The Tiny Country that Feeds the World
September 5, 2017 6:24 PM Subscribe
"The Netherlands is a small, densely populated country, with more than 1,300 inhabitants per square mile. It’s bereft of almost every resource long thought to be necessary for large-scale agriculture. Yet it’s the globe’s number two exporter of food as measured by value, second only to the United States, which has 270 times its landmass. How on Earth have the Dutch done it?"
Frank Viviano of National Geographic gives us the scoop. Check out the stunning photos by Luca Locatelli as well.
"Banks of what appear to be gargantuan mirrors stretch across the countryside, glinting when the sun shines and glowing with eerie interior light when night falls. They are Holland’s extraordinary greenhouse complexes, some of them covering 175 acres.
These climate-controlled farms enable a country located a scant thousand miles from the Arctic Circle to be a global leader in exports of a fair-weather fruit: the tomato. The Dutch are also the world’s top exporter of potatoes and onions and the second largest exporter of vegetables overall in terms of value. More than a third of all global trade in vegetable seeds originates in the Netherlands."
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"The global average yield of potatoes per acre is about nine tons. Van den Borne’s fields reliably produce more than 20.
That copious output is made all the more remarkable by the other side of the balance sheet: inputs. Almost two decades ago, the Dutch made a national commitment to sustainable agriculture under the rallying cry “Twice as much food using half as many resources.” Since 2000, van den Borne and many of his fellow farmers have reduced dependence on water for key crops by as much as 90 percent. They’ve almost completely eliminated the use of chemical pesticides on plants in greenhouses, and since 2009 Dutch poultry and livestock producers have cut their use of antibiotics by as much as 60 percent."
Frank Viviano of National Geographic gives us the scoop. Check out the stunning photos by Luca Locatelli as well.
"Banks of what appear to be gargantuan mirrors stretch across the countryside, glinting when the sun shines and glowing with eerie interior light when night falls. They are Holland’s extraordinary greenhouse complexes, some of them covering 175 acres.
These climate-controlled farms enable a country located a scant thousand miles from the Arctic Circle to be a global leader in exports of a fair-weather fruit: the tomato. The Dutch are also the world’s top exporter of potatoes and onions and the second largest exporter of vegetables overall in terms of value. More than a third of all global trade in vegetable seeds originates in the Netherlands."
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"The global average yield of potatoes per acre is about nine tons. Van den Borne’s fields reliably produce more than 20.
That copious output is made all the more remarkable by the other side of the balance sheet: inputs. Almost two decades ago, the Dutch made a national commitment to sustainable agriculture under the rallying cry “Twice as much food using half as many resources.” Since 2000, van den Borne and many of his fellow farmers have reduced dependence on water for key crops by as much as 90 percent. They’ve almost completely eliminated the use of chemical pesticides on plants in greenhouses, and since 2009 Dutch poultry and livestock producers have cut their use of antibiotics by as much as 60 percent."
This is why we can have nice things.
posted by unliteral at 7:00 PM on September 5, 2017 [47 favorites]
posted by unliteral at 7:00 PM on September 5, 2017 [47 favorites]
Things like this are shining examples of what the US could do it if was just less focused on the quick and easy way of doing things. I'm not saying greenhouses as far as the eye can see but the amount of care and thought that goes into systems like these compared to the biggering and biggering that is the norm and required behavior here is just staggering.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:16 PM on September 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:16 PM on September 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
The glass sea. As a succulent collector I am insanely jealous of Cok Grootsholten's collection in the Netherlands.
posted by srboisvert at 7:17 PM on September 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 7:17 PM on September 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Tiny, Peace-Torn Country Rife With Prosperity
posted by theodolite at 7:19 PM on September 5, 2017 [88 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 7:19 PM on September 5, 2017 [88 favorites]
Is there any good research out there on why the Netherlands have done so well as a country over the last couple hundred years? Surely someone has a good response to the reactionaries who'd point to ethnic homogeneity, a monarchy, and the Protestant work ethic?
posted by Wretch729 at 7:22 PM on September 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 7:22 PM on September 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Persistent threat of flooding forcing society to grapple with reality, and support social structures and expertise that keep flooding at bay?
posted by anthill at 7:29 PM on September 5, 2017 [44 favorites]
posted by anthill at 7:29 PM on September 5, 2017 [44 favorites]
And a lot less greenhouse destroying weather than most of the US has.
posted by fshgrl at 7:38 PM on September 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 7:38 PM on September 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
Tulips and daffodils are plants that suck out all the nutrients from a field, having an incredibly valuable crop that is hard to grow is perhaps an object lesson in ecology and farm husbandry.
posted by sammyo at 7:46 PM on September 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 7:46 PM on September 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
These figures say a lot more about geography and borders than food production. Of course nobody is shipping potatoes and onions across continents because that would be uneconomical. Dutch fruit and veg exports are mostly going to Belgium, Germany, France, and the UK, a few hundred miles away. If you were calculate California food exports*, you'd get even bigger numbers, but since it's not international export, it's not counted in this comparison.
* If you do find California export numbers, be aware that they're probably talking about California international exports, which would exclude the food we "export" to other states (i.e. the majority of it).
posted by ryanrs at 7:56 PM on September 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
* If you do find California export numbers, be aware that they're probably talking about California international exports, which would exclude the food we "export" to other states (i.e. the majority of it).
posted by ryanrs at 7:56 PM on September 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
And a lot less greenhouse destroying weather than most of the US has.
Given the major weather events of last week and now, this is no small point.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 8:02 PM on September 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Given the major weather events of last week and now, this is no small point.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 8:02 PM on September 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Of course nobody is shipping potatoes and onions across continents because that would be uneconomical. Dutch fruit and veg exports are mostly going to Belgium, Germany, France, and the UK, a few hundred miles away
I'm not sure if that's correct. Transport is actually extremely cheap.
For example, we're shipping over 40% of our potatoes to outside Europe, like America, Asia and Africa.
posted by Djinh at 8:06 PM on September 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
I'm not sure if that's correct. Transport is actually extremely cheap.
For example, we're shipping over 40% of our potatoes to outside Europe, like America, Asia and Africa.
posted by Djinh at 8:06 PM on September 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
Their yield numbers are also misleading in that they don't compare like-with-like. Yes, the Netherlands has super-high national-average tomato yield, but that's because their weather sucks and it's all grown greenhouses. The runners-up in that chart are Spain, the US, Morocco, and Portugal. They have tomato-appropriate climates, so most of their crop is grown outdoors. If instead of national average yield, the article compared greenhouse-only tomato yield, that huge difference would probably disappear.
The other yield number in the article is for potatoes: 20t/acre vs. the world average of 9t/acre. That world average is going to be dominated by lower yield agricultural practices in China, Russia, and India. In more highly developed countries, 20t/acre is the norm.
posted by ryanrs at 8:15 PM on September 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
The other yield number in the article is for potatoes: 20t/acre vs. the world average of 9t/acre. That world average is going to be dominated by lower yield agricultural practices in China, Russia, and India. In more highly developed countries, 20t/acre is the norm.
posted by ryanrs at 8:15 PM on September 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
For example, we're shipping over 40% of our potatoes to outside Europe, like America, Asia and Africa.
Wait a sec, are you guys even net potato exporters? It sort of looks like the Netherlands imports a ton of food potatoes, and exports a lot of higher-$ seed potatoes.
posted by ryanrs at 8:25 PM on September 5, 2017
Wait a sec, are you guys even net potato exporters? It sort of looks like the Netherlands imports a ton of food potatoes, and exports a lot of higher-$ seed potatoes.
posted by ryanrs at 8:25 PM on September 5, 2017
Potatogate.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:29 PM on September 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:29 PM on September 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I always get suspicious about pieces that have absolutely no negative parts:
1. Standard Internet consensus is that the tomatoes are terrible tasting. Germans have a nickname for dutch tomatoes: Wasserbombe, or water bomb.
2. There is something wrong with these numbers. The list of largest producing countries is way different. In fact the Netherlands only appears on one fruit, and that's in fifth! Looking around there is some discussion that things are imported in the port at Rotterdam, processed a little, have a EU sticker slapped on them, and then exported.
3. They should be quite proud of their technology for producing higher yields. It makes up a large portion of their agriculture export.
posted by zabuni at 8:31 PM on September 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
1. Standard Internet consensus is that the tomatoes are terrible tasting. Germans have a nickname for dutch tomatoes: Wasserbombe, or water bomb.
2. There is something wrong with these numbers. The list of largest producing countries is way different. In fact the Netherlands only appears on one fruit, and that's in fifth! Looking around there is some discussion that things are imported in the port at Rotterdam, processed a little, have a EU sticker slapped on them, and then exported.
3. They should be quite proud of their technology for producing higher yields. It makes up a large portion of their agriculture export.
posted by zabuni at 8:31 PM on September 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
zabuni: "Standard Internet consensus is that the tomatoes are terrible tasting. Germans have a nickname for dutch tomatoes: Wasserbombe, or water bomb."
Are there any commercial greenhouse tomatoes that actually taste good? Hothouse tomatoes are grown here (well within a couple hundred kilometres of where I'm sitting) and are pretty well the only option for fresh in the winter. Except they taste so bad and have such poor texture compared to our backyard grown that we don't even bother buying them.
posted by Mitheral at 8:36 PM on September 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are there any commercial greenhouse tomatoes that actually taste good? Hothouse tomatoes are grown here (well within a couple hundred kilometres of where I'm sitting) and are pretty well the only option for fresh in the winter. Except they taste so bad and have such poor texture compared to our backyard grown that we don't even bother buying them.
posted by Mitheral at 8:36 PM on September 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
It sort of looks like the Netherlands imports a ton of food potatoes, and exports a lot of higher-$ seed potatoes
It seems you're right. That'll teach me to research import/export figures at 4am...
posted by Djinh at 8:37 PM on September 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
It seems you're right. That'll teach me to research import/export figures at 4am...
posted by Djinh at 8:37 PM on September 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are there any commercial greenhouse tomatoes that actually taste good?
In my experience, the smaller they are the better they taste from a greenhouse. So grape/cherry tomatoes first, then those smaller perfectly round red ones on the vine in the clamshell, then roma/paste, and anything larger than that is pointless. The little ones are not, in winter, as good as my patio minis, but they are slightly better than my whole-frozen small/mediums.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:44 PM on September 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
In my experience, the smaller they are the better they taste from a greenhouse. So grape/cherry tomatoes first, then those smaller perfectly round red ones on the vine in the clamshell, then roma/paste, and anything larger than that is pointless. The little ones are not, in winter, as good as my patio minis, but they are slightly better than my whole-frozen small/mediums.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:44 PM on September 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Well, seed and technology sales are cool, too. But I think that article's framing was pretty confusing.
posted by ryanrs at 8:46 PM on September 5, 2017
posted by ryanrs at 8:46 PM on September 5, 2017
Canada is also becoming a greenhouse superpower. Of course, the guy who started most of it was inspired by the Dutch.
posted by GuyZero at 8:54 PM on September 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 8:54 PM on September 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Oh man yes, if it isn't considered "summer vacation" where you are, you aren't going to get any tomatoes larger than a golf ball that aren't just flavorless mealy monstrosities. On the other hand, tiny tomatoes are good pretty much any time of year.
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:10 PM on September 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:10 PM on September 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Isn't that due to tiny tomatoes being shipped ripe, rather than shipped before ripened and ethylene gassed until they're red, since the smaller tomatoes are structurally stronger and packed in clamshells for retail so they can survive transit while ripe?
posted by jason_steakums at 9:54 PM on September 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 9:54 PM on September 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Are there any commercial greenhouse tomatoes that actually taste good?
Yes, absolutely. I buy these myself
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 9:58 PM on September 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yes, absolutely. I buy these myself
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 9:58 PM on September 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
No mention of the EU Common Agricultural Policy? I've always assumed that an important part of the reason the Dutch could use electricity growing stuff in high tech greenhouses was the large subsidies provided by the CAP and the massive tariff protection against imports from non-EU countries that can just use sunlight.
posted by Segundus at 10:13 PM on September 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 10:13 PM on September 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
2. There is something wrong with these numbers. The list of largest producing countries is way different. In fact the Netherlands only appears on one fruit, and that's in fifth! Looking around there is some discussion that things are imported in the port at Rotterdam, processed a little, have a EU sticker slapped on them, and then exported.
Thanks for that. From your link:
It's annoying because there seems a lot that is both substantial and interesting oversold by the headline numbers. 24-hour LEDs over a greenhouse heated by plentiful geothermal energy (I didn't even know that was a thing in the Netherlands!) is both really cool and probably not the right solution for Kansas.
posted by mark k at 10:36 PM on September 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Thanks for that. From your link:
Dutch agriculture is highly intensive and export focused. Dutch exports also drive agricultural imports. Total agricultural exports for 2015 are estimated at $78.3 billion. Cheese, plants, and food preparations are the top exports and neighboring EU countries (75 percent) continue to be the main markets. The U.S. is the largest non-EU export market, dominated by exports of beer and to a lesser extent horses, bulbs and cocoa powder.If beer, prepared foods, plants, bulbs, cocoa and horses are on the list of main exports the article probably isn't helping me actually understand the export number. Even cheese: If you're importing feed for cows that you keep in an industrial farming setup, then make a great Edamer or Gouda and sell it at a profit, the greenhouses maybe aren't the story behind their aggregate export numbers?
It's annoying because there seems a lot that is both substantial and interesting oversold by the headline numbers. 24-hour LEDs over a greenhouse heated by plentiful geothermal energy (I didn't even know that was a thing in the Netherlands!) is both really cool and probably not the right solution for Kansas.
posted by mark k at 10:36 PM on September 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Is there any good research out there on why the Netherlands have done so well as a country over the last couple hundred years?
I don't have any direct sources for you, but I reckon it might have something to do with their mighty seafaring years and colonialism providing a huge capital foundation. The Netherlands has some huge multinational corporations (e.g., Shell, Phillips) and also gets loads of money from being a sort-of tax haven for other big corporations (Apple, etc). Combine all of this capital with a strong welfare state and you have a good recipe for success!
posted by stillmoving at 10:44 PM on September 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
I don't have any direct sources for you, but I reckon it might have something to do with their mighty seafaring years and colonialism providing a huge capital foundation. The Netherlands has some huge multinational corporations (e.g., Shell, Phillips) and also gets loads of money from being a sort-of tax haven for other big corporations (Apple, etc). Combine all of this capital with a strong welfare state and you have a good recipe for success!
posted by stillmoving at 10:44 PM on September 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Reading about a country covered in greenhouses makes me wonder about the relative efficiency of greenhouses versus windowless indoor farms.
I toured Green Spirit Farms in Michigan once (my mom buys her greens there and asked the guy if he could show us around) and thought they had a really interesting approach to indoor farming. They farm in a windowless warehouse, using LEDs with spectrums and day-night lengths targeted to optimize the growth of particular plants. They're able to grow greens in sometimes as little as a third of the normal time to maturity. Meaning, a 90-day crop is ready in 30 days. They've been tinkering with different methods of adding the right nutrient balance to the water, and fiddling with growing root vegetables, too. And the other usual benefits of hydroponic growing apply -- no fertilizer runoff, no susceptibility to weather problems, the ability to grow year-round, no need for pesticides and herbicides (as long as you use good hygiene to keep the place a universe unto itself). I was impressed with the farm, and the greens were delicious.
I'd be curious to read an analysis of energy use. He must be heating and cooling the place according to the season, but having a windowless warehouse allows you to insulate much more cheaply than a greenhouse. But greenhouses require less lighting than an indoor farm. I know the targeted-spectrum LEDs use far less energy per lettuce than other lighting options, but I still wonder how the overall BTU budget balances, especially given the plants' accelerated maturity rates.
posted by cnidaria at 10:46 PM on September 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
I toured Green Spirit Farms in Michigan once (my mom buys her greens there and asked the guy if he could show us around) and thought they had a really interesting approach to indoor farming. They farm in a windowless warehouse, using LEDs with spectrums and day-night lengths targeted to optimize the growth of particular plants. They're able to grow greens in sometimes as little as a third of the normal time to maturity. Meaning, a 90-day crop is ready in 30 days. They've been tinkering with different methods of adding the right nutrient balance to the water, and fiddling with growing root vegetables, too. And the other usual benefits of hydroponic growing apply -- no fertilizer runoff, no susceptibility to weather problems, the ability to grow year-round, no need for pesticides and herbicides (as long as you use good hygiene to keep the place a universe unto itself). I was impressed with the farm, and the greens were delicious.
I'd be curious to read an analysis of energy use. He must be heating and cooling the place according to the season, but having a windowless warehouse allows you to insulate much more cheaply than a greenhouse. But greenhouses require less lighting than an indoor farm. I know the targeted-spectrum LEDs use far less energy per lettuce than other lighting options, but I still wonder how the overall BTU budget balances, especially given the plants' accelerated maturity rates.
posted by cnidaria at 10:46 PM on September 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
No mention of the EU Common Agricultural Policy?
Well, I'd say the Single Farm Payment is a pretty big counterargument to the idea that the CAP subsidises intensive agriculture. And if tariffs were an issue, then surely Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey would be exporting large amounts of tomatoes to north and west Europe.
We don't allow Fox news talking points to go unchallenged on this site, and likewise we shouldn't allow Leave.EU ones to go unchallenged either.
posted by ambrosen at 11:24 PM on September 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
Well, I'd say the Single Farm Payment is a pretty big counterargument to the idea that the CAP subsidises intensive agriculture. And if tariffs were an issue, then surely Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey would be exporting large amounts of tomatoes to north and west Europe.
We don't allow Fox news talking points to go unchallenged on this site, and likewise we shouldn't allow Leave.EU ones to go unchallenged either.
posted by ambrosen at 11:24 PM on September 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
I was idly considering the ramifications of the fact that, by extrapolation from this greenhouse complex in Kent it would only take 800 or so hectares to produce all of the UK's tomatoes. And I was wondering whether these greenhouses could be distributed throughout the country, at the point of purchase. All it needs is to build greenhouses above supermarket car parks, and suddenly the problem of having large organisations that need a lot of low skill workers a long way from urban centres is solved.
Obviously, building hydroponic greenhouses on stilts is not trivial, but it's probably not so complex as to want dismissing out of hand.
posted by ambrosen at 11:39 PM on September 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Obviously, building hydroponic greenhouses on stilts is not trivial, but it's probably not so complex as to want dismissing out of hand.
posted by ambrosen at 11:39 PM on September 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Pig City!
This was a very interesting project, inspired by the wildest Dutch ideas but also innovative in it's own right. If we farm pigs on an industrial scale, then why not optimize the production?
Unfortunately, the business model didn't work, investors didn't believe consumers would pay a little more for far better animal welfare when the farm looked like a factory, and the farmer couldn't carry all the fish on his own.
posted by mumimor at 12:23 AM on September 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
This was a very interesting project, inspired by the wildest Dutch ideas but also innovative in it's own right. If we farm pigs on an industrial scale, then why not optimize the production?
Unfortunately, the business model didn't work, investors didn't believe consumers would pay a little more for far better animal welfare when the farm looked like a factory, and the farmer couldn't carry all the fish on his own.
posted by mumimor at 12:23 AM on September 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
The use of exporter-by-value rank is misleading. This metric is relatively uninformative about productivity or relative tonnage. If valuable products like cheeses, flowers, and bulbs (which are basically Pokeballs full of cash) are included, that could explain much of the difference in value against, for example, a country that exports massive volumes of wheat. Also, if greenhouse-raised tomatoes are more expensive than conventionally-produced Spanish or Portuguese tomatoes, this also adds to the imbalance.
The article implies that a lot of this Dutch produce is seedstock. I would be interested to see what their import/export ratio in tonnage is like.
Dutch greenhouse technology is impressive (although their tomatoes are even more tasteless than American beefsteaks), but this article chose a strange metric to focus on.
posted by Svejk at 1:56 AM on September 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
The article implies that a lot of this Dutch produce is seedstock. I would be interested to see what their import/export ratio in tonnage is like.
Dutch greenhouse technology is impressive (although their tomatoes are even more tasteless than American beefsteaks), but this article chose a strange metric to focus on.
posted by Svejk at 1:56 AM on September 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
And a lot less greenhouse destroying weather than most of the US has.
While the weather is different, the Netherlands is extremely vulnerable to storms and flooding. The difference to the USA is that following the 1953 storm and flooding which killed over 1,800 people they basically made the decision that this was never going to happen again, and have put in the investment and planning in flood defences that commitment needed - their current planning is looking forward to what will be needed in the face of climate change as far ahead as the year 2200.
posted by Vortisaur at 2:10 AM on September 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
While the weather is different, the Netherlands is extremely vulnerable to storms and flooding. The difference to the USA is that following the 1953 storm and flooding which killed over 1,800 people they basically made the decision that this was never going to happen again, and have put in the investment and planning in flood defences that commitment needed - their current planning is looking forward to what will be needed in the face of climate change as far ahead as the year 2200.
posted by Vortisaur at 2:10 AM on September 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
With regard to the flooding defences, I think it's quite a lot easier and cheaper to protect 451km of coastline than it is to protect the entirety of the Gulf of Mexico and the eastern seaboard.
I've no doubt that they are more progressive politically and ecologically than the US, but ease of application is a big factor when it comes to planning and buy in.
posted by trif at 3:16 AM on September 6, 2017
I've no doubt that they are more progressive politically and ecologically than the US, but ease of application is a big factor when it comes to planning and buy in.
posted by trif at 3:16 AM on September 6, 2017
If there is a Dutch nationalism (there is a Dutch nationalism), like a solid 15-20% of it is "we have the best water management and flood engineering in the world, and have for centuries"
posted by hleehowon at 3:29 AM on September 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by hleehowon at 3:29 AM on September 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
What's now the Netherlands has been an advanced economy compared to its neighbours since before colonialism and before Protestantism. In the early years (1100-1400), it was the textile industry that put the Low Countries ahead.
posted by clawsoon at 3:56 AM on September 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 3:56 AM on September 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Dutch were also early adopters of printing technology and commercial/graphic design. They have a lot of history with being early, industrious adopters of technology.
They also build some of the best boats and have the best large boat piloting schools in the world. They've been global traders and shippers for a really long time, and a major shipping port for Western Europe for much of it.
They also had a whole lot of good old fashioned colonialism and resource extraction, and still do a lot of petro and mining or mining support today. They build a significant amount of hardware for the oil industry.
See, also, the rather brutal and bloody history of tea plantations and tea trading.
I sometimes vaguely wonder if the Dutch Tulip Craze was something they just invented on a drunken dare to see if someone could trade a flower, no, the promise of a flower for an entire estate or fortune.
Growing tomatoes in giant computer controlled greenhouse complexes isn't even the wildest idea that's come out of Holland. They know how to take risks and use what they've got.
posted by loquacious at 5:15 AM on September 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
They also build some of the best boats and have the best large boat piloting schools in the world. They've been global traders and shippers for a really long time, and a major shipping port for Western Europe for much of it.
They also had a whole lot of good old fashioned colonialism and resource extraction, and still do a lot of petro and mining or mining support today. They build a significant amount of hardware for the oil industry.
See, also, the rather brutal and bloody history of tea plantations and tea trading.
I sometimes vaguely wonder if the Dutch Tulip Craze was something they just invented on a drunken dare to see if someone could trade a flower, no, the promise of a flower for an entire estate or fortune.
Growing tomatoes in giant computer controlled greenhouse complexes isn't even the wildest idea that's come out of Holland. They know how to take risks and use what they've got.
posted by loquacious at 5:15 AM on September 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
I have a half-baked theory that having a coastal (or navigable river) area that's simultaneously a) easy to trade with and b) easy to defend is a recipe for economic success. Examples in favour of my half-bakery: Tyre, Athens, Venice, the Netherlands. Maybe also Montreal, Manhattan, Singapore. There are probably more that I don't know about.
posted by clawsoon at 5:24 AM on September 6, 2017
posted by clawsoon at 5:24 AM on September 6, 2017
The Dutch definitely have a solid foundation of capital derived from colonization, but they also have this willingness to undertake decisive, collective action and seek long term gains at the expense of short-term ones. That's how they get stuff like the Maeslantkering, whereas in the United States we're still trying to get leaders to admit that climate change is in progress.
posted by entropone at 5:39 AM on September 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by entropone at 5:39 AM on September 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Dutch are the best tourists. Got another load of them last night. So nice. Inquisitive and considerate.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 5:53 AM on September 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Mr. Yuck at 5:53 AM on September 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
> Are there any commercial greenhouse tomatoes that actually taste good?
Yeah, it's definitely possible. My mom's neighbor has greenhouse and grows tomatoes. They've very good. I usually get a few when I go down there, 'cause yummy. They're naturally ripened and grown in some sort of compost mixture. I have no idea what varieties she grows, but she has regular size tomatoes as well as small ones.
They're commercial greenhouse tomatoes, but it's a small-scale operation and she only sells them on the local market. Most tomatoes you get in supermarkets are artificially ripened green tomatoes. They have a longer shelf-life, but not much flavor. Tomatoes have to ripen naturally to really taste good. To get naturally ripened tomatoes, you pretty much have to buy them locally and eat them over next few days before they go bad. There isn't much way around this. I don't think it matters if they're grown in a greenhouse or outside.
I'm sure good tasty naturally ripened Dutch greenhouse-grown tomatoes exist, but you'd pretty much have to live in the Netherlands to get them.
posted by nangar at 6:03 AM on September 6, 2017
Yeah, it's definitely possible. My mom's neighbor has greenhouse and grows tomatoes. They've very good. I usually get a few when I go down there, 'cause yummy. They're naturally ripened and grown in some sort of compost mixture. I have no idea what varieties she grows, but she has regular size tomatoes as well as small ones.
They're commercial greenhouse tomatoes, but it's a small-scale operation and she only sells them on the local market. Most tomatoes you get in supermarkets are artificially ripened green tomatoes. They have a longer shelf-life, but not much flavor. Tomatoes have to ripen naturally to really taste good. To get naturally ripened tomatoes, you pretty much have to buy them locally and eat them over next few days before they go bad. There isn't much way around this. I don't think it matters if they're grown in a greenhouse or outside.
I'm sure good tasty naturally ripened Dutch greenhouse-grown tomatoes exist, but you'd pretty much have to live in the Netherlands to get them.
posted by nangar at 6:03 AM on September 6, 2017
This showed up in my Twitter as "Metafilter: The Tiny Country that Feeds the World", and my first thought was "wait, we have a farm?!"; my second thought was "wait, we're a country?!" and my third thought was "how do I get a passport?".
posted by arcticseal at 6:54 AM on September 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by arcticseal at 6:54 AM on September 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
This is admirable, but they still need to retire their old football players.
posted by john wilkins at 7:26 AM on September 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by john wilkins at 7:26 AM on September 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are there any commercial greenhouse tomatoes that actually taste good?
There are a bunch of these operations south and east of Ottawa (perhaps not coincidentally, the heart of a Dutch farming community). Some of the produce they produce is awful---tasteless and watery---but that's improving as the farmers are realizing that people will pay for better tomatoes.
The greenhouse cash crops still nowhere near the taste of a fresh tomato from your own plant, IMO, but the present greenhouse produce is a heck of a lot better than the red baseballs I remember eating as a kid. They're growing a larger number of varieties and since they're hydroponic, often with no pesticides either.
On balance, a real net positive, I think. They still have some way to go on quality, but they're much better than they used to be.
posted by bonehead at 7:32 AM on September 6, 2017
There are a bunch of these operations south and east of Ottawa (perhaps not coincidentally, the heart of a Dutch farming community). Some of the produce they produce is awful---tasteless and watery---but that's improving as the farmers are realizing that people will pay for better tomatoes.
The greenhouse cash crops still nowhere near the taste of a fresh tomato from your own plant, IMO, but the present greenhouse produce is a heck of a lot better than the red baseballs I remember eating as a kid. They're growing a larger number of varieties and since they're hydroponic, often with no pesticides either.
On balance, a real net positive, I think. They still have some way to go on quality, but they're much better than they used to be.
posted by bonehead at 7:32 AM on September 6, 2017
We had some Dutch visitors to our center here who proudly told us that in the Netherlands, an office space without windows is illegal. (I work in the basement of a bunker-like 100-year-old building. If I want to know what the weather is like outside, I pull up a local webcam on my computer. The Dutch were appalled.) Very sensible and humane. Their hothouse tomatoes may taste like crap, but I applaud their labor regulations.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:57 AM on September 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:57 AM on September 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
soren_lorensen, I think it's like that all over Europe
posted by mumimor at 8:21 AM on September 6, 2017
posted by mumimor at 8:21 AM on September 6, 2017
Well, I'd say the Single Farm Payment is a pretty big counterargument
Yes, the CAP could hardly be a complete answer with, for example, sunny countries like Spain inside the EU. But not to mention it in this context is surely an omission.
We don't allow Fox news talking points to go unchallenged on this site, and likewise we shouldn't allow Leave.EU ones to go unchallenged either.
As a matter of fact, I voted 'remain'. I welcome challenges to my nuanced views, but might you not be a little over-excited about this?
posted by Segundus at 8:47 AM on September 6, 2017
Yes, the CAP could hardly be a complete answer with, for example, sunny countries like Spain inside the EU. But not to mention it in this context is surely an omission.
We don't allow Fox news talking points to go unchallenged on this site, and likewise we shouldn't allow Leave.EU ones to go unchallenged either.
As a matter of fact, I voted 'remain'. I welcome challenges to my nuanced views, but might you not be a little over-excited about this?
posted by Segundus at 8:47 AM on September 6, 2017
my second thought was "wait, we're a country?!" and my third thought was "how do I get a passport?"
Surely we are far overdue for micronation status. We'll need a flag, currency, stamps, an anthem, and appropriately sumptuous regalia for cortex.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:01 AM on September 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Surely we are far overdue for micronation status. We'll need a flag, currency, stamps, an anthem, and appropriately sumptuous regalia for cortex.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:01 AM on September 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
As for the Wasserbomb phenomenon:
precision controlled environment ag is great at what it has been optimized for, which is maximum yield in shortest time and lowest inputs. But the thing is, when you optimize the environment for a tomato to coddle it in such a way that lets it put all its energy into growth, flavor suffers, because most of the flavor in plants isn't part of primary metabolism (cell division and growth) but rather secondary or specialized metabolism, which is the stuff that helps adapt a plant to its ecological niche but isn't strictly necessary for growth. It takes metabolic energy to create carotenoids and related molecules (color!), acids, and the molecules for defense against insects, fungus, drought, UV light, and other stressors—these defense molecules are the molecules we perceive as flavor!
so basically, no stress = no flavor. You can build stress into the system (as well a genetics that favor the accumulation of specialized metabolites) but you probably cant get lots of flavor and insane growth. Lots of flavor and pretty damn good growth, you probably can have, but almost nobody's adding flavor to their optimization checkbox list...
posted by zingiberene at 10:03 AM on September 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
precision controlled environment ag is great at what it has been optimized for, which is maximum yield in shortest time and lowest inputs. But the thing is, when you optimize the environment for a tomato to coddle it in such a way that lets it put all its energy into growth, flavor suffers, because most of the flavor in plants isn't part of primary metabolism (cell division and growth) but rather secondary or specialized metabolism, which is the stuff that helps adapt a plant to its ecological niche but isn't strictly necessary for growth. It takes metabolic energy to create carotenoids and related molecules (color!), acids, and the molecules for defense against insects, fungus, drought, UV light, and other stressors—these defense molecules are the molecules we perceive as flavor!
so basically, no stress = no flavor. You can build stress into the system (as well a genetics that favor the accumulation of specialized metabolites) but you probably cant get lots of flavor and insane growth. Lots of flavor and pretty damn good growth, you probably can have, but almost nobody's adding flavor to their optimization checkbox list...
posted by zingiberene at 10:03 AM on September 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Segundus has an interesting observation. And there is much more EU and national funding going their way. But hey Murica, that's what governments are for! Vegetables are really cheap in Netherlands. On a lighter note: the same famous university of Wageningen produced some graduates that played an important role in the development of the very profitable Dutch weed growing culture. (dixit my coffeeshop guy)
posted by ouke at 10:20 AM on September 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by ouke at 10:20 AM on September 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
270 times its landmass
Good old statistics! If we're counting arable land (land commercially planted or lying fallow for an upcoming season) as a percentage of national landmass, the Netherlands clocks in at 26.8%, the US at 19.01%; How much land in either country that could be used for agriculture becomes a real thorny question, to say nothing of how much should be used. And, of course, things change. In my part of New England there are plenty of lots with trees dating back no more than a hundred years, lots I'm pretty certain once grew food. Anyway, fun site, full of surprises.
I sometimes vaguely wonder if the Dutch Tulip Craze was something they just invented on a drunken dare to see if someone could trade a flower, no, the promise of a flower for an entire estate or fortune.
As a one off, maybe, but does it scale? The general boom had been going on for sometime before tulips entered the picture. Theory I heard was that too much serious money was already chasing too few goods, which was a real problem for the small investor, but that these relatively small Turkish imports were a way for the little guy to get in on the action, maybe plant a few, grow a few, sell the growth - like chinchilla farms.
I'd give you a cite, but I can't recall offhand where I got that. And, of course, I could be wrong.
posted by BWA at 10:39 AM on September 6, 2017
Good old statistics! If we're counting arable land (land commercially planted or lying fallow for an upcoming season) as a percentage of national landmass, the Netherlands clocks in at 26.8%, the US at 19.01%; How much land in either country that could be used for agriculture becomes a real thorny question, to say nothing of how much should be used. And, of course, things change. In my part of New England there are plenty of lots with trees dating back no more than a hundred years, lots I'm pretty certain once grew food. Anyway, fun site, full of surprises.
I sometimes vaguely wonder if the Dutch Tulip Craze was something they just invented on a drunken dare to see if someone could trade a flower, no, the promise of a flower for an entire estate or fortune.
As a one off, maybe, but does it scale? The general boom had been going on for sometime before tulips entered the picture. Theory I heard was that too much serious money was already chasing too few goods, which was a real problem for the small investor, but that these relatively small Turkish imports were a way for the little guy to get in on the action, maybe plant a few, grow a few, sell the growth - like chinchilla farms.
I'd give you a cite, but I can't recall offhand where I got that. And, of course, I could be wrong.
posted by BWA at 10:39 AM on September 6, 2017
Does America not subsidize the hell out of its agriculture? That was my impression.
posted by Artw at 10:50 AM on September 6, 2017
posted by Artw at 10:50 AM on September 6, 2017
Surely someone has a good response to the reactionaries who'd point to ethnic homogeneity, a monarchy, and the Protestant work ethic?
Jewish work ethic played a part. And from your perspective, the definitely hardworking French Huguenots - Protestant yes, Dutch, no. (There is some argument over how well they took to the place. They were certainly a boon for other countries they wound up in.)
Does America not subsidize the hell out of its agriculture? That was my impression.
Yes. Yes, it does. Pull up a chair, google Earl Butz and corn subsidy and get ready to get annoyed.
posted by BWA at 11:03 AM on September 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Jewish work ethic played a part. And from your perspective, the definitely hardworking French Huguenots - Protestant yes, Dutch, no. (There is some argument over how well they took to the place. They were certainly a boon for other countries they wound up in.)
Does America not subsidize the hell out of its agriculture? That was my impression.
Yes. Yes, it does. Pull up a chair, google Earl Butz and corn subsidy and get ready to get annoyed.
posted by BWA at 11:03 AM on September 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
"I think it's quite a lot easier and cheaper to protect 451km of coastline than it is to protect the entirety of the Gulf of Mexico and the eastern seaboard."
"We do these things ... not because they are easy, but because they are hard."
posted by HiroProtagonist at 7:26 PM on September 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
"We do these things ... not because they are easy, but because they are hard."
posted by HiroProtagonist at 7:26 PM on September 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I have a half-baked theory that having a coastal (or navigable river) area that's simultaneously a) easy to trade with and b) easy to defend is a recipe for economic success.
Not Singapore, our rivers are the size of (not very big) canals. Our ports are all on our coasts.
posted by Alnedra at 2:53 AM on September 7, 2017
Not Singapore, our rivers are the size of (not very big) canals. Our ports are all on our coasts.
posted by Alnedra at 2:53 AM on September 7, 2017
zabuni: Standard Internet consensus is that the tomatoes are terrible tasting.
How can that be, when they don't taste like much of anything?
Srsly now: It's true, of course. But it does matter which ones you get. The standard round cheap orangy-red ones are indeed very bland.
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:43 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
How can that be, when they don't taste like much of anything?
Srsly now: It's true, of course. But it does matter which ones you get. The standard round cheap orangy-red ones are indeed very bland.
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:43 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I have a half-baked theory that having a coastal (or navigable river) area that's simultaneously a) easy to trade with and b) easy to defend is a recipe for economic success. Examples in favour of my half-bakery: Tyre, Athens, Venice, the Netherlands. Maybe also Montreal, Manhattan, Singapore. There are probably more that I don't know about.
fun fact: over-water shipping was about 10x cheaper than overland shipping in ancient Babylonia, from what we can tell, and over-water shipping is about 10x cheaper than overland shipping in 2017. so if you want shit, there's a structural cost advantage in shipping it overwater for anything ever
posted by hleehowon at 7:15 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
fun fact: over-water shipping was about 10x cheaper than overland shipping in ancient Babylonia, from what we can tell, and over-water shipping is about 10x cheaper than overland shipping in 2017. so if you want shit, there's a structural cost advantage in shipping it overwater for anything ever
posted by hleehowon at 7:15 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
Not Singapore, our rivers are the size of (not very big) canals. Our ports are all on our coasts.
I think they meant either coastal or riverine, so Singapore would have been a coastal example. It's not really easy to defend though; way too small, and so lacking in natural resources it wouldn't last days if it was under siege.
posted by destrius at 8:03 AM on September 7, 2017
I think they meant either coastal or riverine, so Singapore would have been a coastal example. It's not really easy to defend though; way too small, and so lacking in natural resources it wouldn't last days if it was under siege.
posted by destrius at 8:03 AM on September 7, 2017
Any recommendations on books about Dutch ingenuity? I'd love to read more about it.
posted by yoga at 12:12 PM on September 7, 2017
posted by yoga at 12:12 PM on September 7, 2017
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posted by Bee'sWing at 6:30 PM on September 5, 2017