017 [68 favorites]


Where were they radicalized?

@joshtpm:
If this is terrorism (which it is) the White House and Presidents entourage are filled with the radical preachers who inspire it.
posted by chris24 at 1:08 PM on August 12, 2017 [36 favorites]


CNN web site headline calls it what it is: TERROR IN VIRGINIA.
posted by darkstar at 1:08 PM on August 12, 2017 [36 favorites]


Though it would be better if it said "TERRORISM IN VIRGINIA" just to eliminate the semantic wiggle-room.
posted by darkstar at 1:11 PM on August 12, 2017 [37 favorites]


Where I live, the prosecutor for terrorism cases would have issued a statement and started an inquiry within an hour of the attack.
posted by Tobu at 1:12 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


I think a lot of us can't move on until we're no longer in legitimate fear of dying under fascism.

When they put me to hard labour with a crescent on my shirt, I can rest assured that the missing oxford comma in his latest tweet will provide me the means to escape.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 1:15 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


Trump ad-libbed "on many sides" too. He's reading from a prepared statement and looks up from the page JUST so he can avoid explicitly condemning Nazis.
posted by The Notorious SRD at 1:17 PM on August 12, 2017 [38 favorites]


CNN finally found an asshole to defend Trump's statement. Guess they turned over enough rocks.
posted by Justinian at 1:18 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


gvf = gott...volk... freiheit?

It's not an easy google, but it looks like GVF is something found on old Nazi insignia. Ironically, it appears to mean "Fit only for limited field duty" (as opposed to "fit for full combat duty.")
posted by msalt at 1:23 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


So it's like 'injured reserve'?
posted by ian1977 at 1:26 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


It's only a matter of time before one of these ghouls opens fire at a protest. We're heading into Baader-Meinhof territory, with a wide range of richly deserving fascist targets whose silence or dogwhistling is all but going to guarantee a US future populated by domestic guerrilla groups.
posted by ryanshepard at 1:26 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


You know what I can't get over? What's almost as bad as the violence itself? It's looking around me and walking through this country of ours, in and among white people, and wondering which ones are okay with this terrorism. It's why I barely went out in the immediate days after the election. My mental monologue was a constant shrieking litany of were you one of the people who did this to us? every time I saw a seemingly harmless white dude or lady. I've walked through cities alone after midnight and felt more safe than I did on those days.

Like, my god, I knew people were racist, okay? I knew. But at least it was a step down from KKK burning torches and lynching people sort of racism, so there was some hope that education and activism and the moral arc of the universe bending towards justice would get us to a better place. And I learned a while back that anyone can be a Nazi, that any number of ordinary men and women can participate in and allow all manner of horrors, that it doesn't take a unique evil or even being an obviously bad person. Some part of me still thought not here, not here, it can't happen here, but today I'm looking at the news wondering if I'm about to find out just how many people, my fellow citizens all of them, are about to show me just how very easily it can happen here. With the support of the President, no less.
posted by yasaman at 1:27 PM on August 12, 2017 [168 favorites]


Nazis have a rally scheduled for Boston Common Aug. 19. Their last rally didn't go so well.
posted by adamg at 1:29 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


A White House statement:
The President was condemning hatred, bigotry and violence from all sources and all sides. There was violence between protestors and counter protestors today.
"On many sides" really is what they're sticking with here.
posted by zachlipton at 1:32 PM on August 12, 2017 [59 favorites]


Halfway expect the ACLU to step in to defend any Nazis that actually get murder charges at this point too.

They did some "witness reporting" that made it sound like the counter-protesters instigated it, and their Twitter feed today has not been much better.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:33 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


There was violence between protestors and counter protestors today.

Yeah, that Dodge Challenger's bumper really suffered.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:34 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


ACLU Virginia has apologized for that noting that they aren't reporters at least.
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 1:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


They did some "witness reporting" that made it sound like the counter-protesters instigated it, and their Twitter feed today has not been much better.

FWIW, the tweet was deleted and the social media manager apologized and fell on his sword.
posted by Justinian at 1:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


You know what I can't get over? What's almost as bad as the violence itself? It's looking around me and walking through this country of ours, in and among white people, and wondering which ones are okay with this terrorism

For what it's worth, I'm a whiteboy myself and do this too. It's a disheartening and scary time to live.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:37 PM on August 12, 2017 [53 favorites]


Great, tear gas fig leaves on the statues.
posted by clavdivs at 1:38 PM on August 12, 2017


There needs to be an ACLU like organization that doesn't have a hard on for nazis. Their current bullshit is no longer sustainable.
posted by Artw at 1:38 PM on August 12, 2017 [20 favorites]


Either that tag is fake, or the driver custom ordered it.

There are various free websites for looking up vehicle (though not owner, so you can't use it for privacy violation) information by license plate. Looking up that plate pulls up the correct make & model of vehicle, so it's not a fake tag.
posted by biogeo at 1:39 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


If things really go south, more of us will be silently complicit than would prefer to admit.
posted by ian1977 at 1:40 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


There needs to be an ACLU like organization that doesn't have a hard on for nazis.

I would think long and hard about giving the government the legal power of prior restraint on speech. This is what the ACLU is fighting against, not what happens in the street when Nazis open their mouths.
posted by ryanshepard at 1:40 PM on August 12, 2017 [71 favorites]


That reporter Taylor works for the Daily Mail and all evidence refutes her. I wonder how she sleeps at night.
posted by Yowser at 1:42 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


We can keep on hating the nazis without having to pile on the ACLU, I think. The dumbass social media manager screwed up.
posted by Justinian at 1:42 PM on August 12, 2017 [37 favorites]


I would think long and hard about giving the government the legal power of prior restraint on speech.

Oh, come on, that's not what Artw is saying. The Nazis have enough corporate funding and institutional power that they don't need the ACLU to step in on their side. People have donated hard-earned money that could be better spent defending millions of other causes and people who don't have the luxury that the fascists have. I think it's worth considering whether or not there's an organization that has better priorities.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:44 PM on August 12, 2017 [28 favorites]


Bay Area United Against White Supremacy is holding an Emergency Solidarity Demonstration tonight at 7pm at 14th and Broadway in Oakland.
posted by waitangi at 1:44 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


The ACLU has a long history of asserting Nazis' rights to intimidate members of minoritized groups when that intimidation can be framed as "speech". The SPLC is more reliable, but do tend to see the law as the only useful, valid tool in fighting hate.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:45 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


they're mostly wearing khakis and golf shirts

@missbreton: The new KKK uniform sucks.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 1:45 PM on August 12, 2017 [18 favorites]




KKK=khakikhakikhaki
posted by ian1977 at 1:48 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Oh, come on, that's not what Artw is saying.

No, that's exactly what Artw is saying. The ACLU doesn't have a "hard on for Nazis". They fight for everyone's basic rights, even Nazis. It's this defense of basic liberties of even those you disagree with that separates you from the Nazis.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:49 PM on August 12, 2017 [30 favorites]


Also, the ACLU isn't morally or ethically obliged to support Nazis. Especially not when there are so many groups with far more pressing needs regarding legal restraint and civil rights violations that have to resort to actual begging for help, or that require the legal aid that a organization stuffed to the gills with lawyers like ACLU could (and should) provide to them.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:49 PM on August 12, 2017 [25 favorites]


For the record:

John Wagner and Jenna Johnson/Washington Post: Trump condemns Charlottesville violence but doesn’t single out white nationalists for blame
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:50 PM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


People have donated hard-earned money that could be better spent defending millions of other causes and people who don't have the luxury that the fascists have.

I don't think we should get into this here, as it's a derail, but national ACLU isn't exactly hurting for money right now and are working on many, many other issues and cases.

I'm going to stop threadsitting, too.
posted by ryanshepard at 1:50 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


No, that's exactly what Artw is saying. The ACLU doesn't have a "hard on for Nazis". They fight for everyone's basic rights, even Nazis. It's this defense of basic liberties of even those you disagree with that separates you from the Nazis.

Intimidation and threats of violence are crimes. They aren't protected speech. The idea that voicing Nazi ideas do not inherently constitute both is a failure of analysis.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:51 PM on August 12, 2017 [36 favorites]






Pope Guilty, luckily current First Amendment jurisprudence squarely disagrees with you. Just espousing odious beliefs, even beliefs calling for violence, is not a crime.

The very idea that it should be is poisonous.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:54 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


No, that's exactly what Artw is saying.

Bullshit. At no point did he suggest that anyone "[give] the government the legal power of prior restraint on speech." He stated that maybe there should group that might help the hundreds of millions of other Americans that aren't Nazis and whose basic rights the ACLU has apparently decided are less worthy of fighting for than Nazis.

national ACLU isn't exactly hurting for money right now and are working on many, many other issues and cases

And the problem is that there are many, many other issues and cases that they could be working on that do involve defending the civil rights of marginalized groups and don't involve defending violent fascists.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


I think what America needs right now is for the driver of the douchemobile to say "YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT IT WAS ON PURPOSE AND I DID IT FOR TRUMP." Draw us a big red blinking arrow.

.
posted by saysthis at 1:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Yes, I am aware of the ACLUs rationale for their both-siderism, it remains bullshit. I'd prefer to give my money to a group that only supports people who's rights are actually in danger from now on, thanks.

Looks like that'll be the SPLC.
posted by Artw at 1:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [32 favorites]


The ACLU are free speech absolutists and have never pretended to be anything else. They do a lot of good work on other issues, but they're not going to budge on defending Nazis, and people are going to have to make up their own minds about whether that's a deal-breaker for them.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [44 favorites]


Reminder: The ACLU worked closely with Y Combinator, which still has Peter Thiel on its board of directors.

You know where *not* to put your money.
posted by Yowser at 1:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


I'm looking at the Facebook account of the young guy that some people have identified as the driver, and it's not what I expected: lots of art and music and more than one anti-Trump post. There's a post from several years ago showing what seems to be the same car which was given to him when he turned 16.

But the most recent post from this guy is just 4 hours old (link to some classic soul), and the comments are a mix of strangers accusing him and friends saying the picture of the guy being arrested doesn't look anything like him. (I'd agree: the guy in the blurry picture we've seen of the arrest doesn't look like Facebook guy. Friend driving it / car stolen at scene?) No reply from him on his timeline yet. No other posts showing he was planning to go to Virginia.

Like On The Media's breaking news consumer guide says: this is a breaking story, things can change. But there are a lot of gleeful racists and neo-Nazis stomping all over the guy's page right now.
posted by maudlin at 1:58 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Yes, I am aware of the ACLUs rationale for their both-siderism

It's not "both-siderism". The point of the ACLU isn't that both sides are right, or equally bad. Their point is that everyone has equal rights.

It's unbelievable that the ACLU, an organization that has fought long and hard for the rights of everyone, is coming under fire. You sound exactly like angry social conservatives do when they rage at the ACLU for defending against their attempts to foist religion on everyone else.

One of the worst aspects of the Trump era is spreading his corrosive poison even to his opponents.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:59 PM on August 12, 2017 [87 favorites]


I wouldn't trust anything from self appointed Reddit detectives.
posted by Artw at 2:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [20 favorites]


Pope Guilty, luckily current First Amendment jurisprudence squarely disagrees with you. Just espousing odious beliefs, even beliefs calling for violence, is not a crime.
The protections the First Amendment affords speech and expressive conduct are not absolute. This Court has long recognized that the government may regulate certain categories of expression consistent with the Constitution. See, e.g., Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 571—572. For example, the First Amendment permits a State to ban “true threats,” e.g., Watts v. United States, 394 U.S. 705, 708 (per curiam), which encompass those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals, see, e.g., id., at 708. The speaker need not actually intend to carry out the threat. Rather, a prohibition on true threats protects individuals from the fear of violence and the disruption that fear engenders, as well as from the possibility that the threatened violence will occur. R. A. V., supra, at 388. Intimidation in the constitutionally proscribable sense of the word is a type of true threat, where a speaker directs a threat to a person or group of persons with the intent of placing the victim in fear of bodily harm or death.
--SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES, VIRGINIA v. BLACK et al.

The very idea that it should be is poisonous.

The very idea that making threats in the face of the history of violence behind those threats should be protected is poisonous.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [41 favorites]


And the problem is that there are many, many other issues and cases that they could be working on that do involve defending the civil rights of marginalized groups and don't involve defending violent fascists.

I say this as the husband of a Jew, and as the father of two Jewish children:

We have laws against incitement, and we also have the 1st Amendment. Giving the government, especially in the current political climate and especially given historical precedent, the right to negate the latter and preemptively silence anyone, no matter how vile - provided they do not cross the line into incitement - terrifies me.

I will continue to pay my ACLU dues, and I will continue to show up to tell Nazis to go fuck themselves whenever I can. I do not see these things as being antagonistic to one another.
posted by ryanshepard at 2:01 PM on August 12, 2017 [90 favorites]


The Whelk: I'm just going to assume anyone I see in a polo and khaki shorts is a Nazi

G-ddamn them. First it's the damn punisher t-shirts, and now this. FWIW I got a 2 year old ponytail ( a.k.a "Freak Flag" ) that I hope will mitigate your assessment of my clothing choices.
posted by mikelieman at 2:01 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


They're going to release the name of the guy who has been arrested, right? That's public information. We really can wait a couple of hours, rather than descending on some dude who may or may not be the right person.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:02 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


I'm looking at the Facebook account of the young guy that some people have identified as the driver, and it's not what I expected: lots of art and music and more than one anti-Trump post.

It's almost as if the Internet mob is pretty shit at detective work and shouldn't be trusted to correctly identify individuals involved in emotionally charged news. Funny that it's never happened before.
posted by biogeo at 2:02 PM on August 12, 2017 [23 favorites]


Giving the government - especially in the current political climate and especially given historical precedent - the right to negate the latter and preemptively silence anyone, no matter how vile - provided they do not cross the line into incitement - terrifies me.

Good thing no one here is even suggesting this, no many how many times you imply they are.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:03 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


The danger that nazis could get disenfranchised is not worrying me right now. The danger is nazis. And giving them a helping hand in the name of abstract principle is still helping them.
posted by The Gaffer at 2:03 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


Speech and beliefs calling for inciting violence are criminal here and I don't find it's poisoned much. YMMV.

Also, yes, a lot of people have decided it was antifa hitting antifa over on /pol/. Evidence is limited but regardless, people are being harassed anyway.
posted by Peter B-S at 2:03 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


I mean, we're talking about someone basically saying "maybe there's another civil rights group I can support that actually helps those in critical need of help." No one has said they'd rather see 1A protections taken away.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:05 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


zombieflanders, that case was about burning crosses. What's being advocated here is preventing people from merely espousing Nazi/fascist beliefs, which cases like Brandenburg have long protected.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:06 PM on August 12, 2017


At least one reporter on Fox News isn't completely ignoring Trump's "on both sides" horseshit. My word.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:07 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


So, what exactly are the cases when the ACLU has refused to help those in critical need of help? Because I'm aware of many, many instances of the ACLU being the only organization to stand up and provide legal assistance to those whose rights are under attack, and I don't recall any offhand where they've refused to do so.
posted by biogeo at 2:08 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


oh i did find this!

THREAD: I think it would be cool if tons of folks donated to good Charlottesville-based nonprofits those Nazi jerks would really hate. So...
posted by Ragini


Thank you for linking that twitter account! Just donated to Charlottesville Pride. Since I can't actually punch a white supremist in the face today, that will have to do.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:08 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


First they came for those that wore Punisher tshirts, and I said nothing, for I do not shop at hot topic.

Then they came for the khakis
posted by ian1977 at 2:10 PM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


At least one reporter on Fox News isn't completely ignoring Trump's "on both sides" horseshit. My word.

Which one? Shep Smith and (to a lesser degree) Chris Wallace seem to have some leeway about reacting as normal human beings.
posted by maudlin at 2:11 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Trump makes one more step towards open acceptance of the deaths of left wing protesters.

It isn't even subtle now.
posted by jaduncan at 2:12 PM on August 12, 2017 [42 favorites]


I swear, there is entirely too much bullshit in this world.
posted by darkstar at 2:12 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


Which one? Shep Smith and (to a lesser degree) Chris Wallace seem to have some leeway about reacting as normal human beings.

Didn't catch her name, she was a correspondent on the scene. The host she was talking to also made mention about Trump "catching a lot of heat" for the statement.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:13 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


It wasn't subtle when they started pushing for laws freeing people who semi-intentionally hit protesters with cars, either.

I was watching the Buzzfeed livestream this morning and a grey car--possibly the Challenger that went on to hit people--drove slowly by, and the Buzzfeed reporter went "oh, I hate seeing cars at places like this, I'm just waiting for someone to break a windshield."

I meanwhile was braced and thinking "That guy's going to run someone down. Fuck. Fuck. You just saw a guy with a massive hole in his goddamn head being helped away by his friends next to the police station, and you're worried about fucking windshields?!"

Fuck, I hate being right.
posted by sciatrix at 2:15 PM on August 12, 2017 [44 favorites]


These are all the same reporters that get an embarrassing middle school chubbie if they see a US bomb go off. Fuck them.
posted by ian1977 at 2:15 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Two Republican legislators have explicitly called out Trump's "many sides":

@SenCoryGardner: Mr. President - we must call evil by its name. These were white supremacists and this was domestic terrorism.

@RosLehtinen: White supremacists, Neo-Nazis and anti-Semites are the antithesis of our American values. There are no other "sides" to hatred and bigotry.
posted by zachlipton at 2:15 PM on August 12, 2017 [129 favorites]


One idea that a lot of democracies other than the U.S. have in their constitution is - and here I'll use the language in the Canadian constitution - that free speech rights are only subject to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

That seems okay to me. Our Supreme Court has set a pretty high bar for what constitutes a reasonable limit, so that only the most vicious and hateful stuff is illegal.

Not that it stops the flow of vile speech from across our southern border, though.
posted by clawsoon at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


You know what I can't get over? What's almost as bad as the violence itself? It's looking around me and walking through this country of ours, in and among white people, and wondering which ones are okay with this terrorism.

Beyond just being cowardly, that was part of the old KKK method of terrorizing people too: they wanted to inspire racial fear and paranoia to exacerbate tensions between whites and blacks. The hoods in addition to shielding their identities also made it possible for them to misrepresent themselves as representatives of the white community, speaking on behalf of all of us and potentially hiding in plain sight. Fuckers don't speak for anyone but themselves and the cynical rich legacy white fuckers pulling their strings but they'd like to project the image they do, that they're everywhere and inescapable, like typical abusers do. Bullshit.
posted by saulgoodman at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2017 [28 favorites]


There are now reports and photos of a State Police helicopter crashing in Charlottesville.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:19 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


Oh, man. From the Twitter account of Dean Seal of The Daily Progress: BREAKING: On scene here, I'm being told a state police helicopter has crashed in the woods near Old Farm Road.

(Daniel Dale says that's in the Charlottesville area, but no word yet on whether this is at all related to the protests.)
posted by maudlin at 2:19 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


NPR was just interviewing Wes Bellamy, the Vice-Mayor of Charlottesville now; the reporter began a comment with something like, "So as I understand this all started with the city removing a statue of Robert E. Lee...." and Bellamy completely went off on that, pointing things squarely and firmly at a lengthy history of white supremacy. Even when the reporter tried to re-direct ("yes, but this specific instance....") he cut her off and called out white supremacy.

I want a transcript. really bad.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:22 PM on August 12, 2017 [106 favorites]


Well, Chuck fucking Grassley just tweeted something that was not very grammatical but was at least emphatic:
What " WhiteNatjonalist" are doing in Charlottesville is homegrown terrorism that can't be tolerated anymore that what Any extremist does
At least we know it's from him, I guess, because that was definitely not a vetted statement.

If anyone is in Iowa and can leave right now, there are solidarity rallies in Des Moines and Iowa City at 5:00 tonight. There's already been a rally planned for the Quad Cities on Wednesday in response to white supremacist fliers that have been showing up there.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:24 PM on August 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


NPR was just interviewing Wes Bellamy

Ugh, he has a history of tweeting stupid shit.
posted by peeedro at 2:26 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


And, you know, broadly speak? Nazis' rights to free speech are not actually at risk here. The lives of regular Americans are. We should prioritize accordingly.

No, what is at risk are your free speech rights if the Trump administration is given the power and precedent to restrict anyone's speech.
posted by straight at 2:28 PM on August 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


People are free to donate to whichever causes they choose. The government should not be given the power to suppress speech. End of story, let's move on.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:30 PM on August 12, 2017 [29 favorites]


> NPR was just interviewing Wes Bellamy

Ugh, he has a history of tweeting stupid shit.


Interestingly, I was coming in here to speak about the ACLU, but I think it also applies in this case.

Yes, the ACLU defends the right of Nazis to demonstrate. But demonstrating is all they support. They only step in if a group tries to secure a parade permit or something, and the town goes "fuck no, not here". Because that town saying "fuck no, not here" is unconstitutional, full stop. I doubt the ACLU would be coming to the defense of the guy who plowed his car into the protestors, becuase that is murder and murder is illegal.

So yes, the ACLU has defended Nazis in the past - but only up to a specific point. And the reason they did so is to ensure that the rights they were winning for the Nazis could also be enjoyed by groups like Black Lives Matter, or the Million Woman March, or...

People are imperfect. People can do things that you disagree with. It does not necessary wholly invalidate the things that they do right.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:33 PM on August 12, 2017 [43 favorites]


The ACLU is never about defending Nazis. They are about denying the government powers that would for sure be turned and used against you and people you care about.
posted by straight at 2:33 PM on August 12, 2017 [73 favorites]


Hippie punk artsy Facebook guy (the one the doxxers claimed was the driver of the car) just posted several times, saying that he drives a totally different car. (Yeah, it could be someone posting on his behalf, but really, this seems to have been a malicious rumour. Really, really does NOT look like the arrested guy.) His page will be infested with Nazis for a long time, though.
posted by maudlin at 2:37 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


The ACLU is never about defending Nazis. They are about denying the government powers that would for sure be turned and used against you and people you care about.

Is it time to quote A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS? Because it feels like it is time? No? Okaaaaay.
posted by Justinian at 2:38 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


Somewhere down the road the progressive liberals are the dominant group in power. At that happy day, I still want the ACLU to keep them in check too.
posted by ian1977 at 2:38 PM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


Perfect.

@KeeganNYC
Holy fuck. In the middle of some Nazi's livestream about how the left is not tolerant a driver ploughs through Charlottesville counter-demo.
VIDEO

@Garossino Retweeted Keegan Stephan
Aaaand here we have Rebel Media’s Faith Goldy appears to be right on scene w sneering anti-left commentary, just as car attacks. #cdnpoli
posted by chris24 at 2:40 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


Set the Wayback Machine to the London Bridge attack...

Trump tweets spark strong reaction in UK Analysis by Chris Cillizza, CNN Editor-at-large Updated 10:47 PM ET, Sun June 4, 2017

Containing such wonderful moments as
"We must stop being politically correct and get down to the business of security for our people. If we don't get smart it will only get worse," Trump started.
posted by mikelieman at 2:42 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


"Liberty may be endangered by the abuses of liberty as well as by the abuses of power."

-Alexander Hamilton
posted by clavdivs at 2:45 PM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


The ACLU is the like the park ranger of the national park that is our collective consciousness.
posted by ian1977 at 2:46 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


.
posted by sciencegeek at 2:48 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


if donald trump wants the american people to unite he can start the process by quitting his job
posted by pyramid termite at 2:51 PM on August 12, 2017 [22 favorites]




No that's not perfect, that's Rebel Media, which with cross pollination with American Naziism may destroy Canada.

In case you're wondering why I'm so pissed off at America (more than usual)
posted by Yowser at 2:53 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


It would be the easiest thing in the world for the president to say: "This was domestic terrorism and we are absolutely going to nail the perpetrators to the wall." And then to do it, by which I mean, to call somebody and tell them to do it. He'd barely have to lift a finger.

It's probably the easiest thing any president could do to boost his ratings prop up his polling numbers. He would actually be doing the executive's job. It would look strong, confident, tough-but-fair, it would demonstrate a commitment to law and order. Virtually every person in the country would get behind that. How many leaders get a gimme like this? How many malignant narcissists could pass up an opportunity like this? He wouldn't even lose the support of the neo-Nazis - who else are they going to support?

I am far away, and I am safe, but just hearing this news makes me want to vomit. I don't even want to think about what it's like to be closer to the center.
posted by Western Infidels at 2:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [27 favorites]


Looking back to my very first comment in the nauseating wake of the election, I said:


A man who had the enthusiastic backing of the Ku Klux Klan was elected to the most powerful office in the world. The sickness and moral rot in this country are just beyond words, and no amount of brave talk can cover it up.
posted by informavore at 6:30 AM on November 9, 2016 [66 favorites +] [!]


The media at this point have one job: to hang this atrocity around the neck of Trump and every other Republican. They as a party have profited from stoking hate for years. They need to be made to own every one of these acts of violence. And this country needs to finally put down the spasming corpse of the Confederacy for good.
posted by informavore at 2:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [54 favorites]




A Nazi killed an IWW member today.

I just keep saying that in my head.
posted by The Whelk at 3:05 PM on August 12, 2017 [74 favorites]


This is all so fucking surreal. Expected and yet... that doesn't blunt the edge at all.

These sons of bitches.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 3:07 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


Two confirmed dead in the helicopter.
posted by Yowser at 3:10 PM on August 12, 2017


The last time the KKK murdered people at a protest in the US was 38 years ago, which just really isn't that long ago.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:11 PM on August 12, 2017 [18 favorites]


People Are Mocking White Nationalists For Marching With Literal Tiki Torches
I hope we've moved beyond that take right now. Like, literally.
posted by Flashman at 3:11 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


Police wouldn't confirm if it was a police helicopter or otherwise.
posted by Yowser at 3:12 PM on August 12, 2017


Good, because there's a chance that it would become the story of the day if they did.
posted by rhizome at 3:13 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


The Daily Progress says it was a state police helicopter.
posted by zachlipton at 3:14 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


There's been no free speech issues today. The Nazis were allowed to gather and to speak. If they had done that peacefully, they would've been allow to say whatever hateful shit they wanted without response from the government. They didn't do that. They showed up earlier than their permit and marched through an unrelated area, then at the end attacked unarmed students. Today, again prior to their permit, they showed up with pre-purchased riot shields and tactical gear, homemade body armor, clubs and chemical weapons, and attacked counter demonstrators. Oh, and then one or more of them ran over 20+ people with a car. Free speech ends when it ceases to be speech and crosses into violence.

The ACLU has not yet stated any legal positions on today's events. If they do, that will be the time to criticize their choices, especially if they come to the defense of Nazi aggressors while not defending counter protesters. That hasn't happened yet, and jumping to the conclusion that it will is unwarranted, and unnecessarily incendiary on an already fucked up day.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:15 PM on August 12, 2017 [85 favorites]


FYI the alt-right are calling the terrorist attack euphemistically a "car crash" even though it's anything but.
posted by Yowser at 3:16 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


If you're yelling at the ACLU on a day when (most likely) a Nazi murdered a protestor, maybe it's time to stop and ask yourself whether you are indulging in the toddler-like behavior of hitting whoever's closest when you're upset. It's very tempting to get especially angry at the people you think you can reach and hurt. It's not particularly wise.

The ACLU has been working on almost every major court case in defense of civil liberties during the Trump era. You can find a better target for your fury than a group that has a somewhat different assessment than you do of the wisdom of government restraint of speech. Really. You can. You can hardly take a step without tripping over one.
posted by praemunire at 3:20 PM on August 12, 2017 [104 favorites]


They're also blaming an "alt-left" guy for it. It seems that maybe the guy they're targeting sold his car used to the real perpetrator, but he's getting flack anyway all over twitter and such.

....There are early rumors of another guy's name being the "real" culprit.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:21 PM on August 12, 2017


I lived in Crozet, just outside of Charlottesville, from 2005 to 2014. This whole thing makes me want to weep for my old home.
posted by 4ster at 3:23 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Aaaand here we have Rebel Media’s Faith Goldy appears to be right on scene w sneering anti-left commentary, just as car attacks. #cdnpoli

And she is part of the rising right that exists in Canada. Canadaland has a good podcast episode about their reach into our political system and how they influence our society and media. It's well worth a listen.

This is what I was alluding to up above in my comment about how it's not just an "American" problem. The world is facing a rising tide of hate. It's not just in someone else's backyard.
posted by Fizz at 3:24 PM on August 12, 2017 [22 favorites]


Governor McAuliffe's statement was spot on.

It's what a good President would say.
posted by yesster at 3:27 PM on August 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


I am interesting in hearing from other Metafilter members who live in Virginia. My experience of the events leading up to this has been:

- Many people believe that the city council should just leave the statues alone and that they are "neutral" historical artifacts. This appears to be a belief held by both liberals and republicans (as well as Nazis --- but the Nazi's don't really believe they are neutral; they like them because they celebrate white supremacy). This is why I found the slate article so interesting. From the beginning, those statues were never neutral.

- Outside of Charlottesville (and even somewhat within), people are unaware of the tension between African American's and the police. This tension has come onto people's radar, not just through the statue removal but also through the investigation of the disappearance (which has now homicide) of Sage Smith. When the counterprotesters stuck around after the July KKK rally and were so angry with the police, I felt that the national news media missed that this anger was in part about Sage Smith and race relations in general.

- Jason Kessler (the organizer of the Nazi rally) is a total buffoon. I knew evil could be banal, but I didn't know it could be so idiotic and blandly frat-boy wanna be. The first time I saw Kessler was at a City Council meeting where he was presenting a petition to remove Wes Bellamy from City Council. (Bellamy is the only African American on city council.) Kessler walked in with sunglasses and a boombox on his shoulder, blaring a song like his own hype man. I found him pathetic and it mystifies me how any one can follow him into anything. I am aware people share his heinous beliefs, but he is such a annoying twat.
posted by CMcG at 3:29 PM on August 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


In which a neo-Nazi tells Fox News "the fucking Jew-lovers are gassing us" and a Fox News reporter responds by saying "pardon his, uh, his French," as if the profanity is the problem here.
posted by zachlipton at 3:31 PM on August 12, 2017 [71 favorites]


And this is why we don't speculate or go looking at Facebook pages or what have you until someone in the position to confirm the news releases the name of the suspect.

Christ. We lived through it with the bombers here in Boston and it was as dangerous then as it is now.
posted by lydhre at 3:31 PM on August 12, 2017 [15 favorites]


@senorrinhatch
We should call evil by its name. My brother didn't give his life fighting Hitler for Nazi ideas to go unchallenged here at home. -OGH

Orrin, you talk good talk but at some point you're going to have to quit farting dust and step up.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:33 PM on August 12, 2017 [28 favorites]


"Criminal Homicide";They're not treating the terrorist attack as a terrorist attack.
posted by Yowser at 3:34 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


I don't know. They're still craven shit-lords, but I'm somewhat heartened that some elected Republicans seem to be denouncing this using the right language.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:34 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


Yes, the ACLU defends the right of Nazis to demonstrate. But demonstrating is all they support

Thisthisthisthisthis.

They aren't defending the nazis against the protestors, they are suing the city over the permit to march that was revoked.

Honestly, I used to work for the ACLU, and the idea that they in any way, shape or form support nazis and white supremacists right to say anything they want and incite violence is mind-boggling. And yes, at this time they seem to have raised a good deal of money based on the work they've done under Trump; feel free to donate your money wherever you think is helpful.

Helpful reminder: the ACLU has a free app called Mobile Justice which will take videos you shoot and send them directly to the ACLU,even if the data or phone are "lost."
posted by Room 641-A at 3:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [54 favorites]


Lifelong Virginian, former Charlottesville resident and UVA alum here, the statues need to fucking go. History is cool and all, but it is unconscionable to ask black citizens to pay for the upkeep of a park which includes a statue of a famous traitor who fought to maintain slavery. Same for the statues on monument avenue in Richmond. it's not a tough call.
posted by skewed at 3:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [78 favorites]


It really is global. And it really isn't going away. I want to say something snarky about the 1% and the 27% and the Mirror Universe Media and tribal politics bullshit but I'm just sick to my stomach, because Nazis murdered and injured protesters in broad daylight and the reactions tell me that this is a starting point for escalation, not an endpoint, and half of America will wake up tomorrow and eat pancakes and act like this is all part of the expected.

In the words of Charlie Brown, my stomach hurts.
posted by delfin at 3:37 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


CNN recently updated the chiron to "at least three killed". Shit.
posted by sylvanshine at 3:37 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


a Fox News reporter responds by saying "pardon his, uh, his French," as if the profanity is the problem here.

Well the profanity could get them in trouble with the FCC. Our wonderful First Amendment covers calling for genocide against Jews, but not saying "fuck" on the air. Don't you just feel free?
posted by traveler_ at 3:38 PM on August 12, 2017 [29 favorites]


I keep thinking of Kent State.

McAuliffe nailed it. Have Morgan Freeman read those lines and it's a wrap.
posted by spitbull at 3:38 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


McAuliffe didn't mince words. Your next President?
posted by Yowser at 3:40 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Remember the 2009 DHS report entitled “Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment”?

August 2012: Republicans Blasted Obama Administration For Warning About Right-Wing Domestic Terrorism
But when, in 2009, the Department of Homeland Security reported that white supremacy is the US’s biggest threat for domestic terror, it was met with harsh criticism. Conservatives blasted the department for defining terror threats too broadly, instead of focusing on potential Islamic terrorists. Then-House Minority Leader Rep. John Boehner (R-OH) was one of those who berated DHS, saying that they weren’t focusing on the real threats the US faces

Regardless of what they're saying today as they try to distance themselves from their immediate past history of supporting violent rhetoric, Republicans have been stoking the conditions for today's violence for a long, long time.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:41 PM on August 12, 2017 [64 favorites]


I'm the same demographic as skewed (born and raised in Virginia, went to UVa, went away for a bit, returned for four years, moved away again last summer and plan to move back in a few months if all goes to plan). The statues need to go. They have little artistic merit, and the history they represent is unconscionable. If someone wants to make a Civil War museum and stick those statues there, fine (although you'd have to be careful that it doesn't become a hero-worship museum). But leaving them on public lands, maintained by public funds, is a slap in the face of freedom.
posted by basalganglia at 3:43 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


Oh America, my heart aches.

Not the point here [mods please delete if a derail] but I thought that this was a very thoughtful way to respond to statues of racist murderers.

http://thememorypalace.us/2015/08/notes-on-an-imagined-plaque/


Those of you going to (counter-)demonstrations, please take care of yourselves and those around you... and thank you for going.
posted by stanf at 3:46 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


But leaving them on public lands, maintained by public funds, is a slap in the face of freedom.

And what's worse, the city that actually has to look at these every day is the one that chose to get rid of them. It's people elsewhere in other states, from what we know about the events of today, that want to force the local government to maintain them with their own money. It's like some perverse version of court orders in desegregation that they're aiming for.
posted by thegears at 3:47 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]






McAuliffe didn't mince words. Your next President?
Oh god, the Bernie people would have an absolute conniption. You know how they talk about Hillary as being the consummate insider who is beholden to big money and has no real principles? That's how people I know used to talk about McAuliffe, and I am a Hillary person. My sense, though, is that he's been a better governor than anyone expected, and it turns out that he does seem to have some principles. I still don't think he should run for president.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:50 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


The Bernie people are paying attention right now, though. I think whoever brought a DSA flag to the counter protest probably noticed McAuliffe's reaction.
posted by The Gaffer at 3:54 PM on August 12, 2017


Joni fucking Ernst, who is a complete garbage human being, just put a thing on Facebook that is not terrible:
The violence in #Charlottesville that is fueled by racist hatred has no place in our society. We are one nation, under God, and indivisible. We cannot stand for this terrorism.
It is sad that this makes me feel better, but it actually does.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


Trump has now tweeted condolences with regard to the state police officers who died in the helicopter crash. He's said fuck all about the woman who was run over and killed by that man or the 19 injured (and possibly others killed, reports still coming in?). His silence isn't an accident.
posted by zachlipton at 3:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [96 favorites]


Actually, surely this.
posted by spitbull at 3:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]




CNN recently updated the chiron to "at least three killed". Shit.

Pretty sure that's the two in the poilice helicopter, plus the demonstrator who was run over.
posted by msalt at 3:59 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


AP: The Latest: Chopper crash linked to white nationalist rally

Officials say the deaths of two people in a helicopter crash near Charlottesville, Virginia, have been linked to a violent white nationalist rally earlier in the day.

It was not immediately clear how the crash was connected to the rally. Corinne Geller, a Virginia State Police spokeswoman, says the pilot and a passenger were killed in the crash Saturday afternoon.


I don't know what the fuck this means, if anything, but it's ominous.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


"Do you denounce white supremacy, and shun your white supremacist supporters?" should be the only question journalists ask Trump until he gives a definitive answer.

That's it. Don't let him talk about anything else until he answers that question.
posted by yesster at 4:01 PM on August 12, 2017 [88 favorites]


The last loyalists still standing around Trump are the white nationalists that clearly want this sort of shit happening more often. Trump would rather double-down on maintaining the support of the alt-right than risk them starting to abandon him.

What's interesting is that numerous Republican elected officials are being curiously silent in all of this. It sounds like their fear of being primaried by Alt-right supporters exceeds their interest in being decent human beings.
posted by vuron at 4:01 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


Mod note: Absolutely do not take this in the direction of Hillary vs Bernie.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 4:02 PM on August 12, 2017 [111 favorites]


When even Pat Toomey has a better condemnation of Nazis tweet than you, you might as well just put the armband on already.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:03 PM on August 12, 2017 [24 favorites]


"Do you denounce white supremacy, and shun your white supremacist supporters?" should be the only question journalists ask Trump until he gives a definitive answer.

The list of things that should be the only question he's asked until he gives an actual answer grows pretty much weekly. Sometimes daily.

At this point, Republicans in Congress need to be asked how much worse things have to get and how much worse Trump has to behave before they actually do something.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:05 PM on August 12, 2017 [18 favorites]


Trump just tweeted condolences to the police. Nothing to the people hurt and killed by the racists.
posted by Justinian at 4:07 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


I'm so very sorry for the people of Charlottesville and the people of good will that came to protest against the neo-Nazis. I'm proud of them, and everyone else who shows up to fight oppression and prejudice.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:10 PM on August 12, 2017 [27 favorites]


What's the point of trying to get a "definitive answer"? We had a definitive answer when he used quotes from white nationalist websites, hired Steve Bannon as chief strategist, and gave Breitbart a seat in the White House press corps. Trump loves Nazis and is a white nationalist. Do we really need him to come out and say so in those exact words? No.
posted by Autumnheart at 4:17 PM on August 12, 2017 [90 favorites]


So has any journalist yet thought to ask that scumbag Gorka for a reaction? The man who is officially a deputy assistant to the President who says people should stop criticizing white supremacists so much.
posted by adamvasco at 4:20 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Trump loves Nazis and is a white nationalist. Do we really need him to come out and say so in those exact words? No.

I would argue that, at this point, yes, yes we do.
posted by lydhre at 4:21 PM on August 12, 2017 [18 favorites]


The point is not to allow anyone whatsoever any coy games about his being a white supremacist, what that means, what allies of his are also white suppremcists and what that entails.
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


i say that if he isn't a white nationalist then we goddamned need to MAKE HIM SAY SO
posted by pyramid termite at 4:22 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Video of Trump stubbornly refusing to denounce Nazis is a very effective way to call him on his BS.
posted by msalt at 4:23 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Video of Trump stubbornly refusing to denounce Nazis is a very effective way to call him on his BS.

But, we already have multiple examples of that, from both before and after the election. Remember when he pretended not to know who David Duke is? He's stubbornly refused to denounce white nationalism in public repeatedly.
posted by biogeo at 4:27 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


Question Congress, too, and ask them if they think what happened is terrorism. Yes or no. No answer, cut he mike, walk away.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:28 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Hillary Clinton's statement on Twitter (threaded) seems very...pointed and tactical to me:

My heart is in Charlottesville today, and with everyone made to feel unsafe in their country. But the incitement of hatred that got us here is as real and condemnable as the white supremacists in our streets. Every minute we allow this to persist through tacit encouragement or inaction is a disgrace, & corrosive to our values. Now is the time for leaders to be strong in their words & deliberate in their actions. We will not step backward. If this is not who we are as Americans, let's prove it.

She put that out before Trump's bullshit. She subtweeted him before he spoke, knowing exactly the kind of bullshit he'd pull. And I'm sure his people are trying very hard to make sure he doesn't see she said that.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:29 PM on August 12, 2017 [132 favorites]


The ACLU are free speech absolutists and have never pretended to be anything else.

Unless they object to the government-backed intellectual property monopolies and enforcement regime, with the state busting down your door to throw you in jail if you use your freedom of speech to speak unlicensed words in public or your freedom of the press to publish unlicensed words, they aren't absolutists. Whether the IP regime should or should not exist, they're saying "all of these economically-motivated restrictions on speech and publishing are perfectly cromulent, but this other stuff..." Any actions they take or policies they observe shouldn't be evaluated from a perspective that for them free speech is so top shelf and inviolable that their elite principledness justifies anything.
posted by XMLicious at 4:32 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]




Remember when he pretended not to know who David Duke is?

That's less effective because 95% of viewers don't know who David Duke is either, and the ones who do either like Duke or already hate Trump. So it's a believable lie. Clamping his lips shut when asked to denounce white nationalists generally is different. Or so I hope, anyway.
posted by msalt at 4:32 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Seems important to note that he furthermore pretended to not know what the KKK was and to consequently be unable to make definite statements on whether it was okay to associate his campaign with an organization he wasn't familiar with.
posted by XMLicious at 4:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


35 minutes later: Condolences to the family of the young woman killed today, and best regards to all of those injured, in Charlottesville, Virginia. So sad!

Best regards? WTF?
posted by zachlipton at 4:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [35 favorites]


Yeah that's not what I was looking for, Donald, when I called you out for not mentioning the woman killed by racists. You're an asshole.

Best Regards,
Justinian.
posted by Justinian at 4:38 PM on August 12, 2017 [42 favorites]


I was happier when he'd failed to say anything at all.
posted by biogeo at 4:39 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


happier less miserable
posted by biogeo at 4:40 PM on August 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


Side note: Tiki is actually a registered trademark for "outdoor torches", owned by Lamplight Farms. Not a good few days for that brand team.
posted by schoolgirl report at 4:45 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


Let's not forget that today Trump called on the nation to love the nazis
posted by mbo at 4:46 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


Copied from Reddit:
So, I was there this morning.

I went with my church to counter-protest. We saw a lot of the white nationalists (read: Nazis) making their way to the "demonstration." They had shields and helmets and thick dowel rods that were used as flag poles, but were nothing more than beating sticks.

These people did not come to peaceably assemble, they came to fight.

I pulled some people out of a scrum with these people and got hit a few times for doing it. I watched as both sides hurled water bottles and other items at each other while the local police quietly watched. The counter protesters did not have shields, a few had helmets and a few had sticks of their own. I would say from 10:30 to noon about a half a dozen fist-fights broke out. There was pepper spray, there were smoke grenades. I don't know if there was tear gas, but a lot of people were running around coughing with hankies over their faces (i wasn't having issues so I gave mine to a woman who was).

I saw a lot of head wounds, which bleed easy, even if it's a small cut. I saw people getting washed down with milk of mangesia, apparently for the pepper spray.

I have been to a fair amount of protests, and this was not a protest. This was a call to violence by the right, plain and simple.

Sorry, to go on, but I need to vent about this.
posted by traveler_ at 4:48 PM on August 12, 2017 [149 favorites]


The DSA affiliated (but not limited to DSA members, it's for everyone) fundraiser for people injured in the attacks cracked 60k in 4 hours
posted by The Whelk at 4:52 PM on August 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


Joshua Green tweeted an excerpt from his book about Bannon and Trump: "We polled the race stuff and it didn't matter."

I bet there's some polls being conducted tonight. That is...fuck. I don't have any words.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


David Schraub: Nothing About Charlottesville is Shocking
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


So, I wrote that letter to the city, though I got other people to sign it, because I don't own a business downtown. It is not true that I asked them to reclassify the rally as a special event, but several media outlets reported it as such, mystifyingly. Instead, I simply asked the the relevant regulations be enforced, and suggested that they consider enforcing one additional one that wouldn't normally apply. I did this because the city seemed unable to unwilling to enforce their own regulations which, if they had done, this event would not have happened.

The city done fucked up. They have to know that now. Monday is when we'll get started on the work that will stop this from happening again.
posted by waldo at 5:05 PM on August 12, 2017 [40 favorites]


Driver identified: James Alex Fields of Ohio. NOT Facebook kid. (source: Emma Brown, Washington Post reporter -- Twitter feed)
posted by maudlin at 5:06 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


Side note: Tiki is actually a registered trademark for "outdoor torches", owned by Lamplight Farms. Not a good few days for that brand team.

sorry, Lamplight Farms, but I for one wouldn't mind if this fresh crowd of assholes got stuck with the brand Tiki-Nazi.
posted by philip-random at 5:06 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]




Side note: Tiki is actually a registered trademark for "outdoor torches", owned by Lamplight Farms. Not a good few days for that brand team.


Or the best few days ever. The days they prove the worth of their contracts and as human being s and become marketing legends that punched the nose of nazis and put a tiki torch in every progressive yard and balcony across the nation.
posted by ian1977 at 5:07 PM on August 12, 2017


This updated WaPo story confirms the identity of the driver.
The Dodge Challenger is registered to 20-year-old James Alex Fields of Ohio, according to vehicle registration records reviewed by The Washington Post. Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail Superintendent Martin Kumer told The Post that a man with the same name and age was booked Saturday on suspicion of second-degree murder, malicious wounding, failure to stop for an accident involving a death, and hit and run. Kumer said Fields is currently being held without bail.

Records show Fields last lived in Maumee, Ohio, about 15 miles southwest of Toledo.
posted by maudlin at 5:16 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


My forthright companion suggests that the design of the Tiki Torches be changed forthwith to include Stars of David, and I think further that rainbows, hearts, and as many other symbols of diversity and inclusion should go into the mix.

Truth! Integrity! Kindness! Inclusion!
posted by Devonian at 5:18 PM on August 12, 2017 [26 favorites]


I put it at 3:2 for that this dude was a regular on reddit's the_donald.
posted by Justinian at 5:20 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


I don't know that I can even post the bullshit here, but I'm sure many of you are aware there is a post on the preeminent nazi website that basically lays out how Cheeto was speaking to them, he didn't condemn them.... yeah, this is bad.

not looking forward to these guys and their plans for berkeley and sf later in the month
posted by waitangi at 5:24 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


The Dodge Challenger is registered to 20-year-old James Alex Fields of Ohio, according to vehicle registration records reviewed by The Washington Post. Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail Superintendent Martin Kumer told The Post that a man with the same name and age was booked Saturday on suspicion of second-degree murder, malicious wounding, failure to stop for an accident involving a death, and hit and run. Kumer said Fields is currently being held without bail.

Is this the same person The Internet was looking at earlier?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:25 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Oh please, bring it to Berkeley, motherfuckers.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:26 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


Nope. Totally different guy.
posted by maudlin at 5:26 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


It should surprise no-one that JAF is a registered member of the Republican party.

Ray: No, no it isn't. Completely different guy.
posted by Justinian at 5:26 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


not looking forward to these guys and their plans for berkeley and sf later in the month

Or Seattle tomorrow.
posted by spinifex23 at 5:29 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


TIKI Brand's PR folks have weighed in, in a kind of underwhelming way:
TIKI Brand is not associated in any way with the events that took place in Charlottesville and are deeply saddened and disappointed. We do not support their message or the use of our products in this way. Our products are designed to enhance backyard gatherings and to help family and friends connect with each other at home in their yard.
posted by zamboni at 5:32 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


waldo, I apologize for mischaracterizing the letter. I was confused by the footnote that referred to the "special event." I appreciate you providing a correction.
posted by CMcG at 5:32 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Well, the ACLU has challenged the constitutionality of CAFA (which is the law used to drive Aaron Swartz to suicide and which was invoked against Sergey Aleynikov) for years now, were lead counsel in Association for Molecular Pathology v. Myriad Genetics (the case invalidating patents on genes per se), represented the ALA in a DeCSS case, and vigorously opposed the TPP. If your position is that it has to oppose the entire U.S. IP regime to be respected as true supporters of the First Amendment, I guess you're entitled to that opinion, but I sure don't have to respect it.
posted by praemunire at 5:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


Does the ACLU discussion need its own thread?
posted by baltimoretim at 5:37 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


please stop with the Tiki stuff
posted by photoslob at 5:39 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


Family and I just left the ResistKC anti-hate rally, which was organized about noon today for a 5:30 start time. When I showed up at 5:30, there were 12 of us. When I left at 7:15 because the kids were hungry, we were at least 150-strong, and getting lots of positive feedback from the passing drivers. It made me feel a little better about the state of things. Look for the helpers.
posted by jferg at 5:42 PM on August 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


Tiki torch branding team; you gave us all a sad. Boo.
posted by ian1977 at 5:43 PM on August 12, 2017


Citronella tiki torches used to be a waste of money because they didn't dispel mosquitoes. But now it's even worse, doesn't dispel mosquitos but DOES attract Nazis.
posted by ian1977 at 5:44 PM on August 12, 2017 [38 favorites]


This was a call to violence by the right, plain and simple.

"On all sides" is insane and maddening. Tiki torches or not, you don't march with fire unless you're planning to burn something down.
posted by Standard Orange at 5:47 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


My only experience with people from outside Toledo was anti-Semitic ("Make sure you get your rent check on time - you know how those people are," my roommate's grandmother told her, and then my roommate reported to me). Driving through that part of Ohio, you see more than your fair share of confederate flags. It doesn't surprise me at all that Ohio (or, to be honest, the rest of these United States) breeds hate, violence, and white supremacy.
posted by ChuraChura at 5:48 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


I'm at a Lucinda Williams concert now and she dedicated World Without Tears to the people in Charlottesville.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:52 PM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


Those torches could be rebranded "Trump torches".
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:55 PM on August 12, 2017


I get feeling like the Tiki thing is a dumb distraction, but this is a culture war, and they don't get to be neutral. An anodyne statement like the one they made is the bare minimum to be expected, but any company that wants to be on the right side of history needs to be clear that they are aligning their brand against the Nazis. Better for them would be to follow their marketing babble with something more substantive, like:

"The use of our product in this way is so offensive to our values that we do not want any profit from it. We have estimated that at a retail price of $2.95 per torch and approximately 100 torches used during the march, about $295 were spent on our torches. Accordingly, we are donating $295, plus an equivalent matching $295 for a total of $590, to the Southern Poverty Law Center to combat hate crimes committed by those who misused our product in this way. We cannot prevent anyone from buying our torches and using them as they wish, but we are making it clear now: any time we discover that our torches have been used to spread hate and intimidation, we will translate that into a donation to the SPLC."

Make the Nazis know everyone loathes them, even the people whose crap they buy at Walmart.
posted by biogeo at 6:05 PM on August 12, 2017 [60 favorites]


Citronella tiki torches used to be a waste of money because they didn't dispel mosquitoes. But now it's even worse, doesn't dispel mosquitos but DOES attract Nazis.

This would make a great three panel comic. Panel one, guy sitting out torches for his backyard party. Panel two, guy and guests still swatting bugs. Panel three, Nazis looming out of the darkness, guests picking up huge fly-swatter.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:08 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


REACH OUT AND SWAT FACE
posted by ian1977 at 6:10 PM on August 12, 2017 [23 favorites]


And Mary Chapin Carpenter opens her set with The Times They Are A-Changing.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:11 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


@ACLUVA still has it shit up, FWIW.
posted by Artw at 6:13 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]




Charlottesville Vice Mayor Dr. Wes Bellamy is amazing. Just finished on CNN. An inspiring voice. Will look for video.
posted by spitbull at 6:17 PM on August 12, 2017


Your honor, I clearly didn't murder anyone! Who among us has not been guilty of a little boyish car-ramming?????
posted by ian1977 at 6:19 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


i can't say much - i'm so fucking disgusted i'm afraid what i would like to say would be deleted and probably rightfully so

let's just say i'm feeling the civil war thing really strongly today and if i lived anywhere near charlottesville i'd be plotting ways to deal with that statue and fuck the consequences
posted by pyramid termite at 6:22 PM on August 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


CNN is calling it a "car-ramming", not terrorism.

More double standards from the media. If this were a person any shade darker, this would at least be an "alleged terrorist" attack on CNN. As it stands, a chyron writer (perhaps) is concerned that we can't know what was in his heart or that we should be careful that we don't ruin this poor boy's future. Infuriating.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:22 PM on August 12, 2017 [32 favorites]


The statue sucks, but it was never about the statue.
posted by Yowser at 6:23 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


Think progress preserved the responses that Storm-prefixed websites have to Trump's speech. Some of them loved it. Trump does not trust polls, (since they failed to predict his election). It's likely that he thinks a lot of his support is a silent, or unpolled, block of folks who sympathize with the guy who drove that car. Luckily he might be wrong...at least anecdotally I'm seeing a fair amount of condemnation from Trump voters.
posted by TreeRooster at 6:23 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


The statue sucks, but it was never about the statue.

yes and no - let's just say that if the nazi fucks want to make it an issue then let's rub their faces in it
posted by pyramid termite at 6:25 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Oh, sure, the VA ACLU might be fighting for the state to investigate excessive police force shown toward the counter-protesters, but their social media guy still has a tweet pointing out one counter-protester who's carrying a weapon, so they're obviously shilling for the Klan.
posted by biogeo at 6:27 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Tracy Clayton explained on Twitter why the statues do, indeed, matter:

"I went through hell in school at Transylvania U in Lexington over this shit. glad it's happening now but if only y'all listened to us then. I'm so angry. I'm so mad. when we complained abt Confederate monuments/flags my university chose to side w racists, w Confederates, w the worst parts of this country. nothing says 'you don't matter' & 'we don't care abt you' like forcing students of color to walk in the shadow of the Confederacy. and this is what happens. this is the environment that Confederate monuments create. POC bodies are put at risk for a fantasy daily."
posted by ChuraChura at 6:28 PM on August 12, 2017 [63 favorites]


Personally I think the statue should be left in place, but incorporated into a larger statue of someone taking a shit all over him.
posted by biogeo at 6:28 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


CNN is calling it a "car-ramming", not terrorism.
posted by T.D. Strange 8 minutes ago [1 favorite +] [!]


Fuck this in every way possible.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:29 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


goddamn, i saw the video and you don't drive a car like that unless you're trying to hurt people
posted by pyramid termite at 6:31 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


When Ted Cruz does infinitely more to condemn white supremacy and calls for the DOJ to "investigate and prosecute this grotesque act of domestic terrorism" than the President of the United States, it makes it abundantly clear which side Trump is standing on.

THIS IS SO FUCKING EASY EVEN TED CRUZ GETS IT.
posted by zachlipton at 6:31 PM on August 12, 2017 [144 favorites]


Thoughts and prayers to anyone reading in/from Charlottesville and to anyone else terrorized by these actions.

Some thoughts on this appalling display of hate.
  • We need to call this instance of plowing into peaceful protestors for what it is: radicalized, domestic white nationalist terrorism.
  • These actions are just the latest chapter in a long history of such terrorism that started in colonial times.
  • Consequences must follow for the white nationalist radicals who attended.
  • In that vein, Sleeping Giants has the right idea: name and shame companies who give money to propagators of hate, along with images of the hate their money is supporting.
  • This tactic should be extended to people who propagate hate in meatspace and online.
  • If you post under your real name or make it possible to deduce who you are, there need to be very real consequences, such as losing a job, infamy for hate propagation, etc.
  • Corporations respond to threats to their bottom line and reputation.
  • There are more of us than they, so if we hit their employers in the pocket book with boycotts and threats to their reputation, we can affect change.
  • Individuals without money have a harder time traveling long distances, getting arrested, and driving fancy cars through crowds.
  • These hateful radicals need to again be scared that they will lose their livelihoods. It again must be unacceptable to show up to a Klan rally.
I am scared. Nevertheless, we shall persist.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 6:34 PM on August 12, 2017 [54 favorites]


But if they wanted to, Cruz and other Republican congresspeople could take an immediate, major step to quell domestic terrorism: impeach the president who's giving them aid and comfort.
posted by biogeo at 6:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [68 favorites]


So, I went on facebook and specifically called out people who had previously supported the various state bills to criminalize protesting in streets and indemnify people who drove into them, and so far the response has been "well I certainly don't support vehicular manslaughter I don't know how you misread that" and "I still say they shouldn't be in the street". So that's ... depressing.
posted by ckape at 6:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


goddamn, i saw the video and you don't drive a car like that unless you're trying to hurt people

Yep. He had room to build up speed. He also had a clear path for a getaway, which means he couldn't have been "mobbed" or "scared." The open road behind him and the open pathways to either side didn't intimidate him into ramming the crowd up ahead.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:39 PM on August 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


Even if all the people were out of the street, he hit cars with people in them. And sidewalks are easily enough breached.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:42 PM on August 12, 2017


Anyone else feel that chilly draft? That's the sucking sound of GOP congressional support finally being significantly and seriously withheld. I'm not trying to make light of the fear and the loss of life, or give cover to house or senate repubs, but the moron in chief keeps giving the leg branch reasons to turn on him HARD. Stay safe and never stop hoping and resisting. The people united shall never be defeated.
posted by vrakatar at 6:44 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Anyone else feel that chilly draft? That's the sucking sound of GOP congressional support finally being significantly and seriously withheld.

Where are you seeing this?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:51 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


I want to see the Chiefs of Police stand up and denounce this, and commit that they will be prepared for any nazi parties and anyone acting in an unlawful manner will be arrested. And that includes hate speech.

goddamn, i saw the video and you don't drive a car like that unless you're trying to hurt people

HuffPo: James Alex Fields Jr.... is charged with one count of 2nd degree murder, 3 counts of malicious wounding and one count of failing to stop at an accident resulting in a death,” Col. Martin Kumer, the superintendent of Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail, told HuffPost in an email.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:52 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


idk but aren't those sort of light charges for deliberately and probably premeditatedly driving really fast into human beings? why not first degree?
posted by angrycat at 6:56 PM on August 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


James Alex Fields Jr.... is charged with one count of 2nd degree murder, 3 counts of malicious wounding and one count of failing to stop at an accident resulting in a death

They should charge him with hate crimes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:56 PM on August 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


One other thought: There need to be many, many pointed questions for elected Republicans like Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, Marco Rubio, Jeff Flake, and anyone who supported Donald the White Nationalist last year. I want to know whether they think the institutional Republican party bear any responsibility for attracting shitflies like David Duke and Richard Spencer to their banner. I want to know what it was in their platform that made those Neo-Nazi copraphages feel so at home in the Republican party. If they don't understand the role that they, the so-called leaders of the Republican party, played in the growth of domestic, radical, white supremacist action within the United States, then their condemnations aren't really worth much more than used toilet paper.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 6:56 PM on August 12, 2017 [41 favorites]


Even if all the people were out of the street, he hit cars with people in them. And sidewalks are easily enough breached.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read the car attack happened in the pedestrian mall in Charlottesville. It's basically an outdoor mall area with restaurants and an Urban Outfitters. It looks like the car drove down one of the through streets where pedestrians have right of way and the speed limit is 10 mph.

My wife and I have spent the first week in June for the last 7-8 years attending the Look3 photography festival in Charlottesville. My wife is from VA and we love Charlottesville and this news breaks our hearts. I'm so over this shit. Every day shit gets just a little worse. This country has truly come off the rails.
posted by photoslob at 6:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


Yeah. I see a handful of GOP reps making the minimally acceptable statements that explicitly condemn white supremacy, instead of just "violence" in general, and just a couple that have directly said the President has to do more. Those are good things, but I've seen nobody withholding support or giving any indication they won't go along with everything else Trump wants when it's time for them to actually vote.
posted by zachlipton at 6:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


I will be totally honest, I am relieved that the guy is being charged with murder. I was at a solidarity with Ferguson protest a few years ago now and a car drove through it, hitting someone and sending them to the hospital in an ambulance, and nothing happened to that guy because he was "scared" and "panicked", even though that was obviously not what happened. At least they're calling this murder and not something else.
posted by Frowner at 6:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [73 favorites]


Anyone else feel that chilly draft? That's the sucking sound of GOP congressional support finally being significantly and seriously withheld. I'm not trying to make light of the fear and the loss of life, or give cover to house or senate repubs, but the moron in chief keeps giving the leg branch reasons to turn on him HARD. Stay safe and never stop hoping and resisting. The people united shall never be defeated.

[citation extremely fucking needed]
posted by duffell at 6:57 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


Any charges sticking at all will be a minor miracle, the system is specifically set up to protect guys like this.
posted by Artw at 6:59 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


I want to see the Chiefs of Police stand up and denounce this, and commit that they will be prepared for any nazi parties and anyone acting in an unlawful manner will be arrested. And that includes hate speech.

Speaking of (ex-) cops...
posted by non canadian guy at 7:00 PM on August 12, 2017


Yeah, I'm not holding my breath that the GOP is going to turn away from Trump over his weaksauce response to this. He's done and said far worse with impunity. He once said that he (or his supporters, I dont remember which and really dont want to look up the quote right now) could kill people and he wouldnt lose support. That's what happened today. The only difference is that he promised the murder would happen in Times Square, and instead it was on Main St, Small Town, USA.
posted by basalganglia at 7:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Mod note: One deleted - if people want to dig deeper into regular politics, midterm elections etc maybe take that over to the regular politics thread; let's keep this thread more to the specifically Charlottesville-related stuff.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


I'm glad he's being charged with murder, but I'll be happier less miserable if he's charged with terrorism.
posted by biogeo at 7:01 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


I'm glad he's being charged with murder, but I'll be happier less miserable if he's charged with terrorism.

That'd be a federal charge. I'm sure Jefferson Beauregard Sessions will be on top of it right quick.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:04 PM on August 12, 2017 [34 favorites]


Virginia also has terrorism laws.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:09 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


Is there a way we can block tv and radio signals from going into space for a while?

Because if there is intelligent life out there, we are really not putting our best foot forward this week.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:10 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


Massachusetts State Police statement: "We condemn the bigotry - and those who preach it - that sparked today's violence."
posted by adamg at 7:15 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Like she said, "deplorables".
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:17 PM on August 12, 2017 [48 favorites]




"I went through hell in school at Transylvania U in Lexington over this shit.

Lexington's Mayor Jim Gray was already planning to have those statues taken down (well, relocated to a visitor's center), and just doubled down on doing it earlier today.

And laughably in hindsight, Mitch McConnell and Gov. Matt Bevin both called for the removal of confederate statues during Bevin's 2015 campaign, which was of course never spoken of ever again the day he won.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:24 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


This photo of Cornel West marching with other faith leaders legit made me cry.
posted by Phire at 7:24 PM on August 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


Well, supposedly the first VHF television broadcast that could have had enough energy to make it through the ionosphere was Hitler during the 1936 Olympics, so this week might not stand out for alien life as all that unusual...
posted by biogeo at 7:25 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Mod note: A few deleted; again maybe not so much with the recriminations over the election
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:47 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


Who drove over protestors in Charlottesville? a biography
The car that plowed through crowds of anti-white nationalists in Charlottesville, Virginia Saturday is owned by a Confederate Flag activist from Oklahoma with connections to far right militia groups, numerous documents and other white nationalists confirm.
posted by adamvasco at 7:48 PM on August 12, 2017 [20 favorites]


@waldojaquith - My mentions, currently, are full of people who think that I supported Nazis coming to Charlottesville, instead of working hard against it.
posted by Artw at 7:50 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Which, you know. Good for him, but he should resign from that board.
posted by Artw at 7:50 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'm giving my rage an outlet by watching the original version of The Dirty Dozen. If you've never seen it, the plot is basically Lee Marvin and eleven other guys murdering the shit out of Nazis. I don't mean killing in the line of combat, either. The plot is literally that there is a plan to aid the war effort by murdering a shit ton of Nazi officers while they are at a resort, just coming up on them without warning then shooting, stabbing, burning, or blowing them up.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:51 PM on August 12, 2017 [26 favorites]


Which, you know. Good for him, but he should resign from that board.

To be clear, you're speaking to him directly, because he's already here in this thread.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 7:53 PM on August 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


Unsurprisingly, the NYT is exploring new depths of passive voice to avoid placing blame on any particular human being: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence

Car hits. All on its own. This is how the narrative goes when it's a white Republican man. By tomorrow there will be 40 columns calling him a good kid, he was scared, who just made a mistake, not to let this ruin the rest of his life.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:53 PM on August 12, 2017 [83 favorites]


This is an important thread by Adam Jentleson on how the condemnation media cycle works for Republicans:
Having participated from the Dem side in a few "do you condemn what Trump said?" media cycles, this one will be interesting to watch. 1/
It'll be interesting to see if the media finally breaks the cycle of pushing Rs to calibrate their statements correctly then backing off. 2/
Rs and their staff have become adept at figuring out exactly what "condemnation" language will let them off the hook with the press. 3/
Ryan's two-step today was instructive:

"This work? No? I gotta condemn white supremacy specifically?"

7 hours later: "OK, here you go." 4/
If all the press demands are words, Republican leaders will eventually find satisfactory ones. It's time to stop letting words be enough. 5/
GOP leaders are capable - more than anyone else in America - of taking ACTION to deny Trump the power to support white supremacists. 6/
The excuse you usually hear from reporters is, "what do you expect them to do - Trump is their president, after all." Well... 7/
Mike Pence would have a better chance than Trump of enacting tax cuts, and all the other things Ryan and McConnell want, as President. 8/
Look for actions, not words. Look for what people say first, not their fourth tries. Look for those who didn't have to be repeatedly asked to say the right thing before they begrudgingly did. Just look at how many tries it took before Trump begrudgingly disavowed David Duke.
posted by zachlipton at 7:58 PM on August 12, 2017 [56 favorites]


I'm giving my rage an outlet by watching the original version of The Dirty Dozen. If you've never seen it, the plot is basically Lee Marvin and eleven other guys murdering the shit out of Nazis.

On a related note, I'm watching "Spies Are Forever" and just sat through a song called "The Nazis Are Not So Bad." This wasn't where I was expecting this to go. I hope there's some Nazi pounding in Act 2.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:59 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Oh, and they just mentioned Vladimir Poopin.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:02 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


yeah this mealy-mouthed nyt shit is emblematic of why i could never bring myself to get on board the huge subscription push after the election. sure y'all, apologize for your election coverage, but then you actually have to do things differently. i'm not asking for you to be amy goodman or anything, but CHRIST, call a spade a spade. (to be clear, amy goodman is a national treasure.)
posted by Ragini at 8:02 PM on August 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


So, I am with the family at the cottage of some relatives, and have spent the weekend reading, eating good food, and relaxing. I was outside early glorying at the skies free of light pollution and clouds so we could look at the Perseids tonight. I so rarely get a chance to look at the Milky Way, as I was an hour or so ago.

I have looked at MeFi only a little this weekend, mostly shaking my head at the North Korea stuff. I read pretty much the entirety of this thread in one go just now and am grinding away tooth enamel with rage and frustration at what has happened at how 45 is handling murder and attempted murders by white supremacists. Lacking any better avenue to vent this, I headed into the room occasionally used by a clueless right wing relative (note: we are both Canadian) and tore down that stupid fucking Confederate battle flag he has had as one of the wall decorations for years. I tossed it in the garbage but I am open to other suggestions as to what to do with it.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:04 PM on August 12, 2017 [32 favorites]


@waldojaquith I just resigned from the ACLU of Virginia board.

What’s legal and what’s right are sometimes different. I won’t be a fig leaf for Nazis.

posted by Artw at 8:07 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


burn it, burn it, burn it
posted by pyramid termite at 8:08 PM on August 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


Ok so the suspect's facebook page is full of pepe and 4chan meme shit, plus neo nazi imagery. So there's no question about where he was coming from. None.
posted by Justinian at 8:09 PM on August 12, 2017 [40 favorites]


Trump didn't even pretend to put out a tepid condemnation of the White Nationalism which it's become clear that this individual was clearly associated with. That the White House spokespeople didn't even back away from his bothsiderism when pressed on it clearly indicates that his remarks were indicative of the Trump Administration position.

That he clearly tried to use this tragedy to trumpet his own "achievements" in office rather than go with a typical short sombre expression of grief just shows how completely out-of-touch Trump is at the current time or perhaps how desperate he is to maintain the loyalty of the Alt-Right and presumably the people financing the alt-right.
posted by vuron at 8:10 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


When Ted Cruz does infinitely more to condemn white supremacy and calls for the DOJ to "investigate and prosecute this grotesque act of domestic terrorism" than the President of the United States, it makes it abundantly clear which side Trump is standing on.

THIS IS SO FUCKING EASY EVEN TED CRUZ GETS IT.
Perhaps this belongs in the other thread, but I think a mistake a lot of us initially made -- even here -- was to think that Cruz was to the right of Trump. Of course, what we've discovered is that we've actually elected the most right-wing president in over a century; we all expected that Trump would be terrible, a nuclear threat, and a passive nazi sympathizer, but many of us (though by no means all!) failed to realize he was an actual, active nazi. I think this speaks to the question of Trump's intentionality: it is common to say, even now, that Trump has no ideology, that he is just a bundle of narcissistic chaos in the thrall of whoever speaks in his ear. And perhaps that's true. But it just shows that the "chaotic evil" framework -- a joke, but I think a guiding principle in many Trump analyses -- is deeply misleading, particularly in its implication that "chaotic evil" is somehow to the left of the pure evil of someone like Cruz. Rather, the chaos is what allows Trump's evil to exceed even Cruz, and go far beyond what the majority of his long-standing critics imagined even fairly recently. It takes a certain amount of "not getting it" to be truly evil, since being truly evil goes beyond self-interest or even cruelty into something more unfathomable and destructive. We all balk at understanding, or even trying to understand, what the hell motivates these nazis. But we know: we elected one. We understand each and every one of these people far better than we did a few short months ago, and the short answer is that their brand of chaos is in fact far more dangerous than even Cruz's malevolent scheming. We have entered a profoundly dangerous period, and as ever the only real thing standing in their way is the vast majority of sane, decent people who oppose them.
posted by chortly at 8:21 PM on August 12, 2017 [24 favorites]


Elsewhere in Charlottesville...

(will the NYT characterize it as "poles hit..."?)
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:23 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


I greatly dig this tweet by rapper Open Mike Eagle:
"nazis and confederates are white people that lost wars to other white people but somehow its still brown people's fault"

(Do check out his music when you get a chance. Intelligent, socially conscious rap somewhat similar to the best such music of rap's Golden Age in the 90s. Look for Dark Comedy Late Show, Dark Comedy Morning Show, Celebrity Reduction Prayer, and A Modern History of Dance. The last 3 have great videos on YouTube.)
posted by lord_wolf at 8:26 PM on August 12, 2017 [104 favorites]


"I thought it had something to do with Trump. Trump's not a white supremacist," Bloom said.

I got some bad news for you, lady.
posted by Justinian at 8:30 PM on August 12, 2017 [39 favorites]


Local reporters were the ones who broke the news to Bloom. She hadn't been contacted by the authorities yet.
posted by zachlipton at 8:32 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


He's already the victim in Republican media, the same day of committing a terror attack.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:34 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Elsewhere in Charlottesville...


Basically, these nazis apparently went around town beating and attacking Black people - they're saying that there weren't any police around and that a lot of stuff didn't even get reported to the police but is just floating around on social media, which tells you what kind of justice people think they'll get.

This is on the continuum with the Tulsa Riot and other white riots of that kind. That is what we're living through. We've got to pay attention - these are those times come again.

I think that it's in some ways even more important that people all over this country know and understand that these things are happening. It is easy for people to dismiss what happens to protesters - partly out of general American hatred of activists and the left. But people need to understand that Black people in particular can't hide from this stuff by staying home, and anyone with any sense understands that this is a "first they came for" situation.
posted by Frowner at 8:38 PM on August 12, 2017 [92 favorites]


"I thought it had something to do with Trump. Trump's not a white supremacist," Bloom said.

Well, she's half right.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:38 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


Fields has a promising future, once he gets this little legal problem behind him, with the Right Wing Media (see: Oliver North). A good co-host with James Damore.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:42 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Basically, these nazis apparently went around town beating and attacking Black people - they're saying that there weren't any police around and that a lot of stuff didn't even get reported to the police but is just floating around on social media, which tells you what kind of justice people think they'll get.

ProPublica has a good early story on this: Police Stood By As Mayhem Mounted in Charlottesville.
posted by zachlipton at 8:43 PM on August 12, 2017 [43 favorites]


We've been super busy, I know, shutting down the phone lines of our representatives in Congress and for good reason. I think it's time to shut down the phone lines of the New York Time, the Washington Post, NPR, and any other mainstream media outlet that doesn't call this terrorist attack what it is. I am tired of the bullshit propagated way too often by these folks. I plan to call basically everyone I can call at the Times tomorrow and I hope some of you will join me.
posted by Bella Donna at 8:48 PM on August 12, 2017 [38 favorites]


Of course he's already the victim in right-wing media. If you've been peddling the fairy tale that the world is out to get poor innocent white men for decades it's kinda hard to do a 180 and go with the narrative that this guy was radicalized by hate just as much as any foreign terrorist which are the typical boogeymen of the right.

So even when the evidence if unsurmountable it just becomes a "false flag" operation carried out by the left to tarnish the reputations of the alt-right. It's just another bit of no true Scotsman logical fallacy that the right likes to use to excuse the horrible actions of some of their true believers.
posted by vuron at 8:49 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


@yesyoureracist is identifying nazis. (did someone already say this? Sorry if redundant)
posted by sacchan at 8:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [29 favorites]


That's good stuff. Here's a picture of endangered Republican Senator Dean Heller of Nevada taking a break from working to strip healthcare from millions of Nevadans to pose with a white supremacist! No doubt it filled him with renewed resolve to help kill tens of thousands of poor minority Nevadans.
posted by Justinian at 9:02 PM on August 12, 2017 [27 favorites]




In case anyone is wondering how /r/The_Donald is reacting to all this:

- "Unite the Right" is a Soros-funded honeypot psyop that employs the "Pied Piper" strategy to damage the Republican brand by insinuating that Antifa goons disguised as Nazis represent the views of the entire Right Wing in America (This is what Creamer and Democracy Partners have been up to lately)
(that's all one topic title)

- FOX RIGHT NOW = "3 PEOPLE KILLED AMID CLASHES" - 2 died in an helicopter ACCIDENT - THEY WERN'T "KILLED AMID CLASHES" YOU IDIOTS

- We just entered a new phase today. What happened in Charlotte will be used by the left and the deep state in a final attempt to destroy Trump and his supporters. We must unite and be prepared for a very well organized battle.

- INFOWARS EXCLUSIVE: Virginia Riots Staged To Bring In Martial Law, Ban Conservative Gatherings

- Tucker is to Fox what The_Donald is to Reddit... I don't watch Fox, I watch Tucker. I don't go to Reddit, I go to The_Donald. Fox and Reddit are cucked.


I detect a note of panic.
posted by msalt at 9:07 PM on August 12, 2017 [20 favorites]


I do appreciate Republican legislators announcing that they condemn Nazism and the KKK. But as has been said, actions speak louder than words. And in addition, I feel like there is profiteering going on here. Many Republicans tweeting their anti-Nazi stances have not pushed back in any way against the myriad bigoted Trump administration initiatives--the ban on travellers from Muslim nations, the wave of deportations, the plan to halve legal immigration, the initiative to sue universities for supposedly discriminating against white applicants, the promise to kick trans people out of the military, etc. etc. etc.. But now they paint themselves as "reasonable and moderate conservatives" by declaring their are not in favor of Nazism or murder.

No. If you are against bigotry, then you have to oppose it in your actions, not just say, "Look, I have drawn the line. Carrying swastika flags is un-American!"

Though I agree, it's at least better than saying, "There was violence on both sides. Sad!"
posted by DrMew at 9:10 PM on August 12, 2017 [25 favorites]




.
posted by Deoridhe at 9:15 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]



Video (Twitter): David Duke today in #Charlottesville talking how how the hate rally "fulfills the promises of Donald Trump

To Duke and Trump: You'll take this country back over my dead, queer, Sincangu Lakota body.

This country is MINE! IT'S MINE!

My grandfather was taken from his family when he was only seven years old. Then he enlisted in the Army to fight the Nazis.

I've inherited his right punch and his left hook.
posted by blessedlyndie at 9:21 PM on August 12, 2017 [93 favorites]


Photo of one fight where a group of Nazis were beating up a black kid in a parking garage. He got away but was injured.
posted by emjaybee at 9:22 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


.
posted by daq at 9:24 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]




James Alex Fields Jr.... is charged with one count of 2nd degree murder,

There is hope! That's enough to trigger ( if a prosecutor wanted to go for the throat ) VA State terrorism charges IF the case is made that he intended to intimidate them in general. Again, it's there if they want to use it. I doubt they will.
posted by mikelieman at 9:40 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


Photo of one fight where a group of Nazis were beating up a black kid in a parking garage. He got away but was injured.

This is how civil war starts. Americans think the are immune because they are so wealthy or some shit. I got news for you, you aren't wealthy and you aren't immune. The minute you stop treating an attack like this as if it were perpetuated on your own child you have lost. America was on an economic upswing during the civil rights movement and it survived. We've been on a downswing for 25 years, this is not a country with much fortitude, people here crumble at the slightest problem. It's possible US democracy won't survive this. Maybe it shouldn't, if people think this is ok.

I hope with all my heart this kid is OK and he gets justice.
posted by fshgrl at 9:42 PM on August 12, 2017 [30 favorites]



Um, so Drudge.

This is the top of his page right now.

MAKE AMERICA HATE AGAIN!
CHAOS AT RACE RALLY IN VIRGINIA

which links to Daily Mail article which has one hell of a headline.

Woman is killed and 19 hurt as car plows into anti-fascists at white nationalist rally: Driver 'intentionally' accelerates into crowd and is arrested after riot cops use tear gas to break up violent clashes

Here is a cold link if anyone wants to copy and go there. I don't like direct linking these folks.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4783914/White-nationalists-hold-torch-lit-march-UVA-campus.html
posted by Jalliah at 9:46 PM on August 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Terrorism is exactly what this is - it's meant to make people think twice before going to a protest. I don't think it's going to work though.

The kid is probably going to try the "hey, I was just driving down the road all legal-like, then all of the sudden all these people appeared in the legal roadway, distracting me, and then... well clearly if they hadn't illegally been in the road they would have been fine." victim's-own-negligence bullshit.
posted by ctmf at 9:46 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


He'll just say the car with the conveniently tinted windows was stolen.
posted by Yowser at 9:54 PM on August 12, 2017


Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by gucci mane at 9:54 PM on August 12, 2017


He'll just say the car with the conveniently tinted windows was stolen.

Won't fly. Even if he wasn't nabbed with his vehicle he'll have bruising from the seat belt when he collided with the other car.
posted by Justinian at 9:56 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


I detect a note of panic.

Panic is the default state of the know-nothing nationalist when they're not gloating about an imminent or recent victory. If they aren't furiously masturbating at the overwhelming masculine superiority of their sun-dried Führer, they are tearing their hair out about the enemy horde poised to storm the gate. To quote Eco, "The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. [...] However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak."
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 10:00 PM on August 12, 2017 [38 favorites]


There's video footage of the car accelerating into the crowd and photographs in which the driver's face is identifiable as his. The Virginia Governor, Lieutenant Governor, and Attorney General are all Democrats who will be eager to make an example of this guy. They'll probably pursue the death penalty if the law allows for it.
posted by biogeo at 10:02 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Watch the Republicans scramble to distance themselves from Nazis they embraced yesterday:

Dean Heller runs from taking picture with a Nazi

The University of Nevada College Republicans delete pictures of their Nazi member
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:03 PM on August 12, 2017 [26 favorites]


Surprised they aren't just trying to photoshop them out.
posted by biogeo at 10:08 PM on August 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


I headed into the room occasionally used by a clueless right wing relative (note: we are both Canadian) and tore down that stupid fucking Confederate battle flag he has had as one of the wall decorations for years.

So, this isn't to specifically call you out ricochet biscuit, because individual situations are complex and you're in Canada, which means this is all a little remote for you. But down here in the former confederacy, there's no WAY I would spend any time in a house with a confederate flag decoration. And I feel like this is something we well-meaning white people need to get a LOT better about.

My husband and I don't speak to his parents anymore. The reasons are complicated, but a BIG part of it is their racism. For a while we would go to their house and sit around talking until the inevitable moment when his mom started in about the "n-words" and then we would just stand up and say "gee, it's late, gotta get going." Just, nope, not gonna sit here and listen to this.

But even then, I could never imagine my in-laws with Confederate flags anywhere. They weren't Out and Proud racists, just casual slur racists. They didn't want their coworkers to know how they talked at home. It wasn't important enough to them to fly a flag or put a sticker on their truck. Cause this is Texas, and we Know what that flag means, even if people won't always admit it.

But eventually it got to the point where my husband told his parents "look, if you're going to talk like that, I don't want to be around you." (Which led to "you can't tell me how to talk in my own house" and "then I won't come into your house again.") And I think that's what we really need to do more often. I'm a Southern-socialized woman, I understand the urge not to cause strife and to just go along to get along.

But you know, fuck that. If you're going to be hateful, if you're going to treat a Confederate flag as a decoration, then I'm not going to be around you. I'm not going to ride in your car with the sticker on it, and I'm not going to visit the house flying that flag on a pole in their front lawn (like one house near me). If I'm dealing with you professionally, fine I'll be polite. But otherwise, fuck these fucking racists. Racism isn't like an illness or bad habit like chewing your food with your mouth open that everyone just looks away from and pretends isn't happening, because you know that's just how Uncle Jack is.

We, as white people, have GOT to stop worrying about hurting the feelings of white supremacists.
posted by threeturtles at 10:14 PM on August 12, 2017 [167 favorites]


Romney's senior campaign strategist.

@stuartpstevens:
Hate is driven by fear. Racists fear a society where being white no longer gives them unfair advantage. Their fear should be our goal.

@XIVLegio:
What are the unfair advantages you enjoy Stuart?

@stuartpstevens:
I think that might have first started hitting me when I realized that I was the same color as the "flesh" crayon in my Crayola crayon box.
posted by chris24 at 10:18 PM on August 12, 2017 [95 favorites]


@XIVLegio:

What the heck is with these racist assholes and Rome? Fuck them, I disavow.
posted by Justinian at 10:22 PM on August 12, 2017 [24 favorites]


From WaPo:
“The violence and deaths in Charlottesville strike at the heart of American law and justice,” U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions said in a statement. “When such actions arise from racial bigotry and hatred, they betray our core values and cannot be tolerated.”
That's a surprisingly strong statement from Sessions.
posted by nnethercote at 10:22 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


Words are just words and I don't believe Sessions for a second, but I have to wonder what it is that's got the Republicans scared enough that Jefferson Beauregard Sessions isn't just giving a limp "what he said" parroting of Trump on this. Internal polling worse than the recent public polls? But if that were the case I'd have expected human backup plan Mike Pence to go stronger than Trump and he hasn't.

Maybe it's the old Klan "hide behind a hood" mentality, and Sessions hasn't embraced the Trumpian "let it all hang out because the base doesn't care" philosophy.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:31 PM on August 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


we'll see if 'not tolerated' == federal charges and a doj investigation into wtf-cville-popo?
posted by j_curiouser at 10:31 PM on August 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


but I have to wonder what it is that's got the Republicans scared enough that Jefferson Beauregard Sessions isn't just giving a limp "what he said" parroting of Trump on this.

I dunno. Everyone from Mitt Romney to Ted Cruz is out on Twitter & elsewhere showing that literally anyone else in the Republican party would be better than Trump. Sessions probably felt more pressure from that than from the boss who has been loudly and publicly treating him like shit for months.

Besides, as noted, it's just words. Sessions will surprise me only when and if he takes any real action against these Nazi assholes.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


Stop the "Alt-Right": We beat 'em before; we'll beat 'em now

I have to wonder what it is that's got the Republicans scared enough that Jefferson Beauregard Sessions isn't just giving a limp "what he said" parroting of Trump on this. Internal polling worse than the recent public polls?

Maybe their big donors are cutting bait with regards to Trump? It's already been a notably bad week (even in the context of his awful presidency!), and then this happened.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:37 PM on August 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


I can't bring myself to watch the video footage of the car attack but saw an aerial shot of the intersection after the incident. In the shot, there's another car that seems to have collided with the attack car from behind--can someone fill in on what happened there? And what are these photos I'm seeing of other cars with damaged bumpers and so on?
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:40 PM on August 12, 2017


“The violence and deaths in Charlottesville strike at the heart of American law and justice,” U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions said in a statement. “When such actions arise from racial bigotry and hatred, they betray our core values and cannot be tolerated.”

betray: unintentionally reveal; be evidence of
posted by uosuaq at 10:41 PM on August 12, 2017 [41 favorites]


Won't fly. Even if he wasn't nabbed with his vehicle he'll have bruising from the seat belt when he collided with the other car.

Good point, Justinian -- and that should also have triggered his airbag, shouldn't it?

Unless of course the airbag was defective -- or perhaps deliberately disabled, because if you planned to smash into people with your car, it wouldn't do to have the airbag deploy prematurely and cut the whole thing short, not to mention making it harder for you to get away.

So if the prosecution could show that the airbag was tampered with, that might go a long way toward disposing of any claims that the driver acted out of fear or on impulse.
posted by jamjam at 10:42 PM on August 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


In the shot, there's another car that seems to have collided with the attack car from behind--can someone fill in on what happened there? And what are these photos I'm seeing of other cars with damaged bumpers and so on?

There were (at least) two stopped cars on the road near the crowd, and the attacking car rear-ended the second car, which then hit the first. The attacker then backed up and fled the scene.

There's a photo circulating of a damaged trunk with a religious personalized plate, and that is not the attacking car. It's one of the other cars that was hit.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:44 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


It feels like we're at the end of the beginning, and the next chapter will be ruled by angry white men and blonde princesses.

That's been every chapter so far, we need some better writers.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:44 PM on August 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


My father fought in World War II.

Yeah, that makes me old. My father was about fifty when I was born; my mom was in her thirties. I'm now the age my father was when he died; it turns out that cigarette habit he picked up in the war wasn't good for him.

I don't remember him, of course. All I have are a few blurry photograhs of him and a book that he wrote about his experiences in the war.

This whole nation went to war to fight the Nazis in Europe. We mobilized our entire industrial base to beat the crap out of them. Whatever else might be said about the war, our campaign against the Hitler administration was right, and just, and we were lauded as heroes for doing our part to depose that maniac and the racist garbage who supported him.

Our identity as a nation is built upon those years; we came together as a country to do something unquestionably right. When we talk about the generation who fought that war, we speak with respect, because they sacrificed so much to the fight. Hundreds of thousands of Americans went voluntarily to their deaths to stop this toxic ideology.

And now, Nazis are claiming that this ideology is somehow American. That hatred, bigotry and lies are the American way. That they can declare themselves the superior race, and make hatred the law of the land, and threaten and intimidate their way into power.

Well, maybe they can. Maybe they have.

Now that they're flying their colors in the open, though, now that they're abandoning the dogwhistles that hinted at their bigotry and have given full voice to their true intentions, I think they're going to figure out something that they've forgotten about Americans.

We fight Nazis.

It's part of our identity. We've grown up watching Indiana Jones, and Superman, and the guy from Doom, and John Wayne, and basically every action hero ever fighting Nazis. Nazis are the standard movie villain for a reason; they're easy to hate. You can sum up their world view in a quick soliloquy by a beefy-looking bad guy, and your audience is on board with whatever mayhem you can inflict upon them.

If you can embrace an ideology that morally bankrupt, that transparently selfish, that stupidly hateful, then you're inviting the riducule of the world to be heaped upon you. And if you resort to violence in service of that ideology, then you have given the decent people of the world an open invitation to retaliate.

Do you know how hard it is, as a decent person, to find a good fight to get into? How difficult it is to find human beings so despicable, so hateful, so dedicated to violence that violence is an appropriate response? The amoral garbage of the world can get in fights whenever they want, so this doesn't occur to them. But there are decent, good folk who've nevertheless been itching for a good fight against an actual, honest to god bad guy their whole lives.

Now that the Trump administration has given all the Nazis permission to come out of the closet, I think they're going to find America a lot less welcoming than they assumed. I think they're going to be surprised at how deeply ingrained fighting Nazis is to our identity, and how long we've been spoiling for a fight.

Once America mobilized by the millions to fight a Nazi threat thousands of miles away. Now the Nazis are here, and they're trying to take over the country.

But there are millions of good Americans standing in their way.

These doughy khaki-wearing golf-shirt Tiki Nazis have invited the wrath of every decent American upon themselves by declaring their alliance with a long-defeated ideology of hatred and violence. They've made themselves into villains, and not just villains, but stupid villains.

My father left his life behind, and went overseas to fight Nazis. Millions of Americans did. We defeated massive, mechanized armies, we overran countries, we bombed cities to ashes, we sacrificed our own children to stop this ideology from threatening the world.

I think Americans are going to step up again. I think we're heroes at heart.

And heroes fight Nazis.
posted by MrVisible at 10:49 PM on August 12, 2017 [183 favorites]


The car the terrorist was driving isn't actually visible in the aerial footage I saw, only the two cars that were hit by it. Those two cars were in the middle of the crowd of people. The terrorist drove through humans at about 40 MPH and into the rear of one car, which then hit the rear of the next car, which then hit more humans. The terrorist then backed up and drove away. In the aerial footage taken by a drone, the terrorist's car almost entirely obscured by a building, and only the two cars which were forced forward by the impact are actually seen emerging from behind the building.
posted by biogeo at 10:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


In case anyone is wondering how /r/The_Donald is reacting to all this:

i have not once at any time for any reason wondered this actually
posted by poffin boffin at 11:04 PM on August 12, 2017 [100 favorites]




Man, Dean Heller is so fucked in 2018.
posted by triggerfinger at 11:12 PM on August 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


surprisingly strong statement from Sessions.

From one who knows well the views from inside the hood of hatred. #WhitePossumDown
posted by moonbird at 11:16 PM on August 12, 2017


We fight Nazis.

Well, we also fought the Japanese, and that appeared in the wartime propaganda somewhat detached from politics and mostly racist (also the Italian Fascists, but they were mostly absent from our anti-Axis propaganda). My father volunteered for the Marines, and because of his Germanic surname (it even rhymes with 'Hitler'), he was shipped from his hometown of Baltimore, Maryland to the West Coast to fight in the Pacific Theater (likely but not officially because they worried about him facing 'his countrymen' on the battlefield).

And it must be noted that before the strategically idiotic attack on Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt had an awful time trying to motivate Americans to defend our allies in Europe... there were significant parts of the population that were openly pro-Nazi (not just German-Americans) as there were in England even when the bombs started falling there.

The Nazi message has had a certain level of appeal to White Males for a very long time. It's no surprise to me to see the swastika flying next to the Confederate Battle Flag and other racist symbols. His time in the Marines in WWII effectively knocked any appreciation for these symbols out of my father's head... but he still didn't like "n-word" people, and coming back from the Pacific, he really didn't like Japanese (and didn't differentiate them from other 'Orientals'). This is what I grew up with in the '60s.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:16 PM on August 12, 2017 [41 favorites]




I have to wonder what it is that's got the Republicans scared enough that Jefferson Beauregard Sessions isn't just giving a limp "what he said" parroting of Trump on this. Internal polling worse than the recent public polls?

A lot of these guys have premised their entire political careers on the "I'm not racist; racists are the guys wearing the white hoods" school of thought. That ugly fiction is the glue that allows modern political racism to function, it's what allows them to pull out lines like "I'm not racist; I just want to stop voter fraud" and "I'm not racist; I just want the police to be able to do their jobs" and "I'm not racist; I just think we should honor our history." If Trump goes all in on his "on many sides" bullshit, it's harder for the rest of the party to hide behind that myth, the collective agreement that promoting racist policies is just politics as long as you do it from the legislature instead of in the streets.

And politically, what do most Republicans have to lose by putting out a statement condemning Nazis? If you say the right appropriately concerned words, the press goes away and leaves you alone, without anybody expecting you to actually do anything. And the only support you risk losing are the kinds of people who think a swastika tattoo is a good idea, and who else are those people even going to vote for anyway? Unless they're actively worried about a primary challenge from someone even farther to their right, Ted Cruz, Cory Gardner, and Chuck Grassley don't have to worry about a revolt from their actively flag-waving Nazi constituents, and all the rest of their constituents can go "well, he's not talking about us obviously," no matter what they believe.

The amazing thing about all of this is how far the window has moved back so quickly. We didn't have reporters shouting "do you condemn white supremacists?" at politicians because the platitudes of condemnation part was, for a short and blissful time in our history, assumed to be a given. Everyone is rightfully upset about the lack of an answer, but that we that we honestly all knew last night, last year, two years ago what Trump's answer would be, that we had to ask the question at all, that's exceedingly painful to me.
posted by zachlipton at 11:18 PM on August 12, 2017 [51 favorites]


James Alex Fields Jr.... is charged with one count of 2nd degree murder,


2nd degree?! 2nd degree, my pink butthole! He A) drove in from out of state, B) was caught on film doing a slow cruise, stalking the event earlier in the day, and C) getting a good, long, running start before plowing into the crowd. If that's not fully-premiditated, first degree, cold-blooded murder, I don't know what is. Fuck this bullshit!
posted by sexyrobot at 11:19 PM on August 12, 2017 [58 favorites]


John D. Whitney Sj:
There can be no comprise with hate: with racism, with Nazism, or with all the merchants of death cloaked in the veil of white supremacy. The Church--the People of God, along with those called to the ministries of service (bishops, priests, deacons, religious)--must give voice to the Gospel, where all are called to the kingdom of Christ as companions, as sisters and brothers. With Bonhoeffer, with Kolbe, with all the countless Christians who gave their life protecting others and opposing fascism, we must be resolute and unambiguous. We are washed in the blood of martyrs and strengthened by the certainty of resurrection, so let us commit ourselves to oppose the fascists, with our bodies, if needs be, and our voices constantly. Let us invite conversion with love, but never be ambiguous: Nazism, the Klan, the Alt-Right, white supremacy--whatever its name, racism is idolatry. It denies the intrinsic value of every human person, denies the fundamental message of the Incarnation, and creates of race a false god in place of the true God. It is a grave sin, and any compromise with it, diminishes all of us.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 11:20 PM on August 12, 2017 [20 favorites]


Thank you, MeFites, for the donation links. Some meagre support sent.
posted by runcifex at 11:22 PM on August 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


At some point people need to realize being a Nazi or a nationalist or a white supremacist makes them nothing more than a prisoner of their own hatred. We're supposed to have institutions that save us the emotional labor of teaching this, but in true Orwellian fashion, some people still end up learning to hate the word "liberal" and instead try to glorify this prison of their own making. But no matter how far they manage to climb up the food chain, they're still in prison, and all of their meals will be bitter and unfulfilling. Their only role models are the various traitors and cowards of history.

How else could one of the most "powerful" people in the world still be so miserable all the time?
posted by Arson Lupine at 11:35 PM on August 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


I don't want to see this shithead Nazi terrorist walk because they can't convince a jury that it was premeditated. If second degree charges are what it takes to be sure that this murdering asshole rots in jail, then good. The prosecutors know how to evaluate these factors, and overreaching with charges would be basically throwing the case.
posted by biogeo at 11:36 PM on August 12, 2017 [22 favorites]


In case it hasn't been explicitly noted here:

WaPo: "The FBI field office in Richmond and the U.S. Attorney’s Office in the Western District of Virginia said late Saturday that they have opened a civil rights investigation into the deadly car crash."

The Hill: Justice Department opens civil-rights investigation into Charlottesville crash
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 11:55 PM on August 12, 2017 [31 favorites]


I'm 100% behind the notions and, even more, the actions that support the phrase "I fight Nazis." Put me in that group, because hell yes, we must, or else. But I am so heartbroken and so angry that we must say this, that this fight is ever renewed, that the vermin never die, but slither out again and again and too many people never learn, never want to learn, and history repeats itself in transparently repackaged hatred, same as it ever was. But. We'll keep vehemently resisting them and their ilk. There's nothing else to do but fight the Nazis. Those who fought before us expect us to continue, humanity needs us to fight, and so we will, so we must. But. But I am furious we have to. How dare the Nazis come back, I think. Do you believe we won't resist you? We will, even if we're incandescent with anger that we must, and we will use this fury to make you shrivel back from where you came, because we won't let up. Goddamnit.
posted by but no cigar at 12:07 AM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


James Alex Fields Jr.... is charged with one count of 2nd degree murder,

2nd degree?! 2nd degree, my pink butthole! He A) drove in from out of state, B) was caught on film doing a slow cruise, stalking the event earlier in the day, and C) getting a good, long, running start before plowing into the crowd.


Sometimes states have weird flukes in how they define the different degrees, so I went over to the Code of Virginia to check:

§ 18.2-32. First and second degree murder defined; punishment. (from Code of Virginia, Legislative Information System .gov website)
Murder, other than capital murder, by poison, lying in wait, imprisonment, starving, or by any willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing...is murder of the first degree...
Huh. That...sure sounds like it applies here?? I'd be curious to know what the stated reasons are for the prosecutor's decision to go with the second-degree charge. Some legal or PR strategy? Do they plan to raise it to first degree once more information comes in? Or is it really just "go easy on the white boys"?
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 12:19 AM on August 13, 2017




IIRC it's common to throw the immediately provable charge at a guy after arrest to hold him in jail, and if the evidence checks out, increase the charge at a later date.
posted by msalt at 12:22 AM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


The car homicide is getting most of the attention but I also want the law to go after the perpetrators of other acts of violence, like the pack of white supremacists who beat up a black man with poles (link to write-up by Yesha Callahan in The Root).
Also: The garage where this happened is next door to the police station (from twitter @zdroberts of photographer who caught the incident on camera).
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 12:36 AM on August 13, 2017 [43 favorites]


Yeah, I'm not a lawyer, but the 2nd degree charge seems pretty airtight. In VA it comes with a sentence of 5-40 years, so there's ample punitive opportunity for a judge with the 2nd degree charge.

I'm also in agreement with the above statement that I'd rather see him rot behind bars for a few decades than try to stretch for a more punitive charge that requires a greater burden of premeditation and lose on appeal.

Unless they can show that he specifically had prior intent to murder people prior to arriving at the head of the street (as opposed to deciding to do it in a fit of rage once he got there and saw the people obstructing him). If evidence of that arises - say, that he told someone what he was going to do beforehand - I would expect the charge to change.

I'm also encouraged that there is now a civil rights investigation against him, as well.

There are so many layers to this rotten onion:

1. The fact that there are white supremacists that hold such ugly, hateful views, to begin with,

2. The divisive speech and incitement to violence from political representatives as a means to appeal to those people,

3. Especially the hateful bigotry and violent rhetoric coming from Trump, throughout his campaign and his Presidency,

4. That this enabling of hatred means that militant racists waving Nazi and Confederate flags, and carrying torches, for everloving sake, feel so emboldened that they stage an unlawful nighttime assembly, bare-faced, without any evident shame or fear of consequence,

5. That peaceful people demonstrating for tolerance and diversity are killed and wounded by a life-destroying member of those evil minions,

6. The numerous assaults by these militant racists on counter-protestors (the image of the black kid on the ground in a parking garage being beaten with rods is just chilling),

7. The death of two state troopers in their effort to handle this mess,

8. That even after all of this, while the country is reeling from these horrors, the President of the United States cannot give a full-throated condemnation of the worldview and goals of militant white racism, and in stark contrast to his statements on other attacks, can only bring himself to condemn violence from "all sides, many many sides" of the issue, and

9. The scum percolating to the surface from some right-wing commentators, such as the commentator who, from his perch of white privilege, deigned to lecture a woman of color on the need to "just move past" the leader of our country refusing to condemn white supremacy or to acknowledge the fundamental racism involved in an act of right-wing terrorism.

This whole thing sickens me in so many ways, the more I think of this poison. I started this comment musing on judicial sentencing, but I swear now my stomach is trembling and I feel like I have something caught in my throat and need to vomit.
posted by darkstar at 1:10 AM on August 13, 2017 [35 favorites]


Anyway several police officers at the station here think the guy running people down wasn't malicious. They said the driver was scared

Yeah, but then you DON'T drive through that area OR you back the fuck up.
posted by Samizdata at 1:22 AM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


For one moment, I'm going to try to seriously entertain that premise, because my faith and reason demand I not judge others without knowing what is in their hearts.

I can imagine being in a car, surrounded by people whom I've demonized all of my semi-adult life, hearing them shouting, possibly seeing them in his rear-view mirror where he'd just come from, seeing them on the sides, agitated, angry. Perhaps not seeing the vehicle ahead blocking the road.

And then the adrenaline kicking in and overriding more rational thought, so that the safest way out of the maelstrom of panic was straight ahead, even if it meant plowing through some people to do it.

If that's the case - and part of me wishes it were, even though a much larger part of me holds a dread certainty that it's not - if it's the case, then may God have mercy on him in whatever degree is right and good. Because I'm not sure I could, and just thinking about it makes me want to cry.
posted by darkstar at 1:37 AM on August 13, 2017


Sure, what a panicked but reasonable person would do in such a situation is an open question. Thankfully we don't have to figure that out because it isn't what happened. This nazi traveled from Ohio to Virginia to hang out with his nazi pals and intimidate non-nazis, and in a fit of rage when he and his dumbass nazi buddies were driven off the street by counter-protesters hopped in his car and did what right-wing radio and online personalities have urged; purposefully mowed down protestors on the street.
posted by Justinian at 1:49 AM on August 13, 2017 [102 favorites]




Just for the record, the white bear in the We Bare Bears cartoon (named Ice), is NOT a white supremacist (bears or people) and has (with the help of one of his animators) proved it.

I can't wait to hear from Jake the Dog and the Crystal Gems. Cartoons WILL save us.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:24 AM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]




In the UK recently, we had an incident where a male jogger pushed a female pedestrian under the wheels of a bus. People in the comments were trying to find a way to make it Not His Fault and It Was An Honest Mistake Because. I'm reminded of this as I see people now trying to make the car attack in Charlottesville Not His Fault and It Was An Honest Mistake Because.

Some times people are just shits who do very shitty things and we need to accept that. Trying to pull the Not His Fault and It Was An Honest Mistake Because cards for a neo-Nazi who killed a woman with a car is an act I'm finding hard to stomach. I saw it for the jogger and felt sick. I lack words for what I'm feeling now.
posted by kariebookish at 4:26 AM on August 13, 2017 [38 favorites]


Did I say that cartoons will save us from racism? This rambling essay-via-twitter by a cartoon scholar shows how Dr. Seuss DIDN'T.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:29 AM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


The topic of free speech will rage in public discussion for the foreseeable future. To me, it seems that there are intellectual traps set, that such discussion will continually run afoul of unless we manage to enlarge that discussion in novel ways. The trap is the wrong-headed idea that speech exists as some kind of context-less act, as if the act of speaking were separable from where it happens, and to whom. The words you speak with your lover have different meanings than the same words spoken in a public forum. Terms that are unproblematic in one context become weapons in another.

Words are being treated as if they were free-standing things. Words written are different from words spoken. The speaker bears responsibility for words uttered in a manner quite unlike text. And words chanted in public have a very very different meaning again. They define identities. They ground collectives. They stake claims. And they serve to define "the other" for those participating in them.

Writing is not speaking. Speakers own their words. Chanting collectively cannot be ignored and cannot be lumped in to the "right to make dank memes in my bedroom" or the "right to write the gobshite's manifesto".

The way "freedom of speech" is discussed typically ignores all of this.
posted by stonepharisee at 4:45 AM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


Sartre, slightly updated, without apology:
Never believe that [alt-right white supremacists] are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The [alt-right white supremacists] have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 4:49 AM on August 13, 2017 [59 favorites]


Seuss was fighting Nazis back when fighting Nazis wasn't cool. Literally. Nel is dumb, and in the light of c'ville, these little philosophical purity tests are repugnant. Seuss was going up against the Nazis when they were being backed by Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg, and marching, in uniform, in the streets of NYC. He never stopped going after them, even after the war was won. In this particular case, he's going after Axis propaganda trying to stifle American industry and smother our fighting strength. The result of this particular cartoon failure was Truman integrating the armed services, and Ike sending in the Marshals and National Guard to desegregate public schools at our judiciary's request post war.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:51 AM on August 13, 2017 [37 favorites]




Local resistance groups are planning a rally today in Bedminster (where Trump is right now). 5:30 at Clarence Dillon Library.
posted by Miko at 5:24 AM on August 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


I've been saying this for a while now: it's not Trump you need to be worried about, it's who he enables.
posted by tommasz at 5:27 AM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


We need to be worried about Trump and who he enables.
posted by dng at 5:36 AM on August 13, 2017 [36 favorites]


I'm also in agreement with the above statement that I'd rather see him rot behind bars for a few decades than try to stretch for a more punitive charge that requires a greater burden of premeditation and lose on appeal.

Quick question about the American legal system: you can't charge someone on multiple counts? So, for instance, you can't charge him with second-degree murder and also terrorism, and have him found guilty on the count of second-degree murder but innocent on the count of terrorism?

I ask because my family was the victim of a crime, and the prosecutor explicitly set up the charges so that the first count was a slam dunk conviction and the second count required them to prove a level of premeditation which they hoped would set a precedent, but they didn't hope enough to let the guy walk. I'm curious to know if that's not possible in America.
posted by Merus at 5:54 AM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'm gonna guess Miller.

@gabrielsherman: (NBC)
When I asked senior WH official why Trump didn't condemn Cville Nazis, he said: "What about the leftist mob. Just as violent if not more so"


@jaketapper: retweeted Gabriel Sherman
Except for the fact that one of the racists is in jail for allegedly killing someone
posted by chris24 at 5:58 AM on August 13, 2017 [41 favorites]


It feels to me like going for the lesser charge also says the police and prosecutors aren't going to bother trying to get anyone else on anything remotely related.
posted by Etrigan at 5:59 AM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


>What about the leftist mob

Yeah, here's the thing about those violence-inciting leftists, though: candidate Trump TOLD HIS SUPPORTERS TO ATTACK LEFTIST PROTESTERS.

"Knock the crap out of them, would you? I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees."

Why aren't reporters asking the President if he's gonna pay the Charlottesville driver's legal fees? Extremists attacking protesters was something he campaigned on; it might be the only campaign promise he's made good on so far.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 6:01 AM on August 13, 2017 [113 favorites]


Why aren't reporters asking the President if he's gonna pay the Charlottesville driver's legal fees?

Someone absolutely should be asking this. A picture of this and a quote from Trump should be circulating on the internet if it's not already.
posted by Frowner at 6:03 AM on August 13, 2017 [26 favorites]


I saw this on Twitter (@mckinleaf) and thought it was some pretty good terminology for making it clear that people who look like, for want of a better phrase, the relatable protaganist from a bland sitcom are often just as dangerous as the totally unregulated militias:
German has the terms stiefelnazi (boot nazi) & krawattennazi (tie nazi) to distinguish between skinheads and nice, professional, well-spoken [nazis]. The message being that the krawattennazis, who don't foam at the mouth & just want to ask some reasonable questions, are far more dangerous
But of course, the cost of the clobber that the stiefelnazi have on just shows that they're all actually krawattennazi playing a lethal game of dress-up.
posted by ambrosen at 6:07 AM on August 13, 2017 [51 favorites]


My friend who was there, a Lutheran priest, says that she and others were saved by antifa, who put their bodies between non-violent counter protestors and mobs of Nazis with sticks and brass knuckles. I've had mixed feelings about antifa in the past, and I know that many people of color on the left find them especially problematic, which I respect. But they saved a bunch of non-violent folks yesterday, including a number of religious leaders.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:09 AM on August 13, 2017 [98 favorites]


The Nevada Nazi kid is belatedly concerned about his future employment prospects

Sorry kid, you don't get to walk back marching with a torch in a Nazi rally. That's going to stick with you.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:11 AM on August 13, 2017 [91 favorites]


A wonderful Twitter thread: Imagine if these people ever faced any oppression
posted by buttonedup at 6:15 AM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


The Nevada Nazi kid is belatedly concerned about his future employment prospects

“As a white nationalist, I care for all people. We all deserve a future for our children and for our culture. White nationalists aren’t all hateful; we just want to preserve what we have.”

---

When you're too dumb to realize you just admitted it's all about maintaining your privilege.
posted by chris24 at 6:16 AM on August 13, 2017 [61 favorites]


A win!
Twitter user @YesYoureRacist, who has been trying to ID the white supremacists at the tiki torch rally, has announced that one of the white supremacists has been fired by his employer Top Dog (Berkeley hot dog chain).
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:17 AM on August 13, 2017 [68 favorites]


Update, the DSA affiliated (but not limited to DSA members) medical relief funds for protestors has cracked 100k
posted by The Whelk at 6:30 AM on August 13, 2017 [18 favorites]


Quick question about the American legal system: you can't charge someone on multiple counts? So, for instance, you can't charge him with second-degree murder and also terrorism, and have him found guilty on the count of second-degree murder but innocent on the count of terrorism?

Merus, defendants do get charged with multiple counts. Fields has been charged with the following, according to the NYT: "second-degree murder, three counts of malicious wounding and failing to stop at the scene of a crash that resulted in a death."

With the US, things get tricky because multiple jurisdictions come into play (state, federal). Defendants can get charged under state or federal law; some parts of law are controlled by the state, some by the federal system; legal definitions and rules vary depending on which jurisdiction you're in. In this case, I understand the current charges to be under state law, but someone previously mentioned that the terrorism charges would be under federal law.

If you're wondering about charging defendants with various degrees of the same crime, prosecutors sometimes do bring charges "in the alternative" and let the trial determine the degree. However, one concept to keep in mind is double jeopardy: if a prosecution fails to reach a conviction, a defendant (generally) cannot be tried for the same charge again.

Another possibility for later on is a civil suit (as opposed to criminal) brought by the victims and families against the perpetrators. Civil trials have very different implications from criminal trials.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:33 AM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


I first heard about legislation to allow cars to mow down protesters in the street without impunity back when the Dakota pipeline was being protested. I believe at least two other states besides N Dakota have passed similar legislation. I would like to see a list of states that have passed such legislation. This seems like something we can work on: getting these GOP jackasses to repeal these garbage laws. If not now, when? What exactly was the intended outcome?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:34 AM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


Senator Lindsey Graham says he'd like to see DoJ-DHS task force assessing size & scope of hate groups, report to Congress

Words are not enough. Graham is Chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Crime and Terrorism with jurisdiction over the FBI, DOJ Criminal Division and DHS anti-terrorism enforcement and policy. He can schedule a fucking hearing on his own, without asking anyone.

Republicans are desperately mouthing what they hope are the right words to make this all go away, so tomorrow they can go back to the same racist policies and encouraging dog whistles that allowed it to happen. Words mean nothing. They either take actions, or they'll continue to be collaborators.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:34 AM on August 13, 2017 [77 favorites]


I first heard about legislation to allow cars to mow down protesters in the street without impunity back when the Dakota pipeline was being protested. I believe at least two other states besides N Dakota have passed similar legislation. I would like to see a list of states that have passed such legislation. This seems like something we can work on: getting these GOP jackasses to repeal these garbage laws. If not now, when? What exactly was the intended outcome?

Yeah, the elimination of liability for the exact same tactic used by ISIL is concerning.
posted by mikelieman at 6:36 AM on August 13, 2017 [23 favorites]


Also there's a scheduled solidarity rally in union square today at 4 for NYC people's.
posted by The Whelk at 6:37 AM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


WTF just WTF. I'm an outsider and I know your country is fucking cuckoo but WTF is this. Listen up you don't get to "play" soldier, you want the fantasy get the reality; All of them straight into the forces. Do not pass go. Immediate. overseas. posting.
What the fuck is it that lets the rest of you have these arseholes wandering around. Get them off the streets. It's your country too why not take it back?
(apologies - rant over)
posted by adamvasco at 6:41 AM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


The Nevada Nazi kid is belatedly concerned about his future employment prospects

“As a white nationalist, I care for all people".

lolwut
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:42 AM on August 13, 2017 [30 favorites]


All of them straight into the forces. Do not pass go. Immediate. overseas. posting.

I'd rather not give them a job, training, and access to weapons, and then point them at someone else, thanks.
posted by Etrigan at 6:44 AM on August 13, 2017 [104 favorites]


All of them straight into the forces. Do not pass go. Immediate. overseas. posting.

I'd rather not give them a job, training, and access to weapons, and then point them at someone else, thanks.


Our movie selection last night was Full Metal Jacket (whyyyy) and I share Etrigan's sentiment.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:48 AM on August 13, 2017


I'd rather not give them a job, training, and access to weapons, and then point them at someone else, thanks.

Amen. There are already more than enough of them in military and police forces trying to live out their twisted fantasies.
posted by clawsoon at 6:48 AM on August 13, 2017 [24 favorites]


I first heard about legislation to allow cars to mow down protesters in the street without impunity back when the Dakota pipeline was being protested. I believe at least two other states besides N Dakota have passed similar legislation. I would like to see a list of states that have passed such legislation.

Tennessee is trying:

'Common-Sense Legislation' Would Shield Drivers Who Run Over Protesters

As is North Carolina:

N.C. House Votes to Protect Drivers Who Hit Protesters

And Rhode Island:

Motorists Who Hit Protesters Blocking Road Could Be Immune
posted by chris24 at 6:49 AM on August 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


Meanwhile, in Germany:

American Tourist Gives Nazi Salute in Germany, Is Beaten Up (AP via US News & World Report)
Police say a drunken American man was punched by a passer-by as he gave the stiff-armed Nazi salute multiple times in downtown Dresden. Dresden police said Sunday the 41-year-old, whose name and hometown weren't given for privacy reasons, suffered minor injuries in the 8:15 a.m. Saturday assault.

Police say the American, who is under investigation for violating Germany's laws against the display of Nazi symbols or slogans, had an extremely high blood alcohol level. His assailant fled the scene, and is being sought for causing bodily harm.

It's the second time this month that tourists have gotten themselves into legal trouble for giving the Nazi salute.
see also US tourist beaten for giving Hitler salute in Dresden, Germany (Deutsche Welle)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:53 AM on August 13, 2017 [55 favorites]


A lot of them are already ex-military and ex-LEO. Look up who the "Oath Keepers" are. There has been a targeted push among white nationalists to infiltrate law enforcement and the military. Please don't encourage them.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:53 AM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


A few things:

1. I'd rather people not play devil's advocate "well maybe he really was scared" crap about the driver, especially if you haven't seen the videos. I understand not wanting to watch them, as some are quite disturbing, but I have seen most of the ones being circulated and I want it to be 100% clear: The driver came from at least 2 blocks away from the mass of counter-protesters, and crossed an intersection with a pedestrian mall/plaza before approaching the block where the protesters were gathered. There were no people in the area where the driver was coming from, and to which he retreated after his attack. There are also some photos where his brake lights aren't on as he is plowing through the people. I sincerely think that he didn't realize there were other vehicles stuck in the street surrounded by people, and that he thought he would just be able to plow through the crowd.

2. I completely agree that the driver's white male privilege is part of the weaselly language in various headlines about the attack. But those of us who are bicycle and pedestrian advocates have been saying for years that it's essentially house style for news organizations to attribute collisions/crashes/etc to the car, not the driver. (And to use the word "accident" before any fault or lack thereof can even be determined.) This is just an especially horrifying example of the trend.

3. WaPo list of 18 states that have introduced or voted on legislation to curb mass protests in what civil liberties experts are calling “an attack on protest rights throughout the states.” Many of which ease penalties on drivers who hit protestors or increase penalties for protestors in roadways.
posted by misskaz at 6:55 AM on August 13, 2017 [65 favorites]


Well, from now on everyone who advocates for those laws is going to be met with "oh, you want another Charlottesville, only here?"

I bet it's going to be a lot harder to pass those laws now, and I bet a lot more people will understand what's wrong with them.
posted by Frowner at 6:59 AM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


A lot of them are already ex-military and ex-LEO

On that note, has anyone seen anything on the utter failure of the Charlottesville police? They, what, just stood by while Nazis chased down black people?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:04 AM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


Yes, low bar and all standing up to Nazis, but National Review and Weekly Standard are speaking out against Trump.

WS: Hayes: Why Won't Trump Denounce White Supremacists?
We know by now what it looks like when Donald Trump wants to condemn someone. Brit Hume is “a dope” and a “know-nothing.” Mika Brzezinski is “dumb as a rock” and “crazy.” Bill and Hillary Clinton were “the real predators.” Ted Cruz is a “wacko” and “weak.” Chuck Todd—“pathetic” and “very dishonest.” James Comey—“nutjob.” Intel leakers are “low-lifes” and Democrats are “phony hypocrites.” Republicans are “disloyal,” “naive” and “dishonest” while European leaders are “weak.” You get the idea.

Trump is quick to condemn—in specific and harsh terms—anyone he doesn’t like. He’s blunt, he’s direct, and he’s politically incorrect. So it was striking on Saturday when Trump refused to denounce the white supremacists and neo-Nazis whose public rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, led to violence. The racists marched the streets hauling Nazi flags and torches, chanting, “you will not replace us” and “blood and soil.” They taunted counter-protesters and innocent passers-by.

And yet when their aggressive behavior triggered riots and violence in the streets of the quiet college town, the president declined to condemn them. What he offered instead was a cowardly, irresolute, passive statement criticizing the generic intolerance of unnamed groups.
NR: These Guys Are Losers Too: Trump Fails to Condemn Charlottesville Racists
Even if you believe as I do, that Spencer’s form of white nationalism is a marginal movement granted far too much attention, the sight of hundreds of unmasked young men marching through Charlottesville with torches and chanting racist slogans inspires genuine fear in many Americans. Trump was given a chance to speak to that fear today, and to offer the same moral condemnation and deflation he’s given others. Instead he essentially repeated his disgraceful half-disavowal of Duke. He refused to call out these white supremacists by name, and condemn them. He merely condemned “all sides.” An energetic law and order president who had any sense of the divisions in his country would have announced today that he was instructing his Justice Department to look into the people in these groups, and zealously ferret out and prosecute any crimes they turned up.

This is a target-rich environment. Some of these scummy racists in Charlottesville wore chainmail, others went around shouting their devotion to Adolf Hitler. A president with Trump’s intuitive sense of depravity should be able to call them what they are: evil losers. More pathetic: evil cosplayers. Just as Spencer took Trump’s “I disavow” without a direct object to be a kind of wink in his direction, surely he’ll take today’s statement about “all sides” as another form of non-condemnation. With his performance today, Trump confirms the worst that has been said about him. He’s done damage to the peace of his country. What a revolting day in America.
NR: The Alt-Right’s Chickens Come Home to Roost
Incredibly, key elements of the Trump coalition, including Trump himself, gave the alt-right aid and comfort. Steve Bannon, the president’s chief strategist, proclaimed that his publication, Breitbart.com, was the “the platform for the alt-right,” Breitbart long protected, promoted, and published Milo Yiannopolous – the alt-right’s foremost “respectable” defender – and Trump himself retweeted alt-right accounts and launched into an explicitly racial attack against an American judge of Mexican descent, an attack that delighted his most racist supporters.

In other words, if there ever was a time in recent American political history for an American president to make a clear, unequivocal statement against the alt-right, it was today. Instead, we got a vague condemnation of “hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides.” This is unacceptable, especially given that Trump can be quite specific when he’s truly angry. Just ask the Khan family, Judge Curiel, James Comey, or any other person he considers a personal enemy. Even worse, members of the alt-right openly celebrated Trump’s statement, taking it as a not-so-veiled decision to stand against media calls to condemn their movement.
posted by chris24 at 7:14 AM on August 13, 2017 [40 favorites]


“As a white nationalist, I care for all people. We all deserve a future for our children and for our culture. White nationalists aren’t all hateful; we just want to preserve what we have.”
> When you're too dumb to realize you just admitted it's all about maintaining your privilege.

And "we all deserve a future for our children and for our culture" is just a rephrased Fourteen Words.
posted by postcommunism at 7:16 AM on August 13, 2017 [32 favorites]


I first heard about legislation to allow cars to mow down protesters in the street without impunity back when the Dakota pipeline was being protested. I believe at least two other states besides N Dakota have passed similar legislation. I would like to see a list of states that have passed such legislation. This seems like something we can work on: getting these GOP jackasses to repeal these garbage laws. If not now, when? What exactly was the intended outcome?

You would think it's like they didn't realize that when you run a vehicle into a crowd, people will be gravely injured or killed and that it is a horrific act of violence.


“As a white nationalist, I care for all people...

As a Jew, I know you don't think I'm a person. Go fuck yourself.
posted by louche mustachio at 7:23 AM on August 13, 2017 [86 favorites]


A thread with links to states proposing or enacting laws to allow vehicular assault on protesters. So far it includes NC, TX, FL, TN (home of fascist bigoted shitbag Glenn "Run them down" Reynolds), and ND.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:31 AM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


Am I a bad person for laughing at this video of the tough guy alt-right troll @BakedAlaska crying like he's mortally wounded after being pepper-sprayed?
posted by octothorpe at 7:38 AM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]




So white supremacy is the thing that must not be named, but saying "radical Islamic terrorism" is the key to beating it.

TPM: Adviser: Trump Didn’t Want To ‘Dignify’ White Supremacy By Condemning It
posted by chris24 at 7:41 AM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


Am I a bad person for laughing at this video of the tough guy alt-right troll @BakedAlaska crying like he's mortally wounded after being pepper-sprayed?

Well, here's Chris Cantwell getting treated being told "We're going to fucking kill them. I promise you that."

These people are dangerous. Stay safe.
posted by Talez at 7:46 AM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


Am I a bad person for laughing at this video of the tough guy alt-right troll @BakedAlaska crying like he's mortally wounded after being pepper-sprayed?

I felt a tiny it bad for him while I watched it and laughed yesterday, but that was before his shitty nazi troll-party turned into murder and national tragedy. Fuck that guy: he's a bad person who makes his living harming people. Watch any of his recent livestreams, or heck, watch the 5 minutes of the livestream before he gets sprayed, when he's walking through town on the way to his event and shouting oven jokes at random residents. I'm glad his gross fanbase thinks he's a whimpering manlet now.

(need for milk intensifies)
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:47 AM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


Oops.

Not even Robert E. Lee supported Confederate war memorials
So insistent was Lee on extinguishing the fiery passions of the Civil War that he opposed erecting monuments on the war’s battlefields. “I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered,” he wrote.

Rather than raising battlefield memorials, he favored erasing battlefields from the landscape altogether, according to documents at the University of Virginia and the Library of Congress.
posted by chris24 at 7:49 AM on August 13, 2017 [100 favorites]


Well, here's Chris Cantwell getting treated being told "We're going to fucking kill them. I promise you that."

Speaking of Chris Cantwell, he seems to be on the run from the law. Here's a video of a very upset, probably methed-out Cantwell (who makes most of his living selling T-shirts depicting leftists thrown out of helicopters) realizing what a boo-boo he made by committing illegal acts of aggressive violence on camera and trying to portray himself (who literally screams KILL THEM during every single episode of his radio show) as a poor meek little victim. He wrote a big old check over his career and is discovering that his play-nazi ass can't cash it.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:53 AM on August 13, 2017 [27 favorites]


I looked a little deeper into that hideous "All Lives Splatter" meme posted up-thread. In common usage it dates back to February, about when the North Dakota "you can hit protesters with your car" legislation was proposed. But it's older than that. The image is from 2014 and was originally a parody of stick families (text: "nobody cares about your stick family"). Text about protesters was added some time late 2015.

There's also a secondary "All lives splatter" meme which is about murdering people with sniper rifles, not cars. It shows up as a patch you can buy. Sometimes explicitly anti-BLM themed.

I like dark humor, I chuckle at memes in bad taste. But encouraging people to murder protesters with a car is a pretty tough one to laugh at, particularly now.
posted by Nelson at 7:53 AM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


I like dark humor, I chuckle at memes in bad taste. But encouraging people to murder protesters with a car is a pretty tough one to laugh at, particularly now.

To you it's dark humor, but I assure you they were never joking for even one second. It was an explicit policy position backed by Republican pundits and elected officials, and passed into law in at least four states.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:57 AM on August 13, 2017 [48 favorites]


I didn't post it because I think it's funny. I thought I made that extremely clear but I guess not.
posted by louche mustachio at 8:03 AM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Trump called the the CIA and FBI Nazis, but not actual Nazis.

@realDonaldTrump
Intelligence agencies should never have allowed this fake news to "leak" into the public. One last shot at me.Are we living in Nazi Germany?
posted by chris24 at 8:18 AM on August 13, 2017 [19 favorites]


> Oops.

Not even Robert E. Lee supported Confederate war memorials

Those nasty, violent cowards care not a bit about historical accuracy or understanding. The guy who drove from Ohio to mow down pedestrians didn't care anything at all about who Robert E. Lee was and how his role was defined with respect to the history of Virginia. They are cowards who cling to their twisted beliefs and will make every pathetic attempt to justify the unjustifiable.
posted by runcifex at 8:19 AM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


Meanwhile, Nigel Farage goes "oh deary me how is this possible".
posted by farlukar at 8:22 AM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


It's 40 years to the day since the Battle of Lewisham when the National Front tried to march through one of the most ethically diverse areas of London and was seen off by a massive counter protest. The NF basically never recovered from that.

All I can add to that is to do what you can; try to keep safe, but always resist.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:24 AM on August 13, 2017 [38 favorites]


Because I am a terrible person, that Cantwell video is giving me life. I want Nazis to be scared and crying for a change. So ... what's the easiest way to mirror a Youtube video? I want to be able to push a button anytime and see a holed-up racist freaking out.
posted by salix at 8:27 AM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


FYI -the Florida Bill that would have protected a motor vehicle operator's liability under "certain circumstances", Senate Bill 1096, died in the Criminal Justice committee.
posted by wittgenstein at 8:28 AM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


"Unite the Right" says it all, doesn't it? Look what they say and do when they get together.

(I have a pet theory that the US's rigid two-party system unfortunately amplifies and polarizes things. When the voter can really only choose A or B... if you can attract ANYONE to your party, it's votes. The GOP needed these nuts to feel included, in order to win the elections)
posted by Artful Codger at 8:30 AM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Ivanka: "There should be no place in society for racism, white supremacy and neo-nazis."

Why don't you start with the ones next door to your office in the White House? It's not that hard.
posted by JackFlash at 8:30 AM on August 13, 2017 [34 favorites]


> Because I am a terrible person, that Cantwell video is giving me life. I want Nazis to be scared and crying for a change. So ... what's the easiest way to mirror a Youtube video?

For yanking a twitter vid go here, you terrible person.
posted by farlukar at 8:37 AM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]




Ughhh and here's your obligatory reminder to not read the YouTube comments on the Cantwell video.
posted by TwoStride at 8:40 AM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


the US's rigid two-party system unfortunately amplifies and polarizes things

It's not the two-party system that did this, it was deregulation of media ownership rules, which gave rise to an unofficial nationwide propaganda network of talk radio stations, working in conjunction with Fox News to normalize the kind of rhetoric that used to get the John Birch Society dismissed as kooks by mainstream Republicans. Sadly, this attempt to move the Overton Window, when combined with a need to pursue ratings, created a really fucking toxic feedback loop. And now we've got a Republican president who is structurally unable to condemn white supremacy, and who lacks the moral backbone to do it if he wasn't. Blaming this all on the two-party system is just another variety of the "both sides do it" bullshit that's used to further the right wing agenda.

In my estimation, this country crossed a boundary yesterday. It does not matter what anybody believed about the Republican party before yesterday...all of those assumptions and definitions have been rendered obsolete. The Republican Party is now explicitly the party of white supremacy, the American Nazi party.
posted by Ipsifendus at 8:40 AM on August 13, 2017 [66 favorites]


> So ... what's the easiest way to mirror a Youtube video? I want to be able to push a button anytime and see a holed-up racist freaking out.
By mirroring do you mean copying the video and re-upload elsewhere? If so, you can try youtube-dl if you don't mind installing a Python script. It works with YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter, and many other media websites.
posted by runcifex at 8:43 AM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


White House doubles down on Trump’s Charlottesville comments, ignores calls to directly confront white supremacy

That's because He's One Of Them (TPM).

As JMM says, "Let's stop pretending." I don't think anyone here needs any convincing, but Jesus Christ apparently editors at the WaPo and NYT do.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:43 AM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


My first comment in this post was basically call them Nazis, but this is a good thread.

@noumenal_woman
As a historian, it's amazing to me that folks continue to say "call them what they are: Nazis!" when we're talking about a demonstration in
- Virginia (the capital of the Confederacy) that was sparked in large part by discourse/action around Confederate monuments.
- Yes, there are neo-Nazis in the number here. But we don't have to make the colossal reach across Atlantic for examples of white nationalism.
- Let's be specific to our own national and regional context.
- The United States of America, the South, Virginia, and Charlottesville have rich histories of white nationalism and white supremacy
- that get conveniently erased when liberals/progressives reduce Richard Spencer's ilk to 'Nazis'.
- It seems like a distancing move. Nah. These ideologies are close by, whether you'd like to admit it or not. This is our national heritage.
posted by chris24 at 8:44 AM on August 13, 2017 [64 favorites]


I always liked Confederazis, personally. But I think that's because I'm scared too many people will support them if we just call them straight up Confederates.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:46 AM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


Ipsifendus - Thank you for the comment. When pondering how trump got elected, I personally had downplayed the racism angle, and leaned more towards the idea that many comfortably-off conservatives decided that since he was Not Hilary, and that no matter what happened, they'd do ok, they could get behind him. After yesterday, i'm ready to concede that racism has played a bigger part.

I will note that in a country with more political options, the nutbars are shunted to the side more easily.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:48 AM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Don't leave Mike Pence's Indiana out of the list of states who want to let people mow down motorists in the street.
posted by headspace at 8:49 AM on August 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


Sadly, a huge percentage of the American population wouldn't cringe if you suggested they had some measure of sympathy for the racist traitors who attempted to destroy the Republic, so long as you left all that "racist traitor" stuff unspoken and described them instead as "the Confederacy". No argument there.

Weirdly, though, a large number the same people probably would flinch if you said they were in sympathy with the Nazis. And the shitheads in this latest demonstration didn't balk at quoting Hitler, or waving swastikas around, so fuck it: they're Nazis. If that's "distancing", it's at least not a form of distancing that lets so-called "mainstream" Republicans off the hook.
posted by Ipsifendus at 8:51 AM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


While it's true that not all of the many, many racists I've had to deal with identify as Nazis or Klan members or whatever, I'm okay with putting them all in the same basket. It's a big basket.
posted by salix at 8:56 AM on August 13, 2017 [9 favorites]


As a historian, it's amazing to me that folks continue to say "call them what they are: Nazis!" when we're talking about a demonstration in
- Virginia (the capital of the Confederacy) that was sparked in large part by discourse/action around Confederate monuments.


The "Unite the Right" protesters weren't chanting "save our monuments". We know what they were chanting. So the monument thing is no more than the string they picked to crystallize around.

Nazis, neo-nazis, fascists works for me. In a soup, everything touches everything.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:58 AM on August 13, 2017 [32 favorites]


White House doubles down on Trump’s Charlottesville comments, ignores calls to directly confront white supremacy

The shitty statement that didn't do anything mentioned in this link? Well...

@JessicaHuseman
The WH just put out a statement saying "of course" Trump condemns white supremacists and "nephew-Nazi" groups (?). It is unsigned.
posted by chris24 at 9:01 AM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


This appears to be a real screenshot of CNN's transcription. This is too stupid to be real.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:04 AM on August 13, 2017 [9 favorites]


It seems like a distancing move. Nah. These ideologies are close by, whether you'd like to admit it or not. This is our national heritage.

Heritage is a myth. In the literal sense of the word. There's hundreds of millions of Americans, each with their own story, their own ancestry, and their own relation to history. Our history as a nation is a big mess of people doing awful terrible things and people doing magnificent things. All too often the exact same people.

When you call a particular story your heritage and not just your history, you are not just making a statement about how things were, but how things are and should be. I, for one, would claim the "liberty and justice for all" part as my heritage and make this lot of nazis and traitors history.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:06 AM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


I'm sure it's coincidence that Trump is unwilling to be specific on Jews and Nazis.

@maggieNYT
This is not dissimilar to the Holocaust Day statement including "all sufferers" not mentioning Jews
posted by chris24 at 9:11 AM on August 13, 2017 [45 favorites]


So the White House is now sending official statements from devices with autocorrect. This is fine.
posted by jferg at 9:12 AM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


While it's true that not all of the many, many racists I've had to deal with identify as Nazis or Klan members or whatever, I'm okay with putting them all in the same basket. It's a big basket.

Hell, they themselves called it "Unite the Right." Every shithead and organization there was openly declaring allegiance to and mutual support with all the others.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:14 AM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


Wow. the Twitter Oracle pronounces, and the temple priests get to parse and explain it.

If the Orange Twit doesn't jump in front of a mic and categorically denounce the filth that descended on Charlotteville, like NOW... this will not wash off.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:14 AM on August 13, 2017


Here's a video of a very upset, probably methed-out Cantwell

I watched that video while making breakfast this morning.

A few things I noticed. He mentions that he pushed counter protesters out of the group because he feared for the safety of those people:
"Several times I had to push [counterprotesters] out of there because they were bumping into marchers and because I genuinely feared for the safety of those people. When they were jumping into our formation, and there's hundreds of white nationalists marching toward a monument ... them getting into our formation puts them at risk, and so I pushed people out of the way. And I spoke to them in an impolite fashion.
Saying that he was pushing counterprotesters away for their own good seems like a tacit admission that the white nationalists were there to be violent.

He also insists that the white nationalists did everything in their power to keep things from turning violent. He fails to state exactly what this means. He fails to say, for example, that they took such basic steps as asking white nationalists to remain peaceful and to report threats of violence.

He also talks about how regular listeners to his show will know that they "joke" about killing leftists. He uses the same defense that Rush Limbaugh's defenders repeatedly use: The show is entertainment, and he is an entertainer.
posted by compartment at 9:15 AM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


Until it comes out of Trump's mouth while on camera, it is not believable.
posted by yesster at 9:15 AM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


I spoke to them in an impolite fashion

I wasn't there, but some of my friends were and they report much more aggression from the supremacists than "speaking in an impolite fashion" and pushing people away "for their own good." Calling a bunch of combat-ready Nazis impolite is like calling the Civil War "that recent unpleasantness" -- such an understatement that you almost think it must be a joke.

(To be clear: it's not a joke.)
posted by basalganglia at 9:21 AM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


Tom Bossert (DHS) is on Tapper right now insisting on "both sides" and "all groups" and refusing to even say "neo-nazi" or "white supremacist" or to condemn or assign any blame to racism/white nationalism. This is chilling.

edit: he finally was forced to reluctantly say that he denounces nazis. He literally rolls his eyes first. It's disgusting.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:22 AM on August 13, 2017 [25 favorites]


If the Orange Twit doesn't jump in front of a mic and categorically denounce the filth that descended on Charlotteville, like NOW... this will not wash off.

The problem is, the President is already known to be a racist asshole. It's why a large chunk of the population voted for him. For the Deplorables, it's not a matter of whether the shit covering Trump won't wash off...it's the shit that attracts them in the first place.

Decent human beings rejected Trump a long time ago.
posted by darkstar at 9:24 AM on August 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


Oh sure, but it'd be fun to see him squirm, and then see the alt-right denounce his betrayal.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:28 AM on August 13, 2017


Mod note: If you're dropping identical comments into two threads at once, please stop and figure out which thread specifically you want to put it in instead. It creates confusion and needless duplication when two related threads start having identical content appearing.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:30 AM on August 13, 2017 [26 favorites]


I'm just going to assume anyone I see in a polo and khaki shorts is a Nazi

sorry Old Navy
posted by The Whelk at 2:52 PM on August 12


looks at SO:
- khaki shorts ... check
- polo shirt ... check
- yarmulke -- phew! Close one.

The day the Nazis start wearing kippot will be a very strange day.
posted by jb at 9:32 AM on August 13, 2017 [28 favorites]


Please let's restrict it to white polos + khakis, with an allowance that some didn't get the memo.

I love khakis, and polos are my summer "dressup" staple. No white ones though. I have a fetching turquoise polo that I particularly like.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:36 AM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


I went to counterprotest neo-Nazis in Charlottesville. I witnessed carnage. By Austin Gonzalez, chair of the Richmond DSA.
posted by biogeo at 9:41 AM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Tom Bossert (DHS) is on Tapper right now insisting on "both sides" and "all groups" and refusing to even say "neo-nazi" or "white supremacist" or to condemn or assign any blame to racism/white nationalism. This is chilling.

edit: he finally was forced to reluctantly say that he denounces nazis. He literally rolls his eyes first. It's disgusting.


@TVietor08: (Pod Save America)
This photo is a good summary of @TomBossert45's disastrous interview with @jaketapper today

PHOTO
posted by chris24 at 9:49 AM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


I'd suggest two compounds for widespread use (not mine, seen them around, but not enough): MAGANazi to connect the evil to its source and Vanilla ISIS to make fun of their tactics and goals.
posted by Free word order! at 9:54 AM on August 13, 2017 [19 favorites]


Isn't Bossert the same dipshit yesterday that couldn't even get the city right? All the best people!
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:59 AM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


This morning I posted this photo of a protest sign from the Women's March in January 2017 which said, "I'm Here to Knit Hats & Punch Nazis & I'm All Out of Yarn" to my knitting blog's Facebook page. Most people seem to be enjoying it in the spirit in which I intended it, but there are always those few:

Commenter: Unfollowing. I don't promote violence , no matter who is doing it. Terrible post.

Me: This is a protest sign from the Women's March, an astonishingly large and almost entirely peaceful worldwide demonstration -- very few arrests were made that day. The "punch Nazis" poster is, in effect, figurative and joking and not at all a promotion of actual violence.

Same commenter: In very poor taste. Yesterday in Charlotte, three people died because racists and liberals showed up to fight one another. Attitudes like this from both sides led to this tragedy. Two of the deaths,were peace officers who there to save idiots of either ilk from themselves.

Me: I have to disagree with your representation of yesterday's events, which seems to cast both liberals and racists as equally responsible for the chaos and violence in Charlottesville. Yesterday, racists showed up to march armed with shields, clubs and pepper spray -- their organizers explicitly encouraged them to arm themselves on their websites. The anti-racists were there to demonstrate against their hateful ideology and demonstrated no such violent intent. A neo-Nazi drove his car into a crowded street at 40 miles an hour, killing one anti-racism protester and injuring 19 more. There was no such act committed by the anti-racists. The two sides are not equal. And if I, as a liberal, post a protest sign that is, again, joking and figurative, it's not to promote violence but to give other anti-racists a moment of stress-relieving amusement and solidarity. And I think most of my readers will understand that.


I added a few helpful hashtags to the original post to clarify my intent for anyone who might otherwise accuse me of promoting violence (i.e., #inthiscontextpunchisafigurativeterm #pleasedonotactuallypunchanyone).

It speaks volumes about the "both sides-ism" of those who refuse to condemn the anti-racists and claim that anti-racists are equally at fault that I'm being called to account for a mild joke when, you know, the Nazi side murdered people yesterday. They're hiding behind false equivalencies and hypercriticism in order to keep from acknowledging their own complicity and/or responsibility for helping to stem the tide of bigotry and injustice.
posted by orange swan at 10:03 AM on August 13, 2017 [70 favorites]


It's creepy how Bossert has that same face as Spencer and Flynn... the Nazis went brunette but it's still an unmistakable look.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:04 AM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


On that note, has anyone seen anything on the utter failure of the Charlottesville police? They, what, just stood by while Nazis chased down black people?

If past experience is any guide, they feared for their safety.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:09 AM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


#All Terrorists Matter
posted by theora55 at 10:11 AM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Since America's white supremacy tradition intersected pre-WWII fascism and nazism and there's been a pretty strong overlap between neonazism and white nationalism ever since, I think it's reasonably accurate to refer to these folk as "nazis". But, speaking personally, I'm sort of on the other side of this where I'd prefer to call these people who are wearing nazi paraphenalia "alt-right" so that the two become synonymous in public discourse. Right now, as pointed out, "alt-right" wants to be semi-respectable. But when what television anchors are calling "alt-right" people are clearly "white nationalists and nazis", then that's an identification they're going to be stuck with. Seems to me that calling the obvious nazis "nazis" just plays into the alt-right's attempt to create distance between the two. But I can totally see the reasonableness of the opposite argument.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:12 AM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


On that note, has anyone seen anything on the utter failure of the Charlottesville police? They, what, just stood by while Nazis chased down black people?

If past experience is any guide, they feared for their safety.


Had that been the case, they would have been shooting people in the back.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:14 AM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


It's creepy how Bossert has that same face as Spencer and Flynn... the Nazis went brunette but it's still an unmistakable look.

Who are you? George Combe?
posted by Talez at 10:17 AM on August 13, 2017


Umm, Mark Zell who is Worldwide VP:Republicans Overseas and Co-Chair Republicans Overseas Israel, is a tad crazy.

Haaratz: Republican Leader in Israel Hails Robert E. Lee as 'Great Man,' Blames 'Leftist Thugs' for Charlottesville Violence
“Trying to blame the President for these events is ridiculous," said Marc Zell, head of Republicans Abroad in Israel. "The president supports the United States and the freedom of all Americans. Even before the events escalated, he called for calm and restraint on all sides – in contradiction to [Trump’s predecessor, Barack] Obama, who fanned racial tensions.”

Going on the offensive, Zell said that he holds “leftist thugs,” local authorities and organizations such as the American Civil Liberties Union responsible for Saturday's events. “I am, of course, no supporter of Nazis or white supremacists. But this very tragic event could have been avoided," he said. "It was clear to all that the leftist thugs would come out to provoke and escalate the events. These thugs are the ugly face of progressivism around the country. They are looking to shut down free speech.”

Zell continued, “Mayor Michael Signer and [Virginia] Governor Terry McAuliffe, who are both Democrats, are the ones who control the police. They could’ve prevented all this bloodshed.” Noting that both Signer and McAuliffe have been critical of Trump, Zell reiterated, “Those local authorities have much to take responsibility for and to apologize for.”

Zell also said that the car-ramming attack, in which 20-year-old James Alex Fields plowed his car into a group of counterprotesters, killing one, “must be investigated. I am confident that Attorney General Jeff Sessions, and the newly appointed director of the FBI, Christopher Wray, will conduct a proper investigation. And I will not be surprised if they find that the incident was deliberately provoked by the left.”

Noting that the demonstration was a response to the city's plan to remove a statue of Confederate general Robert E. Lee, Zell said that this is “a left-wing idea that says that history can be rewritten. It can’t. Lee was part of the Civil War, he was a great man and he is revered by many. Both the North and the South had terrible sides to them, but you can’t remove a statue because it offends some people. That’s left-wing violence.”

Although he condemned the “left” for attempting to shut down free speech, Zell also blamed the ACLU, which “should know, as we all do, that the right to free speech is not a limitless freedom. They should not be supporting these kinds of demonstrations.”
He also tweeted this:

@GOPIsrael
Not to sound too conspiratorial, but consider the possibility that Antifa and Soros contemplated the clash in advance.
posted by chris24 at 10:18 AM on August 13, 2017 [21 favorites]


On that note, has anyone seen anything on the utter failure of the Charlottesville police? They, what, just stood by while Nazis chased down black people?

Hey, it's not like they were doing something really dangerous like, say, being black themselves.
posted by non canadian guy at 10:20 AM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Not to sound too conspiratorial, but consider the possibility that Antifa and Soros contemplated the clash in advance.

This is the Infowars/The_Donald/James Woods narrative: (((globalists))) conspired, maybe with local authorities, to either stage the events or "let them happen." Expect to hear it more and more often.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:23 AM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


When you call a particular story your heritage and not just your history, you

This an important observation. The 2 second tour, I'm a Red Wings fan./ don't wear the logo, you Nazi fuck.
The nickel tour was meeting my aunt's foster mother, her father served in the confederacy. My father explained no "Yankees" have been in her house for 135 years. (Would have been circa, 1977) So i was on my best behaviour but would not touch the regalia collection, though listened and observed. As part Of my memory it is part of my history but a glimpse into ones story which is narrative for the most part.
The conclusion or even a summation of such a memory is hard to document at best. But it felt like a reconcilation and acceptence and I did not need that then.
posted by clavdivs at 10:25 AM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


> Since America's white supremacy tradition intersected pre-WWII fascism and nazism and there's been a pretty strong overlap between neonazism and white nationalism ever since

And indeed the Nazis themselves admired and drew on Confederate ideology:

How the Swastika Became a Confederate Flag
Hitler drew a similar, more sinister comparison in “Mein Kampf.” He describes the United States as “the one state” that had made headway toward what he regarded as a healthy and utterly necessary racist regime. Historians have long sought to minimize the importance of that passage. But in recent years, archival research in Germany has shown that the Nazis were keenly focused on Jim Crow segregation laws, on statutes that criminalized interracial marriage and on other policies that created second-class citizenship in the United States.

The Yale legal scholar James Q. Whitman fleshes this out to eerie effect in his new book “Hitler’s American Model: The United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law.” He illustrates how German propagandists sought to normalize the Nazi agenda domestically by putting forth the United States as a model. They assured the German people that Americans had “racist politics and policies,” just as Germany did, including “special laws directed against the Negroes, which limit their voting rights, freedom of movement, and career possibilities.” Embracing the necessity of lynching, one propagandist wrote: “What is lynch justice, if not the natural resistance of the Volk to an alien race that is attempting to gain the upper hand?”
Also contains the phrase "easy-listening white supremacists", although really I reckon at this point Nazi will do for the lot of them. Congregate with nazis: get to be called one.
posted by Buntix at 10:26 AM on August 13, 2017 [51 favorites]


Why no info yet, on the cause of the helicopter crash? What, exactly, links it to the violence on the ground? What else could the chopper have been doing, other than observation? I bet there's something behind it that's embarrassing to higher-ups and/or the chopper crew, and the media silence is because nobody's figured a way yet to spin it so the counter-demonstrators get the blame.


I always liked Confederazis, personally.

No, sounds dumb, it'll never catch on.

posted by Rash at 10:27 AM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


This is the Infowars/The_Donald/James Woods narrative: (((globalists))) conspired, maybe with local authorities, to either stage the events or "let them happen." Expect to hear it more and more often.

Yeah, just amazing to hear anti-semitic dogwhistles defending Nazis from someone who's Jewish.
posted by chris24 at 10:28 AM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Yeah, just amazing to hear anti-semitic dogwhistles defending Nazis from someone who's Jewish.

Yep, just like Stephen Miller denouncing people as "globalists" and "cosmopolitans."
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:32 AM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


Someone is always willing to sign up for the Judenrat.
posted by tavella at 10:36 AM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


McMaster calls it terrorism.

I felt all celebratory posting that, and then I was like, well...still kind of a low bar.

Still.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:42 AM on August 13, 2017 [25 favorites]


Why no info yet, on the cause of the helicopter crash?

Don't read anything into that. This sort of crash can be very difficult and time-consuming to investigate, for lots of reasons. I've known comparable cases to take many months for even a preliminary report.
posted by Devonian at 10:43 AM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]






‘I’m not the angry racist they see’: Alt-Righter became viral face of hate in Virginia — and now regrets it (Raw Story)

Paper his home town with fliers, get the biggest billboards, wrap the cars, and rent every bus bench. Rinse, repeat for every person there.

As for the word "Nazi," I think everyone should strive to un-normalize the word and stop using phrases like "grammar nazi."
posted by Room 641-A at 11:03 AM on August 13, 2017 [42 favorites]


4chan nazi remains applicable.
posted by Artw at 11:11 AM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


I'm reminded how all those horrible diseases we've eradicated through vaccination have fallen out of living memory. I haven't seen anyone with smallpox scars since the 80s. It's history textbook stuff. Now there's so few people with first hand experience, (oh so stupid) people feel skeptical about vaccines.

This nazi rally wouldn't have happened 70 years ago, in 1947. All the veterans of that war didn't just punch nazis. They fought the real thing with bombs and bullets and won. These chickenshits wouldn't dare throw a nazi salute in public with all those returned soldiers around with fresh memories of the battlefield.

Now those memories have faded into history, which doesn't seem to be taught anymore. Do these assholes even know that the nazis lost? The nazis are losers. The confederates are losers. Did they skip the last chapter in the textbook?

Do we need a new plague to remind people that vaccines are really cool? Do we need another holocaust to remind people that when you see a nazi, you declare war on them.
posted by adept256 at 11:11 AM on August 13, 2017 [58 favorites]


here's a photo... militia guys fully armed with rifles in public

From a close look at those and other pictures of these members of a III Percenter group calling themselves the Pennsylvania Light Foot Militia Laurel Highlands Ghost Company, together with the fact that the guy on the right in the first picture I linked is a particularly out-and-proud fascist, and the fact that these fuckwits are hypothetically not all very good at facebook privacy settings, it might hypothetically be pretty easy to find out stuff about them that would be of interest to @YesYoureRacist, mentioned above, like their names and the contact info of their employers. If one is not on Twitter, what would hypothetically be the best way to communicate this information to @YesYoureRacist?
posted by busted_crayons at 11:12 AM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


- Yes, there are neo-Nazis in the number here. But we don't have to make the colossal reach across Atlantic for examples of white nationalism.

We don't have to reach across the Atlantic for Nazis any more than we have to reach across the sea for any other political movement or idea whose ultimate origins are outside the US.

Nazism -- not neo-nazism, not white supremacism more generally, not anything except literal, direct, no-shit Nazism of the "we like Hitler" variety -- was quite popular in the US right up until we were at war with them and continuing to support our literal enemy in public became impolitic. Charles Lindbergh wasn't a neo-anything or just a white supremacist. He was a Nazi. And of course neither he nor the millions of other American Nazis were likely to have actually changed their views on 11 December 1941, just stopped expressing them in public.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:18 AM on August 13, 2017 [29 favorites]


A point made rather well by this tweet [and attached pics]

@BFriedmanDC "Would *LOVE* to know the name of Mr. 82nd Airborne Division here rendering Hitler's Nazi salute. The 82nd jumped into Normandy on D-Day."

and the reply: @danothebeach "Battle of the Bulge, Dec. '44: "I'm the 82nd Airborne and this is as far as the bastards are going." 82nd AB fighting against Nazis."

is how little this is about history, tradition, honour, or even pride.

It's all the acting out of fragile little-big-men who are so bereft of any other ability or talent that the only way they can justify their existence is to fabricate existential threats that only they can defend against. With their little wooden LARP 'murica shields, Tiki torches, pseudo-Roman references, and tacky golf club chic dress-up.
posted by Buntix at 11:21 AM on August 13, 2017 [45 favorites]


‘I’m not the angry racist they see’: Alt-Righter became viral face of hate in Virginia — and now regrets it

he deeply regrets being identified at a nazi rally and outed to his university
posted by indubitable at 11:21 AM on August 13, 2017 [34 favorites]


Nazism -- not neo-nazism, not white supremacism more generally, not anything except literal, direct, no-shit Nazism of the "we like Hitler" variety -- was quite popular in the US right up until we were at war with them and continuing to support our literal enemy in public became impolitic. Charles Lindbergh wasn't a neo-anything or just a white supremacist. He was a Nazi. And of course neither he nor the millions of other American Nazis were likely to have actually changed their views on 11 December 1941, just stopped expressing them in public.

Yep, America First was the motto of Lindbergh-era American Nazis before Trump started using it.
posted by chris24 at 11:22 AM on August 13, 2017 [36 favorites]


If one is not on Twitter, what would hypothetically be the best way to communicate

They don't appear to have any other public contact information. Probably easiest to sign up for a throwaway twitter account and DM it to them.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:22 AM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


I am on Twitter and would be happy to pass on info; my MeMail is open.
posted by epj at 11:28 AM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Do these assholes even know that the nazis lost? The nazis are losers. The confederates are losers.

I'd say this is the worst argument possible but it's not an argument. Trump won; we lost. We're losers. what does that mean about us? you ask "do they even know" -- why do you think they call it the Lost Cause? it's a huge part of the propaganda and what they try to make a gallant romantic myth out of. no shit they lost. yes, they do know and they fucking love it. A sense of intolerable injury is the white supremacist's best friend. "Losers" is a little-kid insult and just because these racists are dumb sociopaths doesn't make them vulnerable to every silly thing we wish they might be vulnerable to. as if, because fascists are the kinds of people who call people "losers," it must pain them greatly if we call them that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:37 AM on August 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


Heh. The guy who regrets beings photographed said he didn't think that picture would be shared that much. I have bad news for you, little buddy. That photo has a Getty Images watermark.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:39 AM on August 13, 2017 [85 favorites]


He'll insult anyone and everyone except Putin and Nazis.

On that note, I wonder what Putin and the Russian government have to say about the refusal of Trump to condemn neo-Nazis.
posted by ZeusHumms at 11:39 AM on August 13, 2017


Be like the dude in the 82nd airborne division linked in buntix's comment above.

This is the line, from here we yield no more.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:41 AM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]




> On that note, I wonder what Putin and the Russian government have to say about the refusal of Trump to condemn neo-Nazis.

I'm guessing either "Yay!", or "Please note that you are infringing our copyright by having your superpower usurped by means of manipulating the far-right movement".
posted by Buntix at 11:46 AM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


So... One end of the political spectrum on the Sunday morning talkshow circuit openly includes KKK-brand white supremacy, and the President is trotting out the "both sides" fallacy as justification. People will fight to move the spectrum back but it's going to get worse before it gets better. It won't move back as long as he is President. Putting this devilry back in the box is probably going to cost many more lives.

This is precisely the danger that I thought Sarah Palin posed 8+ years ago with her "real Americans," proud to be stupid shtick. Sooner or later the stupid, hateful people gain asendency because they are stubbornly committed and have little else. Happened a little more quickly and thoroughly than I thought it would, but Christ here we are.
posted by milarepa at 11:55 AM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


FYI: The above mentioned @YesYoureRacist has a Patreon page.
posted by bouvin at 11:58 AM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


I'm using my knitting blog's platform to... speak out against Nazis.

I had to type out those words, to make them into a coherent, visible sentence, in order to process them.
posted by orange swan at 12:08 PM on August 13, 2017 [53 favorites]


the Neo-Nazi alleged concern about erasure of white guy history is pretty grotesque considering how many native civilizations white guys have wiped out.
posted by angrycat at 12:09 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


Ted Lieu
Ted Lieu @tedlieu

There are many sides to @realDonaldTrump, but why does he appear beholden to David Duke and Vladimir Putin? #Charlottesville

Hey @realDonaldTrump, Americans have a simple question for you. Whose side are you on?

Having reflected, I have now concluded the #Charlottesville speech by @realDonaldTrump shows he is a coward. Hope he finds some courage soon
posted by Room 641-A at 12:10 PM on August 13, 2017 [26 favorites]


‘I’m not the angry racist they see’: Alt-Righter became viral face of hate in Virginia — and now regrets it

he deeply regrets being identified at a nazi rally and outed to his university


yup, his life just took a self-inflicted u-turn, or maybe it just piled off into chasm. The only possible upside is that he's only twenty. I believed a few dumb things when I was twenty; nothing as dumb as white nationalism etc, but cringeworthy nevertheless, and, key point, I was able to see it as much within two or three years. So yeah, this guy's still young enough to realize what a colossal fool he's been and actually change. Here's hoping.
posted by philip-random at 12:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


If you need a pick-me-up, you can watch Jason Kessler, who organized the march, being chased out of his own press conference by protestors (alternate view) (the crowd as he showed up)
posted by zachlipton at 12:15 PM on August 13, 2017 [35 favorites]




So yeah, this guy's still young enough to realize what a colossal fool he's been and actually change. Here's hoping.

Orrrr I'm guessing he'll fall farther down the cesspool of white fragility and toxic masculinity and believe that it's all the non-Aryans' fault that his life is now so harrrrrd. Some of his classmates on Twitter were worried that he'll now be the kind of kid to contemplate a school shooting, and, horrifically, that's no longer a far-fetched idea in these times.
posted by TwoStride at 12:16 PM on August 13, 2017 [29 favorites]


From The Root article linked by FelliniBlank:

You don’t aim for someone’s head while wielding a metal pole if you don’t intend on inflicting grievous bodily harm or worse. And the fact that there is not, in fact, a branch of Metal-Poles-’R-Us in downtown Charlottesville that was giving out free samples yesterday, that means these pond scum came with the metal poles to inflict harm. Intent is pretty damn clear.


We have to stop these white supremacist thugs before they think they can take this violence to more non-white, non-Christian, non-straight people, and to the white people who won't play ball with them like Heather Heyer. It's going to be hard when half the government actually agrees with them, but what choice do we have but to press on for our right to exist?
posted by droplet at 12:21 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


Thank God the police intervened and ushered Kessler to safety! I could only imagine what would have happened if they stood by and did nothing! (/sarcasm)
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 12:29 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


> I'm using my knitting blog's platform to... speak out against Nazis.

You're following in a great tradition there.

See also gardening for victory. There's a long history of sane productive people turning their tools against fascists.

Also art and music (like in that movie House's mate was in).

---

Another good point made in that film (and so many other books, films, documentaries and actual history that happened in real reality) is that when the fascists take power, they don't ease up. They empower every other little angry hateful bigot and put them in positions of power.
posted by Buntix at 12:36 PM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


They're hiding behind false equivalencies and hypercriticism in order to keep from acknowledging their own complicity and/or responsibility for helping to stem the tide of bigotry and injustice.


I just had a brain wave about politics-as-aesthetics and the demonstrated human preference for symmetry.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


"Both sides!" and the Overton window shift is a bit of a motherfucker as combos go.
posted by Artw at 12:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


If you need a pick-me-up, you can watch Jason Kessler, who organized the march, being chased out of his own press conference by protestors

If you feel bad for Jason's freedom of speech for one fleeting second, he posted this video literally an hour before the press conference, titled "Government Officials Set a Trap for Unite the Right." Based on the video, this is what he was going to say: "this is all the fault of the Charlottesville local government, local police, and antifascists. Oh, and the car thing was bad of course, whatever, who knows why he did it though. The police led us into a trap."

Dude wasn't about to apologize, denounce, or even really defend himself. If he had been allowed to speak at the press conference, he would be inciting violence against himself, against the people of Charlottesville and even against the local police. The fact that police still intervened quickly to rescue him by wading into an angry crowd despite him being about to denounce them speaks well of them.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:49 PM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


Aren't men who are killed while protesting referred to as heroes?

I find it galling to see Heather Heyer repeatedly identified as "victim."
posted by mrmurbles at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


What, what? She is the victim. Anybody who died there would be called a victim. That just seems like searching for a reason to be angry.
posted by Justinian at 1:06 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


(content warning: link to white supremacist's YT) Jason Kessler, professional scumbag and white supremacist, blames everyone but himself.
posted by Yowser at 1:08 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Lots of great info in those YT comments about how the car Nazi was a secret Jew because his mother's name was Bloom
posted by theodolite at 1:11 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


If you feel bad for Jason's freedom of speech for one fleeting second, he posted this video yt literally an hour before the press conference,

This is exactly why the police should have been on high alert yesterday; they knew from the unlawful torch March that these people didn't go there to protest peacfully. Now the people and cameras are there, watching, and the DOJ is sniffing around.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:15 PM on August 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


What, what? She is the victim. Anybody who died there would be called a victim. That just seems like searching for a reason to be angry.

No, calling her a victim takes away her agency. She was there protesting, not getting an ice cream. She was a white person, standing up for people who are not white, and she died for it. I believe this would be more likely to be recognized if she were a dude based on my general lived experience of women being seen as victims and men being seen as heroes, though these threads move too fast for me too run off and find things to cite right this minute.
posted by mrmurbles at 1:16 PM on August 13, 2017 [29 favorites]


Why not both? She was a victim of a senseless act and a hero for being there opposing these people. But calling her a hero in the press would imply something was wrong about being on the other side and WE CAN'T HAVE THAT.
posted by delfin at 1:16 PM on August 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


Am I a bad person for laughing at this video yt of the tough guy alt-right troll @BakedAlaska crying like he's mortally wounded after being pepper-sprayed?

No, but I feel like a lot of people are missing what he was doing there. He was hamming it up for the camera on purpose. Some people are going to say "what a baby" (although use a different word). Maybe even some in the alt-right are going to think that way. But MORE people are going to fall for what he was doing there - they're ATTACKING US! We're in a WAR! We need to FIGHT!

I mean, I've been pepper sprayed (on purpose, for training). It sucks. But watch that video again - he was exaggerating for effect, screaming MEDIC! and acting like he was going to die. Knowing he was on camera. FOR the camera. Did he even get sprayed for fuck's sake, or just make the whole thing up?
posted by ctmf at 1:18 PM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


in this environment where some feel like calling car Nazi a 'secret Jew,' I support the efforts of @yesyoureracist but I fear for her/his welfare. I hope she/he has like 15 layers of security between the twitter account and IRL
posted by angrycat at 1:19 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Did he even get sprayed for fuck's sake, or just make the whole thing up?

I think he did get sprayed, that he was definitely hamming it up, but that he didn't get the intended sympathy from his supporters. Many very negative comments from alt-right chuds that should be his buddies.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:20 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


I was against the militarization of the response in Ferguson, but I think we're at the point where we need that. The state needs to maintain the monopoly on violence. Because the next predictable thing is both sides bringing militias and guns and using them for their protection. And that goes nowhere good. Everyone needs to know the first side to start violence automatically takes on the full force of the state.

And yeah, I don't especially like where that leads either, but not deterring domestic armed conflict is worse.
posted by ctmf at 1:25 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Sorry for the double post, Rust Moranis.

(Content warning: link to scumbag's Periscope)
To make up for it, here is professional scumbag, white nationalist, and (hopefully) soon-to-be next SPLC lawsuit loser for stochastic terrorism, Jason Kessler blaming everyone but himself AFTER the press conference
posted by Yowser at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


I think reading up on the Weimar Republic is a good way to get some historical perspective on our current situation and then figuring out "what we do about this" with a keen eye on what happened in Germany from 1929-1933.
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:31 PM on August 13, 2017 [23 favorites]


[...] good way to get some historical perspective on our current situation [...]

I also highly recommend William Shirer's Berlin Diary.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:37 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


I was in camp "we're not like the Weimar Republic" until yesterday, because before then we didn't have self proclaimed Nazis waving swastikas killing left of center people at rallies. Now we do.

Before now it's been more likely that a closeted nazi would be a cop using tear gas on people at BLM march and murdering black children in broad daylight. Which is horrific and disturbing and traces the thread across the election of Trump to yesterday. I understand the events of yesterday speak to the heart at the weave and weft of the fabric of our society, I am not claiming this event is somehow aberrant or new, it isn't. It's a predictable escalation.

This escalation is also evident by the response from the Conservative party, with centrist and right of center republicans denouncing this as a terrorist act while the president and far right silently remains complicit. Our country has been slowly going to war with itself for 5 decades and in my opinion yesterday will be seen as a tell of where shit got really "no fucking really" real.

~on preview~ I also recommend Berlin Stories as well.
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


So there's another rally planned tonight near the confederate statue. I find it hard to believe the city will allow this to happen.

Also did I read there will be a Nazi rally in Boston next weekend?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:58 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Some nonfiction books to read in the Trump Era:
• The Origins of Totalitarianism and Eichmann in Jerusalem, Hannah Arendt
• The Unwinding: An Inner History of the New America by George Packer
• American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America by Chris Hedges
• On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century by Timothy Snyder
• The Diary of Anne Frank by Anne Frank
• Freedom Is a Constant Struggle: Ferguson, Palestine, and the Foundations of a Movement by Angela Davis
• Nixonland: The Rise of a President and the Fracturing of America by Rick Perlstein
• All the President's Men by Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward
• White Trash: The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America by Nancy Isenberg
• Citizen: An American Lyric by Claudia Rankine
• This Fight Is Our Fight: The Battle to Save America's Middle Class by Elizabeth Warren
• Parable of the Talents by Octavia Butler
posted by Fizz at 1:58 PM on August 13, 2017 [74 favorites]


Keep in mind that gvf is Nazi signaling, more subtle that a swastika, but absolutely a gang sign of Nazi. Either that tag is fake, or the driver custom ordered it.

Can you elaborate on this? Because his mother's license plate is also GVF-11something.
posted by theodolite at 1:58 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I am thinking Weimar, too. Throw in Trump and the Republican Party sending jitters through various economic markets and some nukes for kicks.

When I first read Snowcrash, one of the things that stuck out to me was the atomization of the US into city states and burbclaves, including Aryan/Nazi. I thought that was a bit fantastical, now it is looking prescient.
posted by jadepearl at 2:00 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Surely there is an enterprising person in Charlottesville who has access to a sledgehammer or a jackhammer or something. What is this statue made out of, adamantium?
posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


To answer myself, it's made of bronze. So I guess you'd need more than a sledgehammer. Fair enough.
posted by Justinian at 2:03 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Anyone can rent a backhoe. They just need a credit card. Just sayin.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 2:04 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Though it's a very dense read, an excellent book right now is The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich . by William Shirer. The first few chapters are probably very relevant.
posted by waitangi at 2:06 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Thing is, smashing up the statue is not going to make them go away. They are using the statue and Confederate symbolism as an excuse for their particular brand of virulent racism, just as their grandfathers and great-grandfathers used Christian imagery in the 1920-1950s version of the KKK. It's not like if you take away the symbol, they will just nicely go back into their grottoes.
posted by basalganglia at 2:07 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


I'll add Masha Gessen's The Man Without a Face: The Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin to the reading list. Obviously about a different totalitarian state, but the parallels between Putin's rise and Trump's rise are FASCINATING (and terrifying of course), and I felt like it gave me greater insight into and context for what's happening right now. And of course it's interesting to think about which countries were on which side during WWII...
posted by Ragini at 2:08 PM on August 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


Thing is, smashing up the statue is not going to make them go away.

But it sure would be satisfying.
posted by Justinian at 2:09 PM on August 13, 2017 [23 favorites]


It isn't that it would be hard, or even the civil penalties. It's that you would be bringing a potentially-probably-violent shitstorm on yourself once you got doxxed for it. Which is how the terrorists like it.

Plus, once we're resorting to self-help, we're stepping pretty far down into the Glasl death-spiral.
posted by ctmf at 2:09 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Tearing down statues is symbolic. It makes a statement about what we will and will not support in the public sphere.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 2:10 PM on August 13, 2017 [35 favorites]


Thing is, smashing up the statue is not going to make them go away.

Making Nazis go away is not the primary goal of taking down the statues. The primary goal is to not make Black Southerners walk by them every day.
posted by Ragini at 2:11 PM on August 13, 2017 [78 favorites]


ctmf: I take your point but given that blood was quite literally running in the streets yesterday I would say that ship has probably sailed.
posted by Justinian at 2:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


(For example, witness the reverberation throughout our society of Bree Newsome taking a flag off a pole.)
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 2:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


Plus, once we're resorting to self-help, we're stepping pretty far down into the Glasl death-spiral.

I would take the fact that there's nazis cropping up everywhere to indicate that we're pretty far along already.
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Moreover, the statue of Robert E. Lee now resides in a place that was recently renamed to "Emancipation Park". Having that statue in a park named that offends _me_, and I'm fishbelly white.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 2:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy, yes, there is a rally in Boston next Saturday.
posted by ruetheday at 2:16 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


A backhoe? How about a flashmob with a bunch of chains. There's enough of us, we're stronger together.
posted by adept256 at 2:17 PM on August 13, 2017 [18 favorites]


I agree that the statue, and all other Confederate statues/imagery in this country, needs to come down. But I am worried that smashing it to bits (however satisfying that would be) will only fuel the deranged bastards who have already murdered a woman in my hometown, beat a group of students on the grounds of my University, and assaulted a man with metal poles in the garage where I used to park.
posted by basalganglia at 2:17 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


If hundreds of people pulled it down with chains, now THAT would send a message no single person with a backhoe could achieve. If simultaneously, several statues around the country had the same thing happen...
posted by ctmf at 2:19 PM on August 13, 2017 [30 favorites]


True enough.. It's also probably a lot harder to arrest the 400 people that pulled the statue over than the one person with a backhoe.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 2:21 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Does anyone know what happened to the Seattle event that was going to happen today?
posted by Yowser at 2:26 PM on August 13, 2017



Lots of great info in those YT comments about how the car Nazi was a secret Jew because his mother's name was Bloom


At least they've read Ulysses
posted by thelonius at 2:27 PM on August 13, 2017


Just got back from the counterprotest in Chicago. A bunch of people showed up. We marched up and down Michigan Ave once, then over to Wabash and up to end at the Trump Tower. Lots of good speakers, and tons of energy in the crowd. We basically never stopped chanting for the whole march. Lots of white folks, women, kids. No nazis in sight.
posted by Wulfhere at 2:28 PM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


Does anyone know what happened to the Seattle event that was going to happen today?

It's happening. There's a group of white supremacist Trump supporters in a gated off area and a LOT of protesters in the streets that were marching toward that area but are being blocked from getting there by large numbers of police.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:28 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


are being blocked from getting there by large numbers of police.

I get that this is two different cities and one is partly in response to the other. Also, preventing violence is the right thing to do, period. But it is not a good look overall to protect Nazis from getting the shit beat out of them, while not doing anything when Nazis were doing the beating yesterday.

I prefer Seattle's approach.
posted by ctmf at 2:36 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


The Seattle cops just fired tear gas into the counter-protesters.
posted by Justinian at 2:39 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Why no info yet, on the cause of the helicopter crash?

Don't read anything into that. This sort of crash can be very difficult and time-consuming to investigate, for lots of reasons. I've known comparable cases to take many months for even a preliminary report.


Somebody's reading something into it. The chopper crew's being lauded as heroes but as far as I can tell there's no witness to any heroism on their part. Therefore, I don't appreciate their being equated in the media with the martyr Heather Heyer and I find the blackout on their radio chatter suspicious.
posted by Rash at 2:40 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Boston counterprotest info here. Black Lives Matter is heavily involved.

Also, call the mayor and tell him your thoughts on giving these very dangerous people a platform in what's supposed to be no place for hate.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 2:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


"I prefer Seattle's approach.
posted by ctmf at 2:36 PM on August 13 [+] [!]"

"The Seattle cops just fired tear gas into the counter-protesters.
posted by Justinian at 2:39 PM on August 13 [+] [!]"

2017
posted by ctmf at 2:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [47 favorites]


NeverTrumper and senior Republican strategist Rick Wilson:

@TheRickWilson
1/ Folks have sent me a couple of emails saying that exposing alt reichers and having them lose their jobs just isn't fair.
2/ and how would I feel if that happened to me?
3/ it already has. These assholes have gone after my kids, my business, my clients and me personally for two years.
4/ in my case, for the sin of opposing Trumpism. When TrumpBart when after my clients, many friends on the right said nothing
5/ so I hope your pardon me when the knife is in the other hand. The alt-right believes they can have a race war without consequence
6/ they have every right to their free speech, and the rest of society has every right to treat them like the lepers they are.
posted by chris24 at 2:48 PM on August 13, 2017 [129 favorites]


The cops are out in full riot gear in Seattle. This is less than optimal.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:49 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


I don't really know anything about twitter so I don't know how to link to a central news aggregator, but googling "seattle protest" brings you to several pages, including this fellow:

https://twitter.com/itsmikebivins

Who is getting footage.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:52 PM on August 13, 2017


Crosscut has a liveblog of protests in Seattle.

Freelance journalist Mike Bivins is live-tweeting from the march.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:52 PM on August 13, 2017


Rick Wilson kind of chummed the waters with his comments about "childless single men who masturbate to anime". He was trying to troll the trolls, or so it seemed.


Link

posted by theorique at 2:53 PM on August 13, 2017


Cops are attacking the crowds
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


It is the Virginia state legislature that refuses to let these statues be torn down (despite locals voting that the statues be removed). Here is a link to the VA General Assembly, including VA house and senate member lists:

Contact state legislators about these concerns and maybe they will act to remove the roadblocks so that Charlottesville (and my city, Alexandria) can tear down these statues -- and soon. That is my hope.

Virginia is a reasonably blue state nowadays, but the state legislature in particular is still very red -- and very pernicious.

FYI, because you might find it interesting: about ten minutes ago, I received a text from the VA attorney general's (Mark Herring's) office asking what issues are important to me. I said that right now, it was obviously the white supremacist terrorism in Charlottesville. The AG's office texted back with this: "Mark spoke out Saturday night against the hatred seen in Charlottesville: 'The violence, chaos, and apparent loss of life in Charlottesville is not the fault of "many sides." The racists, neo-Nazis, neo-Confederates and white supremacists who invaded a Virginia city are responsible.' See him speaking out here
posted by rue72 at 2:53 PM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


I went to bed planning to go to the march in Seattle, woke up realizing I'm probably not up for that right now physically... and now I'm both feeling bad for not sucking it up and going anyway and also thinking I'd probably have just been in the way. It's not a good feeling.

It's also not a good feeling to see the cops acting like this here.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:54 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


From Frowner's comment in the politics megathread about [non-punching] tactics to fight these white supremacists:
So I feel like alternate tactics need to be developed that will destroy the image-making power of the nazis.

My immediate thought is that you can fuck up a protest with a small number of people if you have a brass band and enough people to defend it if they link arms and stay tight (we have left wing brass here, which brought it to mind). So, for instance, you mess up image-making if people are marching around....followed by tuba. [emphasis mine]
I was watching the clips of Kessler being chased out--and there is someone playing something loud and brassy in the crowd! Also some cymbal- and drum-like sounds. And of course dozens of people shouting at Kessler.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 2:56 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


Seattle PD has major problems with racism and brutality, and a particularly awful police union that blocks any improvement on either front, so it probably should not be a surprise. Still shockingly vicious though.
posted by Artw at 2:57 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


Scaryblackdeath, I'm in Seattle and also sitting this one out because of an urgent plumbing situation. I feel you.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:59 PM on August 13, 2017


Cops are attacking the crowds

…and just as I was starting to type out a long rebuttal to the "at this point it's going to be better to let the state have a monopoly on violence" comment above. :/
posted by stagewhisper at 3:01 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


Not arguing Seattle PD's problems at all, 'cause they're for real. My only surprise is the PD and the city know they have a major trust gap with the community. They know how bad relations are here. And yet they chose to go with this strategy, anyway, in spite of...well, everything.

I'm only surprised they didn't decide on some completely different approach than this. Like maybe telling the fascists they couldn't have their rally today because (insert transparently bullshit reason I'd be fine with) or something.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:03 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


…and just as I was starting to type out a long rebuttal to the "at this point it's going to be better to let the state have a monopoly on violence" comment above. :/

Jinx, depressingly.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:03 PM on August 13, 2017


Seattle PD hates the city and everyone in it.
posted by Artw at 3:04 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


One thing that makes me happy: the counter-protest march in Seattle seems considerably bigger than I first thought it would be judging by stuff I'd seen online before it got moving. I'm really glad people turned out for this.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:06 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


…and just as I was starting to type out a long rebuttal to the "at this point it's going to be better to let the state have a monopoly on violence" comment above. :/

I'd be interested in reading that, because I still think that's true. But there's a huge difference between responding to violence and initiating it. Seattle's crossing to the wrong side, apparently.
posted by ctmf at 3:08 PM on August 13, 2017


University of Nevada Reno white supremacist Peter Cvjetanovic's classmates uh weren't surprised:

when the main dude in this photo is in most of your history classes and always spouts fascist and racist comments
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]




I'd be interested in reading that, because I still think that's true. But there's a huge difference between responding to violence and initiating it. Seattle's crossing to the wrong side, apparently.

I'm sure they'll have some excuse.

I'm sure I don't give a fuck what it is.
posted by Artw at 3:15 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]




I'm seeing some folks on Twitter saying the fascists left their Seattle rally even though the cops were keeping the groups separated. Hoping that's true.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:17 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


DSA's Statement on Nazi Violence in Charlottesville:
In the face of growing racist, anti-Semitic, white supremacist violence, comrades from across the left came together in an incredible display of left unity. They came from many different organizations but spoke with one voice, chanting “Black Lives Matter” and other pro-solidarity slogans. Undaunted, they held the line and showed the fascists that they shall not pass. The day ended with the streets of Charlottesville free of Nazi scum.

We call on the left to build a strong united front against this emboldened right wing. We need to be clear and recognize that white supremacist terrorism will not simply go away if it's ignored. This violent and dangerous movement should never be allowed to have a platform. It should always be fought against by the strength of our united front.

It is important to acknowledge the differing responses of the police to white supremacist marches and terrorism and their reactions to Black Lives Matter protests and marches. Black Lives Matter protests are always met with the worst police brutality and suppression while white supremacist marches are allowed to freely attack counter-protesters on many occasions.

In this way, we plainly see whose side the police are on. From the days of the creation of the modern day police in the 1800s, they were used as a violent force for the physical suppression of a resistant working class, of Black slaves, and indigenous people. Today, their role of social control and oppression remains largely the same.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:19 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]




Sounds like folks are heading home from Seattle now.
posted by Artw at 3:26 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Cville update: i just found out that there is another all-out protest by the fascists that was scheduled to start at 6pm at the rotunda tonight. A couple friends of mine who are on grounds told me that there are already tons of press and police personel.
posted by tedious at 3:28 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]




I can just imagine the panic all across the country this afternoon as men who haven't worn anything but polo shirts and kakhis for years try to figure out what to wear tomorrow to get that "I'm not a Nazi" look.

I predict a veritable fashion explosion in IT departments and middle management across the nation in the next few days.
posted by MrVisible at 3:29 PM on August 13, 2017 [32 favorites]


If you want to know what this looks like from the outside a Syrian friend of a friend who is currently living in France saw the the video from Charlottesville and sent her screaming like to the effect of "why are they allowed to fly the swastika why can people just form militias whit assault rifles what the fuck is wrong with your country this looks like a siege!"
posted by The Whelk at 3:32 PM on August 13, 2017 [55 favorites]


Cville update: i just found out that there is another all-out protest by the fascists that was scheduled to start at 6pm at the rotunda tonight. A couple friends of mine who are on grounds told me that there are already tons of press and police personel.

There was set to be a vigil at the rotunda, but it was cancelled (well, will be held only on Facebook Live) due to "a credible threat from white supremacists."
posted by zachlipton at 3:33 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


I predict a veritable fashion explosion in IT departments and middle management across the nation in the next few days.

I got this. I got a WHOLE LOT of vintage tie-dyes from the days I used to tape the Grateful Dead, and a foot long pony-tail.
posted by mikelieman at 3:33 PM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]




"Do not think that one has to be sad in order to be militant, even though the thing one is fighting is abominable." - Michel Foucault
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:38 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


One of the things that piss me off about this is that when you immigrate to the US, USCIS makes you swear and double swear that you aren't nazi sympathizer, so I was under the impression that nazism wasn't tolerated here?
posted by Tarumba at 3:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [20 favorites]


It wasn't until a white supremacist openly ran for President on a white supremacy policy campaign and was elected by white supremacists.
posted by tel3path at 3:48 PM on August 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


Yesterday, Richard Painter was talking about gorka and he made this aside: "Sebastian Gorka -- I don't even know how he got in this country --
posted by Room 641-A at 3:50 PM on August 13, 2017 [20 favorites]


"Sebastian Gorka -- I don't even know how he got in this country --"
On a work visa at Mar-a-Lago? Or from Trump's models agency...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:56 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


What We Know About James Alex Fields, Driver Charged in Charlottesville Killing [The New York Times]
In an interview with The Associated Press, Ms. Bloom said she knew her son was going to a rally, but that she tried to “stay out of his political views.” She said that she thought the rally “had something to do with Trump,” adding, “Trump’s not a supremacist.”
And this is why it's so important for elected officials and government offices to be firm and outspoken in their denouncement of this type of hatred and ideology.

How anyone living in America is able to think that Trump is not associated with the white nationalist and Nazi movement is astounding to me. The election was filled with news and information regarding their support for Trump.

But I guess this is what happens when you such a large portion of Trump's base get their news from Fox, Breitbart, etc. They aren't informed about his connections and his ties to these people and their support for his presidency.
posted by Fizz at 3:58 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


No, Seattle cops aren't perfect. They're people and doing their job. I really wish that they didn't need to use pepper spray and maybe flash-bangs to do it. But the cops would rather take the blame for being over-cautious than have more violence and the results of violence on either side. Even when one side is horrible and wrong.

The problem here is that the "Patriot Freedom Rally" speakers were denouncing the white supremicists and sounding almost rational, but the "Anti-Hate" were antagonizing the police whilst being deprived of confrontation with those nice peaceful Christians who were just speaking their minds according to God and The American Way.*

*No, I don't see them that way, but there are a lot of people who will.
posted by monopas at 4:03 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


wow, i love art (@pettyblackgirl on twitter)
posted by Joseph Gurl at 4:03 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]




Rose Berry:
Y'all have to stop using Trump as the reason why White nationalists are marching, assaulting, and murdering Black people. Seriously y'all, stop. Trump can't be your scapegoat. America been racists. Is still racist. America is who voted for Trump. Black people and POC been telling y'all that but you kept hiding behind "but slavery is over..." and "but civil rights..." and "but our president is Black..." and "but allyship..."

Y'all can watch a literal genocide happening to Black people in your daily newsfeed and go on living your sheltered lives...and it takes White nationalists with tiki torches for you to pay attention?! Where have you been?!

They didn't manifest out of thin air. They are the police officers, prosecutors and judges that kill, police, criminalize and institutionalize Black/Brown ppl.

They are the aggressive White frat boys who you let say nigga during rap songs.

They are the agitated White woman who screams with fury because the barista made her coffee wrong.

They are your next door neighbors and cousins and parents at Thanksgiving dinner.

They are your classmates and friends on your newsfeed that you unfollow so you don't have to deal with their ignorance.

They are the trolls on MY timeline that you so conveniently ignore while you post statuses about how DOWN you are for Black/Brown ppl.

This shit ain't nothing new. Wake the fuck up. Then do something about it.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 4:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [65 favorites]


You know what "HH" stands for?

It stands for "Heather Heyer".
posted by nnethercote at 4:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


‪WHO IS THIS MAN with the red beard?‬ (Shaun King)
posted by Joseph Gurl at 4:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


One of the things that piss me off about this is that when you immigrate to the US, USCIS makes you swear and double swear that you aren't nazi sympathizer, so I was under the impression that nazism wasn't tolerated here?

Yes when I applied for my green card I had to fill out that form in septupulet
posted by mbo at 4:15 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Yes when I applied for my green card I had to fill out that form in septupulet

I wondered if voting for the Greens once in Australia was disqualifying.
posted by Talez at 4:17 PM on August 13, 2017


I don't know, were you a communist, a war criminal, coming to the US for immoral purposes, overthrown a govt, had ever been charged with a crime (not convicted) .... All those were on there
posted by mbo at 4:21 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Trump Tower is having a rough go (it's literally been shut down due to protests)
posted by Yowser at 4:22 PM on August 13, 2017 [19 favorites]


Voting for the Greens mIght count as trying to overthrow a friendly govt
posted by mbo at 4:23 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


I can just imagine the panic all across the country this afternoon as men who haven't worn anything but polo shirts and kakhis for years try to figure out what to wear tomorrow to get that "I'm not a Nazi" look.

Yeah.

It turns out that they were consciously "dressing up" for the rally. The look they were going for was Chad Nationalism. With the hope - somehow unsurprising - to "make girls want to be our groupies".
posted by clawsoon at 4:29 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


One of the things that piss me off about this is that when you immigrate to the US, USCIS makes you swear and double swear that you aren't nazi sympathizer, so I was under the impression that nazism wasn't tolerated here?
When I filled out my citizenship application ~12 years ago, they only wanted to know if I had been a Nazi between 1939 and 1945. That was the only Nazi question; there were almost a dozen Communism-related ones.
posted by migurski at 4:32 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Twitter user @YesYoureRacist, who has been trying to ID the white supremacists at the tiki torch rally, has announced that one of the white supremacists has been fired by his employer Top Dog (Berkeley hot dog chain).

Is it naughty of me to find it really, really funny that the job that this particular douchenozzle had was working at a hot dog restaurant?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:34 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


...in Berkeley!
posted by Joseph Gurl at 4:36 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]




Revisiting October 2016 How Trump Took Hate Groups Mainstream
The full story of his connection with far-right extremists.
posted by adamvasco at 4:37 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


So my cousin and his wife were in Charlottesville with a clergy contingent, and his wife just wrote up their experience yesterday, mostly inside a church handing out snacks because they couldn't make it to the nonviolent confrontation training the night before. This atheist is so proud to know them.
posted by deludingmyself at 4:39 PM on August 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


No, Seattle cops aren't perfect. They're people and doing their job. I really wish that they didn't need to use pepper spray and maybe flash-bangs to do it.

Seattle police have a habit of standing by and watching Nazi protestors beat up counter-protestors, just like police yesterday in Charlottesville and in Portland a month ago. When the protestors are leftist or do anything besides calmly follow police instructions on where to corral themselves the police respond with force.

Artw is right the police in Seattle hate the people in Seattle. By and large they don't live here, they commute from neighbouring cities. They are mostly white transplants from other parts of the country. The SPD has a 20 year history of para-military response to protestors and they know what they are doing. I don't know where you are coming from trying to defend SPD. They are probably one of the most advanced police forces in the country in terms of handling large scale protests and they know exactly what they are doing, separating the larger crowd into manageable groups, isolating the "scary" groups that may cause property damage and forcing them away from the actual event they are protesting into roaming street conflict with groups of police. SPD in full riot gear is completely common sight at Westlake Center.

Although FWIW most of the conversations I've had today about the protest in Seattle are concerned about how this will effect traffic so at least you, like, have an opinion.
posted by kittensofthenight at 4:40 PM on August 13, 2017 [29 favorites]


Seattle's gonna Seattle.
posted by Artw at 4:42 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Trump Tower is having a rough go (it's literally been shut down due to protests)

Hopefully for the duration.
posted by Artw at 4:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


Twitter user @YesYoureRacist, who has been trying to ID the white supremacists at the tiki torch rally, has announced that one of the white supremacists has been fired by his employer Top Dog (Berkeley hot dog chain).

Is it naughty of me to find it really, really funny that the job that this particular douchenozzle had was working at a hot dog restaurant?


My joy over this has been tempered by finding out that the Top Dog website has a section that links to the Ludwig von Mises Institute, which has been categorized by the SPLC as a Neo-Confederate organization (according to the Wikipedia entry).
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 4:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


Is it naughty of me to find it really, really funny that the job that this particular douchenozzle had was working at a hot dog restaurant?

...in Berkeley!


Side note: Berkeley is a land of contrasts. Top Dog, which is a local institution, is run by an uber-libertarian who covers the inside of the restaurants with signs like DISCARD STATISM and TAXATION IS CONSCRIPTION, and has a a "proper gander page" on the website that republishes the Mises Institute blog.
posted by theodolite at 4:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


My joy over this has been tempered by finding out that the Top Dog website has a section that links to the Ludwig von Mises Institute, which has been categorized by the SPLC as a Neo-Confederate organization (according to the Wikipedia entry).

.....Somehow it makes it even funnier that they may sympathize with his cause and they STILL fired him.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


Also from that Vice article:
"We need to keep women on the sidelines. Not speaking, not leading, and with no official membership in anything."

Their mothers must be so proud. I mean that sarcastically, and with the disgusted realization that some of their mothers are.
posted by erisfree at 4:51 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Uh guys, I don't think this year's Thanksgiving is gonna be any easier/more fun than last year's. :(
posted by yoga at 4:51 PM on August 13, 2017 [25 favorites]


Jinx! I used to eat at the no-longer-extent Hearst Ave location all the time as a kid - mainly I remember the huge Road to Success poster I stared at endlessly while I munched franks.

FWIW, the Top Dog guy is more Ron Paul than Richard Spencer: I also remember a poster with [hammer and sickle] = [swastika] on it. I expect he wasn't too put out by firing a Nazi.
posted by theodolite at 4:52 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


> Keep in mind that gvf is Nazi signaling, more subtle that a swastika, but absolutely a gang sign of Nazi. Either that tag is fake, or the driver custom ordered it.

>> Can you elaborate on this? Because his mother's license plate is also GVF-11something.


The generic license plate format for Ohio is ABC 1234. According to the state, "System assigned plates are pre-manufactured with consecutive numbers only and are never personalized."

According to Wikipedia
, the current license plate design has been issued to motorists since 2013, and through July of this year had been issued in the range of FWA 1000 to HFD 9999.

I would guess that the driver and his mother both got plates at the same time; the Challenger may perhaps be owned by and registered to his mother. Just a weird coincidence that GVF has the meaning it does.
posted by compartment at 4:56 PM on August 13, 2017 [9 favorites]


Uh guys, I don't think this year's Thanksgiving is gonna be any easier/more fun than last year's. :(

I hope people are not diplomatic in the slightest.
posted by Artw at 4:57 PM on August 13, 2017 [37 favorites]


I mean fuck these assholes for a long list of reasons, but include on that list making this be the context in which I explain to my kid about Nazis. Fuck you for that too, you assholes.
posted by nickmark at 4:58 PM on August 13, 2017 [21 favorites]


GVF

Sorry, I missed it but am sure it has been covered but what does this mean? I am not being successful on Google.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:01 PM on August 13, 2017


A Terrible Llama, try Ctrl+F on this thread. Some people were commenting on it upthread.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 5:06 PM on August 13, 2017


Richmond (about an hour away from Charlottesville) is also trying to figure out what to do with our statues.

It looks like they won't be removed, and input from citizens has been really weak so far. I wonder if everyone is just spooked. The Mayor has recommended adding context to the statues. Not sure what that would look like.
posted by Tarumba at 5:09 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


@gadyepstein
Not many presidents could make threatening nuclear war the second worst thing he did in a week.
posted by chris24 at 5:09 PM on August 13, 2017 [98 favorites]


Top Dog is well known for the owner's right-libertarian outlook - well, you can't really miss the screeds and clippings all over the walls. So there are always some fellow cranks working there and I'm not exactly shocked that this guy would be among them. But I'm also not shocked that a libertarian business owner would not be down with an employee making him look bad in front of his clientele by going full Nazi in public. At-will this, asshole.
posted by atoxyl at 5:10 PM on August 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


Action item to fight white supremacy and those who give it safe haven: if you live in and/or make hotel bookings in: AZ (Lake Havasu), CA, CO, FL, HI, IL, Tokyo, MA, NJ (New Brunswick), NY, TN, TX (San Antonio), VT, VA, WA, WV or WY, especially if you have any connection to decision-making on event bookings for larger groups through work or other affiliations, please take a quick moment and look through this list of properties owned by Benchmark Hospitality. I've been to one for a university program function. We have considered using the same location (Cheyenne Mountain Resort) again for student retreats, but I just found out that they're hosting a conference for the anti-immigrant hate group Vdare next spring. (Links go to news article and SPLC profile, not Vdare itself, but I've confirmed the conference on the group's website.) I won't do business with those who invite hate groups to our state, and damned if I'll sit back and let anyone in the University of Colorado system do the same without saying something.

So I emailed CMR and Benchmark to tell them to cancel Vdare's reservation, and reminded them that hate groups are not a protected class under Colorado public accommodations law, so this decision is very much in their court. I asked them to finalize the cancelation by the end of the month and publicly reject Vdare and their values, or I'd be working with campus organizers to cancel any existing reservations and spread the word to not make any new ones.

Emails and phone numbers for the Benchmark public relations team can be found here on their website.
posted by deludingmyself at 5:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [47 favorites]


NYT: McAuliffe Counters Critics of Police Response to Charlottesville Violence
Asked about the brawling and why police did not do more to control it, Brian Moran, Virginia’s secretary of public safety, said in an interview on Sunday that “it was a volatile situation and it’s unfortunate people resorted to violence.’’ But, he said, “From our plan, to ensure the safety of our citizens and property, it went extremely well.’’

Governor McAuliffe also defended the police response, saying, “It’s easy to criticize, but I can tell you this, 80 percent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons.

“You saw the militia walking down the street, you would have thought they were an army,” he added. “I was just talking to the State Police upstairs; they had better equipment than our State Police had,” he said, referring to the militia members. “And yet not a shot was fired, zero property damage.”
This is the Governor of a state saying "yeah, we just handed the streets over to Nazi militias because they had more guns than we do." The Governor of a US state is saying this.
posted by zachlipton at 5:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [154 favorites]


The important part isn't that he gets fired, it's that he can't get rehired by anyone else now that he's revealed who he is. I know I wouldn't hire him and it's not even personal retaliation - he's demonstrated his values don't align with my organization's core values.

Make it so, Berkeley.
posted by ctmf at 5:15 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Also from that Vice article:
"We need to keep women on the sidelines. Not speaking, not leading, and with no official membership in anything."


Yep. In addition to the disgusting racism, white nationalism is also super predicated on sexism and strict gender roles, because of course, they need more white babies to keep "white culture" alive. If you go down the rabbit hole enough, white nationalist women sometimes complain that "all" WN men think they're good for is having more white babies, at which point one's brain breaks between the sort of tiny proto-feminist seed there and the idea that the women are asking for more respect and power in their disgusting racist circles.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:18 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


“And yet not a shot was fired, zero property damage.”

He's contradicting himself, though. There is no evidence that the police prevented escalation. For all we know, we were at the mercy of the nazis' self-restraint.

I mean, if McAuliffe admits the nazis were better armed than the police, doesn't that mean the police couldn't stop them if they decided to go all out?
posted by Tarumba at 5:19 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Top Dog is a late-night Berkeley institution - they've got a good selection of grilled sausages, not just regular dogs - and an excellent opportunity to experience the cognitive dissonance of eating at a restaurant whose owner professes not to believe in health inspectors.
posted by atoxyl at 5:21 PM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


“And yet not a shot was fired, zero property damage.”

In light of everything that happened, it's more than a little tone deaf to celebrate that nazi thugs might have beaten black men adjacent to the police station but at least they didn't break a window with their staves. Not to mention the nearly two dozen people run down with a car.

if McAuliffe admits the nazis were better armed than the police, doesn't that mean the police couldn't stop them if they decided to go all out?

It does. Which is problematic.
posted by Candleman at 5:24 PM on August 13, 2017 [30 favorites]


This is the Governor of a state saying "yeah, we just handed the streets over to Nazi militias because they had more guns than we do." The Governor of a US state is saying this.

A governor of a state whose laws permit open carry of both handguns and long guns. Whose laws also prohibit local preemption of state laws on guns. Whose state and local executives therefore legally have their hands tied in a situation like this, where "peaceful" armed demonstrators rally. And god knows how the authorities can tell the difference between a group of armed protestors who, in the event, did in fact refrain from firing their weapons, and a group of armed protestors fully prepared to or determined to open fire.
posted by Creosote at 5:26 PM on August 13, 2017 [28 favorites]


I must be dense. I don't get the top dog joke. (Not the political part, the working there part.)
posted by Room 641-A at 5:27 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


"From our plan, to ensure the safety of our citizens and property, it went extremely well."

Disagree. From your own metric, ensure the safety of our citizens - fail.
posted by ctmf at 5:27 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


McAuliffe sure milkshake ducked that one in a hurry.
posted by Yowser at 5:28 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


if McAuliffe admits the nazis were better armed than the police, doesn't that mean the police couldn't stop them if they decided to go all out?

That's why the National Guard was ready to be called in (which it was). The police were pretty much a symbolic presence once their firepower was outmatched. I guess it was to prevent alarm among the residents at the military showing up right away instead of the cops? Or maybe it would just be embarrassing to have the Guard standing there behind sandbagged fortifications before the nazis showed up.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:28 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Yeah this is what the second amendment has meant to me for quite a while now.
posted by traveler_ at 5:31 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Well there were those cars that got ran into when when the guy attempted vehicular mass-murder and those shirts that got bloodied and cut open by paramedics, or do those not count as property because they are covered by a different type of insurance?
posted by ckape at 5:34 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


Or maybe it would just be embarrassing to have the Guard standing there behind sandbagged fortifications before the nazis showed up.

I would suggest instead this is the appropriate response to Nazis.
posted by mikelieman at 5:35 PM on August 13, 2017 [9 favorites]


By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with you.
- Mike Godwin
posted by octothorpe at 5:38 PM on August 13, 2017 [81 favorites]


So far it's all fun and games for a lot of those weekend-warrior militia types. I mean, they're serious about protecting their home and family and whatnot, but the ones I know sure would shut the fuck up the first time one of them got shot at a protest.

Or TBH, they wouldn't STFU, but you wouldn't see them out there playing dress-up any more. They'd just talk big on the internet.

I'm sure some percent of them are true believers, but so far there are no consequences so the numbers are inflated.
posted by ctmf at 5:39 PM on August 13, 2017


What I experienced up close and personally growing up as a punk kid in Dallas in the 1980's was these dangerous fucks going on "pogroms" where they targeted white people who were in their minds "race traitors". Scary shit. A bunch of skinheads I tangentially and not-so-tangentially knew through the punk scene went to prison for these violent rampages that went on for a couple of years.

For a while i was surrounded by Oi, ARA (anti-racist Action)and Nazi skinheads and the confederate nazi guys spent a lot of effort trying to convert me into the aryan nation/white nationalist movement and uhh yeah it didn't take much for me to quickly isolate away from that shit, but it was EVERYWHERE in the punk scene back then.

The Nazis and militant white nationalist groups as I experienced them, range from militant white racists who mostly hate brown and black people, will mock and bully LGBT folks and also spout off never ending conspiracy theories about Jewish people running the world, over to raw aryan nation white supremacists who first and foremost virulently hate Jewish people And Eastern Europeans, followed by LGBT folks, while harboring a clinically cold viewpoint towards brown and black people as pretty much subhuman. That whole band of people is what I think we politely called "deplorables" during the election. The white nationalists in my view are more likely to be our racist uncles, while those aryan nation folks....those people are fucking evil to the bone. I can't really tell them all apart, but I think it's important to know and understand that there is a strain of white nationalism in the US that is focused on eradicating Jewish people; and that the problem space we are looking at encompasses more than a white pride/black lives matter political split, but also includes massive amounts of anti-semitism and anti-LGBT hatred as well. I feel we would be remiss in not explicitly acknowledging and keeping that in our thoughts on how to speak to and address this.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:39 PM on August 13, 2017 [38 favorites]



There is a picture which I think has been posted already and is all over social media of a group of these Nazis beating a black man.

One has been identified. People found other pictures of him and apparently several of his classmates identified him. He is highschool. His identity has been reported to the police.

The netz are working at identifying as many as possible from that photo.
posted by Jalliah at 5:40 PM on August 13, 2017 [19 favorites]


Apparently these fucknuggets have a White Lives Matter rally planned at Texas A&M on September 11. But in good news, many Aggies are planning a counter protest. There's a vigil tonight for Charlottesville that I wasn't able to go to in Fort Worth. Friends tell me at least 200 ppl there
posted by emjaybee at 5:42 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


GVF

Sorry, I missed it but am sure it has been covered but what does this mean? I am not being successful on Google.


msalt posted this explanation, way upthread, but I've never heard it before - pretty obscure.
posted by Rash at 5:43 PM on August 13, 2017


I was at the march in Seattle. The cops were indeed shitty, but it looked like there were only a few minor injuries because nobody was crazy enough to try to fight them. After the march I went on my own to where the pro-Trump rally was being held. At first I wasn't even sure I was at the right place because most of the people I saw there were obviously protesters, and most of the rest were cops. The right-wingers left shortly after I arrived, and it was easier to tell who was who as they were being escorted away by the police. There seemed the only be a few dozen of them. They were all white an mostly male. One had a "Kekistan" flag on his helmet, but other than that I didn't see any overt displays of Nazi symbols. They didn't seem to be the kind of hard-core Nazis that showed up in Charlottesville.
posted by shponglespore at 5:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


80 percent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons

While there wasn't exactly a shortage of militia types with long guns, the photos and videos I've seen make them out to be a distinct minority -- more like 8% I'd say. The vast majority of RW actors seem to have been armed with staves/flagpoles, shields and things of that like. Frankly, I just spent a couple of minutes LOOKING through Google Images for any photographs of [fire-]armed militia members -- I know that I had seen some -- and wasn't able to find any.

So, yeah, out-of-touch CYA leaders gonna out-of-touch CYA leader.

I think they clearly did have "a plan", involving day-glo-vest policing, but it was quickly overwhelmed by reality and then they went to part B of their plan, riot-gear policing, but they were still vastly overwhelmed -- maybe just protecting the park and some other key locations -- such that the protesters were marching HERE and the ralliers were marching THERE and thought that was at least nominal. Plenty of evidence shows that this failed to prevent or even much limit non-concentrated spontaneous violence including beatings and homicide by motor vehicle.

Saying their hands were tied by an overwhelming number of guns is a cop-out. There's virtually nothing to support it.

Sorry, I missed it but am sure it has been covered but what does this mean?

It means that Scooby-squadders are tying themselves in knots trying to read meaning into the most minor of details. It's a red herring.
posted by dhartung at 5:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Ok, so this Peter Cvjetanovic dickhead.

Does he not realize that Slavs are considered among the untermenschen by nazis, same as Jews and Roma?

It's almost poetically idiotic.
posted by notsnot at 5:49 PM on August 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


So, yeah, out-of-touch CYA leaders gonna out-of-touch CYA leader.

So where I work, it's accepted that some things are not always going to go 100% right. People are going to make mistakes, bad decisions will be made. The important thing is to learn from the mistakes. To identify trends before they become issues and react to small issues before they become big ones. To take effective corrective actions without being told.

The worst criticism one can get around here is "not sufficiently self-critical". If your ability to even recognize when you even have a problem sucks, there is no hope you can fix it. Worse, you probably have thousands of other problems not being addressed. When you get called not self-critical, that means you are about to get lots of "help" from external oversight organizations.

The Secretary of Public Safety saying "it went extremely well" is breathtakingly "not sufficiently self-critical".
posted by ctmf at 5:55 PM on August 13, 2017 [32 favorites]


notsnot: Ok, so this Peter Cvjetanovic dickhead. Does he not realize that Slavs are considered among the untermenschen by nazis, same as Jews and Roma?

I was going to make that comment, but then I looked it up. He's Croat, and Hitler liked Croats - apparently he thought they were Germanic people who just happened to speak a Slavic language.

But "Hitler liked us" is still an idiotic way choose a political stance.
posted by clawsoon at 5:55 PM on August 13, 2017 [19 favorites]


I had no idea a woman was practically the de facto leader of the KKK in the '20s.

The Truth About Women and White Supremacy
When it comes to identifying the perpetrators of racial hatred in this country, it is tempting to comfort ourselves with gender tropes. But women have always played a determining role in white-supremacist movements.

While the march in Charlottesville occurred in reaction to the proposed removal of a statue of a Confederate general, women were responsible for the erection of many of these Confederate statues across the country at the turn of the 20th century. In the 1920s, women composed the most influential arm of the KKK. And lest we forget the election that emboldened these modern white supremacists: More than half of white women voted for Trump. To overlook the comprehensive picture of who makes up the extreme right is to seriously underestimate its reach.

When we think of the Klan — one of this country’s most notorious and instantly recognizable hate groups — we imagine male faces under the pointed white hoods. But a historical examination of that organization’s most effective period tells a different story. The 1920s were a boom time for the Klan. Membership was roughly 4 million — a number that dwarfs the fringe organization that it is today — and carried no stigma.

While William Joseph Simmons was the founder of that era’s Klan, a woman was the mouthpiece and arguably its most influential member. According to historian Kathleen Blee’s book Women of the Klan, Elizabeth Tyler was “the first major female leader” of the 1920s Klan. In the midst of financial turmoil, the Klan hired Tyler to publicize and recruit new members. One of her most important contributions was galvanizing the KKK’s base by expanding the list of targeted Klan enemies beyond Black people: Catholics, Jews, immigrants, and communists. Under her leadership, the Klan underwent “a dramatic reversal of fortune.” An estimated 85,000 new members joined. At one point, insurgent Klansmen argued that she was the actual head of the Klan and that Simmons was just a figurehead. A congressional investigation agreed.
posted by chris24 at 5:55 PM on August 13, 2017 [21 favorites]


“And yet not a shot was fired, zero property damage.”

I don't understand this. A life was lost!
posted by rue72 at 5:56 PM on August 13, 2017 [50 favorites]


City officials in Cambridge, MA are organizing a Cambridge stands with Charlottesville rally for tomorrow at 5:30 p.m. at City Hall.
posted by adamg at 5:57 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


I must be dense. I don't get the top dog joke. (Not the political part, the working there part.)

I admit it is a tiny bit snobbish of me, but I'm just struck by the dissonance of someone claiming to be a big he-man superior-to-everyone type of dude...and his job is selling hot dogs. There's something very Ignatius Reilly about it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:03 PM on August 13, 2017 [19 favorites]


I'm just struck by the dissonance of someone claiming to be a big he-man superior-to-everyone type of dude...and his job is selling hot dogs.

He no doubt believes that the only reason he's not CEO of a billion-dollar tech startup is because of affirmative action.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:04 PM on August 13, 2017 [21 favorites]


A wonderful Twitter thread: Imagine if these people ever faced any oppression

Looks like some of them will be doing so now.
posted by Samizdata at 6:10 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Does [Peter Cvjetanovic] not realize that Slavs are considered among the untermenschen by nazis, same as Jews and Roma?

Well, does Jared not realise that his father-in-law is emboldening literal Nazis, like the ones who killed so many of his relatives? His grandmother Rae Kushner dug her way out of a ghetto and joined the Bielski partisans. Look at her effete sycophant of a grandson; she would have been so ashamed of him.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:11 PM on August 13, 2017 [24 favorites]


Looks like some of them will be doing so now.

Being rejected and ostracized as a result of your own abhorrent actions is not oppression. Oppression is by definition unjust ill treatment.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [35 favorites]


Man, I've committed myself not to calling out family members on my cousins' spouses social media (because "welcome to the family! now we're gonna fight on your Facebook wall!" is... not a good scene), but my Trump-loving aunt just replied to my cousin's wife's post about their experience in Cville with "glad you are home and safe! hope you can keep a greater distance from hate groups in the future," and I clearly need to shut down social media because WTF lady, maybe we can have fewer Nazis marching through cities have you thought about that no you haven't you think you're being clever not explicitly saying you think BLM is a hate group but we all see you, go fuck yourself.
posted by deludingmyself at 6:17 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


Because this is where we are with 2017.... Tiki torch-maker decries use by white supremacists.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:20 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Just got back from the Seattle march. Wasn't able to get past the cops into Westlake. Every time we took another corner or alley they surrounded us. Even declared that we were under arrest at one point, through I have no idea why, we were even on the sidewalk. Ears are ringing from flashbangs but I got lucky and didn't catch any spray. The most minuscule use of force and the nice mom contingent declared retreat. Watched a cop van drive through a small crowd, people had to run out of the way and barely made it. Given the context I can only conclude that the driver cop is an actual nazi. The act of marching part way, singing a bit, then turning around and going home is American liberalism in a nutshell. Express one's self within the scripted confines, defer to authority and avoid all real challenge or danger. As if ending white supremecism would ever be easy or safe. It was nice that people cared enough to show. I look forward to seeing all of them back in the streets the next time SPD murders another unarmed POC. I'll be over here, holding my breath.

It's baffling how little people understand their own power. I hope they rediscover it before it's too late. The clock is ticking and people are dying.
posted by nwwn at 6:23 PM on August 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


The most minuscule use of force and the nice mom contingent declared retreat. Watched a cop van drive through a small crowd, people had to run out of the way and barely made it.

These two sentences seem to directly contradict each other, and one of them sets off a bunch of misogyny alarms.

You seem bitter that people weren't hurt today throwing themselves into danger, as though that were the only measure of devotion. It's not. It's how you escalate violent conflict.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:37 PM on August 13, 2017 [75 favorites]



It must be 2017.

Mike Godwin‏
@sfmnemonic

By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with you.

For those that don't know he coined Godwin's Law.
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1."—‌that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or his deeds.
posted by Jalliah at 6:39 PM on August 13, 2017 [31 favorites]


nwwn: I'm thrilled you were out there making your voice heard and that you stayed and are safe, and I hope there is documentation of the police van, not that it will do a damn bit of good, but the holier-than-thou stuff over people who went home in the face of force from the police is infuriating. Not everyone is up for battling the Seattle Police Department in the streets on a Sunday, for all sorts of reasons. You yourself said the police nearly ran people over. Nobody is a coward if they're not in a position to put themselves at risk like that.
posted by zachlipton at 6:41 PM on August 13, 2017 [57 favorites]


making this be the context in which I explain to my kid about Nazis.

I'm sympathetic to your feelings here but one of the contexts that needs to be taught to kids is that Nazism can happen anywhere. Even here. Especially here.
posted by Candleman at 6:58 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


Meanwhile, I'm watching some of the clips from Mike Bivins' livetweet of the Seattle protest, and I am legit tearing up. (In a good way.)
posted by XtinaS at 6:58 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


contemptible little men

Damn, that would've been a great Hillary line. 2017, where Tom Cotton one-ups "basket of deplorables"!

Also, it makes me think Cotton might be sincere in a way that the other Republicans' statements didn't, because he took the extra step of emasculating them and you can't dogwhistle your way around that one with these guys.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:07 PM on August 13, 2017 [24 favorites]


Chad Nationalism

Nationalist militias across the Republic of Chad are rushing to issue statements disavowing these douchebags' racist ideology and fashion choices.
posted by mubba at 7:10 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


Express one's self within the scripted confines, defer to authority and avoid all real challenge or danger. As if ending white supremecism would ever be easy or safe. It was nice that people cared enough to show. I look forward to seeing all of them back in the streets the next time SPD murders another unarmed POC. I'll be over here, holding my breath.

I dunno. At this point, I have some street-fighting years, some "I'm going to oil out as soon as the arrests start to go down" years and some "I promised my partner I would not jeopardize my job and our ability to pay the bills by getting arrested on the two- or three- day holds they use now" years under my belt, and if I've taken any conclusion from all that, it's that we are unlikely to win broad victories by street actions, no matter how militant. It's not that street actions aren't useful in various ways, it's that they are not sufficient, and they do not increase in effectiveness by the mere fact of more arrests and beatings.

I think that militant public actions aren't going to be mass-militant enough without previous organizing. (Also, let's not rip on moms, here - if I had to get home to my kids, I would be extra unwilling to be there for the beat-down, and in any case, Americans all hate mothers for misogynist reasons.) Basically, I think people have to be prepared to be in the street in enough numbers and for a long enough time to shut things down, and that takes more than just a call on facebook and people who know each other from the punk scene - the DSA, the IWW, some unions, etc, do some good work on this front, but they aren't big enough or deep enough yet.

If people are supposed to go out on the street and fight the cops, several things need to be true:

1. A goal where we say "this was a win, let's go home" - I've seen so many marches go on and on as people have to leave, and the cops wait around until it's, like, forty people and then beat them up. People go in without a plan except "let's make noise" and that is a really bad idea.

2. Preparation and people accurately assessing risk. If I go to a march on the understanding that we're going to march a couple of miles, protest at city hall and call it a night, and then all of the sudden we're shutting down the highway and there's fifty million cops and I know that they're using three day holds, hell yeah I'm going to leave. I didn't show up prepared for a 50% risk of arrest. I need a lot of advance notice for that.

3. Solidarity and organizing. A lot of my marchin' friends have split town, or else family or health stuff have meant that they don't march much. I'm out there by myself a lot, and that makes me way less willing to do risky stuff. People need deeper political ties before they're going to be ready to do hard core stuff.

4. Getting ready to do hard core stuff. I've never heard of a serious militant movement that didn't have actual trainings for doing hard core stuff. One thing I've seen in the past years that I think is actively bad is the way that Facebook organizing has meant that a lot of radical organizers expect that random people are going to be ready for tear gas and arrest situations. Like, the last few big marches I've been on, I've ended up talking to someone who is totally freaking out because they are not ready and don't even know what would happen if they got arrested.

Speaking of moms, one of the people I met on a Ferguson solidarity march a few years ago was a young mother from waaaaaaaayyyyy out of the city who had driven in with her kid and was marching with the baby in a stroller, on the highway in the middle of winter, knowing nobody. She'd felt so moved that she came on in - she was from some kind of punk-and-tattoos scene, so she had some background, but she wasn't militant by any means. And she didn't want to get arrested with her baby, and was kind of freaked out, but she'd been pushing her limits, doing things that were kind of scary and new for her.

I mean, one problem with the whole "loosely planned reactive march" thing is that it does end up with "we're marching around, should we fight the cops, people are leaving, fuck them". It's a super bad dynamic, and it's one reason I really strongly support more planning and goals, so that people aren't left out there with no support.
posted by Frowner at 7:10 PM on August 13, 2017 [163 favorites]


Chad Nationalism? How about Hanging Chad Nationalism? It seemed to get the upper hand in 2000...
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Can an employer fire a publicly avowed white supremacist? David Yamada, a Suffolk University Law School professor who focuses on workplace issues, surveys the legal issues.
posted by adamg at 7:18 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


L O fucking L at Cotton's statement, honestly. That a Senator from Arkansas, one of the states of the Confederacy, with ongoing issues around racial segregation, a state that had "sundown towns" as recently as 2002 (if the Encyclopedia of Arkansas is accurate, anyway)...the "history of ethnic supremacism still stalks the land" in the good old U S of A. The racist assholes marching in Charlottesville aren't some sort of aberration.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:20 PM on August 13, 2017 [9 favorites]


"Our country has changed."--Chief Justice Roberts in Shelby County v. Holder striking down large portions of the Voting Rights Act. (pic)
posted by triggerfinger at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2017 [54 favorites]


Sorry, I should have been more clear, I'm quite scattered at the moment. The van incedent happened after the retreat was halfway complete, at the tail end of the crowd (the people furthest from the 'leaders').

And you're right, I apologize for the gendered critisism. My personal archetype for this kind of thing is a family member, and I turn to that when I'm not thinking clearly.

You're also right that my response to these events is self-contradictory. The women's march left me with the same overwhelming blend of potential and despair. My inner voices, the romantic and the cynic, often speak in opposition of each other, which definitly makes me into an ass at times.
posted by nwwn at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2017 [21 favorites]






Springfield, MA cop wishes people would leave him alone and stop asking him about his Facebook comment applauding the death in Charlottesville.
posted by adamg at 7:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


Between Sessions and Cotton - something's going on. This is in some talking points somewhere. I'm not sure what that means, has the GOP made a decision to start visibly distancing the party from the Nazis instead of the conspicuous not-support-but-not-criticism they've been doing?
posted by ctmf at 7:51 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


@michaelianblack
Metaphorically speaking, yesterday the President stood in the middle of 5th Ave and shot somebody. Her name was Heather Heyer.
posted by chris24 at 7:55 PM on August 13, 2017 [81 favorites]


Between Sessions and Cotton - something's going on. This is in some talking points somewhere. I'm not sure what that means, has the GOP made a decision to start visibly distancing the party from the Nazis instead of the conspicuous not-support-but-not-criticism they've been doing?

I can't tell if it's that, or if it's kind of a "smooth things over until we disenfranchise all the minorities" thing. Hoping for the former, expecting the latter.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:55 PM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


I read a book book recently. It's a scholarly book published by a very small academic press. It's about one of my Great Greats. I'm a white dude. I am excluded from the Mayflower Society due to madness on both sides. I am also the scion of an immigrant, who was run out on a rail from San Antonio for publishing a German-Language abolitionist newspaper. He then went on to create Kindergarten, and you will note the loan-words. He's what the book was about.

I mean, really, the dude just loved to pick a fight everywhere he went, and he had to move a lot, as he didn't win as many of them as he would like, from Germany to Texas to New Jersey. He would always fight on the side of the angels, no matter how hard he would be made to suffer for it.

I will be at Boston when they come. An old dude with a busted-up knee. And POC blood relatives. I feel my lineage seething through my blood. America is coming at you, Nazi scum. Prepare all you like, it will do you no good.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:04 PM on August 13, 2017 [35 favorites]


Metaphorically speaking, yesterday the President stood in the middle of 5th Ave and shot somebody. Her name was Heather Heyer.

My favorite part is he follows up with saying he's getting a lot of heat for that tweet and what he should have said is.... and then he just repeats the tweet verbatim.
posted by Justinian at 8:10 PM on August 13, 2017 [35 favorites]


I feel my lineage seething through my blood. America is coming at you, Nazi scum. Prepare all you like, it will do you no good.

So say we all.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 8:16 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


The Times was a mixed bag, with some stories on the events in Charlottesville being quite equivocal, but also this story, Trump Is Criticized for Not Calling Out White Supremacists, which didn't pull its punches. It starts:
President Trump is rarely reluctant to express his opinion, but he is often seized by caution when addressing the violence and vitriol of white nationalists, neo-Nazis and alt-right activists, some of whom are his supporters.
And it then goes on to catalog some of Trump's support for racism, from his 1989 full-age ad calling for the death penalty of the Central Park Five to retweeting white supremacists to his failure to repudiate David Duke to the "sheriff's star" incident to birtherism.
posted by zachlipton at 8:22 PM on August 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


Governor McAuliffe also defended the police response, saying, “It’s easy to criticize, but I can tell you this, 80 percent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons.

Yeah, NYT deleted that later.
posted by meehawl at 8:26 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


GoDaddy is dumping The Daily Stormer after Amy Suskind called out a vile piece they published about Heather Heyer. They have 24 hours to find another hosting service. (Twitter -- includes nasty headline about Heyer)
posted by maudlin at 8:52 PM on August 13, 2017 [49 favorites]


I mean, "oops, we've been hosting one of the largest neo-Nazi sites on the internet, but we'll stop in 24 hours" is really the absolute minimum bar here.
posted by zachlipton at 8:56 PM on August 13, 2017 [89 favorites]


Hard as it may be to believe, the article is even more vile than the headline.
posted by chris24 at 8:56 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


We ARE talking about GoDaddy here.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:57 PM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


Damn, even Fox is jumping on the fact that the Daily Stormer praised Trump's response.

@JuddLegum: (ThinkProgress)
Wow, brutal graphic from Fox News [IMAGE]
posted by chris24 at 9:02 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


I can't be the only one that thinks this Mike Bivins guy that keeps getting linked is suuuuuper sketchy?
posted by Yowser at 9:10 PM on August 13, 2017


I'm not on Twitter, but if someone wants to tweet GoDaddy with the following, I'd be much obliged:
Good decision. According to WHOIS lookup, they've been your client since at least March 2014. At your typical rates, you've earned at least $900 from hosting their hate speech and incitements to violence. Will you donate all the money they've paid you to the Southern Poverty Law Center, to prove you're not interested in profiteering off hate crimes?
posted by biogeo at 9:16 PM on August 13, 2017 [37 favorites]


I'd love to but I don't share user names across platforms (not that it would be hard to figure out who I am, I just don't want it to be *that* easy)
posted by Yowser at 9:20 PM on August 13, 2017


You go to the Daily Stormer article on Heyer and you get a phishing warning from Cloudflare. So someone is doing the Lord's work today.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:23 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Mike Bivins is awesome.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 9:35 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


So apparently Storm Front are using the CloudFlare CDS, as of right now. Seems like they might be a good next target for pressuring into booting these neo-Nazi/Confederate deplorables.

While CloudFlare can't take down the content, we can pressure them into stopping the widespread distribution of hate-based content as a source of revenue. Seems like a public name-n-shame on Twitter/Facebook + contact through their abuse form + phone calls tomorrow could be a way to go.

Points to hit:
  • Why is CloudFlare profiting off the widespread distribution of hate speech by distributing Storm Front's Content?
  • Why is CloudFlare okay with distributing this content.
  • CloudFlare must immediately cease doing business with Storm Front
  • Failure to do so means you will associate CF with neo-Nazism and warn everyone you know considering CDS to avoid CF.
    posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:36 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


    @ABC: NEW: White House clarifies Pres. Trump’s statement after Charlottesville: “He condemns all forms of violence, bigotry and hatred"

    @BillKristol:
    WH staff told Trump they had to put out a statement, but couldn't prevail on him to say it himself, in the first person. A revealing moment.

    ---

    Everybody fucking knows it's a huge, damaging mistake, but the racist fuck won't do the simplest thing to solve it.
    posted by chris24 at 9:37 PM on August 13, 2017 [50 favorites]


    DO NOT ENGAGE CLOUDFARE WITH ANY IDENTIFYING INFORMATION. YOU WILL BE DOXXED BY THEM.
    posted by Yowser at 9:41 PM on August 13, 2017 [23 favorites]


    Well, does Jared not realise that his father-in-law is emboldening literal Nazis, like the ones who killed so many of his relatives?

    Jared does not give a fuck about anything but money. He's entirely too busy shuttling Rosfnet cash between Trump-Russia accounts and the dark network of thousands of shadow LLCs to the failing Kushner-Russia real estate deals.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 9:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Daniel (Dan) Borden - we found you. Your classmates turned you in. . . .
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:42 PM on August 13


    One of the comments in that thread makes an interesting tactical observation regarding Facebook commenting:
    If you've noticed the influx of negative right wing comments at the top of posts in your news feed, Facebook changed its algorithm so the posts with the most comments instead of the most likes sit at the top. This new Facebook policy is feeding the trolls.

    There are a couple things we can do to help.

    1. People need to quit responding to the trolls, then they won't get the top comment spot in a thread. They won't get the attention and responses they are craving.

    2. DO respond in the comments section of posts you agree with, even if it is just one word. As long as the pertinent posts are receiving more comments than the troll posts, then the troll posts will be relegated to the bottom, where they belong. So, don't feed the trolls.
    posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 9:48 PM on August 13, 2017 [27 favorites]


    What the hell is happening in Ohio? All the supremacists they are identifying from the pictures seem to be from OH.
    posted by Justinian at 10:08 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Oops, that one was from Nevada. Sorry, Ohio, you're only responsible for some of the white supremacists.
    posted by Justinian at 10:09 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


    (Lest CloudFlare be tarred exclusively as a bad actor, it... does some not terrible stuff too.)

    Which also destroys their pretense of neutrality. They care about “politically and artistically important organizations” and make sure “[i]n order to participate in the Project, a website must meet the following criteria”. They just want to care on their own terms. But their terms include ducking behind the fig leaf of no “affirmative obligation” when organized racists are the problem. To hell with that.

    If that sounds overblown and strident, well, they rat people out to Nazis. I can't imagine something lower down in the stupid/evil corner. If their policies and procedures produce that result, those policies are wrong.
    posted by traveler_ at 10:26 PM on August 13, 2017 [26 favorites]


    What the hell is happening in Ohio?

    It's not southern, but a lot of its people are. Romanticized nationalism among diasporas, rising to the point of terrorism (and even all-out war), is a thing.
    posted by Sys Rq at 10:38 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Between Sessions and Cotton - something's going on. This is in some talking points somewhere. I'm not sure what that means, has the GOP made a decision to start visibly distancing the party from the Nazis instead of the conspicuous not-support-but-not-criticism they've been doing?

    Consider, though, that they're on August recess, and a lot of these GOP hacks are still operating on old conventional wisdom as if any of that holds anymore. They're probably hoping things will cool down for a couple of weeks if nothing else breaks (HAH). Then they can come back when the heat has died off and "reset" in September to get stuff done.

    Except, of course, there's no chance of things staying calm for even that long.

    I'll be happy if I'm wrong. Thrilled even. But right now I think Congress isn't in session and so all the Republican Congresscritters figure it's better to mollify their constituents and piss Trump off from afar than try to keep him happy when he's on vacation and risk the wrath of whatever locals they might run into in the next couple weeks.
    posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:42 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


    A couple of times I've said really shitty things and been called on it. Once I repeated a homophobic joke from Attack of the Killer. Tomatoes in front of a gay friend. I remember the great self-loathing I felt when I realized I had just metaphorically shit the bed.

    And so it's so weird, thinking about the pressure Trump must be under to clearly and unequivocally denounce Neo-Nazis and how he clearly resisted it. If somebody went to another person and said, 'you should do this so that people don't think you're racist,' how do you argue against that? How are you not well I'll hop to it then.

    I mean, I know obviously Trump doesn't work this way, but it's just so odd to me that another human doesn't have this reflex.

    I mean apparently Ted Cruz has this fucking reflex, and we all know his human status is in question.
    posted by angrycat at 10:51 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Shaun King:
    In the background of the photo of white supremacists brutally and illegally assaulting 20 year old Deandre Harris, you will notice a man overseeing it all.
    His name is Michael Tubbs. He spent YEARS in prison for plotting to bomb Black & Jewish prisons. He was a member of the KKK. He was caught stealing guns from the military for the KKK while he was a serviceman.
    He is a widely known white supremacist and a truly dangerous man. In Charlottesville, he was seen overseeing and ordering much of the violence. He broke multiple laws in doing so and should be arrested immediately.
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 11:04 PM on August 13, 2017 [74 favorites]


    'you should do this so that people don't think you're racist,' how do you argue against that? How are you not well I'll hop to it then.

    Obviously, the answer is, "But I am a racist." Trump can't denounce those he feels are loyal to him.

    Even if they're fucking Nazis.
    posted by mikelieman at 11:08 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


    In the background of the photo of white supremacists brutally and illegally assaulting 20 year old Deandre Harris [...]

    So glad I previewed, Other Joe, because I was just about to post that. There's no finer way to do the Lord's work than by helping to weed his garden.
    posted by Joe in Australia at 11:09 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


    HEY YOU'RE OTHER JOE I'M JUST JOE I THOUGHT WE'D SETTLED THIS

    Sorry, what I meant to say was:
    Charlottesville is an ugly reminder that America's racist past is very much alive
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 11:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Buzzfeed: What Really Happened in Charlottesville -- including a detailed breakdown of the groups present, and good narrative including geography of how the day went down. Among other things, it notes that the Three Percenters -- the militia guys with long guns -- actually stood down at one point, and pointedly disavow support for the white supremacist agenda (they're basically more purely anti-government), though they did help defend some of the leadership in retreat.
    Around noon, both state and local police declared Unite the Right and the demonstrations in the surrounding streets an unlawful assembly. They evicted everyone from Emancipation Park by a police line. Right-wing extremists and white nationalists fought the police, which is highly unusual. (At previous rallies in Berkeley and Portland, the alt-right has complied with police direction and sought permits for their gatherings, which has helped them maintain the stance that they are acting in self-defense when things get violent. The permits, in particular, ensure that their left-wing antagonists, often antifa in Black Bloc formation, end up on wrong side of a police riot shield.)

    In Charlottesville, though, white nationalists, including Spencer, leaned against police’s riot shields in a desperate attempt to keep their place. Police pushed them along the entire length of the park and down the stone steps into a waiting, screaming crowd.
    And as grim a scene as it depicts, I LOL'ed at this:
    One young white man carrying the black and white flag of Odinism started brawling with counter protesters even as his own comrades retreated.

    “Let’s get this race war started! Shoot me!” he yelled.

    Instead, a counter demonstrator stole his flag and tried to escape over a police fence. The man with the Odinist flag followed the protester, grabbed his backpack, and smashed his head into the metal barricade.
    There is also a discussion of a remarkable backchannel attempt to "prevent" (author's words) the event in the first place, which got right-wing figure CJ Ross disinvited. Confirmed by Charlottesville activist Emily Gorcenski on her Twitter.
    posted by dhartung at 11:22 PM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


    I would love to see this statue destroyed, but it reminds me of my trip to Gori, birthplace of Stalin, in the republic of Georgia. Saakashvili had had the statue of Stalin removed in the middle of the night shortly before my visit because "that was the only time we could rent the crane."

    We got off at Stalin Station. Walked up Stalin Street. Passed Stalin Square where the Statue had been. Passed Stalin's birth house to the Stalin museum where a docent recalled us with tales of how amazing and powerful Stalin was.

    We can get rid of this statue, and all the other ones. But the infrastructure of racism runs so deep that my grandkids will still be fighting it.
    posted by nestor_makhno at 11:23 PM on August 13, 2017 [21 favorites]


    Nazi wants help finding hero that punched him. Asks on 4chan. Much LOLing occurs. Via @wyatt_privilege
    posted by Joe in Australia at 11:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


    That would be comforting, but I think the only reason they're not helping him is he made the cardinal mistake of revealing who he actually was. (assuming I have my chan culture right. I don't indulge)
    posted by Yowser at 11:51 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Can anyone else confirm if Anonymous have just taken over The Daily Stormer ?
    posted by phigmov at 11:59 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Sean West Wispy:
    In the past year the alt-right has gone from a nascent and growing white nationalist movement with dangerous inroads to mainstream conservativsm to an increasingly isolated fringe group that just murdered someone at a rally. Their movement went from potentially having the ability to grow open white nationalist politics in the Republican party to being as isolated and dangerous for mainstream Republicans to associate with as nazi skinheads or the klan. They may have killed one of us yesterday, but their movement is now as good as dead. Say goodbye to your aspirations for power you low life creeps. Your numbers were dwarfed by progressives and anti-fascists yesterday and you could not hold the park where your white supremacist protest was scheduled to happen yesterday. That would have been the headline if you hadn’t murdered someone. You have been outmatched are now part of a pantheon of far right fringe groups that are isolated from the political power you so desperately crave. And we will never let you out the corner you are currently boxed in. So long creeps. You are getting walked the fuck off this stage of history. 😀
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 12:03 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    optimistic
    posted by ominous_paws at 12:20 AM on August 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


    Overly.
    posted by Yowser at 12:24 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Nah, one of the following tweets in that thread nails it. It's that a *chan board is not your personal army [more here]. Asking openly for help like this is also an admission of weakness. If you really want something like this to happen it needs to be lulzy in execution or result.

    Can anyone else confirm if Anonymous have just taken over The Daily Stormer ?

    Welp. The site remains accessible and has a story on the front page allegedly signed by Anonymous [only go there if you want to be exposed to the rest of the site, obvs]. They haven't taken down "the hate", they say, because they want it on display for another 24 hours (I guess until the GoDaddy clock runs out?), so if anyone wants to archive that shit they'd better get on it. They also say they're threatening to geolocate the guy who runs it, so we may find out tomorrow.

    Barring a response that wrests back control of the site, this isn't a great advertisement for Cloudflare, I'd say....

    So long creeps. You are getting walked the fuck off this stage of history.

    I might fully agree with this except for the Buzzfeed overview that suggests they were trained and somewhat disciplined in their tactics. (After all, despite the presence of armed militias and who knows how many concealed carry types, nobody was shot.) Still, there seem to have been two key errors in the control-of-troops area, both in the clashes in and around the park turning physically violent, and in the murder-by-muscle-car. What I worry about in the foreseeable future is that this event served as a branding party, and while some groups might fold or blow over in a stiff wind, others might gain membership and acquire, essentially, both street-fighting experience and the lack of fear that follows losing that particular virginity. This showed that quite a few of them have a taste for blood and could work together despite [comparatively] wide ideological differences and aims.

    (I've never felt that the straight-up neo-Nazi stuff was going to dominate. The US has a long history of white nationalism that doesn't need all the early-20th-century uniforms and marching formations. This movement is still struggling to find its truly broad appeal and keeps trying to sell it with annoying geeks like Stephen Miller. Who, granted, probably has his main appeal with other annoying geeks.)

    But yeah, it's all fun and games until the FBI terrorism investigation. I want to hope, and there are signs like the handful of forceful GOP condemnations, but while it's clear that a dead girl [forgive the rhetorical point, referencing Edwin Edwards here] is bad for the brand, I'm also loathe to be confident that the actual tipping point has been reached. The last couple of years have not been kind to best-case scenarios, to put it lightly. With a heavy heart, I feel that Heather Heyer will be given companions in martyrdom before we're ready.
    posted by dhartung at 12:29 AM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Just started reading the Charlottesville Syllabus compiled by UVa graduate students. There are six sections currently:
    1. The KKK, the Alt Right, and the History of White Supremacist Groups in Charlottesville
    2. Gentrification and the razing of Vinegar Hill, Charlottesville’s thriving black business district
    3. The Lost Cause, Memorialization, and Charlottesville’s Confederate Statues
    4. Slavery and Thomas Jefferson’s University
    5. The University of Virginia Pioneers the Eugenics Movement
    6. Jim Crow and Civil Rights organizing by students at the University of Virginia
    There is a lot of valuable analysis and source materials in the syllabus. I'm in the middle of reading “Tools of Displacement,” by Sophie Abramowitz, Eva Latterner, Gillet Rosenblith for Slate (23 June 2017)
    A history of Charlottesville’s Confederate monuments that traces how the installation of the statues in the early 20th Century functioned as the vanguard of gentrification, uprooting and displacing black and immigrant communities from local centers of political and financial power.
    Mucho mahalos to Joseph Gurl for sharing this.
    posted by spamandkimchi at 1:18 AM on August 14, 2017 [50 favorites]


    Can anyone else confirm if Anonymous have just taken over The Daily Stormer ?

    Welp. The site remains accessible and has a story on the front page allegedly signed by Anonymous [only go there if you want to be exposed to the rest of the site, obvs]. They haven't taken down "the hate", they say, because they want it on display for another 24 hours (I guess until the GoDaddy clock runs out?), so if anyone wants to archive that shit they'd better get on it. They also say they're threatening to geolocate the guy who runs it, so we may find out tomorrow.


    I can confirm they absolutely did not. I was directed there by someone who thought they had, but the post contains lots of clues that Andrew Anglin himself wrote it. I even read the comments; and there was much lolling and keking amid the memes of the commentariat.

    Anyway, I took one for the team. I am off to bleach my eyes.
    posted by louche mustachio at 2:29 AM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


    I also visited Stormfront today, first time and (touch wood) only time. I just had to see what they would say about Heather Heyer.

    Holy shit what totally garbage people. I guess I already knew that, but the kind of glee they had for the murder if a WHITE woman... holy shit... it doesn't even make sense by their own fucked up rules.

    Seems Stormfront is not even meant for white people, just white men.
    posted by Meatbomb at 2:48 AM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    It's entirely understandable, Meatbomb, because they operate on the "with us or against us" mindset, and are convinced that the "against us" team is for their genocide.

    Therefore, any death on the "other side" is the death of an enemy combatant, and to be celebrated.

    It's very classic "othering," reinforced through a particularly racist and brutal set of filters.
    posted by Archelaus at 3:11 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    In the past year the alt-right has gone from a nascent and growing white nationalist movement with dangerous inroads to mainstream conservativsm to an increasingly isolated fringe group that just murdered someone at a rally. . . .
    I love the world this person lives in, but hoo-boy, when they come up for air they're going to be really disappointed when they look around.
    posted by Anonymous at 3:22 AM on August 14, 2017




    Stormfront's attitude to Heather Heyer makes perfect sense under their fucked up rules, given how much hatred they have for what they call "race traitors". (About thirteen years ago, when I was a super-anxious teenager, I decided that the best way to drive myself insane as an ethnic minority person in the UK was to become really familiar with the lingo, aims, and theories of white nationalists in Britain and abroad. I really regret the fact that that bonkers and niche obsessiveness is now of some practical value.)
    posted by Aravis76 at 4:06 AM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Did anyone else see that #Yesyoureracist twitter feed say that the head of the U of Washington Young Republicans was there? Can anyone confirm that from a pic? If so, maybe someone with a twitter account could mention that on the U W Twitter, I don't tweet so I can't. Given the violence by the rightwingers at that Milo Yiannopolus speech at UW in January, it would be a data point if it were true that these Young Republicans are at least being led by someone who doesn't mind consorting with actual Nazis.
    posted by Rufous-headed Towhee heehee at 4:19 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    @TimFullerton
    This is what a hero looks like

    PHOTO: I Escaped the Nazis Once. You Will Not Defeat Me Now.
    posted by chris24 at 4:26 AM on August 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


    Did anyone else see that #Yesyoureracist twitter feed say that the head of the U of Washington Young Republicans was there? Can anyone confirm that from a pic?

    I think it's Washington State instead of UW? But either either way, wannabe-Sarah-Palin Cathy McMorris-Rogers is currently facing a lot of heat on her Facebook page because (much like Heller and the Nazis) she's pictured with the guy and offered a super mealthy-mouth defense of the photo op.
    posted by TwoStride at 4:29 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Rust Moranis: Tom Bossert (DHS) is on Tapper right now insisting on "both sides" and "all groups" and refusing to even say "neo-nazi" or "white supremacist" or to condemn or assign any blame to racism/white nationalism. This is chilling.

    edit: he finally was forced to reluctantly say that he denounces nazis. He literally rolls his eyes first. It's disgusting.


    @costareports (WaPo, NBC)
    Bossert is the person who most accurately channeled Trump's thinking on #Charlottesville, per several ppl in Trump's circle

    ---

    Yep, disgusting.
    posted by chris24 at 4:33 AM on August 14, 2017 [16 favorites]


    I'm glad to see attention in print to the history and context of these memorials. At the ceremony where they dedicated UNC's , the speaker reminisced about horesewhipping an African-American woman on the street in front of the statue, since she had spoken non-deferentially to a white woman. That's what these things celebrate.
    posted by thelonius at 4:47 AM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Here's a Twitter thread on the many memorials to slaves in the Caribbean, which highlights the absolute dearth of them in the United States and the many memorials to Confederate leaders.
    posted by PenDevil at 4:55 AM on August 14, 2017 [31 favorites]


    We got off at Stalin Station. Walked up Stalin Street. Passed Stalin Square where the Statue had been. Passed Stalin's birth house to the Stalin museum where a docent recalled us with tales of how amazing and powerful Stalin was.

    We can get rid of this statue, and all the other ones. But the infrastructure of racism runs so deep that my grandkids will still be fighting it.


    Yep. I was getting uppity against people on Twitter yesterday; in the process, I looked up how many other existing commemorations of Lee exist and was finding buildings, roads, towns, schools, and two state holidays.

    Good MERCY what spoiled babies these are.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:55 AM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


    @emayfarris
    Worried about telling off a white supremacist or neo-nazi?
    Channel your inner Bill Baxley, Alabama's Attorney General in 1976 to KKK: LETTER

    "Dr." Edward R. Fields
    National States Rights Party
    P.O. Box 1211
    Marietta, Georgia 30061

    Dear "Dr." Fields:

    My response to your letter of February 19, 1976 is -- kiss my ass.

    Sincerely,
    BILL BAXLEY
    Attorney General


    ---

    My favorite part is the " " around Dr. both times. And fucking Alabama, in the 70s, better than Trump & Co.
    posted by chris24 at 4:55 AM on August 14, 2017 [63 favorites]


    @costareports (WaPo, NBC)
    Bossert is the person who most accurately channeled Trump's thinking on #Charlottesville, per several ppl in Trump's circle


    On MSNBC a little while ago, Costa said that Bossert was with Trump in Bedminster for at least part of the weekend, and also said sources had told him that Trump and a few people around him were watching coverage of Charlottesville on TV (gee, I wonder which channel?) and immediately keyed in on the counterprotesters as the people causing the problems. So Trump just ignored the talking points and text suggested by actual comms. people and went with "his instincts" on what to say about the "sides."
    posted by FelliniBlank at 5:09 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Their movement went from potentially having the ability to grow open white nationalist politics in the Republican party to being as isolated and dangerous for mainstream Republicans to associate with as nazi skinheads or the klan. They may have killed one of us yesterday, but their movement is now as good as dead.

    On the other hand, one of them is the President.
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:15 AM on August 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


    Matt Novak/Gizmodo: Why Are Neo-Nazis on Twitter So Scared of Being Called Neo-Nazis?
    Yesterday’s rally of neo-Nazis, Klansmen, and so-called “alt-right” activists predictably devolved into violence. One anti-fascist protester and two police officers are dead, and dozens more were injured by neo-Nazis in a fascist rally at the University of Virginia. But after the streets were cleared, far right thugs who participated in the demonstration seemed only concerned with one thing: Not being called Nazis.

    It’s a curious thing that I’ve seen happen since President Trump was elected. People of the “alt-right” are very concerned about being called Nazis, even when they promote ideas that are unquestionably aligned with Nazism. There were literally Nazi flags at yesterday’s rally, and ABC News even made the obvious comparison to Nazi rallies of the 1920s and 30s on TV last night. But high-profile people from the protests have been clutching their pearls on social media whenever people have dared called them Nazis.
    See also: Godwin quote above
    posted by ZeusHumms at 5:27 AM on August 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe is on a special episode of Pod Save the People this morning with BLM activist DeRay Mckeson
    posted by T.D. Strange at 5:39 AM on August 14, 2017 [16 favorites]


    I made my morning swing through wral.com and of course the main story is the Charlottesville thing. Supposedly, Raleigh is a blue dot in the red sea. Holy shit the comments. I'm surrounded by horrible hateful assholes. The whole Soros conspiracy bullshit is there, free speech etc etc etc. Unbelievable.

    My mind wandered over when Dylann Roof is scheduled to be executed, so I searched. All I could think was what fresh hell awaits when THAT happens. That is tempered with, thinking. it should fucking happen NOW.
    posted by yoga at 5:43 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]




    And holy shit, Trump just immediately attacked him and Merck.

    @realDonaldTrump
    Now that Ken Frazier of Merck Pharma has resigned from President's Manufacturing Council,he will have more time to LOWER RIPOFF DRUG PRICES!
    posted by chris24 at 5:57 AM on August 14, 2017 [25 favorites]


    Did anyone else see that #Yesyoureracist twitter feed say that the head of the U of Washington Young Republicans was there? Can anyone confirm that from a pic?

    I think it's Washington State instead of UW? But either either way, wannabe-Sarah-Palin Cathy McMorris-Rogers


    The one I'm seeing is this tweet that identifies "James Allsup -- speaker at the alt-right rally, Wash State U. College Republicans president" with pictures including a screencap from Allsup's twitter announcement that he will be speaking at Unite the Right on the 12th.

    (I don't have a twitter account so just passing on the link here.)
    posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:01 AM on August 14, 2017


    Holy shit what totally garbage people. I guess I already knew that, but the kind of glee they had for yhe murder if a WHITE woman... holy shit... it doesn't even make sense by their own fucked up rules.

    Yes, white women who don't listen, decide that these men are the bees knees and fall to their knees in supplication to the 'movement' (and the men) get extra special form form of hatred. It is it's own category, a form of race and sexual betrayal. White woman are (obviously) absolutely necessary to have white babies and give the mens the sex. Refusal to play along = viseral rage.
    posted by Jalliah at 6:30 AM on August 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


    So, to re-cap:

    A bunch of butthurt white middle manager Nazi simps from the Midwest drove down to Virginia because they were mad about a city taking down a statue.

    The city's actual citizens were annoyed with this, and showed up to express their annoyance.

    The Nazis responded by whining a lot and hitting some people with a car (possibly the most suburban form of violence ever).

    The Trump administration responded with its usual dick-tripping hamfistedness.

    These fuckers are just lucky "Social Justice Warriors" aren't the violent thugs they project them as. This is Virginia, dudes. Lotta guns around here.

    Can you fucking imagine if me and a bunch of other cucks showed up in Indianapolis and started telling them what they can do with their statues?
    posted by aspersioncast at 6:44 AM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


    And holy shit, Trump just immediately attacked him and Merck.

    @realDonaldTrump
    Now that Ken Frazier of Merck Pharma has resigned from President's Manufacturing Council,he will have more time to LOWER RIPOFF DRUG PRICES!


    Imagine if he attacked the Nazis with such ferocity.

    Although, in fairness, drug companies have killed more people with their high drug prices than domestic nazis.
    posted by Talez at 6:45 AM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


    The Nazis responded by whining a lot and hitting some people with a car (possibly the most suburban form of violence ever).

    Don't forget going to town on that black kid, Deandre Harris, in a parking lot with a metal pole.
    posted by Talez at 6:46 AM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    ‘Evil Attack’ in Virginia Is Domestic Terrorism, Sessions Says, Eileen Sullivan, NYT
    “It does meet the definition of domestic terrorism in our statute,” Mr. Sessions said on ABC’s “Good Morning America,” referring to a fatal attack on Saturday when a vehicle drove into a crowd protesting white nationalists, killing one woman and injuring others. A 20-year-old man has been arrested and charged with second-degree murder, three counts of malicious wounding and failing to stop at the scene of a crash that resulted in a death.

    “You can be sure we will charge and advance the investigation toward the most serious charges that can be brought because this is unequivocally an unacceptable evil attack,” Mr. Sessions said, adding that terrorism and civil rights investigators were working on the case.
    posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:51 AM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Although, in fairness, drug companies have killed more people with their high drug prices than domestic nazis.

    Do you think that Trump really gives a shit about high drug prices? It was just the most convenient thing that he could think of to beat up on someone who he felt had betrayed him.
    posted by octothorpe at 6:51 AM on August 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


    Mod note: A few deleted, apparent hoax claim of new Melania Trump plagiarism re Charlottesville response.
    posted by taz (staff) at 6:56 AM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Under so many of these Republican condemnations, I just can't help but hear the silent "omg you guys you're supposed to keep it on the DL, stop ruining white supremacy for the rest of us!" They're going to go after Fields and then declare racism solved.

    And like honestly none of these Nazi assholes are going to feel chastened. They know what's up. They know these statements are necessary for these politicians to stay respectable and in power. And they know that the Republican Party will have the backs of white people forever. They know that these statements mean precisely zero without actual actions towards the dismantlement of the rampant white supremacy within all levels of the Party. No one's widdle feelings are going to be hurt by Sessions getting mildly shirty on national TV. They see the crossed fingers behind the backs of the entire GOP.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 6:59 AM on August 14, 2017 [55 favorites]


    His name is Michael Tubbs. He spent YEARS in prison for plotting to bomb Black & Jewish prisons. He was a member of the KKK. He was caught stealing guns from the military for the KKK while he was a serviceman.
    He is a widely known white supremacist and a truly dangerous man. In Charlottesville, he was seen overseeing and ordering much of the violence.


    I wonder how much that attack was a deliberate blooding, to build and radicalise the movement, it was part of the original Brownshirt playbook [2nd to last para] and it does seem like some of them have done their reading and are trying to recreate that past.
    posted by Buntix at 7:00 AM on August 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Imagine what kind of asshole you would have to be for a pharma CEO to look like the good guy by comparison.
    posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:00 AM on August 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


    Whatever the motive, I think there's no turning back on declaring white nationalists terrorists. It's too bad it came too late for McVeigh and Dylan Rooff. I mean, there's no turning back as long as the media holds people to that.
    posted by Room 641-A at 7:04 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    (I mean the motive of Sessions, et al)
    posted by Room 641-A at 7:04 AM on August 14, 2017


    Do you think that Trump really gives a shit about high drug prices? It was just the most convenient thing that he could think of to beat up on someone who he felt had betrayed him.

    That someone also happens to be an African American.
    posted by Mister Bijou at 7:10 AM on August 14, 2017 [16 favorites]


    If Trump does say something today I would expect it to be in the same unconvincing, put-upon, vindictive way he finally said he thought Obama was born in the US.
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:11 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I think it's pretty clear that Trump said the second thing that came to mind.
    posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 7:12 AM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    For anyone that thinks Anonymous might have taken over the Daily Stormer, you might pause to consider that noted Nazi and Internet Troll, Andrew "weev" Aurenheimer is very involved in that site. He would totally "hack" himself to laugh at people that believed it.

    Which is not to say that Anonymous didn't take over the site, but you can't disprove either hypothesis with the available evidence.
    posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:15 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    If Trump does say something today I would expect it to be in the same unconvincing, put-upon, vindictive way he finally said he thought Obama was born in the US.

    It's really too late at this point. The dithering, bothsides-whataboutism over the weekend was enough to convince the neo-KKK that Trump is on their side. If he condemns them now, now matter how he comes off, sincere or begrudging, they'll all think that it's a bit of sleight of hand he was forced into by the (((globalists))) in his cabinet, and that he's still 100% behind him. The same thing happened back when he refused to denounce the KKK the first time, and then again and again and again.
    posted by dis_integration at 7:16 AM on August 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


    I wonder how much that attack was a deliberate blooding, to build and radicalise the movement, it was part of the original Brownshirt playbook [2nd to last para] and it does seem like some of them have done their reading and are trying to recreate that past.

    What ought to be pointed out to these young men - disgusting as they are - is that they are the ones who are going to go to jail. Beardy Stand-Around has some deniability because he didn't actually hit anyone.

    It may be part of the Brownshirt playbook, but no one had phone cameras back then - you can't just beat someone and fade away into the crowd now.
    posted by Frowner at 7:18 AM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Do you think that Trump really gives a shit about high drug prices?

    Back when the Senate was making it's secret bill, I read an interview with a healthcare economist who had actually spent time with Trump, and he said that he thinks that Trump actually does care about the issue of high drug prices, perhaps because it is a simple idea that he can understand: Prices are too high! Only Trump can make lower!
    posted by thelonius at 7:20 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    The Nazis responded by whining a lot and hitting some people with a car (possibly the most suburban form of violence ever).

    I think this is a gross oversimplification and minimization of what happened. A human being - Heather Heyer - lost her life and the perp is being charged with murder.

    Also, vehicle-ramming terror attacks are primarily urban, not suburban.
    posted by zakur at 7:25 AM on August 14, 2017 [19 favorites]


    Re the "race traitor" thing, I know next to nothing about white supremacists but I've noticed in general you can predict how white supremacists feel about a thing by trying to imagine Lucius Malfoy reacting to it? Maybe this only works if you've read a lot of Harry Potter fanfiction, but lots of people on the internet meet that description, so.
    posted by potrzebie at 7:25 AM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Most white supremacists don't have Lucius Malfoy's sense of style.
    posted by Archelaus at 7:31 AM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


    “The Perpetual Unpleasantness,” Chuck Reece, Tim Turner, and Tom Lee, The Bitter Southerner, 14 August 2017
    posted by ob1quixote at 7:34 AM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    After Nazi Germany surrendered, the Allied powers undertook a massive program of de-Nazifying Germany. It was an effort that included tearing down Nazi monuments, but more critically one that involved including education about the evils of Nazism in German schools and propaganda and legal efforts to prevent a Lost Cause style mythology from growing up around Nazism.

    As a result today in Germany there isn't much of a pro-Nazi faction.

    Following the surrender of the Confederate States of America, the USA failed to engage in a program of de-Confederatizing the South, and after a few years of token efforts the US essentially abandoned the South and the black people there to the vengeance of their white neighbors [1].

    As a result the Lost Cause narrative took root in the South and quickly spread across the nation as a whole. Starting in the 1920's and lasting through the early 1950's there was a massive program of erecting celebratory monuments to the Confederacy everywhere across the USA, it was most successful in the South, but the United Daughters of the Confederacy (and to a somewhat lesser extent the Sons of Confederate Veterans) were quite successful in enacting their program nationwide.

    We are now the inheritors of that shameful legacy of cowardice and duty shirking of our post-Civil War ancestors in the North. They won the shooting war, but failed to carry through the victory and truly defeat the enemy ideology.

    That falls to us now.

    We must recognize that the task is a de-Confederatizing program that will be more expensive and require more effort than the de-Nazification program in Germany ever was. It will involve protests that make the ones we've seen seem small by comparison, multiple lawsuits, and a loud proclamation of victimhood coupled with acts of violence from the white supremacist forces.

    Simply tearing down the physical monuments is necessary, but not sufficient. We must take over boards of education across the USA and impose educational standards that explicitly reject Lost Causeism and teach the truth about the Civil War and the Confederate States of America.

    That too will be violently opposed and prompt loud cries of revisionism and using schools for indoctrination. It is incumbent on us to ignore those lies and pursue the corrective education of children across America without hesitation or doubt.

    Because the murder of Heather Heyer is merely on in a long chain of people, mostly people of color, murdered by white supremacists intent on preserving their false history and domination of US politics. As long as they are permitted to keep the Lost Cause myth alive there will be more killings. Their mythology demands it.

    The only way to truly end this is to do the job that our ancestors failed to do in the 1870's. We must grind out the ideology of Confederatism and raise up a generation of American children who are as indoctrinated against Confederatism as German children are as indoctrinated against Nazism. And we must do this in the face of loud and often violent opposition from those who want to preserve the lies they currently teach children.

    The violence will only end when Americans as ashamed of the Confederate Battle Flag as Germans are of the Nazi flag. If that seems like a difficult task, it is. But it is not impossible. We **CAN** root out Confederatism and we must. The memory of Heather Heyer, of Martin Luther King Jr, of Malcolm X, of Trayvon Martin, of Emmett Till, of Tamir Rice, and all the other victims of white supremacy demand it.

    [1] And, it should be added, the North engaged in a program of systemic murder of any black people who tried to settle in the North outside of a few black parts of major metropolitan areas. We think of lynching as mostly being confined to the South, but black settlers in the North were murdered at an astonishing rate, and that's one major reason why so few black people fled their oppression in the South.
    posted by sotonohito at 7:35 AM on August 14, 2017 [192 favorites]


    Sorry, not trying to minimize that someone died, just to point out how awful and ridiculous it all is. Especially in light of recent legislation in a number of places to essentially legalize hitting protesters with cars, it's probably not something to be glib about.
    posted by aspersioncast at 7:35 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Damn that is a good Bitter Southerner piece. I was actually just talking them up the other day to a friend and colleague of mine on Twitter who is also a Southerner and completely fucking done with the Confederate flag, pissed off and angry about pro-Confederate memorials on her field sites. I'm delighted to be able to start her off with that piece, right there.
    posted by sciatrix at 7:42 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    To be fair, drug companies have also saved many more lives than they sometimes get credit for. Which reminds me that Merck makes Propecia, the hair loss drug Trump is known to take (via his own doctor's note from last year).

    Maybe Merck ought to tweet back: Be a real shame if something were to happen to your hair, bro.
    posted by spitbull at 7:55 AM on August 14, 2017 [40 favorites]


    We think of lynching as mostly being confined to the South, but black settlers in the North were murdered at an astonishing rate, and that's one major reason why so few black people fled their oppression in the South.

    I have no other bones to pick with your otherwise excellent comment, but: actually, many many black people did flee their oppression in the South anyway, under the theory that a chance of something better is an improvement from the certainty of something terrible. The Great Migration saw almost half the entire African-American population of the US leaving the South over the course of fifty years, mostly for Northern and Midwestern urban areas, and while they were met with hostility and aggression every step of the way, from their travels with minimal and uncertain places to rest along the way to their reception in cities that tried to push them out and then tried to confine them if they could not be rejected--

    still they did go.
    posted by sciatrix at 7:56 AM on August 14, 2017 [41 favorites]


    Well, it looks like I'm going to eat the world's tiniest hat. That Trump-loving aunt I commented about in a bit of a rant earlier? Just linked to this essay on Charlottesville, which is... pretty good for her being a die-hard Trump supporter, honestly.
    "This is racism.
    This is domestic terrorism.
    This is religious extremism.
    This is bigotry.
    It is blind hatred of the most vile kind.
    It doesn’t represent America.
    It doesn’t represent Jesus.
    It doesn’t speak for the majority of white Americans.
    It’s a cancerous, terrible, putrid sickness that represents the absolute worst of who we are.

    No, naming it won’t change it, but naming it is necessary nonetheless. It’s necessary for us to say it—especially when the media won’t, when our elected leaders won’t, when our President won’t. It’s necessary to condemn it so that we do not become complicit in it."
    I mean, I have some quibbles with any language that jumps too quick to "condemn, and now I'm good, job done!" but on a very personal level, seeing her put this out to all her (also Trump-loving) friends makes me wonder if possibly, just possibly, we are approaching some of Trump supporters' true "surely this" tipping point. I don't actually have any hope or belief to this effect, just this dull feeling where hope used to sit this time last year.
    posted by deludingmyself at 7:59 AM on August 14, 2017 [44 favorites]


    Also, emjaybee:

    > Apparently these fucknuggets have a White Lives Matter rally planned at Texas A&M on September 11. But in good news, many Aggies are planning a counter protest. There's a vigil tonight for Charlottesville that I wasn't able to go to in Fort Worth. Friends tell me at least 200 ppl there

    Reminder's been buzzing in my Austin circles, too, and that's with me having taken a big step back from Facebook. When I'm done with this other project I'm working on, might see if anyone wants to carpool from UT to help out some Aggies. I haven't gotten my teaching schedule yet, but even if I am teaching on Mondays... well, I might just sit down with my students at the beginning of the year and have a chat about what is happening and why.
    posted by sciatrix at 8:00 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Dilbert's Bad Day
    posted by PenDevil at 8:04 AM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


    angrycat: If somebody went to another person and said, 'you should do this so that people don't think you're racist,' how do you argue against that? How are you not well I'll hop to it then.

    I know the answer to this. It's a very stupid answer, but I see it again and again: "I'm not a bad person. By calling me racist, you're saying I'm a bad person. Therefore you're bad for making me feel bad, and that justifies me getting angry. You're the bad person for starting this argument."

    And I think they believe it. Or they've convinced themselves to believe it.
    posted by clawsoon at 8:10 AM on August 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


    I mean, I have some quibbles with any language that jumps too quick to "condemn, and now I'm good, job done!" but on a very personal level, seeing her put this out to all her (also Trump-loving) friends makes me wonder if possibly, just possibly, we are approaching some of Trump supporters' true "surely this" tipping point. I don't actually have any hope or belief to this effect, just this dull feeling where hope used to sit this time last year.
    posted by deludingmyself at 4:59 AM on 8/14


    eponhereshopingyouainterical
    posted by progosk at 8:13 AM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Convicted felon Dinesh D'Souza more than "taught" at The Kings College, an odd and very scammy offshoot of the strange and cultish history of the former Campus Crusade for Christ (which basically had bought out a defunct NJ liberal arts college in the 1970s). He was briefly its very well compensated president, appointed in 2010 by creepy provost Marvin Olasky, in order to put the college on the map and raise funds. (NYT story from 2012). He was kicked out by Olasky after his extramarital affair came to light. TKC has only a few dozen students and operates out of an office suite in the financial district. It has long had a minor role in the wingnut welfare system, although it is actually accredited. A few years ago I had reason to study the place and it creeped me right out.
    posted by spitbull at 8:15 AM on August 14, 2017 [18 favorites]


    Just found out today that this fucker, who's apparently been acting as Kessler's attorney, operates just a couple of miles from where my mom lives. Still trying to process that info.
    posted by non canadian guy at 8:15 AM on August 14, 2017


    Trae Crowder - Liberal Redneck - Virginia is for Lovers, not Nazis (YouTube video, 2min16sec).
    posted by phoque at 8:17 AM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    dhartung: Nah, one of the following tweets in that thread nails it. It's that a *chan board is not your personal army [more here]. Asking openly for help like this is also an admission of weakness. If you really want something like this to happen it needs to be lulzy in execution or result.

    Is this the point that 4chan realizes that Trump is not, in fact, in it for the lulz?
    posted by clawsoon at 8:27 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I know the answer to this. It's a very stupid answer, but I see it again and again: "I'm not a bad person. By calling me racist, you're saying I'm a bad person. Therefore you're bad for making me feel bad, and that justifies me getting angry. You're the bad person for starting this argument."

    And I think they believe it. Or they've convinced themselves to believe it.


    Yeah, I guess I know this. I remember the last time I got frustrated with an accessibility issue and blundered into it without my diplomat hat on, I manage to piss off a number of people. Telling people 'x is the law,' when it comes to disabled access issues, boy, people get tense quick.

    ETA not trying to equate accessibility issues with Nazi homicides, just, I get that psychology
    posted by angrycat at 8:34 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I have so much to say and I am struggling for the words. I'm angry. On a different level for the last two days than I have been since November 9th or 10th.

    1. May Heather Heyer's name and deeds be remembered across the generations.
    2. I am somewhat surprised it didn't happen earlier, but I'm not at all surprised it happened. I predicted it numerous times in previous threads and it is exactly what I've been expecting.
    3. I am angry in a way that I don't like. I am 100% pro Nazi-punching, but I went to the market this weekend and looked at every white face with suspicion. Especially young white men. I know that people of color experience this constantly, but while I try to be aware of the suspicion of others, I am usually not aware of it coming from myself, unless I am surrounded by teen aged boys. A privileged position to be sure.

    On white women:
    Glennon Doyle, one of the original celebrity mommy bloggers (momastery) who has since divorced her husband and is now in a relationship with Abby Wambach (of soccer fame). This weekend, she wrote with a great deal of honesty and humility about being a white family and what they are doing/would have done/want to be perceived as in our racist current environment. (Facebook link) She begins with a lie and then a very honest truth from her 10 year old daughter and speaks honestly about how her family benefits from white supremacy. And then the comments. If you don't know any white women who voted for trump, go look, they're all right there in her comments making excuses, looking the other way and shuffling blame. I knew they were here, but I have never seen so many of them in one place. It's enlightening for those of us who live in blue enclaves surrounded by people who think like us.
    posted by Sophie1 at 8:39 AM on August 14, 2017 [53 favorites]


    Random Twitter Roundup:

    Kurt Eichenwald‏ (@kurteichenwald): Remember Trump couldnt say "Jews" for Holocaust memorial? Now can't say "Nazis" or "White supremcists." Its "He means everyone" both times.

    Virginia Rep. Don Beyer (@RepDonBeyer): Donald Trump's staff asked him to personally deliver a statement denouncing white supremacists. He refused.

    Rep. Maxine Waters (@MaxineWaters): Trump has made it clear - w/ Bannon & Gorka in the WH, & the Klan in the streets, it is now the White Supremacists' House. #Charlottesviille

    Sen. Kamala Harris (@KamalaHarris): If we say this is not who we are, it’s on us to show that. We don’t have to let extremists define our nation.
    posted by Doktor Zed at 8:40 AM on August 14, 2017 [50 favorites]


    Sophie1: May Heather Heyer's name and deeds be remembered across the generations.

    A suggestion from another forum: Replace the Lee statue with a statue of Heather Heyer.
    posted by clawsoon at 8:45 AM on August 14, 2017 [41 favorites]


    well, if a rally is "White Lives Matter" themed, we need to show up en masse with signs saying "Heather Heyer's Life Matters".
    posted by oneswellfoop at 8:46 AM on August 14, 2017 [21 favorites]


    I'm trying to keep on eye on my whiteness by remembering the black women who have been killed by white supremacy/misogyny/trans misogyny before Heather Heyer was and I would like to see us demand and advocate for statues for them as well.
    posted by Annika Cicada at 8:50 AM on August 14, 2017 [88 favorites]


    Anybody have any write-ups to their congress enablers? I'm a little to0 pissed off to write anything that isn't just a stream of expletives and accusations. I have Toomey....*glare.
    posted by cui bono at 8:51 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I bet those conversations between Trump and the WH staffers who asked him to release a statement denouncing Nazis ended with him turning the volume on Fox News up louder and louder until they left the room.
    posted by The Card Cheat at 8:53 AM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Josh Marshal (TPM) with a short piece entitled: Don't be a Chump
    He’s already made crystal clear where he stands here. The question is how we individually and as a country are going to deal with that fact, not how many more mulligans we’re going to give him.
    Point is that any denunciation from that man is way too late and would be totally bereft of meaning. He's on their side. He and his enablers must be held accountable for their inadequate words and horrifying actions.
    posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 8:53 AM on August 14, 2017 [19 favorites]


    Okay, apparently so pissed off that I edited for a typo and then made another typo. That's just sad. Maybe I should just go to the Tuesdays with Toomey tomorrow?
    posted by cui bono at 8:53 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    cui bono, at least your representative made a statement. My rep (Rodney Frelinghuysen) is the only NJ congressperson who hasn't made a statement.
    posted by MsVader at 8:55 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Toomey did manage to clear that low bar at least. Scooby Snack for him.
    posted by cui bono at 8:58 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    cui bono, if you see me at the TwT tomorrow, say hi. I'll be the chick in the wheelchair with the freakishly muscled arms.
    posted by angrycat at 8:58 AM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


    I'm trying to keep on eye on my whiteness by remembering the black women who have been killed by white supremacy/misogyny/trans misogyny before Heather Heyer was and I would like to see us demand and advocate for statues for them as well.

    None of us should diminish Heather Heyer's significance. We should also never lose sight of how different the conversation about her in the media would become if she wasn't a white woman. If she were a person of color, we'd already be hearing about how she wasn't an angel in some way.

    What happened to her hurts. I feel awful for her and for everyone who loved her. And I also keep thinking about how gross it is to see the death of a white woman resonate so much when so many black men and women have died to nowhere near this degree of reaction from white America.
    posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:01 AM on August 14, 2017 [72 favorites]


    I bet those conversations between Trump and the WH staffers who asked him to release a statement denouncing Nazis ended with him turning the volume on Fox News up louder and louder until they left the room.

    And the other staffers who are thinking "Yeah! I can manipulate him to advance my own sick racist agenda!" I have the feeling sometimes when T tweets, there are people standing over him telling him exactly how to make it more provocative.
    posted by Melismata at 9:10 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    BBC is report that Charlottesville car-ram suspect James Alex Fields denied bail. He also won't get a public defender because the attack directly affected someone in the public defender's office. Instead an unlucky lawyer was appointed for him. That lawyer has yet to be informed of his new client yet.
    posted by papercrane at 9:13 AM on August 14, 2017 [28 favorites]


    Is this the point that 4chan realizes that Trump is not, in fact, in it for the lulz?

    No, they don't care for the most part. They just enjoy spreading grief on anyone they feel it's a fun target and this guy painted a bullseye on himself by asking for help.
    posted by Candleman at 9:13 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Will do, if I don't spontaneously combust with rage in the meantime. Does anyone know why the story about Deandre Harris isn't being covered as much? That was basically what they wanted to do - find minorities and beat them up. And all of those militia people who said they were there to "keep the peace" just standing there. That seems like a big deal in this story. And the part where they beat up the people the night before, including the transgender woman that they'd been harassing? I want all of these stories to be told and held up as to why this was awful, but I'm guessing media bias and sensationalism? There are so many reasons why these people are terrible, and they should be shared far and wide.
    posted by cui bono at 9:14 AM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Does anyone know why the story about Deandre Harris isn't being covered as much?

    Melanin.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:15 AM on August 14, 2017 [58 favorites]


    EmpressCallipygos: NPR was just interviewing Wes Bellamy, the Vice-Mayor of Charlottesville now; the reporter began a comment with something like, "So as I understand this all started with the city removing a statue of Robert E. Lee...." and Bellamy completely went off on that, pointing things squarely and firmly at a lengthy history of white supremacy.
    ...
    I want a transcript. really bad.


    White Supremacist Rally In Virginia Turns Violent (NPR, Aug. 12, 2017) -- A white supremacist rally in Charlottesville turned violent Saturday, with a vehicle plowing into the crowd. Vice Mayor Wes Bellamy reacts to the incident.

    Oh shit, it starts off terribly:
    STACEY VANEK SMITH, HOST:

    Now let's turn to Wes Bellamy. He's the vice-mayor of Charlottesville. He joins me now by phone.

    Hi, Wes.

    WES BELLAMY: Hi. Dr. Wes Bellamy.

    SMITH: Dr. Bellamy.

    BELLAMY: I just got my doctoral degree yesterday, so I'm still basking in the glow.

    SMITH: Congratulations. And thank you for taking the time.

    BELLAMY: Thank you. In all seriousness, thank you.

    SMITH: So we have one person dead in Charlottesville, a reported 19 injured. What is your reaction...
    His reaction is to brag about getting his doctoral degree. Oh, and then his reaction is that he's "Disappointed, to say the least." OK, disappointed and heartbroken about the actions and beliefs of white supremacists.

    Charlottesville Vice Mayor Wes Bellamy Reacts To White Nationalist Rally (NPR, Aug. 13, 2017) -- Yesterday, we invited Wes Bellamy on the program. He is the vice-mayor of Charlottesville. Unfortunately, we ran out of time while speaking to him live, and we wanted to bring him back to finish our conversation and to check back in to see what's happening in Charlottesville.

    He has time to describe more of the tragic, racist history of Charlottesville, and talks about
    posted by filthy light thief at 9:17 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Melanin

    *smoking pile where cui bono used to be*
    posted by cui bono at 9:20 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Before he joined Merck, Ken Frazier was a lawyer who freed a man from Death Row by showing the conviction was racially biassed (CNN, beware autoplay). No wonder 45's frothing at the mouth at such impertinence to his master.
    posted by Devonian at 9:27 AM on August 14, 2017 [20 favorites]


    Trump's going to try to talk about Charlottesville again. Hopefully he's had a security briefing where it was revealed that Nazis are bad
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:31 AM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]




    I'm just glad to see that federal agents are still giving right-wingers fake explosives instead of real explosives
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:34 AM on August 14, 2017 [25 favorites]


    @mattdpearce: On the same day as Charlottesville, a Three-Percenter drove a dummy truck bomb into Oklahoma City and tried to detonate it with his phone

    Here's the complaint [via @big_cases].
    posted by melissasaurus at 9:39 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Walter D. Greason twitter thread on resources for learning about the history of collective racial violence in the United States (storify link). The resources are from the only course he decided never to teach again, because it traumatized the students.

    One of the commenters asks, "Who was the most traumatized, those of us whose families could pass down direct information, or those hearing for the 1st time?"

    Greason: "It was a PWI evening class, almost all students hearing for the first time. Students with personal knowledge often feel affirmed/liberated." I laughed my ass off. The topic's not funny, but the gulf between most white people's understanding of how this country/reality works, versus mine, has been absurdly ginormous. (Cue Phil Ochs's Love Me, I'm A Liberal.) Of course lately with more white people the gulf is shrinking, somewhat. Keep up the good work teaching your fellow white people, y'all!
    posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 9:40 AM on August 14, 2017 [26 favorites]


    I don't know, I feel like it's at least not entirely inappropriate to start of a discussion of white supremacy in Charlottesville by appropriately acknowledging that the person you're talking to about it is a black man with a doctorate. Like, I think it's obnoxious for middle-class white people to stand on ceremony about that, but right now, right there? I feel like it's a distinction that matters. He's giving them an out by saying it's a matter of personal pride, but they shouldn't in a million years have needed to be corrected. Not even if it was just yesterday.
    posted by Sequence at 9:42 AM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


    misskaz: WaPo list of 18 states that have introduced or voted on legislation to curb mass protests in what civil liberties experts are calling “an attack on protest rights throughout the states.” Many of which ease penalties on drivers who hit protestors or increase penalties for protestors in roadways.

    A quick reminder: "jaywalking" means walking in the street like a country rube, and the term was invented to shame people and clear the streets for cars. Before cars, people walked in the streets, and the car was considered a killing machine when it was first introduced to streets. In fact, there are some places that people may walk on the interstates in the U.S. in the present day.
    posted by filthy light thief at 9:43 AM on August 14, 2017 [25 favorites]


    Sorry if this was already shared. TPM: Father Denounces Son Identified As Participant In White Supremacist Rally
    posted by christopherious at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2017 [35 favorites]


    Trump's going to try to talk about Charlottesville again.

    Trump: IT WAS LOCKER ROOM TALK!
    Off-screen: Sir, they don't have the tape yet.
    Trump: ...is what I would say if a video showed me dressed in Nazi-themed bondage gear, doing the Piss Heil during a screening of "Birth of a Nation," which will never happen, and if it does it's fake news.
    Reporter #1: Mr. President, what exactly is a Piss Heil?
    Trump: Thank you for asking, and let me just say that I want to thank everyone for my incredible electoral college victory. *wanders off*
    posted by Behemoth at 9:50 AM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    @mattdpearce: On the same day as Charlottesville, a Three-Percenter drove a dummy truck bomb into Oklahoma City and tried to detonate it with his phone

    How come everytime these guys try this shit and someone shows up like, "yes I can totally hook you up with some really wicked explosives dude just come over to my cool underground bomb shop. Oh, you can't pay? Here just take it on layaway I know you're good for it, dude", they are never clued in that friendly neighborhood plastic explosives supplier is an FBI agent?
    posted by dis_integration at 9:51 AM on August 14, 2017 [18 favorites]


    Father Denounces Son Identified As Participant In White Supremacist Rally

    From the link above - the father gets fierce.
    “We have been silent up until now, but now we see that this was a mistake. It was the silence of good people that allowed the Nazis to flourish the first time around, and it is the silence of good people that is allowing them to flourish now,” he wrote. “Peter Tefft, my son, is not welcome at our family gatherings any longer.”
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:51 AM on August 14, 2017 [70 favorites]


    And fiercer:
    “He once joked, ‘The thing about us fascists is, it’s not that we don’t believe in freedom of speech. You can say whatever you want. We’ll just throw you in an oven,'” Pearce Tefft said. “Peter, you will have to shovel our bodies into the oven, too.”
    posted by clawsoon at 9:53 AM on August 14, 2017 [62 favorites]


    My greatest concern is that the Internet forgets and we're all going to forget all the people directly adjacent to these Nazi scumbags. Heller will be remembered, but what about the men and women in the same photo shoot? No one will remember that they liked him enough to hang around with him, and almost certainly sympatico with his beliefs.
    posted by Yowser at 9:53 AM on August 14, 2017


    I was listening to the Pod Save the People bonus edition on the way to work this morning - was a little annoyed at Terry McAuliffe continuing to talk about how (paraphrased) "aside from the car ramming terrorist attack, the police had done a great job because no one had gone to the hospital and there had been no property damage". I had to stop listening shortly afterwards so I don't know if Deray calls him out for ignoring Deandre Harris, but ...
    posted by jferg at 9:53 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    My greatest concern is that the Internet forgets and we're all going to forget all the people directly adjacent to these Nazi scumbags. Heller will be remembered, but what about the men and women in the same photo shoot? No one will remember that they liked him enough to hang around with him, and almost certainly sympatico with his beliefs.

    That's where other people come in to call them out, really publically.

    Especially if they're politicians, and especially if they're up for re-election.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:55 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I took one for the team and watched the beginning of the live address, started off by saying he was really back in DC to start working on tax reform, blah blah, but wanted to address Charlottesville. He was obviously coached to "stick to the fuckin' script Donny" and his statements were more in line with what Sessions had said yesterday, but really no surprises.


    So yeah, not really fooling anybody.
    posted by jeremias at 10:04 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]




    Uh huh. Say anything about the ones who support him?
    posted by saturday_morning at 10:09 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    "And other hate groups" is where his racist supporters will jump in to say he's talking about BLM and antifa. He can't even do this without leaving the door wide open for that sort of shit.
    posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2017 [30 favorites]


    How come everytime these guys try this shit and someone shows up like, "yes I can totally hook you up with some really wicked explosives dude just come over to my cool underground bomb shop. Oh, you can't pay? Here just take it on layaway I know you're good for it, dude", they are never clued in that friendly neighborhood plastic explosives supplier is an FBI agent?

    the right does not have the long history of "the guy who wants you to do violence and always has money is a cop" lessons that the left does.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 10:12 AM on August 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


    Reporter #1: Mr. President, what exactly is a Piss Heil?


    Trump: Twenty bucks in town, but it's very poor quality, sad, Obama's fault, Crooked Hillary, there are no tapes, no tapes, but if there were they'd prove I'm right.
    Reporter #2: *mumbles* This guy could fuck up a six-word catchphrase.
    posted by delfin at 10:12 AM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    "We are equal under the law. And we are equal under the Constitution. Those who spread violence in the name of bigotry strike at the very core of America."

    I like to imagine Trump saying those lines into a mirror, but then I imagine him adding on "but only if you can catch me, and even if they do, there's no court who would convict me."

    After all, he thinks he's on the right side of the law. Here's his full "I'll pay your legal fees" quote:

    “If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you?” Trump said, drawing cheers and laughter. “Seriously, OK? Just knock the hell — I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise. They won’t be so much, because the courts agree with us too — what’s going on in this country.”
    posted by filthy light thief at 10:13 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Zachlipton's message upthread linking Adam Jentleson's thread is this playbook 100%

    Look for actions, not words
    posted by Yowser at 10:13 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Sondheim brought this up in "Assassins:" why do so many politically-motivated assassins go by three names?

    Lee Harvey Oswald
    James Earl Ray
    John Wilkes Booth
    James Alex Fields
    posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:18 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    why do so many politically-motivated assassins go by three names?

    Simple -- to avoid confusion with the other Lee Oswalds, James Rays, John Booths, and Alex Fields, etc.
    posted by Gelatin at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


    They don't "go by" 3 names. The media does that. Is this new knowledge?
    posted by agregoli at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    (and, so not to abuse the edit feature, they don't necessarily go by three names; they are identified by three names in the media for that purpose.)
    posted by Gelatin at 10:22 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    dances_with_sneetches: why do so many politically-motivated assassins go by three names?

    It seems to be a coincidence (Brian Palmer on Slate looked at this in 2011, focusing on assassins)
    posted by filthy light thief at 10:22 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Sessions and the rest of the GOP know that many of the white people who are comfortable with the effects of covert systemic (and acute!) racism get really uncomfortable with overt racism, because they are moral fucking cowards. $10 says there's polling that shows this. Another $10 says that's the only fucking reason they care.

    We need to make every single one of them fucking own it.
    posted by schadenfrau at 10:28 AM on August 14, 2017 [30 favorites]


    was a little annoyed at Terry McAuliffe continuing to talk about how (paraphrased) "aside from the car ramming terrorist attack, the police had done a great job because no one had gone to the hospital and there had been no property damage". I had to stop listening shortly afterwards so I don't know if Deray calls him out for ignoring Deandre Harris, but ...

    McAuliffe has been a better governor than I expected (though I was confident he'd be better than that shitstain he trounced) but his biggest disappointing moments have been cop related. He's stood in the way of police reform measures and there were nowhere near enough votes to override him.
    posted by phearlez at 10:28 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    why do so many politically-motivated assassins go by three names?

    I once made a bot that pairs (fictional) violent crimes with different wines. The rule for making a murderer's name is just 2 first names + 1 last name.
    posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:30 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    John Warnock Hinckley Jr. is one exception to the full name rule, for some reason. I had to look up what his middle name is. /derail
    posted by emelenjr at 10:30 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    What's Sirhan Sirhan's middle name?
    posted by Sys Rq at 10:35 AM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    @alexkotch
    If Stephen Miller wasn't a White House advisor, where would he have been over the weekend?

    ---

    @swin24
    Neo-nazis: purge the soil of filth, Hitler is not bad
    BLM: the state should kill fewer black people
    Idiot pundit: mah gawd theyre the same
    posted by chris24 at 10:36 AM on August 14, 2017 [74 favorites]


    "Bin-Laden determined to strike the US" but with White Nationalists:

    FBI and DHS warned Trump about Alt-Right terrorists just months before the attack in Charlottesville: report
    In a May intelligence bulletin published by Foreign Policy magazine on Monday, DHS and the FBI pointed out that attacks by white supremacists on U.S. soil far outnumbered every other type of terrorist threat.

    The agencies concluded that attacks by white supremacists “likely will continue to pose a threat of lethal violence over the next year.”
    Direct link to report on Scribd.
    posted by Room 641-A at 10:37 AM on August 14, 2017 [57 favorites]


    FBI and DHS warned Trump about Alt-Right terrorists just months before the attack in Charlottesville: report; "In a May intelligence bulletin..."

    And in June, Trump defunded the Countering Violence Extremism program that focused on white terrorist groups. Hmmm...
    posted by chris24 at 10:39 AM on August 14, 2017 [46 favorites]


    So hey, great news! According to Reuters, the Daily Stormer really has left GoDaddy! They're now registered with some place in California. (Twitter link, breaking news)
    posted by maudlin at 10:40 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    FBI and DHS warned Trump about Alt-Right terrorists just months before the attack in Charlottesville: report

    something something something determined to strike in the U.S.
    posted by entropicamericana at 10:40 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Helpful reminder: the ACLU has a free app called Mobile Justice which will take videos you shoot and send them directly to the ACLU,even if the data or phone are "lost."

    Personally I would avoid this app for recording video because the ACLU makes no promises about what cases they'll take and there was is provision for getting the video from them if your recording is damaged/deleted/lost. So if the whole point is to have a capture that you can get to if the cops or nazis snatch your phone then this very likely won't help you; there's no disclosure about how long they retain the videos either, which troubles me somewhat.

    Personally I'd be more inclined to go with something like periscope so I'd have access to my own stuff and so I could have friends who are sitting it out actually monitoring.

    The biggest problem with any of these apps for us iPhone users is that - unless something changed in the upcoming iOS 11, which I think I would have heard about - you can't run them and record with a locked phone. So while you're recording you're vulnerable to having someone snatch your phone while it's unlocked and vulnerable. So if you're at all concerned about the rest of the integrity of your stuff your best choice may simply be to record using the built-in camera app which can run while the phone is locked so miscreants can't get into the rest of your info.
    posted by phearlez at 10:41 AM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]




    FBI and DHS warned Trump about Alt-Right terrorists just months before the attack in Charlottesville: report; "In a May intelligence bulletin..."

    And in June, Trump defunded the Countering Violence Extremism program that focused on white terrorist groups. Hmmm...


    I am not kidding when I say it could also be because they insisted on presenting him program reports with more than one page/no pictures/no use of his name.
    posted by phearlez at 10:43 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Thank goodness the President has finally condemned white supremacy in all its forms. Alright! On to the next news story...

    Fox News: “I am seriously considering a pardon for Sheriff Arpaio,” the president said Sunday, during a conversation with Fox News at his club in Bedminster, N.J. “He has done a lot in the fight against illegal immigration. He’s a great American patriot and I hate to see what has happened to him.”

    ...

    This President's greatest achievement is that after all this time he still maintains the ability to leave me dumbfounded.
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:49 AM on August 14, 2017 [41 favorites]


    So now that we know about the report on the rise of white supremacy, it's official. Charlottesville is Dumb 9/11
    posted by Yowser at 10:52 AM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    I am not kidding when I say it could also be because they insisted on presenting him program reports with more than one page/no pictures/no use of his name.

    so basically a memo worded like this:

    PRESIDENT TRUMP, who is doing a great job by the way, might wish to be aware ... etc etc ...

    (picture of Trump attached, of course)
    posted by philip-random at 10:55 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    i bet we'll see a call for sending these dangerous white people to internment camps by fox news in a jif, and no doubt we'll have random white people rendered to random black sites.

    "TwitterNacht"?
    posted by ZeusHumms at 11:01 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Daily Beast, Brian Patrick Byrne, GoDaddy Deleted Racism Ban After It Was Caught Providing Service to Nazi Site
    Domain registrar GoDaddy removed language from its website that said it prohibited “morally offensive activity” after a Daily Beast report highlighted the company’s policy—while continuing to provide services to neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer.

    The Daily Beast reported in July that GoDaddy was providing neo-Nazi hub The Daily Stormer with a service designed to stop stalkers and harassers, despite writing in bold text on its website, “don't even think about [emphasis theirs] using our service to ... engage in morally offensive activity.”

    However, after the original story was published on July 6, GoDaddy removed the bolded text from the homepage of Domains By Proxy. The Daily Beast has also discovered that GoDaddy removed language from its service’s user agreement that warned customers not to “defame, embarrass, harm, abuse, threaten, or harass third parties,” or do anything “racially, ethnically, or otherwise objectionable.”
    In other words, GoDaddy's response to being informed in July that they were responsible for the domain was to remove this language from their terms, only to pop up after Charlottesville to be all "we're doing the right thing."
    posted by zachlipton at 11:01 AM on August 14, 2017 [59 favorites]


    aside from the car ramming terrorist attack, the police had done a great job because no one had gone to the hospital and there had been no property damage"

    Apart from the stuff with the airplanes, September 11th 2001 was a fairly uneventful day.
    posted by Grangousier at 11:02 AM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    "TwitterNacht"?

    The ever eloquent Charles Pierce has called Friday night "the Citronella Putsch."
    posted by Sophie1 at 11:02 AM on August 14, 2017 [27 favorites]




    Google cancels domain registration for Daily Stormer

    That was fast, maybe an hour or two from beginning to end.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 11:29 AM on August 14, 2017



    Google cancels domain registration for Daily Stormer


    nelsonhaha.gif
    posted by azuresunday at 11:29 AM on August 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


    nelsonhaha.gif

    My first reaction also.
    posted by Sophie1 at 11:32 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Alan Taylor/The Atlantic (In Focus photoblog): Vigils, Marches, and Memorials After Charlottesville. Twenty two photos. If you haven't seen the column before, all the pictures are on the same page.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 11:35 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Google cancels domain registration for Daily Stormer

    Make the fuckers type in an IP address.
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 11:35 AM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    14.88.80.085
    posted by Behemoth at 11:38 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    127.0.0.1
    posted by clawsoon at 11:39 AM on August 14, 2017 [20 favorites]


    "aside from the car ramming terrorist attack, the police had done a great job because no one had gone to the hospital and there had been no property damage"

    I guess Deandre Harris got his head wounds stapled closed on the street?

    I feel like McAuliffe's quote was supposed to be the media line. The white nationalists weren't wearing scary hoods. They didn't burn or smash anything, so the media couldn't swarm over photos of that greatest of all evils: property damage. Yes, the white nationalists would beat the shit out of some counter-protestors (and innocent people), but that can always be blamed on "both sides" and plus they nazis think they look cool doing it. They welcome those pictures being shared because conservatives hate protestors.

    The center would buy it. They will look at white guys with sticks beating black guys and tsk about free speech and civility and both sides. And also, the center will buy "lone wolf" white terrorists killing people over and over. Any number of those can be balanced against James Hodgkinson, or nothing at all.

    If the events were more separate, it would have worked. The ratchet would have been tightened. And people still did try to trot out those lines about extremism on all sides.

    But I think both at the same time was too much, too undeniable that the terrorist act was a nazi act, and Heather Heyer is the kind of victim the center can't ignore. Too many people in the center are waking up to the idea that nazis are real, dangerous, organized.

    (And at the same time, here is the right wing claiming the nazis as guys on their side.)

    Anyway that is how I'm comforting myself, that the driver of this car actually fucked it all up for them, he did the one fucking thing they weren't supposed to do, and set the cause of nazi normalization back years, worse than they were before Trump was elected.
    posted by fleacircus at 11:41 AM on August 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


    I made the mistake of visiting the daily stormer and I can't believe anybody over the age of 12 can support nazism and take themselves seriously.

    Like I know racism exists regardless of Hitler's existence, but he gave it a (constipated) face and organized it into something that can be mistaken for legitimacy by all these racist motherfuckers.

    Fucking Hitler and his whiny, pathetic inferiority complex fueled tantrums presenting plain idiots with an opportunity to feel edgy and special. 80 years and we still have to hear this toxic, entitled, nonsensical, hateful bullshit.

    Hitler's opinions and pronouncements were at best trite and boring as fuck, at worst, head-in-esophagus murderous ranting. But these man babies have quotations of him posted on pictures of his pasty face as if he had been some sort of intellectual luminary.

    It just pisses me off that all these white boys think they are part of some special club, when the whole world knows their dear leader was a fucking loser whose putrid page in history exists just to remind us of the depths to which people can sink to feed their self-delusion.
    posted by Tarumba at 11:42 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Make the fuckers type in an IP address.


    Make it IPV6.
    posted by Devonian at 11:45 AM on August 14, 2017 [26 favorites]


    @BryanCranston
    It felt like @realDonaldTrump read the TelePrompTer message condemning hate groups like a hostage forced to read a statement by his captors.

    ---

    @jpodhoretz
    Usually not a meme guy but this is clever.

    VANILLA ISIS [pic]
    posted by chris24 at 11:45 AM on August 14, 2017 [35 favorites]


    Make it IPV6.

    If the white race has superior intellect this should be no barrier to entry
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 11:51 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    We must secure a 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 for white children
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 11:52 AM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    White People, Ain’t Nothing Funny About White Supremacy, so Now Ain’t the Time for Jokes About It by Natalie Degraffinried in Very Smart Brothas.
    I wish I were so bored with my own unshakable safety that I could focus on the most mundane details of wildly violent shit that doesn’t even affect me. I wish I could giggle and gawk on some keeping-up-with-the-Joneses, “Did you see what Rebecca wore to the country club?”-type shit. I wish making fun of white supremacists took down their threat level for me mentally. . .

    This is the epitome of getting too fucking comfortable—of so deeply believing that you’re the “right” type of white person that you can just shrug and laugh and make a half-assed joke with our deaths looming in the foreground. This posturing is just as useless as your overtures at allyship always are. I know we often point out your silence as an issue, but I urge you not to use snark as a substitute—I suggest this for most situations, but especially when there are white supremacists marching with fucking torches.
    posted by threeturtles at 12:03 PM on August 14, 2017 [41 favorites]


    According to screenshots, the Daily Sturmer is planning to send Nazis to the funeral of Heather Heyer.

    This needs to be signal boosted so it can be prevented.
    posted by Sophie1 at 12:05 PM on August 14, 2017 [33 favorites]


    Godwin says:

    By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with you.
    posted by infini at 12:10 PM on August 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Is Twitter going to act now?
    posted by Room 641-A at 12:10 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Is Twitter going to act now?

    It is to laugh.

    How many stores close down on Black Friday? This is big business for Twitter!
    posted by wenestvedt at 12:16 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    AP: Transcripts: Mother of man accused of driving car into Charlottesville crowd called 911 repeatedly; said he beat her

    [That's the story in its entirety so far]

    Once again, our failure to take domestic violence seriously is a factor in yet another killing.
    posted by zachlipton at 12:24 PM on August 14, 2017 [90 favorites]


    I made the mistake of visiting the daily stormer and I can't believe anybody over the age of 12 can support nazism and take themselves seriously.

    They are mostly adults who take themselves perfectly seriously, and it's a mistake not to take them seriously too. They don't have a disease or a completely inexplicable and comically incoherent worldview. They're not funny or pathetic or irrelevant or powerless. The hatred that motivates their worldview is only a more clearly articulated version of the same thing we are seeing surging up in so many corners of the world now, from homophobes in Russia to gau rakshaks in India to the EDL in Britain. There's no advantage to treating it as a bizarre niche phenomenon, some esoteric culture like furries or worshippers of Severus Snape or whoever. These are just the same old enemies of human rights and liberalism that have been around, sometimes dominant and sometimes defensive, since the idea of universal human rights first got off the ground.

    Yes, the Daily Stormer or Stormfront version is shocking in its crudity and bluntness. But the thing behind all that crudity is really widespread and commonplace and dangerous, even its politer forms. From that perspective, I think some of the "oh my God, literal Nazis!" horror is kind of a mixed blessing. Yes, it's shocking and a good wake up call. But it's not actually all that different from the slow build of dog whistles and casual racism over the dinner table that's been developing for years, and it's not helpful to obscure that connection. It was always going to be literal Nazis at the logical end point of all this.
    posted by Aravis76 at 12:25 PM on August 14, 2017 [47 favorites]


    I don't even... I'm so very pissed that I even unfollowed the person who shared this
    posted by infini at 12:35 PM on August 14, 2017


    According to screenshots, the Daily Sturmer is planning to send Nazis to the funeral of Heather Heyer.

    Boosted on my facebook, and I contacted her employer to alert them (assuming that people there would know detalis about the arrangements and would know who to contact).
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:36 PM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    fyi Laura Loomer works for Rebel Media (Canada's own coughnotnazidontsuemeezracough organization. Weev and her probably coordinated together and think it's REALLY FUNNY to shit disturb.

    (not saying no Nazis will show up. just... something to keep in mind)
    posted by Yowser at 12:45 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    The hatred that motivates their worldview is only a more clearly articulated version of the same thing we are seeing surging up in so many corners of the world now

    People also ought to drop the comforting platitude that hate is "really" fear (or ignorance, or what-have-you), which I've never seen justified by anything but faith in the notion that human beings are all good, and that anything evil about them results from some kind of mistake.
    posted by thelonius at 12:50 PM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


    I wonder if Trump says "Heil me" when he enters a room.

    (borrowed from To Be Or Not To Be)
    posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:50 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    The Post and Courier: Ridgeville man out of a job following photo next to Charlottesville murder suspect
    His political views, as listed on his Facebook page, simply lists: "Zenophobe, Narcissist, Bigot, Misogynist, Racist, Nazi, Ignorant, Right-Winger, Anti-Semite, Islamophobe, Fascist, Dumbass."

    You don't say.
    posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:51 PM on August 14, 2017 [39 favorites]


    Dude's afraid of philosophical paradoxes?
    posted by Faint of Butt at 12:55 PM on August 14, 2017 [19 favorites]


    He's scared of one-hand clappings.
    posted by sukeban at 12:56 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]




    White People, Ain’t Nothing Funny About White Supremacy, so Now Ain’t the Time for Jokes About It

    nothing wrong with laughing at the devil -- just don't make that the extent of your actions.
    posted by philip-random at 1:00 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Also, regarding the Nazi asshole in the 82nd Airborne cap noted in buntix's post: it may not be an ID or a verification, but the 82nd hasn't forgotten what side it's on.
    posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:02 PM on August 14, 2017 [20 favorites]


    Zenophobe

    He's afraid his values will take forever to reach ours.
    posted by Barack Spinoza at 1:03 PM on August 14, 2017 [55 favorites]


    His political views, as listed on his Facebook page, simply lists: "Zenophobe, Narcissist, Bigot, Misogynist, Racist, Nazi, Ignorant, Right-Winger, Anti-Semite, Islamophobe, Fascist, Dumbass."

    So, "deplorable" for short?
    posted by spitbull at 1:07 PM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


    So Columbus is smack dab in the middle of Ohio, about 400 miles from Charlottesville. I'm sure some people were much closer, but reports are that a lot of people drove down from the midwest, so I'm just picking a recognizable, not so far away part of the midwest.

    That's about 13 gallons of gas at 30mpg, which is pretty generous - these dudes tend to be the SUV/Big engine type. Gas is about $2/gallon right now in Ohio, so you're looking at $26 each way being generous, not counting any possible tolls, and with a six-hour drive on either end. Let's call it $30 each way for a couple truck stop coffees.

    A tiki torch is about $4 from home depot. Hell, say you already had the torch.

    Say you pack all your meals, and eat what you were gonna eat anyway, sleep in the truck, and don't spend any other money.

    That's still $60, and at least twelve good waking hours, that a whole bunch of men spent trying to tell the citizens of another state what they can and can't do with their statues. That's nearly a full day's pay at Ohio minimum wage.

    And not only were they able to do that with their time, and spent the money to do it, but they didn't expect any consequences for it, and whined when people pushed back.

    What do you do with this type of asshole? Who would choose to do this with their finite time on earth? $60 and twelve hours could fix someone's roof, or take some kids to the state fair, or treat the in-laws to Pizza Hut. Hell, if you're not feeling generous it's 120 cans of Pabst that you could drink sadly while you whine about the white man's oppression on the internet.

    What do you do with these people?
    posted by aspersioncast at 1:08 PM on August 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


    I'm not surprised at that tweet from the 82nd. Institutional memory is a thing and they have no truck with Nazis.
    posted by Justinian at 1:10 PM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Great exchange spotted on Twitter:

    "If you keep calling people Nazis for months on end, what did you think was going to happen?"

    "If they weren't Nazis, nothing. Feminists have been called 'Nazis' for for decades and haven't waved a swastika flag yet."
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:16 PM on August 14, 2017 [213 favorites]


    "If you keep calling people Nazis for months on end, what did you think was going to happen?"

    One of the questions I've been asked is, "Who decides who is a Nazi", to which my honest reply can only be, "If they're carrying a NAZI FLAG as they march, they're a Nazi..."
    posted by mikelieman at 1:18 PM on August 14, 2017 [55 favorites]


    If the jack boots fit...
    posted by Sophie1 at 1:22 PM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


    "Who decides who is a Nazi"

    If only there were records of Nazi beliefs and that could compared to those of alt-right and fellow travelers! If it steps like a goose, it's probably a Nazi, as my gran used to say.
    posted by GenjiandProust at 1:23 PM on August 14, 2017 [24 favorites]


    Who decides who is a Nazi

    The Nazis?
    posted by aspersioncast at 1:29 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I'm not surprised at that tweet from the 82nd. Institutional memory is a thing and they have no truck with Nazis.

    Of course not -- why use a truck when you've got planes & parachutes?
    posted by tivalasvegas at 1:29 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]



    "Who decides who is a Nazi"


    are they carrying a tiki torch?
    posted by philip-random at 1:30 PM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Gatekeeping is crummy behavior. Even hate groups don't deserve that shit. If a dude aspires to be a Nazi, I don't need Hitler's ghost to turn up and verify the dude is a Nazi. I'm more than willing to grant him that insult in keeping with his behavior.
    posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:32 PM on August 14, 2017 [34 favorites]


    Libby Anne of Patheos discusses White Supremacists and Parents in Denial
    Based on both news reports and pictures of the event, this weekend’s “Unite the Right” rally was made up almost entirely of white men in their 20s and 30s. Every one of these young men has parents. Do they know about their sons’ views? Do they approve of them? Do they feign ignorance? Do they overlook warning signs and convince themselves, like Bloom, that their sons are good people who wouldn’t hurt a fly? [...]

    When a young white man who hears his parents praising Trump is approached by a white supremacist group with indistinguishable rhetoric, is he wrong to conclude that such an association would be met with approval, or at least understanding? The social pressure not to join a white supremacist group weakens and frays. And then, when that same young man spouts white supremacist rhetoric at Thanksgiving or the Fourth of July, are his parents to be blamed for assuming it’s “something to do with Trump”?

    Trump has fundamentally broken our nation’s de facto system for preventing overtly white supremacist organizations from growing beyond the fringe. Mothers like Bloom, who convince themselves that their sons’ white supremacist activities are “something to do with Trump” and thus neither white supremacist nor anything to worry about, are evidence of this reality.
    The lengths white people will go to ignore the fact that we and/or our family members propagate white supremacy is a major problem. I have seen so many white family members excuse racist comments in the interest of not having to confront complicity, while shutting down push back to protect the space as safe for subtle white supremacy.

    We, white people, have to impose negative consequences on each other for expressions and propagation of white supremacy, so people of color don't have to live in fear and can participate in society equally without experiencing cruelty and bigotry from white people. Our government must also explore options and make reparations for slavery.
    posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 1:33 PM on August 14, 2017 [62 favorites]


    Based on both news reports and pictures of the event, this weekend’s “Unite the Right” rally was made up almost entirely of white men in their 20s and 30s. Every one of these young men has parents. Do they know about their sons’ views? Do they approve of them? Do they feign ignorance? Do they overlook warning signs and convince themselves, like Bloom, that their sons are good people who wouldn’t hurt a fly?

    ....Shit, most of the guys at that parade likely got their views from their parents.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:36 PM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


    The lengths white people will go to ignore the fact that we and/or our family members propagate white supremacy is a major problem.

    so are the lengths people will go to find a reason why a grown, mentally competent adult man's actions, beliefs, and crimes must be his mommy's fault. how can anybody possibly blame a 25-year-old's fascism on his parents, but not blame his parents' fascism -- supposing they have any -- on their parents? What is the age at which this becomes obscene and ridiculous?

    What is the age at which a white man becomes responsible?

    I say 18 to 20, but I'm not in charge.
    posted by queenofbithynia at 1:43 PM on August 14, 2017 [23 favorites]


    a white man?

    haha
    hahaaha

    never, apparently
    posted by Old Kentucky Shark at 1:44 PM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Every one of these young men has parents. Do they know about their sons’ views? Do they approve of them? Do they feign ignorance? Do they overlook warning signs and convince themselves, like Bloom, that their sons are good people who wouldn’t hurt a fly?

    Parents can be in serious denial about all kinds of things related to their children.
    posted by Room 641-A at 1:46 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Yeah, pretty sure (we) white males go directly from "just having a little youthful fun" to "old and senile".
    posted by jferg at 1:47 PM on August 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


    If it quacks like a milkshake duck....
    posted by emjaybee at 1:48 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    A milkshake duck situation requires that people admire the duck initially.
    posted by Artw at 1:58 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Baked Alaska probably pepper sprayed himself. None of his entourage got hit and despite them all having cameras no one recorded it happening.
    posted by PenDevil at 2:01 PM on August 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


    also the Tefft family saga is linked on this same damn page! you can read all about how young white men are tender reeds that blow this way and that at the least breath of their families' expectations, except not. that fucker was disowned in stronger terms by his dad than I've ever heard anyone denounce their parents, which is infinitely easier to do and easier to be praised for. did it fix him? it did not. because once they reach the age of majority, Nazis do as they please.

    and the other one, the murderer with the weak worthless mother, maybe she does deserve some of the blame for not getting up out of her wheelchair and putting her son in his place one of the times he was beating her for talking back to him. fair enough. meanwhile, his history teacher says he loved Hitler just so much back in high school. loved him! worshiped him. what did this history teacher with free access to his developing murder mind do about this? oh, nothing. Does that make this his fault? well, "his," so no. Influence is a tricky thing.
    posted by queenofbithynia at 2:02 PM on August 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


    Parents can be in serious denial about all kinds of things related to their children.

    Then fuck those parents. They have more power than anyone else to recognize this shit and do something about it.

    I suspect that it's less "denial", and more "ignore it and hope nothing bad happens".
    posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:04 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Baked Alaska probably pepper sprayed himself.

    and he still whined like a toddler - what a talent!
    posted by pyramid termite at 2:06 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    You're not the only one that thinks Baked Alaska sprayed himself.

    It's right out of the Milo and Lauren Southern playbooks. SWAT your own event. Hire someone to pour water on you and call it urine.
    posted by Yowser at 2:17 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Hire someone to pour water on you and call it urine.

    I'd piss on him for free.
    posted by peeedro at 2:18 PM on August 14, 2017 [16 favorites]


    Charlottesville has some very odd historical resonances.

    A little over 90 years ago, Donald Trump's father was arrested in New York after fascist and KKK sponsored demonstrations turned violent in the Bronx and Queens:
    On Memorial Day 1927, brawls erupted in New York led by sympathizers of the Italian fascist movement and the Ku Klux Klan. In the fascist brawl, which took place in the Bronx, two Italian men were killed by anti-fascists. In Queens, 1,000 white-robed Klansmen marched through the Jamaica neighborhood, eventually spurring an all-out brawl in which seven men were arrested.

    One of those arrested was Fred Trump of 175-24 Devonshire Rd. in Jamaica.

    It's not clear from the context what role Fred Trump played in the brawl. The news article simply notes that seven men were arrested in the "near-riot of the parade," all of whom were represented by the same lawyers. Update: A contemporaneous article from the Daily Star notes that Trump was detained "on a charge of refusing to disperse from a parade when ordered to do so."

    When news of the old report surfaced last year, Donald Trump vehemently denied his father's arrest. "He was never arrested. He has nothing to do with this. This never happened. This is nonsense and it never happened," he said to the Daily Mail. "This never happened. Never took place. He was never arrested, never convicted, never even charged. It's a completely false, ridiculous story. He was never there! It never happened. Never took place."
    posted by jamjam at 2:23 PM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


    I'd piss on him for free.

    That's the President on Line 2 for you right now.
    posted by Quindar Beep at 2:24 PM on August 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


    I bet he'll still make bank on his Indiegogo.
    posted by Artw at 2:24 PM on August 14, 2017


    And you just know he'd never been pepper-sprayed before and was thinking 'how bad can it be, I bet I can take it grar grar' before finding out that he couldn't. So the hurty came as a nasty shock.
    posted by Devonian at 2:24 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    "Who decides who is a Nazi"

    These fuckers always think they're the smartest guys in the room solely because they're white, and that absolutely no one can see through their fantastical word sorcery. I've dealt with these asswipes since grade school, and I'm so tired of it.

    And I'm realizing today that I am traumatized by this weekend's events, where here we have a bunch of people openly insisting that treating my people like shit is their god-given right. Who think they can arrange their words in the "right" order, and no one who isn't "supposed" to know would be able to figure out their true intentions, because they're just so much goddamned smarter than everyone else. And the so-called president of my country's all, "A nod's as good as a wink, boys!" White people, angry that we're fighting back, who actually think we're supposed to take their shit and happily let them kill us! WHO THE FUCK ARE THEY KIDDING?!?

    It's too much like what I grew up with, both in my "home" with my authoritarian and violent guardian (there was a period where I was supposed to say "thank you" and hug her after whippings), and in the city I lived in, where white people were only one step above forcing us off the pavement if we crossed their paths, and where they still loathe their black residents to this day. I'm both scared and have 40+ years' worth of rage for people like Fields and Cvjetanovic; enough that if they were in my face, I'd rip these boys' throats out with my bare hands. But that would make me as bad as they are, even if I have actual reason to feel that way, instead of their PHONY outrage at their FAKE oppression.

    I'm just, AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRGGUHHHHHH! COME AT ME! I WISH A MUTHAFUCKA WOULD! And even if I did die, I would take 10 of them with me.

    /rant
    posted by droplet at 2:27 PM on August 14, 2017 [68 favorites]


    It's hard to believe that the guy whose big political break was accusing the first black president of being part of a global conspiracy to deny his true birthplace in Africa is a bit racist but here we are
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:27 PM on August 14, 2017 [83 favorites]


    But that would make me as bad as they are

    In the case of Fields, at least – you know, the guy who mowed his car through a street full of people and killed a woman – no, it really wouldn't.

    There comes a point where responding to violence with violence is not only justifiable, but necessary. We can debate exactly where that point lies, and when it's strategically wise to go there – but we cannot turn the other cheek forever.
    posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:32 PM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


    gandhi turned the other cheek forever. hanh, too. i dunno the right answer, but armed antifa sure sounds like a bad idea. once trump declares an emergency, we're an order of magnitude deeper in the shit.
    posted by j_curiouser at 2:55 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Also, could use some help framing something in a way designed to be productive, but maybe I just don't care? I don't know. I have gut feelings but no expertise to respond to stupid stuff like this. My stepfather is a borderline abusive nutcase who is posting a bunch of pro-confederacy stuff on Facebook, stuff by Judge Napolitano, Michael Black, and Donald Livingston. Maybe I should just cut him out like the cancer he is, but I still feel obligated to push back on such blatantly toxic bullshit. Any suggestions of counter reading or whatever? Not that it'll make any difference, they just don't care. He's not even from the South, his family wasn't even in this country when the war was fought! Why are people so stupid? I'm having a crisis of humanity over here.
    posted by cui bono at 2:57 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Gandhi's non-violence was effective in India for a bunch of reasons, some to do with British media and British leftists and some to do with the threat to the British government from less peaceable Indian freedom fighters. His proposed strategy for dealing with Hitler - don't resist, turn the other cheek - would have been a terrible idea and fortunately no one in power took it seriously. Non-violence is the ideal solution, when it can work, but it doesn't always work.
    posted by Aravis76 at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2017 [33 favorites]


    My opposition to Nazi-punching is not a direct moral opposition, because Nazis deserve to be punched. Instead it is a pragmatic opposition that sees the benefits of such violence at this time as minimal compared to the potentially huge disadvantages to the anti-Nazi cause. The right-wing is based on the myth of unfair white victimhood, primarily white male victimhood. I want to deny the right-wing any martyrs who could grow their movement and their respectability. I want Nazis to be exposed based on their own moral turpitude, belittled, and politically sidelined.

    Right-wing ideology is violent at its core, and it is obvious that right-wing individuals have a far greater propensity for violence against non-threatening people. The murderous Nazi who drove his car into pedestrians has undermined his ideological cause. But it is not impossible that the next murderous person will be more like the shooter at the Congressional baseball match; a hanger-on to a left-wing cause who convinces himself that murder is justified in the current circumstances. Imagine how different the national debate would be were that the case in Charlottesville. I don't want to see that happen. While I sympathize with the desire to take revenge on evil men, I take a pragmatic opposition to counterproductive violence and any extreme rhetoric liable to encourage it. If that pragmatic calculus someday changes, we will be close to civil war. For today, I have hope that Trumpism can best be defeated through non-violent means.
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:06 PM on August 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


    Texas A&M has cancelled the white supremacist rally scheduled for 9/11 on campus.

    "You don't get to bring your hate here" is a message I"m happy to see more colleges take up.
    posted by emjaybee at 3:08 PM on August 14, 2017 [74 favorites]


    We didn't stand up as a nation to voraciously support POC when they were raising the alarm in watts, in 1992, in ferguson, after a black man was dragged in jasper Texas nor after Tamir Rice was murdered nor after how many other incidents am I omitting. If not fucking now, when? How far down this road do we wanna go before believe that we are installing white supremacist fascism in this country. PEOPLE ARE WAVING FUCKING NAZI FLAGS and we're still treating this like a debate.

    Fascism comes silently in the night and people like me will just vanish. Straight white people will continue to have their jobs and continue to equivocate and debate how it can't really be that bad. It's that bad people. It's that bad.
    posted by Annika Cicada at 3:09 PM on August 14, 2017 [115 favorites]


    Out of curiosity, could Trump be sued by the family of Heather Heyer for wrongful death or something similar, given that he has been inciting violence against protesters and the left in general (including saying he would pay legal bills for people)?

    Also, could a state that passed one of those it's-okay-for-drivers-to hit-protesters bills also be sued if a driver then does just that and kills someone?
    posted by triggerfinger at 3:47 PM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Hey kids! Want to hold a Nazi rally, but too inept to make your own torches? Try the new Swastikitm. It's the alt-light for the alt-right!
    posted by uosuaq at 3:47 PM on August 14, 2017 [20 favorites]


    Bryan Cranston isn't the only one who thought it was insincere.

    @SchreckReports (Politico)
    Richard Spencer calls Trumps statement today "nonsense" and "silliness" "I just don't take him seriously...it sounded so hollow"

    @hunterw (Yahoo News)
    Daily Stormer says Trump's statement was forced by the "whining Jew media" and Trump "only disavowed us at the point of a Jewish weapon."
    posted by chris24 at 3:48 PM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Hire someone to pour water on you and call it urine.

    I'd piss on him for free.
    posted by peeedro at 5:18 PM on August 14 [8 favorites +] [!]


    Two answers:

    (a) Eponysterical.
    (b) So would I, unless he was on fire.
    posted by CommonSense at 3:54 PM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Out of curiosity, could Trump be sued by the family of Heather Heyer for wrongful death or something similar, given that he has been inciting violence against protesters and the left in general (including saying he would pay legal bills for people)?

    The President is immune from federal civil lawsuits.
    posted by Justinian at 3:54 PM on August 14, 2017


    Daily Stormer says Trump's statement was forced by the "whining Jew media" and Trump "only disavowed us at the point of a Jewish weapon."
    I wouldn't use the same words, but I don't disagree that the statement was forced and that he doesn't actually disavow Nazism. I cannot believe I agree with them, but this is the world now I guess.
    posted by jeather at 3:57 PM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    I think it's up to us to just label it as terrorism here and on social media, and to call Congressional delegations to encourage them to label the car ramming as terrorism, and to identify the 'alt-right' as white supremacists, neo-Nazis, and terrorists. In times of crisis and change, we look to leaders, but President Pants-On-Fire is not providing leadership. I consider this to be the the moment it became undeniably clear that his presidency has failed. His comments today did not change my mind.
    posted by theora55 at 3:58 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    The President is immune from federal civil lawsuits.

    For Official acts. His incitement to riot predates his election, so.... I'd love to read the US Supreme Court's ruling...
    posted by mikelieman at 4:00 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    That would get tossed so fast your head would spin. An incitement to riot from a year ago which bore fruit now? Nah.
    posted by Justinian at 4:02 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    >forced by the "whining Jew media" and Trump "only disavowed us at the point of a Jewish weapon."

    So the Jew media is simultaneously whining and threatening? How's that work? And how'd they 'force' him to do it? I thought he was a Straight Shooter Who Speaks His Mind No Matter The Consequences? Are they saying that the President is a... a... (lowers voice to whisper) a cuck?
    posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:04 PM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Not to diminish Heather Heyer's murder in any way but I'm not seeing very much about other people violently attacked by the Nazi bastards. I've seen the photos of the black man being beaten and the older white woman (church elder?) with a gash in her forehead. Has there been any attempt to publicize how violent the Nazis were when they scattered into groups after their tiki procession?

    The only other story I heard was secondhand. A person on twitter saying an antifa told her that Nazis had doused a woman in a wheelchair with kerosene and had been trying to light her on fire when the antifa swarmed in and hustled her out of danger. Could be tall tales but if it is true, how horrific and terrifying.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:07 PM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Kelly Hayes:
    From an actual resident of Charlottesville:

    "There seems to be a perception from people outside of Charlottesville that what is going on here is two opposing groups coming to town and fighting some ideological battle that has gotten messy. That is not what is happening here. What is happening here is that several hate groups from the extreme right have come together under the "unite the right" banner here in our town and basically started acting as terrorists. This may seem like an exaggeration but it's not.

    A church service was held over because they had surrounded the building and police had to disperse them. People had to be escorted to their cars. My friend was there with her daughter. Everywhere they meet, businesses close. We had drive by shootings yesterday from a van marked kkk.

    A car plowed into a huge group of people. I'm sure you saw that on the newsfeeds. What you probably didn't see is that some of those people were on their way back from helping to repel a white supremacist march to predominately black housing development a few blocks away where they were attempting home invasions. I guess they were unfamiliar with the neighborhood. The residents repelled that one before antifa got there but there is some video of the alt-right folks getting run off on the daily progress twitter feed, if you're interested.

    So, basically, what I'd like you to understand is, this IS NOT two side egging eachother on to unavoidable violence for more attention. This is one side of terrorists declaring that they can and will hold a town hostage (they've been saying it for over a month now, actually) and the town responding to that threat. The car that killed and injured people yesterday? Ohio tags. The medic tents (which treated both sides... turns out the alt right erst didn’t bring any medics. Guess they planned on doing all the injuring), water bottles, snacks, shade tents (all volunteer, donations, none shut down by police... all manned by that radical left you keep hearing about) yeah, we all live here. I saw a lot of people I knew yesterday, none of them were speaking for unite the right. None of them were escalating violence, most of them were offering some kind of aid and defending."
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 4:10 PM on August 14, 2017 [145 favorites]


    Sing Or Swim: So the Jew media is simultaneously whining and threatening? How's that work?

    There's a great quote upthread on this. "Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak..."
    posted by clawsoon at 4:11 PM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Of course now the fuckin' ACLU (which, I remind you, partnered with Y Combinator, which has someone on their board who hates women and democracy) will defend these assholes, won't they?
    posted by Yowser at 4:18 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Interview: How Corey Long Fought White Supremacy With Fire:
    “I went out to voice my opinion. To have my freedom of speech. Just like the racist Nazis who took over my town,” Long said in an interview with The Root.

    But what started out as a peaceful protest eventually turned violent. And Long says the cops stood around and did nothing.

    “At first it was peaceful protest,” Long said softly as he spoke. “Until someone pointed a gun at my head. Then the same person pointed it at my foot and shot the ground.”

    Long said the only weapon he had was a can of spray paint that a white supremacist threw at him earlier, so he took a lighter to the spray paint and turned it into a flame thrower. And a photographer snapped the photo.

    But inside of every photograph there’s an untold story. If you look closely at Long’s picture, there’s an elderly white man standing in between Long and his friend. The unknown man was part of the counterprotests too, but was afraid, and Long and his friends were trying to protect him. Even though, Long says, those who were paid to protect the residents of Charlottesville were doing just the opposite.

    “The cops were protecting the Nazis, instead of the people who live in the city,” Long said. “The cops basically just stood in their line and looked at the chaos. The cops were not protecting the people of Charlottesville. They were protecting the outsiders.”
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 4:19 PM on August 14, 2017 [70 favorites]






    There is a "unity against racism" rally planned in Salt Lake City tonight, I'm trying to decide if it would be constructive to attend. I'd like to show solidarity, but such rallies here tend to be overtly religious due to the Mormon saturation, especially in the government. These are the same Mormons whose scriptures claim that dark skin is mark of evil ancestry, in contrast to the righteous "white and delightsome" people. Observing the cognitive dissonance could cause dangerous vertigo.

    Has anyone else here attended a local rally, and if so, how was it?
    posted by Hot Pastrami! at 4:22 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Thank you Joseph Gurl. This is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be amplified so that people understand it wasn't a mere clash between the violent left & the violent right.

    We had drive by shootings yesterday from a van marked kkk.


    Whoa
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:23 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    "...attempting home invasions."

    !!!!!!


    I hope the person who shared this with Kelly Hayes can share this story with, I don't know, The Guardian? WaPo? The world needs to know this. Surely there's some mainstream outlet that isn't tainted by equivocation in order to maintain their access to the White House that can blast this far and wide.
    posted by droplet at 4:25 PM on August 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


    This is from May, but it looks like there have been several lawsuits against Trump for inciting violence: Trump's violent campaign rallies come back to haunt him

    More at Lawfare.
    posted by triggerfinger at 4:28 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I had heard something similar about the attempt to go attack the neighborhood, in an earlier story about the car attack. I think everything is getting subsumed by that, and a lot of these stories aren't being told yet. It's very frustrating, both from the desire to have the "not a white woman" stories told and to be able to have the stupid equivocators shut up by being able to point to very concrete evidence that there weren't in fact any individuals on the other side provoking fights because they were too busy being under siege. Obviously, some of them would not shut up, but I think we actually get to call them Nazis at that point, right?
    posted by cui bono at 4:32 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    I just had a weird split-second daydream in which all the US commercial webhosting companies refused to host white supremacist websites due to public pressure, and so those sites ended up being hosted by a US government webhosting service that can't refuse them due to the first amendment.
    posted by nnethercote at 4:32 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Some protesters have managed to take down a confederate monument in Durham County, NC.

    The video of it coming down is amazing.
    posted by zachlipton at 4:34 PM on August 14, 2017 [76 favorites]


    Does anyone know if Trump will be forced to pass by some of the protesters to get to Trump Tower? I really want him to see all the NY Hates You signs.
    posted by Room 641-A at 4:35 PM on August 14, 2017


    Of course now the fuckin' ACLU (which, I remind you, partnered with Y Combinator, which has someone on their board who hates women and democracy) will defend these assholes, won't they?
    ACLU Statement on Charlottesville Violence and Demonstrations
    August 12, 2017

    The following is a statement from the American Civil Liberties Union on the violence and demonstrations in Charlottesville, Virginia:

    “We condemn the voices of white supremacy heard in Charlottesville today, and all violence. Our hearts are with those killed and injured.

    “Participants like KKK leader David Duke made it clear why white supremacists took to the streets of Charlottesville — they applaud President Trump’s policies and wish to intimidate Americans who are working for equality and liberty in the United States. We, like counter-protesters & others around our country, won't be intimidated. We work daily to fight systems & policies of white supremacy.

    “The First Amendment is a critical part of our democracy, and it protects vile, hateful, and ignorant speech. For this reason, the ACLU of Virginia defended the white supremacists’ right to march. But we will not be silent in the face of white supremacy. Those who do stand silent enable it. That includes our president.”
    posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:37 PM on August 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


    I think it is the Confederate War Memorial, a statue of a soldier dedicated to "the boys who wore the grey." Erected in 1924 presumably by the Daughters of the Confederacy. There are about 120 Civil War memorials across our state. They need to all be torn down.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:38 PM on August 14, 2017 [21 favorites]


    I can't believe they did it! I can't believe the cops didn't stop them! I can't believe it crumbled like a paper bag! Amazing!
    posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:39 PM on August 14, 2017 [29 favorites]


    I can't believe it crumbled like a paper bag!

    very accurate in that respect
    posted by entropicamericana at 4:40 PM on August 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


    There are about 120 Civil War memorials across our state. They need to all be torn down.

    Hear, hear. I'd love to see Silent Sam on the UNC-CH campus go. I'm a 1996 graduate, and It amazes me that I never once heard a single peep in my years there about how maybe that statue is inappropriate. What a difference 21 years makes.
    posted by CommonSense at 4:40 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I love the guy who barely stops strumming to ax-kick the fallen statue.
    posted by BS Artisan at 4:44 PM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


    I'm talking about Texas A&M
    posted by Yowser at 4:45 PM on August 14, 2017


    From where I stand as a Canadian, the ACLU is an enabler of hate speech. But you do you.
    posted by Yowser at 4:45 PM on August 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


    I hope to see many more of the statues which inappropriately memorialize the Confederate blight torn down. It is my opinion that We the People need not wait for permission to rip these down. Gave me chills watching it slam into the ground.
    posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 4:46 PM on August 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


    That video is glorious. More like that please.
    posted by JDHarper at 4:46 PM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    From where I stand as a Canadian, the ACLU is an enabler of hate speech. But you do you.

    The Eh-CLU meeting is two doors down, friend.
    posted by Barack Spinoza at 4:57 PM on August 14, 2017 [21 favorites]




    Once again, our failure to take domestic violence seriously is a factor in yet another killing.

    He was also kicked out of Army Basic Training.

    That is another thing that should be tracked. These people that join the military but then get kicked out in their first year; they want all the trappings of the military, but none of the following rules part. They invariably brag about their "time in the military" afterwards, too.
    posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 4:59 PM on August 14, 2017 [30 favorites]


    This is from May, but it looks like there have been several lawsuits against Trump for inciting violence: Trump's violent campaign rallies come back to haunt him

    Yeah, candidate Trump certainly could be and was sued for actions he took when he was a candidate. President Trump can't be federally sued for actions taken while President, though, like I said. And suing President Trump over Charlottesville because of his speeches from a year ago wouldn't fly.
    posted by Justinian at 5:00 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I can't believe it crumbled like a paper bag!

    It was a statue of Augustus M. "Paper Bag" Jackson.
    posted by condour75 at 5:00 PM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Ben Jealous (former NAACP chief, current Maryland gubernatorial candidate):
    Let's take down monuments that celebrate people who placed themselves firmly on the worst side of American history. #Charlottesville
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:00 PM on August 14, 2017 [24 favorites]


    That's a shame what happened to that statue. A real shame. It would totally suck if that happened to all of them. Totally suck.
    posted by Justinian at 5:02 PM on August 14, 2017 [24 favorites]


    If you weren't aware (and I wasn't), that Durham action is particularly sweet because ex-governor and all around GOP asshole Pat McCrory signed a bill into law in 2015 sent to him by the illegally gerrymandered legislature that makes "historical monuments and memorials" extremely difficult for local governments to remove.
    posted by deludingmyself at 5:03 PM on August 14, 2017 [33 favorites]


    The people who took down the statue in Durham are gonna need a legal defense fund. Everyone keep a look out for a link, and let's all try and chip in when we find it.
    posted by duffell at 5:05 PM on August 14, 2017 [18 favorites]


    I made this comment in this thread (about the Portland stuff>. In it I talked about my time in going to protests as what to me was the Black Bloc.

    Today, we finally have stories like this link to Cornel West that Joseph Gurl posted.

    This is what I'm talking about. This was the Black Bloc I knew.

    In that post I also talked about my confrontation with a white supremacist. That confrontation happened in Charlottesville. I'll leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions, but what I said about the cops and the system in that town are evident in the complaints by many, many people who were there on the ground. Even the statements about how "there was not property damage" is so fucking telling about how fucked up the system is.

    But at least today I get to see the stories of heroic acts.
    posted by daq at 5:07 PM on August 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


    Remember when the GOP and right-wingers were celebrating that video of Iraqis pulling down a statue of Saddam Hussein? Let's keep that in mind when they start crying. The confederates are at least as bad as Saddam Hussein.
    posted by Justinian at 5:07 PM on August 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


    Current status: texting my folks in NC not quite asking them to go tear down some Confederate statues, but wouldn't be sad if they got inspired. You're retired, Dad, you need a hobby!
    posted by deludingmyself at 5:08 PM on August 14, 2017 [29 favorites]


    I'm about 4 blocks away from a plethora of civil war monuments at the capitol bldg in Raleigh. I'm glad to see it come down in Durham. Love to see it come down in Raleigh, but I don't have the balls, you guys, I'm sorry.
    posted by yoga at 5:13 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    My thoughts on seeing that statue topple down: maybe someday the Civil War will finally end. When all these statues get the same treatment, when we dismantle every last remaining vestige of Jim Crow, when we address and redress the still rippling impacts of slavery.
    posted by yasaman at 5:13 PM on August 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


    So proud of my fellow NC patriots in Durham tonight. Hopefully Silent Sam is next.
    posted by Token Meme at 5:20 PM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    yoga; its easy to talk big from 2000 miles away, it's different when you'd be the one risking fines or vandalism charges! Don't feel bad!
    posted by Justinian at 5:20 PM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


    In addition to denouncing the KkK,. Neo-nazis, etc, I'd like to hear more specific condemnation of anti-Semitism.
    posted by Room 641-A at 5:22 PM on August 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


    So, in a collision of this thread and the other non-POTUS45 thread-of-ugh, James Damore's little MRA alt-right fan club, along with fucking Infowars, have decided to throw an in-person hissy fit at our local Google office on Saturday (when few Googlers will be there, but I think we all know that is not the point). What I had previously dismissed as likely to be about 5 dudes off reddit hanging around on a random sidewalk seems to be turning into Oh Shit Are The Nazis Coming Here?

    They have not requested a permit, per a statement just released by the mayor's office, but I get the impression that if they apply for one, they'll get it. Counter-protests are being organized. Our local Google office is in a gentrified urban area that borders many Black communities. (But the building itself is in a New Urbanist "public square" looking area that actually ain't public at all--I'm not sure if they know that.) I'm terrified. I'm planning on counter-protesting, but I honestly don't know what a win looks like here. Just making sure no one gets beat? Run over? Shot?

    (Also it feels super weird to be protesting people protesting Google. 2017, man.)
    posted by soren_lorensen at 5:33 PM on August 14, 2017 [21 favorites]


    From where I stand as a Canadian, the ACLU is an enabler of hate speech. But you do you.

    Luckily that means your opinion on the subject of American speech litigation is essentially worthless, but please, keep coming around telling us how fucked things are and dumping on the victims of Trumpism as an outsider, because that's definitely helping.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 5:33 PM on August 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


    its easy to talk big from 2000 miles away, it's different when you'd be the one risking fines or vandalism charges! Don't feel bad!

    Exactly. I feel bad egging my father on, and he's been arrested significantly more times than my zero.

    On the other hand, I'm totally bugging him to walk back down to the cemetery down the block and replace the rebel flag with a white pillow case as many times as necessary right now so.
    posted by deludingmyself at 5:34 PM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


    I'mma donate extra to the ACLU every time somebody craps on them.
    posted by Justinian at 5:35 PM on August 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


    (Though on the up side, the house I pass every day on my way to work with the weirdest flag display ever--a US flag, a Union Jack, and a Confederate flag) seems to have removed the Confederate flag. Better late than never to stop displaying white supremacist regalia, I guess? )
    posted by soren_lorensen at 5:37 PM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    The ACLU needs to examine itself a little harder.
    posted by Annika Cicada at 5:38 PM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    They sprayed cooking oil on the damn monument in Durham to keep people from tearing it down.
    posted by yoga at 5:39 PM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    In addition to denouncing the KkK,. Neo-nazis, etc, I'd like to hear more specific condemnation of anti-Semitism.

    Tell that to the "March for Racial Justice" in DC, which they're holding on Yom Kippur (it is the anniversary of the Elaine Massacre in Elaine, Arkansas; the next day would also be the anniversary, it lasted two days). Their website calls out how white supremacists are marching and "terrorizing communities of color, Muslim, and Jewish communities," doesn't mention anti-Semitism, and they're holding the march on the one day of the year when Jews with any religious attachment at all are least able to attend. And they blow anyone off on Facebook who points this out.

    Have whatever march you want, but don't claim you're sticking up for Jewish communities when you schedule the thing on Yom Kippur and don't mention anti-Semitism.
    posted by zachlipton at 5:40 PM on August 14, 2017 [29 favorites]


    They sprayed cooking oil on the damn monument in Durham to keep people from tearing it down.

    that was slick wasn't it? maybe they just sprayed it to keep it from sticking around ...
    posted by pyramid termite at 5:46 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    From where I stand as a Canadian, the ACLU is an enabler of hate speech. But you do you.

    I don't much agree but at the same time I'm not really understanding all the hostility to your expressing your opinion. I mean, we Americans feel free to pontificate on the values of other nations all the time. And to treat our most enlightened progressive 2017 principles as the instant default standard for everyone in every nation and at all points in time. I very much welcome seeing how our "rights" look from the viewpoint of outsiders.
    posted by xigxag at 5:46 PM on August 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


    National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo, is not in a joking mood: Donald Trump’s despicable words
    “We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides. On many sides,” he said Saturday.

    On many sides.

    It is important when you consider the situation of a man whose face has been crushed by a boot to wonder if any damage might have been done to the boot.

    One man’s life has been threatened, but on the other hand, another man’s property has been threatened. (Where have I heard this before? What is this park we are standing in, again?) You must consider and weigh these two things against one another. The North showed considerable aggression against the South, you could say.

    This is not good enough. At what point can we stop giving people the benefit of the doubt? “Gotta Hear Both Sides” is carved over the entrance to Hell. How long must we continue to hear from idiots who are wrong? I don’t want to hear debate unless there is something legitimately to be debated, and people’s rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not among those things. They are self-evident, or used to seem so.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:47 PM on August 14, 2017 [87 favorites]


    Tell that to the "March for Racial Justice" in DC, which they're holding on Yom Kippur

    Sandy Koufax weeps.
    posted by Room 641-A at 5:48 PM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Well the profanity could get them in trouble with the FCC. Our wonderful First Amendment covers calling for genocide against Jews, but not saying "fuck" on the air. Don't you just feel free?

    The FCC doesn't regulate profanity on cable television. (or on the internet) So, yeah, I do feel fucking free.
    posted by Guy Smiley at 5:50 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]



    If you weren't aware (and I wasn't), that Durham action is particularly sweet because ex-governor and all around GOP asshole Pat McCrory signed a bill into law in 2015 sent to him by the illegally gerrymandered legislature that makes "historical monuments and memorials" extremely difficult for local governments to remove.

    posted by deludingmyself at 8:03 PM on August 14

    Because of course the racist fucks from the rural areas vote GOP. So while the cities: Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Charlotte, & Asheville are all Blue they are controlled by the GOP General Assembly. From time to time the cities get it in their heads to do something progressive like pass legislation allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their choice and the fucking racist rednecks decide to pass a state law that says you can't.

    120 119 Civil War Statues and monuments in NC-- most of them erected in the 1920's by the Daughters of the Confederacy to make sure everybody kept those sweet little Boys in Grey in their hearts and minds. We don't need them to remember the Civil War, trust me!
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:51 PM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Holy SHIT that Petri column.
    Of course they gathered with torches, because the only liberty they have lost is the liberty to gather with torches and decide whose house to visit with terror. That is the right that is denied them: the right to other people’s possessions, the right to be the only person in the room, the right to be the only person that the world is made for. (These are not rights. They are wrongs.) You are sad because your toys have been taken, but they were never toys to begin with. They were people. It is the ending of the fairy tale; because you were a beast, you did not see that the things around you were people and not objects that existed purely for your pleasure. You should not weep that the curse is broken and you can see that your footstool was a human being.

    But to rejoice in that discovery you have to stop being a beast first, and they have not. Why would they? Trump promises to turn the world back and bring the curse again. That is implicit in his every speech, a dog whistle strong enough that every dog in America is deaf and in constant pain.
    posted by theodolite at 5:55 PM on August 14, 2017 [140 favorites]


    They sprayed cooking oil on the damn monument in Durham to keep people from tearing it down.

    Right, that's why they were lubing the racist fetish object.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 5:57 PM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    So, I just posted the articles of secession of some of the southern states to my stepfather's page. Might be the end of my relationship with my mother because, you know, abusive asshole. Fuck this year.
    posted by cui bono at 6:00 PM on August 14, 2017 [16 favorites]


    A blessed Atlantan soul has reported the Confederate monument in Decatur to the city as "trash."👍 There's now a petition for removal that I hope works!
    posted by nicebookrack at 6:01 PM on August 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


    that Durham action is particularly sweet because ex-governor and all around GOP asshole Pat McCrory signed a bill into law in 2015 sent to him by the illegally gerrymandered legislature

    I have no problem reminding the legislature that if they fuck about with the mechanisms of law, they are de-legitimising themselves, and that they serve at our pleasure.
    posted by Devonian at 6:02 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Because of course the racist fucks from the rural areas vote GOP. So while the cities: Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Charlotte, & Asheville are all Blue they are controlled by the GOP General Assembly. From time to time the cities get it in their heads to do something progressive like pass legislation allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their choice and the fucking racist rednecks decide to pass a state law that says you can't.

    We have the same problem in Arizona. I suspect it's the case in many red states.
    posted by Superplin at 6:09 PM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


    I'm confused about something with James Fields Jr (who drove into the crowd and killed Heather Heyer). The AP story says this about his background:
    The records from the Florence Police Department in Kentucky show the man's mother had called police in 2011. Fields' mother, Samantha Bloom, told police he stood behind her wielding a 12-inch knife. Bloom is disabled and uses a wheelchair.

    In another incident in 2010, Bloom said that Fields smacked her in the head and locked her in the bathroom after she told him to stop playing video games. Bloom told officers Fields was on medication to control his temper.
    But it also says this:
    As a senior, Fields wanted become a tank commander in the Army. Weimer, a former officer in the Ohio National Guard, guided him through the process of applying, he said, believing that the military would expose Fields to people of different races and backgrounds and help dispel his white supremacist views. But Fields was ultimately turned down, which was a big blow, Weimer said. Weimer said he lost contact with Fields after he graduated and was surprised to hear reports that Fields had enlisted in the Army.

    Army spokeswoman Lt. Col. Jennifer Johnson said Fields reported for basic military training in August 2015, but was released from active duty four months later "due to a failure to meet training standards."
    I suppose it depends on the rest of ones record and such, but you can threaten your disabled mother with a knife or lock her in the bathroom as a teenager and ship off to join the Army a few years later?
    posted by zachlipton at 6:13 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    The Boston Holocaust memorial was vandalized today for the second time this summer. It shouldn't be a brave thing to wear a visible Star of David necklace in Boston (or anywhere else in the US), but it's starting to feel like it.
    posted by ChuraChura at 6:14 PM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Neo-Nazis Slowly Realize This Small Town Totally Punked Them:
    In preparation for an upcoming neo-Nazi march in the small Bavarian town of Wunsiedel, local residents decided to fight back in a hilariously perfect way: by sponsoring each of the 250 fascist participants. According to Heeb Magazine, "For every metre they walked, €10 went to a programme called EXIT Deutschland, which helps people escape extremist groups."

    The anti-semitic walkers didn't figure out the town's scheme until they had already started their march, and by that time, it was too late to turn back. The end result? The neo-Nazis raised more than $12,000 to fund programs to put an end to neo-Nazis.
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:16 PM on August 14, 2017 [94 favorites]


    Of course you can. You never heard that, the military relaxing their standards? It happened literally decades ago.
    posted by agregoli at 6:16 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I suppose it depends on the rest of ones record and such, but you can threaten your disabled mother with a knife or lock her in the bathroom as a teenager and ship off to join the Army a few years later?

    Not enough information, Army is mostly looking at a criminal record, and if he was never charged, they might not have known. Also, "failure to meet training standards" I'm pretty sure is the catch-all discharge from basic, it could've been he couldn't pass the PT test, or he got to basic and started calling all the black cadets the N-word.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 6:19 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Fields sounds so much like Richard Poplawski, the white supremacist fuck that committed a mass shooting of police in my neighborhood a decade ago. He was abusive to his mom, who he lived with, shipped off to the military only to get kicked out before finishing boot camp for being a colossal asshole. The domestic dispute 911 call that led to his ambush of cops was placed by his mom. Which, like, tl;dr but none of this is new, in case we needed a reminder.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 6:21 PM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


    The Boston Holocaust memorial was vandalized today for the second time this summer.

    Suspect is 17 and from Malden (a Boston suburb). Two bystanders grabbed him and held him for police.
    posted by adamg at 6:24 PM on August 14, 2017 [29 favorites]


    Fields was only in the army for four months. That's not even enough time to make through basic training.
    posted by rdr at 6:25 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Malden, figures. Yay for those bystanders.
    posted by spitbull at 6:26 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Chats of #UniteTheRight Charlottesville Organizers Exposed on Discord App
    On the Discord server, far-right militants also discussed bringing more guns to their next rally, blamed the local police and government for being “communist”, discussed doxing anti-fascist protesters they’re targeting, stated they see recent events as the beginning of civil war they want to start, and speculated how if Lauren Southern showed up they would fight amongst each other to claim her as their “war bride”.

    They're openly discussing more car attacks and using guns at the next rally. Should be prima facie evidence of intent to riot and no further permits should be granted, anywhere. This is not free speech, it's incitement. There's a long line of cases that says incitement to violence is not protected under the first amendment.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 6:35 PM on August 14, 2017 [88 favorites]



    Whenever something really horrible or scary happens, or in an emergency, my emotions go flat. Not numb just even and cool. I call it my robot mode. I've experienced this enough to know that at some point within the few days after something will trigger them. Never know what exactly. It can be anything. I'm used to it enough to expect it but what does it is always a surprise.

    This one was the video of the statue being pulled down. Been crying for 10 mins. I hope this becomes of thing because it's very powerful.
    posted by Jalliah at 6:40 PM on August 14, 2017 [21 favorites]


    I live near downtown Durham and drove past the courthouse where this all just happened. Unfortunately it was already over and getting dark by the time I heard what went down, but seeing the empty pedestal surrounded with jubilant people of all colors, and the ring of nonviolent police looking on, was exactly the experience I needed after this horrible fucking week. The boyfriend and I went to Cook-out and got milkshakes to celebrate.
    posted by azuresunday at 6:44 PM on August 14, 2017 [43 favorites]


    I keep trying and failing to imagine a single timeline where the CSA would've even had a single statue of Lincoln to knock down in the first place.


    Knock their shit down. No apologies.
    posted by Barack Spinoza at 6:49 PM on August 14, 2017 [18 favorites]


    When it comes to de-confederating Southern parks, we know the dogs are going to keep barking, so it's vital to make sure the caravan moves on.
    posted by ocschwar at 6:52 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I guess we're going to have to go with #FightTheRight as our rallying cry now.
    posted by waitangi at 6:54 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    i wonder if hbo still thinks it's a good idea to work on their neo-nazi wet dream of a show by two white boys who seem to adore using rape as a plot point?

    @jelani9 (Jelani Cobb, the New Yorker)
    Do you understand why we don't want an "alternate" history of the Confederacy @HBO? The first one hasn't been defeated yet. #charlottesville
    posted by chris24 at 6:57 PM on August 14, 2017 [77 favorites]


    Bunch of nice white ladies on FB clutching pearls over how tearing down the statue isn't "the way" and we shouldn't have an "eye for an eye" as if a fucking statue is at all comparable to killing a human being and it's making me want to ragequit the universe. (It's a group I'm in from before the election but I've stayed a member just to get general "hey here's a local thing happening" notices but yeah I think I'm all done there.)
    posted by soren_lorensen at 7:05 PM on August 14, 2017 [29 favorites]


    Game of Thrones fans will enjoy this gif:

    @ThePixelFactor
    Strange dream I had last night
    posted by zakur at 7:06 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Do you understand why we don't want an "alternate" history of the Confederacy @HBO? The first one hasn't been defeated yet. #charlottesville

    I hadnt realized until today how many states still have dogwhistles to the confederate flag in their state flags. Mississippi just has a confederate flag straightup in there. Alabama and Florida took the stars out of the X, but kept the X. Georgia got cute and used the first confederate flag, which looks like the Betsy Ross flag but only has 3 bars. Arkansas has some Masonic bullshit going on with the number of stars representing the number of countries it belonged to, with the fourth star standing apart, representing the confederacy.

    These people are evil, childish and persistent.
    posted by mrmurbles at 7:07 PM on August 14, 2017 [26 favorites]


    These people are evil, childish and persistent.

    The one thing you can say about Republicans is they play the long, long game. Over decades and centuries. I struggled for months to convince anyone on the left that the open Supreme Court seat mattered for their vote, when the right knew exactly the value of a generational opportunity to shift the hard right balance of the Court. They've organized around exactly that for decades, while our side still hasn't recognized the value of fighting for three branches of government instead of one, or at best two.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 7:17 PM on August 14, 2017 [24 favorites]


    Josh Marshall: Some Thoughts on Public Memory
    The historical chronology is important to understand. Reconstruction is generally dated from 1865 to 1877 when the federal government withdrew federal troops and allowed the restoration of so-called ‘home rule’ in the South. But black political power and biracial political coalitions didn’t disappear overnight. Though the sheet anchor protecting black citizenship was withdrawn, it took the better part of a generation for what we now recognize as the Jim Crow system to be firmly entrenched throughout the South. To note but one example, the judicial cornerstone of Jim Crow, ‘separate but equal’, only became the law of the land with Plessy v Ferguson in 1896.

    That statuary which is only beginning to come down in our day dates largely from this era and constituted a celebration and affirmation of this victory. Not the victory of the Civil War, which was of course a defeat but the sectional victory to define the post-war settlement.

    Consider some dates: Lee Circle in New Orleans, 1884; Lee Statue on Monument Avenue, Richmond, Virginia, 1890; Robert E. Lee Monument (Marianna, Arkansas), 1910; the Robert Edward Lee sculpture in Emancipation Park, Charlottesville, Virginia, commissioned 1917, erected 1924. All of these statues date not from the Civil War Era but from the decades of the establishment of Jim Crow, to celebrate the South’s ability to establish an apartheid system on the ruins of the Antebellum slave South. A statue of Lee in uniform, mounted on a horse in a southern town square has only ever had one meaning: white supremacy. These statues didn’t come to be associated with racism and Jim Crow only after the Civil War had receded into memory. They were created, from the start, to mark and celebrate the foundations of Jim Crow, uncontested white rule. More mythically, but to the same end, they were built to glorify a vision of the South in which her black citizens had no place.

    It has always been a canard that anyone is banishing history with these changes. But public memory isn’t simply history. It is a public recitation, often written onto the landscape, about what we revere and what we regret about who we are and what we come from. None of this is to say that Lee’s battles aren’t of interest. Nor is it to say what Lee was like as a private person. But neither is why he is celebrated in cast metal statuary across the South. There’s one reason. And by any measure for us today it is a bad reason. It is not even close.
    posted by tonycpsu at 7:19 PM on August 14, 2017 [103 favorites]


    Tonycpsu, I was just reading that very article, and I didn't know this till today:

    Lincoln and his war cabinet had little question what Lee deserved. Look at Arlington National Cemetery. That’s Lee’s plantation. The federal government confiscated it and dedicated it as a final resting place for those who died defending the United States. It is a solemn, poetically rich, final and ultimately righteous verdict on his role in our national life.
    posted by RedOrGreen at 7:22 PM on August 14, 2017 [81 favorites]


    We have the same problem in Arizona.

    Oh, no. You can't pin AZ Republicanism exclusively on the rural voters when we have the greater Phoenix metropolitan area dominating AZ voting.
    posted by Squeak Attack at 7:27 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Now that Kevin Plank of Under Armour has resigned from President's Manufacturing Council,he will have more time to LOWER RIPOFF MOISTURE-WICKING ATHLETIC WEAR PRICES!
    posted by cichlid ceilidh at 7:31 PM on August 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


    I hadnt realized until today how many states still have dogwhistles to the confederate flag in their state flags.

    Also Maryland (not listed in the above-linked article). I always thought of our flag as being so garish and eye-watering that it was almost charming, but it's much less so now that I know the history.
    posted by duffell at 7:31 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]






    I hadnt realized until today how many states still have dogwhistles to the confederate flag in their state flags.

    i'm confused, i thought this was the confederate flag
    posted by entropicamericana at 7:43 PM on August 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Now that Kevin Plank of Under Armour has resigned

    Kevin Plank is not black. There will be no such tweet tomorrow morning.
    posted by machaus at 7:44 PM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Also Maryland (not listed in the above-linked article). I always thought of our flag as being so garish and eye-watering that it was almost charming, but it's much less so now that I know the history.

    Aw man, I always liked the Maryland flag best among state flags, it stands out. It's the ridiculous dazzle camo looking yellow and black that makes it, and luckily that's the Union part... maybe just stick with that part for a flag. Until then, Ohio and their nonstandard shaped (and Union supporting!) design is in my #1 spot.
    posted by jason_steakums at 7:46 PM on August 14, 2017


    Squeak Attack: Oh, no. You can't pin AZ Republicanism exclusively on the rural voters when we have the greater Phoenix metropolitan area dominating AZ voting.

    Maricopa County overall does go red (although a more purplish hue), but Phoenix proper is one of the bluest areas of the state. If we could just get all the registered Democrats in my own district to vote, we could single-handedly flip the state in some races.

    Believe me, I don't love being lumped in with the greater metro area--which includes the deep red areas of Mesa and Gilbert--any more than you do.
    posted by Superplin at 7:48 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    There will be no such tweet tomorrow morning.

    I mean, if there's no tweet within 30 minutes of anything happening, there's never going to be a tweet.
    posted by cichlid ceilidh at 7:50 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Right-Wing Terror Plot Thwarted in Oklahoma City:

    Before settling on the Oklahoma City bank, Varnell debated possible targets for his bombing, including the Federal Reserve Building in Washington, D.C., an IRS building in Texas, and Facebook data servers.

    [...]

    As the time for the attack approached, Varnell gave the informant a note he wanted posted to Facebook after the bombing.

    [...]

    The Facebook message was an important part of the bombing, Varnell allegedly said.


    *headdesk*
    posted by jason_steakums at 7:51 PM on August 14, 2017 [24 favorites]


    i'm confused, i thought this was the confederate flag

    no that's just the battle flag, totally different
    posted by tivalasvegas at 7:51 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Mod note: One deleted. dmh, please skip this thread.
    posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:56 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I live very close to Arlington National Cemetery, and am familiar with its history. Montgomery C. Meigs was a Southerner who remained loyal to the Union during the Civil War, considered Lee a traitor, and was critical to the founding of the Cemetery on the grounds of the Lee Mansion, including demanding that officers be buried on the grounds of the mansion, around the Lee's former flower garden, to try to ensure it would remain a cemetery.
    posted by gudrun at 7:57 PM on August 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


    The Facebook message was an important part of the bombing, Varnell allegedly said.

    This is actually encouraging if the FBI is turning their same set-up tactics on the white nationalists as they routinely use on disaffected Muslims. At least they're using entrapment tactics more equitably.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 7:58 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I was feeling very sick and sad about all of this and decided to write something. I wanted to share it somewhere, so I hope it's okay to share here.

    Heather

    “If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention,”
    She wrote, and stepped out into massive division
    Where white faces twisted and drew from the tension
    And shouted their hate and of a toxic vision
    Where no one is welcome but the racists beside them
    And she stood alongside the crowd who would fight them,
    Against the cowardly cadre of cancerous citizens
    Who screamed and hissed and threatened with riot
    So the whole world would hear their naked hate bias

    Soon one of them split and returned with a squeal
    The man pressed on the pedal, his hands gripped the wheel
    Charging his brothers and sisters, he didn’t even feel
    An ounce of humanity, which his hatred did steal
    When he crossed the threshold of murderous thoughts turned real
    And his brothers’ bodies broke when they collided with steel
    And his sisters slammed down, crushed and killed by a wheel

    Now in a jail cell he sits where the judge denied freedom
    His shoulders were slumped, the guards at attention
    And his thoughts haven’t slipped or fallen to reason
    And they’ll stay with him until death seizes him
    Now Heather is gone, but she’s known by a nation
    And her cause doesn’t end but begins with every new daybreak
    When one mind is changed, a community can follow
    Until then our country will cry and repeat it tomorrow
    posted by drawfrommemory at 8:03 PM on August 14, 2017 [19 favorites]


    VICE News quickly turned around this mini-doc that follows events on the ground in Charlottesville as they happened. The voluminous and gleeful hatred on display is sickening to watch but am glad the footage was captured: Charlottesville: Race and Terror.
    posted by jettloe at 8:07 PM on August 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


    Lincoln and his war cabinet had little question what Lee deserved. Look at Arlington National Cemetery. That’s Lee’s plantation. The federal government confiscated it and dedicated it as a final resting place for those who died defending the United States. It is a solemn, poetically rich, final and ultimately righteous verdict on his role in our national life.

    Well yeah they stuck it to Lee, but his heirs were compensated for the loss of land.
    posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:10 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    This is actually encouraging if the FBI is turning their same set-up tactics on the white nationalists as they routinely use on disaffected Muslims. At least they're using entrapment tactics more equitably.

    After Malheur I'm still worried about this monster walking if he can convince a jury he was pushed by the undercover Feds or some bullshit like that. I'm glad to see that the article notes that he had multiple opportunities to cancel the attack plan, hopefully the FBI was meticulous about letting him do everything of his own volition without a hint of pushing him, because I sure as hell don't trust that the white guy won't get a more sympathetic jury than Muslim suspects caught under the same circumstances.
    posted by jason_steakums at 8:12 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    drawfrommemory - I have been listening to a lot of Prophets of Rage recently, and the flow of that would mesh so exactly with Chuck D and B-Real's rap interplay. Amazing. Thank you.
    posted by Slap*Happy at 8:12 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I suppose it depends on the rest of ones record and such, but you can threaten your disabled mother with a knife or lock her in the bathroom as a teenager and ship off to join the Army a few years later?

    If there was no conviction, it may well not have appeared on his record when he enlisted. Particularly as he would have been a juvenile. The background check for enlisting isn't as deep as the one they do for security clearances.

    Fields was only in the army for four months. That's not even enough time to make through basic training.

    Army basic training is 9 weeks. He may, however, have been reverted during training (basically flunked a given week and recycled to another unit). If he got injured during basic, he may have been put on hold for that. It's also possible he made it through basic and then got bounced when he went on to whatever MOS (specialty) school he signed up for. It's tough to say without knowing more.

    While in Coast Guard basic in '94, someone in my recruit company was thrown out on his ass for saying the n-word. Once. That was it. Not reverted to another company; discharged from the Coast Guard entirely, and it wasn't like he fell below any other standard. Our drill instructor (we called them company commanders) was a white Cajun guy and it was the angriest I'd ever seen him. He took racial issues very seriously. Another guy was nearly thrown out for the same thing two weeks later, and the only thing that saved him was pretty much every black recruit in the company pleading on his behalf. They thought it was just a dumb mistake rather than anything malicious.

    That whole experience made me think I really joined the right service, and I was happier than ever to be there. Unfortunately I didn't see that standard held consistently outside of basic, but that's how life is. Mileage varies, particularly in large organizations.

    With this guy, though? It's possible he was tossed out for just being dumb rather than racism, but it sure sounds like it was the racism that got him bounced. Sometimes the military really can do things right.
    posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:12 PM on August 14, 2017 [32 favorites]


    It's tough to say without knowing more.

    The Army has said that he did not make it through Basic Training.
    posted by Etrigan at 8:21 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    They pointedly did not say the exact reason.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 8:27 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    If he washed out of Basic it's very probably because either he had a previously undiscovered physical infirmity like asthma or he didn't pass the psych exams. I know where I'd put my money.
    posted by Justinian at 8:35 PM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Has anyone else here attended a local rally, and if so, how was it?

    There were two rallies in Louisville. I went to the one in the West End (the blacker and mostly poorer end of town, for nonlocals). There were a lot of speeches, ranging from very detailed "here is exactly what you can do as either minorities or allies" logistical calls to action to impassioned firebrand material (the stuff in between was, IMO, the weakest material, but most speakers were on one or the other side of that rhetorical line). No opposition that we couul see, and a lot of supportive honks and cheers from passing drivers. after that a few hundred of us (I'd say 600, but I'm crap at counting these things) set off on a march, which was, due to the short planning timeline, neither permitted nor fully planned out --- we just started at 32nd and Broadway and walked east chanting and taking over the street. We acquired a police entourage fairly quickly, riding alongside our left flank and constraining us to one side of the street, but they took a long time to overtly and officially engage, eventually forming a blockade armed with clubs and forcing us onto the sidewalk, where we continued to march (by this time much of the original group had peeled off and we could squeeze down reasonably easily. We walked all the way from 32nd to Baxter along Broadway, and then turned down Baxter to Bardstown Road where the march gradually thinned out because we had no set destination (I and a few others gave up around Bardstown and Grinstead).

    All in all, a very positive march with mostly positive responses from those around us. Even the police were, under the conditions, about as decent as can reasonably be expected.

    It's the ridiculous dazzle camo looking yellow and black that makes it, and luckily that's the Union part... maybe just stick with that part for a flag.

    I really must replace the Maryland flag I have programmed onto my bike wheel's spoke lights with a Calvert Arms/Grand Union. Apropos, any good antifascist symbols which conveniently fit onto a circle (or an annulus with a small hole at the center, really)?
    posted by jackbishop at 8:38 PM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Brian Krzanich, CEO of Intel, has resigned from the council. As Dan Diamond points out on Twitter, it's "Hard to not read Intel CEO's comment as a shot at Trump for attacking Merck today."
    posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:39 PM on August 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


    I've got bad news about the Calvert Arms/Grand Union flag. It's almost the Red Ensign
    posted by Yowser at 8:48 PM on August 14, 2017




    I mean, it's similar? I just did more research on flags than is healthy, and I guess it's really not that similar at all.
    posted by Yowser at 8:53 PM on August 14, 2017


    So I'm in this secret chicagoland-area facebook group that is supposed to be both-sides-political-roundtable thingy but has increasingly mainly been the idiot white suburban contingent spouting apologetics while the sane side rolls our eyes and clicks away.

    I'm just posting https://twitter.com/DerrickQLewis/status/897235297485901825 on every response in the current threads.

    Highly recommended. Chicken soup for the soul.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 9:01 PM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]



    While in Coast Guard basic in '94, someone in my recruit company was thrown out on his ass for saying the n-word. Once. That was it. Not reverted to another company; discharged from the Coast Guard entirely.... Unfortunately I didn't see that standard held consistently outside of basic, but that's how life is. Mileage varies, particularly in large organizations.


    The CG is by far my favorite service branch. But while on a maritime studies fellowship last summer, I was in a group that toured a local base and the Academy grounds and was welcomed by enlistees and officers, and it was from them we learned that there is still at least one base - in Florida - where no nonwhite Guardsmen are ever posted, because of the local hostility. Let's be clear: that is the federal government and a branch of the federal military bowing to local racist sensitivity and agreeing, fairly overtly, not to send any nonwhite servicepeople to that posting "for their own safety."

    As long as that shit's going down, we don't have an egalitarian military, and we don't have a reasonable and fair nation.
    posted by Miko at 9:03 PM on August 14, 2017 [40 favorites]




    Interesting: the 3% guys won't be providing "security" for alt-right rallies any more.

    The Three Percenters Official Statement Regarding the Violent Protests in Charlottesville
    Effective immediately, The Three Percenters has issued a stand down order in response to the violent protests that have erupted across our nation over the past 48 hours. We have intel that shows that these protests will continue to spill over into the days to come, as well as into other cities around the nation. […]

    We strongly reject and denounce anyone who calls themselves a patriot or a Three Percenter that has attended or is planning on attending any type of protest or counter protest related to these white supremacist and Nazi groups.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:25 PM on August 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


    I think the "cut them loose" message is out within the GOP. (Jimenez missed the memo)
    posted by ctmf at 9:28 PM on August 14, 2017


    DIE NAZI SCUM.
    posted by aspersioncast at 9:36 PM on August 14, 2017


    Someone's having fun with the Wikipedia page for Stone Mountain, the largest Confederate memorial (400 feet tall and completed by KKK members in the 1960s):

    "The revival of the Ku Klux Klan was emboldened by the release of D. W. Griffith's Klan-glorifying film The Birth of a Nation,[8] and coincided with the August 1915 lynching of Leo Frank. On November 25 of the same year, a small group, including fifteen robed and hooded "charter members" of the new organization, met at Stone Mountain to create a new iteration of the Klan and have sexual relations with pigs. They were led by William J. Simmons, and included two elderly members of the original Klan. As part of their ceremony, they burned a crude cross and made love to a whole drove of pigs.[9]"
    posted by miyabo at 9:36 PM on August 14, 2017 [27 favorites]


    Interesting: the 3% guys won't be providing "security" for alt-right rallies any more.

    The rift between the alt-right and the oathkeeper/3%-er contingents of the far right has been growing for some time: remember the "these are good memes" chokehold?

    Furthermore, there's the ongoing apparent failure of the alt-right to ally with police: note the narrative by the organizers and attendees of Unite the Right that the blame for the rally's failure lies largely on local police, and the footage of alt-righters including Spencer actually fighting the cops.

    If the alt-right stayed friendly with both militia-types and with the cops, then they'd become a pretty unstoppable fascist street-violence juggernaut. But they didn't, so they won't, and we just maybe won't all be murdered by them.
    posted by Rust Moranis at 9:38 PM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Bunch of nice white ladies on FB clutching pearls over how tearing down the statue isn't "the way"

    They're right about that, in a useless kind of way. But I expect they won't recognize that this is the way.
    posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:40 PM on August 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


    I'd wonder if this is what it felt like when Hitler eliminated the brown shirts, except that they know he's still got their back.
    posted by Yowser at 9:41 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I just did more research on flags than is healthy, and I guess it's really not that similar at all.

    Well, yeah. It's "similar" in the same way nearly every British naval and colonial flag is similar. There's a union jack in the corner. That's it. Heck, Hawaii has one of those despite never actually being British; King Kamehameha I just thought it looked cool.
    posted by Sys Rq at 9:44 PM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Yeah I didn't want to say it was a really dumb mistake and draw attention to myself, but here we are.
    posted by Yowser at 9:48 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Trump tweets: "Made additional remarks on Charlottesville and realize once again that the #Fake News Media will never be satisfied...truly bad people!"

    Somebody got killed by Nazis, and he's unable to grasp that it's not centrally a story about how the press was mean to him. This is what pathological narcissism looks like.

    And I struggle to understand what his supporters admire in him. Aren't they on about 'cucks' and emasculation? Here's one of the richest, most powerful men in the world, and yet he's SUCH a needy little whiner...
    posted by Sing Or Swim at 10:12 PM on August 14, 2017 [51 favorites]


    The FCC doesn't regulate profanity on cable television. (or on the internet) So, yeah, I do feel fucking free.

    I didn't want to derail but this has been brought up twice now so I'll address it: since it was a live news interview I heard about secondhand, I wasn't sure if it was going to Fox News on cable, Fox itself on broadcast, some kind of Internet stream, or whatever. So I hedged with “could get them in trouble” and “on the air”.

    Because the broader point remains: there are things you can and can not say in public circumstances based on community standards of decency, that often prohibit cussing but allow Nazi.

    I do not believe the specific peculiarities of the U.S. implementation of the principle of free speech are the be-all and end-all of that right. And I'm very skeptical of the idea that if we implemented it in a slightly different way, not unlike other democracies, all our rights would slippery-slope away into nothing.
    posted by traveler_ at 10:13 PM on August 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Ever try to convince the victim of a con artist they were conned?

    If they see him as a needy little whiner (which he is, among other things), they have to admit they were wrong about him. This also means their enemies, perceived or otherwise, were right. Both of these things are painful for lots of people to admit.
    posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:16 PM on August 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


    Plus all the needy little whiners who are secretly afraid they are needy little whiners can look at the president for validation. Yeah, they are picking on him! Just like they always do to me! This country sucks, We need to MAGA.
    posted by ctmf at 10:23 PM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Aren't they on about 'cucks' and emasculation? Here's one of the richest, most powerful men in the world, and yet he's SUCH a needy little whiner...

    The cucks and emasculation stuff is really just a sad, childish cover for the fact that they're all needy little whiners.
    posted by jason_steakums at 10:24 PM on August 14, 2017 [22 favorites]




    Durham City Council member Charlie Reece responds to emails RE: Confederate statue and said response is *chef air kiss of satisfaction*

    Durham County releases statement on statue-toppling that notably declines to notice that statue-having and statue-toppling ever took place

    Y'all, Durham County may be trying to gaslight us over the Confederate statue ever having existed, and I'm so very proud
    posted by nicebookrack at 10:41 PM on August 14, 2017 [62 favorites]


    As a former resident of Durham, I'm so proud of them.
    posted by biogeo at 11:05 PM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Wow. Charlie Reece has some solid Twitter chops.
    posted by Yowser at 11:05 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Charlottesville And The Effort To Downplay Racism In America, Jia Tolentino
    The white supremacists marching in Charlottesville were close to celebrating a hundred-year anniversary. The town’s Ku Klux Klan was founded in 1921: they put on hoods and burned crosses at midnight at Monticello, Thomas Jefferson’s sprawling plantation and the site of his grave. “Hundreds of Charlottesville’s leading business and professional men” were in attendance, the Daily Progress, which is still the city’s primary newspaper, wrote at the time. “It is said that the reorganization of the Klan is proceeding rapidly throughout the State, the South, and the Nation.” The K.K.K. made a thousand-dollar donation to the University of Virginia; the school’s president at the time, E. A. Alderman, signed his thank-you note “Faithfully yours.” The belief that America is somehow better than its white-supremacist history is sometimes an excuse masquerading as encouragement, and it’s part of the reason why the K.K.K. is back in business. What happened in Charlottesville is less an aberrant travesty in a progressive enclave than it is a reminder of how much evil can be obscured by the appearance of good.
    posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:16 PM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


    The Alameda (California) County Sheriff's Office just retweeted Richard Spencer and are apparently following a white supremacist. And they claim it's an accident, yet it's been up for 20+ minutes and is still up now. And if this is the "wrong account" kind of accident, it raises the obvious question of who was doing this and that it is unacceptable from a personal account as well.

    So, you know, something to write your elected officials about if you're in the East Bay or nearby.
    posted by zachlipton at 11:26 PM on August 14, 2017 [31 favorites]


    The white supremacists marching in Charlottesville were close to celebrating a hundred-year anniversary. The town’s Ku Klux Klan was founded in 1921: they put on hoods and burned crosses at midnight at Monticello, Thomas Jefferson’s sprawling plantation and the site of his grave.

    Let's not take this as a sign that Charlottesville has some unusually racist streak. It may well, I don't really know, but IIRC the KKK was massively popular across the U.S. during the 1920s, fueled by the film "Birth of A Nation," and you could probably say something similar about almost every sizable city in the country. One statistic I read -- haven't verified it -- said that 15% of the entire U.S. population was in the KKK at one point.

    And then its popular support collapsed rather suddenly.

    I'm not saying that Charlottesville ISN'T racist either -- but throwing out anecdotes about "the Klan was big there in 1921" doesn't establish that it was unusually so. Or, perhaps, this is evidence of the entire U.S. being deeply racist.
    posted by msalt at 11:49 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I believe the KKK peaked at like 5% of the population. Of course that could be 15% of the adult white population or something pretty easily. But it was around 5% of total population including non-whites and children.
    posted by Justinian at 11:57 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Right, my source was very vague and I'd trust yours over it any day. But 5% is still horrifying.

    How many organizations of any type, besides the two major political parties, have ever had that high a percent of the US population? Maybe something uncontroversial like AAA.
    posted by msalt at 12:13 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    But 5% is still horrifying.

    How many organizations of any type, besides the two major political parties, have ever had that high a percent of the US population? Maybe something uncontroversial like AAA.
    posted by msalt at 4:13 PM on August 15 [+] [!]


    Facebook users. Cilantro haters. Asians. Gay people. Smokers. Snapchat and Tinder users. People who use 20 or more condoms a week. 5% is well within the "you're god damn one of the abnormal" percentage.

    They are not everyone, and they SHOULD be afraid, because 10 times 5% oppose them. Make sure they know it.
    posted by saysthis at 12:20 AM on August 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


    perhaps, this is evidence of the entire U.S. being deeply racist

    That one. Or at least significantly more racist than most (white) people like to admit to themselves. The lack of self-awareness of the depth and history of American racism among white people is also am amazing thing; so many statements on Charlottesville from politicians invoking "founding principles" and Jefferson's "all men are created equal" (which is amazingly ironic, considering). A lot of people seem to be prone to expressing what can be called the idea of America, in the terms of American civil religion; "rights", "freedom", "equality"...without any kind of cognitive dissonance about the stark difference between those ideals and actual reality (see for instance significant racial disparities in policing and treatment in the criminal justice system...which make it kind of bleakly amusing to see people decrying the "infiltration of our police departments by white supremacists"; they're already there!). And saying "this isn't America" just kind of brushes aside the fact that yeah, it is, and to some degree it always has been. It may not square with the idea of America you've been taught to believe in, but then religious beliefs tend to be a bit irrational.
    posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:44 AM on August 15, 2017 [20 favorites]


    Most sources say that Klan membership peaked somewhere between 1920 and 1925 at around 4.5 million members, at a time when national population was 105-110 million. This was the era of the 25,000-member-strong march in Washington, D.C., or the photo you've likely seen of a local Klaven in Cañon City, Col. on a Ferris wheel. (Here in Wisconsin, members proudly displayed an American flag said to be the largest in the state.) Notably, many members wore peaked caps with their faces showing during public events, and often local newspapers would publish names and professional affiliations of the membership, as if it were a cousin of the Rotary or Elks club. Thankfully, for a variety of reasons (including a woman having been raped and [essentially] killed* by one of the most important leaders of the northern Klan), the organization went into a rapid decline in the latter half of the decade.

    * This Smithsonian article says that the Klan's membership constituted 30% of the white male population of Indiana. Hat tip to Justinian.

    WWII anti-Fascist Film Goes Viral after Charlottesville.

    Interestingly, the film I've been thinking about these last few days is the Roger Corman exploitation thriller The Intruder, starring none other than a pre-Trek William Shatner at his most sinister. It's very overtly an anti-racist film, although its message seems to be that racism is a tool that the clever and evil manipulate rather than a deep-seated sickness in American society as most would likely describe it today. [trailer][full film] This might also be a time to catch up with Five Came Back, the Netflix documentary covering the intersection of Hollywood and the Pentagon during the Second World War, with directors Capra, Stevens, Wyler, Huston, and Ford all deeply committed to creating anti-Nazi, pro-war (it must be said) propaganda, and deeply affected in different ways and degrees on their return to civilian filmmaking. (Wyler, in particular, was a Jew who had immigrated from Alsace before the war; when he scouted out his hometown after D-Day, not a single Jew remained.)

    Two more things. The modern-day ACLU philosophy was likely most clearly displayed in the Skokie case of which they're pretty proud. (A TV movie based on it is on YT.) Yes, "Illinois Nazis" were a very real thing -- there's a fascinating history here if you're up for it. One of them also came to my town 25 years ago and infamously brawled with Geraldo.

    Does anyone know why the story about Deandre Harris isn't being covered as much?

    I get the riposte, but I gently wonder if it can be framed as a way in which Heyer's white, female (and class) privilege can all serve a higher purpose. For instance, incipient supremacists might care more that a white victim has tarnished the movement's glamour for them, and be less likely to join or offer overt support. Also, Jake Tapper has helped boost the Gofundme for Marcus Martin, one of the injured, who threw his fiancee out of harm's way in the process. Let's hope more of these stories continue to come out (and that the media attention can remain on Charlottesville long enough, given contingencies of our times). I wonder if the state or anyone will set up a commission to investigate the police response and its apparent inadequacy -- and again, Heyer may well have a role to play in her death, as cynical as that sounds.

    Finally, Heyer's father has given an interview in which he forgives the perpetrator of his daughter's death, because forgiveness and peace were how she lived her life, and he wants to live up to her example.

    Sorry, meandering comment got away from me.
    posted by dhartung at 2:15 AM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]






    It's a Letter to the Editor, not an Editorial or a regular columnist. I've seen just as bad in other local papers, including ones near me, here in Liberal California.

    And it's not insane. It's Classic White Thinking... if 'we' aren't in charge of everything, then it's all wrong.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 3:37 AM on August 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


    The Alameda (California) County Sheriff's Office just retweeted Richard Spencer and are apparently following a white supremacist. And they claim it's an accident, yet it's been up for 20+ minutes and is still up now. And if this is the "wrong account" kind of accident, it raises the obvious question of who was doing this and that it is unacceptable from a personal account as well.

    So, you know, something to write your elected officials about if you're in the East Bay or nearby.


    The Blue Meanies are racist af? I'm shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked.

    I always felt uncomfortable driving north of Milpitas.
    posted by Talez at 3:37 AM on August 15, 2017


    > Facebook users. Cilantro haters. Asians. Gay people. Smokers. Snapchat and Tinder users. People who use 20 or more condoms a week. 5% is well within the "you're god damn one of the abnormal" percentage.

    Soul Coughing: Casiotone Nation (YT)

    Lyrics:
    The five percent Nation of corduroy.
    The five percent Nation of Marlboro.
    The five percent Nation of pay-per-view.
    The five percent Nation of nipple clamps.
    The five percent Nation of Milton Bradley.
    The five percent Nation of Casiotone.
    The five percent Nation of Casiotone.

    Etc Etc.
    posted by stonepharisee at 3:47 AM on August 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Another day, another article predicting the imminent demise of Bannon ("Bannon in Limbo," SLNYT).

    Headlines through 2020:

    "Bannon's head on chopping block"

    "White House hardliners denounce Bannon"

    "Bannon, friendless, twists in the wind"

    "Bromance gone awry: Trump and Bannon"

    "Countdown to resignation for Bannon"

    "Bannon: 'I'm on life support'"
    posted by Gordion Knott at 3:54 AM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    The Three Percenters Official Statement Regarding the Violent Protests in Charlottesville

    Eh, fuck these yutzes anyway. I refer you to the pictures to which I linked upthread in which one of them can be seen with a patch on his little LARP vest featuring both a Confederate flag and a "III".

    I also spent my Sunday afternoon digging around the social media accounts of dozens of these fuckwits, trying to work out the names of the people in the pictures, and their taste in memes has a pretty big intersection with that of the Pepe crowd, especially among the younger ones.

    They don't get to disavow.
    posted by busted_crayons at 3:59 AM on August 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Seconding the recommendation to watch that clip of Seth Meyers.

    Although it's some serious cognitive dissonance for me to see that the first real-talk, straight-up critique of the president's actions this weekend from a public figure came from the guy who used to make bro-jokes on Weekend Update.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:51 AM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Mod note: One deleted. Please don't take this opportunity to start a fight about Bernie Sanders, or axegrind if you have been warned to cut out the axegrinding.
    posted by taz (staff) at 5:21 AM on August 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


    People who use 20 or more condoms a week.

    Ten fingers, ten toes, and the caution that comes from a healthy respect for the well-being of all potential sexual partners. We're all in this together. Universe bless you, friend.
    -xB69x
    posted by xBongzilla69x at 5:39 AM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    traveler_: I do not believe the specific peculiarities of the U.S. implementation of the principle of free speech are the be-all and end-all of that right. And I'm very skeptical of the idea that if we implemented it in a slightly different way, not unlike other democracies, all our rights would slippery-slope away into nothing.

    From way up thread, but I love this so much I want to memorize it. I've long been thinking along these lines, and I've found it really hard to have a conversation about it.

    In addition, the First Amendment uses the phrase 'to peacefully assemble'. That is not at all what the United Right was doing or intended to do or is intending to do at future rallies, so I would think that any city is well within their rights to cancel permits for them.
    posted by maggiemaggie at 5:51 AM on August 15, 2017 [14 favorites]


    When we think about the percentage of US white men or US adults who used to belong to the KKK at its peak, it's useful to compare that to *how many people belonged to secret societies in general* at that time, and to check it against other groups that included pyramid or financial scheme elements. I learned about this via Daniel Davies's blogging on secret societies and on the intersection of insurance and Indiana. It looks like he draws a lot from Fraternal Organizations: The Greenwood Encyclopedia of American Institutions, in case people want to do more reading.
    posted by brainwane at 5:59 AM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    I do not believe the specific peculiarities of the U.S. implementation of the principle of free speech are the be-all and end-all of that right. And I'm very skeptical of the idea that if we implemented it in a slightly different way, not unlike other democracies, all our rights would slippery-slope away into nothing.

    With Republicans controlling two branches of the federal government, increasing control of the federal judiciary, and control of 32 state governments, I am not at all confident that limiting speech would turn out the way people in this thread would like. I understand the distaste for the ACLU's stance, but we're dealing with governments that want to make it legal to run over protesters.
    posted by Mavri at 6:01 AM on August 15, 2017 [31 favorites]


    The United Right will bray loudly how they were peaceful until Those Darned Antifa showed up and attacked them, and clearly they should be prepared to defend themselves from known violent disruptors. And that will muddy the legal water sufficiently.

    And 5% is seriously concerning because:
    1) It's not evenly distributed. Good luck to you if your town happens to have a surplus.
    2) Every D&D player knows how a natural 20 can happen at any time.
    3) It only takes ONE to harass or kill someone. 5% is an awful lot of ones.
    posted by delfin at 6:01 AM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    incipient supremacists might care more that a white victim has tarnished the movement's glamour for them
    I don't think elevating the white girl in particular makes much difference to white supremacists. She was on "the wrong side" and a "race traitor" and "deserved what she got." At my most generous I could potentially see a case made for elevating the story of the person who will never breathe again over the folks who "just" have permanent scarring and probably PTSD, but I'm not inclined to give most of the media much credit for making the right choices in these situations.
    The modern-day ACLU philosophy was likely most clearly displayed in the Skokie case of which they're pretty proud.
    This opinion will likely be quite unpopular here, but I think that the ACLU's main mistake in this case was not in choosing to represent the civil rights of white supremacists, it was a failure to recognize that the city's case was about safety, not speech quashing. I'm not convinced that the police were in top form that day, but even so, the police and the mayor complained that the main reason they wanted the protest moved to an open area park was to be able to separate the protestors from one another. In losing their case they had to deal with suboptimal conditions for a large protest. I think they made a mistake in this particular case, but I don't generally have an issue with them defending speech I disagree with. I also welcome their activity on other cases, where they represent the interests of the press, minorities, workers, prisoners, immigrants, etc.
    posted by xyzzy at 6:03 AM on August 15, 2017 [22 favorites]


    The VICE News Tonight segment is terrifying, and includes this amazing statement from Tanesha Hudson, a Charlottesville activist:

    "This has always been the reality of Charlottesville. You can't stand in one corner in this city and not look at the master sitting on top of Monticello.. He looks down on us. He's been looking down on us for God knows how long."
    posted by ChuraChura at 6:03 AM on August 15, 2017 [39 favorites]


    The United Right will bray loudly how they were peaceful until Those Darned Antifa showed up and attacked them, and clearly they should be prepared to defend themselves from known violent disruptors. And that will muddy the legal water sufficiently.

    I've had some limited success countering this line with videos like this one. As always in protest clashes, it can be hard to tell who instigated what, but it's not that hard to tell who's delivering blows with flagpoles or kicking people who are on the ground covering their heads.
    posted by Miko at 6:09 AM on August 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


    The United Right will bray loudly how they were peaceful until Those Darned Antifa showed up and attacked them,

    Yeah, one of the main pix they're tweeting around supposedly showing Antifa attacking a cop is a fake. It's actually from protests in Greece and the Antifa logo was 'shopped on the guy.

    Snopes: Antifa Member Photographed Beating Police Officer? - A photograph purportedly showing an Antifa member hitting a police officer has been digitally manipulated.
    posted by chris24 at 6:15 AM on August 15, 2017 [21 favorites]


    I'm down with telling these fickler's that they can either of their damn started in museums dedicated to the history of slavery or watch them get taken down one by one. Move em or lose em.
    posted by kaibutsu at 6:36 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Sam Sanders' most recent episode of It's Been A Minute, Charlottesville and White People, is really excellent. And Jamelle Bouie will be on Code Switch this week.
    posted by ChuraChura at 6:41 AM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]




    The video Miko linked to above shows a guy waving around a hand gun and threatening, Go ahead, I'll shoot you. Unbelievable.
    posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:06 AM on August 15, 2017




    It occurred to me, seeing yet another picture of Tiki torch bearers, that at more peaceful events, people light candles.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 7:13 AM on August 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Candles illuminate. Torches burn.
    posted by Barack Spinoza at 7:16 AM on August 15, 2017 [57 favorites]


    Charlottesville murder suspect can't afford lawyer; public defender is related to a victim

    how come his pals aren't stepping up and getting him one?
    posted by pyramid termite at 7:16 AM on August 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Would prefer any civil rights organizations not step in to defend him out of sense of principle unless they absolutely 1000% have run out of other things to spend time and money on.
    posted by Artw at 7:18 AM on August 15, 2017 [14 favorites]


    Would prefer any civil rights organizations not step in to defend him out of sense of principle unless they absolutely 1000% have run out of other things to spend time and money on.
    Including buying reusable toilet paper for all their offices.
    posted by XtinaS at 7:21 AM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    One very interesting moment from the video Miko posted is at 6:54 (warning, N-bomb): an alt-right participant attempts to get behind a zone cordoned by the III%er militia security, apparently set up to protect the wounded or non-participants, and is stopped by them in a very unfriendly way. "Not a chance...not a fuckin' chance." There is no love between these groups right now. The alt-right really shit the bed here and are losing their heavily-armed friends.
    posted by Rust Moranis at 7:24 AM on August 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


    I've kinda despised Jimmy Fallon since the Trump hair petting, but his response to Charlottesville is better. (though that Trump was a racist fascist prick was obvious when he petted his fucking hair, but anywho...)

    @FallonTonight
    Jimmy takes a moment at the start of the show to address the events in #Charlottesville

    VIDEO
    posted by chris24 at 7:24 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    > how come his pals aren't stepping up and getting him one?

    Chances are they will.
    posted by nangar at 7:27 AM on August 15, 2017


    I can't get out of my head the student in my class who told me, shortly after the election, that Trump was America's mirror.

    This older lady was pretty devout, I think that's the word? Like, I traumatized her with the mild profanity on the literature I'd assigned and didn't realize it until I asked if anybody minded seeing Glenn Gary Glenn Ross and she was like YES.

    She'd been called the n word several times, she'd said. She said as a black person with an accent it's a double whammy (paraphrasing) in terms of being a target for racists.

    But she's a small woman who's traumatized by 'fuck' and 'shit.' I guess the belated epiphany I had maybe because of Charlottesville, because it was vehicle versus person that caused the most destruction, is that, of course, a small, church-going black woman with a Jamaican accent is going to get the n-word. Because that's a vulnerable target.

    I guess that's what I've been my missing, in my blue world: these fuckers lurk at the margins, picking at the vulnerable.
    posted by angrycat at 7:28 AM on August 15, 2017 [22 favorites]


    Anybody got like the best scholarly source that's just like, are you kidding me, of course the war was about slavery, to post to this idiot?
    posted by cui bono at 7:33 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Following the Twitter thread from that great chart zombieflanders linked to led me to its origin, an SPLC report called "Whose Heritage? Public Symbols of the Confederacy." Now is a great time to think and talk about what we've memorialized on the landscape and what messages and agreements those objects communicate.

    There's a bit of a schism going on these days between public historians who advocate removals of racist memorials, and those who want to preserve everything in the name of historical document. My response generally is that we don't preserve "colored" water fountains or railway cars, and those were historic too. Historical presentation is never neutral, and it's just as historically-minded to document that a statue was once located somewhere as it is to insist that it stay where it was put.

    As for the "put it in a museum" thing - I work in museums, and I know for a fact that most of us don't want 'em. Also, there are so, so many. It could be that state museums, or maybe places like Bryan Stevenson's Equal Justice Initiative museum that's going to commemorate lynching and racial violence, would see some role for the more significant of these things, ones that might be important from an artistic or historical standpoint or which played an important role in ongoing discourse. Civil War museums might want them, but that points back to the issue that these are statues ostensibly about the Civil War, but not from the Civil War era, and they don't reflect the concerns of people at the time of the war, but concerns a generation later when white supremacy was on the rise.

    But for the most part, we should be considering that they might be trash made of stone, the smelly garbage of a previous era, with little artistic, historical, or noble significance to preserve. I can't imagine wanting to wander around a giant airplane hanger filled with hundreds of equestrian statues to jackass generals. We don't need that experience to remember the Civil War.
    posted by Miko at 7:35 AM on August 15, 2017 [35 favorites]


    For more on how Trump's awful response was treated. Including clips.

    Slate: Donald Trump Just Radicalized Late-Night TV
    There really wasn’t anything else to talk about besides Charlottesville on Monday night, if you were lucky enough to have a television show, and late-night hosts rose to the challenge. That includes unlikely suspects like the normally apolitical Jimmy Fallon, who opened with a moving, joke-free reminder that “it’s important for everyone, especially white people in this country, to speak out against” the poisonous ideologies on display in Charlottesville. Jimmy Kimmel, who has had less and less tolerance for bullshit since the health care debacle, found room for some jokes, but primarily railed against Trump, wondering aloud if the president “cut eyeholes in his bedsheets.” Stephen Colbert went with a traditional monologue, which he ended by addressing white supremacists and Trump supporters directly: “If you get to ruin khakis and polo shirts, I say red baseball caps mean you’re an asshole.” Seth Meyers had it both ways, opening with a joke-free statement like Fallon, then circling back to pick up the jokes in his Closer Look segment on Charlottesville. He gets extra credit for painstakingly tracing the ways ignoring Trump’s white supremacist views, statements, and actions have led us to this pass. (Trevor Noah and The Daily Show picked a hell of a week to go on vacation.)

    Beyond the interest in seeing how different writers rooms treated the same material—which clips they used, how they managed the humor/disgust/hope balance, and so on—what’s fascinating about Monday’s late-night lineup is how unified it was. Trump supporters who prefer The Tonight Show or Jimmy Kimmel Live! because they aren’t usually as schoolmarmish about the whole “voting for white supremacy” thing as, say, The Daily Show had nothing to watch on Monday night. Even Conan O’Brien, who seems to have passed on the chance to deliver a monologue about American racism, invited Sen. Al Franken on to tell TBS viewers about, among other things, the Cornerstone Speech. This seems like the kind of unity we’re going to need in the wake of Charlottesville, as opposed to the reassuring but false idea that Americans want the same things and we should all come together as a nation and stop talking about white supremacy. Some Americans don’t want the same things, and the rest of us have a moral responsibility to speak out. Especially those of us who host television shows.
    posted by chris24 at 7:36 AM on August 15, 2017 [34 favorites]


    There is no love between these groups right now. The alt-right really shit the bed here and are losing their heavily-armed friends.

    I dunno, seemed like just everyday warrior club cosplay shit to me tbh.
    posted by fleacircus at 7:38 AM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    > Anybody got like the best scholarly source that's just like, are you kidding me, of course the war was about slavery, to post to this idiot?

    The TX, SC articles of secession, among others, are indisputable sources that have explicit language that clearly documents the role of slavery in the decision to secede. (They're all pretty easy to find online.)
    posted by klarck at 7:39 AM on August 15, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Anybody got like the best scholarly source that's just like, are you kidding me, of course the war was about slavery, to post to this idiot?

    Here's a 5 minute video from Colonel Ty Seidule, Professor and Head of the Department of History at the United States Military Academy at West Point, that's circulating FB today.

    VIDEO
    posted by chris24 at 7:39 AM on August 15, 2017 [24 favorites]


    I work in museums, and I know for a fact that most of us don't want 'em.

    I hear you there. When I was at the a Historical Society, we were supposed to remain neutral on these sorts of things, mostly, I think, out of cowardice. But the preservation of history is not a neutral act, it's a deliberate act of selection.

    These memorial are only history inasmuch as everything is history. But their function was never to be monuments to history, but instead revisions of history, representations of a white supremacist worldview that rejects the historical consensus on the Civil War and on American racism and instead tries to pretend is is a story of honor and heroism.

    Historical revisionism has no place in our public squares, especially historical revisionism that seeks to recast white supremacy as honorable.
    posted by maxsparber at 7:41 AM on August 15, 2017 [22 favorites]


    > Anybody got like the best scholarly source that's just like, are you kidding me, of course the war was about slavery, to post to this idiot?

    Social historian Jim Loewen has focused on this issue a lot and edited the volume The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader. After reading through his collected work and essays, there's no way you can mount a serious argument that slavery wasn't the driving issue.
    posted by Miko at 7:42 AM on August 15, 2017 [14 favorites]


    So, I tried the secession papers, and this was his response, basically nonsense?

    When the Confederacy was established it shut out the "fire-eaters" who spurred on the initial secession. They did so to such a degree that there was a real danger that the deep South [Such as South Carolina] were in danger of not ratifying the constitution because they felt the government would not go far enough to protect their slave property. Fire-eaters, such as drafted the Scuth Carolina secession statement actually thought that the South should re-open the Slave Trade. Alexander Stephens wrote his Cornerstone Speech after telling the delegates to the conference that set up the Constitution that it was imperative that the world know that the Confederacy was not set up with slavery as the driving factor. Yet, the Cornerstone Speech was all about Slavery. 1 was said to his fellow politicians and the other was presented to the people of the Deep South in his campaign to get them to ratify the Constitution. To say the War of Southern Independence was all about slavery is like saying the war in Afghanistan and Iraq was all about oil. While there is some truth to it if it was all about oil we would have set thiings up so that we could have gotten some out of the deal and we didn't. We just got more debt and dead soldiers and no oil. So, did you watch the entire presentation?
    posted by cui bono at 7:46 AM on August 15, 2017


    Anybody got like the best scholarly source that's just like, are you kidding me, of course the war was about slavery, to post to this idiot?

    The first thing I always share with people who bring up the Heritage argument is the Cornerstone Speech, which is pretty damn explicit:
    Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
    posted by jammer at 7:47 AM on August 15, 2017 [24 favorites]


    this was his response, basically nonsense?

    Yes. I would love to not argue with racists by proxy here in this thread if possible.
    posted by jessamyn at 7:49 AM on August 15, 2017 [52 favorites]


    To say the War of Southern Independence was all about slavery is like saying the war in Afghanistan and Iraq was all about oil.

    I love it when people come right up to the edge of enlightenment and then keep on walking by like they never saw anything.
    posted by fleacircus at 7:51 AM on August 15, 2017 [30 favorites]


    WaPo: The ‘war on whites’ is a myth — and an ugly one
    The “war on whites” is a core concern of Trump’s base, but it isn’t true. White people, especially white males, still have a huge advantage in American society. White people not only control a vastly disproportionate share of the country’s wealth, income and economic power, they also enjoy tremendous advantages helping them to stay ahead financially.

    On average, whites are far more likely to get hired and are paid more than nonwhites. Just having a “white-sounding name,” such as Emily or Greg, makes a job applicant 50 percent more like to get called for a job interview than a person with a name given more frequently to African Americans, such as Lakisha or Jamal, according to a study from the National Bureau of Economic Research. That helps explain why the black unemployment rate has been about double the white unemployment rate for decades, according to Labor Department statistics.

    White families on average have 14 times more wealth than black families and nearly 11 times more than Hispanic families, according to the Census Bureau. Nonwhites are far more likely to live in poverty and go to jail than whites. The American Dream of owning a home has been achieved by more than 72 percent of whites. In contrast, more than half of black and Hispanic households rent.

    There’s been a lot of attention directed to the plight of the white working class, the “Trump base” that propelled him to victory. It’s true that whites without college degrees have a harder time finding good-paying jobs in 2017 than they did in the past as manufacturing jobs have gone to robots. It’s also true that suicide and substance abuse is way up among whites in their prime working years, a phenomenon that stunned the nation after Princeton economists Angus Deaton (a Nobel Prize winner) and Anne Case pointed it out in 2015.

    But keep this in mind: The white working class still fares better economically than the nonwhite working class. Among Americans who have graduated high school but don’t have a college degree, whites have the lowest unemployment rate and are paid on average $150 more than blacks and $125 more than Hispanics every week, according to Labor Department wage data. That helps explain why only 9 percent of white families live in poverty, while nearly a quarter of black families do.

    Perhaps the most telling statistic of all is to look at what Americans say when they are specifically asked if they have ever been discriminated against because of the color of their skin. More than a third of blacks and a quarter of Hispanics say they have personally faced discrimination; just 11 percent of whites do.

    Here are 10 charts showing the many ways whites are overwhelmingly better off than nonwhites in America today.
    posted by chris24 at 7:52 AM on August 15, 2017 [53 favorites]


    I do apologize, but I am not a historian, especially not an American one, and I am ill equipped to argue effectively against that other than instinctively. I do however feel that it is important to push back on this narrative after this weekend that the confederacy was benign and noble, and so I'm trying to do my part in a way that causes change. Or not.
    posted by cui bono at 7:53 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    What This Cruel War Was Over is an excellent source of quotes from articles of secession, etc, about going to war to defend slavery. It's by Ta-Nehisi Coates, who is an excellent writer and scholar. But to be perfectly candid a lot of white racists won't be able to learn from an article by him.
    posted by Nelson at 7:55 AM on August 15, 2017 [14 favorites]


    These memorial are only history inasmuch as everything is history. But their function was never to be monuments to history, but instead revisions of history, representations of a white supremacist worldview that rejects the historical consensus on the Civil War and on American racism and instead tries to pretend is is a story of honor and heroism.

    Yep. As a kid what filtered up here to Canada was these various narratives about the civil war. I knew about slavery but there was this disconnect between the two. The south seemed pretty cool. And while it was sad that the two sides disagreed and had to fight a war both sides were 'right' so to speak. So it was sad that the south lost and I hate to say it sad that their way of life had to go even though slavery was bad. They were good people who done wrong. Honorable and heroic. There was no ultimate bad guy just people who made bad choices.


    Of course that's all kinds of messed up and I sorted it all out as a I got older but those first types of narratives I was exposed to were harder to shake then they should of been. I never saw the statues in person but I knew that they existed. I knew that different states recognized leaders from the war and people wouldn't put up these sorts of memorials if the people were horrible, there must be something good about them right? That's part of the thought process that happens around these things.

    They really need to go.
    posted by Jalliah at 8:01 AM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Maybe there should be a special new museum where they take these shitty massed produced statues from the 20s and line them up next to each other to show what a fakey bunch of crap they are.
    posted by Artw at 8:04 AM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Historian Carroll van West (MTSU faculty, state historian of TN) posted this on his Facebook wall today:

    "The Civil War transformed Tennessee and the nation. Understanding its history and legacy is fundamental to an appreciation of who we are as citizens and what the United States of America means to the rest of the world.

    We can find, explore, and learn that history on our own terms at our repositories of the past—historic battlefields, historic cemeteries, archives, and museums. At such places we can choose to learn the whole story of the Civil War era. This destructive, bloody, courageous, and complex time changed America forever. The war and post-war Reconstruction not only achieved reunion but also launched our own internal struggle to accept fully our founding creed that “all men are created equal.” We call that struggle the civil rights movement, which continues today. There are powerful lessons to learn from the Civil War era at our state’s historic repositories.

    We do not learn those lessons at the monuments inserted into our public spaces at the turn of the 20th century. They were the “politically correct” statements of their time—rarely historical or educational but meant to redefine the story of the war and its outcome as somehow an endorsement of the “Jim Crow” segregation policies then sweeping the nation. Just as you can read the records of the southern secession conventions to understand how preserving slavery was fundamental to disunion, you can read the dedication ceremonies of the monuments to see how racially charged they were. The monuments were about glorification of an imagined past—and the assertion that the South remained unbowed, defiant.

    Many citizens today are ready for most of the monuments to go away. As a historian, I do not want them destroyed: they are historical documents from the era of racial segregation, which held pernicious sway over Tennessee (and national) culture and politics for decades. The Jim Crow South was one of state-sanctioned domestic terrorism, of unchecked brutality and violence, and a degree of racial oppression that seems unimaginable today. We cannot forget that past—or we open the door to the possibility that it could return.

    Like other historical documents, the monuments best belong in our repositories of the past where we can gain understanding from studying what they are and what they meant over time. Today Civil War-era museums, historic sites, cemeteries, and battlefields can be found across Tennessee. Many would accept the donation of the monuments—where they can be protected, interpreted, and understood. Too many of us have stood by for years while domestic terrorists transformed the monuments into rallying points for their sick political agenda; by doing so we have forfeited the monuments’ place of prominence in our public landscape.

    Understanding the impact of the Civil War on Tennessee—yes! Letting white supremacists, neo-Nazis, and hate groups twist that real past into a fake past that divides and erodes our great nation—hell no!! We have taken too many steps forward to becoming “one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Let’s keep moving forward."
    posted by Miko at 8:04 AM on August 15, 2017 [39 favorites]


    I'd be interested in seeing museum exhibits of the Confederate monuments that explore how many of the metal statues were mass-produced crap churned out to make a buck from the Daughters of the Confederacy et all.

    Many (most?) of these monuments aren't historical art pieces produced by talented artisans; they were the equivalent of those concrete cherub fountains you buy from Walmart to put in your garden. No wonder the Durham statue folded like cardboard!
    posted by nicebookrack at 8:23 AM on August 15, 2017 [30 favorites]


    No wonder the Durham statue folded like cardboard!

    proposing this simile be forever replaced by "crumpled like a confederate statue"
    posted by entropicamericana at 8:27 AM on August 15, 2017 [48 favorites]


    Thanks for posting that, Miko!

    I take issue with this statement he makes:

    Understanding the impact of the Civil War on Tennessee—yes! Letting white supremacists, neo-Nazis, and hate groups twist that real past into a fake past that divides and erodes our great nation—hell no!!

    He gets half the point, and if museums want to take ownership of them, great, have at it (on preview, maybe museums won't even want them). But he misses the crucial point that leaving these statues up forces people of color to "walk in the shadow of the Confederacy," as Tracy Clayton put it -- the harm they cause is inherent to their existence and placement and not only because white supremacists use them as an excuse for shittiness. To ignore that reality is to again foreground white people and white feelings.

    To be clear, he is on the right side of history here, and his missing part of the picture is not me trying to drive out lefty allies.
    posted by Ragini at 8:28 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    My "store the statues" suggestion is to excavate a big basement, pack the statues in like buried terracotta soldiers, throw a shed roof on top with open sides and put a railing around it for spectators and expectorators. And this should be located pretty far out of town so people aren't walking past it as part of their regular lives.
    posted by puddledork at 8:30 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    my suggestion is to store them in a very, very warm crucible
    posted by entropicamericana at 8:34 AM on August 15, 2017 [29 favorites]


    In Hungary, they moved all the statues of Lenin to Memento Park, it's outside of Budapest somewhere.
    posted by Rash at 8:36 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Here's a thought for what to do with these statues.

    I'm getting ready for a trip to Berlin, and am in the browsing-in-guidebooks stage; I've learned that there is a museum devoted to How The Third Reich Happened - and since the place is called The Topography Of Terror, I think it's safe to say it's meant to be a warning rather than a commemoration.

    Perhaps it is time for a similar such museum here in this country, dealing with the history of racial relations or racial inequality; one wing could be devoted to the Confederate Statues from various parts of the country, with explanatory commentary about where they were, who paid for them, and presenting the truth about the men depicted in the statues.

    Hell, we could even placate people with an exhibit devoted to that bullshit "were there such things as Irish slaves" claim. There is a point to be made about how the defintion of "race" was kind of weirdly fluid back in some parts of the 1800s, and the Irish fell into a sort of weird gray area, but that doesn't mean that slavery and indentured servitude were the same thing at all.

    There's already been a call for a memorial to victims of lynching. I think it's also time for this.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:36 AM on August 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


    it's outside of Budapest somewhere.

    Accesible by bus but otherwise cordoned off from the rest of society. No one has to walk in the shadows of their terrible history. I've been there, it's like an airplane graveyard, way out in the middle of nowhere.
    posted by jessamyn at 8:37 AM on August 15, 2017 [27 favorites]




    My "store the statues" suggestion is to excavate a big basement, pack the statues in like buried terracotta soldiers, throw a shed roof on top with open sides and put a railing around it for spectators and expectorators. And this should be located pretty far out of town so people aren't walking past it as part of their regular lives.


    I think the Baltic idea of packing Soviet kitch in one park where people can come see it is just right. It delegitimizes the power that was once expressed with those statues, while at the same time allowing people to come and see what kind of environment earlier generations had to live in.

    Collect all those statues of Lee and Jackson and what-have-you into one place, and call it the National Memorial for the Unconscionable Postponement of Reconstruction.
    posted by ocschwar at 8:38 AM on August 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


    That Whose Heritage report from SPLC is really great. The gem is this graph in the middle showing how most Confederate monuments were built around 1910 and around 1960. The number of schools named after Confederate traitors after school integration became the law is particularly telling.
    posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on August 15, 2017 [47 favorites]


    EmpressCallipygos: the Topopgraphy of Terror museum in Berlin is fantastic and totally worth a visit. If you're going to be there in September / early October drop me a MeMail, I'll meet you there. I wrote a blog post awhile back about how Germany has tried to come to terms with its evil history. We don't have anything like it in the US and absolutely should. The new National Museum of African American History and Culture has a bit of it.
    posted by Nelson at 8:41 AM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Suggest that the proposed statue park does not have a gift shop.
    posted by Artw at 8:42 AM on August 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Maybe move all the statues to Stone Mountain? (And of course,, discontinue the sound and light spectacular and all that theme park shit they do there.)
    posted by Rash at 8:43 AM on August 15, 2017


    Perhaps it is time for a similar such museum here in this country, dealing with the history of racial relations or racial inequality

    I believe the Smithsonian opened something like that just last year.
    posted by Rash at 8:47 AM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Only if the monument on Stone Mountain is itself removed or destroyed.
    posted by zombieflanders at 8:47 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    From the Whose Heritage report Nelson linked:

    The survey counted 32 monuments and other symbols that were dedicated or rededicated in the years since 2000.

    If people want to complain about "tearing down history," maybe we can start by tearing down the dozens of monuments that have less history behind them than freaking All Star by Smash Mouth?
    posted by skymt at 8:48 AM on August 15, 2017 [24 favorites]




    In Hungary, they moved all the statues of Lenin to Memento Park, it's outside of Budapest somewhere.

    An additional benefit of this approach would be being able to recycle these plans:

    This place is not a place of honor.

    No highly esteemed deed is commemorated here.

    posted by jammer at 8:53 AM on August 15, 2017 [33 favorites]


    Where's Yezhov?
    posted by clavdivs at 8:53 AM on August 15, 2017


    White nationalist group planning rally in Lexington to oppose moving statues

    White nationalists are awful people, but at least they'll help us fight the Weeping Angels.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 8:55 AM on August 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


    White nationalists are awful people, but at least they'll help us fight the Weeping Angels.

    I'd find myself rooting for the Angels in those circumstances.
    posted by dazed_one at 8:59 AM on August 15, 2017 [34 favorites]


    Where's Yezhov?

    Come on, clavs. Taking down Confederate statues from their places of honor shouldn't be equated with a damnatio memoriae style Great Purge. They'll still be in the history books, even if they're not front and center in state capitols and public parks.
    posted by zamboni at 9:06 AM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Perhaps it is time for a similar such museum here in this country, dealing with the history of racial relations or racial inequality

    The National Civil Rights Museum in Memphis, TN does a brilliant job of tracing the long history of slavery through the Civil War, Reconstruction, Jim Crow and the Civil Rights Era. I came away with a much deeper understanding of how stacked the deck has always been, even when the war was "won" or things were getting "better". Definitely worth travelling for and worth giving at least half-a-day to taking in.
    posted by kokaku at 9:10 AM on August 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


    I hope Stone Mountain gets the Confederate bas-relief sandblasted off its face so the mountain can become a nature park in Georgia. The surrounding area is beautiful and Stone Mountain itself is completely stunning in person to look at or stand atop. It's completely unacceptable that such a beautiful natural feature should either remain tainted as a permanent public promotion of white supremacy or be hidden from public view to fall into obscurity. Dyamite that tacky Klan shit into oblivion!

    Just imagine: Stone Mountain Civil Rights Museum and Nature Park! Free wedding venues offered for black, gay, and Jewish weddings!
    posted by nicebookrack at 9:10 AM on August 15, 2017 [31 favorites]


    Melt them down and use the metal to cast a new memorial, one more fitting to the things we should remember, celebrate and aim to accomplish?
    posted by Devonian at 9:10 AM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Where's Yezhov?

    In the history books, where he belongs.
    posted by Behemoth at 9:17 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    They sprayed cooking oil on the damn monument in Durham to keep people from tearing it down.

    Sounds like a good base to throw flour onto. Then set on fire. Should do wonders for these flimsy things.
    posted by phearlez at 9:29 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    If people want to complain about "tearing down history," maybe we can start by tearing down the dozens of monuments that have less history behind them than freaking All Star by Smash Mouth?

    hey now
    posted by Barack Spinoza at 9:34 AM on August 15, 2017 [55 favorites]


    hey now

    flagged as "woah there satan"
    posted by zombieflanders at 9:36 AM on August 15, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Sounds like a good base to throw flour onto. Then set on fire

    Definitely don't use the very flammable Coffee-Mate. That would be wrong.
    posted by Room 641-A at 9:38 AM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    The triumph of the Mystery Men over Casanova Frankenstein and the Disco Boys must not go uncommemorated good sir
    posted by delfin at 9:38 AM on August 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


    On FB last night some nice white lady said that tearing down the statues put her in mind of the Taliban blowing up the Buddhas at Bamiyan.

    (When called out, she did that thing that people do that drives me crazy where they're just like, "It's just what I thought of, I'm not saying they're totally the same, it's just my opinion, gosh why is everyone so upset?" BECAUSE THE FACT THAT THAT'S WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF MEANS YOUR OPINION IS GARBAGE. Maybe if your half-formed word-association brain-dribble, on inspection, is a terrible analogy and basically meaningless, then don't say it out loud.)
    posted by soren_lorensen at 9:42 AM on August 15, 2017 [33 favorites]


    but social media and reality television has taught me that my ignorance is just as important as your knowledge
    posted by entropicamericana at 9:45 AM on August 15, 2017 [36 favorites]


    I work in museums, and I know for a fact that most of us don't want 'em.

    I know someone working for a state historical society that has a Southern Civil War battle flag in its possession. They are preserving it carefully, but it's down in the archives and not on display.

    They know exactly what it would mean to Virginia to have it back, but they are aware of their legal position (very solid) and my friend displayed clear satisfaction that they were able to tell the Virginians to fuck right off.
    posted by wenestvedt at 9:45 AM on August 15, 2017 [19 favorites]


    As far as this virginian is concerned they can keep it.

    I think they're missing an opportunity by not displaying it though. They can honor the preservation mission and display it for the correct sort of viewing if they just add some never-wet and hang it in a urinal.
    posted by phearlez at 9:49 AM on August 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


    I dunno, man, the Facilities budget got cut again this year, and the plumber only works 10:00-3:00. That fixture jams, it could run all night!
    posted by wenestvedt at 9:52 AM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    So, news reports about these statues often report they were installed in the 1920s. This is significant because after WW1, there was a whole industry created for mass produced dough-boy statues.

    I bet if you did round up all the Lee statues, it would make very clear they all were cast from the same mold, and it would showcase just how cheap and tawdry this commemoration of Southern "heritage" really w as.
    posted by ocschwar at 10:03 AM on August 15, 2017 [12 favorites]




    Interesting that this (link to PDF Request for Proposal from City of Charlottesville) is active right now.

    I know the prevailing opinion here at the moment is "tear them down and salt the earth beneath them", which I get, but as a historian and preservationist, I think what Charlottesville is looking to do here is interesting. We're in uncharted territory. I disagree - vehemently - that these statues are "history" or that they should be left in place without any context. And I think - given the actual history of most as a late nineteenth/early twentieth century reinforcement of the Lost Cause narrative and Jim Crow system - there is a good case to be made for completely removing them, if not destroying them entirely. And yet...Poland didn't burn down Auschwitz. They used it as an opportunity to memorialize and educate. That's likely not the right approach for most Confederate monuments across the South, but could it be for some? I'm going to give credit to C-ville for at least giving it a try.
    posted by Preserver at 10:06 AM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    @AnaMardoll has a good Twitter thread on duplicate statues, with photos.
    posted by skymt at 10:08 AM on August 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Auschwitz wasn't built by post-WWII Germans to valorize the Nazis, though. Confederate monuments aren't actually relics from the Confederacy, they're relics from the Jim Crow era.
    posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:09 AM on August 15, 2017 [55 favorites]


    As usual, Josh @TPM has some interesting things to say.
    Lincoln and his war cabinet had little question what Lee deserved. Look at Arlington National Cemetery. That’s Lee’s plantation. The federal government confiscated it and dedicated it as a final resting place for those who died defending the United States. It is a solemn, poetically rich, final and ultimately righteous verdict on his role in our national life. The entire project was very much by design: to punish Lee and shame him in public memory for betraying the United States.
    Also:
    Poland didn't burn down Auschwitz.
    Auschwitz is covered with the ashes of thousands and thousands of people murdered by Nazis, most of them Jewish. Not the same thing at all.
    posted by xyzzy at 10:09 AM on August 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Auschwitz Is a museum. Also largely a recreation. You have to drive to go see it and when you get there they very explicitly remind you of the horrors involved.

    So... make all the plantations slavery museums, the ones that aren't already.
    posted by Artw at 10:12 AM on August 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


    There's certainly a precedent for unwelcome statues being placed in storage, with cultural institutions, after being removed from public display, with no mandate to be displayed by the curators:

    Oh totally. But it costs money to store objects (a whole lot it turns out, and in theory, forever) so many museums would simply say no thanks - especially to the crappy ones - and go right to the pulverize-and-scatter idea. Seriously, some junk from the past is literally junk. And a lot of this stuff is toxic junk. Tax-deductible dollars shouldn't be supporting a preservation effort for toxic junk.
    posted by Miko at 10:12 AM on August 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Auschwitz wasn't built by post-WWII Germans to valorize the Nazis, though. Confederate monuments aren't actually relics from the Confederacy, they're relics from the Jim Crow era.

    I believe I acknowledged that point in my post.
    posted by Preserver at 10:13 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    > I believe I acknowledged that point in my post.

    And then you "on the other hand"-ed it with the point about Auschwitz. This isn't as much of a dilemma as you're making it out to be.
    posted by tonycpsu at 10:16 AM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    That's likely not the right approach for most Confederate monuments across the South, but could it be for some?

    Sure, we'll just make some blacks walk everyday by memorials to their oppression and the murder and rape of ancestors, not all of them.
    posted by chris24 at 10:16 AM on August 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Some concentration camps were actually torn down, and left down, and people still visit the empty lots of gravel or mounds of earth with numbers on and contemplate what happened there. I am okay with this approach also.
    posted by Artw at 10:20 AM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Sure, we'll just make some blacks walk everyday by memorials to their oppression and the murder and rape of ancestors, not all of them.

    Did you even read the RFP? That's not what the proposal is AT ALL.
    posted by Preserver at 10:21 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Fox guest: Confederate flag and LGBTQ pride flag "represent the exact same thing"
    But you know what's really interesting and really incredible irony here is the same people that are demanding that the Confederate flag comes down are the same people that are insisting that the rainbow flag goes up. These two flags represent the exact same thing. That certain people groups are not welcome here. So if Nancy Pelosi wants to say that we're going to start shutting down First Amendment rights of a certain group of people, then what happens the next time that the homosexuals want to walk through an American city and protest and counter protesters come out?
    posted by J.K. Seazer at 10:23 AM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Melt them down, replace every single one with statues of Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, and the many other under_commemorated true heroes of the slavery era.
    posted by emjaybee at 10:23 AM on August 15, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Did you even read the RFP? That's not what the proposal is AT ALL.

    You said: "And yet...Poland didn't burn down Auschwitz. They used it as an opportunity to memorialize and educate. That's likely not the right approach for most Confederate monuments across the South, but could it be for some?"

    You specifically mentioned Auschwitz and how they left it in place and used it for education. Leaving a statue in place — even with some awesome plaque explaining how bad they were — means people whose ancestors suffered grievously at the hands of these people are going to have to see it.
    posted by chris24 at 10:25 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    > Did you even read the RFP? That's not what the proposal is AT ALL.

    The RFP discusses different options with regards to the statues in one town. You're making a broader point, beyond the content of the RFP, about what to do in other situations, with a comparison to a specific instance of another treatment of a historical site in which a specific action was taken. If you're not suggesting that we should be keeping some statues in their current locations and using them to "educate", then you have a responsibility to be clearer about what you're trying to invoke with the comparison to Auschwitz.
    posted by tonycpsu at 10:26 AM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I'll concede his point about the rainbow flag if and only if gay people somehow come into a position of historical power and have a history of rounding up and sometimes killing straight folks in job lots.
    posted by Archelaus at 10:27 AM on August 15, 2017 [20 favorites]


    One thing I'm starting to understand is how my privilige has shielded me from knowing just how dug-in people are to their racism. I never bought "economic anxiety" but I'm still blown away by the mental contortions racists will go through to protect their racism, as evidenced in these conservative-on-the-street opinions on what happened in Charlottesville:

    --this is all a george soros funded plot to make the world socialist
    --this is barack obama's fault, for making the country racially divided
    --the car driver was innocent, leftists were throwing bricks at his car which caused it to go out of control
    --Antifa are like the Nazi brown shirts
    -- the guy who drove the car was a Democrat

    and much, much more. These people aren't Alex Jones. They're not mentally ill. They're, you know, accountants. The PTA. Normal people. But their faith in white supremacy supercedes their faith in any other institution.
    posted by mrmurbles at 10:33 AM on August 15, 2017 [59 favorites]


    I'll concede his point about the rainbow flag if and only if gay people somehow come into a position of historical power and have a history of rounding up and sometimes killing straight folks in job lots.

    Coming next Fall to HBO!
    The Gayfederate States of America: An Alternate History Drama
    posted by Atom Eyes at 10:35 AM on August 15, 2017 [29 favorites]


    Ah yes, the rainbow flag, that century-old symbol of oppression, right there in the halls of infamy next to the olive branch of war and the white dove of genocide. Up is down. White is black.
    posted by Behemoth at 10:35 AM on August 15, 2017 [51 favorites]


    The Gayfederate States of America

    Confabulous States of America, surely.
    posted by Behemoth at 10:36 AM on August 15, 2017 [52 favorites]


    They're not mentally ill. They're, you know, accountants. The PTA. Normal people.

    You know... morons.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 10:37 AM on August 15, 2017 [54 favorites]


    I've been thinking about the destroy vs. educate question for awhile and am increasingly coming down on the education side because there's a huge industry peddling Confederate mythology. People, especially white kids, are going to hear about it and will only get the apologist version.

    That doesn't mean keeping everything or leaving statues in the public square but every state – I was going to say “every Southern state” but I've seen too many battle flags in New England or California for that — should have the equivalent of a Holocaust museum loaded with primary sources showing the full trauma involved. It's a lot harder to defend the Lee mythos when you hear the visceral details how he treated enslaved people.

    I think some of these statues would fit well in an exhibit explicitly recognizing the campaign to remake the narrative in the early 1900s.

    For public places with significance like former slave market sites, etc. there's a real power to the location and it seems like the best approach would be to remove anything which commemorates a person but always replace it with a monument explaining what happened so anyone who has the Lost Cause spin has as many opportunities as possible to question it, especially during childhood before their viewpoint starts to ossify.
    posted by adamsc at 10:37 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Hey, remember Benedict Arnold? The man was a genuine war hero, especially at the Battle of Saratoga.

    And then he committed treason against his country.

    The national park at the Saratoga battlefield site even has a monument to the man. Of course, it is only a depiction of an officer's boot, and the inscription does not even mention his name. The victory monument at the battlefield contains four niches for statues of the victorious generals; one is empty.

    We don't have to put statues of traitors up on actual, literal pedestals. Refusing to tolerate memorials to traitors, those who committed treason in defense of slavery, is not erasing history. It's recognizing history.
    posted by Gelatin at 10:37 AM on August 15, 2017 [57 favorites]


    The Gayfederate States of America

    Confabulous States of America, surely.


    I'd watch the hell out of either of these.
    posted by chris24 at 10:39 AM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    we wouldn't kill breeders in job lots, you'd be used to manufacture more gay babies that we can indoctrinate somehow. it's all in the gay agenda, see section 69, paragraph 00.

    If you think 69 leads to insemination you're seriously behind on how straight people reproduction works
    posted by phearlez at 10:39 AM on August 15, 2017 [22 favorites]


    i just found out my alma mater, cal, is hiring a new chancellor who wants to make "make the 2017-18 school year “a free speech year,” she said. “I’m going to create kind of a point-counterpoint series in which I’ll invite people who have really different views to come and debate one another because I think what we have to do is model what conversation looks like between individuals who have strongly differing points of view.”"

    cool, cuz inviting MORE nazis and white nationalists to berkeley is just what we need. thanks for nothing
    posted by burgerrr at 10:44 AM on August 15, 2017 [19 favorites]


    The National Review called for the removal of Confederate monuments. I consider that significant progress.
    posted by msalt at 10:47 AM on August 15, 2017 [30 favorites]


    But their function was never to be monuments to history, but instead revisions of history, representations of a white supremacist worldview that rejects the historical consensus on the Civil War and on American racism and instead tries to pretend is is a story of honor and heroism.

    I think that's an unintentional side effect. At the time, it was a lot simpler - they were big middle fingers in the faces of people trying to make things better. Big in-your-face images of spite, reminding you how powerless you are and futile your efforts are. Then, as now, it was just about trolling and "liberal tears".
    posted by ctmf at 10:47 AM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Wilco Responds To Charlottesville Violence With New Benefit Song
    A new Wilco song called "All Lives, You Say?" is available for immediate download with a charitable contribution. Proceeds will go to the Southern Poverty Law Center, in the memory of Jeff Tweedy's father, Robert L. Tweedy (1933-2017).

    "My dad was named after a Civil War general, and he voted for Barack Obama twice. He used to say 'If you know better, you can do better.' America - we know better. We can do better." - Jeff Tweedy
    posted by nicebookrack at 10:49 AM on August 15, 2017 [43 favorites]


    “I’m going to create kind of a point-counterpoint series in which I’ll invite people who have really different views to come and debate one another because I think what we have to do is model what conversation looks like between individuals who have strongly differing points of view.”

    There is no point debating people who refuse to argue in good faith. To even try is to afford nonsense rhetoric a respect it does not deserve.

    So, for example, if a Lost Cause person tried the whole "but the Civil War was about states rights!" schtick, and the moderator stopped debate and informed the audience of the Cornerstone speech in which the Confederate leadership made quite clear at the time that it was about slavery, that's one thing. But to turn over the campus to a puke funnel of talk-radio nonsense does not a "debate" make.
    posted by Gelatin at 10:49 AM on August 15, 2017 [23 favorites]


    White nationalists are awful people, but at least they'll help us fight the Weeping Angels.

    I'd find myself rooting for the Angels in those circumstances.


    Whooooa there. Hold the phone, Joan. Do not sent white nationalists back even further into the past where they can use their knowledge of their future to fuck around with our present.
    posted by duffell at 10:49 AM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Josh Marshall just posted a follow-up to yesterday's excellent piece about ongoing efforts to conceal the linkage between the statues and the Lost Cause myth:

    The Battle For Memory and Forgetting Started Immediately
    Here we see the beginnings of confederate nostalgia, from the first born in violence, especially against black citizens but also northerners and Union troops as well. We also see the battle for the post-war settlement and memory which in many respects they eventually won.

    Here is an at length portion of Thomas’s report. The key portion is the part which begins with this sentence which I have bolded below:”The controlling cause of the unsettled condition of affairs in the Department is that the greatest efforts made by the defeated insurgents since the close of the war have been to promulgate the idea that the cause of liberty, justice, humanity-, equality, and all the calendar of virtues of freedmen, suffered violence and wrong when the effort for Southern independence failed.”
    [...] The controlling cause of the unsettled condition of affairs in the Department is that the greatest efforts made by the defeated insurgents since the close of the war have been to promulgate the idea that the cause of liberty, justice, humanity, equality, and all the calendar of virtues of freedmen, suffered violence and wrong when the effort for Southern independence failed. This is of course intended as a species of political cant, whereby the crime of treason might be covered with a counterfeit varnish of patriotism, so that the precipitators of rebellion might go down in history hand in hand with the defenders of the Government, thus wiping out with their own hands their own stains. This species of self-forgiveness is amazing in its efficiency, when it is considered that life and property were justly forfeited by the laws of the country, of war and of nations. [...]
    posted by tonycpsu at 10:52 AM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    For Pete's sake. I'm not saying that concentration camps and Confederate monuments are equivalent or should at all be treated in the same way.

    I'm saying that Charlottesville is engaging in a process to actually ask the community - ESPECIALLY POC - how they want to deal with these monuments. That they aren't assuming what POC will want. In my professional capacity, I've worked with a number of American Indian tribes on sensitive sites that have a long and painful history to those tribes. And I've learned to listen rather than assume what they want or dictate what is best for them. And sometimes (sometimes) they don't always want that evidence erased, but the chance to use it...to tell the story of what happened in the hopes someone will learn something from it. And we respect that process and that decision. Much as we respect Poland's decision to use Auschwitz to memorialize and educate, when they would have been absolutely justified in wiping it off the face of the earth and barring anyone from ever going there again.
    posted by Preserver at 10:52 AM on August 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


    If you think 69 leads to insemination you're seriously behind on how straight people reproduction works

    pssssst it's the gay agenda.

    all the sections are number 69

    working out which one is relevant to any particular topic at any given time is occasionally slightly tricky but y'know, we make do

    posted by sciatrix at 10:52 AM on August 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Per sciatrix's action item to call local authorities and ask, "What is your game plan if this happens here?" I've drafted the following to ask my local Chief of Police (I'm in California). Please feel free to copy, adapt, and/or point out errors or improvements.

    1. Is there a game plan for the [City] Police strategy to handle an alt-right/white supremacists rally or march in our city?

    1a. Residents in presumptively No Issue locations such as Los Angeles and San Francisco cannot lawfully carry a concealed firearm, but residents from other counties with more permissive CCW [Concealed Carry Weapons] issuance policies can lawfully carry within these same jurisdictions. Is there a game plan for figuring out whether an alt-right/white supremacist gathering is better armed than the [City] Police? In this situation, is there a game plan for how the [City] Police will protect [City] residents who peacefully protest an alt-right/white supremacist gathering?

    b. Many law enforcement members across the country have ignored alt-right/white supremacist acts of violence. What measures have you taken to ensure that the [City] Police will act with impartiality?
    posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 10:56 AM on August 15, 2017 [27 favorites]


    pssssst it's the gay agenda.

    all the sections are number 69


    I was led to believe there was also number 77 because sometimes you get 8 more
    posted by phearlez at 11:00 AM on August 15, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Interesting point by Rich Lowry in that National Review editorial. TIL
    [Robert E.] Lee himself opposed building Confederate monuments in the immediate aftermath of the war. “I think it wiser,” he said, “not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavoured to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered.” After Charlottesville, it’s time to revisit his advice.
    posted by msalt at 11:04 AM on August 15, 2017 [17 favorites]


    > In my professional capacity, I've worked with a number of American Indian tribes on sensitive sites that have a long and painful history to those tribes. And I've learned to listen rather than assume what they want or dictate what is best for them. And sometimes (sometimes) they don't always want that evidence erased, but the chance to use it...to tell the story of what happened in the hopes someone will learn something from it. And we respect that process and that decision

    Even assuming we can trust that the processes by which Charlottesville will, as you seem to believe, take the concerns of "especially POC" into account -- and that's a pretty big leap of faith in my opinion given how long these statues have stood and the history -- I don't think the resolution of this problem is only up to the residents of Charlottesville, but to all Americans. Just as home rule was suspended after the war, and just as federal law (prior to the Roberts Court, anyway) recognized that certain communities in the South can't be afforded the same levels of self-determination as others with respect to holding fair elections, I would argue that many communities in the South are incapable of fairly judging the impact of building or preserving monuments to Confederate traitors.

    Now, I don't actually believe the federal government would step in to tell Charlottesville residents what they can and can't do in their municipality -- certainly not this federal government -- but the issue of monuments to those who led a rebellion against the federal government should not be considered the exclusive concern of those who live near those monuments.
    posted by tonycpsu at 11:06 AM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    [Robert E.] Lee himself opposed building Confederate monuments in the immediate aftermath of the war.

    If memory serves me correctly, Lee regarded the South's defeat as the judgment of God and considered the question settled.
    posted by Gelatin at 11:10 AM on August 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Every loser is a fatalist, I imagine.
    posted by Barack Spinoza at 11:14 AM on August 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


    I hesitate to appear to tell communities what they "should" do when I'm not there, but one tactic I don't see being used much is to just make those statues consume resources like a black hole. Make them too expensive. Damage them, vandalize them, even threaten to do so at specified times in the future so they need guarding. Continuously, relentlessly. How much money is it worth to you, city? (this approach is not without personal risk, of course)
    posted by ctmf at 11:16 AM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    As an alumnus of UNC Chapel Hill, I just wrote a letter to the Chancellor of the university, along with the President of the UNC system, urging them to remove the University's own memorial to atrocity -- Silent Sam -- from the upper quad.

    Naturally, North Carolina being in the fucked up grip of the right wing, there was a law specifically passed to help keep these things from being torn down. Now you need permission from the North Carolina Historical Commission to remove memorial statues from public land. So I copied them on it as well.

    If anyone wants the text of my message, PM me and I'll share. I don't want to spam here.
    posted by jammer at 11:19 AM on August 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


    I don't think the resolution of this problem is only up to the residents of Charlottesville, but to all Americans.

    The Charlottesville City Council already voted to remove the statue back in February. They haven't been able to remove it yet, however, because of a conservative lawsuit and blockage from the VA General Assembly.

    BTW, the VA General Assembly is the state legislature, which is disproportionately and notoriously conservative, in large part due to gerrymandering. VA as a whole has gone blue in the last three presidential elections, has democratic senators, my city (in NOVA) is basically as blue as an area gets, etc. Doesn't matter in terms of the General Assembly, though. And in general, the state is very divided.

    Anyway, here's a quote from an NYT article about it:

    But in February, the City Council voted to remove the statue from the park. Opponents of the move sued in March, arguing that the city did not have the authority to do so under state law.

    There are very similar issues all over Virginia. And I doubt just Virginia.
    posted by rue72 at 11:28 AM on August 15, 2017 [9 favorites]


    The issue with a vandalism campaign (as much as I like the idea) is two-fold, I think.

    One, much of this country worships at the altar of don't rock the boat and don't break my stuff. We've seen in great detail how much cover people take under the guise of worrying about property damage. Yeah, some of that is a fig leaf over overt racism but most of it is that background-radiation racism of thinking that disordering their daily lives is worse than just letting oppression happen. So there's a certain danger in all these statists who will ignore racial improvements so long as they are not inconvenienced transitioning to being impediments if their sense of a calm and ordered life is disturbed. My general feeling is fuck them but we may actually be at an inflection point right now with these things so I dislike the idea of losing that momentum to these human speed bumps.

    Two, the American justice system has a lot of latitude when it comes to how hard they go after people for things. These sorts of shenanigans in unsympathetic areas could get you way worse penalties than you would for breaking shit racists care less about. Not to mention the not insignificant number of racists who have become part of the police force and who might be particularly rough/fatal if they get a chance to apprehend someone in the middle of doing this stuff.
    posted by phearlez at 11:28 AM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    cui bono: Anybody got like the best scholarly source that's just like, are you kidding me, of course the war was about slavery, to post to this idiot?

    There is a web site at www.confederatepastpresent.org which says:
    The Confederate Truths’ web site, in association with the Winter Institute, is an Internet extension of the book, "The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader: 'The Great Truth' about The 'Lost Cause," ....

    In the preparation of the book, a great many primary historical documents were found and less than half could be included in the book, so this web site is for those documents that weren’t included in the book.

    ....

    The historical documents selected are not those of marginal individuals or groups in society. Instead they are documents produced by prominent individuals, leaders both political and otherwise, elected officials, governmental bodies, and major organizations, including neo-Confederate organizations and publications. They can be said to be representative of Confederate and neo-Confederate opinion or a major segment of it.
    So this seems like a good source for people wanting primary texts demonstrating that the Civil War was a direct result of southern states wanting to protect slavery.
    posted by wenestvedt at 11:30 AM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Preserver: Much as we respect Poland's decision to use Auschwitz to memorialize and educate, when they would have been absolutely justified in wiping it off the face of the earth and barring anyone from ever going there again.

    Preserver,
    I don't think the complicated history of the preservation of Auschwitz can be helpfully reduced to what we think "they" would have been justified in doing to the site at any point after the liberation. (Not trying to pile on - but....there is a a"law"...!)

    Below is from a very thoughtful 2010 Smithsonian magazine article:

    Ever since the Auschwitz memorial and museum first opened to the public, in 1947, workers have repaired and rebuilt the place. The barbed wire that rings the camps must be continuously replaced as it rusts. In the 1950s, construction crews repairing the crumbling gas chamber at the main Auschwitz camp removed one of the original walls. Most recently, the staff has had to deal with crime and vandalism. This past December, the Arbeit Macht Frei sign was stolen by thieves, who intended to sell it to a collector. Although the sign was recovered, it was cut into three pieces and will need to be repaired.

    Inevitably, Auschwitz will grow less authentic with the passage of time. “You’re seeing basically a reconstruction on an original site,” says van Pelt, the historian. “It’s a place that constantly needs to be rebuilt in order to remain a ruin for us.”

    He is not the only one to argue against wholesale preservation of the camp. A 1958 proposal called for paving a 230-foot-wide, 3,200-foot-long asphalt road diagonally across the main
    Auschwitz camp and letting the rest of the ruins crumble, forcing visitors to “confront oblivion” and realize they could not fully comprehend the atrocities committed there. The concept was unanimously accepted by the memorial design committee—and roundly rejected by survivors, who felt the plan lacked any expression of remembrance...


    Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/can-auschwitz-be-saved-4650863/
    posted by Jody Tresidder at 11:31 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Even assuming we can trust that the processes by which Charlottesville will, as you seem to believe, take the concerns of "especially POC" into account -- and that's a pretty big leap of faith in my opinion given how long these statues have stood and the history -- I don't think the resolution of this problem is only up to the residents of Charlottesville, but to all Americans. Just as home rule was suspended after the war, and just as federal law (prior to the Roberts Court, anyway) recognized that certain communities in the South can't be afforded the same levels of self-determination as others with respect to holding fair elections, I would argue that many communities in the South are incapable of fairly judging the impact of building or preserving monuments to Confederate traitors.

    It's certainly a valid concern, given the history of the South, and while I would note that the RFP very specifically requires engagement with underrepresented communities, it's true that much will depend on how that is defined and executed, and who is doing the engagement (our work with the tribes is, sadly, not the standard approach).

    I guess my followup question would be...who are "all Americans"? If you acknowledge that it isn't the federal government (and the 45 admin getting a say in this gives me the shivers), then what's the mechanism for decision-making...do we vote? Given what happened last November, and based on my decidedly non-Southern FB feed, I'm a bit gun-shy about trusting all Americans to fairly judge the impact of building or preserving monuments to Confederate traitors.
    posted by Preserver at 11:37 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Personally, I have no problem with people toppling the statues. Turning them into rubble is the best thing for them.

    But the thing is that this statue is just a rallying point for people who are eager to turn anything into a shrine for their hate, infect anything. So while it's necessary to get rid of the statues, it's also tragically insufficient.

    It's strange and uncomfortable to know your enemy so intimately, know them inside and out to the point that you are one of them in some ways, share their home and god forbid even a lot of their culture. But still understand that they would and could turn on you and kill you in a heartbeat.

    It's very difficult to know what to do with an enemy like that. And I think that focusing on the statues somewhat avoids the question.

    I feel like the statues are just a symptom and focusing on a symptom too myopically is just a way of avoiding facing the disease.
    posted by rue72 at 11:39 AM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


    @tonykchoi has a very good thread on why it's essential to tear down monuments to oppression: This was the Japanese General Government in Seoul. It was a beautifl neoclassical architecture designed by Georg De Lalande, a German.
    posted by Lexica at 11:39 AM on August 15, 2017 [25 favorites]


    So Dinesh D'Souza is trying to promote his newest book The Big Lie: The Left Are The Real Nazis Blah Blah Etc., and I will never stop cackling at this because I am super petty:
    @DineshDSouza: [[photo of The Big Lie in a story display]] This argument is more relevant than ever as the media left tries to use #Charlottesville to promote its Big Lies about fascism & Nazism

    @emmettrensin: Dinesh did you cover up all the other books in the display with your book to make it look like there were stacks and stacks of them?
    posted by nicebookrack at 11:41 AM on August 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


    But the thing is that this statue is just a rallying point for people who are eager to turn anything into a shrine for their hate, infect anything. So while it's necessary to get rid of the statues, it's also tragically insufficient.
    ...
    I feel like the statues are just a symptom and focusing on a symptom too myopically is just a way of avoiding facing the disease.


    Certainly shouldn't be to the exclusion of anything else, but I think this weekend has shown quite well that having them persist as a rally point makes them not just a symptom but also a focal point for further rot. They are metaphorically the bullet that was not removed and which is now leaching lead into the body's bloodstream, or perhaps generating more scar tissue rather than just lying inert.
    posted by phearlez at 11:48 AM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Didn't Jonah Goldberg write that same damn stupid book a decade ago?
    posted by octothorpe at 11:49 AM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Didn't Jonah Goldberg write that same damn stupid book a decade ago?

    Yes, and the purpose was the same: To indulge in the usual conservative practice of projection.

    (If memory serves me correctly, Goldberg also said he was annoyed by liberals who called conservatives fascist. How's that working out for you these days, pal?)
    posted by Gelatin at 11:53 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    The book of my enemy has been remaindered / And I am pleased.
    posted by nicebookrack at 11:56 AM on August 15, 2017 [15 favorites]


    Meet the Navy ships named in honor of the Confederacy

    Minor clarification: Naming the 2nd Hunley was about submarine history, not Confederate history. Sill not the best.
    posted by ctmf at 11:58 AM on August 15, 2017


    This is a good first-person account of the events from a clergy member who was present: What I saw in Charlottesville.
    Along with Congregate C’ville, there were other groups protesting the message of white supremacy and Naziism. I was deeply impressed with the Black Lives Matter participants. They went into the middle of the fray and stood strong and resilient against vicious attacks, insults, spitting, pepper spray, tear gas, and hurled objects. It’s deeply disgusting to see BLM be vilified on Fox News and other conservative outlets after watching them comport themselves with courage in the face of vile hatred this weekend. . .

    The young age of many of the white supremacists and Nazis suggests two things to me: first, that young white people are being radicalized in America today, radicalized to the point of using the ISIS tactic of killing people with a car; and second, that this problem isn’t going away fast – especially if radicalizing influences continue or increase their activities among younger generations.

    What does this mean?

    First, it means that white mothers, fathers, grandparents, wives, husbands, sisters, brothers, children, and pastors need to speak up when their loved ones are being radicalized. Every white American family needs to realize that radicalization isn’t simply something that happens in the Middle East – it is happening today, in Ohio and Kentucky and Florida and Virginia. And make no mistake, these are radical groups, seeking to unite and fight together.
    posted by threeturtles at 11:59 AM on August 15, 2017 [42 favorites]


    Sounds like a good base to throw flour onto. Then set on fire

    Or bird seed. (Without the fire).
    posted by Buntix at 11:59 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I think this story articulates a good path forward for the statues: The "Progressive Liberal" Wipes His Butt With The Confederate Flag
    posted by tonycpsu at 12:03 PM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Certainly shouldn't be to the exclusion of anything else, but I think this weekend has shown quite well that having them persist as a rally point makes them not just a symptom but also a focal point for further rot. They are metaphorically the bullet that was not removed and which is now leaching lead into the body's bloodstream, or perhaps generating more scar tissue rather than just lying inert.

    I agree. I just find revenge fantasies against the literal statues self-indulgent, a way of reducing the "conflict" into something more concrete and manageable than it is.

    These are statues already slated for removal and/or destruction by many of the people who actually have to look at them every day. The problem isn't that there isn't the will to get rid of them, it's that the state's institutions are supporting not only their preservation but the preservation of the ideals they represent. So attacking the state's institutions and forcing the state to tear them down seems like a more triumphant and meaningful scenario to me.

    Your mileage will vary.
    posted by rue72 at 12:04 PM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]




    Charlottesville: Race and Terror - VICE News Tonight on HBO. Link to full video on Facbook.

    Elle Reeve and crew accompany and interview white supremacist Brian Cantwell over the weekend in Charlottesville.
    posted by jgirl at 12:07 PM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    make all the plantations slavery museums

    I was just thinking this!
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:11 PM on August 15, 2017


    They know exactly what it would mean to Virginia to have it back, but they are aware of their legal position (very solid) and my friend displayed clear satisfaction that they were able to tell the Virginians to fuck right off.

    Last time it came up Governor Mark Dayton got in a very Mark Dayton style burn:
    The governor of Virginia earlier this year requested that the flag be loaned, quote, unquote, to Virginia to commemorate – it doesn’t quite strike me as something they would want to commemorate, but we declined that invitation.
    posted by nathan_teske at 12:13 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    This is a statement from Congregation Beth Israel in Charlottesville: In Charlottesville, the Local Jewish Community Presses On. It's frightening. A sample:
    On Saturday morning, I stood outside our synagogue with the armed security guard we hired after the police department refused to provide us with an officer during morning services. (Even the police department’s limited promise of an observer near our building was not kept — and note, we did not ask for protection of our property, only our people as they worshipped).

    Forty congregants were inside. Here’s what I witnessed during that time.

    For half an hour, three men dressed in fatigues and armed with semi-automatic rifles stood across the street from the temple. Had they tried to enter, I don’t know what I could have done to stop them, but I couldn’t take my eyes off them, either. Perhaps the presence of our armed guard deterred them. Perhaps their presence was just a coincidence, and I’m paranoid. I don’t know.
    ...
    Soon, we learned that Nazi websites had posted a call to burn our synagogue. I sat with one of our rabbis and wondered whether we should go back to the temple to protect the building. What could I do if I were there? Fortunately, it was just talk – but we had already deemed such an attack within the realm of possibilities, taking the precautionary step of removing our Torahs, including a Holocaust scroll, from the premises.

    Again: This is in America in 2017.
    ...
    And yet, in the midst of all that, other moments stand out for me, as well.

    John Aguilar, a 30-year Navy veteran, took it upon himself to stand watch over the synagogue through services Friday evening and Saturday, along with our armed guard. He just felt he should.

    We experienced wonderful turnout for services both Friday night and Saturday morning to observe Shabbat, including several non-Jews who said they came to show solidarity (though a number of congregants, particularly elderly ones, told me they were afraid to come to synagogue).

    A frail, elderly woman approached me Saturday morning as I stood on the steps in front of our sanctuary, crying, to tell me that while she was Roman Catholic, she wanted to stay and watch over the synagogue with us. At one point, she asked, “Why do they hate you?” I had no answer to the question we’ve been asking ourselves for thousands of years.
    posted by zachlipton at 12:13 PM on August 15, 2017 [146 favorites]


    Thanks zachlipton. Sure got dusty in here in a hurry.
    posted by kokaku at 12:19 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Minor clarification: Naming the 2nd Hunley was about submarine history, not Confederate history. Sill not the best.

    To be fair, the original Hunley killed over four times as many Confederates as it did Union sailors.
    posted by ckape at 12:20 PM on August 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


    Soon, we learned that Nazi websites had posted a call to burn our synagogue. I sat with one of our rabbis and wondered whether we should go back to the temple to protect the building. What could I do if I were there? Fortunately, it was just talk – but we had already deemed such an attack within the realm of possibilities, taking the precautionary step of removing our Torahs, including a Holocaust scroll, from the premises.
    The hell is wrong with these people? Threatening to burn a synagogue? Gaaaaah.

    I know that people are terrible, and I don't expect much from anyone, but I am still depressed when I think about the calm with which these white supremacist, hate-everyone shitbags do stuff like threatening to burn down someone's place of worship.
    posted by wenestvedt at 12:20 PM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Sigh. So let's forget Auschwitz. Let's look closer to home.

    Mt. Pleasant Industrial Boarding School

    (not self-linking, I haven't worked with this tribe)

    Most tribes identify the Indian Boarding Schools as one of the most painful and damaging episodes in the history of US Indian policy. Every member of the tribal community lives with the historical legacy and the physical presence of the school in their community, on their tribal lands. Who here would have denied the Saginaw Chippewa Tribe their right to pull that thing down brick by brick and pulverize whatever was left over (and if they'd wanted to tear it down, I'd have donated hammers)? Yet that's not what they chose to do. They went through a process to determine what they wanted to do with it, and, in this case, chose to use it as an opportunity to memorialize and educate.

    Again, I will try to emphasize that I am not in favor of leaving up every (or most, or even any) Confederate statue(s), and in no circumstances do I think they should be left in their present context (as memorializations of a "Lost Cause" sitting up on a pedestal). But I do think there is some room for, as Charlottesville is doing, going through a process of asking the community what they want to do with them, and being open to something in between "fold like cardboard" and "leave as is." [And yes, I note that Cville city council did vote to remove them, but given that is not an option at the moment, this seems a better alternative than the status quo.]

    And since I want to avoid the dreaded thread-sitting (and I need to actually get some work done), I'll leave the topic there.
    posted by Preserver at 12:25 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Soon, we learned that Nazi websites had posted a call to burn our synagogue

    Where are they hosted? Who owns those domains? What is the name of every contributor?

    Name. Shame. Shut them down.
    posted by Room 641-A at 12:25 PM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    It's not just "someone's place of worship" to them. They're marching around as modern-day Nazis. Wiping out the Jews is up there in their priorities. In all this discussion of race, let's not forget the antisemitism (which has been brought up at points in this thread).
    posted by kokaku at 12:25 PM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    I am still depressed when I think about the calm with which these white supremacist, hate-everyone shitbags do stuff like threatening to burn down someone's place of worship.

    They're literal Nazis, they're bent on literal extermination of human beings.

    They murdered one, injured many others, and damn straight they would have preferred to murder more. Luckily, they got cold feet or were "unlucky" in how their attacks panned out, I guess. Of course, then the president continued to embolden them.
    posted by rue72 at 12:26 PM on August 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


    In other shit news, someone has vandalized the god-damn Lincoln Memorial.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:27 PM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Mt. Pleasant, like Auschwitz, like the plantations of the south, is a place where horrors happened. It is of value to preserve this places, to force us to confront them, to refuse to deny their reality, to make us bow our heads and vow never to let such a thing happen again.

    The Confederate monuments are merely obscene gestures built long after the events they ostensibly commemorate, using a thin veneer of history to excuse their true nature as deliberate symbols of oppression and hatred. Destroy them.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 12:29 PM on August 15, 2017 [23 favorites]


    Mt. Pleasant, like Auschwitz, like the plantations of the south, is a place where horrors happened. It is of value to preserve this places, to force us to confront them, to refuse to deny their reality, to make us bow our heads and vow never to let such a thing happen again.

    Well, as for the efficacy of that, I'll mention that many of those plantations are being used for FUCKING WEDDINGS! ( I hate people )
    posted by mikelieman at 12:31 PM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    I think it would be awesome if people tore down Confederate war memorials, sold the metal for scrap, then used those proceeds to pay for medical and legal bills of those injured by attacks and jailed for standing against neo-Nazis.

    I'm sure we have enough documentation of those memorials to record that yes, they existed, for historical purposes. Or if you really wanted to document the exact details of the monument, make a 3D scan of it, and there you go, the monument has really been documented. Now tear it down and recycle it.
    posted by filthy light thief at 12:38 PM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    make all the plantations slavery museums, the ones that aren't already.

    There's basically only one: The Whitney Plantation Museum, outside of New Orleans. And it opened in 2015. Plantation/estates like Mt Vernon, Stratford Hall (where Robert E Lee was born) and Monticello were all pretty glacial in acknowledging slavery as part of the history of the place (Monticello added an app for tours in 2015 (and just last month there was a bit of a dust-up because aracheologists found Sally Hemmings' quarters and the mainstream news still persists in referring to her as Jefferson's 'mistress'...). And if you want a sense of what it's like to work there and represent the history, see Ask A Slave.

    For those looking to read more about how slavery has been overlooked in favor of romanticizing plantations, I highly recommend Tara McPherson's Reconstructing Dixie: Race, Gender, and Nostalgia in the Imagined South. And for a landmark work on the erasure of slavery in remembering the Civil War, see David W. Blight's Race and Reunion.
    posted by TwoStride at 12:39 PM on August 15, 2017 [23 favorites]


    > The people who took down the statue in Durham are gonna need a legal defense fund.

    Durham Sheriff Identifying Demonstrators, Pursuing Felony Charges
    posted by research monkey at 1:00 PM on August 15, 2017


    on the vice show, posted above

    omg that nazi that the journalist follows around needs to be arrested STAT. he called the death of Heather Heyer a victory and "more than justified". showed her his gun collection that he carries on his person. these people were truly out for blood. i can't believe the general casual attitude of the police.

    i just.
    posted by waitangi at 1:00 PM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Durham Sheriff Identifying Demonstrators, Pursuing Felony Charges

    What a piece of shit sheriff.
    posted by kittensofthenight at 1:03 PM on August 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


    I feel like the statues are just a symptom and focusing on a symptom too myopically is just a way of avoiding facing the disease.

    This quote from an article in The Atlantic "The Stubborn Persistence of Confederate Monuments" is worth sharing as a part of this conversation.
    “A timeline of the genesis of the Confederate sites shows two notable spikes. One comes around the turn of the 20th century, just after Plessy v. Ferguson, and just as many Southern states were establishing repressive race laws. The second runs from the mid-1950s to the mid-1960s—the peak of the civil-rights movement. In other words, the erection of Confederate monuments has been a way to perform cultural resistance to black equality.
    posted by Fizz at 1:06 PM on August 15, 2017 [32 favorites]


    Where have you gone, Joe Arpai-i-i-o/
    The [aryan] nation turns its loony eyes to you/
    Ooo-oo-oo.

    posted by wenestvedt at 1:06 PM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    The most deserved fate for these statues is also the most likely: to slowly rot in some back lot next to rusted cars and the collapsed chicken house, buried in kudzu and discovered by some teen in 2061 who saws off the head and uses it as a bong.
    posted by chortly at 1:07 PM on August 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


    "You take a mega vape through his EYEBALL!"
    posted by Annika Cicada at 1:09 PM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    If, as seems to be the conservative argument now, the statues are an essential reminder of the past, put a statue of Sherman on top of Stone Mountain that depicts him with his foot on Johnny Reb's neck. Let the statues accurately reflect the history.
    posted by The Notorious SRD at 1:12 PM on August 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


    "You take a mega vape through his EYEBALL!"

    maga vape, surely
    posted by entropicamericana at 1:14 PM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Way upthread, but

    Metafilter: maybe if your half-formed word-association brain-dribble, on inspection, is a terrible analogy and basically meaningless, then don't say it out loud.

    posted by aspersioncast at 1:16 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    That Vice piece is the most amazing/terrifying piece of journalism. I had to keep pausing it to calm down.
    posted by emjaybee at 1:17 PM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Confederate statues shouldn't be toppled.

    First, they should be gathered together and placed in some separate but equal facility, like a deteriorating school.

    Then people who want to see them should be charged a poll tax, and then be required to take a literacy test.

    Those who pass will be roped off and told to wait.

    After several hours of waiting they will be told the museum is closed.
    posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:18 PM on August 15, 2017 [104 favorites]


    Also I wonder how many more Nazis will be ID'd from that video
    posted by emjaybee at 1:18 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    This Trump press conference in the lobby of Trump Tower is an honest-to-god actual shitshow. He's doubling down making a moral equivalency between the alt-right ("You give me a definition," he actually demanded) racists and the alt-left. Equating taking down statues of Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson, and erasing George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

    It's completely insane.
    posted by Guy Smiley at 1:18 PM on August 15, 2017 [14 favorites]


    I think your link needs fixing, threeturtles - your excerpt is from What I Saw In Charlottesville by Brian McLaren.
    posted by Rash at 1:21 PM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Also, he has one of the largest wineries in the United States. [Real]
    posted by Room 641-A at 1:22 PM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I think we're doing the reaction to the Trump press conference stuff in the general US politics thread.
    posted by zachlipton at 1:24 PM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Ah, thanks.
    posted by Guy Smiley at 1:27 PM on August 15, 2017


    Oops, sorry!
    posted by Room 641-A at 1:28 PM on August 15, 2017


    I dunno, I kinda like the statue in Durham now. It just needs a new plaque. Something like: "Dedicated to the Eternal Failure of racists, white supremacists, klansmen, nazis, and all others whose hearts are filled with hate, everywhere."

    as for all the other statues, melt them into a similar horrid heap right in the middle of the biggest intersection in Charlottesville, so all the drivers have to drive around it at some point. Same plaque, big, all four sides.
    posted by sexyrobot at 1:47 PM on August 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


    The most deserved fate for these statues is also the most likely: to slowly rot in some back lot next to rusted cars and the collapsed chicken house, buried in kudzu

    This reminds me of the 99% Invisible podcast episode about the small town of Boscawen, NH, and its decaying monument to Hannah Duston--the first American woman honored with a statue, and one whose legacy is as complicated as the Confederacy by questions about racism, gender, colonialism, violence, and the political narrative of history. From the 99pi transcript:
    The monument in Boscawen is often covered in graffiti; Duston’s nose has been shot off with a rifle. Every few years someone proposes to tear it down, or clean it up, or amend the signage to tell more of the history. With every proposal comes a public argument. Is she a heroine, or is she a villain?

    The debate continues, but for now, the monument on the island remains neglected and crumbling. It’s fitting, too, as that’s probably the most accurate symbol of how people feel about Hannah Duston today — ambivalent about who she was, but not quite ready to let her go.
    Maybe a good way to treat Confederate statues while they're still under debate is to purposefully neglect them: stop cleaning them, stop repairing cracks, stop protecting them from weather, stop allocating money to their upkeep. Put out birdfeeders to coat the monuments in pigeon poop. Muffle the statues' faces in native lichens. Let everything crumble into moss-coated decay. Look on the Confederacy's works, ye mighty, and despair.
    posted by nicebookrack at 1:48 PM on August 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Taqiyah Thompson, who put one of the ropes around the Durham statue was just arrested, and the Sheriff says other arrests are being made. I haven't seen a link to a bail or legal defense fund for Durham, if anyone knows of any.
    posted by zachlipton at 1:49 PM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    make all the plantations slavery museums, the ones that aren't already.

    There's basically only one: The Whitney Plantation Museum,


    I do want to shout out the National Park Service-run plantations for representing slavery with a high degree of accuracy and inclusion in the central narrative, at least and especially since the late 1990s. Many are very interesting, like Kingsley, where the plantation owner impregnated and married one of his Senegalese slaves, Anna Madgigine Jai; he eventually freed her, and she became a plantation and slave owner herself, in a complex story of intersecting race and social status and shifting power arrangements in early Florida. Magnolia Plantation and Oakland Plantation (at Cane River Creole NP) have also done good work sharing a wider picture of enslaved life . I wouldn't say the NPS is wildly and amazingly focused on the enslaved people of these plantations as Whitney is, but there has been focused and concerted effort by decent people (including really good historians and archaeologists) in many of these sites and it has transformed interpretation. The picture you get at these NPS plantations is much fuller and more accurate than that you get at almost any other plantation that's privately run.
    posted by Miko at 1:54 PM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


    you straight people are silly folk.
    we wouldn't kill breeders in job lots, you'd be used to manufacture more gay babies that we can indoctrinate somehow. it's all in the gay agenda, see section 69, paragraph 00.


    I thought the gay agenda started around 2ish...you know, after all-you-can-drink brunch at Hamburger Mary's.
    posted by sexyrobot at 1:56 PM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    The monument in Boscawen is often covered in graffiti; Duston’s nose has been shot off with a rifle.

    I was just thinking about how I had added yet another item to my list of things about the Roman Empire that used to baffle me but now I understand. The other day it was electing horses to the Senate -- yes, sure, a horse would be way better than at least 50% of our senators! And now it's all those Roman statues without noses or heads, vile racists and colonialists to the man, smashed by locals as soon as the empire's back was turned, left to rot in fields for millennia. With any luck, our country too will eventually be filled with noseless stone heads rolling beneath the plows.
    posted by chortly at 1:56 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    And now it's all those Roman statues without noses or heads, vile racists and colonialists to the man, smashed by locals as soon as the empire's back was turned, left to rot in fields for millennia.

    Those same locals that upheld Roman law and customs, called their countries Holy Roman Empire or kept speaking Low Latin, I assume. I've spent a few days retweeting Mary Beard's tweets about how having a Black governor on Hadrian's wall was perfectly plausible so please read books and don't project Antebellum racism onto the ancient Mediterranean. Sorry for the small derail.

    posted by sukeban at 2:15 PM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


    And just in case you thought the president was serious when he finally called out the perpetrators in the belated prepared speech he read on Monday, he's now doubling down on his initial remarks blaming "both sides": (WaPo) (NYT) (TPM with video):
    “You had a group on one side that was bad and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent,” Trump said. “No one wants to say that, but I’ll say it right now: You had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit and they were very, very violent.”
    “What about the alt-left that came charging at the alt-right — do they have any semblance of guilt?” Trump said. “They came charging, clubs in hand, swinging clubs.”
    More discussion on another thread, but I wanted to post here because it's relevant to anyone still following this thread.
    posted by purple_frogs at 2:18 PM on August 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Re: what to do with statues

    After I saw the Durham clip yesterday, I half expected to see an AskMe like this:
    For complicated / irrelevant reasons a friend has suddenly acquired 18 pounds tons of Red Leicester cheese crumpled Confederate statue. It is good poor quality. However (again, complicated reasons) the [statues] must be moved, used or transformed into something else within the next 72 hours or so.
    disclaimer: just a daydream; not suggesting violence/crime etc
    posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 2:22 PM on August 15, 2017 [19 favorites]


    no, do not eat this
    posted by pyramid termite at 2:33 PM on August 15, 2017 [31 favorites]


    I haven't seen a link to a bail or legal defense fund for Durham, if anyone knows of any.

    Here's one.
    posted by yasaman at 2:50 PM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Meanwhile, there's a Twitter argument over whether the #sayhername hashtag referring to lack of media coverage/police attention to deaths of black women has been co-opted by whites for "that white woman."

    In interviews, Heather Heyer's mother has challenged Trump to "say her name."
    posted by jgirl at 2:58 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I think that pretty much anyone who isn't a white man would just love to see fewer white man statues of any sort and more celebrating minorities, especially local ones. Or having useful/fun things,exactly like statues aren't. I know I'm a Classicist, but they are kind of boring, right?
    posted by cui bono at 2:58 PM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Brian Resnick/Vox: Psychologists surveyed hundreds of alt-right supporters. The results are unsettling.

    First, this is very raw and preliminary data. Some links, and a light disclaimer.
    Recently, psychologists Patrick Forscher and Nour Kteily recruited members of the alt-right (a.k.a. the “alternative right,” the catchall political identity of white nationalists) to participate in a study to build the first psychological profile of their movement. The results, which were released on August 9, are just in working paper form, and have yet to be peer-reviewed or published in an academic journal.

    That said, the study uses well-established psychological measures and is clear about its limitations. (And all the researchers’ raw data and materials have been posted online for others to review.)
    And bulletpoints:
    • The alt-right scores high on dehumanization measures
    • The alt-right has high support for groups that support and work for the benefit of white people
    • The alt-right is more willing to express prejudice toward black people
    • Alt-righters are willing to report their own aggressive behavior
    • Personality traits that frequently show up among alt-righters: authoritarianism and Machiavellianism
    • Alt-righters aren’t particularly socially isolated or worried about the economy
    • Knowing the psychology of the alt-right may be the key to stop white supremacist views from spreading
    posted by ZeusHumms at 3:08 PM on August 15, 2017 [32 favorites]


    Amateur Sleuths Aim to Identify Charlottesville Marchers, but Sometimes Misfire [NYT]
    After a day of work at the Engineering Research Center at the University of Arkansas, Kyle Quinn had a pleasant Friday night in Bentonville with his wife and a colleague. They explored an art exhibition at the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art and dined at an upscale restaurant.

    Then on Saturday, he discovered that social media sleuths had incorrectly identified him as a participant in a white nationalist rally some 1,100 miles away in Charlottesville, Va.
    posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:13 PM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Yesterday, people around the world watched a video of clearly identifiable white americans beating a black american with sticks. And they watched a video of clearly identifiable americans pulling over a statue. Today they watch a video of arrests being made: police watched the videos and arrested one of the clearly identifiable people for breaking the law. Who? Well, they arrested one of the people who pulled over a statue. Not because they're black of course. Because they broke the law.

    I very much doubt I'm the only non-american paying more attention to that sequence of events than to the oh-so-earnest nattering of late night talk show hosts.

    In a couple weeks, these events will have faded into past-news-cycle obscurity and americans will still be imprisoning a larger percentage of their black citizens than South Africa did at the height of apartheid. As you have done for years upon years. It didn't change during the 8 years a half-black man was your president, and it won't change after you tear down the clown. This is just a neat encapsulation of how you do it: it's the law! Just applying the law.
    posted by lastobelus at 3:30 PM on August 15, 2017 [105 favorites]


    Alt-righters aren’t particularly [...] worried about the economy

    So they aren't experiencing economic anxiety, eh? Hunh. Who would've thought.
    posted by CommonSense at 3:52 PM on August 15, 2017 [15 favorites]


    I very much doubt I'm the only non-american paying more attention to that sequence of events than to the oh-so-earnest nattering of late night talk show hosts.

    A surgical strike won't work here, you need a shotgun approach. Every salvo reaches different people. There are many people who are not as engaged as we are here; some lack interest, some lack time. You are definitely not the only non-American or American who is not watching late-night tv. But many people are.
    posted by Room 641-A at 4:11 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]




    My sister just called confederate statues "participation trophies". Hahahaha
    posted by supercrayon at 4:26 PM on August 15, 2017 [87 favorites]


    Those same locals that upheld Roman law and customs, called their countries Holy Roman Empire or kept speaking Low Latin, I assume. I've spent a few days retweeting Mary Beard's tweets about how having a Black governor on Hadrian's wall was perfectly plausible so please read books and don't project Antebellum racism onto the ancient Mediterranean. Sorry for the small derail.
    Not to unduly continue a derail, but my position on Roman "racism" is definitely not the "white Roman" image popular on the know-nothing right that Beard is arguing with. My position is closer to that in Isaac's book The Invention of Racism in Classical Antiquity, where "racism" as practiced in classical antiquity was certainly not exactly like antebellum racism, but shared enough structural and functional similarities that calling it "racism" is not a misuse of the word. Though I personally disagree with Isaac in calling it "proto-racism," since that suggests a false teleology; rather, "racism" can take various forms, and European "racism" evolved in a fairly continuous way from ancient times, through the medieval period, into the modern era and antebellum practices. I grant that these nuances are probably ruined by the alt-right's entry into the discussion, as so many things are, but in an ideal world one would be able call many aspects of Roman attitudes and rule "racism" in order to emphasize the many overlaps between the abusive systems of that era and those today.
    posted by chortly at 4:57 PM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    My sister just called confederate statues "participation trophies". Hahahaha

    I've been seeing that quip online for a while now, which doesn't make it any less beautiful.
    posted by spitbull at 5:13 PM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Trump Warns Removing Confederate Statues Could Be Slippery Slope To Eliminating Racism Entirely [Onion story]
    Note: I got some very NSFW content along with that page when viewing. The joke is entirely in the headline, there's no associated story, so if you're in an environment where you don't feel comfortable if the page loads images of sexual organs to promote another item from the same site, probably give this one a pass..
    posted by Nerd of the North at 5:19 PM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Rev. Traci Blackmon is breaking my heart in an interview with Joy Reid on MSNBC right now. She was in the church that was surrounded by the Nazi mob.

    She is a truly moving speaker.
    posted by spitbull at 5:19 PM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


    I've been seeing that quip online for a while now, which doesn't make it any less beautiful.

    I love turning a right-wing talking point around, but the "participation trophies" comparison doesn't go far enough when most of these statues were put up around the turn of the 20th Century to go along with Jim Crow, with a smaller wave responding to the Civil Rights era and Brown v. Board of Education. As Josh Marshall observed, these statues were erected to intimidate, they're standing as monuments to Plessy v. Ferguson, not as mere participation trophies for the Confederacy.
    posted by zachlipton at 5:36 PM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Someone photoshopped the Nazis as holding dildo torches instead of tiki torches.

    Mathowie is that you
    posted by nicodine at 5:37 PM on August 15, 2017 [22 favorites]


    @sirosenbaum "Rock's Rule of Transitive Nazism"

    @chrisrock "If 10 guys thinks it's ok to hang with 1 Nazi then they just became 11 Nazis. Alt right / white supremacist it's just nazis. Fuck Nazis."
    posted by Buntix at 5:54 PM on August 15, 2017 [60 favorites]


    I love turning a right-wing talking point around, but the "participation trophies" comparison doesn't go far enough when most of these statues were put up around the turn of the 20th Century to go along with Jim Crow...

    We've been talking about that a lot in the thread.
    posted by Miko at 6:11 PM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    That's not the thrust of the "participation trophy"'quip, though. It refers most pointedly to the motivations of contemporary white supremacists for defending Confederate memorials. In fact it depends for its humorous inversion on their ignorance of the actual history of those monuments as tools of intimidation and white power.

    Much like the alt right consists of dimwit young men who have never accomplished anything yet who claim genetic credit for vaccines, symphonies, and democracy as "Western Culture." White privilege is the ultimate participation trophy. You get it just for showing up.

    And being white.
    posted by spitbull at 6:23 PM on August 15, 2017 [23 favorites]


    if the page loads images of sexual organs to promote another item from the same site, probably give this one a pass..

    I swear, mom, it must have been a virus!
    posted by Guy Smiley at 6:31 PM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Interview with Deandre Harris, the kid that got beaten in the parking garage. Contains link for his GoFundMe--he has a lot of health expenses.
    posted by emjaybee at 6:37 PM on August 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


    David Corn reminds us all that we probably haven't hit bottom yes.

    I shudder to think what that bottom will ultimately be.

    I fear a journalist is going to end up getting killed -- probably before we hit bottom.
    posted by jgirl at 6:51 PM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    That's not the thrust of the "participation trophy"'quip, though. It refers most pointedly to the motivations of contemporary white supremacists for defending Confederate memorials. In fact it depends for its humorous inversion on their ignorance of the actual history of those monuments as tools of intimidation and white power.

    These Nazis know exactly what those statues mean and what they're for; the statues were meant to claim this land in the name of white supremacy, and that's exactly what these pieces of shit want to preserve.

    They aren't ignorant, they're hateful.

    I think it's a mistake not to take them seriously. What they're doing is very serious. Wars have been fought and millions have died because of the beliefs they profess, and within living memory.
    posted by rue72 at 6:54 PM on August 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Zachlipton, this is late but re. the Congregation Beth Israel post, good god this is horrifying. Thank you for posting it, I hadn't heard anything about this.
    posted by Rufous-headed Towhee heehee at 6:59 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Interview with Deandre Harris, the kid that got beaten in the parking garage. Contains link for his GoFundMe--he has a lot of health expenses.

    Wow. The GoFundMe asked for 50,000. It's now at 133,000. The majority of those donations are $5-20. Thousands of people.
    A needed bright spot. It's little but it burns bright.
    posted by Jalliah at 7:00 PM on August 15, 2017 [40 favorites]


    I fear a journalist is going to end up getting killed -- probably before we hit bottom.

    Some people have seemingly been trying.
    posted by traveler_ at 7:38 PM on August 15, 2017


    They aren't ignorant, they're hateful.

    Yeah I get that. One can be both ignorant and hateful. You're being a bit patronizing.
    posted by spitbull at 7:41 PM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Watching Ana Navarro and Gov. Jan Brewer on with Don Lemon. Navarro says "Trump apologists are going to..." and from her expression I really thought she might say "going to hell". (I think she said they were going to keep doing apology dances.)
    posted by puddledork at 7:44 PM on August 15, 2017


    And I beg to differ. Interview any of those demonstrators and I think you'd find them broadly ignorant of the history and "heritage" they are claiming, including the specific history of the monuments they are defending. They certainly can see them as instruments of white domination and symbols of white power without knowing history. In fact, again, their hatefulness is rooted in and dependent on ignorance.
    posted by spitbull at 7:44 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    The local NPR/PRI channel had an interview, because while Dinild Trimp was defending Nazis, the Holocaust Memorial in Boston was vandalized. Again. Twice this year, and never before. It was an interview with the director of the Boston Holocaust Memorial.

    The Memorial is right where hurried businessmen leave the many-storied skyscrapers of the Business District downtown, but must rush to South Station and its commuter rail lines and subway junctions. There are a ton of '70s era brick buildings and a few much older hiding in their midst. It's literally between Fanuel Hall and South Station.

    I used to work on State Street and live in Lowell. I am not the most... emotionally attuned human you've ever met. It's a slog for me.

    So! There are these four-sided towers of glass no-one is walking under right where a sidewalk should go, and I don't want to miss my train and spend another hour at the booksellers' upstairs, or the scotch vendor in the basement! I rush through. The concrete turns to a steel grate. Down below is a bed of charcoal ash, glowing and flickering as real as if you were looking into a campfire, I have no idea how they did that in a multi-year, all-weather display. Then I look up, into the tower of glass, four sides, each has a small poem and a lot of numbers.

    I quickly stepped out onto the street, and felt shame.

    Never again.
    posted by Slap*Happy at 7:48 PM on August 15, 2017 [26 favorites]


    Slap*Happy - that memorial is gut-wrenching. It doesn't seem it should be so powerful, and yet it is. It has more power than any other Holocaust memorial I've ever been to (in the US). The design, the six million etchings, the words of survivors, the smoke. As a tour guide in Boston I introduced it to a number of people, but I never "toured" it because I recommended that people come back when they had a good amount of time and experience it at their own pace.

    It is beyond disgusting that some miserable fuck decided their petulant attitude was as important as that experience.
    posted by Miko at 7:51 PM on August 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Did anyone mention the Nazis had left weapons caches around? Because that's what you do. Right before genocide. (I know, duh, but...)


    Rwanda: This was not some bureaucratically organised, impersonal, rational process like the Holocaust of the Second World War. This was a genuinely popular genocide.
    posted by Yowser at 7:53 PM on August 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Hari Kondabolu:

    Today: "A man who has never personally accepted blame for anything is placing blame on both sides of a 1-sided issue."

    Yesterday: "White supremacy kills people all the time. Usually it's institutional & not caught on camera."

    Two days ago: "It's just pigment. That's it."
    posted by Capt. Renault at 8:06 PM on August 15, 2017 [9 favorites]


    They certainly can see them as instruments of white domination and symbols of white power without knowing history. In fact, again, their hatefulness is rooted in and dependent on ignorance.

    That isn't ignorance -- they are correct that these are instruments and symbols of white supremacy and they are vocal in their support. That is exactly why they are vocal in their support.

    The desire to give them this fig leaf of ignorance is beyond me. It doesn't take much knowledge or even brains to grasp that Nazi ideology is wrong and so is beating and murdering people on the street. No need for you to patronize them by insisting that they're acting out of "ignorance."
    posted by rue72 at 8:29 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]






    Virginia governor Terry McAuliffe revealed on Monday that the far right activists had hidden caches of weapons around the city. “They had battering rams and we had picked up different weapons that they had stashed around the city,”
    The note about battering rams seems to tie into the "home invasions" mentioned above.

    I think this is the one thing the "both sides" people would not be able to accommodate. Some people will always decide the counter-protestors must have done something to provoke the attack. But if they were going to invade people's homes, bash down doors to get to people, there's no way for them to spin that. Staying inside your own home is supposed to be the exact opposite of asking for trouble.
    posted by RobotHero at 9:19 PM on August 15, 2017 [27 favorites]


    I just saw that Vice documentary and it certainly deserves its own post (especially given the already unwieldy length of this one). That reporter and her film crew were astonishingly good under fire and they put together that report very quickly. Enough with the talking heads calling people nazis, just show the videos of the people who organized the rally and their weapons and goals and even most fox viewers should be able to get it.
    posted by cyphill at 9:20 PM on August 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


    The state police finally said there were no weapons caches, despite Gov. McAuliffe's comments. That doesn't mean that people didn't have battering rams though.
    posted by zachlipton at 9:22 PM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Okay, so, where are the arrests of these Nazis? They are literally on camera beating people, the people in the housing they tried to invade witnessed and repelled home invasions on a massive scale, a lot of these people have been identified. Where are the arrests? Do we all need to start calling the Charlottesville PD and asking when they're planning on, you know, arresting all the people who committed felonies on film and in front of hundreds of witnesses?
    posted by Frowner at 9:24 PM on August 15, 2017 [50 favorites]


    “After Charlottesville, a fresh look at Atlanta’s Confederate symbols,” Christian Boone, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 14 August 2017

    “[Democratic gubernatorial candidate Stacey] Abrams calls for removal of Confederate faces off Stone Mountain,” Greg Bluestein, Id., 15 August 2017

    “This is the final boss of confederate monuments. We're not stopping unless we replace these scumbags with Outkast. [Photo of Stone Mountain]”— Metro Atlanta DSA 🌹 (@MetroATLDSA) August 15, 2017
    posted by ob1quixote at 9:54 PM on August 15, 2017 [14 favorites]


    ‘Unite against fascism’: Fearless women battling ISIS memorialize Heather Heyer (Noor Al-Sibai, Raw Story)
    The female members of the anti-ISIS YPG militia in Syria were already badass enough — but their response to the killing of Heather Heyer by neo-Nazi James Fields, Jr. solidified their status.

    “As women who have suffered at the hands of Daesh [ISIS] we know well the dangers that fascist, racist, patriarchal and nationalist groups and organizations pose,” read a statement from female fighters from the Yazidi religious minority. “Once again men of this mind-set, this time in America, have martyred a woman, Heather Heyer, who was resisting against the division and destruction of communities.”
    posted by Room 641-A at 9:57 PM on August 15, 2017 [90 favorites]


    the people in the housing they tried to invade witnessed and repelled home invasions on a massive scale

    Does anyone have any information about this? It was mentioned yesterday, but I haven't seen anything specific.
    posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:01 PM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


    With regards to both sides ism:

    Does your love of America depend on who fired the first shot at Lexington? No. Good. Then if literal, actual Nazis are in a fight with any Americans, there's only one side to take.
    posted by Zalzidrax at 10:12 PM on August 15, 2017 [12 favorites]




    > Interesting chemistry thread on what fucks up statues.

    "Aaaaand PSS: Your stomach acid is HCl, so if you can't spray a statue with lab grade acid, feel free to vomit on one."

    👍
    posted by tonycpsu at 10:20 PM on August 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Confederate statues coming down in Baltimore (by the city)! They're moving fast.
    posted by zachlipton at 10:50 PM on August 15, 2017 [34 favorites]


    Confederate statues coming down in Baltimore (by the city)! They're moving fast.

    That and someone calling Paul Ryan "invertebro" are the only things that have made me smile today.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 10:54 PM on August 15, 2017 [33 favorites]


    Hollywood Forever Cemetery To Remove Monument To Confederate Soldiers (Emma Spekter, LAist)
    A week before white supremacists gathered in Charlottesville to violently protest the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee, the L.A. Times ran an op-ed pointing out a Confederate momument tucked away inside one of L.A.'s best-loved tourist attractions: Hollywood Forever Cemetery. After petitioning from local activists, Hollywood Forever announced plans Tuesday evening to remove the monument. [...]

    Cassidy told LAist that Hollywood Forever contacted the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC) to inform them that they'd received "constant calls" urging the monument's removal, and that the monument had been repeatedly vandalized, at which point the UDC opted to remove it. Individual grave markers of the 30-odd Confederate soldiers who are buried at Hollywood Forever Cemetery will remain, but the seven-foot plaque commemorating their loyalty to the Civil War-era South will not
    posted by Room 641-A at 11:09 PM on August 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Room 641-A: "Definitely don't use the very flammable Coffee-Mate. That would be wrong."

    Coffee Mate is only very flammable because of its surface area; once doused in oil it loses that property.

    Gelatin: "If memory serves me correctly, Lee regarded the South's defeat as the judgment of God and considered the question settled."

    Like a nation sized trial by combat?
    posted by Mitheral at 11:45 PM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Ill-advised filler story in blue Seattle: The drawbacks to publicly shaming white supremacists

    And just as I was typing this, the headline changed to "Social media outs attendees of Charlottesville rally" but the tweet still has the original one.
    posted by ctmf at 11:58 PM on August 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Ill-advised filler story in blue Seattle: The drawbacks to publicly shaming white supremacists

    The "sympathetic, poor conservative blogger who was just at the rally for his youtube channel" calls his critics "sub-human." Sub-human isn't part of my regular, go-to, on the tip of my tongue, things you say vocabulary. It seems to be a part of James Allsup's (College Republicans president!) vocabulary. I wonder why that is?
    posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:20 AM on August 16, 2017 [25 favorites]


    The Guardian published a list of the gear worn by the peaceful and permit-carrying alt-right demonstrators here.

    George Curbelo, state commander of the New York Light Foot militia, described himself as second in command of the militia members who attended the far right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, this past weekend. He detailed for the Guardian the unofficial uniforms and gear used by the militia, which he pointed out was all legal in the US and easily bought online by civilians. Each of the 32 militia members who patrolled in Charlottesville was carrying between 60-80lbs (27-36kg) of equipment on Saturday, he said.
    posted by stillmoving at 12:25 AM on August 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


    ctmf: Ill-advised filler story in blue Seattle

    Well, that's certainly some hot take from Elise Hahn of King 5 News: "... this kind of outing [people as Nazis] can lead to losing face, losing jobs, or even losing friends or family members."

    It's funny that you should mention losing family members in this context, Elise. I have some stories about that.

    posted by Joe in Australia at 12:28 AM on August 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


    Ya know, after all this I just sorta desperately want these Nazi dudes to have their own island. Can you IMAGINE how fascinating that would be? How would they determine who is worthy?
    How quickly would a violent outbreak start? What would it be about? Who or what would they blame for ruining their utopia in that situation?

    The idea that if everyone is of the same race/general mindset then everyone will be rich and prosperous and crime free and powerful is incredibly unrealistic. And I just flat out don't understand the thinking.

    Honestly, what do they think the US would look like if they got their way? Would they go back to owning slaves? Making women unable to vote? A class system? How would crime be handled? Voting? What if someone becomes disabled? Would they allow trade with other countries?

    Obviously there's no true point it hearing these views out. But there's just literally no way to square what they want. It's full of plot holes. As a chronic planner I just don't see how they expect any of this to work out if they truly got their way.

    It's purely just a way to shift blame onto anyone other than themselves and to maintain power in the current system and be on top of someone or something. Because if they got their way, someone still has to be at the bottom as they clearly don't believe in equality or socialism.
    posted by Crystalinne at 12:48 AM on August 16, 2017 [6 favorites]




    George Curbelo, state commander of the New York Light Foot militia,

    Pretty sure their actions, if they're drilling in NY, are unlawful.
    posted by mikelieman at 12:50 AM on August 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


    The Guardian published a list of the gear worn by the peaceful and permit-carrying alt-right demonstrators here.

    I certainly don't want to carry water for them, but it's very interesting to me that they are careful to define their role as defensive, and I haven't seen anything suggesting that they used that equipment. As I said upthread I know I saw some armed militia members during livestreams or shared videos, but when actually trying to find them they weren't in very many of the photos. And while their presence was certainly intended to be intimidation, and their claims of "just trying to keep parties separate" neutrality are hard to swallow (and yet they're absolutely correct that was the proper role of the police), I haven't heard of anyone getting shot -- which was the first thing I expected going into the weekend. And while I don't know if the specific militia groups The Guardian interviewed are represented by them or feel bound by it, the Three Percenters group did disavow further participation in these rallies.

    My principal concern is the street brawling frat boys of the Gamergate/4chan/reddit generation and assorted traditional groups of neo-Nazis, neo-Confederates, and oddball hangers on from different, less affiliated corners of the alt-right (the James Allsups, basically). Are they emboldened, exhilirated, like Christopher Cantwell (see the Vice piece)? Are they inspired by Fields, or shocked and repelled? Who will be drawn to the movement for the first time by seeing this as a success (as Cantwell does)? Who will feel encouraged by the tacit support of the President of the United States?

    Also, I've heard many rumors about attempted home invasions, but I haven't seen any first-person accounts let alone a single photograph of any such incident, which seems in these circumstances a bit strange. Certainly there was plenty of clashing going on but other than video of macings I also haven't seen much about anyone being seriously injured outside of Deandre Harris, and even a list of those injured in the car attack (the numbers seem verified by authorities at least) is difficult to come by. I'm hoping the civil suit brought against the organizers will result in some verrrrrrry interesting pre-trial discovery, and as I've indicated it would probably be really useful if there were some sort of oversight body looking at how the police reaction allowed these injuries and deaths to occur [if only to provide guidance for the next city chosen to be so feted], but if they're more than just rumor they need to have some people come forward with what they may have.

    As we saw today with the rumor the governor promulgated about "weapons caches", these unverified stories can get out there quickly and sap up energy that should be spent on holding people accountable for the real things that happened. Yeah, okay, so people may have had crude battering rams, the same way that they had crude flagpole/stave setups or crude, unmodified patio torches, but please show me where it was used to batter down a door. It's also been stated that there was virtually no property damage, after all, because the gov considered that a feather in the cap of the police. What happened was bad enough, terrifying enough, that we don't need to juice it up. The fringe has spent years -- and some of these groups literlaly recruiting -- on claims that because Jesse Jackson just, y'know, said something Race War is Imminent. Let's not succumb to a mirror image of that fanatic fantasy.

    Ya know, after all this I just sorta desperately want these Nazi dudes to have their own island.

    The ideological framework is a little different, but Bob the Angry Flower has got you covered.
    posted by dhartung at 1:05 AM on August 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Honestly, what do they think the US would look like if they got their way?

    I'm pretty sure they think if they got their way, the US would look like all the previous real-world examples of societies where virulent racists and nationalists have hegemony. Which is exactly how they would like it to look.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 1:05 AM on August 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


    ‘Unite against fascism’: Fearless women battling ISIS memorialize Heather Heyer (Noor Al-Sibai, Raw Story)

    That awkward moment when women from an entirely different culture half a planet away are able to effectively recognize and memorialize what happened to a victim of white nationalism better than the President of the United Fucking States.
    posted by supercrayon at 1:52 AM on August 16, 2017 [86 favorites]


    Ya know, after all this I just sorta desperately want these Nazi dudes to have their own island. Can you IMAGINE how fascinating that would be?
    Crystalinne: It's not quite Nazis, but I still think you'll like this: The Libertarian Utopia That’s Just a Bunch of White Guys on a Tiny Island.
    posted by nnethercote at 2:11 AM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    just show the videos of the people who organized the rally and their weapons and goals and even most fox viewers should be able to get it.

    [citation needed]
    posted by duffell at 3:25 AM on August 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Heather Heyer's mother requested people attending her memorial today to wear purple, Heather's favorite color.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 4:21 AM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Confederate monuments have been removed overnight in Baltimore. (AP)
    Local news outlets report that workers began hauling monuments away early Wednesday, days after a white nationalist rally in Virginia turned deadly.

    WBAL-TV reports that a crane removed a monument to Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson" from its pedestal around 3 a.m. The TV station says the statue was placed on a flatbed truck 45 minutes later.
    posted by Room 641-A at 4:29 AM on August 16, 2017 [45 favorites]


    Great that they came down, but Maryland wasn't part of the Confederacy. Why were they there in the first place?
    posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:24 AM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    In re other people getting injured: Lots of other people were injured at the protest itself but were not hospitalized. I've heard a reliable report about a trans woman being targeted and attacked. The chat on the Root is that a lot of other people were harassed and beaten, but few have gone to the police and most have not wanted media attention because they're afraid.

    Here is an interview with a guy who used spray paint to ward off a bunch of nazis who were threatening a little old white guy.

    I will tell you - I have been in some big and violent protests. Not for a while now - this is all post-Battle of Seattle stuff, except for RNC 2008. In recent years I've also been at some "seeing the nazis off" protests which were mostly won by numbers. Do not kid yourself. I have not seen anything like this before. The widespread availability of lite police and military gear has changed things up, open carry has changed things up. Also, do not kid yourself that just getting punched isn't so bad, or that people who were "only" tear gassed or "only" shoved around a little bit were not really injured. Or, god knows, that people who were "only" afraid to walk around being Black last weekend were not "really" injured.

    Being in a large violent altercation stays with you and can really fuck you up. A friend had memory problems and a bunch of flashbacks after being caught up in police violence post-Seattle.

    Actually, you know what the most extreme thing that happened to anyone I know at a protest was? Someone I was a in a group with was arrested in 2008 and then beaten unconscious in his cell by police yelling homophobic slurs. He was damn lucky he didn't die. He was white and the son of a rich man, but you know what - nothing came of it. No one was punished. There was no media. I only know about this because people talked about it. Do not think that because stuff is not in the media, it did not happen.

    I'm telling you, watch out. This is not just the everyday write large.
    posted by Frowner at 5:28 AM on August 16, 2017 [91 favorites]


    Great that they came down, but Maryland wasn't part of the Confederacy. Why were they there in the first place?

    Search your feelings. I think you know the answer to this.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 5:38 AM on August 16, 2017 [39 favorites]


    I'd been wondering about the other people at the scene of the car-ramming. WaPo has an interview with the women who were in the car hit by the perpetrator's car:

    Charlottesville women in rammed car sue white nationalists for inciting violence, Arelis R. Hernández, WaPo
    Two women injured during the chaos surrounding a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville last week have filed a $3 million lawsuit against individuals they say were the organizers and naming more than two-dozen right-wing and neo-Nazi groups in a suit accusing them of inciting violence Saturday.

    Sisters Tadrint and Micah Washington were headed home in their car Aug. 12 when they turned down an open Charlottesville side street where counterprotesters were marching. Within minutes, a Dodge Challenger slammed into the crowd and rammed into the rear of their car, causing a chain-reaction crash that killed one and injured 19 others.

    The Washington sisters were not participating in the protests and had been visiting a friend when they got caught in a maze of detours...

    The firm in the lawsuit gained notoriety for civil suits against the governments of Iran and Sudan, accusing them of providing material support to international terrorists in the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Africa.

    “A lot of the same legal principles will translate” in what attorney Jeff Travers and his colleagues expect to litigate as an act of domestic terrorism.
    posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 5:50 AM on August 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


    Anyone who is surprised by racist shit in Maryland hasn't spent much time on the Eastern Shore.
    posted by phearlez at 6:22 AM on August 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Y'all might be interested in this bit I got from one of the open data mailing lists I am on, from someone at Demand Progress.
    Today we released a study that looked at Democratic and Republican responses in the immediate aftermath of Charlottesville. We examined 327 tweets and statements made on Saturday and found disturbing disparities in the responses by party, as well as a slow comparative rate in calling out white nationalists directly.

    That analysis is here: https://medium.com/demand-progress/congressional-reactions-to-charlottesville-bdfd38978d11
    posted by phearlez at 6:23 AM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Jason Wilson/Guardian: Why is the US still fighting the civil war?

    Interesting note here:
    According to [Joseph Lowndes, a political scientist at the University of Oregon and author of two books on the US’s racial politics and the south], the Jim Crow phenomenon was a reaction to the inroads made by the populist movement, which had fleetingly created political alliances of poor blacks and whites against the rich southern planter class.

    Lowndes says that southern elites sought to “take blacks out of the electorate and segregate public space” in order to “redivide the black and white core” of the south’s working class and small farmers. The monuments were also elements of this divide-and-rule strategy. They were ultimately built for a white audience, as “elements of a culture that directed whites towards beliefs that aligned them with the planters”, says Lowndes. “It was a political project. Any political project requires symbols, and an imaginary.”
    Emphasis mine.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 6:23 AM on August 16, 2017 [28 favorites]


    This weekend I was away from home visiting family, but frequently looking at this thread on my phone to keep up with the news. Thank you all for the commentary and links and the love. I honestly don't know how healthy it was for me to engage quite as I did -- lots of reading and being horrified and very little talking or action of any kind.

    My mom reminds me: if you don't eat or sleep properly then you can't fight. I'm trying to remember that.
    posted by brainwane at 6:30 AM on August 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Great that they came down, but Maryland wasn't part of the Confederacy. Why were they there in the first place?

    Search your feelings. I think you know the answer to this.


    A plaque commemorating Jefferson Davis has been removed in Montreal.
    posted by Capt. Renault at 6:40 AM on August 16, 2017 [13 favorites]




    Leaving aside, for the moment, the utter evil lies Trump told about both sides bearing responsibility for the murder of Heather Heyer by a self identified Nazi, one thing that stood out to me is that Trump has embraced some of the gaslighting lies that the right has been telling about the motives of people who support the removal of monuments celebrating the Confederacy.

    The lie is that people wish to remove statues to Lee, or other Confederate villains, simply because they were slaveowners. This strawman permits them to shift the question from one of defending monuments to the Confederacy to defending statues of Washington or Jefferson who were of course also slaveowners.

    The first question that always pops into my mind when I hear this objection, and it's a side issue, is: what statues of Washington and Jefferson?
    Seriously, when was the last time you saw a statue of Washington or Jefferson? I'm 42 years old and I've seen statues of Confederate villains all over the place, there's one in Amarillo, there's one in San Antonio, there's dozens in Austin. You can't walk through a town in America without tripping over some godawful monument to the Confederacy.

    But I literally cannot recall ever seeing a statue to either Washington or Jefferson. I know there's one of Jefferson at the Jefferson Memorial of course, but on my trip to DC I didn't have time to stop there. I checked wikipedia and apparently there are a few of Washington hidden away in some places. But there are orders of magnitude more statues of Confederate villains than there are statues of Washington and Jefferson combined.

    However, that's just a minor lie compared to the much bigger lie implicit in the efforts of the right to gaslight us over Confederate monuments.
    Because the bigger lie, the one where they impugn our motives, is that the objection to statues of Lee is that he was a slaveowner.

    No one objecting to the statues cares one bit about the fact that he personally owned slaves. That fact isn't even a side issue, it's a non-issue.
    The objection is that Lee decided to commit treason against the USA, that he decided to wage war against the USA, specifically and explicitly to preserve slavery and the system of white supremacy.

    He sided with a nation that was explicitly founded to preserve and continue white supremacy and black slavery.

    That's why we object to his statues, and to all monuments erected to celebrate the Confederate States of America and spread the pernicious Lost Cause narrative.

    If Lee had never owned any slaves we'd still be clamoring for his statues to be torn down because he fought to preserve slavery and white supremacy.

    Which is why the lie that they've been promoting on white supremacist websites and forums, which has migrated to FOX and from there to Mad King Don, the lie that liberals object specifically to Lee's status as a slaveowner and that therefore the (mostly non-existent) statues of Washington and Jefferson are next on the liberal chopping block, must be stopped.

    If we permit them to rewrite our own motives we've already lost.

    There's a lot to object to in Mad King Don's most recent spewing of bile. But the attempt to gaslight us, the attempt to tell us our motives are different from what they truly are, is the most dangerous lie he told and the one we must stop cold or else it will sap our will to fight.

    We don't care if Lee owned slaves or not. That's not the issue, that's not related to the issue, and bringing it in is nothing more or less than an attempt to undermine us.
    posted by sotonohito at 6:49 AM on August 16, 2017 [91 favorites]




    (I tweeted both from my twitter in case people want to RT)
    posted by jessamyn at 6:52 AM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    DevilsAdvocate Great that they came down, but Maryland wasn't part of the Confederacy. Why were they there in the first place?

    Because from 1910 to 1960 several racist groups, most notably the United Daughters of the Confederacy, undertook a massive project to erect monuments celebrating the Confederacy across the USA. they were most successful in the old South, but as racism and white supremacist opposition to integration and desegregation grew they were also quite successful outside the South.

    There are monuments celebrating the Confederacy in Oregon, Washington state, and other places you wouldn't think would have such things. And schools named after Confederate villains or with Confederate imagery such as sports teams called the Rebels.

    This all happened basically because a bunch of white people wanted to celebrate white supremacy and intimidate people of color. That's why the monuments mostly went up from 1910 to 1960 rather than immediately after the war ended. Because they aren't about the war and never were, they were always about racism and intimidating people of color.
    posted by sotonohito at 6:58 AM on August 16, 2017 [53 favorites]


    Great that they came down, but Maryland wasn't part of the Confederacy. Why were they there in the first place?

    Because Maryland was a slave state and 25,000 Marylanders joined the Confederate army? Same reason there are Confederate memorials in Missouri and Kentucky and Delaware. (And Maryland also had Jim Crow laws dating from the first decade of the 20th century in the wake of the Plessy v Ferguson decision, which is perhaps more pertinent in light of the ideological reason for the monuments.)
    posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:11 AM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    There was also a plaque somewhere in Brooklyn that commemorated a tree Robert E. Lee planted when he was stationed at Fort Hamilton here in Bay Ridge. That's coming down, too.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 AM on August 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Mostly the racism.
    posted by Artw at 7:15 AM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Dinesh D'Souza tries so hard, bless his heart.
    posted by JohnFromGR at 7:18 AM on August 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


    IF EQUALITY & DIVERSITY AREN'T FOR YOU THEN NEITHER ARE WE
    We are OPEN in protest of the recent demonstrations of hate
    MINORTY RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS

    Sign in windows in downtown Charlottesville, via NPR article titled "Charlottesville Businesses Worry Violent Rally Will Scare Tourists Away"
    posted by filthy light thief at 7:20 AM on August 16, 2017 [18 favorites]


    Same reason there are Confederate memorials in Missouri and Kentucky and Delaware.

    Yep, those were the border states, the ones that Lincoln was so scared of losing that he specifically exempted them from the Emancipation Proclamation. He believed that if he lost one of those states, he'd lose the war, and he was probably right. They didn't secede, but they felt pretty torn up about it.

    I'm a Missourian who's lived in three different regions of the state, and I've never met a soul there who would call themselves a southerner, but much of the state is mostly culturally indistinguishable from the south, outside of accents and food. You see dixie flags everywhere. But then I've seen 'em in upstate NY too.
    posted by middleclasstool at 7:24 AM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Sockin'inthefreeworld: Charlottesville women in rammed car sue white nationalists for inciting violence, Arelis R. Hernández, WaPo

    That would be awesome to bankrupt these violently racist assholes and their organizations, so they can buy fewer guns and less protective gear and feel less safe inciting violence.

    And focus on the people, less on the names of their groups.
    ... you have to understand that the names of the groups, they change like their clothes. So, you know, focusing on those isn't really appropriate. But if you look at the ideologies and the theologies and the philosophies and the political positions that they take, it's essentially the same movement [from the 1990s]."
    Former special agent Michael German, talking to David Greene about how law enforcement and the federal government are countering the current white supremacist movement following the violence in Virginia. (NPR, Aug. 15, 2017)
    posted by filthy light thief at 7:26 AM on August 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


    I just wrote an article about an 1848 incident in Maryland where a group of furious slave owners sent a huge posse to capture escaped slaves, then went to D.C. and rioted in the streets over the escape attempt. So. This is really not hard to understand.
    posted by mynameisluka at 7:28 AM on August 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Anyone who is surprised by racist shit in Maryland hasn't spent much time on the Eastern Shore.

    Or just, like, in Maryland. at all.
    posted by duffell at 7:28 AM on August 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


    Also, with decreased funds, they'll be less able to coordinate, as tech companies are less likely to support these groups going forward (Discord chat app finally kicked off the biggest white supremacist groups, reducing their ability to organize on a mass scale).
    posted by filthy light thief at 7:30 AM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    (Seriously, the one and only reason Maryland is so deep-blue is because of its racial and ethnic diversity. A WHOLE lot of white people in Maryland's deep, deep blue counties are racist as shit. Remove people of color from the electoral math and we are Montana on the Bay.)
    posted by duffell at 7:33 AM on August 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


    I didn't see this posted, apologies if I'm repeating anyone, but the National Park Service has issued a permit for white supremacists to rally at Crissy Field in San Francisco on August 26. Below is a list of NPS officials to call. Here is a public letter from three of our state elected officials asking them to revoke it (Facebook link). When I called I asked them to deny the permit for the sake of community safety.

    Cicely Muldoon, General Superintendent
    (415) 464-5101
    Carey Feierabend, Deputy Superintendent
    (415) 561-4975
    Sonja Hanson, Director of Communications and External Affairs
    (206) 220-4011
    Office of the Superintendent Main Line
    (415) 561-4720
    Special Events & Commercial Film Permits Main Line
    (415) 561-4300
    George Durgerian, Special Events & Beach Fires
    (415) 561-4302
    Melinda Moses, Large Events north of Golden Gate Bridge
    (415) 561-4301
    Katie Beltrano, Outdoor Ceremonies, Small Picnics
    (415) 561-4373
    posted by sunset in snow country at 7:35 AM on August 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


    filthy light thief: do you know more about the context of Discord kicking off the white supremacists? I saw all the announcements once it happened, but were there news stories written before Monday about Discord's role in Charlottesville organizing?
    posted by Nelson at 7:35 AM on August 16, 2017


    Altright.com was using them according to this Verge article along with "several other public groups"
    posted by jessamyn at 7:36 AM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Sunset: The NPS tweeted out something today that states that they were forced to grant that permit.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:37 AM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I used to live in Southern Maryland, the location of a Union POW camp. The story I was always told there was that Confederate soldiers at the camp really just had to escape the *camp* in order to be home free. The local residents were absolutely Confederate sympathizers and would aid any escaped POW that showed up at their door. Lincoln forced Maryland to stay in the Union under military duress, because of its proximity to Washington DC. There were people living under enslavement in Maryland, and the white population was very sympathetic to the rebels.

    But most of these memorials, across the US, were put there not to memorialize the war but to, years and decades after the fact, intimidate communities of color. Here is a handy list of monuments and memorials to the Confederacy across the US.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 7:41 AM on August 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


    Thanks, Soren.

    The three in NY are all street names. Anyone know who to politely but firmly contact en masse about having those renamed?
    posted by BS Artisan at 7:51 AM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    > Maryland wasn't part of the Confederacy. Why were they there in the first place?

    There have already been good answers to this, but you might also want to take a look at the lyrics to the Maryland State Song, "Maryland, My Maryland"; the entire thing is a hymn to Confederate resistance, culminating in this notorious (and in the end hilarious) final stanza:
    I hear the distant thunder-hum,
        Maryland!
    The Old Line bugle, fife, and drum,
        Maryland!
    She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb—
    Huzza! She spurns the Northern scum!
    She breathes! She burns! She'll come! She'll come!
        Maryland! My Maryland!
    Yes, it's still the state song; there have been calls to replace it, but I'm not holding my breath.
    posted by languagehat at 7:58 AM on August 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


    It was basically the same thing as the Reagan legacy dudes, except fronting for even viler people.
    posted by tavella at 7:59 AM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Today in the World's Laziest Deflections Ever: the superintendent with jurisdiction over Robert E. Lee elementary school in FUCKING EAST WENATCHEE, WASHINGTON*, said the school board decided to keep the name when it last came up for discussion 2 years ago, after they looked at a news article posted online and saw that 90% of the people in the comments section were against changing the name.

    *I say "fucking East Wenatchee" not because racist-ass bullshit is shocking in Wenatchee, but because... Robert E. Lee? In the goddamn opposite corner of the continental United States? Goddamn, dude.
    posted by duffell at 7:59 AM on August 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


    The Wiki link that soren_loresnon posted indicates that the (tiny) state I grew up in has one Confederate monument located on private property in Georgetown in 2007.

    Yeah, you read that correctly. And according to this article from the local paper, the nonprofit that runs it (among other things) got $11,500 in state aid last year.

    WELP TIME TO FIRE UP FACEBOOK I GUESS ONE GOOD THING IS GONNA COME OUT OF SEEING STATUS UPDATES FROM THAT ONE GIRL I SAT NEXT TO ON THE BUS ONE TIME IN TENTH GRADE
    posted by joyceanmachine at 8:00 AM on August 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


    The three in NY are all street names. Anyone know who to politely but firmly contact en masse about having those renamed?

    The Department of Defense (specifically, the Secretary of the Army) for the two in Brooklyn; they're in Fort Hamilton. For the one in the Bronx probably the borough commissioner.
    posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:01 AM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    @realDonaldTrump
    Memorial service today for beautiful and incredible Heather Heyer, a truly special young woman. She will be long remembered by all!

    (fuck you)
    posted by Rust Moranis at 8:02 AM on August 16, 2017 [24 favorites]


    This was already linked upthread, but the SPLC put together a good primer last year on why these monuments exist and where they are -- and there are a lot of them, and not all in formerly rebellious states.

    I had to check Kansas, and was annoyed to see a dot on the map, but I suppose this is an acceptable Confederate monument.

    There was also a confederate flag on display in Wichita since 1976, but it got taken down after the church shooting in Charleston. OTOH the city has planned to build a Reconciliation Memorial which I'd rather not have, but it's better than flying the colors.
    posted by fleacircus at 8:03 AM on August 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


    FYI, there were also a couple plaques in Brooklyn, commemorating where Robert E. Lee planted a tree or something, and the city's already announced that those are coming down.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:09 AM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    To maybe close up the Maryland question, if you've ever been to Baltimore you might have gone up to a big bluff overlooking the city with a lot of old cannons on it that are facing across the Inner Harbor towards Baltimore itself. That's called Federal Hill, where the Union army occupied Baltimore in 1861 and threatened to destroy the port if Maryland seceded, which was entirely plausible as it was a slave state and many Marylanders enlisted in the Confederate Army.
    posted by deludingmyself at 8:09 AM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Apologies if this has already been linked: the National Trust for Historic Preservation put out a statement on Confederate Memorials back in June.

    "We should always remember the past, but we do not necessarily need to revere it".
    posted by Capt. Renault at 8:20 AM on August 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Apparently there are no monuments to Confederates in NJ where I live now. Massachusetts does have one, a memorial to the Confederate POWs held on Georges Island (both a national and state park, in the Boston Harbor Islands) and it's covered up right now while its future is debated. It was erected by the United Daughters of the Confederacy in 1963. Here's what else was going on in Boston in 1963.
    posted by Miko at 8:25 AM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]




    "History, Stephen said, is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake." - James Joyce
    posted by pyramid termite at 8:27 AM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Bree Newsome has posted a link to a bond fund for those getting arrested in Durham.
    posted by deludingmyself at 8:29 AM on August 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


    "The past is never dead. It's not even past." –William Faulkner
    posted by entropicamericana at 8:29 AM on August 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


    One more thought about protests: We need to bring heavy blankets or whatever you use to wrap people to put out fires. Probably the most dangerous thing in all this was the fire - per Cornel West, they had lighter fluid and were trying to set people on fire.

    I feel very, very strongly that we all need to step up our game in a variety of ways, and we need to start scaffolding what we're going to do if we're in a situation where someone is fatally or near-fatally attacked in front of us.

    I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with whoever is doing local organizing against this kind of stuff and with what kind of precautions are being taken.

    Now, I'm not worried about going to things where it seems unlikely that there will be alt-right - I was not worried about going to the MPLS solidarity march, for instance. There are lots and lots and lots of events that are going to be perfectly safe, and/or where any civil disobedience will be signposted in advance so you don't need to participate. This is typical of protests in my experience, even the more militant BLM ones.

    But if you are going to a protest where there's likely to be significant right-wing presence, don't go alone, stay aware of what's going on around you and where you are in the crowd, plan to check in with folks at home, and scaffold how you plan to respond if things go bad.

    Also, dress intelligently - shorts and a tee don't protect much skin. Wear sturdy shoes to protect your feet, not sandals. Even carrying a bike helmet gives you something to put on if it seems like you need to protect your head. Think about what you bring with you.

    I want to stress that I don't expect to be doing this for most protests (god willing) but I'm going to be more diligent about doing it for any that seem likely to go wrong.
    posted by Frowner at 8:37 AM on August 16, 2017 [46 favorites]


    This would be a good time for all the former presidents to stand together and denounce the current president.
    posted by Room 641-A at 8:38 AM on August 16, 2017 [44 favorites]


    "History, Stephen said, is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake." - James Joyce

    'I smell blood and an era of prominent madmen.' - W.H. Auden
    posted by thelonius at 8:45 AM on August 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


    "Chant like nobody's listening. March like you've never been hurt. Punch Nazis like nobody's watching. Remove all of those godforsaken Confederate monuments from the earth." — Anthony "Mooch" Scaramucci
    posted by tonycpsu at 8:50 AM on August 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


    You're welcome!

    Kyle Griffin
    Kyle Griffin @kylegriffin1
    Presidents George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush: "America must always reject racial bigotry, anti-Semitism, and hatred in all forms." (IMG of statement at tweet)
    posted by Room 641-A at 8:53 AM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Spiderman, Spiderman
    Does whatever a spider can
    Using force, stops a theft
    So much for the tolerant left
    posted by saturday_morning at 8:54 AM on August 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


    Frowner, if I remember right you live somewhere relatively cool. What would you suggest for those of us who live in very warm climates, particularly during the summer? I have a PPE requirement at work that requires long pants in certain work activities, for example, and I also have a 30-minute walk as part of my commute... and these things are incompatible to the point that I now keep a spare pair of sweats at work. It's routinely in the high 90s Fahrenheit here.

    I hear that for example the March on Google protests for this weekend are cancelled (thank fuck, it is August), and so are the A&M alt-right rallies as mentioned upthread. But I think it's a matter of time before I wind up seeing something like this showing up in my home state, and I want to be prepared, even if it is an event that happens in the summer rather than the winter.

    How do you balance bodily protection from these fucklords with keeping cool in that kind of heat? I own a cooling wrap, but even that requires getting supplied with water on a semi-regular basis to work effectively, and when I have it on in the most useful configuration I've found so far I, uh, look like I'm either in hijab or I'm a very short and startlingly pear shaped potentially militant terrorist. This is not how I would like to be photographed on the evening news. The wrap design requires being exposed to the air to work, also--it works by evaporative cooling--so it's not like I can wear it under my clothes very effectively.
    posted by sciatrix at 8:55 AM on August 16, 2017


    Just now:

    "You tried to kill my child to shut her up. Well guess what? You just magnified her." -- Susan Bro, Heather Heyer's mom, at her daughter's memorial service.
    posted by Room 641-A at 8:55 AM on August 16, 2017 [71 favorites]


    (That said, hell yes will I be packing it at any event where I expect to be facing pepper spray or mace, because duh. I may invest in one that is in a brighter, less potentially fascist color--pink, perhaps, despite my dislike of the color.)
    posted by sciatrix at 8:56 AM on August 16, 2017


    American Terrorist Christopher Cantwell balls his eyes out

    Piece of shit. Crying about how leftists won't let him have a law abiding demonstration and have the government redress their grievances. He doesn't want to die at the hands of police.

    The fucking irony.
    posted by Talez at 9:01 AM on August 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Frowner, if I remember right you live somewhere relatively cool.

    Minnesota gets hot and muggy, but yeah, not Texas hot and muggy. Hot enough that heavy clothes are uncomfortable.

    My suggestions, modulo for your life, would be sturdy shoes with wicking socks, wide legged pants in a medium weight fabric, short sleeved or sleeveless shirt and an overshirt in your backpack. My guess is that if things are really going to go down with right wingers, you would have some time as this became apparent, and could put the shirt on, and better overheated than god-knows-what. Or what about leggings and a tee, or cropped pants and a tee? I feel like it's more arms, neck, head, toes and face than legs, legs are fairly robust and also conveniently far from your face.

    Also, of course, pop a scarf in your backpack - I have a floral square in case I need a facemask. (Also, if you have extras, you can give them away - someone gave me one at one of the Philando Castile ones last year and it was moderately helpful, helpful enough that I was glad to have it.
    posted by Frowner at 9:03 AM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    "American Terrorist Christopher Cantwell balls his eyes out"
    "Bawls." I think it's "Bawls his eyes out."
    "Balls his eyes out" means something different.
    At least it did when I was a kid.
    posted by Floydd at 9:05 AM on August 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


    With, like, a melon scoop?
    posted by Artw at 9:21 AM on August 16, 2017 [20 favorites]


    "If your right eye causes you to stumble, ball it out and throw it away from you."
    Matthew 5:29
    posted by Floydd at 9:27 AM on August 16, 2017 [11 favorites]



    Looks like Daily Stormer that was rejected by GoDaddy and the domain cancelled by google is now....drumroll....Dailystormer.ru.

    Racist Daily Stormer moves to Russian domain after losing .com address
    posted by Jalliah at 9:28 AM on August 16, 2017 [54 favorites]


    2017 stahhp
    posted by fleacircus at 9:30 AM on August 16, 2017 [24 favorites]



    Racist Daily Stormer moves to Russian domain after losing .com address

    This is possibly the least surprising thing I've read all week.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 9:32 AM on August 16, 2017 [52 favorites]


    Maybe Russia and Nazis being heavily invested in each other will be the next "surprising" discovery for all the people who have apparently ignored all the news for the last 2-3 years.
    posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on August 16, 2017 [37 favorites]


    Yair Netanyahu says leftists more dangerous than neo-Nazis
    Weighing in on the weekend’s violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, during a far-right march, and US President Donald Trump’s controversial statements that “both sides were to blame” for the deadly incident, Yair Netanyahu said he was far more concerned by leftist organizations that have recently come into public focus.

    “To put things in perspective,” Netanyahu wrote on Facebook, “I’m a Jew, I’m an Israeli, the neo nazis scums [sic] in Virginia hate me and my country. But they belong to the past. Their breed is dying out.

    “However the thugs of Antifa and [Black Lives Matter] who hate my country (and America too in my view) just as much are getting stronger and stronger and becoming super dominant in American universities and public life.”
    posted by chris24 at 10:15 AM on August 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


    “However the thugs of Antifa and [Black Lives Matter] who hate my country (and America too in my view) just as much are getting stronger and stronger and becoming super dominant in American universities and public life.”

    DUDE. THEY WERE CARRYING TORCHES CHANTING "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!"

    At least the left hates your Dad not your people.
    posted by Talez at 10:20 AM on August 16, 2017 [41 favorites]




    That piece is very interesting, Mchelly:
    Anti-Semitism often functions as a readily available language for all manner of bigotry—a Rosetta Stone that can translate animus toward one group into a universal hate for many groups. “Ever since St. Paul, Christianity and all the religions born from it—Islam, the secular philosophies of Europe, etc.—learned to think about their world in terms of overcoming the dangers of Judaism,” said Nirenberg. “We have these really basic building blocks … for thinking about the world and what’s wrong with it … by thinking about Judaism.
    posted by Miko at 10:28 AM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Jim Loewen has focused on this issue a lot and edited the volume The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader.

    Thanks for posting this, Miko. Really enjoying it and its companion website.
    posted by Coventry at 10:43 AM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Not that I'm ignoring the hundreds of men, but I want close up pictures of every woman in the crowd during the Citronella Putsch on Friday night. I want to know who they are. I want every one of these Ilse Koch wannabes to have to answer for their presence there.
    posted by Sophie1 at 10:43 AM on August 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


    Maggie Penman/NPR: The View Of Charlottesville, From Berlin
    Seeing the images of young men carrying torches and chanting was perhaps surreal in Washington, but among Berliners there was an added layer of disbelief. While President Trump was being criticized for not explicitly condemning the white nationalist groups responsible for Saturday's violence, Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman called the march "absolutely repulsive" and denounced the "outrageous racism, anti-Semitism and hate in its most despicable form."

    One reason for not preserving Hitler's bunker was that it was feared that the site might become a place of pilgrimage for neo-Nazis; a place of violence and shameless celebration of a history that should be shameful. On Saturday, in a park in Charlottesville, a statue of General Lee became just that. The fact that marchers said their goal was to "take back America" seems especially ironic, since they were celebrating one of the very people whose explicit aim was to dismantle the nation.

    Often the argument for preserving Confederate statues and allowing Confederate flags is that we should not forget our history. In Germany, Nazi buildings are extremely hard to come by — nearly all have been destroyed. Yet Germany certainly has not forgotten anything: There's just a recognition that remembering and memorializing are two different things.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 10:44 AM on August 16, 2017 [61 favorites]


    I found these two articles tremendously illuminating.

    Understanding Alt-Right Antisemitism:
    These times are made even more strange and frightening, for the American Jewish community, by the fact that the state of Israel, far from serving as a progressive ‘light unto the nations’ or protecting Jews against antisemitism, stands in full support of Donald Trump and, increasingly, the forces of right-populism sweeping the world. Israel lends to the new fascism a valuable public relations tool, allowing leaders like Trump to deny charges of antisemitism, on the one hand, and to lend a ‘kosher’ stamp of approval to the ‘Judeo-Christian’ war against Islam, on the other. And while the institutional leaders of American Jewry lay awake at night, worrying about the latest campus plot to delegitimize Israel, the fastest-growing white supremacist movement America has seen in decades sets its sights, not on Israel, but squarely on American Jewry itself.
    Skin in the Game: How Antisemitism Animates White Nationalism:
    It helped that, despite its blood-curdling anti-Black racism, at least some factions of the White nationalist movement saw me as a potential ally against their true archenemy. At the expo that year, a guy warily asked me about myself. I told him that I had come on behalf of a few brothers in the city. We needed to resist the federal government and we were there to get educated. I said I hoped he wouldn’t take it personally, but I didn’t shake hands with White people. He smiled; he totally understood. “Brother McLamb,” he concurred, “says we have to start building broad coalitions.” Together we went to hear Jack McLamb, a retired Phoenix cop who ran an organization called Police Against the New World Order, make a case for temporary alliances with “the Blacks, the Mexicans, the Orientals” against the real enemy, the federal government controlled by an international conspiracy. He didn’t have to say who ran this conspiracy because it was obvious to all in attendance. And despite the widespread tendency to dismiss antisemitism, notwithstanding its daily presence across the country and the world, it is obvious to you, too.
    posted by galaxy rise at 11:05 AM on August 16, 2017 [24 favorites]


    At least the left hates your Dad not your people.

    Were that only true.
    posted by maxsparber at 11:10 AM on August 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


    maybe twitter could kick the rest of the nazis off too
    posted by entropicamericana at 11:24 AM on August 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


    cut off the head and the body will die
    posted by Atom Eyes at 11:28 AM on August 16, 2017


    Cloudflare has a long history of pulling shit like sending the personal info of people who complain about their hosting/protecting Nazi sites directly to the site admins in question so that's surprising.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 11:33 AM on August 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


    It's thought-provoking to look at German war memorials to get a sense of how sculpture can be used to encompass terrible things that should not be forgotten. It's a complex and deeply difficult part of culture, and there's a world of difference between a statue of a general and a war memorial, but ever since I happened on the Kriegerdenkmal im Hofgarten in Munich on a sunny day twenty years ago I've been much more mindful of the many strands entwined in such things.

    I hope, when this fever has broken, more people will talk about this.
    posted by Devonian at 11:35 AM on August 16, 2017 [7 favorites]



    I like that this is happening all at once. Cloudfare cut us off!! I will tweet and call for action! Oh wait...dammit...okay Discord...oh wait that's already gone...I know I can youtube my reaction...umm not officially. &^%&^%
    posted by Jalliah at 11:36 AM on August 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


    there's always google+

    maybe myspace
    posted by tivalasvegas at 11:54 AM on August 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


    What was the Apple thing through iTunes? Maybe that.
    posted by OmieWise at 12:00 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Is Friendster still a Thing?
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:01 PM on August 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


    What if we put pressure on cable providers to stop carrying Fox News?
    posted by MrVisible at 12:05 PM on August 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


    myspace dumped 5 of the remaining employees this week and seems to be down to 1. none of us ever would have been okay with hosting these assholes.
    /derail from ex-employee
    posted by flaterik at 12:06 PM on August 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


    Is Theil not still their guy?
    posted by Artw at 12:07 PM on August 16, 2017


    The SPLC's Hatewatch Team have published Organizers and Leaders of Charlottesville's Deadly Rally Raised Money With PayPal, a list of radicalized purveyors of hate who were able to raise funds via PayPal. The list includes, Jason Kesseler, Richard Spencer, August Invictus, Identity Evropa, League of the South, Christopher Cantwell, The Right Stuff, and Patriotic Flags.

    PayPal should adhere to their own TOS and suspend these accounts immediately.
    posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 12:10 PM on August 16, 2017 [23 favorites]


    Is Theil not still their guy?

    Sieg Theil?
    posted by Grangousier at 12:13 PM on August 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Apparently dailystormer.ru is already gone.
    posted by dirigibleman at 12:14 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Apparently dailystormer.ru is already gone.

    Cloudflare kicked them off and guess who was hosting their nameservers...
    posted by Talez at 12:16 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]




    Apparently dailystormer.ru is already gone.

    Twitter has been mumbling about the Russian dns cutting them off but no solid confirmation one way or another.

    Needless to say there web presence and communication structure is in disarray right now.
    posted by Jalliah at 12:18 PM on August 16, 2017


    Anybody got a taste for Nazi tears?

    I am with you. Let us savor their sweetness together. Here's a fresh batch.
    posted by scalefree at 12:24 PM on August 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Two more down:

    Uptown Diner fires 2 workers photographed wearing Nazi uniforms (Tim Harlow, Minneapolis Star Tribune)
    A Minneapolis restaurant has fired two employees who appeared in photos wearing Nazi apparel and displaying white supremacy paraphernalia, an announcement on the restaurant’s Facebook page said.

    The Uptown Diner released the two employees after it became aware of the photos, which were making the rounds Tuesday on Facebook.
    posted by Room 641-A at 12:25 PM on August 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


    Watch the Neo-Nazi From Vice Charlottesville Segment Weep: ‘I’m Terrified’

    From the article:
    After a few pauses to pull himself together, a choked up Cantwell claimed “I want to be peaceful, I want to be law abiding, okay? That was the whole entire point of this.”

    “And I’m watching CNN talk about this as violent, white nationalist protest — we have done everything in our power to keep this peaceful,” he said. “We are trying to make this peaceful, we are trying to be law abiding.”
    And then...
    Cantwell’s tearful pleas are even in stark contradiction with his comments to Vice reporter Elle Reeve, who interviewed him for her report on the rally.

    Speaking of violence, Cantwell said “of course we’re capable, I’m carrying a pistol, I go to the gym all the time, I’m trying to make myself more capable of violence.”

    Just after the 7-minute mark, you can watch a shirtless Cantwell declare “we’re not nonviolent, we’ll fucking kill these people if we have to.”
    I mean... what?
    posted by Joey Michaels at 12:28 PM on August 16, 2017 [46 favorites]


    I mean... what?
    posted by Joey Michaels at 4:28 AM on August 17 [+] [!]


    PROOF that Nazis can be made to look like fools! Who claim to fight! But who lack even my own courage, and folks, that's a low bar.
    posted by saysthis at 12:32 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I mean... what?

    Nazi locker room talk.
    posted by syzygy at 12:34 PM on August 16, 2017 [23 favorites]


    maybe twitter could kick the rest of the nazis off too

    I've been reporting upwards of 40 or so per day on both Twitter and Facebook. Twitter has banned several accounts I've reported thus far. I suggest others do the same—this is a fairly low effort, although stressful given the content you must view, but effective form of resistance as it disrupts communication amongst the white supremacists.
    posted by standardasparagus at 12:36 PM on August 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


    Anybody got a taste for Nazi tears?

    I am with you. Let us savor their sweetness together. Here's a fresh batch.

    Oh my god. Everybody needs to watch that video. Soooo good!
    posted by Atom Eyes at 12:37 PM on August 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Trump’s business advisory councils disband as CEOs abandon president over Charlottesville views -- Washington Post
    President Trump’s relationship with the American business community suffered a major setback on Wednesday as the president was forced to shut down his major business advisory councils after corporate leaders repudiated his comments on the violence in Charlottesville this weekend.

    Trump announced the disbanding of the two councils — the Strategy & Policy Forum and the Manufacturing Council, which hosted many of the top corporate leaders in America — amid a growing uproar by chief executives furious over Trump's decision to equate the actions of white supremacists and protesters when he made remarks Tuesday at Trump Tower.

    But those groups had already decided to dissolve on their own earlier in the day, a person familiar with the process said. JP Morgan Chase chief executive Jamie Dimon, a member of the Strategy & Policy Forum, told employees in a note on Wednesday that his group decided to disband after Trump's news conference on Tuesday, in which he appeared to show sympathy for some of the people who marched alongside the neo-Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville.
    posted by Herodios at 12:42 PM on August 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Reps Nadler, Colman, and Jayapal introduce Resolution to Censure President
    Whereas on August 11, 2017 in Charlottesville, Virginia, a gathering of white supremacists, including neo-Nazis, Klu Klux Klan (KKK) members, and other alt-Right, white nationalist groups, marched through the streets with torches as part of a coordinated ‘Unite the Right’ rally spewing racism, anti-Semitism, bigotry and hatred;

    Whereas on August 12, 2017 in Charlottesville, Virginia, a car driven by James Alex Fields, Jr. rammed into a crowd of counter-protestors, killing Heather Heyer and injuring 20 others;

    Whereas President Donald Trump’s immediate public comments rebuked “many sides” for the violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, and failed to specifically condemn the ‘Unite the Right’ rally or cite the white supremacist, neo-Nazi gathering as responsible for actions of domestic terrorism;

    Whereas on August 15, 2017 President Donald Trump held a press conference at Trump Tower where he re-asserted that “both sides” were to blame for the violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, and attempted to create a moral equivalency between white supremacist, KKK, neo-Nazi groups and those counter-protesting the ‘Unite the Right’ rally;

    Whereas President Donald Trump has surrounded himself with, and cultivated the influence of, senior advisors and spokespeople who have long histories of promoting white nationalist, alt-Right, racist and anti-Semitic principles and policies within the country;

    Whereas President Donald Trump has provided tacit encouragement and little to no denunciation of white supremacist groups and individuals who promote their bigoted, nationalist ideology and policies;

    Whereas President Donald Trump has failed to provide adequate condemnation and assure the American people of his resolve to opposing domestic terrorism: Now, therefore, be it

    Resolved, That the House of Representatives—

    (1) does hereby censure and condemn President Donald Trump for his inadequate response to the violence in Charlottesville, Virginia on August 12, 2017, his failure to immediately and specifically name and condemn the white supremacist groups responsible for actions of domestic terrorism, for re-asserting that “both sides” were to blame and excusing the violent behavior of participants in the ‘Unite the Right’ rally, and for employing people with ties to white supremacist movements in the White House, such as Steve Bannon and Sebastian Gorka; and

    (2) does hereby urge President Donald Trump to fire any and all White House advisors who have urged him to cater to the alt-Right movement in the United States.
    Every Republican must sign a censure of the president -- Jennifer Rubin Washington Post
    Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), member of the House Judiciary Committee and former chairman and ranking Democrat of the Constitution Subcommittee, along with Reps. Bonnie Watson Coleman (D-N.J.) and Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) announced a resolution of censure against President Trump on Wednesday. . . .

    Republicans won’t agree with every word, but now is no time for quibbling. This is the test. They lifted this president to office and now they must disown him. The Party of Lincoln will continue, if at all, with those who are willing to condemn their own president for embracing these groups and individuals. Any Republican not willing to sign on should be voted out. Period. It’s the only litmus test that matters.
    posted by Herodios at 12:43 PM on August 16, 2017 [46 favorites]


    Eventually they're all going to relocate to socializing on Gab.ai, which was set up specifically to cater to alt-right gamergate FREEZE PEACH 4chan edgelord assholes and is based here in Texas, much to my disgust.

    This will make it easier for them to organize but also harder for them to harass people on social media, as no one is USING Gab.ai except the assholes, so they can only scream at each other with it.
    posted by nicebookrack at 12:49 PM on August 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


    @yesyoureracist Patreon account was "removed for not complying with Patreon Community Guidelines." There's discussion out there, but I don't wanna click on most of the sites that are talking about it.
    posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 12:55 PM on August 16, 2017


    Combating Racism After Charlottesville (NPR, Aug. 16, 2017) -- NPR's Rachel Martin speaks with educator and activist Brittany Packnett about how people can help fight racism and white supremacy in their daily lives.
    PACKNETT: This moment, as a person of color - as a woman of color is really about protecting my energy. So I'm very careful about the images and news stories that I allow to come into my space. I elect when to educate folks on this and when to pull back and allow others to do it.
    ...
    MARTIN: So how do you [remain awake and to choose every single day to engage in this issue]? Because a lot of people watched what happened in Charlottesville and felt a real sense of not just despair but helplessness. When you think about combating systemic racism, it's hard to imagine how one person changes that. So what do you say to those people?

    PACKNETT: The first thing that I would remind people to do is to not get discouraged - that this actually is conquerable and something that we can take action on. It can be very discouraging to be taking on something so big, so massive, so destructive. And so to - get in community with other people. It might be a book group. It might be you and your neighbors. It might be members of your family. But get together and figure out how you're going to work on this together.

    Educate yourself as to the fact that racism is not only real but that it's more than extremes like the KKK or even the individual, everyday slights. There are tools like Peggy McIntosh's "Unpacking The Invisible Knapsack" (broader discussion, short list) that gives you 50 ways in which white privilege can manifest in your life (PDF with all 50 examples). But awareness, you know, isn't enough. So we have to be aware, and we have to be aware so that we can be actively antiracist.

    MARTIN: What does that look like? I mean, I imagine a lot of this is just being willing and able to confront racism where it pops up, where it might pop up - in your life, in your family, in your circle of friends.

    PACKNETT: Being antiracist is absolutely about confronting racism in the moment where it pops up. It's about making sure that when you see a colleague of color being spoken over, that you acknowledge that in the moment. It means making sure that, if you're hiring for people, that you have an adequately diverse pool, a pool that would allow you to potentially be hiring a person of color. It means not just correcting your racist relatives, which is a very popular phrase right now, but also checking yourself when you see a black man walking down the street and you decide to cross it. Having the dialogue within yourself to say, why did I have that reaction, and how can I hold myself accountable to my own biases and disrupting those? When someone tells a racist joke and someone is offended, if the response is, well, it's just a joke, that's a covert form of racism. We need to make covert forms of racism as socially unacceptable as what we saw in Charlottesville.
    posted by filthy light thief at 12:58 PM on August 16, 2017 [15 favorites]




    Eventually they're all going to relocate to socializing on Gab.ai, which was set up specifically to cater to alt-right gamergate FREEZE PEACH 4chan edgelord assholes and is based here in Texas, much to my disgust.

    This will make it easier for them to organize but also harder for them to harass people on social media, as no one is USING Gab.ai except the assholes, so they can only scream at each other with it.


    Well, who is hosting Gab.ai? Do they own the servers outright?
    posted by sciatrix at 1:12 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Mod note: comment removed - NO DOXXING HERE
    posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:15 PM on August 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Judging by the whois, it's hosted by the Australian company Instra.
    posted by pxe2000 at 1:19 PM on August 16, 2017


    I won't offer any contact info, but it looks like Cloudflare is the CDN for Gab.ai. They've already shown themselves amenable to removing hate speech, maybe they can be prevailed upon again?
    posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 1:19 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    My thought is that hell, if gab.ai wants to capitalize on a market of Nazis, bigots, and misogynists... if that's the brand they want to cultivate... Set up an outcry. No quarter given. Anyone who enables them is complicit, and must own their part in providing aid and succor to Nazis.

    Free speech does not mean that we cannot shout back and make companies providing aid to the worst among men feel the weight of the shame they bear. And it certainly doesn't mean we can't demand accountability in the public marketplace.

    How clearly has gab.ai thrown itself in with this lot? I see they have some level of plausible deniability, but they've got a goddamn frog mascot. The dogwhistles are clear. What resources can we use to set up a hue and cry for gab.ai next?
    posted by sciatrix at 1:25 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Sorry, jessamyn, since he was giving it out in the linked video, I assumed that didn't qualify. My bad.
    posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 1:26 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I've only been around sporadically. Looks like I missed that jessamyn is back as a mod?!? Cool.
    posted by OmieWise at 1:31 PM on August 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I've only been around sporadically. Looks like I missed that jessamyn is back as a mod?!? Cool.

    Only temporarily.
    posted by zamboni at 1:34 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    This has all been so scary but also inspirational. Today there is a new petition circulating to rename "Jefferson Davis Park" in my city. It's a small, obscure, park; I wasn't even aware of it. He was not a part of our history, it's clearly just a racist choice of name. We have real heroes we could name that park after and I was happy to get the chance to sign that petition.
    posted by emjaybee at 1:39 PM on August 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


    We know Trump's father was arrested in a clan rally in NYC back in the 20s, they were a 2nd generation German immigrant family ... anyone know if there's a way to find out if Trump Sr was also a member of the German Bund ? are there historical membership records?
    posted by mbo at 1:40 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    If Patreon kicked @yesyoureracist off, is there some other way people can send them money?
    posted by phliar at 1:41 PM on August 16, 2017


    I don't have time to do it today, but should someone feel like digging in on gab.ai, here's something you might try:

    1. Note item #36 on the whois.ai FAQ page:
    What are the rules for using AI domains?
    At the moment the usage must not violate the laws of Anguilla.
    2. Note that a reference on the laws of Anguilla can be found here.
    3. Familiarize yourself with the relevant laws on topics like libel, indecency/obscenity, incitement to riot or unlawful public assembly, hate speech, and so on.
    4. Visit gab.ai (you'll probably have to create an account) and document any instances you can find of behavior that appears to be in conflict with any of those laws.
    5. Pass that information on to the domain administrator for the .AI TLD (seems to be one guy whose gmail address can be found on that FAQ page) and/or someone on the Anguilla government resources page.

    Nobody has an absolute right to the use of any country-specific top-level domain like .AI; it's up to the people who administer the TLD and those who the TLD represents to make that decision. I don't expect that one or two emails would do it, but given enough noise and hassle about gab.ai, someone involved with the domain administration might well decide that it's not worth continuing to allow these folks to use the Anguilla domain, especially if there are indications that those folks are in violation of Anguillan law.
    posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 1:55 PM on August 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Anguilla is a (tiny) British overseas territory in the Caribbean, and is 90% black. Decent chance they're not fans of Nazis.
    posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:00 PM on August 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Maybe they can be convinced to 'self-deport' from .ai? /hamburger
    posted by pwnguin at 2:03 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Also, just as a note of irony, a gabbai, in Hebrew is a person who essentially runs Jewish services (keeping them in the right order, that the Torah is being held correctly, etc.)
    posted by Sophie1 at 2:04 PM on August 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


    The Atlantic - Why the Charlottesville Marchers Were Obsessed With Jews

    Because they're Nazis? C'mon, this isn't a tough question.
    posted by msalt at 2:09 PM on August 16, 2017 [26 favorites]


    For those who need a pick-me-up: "Hymn," a new poem by Sherman Alexie, which ends with:
    My friends, I'm not quite sure what I should do.
    I'm as angry and afraid and disillusioned as you.

    But I do know this: I will resist hate. I will resist.
    I will stand and sing my love. I will use my fist

    To drum and drum my love. I will write and read poems
    That offer the warmth and shelter of any good home.

    I will sing for people who might not sing for me.
    I will sing for people who are not my family.

    I will sing honor songs for the unfamilar and new.
    I will visit a different church and pray in a different pew.

    I will silently sit and carefully listen to new stories
    About other people’s tragedies and glories.

    I will not assume my pain and joy are better.
    I will not claim my people invented gravity or weather.

    And, oh, I know I will still feel my rage and rage and rage
    But I won’t act like I’m the only person onstage.

    I am one more citizen marching against hatred.
    Alone, we are defenseless. Collected, we are sacred.

    We will march by the millions. We will tremble and grieve.
    We will praise and weep and laugh. We will believe.

    We will be courageous with our love. We will risk danger
    As we sing and sing and sing to welcome strangers.

    posted by TwoStride at 2:47 PM on August 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


    I feel like there needs to be an amendment to Betteridge's Law of Headlines for 2017. Any headline that asks "Why" about trump supporters, the answer is "Nazis"
    posted by gofargogo at 2:47 PM on August 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


    This just resurfaced on a friend's post - NYT March 2016: Commentators Argue over Trump and the KKK
    posted by Mchelly at 2:47 PM on August 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I'm in Boston and have been working on getting people to call city officials to request action on this Saturday's "Free Speech Rally" - which is actually an alt-right, white supremacist gathering, including many of the nasty-ass people present in Charlottesville. It's a repeat of a May 13th "Free Speech Rally" in Boston Common, by the same organization. Thankfully, the public outcry and anger over the gathering in the wake of the weekend's violence seemed to temporarily cow the Nazis: people like Kyle "Based Stickman" Chapman, Gavin McInnes, and Cassandra Fairbanks said they'd be pulling out.

    The Mayor gave a press conference yesterday where he said the "Free Speech" group hadn't applied for a permit yet, while reiterating that there would be a large police press presence around the event. However, I got worried when the police commissioner said that the group holding the Saturday rally are a different group from the group that held the May 13th rally - because that's not true, as anyone who's spent 5 minutes perusing the group's Facebook page could tell you. Where were they getting their info? (I used to be a reporter. This kind of thing isn't exactly rocket science).

    Then, the Boston Globe ran a notably mild profile of the organizer of the "Free Speech Rally," which portrayed him essentially as an eccentric kid who just Really Wants to Engage in Debate. Except....his Twitter account is filled with the nastiest kind of anti-semitic, transphobic, racist, and violent rhetoric.

    Unfortunately, we found out today that the city has issued a permit, and Kyle Chapman and Cassandra Fairbanks are back in the mix. I feel as if these white supremacists have successfully pulled the wool over Boston's eyes by constantly repeating the lie that they're simple, gentle libertarians who just really like to talk and stuff, instead of enthusiatic promoters of white supremacy and violence.

    Here's some numbers you can call, if you'd like to weigh in.

    Mayor Marty Walsh: 617-635-4500
    Governor Charlie Baker: 888.870.7770, 617.725.4005
    Office of the Police Commissioner: (617) 343-4500
    City Council President Michelle Wu: 617-635-3115
    Councilor Tito Jackson: 617-635-3510
    Councilor Ayanna Pressley: 617-635-4217
    Senator Elizabeth Warren (Boston office): 617-565-3170
    Mass Attorney General Maura Healey: (617) 727-2200
    Boston Police HQ (BPD Police Commissioner William Evans): 617-343-4500
    posted by faineg at 2:54 PM on August 16, 2017 [20 favorites]


    The Verge spoke to the CEO of Cloudflare about why they dropped the Daily Stormer:
    According to Prince, the last straw wasn’t an official post, but a comment by one of the site’s readers. “The thing that ultimately upset me was that on their forums, they were saying ‘Hey CloudFlare is one of us,’ which we aren’t,” Prince said. “So I got tired of it and pulled the plug.”
    ...
    Still, Prince insists the most difficult questions raised by the ban are still unanswered. “I don’t think this is as much of a free speech issue as a due process issue,” Prince said. “If you participate in a system, you should be able to know up front what the rules of that system are.”
    I think this is instructive as we continue to demand action from corporations and others whose services and (in)actions are enabling white supremacists and Nazis. Matthew Prince has genuine reservations about booting any website from his service, rooted in his ideals about maintaining neutrality on the internet. But when faced with that neutrality being taken as implicit sympathy for white supremacist goals or endorsement of them, Prince dumped the site.
    posted by yasaman at 3:16 PM on August 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Gizmodo has some more detail on Cloudflare's decision, including an internal email Prince sent to staff.
    posted by yasaman at 3:21 PM on August 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


    "I woke up this morning in a bad mood and decided to kick them off the Internet"

    That's so fucking rad to just be out with it so honestly and owning it like that.
    posted by Annika Cicada at 3:30 PM on August 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


    Here's the promised CloudFlare blog post.
    posted by scalefree at 3:38 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Jamil Smith: Why would Charlottesville racists do so much to protect a Robert E. Lee statue?
    In this way only does it start to make sense that racists would commit terrorism to defend monuments. The monuments themselves are terrorism. Thus the Lee sculpture honors a dishonorable man while encouraging his ideological descendants and expressing to black people that America is not ours, too. “White nationalist” is the appropriate term to use, since a white ethno-state is what Confederates sought and what their modern-day brethren still wish to achieve.

    After Charlottesville, it should be clear now to everyone that the urgency to rid ourselves of these markers of America’s racist past comes not from some childish desire to block out painful history, but to challenge a racist present. White nationalism is not just a cultural legacy. It is an ongoing public safety crisis, and should be treated as such.
    posted by zombieflanders at 3:40 PM on August 16, 2017 [31 favorites]


    Unfortunately, we found out today that the city has issued a permit, and Kyle Chapman and Cassandra Fairbanks are back in the mix. I feel as if these white supremacists have successfully pulled the wool over Boston's eyes by constantly repeating the lie that they're simple, gentle libertarians who just really like to talk and stuff, instead of enthusiatic promoters of white supremacy and violence.

    Especially given the violence in Charlottesville by literally many of the exact same neoNazis, the least that a city like Boston can do is to establish a large, well-armed police presence, establish a cordon around the site of the demonstration, and confiscate weapons including the "flag poles" and shields that the nazis favor.

    In the rally in Portland, the police sorta did this but maybe started too late? I saw a lot of flag-poles inside the nazi circle, though they were taking them later when I arrived. Portland's carpenters union made and brought a lot of thin, non-headbreaking flagpoles to swap out for the dowels and metal rods I saw, but the cops refused the offer. That should be a minimum starting point.

    I'd encourage making that demand when you call the Mayor and police. Or just take them away all together, people can hold up a flag with their hands.
    posted by msalt at 4:00 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Dahlia Lithwick collects stories from those who were in Charlottesville protesting against the racist mob. For me, this was an antidote to the deeply troubling Vice documentary linked upthread. I recommend it if you're wanting a heartening reminder of the strength that our side can wield. Worth reading all of them, but I was especially moved by this:
    Rebekah Menning
    Charlottesville resident

    I stood with a group of interfaith clergy and other people of faith in a nonviolent direct action meant to keep the white nationalists from entering the park to their hate rally. We had far fewer people holding the line than we had hoped for, and frankly, it wasn’t enough. No police officers in sight (that I could see from where I stood), and we were prepared to be beaten to a bloody pulp to show that while the state permitted white nationalists to rally in hate, in the many names of God, we did not. But we didn’t have to because the anarchists and anti-fascists got to them before they could get to us. I’ve never felt more grateful and more ashamed at the same time. The antifa were like angels to me in that moment.
    These are the people Trump and his grotesque minions are smearing with the "alt-left" label. As a minister says later in the piece, "I didn’t see any racial justice protesters with weapons; as for antifa, anything they brought I would only categorize as community defense tools and nothing more. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees—including most clergy."
    posted by informavore at 4:11 PM on August 16, 2017 [49 favorites]


    @jesticide "Fucking unbelievable that 2017 still has this much gas in the tank" [spoiler: it involves a pro-trump rally clashing with a Juggalo march, and threats made]
    posted by Buntix at 4:22 PM on August 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Goddammit, this shit spreads: White supremacist posters targeting students placed at Melbourne high schools . (That's Melbourne, Australia, not Melbourne, Florida.)
    posted by nnethercote at 4:33 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    This paragraph from Ben Lorber's "Understanding Alt-Right Antisemitism" is so good because it makes it clear how economic anxieties have continually been subverted for racist/fascist/antisemitic purposes. Yes, 21st globalization has sucked for many. Yes, 20th century modernity sucked for many. But instead of actually confronting the internal logics of capitalism that make worker exploitation and environmental degradation into "good business," we just scapegoat people who have come to symbolize globalization and channel that into xenophobic violence and rhetoric (Vincent Chin in 1982, Balbir Singh Sodhi in 2001, and all those targeted today).
    Indeed, the ideology of antisemitism appealed so strongly to 20th-century ultra-capitalists like Henry Ford because, in the image of the Jew-as-banker, it singled out one aspect of capitalism- the system of international finance- for condemnation, while portraying other strongholds of exploitation- like large landowners, and the titans of big industry- as patriotic defenders of the national interest. As Postone explains, modern antisemitism- which, four decades before Hitler took power, was already called ‘the socialism of fools’ by worker’s movements in Europe- was a “particularly pernicious fetish form” because it tricked people into believing that, by uprooting the Jews from Europe, they were actually liberating themselves from capitalist exploitation. The “power and danger” of such meta-scapegoating, in any era of ultranationalism triggered by rapacious capitalism, is that it offers the mirage of a ““comprehensive worldview which explains and gives form to certain modes of anticapitalist discontent in a manner that leaves capitalism intact, by attacking the personifications of that social form.”
    [Thank you galaxy rise for the rec]
    posted by spamandkimchi at 4:58 PM on August 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


    It's been a rough week at Fox News. "I feel there's nothing any of us can say right now without being judged!"
    posted by scalefree at 5:12 PM on August 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


    The very definition of crocodile tears.
    posted by rhizome at 5:14 PM on August 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


    It's been a rough week at Fox News. "I feel there's nothing any of us can say right now without being judged!"

    If you're about to sympathize with Nazis and white supremacists, you're fucking right you racist fucking fascist.
    posted by chris24 at 5:15 PM on August 16, 2017 [64 favorites]


    Gosh, until now I hadn't realized who the real victims were here. My heart goes out to all of the Fox News personalities who fear being judged for something they didn't do. What a nightmare -- can you even imagine what that must be like? To be pre-judged for something you have no control over?

    F'ing hell. Where do they find these people?
    posted by Nerd of the North at 5:28 PM on August 16, 2017 [39 favorites]


    Juggalos, Jennifer Rubin, the National Park Service, Teen Vogue, pussy hat knitters and Bill "Bag of Salted Dicks" Kristol are all pitching in to defeat Nazis on the March.

    Kevin Smith is directing 2017.

    Hoping 2018 goes to John Waters.
    posted by delfin at 5:39 PM on August 16, 2017 [45 favorites]


    Another bright spot of "not all humans are terrible" in Charlottesville: The Brody Jewish Center / Hillel at UVA for Jewish student life on campus was linked in support threads like this thread earlier (longer post here). The Brody Center reports in email that they've received a wave of donations this week in response:
    "Your recent support has overwhelmed us at the Brody Jewish Center and shown us how large and loving our community truly is. Thank you. [...] You will be receiving your tax acknowledgement for your gift this month, but please forgive us for the delay as we are processing an influx of gifts."
    Here's a statement from the Brody Jewish Center director, Rabbi Jake Rubin.
    posted by nicebookrack at 5:41 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    My real fear is that they're bringing Andrei Tarkovsky back for 2018.
    posted by OmieWise at 5:43 PM on August 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


    It's been a rough week at Fox News. "I feel there's nothing any of us can say right now without being judged!"

    It's so fucking simple - if you claim you're not racist and don't want to be judged as one, but find yourself on the same side of the argument as a bunch of stupid fuckers waving swastikas and chanting "blood and soil" and other bigoted bullshit, then maybe, just maybe, it's time to rethink your god damned position, otherwise, to everyone else, if it looks like a shit eating nazi and quacks like a shit eating nazi then it IS a shit eating nazi and deserves all the negativity (and punches) that comes its way.

    Sorry for the outburst - I'm not even American, but I am sick to my stomach witnessing the rise of fascism in such a powerful nation.
    posted by dazed_one at 5:48 PM on August 16, 2017 [41 favorites]


    "I feel there's nothing any of us can say right now without being judged!"

    Fun fact! It is possible to be judged positively, if you do the right thing. I know this is surprising because it has never happened to you before.
    posted by ckape at 5:49 PM on August 16, 2017 [34 favorites]


    dazed_one: "It's so fucking simple"

    Apparently, the only thing racists hate more than being called racist is actually not doing and saying racist stuff. It's a great conundrum.
    posted by mhum at 6:01 PM on August 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


    "There are no good Nazis and no good members of the Klan. Thankfully, in modern America, the KKK and Nazis are small fringe groups that have never been welcome in the GOP," -- The Republican Jewish Coalition urges moral clarity from Trump. I wish it was a stronger condemnation, but I guess Republicans gotta repub.
    posted by Mchelly at 6:09 PM on August 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Rabbi Lookstein, who did Ivanka's conversion (and pulled out of giving an invocation at the RNC last year after a rather public effort to get him to reconsider), also finally put out a statement. The heart of it:
    We are appalled by this resurgence of bigotry and antisemitism, and the renewed vigor of the neo-Nazis, KKK, and alt-right

    While we avoid politics, we are deeply troubled by the moral equivalency and equivocation President Trump has offered in his response to this act of violence.
    posted by zachlipton at 6:15 PM on August 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


    So there is a conservative cartoonist's work making the rounds on Twitter - it depicts a statue of Robert E. Lee, and a giant hand holding an eraser, trying to erase the statue (the eraser is helpfully labelled "Political Correctness" and the hand is labelled "Liberalism"). Beside it is the quote "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."

    I went to the cartoonist's Twitter feed and asked:

    " 'Doomed', you say? So you admit that following Lee's example is a bad thing?"

    He has not yet responded. We shall see what transpires.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:18 PM on August 16, 2017 [22 favorites]




    anyone know if there's a way to find out if Trump Sr was also a member of the German Bund

    There might be a way, but as to his participation, I doubt it -- for one thing, Fred pere had been deported from Germany when he tried to repatriate (around 1905), and Fred fils ended up being a government contractor building military barracks during the war. Besides, the KKK and Nazi Germany didn't get along as well as you'd suspect.

    The very definition of crocodile tears.

    She wasn't even slightly crying for any victims besides herself.
    posted by dhartung at 6:30 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    It's been a rough week at Fox News. "I feel there's nothing any of us can say right now without being judged!"

    That right there is a case of performative white fragility. Yeah, let's all take a time-out from discussing racist terrorism and murder and instead focus on what's important -- how a white person is well-meaning, knows "what's in [their] heart" and all this is so terribly unfair that they are being judged, that they have to worry about what they say and do.

    As Robin DiAngelo described:
    Those who lead whites in discussions of race may find the discourse of self-defense familiar. Via this discourse, whites position themselves as victimized, slammed, blamed, attacked, and being used as “punching bag[s]” (DiAngelo, 2006c). Whites who describe interactions in this way are responding to the articulation of counter narratives; nothing physically out of the ordinary has ever occurred in any inter-racial discussion that I am aware of. These self-defense claims work on multiple levels to: position the speakers as morally superior while obscuring the true power of their social locations; blame others with less social power for their discomfort; falsely position that discomfort as dangerous; and reinscribe racist imagery. This discourse of victimization also enables whites to avoid responsibility for the racial power and privilege they wield. By positioning themselves as victims of anti-racist efforts, they cannot be the beneficiaries of white privilege. Claiming that they have been treated unfairly via a challenge to their position or an expectation that they listen to the perspectives and experiences of people of color, they are able to demand that more social resources (such as time and attention) be channeled in their direction to help them cope with this mistreatment.

    A cogent example of White Fragility occurred recently during a workplace anti-racism training I co-facilitated with an inter-racial team. One of the white participants left the session and went back to her desk, upset at receiving (what appeared to the training team as) sensitive and diplomatic feedback on how some of her statements had impacted several people of color in the room. At break, several other white participants approached us (the trainers) and reported that they had talked to the woman at her desk, and she was very upset that her statements had been challenged. They wanted to alert us to the fact that she literally “might be having a heart-attack.” Upon questioning from us, they clarified that they meant this literally. These co-workers were sincere in their fear that the young woman might actually physically die as a result of the feedback. Of course, when news of the woman’s potentially fatal condition reached the rest of the participant group, all attention was immediately focused back onto her and away from the impact she had had on the people of color. As Vodde (2001) states, “If privilege is defined as a legitimization of one’s entitlement to resources, it can also be defined as permission to escape or avoid any challenges to this entitlement” (p. 3).
    Truer words etc.
    posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:32 PM on August 16, 2017 [51 favorites]


    DevilsAdvocate: "Great that they came down, but Maryland wasn't part of the Confederacy. Why were they there in the first place?"

    United Daughters of the Confederacy are busy little beavers. Also this sort of thing tends to be self perpetuating once set up but at the same time all the appropriate low hanging placement fruit has already been harvested. So once the United Daughters of the Confederacy set up a fund rising system, and a way of distributing those funds, and easy peasy preferred vendors to supply the statues/plaques/monuments/etc. it was really easy to set up new monuments (and thereby keep the funds rolling in). However the actual appropriateness of the places for such monuments gets less tenuous with each installation. Next thing you know you have schools in some random (black oftener than not) northern school district that was never involved with the confederacy (or might not have even been in existence during the war) getting named after some confederate general who was never there and probably couldn't have picked the place out on a map if they'd actually ever heard of it. It's this sort of thinking and inertia that gets plaques dedicated to deposed Confederacy presidents who happened to reside in Canada for a few months.
    posted by Mitheral at 6:53 PM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE:
    just noticed the neo-nazis doing security for white nationalist Christopher Cantwell are in HYDRA t-shirts. pic.twitter.com/zE7bYBTKT6— Anthony Oliveira (@meakoopa) August 17, 2017
    Great job with your Hydra Nazi Captain America, Marvel and Nick Spencer, GREAT FUCKING JOB
    posted by nicebookrack at 6:57 PM on August 16, 2017 [39 favorites]


    Alright, I have had enough you Nazi fucking scum. I'm sorry that this is what it took to motivate me but tonight I've been writing e-mails of support and offering to volunteer at every local Mosque and Synagogue I can find. I'm not religious but I'll gladly stand by the front doors, armed if necessary, to let my neighbors do their thing in peace as any American deserves to.
    posted by azuresunday at 7:16 PM on August 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


    They wanted to alert us to the fact that she literally “might be having a heart-attack.” Upon questioning from us, they clarified that they meant this literally. These co-workers were sincere in their fear that the young woman might actually physically die as a result of the feedback.

    A myocardial infarction occurs when an atherosclerotic plaque in an artery ruptures and partially or wholly blocks off one of the coronary arteries. I am shocked to find out that this can be caused in an otherwise healthy young fragile fucking white person being told they might maybe be racist sometimes, and I shall submit this finding posthaste to the relevant scientific authorities so that it can be included in all future literature. Who knew cardiology was so complicated?
    posted by supercrayon at 7:19 PM on August 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


    A friend shared this on Facebook.
    A common and seemingly reasonable argument for white pride or white nationalism is "why can't I be proud of my culture?"

    Well, you can. Always have been able to. We have Irish pride celebrations, we have German drinking festivals, we have Serbian food festivals. Any European culture you can think of has multiple organizations in North America dedicated to taking pride in their heritage and NO ONE gives them shit for it. But, you see, when you start talking "white pride", that's not a culture. That's a skin colour. There is no white culture, never was. There is no pan-European culture, never was. Europe is a continent, not a culture or ethnicity.

    Now, some of you are probably about to go "But wait! Black pride! How is that okay?" Well, easy. Go find a black person and ask them if their ancestors were slaves. When you find one who says "yes", proceed to ask them "what country in Africa were your ancestors from?" Do you know what their answer will probably be? "I don't know." This is because their culture was taken from them. It was beaten out of them. They were enslaved, Christianized, and then white washed. The one unifying feature they have as a people is that history of slavery and that history of being black. They can't have Liberian pride, or Congolese pride, or "insert African country" pride because they have no fucking idea where their ancestors came from other than the broad region of West Africa. Meanwhile us white people can often trace our ancestors to specific cities and regions. I can trace my mother's maiden name to a single fucking village in Ireland. I know where I came from. I don't have white culture, I have Irish culture.

    So that's why white pride makes you an asshole but black pride actually makes sense.
    posted by chris24 at 7:40 PM on August 16, 2017 [145 favorites]


    Turns out that Chris Cantwell, The Sobbing Nazi, appeared on the Colbert Show a few years ago.
    posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:40 PM on August 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Did we already talk about how Ben Carson woke up from his nap to say that people are overreacting to Trump's remarks?

    WaPo: Ben Carson calls criticism of Trump’s Charlottesville response ‘little squabbles’ being ‘blown out of proportion’

    See? That's why Ben Carson is in Trump's cabinet and we're not.
    posted by RedOrGreen at 7:44 PM on August 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


    They can't have Liberian pride,

    wow, good intentions and the worst example imaginable. "insert African country" is right.

    no, I am not just saying this to be a dick about a person who means well and I am sorry because I am positive it sounds that way. but LIBERIA. of all the places people might not know their ancestors came from.
    posted by queenofbithynia at 8:06 PM on August 16, 2017 [29 favorites]


    Could have said Rhodesia...
    posted by Justinian at 8:26 PM on August 16, 2017 [3 favorites]




    Well, l just came back from the unity rally in my town. All the town bigwigs were there and it was really nice.
    posted by jenfullmoon at 8:39 PM on August 16, 2017


    Let's talk about the United Daughters of the Confederacy!

    sorry about the JSTOR links. I'll send ya PDFs if you need

    The organization was founded in 1894 with the express purpose of telling the "true" history of the Confederacy - immediately beginning by calling into question the accuracy of conventional, dominant histories of the war then circulating in classrooms and in public.

    1918, minutes of the annual convention: "When we think of the costumes of the old black mammy and the colored coachman passing away, it shows how the new civilization is wiping out everything of the old and obliterating every trace of the beautiful picturesque of Southern life during the slave periods."

    Between about 1900 and 1934, they composed "catechisms" for children posing questions and answers about slavery and the "Old South." As rhetorician Amy Lynn Hysse notes, "..the women's rhetorical memory of slavery drew heavily from the Old South myth as they recalled the slave system as benevolent and the slaves as happy and loyal servants. Take for instance Cornelia Branch Stone in her catechism as she answered the question, "What was the feeling of the slaves toward their masters?" with the reply, "They were faithful and devoted and were always ready and willing to serve them"." Or how about "In another question-answer set, Allison asked the Children how they were "going to get true history"? The question prompted the Children to declare, "By having histories taught in our schools, written by just people, by joining Confederate organizations and listening to what our leaders tell us." The "just people" and "leaders" undoubtedly referred to the catechism authors and the chapter leaders of the Children of the Confederacy, and the "Confederate organizations" likely referred to the UDC, the C. of C, and perhaps even the men's organizations, such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Responses like this constructed the chapter leaders and the memorial organizations as authorities of truth and memory while at the same time, reassured the Children that the memories they were receiving were reliable." And then, more: "the catechisms described the Southern slave owners as kindly gentlemen and their actions as virtuous with Old South cult of chivalry rhetoric. West asked and had the Children reply: "Q. How were the slaves treated? A. With great kindness and care in nearly all cases, a cruel master being rare, and lost the respect of his neighbors if he treated his slaves badly. Self-interest would have prompted good treatment if a higher feeling of humanity had not" (11-12). According to West, the majority of slave owners acted with "kindness and care" toward their slaves because of their "higher feeling of humanity." Furthermore, reputation in the aristocratic Old South was evidence enough that poor treatment of the slaves was not possible. This response again acted as a refutation to the abolitionists' charge that slavery was a cruel institution."

    its first members' handbook, in 1959, provided a justification and argument for renaming the Civil War "The War Between the States."

    What were they doing in the 1980s? "The group's biggest success occurred...when President Jimmy Carter signed legislation restoring citizen ship to Confederacy President Jefferson Davis. Now, members are writing the Postmaster General urging that a stamp be issued to commemorate the event. In more general terms, the UDC takes credit for placing the Confederate monument on nearly every courthouse lawn in the south." ...."As far as is known, the UDC hasn't ever had a black member, although theoretically a black could join if she proved she was descended from someone who fought on the Confederate side during The War and if a chapter voted her in."

    I can't go deeper right now, I'm too tired. But even a cursory look at the primary sources is enough to reveal that this has been a really sick and pernicious organization - like many so-called "ladies' organizations" of the 19th and early 20th century, it might have come dressed in lace but it carried a sharp political edge in everything it did. The UDC was clearly among the primary organizations that promoted the nostalgic myth of the Old South, that offered justifications for slavery, that sought to shift discourse by influencing the nomenclature of the war itself, that actively worked to advance the narrative that the was about "states' rights" rather than slavery, and that sought to enshrine Confederate rebels through monument building on the landscape all across the US, at the very time when increased access and justice for nonwhite people was becoming the social norm. These ideas didn't just vaguely emerge out of the zeitgeist. They were proaganda refined and actively promoted by groups like this. I'm thoroughly disgusted by their history. They still exist.
    posted by Miko at 8:41 PM on August 16, 2017 [170 favorites]


    I'm curious, was there any even tepid ad-hoc "protest" of the Baltimore statues coming down? Because I know it was last-minute, and we know it was never about the fucking statues, but.... if we all managed to rally at airports hours after the racist travel ban, and none of these racists even pretended to show up "for the statues" in Baltimore, then... it's not about the fucking statues.
    posted by nakedmolerats at 8:49 PM on August 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


    An epiphany I had today:

    A common and seemingly reasonable argument for white pride or white nationalism is "why can't I be proud of my culture?"

    Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that overwhelmingly most of the time, this "taking pride in white culture" manifests as "insulting all other cultures"?
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:56 PM on August 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Miko, your comment is amazing.

    PDF's pleaaaase!
    posted by Annika Cicada at 8:59 PM on August 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Flagged as fantastic, Miko. Thanks for helping to cut through some of this gaslighting bullshit of the last few days with a truth-hammer.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 9:01 PM on August 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Someone photoshopped the Nazis as holding dildo torches instead of tiki torches.

    After reading this comment with regards mockery being the best strategy, an oversized rubber dong would make an excellent antifa weapon. That's a beat-down no racist scum is going to go home to crow about and would probably think twice about throwing back.

    Plus it doubles down on "cucking".
    posted by Ogre Lawless at 9:46 PM on August 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


    The National Park Service is going to take a second look at the permit for the San Francisco rally (Crissy Field is federal land) with an eye toward whether enough attention has been paid to public safety.
    posted by zachlipton at 9:47 PM on August 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Dana Milbank, WaPo: When Trump needs a friend, that’s what ‘Fox & Friends’ are for
    On Wednesday morning, I entered the echo chamber, watching all three hours of “Fox & Friends” — Trump’s favorite show, to judge from his tweets — to see if the hosts would defend Trump even after he aligned himself with white supremacists. It was a delicate task — some parts of Fox News Channel had already gone wobbly, with Kat Timpf calling Trump’s remarks “disgusting” — but Trump’s “Fox & Friends” friends gave it a try.
    Just watch the video. Trump is parroting those bloviating morons almost word-for-word.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:56 PM on August 16, 2017 [8 favorites]




    Oh hell yes.

    My hero.

    Grijalva to lead counter protest when Trump visits Phoenix on Tuesday
    This president is indeed unhinged and his comments yesterday emboldened, (and) gave justification to people who fundamentally go against the values of this nation,” said Grijalva in the video. "People driven by hate. People driven by racism. And people driven to make other people victims throughout this whole process."
    posted by MrVisible at 10:28 PM on August 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


    > Just watch the video. Trump is parroting those bloviating morons almost word-for-word.

    YouTube version
    posted by christopherious at 10:59 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Tangential to Miko's comment—from a century ago, an opinion piece in the Los Angeles Herald by southern suffragette Mrs. Oscar R. Hundley in which she assures her audience that in giving women the vote they need not fear the terrible looming consequence of giving negro women the vote as part of that, since measures are in place to assure that only "qualified" negroes are allowed to vote—The Alabama constitution, as adopted in 1901, prescribes certain qualifications for voters which result in the comparative disfranchisement of the negro in the state.—and anyways there are many more white women than negro women.

    So move along, no threats to white supremacy here. (And, it being 1917, she literally openly uses the phrase "white supremacy" and the newspaper prints it.)
    posted by XMLicious at 11:36 PM on August 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


    > Grijalva to lead counter protest when Trump visits Phoenix on Tuesday

    YouTube version of his statement
    posted by christopherious at 11:48 PM on August 16, 2017




    White supremacy was literally one of the ideals from which (WHITE) women's suffrage was built (large PDF alert). In the U.S. Post-Civil-War white female feminists were outraged at the possibility that newly freed black men might soon be able vote as citizens while white women could not.
    posted by nicebookrack at 12:00 AM on August 17, 2017 [19 favorites]


    Well, when you know First Place is not a possibility, you're going to fight hard to get Second...
    posted by oneswellfoop at 12:16 AM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    It's probably a little more complicated than that -- we don't know inner thoughts of all suffrage leaders -- but there's little question that a large portion of the leadership, particularly Frances Willard and the Women's Christian Temperance Union (as well as the less-well known umbrella, the General Confederation of Women's Clubs, which was a foundation for more general political activism by women) played a cynical and pernicious role in putting black women in the back of the bus, so to speak. This led to a long war of principles between Willard and Chicago activist Ida B. Wells, who believed quite fairly that Willard shortchanged lynching victims by blaming it all on the evils of alcohol [apparently by being the alleged cause of the black men doing the alleged things for which they were lynched without trial]. This account of part of that dispute reads like an outtake from the current ongoing Twitter bitterness between POC women and "liberal/centrist" women. It's so disheartening to realize that these lines -- cultural, class, and race -- are still clearly visible a century later.

    Note that other suffragette movement figures like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton deserve credit for not falling into the same trap.
    posted by dhartung at 12:56 AM on August 17, 2017 [18 favorites]


    Oh god, no they don't. Stanton and Anthony got really pissed that black men, but not white women, legally got the vote after the Civil War, and they went really racist. There were lots of suffragists who didn't, but Stanton and Anthony were truly shitty on race.

    Also, suffragette isn't a word that suffragists in the U.S. ever used to describe themselves. Militant British suffragists reclaimed the slur, but in the U.S. it was only ever a slur.
    posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:09 AM on August 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


    My bad, I didn't realize the distinction—the Los Angeles Herald article above actually used the phrase "suffrage worker".
    posted by XMLicious at 1:15 AM on August 17, 2017


    White supremacy was literally one of the ideals from which (WHITE) women's suffrage was built (large PDF alert). In the U.S. Post-Civil-War white female feminists were outraged at the possibility that newly freed black men might soon be able vote as citizens while white women could not.

    That was the reason for the first women's suffrage act in the United States, in Wyoming in 1869.
    posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:17 AM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Saladin Ahmed: for the record the icp position on white nationalism is impeccable
    posted by PenDevil at 1:20 AM on August 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


    A Charlottesville White Supremacist Stripped Down to Escape Protesters and We Got It on Video
    The video of this part-time Nazi, this junior secessionist, is a perfect portrait of the very white privilege the so-called “alt-right” decries as liberal fiction. White privilege isn’t just an easy bank loan or the cumulative effects of discriminatory housing policy. It's also the privilege to disappear. The privilege to terrorize a community and return to your regular life with the ease of peeling off a polo shirt. The privilege to come to someone else’s town, invoke the symbols and slogans used to terrorize Jews, African-Americans, and countless other races in history’s darkest chapters, and pretend it’s simply your way of showing ethnic pride. It’s the privilege to engage in terror “for fun,” and the privilege to walk away.
    posted by Joe in Australia at 2:27 AM on August 17, 2017 [44 favorites]


    Ogre Lawless: "After reading this comment with regards mockery being the best strategy, an oversized rubber dong would make an excellent antifa weapon. That's a beat-down no racist scum is going to go home to crow about and would probably think twice about throwing back.

    Plus it doubles down on "cucking".
    "

    anem0ne: " I mean, it's a thing in the Saints Row games, the floppy pink dildo bat."

    Oh, I love this idea, but let's make sure when we buy our oversided protest-dildos, we don't get the pink ones. Get the black ones. That'll be the cherry on top of the Humiliate Nazis sundae.
    posted by mikelieman at 2:58 AM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Stanton and Anthony got pissed about suffrage because, in the initial proposal, women WERE included in the bill. The amendment that gives black men the right to vote uses the word "male", because lawmakers wanted to explicitly exclude women, largely due to an utterly stupid bit of political calculus involving Reconstruction.

    Stanton and Anthony (among many others) had pushed for an amendment that would have granted universal adult suffrage, irrespective to race or sex. Had that actually happened, I suspect our country would be unrecognizable-- Jim Crow laws regarding voting would have been dismissed immediately. We still don't have that amendment.

    The way that black men got the right to vote IS about intersectionality, but it's about a huge intersectionality failure right after the Civil War. To point to women's suffrage itself as somehow arising from white supremacy ignores the fact that it was originally a push for universal suffrage. Stanton (in particular) turned to white supremacist language because her use of the language of equality (of intersectionality, in modern parlance) got men of color the right to vote but left her on the sidelines.
    posted by steady-state strawberry at 4:18 AM on August 17, 2017 [20 favorites]


    The Monuments Must Go: An open letter from the great, great grandsons of Stonewall Jackson.
    [I]nstead of lauding Jackson’s violence, we choose to celebrate Stonewall’s sister—our great, great, grand-aunt—Laura Jackson Arnold. As an adult Laura became a staunch Unionist and abolitionist. Though she and Stonewall were incredibly close through childhood, she never spoke to Stonewall after his decision to support the Confederacy. We choose to stand on the right side of history with Laura Jackson Arnold.
    posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:26 AM on August 17, 2017 [76 favorites]


    This is kind of disappointing: the Washington DC March for Racial Justice has been scheduled for Yom Kippur.

    The M4RJ (which describes itself as "a multi-community movement") subsequently issued a statement that upset a whole lot of people. They then issued a subsequent subsequent response, which is perhaps the one they should have led with but is now probably inadequate.
    posted by Joe in Australia at 4:48 AM on August 17, 2017


    De Blasio is finally removing Philippe Pétain from the Canyon of Heroes in NYC (previously).
    posted by elgilito at 5:07 AM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Trump is tripling (quadrupling) down:
    Sad to see the history and culture of our great country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful statues and monuments. You.....

    ...can't change history, but you can learn from it. Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson - who's next, Washington, Jefferson? So foolish! Also...

    ...the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed and never able to be comparably replaced!
    posted by zombieflanders at 6:24 AM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Trump is tripling (quadrupling) down:

    "History and culture of our great country." Actually that was the Confederate States of America, not the United States of America. The country you're referring to was the enemy. And culture? Always nice to see a modern president stand up for white culture, white supremacy.
    posted by chris24 at 6:33 AM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Sometimes after you learn from history you can repudiate it.
    posted by The Card Cheat at 6:35 AM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed [...]

    Oh come on. I have never, ever heard someone describe a municipal monument as something "beautiful", that would be "greatly missed". Even larger ones aren't usually considered beautiful, although they may be striking or awe-inspiring. It's such an obviously covfefe excuse for supporting oppression.
    posted by Joe in Australia at 6:45 AM on August 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


    the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed [...]

    You've seen one 19th century white dude on a horse you've seen them all. They're literally the least interesting genre of sculpture.
    posted by dis_integration at 6:50 AM on August 17, 2017 [48 favorites]


    Oh come on. I have never, ever heard someone describe a municipal monument as something "beautiful", that would be "greatly missed". Even larger ones aren't usually considered beautiful, although they may be striking or awe-inspiring. It's such an obviously covfefe excuse for supporting oppression.
    posted by Joe in Australia at 8:45 on August 17 [1 favorite +] [!]


    There's the Arch!
    posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:52 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]



    Juggalos, Jennifer Rubin, the National Park Service, Teen Vogue, pussy hat knitters and Bill "Bag of Salted Dicks" Kristol are all pitching in to defeat Nazis on the March.


    I never could stand Jennifer Rubin, but she has been beautifully and amazingly vitriolic against Trump this year. Go Jennifer!
    posted by jgirl at 6:53 AM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    business closes as owner is accused of being nazi, white supremacist - i guess kalamazoo doesn't like that sort of thing ...

    what a jerk
    posted by pyramid termite at 6:55 AM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    I was one of those horse-crazy little kids, and my feeling was always: why did they ruin this beautiful horse statue with ugly bearded dudes?

    I would be behind taking the statues off the pedestals, removing the dudes, and letting kids play on the pretty horses.
    posted by emjaybee at 7:00 AM on August 17, 2017 [30 favorites]


    ...the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed and never able to be comparably replaced!

    The pigeons are already sad.
    posted by raztaj at 7:03 AM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I would be behind taking the statues off the pedestals, removing the dudes, and letting kids play on the pretty horses.

    Kopelski Twins Confederate Monument Modification Service
    posted by zakur at 7:06 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Another victim of collateral damage from the neo-Nazi attacks: UVa Library Employee Suffers a Stroke After Campus Clash With White Supremacists
    Tyler D.R. Magill, an employee with the University of Virginia’s Alderman Library, suffered a stroke Tuesday that may be related to injuries he sustained in a violent melee with white supremacists on the university’s Lawn Friday night, a friend of his family confirmed Wednesday.

    The article links to a GoFundMe raising money for his recovery…because he'd already used up most of his work leave time. Gotta love American healthcare and employee rights‼
    posted by nicebookrack at 7:09 AM on August 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


    I used to live in DC, which has a statue of a white dude on a horse at like every intersection.

    They're background noise. Literally no one gives a shit about them. Fourth Plinth the lot of them.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 7:10 AM on August 17, 2017


    This should be the last Confederate monument standing:
    Alarming Statue of a Racist and Horse Perfectly Honors The Confederacy
    "An allegory of the American South: In 1998, a fierce racist (who also happened to be the former attorney of Martin Luther King Jr.’s assassin) named Jack Kershaw created a monument for another bad man, Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest. The resulting statue is so hilariously stupid that we should keep it forever."
    posted by nicebookrack at 7:14 AM on August 17, 2017 [25 favorites]


    business closes as owner is accused of being nazi, white supremacist - i guess kalamazoo doesn't like that sort of thing ...

    "Craft Brew Nazi" is so 2017 I had to laugh so I wouldn't cry.
    posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:19 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    This should be the last Confederate monument standing:
    Alarming Statue of a Racist and Horse Perfectly Honors The Confederacy


    Why is that statue perfectly imitating the face I've been making for 2 straight years?
    posted by Rust Moranis at 7:21 AM on August 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


    If you want 19th century and early 20th century feminists who were not disappointing, may I suggest Lucy Parsons, Helen Pitts Douglass, Emma Goldman, Dorothy Day and Ida B. Wells?

    None of those women were perfect, of course, and they did not all like each other. (I wish the Lucy Parsons entry did not devote so much time to her feud with Goldman, especially because they each - IMO - almost willfully misunderstood the other.)

    It's like the Mr. Rogers thing, "look for the helpers". There have always been feminists of color and white feminists who were not racist (except in the "sometimes has wrong ideas due to received learning" sense). It's just that they tend to be more left and less respectable, and they tend to demand more - you needn't be an anarchist to agree with Lucy Parsons that working class people should control their working conditions, for example - so their role gets minimized even though they loomed very large at the time.

    It is really a lesson to us now that we need to look beyond liberal personalities and politics. It is too easy for "respectable" liberal politics to be recaptured by racism, sexism and class inequality, not because people who are liberal are individually terrible, but because liberalism as a theory is not strong enough on actually achieving equality among people. IME, many people call themselves "liberal" when their formal beliefs line up more with leftists and socialists - which is fine, take back "liberal", I'm not complaining - and as a result are sometimes looped back in to political structures that don't align with their beliefs because the political infrastructure of liberalism isn't that great.
    posted by Frowner at 7:22 AM on August 17, 2017 [48 favorites]


    the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed

    We are well and truly through the looking glass.
    posted by radicalawyer at 7:23 AM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    I used to live in DC, which has a statue of a white dude on a horse at like every intersection.

    They're background noise. Literally no one gives a shit about them. Fourth Plinth the lot of them.


    I'm partial to the statue of Joan of Arc in Malcolm X Park.
    posted by OmieWise at 7:31 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed

    Everyone tweet him "Why should there be statues for losers?" You know that's a sentiment he would ordinarily agree with. (Also, hey, traitors.)
    posted by puddledork at 7:35 AM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I'll respect the community standards about doxxing. But for me, those who participate in racist rallies are engaged in hate crime and identifying those people publicly is no more doxxing than if I were to speak to police officers and identify someone who robbed the bank down the street.
    posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:36 AM on August 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


    I keep having more activism ideas than I can actually produce. But I can see great potential for a movement to pepper the US with statues/memorials of real, legit, honor-worthy national heroes and their stories. Progressive monuments.
    posted by Miko at 7:48 AM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    liberalism as a theory is not strong enough on actually achieving equality among people

    Thus far no theory has been strong enough to do that. It appears to me that the socially and morally responsible liberalism of people like Rawls and Galbraith has done a much to help lift people out of poverty and stand up to oppression.
    posted by dmh at 7:55 AM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Wow, in Durham, hundreds of people line up to turn themselves in to authorities for the "crime" of pulling down Confederate statue.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 7:55 AM on August 17, 2017 [89 favorites]


    They're background noise. Literally no one gives a shit about them.

    I'm partial to the statue of Joan of Arc in Malcolm X Park.


    She's great, and I also like the Men Controlling Trade outside the FTC, and the lions on the Conn Ave bridge (but these aren't Civil War Generals, which I admit do become kind of boring in their equestrian repetitiveness. And how about those golden 'Valor and Sacrifice' statues on the Arlington Memorial Bridge? I've always thought they'd feel right at home in Mussolini's Rome.
    posted by Rash at 7:59 AM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]




    hundreds of people line up to turn themselves in to authorities for the "crime" of pulling down Confederate statue.

    Alt left indeed.
    posted by RolandOfEld at 7:59 AM on August 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Wow, in Durham, hundreds of people line up to turn themselves in to authorities for the "crime" of pulling down Confederate statue.

    Wow! Very cool.
    posted by OmieWise at 8:00 AM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Wow, in Durham, hundreds of people line up to turn themselves in to authorities for the "crime" of pulling down Confederate statue.

    I squealed with delight and then tears came. This is so, so good.
    posted by Jalliah at 8:01 AM on August 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


    This is kind of disappointing: the Washington DC March for Racial Justice has been scheduled for Yom Kippur.

    The M4RJ (which describes itself as "a multi-community movement") subsequently issued a statement that upset a whole lot of people. They then issued a subsequent subsequent response, which is perhaps the one they should have led with but is now probably inadequate.
    Speaking as a white Jewish person, but of course only for myself: I really appreciated their second statement and don't find it at all inadequate. They apologized for what happened, explained why it occurred, and explained how they're working to mitigate the consequences and to prevent it from happening again. What more can you ask for?

    I also take to heart this tweet by Mark Tseng-Putterman: Nonblack Jews: maybe, lets ask why we didn't know date of largest lynching in US history before we ask why M4RJ was scheduled on Yom Kippur.

    Solidarity is hard. We're not going to manage it by holding each other to impossible standards of perfection, but by acting with humility and compassion.
    posted by galaxy rise at 8:06 AM on August 17, 2017 [37 favorites]


    Can someone explain to me, a person who's state of mind can't really take a deep dive into the right's "media" cesspool, why I keep seeing BLM associated with groups like the KKK, Neo-nazis and other white supremacist groups? (Other than the folks who spout this being racist assholes)

    Like, I can sort of understand how the right can equate the violence coming from the their side with the violence sometimes perpetrated by Antifa. In their narrow scope violence = violence sans context.

    But BLM? Maybe it's me and my limited understanding and view of BLM? I see it as a response to the events of Ferguson and following. I don't remember any violence on the level of what you'd see coming from right-wing groups or even Antifa. I remember protests and vigils and awareness campaigns. I see signs in yards and stickers on cars (I live in downtown Atlanta). Am I just uniformed. Is there an event where a vocal BLM supporter just murdered someone because that person was anti-BLM, and this is what they equate with the violence coming from the right?
    posted by snwod at 8:12 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Because racism, my dude. Racism and aggressive right-wing / white supremacist disinformation campaigns to disseminate racism as fact and reality as #FAKENEWS.
    posted by nicebookrack at 8:15 AM on August 17, 2017 [40 favorites]


    From yesterday:

    Charlottesville Mayor Reveals That He Still Hasn’t Received a Phone Call From Trump (Justin Baragona, Mediaite)
    At the end of an interview on CNN this evening, anchor Anderson Cooper directly asked Mayor Michael Signer if the President has been in contact.

    “He has not,” Signer stated. “I got a call on Saturday that he was going to call, and an aide was in touch with me and said that I should expect a call and that never came.”

    He added, “And I was asked on Monday, sitting down with our congressman here, would I take a call from the president. I said, ‘Of course, of course, I would,’ and still have not.”
    posted by Room 641-A at 8:16 AM on August 17, 2017 [18 favorites]


    Some people on the right try to equate Black Lives Matter with black supremacy and incitement of violence against police (see: "Blue Lives Matter"). It's groundless, and basically just racism.
    posted by ChuraChura at 8:16 AM on August 17, 2017 [34 favorites]


    Snwod, there were instances of looting that happened in the chaos after police tried to kick out the protestors and they were fleeing the scene. The Alt-Right is using this as evidence that "see, they just want to destroy things" rather than thinking "or maybe it's just bystanders taking advantage of chaos".
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:18 AM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    See if you're saying Black Lives Matter you must be saying black lives matter more, which is why it must be countered with All Lives Matter (so don't rock the boat) and Blue Lives Matter (cop lives matter so more than everyone else's and don't hassle them about shooting people).
    posted by Artw at 8:23 AM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Christopher Cantwell (the super scary dude from the Vice documentary and the super pathetic dude from yesterday's viral 'crying nazi' video) does in fact have a warrant out for his arrest and he's still hiding, while claiming to be about to turn himself in. Here's a few choice excerpts from his blog which I am not going to link to:

    "Right now, I’m in an undisclosed location just outside of Virginia, preparing to turn myself in to the University of Virginia Police. I was informed by the FBI that there is a warrant for my arrest there [...] Right now I am seeking an attorney, and a trustworthy person nearby to hold onto my property. Once I have those things straightened out, I’ll be on my way to surrender myself."

    "My Google Voice is recording death threats faster than I can listen to them. Facebook and Instagram have completely locked me out, including my Facebook 'sock puppet' account. I’ve been completely banned from YouTube, to the point I cannot even watch the Vice News video about me, since one must log in to view age restricted content. [...] Money is not easy either. PayPal was the most important part of my financial life, and it has now shut me out. They won’t even let me withdraw the money in my account for six months. [...] I will investigate other options when I get out of jail."

    "I have had no trial, no process of any kind, I have only been crucified by Jewish media and financial outlets for daring to suggest white people have a right to exist, to have a history, to have a culture, and to have a nation. Imagine someone tried to deny this to the Jews and Israel?"

    (Some people did try to deny Jews the right to exist, have a history and a culture, and they were you in your last incarnation. Have fun in jail, fuckface.)
    posted by Rust Moranis at 8:24 AM on August 17, 2017 [88 favorites]


    If Black Lives Matter more than they currently do (which is like 0%), then obviously White/Blue Lives must subsequently Matter less, because there is only so much important Mattering focus to go around, and sharing any of that focus makes white people less important and therefore easier to murder with impunity. Like the people who already Matter less.
    [/sarcasm]
    posted by nicebookrack at 8:24 AM on August 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Are University of Virginia police his preference because they are super racist?
    posted by Artw at 8:26 AM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Imagine someone tried to deny this to the Jews and Israel?
    LOLOLOL. Yeah, I can actually imagine that, you fucking asshole.
    posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:26 AM on August 17, 2017 [29 favorites]


    Can someone explain to me, a person who's state of mind can't really take a deep dive into the right's "media" cesspool, why I keep seeing BLM associated with groups like the KKK, Neo-nazis and other white supremacist groups?

    Racism. If you watch the VICE video (with The Sobbing Nazi Cris Cantwell) she challenges him on this, and he pushes back to say that Roof, and McVeigh were isolated incidents, but that BLM is entirely about looting, rioting and executing cops.

    Media failure. A patriot militia type was arrested earlier this week for attempting to set off a 1000lb bomb in OKC, and that got run on page 7 of my local paper. He could have killed dozens or more people in an act of plain terrorism, but he's a white man, so....
    posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:26 AM on August 17, 2017 [19 favorites]


    "I have had no trial, no process of any kind, I have only been crucified by Jewish media and financial outlets for daring to suggest white people have a right to exist, to have a history, to have a culture, and to have a nation. Imagine someone tried to deny this to the Jews and Israel?"

    This is the process, you shitbird. First, there is a warrant issued, then you are arrested. The rest of the process comes later. In re the internet stuff: live by social media, die by social media. Private companies can fuck you in a lot of ways, and their responsibilities for due process are...not so strong. You should sue, shitbird.
    posted by OmieWise at 8:30 AM on August 17, 2017 [20 favorites]


    The first is from yesterday. I didn't find either here.

    Helena [MT] commission orders removal of Confederate fountain
    Helena Mayor Jim Smith said he believes the memorial poses a safety concern following a weekend of violence, including a death, at a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. [...]

    Native American lawmakers in Montana called for the memorial's removal Tuesday after a weekend of violence, including a death, during a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. The lawmakers said such monuments have stood for segregation, secession and slavery.
    Mike Huckabee: If General Lee statues come down then Mt. Rushmore is next (David Edwards, Raw Story)
    “Jefferson was not only a slave owner, but he had sexual relationships with slaves and children with slaves,” Huckabee remarked. “So if we’re going to be consistent, I don’t know what monuments we have left. I think pretty much all of Mr. Rushmore goes down. Quite frankly, and this is not easily known, Abraham Lincoln in his private writings said some things that were pretty doggone racist. Where do we stop? We don’t!”

    Huckabee, however, said that he could not defend the president’s claim that “fine people” were marching with neo-Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville.
    posted by Room 641-A at 8:31 AM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]




    Yeah, he's wanted by the FBI, so he's going to turn himself in to campus cops? Nifty plan, bra, they'll defend you to the death, I'm sure! Also, why can't he figure out how to get the vice video? I watched it yesterday without issue, other than it made me want to puke and I couldn't finish my salad, and I'm not registered with youtube. Perhaps it's for the same reason he can't get any info on the holocaust/civil war/last 400 or so years of human history?
    posted by Don Pepino at 8:34 AM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Can someone explain to me, a person who's state of mind can't really take a deep dive into the right's "media" cesspool, why I keep seeing BLM associated with groups like the KKK

    Because most white people find it "extreme" for Black people to protest for civil rights. Most white people distrust Black Lives Matter because it's a young, militant, Black-led organization, so the "whataboutism" of KKK/BLM is a very powerful far right rhetorical tool in speaking to the center.

    I will say that I had my "surely this" moments around 2013, because I truly thought that most white people would get it on the "no one likes to be beaten and shot" front, even if they totally ignored other instances of racism. I really thought that most white people would be like "no wonder everyone is a bit upset, people are losing their children to police and racist violence, if that happened to me I would be in the street breaking things".

    So if you can bring BLM into the conversation with most white people, it primes them to distrust people of color generally because they feel so negatively about BLM, which is 100% not the fault of Black Lives Matter.

    As a corollary, most privileged people find it "extreme" for marginalized people to advocate for themselves. White people who advocate for civil rights are "disinterested", so it's okay, or even civil minded; men who are feminists are just showing a gentlemanly regard for the ladies. But if a person stands up for themselves, they're selfish and hence dangerous.

    Also, hatred and distrust of Black youth is hard-coded into white culture, so people look at BLM events and don't see, like, a bunch of kids doing activism, but a bunch of dangerous thugs. Normally I would say "have you even seen a BLM event, it's a bunch of kids going on a march" but I have learned in the past couple of years that seeing doesn't help.
    posted by Frowner at 8:36 AM on August 17, 2017 [63 favorites]


    “Jefferson was not only a slave owner, but he had sexual relationships with slaves and children with slaves,” Huckabee* remarked jealously.


    * Friend to Many Pedophiles Mike Huckabee
    posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:36 AM on August 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


    [...] Money is not easy either. PayPal was the most important part of my financial life, and it has now shut me out. They won’t even let me withdraw the money in my account for six months. [...] I will investigate other options when I get out of jail."

    Two quick comments:

    1) I have an old friend who used to be a Constable, serving warrants, and one of his favorite lines was, "Follow me down to the police station in your car ( avoids any liability issues ) and I'll get you in and out.

    Getting him IN, yes. Getting him out wasn't part of his job description.

    2) Without bail money, when exactly do you think you'll 'get out of jail'?
    posted by mikelieman at 8:42 AM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Also, why can't he figure out how to get the vice video?

    because he doesn't have any friends?

    because he's not smart enough to figure out he could just go for another account?

    because he likes to whine and cry?

    you know there's tons of rebellious and anti-one thing or another people in history and practically none of them were such BABIES about things, even though they went through worse things than omygod my youtubey don't work
    posted by pyramid termite at 8:42 AM on August 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


    > (Other than the folks who spout this being racist assholes)

    There is no "other than." We live in a culture where a black man not standing for the national anthem is portrayed as behaving in an aggressively anti-white and anti-police manner: A black man taking a knee is literally committing an act of violence. Or where a black woman makes a video in which a police car disappears in flood waters is clearly indicating that she hates cops and white people. This is where we live.
    posted by rtha at 8:42 AM on August 17, 2017 [46 favorites]


    I have had no trial, no process of any kind, I have only been crucified by Jewish media and financial outlets for daring to suggest white people have a right to exist, to have a history, to have a culture, and to have a nation. Imagine someone tried to deny this to the Jews and Israel?"

    When you can't even stop being anti-semitic when you're pleading for sympathy. Yeah, it's those damn globalist Jews controlling everything.
    posted by chris24 at 8:43 AM on August 17, 2017 [14 favorites]


    I read a lot about Chris Cantwell last night, and an additional reason he might be shitting his pants is that he is on record calling for people to kill police officers in the past. So, if he is predicting they might not be too friendly to him, he may be right.

    W/R/T BLM, I had a long FB conversation last night with someone equating BLM to hate groups. His talking points were (1) their protests damaged small business owners in Ferguson etc and (2) there was some incident during the Millions March NYC following Eric Garner's death in which some apparently loosely affiliated group chanted "What do we want/dead cops" for about one minute. These, for him, overwhelmed all the other evidence and effort and the group's own platforms and statements. Even when asked to directly compare groups' written platforms, he would stop asserting that BLM condonces violence and hate. So, in the end, it's just plain racism, and indoctrination by people who amplify and craft these handy messages for justifying why you don't have to listen.
    posted by Miko at 8:49 AM on August 17, 2017 [20 favorites]


    Idiot Trump financial guy on TV: President Trump is creating jobs! For all races!

    I'm speechless. I'm without speech.
    posted by Room 641-A at 8:50 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    seen on Facebook:

    *sings merrily*
    If you're a Nazi and you're fired it's your fault
    (clap, clap)
    If you're a Nazi and you're fired it's your fault
    (clap, clap)
    You were spotted in the mob
    And now you've lost your fuckin' job
    If you're a Nazi and you're fired it's your fault
    (clap, clap)
    posted by dnash at 8:53 AM on August 17, 2017 [107 favorites]


    When you can't even stop being anti-semitic when you're pleading for sympathy. Yeah, it's those damn globalist Jews controlling everything.

    And let's not forget that blaming the Crucifixion on Jews is one of, if not the oldest forms of anti-Semitism in Christianity.
    posted by zombieflanders at 8:55 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Most white people distrust Black Lives Matter because it's a young, militant, Black-led organization

    Frowner, I know you most probably have more experience on the ground with your local BLM chapter than I do, and I know this is contrary to the overall point you are trying to make, so I'm not trying to single you out, but this seems important enough that it needs to be said anyway: from everything I have seen on the internet, and in life, and from BLM's own materials, Black Lives Matter is NOT a militant organization.

    I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, obviously. But this is exactly the rhetorical bullshit racists use to dismiss the BLM movement and the important work that it does.
    posted by schadenfrau at 8:55 AM on August 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Donald Trump: White Lies Matter
    posted by ZeusHumms at 8:58 AM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    I have been reading and appreciating this statement about why to not "share" the Crying Nazi video. Discussing it, sure, but just idle sharing may be counterproductive b/c it's basically Nazi propaganda.
    posted by jessamyn at 9:00 AM on August 17, 2017 [33 favorites]


    > Also, why can't he figure out how to get the vice video?

    That crying video is a common vlogger song and dance. It's a trope among shady (sometimes very popular) YouTube/social media personalities. It's been around since LiveJournal and Usenet, probably even before. People are laughing about the blubbering but it's an act. He's fishing for sympathy and collective action.

    Minor edit and a postscript: aaaand jessamyn beat me to it :)
    posted by halonine at 9:02 AM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    When you can't even stop being anti-semitic when you're pleading for sympathy. Yeah, it's those damn globalist Jews controlling everything.

    Well, blaming this on "Jews" is likely to get him more sympathy from the people he is pleading to, so that makes sense to me.
    posted by OmieWise at 9:03 AM on August 17, 2017


    Thanks for the replies. I assumed that it was pretty much the things you folks have said, but I just wanted to make sure it wasn't my own ignorance on the subject.
    posted by snwod at 9:03 AM on August 17, 2017


    And let's not forget that blaming the Crucifixion on Jews is one of, if not the oldest forms of anti-Semitism in Christianity.

    Which is so stupid because even if "Jews killing Christ" was correct the bible clearly states sin passes only to the third or fourth generation. Once you get to the fifth generation you're effectively in the clear.
    posted by Talez at 9:03 AM on August 17, 2017


    Further: I'm only asking for rhetorical clarity here because I think people on the left frequently use "militant" in its colloquial sense to mean, like, staunch, and vigorously active, while the people who are looking for reasons to dismiss BLM use it (and hear it) in a more literal "armed combatants" sense.

    And while I'm generally not a big fan of letting Nazis determine how we use language, given the literal meaning of the word, and given the current cultural context of actual armed Neo-Nazis in the streets, it feels like maybe the ambiguity is not so good.
    posted by schadenfrau at 9:03 AM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    David Nakamura/WaPo: Trump mourns loss of ‘beautiful statues and monuments’ in wake of Charlottesville rally over Robert E. Lee statue

    It's the theme of today's morning tweets.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 9:05 AM on August 17, 2017


    I keep seeing "88" stuff in usernames and license plates. I don't want to assume someone's a nazi but I'm feeling so paranoid right now.
    posted by charred husk at 9:06 AM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    "I will say that I had my 'surely this' moments around 2013, because I truly thought that most white people would get it on the 'no one likes to be beaten and shot' front, even if they totally ignored other instances of racism. "

    My "surely this" about the USA was Abu Ghraib and how a large portion of the country thought it was okay. That pretty much killed what was left of my sense of patriotism.

    But, yeah, I -- a white guy, of course -- was totally gobsmacked by the response to BLM. I still have trouble really understanding it, even though I well understand (intellectually) the analysis you present. But I'm pretty sure this isn't surprising to people of color, because the things you explain are their everyday lived experience.

    Like a lot of white people my age on the left, it's taken me many years to truly see this stuff as the endemic, institutionalized oppression that it is -- that it's not so much the stuff that makes headlines that matters, it's the vast structure underneath, the racist uncle and the not-so-obviously racist uncle -- that support the whole structure. And all the rest of us, to a greater or less extent. But, even so, what keeps surprising me lately is how much closer to the surface is all of what I previously understood as subterranean, ambiguous racism (and sexism). It's not so ambiguous, it's not far from the surface at all; and it takes very little for it to erupt into horrifying things that I wouldn't have expected from lots of people I wouldn't have expected.

    It's all so much worse than I ever understood. But, again, of course I'm a white guy. I've always had, and still have despite my efforts, blinders on. It depresses me, though, because if it's taken me so long to learn just as little as I've learned, then I have zero hope for those racist uncles.

    Anyway, it's not about me or about how surprised and horrified we white people are about this. It's reality, it's not a surprise to people who are the targets of this bigotry. I just wish that we white people would listen to people of color and, failing that, listen to other white people who are telling us to open our damn eyes. All these "surely this" are really just a measure of how obtuse we (or, at least, I) are (am).
    posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:07 AM on August 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


    I keep seeing "88" stuff in usernames and license plates. I don't want to assume someone's a nazi but I'm feeling so paranoid right now.

    Yeah, I feel kind of bad for perfectly decent people who were born in 1988.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 9:07 AM on August 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Ha! Same. I end up looking real hard at the avatar (if it's a real picture) and doing the they look like maybe they were born in 1988 guessing game. Sucks for those born in 88, I guess.
    posted by snwod at 9:09 AM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Last night I shot off a bunch of solidarity "I'm glad you're here" e-mails to local Jewish and Muslim orgs and have received kind, heartening responses already. These people see and hear soul crushing garbage all day so please, if you wanna do something that'll make you feel better after silently raging at the news, reach out. Even just a quick note will go a long way.
    posted by azuresunday at 9:10 AM on August 17, 2017 [18 favorites]


    I don't want to assume someone's a nazi but I'm feeling so paranoid right now.

    I am finding myself getting uptight and narrowing my eyes at dudes in polo shirts and chinos and not because of their bad taste in clothing.

    I'm living in a reality where I see some dude who probably is an assistant manager at a Best Buy and I get this skin crawling sensation as if he had a swastika tattoo.

    And to be clear: these are normal ordinary guys who are probably just wearing their normal ordinary guy uniform and now Normal Ordinary Guy Uniform gives me the creeps.

    It's unfair, but what isn't.
    posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:11 AM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Black Lives Matter is NOT a militant organization.

    Yeah, that word kind of stuck out for me as well. Personally, in the context of black people, I've pretty much only heard the word "militant" used as a proxy for violent, beret-wearing, hate-whitey, down with America stereotypes. "Black Militant" = bad and super-scary. (I am black btw, but only speaking for my own, raised in a decidedly un-woke household experience)
    posted by xigxag at 9:16 AM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    I have been reading and appreciating this statement about why to not "share" the Crying Nazi video.

    Yeah, I think we're better off sharing this edited version.
    posted by maxsparber at 9:16 AM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Heads up: He's really racist in the edited version.
    posted by maxsparber at 9:16 AM on August 17, 2017


    TPM: Paul LePage Says Confederate Statues Are Comparable To 9/11 Memorial
    “What they’re standing for is equally as bad,” LePage said, referring to the counter-protesters. “They’re trying to erase history.”

    “They should study their history,” he added later. “They don’t even know the history of this country and they’re trying to take monuments down. Listen, whether we like it or not, this is what our history is.”

    “To me, it’s just like going to New York City right now and taking down the monument of those who perished in 9/11,” he said. “It will come to that.”
    I know, terrible person saying something terrible, but still.
    posted by chris24 at 9:17 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Yeah, I feel kind of bad for perfectly decent people who were born in 1988.

    Back when I first started being active on the internet, I never used 88 in my usernames anywhere just because I didn't want to be ID'd as being that young. (Ah, early 00s fandom, where everyone 17 and younger was DEFINITELY in college, what are you talking about, how do you do, fellow adults.) When I learned about the other contexts for 88 some time when I was in my late teens, I was deeply grateful kid me never established any online presences with 88 in the username and instead added gratuitous 9s when my preferred usernames were taken.
    posted by yasaman at 9:18 AM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    EVERYBODY OFF MY LAWN (graduated high school in 88).
    posted by Sophie1 at 9:21 AM on August 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


    EVERYBODY OFF MY LAWN (graduated high school in 88).

    87. Born in 69.

    Guess it's good to be old or I'd be like llama69 or something and everyone would be imagining highly contorted llama sex acts when seeing my username. Not that you're not already doing that, you bunch of weirdos.
    posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:25 AM on August 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Paul LePage Says Confederate Statues Are Comparable To 9/11 Memorial

    Yeah, what's next: are they going to tear down that giant statue of Osama Bin Laden at Ground Zero??
    posted by Atom Eyes at 9:26 AM on August 17, 2017 [26 favorites]


    > EVERYBODY OFF MY LAWN (graduated high school in 88).

    Graduated college in 88. From an alma mater where it's tradition that you strongly, strongly identify with your class, so no joke if you meet a fellow alum 20 years later the first thing you say (possibly even before your name) is your class year. I don't even want to go to my class fb page these days because it's where people post photos of coincidental 88s (like, the odometer in their car). So weird.
    posted by rtha at 9:29 AM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Guess it's good to be old or I'd be like llama69 or something

    Sorry/not sorry for this derail but a guy I know has the last name Wild and was auto-assigned the email address "wild69" when he went to college. Come on.
    posted by uncleozzy at 9:30 AM on August 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


    And to be clear: these are normal ordinary guys who are probably just wearing their normal ordinary guy uniform and now Normal Ordinary Guy Uniform gives me the creeps.

    It's unfair, but what isn't.


    I think any white guys walking around in khakis and a white polo shirt right now who aren't actually wearing a work uniform are incredibly tone deaf at best.
    posted by ActingTheGoat at 9:34 AM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Libby Anne of Love, Joy, Feminism (Patheos): If America is a TV show, this season feels increasingly dark
    Since Heyer’s death, Confederate monuments have come down in cities across the South. Why does it always seem to require blood for change like this to happen? It was after Dylann Roof murdered nine African Americans in a church in South Carolina that Confederate flags started coming down. And now, Heather Heyer’s death is bringing down Confederate statues. [...]

    How do you stand up against such propaganda [that allots blame equally to each side], when up and down start to shift, if not for you, then for others—people you know and like? [...]

    One would think that this would be straightforward. It’s not as though the Nazis that met at Charlottesville hid their swastikas, or their plan to incite violence. Have you wondered why there weren’t any women there? Have you wondered why they came armed?
    posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:34 AM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Yeah, I feel kind of bad for perfectly decent people who were born in 1988.

    I always feel for our own rocket88, who's got a note to the effect that they're not a racist in their profile.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 9:36 AM on August 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Sorry, Trump, But Obama’s Tweet on Charlottesville Is Officially the Most Popular of All Time (Patricia Garcia, Vogue)
    “No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion,” Obama tweeted on Saturday evening, putting the Nelson Mandela quote alongside a heartening photograph of himself playing with children of all different backgrounds. “People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love,” he continued, “For love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.”

    As two days passed and President Trump continued to fail to condemn the racist rallies and violence, users on Twitter shared and retweeted Obama’s post over and over again, quickly turning it into one of the top tweets of all time.

    According to Favstar, a Twitter tracking site, Obama’s Mandela quote is now the most-liked tweet in Twitter history. As of Wednesday morning, it has garnered more than 3.3 million likes and 1.3 million retweets. In contrast, Trump’s tweet from the same day, in which he called the events at Charlottesville “sad!” has only managed about 11,000 retweets. (And you’d better believe those aren’t all endorsement RT’s.)
    Spotify Removes Hate Music as Streaming Companies Struggle to Police Their Tunes (Billboard)
    Spotify says it has removed an array of white-supremacist acts from its streaming service that had been flagged as racist "hate bands" by the Southern Poverty Law Center three years ago.

    The move came after Digital Music News posted a story headlined "I Just Found 27 White Supremacist Hate bands On Spotify," bringing the content to Spotify's attention. [...]

    "Spotify takes immediate action to remove any such material as soon as it has been brought to our attention. We are glad to have been alerted to this content - and have already removed many of the bands identified today, whilst urgently reviewing the remainder," she said in the statement
    posted by Room 641-A at 9:40 AM on August 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


    I think any white guys walking around in khakis and a white polo shirt right now who aren't actually wearing a work uniform are incredibly tone deaf at best.

    This is a perfect time for men of conscience to also try being a little more daring in their habiliments.
    posted by maxsparber at 9:44 AM on August 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


    I, for one, am incredibly glad I did not choose the white polo option when the logo gear catalog made the admissions office rounds earlier this year.
    posted by Caxton1476 at 9:49 AM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Black Lives Matter is NOT a militant organization.

    See, I think this is a subcultural thing. In the world in which I move, "militant" is good - it means "willing to commit civil disobedience and sometimes property damage, not being mealy-mouthed in your chants and slogans, advocating for radical change rather than reform, not emphasizing 'be nice and polite or no one will ever change'". Black Lives Matter would be described as a "militant" organization precisely as a term of praise, just as one might refer to the IWW as a "militant" union or the Seattle WTO protests as "militant" marches.

    It feels to me as though the "militant means too extreme rather than strongly committed and unafraid to take risks" thing has more to do with our culture's perpetual "if you're not nice, you are a bad, bad activist and you deserve to be treated badly" deal. "Militant" means "not nice", "not nice" means bad, and therefore any organization that we don't view as bad can't be described as militant.

    As a very marginal participant in BLM-led events, I have marched on highways, blocked traffic, sat around fires that had been built in the middle of the street as part of an occupation, llaid down on train tracks and been tear-gassed while doing some of those things. And, like, I am not some kind of hard core person, that was what everyone was doing and it was just the least little way of participating. Obviously if BLM itself prefers not to be described as militant, I certainly won't call them that, but the stuff they do is certainly more radical than the vast majority of political stuff that happens most of the time, and that's part of why they're one of the best activist tendencies I've encountered, pretty much ever.
    posted by Frowner at 9:50 AM on August 17, 2017 [22 favorites]


    It’s not as though the Nazis that met at Charlottesville hid their swastikas, or their plan to incite violence. Have you wondered why there weren’t any women there? Have you wondered why they came armed?

    There were white women marching with the Nazis. Not many, going by the video evidence, but some. I think the key is that these are the white women who affirm and support patriarchal white supremacy, and so they are the women who "know their place." There are a lot of them.

    Misogyny is the less visible undercurrent of the American Neo-Nazi / White Supremacist movement. IIRC from that Vox article, the only group the Alt-Right/Nazis rated as more subhuman than feminists were Muslims (scored 57 and 54, respectively). It worries me because it's less visible, and yet I also don't want to re-center the conversation when right now these people are visibly, vocally, attacking blacks, jews, and other minorities.
    posted by schadenfrau at 9:52 AM on August 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


    I keep seeing "88" stuff in usernames and license plates. I don't want to assume someone's a nazi but I'm feeling so paranoid right now.

    I move that going forward, '88' means Heather Heyer
    posted by mikelieman at 9:55 AM on August 17, 2017 [38 favorites]


    It feels to me as though the "militant means too extreme rather than strongly committed and unafraid to take risks" thing has more to do with our culture's perpetual "if you're not nice, you are a bad, bad activist and you deserve to be treated badly" deal. "Militant" means "not nice", "not nice" means bad, and therefore any organization that we don't view as bad can't be described as militant.

    Just look at the comments people made about the Durham statue removal. You would think that hordes of [insert barbarian cliché] were pillaging and ripping throats out with their teeth. It's like a small, controlled, organized group doing a limited, symbolic act of civil disobedience, and people's freaking hair was on fire.

    Crime! Vandalism! Chaos! Violence! -- that last one gets me because it's constantly applied to utterly non-violent bits of property destruction, trespassing, shouting, etc.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 9:58 AM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    And by people who probably DAILY break laws left and right: speeding, taxes, trespassing, and much worse stuff.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 9:59 AM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    PayPal escalates the tech industry’s war on white supremacy
    PayPal’s decision to kick nearly three dozen hate groups off its platform is “long overdue,” Hankes said. He said his center has been lobbying the company for more than two years to take action against the groups, providing extensive lists and dossiers about them.

    After a white supremacist killed nine black worshipers in a Charleston church in 2015, PayPal banned the Council of Conservative Citizens, a white supremacist group that the helped inspire the attack. But the current purge is of an unprecedented scale, activists say.

    “Our understanding is that this is just what’s the first to come, and that they are taking a hard stance,” Hankes said.

    PayPal has agreed to removed at least 34 organizations, including Richard Spencer’s National Policy Institute, two companies that sell gun accessories explicitly for killing Muslims, as well as all accounts associated with Jason Kessler, the white nationalist blogger who organized the Charlottesville march, according to a list provided to the Post by Color of Change, a racial justice organization seeking to influence corporate decision makers.
    Take that white supremacist copraphages! It's past time for PayPal to have cut off the money spigot, but the work of activists has finally got them to do the right thing. It's a shame that it took Heather Heyer's life, DeAndre Harris's body and blood, and the terror of the Charlottesville community to get them to do the right thing.
    posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 10:00 AM on August 17, 2017 [35 favorites]


    gun accessories explicitly for killing Muslims

    Ok, I have to ask, what particular idiocy is this?
    posted by Behemoth at 10:07 AM on August 17, 2017


    NYTimes has some nice photos of a peaceful candlelight vigil in Charlottesville. As with the inauguration, the attendees far outnumber the vile folk with torches last weekend.
    posted by stillmoving at 10:12 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Behemoth: "gun accessories explicitly for killing Muslims

    Ok, I have to ask, what particular idiocy is this?
    "

    I assume they just wrap their gun barrels in bacon and hope it will repel Muslims.
    posted by TypographicalError at 10:16 AM on August 17, 2017



    Ok, I have to ask, what particular idiocy is this?


    I am acquainted with people who are the target market.

    You are better off not knowing.
    posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:18 AM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    But do you know what Muslims really hate? Donuts.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 10:22 AM on August 17, 2017


    I think any white guys walking around in khakis and a white polo shirt right now who aren't actually wearing a work uniform are incredibly tone deaf at best.

    I generally wear black polo shirts to work and personally I've been avoiding even those.
    posted by cirhosis at 10:32 AM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    "88"

    In the days of telegraphy and Morse Code, many abbreviations for common words and phrases were developed to streamline the process -- similar to the current growth of certain abbreviations used in text messaging (lol).

    In 1879, Walter P. Phillips compiled these into The Phillips Code, which was widely adopted by telegraph operators, and later spread with Morse code to radio telegraphy. The abbreviations "POTUS "and "SCOTUS" can be traced to the Phillips Code.

    Part of the Phillips Code included two-digit codes for various common phrases that did not admit of easy abbreviation via initialism. The "30" you sometimes see at the end of newspaper and magazine articles also originated with Phillips.

    Only two* of the two-digit Phillips codes are still in common use in radio telegraphy: "73", a friendly salutation or sign-off usually translated as "best regards" -- and "88", a related greeting/departure sign usually translated as "love and kisses".

    To any ham radio operator or anyone else still using landline or radio-telegraphy: "88" = "love and kisses".

    -- 30 --


    -----------------------------------------
    * I vaguely recall people using "33" to mean "paid for" in a different context, but I couldn't swear to it. Other fossils may yet exists.
    posted by Herodios at 10:33 AM on August 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Oh, yeah, I forgot: In the same radio culture, "99" means "go to hell!"

    So depending on context, you can answer:

    "88."
    "88 to you my dear."

    or

    "88!"
    "99, asshole!"
    posted by Herodios at 10:40 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Re free speech and Nazis.

    This Twitter thread about one woman's memories of her life after Nazis took over her town in WWII is gut-wrenching. Her granddaughter didn't learn the story till they both went to visit Majdanek.

    That is what giving the Nazis a voice in 1933 led to. It led to my grandma sobbing outside a place where she was imprisoned.

    Read the whole thing.
    posted by emjaybee at 10:40 AM on August 17, 2017 [24 favorites]


    My son wrote this (public Facebook post) about Charlottesville, and about the statue / monument issue in general.
    posted by COD at 10:41 AM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I keep seeing "88" stuff in usernames and license plates. I don't want to assume someone's a nazi but I'm feeling so paranoid right now.

    Great Scott! 88 belongs to Back To The Future fans and no way in hell are Nazi buttheads going to take that away from us.
    posted by Servo5678 at 10:43 AM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    88 belongs to Back To The Future fans

    Ham radio and other telegraphers have over100 years on you, kid.

    See also May 4th.
     
    posted by Herodios at 10:46 AM on August 17, 2017


    Ham radio and other telegraphers have over 100 years on you, kid.

    What do a mere 100 years mean to a person driving a time-traveling DeLorean?

    /derail
    posted by Servo5678 at 10:49 AM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    One is real the other is a movie. See also May 4th.
    posted by Herodios at 10:51 AM on August 17, 2017


    I was just typing what Herodios said - 88 is love and kisses in ham radio morse code (occasionally in voice, but ham radio being rather heteronormative and hugely cis male in demographics, it's far less common than 73. Bear in mind that in ham shorthand YL means woman (young lady) and XYL means wife, and you'll get the idea A hundred years of cultural baggage dies hard.)

    In other fun Nazi morse code news - wartime German radio operators normally ended a message with .... .... (HH - Heil Hitler), to which the other end replied in kind. It was a standard trick for the Allies if they suspected a radio operator was a German masquerading as a friend to drop in .... .... and see if they responded reflexively.

    Given 45's habitual extended ellipses in multi-tweet messages, I am not entirely sure this has died out.
    posted by Devonian at 10:54 AM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Jeffery Sullivan: Armed Group Appears at Council to Oppose Statue’s Removal
    This is the second time that Burkhart spoke at a citizens to be heard session, but the first time that he arrived with a heavily armed security detail. Outside of the chambers with around 15 police officers standing nearby, Burkhart stated that a credible threat had been made against his life by members of the opposition.

    “We have threats on my life, we have threats on a few of our members’ lives that said they were going to shoot us tonight when we came here to speak,” Burkhart said. “They’re trying to silence me, which is not going to work. We will come armed every time and we will come [with] even bigger armaments if we have to. If we have to bring a bigger security team with us, we will.”

    Councilmen Treviño and Shaw told the Rivard Report after Wednesday night’s remarks that they would not be moved by intimidation tactics.

    “I think it’s sad that somebody feels that they have to make an argument by instilling fear first into the conversation,” Treviño said. “I think it’s unfortunate that they would do it like that.”

    “Using guns or threats of violence doesn’t solve anything,” Shaw said. “Like I said before: this is about an opportunity for the city to come together to … discuss peacefully. When you bring guns to an event, that doesn’t express peace. That’s violence, and San Antonio is better than that.”
    Conservative and libertarian gun owners have been suspiciously quiet on the many instances of white men using the threat of Second Amendment solutions to deny marginalized men and women their First Amendment rights, and especially loath to criticize open carry laws that actively increase the danger of gun violence. Meanwhile, gun nuts like these guys have been hanging around mosques for years now, and occasionally show up in PoC neighborhoods and places where gun control activists meet. They've even threatened to show up to conventions for science fiction fans and Pokemon.

    Oh, and lest you think that the alleged split between militia groups and white supremacists was seriously happening, these men came bearing "III%" patches. They're still connected at the hip, and until heavily-armed fascists stop showing up alongside white supremacists, I'm not giving any reports of conflicts between them any credence.
    posted by zombieflanders at 11:04 AM on August 17, 2017 [28 favorites]


    Behemoth: "gun accessories explicitly for killing Muslims

    Ok, I have to ask, what particular idiocy is this?"

    I assume they just wrap their gun barrels in bacon and hope it will repel Muslims.


    The Indian Rebellion of 1857 aka "The Sepoy Mutiny"
    The sepoys, a generic term used for native Indian soldiers of the Bengal Army . . . [already had] grievances against the British East Indian Company . . .

    The spark that led to a mutiny was the issue of new gunpowder cartridges for the Enfield rifle in February, 1857.

    A rumour was spread that the cartridges [had been greased with] cow and pig fat. Loading the Enfield required tearing open the greased cartridge with one's teeth. This would have insulted both Hindu and Muslim religious practices; cows were considered holy by Hindus while pigs were considered unclean by Muslims.

    Underlying grievances over British taxation and recent land annexations by the BEIC were ignited by the sepoy mutineers and within weeks dozens of units of the Indian army joined peasant armies in widespread rebellion. . . .
    Wait for it:
    After the rebellion, there was rumour in Britain that Russia was responsible.
    posted by Herodios at 11:15 AM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    GOP Lawmakers Are Apparently In Hiding
    -- Taegan Goddard, Political Wire

    The Washington Post reports that Republicans want nothing to do with defending President Trump’s remarks on the white supremacist violence in Charlottesville.
    “We invited every single Republican senator on this program tonight — all 52. . . .We asked roughly a dozen House Republicans, including a bunch of committee chairs, and we asked roughly a half dozen former Republican elected officials, and none of them agreed to discuss this issue with us today.”
    -- Chuck Todd, MTP Daily
    That’s about 70 rejections altogether, and other news anchors had the same experience on Wednesday — even on Fox News [sic].
    Our booking team — and they’re good — reached out to Republicans of all stripes across the country today. . . Let’s be honest: Republicans often don’t really mind coming on Fox News Channel [sic]. We couldn’t get anyone to come and defend him here. Because we thought, in balance, someone should do that. We worked very hard at it throughout the day, and we were unsuccessful.
    -- Shepard Smith, Fox channel
    posted by Herodios at 11:23 AM on August 17, 2017 [25 favorites]


    Paul Lepage deserves no copying of his text, even, but if we're really going to handwring about "learning history", we can start with learning the names of even a fraction of the thousands of people lynched in America. Even a fraction of the monuments currently put up by people who heartily endorsed the structures that allowed lynching to happen as a fucking entertainment venue for white children. Read the Wiki if you need somewhere to start. 20th century America gleefully sold postcards of lynching victims. If you don't know the history, because it certainly wasn't taught to most Americans, now is the time to learn.
    posted by nakedmolerats at 11:24 AM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    I always thought random occurrences of "88" were related to 8 being considered lucky in Chinese culture - like the numerical version of those waving cat statues.
    posted by yarrow at 11:37 AM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Michael Chabon and Ayelet Waldman penned an open letter to Jewish supporters of Trump, and it is very, very good:
    The President has no filter, no self-control, you have told yourself. If he were an anti-Semite — a Nazi sympathizer, a friend of the Jew-hating Klan — we would know about it, by now. By now, he would surely have told us.

    Yesterday, in a long and ragged off-the-cuff address to the press corps, President Trump told us. During a moment that white supremacist godfather Steve Bannon has apparently described as a “defining” one for this Administration, the President expressed admiration and sympathy for a group of white supremacist demonstrators who marched through the streets of Charlottesville, flaunting Swastikas and openly chanting, along with vile racist slogans, “Jews will not replace us!” Among those demonstrators, according to Trump, were “a lot” of “innocent” and “very fine people.”

    So, now you know. First he went after immigrants, the poor, Muslims, trans people and people of color, and you did nothing. You contributed to his campaign, you voted for him. You accepted positions on his staff and his councils. You entered into negotiations, cut deals, made contracts with him and his government.

    Now he’s coming after you. The question is: what are you going to do about it? If you don’t feel, or can’t show, any concern, pain or understanding for the persecution and demonization of others, at least show a little self-interest. At least show a little sichel. At the very least, show a little self-respect.
    And he calls out Jared and Ivanka specifically:
    To Jared Kushner: You have one minute to do whatever it takes to keep the history of your people from looking back on you as among its greatest traitors, and greatest fools; that minute is nearly past. To Ivanka Trump: Allow us to teach you an ancient and venerable phrase, long employed by Jewish parents and children to one another at such moments of family crisis: I’ll sit shiva for you.
    posted by duffell at 11:40 AM on August 17, 2017 [74 favorites]


    That shiva line, tho.
    posted by OmieWise at 11:53 AM on August 17, 2017 [13 favorites]



    I used to live in DC, which has a statue of a white dude on a horse at like every intersection.

    They're background noise. Literally no one gives a shit about them. Fourth Plinth the lot of them.

    I'm partial to the statue of Joan of Arc in Malcolm X Park.


    And the statue of Mary McLeod Bethune in Lincoln Park.
    posted by jgirl at 12:01 PM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


    To clarify: Shiva is a mourning ritual. To tell someone "I'll sit shiva for you" is to say "You are dead to me." This is a big deal.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 12:04 PM on August 17, 2017 [31 favorites]


    Just to expand a bit for people who may not understand: at the end of the letter Waldman and Chabon say "I'll sit shiva for you" to Ivanka Trump. This is an incredibly tender and generous thing to say. Sitting shiva is part of the mourning rites. The sentence could be expanded to: "You are part of my Jewish family (especially poignant here because Ivanka is a convert). You are facing a choice which may separate you from your birth family. We can't make that easier, but we can promise to fulfill the role of your family when it matters, when you need us." As a response to the hate from Trump, the completely reasonable impulse to be furious at Ivanka, especially for the way that her judaism has been used to shelter Trump from charges of anti-Semitism, not to mention the very explicit call to a Jewish history that Ivanka now claims as part of her own, it's just a very generous and loving line. It's truly meeting hate with love.
    posted by OmieWise at 12:04 PM on August 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


    There is also the aspect Faint of Butt raised. Which is a bit more savage. I've seen it both ways.
    posted by OmieWise at 12:05 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Thanks, OmieWise. My interpretation is that the writer wanted to teach Ivanka that phrase so that she can say it to her father.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 12:07 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Rereading how it's used there, I think you're right. Perhaps I was too generous. And just when I was convincing myself that my cynical piece of shit of a heart could actually feel again. Thanks, FOB. Thanks a lot.
    posted by OmieWise at 12:09 PM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Hey, it's why I'm here.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 12:11 PM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Uh-oh Cantwell, you got yourself a felony. I'm guessing he got caught on video pepper-spraying someone (as he suggested earlier), and presumably not in self defense.

    Steve Annear and Michael Levenson, Boston Globe: Warrants issued for N.H. white nationalist

    Officials from the Virginia Commonwealth Attorney’s Office said Thursday that Cantwell is wanted for illegal use of gases, and injury by caustic agent or explosive. Both are felony charges, officials said.

    posted by Rust Moranis at 12:12 PM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    I hope there's multiple news crews that are present for the moment of his arrest that capture the tears and (hopefully) pants-pissing that accompanies it in glorious 1080p HD.
    posted by zombieflanders at 12:21 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Oh shit. Illegal Use Of Gases is a Class 3 felony in Virginia: 5-20 years.

    :)
    posted by Rust Moranis at 12:27 PM on August 17, 2017 [16 favorites]



    Steve Annear and Michael Levenson, Boston Globe: Warrants issued for N.H. white nationalist

    The comments section to this gives us the term "Whine Kampf". Doesn't justify the existence of comments sections, but gave me a good long chuckle.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 12:39 PM on August 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


    Wow, in Durham, hundreds of people line up to turn themselves in to authorities for the "crime" of pulling down Confederate statue.

    I'm Spartacus!

    That photo is amazing.
    posted by Justinian at 12:42 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    If you get a chance to see the video, do. The crowd is chanting "Thank You. We Love You."
    posted by jessamyn at 12:45 PM on August 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Paul Lepage deserves no copying of his text, even, but if we're really going to handwring about "learning history", we can start with learning the names of even a fraction of the thousands of people lynched in America.

    Not only that, but if erecting and preserving monuments to those who killed shitloads of people for slavery were just a matter of respect for history, they could show that they're serious about it by proposing monuments for Americans who led and participated in slave uprisings and killed shitloads of people for freedom. But they won't, nor have their many predecessors defending "culture and history", because it's not about either of those things; it's about racism.
    posted by XMLicious at 12:46 PM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    The comments section to this gives us the term "Whine Kampf". Doesn't justify the existence of comments sections, but gave me a good long chuckle.

    I'm still happy with whichever anonymous commenter first called the marchers Vanilla ISIS.
    posted by Mchelly at 12:49 PM on August 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Our booking team — and they’re good — reached out to Republicans of all stripes across the country today. . . Let’s be honest: Republicans often don’t really mind coming on Fox News Channel [sic]. We couldn’t get anyone to come and defend him here. Because we thought, in balance, someone should do that. We worked very hard at it throughout the day, and we were unsuccessful.
    -- Shepard Smith, Fox channel
    Trumpty Drumpfty sat on his Wall
    Trumpty Drumpfty had a great fall
    Now all the contortions of all the Fox friends
    Can't put Trumpty together again
    posted by jamjam at 1:00 PM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    This history of African American resistance is fucking amazing and I love community bail funds and hadn't ever thought about the history of bail vis-a-vis the civil rights movement.

    Race and Place is an archive about the racial segregation laws, or the 'Jim Crow' laws from the late 1880s until the mid-twentieth century. The focus of the collection is the town of Charlottesville in Virginia
    When civil rights demonstrations started in Danville in May 1963, Mr. Peters helped line up African-American property owners who would be willing to post bonds for the release of the more than 300 protesters who were arrested and jailed that summer. Eventually, African-American residents posted up to $300,000 in property bonds to secure the freedom of their fellow citizens.
    Oral history excerpt from interview with James Peters:
    That afternoon, while I was in his office, I called families around town that I had knowledge of and worked with. We raised a little over $150,000 of interest as far as bail bonds could possibly be, because we knew that they were coming up. Eventually we ended up with people putting their property forward, almost a half-million dollars worth. All put their money for bail bond. … This was back in … early May. In fact the first two times that the demonstrations took place, the newspapers didn’t even make any note of it. There was nothing in the newspaper about it, so folks that were uptown didn’t know anything about this happening downtown. …

    I was almost the [bonding] committee for a long period of time [Laughs] until I got knots in my stomach just from this anxiety of what this was all about. At that time we had a clerk of the court who was, I’m going to have to say, liberal by those standards. He and a couple of his co-workers would stay there in the evening to let us bail out folks. One night we stayed down there until about 2 o’clock, just bailing—. Then we would go home at 1 or 2 o’clock, or 12 o’clock, whatever. My telephone would start ringing for somebody who would want to get their child out or their mama out or somebody else out and then that would go on for a period of time.
    [source]
    Via the Charlottesville Syllabus
    posted by spamandkimchi at 1:05 PM on August 17, 2017 [22 favorites]


    Ok, yeah, I'm completely wrong above in my exegesis on "I'll sit shiva for you" above. Checked in with my wife, the only one of us who is actually, you know, Jewish. "Oh, no, sweetie, [laughter], that's just what we said at camp. The whole phrase is "I'll sit shiva for you, because you're dead to me." We just thought there was a better way to use it. [More laughter]"

    I knew nothing good would come of abandoning my punk principles and marrying a hippie! Let alone one who grew up in a Labor-Zionist youth group. Other than the love, the family, the beautiful kids, the chance to spend my life with a great woman...I can't think of a damed good thing that's come out of it. And now, the final straw, being wrong on the internet.

    Seriously, FOB was right. Sorry.
    posted by OmieWise at 1:07 PM on August 17, 2017 [41 favorites]


    > Obviously if BLM itself prefers not to be described as militant, I certainly won't call them that, but the stuff they do is certainly more radical than the vast majority of political stuff that happens most of the time, and that's part of why they're one of the best activist tendencies I've encountered, pretty much ever.

    @iamLoafman "Big shout out to this guy who tried to smear BLM by posting the absolute raddest fucking image I've ever seen in my life" [image+thread]

    I'm willing to bet good cake that BLM has pretty much the lowest "actual legitimate grievances" to militancy ratio of any protest group in history. Especially in comparison to the Agalmatophiliac Lives Matter movement.
    posted by Buntix at 1:46 PM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Agalmatophiliac

    TIL...
    posted by tivalasvegas at 1:51 PM on August 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Well... amazing what living in a Clinton district will do.

    @kylegriffin1
    Republican Rep. Darrell Issa calls for a hearing on the impact of white supremacist groups on civil rights in America. [LETTER]
    posted by chris24 at 2:03 PM on August 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Republican Rep. Darrell Issa calls for a hearing

    Suddenly-Nervous Leopard In Face-Eating Epidemic Inquiry Demand; Popcorn Futures Spill Onto Stovetop
    posted by tivalasvegas at 2:10 PM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Pork-laced Bullets Designed To Send Muslims Straight ‘To Hell’ [link is to HuffPo story from 2013]
    Company Sells Gun Oil Laced with Pig Fat to Deny Muslims Paradise -- SPLC, 2011 (allegedly brand of oil was used by some Seal Team Six members in the OBL raid, claim dubious and unverifiable)

    There's also an AR-15 out there, dubbed the 'Crusader', that comes with a Bible verse on its stock (probably a riff on the scopes that had verses encoded into their serial numbers when they were being shipped to Afghanistan by the supplier).

    (As to my comment above I had no intent to categorically absolve Stanton or Anthony of racism, just that I understood they have long been considered "better" to celebrate than Willard, who I know best as she grew up in my town. I have insufficient information to say which women's suffrage movement leaders are considered least problematic to quote today.
    As to 'suffragette' I was just trying to avoid repetitive language. Sorry.
    posted by dhartung at 2:17 PM on August 17, 2017


    This twitter thread, which takes off with reference to the one linked above by jessamyn about the Cantwell video and propaganda, is very good reading about the propaganda work these Nazis have been doing.
    posted by OmieWise at 2:27 PM on August 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


    All this killing for Christ has recent US military history.
    posted by adamvasco at 2:36 PM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    In washed-up TV talk show host news, Geraldo Rivera has apparently lost his g-d mind:
    #RobertELee is a lot like #ErwinRommel a glorious yet failed warrior, untarnished by the sins of his brothers
    posted by Atom Eyes at 3:17 PM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    hey, geraldo, i found robert e lee's honor

    it's IN THE VAULT!!
    posted by pyramid termite at 3:19 PM on August 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


    In washed-up TV talk show host news, Geraldo Rivera has apparently lost his g-d mind:
    #RobertELee is a lot like #ErwinRommel a glorious yet failed warrior, untarnished by the sins of his brothers


    i have the feeling living through the baby boomer dementia years is going to be an ugly experience
    posted by entropicamericana at 3:21 PM on August 17, 2017 [51 favorites]


    living through the baby boomer dementia years is going to be an ugly experience
    posted by tivalasvegas at 3:33 PM on August 17, 2017 [18 favorites]


    This pork/blood-bullets thing is silly. There is no Koranic teaching that if you ever come into contact with something haram you can never go to heaven -- without intention there is no sin. (And if you're, say, starving, you're allowed to eat haram things if the alternative is death.)
    posted by phliar at 3:34 PM on August 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


    #RobertELee is a lot like #ErwinRommel a glorious yet failed warrior, untarnished by the sins of his brothers

    Here's a suggestion. For every statue of Rommel in Germany we keep a statue of Lee. The others go.
    posted by scalefree at 3:34 PM on August 17, 2017 [21 favorites]


    what makes you think they are not already here?
    posted by mbo at 3:35 PM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    #RobertELee is a lot like #ErwinRommel a glorious yet failed warrior, untarnished by the sins of his brothers

    2017: hey look what I did to Poe's Law hee hee

    PBO: OH GOD NO TAKE IT AWAY
    posted by prize bull octorok at 3:37 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    so I woke up this morning to the news that Richard Spencer and the National Policy Institute were applying for space at Michigan State University, and the board of trustees was having an emergency vote on the issue today and alumni were rallying the troops to express outrage to the board before they voted.

    Y'all, I'll be honest: I haven't, in all of 2017, made a phone call to express my outrage about anything. (I know. I have colossal phone anxiety, and so I'd sit and read Metafilter and feel guilty for being a coward and and and.)

    But maybe it was because the timing was super urgent (I live in the Pacific Northwest, what if they have the meeting before I call?!), I sucked it up, carefully wrote myself a script in Notepad and called the board. (Well, the board's answering machine.)

    I am appalled to learn that MSU is considering allowing space to neo-Nazi Richard Spencer on campus.

    By doing so they are threatening the safety of people of color, women, LGBT people and Jewish people everywhere on campus by tacitly supporting the violence this man advocates for.

    If MSU allows Richard Spencer on campus, they are indicating to me that I am no longer welcome at Michigan State University, that I am no longer safe at Michigan State University.

    Michigan State University's core values of quality, inclusiveness and connectivity are directly opposed by Richard Spencer and everything he stands for. I urge the Board to stand by the university's core values and reject him.


    (And I got through the whole thing! My voice was shaking real hard by the end but I did it!)

    And I sat with my feelings all day waiting for an update (Mostly developing plans to ritually smash a stained-glass image of the MSU flag that hangs on my front porch and send the board the mess, should the vote go in Spencer's favor. It helped?)

    I just got the notification that MSU denied the application, specifically citing issues of student safety as the reason.

    So thank you, Metafilter, and all your stories of calling your legislators (particularly those of you who share my flavor of anxiety disorder). Thanks for giving me the courage to help make the world just a teeny bit less fucked up today.
    posted by The demon that lives in the air at 3:38 PM on August 17, 2017 [105 favorites]


    Geraldo forgot #NotAllNazis.
    posted by uncleozzy at 3:44 PM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Is "probably not as monstrously awful as Reinhard Heydrich" really where we're at today as a measuring stick?
    posted by Justinian at 3:48 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    The usual dance is "Those racists aren't really racist, not like those racist nazis burning shit and waving around the swastika and terrorizing people." We've now shifted the racist piece of shit overton window to "Sure there are some nazis who are burning shit and waving around the swastika and terrorizing people, but there are worse nazis too like Hitler himself, and who could forget mega-Hitler." Like sorry I don't see shades of grey where there are nazis. There's just fucking nazis. There's no spectrum, there's a binary. The binary is: are you a fucking nazi, y/n?
    posted by supercrayon at 3:54 PM on August 17, 2017 [45 favorites]


    Godzilla vs. MegaーHitler
    posted by DoctorFedora at 4:11 PM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    The Asshole March in L.A. has as far as I can tell been postponed by the Assholes. That was probably smart. I don't think they've thought their cunning plan all the way through.

    Is there a central location to keep track of where counter protests and such are being held? I'm not exactly plugged in to the activist community.
    posted by Justinian at 4:19 PM on August 17, 2017


    And now the wolves start circling...each other? Alt-Right Turns Against ‘Unite the Right’ Organizer Jason Kessler, Labels Him ‘Soros/Deep State Plant’

    'Scuse me, just running out for some popcorn. Back in a jiffy.
    posted by scalefree at 4:35 PM on August 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


    This was a great twitter thread where Matt Pearce simply asked, "What are your favorite public Statues?" I read the entire thread. So many statues of animals and people, especially writers, which are inspiring, whimsical, and glorious.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:35 PM on August 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


    This pork/blood-bullets thing is silly.

    To me it's even weirder than you suggest. The only way those things make any sense I see if the people who employ them believe the eschatology of Islam. Otherwise, why would a dead Muslim care?
    posted by OmieWise at 4:41 PM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    NBC News, Chelsea Bailey: Mother of Charlottesville Victim Heather Heyer Says She’s Received Death Threats, Ignored Trump Calls
    "Whether there was violence on both sides or not is irrelevant," Bro told MSNBC's Katy Tur. "The guy mowed my daughter down and, sorry, that’s not excusable."
    ...
    In the exclusive interview, Bro said that the White House has reached out to her several times since her daughter’s death, but that she hasn’t had a chance to speak to President Trump.

    “I saw that his office had called about three times,” she said. “It feels awful, but I just haven’t had time to talk to the president.”
    She says she's received death threats. What kind of asshole calls up a grieving mother and threatens to kill her too?
    posted by zachlipton at 4:54 PM on August 17, 2017 [29 favorites]


    Just reading through the tweets under a search for "statues" makes me want to pull my hair out. Nancy Pelosi called for the 8 Confederate Statues in the State Capitol to be removed and naturally she came under fire for that. (It's "hypocrisy" because she was speaker for years but never called for their removal before.) Then there are so many people who think the solution is to put them all in museums or in graveyards of Confederate dead. No one seems to mention how that will get paid for and if every duplicate statue has to be saved.

    Then there are suggestions that all of the Confederate Statues be replaced by Union Generals. Great more statues of men! On horses, probably. Also who is going to pay for that?

    Which makes me wonder if all the statue makers out there are sensing a massive, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity?

    Oh and by the way, thank you so very much, Angela Rye, for saying this
    “I don’t care if it’s a George Washington statue or a Thomas Jefferson statue, or a Robert E. Lee statue,” commentator Angela Rye said on CNN. “They all need to come down.”
    You have just supported the best argument the racists are using, which is: Taking down Robert E. Lee statues will lead to Democrats demanding that depictions of Washington and Jefferson are next.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:56 PM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Corey Robin:
    In November 1979 in Greensboro, North Carolina, a group of Klansmen and members of the American Nazi Party murdered five men and women—four of them members of the Communist Workers' Party—who were leading a rally against the Klan, the Nazis, and white supremacy. Five other people were wounded, including my former department chair's husband, who was left permanently paralyzed. The killed and wounded were long-time organizers of southern workers and African-Americans, continuing the black freedom struggle long after it had been declared dead. The murderers were acquitted by an all-white jury the following year.

    The President of the United States—a Democrat—didn't make a statement blaming both sides. As far as I know, he didn't make a statement at all. The incident passed without notice from the upper political establishment. On the ground, the incident fired the white supremacist base, giving it a sense that the backlash against the black freedom struggles had triumphed and would go on to greater things.

    Eight months later, the KKK endorsed Ronald Reagan for president, claiming "The Republican platform reads as if it were written by a Klansman."

    I take it as a sign of genuine moral progress that: a) not only did the murder in Charlottesville not pass without notice but it awakened national revulsion across the political spectrum; b) sentiments like "both sides do it" or "the left and the right aren't different"—which, let's be clear, used to be the absolute stock and trade of not only conservatives but also of liberals, particularly during the high noon and the end game of the Cold War—are now considered anathema; and c) far from profiting, sometimes quietly, sometimes loudly, from the enthusiasm of white supremacy, the Republican Party is in political jeopardy because of that association.

    While there is absolutely no doubt that white supremacists comprise a large and toxic part of the hardcore Republican base—in fact, it seems to be the entirety of that hardcore base—that base, as I've argued multiple times, is shrinking. Once upon a time, that base not only helped catapult conservative candidates into the White House, with actual popular majorities, sometimes quite ample majorities (unlike Trump), but it also helped the Republican Party achieve many of its far and most wide-ranging aims on a whole host of fronts: economic, cultural, diplomatic, military, and more; on race, gender, class, and sexuality.

    What strikes me about the current moment, however it scary it is—and like many of you, I'm very nervous about where this all goes—is that white supremacy is increasingly unable to deliver that broad front of goods to the conservative cause. Trump's absolute failures as a Republican president, his inability to deliver a wide range of goods to the party, is very much connected to his doubling down yesterday on his weekend comments about Charlottesville. The more he doubles down on white supremacy and Bannonism, the more the overall project of conservatism is weakened, the more the party is divided and untethered from the broad project it once pursued.
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:01 PM on August 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


    “I don’t care if it’s a George Washington statue or a Thomas Jefferson statue, or a Robert E. Lee statue,” commentator Angela Rye said on CNN. “They all need to come down.”

    You have just supported the best argument the racists are using, which is: Taking down Robert E. Lee statues will lead to Democrats demanding that depictions of Washington and Jefferson are next.


    Good for her. She's staking out a position. We can compromise somewhere in the middle. I think most decent Americans can settle for just removing the racist traitors' statues for now.
    posted by xigxag at 5:19 PM on August 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


    You have just supported the best argument the racists are using, which is: Taking down Robert E. Lee statues will lead to Democrats demanding that depictions of Washington and Jefferson are next.

    @BrandyLJensen: Conservative dipshit: if we remove confederate statues next we'll have to remo--
    Me: yes. however you end that sentence is likely dope.

    Seriously, I don't see how "if we acknowledge that this is racist, we'll also have to acknowledge that that is racist and maybe address it" is a bad thing.
    posted by Lexica at 5:27 PM on August 17, 2017 [27 favorites]


    Then there are suggestions that all of the Confederate Statues be replaced by Union Generals.

    beanie babies - lots and lots of beanie babies
    posted by pyramid termite at 5:30 PM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    . . . just running out for some popcorn. Back in a jiffy.

    I saw what you did there.
    posted by allthinky at 5:36 PM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Well Lexica we have been arguing that Washington and Lee are different. One was famous for founding our country and the other was famous for being a traitor. Now you just want to say, "Nope. They were both slave owners so they both need to go?" Sorry, I think we need to knowledge Washington and Jefferson were slave owners but I still want to celebrate the beginning of our nation and the men who fought for it and created it on paper.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:37 PM on August 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


    What kind of asshole calls up a grieving mother and threatens to kill her too?

    The kind of asshole who supports POTUS attacks on Gold Star families, former POWs, winners of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the mayor of London after a terrorist attack, etc. At this point anyone who supports Trump is an extremist.
    posted by Lyme Drop at 5:41 PM on August 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


    For what it's worth, it's not settled that Thomas Jefferson had Sally Hemings' children. The DNA test merely found it to be a male descendant of the Jefferson lineage and Randolph Jefferson, Thomas's brother, was also a suspect. (The children were named with the Randolph family names).

    That said, most historians believe it was Thomas. He was close to Sally Hemings' for many years and more, significantly kept the children as slaves. (they were 7/8 European descent). He freed all but one.

    Not much to be proud of for Jefferson, just getting history straight.
    posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:41 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I saw what you did there.

    I'll admit there may be a kernel of truth to your observation.
    posted by scalefree at 5:42 PM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    What kind of asshole calls up a grieving mother and threatens to kill her too?

    Literal Nazis?
    posted by chris24 at 5:43 PM on August 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Oh and by the way, thank you so very much, Angela Rye, for saying this

    “I don’t care if it’s a George Washington statue or a Thomas Jefferson statue, or a Robert E. Lee statue,” commentator Angela Rye said on CNN. “They all need to come down.”

    You have just supported the best argument the racists are using, which is: Taking down Robert E. Lee statues will lead to Democrats demanding that depictions of Washington and Jefferson are next.


    I get that many don't think this is wise tactic at this particular moment in the culture wars and I've read and largely agree with many articles about the differences between Founder slavers and Confederate slavers but it takes a certain amount of chutzpah for white people to chastise an African-American for not appreciating and not wanting to see statues of white men who owned black people.

    I don't think that most statues of Washington and Jefferson are coming down any time soon, but if she doesn't care about the difference and thinks that they all need to come down, that is not an outrageous opinion for her to have.

    I can see a difference between statues of people who were famous for something and also owned slaves and people who were famous for being slavers, but I don't think that Angela Rye is required to share that opinion. Let her work to move the Overton Window. I would rather be having an argument about which statues of slave owners to remove from public spaces than about whether or not to remove any at all and only the bad apples.

    The National Museum of African American History and Culture has a statue of Jefferson presented as "The Paradox of Liberty" that includes a wall of bricks with names of people enslaved by Jefferson.

    The mood in the country isn't right to start removing memorials to Washington and Jefferson en masse but I would love to see a mass movement to place as many statues of Oney Judge and Sally Hemings as possible next to statues of those guys.
    posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:44 PM on August 17, 2017 [35 favorites]


    Secret Life of Gravy: Washington was one of the founders of the nation. Lee was a military leader of an unsuccessful treasonous rebellion. If you think they're comparable you're completely misunderstanding what people are criticizing.

    I'd be happy to see statues of Washington and Jefferson come down. Although, as has been pointed out, there aren't many. Funny how they're underrepresented and Lee et al. are overrepresented…
    posted by Lexica at 5:45 PM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Decent effort from the former Governator. (sorry, FB video link)
    posted by Behemoth at 5:45 PM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Since the confederate statues promote a fictional history I suggest we replace the statues with that town or state's most famous fictional characters. (saw joke on Twiter, can't claim it as original)
    posted by COD at 5:46 PM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    For what it's worth, it's not settled that Thomas Jefferson had Sally Hemings' children.

    Well, Monticello.org and the Thomas Jefferson Foundation disagree with you:
    "TJF and most historians believe that, years after his wife’s death, Thomas Jefferson was the father of the six children of Sally Hemings mentioned in Jefferson's records, including Beverly, Harriet, Madison, and Eston Hemings."

    But maybe you know more about him than the folks who run his foundation and his homestead museum.
    posted by hydropsyche at 5:47 PM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Thomas was the only Jefferson male who was consistently present at Monticello nine months before each of Hemings' children's births. Even his contemporaries knew about it -- it was one of the things used in attacks against him in campaigns. There really isn't much doubt.
    posted by tavella at 5:51 PM on August 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


    "The results of the study established that an individual carrying the male Jefferson Y chromosome fathered Eston Hemings (born 1808), the last known child born to Sally Hemings. There were approximately 25 adult male Jeffersons who carried this chromosome living in Virginia at that time, and a few of them are known to have visited Monticello. The study's authors, however, said "the simplest and most probable" conclusion was that Thomas Jefferson had fathered Eston Hemings."
    posted by jenfullmoon at 5:54 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    What kind of asshole calls up a grieving mother and threatens to kill her too?

    All of them in our world. I am not even a tiny bit surprised any more. If these people hear of a woman speaking up, bitch gotta die.
    posted by jenfullmoon at 5:55 PM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Then there are suggestions that all of the Confederate Statues be replaced by Union Generals. Great more statues of men! On horses, probably. Also who is going to pay for that?

    But maybe a few more William Tecumseh Shermans in the place of Lee statues though...
    posted by jason_steakums at 5:56 PM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


    But maybe you know more about him than the folks who run his foundation and his homestead museum.

    They literally said in that comment that most historians believe it was Jefferson. The only point was that there is no solid scientific proof that it was him and not a relative. Which is true.
    posted by middleclasstool at 5:57 PM on August 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


    (not really, though, while Sherman statues would be a strong statement against Lost Cause assholes, Sherman was a piece of shit towards natives)
    posted by jason_steakums at 5:59 PM on August 17, 2017


    I just don't see any point in defending Jefferson. He pretty clearly raped his slave. Even people who really like him think so.
    posted by hydropsyche at 6:01 PM on August 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Step 1: Demand all statues of slave owners come down.
    Step 2: Watch everyone freak out.
    Step: Compromise and settle for all the statues of Confederate soldiers be taken down.
    Step 4: Watch only the racists continue to freak out.
    Step 5: All the Confederate statues come down pretty quickly.


    I don't want to get into a major beef here but that is not how that would play out. You start demanding that Jefferson and Washington monuments come down and all we would hear about for weeks would be those crazy liberals have lost their minds. People who don't care two shits about Robert E. Lee would go ballistic over the idea of tearing down Washington monuments. The whole country would spend far too much energy arguing about statues.

    Whereas is if we aim for the statues honoring the CSA, there will only be racists and conservatives arguing against. And they will (and are) lose that battle in public opinion.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:05 PM on August 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


    You start demanding that Jefferson and Washington monuments come down and all we would hear about for weeks would be those crazy liberals have lost their minds.

    They were already saying it before Rye said anything. "Giving the other side ammunition" isn't a thing anymore. They will just make shit up if they aren't given it.
    posted by Etrigan at 6:08 PM on August 17, 2017 [30 favorites]


    "Giving the other side ammunition" isn't a thing anymore. They will just make shit up if they aren't given it.

    I think I finally know what I want my tattoo to say.
    posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:12 PM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I wrote an essay recently about my experience doing jury duty. In that essay I described my juror number as "lucky 88", because 88 is considered lucky by some Chinese people. Only much later did I realize that it could be interpreted more sinisterly. I left it unchanged because I figured it was sufficiently obscure, but it's an interesting tiny example of how everyday life can be stained by white supremacist tropes.
    posted by nnethercote at 6:28 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    BLM could be called "Please Don't Kill Black People" and plenty of people would still object to it.
    posted by nnethercote at 6:29 PM on August 17, 2017 [47 favorites]


    You start demanding that Jefferson and Washington monuments come down and all we would hear about for weeks would be those crazy liberals have lost their minds.

    They're already saying that now. See: "alt-left"

    No, no more mealy-mouthed "maybe we should be super cautious about what we propose" nonsense. The right has gone off the deep end. We may as well ask for what we actually want, for once in our lives.
    posted by XtinaS at 6:33 PM on August 17, 2017 [23 favorites]


    We may as well ask for what we actually want, for once in our lives.

    Or even more than we actually want.
    posted by xigxag at 6:36 PM on August 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


    Or even more than we actually want.

    Sure! Let's go for broke! What're we gonna do, radicalize the Nazis?

    Oddly, I'm not being sarcastic.
    posted by XtinaS at 6:39 PM on August 17, 2017 [22 favorites]


    BLM could be called "Please Don't Kill Black People" and plenty of people would still object to it.

    It basically is called that, except without the "please". And, yup, all the "All Lives Matter" bullshit applied to it works equally well if it were rephrased.
    posted by jackbishop at 6:56 PM on August 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Well Lexica we have been arguing that Washington and Lee are different. One was famous for founding our country and the other was famous for being a traitor. Now you just want to say, "Nope. They were both slave owners so they both need to go?" Sorry, I think we need to knowledge Washington and Jefferson were slave owners but I still want to celebrate the beginning of our nation and the men who fought for it and created it on paper.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:37 AM on August 18 [+] [!]


    I want to celebrate our identity as a nation that was founded on slavery, and then changed its mind, rejected it, tore down the slavemasters, and beat back every attempt to reinstate something similar. I want monuments that honor the toll of our past mistakes and our ability to improve. We've come a long way toward correcting the hypocrisy of our slave-driving, patriarchal, mass-murdering, land-stealing founders, and when I'm proud of the US, it's for the times we, the people who followed them, live up to the promises they didn't actually mean to keep.

    I'm fine with 'em coming down. Plenty of heroes have been made atoning for their mistakes, and I'd rather honor those people. If the Founding Fathers must be honored, let the monuments include the asterisk. At present, they don't. #notmyheritage

    "Giving the other side ammunition" isn't a thing anymore. They will just make shit up if they aren't given it.
    posted by Etrigan at 10:08 AM on August 18 [1 favorite +] [!]


    That's right. They are lying racist sociopath Nazi snakes who distort reality into a weapon, or improvise other weapons, but the only consistent thing about them is that they want to hurt you. I don't give a crap about the statues, I give a crap about destroying the potency of hate. If that means uncritical reverence of Washington and Jefferson are on the chopping block, FINE. We're the ones who have to live with the legacy, and if I ever fuck up as badly as they did (Jefferson probably raped a slave y'all), may my future victims deface monuments to me if it earns them redress.

    Sure! Let's go for broke! What're we gonna do, radicalize the Nazis?

    Oddly, I'm not being sarcastic.
    posted by XtinaS at 10:39 AM on August 18 [1 favorite +] [!]


    That part happened when they became Nazis.
    posted by saysthis at 6:59 PM on August 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


    My favourite public statue is Paddington Bear, in Paddington Station.

    Of course, he is an illegal immigrant, and poses a serious threat to the marmalade supplies of the UK.
    posted by jb at 7:27 PM on August 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


    "Giving the other side ammunition" isn't a thing anymore. They will just make shit up if they aren't given it.
    Speaking of which, the new thing I've seen going around on facebook is some screed about how Republicans aren't Nazis Because Hitler was a Liberal Socialist. Given the fact that all the folks with the crooked crosses throwing straight arms are pulling for president pissboy, I'm not about to argue with anyone shitty enough to be spreading this sort of thing, but is there some short, easily digestible refutation of this sort BS that I can pass around for the benefit of anyone who is? Or anything long-form for those who want to dig deeper?
    posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 7:31 PM on August 17, 2017


    They really do have a hard time understanding that words can have more than one meaning and that meanings can shift over time.
    posted by Miko at 7:33 PM on August 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


    They literally said in that comment that most historians believe it was Jefferson. The only point was that there is no solid scientific proof that it was him and not a relative. Which is true.

    Yeh but that statement more or less holds true for almost every historical figure who is purported to descend from any other historical figure. And for many or most ordinary people as well. We have common knowledge, birth records and circumstantial evidence, not "scientific proof." Jefferson's familial DNA is a lot more scientific evidence than we have for the vast majority of people of famous lineage. Frankly it's a bit sketchy to draw a bright line here in insisting that his slaves who were notoriously known during his own lifetime of being his offspring, cannot be 100% airtight confirmed to be his.
    posted by xigxag at 7:34 PM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    The thought of caring about whether a statue of George Washington was removed is quite literally bonkers. Clearly, let's face down the the confederacy and attendant racist iconography first, but...I mean, seriously, is there anyone over six years old and under ninety who really cares whether a George Washington statue is anywhere? Is there anyone who doesn't realize 'fathers of our country' might sound a little bit like a history written on a Hallmark card?

    I mean, fine, have history, but jeez try harder for nuance. They owned slaves. They might have relied on wives for counsel, but those women couldn't vote. They might have been brave, but if they were brave, let's have them as brave and flawed. Thin heroes are for comic books.

    We don't get untarnished heros...that just isn't how the world works. You're always a minute and a half a way from finding out they beat their wives or owned an Indonesian sweatshop.

    I will settle, at this point, for a person being 'of their times' and that we put a modern framework around 'those times'. Don't ask us to walk around past their Christmas Tree Store statues of them upon their horses and their long flowing locks. The best we can do at this point is try to see some good qualities and demand to see them fully. That's what it means to lock eyes with reality.
    posted by A Terrible Llama at 7:46 PM on August 17, 2017 [30 favorites]


    Is there anyone who doesn't realize 'fathers of our country' might sound a little bit like a history written on a Hallmark card?

    There are people out there who, as near as I can tell, sincerely believe that the founding of the United States was literally mandated by God himself.
    posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 7:55 PM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    BLM could be called "Please Don't Kill Black People" and plenty of people would still object to it.

    I was about to agree by pointing out that the usual suspects would turn this into "Please Don't Kill All People," but then reflected on the fact that that is also a disturbingly relevant statement in light of the North Korea affair last week. And in that it is relevant, the usual suspect would object to that phrase because many of them believe Trump would "win" a global thermonuclear war.

    Basically, the usual suspect are awful.
    posted by Joey Michaels at 7:57 PM on August 17, 2017


    the new thing I've seen going around on facebook is some screed about how Republicans aren't Nazis Because Hitler was a Liberal Socialist.

    Oh, this isn't new. This one has been around for as long as people who've never read a book on the topic google "Nazi" to find that in English the full name for the ideology translates to "National Socialism." The standard ripost is "just because North Korea has the word 'democratic' in its full official name doesn't mean that it's a Democracy." That's actually a super simplistic and not even very accurate analogy but it works at the same low level of comprehension as the original claim.

    And yeah, like you say, when there's a bunch of white dudes standing around with Nazi flags and MAGA hats the claim that the liberals are the REAL Nazis just becomes that much more nonsensical and is probably just a sign that you should disengage because argument is a lost cause.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 8:00 PM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    There are people out there who, as near as I can tell, sincerely believe that the founding of the United States was literally mandated by God himself.


    You are absolutely right, and I have seen that belief conveyed by a Mickey Mouse figurine, holding a flag, on the fourth of July in a suburban garden. No gun, but that seems a missed opportunity, design-wise.
    posted by A Terrible Llama at 8:00 PM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    There are people out there who, as near as I can tell, sincerely believe that the founding of the United States was literally mandated by God himself.

    One of them is first in line to the presidency.
    posted by Etrigan at 8:19 PM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    the new thing I've seen going around on facebook is some screed about how Republicans aren't Nazis Because Hitler was a Liberal Socialist. (...) is there some short, easily digestible refutation of this

    The Night of the Long Knives
    , aka the "Röhm purge". There were in fact leftish/somewhat socialist elements in the Nazi party; the "Night of the long knives" was all about eliminating those elements and consolidating Hitler's control of the Party. Among the victims: Gregor Strasser, who called for an explicitly anti-capitalist position, and Ernst Röhm who called for a "second revolution" to redistribute wealth.
    posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:24 PM on August 17, 2017 [21 favorites]


    Tony Schwartz, author of The Art of the Deal, the bestselling business memoir purportedly written by Trump, and man who has spent the last 30 years regretting it (as he puts it, "I put lipstick on a pig"), is predicting that Trump will resign by the end of the year in return for immunity from all charges related to the Russia investigation.

    This does sound like a plausible outcome to me, but I'm hoping Trump won't get immunity or a pardon. I'd rather have him stay in office a little longer (because hello, the alternative is Mike Pence), and have to face some real consequences for what he's done: impeachment, removal from office, and a jail cell for the rest of his life. That said... I must admit Schwartz's prediction is the far more likely scenario. Leverage is the way to get Cheeto to resign. He is said to be terrified of going to prison, and Robert Mueller will almost certainly come up with ample evidence to send him there.
    posted by orange swan at 8:30 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    >the new thing I've seen going around on facebook is some screed about how Republicans aren't Nazis Because Hitler was a Liberal Socialist. (...) is there some short, easily digestible refutation of this

    The Night of the Long Knives, aka the "Röhm purge". There were in fact leftish/somewhat socialist elements in the Nazi party; the "Night of the long knives" was all about eliminating those elements and consolidating Hitler's control of the Party. Among the victims: Gregor Strasser, who called for an explicitly anti-capitalist position, and Ernst Röhm who called for a "second revolution" to redistribute wealth.


    Yes, but the real response is probably something along the lines of "Have you considered that the Nazis might have been... lying about being socialists?"
    posted by tivalasvegas at 8:35 PM on August 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


    but is there some short, easily digestible refutation of this sort BS that I can pass around for the benefit of anyone who is?

    The Night of the Long Knives

    The socialist part of the nazi party was purged before that. The Strassers were either kicked out or removed from power years before the purge. The Night just finished the job.
    posted by zabuni at 8:38 PM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    I've also found that appending askhistorians or badhistory will bring up rather good results for debunking various revisionist racist history. The two subreddits thrive on refuting this stuff.
    posted by zabuni at 8:48 PM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Another one from National Review on why it's right to get rid of Confederate monuments from a conservative point of view: 'Why was the Confederacy founded? And why was the United States?'
    Race slavery was essential to the purpose and self-understanding of the Confederacy, which was founded expressly to preserve the peculiar institution. It was not essential to the purpose and self-understanding of the United States, and the United States became truer to its founding principles when slavery was abolished.... That doesn’t mean we should shrug off the moral enormity of certain Founders’ slave ownership. But it does mean that we can reject those Founders qua slaveholders even as we honor them for dedicating our nation to ideas that would not tolerate the enormity.
    That last bit brings to mind MLK Jr.'s "we have come to cash this cheque."
    posted by clawsoon at 9:05 PM on August 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


    the new thing I've seen going around on facebook is some screed about how Republicans aren't Nazis Because Hitler was a Liberal Socialist. (...) is there some short, easily digestible refutation of this

    The first people the Nazis rounded up and sent to camps were the communists and socialists.
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:36 PM on August 17, 2017 [20 favorites]


    I've heard this too, from the ignorant; and it wasn't recently. The statement made was "Hitler was a socialist" and my rebuttal was "Hitler was a National Socialist, not the same" and maybe bringing up the Night of the Long Knives but I get a more satisfying reaction now in this situation by pointing out instead that Hitler was a Catholic.
    posted by Rash at 9:45 PM on August 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


    tivalasvegas: "Yes, but the real response is probably something along the lines of "Have you considered that the Nazis might have been... lying about being socialists?""

    It's like they've never heard of Sunshine Units.
    posted by Mitheral at 9:54 PM on August 17, 2017


    Thanks guys!! Now I have some reading to do...

    Rash, though... man, I thought everybody knew Catholics aren't real Christians. I mean, haven't you even read The Death Cookie?? (WARNING: CHICK TRACT)
    posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 9:58 PM on August 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I get a more satisfying reaction now in this situation by pointing out instead that Hitler was a Catholic.

    Just don't mention that he was vegetarian. Please.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:29 PM on August 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


    The socialism in "Nazi" is indebted to Oswald Spengler, who contrasted Marxism with a Prussian form of socialism. Prussian socialism, like Marxism, has a strong collectivist component and eschatological outlook, but otherwise doesn't look much like Marxist socialism at all. Spengler argued that this difference comes from Marxism being a reaction to a distinctly English form of capitalism, where it's all about shareholder value, whereas Prussian capitalism (what we would now call the Rhineland model I guess) is organized around duty to society/Gesellschaft.
    posted by dmh at 10:34 PM on August 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


    From Ask Historians:

    Why did the Nazi's call themselves "Socialist" when they were clearly not?

    This gives a nice summary which can be edited and pasted into Facebook as needed. Not that it will do any good as all responses will be simply: "But they had socialist in their name?!? Therefore liberals are bad."

    Also from Reddit: The circles of alt-right radicalization online and on reddit.

    I thought this was an excellent summary of how parts of Reddit and other majority male online communities were radicalized.
    posted by honestcoyote at 10:45 PM on August 17, 2017 [22 favorites]


    The most racist statue in America sits in Pittsburgh, PA. I have to say, it does perfectly capture the essence of white American culture.
    posted by dirigibleman at 11:07 PM on August 17, 2017 [29 favorites]


    Who wants to volunteer as tribute to vomit all over that fucking thing?
    posted by supercrayon at 11:13 PM on August 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Counter-offer: All the racist monuments may remain where they are if in exchange they're entirely painted with VantaBlack.

    Congratulations, your Confederate memorial is now a flat black gaping portal unto the formless void!
    posted by nicebookrack at 12:01 AM on August 18, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Republicans aren't Nazis Because Hitler was a Liberal Socialist...is there some short, easily digestible refutation of this sort BS.

    It doesn't matter what mechanics of government Hitler and his party favoured. What made them what we call Nazis was the belief that superior people have a right to dominate other people and to purge society of supposed inferior elements.

    They accumulated enough power to put that belief into practice and murdered millions, and stopping them resulted in many millions more lives lost.

    Nazi doesn't mean German, or socialist or facist. Nazi means someone who believes their race is superior and that that gives them the right to kill and subjugate people from other races without it being murder. That idea spreads like an infection. It destroys empathy; it destroys social norms; it destroys cultural bonds. It can't be allowed.

    The people who fought and survived trusted and hoped that future generations would understand that horrible truth and honour their sacrifice and the sacrifice of their fallen comrades and keep faith for as long as memory lasted. "Never again."

    If someone says they're a Nazi, they are a Nazi.
    If someone marches with Nazis, they are a Nazi.

    Whatever your political beliefs, however fervently you believe in ideas like freedom of speech and due process, you have to draw the line at Nazis. Or else you're pissing on the graves of millions on millions of human beings who died so that you could live, not three generations hence.

    Never again.

    Have we already forgotten? NEVER AGAIN!
    posted by lastobelus at 12:08 AM on August 18, 2017 [29 favorites]




    The most racist statue in America sits in Pittsburgh, PA.

    And OMFG,I did not know about Damon Young before, but now I am devouring all of his essays.
    posted by palmcorder_yajna at 1:17 AM on August 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Young's President Obama’s “Folks Wanna Pop Off” Is The Blackest Thing That Ever Happened This Week (from 2015) contains one of my favorite paragraphs of political writing:
    We’ve kinda suspected it before, but President Obama genuinely gives no fucks at this point. He is fuck devoid. Fuck deficient. Fuck deprived. Fuck destitute. His cupboard of fucks is barren; his tank of fucks has been depleted. You know how, on cloudy nights, you might look up into the vast and endless sky and not find any stars? The same thing would happen if you looked at Obama and searched for fucks. And this, this total absence of fucks, is where pop off came from.
    posted by zachlipton at 1:26 AM on August 18, 2017 [11 favorites]


    The most racist statue in America sits in Pittsburgh, PA.

    And OMFG,I did not know about Damon Young before, but now I am devouring all of his essays.
    posted by palmcorder_yajna at 5:17 PM on August 18 [+] [!]


    "I’ve tried very, very, very hard over these past few years, but I just can’t muster much anger toward Ben Carson for the ridiculous and dangerous things he says. Perhaps because he carries himself like a man who goes to Home Depot for the ambience and spends his days saying things like, “I have a wide foot, so I usually go up an extra shoe size to accommodate my disproportionately wide feet” and “Candy, did you take the mulch out of the trunk? Because I can’t find the mulch. I never know where the mulch is.” And when he speaks, all I can think about is pot roast, peas and adult pajamas."

    Yes.
    posted by saysthis at 1:34 AM on August 18, 2017 [15 favorites]


    The standard ripost is "just because North Korea has the word 'democratic' in its full official name doesn't mean that it's a Democracy."

    My go to is "Omigod, Bush wiped out the Republican Guard in Iraq. How could he have killed people on his own side?"

    Hearing it with their own affiliation seems to help a bit, since I've actually had a person say "Well North Korea and the Democrats are similar."
    posted by chris24 at 3:53 AM on August 18, 2017 [19 favorites]


    I've actually had a person say "Well North Korea and the Democrats are similar."
    posted by chris24 at 7:53 PM on August 18 [5 favorites +] [!]


    Neither invaded Poland in 1939, neither drove a Dodge Charger into protesters in Charlottesville, and neither said Obama was Kenyan. Wake up sheeple.
    posted by saysthis at 4:40 AM on August 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


    palmcorder_yajna: "The most racist statue in America sits in Pittsburgh, PA.

    And OMFG,I did not know about Damon Young before, but now I am devouring all of his essays.
    "

    I've been a fan of VSB for a while but they just got bought by The Root within the last week or two so they should be getting a much larger audience now. Young and I are actually neighbors here in Pittsburgh's North Side so it's fun when he drops local references like "El Burro" taco shop in this one.

    I've walked/drive/biked past that stupid statue of Stephen Foster easily a thousand times in the last three decades so I stopped noticing it ages ago but he is right about it. I mean I don't know if it's "the most racist statue in America", that's a tough contest to win, but it's pretty bad.
    posted by octothorpe at 4:45 AM on August 18, 2017 [9 favorites]


    A school teacher accused of repeatedly punching what she described as “Nazi scum” during a protest has defended her actions – saying that standing up to white nationalists is “not a crime”.
    YAY for Ms Felarca.
    posted by adamvasco at 4:58 AM on August 18, 2017 [15 favorites]


    yeah and she was about half the size of the nazi too
    posted by mbo at 5:03 AM on August 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Meet Chris Barker the grand wizard of the Loyal White Knights faction of the KKK, which participated in the “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia last weekend.
    Interviewed by Ilia Calderón, a Univision journalist with both African and Colombian heritage,
    When the journalist asked him how he planned to “burn out” 11 million immigrants, he responded: “We killed 6 million Jews the last time. Eleven million is nothing.
    The question I am asking myself here is why I am reading about this shit in a British publication and not an American one.
    posted by adamvasco at 5:07 AM on August 18, 2017 [38 favorites]


    neither drove a Dodge Charger

    Challenger. Not a big thing and hardly a moment of honor for the model but confusing them makes the spirits of Kowalski and Super Soul cry.
    posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:10 AM on August 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Just jumping in here to say that I'm proud of my friend's work on this, particularly this:

    "Some components of participation in a civil society are so elementary that an employer need not spell it out for its employees," Wright wrote in a statement. "Not being a Nazi is one of these things."
    posted by meinvt at 5:17 AM on August 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


    I Used To Be a Neo-Nazi. Charlottesville Terrifies Me. Timothy Zaal in Politico Magazine
    I gave up being a skinhead years ago. But now, I’m getting uncomfortable feelings of déjà vu as I watch footage of the bloody events in Charlottesville. The white supremacist organizations of my day were different, but after researching these so-called “alt-right” groups, and seeing the violence this weekend, I realize they’re all too similar. [...]

    But there’s one huge difference: These newer offshoots have been far more successful than we could ever have dreamed. When you see crowds of hundreds marching through the streets with their faces uncovered, when white supremacist leader Richard Spencer holds a press conference a few days after a woman was killed by one of his fellow travelers and hosts reporters in his home, it becomes clear just how much more terrifying this new generation of extremists is. They’re savvier than we were. Better connected.
    posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 5:17 AM on August 18, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Just don't mention that he was vegetarian. Please.

    The vegan, organic, far-right apple farmers of eastern Germany.
    posted by clawsoon at 5:21 AM on August 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


    It seems Antifa has a Tumblr. And someone wrote in to accuse them of being worse than Nazis.
    you antifa guys are actually more hateful and violent than any neo nazi group in the 21st century. its fucking disgusting and you should be branded as terrorists just as much as the KKK

    We’d usually just block you, Anon, but we’re going to use your message as a reminder of where the violence is coming from in 2017. Off the top of our heads, here’s what the year has looked like so far:
    They then proceeded to list all the rightwing hate crimes just in 2017 with news links and conclude with:
    In case you have trouble counting, Anon, that’s twelve shootings, seven arsons, eleven stabbings, five mob beatings, over 40 bomb threats, one failed bombing, and an acid attack by bigots, Islamophobes, nazis and racists so far this year.

    Twenty-Eight people are dead because of these bigoted attacks and fifty-eight were severely injured.

    But it’s anti-fascists that people should be worried about, right?

    “you should be branded as terrorists just as much as the KKK“

    Really, now? Anti-fascists are as much terrorists as the KKK, a terrorist organization which murdered over 3000 people in lynchings, arsons, bombings, etc. over its 150-year history, are we? Maybe it’s time you learned about the logical fallacy of false equivalence, Anon!
    * Anon is not Anonymous the hacker group, but just an anonymous poster
    posted by chris24 at 5:40 AM on August 18, 2017 [31 favorites]


    The vegan, organic, far-right apple farmers of eastern Germany.

    Whence, in part, the Front Deutscher Äpfel.

    Hungary has the Garlic Front.

    What's the equivalent, stateside? (Once there were Billionaires for Bush... now?)
    posted by progosk at 5:50 AM on August 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I've walked/drive/biked past that stupid statue of Stephen Foster easily a thousand times in the last three decades so I stopped noticing it ages ago but he is right about it. I mean I don't know if it's "the most racist statue in America", that's a tough contest to win, but it's pretty bad.

    Whenever we have visitors in town that we take down there, my husband always points that statue out. "And here we have a racist statue of noted thief of Black culture, Stephen Foster."
    It's owned by the city, not the Carnegie or Pitt, so tweet @billpeduto (I @ed at him a couple days ago about something else and he replied surprisingly swiftly). There have been people asking it be taken down for years and I gather through the grapevine that due to recent events it is picking up steam. So, call your councilperson....oh wait is Harris your councilperson? Just tweet at the mayor lol
    posted by soren_lorensen at 5:54 AM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Also from Reddit: The circles of alt-right radicalization online and on reddit.

    This morning, on Ways In Which I've Felt Like Cassandra For the Last Five Years...
    posted by soren_lorensen at 6:01 AM on August 18, 2017 [11 favorites]


    The question I am asking myself here is why I am reading about this shit in a British publication and not an American one.

    This is the two-edged sword. I have seen people here and elsewhere advocate against covering the actions and ideas of Nazis and organized white supremacists in the media because it may assist them in recruiting, because their ideas are worthless and repugnant to American values, and because it's offensive to see them consume airtime when then there are other voices so much more worthy. At the same time, it's that very coverage that allow us to be aware of who and where they are and what they're talking about and planning, allow investigators to dissect their their rhetoric and infiltrate their groups, and alert the public that we have a serious and growing problem that needs to be addressed. How, without this coverage, would we know who Spencer is? How would antifa, the clergy, the left know when and where to assemble? How would we convince middle-of-the-road people that it's really that awful?
    posted by Miko at 6:14 AM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    at the end of the tarring-and-feathering story: "The monument was placed here (in Arizona) by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, a group headquarted in Richmond, Virginia. We reached out to the group...but got no response."

    Time for somebody to do some splaining. Now that I've learned about that group's insanely pernicious campaign to memorialize hate nationwide, I think it's time to ask them to own some shit.
    posted by Miko at 6:18 AM on August 18, 2017 [19 favorites]


    "The monument was placed here (in Arizona) by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, a group headquarted in Richmond, Virginia. We reached out to the group...but got no response."

    If they've abandoned it, then it's pretty straightforward to demolish it, then send them a bill for the cleanup. Might have to condemn it first, mileage varies..
    posted by mikelieman at 6:20 AM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    now Normal Ordinary Guy Uniform gives me the creeps

    I've actually always sorta felt that way, and now it's just that much worse. Doesn't help that I live in DC.
    posted by aspersioncast at 6:25 AM on August 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


    soren_lorensen: "It's owned by the city, not the Carnegie or Pitt, so tweet @billpeduto (I @ed at him a couple days ago about something else and he replied surprisingly swiftly). There have been people asking it be taken down for years and I gather through the grapevine that due to recent events it is picking up steam. So, call your councilperson....oh wait is Harris your councilperson? Just tweet at the mayor lol"

    The mayor has been tweeting about it but he's defering to the Office of Public Art.
    posted by octothorpe at 6:27 AM on August 18, 2017


    Michael Glassman/Salon: Let’s enjoy the white supremacist freakout after DNA tests show they aren’t 100 percent white
    Users of a white supremacist message board are shocked to discover they're not as "pure" as they'd like to be
    Eric Boodman/StatNews: White nationalists are flocking to genetic ancestry tests. Some don’t like what they find
    [many white nationalists taking DNA tests] are disappointed to find out that their ancestry is not as “white” as they’d hoped. In a new study, sociologists Aaron Panofsky and Joan Donovan examined years’ worth of posts on Stormfront to see how members dealt with the news.

    It’s striking, they say, that white nationalists would post these results online at all. After all, as Panofsky put it, “they will basically say if you want to be a member of Stormfront you have to be 100 percent white European, not Jewish.”

    But instead of rejecting members who get contrary results, Donovan said, the conversations are “overwhelmingly” focused on helping the person to rethink the validity of the genetic test. And some of those critiques — while emerging from deep-seated racism — are close to scientists’ own qualms about commercial genetic ancestry testing.

    Panofsky and Donovan presented their findings at a sociology conference in Montreal on Monday. The timing of the talk — some 48 hours after the violent white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va. — was coincidental. But the analysis provides a useful, if frightening, window into how these extremist groups think about their genes.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 6:27 AM on August 18, 2017 [9 favorites]


    NBC News Roger Taney Statue Removed From Maryland State House
    ANNAPOLIS, Md. — A statue of the of the U.S. Supreme Court justice who wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision that upheld slavery and denied citizenship to African Americans was removed from the grounds of the Maryland State House early Friday morning.
    Another stealth removal by Maryland. This is really the best way to do it so that there are no chances for the KKK to rally around. Unfortunately it can only happen in places controlled by Democrats. I would love for the Raleigh City Council to do this but I don't know what kind of trouble they would be in since the State has forbidden it.

    VOX I've studied the history of Confederate memorials. Here's what to do about them.
    A controversy in Reidsville, North Carolina in 2011, which failed to attract any national attention, offers a window into the origins of Confederate monuments and their contested “ownership.” That year, an errant driver plowed into the generic Confederate soldier memorial that stood precariously beside a major street in the small town, 25 miles north of Greensboro.

    Because other motorists had previously hit the monument, the UDC, which had funded and erected the monument in 1910, decided the sculpture would be safer if it was moved to a nearby cemetery. But in a strange twist, the plan was blocked when the Sons of Confederate Veterans, another Confederate heritage organization, sued the UDC to prevent the relocation of the monument. Eventually, the UDC prevailed and the restored monument was rededicated in the cemetery in 2014. The city itself was a spectator in this legal fight.

    Had the dispute flared after 2015, when the state legislature passed a law effectively blocking the removal of monuments, the UDC would have had to tangle not only with neo-Confederates but also with state legislators.
    Step One: repeal acts passed by state legislators to prevent their removal.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:57 AM on August 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


    San Diego removed its plaque for Jefferson Davis Highway. WTH is a traitor highway doing in California in the first place? Erin Blakemore's tweets explain. Long story short; in the 1910s the United Daughters of the Confederacy funded a transcontinental highway in opposition to the Lincoln Highway (aka I-80).
    posted by Nelson at 7:01 AM on August 18, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Annapolis also has two good public monuments honoring African-Americans, both erected while I lived there in the late '90s at least partially in response to complaints about Roger Taney. Now Taney is gone, but Alex Haley and Thurgood Marshall are still there.
    posted by hydropsyche at 7:17 AM on August 18, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Those genetic ancestry tests are problematic in many ways. Look at that stupid ad that they're running these days: dude "traded in my lederhosen for a kilt." Why? It's so stupid. If you want lederhosen, wear lederhosen. Or a kilt. Who gives a shit. It's all LARPing anyway, so why does your genetics matter at all.

    It's a benign form of genetic essentialism that bears a creepy resemblance to the malignant forms.
    posted by yesster at 7:19 AM on August 18, 2017 [25 favorites]


    The Atlantic: The Dark Minds of the Alt-Right
    A psychology paper put out just last week by Patrick Forscher of the University of Arkansas and Nour Kteily of Northwestern University seeks to answer the question of just what, exactly, it is that the alt-right believes. What differentiates them from the average American?
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:33 AM on August 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Yeah those genetic commercials always pinged as off for me too. There's one where a woman always thought she was Hispanic and it turns out she's got some Native American and now she checks the "other" box. My first thought was about how all these white people are going to claim to be minorities now, which is probably not what was intended by the marketers.

    Speaking of the founding fathers/slavers: this guy's whole twitter is just great but my sister sent this to me yesterday and I thought I'd share it here
    posted by LizBoBiz at 7:35 AM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Yeah those genetic commercials always pinged as off for me too. There's one where a woman always thought she was Hispanic and it turns out she's got some Native American and now she checks the "other" box. My first thought was about how all these white people are going to claim to be minorities now, which is probably not what was intended by the marketers.

    The worst one is a woman who though she was married to an Italian but *gasp* is actually married to an Eastern European?!
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:49 AM on August 18, 2017


    I think the most interesting thing about the Kessler story is the the dude, following their timeline, was radicalized by the MRA and their poison pill thinking.
    posted by frecklefaerie at 7:50 AM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Anecdata: My sister connected with her Birth Family via 23 and Me.

    Hidden in Plain Sight
    November 16, 2015 By 23andMe under Ancestry


    and it's a heck of a story.
    posted by mikelieman at 7:53 AM on August 18, 2017 [10 favorites]


    NBC News Roger Taney Statue Removed From Maryland State House

    Interesting dynamics here.

    Maryland's Republican governor read the political tea leaves and called for the statue's removal (a reversal from 2 years ago following the mass murder at Emanuel AME church in Charleston, when he called removal of statues "political correctness run amok").

    The President of the Maryland Senate, Mike Miller, a crusty old Democrat (and longest-serving state legislative leader in any state in US history, ever ever) is now bemoaning the removal of the statue, calling the legacy of the man who wrote the Dred Scott decision "complex." (In 2017 alone, Miller also torpedoed the Maryland Trust Act, which sought to prevent local law enforcement from collaborating with ICE, and unsuccessfully attempted to overturn the state's new fracking ban at the 11th hour.)

    tl;dr: Mike Miller is a piece of shit.
    posted by duffell at 7:53 AM on August 18, 2017 [11 favorites]


    I have successfully used DNA tests and genealogy research to disprove white supremacist assertions about people's ancestry, thanks to Ancestry and the like.
    posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 7:58 AM on August 18, 2017 [3 favorites]



    I think the most interesting thing about the Kessler story is the the dude, following their timeline, was radicalized by the MRA and their poison pill thinking.


    This is clearly really common. And it makes sense that misogyny is a gateway drug for young white men into bigotry of other forms. Most suburban white dudes don't really know many or any people of color, but they do know lots of women. Lots of fodder for grievance makes for an easy entry into a radicalizing subculture. And the full bore Nazis know this and use it for recruitment, pretty overtly.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 8:07 AM on August 18, 2017 [28 favorites]


    Har! "Fuck him and his wood teeth."
    posted by Don Pepino at 8:13 AM on August 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


    The DNA ethnicity is complicated. People take the test and are like, oh, turns I'm 5 percent Jewish, or 3 percent Native American.

    No you aren't. Those ethnicitis have bounded parameters, and "percentage of DNA test" is not part of those bounds. There is blood quantum in Native American identity, and there is maternal bloodline in Judaism, but DNA tests are not part of it, especially when percentages come back very low.

    So certainly one can discover that, say, they have some fractional Ashkenazi DNA, but don't start planning your Bar Mitzvah. There's still a lot of steps before the Jewish community accepts you as a member.
    posted by maxsparber at 8:23 AM on August 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


    The percentages fluctuate from year to year as they tweak their models. The more useful part imo is the genetic relatives section, where you can show someone that these dark-skinned people are 2nd or 3rd cousins, and those relatives of yours have the same dark-skinned people as common relatives.
    posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 8:27 AM on August 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Yeah those genetic commercials always pinged as off for me too. There's one where a woman always thought she was Hispanic and it turns out she's got some Native American and now she checks the "other" box. My first thought was about how all these white people are going to claim to be minorities now, which is probably not what was intended by the marketers.

    Oh yeah, the "After benefiting from white privilege and identity for my entire life, I discovered I'm '22% Native American,' (an utterly nonsensical bit of pseudo-data), and now I'm so excited to learn about My Culture" one is super-creepy. Here's a thing to learn: "Native American" is not a culture; it's 500 cultures.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 8:44 AM on August 18, 2017 [19 favorites]


    Well, I think it would be wonderful if anyone is going to make the point that it's possible to be in a close blood relationship with someone of visibly different ethnicity, that the point isn't written as though white is the norm to which people of colour can be surprisingly related. If you're going to be all 'we' and 'you' and 'your' referring to mefites for gods sake take on board MF isn't completely white.
    posted by glasseyes at 8:49 AM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Sorry, I actually was calling you out, Radiophonic Oddity. The way you put that REALLY jarred with me.
    posted by glasseyes at 8:50 AM on August 18, 2017


    fuckfuckfuck
    @katinaparker: KKK has been spotted on Hillsborough Rd. Armed. Marching to the old Durham County Courthouse.
    This has distinct overtones of the Greensboro Massacre, especially if the cops are mysteriously unavailable like they were both in 1977 and on Saturday.
    posted by zombieflanders at 8:54 AM on August 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


    glasseyes, I didn't like the wording of what I wrote either, it was hastily and poorly written.
    posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 9:00 AM on August 18, 2017 [1 favorite]




    I'll try again - with dna relatives, you can show an ostensibly 'white' person that they are related to someone they would not consider to be 'white', and that a fraction of their other known relatives in the database are also related to that same 'non-white' person.
    posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 9:05 AM on August 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


    > Those ethnicitis have bounded parameters, and "percentage of DNA test" is not part of those bounds.

    If you believed in ethnical purity, it might be.

    Then again (previously), we're all family!
    posted by farlukar at 9:08 AM on August 18, 2017


    Holy crap. The counter protest is already insanely big.
    posted by Talez at 9:11 AM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Livestream from Durham counterprotest
    posted by oakroom at 9:13 AM on August 18, 2017


    Yeah those genetic commercials always pinged as off for me too.

    You're not alone. (SLKeyandPeele)
    posted by schadenfrau at 9:14 AM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Livestream WTVD/ABC.
    posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:16 AM on August 18, 2017


    Can someone explain that southern cross flag please
    posted by glasseyes at 9:20 AM on August 18, 2017


    (I cannot find a browser that lets that video play, TWinbrook8. Goldang future.) Enabled Flash for that one page, n/m.
    posted by XtinaS at 9:21 AM on August 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


    In the live feed with the marchers - the counterprotestors
    posted by glasseyes at 9:25 AM on August 18, 2017



    Can someone explain that southern cross flag please

    It was a Virginia battle flag, not the national flag of the Confederate states. The stars represented the 11 states actually in the Confederacy plus Kentucky and Missouri.

    Confederate battle flag: Separating the myths from facts
    (CNN.com text article.)

    During the Jim Crow era that flag was adopted, so to speak, by white supremacists, and then sentimentalized in the 1970s in the show "Dukes of Hazzard" and in other uses to represent "courage" and "valor" of Confederate soldiers and kin.
    posted by jgirl at 9:32 AM on August 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


    If you believed in ethnical purity, it might be.

    What? No, I believe ethnic groups have the right to self-determination, and that people who have not previously been part of that group don't get to push their way in because they show up with a DNA test that shows they share 5 percent genetic material.

    Genetics is not ethnicity.
    posted by maxsparber at 9:35 AM on August 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


    There's a marcher in the counter protest with what looks like a southern cross, I'm wondering if that's not what it is or if it's been subverted in some way.
    posted by glasseyes at 9:36 AM on August 18, 2017


    There's a marcher in the counter protest with what looks like a southern cross, I'm wondering if that's not what it is or if it's been subverted in some way.

    I saw that. The stars have been altered to resemble Klan hoods. I interpreted that to mean "This flag is 100% the flag of white supremacy, stop playing like it's not."
    posted by soren_lorensen at 9:38 AM on August 18, 2017 [3 favorites]




    As any reputable geneticist (and other scientists) will tell you, there's no such thing as race within homo sapiens. Anyone who bangs on about ethnic purity is objectively wrong, and if they've been told this and they carry on banging, they are objectively racist.

    It's all very simple.

    (Genetics isn't very simple, it's very complicated. But that bit's simple.)
    posted by Devonian at 9:42 AM on August 18, 2017 [7 favorites]


    >> If you believed in ethnical purity, it might be.
    > What? No

    Well that "you" was not necessarily you, maybe better would have been "if one believed", with "one" being you know who.
    posted by farlukar at 9:45 AM on August 18, 2017


    Race doesn't exist, but racism does.
    posted by rhizome at 9:45 AM on August 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Well that "you" was not necessarily you, maybe better would have been "if one believed", with "one" being you know who.

    If you know who is white racists, the flaw in their ointment is that white is not an ethnicity, but a demarcation of privilege. Almost all of them belong to some sort of ethnic group, like, I don't know, German-American, or whatever. But they are trying to get whiteness identified as an ethnicity, and that's going to be a problem because Americans as a whole are pretty genetically diverse.

    It's also going to be a problem because of people like me, who are almost 100 percent European, but also happen to be Jewish thanks to adoption. It's why ethnicity is a lot more complicated than DNA tests, and why one has very little to do with the other.
    posted by maxsparber at 9:48 AM on August 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


    "Race is a social construct." ≠ "Race doesn't exist."
    posted by tivalasvegas at 9:49 AM on August 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Ah, they're burning that flag now.
    "I believe that we will win"
    posted by glasseyes at 9:57 AM on August 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


    It is extraordinary to be watching this from Bristol. Very very heartening.
    posted by glasseyes at 9:58 AM on August 18, 2017




    For those counter-protesting in Boston tomorrow, from the local National Lawyers Guild chapter [facebook]:
    Folks that are going to be in Boston tomorrow to counteract the Nazi demonstration: the National Lawyers Guild is running legal support and will have legal observers on the ground. The folks in the lime green hats are there to observe and make sure a third party account is on the books.

    For legal support, write this number on your arm/hand in permanent marker: 617-431-6626. If you are arrested, the police are not going to allow you to keep your cell phone.
    See y'all there.
    posted by melissasaurus at 10:16 AM on August 18, 2017 [14 favorites]




    "Race is a social construct." ≠ "Race doesn't exist."


    Like gods, It has no objective existence outside human fantasies. Anyone dragging in hard science in support of it being anything else is not competent in that science.
    posted by Devonian at 10:18 AM on August 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Last night I read that Six Flags Over Texas was going to keep flying the Confederate flag. Today? Not so much.
    posted by scalefree at 11:07 AM on August 18, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Like gods, It has no objective existence outside human fantasies. Anyone dragging in hard science in support of it being anything else is not competent in that science.

    On the other hand, anyone dragging in hard science to "prove" that it's meaningless is not competent in how humanity works.
    posted by languagehat at 11:07 AM on August 18, 2017 [9 favorites]


    But who does that?
    posted by Devonian at 11:09 AM on August 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Also from Reddit: The circles of alt-right radicalization online and on reddit.

    Great overview. But while this post touches on Bannon and 4chan/stormfront vote brigading, it's worth highlighting that the radicalization of Reddit is the result of a targeted recruitment campaign waged by neo-Nazis. In March 2015, just as Gamergate was starting to ramp up, The Daily Stormer posted an article titled Reddit is Fertile Ground for Recruitment (link to archive.is to avoid giving them traffic):
    For White Nationalists, the really great thing about Reddit is that it provides quite a lot of fertile ground for recruiting young people into the pro-White movement. Reddit has a strong reputation for being a far-left SJW hugbox and it’s frequently mentioned in the same breath as Tumblr. However, many areas of Reddit are much more open to our ideas than you might think.
    The article then goes on to call out /r/conspiracy, /r/worldnews, /r/worldpolitics, and /r/europe as good potential targets.
    posted by joedan at 11:16 AM on August 18, 2017 [24 favorites]


    Mod note: Y'all, let's try to keep general Trump/Bannon/WH stuff over in the catch-all thread and keep this more focused on Cville developments.
    posted by cortex (staff) at 11:20 AM on August 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


    [Y'all, let's try to keep general Trump/Bannon/WH stuff over in the catch-all thread and keep this more focused on Cville developments.]

    Sorry. I didn't know there were two.
     
    posted by Herodios at 11:24 AM on August 18, 2017


    The question I am asking myself here is why I am reading about this shit in a British publication and not an American one.

    Maybe you're only following white media? Also, Univision is American, they're headquartered in New York. Here's Univision's English-language news site, where you will find coverage of this interview as well as in-depth coverage of issues like the immigration crisis that white media tends to ignore.
    posted by joedan at 11:33 AM on August 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


    > But who does that?

    You new around here? See any religion thread, for starters.
    posted by languagehat at 1:05 PM on August 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


    A statement from the president and CEO of Ancestry.com.

    "The entire Ancestry family is horrified and appalled by the tragic events that occurred in Charlottesville. We not only condemn the violence that occurred but are deeply disturbed by the ideologies of the white supremacist groups who marched there.

    As a company, we believe in the importance of diversity, unity and acceptance, as well as the fundamental truth that we are all more alike than not. Our purpose as a company, and the intent of our products, is to bring our shared diversity into the spotlight in order to promote understanding and equality. To be clear, we are against any use of our product in an attempt to promote divisiveness or justify twisted ideologies.

    Our product is built on science, which illustrates the diversity in all of us. People looking to use our services to prove they are ethnically 'pure' are going to be deeply disappointed. We encourage them to take their business elsewhere.

    Diversity is quite literally part of every person in this country and this planet. We built our AncestryDNA and family history products to celebrate just that—the diversity within each of us and the connections that bring us closer together. Diversity, after all, is in all of our DNA and is the very foundation of Ancestry."
    posted by jgirl at 1:17 PM on August 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


    I've been hard on Arnold Schwarzenegger over the years, generally not bothering to spell his name correctly, but this is great stuff, eloquently stated ...

    “I was surrounded by broken men, men who came home from a war filled with shrapnels and guilt, men who were misled into a losing ideology,” said Schwarzenegger, who was born two years after the war ended.

    “I can tell you that these ghosts you idolize spent the rest of their lives living in shame, and right now they’re resting in hell.”

    posted by philip-random at 1:52 PM on August 18, 2017 [27 favorites]


    Late to this party, but I'm kind of surprised about all the hate given to polo shirts that are not white due to weekend's hate rally. Maybe those of us in subtropical climes, who do have to go to an office but do not have to wear a suit, should think about being all dandy-fied a la Richard Spencer and Co. instead, just because? Thankfully, I decided to grow my hair longer before I started hearing about the fashy cut, though.
    posted by raysmj at 2:16 PM on August 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


    No, the hate belongs primarily to the WHITE polo shirt, the choice of Trump for golfing. None of my polo-ish shirts are white and all of them have pockets instead of logos, setting them further apart.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 2:28 PM on August 18, 2017


    I can't believe personalized DNA heritage tests are even legal. How did we get here?
    posted by Yowser at 2:40 PM on August 18, 2017


    "I couldn't believe I'm 35% Irish!" politicians cue to make personalized DNA testing illegal on the fucking double.
    posted by Yowser at 2:43 PM on August 18, 2017



    I can't believe personalized DNA heritage tests are even legal. How did we get here?


    Why would they be illegal? Why should it be illegal to get information on my personal genetics if I feel so inclined. Just because assholes use them for asshole reasons?
    posted by Jalliah at 2:49 PM on August 18, 2017 [15 favorites]


    A good summary of all the tech companies shutting down extremist sites / profiles / groups this week. But the article also side-eyes the companies in how late they are to act, given all the hate crimes that has been rising in the last two years, as well as the police shootings and y'know, these people being literal Nazis. And it makes some good points that most often it's marginalized groups that have their voices silenced by these companies.
    posted by numaner at 3:02 PM on August 18, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Obtaining information about personal genetics shouldn't be illegal, per se, but it really needs a lot of regulation.

    At a minimum, genetic reports need to come with genetic counselors to interpret the results.

    This genetic counseling (by accredited professionals) is even more important when these testing companies try to tell you what your risks for certain diseases/cancers/whatevers. Genetic susceptibility is enormously complicated, and more importantly, incompletely understood as a field of science. Furthermore, a lot of genetic markers have proven to not actually have a causal effect.

    When a report returns a (for example) 5% Irish doesn't really mean anything and absolutely does not mean that you are 1/20th Irish based on some mixture of ancestors. What it means is that you share a certain amount of similarities (at the locuses that are inspected by the genetic testing company*) that are statistically present in the Irish population. Which is still completely possible even if you never had an Irish ancestor.

    *unless you're getting whole genome sequencing (which costs at least $1000 to get the raw data, with no analysis on top), these companies are only looking at several spots in your genome, not the entire thing
    posted by porpoise at 3:05 PM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Confederate monuments must go immediately (DSA National Director Maria Svart in USA Today)
    posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:19 PM on August 18, 2017 [6 favorites]




    So I was sweating it out in the gym (even in air conditioned rooms it is hot as hades here) look up to mop my face and there on the TV were people in Durham dancing in the street. Wish I had been there. It looked amazing. And for once gave me a positive feeling about living in NC.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:27 PM on August 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


    ^ Maybe you're only following white media.
    Thanks for the condescension.
    I read about the interview here.
    I then googled Ilia Calderón under news and arrived at the Independent article as no other "white" mainstream news carried it.
    So to rephrase my question : why is US media outside of the latin publications not publishing the bigoted hatred which is very present.
    Is it the "Just a few bad apples" mentality? or more as Miko puts it.
    My guess is that showing a fairly large segment of a target audience to be rascist severely pisses of the advertisers.
    Capitalism ain't it grand.
    posted by adamvasco at 4:00 PM on August 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I'm troubled by what happened in Durham today. Although it apparently turned out okay for all involved, I had a very dark feeling about the whole thing, even moreso after it became clear the KKK wasn't coming after all, that it was just a rumor that got people out into the streets and closed businesses downtown. It felt like the counter-protesters were being set up for something terrible to happen to them.
    posted by wondermouse at 7:16 PM on August 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Reddit has a strong reputation for being a far-left SJW hugbox

    *choke* *cough* k-what?
    posted by ctmf at 7:24 PM on August 18, 2017 [32 favorites]


    I... had not seen that.

    Reddit has a strong reputation for being a far-left SJW hugbox and it’s frequently mentioned in the same breath as Tumblr.

    My entire left buttcheek. What the heckins? I have never heard this before anywhere online.
    posted by XtinaS at 7:28 PM on August 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Update: New charges for Charlottesville car attack suspect James Fields Jr., CBS (warning: autoplay video containing racists)
    Charlottesville police have added charges against the man authorities say drove his car into a group of counter-protesters at a white nationalist rally.

    Police said Friday that they had charged James Alex Fields Jr. with five additional felony charges -- two counts of malicious wounding and three counts of aggravated malicious wounding.
    posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 7:32 PM on August 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


    But the article also side-eyes the companies in how late they are to act, given all the hate crimes that has been rising in the last two years, as well as the police shootings and y'know, these people being literal Nazis.

    Charlottesville was the day everybody with half a brain had to stop pretending it's all going to go away on it's own without having to act. The day overlooking it as inevitable background radiation became untenable.
    posted by ctmf at 7:40 PM on August 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


    >>Reddit has a strong reputation for being a far-left SJW hugbox and it’s frequently mentioned in the same breath as Tumblr.

    >My entire left buttcheek. What the heckins? I have never heard this before anywhere online.


    There's actually a lot of truth to this. Like Twitter, it's a vast realm with people of every stripe. The main /r/politics subreddit, with a huge 2 million followers, is 10 times the size of /r/The_Donald and generally left and anti-Trump though it was controlled by the right/Russian bots? for a time last spring.

    Keeping in mind that that comment was from several years ago, it's probably referring to the various SRS (Shit Reddit Says) subreddits, which were among the early pioneers in online safe spaces.
    posted by msalt at 8:49 PM on August 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Reddit has a strong reputation for being a far-left SJW hugbox

    Also, keep in mind that that's from The Daily Stormer, an outfit whose opinions are... well, y'know, not good.
    posted by mhum at 9:00 PM on August 18, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Their definition of "far-left" might be a little non-consensus, I think it's fair to say.
    posted by msalt at 9:43 PM on August 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Nothing that uses a phrase like "far-left SJW hugbox" is intersecting with reality in any way, preferring instead to dismiss it with a bizarre collection of thought-terminating cliches.
    posted by maxsparber at 11:59 PM on August 18, 2017 [24 favorites]


    anem0ne That's only the main /r/shitredditsays. The other /r/SRS[insert thing here] subreddits are mostly for serious discussion.

    Or, at least that's the theory. These days the whole SRS section of reddit is pretty dead, it had its day in the sun but now mostly survives as a boogieman invoked by right wing redditors rather than an actual community. You're lucky to find a thread with even 20 comments on most of the SRS branded subreddits, and a lot of them go months between new posts and even the more active have only a post a day or so.

    The idea they had, of a tightly policed community that was explicitly and aggressively not open to the usual douchebro reddit community spread to other places though so even if SRS is basically dead it's spawned a few actually decent parts of reddit.

    EDIT: The white dude who owns /r/feminism is, of course, still terrified of SRS and uses it as his justification for evicting all feminists from /r/feminism. He actually PM'ed me a few months ago and among other things confirmed that he was still convinced that SRS was out to get him and steal away /r/feminism from him.
    posted by sotonohito at 4:29 AM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


    "Far-left SJW hugbox" sounds like the meme I've seen on the social medias, "What exactly does the 'alt-left' do? Hug people hard af? Healthcare the hell out of you? Wheel those meals in with attitude?" All of which sounds pretty amazing (if not very far left) to me. Like, does someone at my local makerspace have some open sourced plans for constructing one of these hugbox? If so, sign me up!
    posted by eviemath at 6:03 AM on August 19, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Antifascist group outs Honeoye Falls [NY] man as Charlottesville marcher
    A Rochester-based antifascist group [Eastside Antifascists] posted about 250 fliers around Honeoye Falls earlier this week that identify a village resident marching in a rally attended by white supremacists in Charlottesville, Va., this past weekend.

    “No Nazis in our neighborhood,” read the words emblazoned in large, bold type across the tops of the fliers, which also show a picture of a group of demonstrators carrying tiki torches on the campus of the University of Virginia at Charlottesville the night of Aug. 11. One man carrying a torch near the bottom right corner of the image is circled.

    The fliers identify the circled man as Jerrod Kuhn and claim that he is a “leading figure with the Daily Stormer, an avowedly neo-Nazi website around which local groups have been organizing to promote anti-Semitism, white supremacy and violence against LGBTQ communities.” [see also]
    Court papers: Fairport [NY] man attacked veteran because he thought he was a communist:
    Twenty-eight-year-old Robert Sayer is charged with robbery and assault. Police say he attacked the 82-year-old veteran Wednesday morning at this gas station at the corner of Main Street and Route 31F.

    "Unprovoked... Strangers. They don't know one another," says Fairport Police Chief Sam Farina. "There was never any verbal exchange from what we understand from our investigation. He just went directly over to the gentleman and just started to assault him." [...] The chief says that Sayer also told officers that he had been in Charlottesville before the attack...“At this point, it really is not relevant to the case. I mean that's something that is ancillary to where he was before but it doesn't impact or influence our investigation.” [see also]
    Eastside Antifascists [facebook] has identified Sayer in photos next to Kuhn at the march, but the news won't run them without someone who knows Sayer personally identifying him; the Fairport Police Chief (Farina) claims that they haven't been able to "substantiate" Sayer's "claim" that he was at the rally. Note: Farina used to be a Rochester Police Commander but resigned in disgrace after the arrest of a local activist (Emily Good) for video taping a traffic stop; he also has a history of domestic violence.
    posted by melissasaurus at 6:05 AM on August 19, 2017 [14 favorites]


    Everyone going to counterprotest today in Boston, stay safe and scrappy! I'll see you there!
    posted by ChuraChura at 6:06 AM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]


    There's actually a lot of truth to this. Like Twitter, it's a vast realm with people of every stripe. The main /r/politics subreddit, with a huge 2 million followers, is 10 times the size of /r/The_Donald and generally left and anti-Trump though it was controlled by the right/Russian bots? for a time last spring.

    Maybe more accurate to call it the Misogynist Left. Which, per that Atlantic article (I think?), makes it fertile recruitment ground for other kinds of bigotry.
    posted by schadenfrau at 6:46 AM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Which, per that Atlantic article (I think?), makes it fertile recruitment ground for other kinds of bigotry.

    Yeah, it's almost like male contempt for the feminine is practice for hating people who aren't you.
    posted by MonkeyToes at 6:53 AM on August 19, 2017 [34 favorites]


    Yeah, it's almost like male contempt for the feminine is practice for hating people who aren't you.

    Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing some more about this connection. Recently I recall seeing something about how mass murderers more often than not have a history of domestic violence, which is dismissed as an everyday bread-and-butter crime, which means that some of these folks are not being as closely watched as may be warranted.

    Misogyny and other forms of bigotry aren't just coeval. They are fundamentally linked to the same theories of social dominance and the same psychological deficits.
    posted by Miko at 7:39 AM on August 19, 2017 [16 favorites]


    I am not sure of unicornriot.ninja as a source, however:

    DATA RELEASE: Discord Chats Planned Armed Neo-Nazi Militia Operations In Charlottesville
    posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


    The idea they had, of a tightly policed community that was explicitly and aggressively not open to the usual douchebro reddit community spread to other places though so even if SRS is basically dead it's spawned a few actually decent parts of reddit.

    r/GamerGhazi began as a sub to mock and track Gamergate and was deliberately turned into more of a general nerdy social justice/politics/culture subreddit. I haven't been to a fempire sub in ages but I do check in on Ghazi every now and a again.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 7:45 AM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]


    (Seems to indicate that they are VERY interested in using Stand Your Ground and similar laws as a pretext to shoot people)
    posted by Artw at 7:46 AM on August 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Unicorn Riot are good folks, lefties with cameras who go to where things are happening, talk to people, and shoot lots of footage.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 7:46 AM on August 19, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Maybe more accurate to call it the Misogynist Left. Which, per that Atlantic article (I think?), makes it fertile recruitment ground for other kinds of bigotry.

    I'm talking specifically about the current /r/politics subreddit. Are you? I check it fairly often and don't see any particular sign of misogyny, which is readily visible on The_Donald and various MRA and conservative subreddits. But as I noted, they are much smaller.
    posted by msalt at 7:50 AM on August 19, 2017


    Are you?

    In the sense that I'm talking about all of Reddit, yes. And before people go in on the condescending explanations about subreddits: yeah, I've had several reddit accounts over the years. I'm familiar. Those ideas, attitudes, and beliefs have spread to every single subreddit I've ever even peeked at, even the small ones, even the ones notionally "left." They 'quarantined' only after the virus had already run around the site enough times to mutate into a variety of strains. I seriously have seen it everywhere.

    If you don't see that I don't know what to tell you except that maybe, if you're a dude, you're misogyny detector isn't as finely calibrated as you think.
    posted by schadenfrau at 8:23 AM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Misogyny on the left is a lot more subtle and harder to spot. Usually, leftist misogynists are at least in their public presentation all about women's bodily autonomy and encouraging the use of sexuality as personal empowerment, on the implicit theory women who focus on achieving personal empowerment through sexuality may be more persuadable to make random hookups. Nobody ever argues Trump or any other man's best path to success and power originates in "working it"; Trump's power comes from his social and family connections and the fact his status gives him the privilege to sleep around and even sexually assault women is incidental, a perk of his status and power not its source. But in my experience, the deeply misogynist leftists are the type lots of 60s activists came to recognize were opportunistically appropriating the language and ideas of the sexual revolution and feminist concepts of bodily autonomy and sexual agency to improve their odds of scoring with activist feminists and weaken and undermine the relationship bonds that make the objects of their sexual interests unavailable to them. That type of subtle manipulation of otherwise good ideas for personal gain undermines and thwarts a lot of good intentions on the left. I don't know. Maybe I'm just cynical and paranoid, but I swear I've had run-ins with that sort of misogyny from both men and women in activist circles on the left. It's part of why I'm reluctant to get more engaged in formal activism. Creeps me out.
    posted by saulgoodman at 8:33 AM on August 19, 2017 [17 favorites]




    If you don't see that I don't know what to tell you except that maybe, if you're a dude, you're misogyny detector isn't as finely calibrated as you think.

    Agreed on this--I've been told by so many people over the years that Reddit leans left and if you avoid the really shitty subreddits, you should be fine. But I've rarely found a subreddit (maybe not counting ones that are explicitly social justice-focused and heavily moderated) where there aren't the occasional snide, derisive references to feminism, as though it's of course the default opinion that it's ridiculous. I see somewhat less open racism but the low-level misogyny and the associated anti-"SJW"/PC culture stuff is absolutely omnipresent, including in r/politics.

    If you stick to threads on general political events, maybe you'll be okay but seriously, do not go into any thread explicitly about racism or feminism or BLM or above all, trans people. And it's always in a tone that assumes that there is general agreement. It's very unpleasant and outside of places like r/AskHistorians, I've found that Reddit is just not worth my time.

    One thing that the people saying that Reddit leans left seem to discount is that absent really active moderation, it's not very hard for the people from the really shitty subreddits (many of which, like r/TheDonald, are huge) to go to the reportedly non-shitty ones.
    posted by armadillo1224 at 8:44 AM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Commentor at the Boston counter protests (seen on MSNBC) saying that the counter protestors near the "free speech" nazi sympathizers are shouting "Smile for your exit interview on Monday." Put a smile on my face.
    posted by puddledork at 9:10 AM on August 19, 2017 [28 favorites]


    Reddit leans South Park bro-ism, the MRA and Nazi crap blends in really well with that.
    posted by Artw at 9:12 AM on August 19, 2017 [9 favorites]


    Yeah I think at this point (after Charlottesville) yelling "show your face" and making an obvious show of filming/photographing the racists has gone from something they would enjoy (Any publicity is good, Spencer, etc.) to something that might keep their numbers down.

    In 2017, even doxxing is complicated.
    posted by ctmf at 9:15 AM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Video: The sound of @kendricklamar from this truck in Boston is louder than the nazi rally.

    Police estimate now at 20,000. Is that two Trump inaugurations or three?
    posted by FelliniBlank at 9:16 AM on August 19, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Tumblr also has Nazis on it, BTW, and MRAs and standard misogyny, all sorts of shit, all explicit. As unintuitive as that might be.
    posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 9:26 AM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Pretty beautiful aerial shot of counter-protesters in Boston.

    I don't have any video on the sheetcake sales situation.
    posted by zachlipton at 9:31 AM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


    OMG! I am so impressed with Boston, as an Irish woman I have always felt the history of the Irish there was one of the newest immigrants looking down on the last group of immigrants, and the history of both "cute hoor" or clientelist politics and the stranglehold on the police meant it wasn't the most progressive influence....but to see about 30k protesting the rally that can fit into that little gazebo...it's like 1:10,000 outnumbered or haven't I seen the actual rally form up yet??

    so were they turning ppl away because they came armed?
    (just to explain...we really do see Boston as a satellite of Ireland...)
    posted by Wilder at 9:32 AM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


    The ""free speech"" rally wouldn't let any media in.
    posted by Yowser at 9:33 AM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


    That's OK. The Nazis are free to talk amongst themselves. You hear one Heil, you've heard 'em all.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 9:43 AM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I'm sort of amused by the Nazis in the gazebo. I guess Nazis just love gazebos.
    posted by Miko at 9:46 AM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Hey now! This is the gazebo Nazi. Capt. von Trapp was antifa.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 9:55 AM on August 19, 2017 [13 favorites]


    In 2017, even doxxing is complicated.

    It doesn't seem complicated to me. Each side has people who are willing to lend their physical presence to their movements; to show up to give a face and a name to their side of the issues. They're literally identifying with their movements, to give them political power.

    The Nazis are free to identify any of the counterprotesters and send photos to their employers too.

    The difference is that it would just get the counterprotesters brownie points, while it gets the Nazis fired.
    posted by MrVisible at 10:02 AM on August 19, 2017 [6 favorites]


    It looks like the original rally is over, and was a total flop.
    posted by thegears at 10:12 AM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Taking Back the Tiki

    Dang, so dusty in here.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 10:20 AM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]


    I wouldn't call getting 20,000 people to come to your rally and tell you you're an idiot a "total flop." Seems like it all worked out pretty well, actually.
    posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 10:22 AM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I wouldn't call getting 20,000 people to come to your rally and tell you you're an idiot a "total flop." Seems like it all worked out pretty well, actually.

    I find this idea that the alt-right, broadly speaking, or the white supremacy movement, narrowly speaking, are in this "for the lulz" pernicious and ill-supported. They are staking out actual positions of harm towards women, people of color, ethnic/religious minorities, and trying to drag the Overton window so hard in that direction that I think a vibrant response does more harm to their cause than ignoring them.
    posted by thegears at 10:28 AM on August 19, 2017 [21 favorites]


    So Boston police seem to be determined to turn a peaceful situation violent.
    posted by Yowser at 10:42 AM on August 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


    (is anyone actually there in the comments here? (guessing not))
    posted by Yowser at 10:45 AM on August 19, 2017


    I've been seeing some chatter from Boston area MeFites at the counter-protest on twitter but I don't know if anybody's dipping into the thread here while they're out on the street, yeah.
    posted by cortex at 11:11 AM on August 19, 2017


    Too busy shooing away pesky Nazis in flyover country.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 11:23 AM on August 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I like the response, the counter-protesting. I think it's incredibly important that what happened today in Boston, 20 vs. 20,000 keeps happening.

    Here's what I don't like, though. The nazis get a hugely disproportionate effect for very little effort. 20 guys disrupted Boston. It rewards their terrorism by letting them DoS cities.

    But I think it's important to keep responding the same way, because ultimately it's not winning them anything.
    posted by ctmf at 11:40 AM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I've been seeing some chatter from Boston area MeFites at the counter-protest on twitter but I don't know if anybody's dipping into the thread here while they're out on the street, yeah.

    I recently moved away from that area. 4 of my friends (that I know of) are there and posting from the rally, and I just spotted our former minister, who married me and my husband, in a news photo with other clergy. Very proud of them all! No one's mentioning any issues with police or anything. But the crowd is huge, so such things might be localized.
    posted by Miko at 11:52 AM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]


    The nazis get a hugely disproportionate effect for very little effort

    And then completely wasted it. That was their chance. If they could have put up on stage today just one person with the speaking skills of a Barack Obama - their message is obviously trash but it resonates with certain people - it would have been worldwide on every media outlet by dinnertime. Apparently they are so embarrassed by their own message now they know that would be a net bad thing, making more new enemies than new friends. Back to picking recruits from MRA forums.

    Show your face, nazis. Getting cold feet?
    posted by ctmf at 12:16 PM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


    🚨 Trump is tweeting 🚨

    "Looks like many anti-police agitators in Boston. Police are looking tough and smart! Thank you."

    Not going to link to the asshole in chief but that's his statement on the anti-nazi rally.
    posted by Justinian at 12:26 PM on August 19, 2017 [6 favorites]


    At least last time he blamed many sides. Now he's just attacking the tens of thousands of non-white supremacists.
    posted by zachlipton at 12:32 PM on August 19, 2017 [13 favorites]


    The nazis get a hugely disproportionate effect for very little effort

    But it's an own goal. Those thousands who took to the streets in defense of diversity and unity? They're not feeling beaten down, or defeated, or pushed around right now. They won and they got to hang out with thousands of other people who shared their vision. A rally is in no small part for the people in it, and in terms of morale, public perception, and general fighting spirit this event was a big win for the forces of progress.
    posted by jackbishop at 12:32 PM on August 19, 2017 [21 favorites]


    he nazis get a hugely disproportionate effect for very little effort

    From my personal experience. These folks take little or no response as people agreeing with them. Not getting response just proves that people either don't care or don't care enough to be arsed to do anything about it. They can also get away with more when people aren't watching. Not getting a response means it's okay and time to do more.

    And while you might read stuff about them lulzing about making all these people respond to them it's just show. When you have 10 guys show up thinking they're going to BE BIG MENZ and are met with hundreds of people who are all 'lol no' it matters.
    posted by Jalliah at 12:36 PM on August 19, 2017 [19 favorites]




    For a little bit of a (let's see how long this lasts) twist, Trump has tweeted:

    I want to applaud the many protestors in Boston who are speaking out against bigotry and hate. Our country will soon come together as one!
    posted by thegears at 1:56 PM on August 19, 2017




    I want to applaud the many protestors in Boston who are speaking out against bigotry and hate. Our country will soon come together as one!

    So: 1. he really does believe everything he reads on Breitbart and therefore thinks he is a Democrat now, and/or 2. he is claiming the bigger crowd as his own, regardless of affiliation or alignment, and/or 3. he wants to applaud them, but is afraid the exercise will deplete his finite bodily energies.
    posted by Sys Rq at 2:10 PM on August 19, 2017


    Oh BPD Commissioner, bless your heart for saying the tens of thousands of protestors were there to "oppose free speech"
    posted by Yowser at 2:11 PM on August 19, 2017


    a sublime response.

    They Ken Burnsed it.
    posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on August 19, 2017 [16 favorites]


    I swear I'm going to get whiplash, in the same video he said the thousands of protestors were fighting bigotry and hate.
    posted by Yowser at 2:12 PM on August 19, 2017


    tens of thousands*
    posted by Yowser at 2:13 PM on August 19, 2017


    Oh BPD Commissioner, bless your heart for saying the tens of thousands of protestors were there to "oppose free speech"

    Guess Trump called it right on the whole police = Nazis thing then.
    posted by Artw at 2:13 PM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I've come to the conclusion that the commissioner didn't have a prepared statement. It's the only way to make sense of it.
    posted by Yowser at 2:18 PM on August 19, 2017


    Every time people refer to the BPD Commissioner I wonder how we know he is borderline.

    I did wince quite a bit when he talked about the protesters opposing free speech. I watched it live and I believe Yowser's take is the correct one; this wasn't a prepared statement and he muffed it. The proper thing to do under the circumstances would be to put out a correction but of course that won't happen.
    posted by Justinian at 2:21 PM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


    They Ken Burnsed it.

    Oh god please add the Ken Burns narrator reading the previous tweet thread
    posted by ctmf at 2:23 PM on August 19, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Yowser: where did you see that statement?

    Here are some excerpts of statements I've seen from BPD Commissioner Evans:

    "99.9 percent of the people were here for the right reason and that’s to fight hate and bigotry."

    "40,000 people [were] out here standing tall against hatred and bigotry in our city and that’s a good feeling."
    posted by syzygy at 3:02 PM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Evans' Statement
    posted by Yowser at 3:13 PM on August 19, 2017


    I only know Evans from the two press conferences I saw from the city in the last couple of days, but he is clearly not a strong, or even particularly comfortable public speaker. He seems prone to misstatement (and occasionally poor word choice and/or pronunciation.) I find him kind of charming in his suit that is a size too big. His people did a great job today, as far as I can tell, so I'm happy to overlook some oddities in his statement.
    posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 4:16 PM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]




    I just made it back home after marching/protesting and then being surrounded by my progressive Jewish family to celebrate my cousin's first birthday. My experience at the march was very good, though now I am sunburned. I'm proud to be part of the community here, and I feel like my day was a satisfactory way to say fuck you to Nazis, even if I didn't get close enough to the Common to see any actual Nazis, never mind punch them.
    posted by ChuraChura at 6:50 PM on August 19, 2017 [14 favorites]


    T.D., that's exactly what I was thinking. When do 40,000 people get together in a small space and ~35 people don't get arrested?
    posted by mollweide at 7:07 PM on August 19, 2017


    An estimated 30,000+ in attendance and only 33 arrests? That's basically your average Red Sox home game. Normal stuff.

    is that really true? - i can remember a time where you could get 30k people together and not have 33 arrests

    the thought that this might be normal depresses me because it wasn't always so
    posted by pyramid termite at 7:08 PM on August 19, 2017


    It's not true, pt. About 33 arrests at an average game.
    posted by Justinian at 7:18 PM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I should say - my experience wasn't everyone's experience, and it looks like BPD was policing white and black protesters very differently.
    posted by ChuraChura at 7:18 PM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


    What a surprise...
    posted by Windopaene at 7:20 PM on August 19, 2017


    I just recently got back from Boston too. Woo hoo!

    One of these aerial photos probably includes a pixel which is me thinking about this thread; halfway to Boston Common I realized that I somehow managed to not mention this remarkable quote I found a few months ago while spelunking around the Hathi Trust's collection of scanned books, despite the Nazis and socialism discussion above:
    “Even in [Germany's] military defeat, if peace comes soon, she will have largely accomplished her ends; and, ten or twenty years hence, Europe will be under her rule. She will have adopted a pseudo-socialism that will in reality be such an organization of capitalism as no Socialist prophet ever dreamed of.” - George D. Herron, The Menace of Peace (1917)
    posted by XMLicious at 7:32 PM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]






    I was also in Boston - perhaps mistakenly posted my post-rally report in the other political thread. Suffice to say it was great to see the city come out like that.

    An exchange I overheard really summed it up:

    "Hey, who chased out the Nazis?"

    "Man, the entire city chased them out."
    posted by faineg at 9:29 PM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Marcus Baram, Fast Company: Could The Tech Purge Of Hate Sites Backfire And Actually Harden The Views Of Extremists?
    Certainly, extremists from neo-Nazis to ISIS members have long recruited new members online, via websites or their social media presence. And making their vile content harder to find is sure to reduce its exposure to young minds, who might be lured by their heinous ideologies.

    But when it comes to reintegrating such extremists back into the community, to teach them the value of empathy and love, such censoring or ostracizing tactics may actually backfire, says Sammy Rangel. The former gang leader spent years in a maximum security prison, seething with violence and taking part in race riots, before he learned the power of forgiveness. Now, he helps lead Life After Hate, a group founded by former white supremacists who now seek to help extremists transition out of their belief system and way of life.

    Shutting down these sites is going to have a double-sided effect, says Rangel. It makes such extremist rhetoric less visible, but “it fuels the extremists to dig in further with their justifications because they take it as proof of their grievances rather than an indication of their own wrongdoing,” he tells Fast Company. It also could play into their narrative of themselves as an oppressed group that’s being unfairly maligned, even helping them attract new recruits.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:17 PM on August 19, 2017


    Because letting the Nazis and other Haters have their little forums and "safe spaces" have kept them well contained so far... NOT.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 10:44 PM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


    There's the experience of Reddit and /r/FatPeopleHate. For a while FPH was everywhere. No one really liked them, but their sub was frequently discussed and their posters would pop up regularly in other subs with some insult about the overweight.

    Then the admins finally banned it for harassment and doxxing. There was a shitstorm in response. FPH-ers threatened eternal revenge. The free-speech-at-all-costs crowd went nuts too. But management stuck to their guns. Deleted every single new FPH spinoff sub that was created. Within a couple of weeks, the tantrum was over and the majority of comments were mocking FPH and their whining. Within a month, FPH-ers were nearly extinct in the wild.

    I'm sure the fat haters are still there. But the tide has turned and it's not nearly as acceptable as it was. They can no longer organize campaigns against specific people. Purging content works.

    What worries me a little is the current doxxing trend. I largely agree with it because this tactic will reduce those who are willing to publicly associate themselves. But it's going to make exiting the movement more difficult since the Google search results for their name is going to last for a very long time. Going to be much more difficult to walk away if your name is forever tarnished, and the only part of society which will accept you is the racist part you're trying to escape.
    posted by honestcoyote at 12:09 AM on August 20, 2017 [17 favorites]




    I'm not especially concerned about the permanent Google stain of Nazism, becuase the numbers are small and it's vastly more important to discourage new people from joining in. That deterrence is crucial.

    Besides, the best solution to a bad history is to publicly renounce and campaign against your old mates, which redoubles the diminishing effect.
    posted by msalt at 2:21 AM on August 20, 2017 [9 favorites]


    My problem with doxxing isn't the effects per se but that invariably there are false positives and I doubt those people consider it to be worth it.
    posted by Mitheral at 2:31 AM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Besides, the best solution to a bad history is to publicly renounce and campaign against your old mates, which redoubles the diminishing effect.
    posted by msalt at 6:21 PM on August 20 [1 favorite +] [!]

    My problem with doxxing isn't the effects per se but that invariably there are false positives and I doubt those people consider it to be worth it.
    posted by Mitheral at 6:31 PM on August 20 [+] [!]


    This is why we need to organize and fund the pants off public anti-terror and anti-hate movements. It's like AA. We turn recovery into the best advertisement for itself while painting a very detailed picture of what recovery looks like.
    posted by saysthis at 2:48 AM on August 20, 2017 [5 favorites]


    More US export
    Brasil’s US-Funded “Libertarians” & the Far-Right
    posted by adamvasco at 4:15 AM on August 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Via a lawyer friend on facebook:
    There’s been a lot of well-intentioned sparring over the precise limits of the First Amendment by lawyers and non-lawyers alike in the last few days. There’s a lot of discussion about the relative merits of resistance to Nazis and what forms appropriate resistance takes. As your local friendly lawyer, I GOT SOME THOUGHTS and by golly here’s where I share ‘em. This is gonna be a long one. Get a cup of tea and settle in.

    So look. The American Nazis, whether they be Unite the Right and Chris Cantwell, or Vanguard America are a lot of things, but let’s go mechanically here. They’re an “ongoing organization, association, or group of three or more persons, whether formal or informal, having as one of its primary activities” carrying a concealed firearm, carrying a loaded firearm, threats to commit crimes resulting in death or great bodily injury, unlawful homicide or manslaughter, and assault with a deadly weapon “having a common name or common identifying sign or symbol” like, oh I don’t know let’s just pick a symbol out of the air here swastika/rebel flag/othela rune/black sun/broken sun cross/jug of milk “and whose members individually or collectively engage in or have engaged in a pattern of” carrying a concealed firearm, carrying a loaded firearm, threats to commit crimes resulting in death or great bodily injury, unlawful homicide or manslaughter, and assault with a deadly weapon. (Cal. Penal Code 186.22(f).)

    Some of you see where I’m going here. This is a gang. Those of you who don’t do California law, go ahead and read up, I’ll be here when you get back.

    Each of these groups, individually and collectively, from the Ku Klux Klan to the alt-right hate squad of the week, fits the definition of criminal street gang just as neatly as (I’m going to go ahead and argue MORE NEATLY THAN, because I can’t help it) the Crips, the Bloods, the Latin Kings, MS-13, or whatever other group you might care to name. I know, right? I wanted to say terrorist, too. I wanted to make this big and complicated. But it’s not. We might not see their gang tattoos and gang colors right away (mayyyyyybe because they’re white idk just a guess) but go back and flip through some footage or that Vice documentary and things’ll jump out at you.

    So what do we do about that? Well, first off, at least out here in California, active participation in a criminal street gang is a felony. “Any person who actively participates in any criminal street gang with knowledge that its members engage in or have engaged in a pattern of criminal gang activity, and who willfully promotes, furthers, or assists in any felonious criminal conduct by members of that gang, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not to exceed one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three years.” (Cal. Penal Code 186.22(a).)

    I know, you’re gonna say it’s just speech, or that their participation is somehow protected. Weird, tho, that you don’t have those qualms when we lock up the Rolling 20’s West Coast Crips for threatening people. Why get squeamish now? I’ve been standing in the way of these laws for the better part of a decade, and trust me, the First Amendment aspect has been litigated to death. It does not work out well for Team Defense.

    You’re gonna say “They’re just Nazis on the weekend!” Nah, sorry. “In order to secure a conviction . . . it is not necessary for the prosecution to prove that the person devotes all, or a substantial part, of his or her time or efforts to the criminal street gang, nor is it necessary to prove that the person is a member of the criminal street gang. Active participation in the criminal street gang is all that is required.” (Cal. Penal Code 186.22(i).) BOOM. That day job at Best Buy doesn’t mean a thing.

    SO I hear you saying “But we can’t do anything until they march again!” Nope. It gets better. Any attorneys that are still reading, get ready, I’m about to make you a hero.

    GANG INJUNCTIONS. There’s this thing that is ESTABLISHED LAW and First Amendment tested (read the link up there)(read it read it) where somebody files paper in civil court (no really civil court) that can prevent members of a gang from gathering, conversing, remaining, doing any ol’ otherwise innocent behavior in a specified area. Strong enough for a Crip, but pH balanced for a Nazi.
    Maybe you're worried, because we can't identify all the Nazis! The Klan wears hoods - how will we know who to enjoin? Not a problem, friends! The last gang injunction I saw here in San Bernardino was against 100 John Does.

    JUST SO WE’RE CLEAR: I’m not endorsing these law enforcement tools, any more than I endorse the tides or the changing of seasons or the revival of Will and Grace. They are, or should be, unemotional and content-neutral responses designed to maintain order and safety in these good old United States.

    So let's maintain some order. Talk to your local District Attorney. Enjoin Nazis in your neighborhood. This isn't to say don't counter-protest. This is certainly not to say "trust the system, it'll take care of this." It won't. But the tools to prevent these crimes exist, and an involved group of citizens appealing to the local State's attorney (who probably has an election coming up) could do some real good here.

    And if nothing else, here's some ammo for your conversations with the folks who think the ACLU needs to grapple with its conscience or some other tangled FREE SPEECH quasilegal appeal: if it's not free speech for my clients, it's not free speech for the white supremacists. It's a crime.
    posted by jeather at 6:39 AM on August 20, 2017 [79 favorites]


    Jeather do you have a link for that?
    posted by bq at 8:01 AM on August 20, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Per the LA Times via Twitter, "Dr." Gorka's out
    posted by donatella at 8:29 AM on August 20, 2017


    Per the LA Times via Twitter, "Dr." Gorka's out

    That story is dated May 1.
    posted by FelliniBlank at 8:34 AM on August 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Per the LA Times on May 1, 2017. The thinly and anonymously sourced article turned out to be wrong.
    posted by Nelson at 8:34 AM on August 20, 2017


    Oh, whoops! Sorry, wishful thinking plus "first thing I saw on Twitter when I woke up"
    posted by donatella at 8:49 AM on August 20, 2017


    There seem to be a lack of cases of named Nazi assholes where you'd be on the fence over whether they are actually a Nazi asshole or not. For everyone around them it seems to be more confirmation of what they already knew and permission to act than anything else.
    posted by Artw at 8:58 AM on August 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I was told it can be shared, but only anonymously, bq. Sorry. Feel free to pass it along, though.
    posted by jeather at 9:37 AM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Jason Kessler, the organizer of the Charlottesville Nazi march, wrote then deleted a nasty tweet about Heather Heyer. He claimed at first that his twitter account had been hacked but now he says it was a bad combination of drugs. I was curious to see what the comments were on The Drudge Report and almost every single one was that he was paid by George Soros and/or a plant by Obama. My husband also reports seeing comments in the local news that Kessler had voted for Obama and was actually a Democrat, therefore all the violence that ensued was coming from the Left. Hard to tell if this is something they really believe or just an attempt to muddy the waters.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:14 AM on August 20, 2017 [3 favorites]


    My husband also reports seeing comments in the local news that Kessler had voted for Obama and was actually a Democrat, therefore all the violence that ensued was coming from the Left. Hard to tell if this is something they really believe or just an attempt to muddy the waters.

    It's difficult to be certain but from what I have seen I do think that at one time Kessler was a Dem and did support Obama. Then it looks like he was 'Red Pilled' so to speak and went hard right. This isn't uncommon. There are at least two other high profile people I can think of where this has occurred including one woman, Laci Green.

    It looks like a true Scotsmen like effect occurring. So yes many do believe this and it is an attempt to muddy the waters and cast any an all blame for failure on anyone else but them. No one is wrong therefore when someone does something wrong they're are not one of us, they must actually be working against us and part of the enemy faction.
    This shouldn't be surprising. This sort of pattern happens on the left side of things as well. Someone messes up its infiltrators, agitators or people that were never really with us to begin with. It's not an uncommon dynamic in any sort of social group, especially those that demand narrower and very specific types of thinking.

    The Rights answer to anything that goes against them, causes them to look bad or causes them to fail is it's connected to Soros. So it's not surprising at all that they're connecting him with that. It is their answer to pretty much everything.

    I mean did you know that Soros paid the twenty odd thousand people that showed up in Boston? I was also told he did the same thing in Vancouver.

    It's beyond stupid, but blame Soros and magically there is no need to search any further for answers to why things are bad.
    posted by Jalliah at 11:27 AM on August 20, 2017 [5 favorites]


    he was paid by George Soros and/or a plant by Obama
    This is turning up all over the place. I saw it on a FB feed as comments on a Briebart petition to make antifa a terrorist organisation.
    posted by adamvasco at 11:41 AM on August 20, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Also, as usual, a projection angle. There's an unverified Craigslist screenshot going around for hiring POC to hold signs and shill for Trump in Phoenix.
    posted by ctmf at 12:12 PM on August 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I mean, I know I'm a broken record on this and all, but we're all clear here that "George Soros" is just a stand-in for "An International Conspiracy of Rich Jews" in the right-wing's paranoid fantasies, right?
    posted by tocts at 12:36 PM on August 20, 2017 [19 favorites]


    The people who can't stop talking about Soros now are the people a hundred years ago who would trace the world's woes to the pernicious influence of the Rothschilds
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:13 PM on August 20, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Why not both?
    posted by Yowser at 1:23 PM on August 20, 2017


    The Paranoid Style in American Politics by Richard Hofstadter, Harper's Magazine, 1964.
    posted by soundguy99 at 1:34 PM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]



    I mean, I know I'm a broken record on this and all, but we're all clear here that "George Soros" is just a stand-in for "An International Conspiracy of Rich Jews" in the right-wing's paranoid fantasies, right?


    Yes. I have talked to some though where it does appear that they really think it's all led by him. I think it speaks to general authoritarian thinking. There HAS to be an ultimate leader. One guy at the top of the pyramid. That's how the world works in their minds. This one guy I tried talking with just couldn't seem to fathom that people would get together to do something, in this case one of the airport protests about the Muslim ban, without someone specific telling them too. The idea that people would just go separately because they individually thought it was what they should do was a concept he had a problem imagining.
    posted by Jalliah at 1:52 PM on August 20, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Yowser, I looked at that and thought "That's a very powerful satirical cartoon pointing out the historical precedents and inherent antisemitism of the Right's fixation on Soros!". Then I did some googling of Ben Garrison and realized it wasn't satire and was entirely earnest and felt ill.
    posted by Justinian at 1:53 PM on August 20, 2017 [9 favorites]


    I mean, I know I'm a broken record on this and all, but we're all clear here that "George Soros" is just a stand-in for "An International Conspiracy of Rich Jews" in the right-wing's paranoid fantasies, right?

    The bitter irony being that the biggest outlets pushing that narrative hardest -- Breitbart, The Rebel -- have been explicitly pro-Israel from day one. (Soros is critical of Israel, y'see.) This has led to the bizarre twist lately at The Rebel where owner Ezra Levant claimed to be simply shocked that the Alt-Right he himself had no small part in stirring up was a racist movement (nevermind that before The Rebel, and before the "Alt-Right," his Sun News channel regularly broadcast his own dumb face saying hateful things about Muslims, Roma, First Nations, LGBTQ...); upon subsequently firing a bunch of The Rebel's biggest names (including Faith Goldy, see upthread), he's found himself bombarded with the old "Jews control the media" canard from his own audience. A similar twist can't be far off for Breitbart.
    posted by Sys Rq at 2:01 PM on August 20, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Sorry about that, Justinian. Should have made it more obvious who he was.
    posted by Yowser at 2:06 PM on August 20, 2017


    Protesters in Atlanta channel Ludacris: "Move Trump!"
    posted by Freelance Demiurge at 2:39 PM on August 20, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I'm not quite paranoid, but I can't help believing that many (NOT all) of those claiming that leftist demonstrators are under the employ of a sinister billionaire are themselves under the employ of the Kochs or the Mercers or one of the others (there are SO many). Of course, with the advertisers fleeing Breitbart, Bannon and his pals are now directly in the employ of the Mercer Machine. Projection is where they get most of their ideas, since they can't come up with original ones themselves.

    And my response to the "Jews Control Everything" is that one of the biggest reasons Bernie Madoff and Charles Kushner went to jail for their financial shenanigans and Donald Trump didn't... they're Jewish. And based on that, there's a significant probability that the only member of the Trump family to end up behind bars when this is all over is The Donald's Jewish son-in-law.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 2:43 PM on August 20, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Oh goody, the local Boston news station posted my single favorite video moment of yesterday's protest: "I wanted to make sure that idiot was safe."
    posted by FelliniBlank at 3:17 PM on August 20, 2017 [8 favorites]


    I was told it can be shared, but only anonymously, bq. Sorry. Feel free to pass it along, though.

    Oh, look, The American Prosecutor's Research Institutes Special Topics Series publication "Civil Gang Injunctions - A Guide for Prosecutors"
    posted by mikelieman at 3:17 PM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


    And they're going to rename the "Jefferson Davis Highway" and are taking suggestions. One obvious one "Heather Heyer Highway" may be too tongue-twistery.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 3:48 PM on August 20, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I think it speaks to general authoritarian thinking. There HAS to be an ultimate leader. One guy at the top of the pyramid.

    To which I would remind people that one tornado, and your executors are dealing with your estate.

    Did someone once opine, "Control is an illusion" or is that something I half remember from a Season 1 - 10 Simpsons Episode.

    Relevant Frank Zappa Lyric:
    Do what you wanna
    Do what you will
    Just don't mess up
    Your neighbor's thrill
    'N when you pay the bill
    Kindly leave a little tip
    And help the next poor sucker
    On his one way trip. . .
    posted by mikelieman at 3:55 PM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


    And they're going to rename the "Jefferson Davis Highway" and are taking suggestions. One obvious one "Heather Heyer Highway" may be too tongue-twistery.

    HHH > KKK in any default sorting order I can think of....
    posted by mikelieman at 3:56 PM on August 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Thanks to Paul Ryan's prominence, this protest in my town, literally in front of his family's Catholic church, got some social-media attention. [Local newspaper article]

    This might belong in another thread (the topic was DACA specifically) but for this police electronic notice that went out afterward:

    Due to recent national and world wide events steps were taken to protect the safety of participants by the placing of heavy equipment to mitigate vehicle borne assaults.

    Shit, 2017.
    posted by dhartung at 4:49 PM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I mean, I know I'm a broken record on this and all, but we're all clear here that "George Soros" is just a stand-in for "An International Conspiracy of Rich Jews" in the right-wing's paranoid fantasies, right?

    The bitter irony being that the biggest outlets pushing that narrative hardest -- Breitbart, The Rebel -- have been explicitly pro-Israel from day one. (Soros is critical of Israel, y'see.) . . .



    The Hungarian government has been conducting an official campaign against Soros, but when the Israeli ambassador to Hungary added his voice to complaints that the campaign is anti-Semitic, Netanyahu stepped in:
    On Friday Orbán accused Soros of being a “billionaire speculator” who wanted to use his wealth and civil groups that he supports to “settle a million migrants” in the European Union.

    Orban and government officials say that Hungary has a policy of “zero tolerance” of antisemitism, and that the poster campaign is about increasing awareness of the “national security risk” posed by Soros.

    On Saturday, Israel’s ambassador in Budapest Yossi Amrani also criticised the poster campaign, saying it “evokes sad memories but also sows hatred and fear”.

    But late on Sunday – reportedly at the request of prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office – Israel’s foreign ministry issued a separate “clarification” that criticism of Soros was legitimate.

    This said that while Israel “deplores” antisemitism, Soros “continuously undermines Israel’s democratically elected governments by funding organisations that defame the Jewish state and seek to deny it the right to defend itself.”
    posted by jamjam at 5:06 PM on August 20, 2017


    One obvious one "Heather Heyer Highway" may be too tongue-twistery

    I vote for the part ending in San Diego becoming Huell Howser Highway, but, same problem.
    (Who?)
    posted by Rash at 5:11 PM on August 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


    And they're going to rename the "Jefferson Davis Highway" and are taking suggestions.

    Have they considered "Highway McHighwayface"?
    posted by Faint of Butt at 5:27 PM on August 20, 2017 [23 favorites]


    oneswellfoop: "And they're going to rename the "Jefferson Davis Highway" and are taking suggestions. One obvious one "Heather Heyer Highway" may be too tongue-twistery."

    Honouring Heather Heyer by renaming the Virginia portion of the route seems entirely fitting. Now, if they ever get around to the segment that runs through Alabama, I think we all know the answer:
    In Alabama, the segment of US 80 from Selma to Montgomery is the most famous part of the Jefferson Davis Memorial Highway today. On this road, the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., led the 1965 Voting Rights March that helped prompt Congress to pass the Voting Rights Act. This road also extends through eastern Montgomery and today is known as the Atlanta Highway, although interstate I-85 has replaced the route to Atlanta.
    posted by hangashore at 8:45 PM on August 20, 2017 [11 favorites]


    +1
    posted by mbo at 10:54 PM on August 20, 2017 [16 favorites]


    Jesus Christ, white people. Enough with the Heather Heyer hagiography. She seems like a thoroughly admirable person, and her death was awful, but it would be really wrong to elevate her over the many, many black civil rights martyrs who did a lot more for the cause, knowingly stared down violence, and don't have any highways named for them.
    posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:36 PM on August 20, 2017 [33 favorites]


    Heather Heyer died putting herself into the middle of a cause that we all agree with. She wasn't trying to be a martyr, but she died while putting her body out on the streets and making a stand against fascism and racism. I wore purple the other day and I think that she deserves to be remembered and honored.

    Roughly 4,000 black people have been lynched in the United States. Not a single one of those was less tragic than the death of Heather Heyer.

    People argue in the political threads about whether those abandoning their support for Trump should be welcomed for joining the resistance or shamed for taking way too goddamn long in the face of what was obvious the a bunch of us at least a couple of years ago and what were you people thinking? But I digress.

    I welcome white allies standing out against racism. The number of white people who were marching in the streets of Chancellorsville was incredibly moving, sometimes it's hard to tell if people are sincere. And then so many people came out for Boston. I hope what's going on right now leads to some frank and honest conversations in this country.

    But you can't look at (roughly) 4,001 deaths from white supremacy and put up a monument or rename a highway for the white lady.
    posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:27 AM on August 21, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Indeed. Heyer's cousin Diana Ratcliff has written a particularly self-aware op-ed for CNN: Racism will get worse unless we stop it now.
    We have never had to be afraid that someone would target us or lynch us because of the color of our skin. We never had to worry someone wouldn't hire us because of the way we look. We never have to worry that our children might become victims of someone else's prejudice. We've never been told we can't live in a certain neighborhood or attend a certain school because of the color of our skin. Until last week, we had no idea what it feels like to lose someone to hate....

    The moment [from the vigil] the moment that will forever be burnt in my memory was when a speaker asked the uncomfortable question. While she hailed Heather's courage, she asked something to this effect: "Why does a white woman have to get killed for you all to become outraged?" [...]

    If anyone other than white people had been marching the streets of Charlottesville wielding tiki torches, carrying semi-automatic rifles, chanting racist chants, engendering fear at a house of prayer, and menacing its residents, we'd call them terrorists.
    posted by dhartung at 12:31 AM on August 21, 2017 [25 favorites]


    UT-Austin taking down 4 Confederate statues on campus

    Sure, you say, but that's Austin. OK, but that's the second time Texas has taken down memorials to traitorous racist thugs in a week. Texas!
    posted by zombieflanders at 4:05 AM on August 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


    In terms of silver linings, it's hard to beat -

    Covfeferacy: Can't take down statues. History! Must respect the history!
    Fans Of Reality: History, you say? Would that be that of the traitorous racist slavers of the war, or the more recent racists of the propaganda arm of Club Jim Crow? Yes, let's respect history!
    Rest Of World: Oooh, we didn't know about them. How awful!

    That's the great thing about freedom of speech. You get to learn a lot.
    posted by Devonian at 4:37 AM on August 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


    To me a case - though this is not the position I take - for naming something after Heather Heyer would be to force a constant reminder that white supremacists terrorized a town and murdered a woman in 2017, right now, under a president who endorses white supremacy. In a sense, it would be the "Murder of Heather Heyer By White Supremacists in 2017" highway rather than the "Heather Heyer Memorial Highway".

    Kind of like renaming the airport after Reagan serves as a constant reminder of rightward American drift and just general Republican grossness as much as it does Reagan.

    But I agree that if the goal is to memorialize a person, there are more appropriate choices for something this large and enduring.
    posted by Frowner at 6:29 AM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Daughters of Confederacy ‘Reeling’ From Memorial Removals

    “I feel very hurt, like this is not my America.” Ms. Stahl said, choking back sobs as she recalled how she had to authorize having a truck haul the monument away to storage early Wednesday.

    And...

    Mrs. McCrobie said many members felt sadness and disbelief that about the deadly Charlottesville rally, where the scheduled removal of a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee touched off the initial demonstrations. They are also upset, she said, that white supremacists had latched on to the monument debate. “The UDC has nothing to do whatsoever with white supremacy,” she said.
    posted by Artw at 6:34 AM on August 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


    “The UDC has nothing to do whatsoever with white supremacy,”

    A Michael Jackson's nose of a falsification.
    posted by Talez at 6:39 AM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


    “I feel very hurt, like this is not my America.” Ms. Stahl said

    A lesson learned 152 years too late.
    posted by Etrigan at 6:53 AM on August 21, 2017 [15 favorites]


    (I love the idea of the Booker T. Washington Expressway, personally. Just rolls off the tongue.)
    posted by XtinaS at 7:05 AM on August 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Rather than Heather Heyer, I'd love it if they renamed the highway Mary Bowser Highway.

    For those unfamiliar with her, Mary Bowser was born in Virginia, enslaved at birth, and freed in 1850 when her owners became abolitionists. She went to school in Philadelphia and by all accounts was not only brilliant, but also had close to a photographic memory. She married a free black man four days before the Civil War started, and after the war got underway she returned to Virginia to spy on Jefferson Davis, risking re-enslavement, rape, torture, and murder.

    She got employed as servant in Jefferson Davis' home, pretended to be stupid, Davis never knew she could read, and as a result she was able to get access to all manner of vital information and pass it along to her contacts and get it out to the US government.

    Renaming a highway honoring Jefferson Davis to honor a black woman who deceived him, in large part due to his racist belief that black people were inherently stupid, and was vital in the war against his vile nation seems like the absolute best thing that could happen.

    BTW: if you see a photo claiming to be of Bowser, there's one floating around, it's been confirmed that it isn't actually of her. There are no known photos of Bowser.
    posted by sotonohito at 7:18 AM on August 21, 2017 [75 favorites]


    Oh dang, never mind, Mary Bowser Highway is perfect.
    posted by XtinaS at 7:21 AM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


    The UDC is the largest white supremacist and racist organization in the USA, and I hope every single one of their members feels ashamed at being part of it.

    We really need to start picketing their meetings. Get rid of the UDC and one of the most effective organizations promoting the Lost Cause myth and defending those vile statues they've erected vanishes.
    posted by sotonohito at 7:21 AM on August 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


    Narrator: most UDC members are not ashamed at being part of it.
    posted by Nelson at 8:03 AM on August 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


    I think it's appropriate to memorialize Heather Heyer here in Charlottesville, because this is something that happened here and it's affected us. A suggestion that seems to be gaining some traction locally is to permanently close the block of 4th St. SW where the attack happened. It's a one-way side street that crosses the downtown pedestrian mall and gets very little traffic. As things stand now, there's an impromptu memorial there, and the street is closed indefinitely. The city council could choose to close it permanently and put up bollards.

    I hope this isn't seen as a zero sum game between memorials. We can memorialize her death because she lived here and died here, and we want to remember. This doesn't prevent other people who deserve to be from being memorialized elsewhere, even elsewhere in Charlottesville. The city doesn't need statues of generals who never lived or fought here, and fought for a cause most of the city's current residents consider abhorent. Naming a section of interstate in another part of the state after her doesn't make much sense.


    And, sotonohito , I love that suggestion. The city of Alexandria is taking suggestions on renaming that stretch of highway. You should go there and suggest Mary Bowser Highway, with an explanation.
    posted by nangar at 8:05 AM on August 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


    I did that a few hours ago.

    Regrettably their suggestions page is being flooded with bots from white supremacists, some organized on /r/The_Donald, and as a result I bet they throw away all the suggestions.
    posted by sotonohito at 8:26 AM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Where would someone head over to Reddit and propose a counter-attack by writing more bots? Asking for a...friend.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:42 AM on August 21, 2017


    And, sotonohito , I love that suggestion. The city of Alexandria is taking suggestions on renaming that stretch of highway. You should go there and suggest Mary Bowser Highway, with an explanation.
    posted by nangar
    --
    I did that a few hours ago.

    Regrettably their suggestions page is being flooded with bots from white supremacists, some organized on /r/The_Donald, and as a result I bet they throw away all the suggestions.
    Let's make it a metafilter project to put together a proposal and get signatures. I'll go to the public meeting on the 25th and hand deliver it as needed.
    The Advisory Group will hold a public hearing on September 25, 2017, for those who wish provide feedback in person. The Advisory Group’s final meeting is expected to be held on October 5, at which a recommendation to the City Manager would be adopted. Both meetings will be held from 7 p.m. to 9 p.m., at a location to be determined. (Note that the public hearing previously scheduled for August 17 has been cancelled.)
    posted by phearlez at 9:45 AM on August 21, 2017 [14 favorites]


    That fat meme kid in the confederate uniform was kicked out of college for his troubles.
    posted by Talez at 12:48 PM on August 21, 2017 [13 favorites]


    Huh. They seem to have used a tweet by yours truly in Talez's link.
    posted by maxsparber at 12:50 PM on August 21, 2017 [14 favorites]


    How was the kid supposed to know a school called "Pensacola Christian" whose presence on the web is as white as the driven snow would boot him for suiting up for Johnny Reb? I hope somehow he manages to end up somewhere certified and likely to teach critical thinking, but he'll probably go straight to Liberty. Way to go, very Christlike.
    posted by Don Pepino at 1:02 PM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Pensacola Christian College? Isn't Pensacola home to a particularly awful fundy institution that forbids library visits and segregates the sexes? If that's the case, then he may have been gifted a life...

    And I know that taking the piss out of people's names is meh, but he does carry a handle straight from a Vonnegut novel - almost Amentrout, which is just perfect.
    posted by Devonian at 1:04 PM on August 21, 2017


    Notable alumni include a contestant on The Apprentice and a guy cited by the SPLC for involvement in a hate group. I think Pensacola Christian needs to take a look in their own eye; they fixin to knock somebody over with that bigass beam.
    posted by Don Pepino at 1:39 PM on August 21, 2017


    suiting up for Johnny Reb

    I wonder how many who do Civil War reenactments as Confederates are white supremacists playing out their wistful fantasies (until they lose the battle)?
    posted by jgirl at 1:47 PM on August 21, 2017


    Pensacola Christian is the subject of one of my top 10 most popular blog posts ever. This stupid throwaway post still gets search hits every week from people searching on "ocular intercourse."
    posted by COD at 1:52 PM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


    //but he'll probably go straight to Liberty//


    I know somebody that was kicked out of PCC. He went straight to Liberty.
    posted by COD at 1:53 PM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I wonder how many who do Civil War reenactments as Confederates are white supremacists playing out their wistful fantasies (until they lose the battle)?

    A friend of mine is a Confederate reenactor. He's a good guy, but he's said that other people he's met... aren't so good.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 1:55 PM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Yeah, a fair amount of white re-enactors - of almost every war era, but especially civil war - are motivated by white supremacy (aka "heritage"). A great read that touches on this topic (along with other forms of remembrance) is Tony Horwitz' Confederates in the Attic.
    posted by Miko at 2:02 PM on August 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Well, if Civil War LARPing fell out of favor, I think that would be a great move forward for the USA.
    posted by yesster at 2:05 PM on August 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Just found out The National Front marched in my old home town this weekend. Very depressing - though there was a counter-protest and a massive ruck ensued. It's not the first time either (the local Muslim association wants to build a community center)
    posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:12 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I know some English Civil War reneactors and they basically seem to be drunken lunatics but one said that there's problems with other eras and I was shocked, watching a documentary, that there are British re-enactors who dress up as WWII nazi SS troops and take it v seriously.
    posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:23 PM on August 21, 2017


    (Civil War LARPing remains one of the weirder activities out there, and I know some really weird shit.)
    posted by XtinaS at 2:23 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Well, if Civil War LARPing fell out of favor, I think that would be a great move forward for the USA.


    I've always liked George Carlin's suggestion: USE REAL BULLETS.

    Implicit in his suggestion was that they limit this to each other, on the (fake) battlefield. But perhaps we need to be more specific with these clowns in 2017.
    posted by phearlez at 2:23 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I get it, now, thanks to COD. They're not hypocrites, they don't care that he's a confederate, they got him on a sex charge. That's why he's looking away from the doublebirdie damsel so hard, he's desperately trying to avoid ocular intercourse. But it's like with the eclipse: not even a glance is okay!

    http://www.chronicle.com/article/A-College-Thats-Strictly/25308
    Please, please, please, let it turn out that this bullshit "school" has fired a miniball into its foot with this shit, please, please, please.
    posted by Don Pepino at 2:31 PM on August 21, 2017


    (Civil War LARPing remains one of the weirder activities out there, and I know some really weird shit.)

    until you meet the WWII LARPers and yeah, those all seem to be neo-Nazis

    Meanwhile: What Happened When One Civil War Historian Commented on Her Area Of Expertise? (spoiler alert: mysoginistic trolls swarm)
    posted by TwoStride at 4:33 PM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I've heard the same thing about civil war reenactors. And my husband is a historical wargamer (with miniatures--he specializes in ancient Europe and Asia) and he reports that going to those conventions has gotten increasingly uncomfortable as the other gamers feel freer to publically peel back the layers of just what exactly they are fantasizing about.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 5:07 PM on August 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Sad and terrifying: I Lost My Son to the Alt-Right Movement
    posted by Joe in Australia at 5:44 PM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Thanks, COD - your blog post reference to A Beka Books confirmed that this was the place I was thinking of. I can't remember how exactly I ended up researching it some time ago - there was a connection to the Dover intelligent design court case - but it sounded like an absolute travesty of education mixed with an absolute travesty of religion. There is (or was) an independent online forum for ex-students of the place that's a real insight into the psychology of institutionalised abuse of young people. Very sad, and very angering.

    Taliban madrasa? Not that different.

    All of which convinced me, not that I needed much convincing, that until you fix education you cannot fix anything else. If the taps are pouring out broken people, you can't wash anything clean.
    posted by Devonian at 5:56 PM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


    IIRC in the video accompanying an FPP a few years ago, wherein a Vice Media guy participates in a Vietnam War re-enactment by playing the part of a war journalist, one of the re-enactors says something like "you have to say racist stuff, otherwise it wouldn't be historically accurate."
    posted by XMLicious at 6:02 PM on August 21, 2017


    On Alexandria re-naming Jefferson Davis highway, John Scalzi has suggested Mildred and Richard Loving Highway.

    Succinctly put by dailyKos user Tamar:
    "...named for the massively important case Loving v Virginia in which the laws against interracial marriage were declared unconstitutional.

    Not only is it a Virginia case, and involves two wonderful people, but also the name shortens perfectly into Loving Highway, which works well with the Love Trumps Hate motto."
    posted by darkstar at 6:12 PM on August 21, 2017 [18 favorites]


    I grew up attending a fundamentalist Christian school and we had Beka Books. I mostly remember the history books because that was my favorite subject and my obsession. There were lots of anti-socialist diatribes. And the Victorian era was pronounced the best era ever. Unrestricted capitalism and highly restricted sexuality was a great combination. The cruelties of labor exploitation and colonialism were nothing which would bother God. Even at age 12 with my cursory knowledge of how the British Empire was run, knew this was absolute crap.

    I don't remember the science books as clearly, but do remember one passage which went into detail about how Noah's Great Flood might have formed the Grand Canyon.

    I don't entirely regret the experience. The books and the Christian school did wonders for teaching us critical thinking at a young age, because many of us quickly learned it was all bullshit.

    As I'm cleaning out my mom's old house, I'm running into a few of the old Beka Books. Tempting to scan in the history book at some point for posterity.
    posted by honestcoyote at 6:15 PM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


    I really don't remember this sort of brazen antisemitic display being so common in the US: Oregon highway overpasses eclipsed by anti-Semitic banners
    posted by Joe in Australia at 9:30 PM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I haven't seen any overtly anti-Semitic displays around my town, but there was a billboard up for at least a couple of decades in my area that said some nasty things about the Native Americans living on the reservation behind the billboard. So these types of displays seem to be generally tolerated. (Note that the Nation maligned on this billboard is one of the largest employers of non-Natives in our area.) I haven't been near there recently, so I'm not sure if it's been updated to reflect Cuomo's stance on Native Americans.
    posted by xyzzy at 12:50 AM on August 22, 2017


    Jon Cooper: BREAKING: After alt-right organizers saw huge counter-protests in Boston, they've canceled 67 "America First Rallies" scheduled in 36 states
    posted by octothorpe at 3:47 AM on August 22, 2017 [8 favorites]


    After alt-right organizers saw huge counter-protests in Boston, they've canceled 67 "America First Rallies" scheduled in 36 states

    "Free speech curtailed by violent leftists"
    posted by uncleozzy at 4:30 AM on August 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Today may demonstrate that the only "safe places" for alt-right rallies are where Trump is speaking... and then it could get (1)weird (2)scary (3)comical (4)creepy ...
    posted by oneswellfoop at 5:16 AM on August 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Does anyone have some good links rebutting the notion that the confederate memorial issue is "a distraction?" My white-lady-liberal-bubble-o-sphere is just hopping with complaints that this discussion is "distracting" from their more important legislative goals. I disagree, but haven't seen anything good addressing that head-on yet. There's plenty about why taking down statues matters, but I need to tackle this "distraction" notion more specifically. If you run across anything to post here or MeMail, I'm appreciative. Thanks!
    posted by Miko at 7:33 AM on August 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


    If it's white folks complaining, I might consider just sending them a link to an article about concern trolling.

    Karen L. Cox, Professor of History at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, wrote a good piece called Why Confederate Monuments Must Fall.

    Here's an AP article on black leaders in Arizona pushing for Confederate Monuments to come down; I generally think if the people affected by something think it's important, it's important.

    My old colleague Eric Black wrote a piece about Trump's claims the the monuments are a distraction. It's a good piece, and it's also worth noting that if you're parroting Trump's talking points, you might want to sit down and think about what the hell is going on in your life.
    posted by maxsparber at 7:51 AM on August 22, 2017 [13 favorites]


    My white-lady-liberal-bubble-o-sphere is just hopping with complaints that this discussion is "distracting" from their more important legislative goals.

    Yeah, there's been way too much of that in some quarters I've seen.

    I'm not really sure what to do about it. I've made some stabs at just asking, "What if the people directly effected by racial injustice don't actually feel this is a distraction?" I saw that one eventually lead to some growth in a couple people because the answer is either going to be "Yeah, actually, I can't claim to care about racial injustice if I don't trust people of color to advocate for their own needs based on their own lived experience" or it's going to be something paternalistic and more obviously racist than whatever weaksauce "it's a distraction!" statements started the conversation. Either way, someone's going to learn something.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 7:57 AM on August 22, 2017 [9 favorites]


    From the Cox piece: White supremacists aren’t the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down.

    I wish people would stop thinking or implying that Trump is not a white supremacist.
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:01 AM on August 22, 2017 [21 favorites]


    A distraction? Whom did it distract? Trump. It got him to look up from his teleprompter and spend fifteen minutes proving himself unfit to be president by whoring for the kkk and nazis on national television. Whereas it seems to have focused everyone else pretty effectively on the "current president is unfit for office" problem, the primary problem afflicting the country. It also sped up the liberation of Bannon, who is now free to whiskeypiss inside the Trumptent. It also outed the "altright" as the sociopathic horde they are. I am really not seeing a downside. If it were a distraction beneficial to the administration, they'd be blowing on the flames, not zooming off to do a nonsense "look over there!" presser about Afghanistan.
    posted by Don Pepino at 8:02 AM on August 22, 2017 [6 favorites]


    My white-lady-liberal-bubble-o-sphere is just hopping with complaints that this discussion is "distracting" from their more important legislative goals.

    Would it help to draw on the resources earlier in this thread proving that these Confederate statues are more recent than people may think they are and that they exist as a result of a specific and deliberate propaganda and intimidation effort by the UDC? I mean, I could see white liberals wondering what the fuss is about 150-year old statues, then changing their minds when they're clued in that the existence of the statues is an active attempt to whitewash (literally) history and threaten black people.
    posted by soundguy99 at 9:51 AM on August 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Would it help to draw on the resources earlier in this thread proving that these Confederate statues are more recent than people may think they are and that they exist as a result of a specific and deliberate propaganda and intimidation effort by the UDC?

    Well, I already have (I posted a lot of those resources myself). The thing I'm trying to work with is not that the monuments are bad (everyone agrees) or white supremacist (everyone agrees) but that it's an important issue right now as compared to electoral issues and other concurrent campaigns - not a "distraction" from the "real work" of the left. So I'm looking for resources in which people other than me make the argument that there's room for all issues and to insist that yours are more important than the next person's is pure privilege in action.
    posted by Miko at 10:18 AM on August 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I mean, I know I'm a broken record on this and all, but we're all clear here that "George Soros" is just a stand-in for "An International Conspiracy of Rich Jews" in the right-wing's paranoid fantasies, right?

    Also, Nazis hate palindromes. Everyone must decide for themselves how they want to respond to that fact.
    posted by msalt at 10:19 AM on August 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I really don't remember this sort of brazen antisemitic display being so common in the US: Oregon highway overpasses eclipsed by anti-Semitic banners

    This isn't common in the US or in Oregon. This incident, as well as a June incident also referenced in that article, are the work of a single 64-year old antisemite named Jimmy Marr.

    In both cases, the state highway department sent someone out to remove them within a couple of hours and found that citizens had already taken them down.
    posted by msalt at 10:27 AM on August 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Also, Nazis hate palindromes. Everyone must decide for themselves how they want to respond to that fact.

    I go back and forth on it.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 10:28 AM on August 22, 2017 [12 favorites]


    Texas man charged with trying to bomb a Confederate statue in Houston. He's had previous convictions for explosives crimes. Houston had an ugly incident where a false story about removing statues reported in the Houston Chronicle led to an armed demonstration.
    posted by Nelson at 10:30 AM on August 22, 2017


    I really don't remember this sort of brazen antisemitic display being so common in the US

    I don't think I've ever gone a year in my life without someone in my state painting a swastika on a synagogue, or the equivalent.
    posted by Miko at 10:30 AM on August 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


    My white-lady-liberal-bubble-o-sphere is just hopping with complaints that this discussion is "distracting" from their more important legislative goals.

    My usual responses to such:

    "Well clearly it's not working since you still noticed both, right?"

    though sometimes I have to address the implication too:

    "You're not claiming that you're smart enough to notice both but all the rest of us are too dumb to be stay aware of more than one thing at a time, are you?" Narrator voice: they are.

    "Calling things that other people care about - particularly people of color - a distraction is insulting to their concerns and insulting to all of our ability to care about and work towards more than one thing at a time."

    "If you are concerned that people aren't staying aware of other priorities because of this one you should absolutely go devote your energy to those other things, rather than distracting yourself from that important goal by engaging in discussion about the relative importance of different injustices."
    posted by phearlez at 10:36 AM on August 22, 2017 [20 favorites]


    That. We don't -- indeed, we can't all be permanently outraged about all the outrageous things that are happening.

    We can, however, each find one or several issues that we connect on strongly and then work on those issues with other people. For me that ends up being LGBT health access issues & theological pushback on white supremacy in the Church. That doesn't mean I have to shit on someone who is working on environmental defense or education or whatever.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 10:43 AM on August 22, 2017 [6 favorites]


    The thing I'm trying to work with is not that the monuments are bad (everyone agrees) or white supremacist (everyone agrees) but that it's an important issue right now as compared to electoral issues and other concurrent campaigns - not a "distraction" from the "real work" of the left.

    Aaaaaaagh.

    I always ask them to define the "real work." Once they mention equality of economic opportunity or fairness or wealth redistribution or literally anything at all, I point out that those goals can only be realized if we also address systemic racism, otherwise you're just advocating for a better deal for white people, which is itself racist. IOW, these goals aren't separable.

    (This argument in particular is also applicable to "progressives" who think women's bodily autonomy is negotiable or a "distraction," which is where I most commonly have to deploy it.)

    People usually get super defensive at first (nobody likes to realize they've been an asshole), but many come around later.
    posted by schadenfrau at 10:54 AM on August 22, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Well they're shitting on it because they think it's so unimportant that they begrudge that anyone would choose to pay attention to it and possibly work on it rather than their personal cause. It's an ugly combination of elitism/arrogance and zero-sum thinking. The first is self-explanatory. The second is just stupid and counter-productive.

    Engaged people are more likely to engage in other things. They may have finite time to show up and volunteer/protest/whatever but they likely have an effectively infinite amount of time to read and share other times on social media or tell their friends about this other thing they heard about. They may have money to donate to it too. To discourage them from caring about justice causes because it's not your personal justice cause is a net negative. It almost certainly will run off more people than it brings to you. Encouraging and calling out instead helps everyone.

    "For me to win someone else has to lose" is sadly not a personal belief limited to racists.
    posted by phearlez at 10:57 AM on August 22, 2017 [4 favorites]


    The thing that makes me wonder "why now?" about Confederate statues is the fact that it was a total non-issue during the administration of America's First African-American President. Then I remembered that Obama's father was African-African and his mother was white so he had no family connection to the Slavery Experience in America. But then, his wife definitely did.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 12:13 PM on August 22, 2017


    The "why now", I think, is that a critical mass of white moderates are finally acknowledging that racism isn't over and are (for the moment) taking POCs' lead on opposing these symbols of white supremacy.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 12:19 PM on August 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Also, Nazis hate palindromes. Everyone must decide for themselves how they want to respond to that fact.

    I go back and forth on it.



    Oh, you.

    *clicks favorite*
    posted by darkstar at 12:23 PM on August 22, 2017 [4 favorites]




    I think there's also the simple issue of a feeling of urgency. When there's a perception that things are better, or improving, it's easier for folks to let what that perceive as "small stuff" slide. And, related to what I said before, people who are active are predisposed to continue to be active. Folks feeling distressed over the state of the country are more prepared to stand up and be a part of an issue than ones who don't have that sense of imminence.
    posted by phearlez at 1:14 PM on August 22, 2017 [7 favorites]


    The thing that makes me wonder "why now?" about Confederate statues is the fact that it was a total non-issue during the administration of America's First African-American President.

    Uh, dude. Most white people took the existence of a black president as proof racism was over. If someone pointed out the existence of statues and memorials celebrating the Confederacy as a example of the persistence of racism, white people pointed at the black guy in office and said "it can't be that bad!" Remember how public opinion of Obama--specifically whte public opinion--cratered after he said Trayvon Martin could have been his son? White people didn't want to have a conversation about race, and Obama's existence made them think it wasn't needed.

    The reason Charleston provoked the response it did was because it shocked a bunch of white people and highlighted that whoops, violent white nationalists were still around. Maybe racism wasn't over.

    And the reason you've seen another, bigger outpouring of white people thinking about race now is because the Trump era has been an even louder wake-up call. Many, many white people have been genuinely shocked at the number of people endorsing Trump's views and the growing presence of neo-Nazis and white nationalists in the public arena. Much like the scenes of police abuse of activists in the First Civil Rights movement, the visuals of a torch-wielding mob screaming "Jews will not replace us" acts as stark, undeniable proof of violent undercurrents within this country that most white people previously believed no longer existed.
    posted by Anonymous at 1:32 PM on August 22, 2017


    I feel like the "why now" question has the same answer as to the "why now" about the Washington DC racist football team name. It only feels like "now" because people are only now starting to pay attention. Groups that have been hurt by both the statues and the team name have been fighting against them for a very long time.
    posted by LizBoBiz at 1:33 PM on August 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Mod note: We do not need a football team derail, thanks.
    posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:27 PM on August 22, 2017 [8 favorites]


    How Charlottesville is coping, one week later, Dahlia Lithwick, Slate.

    I live in Charlottesville, so does Lithwick. She does a good job of describing what it's been like for people that live here.
    posted by nangar at 6:27 AM on August 23, 2017 [8 favorites]


    I'm now prepared for awkward interchangeswith every self-described liberal white woman in my town. I got called "the extreme far left" for speaking up about allying with people whose core issue is racial justice, and lectured on how "identity politics are going to take down this party." Another day in the ville.
    posted by Miko at 9:05 AM on August 23, 2017 [17 favorites]


    Sophie Ellman-Golan (one of the national organizers of the Women’s March), Forward: Worried About Anti-Semitism? Practice The Tolerance You Preach.
    […] there is no shortage of think pieces these days — many from Jews — accusing the left of divisiveness and hate. Bari Weiss’ “When Progressives Embrace Hate” and Ann Lewis’ “I Did Not March for Hate” are two of the latest examples of white Jewish leaders employing the same talking points the white nationalist movement uses to attack Palestinian Muslims and Black people.

    […]

    Sarsour, Mallory, Perez and I do not always agree on every single issue or feel the same way about every single individual. Sometimes we say things that cause each other pain. It is painful for me to engage when people like Louis Farrakhan perpetuate the same narrative of “satanic global Jewry” that Nazis do. It is painful for Sarsour, Mallory, and Perez to engage when right-wing Jews use their large platforms to paint them as violent anti-Semites. But we trust and respect each other — and we have faith in our shared dedication to justice and liberation. We are committed to these discussions despite our discomfort and tears. We are able to challenge and learn from each other. We have decided to be brave and vulnerable together, to say the things we are afraid to say because we know that we will not allow them to fracture our relationships or our movement.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:33 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]


    To attempt to clarify something which is confusing me, “When Progressives Embrace Hate” devotes a fair amount of text to criticizing Farrakhan and his anti-Semitism and other racist views, and consequently to criticizing Mallory and Perez for associating themselves with him. So I guess the bit about him in the second quoted paragraph above is Ellman-Golan confirming that association exists and saying it's painful to her, and thus apparently agreeing with that part of Weiss' analysis? But still faulting Weiss for expressing the criticism while being too right-wing and on too large a platform?
    posted by XMLicious at 5:58 PM on August 23, 2017


    It sounds like she's saying that because the right-wing Nazis' anti-semitism is far more violent, Jews should shut up about Farrakhan and other anti-semites on the left because if we don't stand side by side with them on racial justice no matter what views they hold of us, we don't deserve allyship.

    It really sounds to me like a leftist version of "you claim to be so tolerant, so why can't you tolerate my opinion?" The double standard is appalling. No one will admit they have a problem.
    posted by Mchelly at 8:16 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Funnily enough, I've been pushing back on another message board where some posters argue that Trump's response to Charlottesville was measured and appropriate because the real threat is from the left. Their position is basically that the Twitler Youth are small and theatrical and not generally tolerated and therefore not a serious concern. In contrast, they say, antisemitism masquerading as anti-Zionism is endemic on the Left and is not seriously criticised. It's frustrating, because even though I think they're crazy to be overlooking literal fscking Nazis their critique of left-wing antisemitism is well founded.
    posted by Joe in Australia at 8:53 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I assumed, based on this bit from graf three, that she's saying that it's necessary to put up with some shit as a matter of triage.

    I also believe that while anti-Semitism is invisibly systemic, in this current moment it is nowhere near as deadly to white Jews as anti-Black racism is to Black people, Islamophobia is to Muslims or the deportation of immigrants is to undocumented people.

    later there's

    It is for this very reason that Jews need to be central to — but not centered in — the fight to eradicate white supremacy.

    But that's really not 'tolerance,' it's prioritizing threats or advocating for wartime alliances. There's also a bit in there about jewish absence from black justice causes which I think it meant to be a little read-between-the-lines sort of we haven't been a part of this when we should be so we have work to do before we are going to have better understanding.

    So I'd say this is less "then we don't deserve allyship" than it is an advocation for pragmatism, both from a moral and self-interest position. Which would do a lot better framed that way rather than playing along with so much for the tolerant left bullshit.
    posted by phearlez at 10:38 PM on August 23, 2017


    Phearlez, David Schraub has a draft paper up on academia.edu that is one of the most insightful things on antisemitism I've ever read. It's very much not a "so much for the tolerant Left" exercise, but one of the things it does is show how antisemitic attitudes can persist even among people who are genuinely trying to oppose oppression.
    posted by Joe in Australia at 2:08 AM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]




    Quite frankly, and this is not easily known, Abraham Lincoln in his private writings said some things that were pretty doggone racist.

    Yeah, and then he wrote the motherfucking Emancipation Proclamation.

    W.E.B. DuBois, Abraham Lincoln
    Abraham Lincoln was a Southern poor white, of illegitimate birth, poorly educated and unusually ugly, awkward, ill-dressed. He liked smutty stories and was a politician down to his toes. Aristocrats—Jeff Davis, Seward and their ilk—despised him, and indeed he had little outwardly that compelled respect. But in that curious human way he was big inside. He had reserves and depths and when habit and convention were torn away there was something left to Lincoln—nothing to most of his contemners. There was something left, so that at the crisis he was big enough to be inconsistent—cruel, merciful; peace-loving, a fighter; despising Negroes and letting them fight and vote; protecting slavery and freeing slaves. He was a man—a big, inconsistent, brave man.
    Again, Lincoln
    ...I love him not because he was perfect but because he was not and yet triumphed. The world is full of illegitimate children. The world is full of folk whose taste was educated in the gutter. The world is full of people born hating and despising their fellows. To these I love to say: See this man. He was one of you and yet he became Abraham Lincoln.
    posted by kirkaracha at 11:07 AM on August 24, 2017 [42 favorites]




    Culpable scumball.
    posted by Artw at 2:01 PM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]


    That's a paddlin'.
    posted by rhizome at 2:26 PM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]


    From TPM:

    Russell Walker files lawsuit in York, SC to force courthouse to display Confederate flag again.

    His 45 second explanation of why it's necessary is an eloquent statement on how it's totally not a racist issue.

    (Note: video linked in the article contains racial slur, which should tell you everything.)
    posted by darkstar at 10:38 PM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Well, there you have it! Totally not racist. He just hates Martin Luther King, habitually refers to him with a racist slur, and doesn't believe in the cause MLK worked for. But he's not *RACIST* and it'd be horrible for anyone to think so.

    I am curious, was he merely lying, or does he have one of those far right wing "racism means someone who is both a member of the KKK and has participated in at least three lynchings" definitions (which also seems more like a lie than an idiosyncratic definition to me), or what?

    If he's merely lying that's not all that interesting or worth talking about. But I do wonder how he'd define racism and racist if someone asked him. I don't wonder much, he's obviously scum and an enemy, but I do wonder a bit.
    posted by sotonohito at 6:05 AM on August 25, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Phearlez, David Schraub has a draft paper up on academia.edu that is one of the most insightful things on antisemitism I've ever read.

    I'd be curious to see that but academia.com won't let me authenticate unless I let them have access to my contacts. Yeah, no, build your mailing list somewhere else folks. I'll look into creating an account with my email address later.
    posted by phearlez at 8:37 AM on August 25, 2017 [2 favorites]


    “Skin in the Game: How Antisemitism Animates White Nationalism,” Eric K. Ward, The Public Eye, 19 June 2017
    posted by ob1quixote at 11:21 AM on August 25, 2017 [2 favorites]


    From that article, on the “The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion”:
    In 1920, Henry Ford brought the “Protocols” to the United States, printing half a million copies of an adaptation called “The International Jew,” and the text has had a presence in American life ever since. (Walmart stocked copies on its shelves and for a time refused calls to take them down—in 2004.)
    Here's the SPLC on the latter 2004 incident, but Walmart would appear to have changed their policies, as Google searches show many different editions of the “Protocols” and “The International Jew” for sale on their web site.
    posted by XMLicious at 12:26 PM on August 25, 2017 [2 favorites]


    A comic that eschews direct references to politics has a near-perfect insight to the Confederate Statue controversy.
    Wrong Hands: monument to incompetence
    posted by oneswellfoop at 12:41 PM on August 25, 2017


    Just in case it hasn't been mentioned, Deray McKesson did a bonus episode of his podcast devoted to the events in Charlottesville. He talks to some local student organizers, and also the governor of Virginia. IDK how to directly link it so just go here and scroll down to the "BONUS POD". And half of the next one is also devoted to this topic.

    There's a story from one of the students that I hadn't heard - he says that, after the rally was dispersed at 12:30 but before the car attack, there were rumors that Nazis were marching outside a nearby black neighborhood called Friendship Court. I've been trying to find some news story verifying that and all I can find are more firsthand accounts of hearing the rumors and arriving there "after the Nazis were gone". (One from Vox, one from the New Yorker.) So that makes three separate accounts of the rumors but no accounts of the Nazis actually being there.

    The reason I'm looking for verification is because of the sentiment expressed by people like Tina Fey - "Don't show up, guys. Let these [Nazis] scream into the void." And I'd like to make the point that these guys went looking for targets to do violence on. So if anyone has stories to that effect, please share links!
    posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 2:12 PM on August 25, 2017 [2 favorites]


    RainboVagrabt, somewhere upthread is a piece about the Charlottesville Jewish community that talks about the rumors and threats of nazis attacking synagogues.
    posted by Miko at 8:06 PM on August 25, 2017


    I've seen several mentions on twitter and in news articles from religious leaders outside of synagogues and black protestors that there were places where the police didn't intercede with the violence and Antifa actually saved some people - peaceful protectors of a synagogue in one case - from being beaten. I'm more inclined to believe it than not; the fact that the Charlottesville PD doesn't protect the local synagogues despite the constant threats they get is damning in and of itself.
    posted by Deoridhe at 8:18 PM on August 25, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Oh FFS, they're crawling out of the woodwork now:

    Michael Miller, WaPo: 'Shocking’: Neo-Nazis fly swastika, salute at Virginia shopping center where leader was killed
    [The group's leader] said that Rockwell’s racist legacy is more alive now than ever.

    “We’re very encouraged generally about the mood of the country,” he said. “We think things are moving towards radicalization and polarization. I know a lot of people think polarization is a bad thing, but we don’t. The more racial polarization, the better.”
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:19 AM on August 26, 2017


    That nazi was shot by another nazi, so that's good at least.
    posted by Artw at 7:57 AM on August 26, 2017


    Michael Miller, WaPo: 'Shocking’: Neo-Nazis fly swastika, salute at Virginia shopping center where leader was killed

    in a shocking doctrinal shift from trump, these nazis wear ties that are too short
    posted by entropicamericana at 8:04 AM on August 26, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Joy Reid just amplified #EmptyThePews on Twitter. The source is Christopher Stroop: If You Attend a Trumpist Church, it’s Time to Leave in Protest
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:13 AM on August 26, 2017 [6 favorites]


    In today's episode of "Who Told The Truth?":

    A year ago yesterday the Clinton campaign released an ad tying Trump to racists. This was the Trump campaign's response:
    "Hillary Clinton and her campaign went to a disgusting new low today as they released a video tying the Trump Campaign with horrific racial images. This type of rhetoric and repulsive advertising is revolting and completely beyond the pale. I call on Hillary Clinton to disavow this video and her campaign for this sickening act that has no place in our world."
    Who told the truth? You have thirty seconds to write down your answers.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:23 AM on August 26, 2017 [12 favorites]


    My plan is to teach the neo Nazis how to properly use the sovereign citizen defense against the court system if arrested.
    posted by benzenedream at 9:08 AM on August 26, 2017 [6 favorites]


    I don't know, that shit might actually work now.
    posted by Artw at 9:13 AM on August 26, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Damn, that Empty the Pews link is--shit. I think that merits its own discussion.
    posted by sciatrix at 9:16 AM on August 26, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Feel free to post it, sciatrix.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 2:42 PM on August 26, 2017 [1 favorite]


    #EmptyThePews FPP
    posted by XMLicious at 3:01 PM on August 26, 2017 [5 favorites]


    Well, then.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:42 PM on August 26, 2017


    ;) <3
    posted by sciatrix at 4:03 PM on August 26, 2017 [1 favorite]


    If he's merely lying that's not all that interesting or worth talking about. But I do wonder how he'd define racism and racist if someone asked him. I don't wonder much, he's obviously scum and an enemy, but I do wonder a bit.
    Not that I think there's a way to prove it one way or the other but if there was I would be willing to wager a cake that a person like that is probably highly invested in the "actually, liberals are the real racists" nonsense..

    (in case I'm not being clear: it's is in no way nonsense to believe that liberals can be racist but there is a common counterfactual belief among many on the right that their own beliefs are color-blind even when those beliefs lead to consistently racially unequal outcomes.)
    posted by Nerd of the North at 1:11 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]






    dailystormer.com is still on client hold by Google nearly two weeks later. Given how hard they've been working to try to find some new domain name and hosting I have to think that's not at the client's request. Google still has made no statement about the status of the domain name.

    That article about Violent alt-Right Chats got my attention because of the role of Discord, a social media / chat application mostly used by gamers. I use it myself, it's good! And I know the company a little bit, they're good people and have zero interest in helping Nazis. They did cancel the Nazi Discord group right after the Charlottesville protests and murder.

    But back in January there were reports that Discord was being used by alt-right groups and I fear the company didn't do enough then to root them out. To me it's a cautionary tale about how important it is to manage online communities and have clear, enforced standards of conduct.
    posted by Nelson at 7:19 AM on August 29, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Neo-Nazis and Three Percent Militia unite to terrorize small Ohio town.
    In the hour before dawn on August 28 a college student found the first flier while on their morning jog. It was wheat pasted to a stop sign. Every stop sign on their route had one or more flyers from two different neo-nazi groups. A few blocks away, a professor went for their morning coffee and noticed a pickup truck with prominent stickers for a so-called 3% militia group called the “West Ohio Minuteman” idling in a parking lot downtown.
    posted by adamvasco at 3:15 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]


    It appears that that coverage of the vandalism in Yellow Springs, Ohio, is a bit sensationalized (to put it very, very kindly). The article in the town's own local newspaper reports 5 signs defaced and says Antioch College security actually contacted the militia group whose truck was spotted on the campus and the group's spokesperson officially disavowed any involvement. The only other mention of the event I could find was this in the Dayton Daily News and it's focused more on the retaliatory anti-discrimination vandalism, including someone spraypainting over the street signs for "Whiteman St." The militia group isn't even mentioned.
    posted by MoTLD at 3:37 PM on September 4, 2017 [1 favorite]


    « Older The 1519 types of humans according to Twitter   |   Lace faces, lace places, lace fireplaces; you know... Newer »


    This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments