Is Trauma Genetic?
August 13, 2017 11:37 AM Subscribe
People who have been subject to repeated, centuries-long violence, such as African Americans and Native Americans, may by now have disadvantage baked into their very molecules. The sociologist Robert Merton spoke of the “Matthew Effect,” named after verse 25:29 of the Book of Matthew: “For unto every one that hath shall be given ... but from him that hath not shall be taken.” Billie Holiday put it even better: “Them that’s got shall have; them that’s not shall lose.”
But daunting as this research is to contemplate, it is also exciting. It could help solve one of the enduring mysteries of human inheritance: Why do some falter and others thrive? Why do some children reap the whirlwind, while other children don’t? If the intergenerational transmission of trauma can help scientists understand the mechanics of risk and resilience, they may be able to offer hope not just for individuals but also for entire communities as they struggle to cast off the shadow of the past.
But daunting as this research is to contemplate, it is also exciting. It could help solve one of the enduring mysteries of human inheritance: Why do some falter and others thrive? Why do some children reap the whirlwind, while other children don’t? If the intergenerational transmission of trauma can help scientists understand the mechanics of risk and resilience, they may be able to offer hope not just for individuals but also for entire communities as they struggle to cast off the shadow of the past.
I worry what the white supremacists will do with this. "Here's the biological reason why minorities fail, and there's nothing we can do about it, so we might as well shut down all diversity programs." They'll probably think of a different Bible verse: "He punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation."
posted by clawsoon at 12:38 PM on August 13, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 12:38 PM on August 13, 2017 [18 favorites]
(Normally I wouldn't worry about that, but given the past few days...)
posted by clawsoon at 12:39 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 12:39 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
Always assumed she was paraphrasing Luke 8:18: "Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them.”
posted by dobbs at 12:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by dobbs at 12:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
It IS Lamarckian. If those studies are reproducible, then the Bell Curve people will finally have an in to actual science. The creeps like James Damore will have a field day with this. it will be a massive argument against affirmative action.
At least the results of the Holocaust Survivor study are being questioned, due to small sample size and ambiguous results. But the pop science press has run with it. It's only a matter of time before some self-appointed authority on genetics points to it and says "Well, this is why Africa Americans do so poorly in academics and technical careers. Let's channe these genetically damaged people into less intellectual careers."
posted by happyroach at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
At least the results of the Holocaust Survivor study are being questioned, due to small sample size and ambiguous results. But the pop science press has run with it. It's only a matter of time before some self-appointed authority on genetics points to it and says "Well, this is why Africa Americans do so poorly in academics and technical careers. Let's channe these genetically damaged people into less intellectual careers."
posted by happyroach at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
They kind of bury the lede. Apparently, it's not something genetic that's causing the trauma, it's being raised by people who've suffered trauma and carry it on through parenting that appears to be causing the trauma.
posted by Sphinx at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2017 [33 favorites]
posted by Sphinx at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2017 [33 favorites]
(Normally I wouldn't worry about that, but given the past few days...)
considering racists have been using pseudo-science and cherry-picking proper research to advance their own agenda since both became things, whatever the fuck happened this weekend shouldn't make any difference in thinking the racists won't absolutely take the chance to have G. Douché, PhD on Fox saying "black people aren't persecuted in America in the 21st century, there are studies supporting the idea they are born conditioned to think they are" when the situation asks for it.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:13 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
considering racists have been using pseudo-science and cherry-picking proper research to advance their own agenda since both became things, whatever the fuck happened this weekend shouldn't make any difference in thinking the racists won't absolutely take the chance to have G. Douché, PhD on Fox saying "black people aren't persecuted in America in the 21st century, there are studies supporting the idea they are born conditioned to think they are" when the situation asks for it.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:13 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
Learning about epigentics was kind of like losing my religion for me. When my fiance first introduced me to the concept, I rejected it as a silly, reactive conception of evolution like I had as a child. It was like when I lost God: I thought I could no longer understand morality at first, then I realized that morality had just become more nuanced and deliberate.
In a similar way, I had spent so much time thinking about the difference between biological evolution verses memetic evolution. In terms of the difference in time scale, in terms of passive verse reactive. Genes evolved soooo slowly over many generations while culture could evolve within generations. it was jarring to consider that genes could change within a generation IN RESPONSE TO STIMULUS, dynamically just like memes. Genetic aspects might become prevalent without sexual selection! This idea practically made my mind recoil.
Now, I just think it's fascinating, if still poorly understood. If we were to get a handle on it scientifically, there are some really cool possibilities. But like losing God didn't destroy morality for me, the addition of epigentics hasn't shook the way I view genetic and memetic evolution to the core just yet.
posted by es_de_bah at 1:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [10 favorites]
In a similar way, I had spent so much time thinking about the difference between biological evolution verses memetic evolution. In terms of the difference in time scale, in terms of passive verse reactive. Genes evolved soooo slowly over many generations while culture could evolve within generations. it was jarring to consider that genes could change within a generation IN RESPONSE TO STIMULUS, dynamically just like memes. Genetic aspects might become prevalent without sexual selection! This idea practically made my mind recoil.
Now, I just think it's fascinating, if still poorly understood. If we were to get a handle on it scientifically, there are some really cool possibilities. But like losing God didn't destroy morality for me, the addition of epigentics hasn't shook the way I view genetic and memetic evolution to the core just yet.
posted by es_de_bah at 1:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [10 favorites]
I should think this would support continuing affirmative action, in the sense of "oh, if generations of abuse of your ancestors makes you succeed less, it probably works in the other direction, so generations of extra support for you and your descendents should eventually get you back on track"
posted by davejay at 1:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by davejay at 1:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [25 favorites]
It's clear in the article that cultural factors are the predominant ones:
posted by No Robots at 1:21 PM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]
If refugees from the Nazis and their offspring have thrived relative to other victims of massive historical trauma, surely that has to do with the quantity of cultural and human capital that washed up with the survivors on the shores of America and Israel. But their flourishing may also be a therapeutic benefit of ritualized communal mourning. It is no accident that the Holocaust now has its own holy day: Yom Ha-Shoah, the Day of the Holocaust.All the genetics stuff is click bait.
posted by No Robots at 1:21 PM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]
From the article: About a decade ago, Michael Meaney, a professor of psychiatry at McGill University in Montreal, founded the field of behavioral epigenetics when he proved, by experimenting with rat mothers and their pups, that early experiences modify gene expression and that those modifications can be passed from one generation to another. David Spiegel, a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University and a former president of the American College of Psychiatrists, told me that Meaney had revealed the epigenetic transmission of vulnerability in rats, and Yehuda is now showing it in humans. Yehuda is, he wrote in an e-mail, “ahead of her time.”
I'm not a scientist. This may be bullshit. But this article interests me because I'm an adoptive parent, plus one of 3 kids with a super damaged parent. I know that my parenting skills were subpar in some respects; I know that one of my parents was wildly narcissistic, and I've recently discovered some things about his past that make me curious about how his unhealthy childhood continues to express itself in him, myself, my siblings, and our children.
I think of toxic childhood stress as a related issue and the work that Dr. Nadine Burke Harris pioneered and continues to do is incredibly important. Here's an excerpt from a recent interview from Mother Jones: Every time a child gets into a scary or dangerous situation, it activates their stress response. The repeated activation of their stress response is what leads to the biological condition that we, in pediatrics, are now calling toxic stress. Toxic stress are the long-term changes to not only brain structure and function, but also to the hormonal system, immune system, and even all the way down to the way our DNA is read and transcribed. And these changes lead to increased risk for mental health and behavioral health consequences—increased risk of depression, increased risk of suicidality, increased risk of anxiety. But also increased risk of things like substance dependence.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:26 PM on August 13, 2017 [10 favorites]
I'm not a scientist. This may be bullshit. But this article interests me because I'm an adoptive parent, plus one of 3 kids with a super damaged parent. I know that my parenting skills were subpar in some respects; I know that one of my parents was wildly narcissistic, and I've recently discovered some things about his past that make me curious about how his unhealthy childhood continues to express itself in him, myself, my siblings, and our children.
I think of toxic childhood stress as a related issue and the work that Dr. Nadine Burke Harris pioneered and continues to do is incredibly important. Here's an excerpt from a recent interview from Mother Jones: Every time a child gets into a scary or dangerous situation, it activates their stress response. The repeated activation of their stress response is what leads to the biological condition that we, in pediatrics, are now calling toxic stress. Toxic stress are the long-term changes to not only brain structure and function, but also to the hormonal system, immune system, and even all the way down to the way our DNA is read and transcribed. And these changes lead to increased risk for mental health and behavioral health consequences—increased risk of depression, increased risk of suicidality, increased risk of anxiety. But also increased risk of things like substance dependence.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:26 PM on August 13, 2017 [10 favorites]
Sphinx, part of the article is that genes have something to do with vulnerability to PTSD.
Childhood trauma (more likely if the parents have PTSD) does damage.
And there are probably epigenetic effects.
Also, note that Jews are doing somewhat better than other people suffering from historical trauma, but there are still serious aftereffects from the Holocaust.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:02 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
Childhood trauma (more likely if the parents have PTSD) does damage.
And there are probably epigenetic effects.
Also, note that Jews are doing somewhat better than other people suffering from historical trauma, but there are still serious aftereffects from the Holocaust.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:02 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
What it really implies is that disadvantaged groups need more political and social support but can thrive if they get it, so I can't see racists endorsing it, as it basically implies prosocial programs that give historically disadvantaged and traumatized individuals and families extra support and resources to work with can reverse the imbalances and lead to a more fair distribution of social status, wealth, and opportunity. In other words, accomplishing that doesn't necessarily have to take generations, just one.
posted by saulgoodman at 2:04 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 2:04 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
The late historian, Richard Hellie, studied hereditary trauma in Russian society in the aftermath of widespread war, violence, and slavery. He didn't study genetics or brain anatomy, but it's interesting that he thought in terms of a kind of societal PTSD.
I think that trauma can absolutely be generational and societal because it disrupts people's ability to react normally and parent their children lovingly and effectively. And the cycle of trauma can be stopped. One of my favorite books, Born for Love (co-authored by MeFi's Own maias) notes that brains are plastic and can be healed. Treating traumatized individuals and groups with a mindset of "this can be healed" would cost more money than the EvPsych Right wants to throw at it but...that's no excuse.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 3:19 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think that trauma can absolutely be generational and societal because it disrupts people's ability to react normally and parent their children lovingly and effectively. And the cycle of trauma can be stopped. One of my favorite books, Born for Love (co-authored by MeFi's Own maias) notes that brains are plastic and can be healed. Treating traumatized individuals and groups with a mindset of "this can be healed" would cost more money than the EvPsych Right wants to throw at it but...that's no excuse.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 3:19 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm always suspicious of genetic causes for societal problems. Putting "epi-" in front of it just moves it to an area of science that's newer and more poorly understood. IMO it's a really bad idea to latch on to this because the narrative is more congenial than The Bell Curve.
posted by mark k at 8:21 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by mark k at 8:21 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
Haven't read the original research, but the information given in that article supports the idea that susceptibility to PTSD is inherited, but it doesn't support the idea that what is inherited is a function of maternal or paternal exposure to trauma. Although some exposures can lead to epigenetic changes in the gametes, it's not clear that such changes have been found so far. I'm guessing that the research itself provides better evidence, but I'm unable to spend the time right now sussing it out and the article provides zero links to peer-reviewed literature. If anyone else has time and inclination, I would be interested in their take.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2017
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2017
If I wasn't already overwhelmed hunting down sex-specific behavior and personality literature, this is actually another area I know relatively well, right up to having given a talk about it for an audience of the general Austin public a few years ago. I am kind of champing at the bit to weigh in, but the brief summary I have to give is that the transgenerational impacts of epigenetic effects tend to be fairly overstated especially to the general public. In part this is because they're fucking cool--we usually think of epigenetic marks being wiped completely off the genome during gametogenesis--but also I think it creates this kind of fateful narrative idea that science journalists really love.
In general epigenetic impact on future behavior actually seems to be strongest in terms of early life experiences rather than your parents' pre-conception experiences per se.
Dammit, timing. I'll get back to this in maybe a week or two if people still want to know.
posted by sciatrix at 11:00 AM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]
In general epigenetic impact on future behavior actually seems to be strongest in terms of early life experiences rather than your parents' pre-conception experiences per se.
Dammit, timing. I'll get back to this in maybe a week or two if people still want to know.
posted by sciatrix at 11:00 AM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]
Oh, and the Meaney work is, I cannot emphasize enough, definitely not bullshit. It's fucking beautiful, actually, if you consider the studies as an aggregate and the number of places he looked at to understand mechanistically what was defining these behavioral changes, from the behavior itself and its transmission over time to its related effects in child rat pups to the specific brain regions being changed right into changes in the neuroreceptors causing the behavioral differences. Ugh it's gorgeous stuff.
posted by sciatrix at 11:03 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 11:03 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
I've been reading this stuff for years and wishing more others would too. A lot of the research I was reading for a while mostly in rats and other mammals does include for rat pup adoption studies and trying to tease out the variables of rearing.
As an adoptee who has very specific issues that relate to the trauma my mother (who I did not know) went through I took a lot of care to trace when health and emotional problems started in my family and they were triggered by environmental variables not a case of "born that way". I.e. my sleep terror and my sister mirrors terrors my mother developed due to specific traumatic events--- and my sister and myself were both removed at birth and placed in two totally different families.
I have so many family members separated at birth by adoption and so seeing what we all are going through vs what was happening in our biological families- what is painful is that our lived experiences and their origins essentially can't be discussed or related to because we are not allowed to see and tell our narrative.
For example a lot of people think genetic origins of PTSD leads to racism, well so does "it's all your parenting" as in to the total removal of native kids from their parents (like what happened to my sister) thinking the way to fix the damage of PTSD is to steal all the children from their parents (or sorry I mean "educate" the children away or whatever you want to call it).. instead of helping children heal from intergenerational and community traumas with their parents.
Also the focus on "some cultures are bad parents" is not going to help end racism. Really let's let this field be researched on more indepth before endorsing or denying it. We can be interested, ready to learn and challenge assumption and realistic that any developing field is going to take time to give solid claims. However I also think to start from the assumption that Lamarkian style genetics or inherited trauma is junk science is also unfounded despite that there has been bad and sensational reporting around some of these issues.
Saying the mental illness is just "random" is also not proven by science yet people love the genetic/innate biology arguments because it matches what they want to be true and makes us feel like we understand things we do not, and that the medical/pharmaceutical model as the only treatment is therefore justified. Not to mention focusing only on nuture/parenting makes it more ok to rip apart vulnerable families "for their own good." If the epigenome can be altered by damaging environments, a lot of the research also finds they can be altered by positive environments however it may be many generations before that healing takes root.
So it is the opposite of a defeatist narrative.
posted by xarnop at 11:20 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
As an adoptee who has very specific issues that relate to the trauma my mother (who I did not know) went through I took a lot of care to trace when health and emotional problems started in my family and they were triggered by environmental variables not a case of "born that way". I.e. my sleep terror and my sister mirrors terrors my mother developed due to specific traumatic events--- and my sister and myself were both removed at birth and placed in two totally different families.
I have so many family members separated at birth by adoption and so seeing what we all are going through vs what was happening in our biological families- what is painful is that our lived experiences and their origins essentially can't be discussed or related to because we are not allowed to see and tell our narrative.
For example a lot of people think genetic origins of PTSD leads to racism, well so does "it's all your parenting" as in to the total removal of native kids from their parents (like what happened to my sister) thinking the way to fix the damage of PTSD is to steal all the children from their parents (or sorry I mean "educate" the children away or whatever you want to call it).. instead of helping children heal from intergenerational and community traumas with their parents.
Also the focus on "some cultures are bad parents" is not going to help end racism. Really let's let this field be researched on more indepth before endorsing or denying it. We can be interested, ready to learn and challenge assumption and realistic that any developing field is going to take time to give solid claims. However I also think to start from the assumption that Lamarkian style genetics or inherited trauma is junk science is also unfounded despite that there has been bad and sensational reporting around some of these issues.
Saying the mental illness is just "random" is also not proven by science yet people love the genetic/innate biology arguments because it matches what they want to be true and makes us feel like we understand things we do not, and that the medical/pharmaceutical model as the only treatment is therefore justified. Not to mention focusing only on nuture/parenting makes it more ok to rip apart vulnerable families "for their own good." If the epigenome can be altered by damaging environments, a lot of the research also finds they can be altered by positive environments however it may be many generations before that healing takes root.
So it is the opposite of a defeatist narrative.
posted by xarnop at 11:20 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm an epigenetics researcher and have been struggling with whether to say anything on this thread. I agree with what sciatrix said:
the transgenerational impacts of epigenetic effects tend to be fairly overstated especially to the general public. In part this is because they're fucking cool--we usually think of epigenetic marks being wiped completely off the genome during gametogenesis--but also I think it creates this kind of fateful narrative idea that science journalists really love.
In particular, I find it problematic that people will take something for which there is ample evidence of social or environmental causes and latch onto a molecular explanation, which with our current understanding of human biology is, at best, merely plausible. And some epigenetics researchers are even skeptical of that.
posted by grouse at 12:30 PM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]
the transgenerational impacts of epigenetic effects tend to be fairly overstated especially to the general public. In part this is because they're fucking cool--we usually think of epigenetic marks being wiped completely off the genome during gametogenesis--but also I think it creates this kind of fateful narrative idea that science journalists really love.
In particular, I find it problematic that people will take something for which there is ample evidence of social or environmental causes and latch onto a molecular explanation, which with our current understanding of human biology is, at best, merely plausible. And some epigenetics researchers are even skeptical of that.
posted by grouse at 12:30 PM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]
Oh sciatrix, I would so very much love to hear whatever you would like to share on this topic, whenever you would like to share it. You, too, grouse. As xarnop put it so beautifully, "it is the opposite of a defeatist narrative." But "it" covers a lot of territory and there are so many unknowns.
Years ago I went to a conference at the University of Ann Arbor about collecting behaviours, among other things. One of the presenters claimed that he'd been involved in a pilot project that helped reduce teen pregnancies by using evolutionary understandings about certain types of behaviour (and no, I can't get more specific than that). Because it's not my job I haven't chased down more details but I am really interested in the intersection of social and environmental factors and, if they exist, biological factors for behaviour.
I'm interested not because I, a lay person, want to latch onto a biological explanation for anything or everything unless it's real. (I get that others may want an excuse or an out or something, but that's not me.) Mostly I just want to understand as best I can the ways in which I became damaged, the best ways for me to heal, and the best ways for me to help my grandchildren build resilience and avoid, if possible, a lot of the damage that I and my family (and my daughter's biological family) have experienced. Not that that's ambitious or anything.
Also, I think we have a lot of this knowledge around already, stuffed in various places, but somehow it hasn't been absorbed into the general culture. Sweden may be a little different. I was at a kid's museum outside of Stockholm once and the mom of a two-year-old had a meltdown when her son refused to put on a jacket. The mom announced that she was leaving him because he wouldn't put on his jacket and moved out of sight, to the other side of the room.
I waited a few seconds to see if I needed to comfort the now-weeping toddler but another woman went to him first. Then the mom came over and was super mad but also nearly in tears herself. (Which is not a Swedish thing.) And the stranger put her arm on the mom and said, "You don't get to leave your son. I know you're upset but leaving him is not okay." Then the dad showed up from who knows where and the (momentarily, I trust) unhappy family left the museum. I was so impressed that the stranger said something to the mom, was kind when she did it, and 47 people didn't run over to the stranger to tell her to butt out.
Parenting was hard for me; it's hard for lots of people. I want parents to know everything they can about what they need to raise healthy, happy kids. Especially the damaged, addicted, despairing, and depressed parents because they and their kids need every single tool in the toolbox. Sorry if this was a derail. I just wanna know as much as I can about this stuff. It fascinates me. It's not your job to educate me, but feel free to toss reliable links our way should any MeFites be so inclined.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:56 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Years ago I went to a conference at the University of Ann Arbor about collecting behaviours, among other things. One of the presenters claimed that he'd been involved in a pilot project that helped reduce teen pregnancies by using evolutionary understandings about certain types of behaviour (and no, I can't get more specific than that). Because it's not my job I haven't chased down more details but I am really interested in the intersection of social and environmental factors and, if they exist, biological factors for behaviour.
I'm interested not because I, a lay person, want to latch onto a biological explanation for anything or everything unless it's real. (I get that others may want an excuse or an out or something, but that's not me.) Mostly I just want to understand as best I can the ways in which I became damaged, the best ways for me to heal, and the best ways for me to help my grandchildren build resilience and avoid, if possible, a lot of the damage that I and my family (and my daughter's biological family) have experienced. Not that that's ambitious or anything.
Also, I think we have a lot of this knowledge around already, stuffed in various places, but somehow it hasn't been absorbed into the general culture. Sweden may be a little different. I was at a kid's museum outside of Stockholm once and the mom of a two-year-old had a meltdown when her son refused to put on a jacket. The mom announced that she was leaving him because he wouldn't put on his jacket and moved out of sight, to the other side of the room.
I waited a few seconds to see if I needed to comfort the now-weeping toddler but another woman went to him first. Then the mom came over and was super mad but also nearly in tears herself. (Which is not a Swedish thing.) And the stranger put her arm on the mom and said, "You don't get to leave your son. I know you're upset but leaving him is not okay." Then the dad showed up from who knows where and the (momentarily, I trust) unhappy family left the museum. I was so impressed that the stranger said something to the mom, was kind when she did it, and 47 people didn't run over to the stranger to tell her to butt out.
Parenting was hard for me; it's hard for lots of people. I want parents to know everything they can about what they need to raise healthy, happy kids. Especially the damaged, addicted, despairing, and depressed parents because they and their kids need every single tool in the toolbox. Sorry if this was a derail. I just wanna know as much as I can about this stuff. It fascinates me. It's not your job to educate me, but feel free to toss reliable links our way should any MeFites be so inclined.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:56 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
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posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:29 PM on August 13, 2017