Not a culture fit
August 13, 2017 5:58 PM Subscribe
Is The Work Environment I've Created On My Team Too Exclusive? Let's Ask A Manager
Remember the letter-writer last week whose employee had quit and said in her exit interview that the team environment was too cliquish? She ended up adding more details in the comments on the original post, including that some employees had been mocking the employee who quit on SnapChat, and when someone complained to HR, the letter-writer wanted to move the person who complained to another team.
Here’s the update.
Glad you liked my comment!
posted by Samizdata at 6:07 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Samizdata at 6:07 PM on August 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
Wow. Sometimes I think I hate my job (don't we all have those days?) but clearly it could be much, much worse. Our department actually has a spoken rule that we don't "friend" each other on social media, and I think that's AWESOME.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:25 PM on August 13, 2017 [28 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:25 PM on August 13, 2017 [28 favorites]
You know, I've generally thought that most of what people try to say about "millenials" tends towards bullshit, but this:
"is the former employee just out of touch with how a team of professional millenials works?"
coming from someone who identifies as a millenial is one of the most damning things I've ever seen about the demographic, particularly combined with the rest of the story.
posted by wildblueyonder at 6:27 PM on August 13, 2017 [24 favorites]
"is the former employee just out of touch with how a team of professional millenials works?"
coming from someone who identifies as a millenial is one of the most damning things I've ever seen about the demographic, particularly combined with the rest of the story.
posted by wildblueyonder at 6:27 PM on August 13, 2017 [24 favorites]
We do at my place of work. Then we all gangpile things like Trump's addiction dismissal. (I work at a mental health and rehab facility). Also a subset of us hangout on a private group on FB for, for lack of a better term, metahuman media appreciation. No issues as of yet.
posted by Samizdata at 6:27 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Samizdata at 6:27 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
If I knew she would have been like this, I would have pushed back on my director not to hire her in favor for someone younger
Wow.
I’m on a suspension pending investigation from work. I am extremely bitter that the person who turned in the SnapChats couldnt come to me first…
Not so much wow.
posted by asperity at 6:29 PM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]
Wow.
I’m on a suspension pending investigation from work. I am extremely bitter that the person who turned in the SnapChats couldnt come to me first…
Not so much wow.
posted by asperity at 6:29 PM on August 13, 2017 [13 favorites]
This is what caught my attention (outside of the general background of "wtf???"): "she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters)" - this is someone who thinks degrees measure intelligence and merit, rather than opportunity and cultural & financial support.
This is rampant in the tech industries.
I am happy to hear that the whole team got canned; I admit I rather boggled at the idea of "she did great presentations and clients liked her, and that made the rest of us look lazy and therefore she was a bad fit for the team."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:30 PM on August 13, 2017 [112 favorites]
This is rampant in the tech industries.
I am happy to hear that the whole team got canned; I admit I rather boggled at the idea of "she did great presentations and clients liked her, and that made the rest of us look lazy and therefore she was a bad fit for the team."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:30 PM on August 13, 2017 [112 favorites]
LW: Is it illegal to not like someone?
Based on the LW's self-disclosed conduct, if so, then perp walk me now.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:35 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
Based on the LW's self-disclosed conduct, if so, then perp walk me now.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:35 PM on August 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
What exactly do these people do? If an entire team got canned in my workplace, important stuff would fall off the table. I admire the company's willingness to clean house but, whew, good luck.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:36 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:36 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's hard to know, but it kinda sounds like the ostracized employee was carrying a lot of the team's work while they were offsite at the brewery, so why not start from scratch?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:39 PM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:39 PM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]
Our department actually has a spoken rule that we don't "friend" each other on social media
I make a personal rule that I don't friend co-workers on social media.
posted by COD at 6:40 PM on August 13, 2017 [38 favorites]
I make a personal rule that I don't friend co-workers on social media.
posted by COD at 6:40 PM on August 13, 2017 [38 favorites]
My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like
Man, what an attention seeker! I can't stand people who quietly do their jobs in a professional and dilligent manner, it's just flamboyant and uncalled for.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 6:42 PM on August 13, 2017 [157 favorites]
Man, what an attention seeker! I can't stand people who quietly do their jobs in a professional and dilligent manner, it's just flamboyant and uncalled for.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 6:42 PM on August 13, 2017 [157 favorites]
That follow-up could not possibly be real. If it's real, the 2017 writers need to fucking quit it already.
posted by maxwelton at 6:42 PM on August 13, 2017 [58 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 6:42 PM on August 13, 2017 [58 favorites]
If I read it right they are in insurance.
posted by drezdn at 6:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 6:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Every once in a while there's a letter on Ask A Manager that makes my jaw drop (like this one) and rush to text my friend who also reads AAM. The last one before this was when the letter writer thought she miiiiiiiiiight have overstepped a boundary by calling her boss's daughter "a whore." Gee, you think?
That's one reason I read AAM--to know that whatever small annoying thing I'm dealing with at work, it could be much worse.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:44 PM on August 13, 2017 [27 favorites]
That's one reason I read AAM--to know that whatever small annoying thing I'm dealing with at work, it could be much worse.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:44 PM on August 13, 2017 [27 favorites]
This person is so obviously an inadequate manager I'm amazed they weren't able to entrench themselves in their position forever.
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [108 favorites]
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [108 favorites]
The followup sounded plausible to me - "I have a team of a cluster of my friends, and we hang out together and go to work together and this OUTSIDER came in and tried to change everything and she made us look bad and then she got us fired even though she was already gone - can I sue my former employer for liking her more than us?"
There are, sigh, a whole lot of people who think like that, and some of them get elected.
Apparently the OP thought, "I am a great manager because my team loves me (well, maybe not my whole team, but all of them that matter) and we all enjoy our jobs," with no concept that great managers might be measured by how much business they bring in.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:46 PM on August 13, 2017 [18 favorites]
There are, sigh, a whole lot of people who think like that, and some of them get elected.
Apparently the OP thought, "I am a great manager because my team loves me (well, maybe not my whole team, but all of them that matter) and we all enjoy our jobs," with no concept that great managers might be measured by how much business they bring in.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:46 PM on August 13, 2017 [18 favorites]
My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.
Maybe if the letter writer spent more time being quiet and not drinking at work and not SnapChatting, she'd figure out many of the online resources that can act as a thesaurus so you can avoid constructions like "show-off-like."
(And this is coming from somebody who LOVES made-up hyphenates.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:54 PM on August 13, 2017 [23 favorites]
Maybe if the letter writer spent more time being quiet and not drinking at work and not SnapChatting, she'd figure out many of the online resources that can act as a thesaurus so you can avoid constructions like "show-off-like."
(And this is coming from somebody who LOVES made-up hyphenates.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:54 PM on August 13, 2017 [23 favorites]
My entire team was fired.
I wonder if that means "my friends, whom I considered to be my real team," rather than what corporate management believed the team to be.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:56 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]
I wonder if that means "my friends, whom I considered to be my real team," rather than what corporate management believed the team to be.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:56 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]
The "update" link is jaw-dropping. The employee that she and her team bullied out of a job surely has a clear-cut case of constructive dismissal.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 6:57 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 6:57 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
What I found most damning was that this person wanted absolute authority over who did what on her team... over things that had been expressly dictated from above. Like, you get to make decisions about your team, and your boss gets to make decisions about you. It kind of seems like what she got fired for wasn't really this person leaving; it was her superiors realizing that they'd been giving her a pass on a lot of stuff thinking she was being effective--or at least they weren't paying very close attention as long as they thought stuff was fine. There's like half a dozen things there that all could have lost her that job independently, and she still thinks this was so unfair.
posted by Sequence at 6:59 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 6:59 PM on August 13, 2017 [17 favorites]
It's basically a case study in failure of management. I initially considered whether the woman was put on the team by way of management hearing rumors about the team, then putting them to the test, but it seems unrealistic that they'd use a person's job as bait like that.
posted by rhizome at 7:02 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 7:02 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
I had a job like this.
"We bully her behind her back but it's not bad because she doesn't know about it" is not actually ever true.
posted by Jeanne at 7:02 PM on August 13, 2017 [87 favorites]
"We bully her behind her back but it's not bad because she doesn't know about it" is not actually ever true.
posted by Jeanne at 7:02 PM on August 13, 2017 [87 favorites]
"By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business under my “mismanagement” and the HR was worried about damage to the brand name. " - and the manager still thinks *she* was unfairly let go???
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:16 PM on August 13, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:16 PM on August 13, 2017 [14 favorites]
I'm (probably) about to be entering the workforce in my 30s with "just" a BA. This isn't very encouraging.
I mean, not everyone is as stupid as "I disagree that it was bullying because she wasn’t on Snap so if she didn’t see it, how is this bullying?," which, uh, wow -- but I have to wonder how often there is this ageist, cliquish mindset that goes unchecked because it's not always so flagrant.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 7:23 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
I mean, not everyone is as stupid as "I disagree that it was bullying because she wasn’t on Snap so if she didn’t see it, how is this bullying?," which, uh, wow -- but I have to wonder how often there is this ageist, cliquish mindset that goes unchecked because it's not always so flagrant.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 7:23 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason.
What even the fuck is this.
posted by rtha at 7:27 PM on August 13, 2017 [80 favorites]
What even the fuck is this.
posted by rtha at 7:27 PM on August 13, 2017 [80 favorites]
I read this a week ago and still can't wrap my mind around this being a real person. Who is this vapid and stupid?!
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:30 PM on August 13, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:30 PM on August 13, 2017 [15 favorites]
If an entire team got canned in my workplace, important stuff would fall off the table.
At that point I started to suspect trolling. I'm not sure how much Ask A Manager digs into the background of question writers, but the follow up is a perfect storm of stuff that I could find believable in twos or threes but the full amount presses credulity. Ask A Manager states that they had the same thought but doesn't say what kind of proof they got that the story is true. It's just a little too LOLMillennialSnake Person to sit right with me.
posted by Candleman at 7:35 PM on August 13, 2017 [35 favorites]
At that point I started to suspect trolling. I'm not sure how much Ask A Manager digs into the background of question writers, but the follow up is a perfect storm of stuff that I could find believable in twos or threes but the full amount presses credulity. Ask A Manager states that they had the same thought but doesn't say what kind of proof they got that the story is true. It's just a little too LOL
posted by Candleman at 7:35 PM on August 13, 2017 [35 favorites]
"is the former employee just out of touch with how a team of professional millenials works?"
coming from someone who identifies as a millenial is one of the most damning things I've ever seen about the demographic, particularly combined with the rest of the story.
the best part is the woman who left IS a millennial -- mid-30s. just, one who does work at work, so they couldn't tell.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:40 PM on August 13, 2017 [35 favorites]
It could be real (there are plenty of bad managers out there) but this read to me more like fiction, especially the followup.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:42 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 7:42 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
"Who is this vapid and stupid?!"
Lots of people, including a certain Google ex-employee.
posted by MikeWarot at 7:44 PM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]
Lots of people, including a certain Google ex-employee.
posted by MikeWarot at 7:44 PM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not sure I believe it. I think it was the "my team finds her ability to develop sales presentations to be show-off-like" that did it. This reads fake to me.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:46 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:46 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
It's sad that the unbelievable part isn't that someone could create that much of a horrible, toxic work environment.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 7:51 PM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 7:51 PM on August 13, 2017 [11 favorites]
This is so tantalizing to me because I can't quite put together what's wrong with this ex-manager.
It's like they don't have any ability to stand apart from themselves and evaluate their own behavior from the outside -- no self-consciousness, as it were.
Could the external second self created by participation in social media from a very young age have replaced and destroyed the internal self-consciousness of earlier generations in this person and some of their contemporaries?
posted by jamjam at 8:00 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's like they don't have any ability to stand apart from themselves and evaluate their own behavior from the outside -- no self-consciousness, as it were.
Could the external second self created by participation in social media from a very young age have replaced and destroyed the internal self-consciousness of earlier generations in this person and some of their contemporaries?
posted by jamjam at 8:00 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not sure I believe it. I think it was the "my team finds her ability to develop sales presentations to be show-off-like" that did it. This reads fake to me.
There's another line where the LW says, like, "I didn't understand why my boss and clients were so impressed with her, her work just didn't seem that good to me." It's totally believable to me that, along with not knowing or recognizing the quality of work she was supposed to be producing, this woman also found someone who was clearly underburdened by the work to be a "show-off."
posted by Snarl Furillo at 8:00 PM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]
There's another line where the LW says, like, "I didn't understand why my boss and clients were so impressed with her, her work just didn't seem that good to me." It's totally believable to me that, along with not knowing or recognizing the quality of work she was supposed to be producing, this woman also found someone who was clearly underburdened by the work to be a "show-off."
posted by Snarl Furillo at 8:00 PM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]
I'm not sure I believe that this isn't fiction but am 100% that there are thousands of similar workplace cultures out there.
This kind of shit scares the hell out of me as a fifty-something software engineer in an industry where half my co-workers are less than half my age.
posted by octothorpe at 8:04 PM on August 13, 2017 [18 favorites]
This kind of shit scares the hell out of me as a fifty-something software engineer in an industry where half my co-workers are less than half my age.
posted by octothorpe at 8:04 PM on August 13, 2017 [18 favorites]
For the record I work with several Millennials and they are lovely people even when they have to explain what the hell "Boomeranging" something means to us olds.
posted by emjaybee at 8:10 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 8:10 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm a millennial and I have no idea what that means.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 8:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [19 favorites]
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 8:12 PM on August 13, 2017 [19 favorites]
I work with a lot of millennial engineers and for the most part they're awesome. Smart, hard-working and seem to have learned to code Javascript in the crib. It's management that I'm afraid of. I don't want somebody coming in and thinking that I'm not a good fit for a team because I was born in the sixties and not the nineties.
posted by octothorpe at 8:22 PM on August 13, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 8:22 PM on August 13, 2017 [15 favorites]
If this is real and these folks are in the insurance/finance industry, they are also most likely registered people who took and passed the Series 7 and whatever Series is the insurance exam. Couple that with their advanced degrees and it is amazing how some people can be book smart while being so friggin lacking in common sense. The inability to not recognize all the things the manager did wrong is really scary. This person's significant other will be writing AskMe s about their relationship and the answer can be nothing other than the proverbial DTMFA.
That was the corporate version of DTMFA.
posted by AugustWest at 8:29 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
That was the corporate version of DTMFA.
posted by AugustWest at 8:29 PM on August 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
I'm not a manager, but if a "senior" is boning a "junior" on one of my teams, isn't that a huge fucking problem and a potential legal liability? I mean, just the lack of judgment would have me going (to the "senior") hasta la pasta, and maybe have someone from HR talk to the "junior" about how that isn't the brightest game-plan.
posted by maxwelton at 8:36 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 8:36 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
if a "senior" is boning a "junior" on one of my teams, isn't that a huge fucking problem and a potential legal liability?
For this case, it seems less likely a matter of legal liability than causing problems from (1) lack of objectivity - they're more likely to forgive each other's mistakes/ignore each other's problems and (2) drama explosions when they break up.
If one's in a position of direct control over the other, there is the possibility of a harassment suit, but the impression I got from the letter is that they were basically peers, or at least, not one directly in charge of the other even if they weren't at the same status level: one of my newly promoted seniors was sleeping with an associate ... They did work on the same accounts so they were reporting to one another.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
For this case, it seems less likely a matter of legal liability than causing problems from (1) lack of objectivity - they're more likely to forgive each other's mistakes/ignore each other's problems and (2) drama explosions when they break up.
If one's in a position of direct control over the other, there is the possibility of a harassment suit, but the impression I got from the letter is that they were basically peers, or at least, not one directly in charge of the other even if they weren't at the same status level: one of my newly promoted seniors was sleeping with an associate ... They did work on the same accounts so they were reporting to one another.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:43 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
The "update" link is jaw-dropping. The employee that she and her team bullied out of a job surely has a clear-cut case of constructive dismissal.
Maaaaaaan, I really wish I would have known about this a few years back. I had a prior job that was a combination of this AND harassment from my boss.
Should I mention the organization went through four people in the year after I was let go, then closed the position permanently?
posted by Samizdata at 8:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
Maaaaaaan, I really wish I would have known about this a few years back. I had a prior job that was a combination of this AND harassment from my boss.
Should I mention the organization went through four people in the year after I was let go, then closed the position permanently?
posted by Samizdata at 8:45 PM on August 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
I should also mention members are allowed to invite any employees and non-employees they want to that private group, and all new members are cordially swarm-greeted. The members just realize our particular tastes aren't everyone's, so we try to limit invitations to people that would like it.
(Also, as a bonus, one of my coworkers in that group brought me a slew of Dr. Strange movie swag (just little stuff like pins and such) from Comic Con and left it at her desk if I wanted it. I like my job.)
posted by Samizdata at 8:49 PM on August 13, 2017
(Also, as a bonus, one of my coworkers in that group brought me a slew of Dr. Strange movie swag (just little stuff like pins and such) from Comic Con and left it at her desk if I wanted it. I like my job.)
posted by Samizdata at 8:49 PM on August 13, 2017
Yeah, I still have some doubts about the veracity of this one. As others have pointed out, it's just a bit too perfect, esp. the follow-up.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:51 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:51 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
Boomeranging. Which I overheard as "I want to Boomerang that hedgehog!" and my first thought was, that's very cruel why would you do this Nice Millennial Coworker?
posted by emjaybee at 8:56 PM on August 13, 2017
posted by emjaybee at 8:56 PM on August 13, 2017
You definitely have to look at this one w/ Snake People to Snake People
posted by hleehowon at 9:00 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by hleehowon at 9:00 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
My one criticism of Ask a Manager, is I feel like she only posts questions from psycho managers or their harried employees. Are there no good managers in the world?!?! G'ah!!!
posted by Toddles at 9:01 PM on August 13, 2017
posted by Toddles at 9:01 PM on August 13, 2017
My one criticism of Ask a Manager, is I feel like she only posts questions from psycho managers or their harried employees. Are there no good managers in the world?!?! G'ah!!!
That's like complaining that people never post about their healthy relationships on AskMe.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:03 PM on August 13, 2017 [87 favorites]
That's like complaining that people never post about their healthy relationships on AskMe.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:03 PM on August 13, 2017 [87 favorites]
"is the former employee just out of touch with how a team of professional millenials works?"
coming from someone who identifies as a Millenial is one of the most damning things I've ever seen about the demographic, particularly combined with the rest of the story.
I work with quite a few professional Millennials, and that is definitely not professional Millenial behavior. On the other hand, I've seen nearly as bad behavior from some Baby Boomers and Gen-X employers.
That sort of mismanagement and toxic teamwork doesn't seem very generational at all.
posted by happyroach at 9:08 PM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]
coming from someone who identifies as a Millenial is one of the most damning things I've ever seen about the demographic, particularly combined with the rest of the story.
I work with quite a few professional Millennials, and that is definitely not professional Millenial behavior. On the other hand, I've seen nearly as bad behavior from some Baby Boomers and Gen-X employers.
That sort of mismanagement and toxic teamwork doesn't seem very generational at all.
posted by happyroach at 9:08 PM on August 13, 2017 [16 favorites]
I suspect that "my team was fired" doesn't mean "the department was removed" but "me and my three besties were fired." I find it entirely plausible - pack of college grad sales people, one of whom got appointed "manager" because she was good at sales, working to make each other happy much more than to make clients buy stuff, getting assigned a consultant to clean up the department; drive away consultant, and in the couple of months' cleanup after that, upper management decides that the whole department is rotten and clearing out several people is better for the company.
If I hadn't seen that level of incompetence in action, I might not believe it - but I have, and I have seen how it can slip under the awareness of upper management at a big company for years.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:13 PM on August 13, 2017 [31 favorites]
If I hadn't seen that level of incompetence in action, I might not believe it - but I have, and I have seen how it can slip under the awareness of upper management at a big company for years.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:13 PM on August 13, 2017 [31 favorites]
I've had my whole department laid off before, about 20 people. If they were losing money and it wasn't that big a team, I could see it.
posted by emjaybee at 9:13 PM on August 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 9:13 PM on August 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
You know, I've generally thought that most of what people try to say about "millenials" tends towards bullshit, but this:
"is the former employee just out of touch with how a team of professional millenials works?"
coming from someone who identifies as a millenial is one of the most damning things I've ever seen about the demographic, particularly combined with the rest of the story.
I'm skeptical of the reality of this whole thing. However, as someone who considers themselves older than a millennial, this is not a phenomenon limited to that generation. I have had several managers who crossover to various degrees with this manager. I have even been this manager to some extent. There is a type of person who makes little to no distinction between their work life and their social life. I suspect that some of these people, being too obnoxious to make many real friends, use their position to create a group of "friends" at work.
They really don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to be friends and hang out and talk about personal stuff with them. How could everyone at work being friends be a bad thing?
posted by runcibleshaw at 9:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]
"is the former employee just out of touch with how a team of professional millenials works?"
coming from someone who identifies as a millenial is one of the most damning things I've ever seen about the demographic, particularly combined with the rest of the story.
I'm skeptical of the reality of this whole thing. However, as someone who considers themselves older than a millennial, this is not a phenomenon limited to that generation. I have had several managers who crossover to various degrees with this manager. I have even been this manager to some extent. There is a type of person who makes little to no distinction between their work life and their social life. I suspect that some of these people, being too obnoxious to make many real friends, use their position to create a group of "friends" at work.
They really don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to be friends and hang out and talk about personal stuff with them. How could everyone at work being friends be a bad thing?
posted by runcibleshaw at 9:14 PM on August 13, 2017 [12 favorites]
Can't say one way or the other, but if this were say, and insurance sales team that was completely fucked up, I could totally see them closing the St Louis office or whatever.
posted by pwnguin at 9:15 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by pwnguin at 9:15 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm having a really hard time somebody could be blind enough to write something like:
"...her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. ...I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters)"
posted by obiwanwasabi at 10:22 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
"...her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. ...I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters)"
posted by obiwanwasabi at 10:22 PM on August 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Yes I agree with all those who says it's fake. Just utter trolling. Ask a manager should be ashamed of having run with it (though I'm sure they knew it would be very popular, as the reposting here shows).
posted by crazy with stars at 11:15 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by crazy with stars at 11:15 PM on August 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm not convinced that it's fake. A while back AskAManager had a completely crazy letter about a job interview where all of the candidates had to throw a dinner party at an exec's house with a few hours notice. Many people thought it was fake, but then it was written about in Gawker.
Obviously, I'd prefer it if it was fake, but just because somethings ridiculous doesn't mean it didn't happen. Life doesn't happen in order of probability.
posted by Trifling at 12:03 AM on August 14, 2017 [30 favorites]
Obviously, I'd prefer it if it was fake, but just because somethings ridiculous doesn't mean it didn't happen. Life doesn't happen in order of probability.
posted by Trifling at 12:03 AM on August 14, 2017 [30 favorites]
One of the things that fascinates me about Ask A Manager is the extent of culture clashes that show up: between me and the commenters, between the posters and the commenters, and within the comment section. I have no problem at all believing this was real.
The guy who pushed a co-worker under a car, and the concern was medical provision for the bird phobia that caused him to do this - I was pretty staggered.
The woman who framed a co-worker for fraud in a convoluted attempt to call the cops on her abusive husband got (by my standards) a surprising amount of sympathy compared to the unfortunate innocent.
I do love the updates.
posted by Azara at 1:07 AM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]
The guy who pushed a co-worker under a car, and the concern was medical provision for the bird phobia that caused him to do this - I was pretty staggered.
The woman who framed a co-worker for fraud in a convoluted attempt to call the cops on her abusive husband got (by my standards) a surprising amount of sympathy compared to the unfortunate innocent.
I do love the updates.
posted by Azara at 1:07 AM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]
Obviously I have no idea if this particular story is made up but I can say from personal experience that the scenario entirely plausible.
I’ve had the unfortunate experience of observing a team of people behave exactly like this, right down to the brewery happy hours and backchannel mocking for similar reasons. If I didn’t know for sure that team is still together, I’d wonder if this was about them.
People can well and truly suck sometimes.
posted by _Mona_ at 2:06 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
I’ve had the unfortunate experience of observing a team of people behave exactly like this, right down to the brewery happy hours and backchannel mocking for similar reasons. If I didn’t know for sure that team is still together, I’d wonder if this was about them.
People can well and truly suck sometimes.
posted by _Mona_ at 2:06 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'm interviewing for a managerial position today. I'll try to remember not to take this person as a role model...
posted by knapah at 2:10 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by knapah at 2:10 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Plausible to me, too. My first office job, you could leave at three as long as someone stayed until six. That someone was me, every single day, for a year. One guy phoned in sick every single Monday. The manager would pick out easy work for the three others and leave me with the complicated sucky ones, because she "knew how I wanted to progress". They barely bothered to talk to me because I would have nothing in common with them, and would openly blank me.
This was 4 40-50 year olds by the way. I found out later that this happened over and over, they'd get a new graduate on their team who would get stuck with all the shit work and covering the hours. The one who phoned in sick eventually got fired under the sickness absence policy, but afaik the others are all still there.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:21 AM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]
This was 4 40-50 year olds by the way. I found out later that this happened over and over, they'd get a new graduate on their team who would get stuck with all the shit work and covering the hours. The one who phoned in sick eventually got fired under the sickness absence policy, but afaik the others are all still there.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:21 AM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]
One of the things that fascinates me about Ask A Manager is the extent of culture clashes that show up: between me and the commenters, between the posters and the commenters, and within the comment section.
Yes! I find it fascinating just how American it all is. Which is not at all a criticism, obviously Alison is American as are most participants, but the way it's suffused with US cultural expectations about work and the workplace really stands out. But, but, what do you MEAN you don't have a contract and your employer can fire you at will? Where is your union?
posted by Catseye at 2:32 AM on August 14, 2017 [21 favorites]
Yes! I find it fascinating just how American it all is. Which is not at all a criticism, obviously Alison is American as are most participants, but the way it's suffused with US cultural expectations about work and the workplace really stands out. But, but, what do you MEAN you don't have a contract and your employer can fire you at will? Where is your union?
posted by Catseye at 2:32 AM on August 14, 2017 [21 favorites]
This whole thing seems entirely plausible to me. Brewery aside, this is pretty much how every retail job I've had has gone. The hardest bit for me to believe is the manager and her team getting fired. I've seen countless excellent workers driven out of retail (supermarkets especially) but never seen the lazy, in-group shits suffer any consequences.
posted by Dysk at 4:07 AM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:07 AM on August 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
On the topic of AAM threads, this is my favorite I've seen this year: I got fired for attending a conference that I wasn’t invited to
The new grad trying to show initiave, only to have it backfire spectacularly, hits close to home.
posted by dr_dank at 4:25 AM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]
The new grad trying to show initiave, only to have it backfire spectacularly, hits close to home.
posted by dr_dank at 4:25 AM on August 14, 2017 [11 favorites]
This is probably worth a front page link on its own, but I'm a friend of the authors so it wouldn't feel right about it coming from me.
That said, I think it's worth your time to look at The Co-Pour where Melissa and Johnathan Nightingale have written an insightful series of articles about management failures, effective leadership, and how to keep everything from going off the rails that are all excellent, and very worth reading.
posted by mhoye at 4:33 AM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]
That said, I think it's worth your time to look at The Co-Pour where Melissa and Johnathan Nightingale have written an insightful series of articles about management failures, effective leadership, and how to keep everything from going off the rails that are all excellent, and very worth reading.
posted by mhoye at 4:33 AM on August 14, 2017 [8 favorites]
Almost buried in the update is this:
How could everyone at work being friends be a bad thing?
It isn't intrinsically a bad thing, but it isn't the thing the employer is paying them for, and when it interferes with that thing, it does become bad.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:34 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.So there's a clear motive for sabotaging the "outsider." That company is well rid of hm or her.
How could everyone at work being friends be a bad thing?
It isn't intrinsically a bad thing, but it isn't the thing the employer is paying them for, and when it interferes with that thing, it does become bad.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:34 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
If I hadn't seen that level of incompetence in action, I might not believe it - but I have, and I have seen how it can slip under the awareness of upper management at a big company for years.
This describes my first two jobs. The second job was very cliquey because a group of people came from the same school. I wish I could remember why a bunch of them were fired one day, but it had to do with "getting rid of bad apples".
How could everyone at work being friends be a bad thing?
Hooboy! There were at least three divorces related to three affairs between co-workers at one job :D Maybe there were more, but it was really disruptive. The co-workers spent so much time working together that it went beyond the usual work spouse experience :/
posted by Calzephyr at 4:58 AM on August 14, 2017
This describes my first two jobs. The second job was very cliquey because a group of people came from the same school. I wish I could remember why a bunch of them were fired one day, but it had to do with "getting rid of bad apples".
How could everyone at work being friends be a bad thing?
Hooboy! There were at least three divorces related to three affairs between co-workers at one job :D Maybe there were more, but it was really disruptive. The co-workers spent so much time working together that it went beyond the usual work spouse experience :/
posted by Calzephyr at 4:58 AM on August 14, 2017
> Yeah, I still have some doubts about the veracity of this one. As others have pointed out, it's just a bit too perfect, esp. the follow-up.
Alison addresses this, albeit very briefly, in the comments here.
posted by noneuclidean at 5:21 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Alison addresses this, albeit very briefly, in the comments here.
posted by noneuclidean at 5:21 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I deeply envy people who have never worked anywhere that was this bad.
The only implausible thing to me is that they fired them for it.
posted by winna at 5:44 AM on August 14, 2017 [24 favorites]
The only implausible thing to me is that they fired them for it.
posted by winna at 5:44 AM on August 14, 2017 [24 favorites]
I don't doubt it because of the severity of the awfulness. I have worked with and for some shining examples of the worst of humanity. And I spent many years being that one person who got stuck with being coverage without being asked. It's just the way it's written that makes it sound iffy to me.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:58 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:58 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm also surprised that the manager and her team were fired.
In advertising, usually one of the team members gets a "promotion" by moving to another agency, and then gradually brings all her friends over. Repeat every two years or so, before anyone catches up with what they've been up to.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:33 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
In advertising, usually one of the team members gets a "promotion" by moving to another agency, and then gradually brings all her friends over. Repeat every two years or so, before anyone catches up with what they've been up to.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:33 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Couple that with their advanced degrees and it is amazing how some people can be book smart while being so friggin lacking in common sense.
Right? I am constantly amazed at the low levels of common sense, drafting ability, organization, initiative, etc. among those who managed to graduate from a tier 1 law school and land a job at biglaw litigation firm.
posted by slkinsey at 7:18 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Right? I am constantly amazed at the low levels of common sense, drafting ability, organization, initiative, etc. among those who managed to graduate from a tier 1 law school and land a job at biglaw litigation firm.
posted by slkinsey at 7:18 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't be surprised if the LW was actually in the situation of the ex-employee.
This was my reaction.
posted by PMdixon at 7:22 AM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]
This was my reaction.
posted by PMdixon at 7:22 AM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]
I've worked places where drinking was totally fine and normal as a part of work-related social events, but I've also definitely worked places where walking back into work after a drinking lunch would have been grounds for immediate dismissal. Zero tolerance policies for intoxication aren't that unusual, and if there's a zero tolerance policy, then it's not like they're going to say, "Oops, you got us, we didn't really mean it!" if you just take a bunch of people with you.
posted by Sequence at 7:23 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Sequence at 7:23 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I tend toward fake, only because the letter writer at one point self-describes as 'insubordinate.' I've never heard anyone do that before.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:57 AM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:57 AM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
This has to be satirical, and if it's genuinely not, then it's indistinguishable from satire.
The language in the follow-up is a little too on the nose when it comes to spelling out exactly why this person was placed on their team, and spells out exactly why the letter writer is wrong. There's the indication of sour grapes in that the employee who quit seems to have been placed on the team for mutual benefit: she had a proven track record they could learn from, and they were a younger team that could use the experience. I'd imagine it could be frustrating to manage someone who might be in a position superior to your own if you felt they were there only by managerial fiat.
But the writer explicitly says the employee in question was praised by other departments for her great client relations and performance.
At that point it's purely satire! There are managers who are clearly blind as to what their role is. Hint: it's to manage people and foster a beneficial work environment, but it's mainly to make the company money and get work done. People should be in management because they make the process of getting work done easier and empower their employees to make decisions, not to enforce some sort of top-down structure. The management in this anecdote got it, and gave them someone they could learn from.
posted by mikeh at 8:01 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
The language in the follow-up is a little too on the nose when it comes to spelling out exactly why this person was placed on their team, and spells out exactly why the letter writer is wrong. There's the indication of sour grapes in that the employee who quit seems to have been placed on the team for mutual benefit: she had a proven track record they could learn from, and they were a younger team that could use the experience. I'd imagine it could be frustrating to manage someone who might be in a position superior to your own if you felt they were there only by managerial fiat.
But the writer explicitly says the employee in question was praised by other departments for her great client relations and performance.
At that point it's purely satire! There are managers who are clearly blind as to what their role is. Hint: it's to manage people and foster a beneficial work environment, but it's mainly to make the company money and get work done. People should be in management because they make the process of getting work done easier and empower their employees to make decisions, not to enforce some sort of top-down structure. The management in this anecdote got it, and gave them someone they could learn from.
posted by mikeh at 8:01 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
The constant "but I've got a MBAaaaay" garbage is also dead-on. This was written by someone who had a dickhead manager that managed poorly but was in the position because they had a piece of paper.
posted by mikeh at 8:04 AM on August 14, 2017
posted by mikeh at 8:04 AM on August 14, 2017
Fake or not, I've never heard of this column before and I see many hours of enjoyment ahead of me.
posted by JanetLand at 8:22 AM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 8:22 AM on August 14, 2017 [12 favorites]
I spent about ten years at a health insurance company and saw management this bad quite often. In a couple cases it was even worse. This is totally plausible.
posted by Ber at 9:05 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Ber at 9:05 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Sadly, this situation is totally plausible and I think that is why it made sense for AAM to publish it even if the specifics are made up. There are many lessons here for the people who think the manager was wronged in the firing.
Having said that, sorry, NOT, that the whole team was fired.
posted by AugustWest at 9:12 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Having said that, sorry, NOT, that the whole team was fired.
posted by AugustWest at 9:12 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
The only reason it's a 'millennial' thing is that the people in that specific demographic right now are 'millennials.' There were people exactly like this all over the place during the dot-com boom as well. Coddled, arrogant young adults with little if any professional experience, too much confidence in their own abilities, and no respect for anyone else's. Back in the 90s, I worked at one particular company that was so awful about hiring people based on 'culture fits' that I ended up yelling at my boss about it, and the culture there looked a whole lot like the one described. I'm sure that sort of thing was going on long before I encountered it, too.
I still think it's probably fake, not because of the concrete events described, but because of how bad the letter writer is at bullshitting. The descriptions are just a little too honest. Someone actually like this would have either left out the part about losing clients, for example, or twisted them somehow to their benefit. Like this, "By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace." Someone this oblivious would probably either deny or qualify by putting a 'supposedly' in there, or justify it by saying those clients were undesirable somehow. They wouldn't admit that the company was losing business because of their own mistreatment of the employee who was working with them. You can end up in a decent corporate job if you suck at the job itself, but you have to be better at bullshitting than the letter writer is.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:20 AM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]
I still think it's probably fake, not because of the concrete events described, but because of how bad the letter writer is at bullshitting. The descriptions are just a little too honest. Someone actually like this would have either left out the part about losing clients, for example, or twisted them somehow to their benefit. Like this, "By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace." Someone this oblivious would probably either deny or qualify by putting a 'supposedly' in there, or justify it by saying those clients were undesirable somehow. They wouldn't admit that the company was losing business because of their own mistreatment of the employee who was working with them. You can end up in a decent corporate job if you suck at the job itself, but you have to be better at bullshitting than the letter writer is.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:20 AM on August 14, 2017 [13 favorites]
I wouldn't be surprised if the LW was actually in the situation of the ex-employee.
I wouldn't be surprised, either - she's getting shit from her old boss/team, so she needed feedback on whether or not she was at fault for what happened. This would explain how this LW both hates and admires the so-called ex-employee.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:21 AM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't be surprised, either - she's getting shit from her old boss/team, so she needed feedback on whether or not she was at fault for what happened. This would explain how this LW both hates and admires the so-called ex-employee.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:21 AM on August 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
Whether both letters are fake I couldn't tell ya, but they clearly seem to have been written by two different people, one of whom has a much weaker grasp of "professional" grammar and style than the other.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:24 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:24 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, not sure I believe it but what makes it *more* believable is that she mentions that her "entire team" was fired in a sentence embedded in the last paragraph. Blink and you miss it. This after *opening* with the announcement that she got fired without severance.
Some people really are cracked enough to make everything about themselves. OTOH, such people are also usually good at knowing how they *should* sound.
I align with ernielundquist on this one.
posted by tel3path at 9:25 AM on August 14, 2017
Some people really are cracked enough to make everything about themselves. OTOH, such people are also usually good at knowing how they *should* sound.
I align with ernielundquist on this one.
posted by tel3path at 9:25 AM on August 14, 2017
I also think it's fake, primarily because of the level of detail given, the odd descriptions of the ex-employee, and the fanficish style of writing*. I wouldn't be surprised if the LW was actually in the situation of the ex-employee.
Yeah, I think this is it too. It's actually going on, but it's not the manager writing it.
posted by BibiRose at 9:40 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Coddled, arrogant young adults with little if any professional experience, too much confidence in their own abilities, and no respect for anyone else's.
Hee! Flashes me back to a conversation I overheard between two younger colleagues when I was in my mid-twenties. One young woman was saying to the other, "You just can't count on the over-twenty-fives. They've got a whole different set of screwed-up priorities."
Plus ça change...
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:13 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hee! Flashes me back to a conversation I overheard between two younger colleagues when I was in my mid-twenties. One young woman was saying to the other, "You just can't count on the over-twenty-fives. They've got a whole different set of screwed-up priorities."
Plus ça change...
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:13 AM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm tending towards real, partly because it goes shooting straight past the point where a fake would be thinking "nah, I need to tone it down a bit...".
posted by MattWPBS at 10:32 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 10:32 AM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's actually going on, but it's not the manager writing it.
No, it's the entire team ...
posted by philip-random at 10:41 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
No, it's the entire team ...
posted by philip-random at 10:41 AM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
I agree with those who don't find the *situation* implausible, but that the framing of the letter is off, there's too much admitting of the outsider's virtues. Though I suppose it could be a remarkably unreflective individual.
posted by tavella at 10:41 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by tavella at 10:41 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
I tend toward fake, only because the letter writer at one point self-describes as 'insubordinate.'
I took those descriptions to be paraphrases of what she was told while being fired.
posted by soelo at 11:06 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
I took those descriptions to be paraphrases of what she was told while being fired.
posted by soelo at 11:06 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
It read to me like someone who got their management skills from a thriller novel, where you build a crack team that has boots on the ground and knows the situation way better than management could, where breaking the rules gets the job done and it's better to ask forgiveness than permission, where culture fit is vital! And maybe this person managed to convey a general reputation of success, which is why Rock Star New Hire was assigned to that team in the first place. And it wasn't until Rock Star left and revealed all in her exit interview that the lid blew off and the reality of the situation became known.
Using words like "insubordinate" makes me think the letter writer wanted AAM to translate what the old fogeys were telling her and why it was bullshit to be fired for it.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:10 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
Using words like "insubordinate" makes me think the letter writer wanted AAM to translate what the old fogeys were telling her and why it was bullshit to be fired for it.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:10 AM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
I took those descriptions to be paraphrases of what she was told while being fired.
Yeah, a lot of things she said that could be taken to be admissions of wrongdoing or that look like she's admitting this other person was pretty good at her job, I think on reading that they're intended to be "this is what everybody says and it's so stupid I don't even need to explain why, right?"
posted by Sequence at 11:15 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, a lot of things she said that could be taken to be admissions of wrongdoing or that look like she's admitting this other person was pretty good at her job, I think on reading that they're intended to be "this is what everybody says and it's so stupid I don't even need to explain why, right?"
posted by Sequence at 11:15 AM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
This reads as fake to me but also plausible. Where I work they fired an entire department because they didn't like a couple of people managing it. However it was the training department and who needs training anyways :-/
posted by Justin Case at 11:55 AM on August 14, 2017
posted by Justin Case at 11:55 AM on August 14, 2017
This almost sounds like it could have been written by the manager from the Scranton branch of a certain paper company.
posted by mach at 12:00 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by mach at 12:00 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
I once worked at a smallish business where the lunatic owner closed the whole shop down and fired the entire staff.
He quietly reopened a week later under a slightly different name, and offered jobs to his few cronies among the former employees.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:09 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
He quietly reopened a week later under a slightly different name, and offered jobs to his few cronies among the former employees.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:09 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
> I'm not a manager, but if a "senior" is boning a "junior" on one of my teams, isn't that a huge fucking problem and a potential legal liability? I mean, just the lack of judgment would have me going (to the "senior") hasta la pasta, and maybe have someone from HR talk to the "junior" about how that isn't the brightest game-plan.
Or, say, the executive director sleeping with at intern? Not to rehash old news, but I have such a hard time taking her seriously for management advice, especially knowing some of the other staff who were there then.
posted by gingerbeer at 2:34 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Or, say, the executive director sleeping with at intern? Not to rehash old news, but I have such a hard time taking her seriously for management advice, especially knowing some of the other staff who were there then.
posted by gingerbeer at 2:34 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
He quietly reopened a week later under a slightly different name, and offered jobs to his few cronies among the former employees.
But the creditors, and folks expecting a paycheck, they can have the deceased husk of the old business. Right?
posted by pwnguin at 3:32 PM on August 14, 2017
But the creditors, and folks expecting a paycheck, they can have the deceased husk of the old business. Right?
posted by pwnguin at 3:32 PM on August 14, 2017
Imagine going "above and beyond" for no reason. The sheer temerity!
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:38 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:38 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I feel confident this is a fake. Nobody has the clear vision to say things like "When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. " and then turn around and say they were wrongfully fired and feel no regrets. Too many of these phrases are written with apology built in.
The scenario is real- I'm not calling bullshit on it because of any implausibility. Maybe this is written by a real person or persons who is the employee being treated poorly, or someone at the company observing a fellow manager, or maybe it's several separate scenarios combined into one.
If this is real and these folks are in the insurance/finance industry, they are also most likely registered people who took and passed the Series 7 and whatever Series is the insurance exam.
I used to work in this industry and in my experience and opinion the insurance exams and Series 7 require memorization skills and the ability to show up to a test on time (or the funding to retake the test), not book smarts.
posted by Secretariat at 5:14 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
The scenario is real- I'm not calling bullshit on it because of any implausibility. Maybe this is written by a real person or persons who is the employee being treated poorly, or someone at the company observing a fellow manager, or maybe it's several separate scenarios combined into one.
If this is real and these folks are in the insurance/finance industry, they are also most likely registered people who took and passed the Series 7 and whatever Series is the insurance exam.
I used to work in this industry and in my experience and opinion the insurance exams and Series 7 require memorization skills and the ability to show up to a test on time (or the funding to retake the test), not book smarts.
posted by Secretariat at 5:14 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
Imagine going "above and beyond" for no reason. The sheer temerity!
I would NEVER!
posted by Emmy Rae at 5:21 PM on August 14, 2017
I would NEVER!
posted by Emmy Rae at 5:21 PM on August 14, 2017
If this is sales it seems feasible to me. Sales people can get away with anything other than not selling.
posted by fshgrl at 5:24 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 5:24 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'd just like it if Millennials could learn how to spell "Millennials."
posted by tzikeh at 5:33 PM on August 14, 2017
posted by tzikeh at 5:33 PM on August 14, 2017
Just a note that the columnist addresses the possibility the the letter is fake in the update overview, and mentions having a back and forth with the letter writer in which she eventually decides that it isn't.
posted by mrmurbles at 6:15 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by mrmurbles at 6:15 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
could learn how to spell "Millennials."
a word that I've found spelled differently in different dictionaries. Sometimes two nn's, sometimes just one. Also, installment (sometimes only the one l). Spelling clearly ain't a science.
posted by philip-random at 6:16 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
a word that I've found spelled differently in different dictionaries. Sometimes two nn's, sometimes just one. Also, installment (sometimes only the one l). Spelling clearly ain't a science.
posted by philip-random at 6:16 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's 2017. I no longer have any skepticism about people being unhinged in wacky new ways. So sure, it's real, why not? It's more internally consistent than any number of things in the news right now, which is sort of refreshing.
posted by XtinaS at 6:56 PM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 6:56 PM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]
philip-random: a word that I've found spelled differently in different dictionaries
Which ones? All of the dictionaries I have spell it with two "n"s. They don't even give the one-n version as a second or less-common option. All of the online dictionaries I've tried searching with the one-n spelling return "no entries match this" or "this word may be misspelled."
Which dictionaries have you found that spell it with one "n"?
posted by tzikeh at 9:05 PM on August 14, 2017
Which ones? All of the dictionaries I have spell it with two "n"s. They don't even give the one-n version as a second or less-common option. All of the online dictionaries I've tried searching with the one-n spelling return "no entries match this" or "this word may be misspelled."
Which dictionaries have you found that spell it with one "n"?
posted by tzikeh at 9:05 PM on August 14, 2017
Also "installment" is the American English spelling, and "instalment" is the British English spelling, so that's not a matter of error, but simply a matter of two countries divided by a common language.
posted by tzikeh at 9:08 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tzikeh at 9:08 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Which dictionaries have you found that spell it with one "n"?
it was years ago that I came across it, pre 1999. So I can't remember. And you're right. Google and other options do opt for the two nn's. My basic rule of thumb online is just go go with whatever the browser I'm in is wanting (ie: usually American). Unless I'm on Facebook where I impose proper Canadian spellings because most of my friends are Canadian (also Metafilter discussions that are taking a Canadian focus).
but simply a matter of two countries divided by a common language.
More than just two as noted above. Canada seems to bounce around between the two.
posted by philip-random at 10:58 PM on August 14, 2017
I've been reading Ask A Manager for career tips as a chronically underemployed Millennial. But now I just want to replace all my cover letters with "I will never be as terrible as [link to this AAM post]; please give me employment and money!"
P.S. If you're interested in Allison's How to Get a Job ebook, the 40% off coupon code "newjob" still works.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:19 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
P.S. If you're interested in Allison's How to Get a Job ebook, the 40% off coupon code "newjob" still works.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:19 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
I would not at all be surprised if this is 100% real. After playing online video games for as long as there have been online video games, the only thing that surprises me about this is that it's a woman.
It's 2017, we should be done being surprised at how shitty people can be or even the weird ways they display it.
posted by VTX at 3:08 PM on August 15, 2017
It's 2017, we should be done being surprised at how shitty people can be or even the weird ways they display it.
posted by VTX at 3:08 PM on August 15, 2017
NB: Ask A Manager uses "she" as a default pronoun, so the letter writer's gender identity is indeterminate.
posted by rewil at 5:54 PM on August 15, 2017
posted by rewil at 5:54 PM on August 15, 2017
I feel (like Alison herself) that it's entirely possible that it's real, and that it's not really that important anyway, because this is a scenario people find themselves in (on various sides) and the responses she wrote are instructive. That's basically the official position on AskMe, too - sure, I bet a) some questions are totally made up, b) it's less than you think, and c) even the made-up ones are useful and instructive for someone at some time.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:56 PM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 5:56 PM on August 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
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I should have had my friend send me the link so I could have posted it here.
sighs
ONE DAY! ONE DAY I SHALL LEARN!
shakes fist dramatically at sky
posted by Samizdata at 6:05 PM on August 13, 2017 [6 favorites]