"This is also our fault. Look what we made us do."
August 31, 2017 3:12 PM Subscribe
"Just as we reached the final, dregs-and-leftovers phase of summer, the first pure, truly emblematic, undeniable piece of pop art of the Trump era landed right in our laps. Two nights before the fight, Taylor Swift unloaded her new single 'Look What You Made Me Do,' and although Trump still seems wedded to 'You Can’t Always Get What You Want' as his signature rally-closer, he really should consider an update. Swift’s tour de force of deflective petulance is amazing: It’s essentially a catalogue of every public feud she’s had that, without naming them, manages to extend, mock, and, most important, commodify them." (Mark Harris, Vulture)
I found the song unlistenable until I heard this remix with Britney's Toxic.
posted by AFABulous at 3:51 PM on August 31, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 3:51 PM on August 31, 2017 [15 favorites]
poor, poor taylor - one of these days, she's going to wake up - she's going to be over 40 - she's going to have no record deal - she's going to be a trivial pursuit question - and she's going to stare bitterly out the window, open it and scream
"WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY HATE ME ANY MORE?"
posted by pyramid termite at 3:57 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
"WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY HATE ME ANY MORE?"
posted by pyramid termite at 3:57 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
poor, poor taylor she's going to be hilariously rich and probably not actually give a shit because RICH
posted by FritoKAL at 4:12 PM on August 31, 2017 [28 favorites]
posted by FritoKAL at 4:12 PM on August 31, 2017 [28 favorites]
I'm about as hip as a prosthetic implant joint, so the events of pop culture are pretty opaque to me, but watching the rise and fall of Taylor Swift over the last three or four years has been fascinating.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:16 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:16 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
I like Sady Doyle's take: "We ask women to do and be the impossible, and exult in their inevitable failure. Whether or not you like Swift isn’t the point — again, I don’t."
posted by rewil at 4:19 PM on August 31, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by rewil at 4:19 PM on August 31, 2017 [15 favorites]
Should have stuck with ripping off CHVRCHES.
posted by Artw at 4:25 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:25 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
I was so excited by the mysterious snake videos. I am not a Taylor Swift fan, but there was something about them that felt powerful and weird and dark and signaled a change of direction.
And then we get this song. And this video. It's just more of the same. It feels like it was overly workshopped until any genuine emotion was drained out of it.
I don't really know what I was expecting, honestly. But while I'd never call "Teardrops on My Guitar" a great song, it showed a certain amount of vulnerability and honesty that came across as surprisingly emotionally mature for a young teenager.
I wanted something savage. I wanted something that felt like it was coming from an adult woman. I just wanted her to trust her audience enough to maybe go to a new place, to grow a bit more with her. But I think she's so caught up in the idea of being "Taylor Swift" that she doesn't know how to just be Taylor Swift.
posted by darksong at 5:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
And then we get this song. And this video. It's just more of the same. It feels like it was overly workshopped until any genuine emotion was drained out of it.
I don't really know what I was expecting, honestly. But while I'd never call "Teardrops on My Guitar" a great song, it showed a certain amount of vulnerability and honesty that came across as surprisingly emotionally mature for a young teenager.
I wanted something savage. I wanted something that felt like it was coming from an adult woman. I just wanted her to trust her audience enough to maybe go to a new place, to grow a bit more with her. But I think she's so caught up in the idea of being "Taylor Swift" that she doesn't know how to just be Taylor Swift.
posted by darksong at 5:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
Sandy Doyle's piece is a head-scratcher. Swift was "untouchable" before 2017? I seem to remember people rolling their eyes about Swift's music from... well, as soon as her music hit speakers. Did I imagine that?
Women certainly get pilloried for displaying "authentic sexuality," and yet it seems to work for some musicians. Taste is subjective, but I'd venture that making broadly liked music to go along with that sexuality helps temper the backlash. I just listened to a twenty second peep of Swift's single in question and, oh man, that is a bad song. I have no critique of her sexuality, and yet I will not pay money to stream the full track.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:17 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Women certainly get pilloried for displaying "authentic sexuality," and yet it seems to work for some musicians. Taste is subjective, but I'd venture that making broadly liked music to go along with that sexuality helps temper the backlash. I just listened to a twenty second peep of Swift's single in question and, oh man, that is a bad song. I have no critique of her sexuality, and yet I will not pay money to stream the full track.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:17 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah I don't totally understand why everyone is suddenly souring on her now when this seems utterly consistent with what Taylor Swift's music has always been like, both good and bad parts? This feels more like cultural anxiety to have the hottest cosmic brain take than anything else.
posted by speicus at 5:24 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by speicus at 5:24 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
I actually really liked TFA. Read it yesterday and I'm still thinking about it. And I totally agree with many aspects of the many critiques of Taylor Swift.
And yet... I can't help but feel that our culture's shared obsession with cataloging and enumerating the faults and failures of an individual white woman isn't so much the epitome of 2017 as it is the epitome of 2016, and, I dunno -- maybe the reason why we find ourselves in the Trump era to begin with?
posted by the turtle's teeth at 5:31 PM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
And yet... I can't help but feel that our culture's shared obsession with cataloging and enumerating the faults and failures of an individual white woman isn't so much the epitome of 2017 as it is the epitome of 2016, and, I dunno -- maybe the reason why we find ourselves in the Trump era to begin with?
posted by the turtle's teeth at 5:31 PM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
Really? We're gonna do "criticism of Taylor Swift is why we have Trump"?
posted by palomar at 5:33 PM on August 31, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by palomar at 5:33 PM on August 31, 2017 [22 favorites]
And yet... I can't help but feel that our culture's shared obsession with cataloging and enumerating the faults and failures of an individual white woman isn't so much the epitome of 2017 as it is the epitome of 2016, and, I dunno -- maybe the reason why we find ourselves in the Trump era to begin with?
Haven't you heard? It's women's fault that patriarchy exists.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 5:36 PM on August 31, 2017 [15 favorites]
Haven't you heard? It's women's fault that patriarchy exists.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 5:36 PM on August 31, 2017 [15 favorites]
This left more than a sour taste in my mouth:
Taylor Swift and Ticketmaster launch controversial pay-to-play ticketing system
Taylor Swift and Ticketmaster launch controversial pay-to-play ticketing system
After fans pre-order the CD (from big box retailers like Target or from Swift’s store only—no indie record store support here), they’re informed that if they’d like a guarantee they’ll receive Reputation on the day it’s released they’ll have to fork over an extra $48.03 to ensure timely shipping, which brings the cost of one CD purchase to $63.03. It bears repeating: $63.03. For a single CD. This nonsensical move seems aimed to appease UPS, one of Swift’s many corporate partners for Reputation and the tour supporting it. Impoverished fans aren’t left out of the “fun” however, as they can watch the video for “Look What You Made Me Do” for a lower “boost” to their place in line.posted by naju at 5:45 PM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
“Your boosts are automatically applied for up to five views, per day. Watch every day and receive your boosts,” the site not-so-subtly advises. Fans can also flood their social media with posts about Tay Tay and her new record for further lower level boosts.
...
So basically, give Swift a lot of extra money or join her publicity team to ensure you have not a ticket—but simply a place in line for the opportunity to purchase a ticket. Whatever path the singer’s ticket-seeking acolytes are able to take, Swift benefits from a system clearly designed to squeeze every last dollar from her obsessive fanbase in a total perversion of what the Verified program is supposedly all about: the fans. What Swift and Ticketmaster have essentially done is alleviate the stress and anxiety of dealing with scalpers… by making Swift herself one. What else do you call someone who charges you more than the listed price for a ticket to a concert? Not only that, Swift is charging extra to ensure a place in line for tickets—not the tickets themselves.
Really? We're gonna do "criticism of Taylor Swift is why we have Trump"?
It's more like, white male journalists gotta get paid by jumping on the "why this lady sucks" bandwagon is why we have Trump. Which I feel like, is pretty indisputable?
Like I said, I agree with and appreciate many of the critiques I've read of Taylor Swift, particularly coming from women of color.
And like I also said, I found the article interesting and insightful.
But I also feel some discomfort with my enjoyment of it and with what seems to be this sort of cultural enjoyment of it as a whole. As someone who is still dealing with a lifetime of internalized misogyny, I feel like that's something worth considering.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 5:49 PM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
It's more like, white male journalists gotta get paid by jumping on the "why this lady sucks" bandwagon is why we have Trump. Which I feel like, is pretty indisputable?
Like I said, I agree with and appreciate many of the critiques I've read of Taylor Swift, particularly coming from women of color.
And like I also said, I found the article interesting and insightful.
But I also feel some discomfort with my enjoyment of it and with what seems to be this sort of cultural enjoyment of it as a whole. As someone who is still dealing with a lifetime of internalized misogyny, I feel like that's something worth considering.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 5:49 PM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
I feel like it's less about womanhood than it is about toxic white womanhood, which needs no handwringing or protection.
posted by palomar at 5:57 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by palomar at 5:57 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
I mean, one of the critical differences between Donald Trump and Taylor Swift is that Donald Trump is a powerful white man and Taylor Swift is a woman and a pop star.
We, as a culture, have a history of murdermouthing, ripping open, and taking in gleeful bad faith the every move and controversy of women pop stars (white and black), because it gives us a lovely little thrill to love and then destroy them. Powerful white men get the opposite treatment.
This article comes from the same place and interminable thinkpieces about the feminism of Ivanka and Melania. It is a distraction.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:00 PM on August 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
We, as a culture, have a history of murdermouthing, ripping open, and taking in gleeful bad faith the every move and controversy of women pop stars (white and black), because it gives us a lovely little thrill to love and then destroy them. Powerful white men get the opposite treatment.
This article comes from the same place and interminable thinkpieces about the feminism of Ivanka and Melania. It is a distraction.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:00 PM on August 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
Oh dear god. As if Taylor Swift is a powerless waif.
posted by palomar at 6:01 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by palomar at 6:01 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
That Sady Doyle take is a good read. I'm vacillating between thinking this is a great point, and thinking it's sneakily removing her from critique and agency no matter what she does.
posted by naju at 6:03 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
Swift is like Spears, in that both are ultimately the victims of the very patriarchal ideals they worked so hard to uphold. Spears played the sexy virgin and was crucified the moment she displayed authentic sexuality. Swift has been avoiding the ire we reserve for aggressive or sexual women by playing the role of the “nice girl.” In order to be acceptable to a mass public, she had to present a tightly controlled and unthreatening image, all wide-eyed gee-whiz friendliness, with no divisive opinions and no unruly rebellion or sexuality. Much of what people currently object to in Swift’s output springs directly from that role. Her refusal to take a political stand, for example, is directly linked to her “likability;” to pick a side would mean offending half of her listeners, so she can’t, even as her silence offends everyone. She’s also frequently accused of “playing the victim,” whereas the pose of victimhood is the only chance most “nice” women get to sound angry. Swift played the eternal 98-pound weakling, getting sand kicked in her face by bullies, in part because she’d risk being tagged a bitch if she ever admitted fault. She is who she is to avoid our hatred — but we hate her for being who we asked her to be.All of this kind of parallels way too much the still-raw debate over Clinton for me to feel comfortable with any of it or want to follow it too closely for enjoyment/rubbernecking purposes.
In the end, it’s those ideals, not individual women, who are to blame for our endless cycle of hype and downfall. We ask women to do and be the impossible, and exult in their inevitable failure. Whether or not you like Swift isn’t the point — again, I don’t. The point is that she worked tirelessly to embody the patriarchy’s idea of what a girl should be, she was all but untouchable, and the pattern of hype and backlash still took her out eventually. If it can happen to her, none of our golden girls are safe.
posted by naju at 6:03 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
Amazingly, patriarchy can play out against women who are powerful (particularly vis-a-vis other women) as well!
posted by praemunire at 6:04 PM on August 31, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 6:04 PM on August 31, 2017 [26 favorites]
Oh dear god. As if Taylor Swift is a powerless waif.
Oh, here we fucking go. Look. The fact that TS is white and rich influences, but does not negate, the fact that she is a woman. Privilege isn't like minmaxing in an RPG; multiple states exist at the same time. Pointing out the fundamental difference in how celebrity white women and celebrity white men are treated isn't saying that the celebrity white woman is a powerless fucking naif, it's saying that patriarchy still fucking exists.
On preview, what praemunire said.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:10 PM on August 31, 2017 [31 favorites]
Oh, here we fucking go. Look. The fact that TS is white and rich influences, but does not negate, the fact that she is a woman. Privilege isn't like minmaxing in an RPG; multiple states exist at the same time. Pointing out the fundamental difference in how celebrity white women and celebrity white men are treated isn't saying that the celebrity white woman is a powerless fucking naif, it's saying that patriarchy still fucking exists.
On preview, what praemunire said.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:10 PM on August 31, 2017 [31 favorites]
I imagine Taylor Swift as a tween, grabbing the hand of a less popular classmate and smashing it against their face over and over again while shouting "WHY ARE YOU HITTING YOURSELF!"
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
My 5 year old daughter watched the video and the second it ended she sang "Ooh, look what you made me do. I did a stinky poo. And I. Blame you.". Top that, music critics.
posted by w0mbat at 6:13 PM on August 31, 2017 [61 favorites]
posted by w0mbat at 6:13 PM on August 31, 2017 [61 favorites]
Clinton is way more of a Madonna, who is better at this shit.
posted by Artw at 6:22 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:22 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
What's Britney's first single after her last real hit? This is that one for TS. It's just not a good pop song.
TS has always been about delivering the goods. She's relatively blue collar like that. Git r done. This time it's about indulging her celebrity.
posted by lucasgonze at 6:26 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
TS has always been about delivering the goods. She's relatively blue collar like that. Git r done. This time it's about indulging her celebrity.
posted by lucasgonze at 6:26 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hey guys. I like taylor swift and i think this is her best song yet.
posted by 256 at 6:34 PM on August 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by 256 at 6:34 PM on August 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
*angry pitchfork mob chases 256 out of town*
posted by naju at 6:36 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by naju at 6:36 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
Up until the Kanye/Kim/taped phone convo thing, I've really come away from every criticism of Taylor Swift thinking less of the critic. Then that tape came out busting her and I thought, "Welp, guess she actually fucked up this time." I can't say I've been thrilled with 100% of her imagery in videos and such, but again, I've thought the criticism was really overblown.
And to be blunt, a lot of the heat she's gotten over the years has been super, super gross.
The new video is something else, though. Like I think somewhere in there (particularly the very end) she wants to throw in some self-mockery or self-critique, or maybe thinks it's in there all along, but it's just not.
So now I'm stuck in this place where I'm taking a legitimately negative view on what she's doing and where she's at, but I still think 90+% of the heat she's taken before now is still super gross. It's this weird spot of "Okay I think it's legit this time but that doesn't make the last few years of criticism any less stinky on its own merits." It's not a happy place.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:54 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
And to be blunt, a lot of the heat she's gotten over the years has been super, super gross.
The new video is something else, though. Like I think somewhere in there (particularly the very end) she wants to throw in some self-mockery or self-critique, or maybe thinks it's in there all along, but it's just not.
So now I'm stuck in this place where I'm taking a legitimately negative view on what she's doing and where she's at, but I still think 90+% of the heat she's taken before now is still super gross. It's this weird spot of "Okay I think it's legit this time but that doesn't make the last few years of criticism any less stinky on its own merits." It's not a happy place.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:54 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
Madonna's last real hit was Ray of Light, right?
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:04 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:04 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
How big a Madonna hit? I mean there was Four Minutes and Hung Up but they're not really quite on that level, on the other hand with her it's like cicada cycles.
posted by Artw at 7:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think the song is pretty catchy although not her best work. But what I really love is this video starting at 5:49.
posted by Mouse Army at 7:14 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Mouse Army at 7:14 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
Grumpybearbride and I say "frikka frikka four minutes!" on the daily.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:15 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:15 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Marching bands fucking love it.
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
The reason why you would compare Taylor to Trump* is because both of them are obsessed with revenge over petty slights that they will not get over for anything.
* Taylor Swift to run for president uh...whenever, I'm not gonna look up the year of the next available term after she turns 35.
Seriously, the woman is obsessed with starting feuds over stupid shit. We all know Kanye's a mouth-shooting-off idjit, but she keeps bringing this up over and over again. There's years of petty drama over backup dancers who are free to pick who they want to work for. And while lord knows everyone's probably had some bad relationships and/or dated some jerks, if every single guy you date is bad enough to write some angry song about, you gotta realize at some point YOU have something to do with that, either you have a broken picker or you might not be all sweetness and light yourself. "Blank Space" is the most accurate song she's ever done about herself. She's a Mean Girl. She gets meaner and meaner and this song is her announcement that she's all about the fucking rage over petty, petty shit. Woman, you're not Beatrix Kiddo and nobody "betrayed" you that badly. She is a vengeance demon from Buffy and I expect her face to vein out at any second.
In my real life, I have been having to deal with an equivalent of Taylor Swift, and I am not feeling sympathetic to her pain. I keep thinking, you know what? If you hadn't been such a colossal asshole to everyone, you wouldn't have the problems that you did. You dug your own hole. You wouldn't have gotten "betrayed" if you had just acted like a sane, reasonable person. If you'd shaken it off, as it were].
Oh yeah, and "Look what you made me do" is a thing abusers say.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:51 PM on August 31, 2017 [33 favorites]
* Taylor Swift to run for president uh...whenever, I'm not gonna look up the year of the next available term after she turns 35.
Seriously, the woman is obsessed with starting feuds over stupid shit. We all know Kanye's a mouth-shooting-off idjit, but she keeps bringing this up over and over again. There's years of petty drama over backup dancers who are free to pick who they want to work for. And while lord knows everyone's probably had some bad relationships and/or dated some jerks, if every single guy you date is bad enough to write some angry song about, you gotta realize at some point YOU have something to do with that, either you have a broken picker or you might not be all sweetness and light yourself. "Blank Space" is the most accurate song she's ever done about herself. She's a Mean Girl. She gets meaner and meaner and this song is her announcement that she's all about the fucking rage over petty, petty shit. Woman, you're not Beatrix Kiddo and nobody "betrayed" you that badly. She is a vengeance demon from Buffy and I expect her face to vein out at any second.
In my real life, I have been having to deal with an equivalent of Taylor Swift, and I am not feeling sympathetic to her pain. I keep thinking, you know what? If you hadn't been such a colossal asshole to everyone, you wouldn't have the problems that you did. You dug your own hole. You wouldn't have gotten "betrayed" if you had just acted like a sane, reasonable person. If you'd shaken it off, as it were].
Oh yeah, and "Look what you made me do" is a thing abusers say.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:51 PM on August 31, 2017 [33 favorites]
Taylor Swift (& co.) wrote some new lyrics to "I'm Too Sexy for My Hat." Not only is it the most watched video, but she is making many millions just from this, is now the most talked about woman in America at the moment, and has steamrolled and buried Katy Perry without even mentioning her
posted by knoyers at 7:54 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by knoyers at 7:54 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
Taylor Swift is also beloved of Nazis, which I used to think of as not really her fault, but hmmm.
posted by Artw at 8:12 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:12 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh man, I love this music video so much! It's hard to decide whether this or this was my favorite bit, but for sure this will go down as a classic moment in music video history, and who could forget this amazing slayage?
posted by supercrayon at 8:15 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by supercrayon at 8:15 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I came across It's Time for Taylor Swift to Denounce Her Neo Nazi Admirers and while it's not her fault at all that she's their fave, it is very disappointing that she hasn't used her massive platform to denounce.
posted by TwoStride at 8:16 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 8:16 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
(And I admit I lol'd at the facebook meme that had a still of her Lemonade ripoff with the caption "Ok ladies let's gentrification.")
posted by TwoStride at 8:18 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 8:18 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
From twitter: My daddy Minnesota, mama from North Dakota, You mix that Starbucks with that Mayonnaise MAKE A TRUMP SUPPORTAAAA
posted by supercrayon at 8:21 PM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by supercrayon at 8:21 PM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
Oh yeah, and "Look what you made me do" is a thing abusers say.
EXACTLY.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:25 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
EXACTLY.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:25 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't know why anyone believes any of her (or anyone's) "celebrity feuds" are in any way real. It's like reality TV, which I suppose is the point of TFA. It's all concocted theatrics. Kanye's people probably work it out with Swift's people, likely without any input from the stars themselves until it's time to storyboard it so they know what to do and say. Her music is produced by a virtually assembly line process involving dozens of songwriters and producers and video concept people and image consultants and hook doctors. What she is in "real life" has no bearing on this product.
It's mass market pop music with millions on the line. Every single dimension of its marketing is intentional. Taylor Swift is a character, and a Cindy Sherman-esque one. And here we are talking about her, taking her supposed feuds and dramas literally, falling for the simulation. Me too.
I begrudge her nothing. She's playing the game and getting rich, and neither art nor politics nor self-revelation were ever the point.
I admire Shania Twain's version of this. A working class girl from rural Ontario, she sold 50 million records and semi-retired to a castle in Switzerland where the law keeps paparazzi at bay (as Tina Turner also embraced). I think she's toured recently and she hasn't totally avoided the tabloids, but out of sight and out of mind is a hell of a way for a woman who grew up hunting her own meat to enjoy being rich as shit. Shania Twain DGAF. And on top of that she actually could sing her ass off, even if you couldn't tell from how she was produced and how calculated her songs were. (I have her first, pre-Mutt Lange record, as Eileen Twain -- straight on country and chops to equal Reba McEntire.)
I predict Taylor Swift will be castle shopping in Bern within 10 years. And America will find someone new to serve as the palimpsest of our cultural blend of toxic sexism and music that is the aesthetic equivalent of a can of Bud Light.
posted by spitbull at 8:40 PM on August 31, 2017 [19 favorites]
It's mass market pop music with millions on the line. Every single dimension of its marketing is intentional. Taylor Swift is a character, and a Cindy Sherman-esque one. And here we are talking about her, taking her supposed feuds and dramas literally, falling for the simulation. Me too.
I begrudge her nothing. She's playing the game and getting rich, and neither art nor politics nor self-revelation were ever the point.
I admire Shania Twain's version of this. A working class girl from rural Ontario, she sold 50 million records and semi-retired to a castle in Switzerland where the law keeps paparazzi at bay (as Tina Turner also embraced). I think she's toured recently and she hasn't totally avoided the tabloids, but out of sight and out of mind is a hell of a way for a woman who grew up hunting her own meat to enjoy being rich as shit. Shania Twain DGAF. And on top of that she actually could sing her ass off, even if you couldn't tell from how she was produced and how calculated her songs were. (I have her first, pre-Mutt Lange record, as Eileen Twain -- straight on country and chops to equal Reba McEntire.)
I predict Taylor Swift will be castle shopping in Bern within 10 years. And America will find someone new to serve as the palimpsest of our cultural blend of toxic sexism and music that is the aesthetic equivalent of a can of Bud Light.
posted by spitbull at 8:40 PM on August 31, 2017 [19 favorites]
Her music is produced by a virtually assembly line process involving dozens of songwriters and producers and video concept people and image consultants and hook doctors.
This is just flat out not true. She was the only songwriter on her third album, Speak Now. On her last album and big pop breakthrough 1989 there were 7 other co-writers on the entire album. She's co-written every song she sings.
I've always seen "they're only products of the industry" as a sexist criticism meant to discredit the women at the center of their music. Yes they have great teams but those teams usually aren't puppet masters, especially when you reach Taylor Swift levels of power.
posted by BeginAgain at 9:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [22 favorites]
This is just flat out not true. She was the only songwriter on her third album, Speak Now. On her last album and big pop breakthrough 1989 there were 7 other co-writers on the entire album. She's co-written every song she sings.
I've always seen "they're only products of the industry" as a sexist criticism meant to discredit the women at the center of their music. Yes they have great teams but those teams usually aren't puppet masters, especially when you reach Taylor Swift levels of power.
posted by BeginAgain at 9:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [22 favorites]
If nothing else, can we all agree that it's super, mega tasteless to release a diss track attacking a dude who has been pretty clearly keeping a low profile since his very public psychiatric hospitalization six months ago? Like, come on.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:40 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by Itaxpica at 9:40 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
The whole album drops on the tenth anniversary of aforementioned dude's mom's death, too.
posted by palomar at 9:45 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by palomar at 9:45 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
The only winners here are the dudes who made I'm Too Sexy, whose writing credit on this track (yes, actually) and the accompanying inevitable mountain of residuals probably came as a very nice surprise.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:55 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Itaxpica at 9:55 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
I hadn't heard this before today, but I can see this working extremely well as an Arya supercut backing track.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:10 AM on September 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:10 AM on September 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Whatever you got to say about Taylor Swift and this particular song, it's nice of her to provide the anime music video crowd with the perfect angsty wannabe badass track to set their Attack on Titan/Kabaneri mashups to, now using Linkin Park songs is in slightly bad taste.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:05 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by MartinWisse at 6:05 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
You should totally see the video Mouse Army linked to.
I assume Swift's video was supposed to be funny and over-the-top extravagant, or at least it worked that way for me.
The song (recitation?) is only fair to middling, but some of the lyrics are clever.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:06 AM on September 1, 2017
I assume Swift's video was supposed to be funny and over-the-top extravagant, or at least it worked that way for me.
The song (recitation?) is only fair to middling, but some of the lyrics are clever.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:06 AM on September 1, 2017
Really? We're gonna do "criticism of Taylor Swift is why we have Trump"?
Obviously, not. Neither Swift nor criticism of Swift have anything remotely to do with why we have Trump. And Swift is rich and getting richer and she can fuck off to Bern any time she wants. And what I've seen/heard of the new album seems like kind of an embarrassing mess, aesthetically—and I'm inclined to like that kind of thing. And her feuds are stupid and she or her image handlers can't seem to decide if she wants to be a Golden Girl or a Mean Girl ... and I could go on, probably.
But despite all that a lot of the hot takes on any of Taylor's myriad faults do remind me of the raft of shit that Clinton took last year. The "maybe she's a nazi? why won't she denounce nazis" is absurd and gross and even Mark Harris' central point requires the reader to believe that passive-aggressive behavior and celebrity feuds are somehow unique to the Trump era. Rightfully, Harris' headline—'Taylor Swift’s ‘Look What You Made Me Do’ Is the First Pure Piece of Trump-Era Pop Art'—should be flipped around. Our shame isn't that a pop star is choosing to act out a "fame-enthralled solipsism,"—or no very great shame since that's practically the definition of "pop star"—it's that we have a President who can't imagine anything beyond being one.
In regards to the place of Taylor Swift in the national conversation, I think Justin Charity's piece, Blank Space: Taylor Will Not—and Should Not—Solve Your Donald Trump Anxiety is more to the point:
Obviously, not. Neither Swift nor criticism of Swift have anything remotely to do with why we have Trump. And Swift is rich and getting richer and she can fuck off to Bern any time she wants. And what I've seen/heard of the new album seems like kind of an embarrassing mess, aesthetically—and I'm inclined to like that kind of thing. And her feuds are stupid and she or her image handlers can't seem to decide if she wants to be a Golden Girl or a Mean Girl ... and I could go on, probably.
But despite all that a lot of the hot takes on any of Taylor's myriad faults do remind me of the raft of shit that Clinton took last year. The "maybe she's a nazi? why won't she denounce nazis" is absurd and gross and even Mark Harris' central point requires the reader to believe that passive-aggressive behavior and celebrity feuds are somehow unique to the Trump era. Rightfully, Harris' headline—'Taylor Swift’s ‘Look What You Made Me Do’ Is the First Pure Piece of Trump-Era Pop Art'—should be flipped around. Our shame isn't that a pop star is choosing to act out a "fame-enthralled solipsism,"—or no very great shame since that's practically the definition of "pop star"—it's that we have a President who can't imagine anything beyond being one.
In regards to the place of Taylor Swift in the national conversation, I think Justin Charity's piece, Blank Space: Taylor Will Not—and Should Not—Solve Your Donald Trump Anxiety is more to the point:
Which brings us back to Swift, whose blank political canvas has become the latest treacherous frontier for this dystopian kayfabe republic. Writing for Vulture on Wednesday, Mark Harris described Swift’s new single, “Look What You Made Me Do,” as a bratty anthem for the petulant and blameless, a lesson in modern presidential politics. “Whether or not she is a Trump supporter,” Harris wrote, “she is an embodiment of Trump culture.” Swift and Trump are similar in some basic, behavioral ways—they perform, they’re petty, they like gold, they’re both (close to) blonde—but they are mainly comparable as two celebrities whose political credibility the media has spun from thin air. There’s no longer any meaningful distinction between their professions; they are both qualified, in a sense, to do it all. Modern politics invites us to think of Taylor Swift, the singer, and Donald Trump, the president, in similar terms, comparable to one another in credibility and talents. In this dismal paradigm, critics—and, terrifyingly, the public they serve—make no distinctions between a politician’s platform and a pop star’s platform. They lose all sense of the difference between civic life and fandom. That’s the dead end. That’s the trap.posted by octobersurprise at 7:19 AM on September 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
I am generally a fan of TS's music and especially loved 1989. This song is a bit meh musically and a bit over the top lyrically for me but whatever you want to say about it or TS more generally I think the fact that she has positioned herself in such a way that no one seems to be able to have no opinion of her or keep from spouting their opinions of her is brilliant in its own way. She is constantly the symbol of debate about the intersection of pretty much every hot button topic - gender, race, fame, wealth, privilege, celebrity responsibility, aesthetics, politics - the fact that we as a culture but especially we here on mefi seem to use TS as the lens through which we critique more or less our entire culture makes her a pretty fascinating person. Is she a child or a genius? No one knows. It's amazing. Maybe she's neither. Maybe she's just a flawed individual who is really good at writing catchy songs and has never really known a life outside the spotlight. I get why people hate her and I get why people hate that people hate her. We blame her for creating a bunch of drama and writing an album about her reputation and yet we, her listeners and non-listeners alike, have spurned this with our constant debating about and critiquing of her reputation and her drama. This is all a bit of a feedback loop.
I have personally become comfortable with holding a multitude of views on TS at once. Hey, let's not forget about her counter-suing the guy who assaulted her for $1 and doing a fucking bang-up job on the witness stand. That was awesome! Her seemingly continual pettiness and playing the victim issues not so much. The fact that Breitbart loves her for some reason is troubling but hardly evidence that she is indicative of sentiments that led to the current political crisis. Her songs are benign enough that anyone can relate to them in some capacity and find whatever meaning in them they choose. They're like the Bible or the Aeneid. It's what makes them terrible and genius at the same time.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:40 AM on September 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
I have personally become comfortable with holding a multitude of views on TS at once. Hey, let's not forget about her counter-suing the guy who assaulted her for $1 and doing a fucking bang-up job on the witness stand. That was awesome! Her seemingly continual pettiness and playing the victim issues not so much. The fact that Breitbart loves her for some reason is troubling but hardly evidence that she is indicative of sentiments that led to the current political crisis. Her songs are benign enough that anyone can relate to them in some capacity and find whatever meaning in them they choose. They're like the Bible or the Aeneid. It's what makes them terrible and genius at the same time.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:40 AM on September 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
She should do more stuff with Wayne Coyne
posted by thelonius at 7:57 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 7:57 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Peasants were having a hard time
Traditional values were under attack
Sandy Doyle's piece is a head-scratcher.
The middle class was growing
posted by kenko at 8:17 AM on September 1, 2017
Traditional values were under attack
Sandy Doyle's piece is a head-scratcher.
The middle class was growing
posted by kenko at 8:17 AM on September 1, 2017
> Up until the Kanye/Kim/taped phone convo thing, I've really come away from every criticism of Taylor Swift thinking less of the critic. Then that tape came out busting her and I thought, "Welp, guess she actually fucked up this time."
I had the opposite reaction. I was glad when I heard that Taylor cleared the verse because it was a big wtf on an otherwise awesome track (with a great video from Aziz Ansari), but then I read the transcript and that's not what I got.
For anyone who hasn't read it, here's the section from the call:
It could be an honest misunderstanding. Kanye might have believed "might still have sex" was the only part Taylor object to -- or, given that Kanye was changing the album up to and through the release of TLoP ("Ima fix wolves"), maybe "might still have sex" was the whole verse at the time and "that bitch" was added later, possibly even inspired by them talking about fame on the call.
In that case, blowback from Taylor would be especially rough from Kanye's perspective because he's the one who reached out to make sure everything was cool, and because for the last decade people who hate him reflexively have used one incident at an awards ceremony as an excuse to crap all over him and his career. I can easily see the dude recording that call not just because he's an instagram celeb but because so many people think of him only and forever as that mean black man who was so threatening to that nice white girl.
Anyway, all of this was hashed out in the last thread. But it's weird how persistent the "Taylor said it was okay and then she lied about it" meme has been. It's gross that when Taylor posts:
posted by postcommunism at 8:24 AM on September 1, 2017 [15 favorites]
I had the opposite reaction. I was glad when I heard that Taylor cleared the verse because it was a big wtf on an otherwise awesome track (with a great video from Aziz Ansari), but then I read the transcript and that's not what I got.
For anyone who hasn't read it, here's the section from the call:
KW: For all my Southside n***** that know me best, I feel like me and Taylor might still have sex.which ended up in the song (Genius, heavy page warning) as:
TS: I'm like this close to over exposure...
KW: Oh well this one, I think this is a really cool thing to have, uh...
TS: I know, I mean it's like a compliment kind of.
I feel like me and Taylor might still have sexwhich has a very different tone.
Why? I made that bitch famous (Goddamn)
I made that bitch famous
It could be an honest misunderstanding. Kanye might have believed "might still have sex" was the only part Taylor object to -- or, given that Kanye was changing the album up to and through the release of TLoP ("Ima fix wolves"), maybe "might still have sex" was the whole verse at the time and "that bitch" was added later, possibly even inspired by them talking about fame on the call.
In that case, blowback from Taylor would be especially rough from Kanye's perspective because he's the one who reached out to make sure everything was cool, and because for the last decade people who hate him reflexively have used one incident at an awards ceremony as an excuse to crap all over him and his career. I can easily see the dude recording that call not just because he's an instagram celeb but because so many people think of him only and forever as that mean black man who was so threatening to that nice white girl.
Anyway, all of this was hashed out in the last thread. But it's weird how persistent the "Taylor said it was okay and then she lied about it" meme has been. It's gross that when Taylor posts:
Where is the video of Kanye telling me he was going to call me 'that bitch' in his song? It doesn't exist because it never happened. You don't get to control someone's emotional response to being called 'that bitch' in front of the entire world.the dang internet rides in on a wave of snake emoticons to yell "gotcha!" and Vulture calls her response "fame-enthralled solipsism."
posted by postcommunism at 8:24 AM on September 1, 2017 [15 favorites]
I just wonder why we treat female pop stars like Highlander characters, "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" I mean, I don't have strong feelings over TS one way or the other, but I do feel like the culture broadly only crowns one at a time, like when Rhianna wore the crown, people were hating Lady Gaga, then Beyonce ascended and people were all Rhianna plagiarized her music vid.... I never see this same shit with male singers.
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 9:20 AM on September 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 9:20 AM on September 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
I think the fact that she has positioned herself in such a way that no one seems to be able to have no opinion of her or keep from spouting their opinions of her is brilliant in its own way.
I think there are a lot of people who have no opinion of her, or at least no strong opinion other than thumbs up or down on any given song.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:24 AM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think there are a lot of people who have no opinion of her, or at least no strong opinion other than thumbs up or down on any given song.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:24 AM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
The fact that Breitbart loves her for some reason
I mean, it's not some big mystery. White nationalists love her because she's an angelic, Aryan-looking white woman who has never made any public statements suggesting that she's not on their side, which allows them to project whatever they want on to her. Look, she's basically the only celebrity this side of Kid Rock who didn't endorse Hilary, instead making a point of being decidedly non-partisan.
Do I believe that she's a Trump supporter and/or neo-Nazi? No, I honestly don't. I just think her politics (or pointed lack thereof) are the natural end-result of relentless focus-grouping aimed at not alienating anyone who might be willing to buy a record. But you don't get to flirt with that kind of constituency and then play the "well I never asked for this!" card when it catches up with you.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:29 AM on September 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
I mean, it's not some big mystery. White nationalists love her because she's an angelic, Aryan-looking white woman who has never made any public statements suggesting that she's not on their side, which allows them to project whatever they want on to her. Look, she's basically the only celebrity this side of Kid Rock who didn't endorse Hilary, instead making a point of being decidedly non-partisan.
Do I believe that she's a Trump supporter and/or neo-Nazi? No, I honestly don't. I just think her politics (or pointed lack thereof) are the natural end-result of relentless focus-grouping aimed at not alienating anyone who might be willing to buy a record. But you don't get to flirt with that kind of constituency and then play the "well I never asked for this!" card when it catches up with you.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:29 AM on September 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
This is just flat out not true. She was the only songwriter on her third album, Speak Now.
Sorry, but it flat out is true of most of her work. Many contributors are uncredited. And it's been a while since her third album. I didn't say she didn't participate, and this system is every bit the same for male pop artists, so I don't think it is a sexist point. It gets trotted out historically in sexist ways, but it's no less true of, say, Justin Bieber.
I recently served on a dissertation committee for a PHD diss by a professional songwriter on the current organization of the songwriter business in Nashville. Even after a lifetime as a popular musician and 30 odd years as a scholar of the stuff, I was amazed at how industrial the process has become.
So yeah I am sure Taylor Swift comes up with some of her own song concepts and melodies. She is talented as a singer and a writer, like many other much less successful artists. But she is surrounded by an apparatus that would take your breath away with its complexity and size. Among others things, writing credits determine who gets paid and whose songs get recorded. It is shockingly common in Nashville (at least) for major artists to be credited with writing a song for which (this really happens) they met once with the team and came up with very vague idea in conference, flew back to partying in LA or doing TV appearances and left it to the pros to finish it up -- who at this point specialize in particular parts of songs (hook, video concept, beat, verse continuity, etc.). The enterprise is very cynical and efficient.
posted by spitbull at 9:46 AM on September 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
Sorry, but it flat out is true of most of her work. Many contributors are uncredited. And it's been a while since her third album. I didn't say she didn't participate, and this system is every bit the same for male pop artists, so I don't think it is a sexist point. It gets trotted out historically in sexist ways, but it's no less true of, say, Justin Bieber.
I recently served on a dissertation committee for a PHD diss by a professional songwriter on the current organization of the songwriter business in Nashville. Even after a lifetime as a popular musician and 30 odd years as a scholar of the stuff, I was amazed at how industrial the process has become.
So yeah I am sure Taylor Swift comes up with some of her own song concepts and melodies. She is talented as a singer and a writer, like many other much less successful artists. But she is surrounded by an apparatus that would take your breath away with its complexity and size. Among others things, writing credits determine who gets paid and whose songs get recorded. It is shockingly common in Nashville (at least) for major artists to be credited with writing a song for which (this really happens) they met once with the team and came up with very vague idea in conference, flew back to partying in LA or doing TV appearances and left it to the pros to finish it up -- who at this point specialize in particular parts of songs (hook, video concept, beat, verse continuity, etc.). The enterprise is very cynical and efficient.
posted by spitbull at 9:46 AM on September 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
I have no thoughts about Taylor Swift and did not know that there was all this drama around her. I liked the article because of the boxing-match discussion and the phrases "lubed millitarism" and "post-shame."
posted by staggering termagant at 10:19 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by staggering termagant at 10:19 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
people who need to tell everyone they don't have opinions about TS are almost worse than people who have strong opinions about TS i mean if you don't care about TS why u here
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:38 AM on September 1, 2017
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:38 AM on September 1, 2017
I said I don't feel strongly about her one way or the other but do wonder where all the thinky pieces about say Justin Timberlake or Ed Sheerhan or Bruno Mars or John Legend or, or, or, are........that's why I popped in
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 10:43 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 10:43 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I personally think the MetaFilter discussions about Swift and how those discussions intersect with race and feminism are much more interesting than Swift, herself.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:45 AM on September 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Room 641-A at 10:45 AM on September 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
Meanwhile: Kitty's first full length album is pretty good and kind of flying under the radar. Not finding any reviews of it in the major press on a quick Google.
(Jesus, "OK Cupid" was 5 years ago?)
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:47 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
(Jesus, "OK Cupid" was 5 years ago?)
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:47 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
There might not be FPPs (which says more about the Metafilter FPP-making types, perhaps), but there are discussions (and have been in the GoT threads) about hate for Ed Sheerhan and what the charting of his hits says about the state of pop music today, and there have been robust and long-running discussions in other venues about Bruno Mars' racial identity, so...
posted by TwoStride at 10:52 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by TwoStride at 10:52 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Why are people treating the fact that Taylor Swift took advantage of, and partly orchestrated, a situation where she appeared to be the hapless porcelain victim of an evil black man, and the fact that Taylor Swift is an icon amongst white supremacists as some kind of coincidence? Of course she has a responsibility to denounce them. She spent years playing up to them.
Up until the Kanye/Kim/taped phone convo thing, I've really come away from every criticism of Taylor Swift thinking less of the critic.
Yeah, I feel like I read that one about fifteen times on Metafilter alone. And y'all wonder why there's a backlash. Tons of black people have been saying how problematic she is since forever but god forbid anyone, anywhere, should ever criticise a white woman without video evidence.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 11:35 AM on September 1, 2017 [11 favorites]
Up until the Kanye/Kim/taped phone convo thing, I've really come away from every criticism of Taylor Swift thinking less of the critic.
Yeah, I feel like I read that one about fifteen times on Metafilter alone. And y'all wonder why there's a backlash. Tons of black people have been saying how problematic she is since forever but god forbid anyone, anywhere, should ever criticise a white woman without video evidence.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 11:35 AM on September 1, 2017 [11 favorites]
I'd be surprised if I were them too, given that their song--including the rhythm that they're being credited for--is based (intentionally or not) on the guitar riff in the Temptations' "My Girl" to a much greater extent than Swift's song is based on theirs.
It actually took the guitar from Third Stone From The Sun, by Jimmy Hendrix, and Hendrix got a writing credit on I'm Too Sexy for it after the fact. We just had a thread about it.
posted by Itaxpica at 12:27 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
It actually took the guitar from Third Stone From The Sun, by Jimmy Hendrix, and Hendrix got a writing credit on I'm Too Sexy for it after the fact. We just had a thread about it.
posted by Itaxpica at 12:27 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
My three year old, who LOVES Taylor Swift, now specifically requests "old Taylor songs" because she doesn't like the new one. Which means my three year old officially has better musical taste than my husband.
posted by lydhre at 12:28 PM on September 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 12:28 PM on September 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
and the fact that Taylor Swift is an icon amongst white supremacists as some kind of coincidence? Of course she has a responsibility to denounce them. She spent years playing up to them.
It wasn't Taylor Swift who endorsed the guy all the white supremacists voted for and then publicly met with him at his home after the election.
No, I don't think Swift's failure to denounce white supremacists is indicative of any support for them, any more you can infer from some celebrity's failure to denounce stalkers or serial killers a similar support for such. Or that the failure of anyone to publicly denounce violence means they deserve it when violence is done to them. That's just nuts.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:29 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
It wasn't Taylor Swift who endorsed the guy all the white supremacists voted for and then publicly met with him at his home after the election.
No, I don't think Swift's failure to denounce white supremacists is indicative of any support for them, any more you can infer from some celebrity's failure to denounce stalkers or serial killers a similar support for such. Or that the failure of anyone to publicly denounce violence means they deserve it when violence is done to them. That's just nuts.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:29 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
The weird thing about Swift is her image and music is still very asexual and juvenile even though she'll be 28 this year. I enjoyed 1989 because I thought she was finally starting to push past that image but if this first song is anything to go by, it will be more of the same.
Look at the music Rhianna and Adele put out now, both about the same age as her. How many more years of sexless teenage angst music could Taylor have in her? Is she really going to be thirty something years old singing about cute boys and those girls who were mean to her? She's not going to join Adele in trying to make adult contemporary music for the 21st century, she's not going to go back to her country roots, she's not going to try making pop music an adult over the age of 25 wouldn't be embarassed to listen to?
I guess I'm wondering when the pivot will come.
posted by asteria at 12:42 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Look at the music Rhianna and Adele put out now, both about the same age as her. How many more years of sexless teenage angst music could Taylor have in her? Is she really going to be thirty something years old singing about cute boys and those girls who were mean to her? She's not going to join Adele in trying to make adult contemporary music for the 21st century, she's not going to go back to her country roots, she's not going to try making pop music an adult over the age of 25 wouldn't be embarassed to listen to?
I guess I'm wondering when the pivot will come.
posted by asteria at 12:42 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
The weird thing about Swift is her image and music is still very asexual and juvenile even though she'll be 28 this year.
Wait, what? It hasn't been asexual and juvenile in years.
posted by Justinian at 1:27 PM on September 1, 2017
Wait, what? It hasn't been asexual and juvenile in years.
posted by Justinian at 1:27 PM on September 1, 2017
Copyright culture truly is wild.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 1:34 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 1:34 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Or that the failure of anyone to publicly denounce violence means they deserve it when violence is done to them.
When violence is done to them, them meaning Taylor Swift? I mean, this lady has millions of girls of colour in her home country and around the world who are at risk of actual violence from white supremacy and who adore her and make her rich and who she won't speak up for in any way. Meanwhile Nazis think she's just great. How is she the victim in this situation?
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 2:13 PM on September 1, 2017
When violence is done to them, them meaning Taylor Swift? I mean, this lady has millions of girls of colour in her home country and around the world who are at risk of actual violence from white supremacy and who adore her and make her rich and who she won't speak up for in any way. Meanwhile Nazis think she's just great. How is she the victim in this situation?
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 2:13 PM on September 1, 2017
How is she the victim in this situation?
In the same way that Jodie Foster was a victim of John Hinckley? Look, I don't care to adjudicate Swift's feuds. And I don't feel the need to hold her up as a role model or even argue that her apolitical stance is what she should be doing. But until there's evidence that she's actually a white supremacist, or catering to them, or even "ironically" catering to them, then I think we can say that she is no more a "white supremacist" than Jodie Foster wanted to kill a President.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:40 PM on September 1, 2017
In the same way that Jodie Foster was a victim of John Hinckley? Look, I don't care to adjudicate Swift's feuds. And I don't feel the need to hold her up as a role model or even argue that her apolitical stance is what she should be doing. But until there's evidence that she's actually a white supremacist, or catering to them, or even "ironically" catering to them, then I think we can say that she is no more a "white supremacist" than Jodie Foster wanted to kill a President.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:40 PM on September 1, 2017
So yeah I am sure Taylor Swift comes up with some of her own song concepts and melodies. She is talented as a singer and a writer, like many other much less successful artists. But she is surrounded by an apparatus that would take your breath away with its complexity and size. Among others things, writing credits determine who gets paid and whose songs get recorded. It is shockingly common in Nashville (at least) for major artists to be credited with writing a song for which (this really happens) they met once with the team and came up with very vague idea in conference, flew back to partying in LA or doing TV appearances and left it to the pros to finish it up -- who at this point specialize in particular parts of songs (hook, video concept, beat, verse continuity, etc.). The enterprise is very cynical and efficient.
Yes, there are lots of occasions where an artist gets a co-writing credit for changing a word or line. I don't think that happens for all of Taylor's songs (or any, really).
She has a very specific songwriting style that millions of fans know and love. You can listen and it's obvious that the same young woman that who wrote Tim McGraw over a decade ago also wrote Wildest Dreams, the same person who wrote Picture to Burn also wrote We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together. I guess you're suggesting that a shadowy group of songwriters has been actually writing her material since day 1, before she was famous, who don't care about being credited or receiving royalties, but I just find that kinda stupid and unrealistic with nothing to back it up. You can be popular and a capable musician, it is possible.
And yes, like I said, these pop stars do have a huge team surrounding them. But you can look at Britney in 2007 or Lady Gaga in 2014 to see how it works out when the star isn't leading them.
posted by BeginAgain at 3:49 PM on September 1, 2017
Yes, there are lots of occasions where an artist gets a co-writing credit for changing a word or line. I don't think that happens for all of Taylor's songs (or any, really).
She has a very specific songwriting style that millions of fans know and love. You can listen and it's obvious that the same young woman that who wrote Tim McGraw over a decade ago also wrote Wildest Dreams, the same person who wrote Picture to Burn also wrote We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together. I guess you're suggesting that a shadowy group of songwriters has been actually writing her material since day 1, before she was famous, who don't care about being credited or receiving royalties, but I just find that kinda stupid and unrealistic with nothing to back it up. You can be popular and a capable musician, it is possible.
And yes, like I said, these pop stars do have a huge team surrounding them. But you can look at Britney in 2007 or Lady Gaga in 2014 to see how it works out when the star isn't leading them.
posted by BeginAgain at 3:49 PM on September 1, 2017
people who need to tell everyone they don't have opinions about TS are almost worse than people who have strong opinions about TS i mean if you don't care about TS why u here
I just like to say things on the internet
I mean, I don't have children or pets
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:08 PM on September 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
I just like to say things on the internet
I mean, I don't have children or pets
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:08 PM on September 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
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posted by TwoStride at 3:22 PM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]