1% of "finishers" missed EVERY timing mat
September 16, 2017 7:29 AM Subscribe
It seems to me that in an event like a marathon, one is mostly in competition with oneself. Sure somebody is going to get the fastest time, but most people know going in that they're not in the running for that. And the whole ethos as I understand it is less about competition and more about endurance, achievement, and the things that humans can do with our bodies when we try. It's more about trying to constsntly improve and do something that's worth being proud of than about trying to beat out someone else.
So then, what is the point of this kind of cheating? Who are these people cheating other than themselves? What good does it do anyone? If you take away the pride in accomplishment, what's left? What is there that is worth the shame of knowing that one of your life's signature achievements is a lie?
I really don't get it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:58 AM on September 16, 2017 [24 favorites]
So then, what is the point of this kind of cheating? Who are these people cheating other than themselves? What good does it do anyone? If you take away the pride in accomplishment, what's left? What is there that is worth the shame of knowing that one of your life's signature achievements is a lie?
I really don't get it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:58 AM on September 16, 2017 [24 favorites]
A marathon in August?
Oh, Mexico City is at 7000 feet and it's low 60s there right now.
posted by Bee'sWing at 8:02 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh, Mexico City is at 7000 feet and it's low 60s there right now.
posted by Bee'sWing at 8:02 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Runners can get themselves into a delirium about qualifying for Boston that I've never seen for any other race.
posted by lagomorphius at 8:06 AM on September 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by lagomorphius at 8:06 AM on September 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
So then, what is the point of this kind of cheating?I think the article implied that the point may have been to get a time that qualified for the Boston Marathon.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:06 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
One of my all-time favorite Internet arguments featured an interlocutor who steadfastly claimed that taking the train in the middle of a marathon was not against the rules because no one could point to a single, specific rule banning the practice at the given marathon in question. When someone found one, he demanded proof that the rule was also in force in the 70s and wasn't added after the incident in question. For all I know, he's still out there on the Internet claiming that skipping half the course of a marathon on a train is totally legitimate.
posted by Copronymus at 8:11 AM on September 16, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 8:11 AM on September 16, 2017 [15 favorites]
Once again the 1% cuts corners to win.
posted by chavenet at 8:12 AM on September 16, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 8:12 AM on September 16, 2017 [15 favorites]
A marathon in August?
Oh, Mexico City is at 7000 feet and it's low 60s there right now.
The San Francisco marathon is in July for the same reason - it's one of the few places where running a marathon in July wouldn't be insane. (Well, wouldn't be more insane than running a marathon any other time of year.)
posted by madcaptenor at 8:17 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh, Mexico City is at 7000 feet and it's low 60s there right now.
The San Francisco marathon is in July for the same reason - it's one of the few places where running a marathon in July wouldn't be insane. (Well, wouldn't be more insane than running a marathon any other time of year.)
posted by madcaptenor at 8:17 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
A marathon in August?
Oh, Mexico City is at 7000 feet and it's low 60s there right now.
The San Francisco marathon is in July for the same reason - it's one of the few places where running a marathon in July wouldn't be insane. (Well, wouldn't be more insane than running a marathon any other time of year.)
The Bangkok Marathon is held in November and starts at 2:00 am in order to give runners a fighting chance against the heat and the traffic.
posted by lagomorphius at 8:21 AM on September 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
Oh, Mexico City is at 7000 feet and it's low 60s there right now.
The San Francisco marathon is in July for the same reason - it's one of the few places where running a marathon in July wouldn't be insane. (Well, wouldn't be more insane than running a marathon any other time of year.)
The Bangkok Marathon is held in November and starts at 2:00 am in order to give runners a fighting chance against the heat and the traffic.
posted by lagomorphius at 8:21 AM on September 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
I really don't get it.
It's the same as using a game shark with your Sega Genesis (I am old, I guess), buying an account in WoW or using cheat codes in GTA. People don't realize that the purpose of the game is to play the game and breaking the rules takes all the enjoyment out of it. I don't get it either, but enough people do that kind of stuff.
posted by Literaryhero at 8:31 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's the same as using a game shark with your Sega Genesis (I am old, I guess), buying an account in WoW or using cheat codes in GTA. People don't realize that the purpose of the game is to play the game and breaking the rules takes all the enjoyment out of it. I don't get it either, but enough people do that kind of stuff.
posted by Literaryhero at 8:31 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Spirit of the game.
posted by parki at 8:34 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by parki at 8:34 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
People don't realize that the purpose of the game is to play the game and breaking the rules takes all the enjoyment out of it.
That's loser talk, son. Now get out there and sweep the legs when the ref isn't looking.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:45 AM on September 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
That's loser talk, son. Now get out there and sweep the legs when the ref isn't looking.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:45 AM on September 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
A marathon in August?"It's in August."
Oh, Mexico City is at 7000 feet and it's low 60s there right now.
"That's bad!"
"But it's still relatively cool weather..."
"That's good!"
"...because it's 7000 feet above sea level."
"That's bad."
posted by pykrete jungle at 8:46 AM on September 16, 2017 [48 favorites]
I asked a marathoner friend of mine: why would someone cheat to qualify for Boston, when that guarantees that they'll have the worst times of everyone who runs in Boston? (Assuming they run Boston themselves, and aren't just going to pay someone to run it for them.)
His answer: They just want to say they did Boston. It's a big bragging thing, and they are proud to show off their ill-gotten Boston jacket.
posted by ejs at 8:57 AM on September 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
His answer: They just want to say they did Boston. It's a big bragging thing, and they are proud to show off their ill-gotten Boston jacket.
posted by ejs at 8:57 AM on September 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
Cheating in a marathon by taking the subway? Boston? Sounds familiar.
posted by adamg at 9:08 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by adamg at 9:08 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
> It's more about trying to constsntly improve and do something that's worth being proud of than about trying to beat out someone else.
It's the same thing in golf, and yet people cheat so much it's like you don't get into heaven unless you shoot a certain score.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:09 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's the same thing in golf, and yet people cheat so much it's like you don't get into heaven unless you shoot a certain score.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:09 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
His answer: They just want to say they did Boston. It's a big bragging thing, and they are proud to show off their ill-gotten Boston jacket.
Some people will legit buy Boston or NYC marathon gear on eBay, even like those warming blankets they hand out at the finish line, so they can post photos pretending that they were a finisher.
Some people have been caught cheating multiple races over like decades.
Marathon Investigation, which is credited in the runners world article, is a good blog for reading about cheaters of all stripes. It is a glimpse into a very very strange mentality.
posted by muddgirl at 9:17 AM on September 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
Some people will legit buy Boston or NYC marathon gear on eBay, even like those warming blankets they hand out at the finish line, so they can post photos pretending that they were a finisher.
Some people have been caught cheating multiple races over like decades.
Marathon Investigation, which is credited in the runners world article, is a good blog for reading about cheaters of all stripes. It is a glimpse into a very very strange mentality.
posted by muddgirl at 9:17 AM on September 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
....one of the few places where running a marathon in July wouldn't be insane.
Spoken like a true northern hemispherian.
posted by TedW at 9:27 AM on September 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
Spoken like a true northern hemispherian.
posted by TedW at 9:27 AM on September 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
I found it symbolically appropriate that this happened when Mexico is going into a presidential election where corruption is going to be one of the main issues of debate. In the past five years, sixteen governors have either been indicted, are in jail or have fled the country. Javier Duarte, the former governor of Veracruz stole an estimated 1,864,000,000 dollars of public funds. Not to mention the web of scandals surrounding Peña Nieto (yes, the president of Mexico has a worse approval rating than Trump). Corruption is a cancer in this country, and it's spreading everywhere.
posted by Omon Ra at 9:28 AM on September 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Omon Ra at 9:28 AM on September 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
It reminds me of those people who pretend to have been in the military and wear fake medals. Like, ok, I guess it maybe gets you a little bit of positive attention once in a while, but does that really make up for the reality that first, you didn't actually do those things and you know it, and second, you have to be afraid of being caught as a fake? I don't see the appeal but it is obviously common.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:31 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 9:31 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
There used to be a big Geocities-type page devoted to identifying and shaming dudes who tell people they were Navy SEALs, which is a thing, it seems, that some people do as a lifestyle.
posted by thelonius at 9:34 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 9:34 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
I read an article at Marathon Investigation, the blog muddgirl linked to, about bib theft. This is a crime I don't quite understand. Explain to me the advantage of running a race wearing a bib registered in someone else's name, as was the case in the linked article? Especially for 5k and 10k races at Disneyworld, again as was the case in the article? This seems the opposite of finagling to get into a race like the Boston Marathon, or faking having run such a prestigious race: avoiding paying the registration fee in order to have the experience of running it?
And what about people who buy bibs for something like the Chicago Marathon. You're not officially running if you don't have a bib in your own name, so what's your angle?
Kindly explain, if you can.
posted by Orlop at 9:34 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
And what about people who buy bibs for something like the Chicago Marathon. You're not officially running if you don't have a bib in your own name, so what's your angle?
Kindly explain, if you can.
posted by Orlop at 9:34 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh, wow. I have a NYC Marathon jacket which I picked up in a secondhand shop because it packs down small and is high-vis orange. I had no idea it was a thing to pretend to have done marathons. Should I stop wearing that jacket?
posted by d. z. wang at 9:38 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by d. z. wang at 9:38 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Sounds like Boston needs to tell people this race doesn't qualify them.
posted by pracowity at 9:41 AM on September 16, 2017
posted by pracowity at 9:41 AM on September 16, 2017
Explain to me the advantage of running a race wearing a bib registered in someone else's name, as was the case in the linked article? Especially for 5k and 10k races at Disneyworld, again as was the case in the article?
A lot of it is to avoid the registration fee. A lot of people buy second-hand bibs but that is illegal for most races and they are starting to crack down. My impression is that the Disney races are unique because there are a lot of people who want to run the race just to meet with/interact with/take photos with some of the costumed characters that Disney puts out on the course. However there is also a course limit - like you have to run the course in under 6 hours or something like that, so people who want to take lots of photos and aren't the fastest runners are at risk of getting "swept." This is compounded by the common marathon practice of spreading out the start times by "corralling" runners based on their start time. Being in the first corral == you get to start sooner == you have more time on the course. So some slow runners will fake qualifying times to get into a "better" corral (it appears the bib-stealer has also done this in other Disney races).
Also Disney gives out special finisher's medals for every race and some people want to collect them all without having to pay a lot of money for them. I'm guessing that's also a factor in this case since the runner did legitimately pay for one run.
posted by muddgirl at 9:56 AM on September 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
A lot of it is to avoid the registration fee. A lot of people buy second-hand bibs but that is illegal for most races and they are starting to crack down. My impression is that the Disney races are unique because there are a lot of people who want to run the race just to meet with/interact with/take photos with some of the costumed characters that Disney puts out on the course. However there is also a course limit - like you have to run the course in under 6 hours or something like that, so people who want to take lots of photos and aren't the fastest runners are at risk of getting "swept." This is compounded by the common marathon practice of spreading out the start times by "corralling" runners based on their start time. Being in the first corral == you get to start sooner == you have more time on the course. So some slow runners will fake qualifying times to get into a "better" corral (it appears the bib-stealer has also done this in other Disney races).
Also Disney gives out special finisher's medals for every race and some people want to collect them all without having to pay a lot of money for them. I'm guessing that's also a factor in this case since the runner did legitimately pay for one run.
posted by muddgirl at 9:56 AM on September 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
For all I know, he's still out there on the Internet claiming that skipping half the course of a marathon on a train is totally legitimate.
Oh, yeah- Pheidippides totally took the train from, like, Corinth to Argos.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:58 AM on September 16, 2017 [23 favorites]
Oh, yeah- Pheidippides totally took the train from, like, Corinth to Argos.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:58 AM on September 16, 2017 [23 favorites]
The flip side is there's a certain kind of runner who likes to accuse people of cheating.
It happened to me once. A race director forwarded me a email (with the sender redacted) he'd received by another runner accusing me of cutting the course. They had my bib number, my description and where'd I'd cut the course. Long story short: I was running with a group of people all through that section of a very long race, and either we'd all cut the course, or I managed to cut the course without any of them noticing. After I responded the race director replied that he knew it was all b.s., but he felt obliged to forward these messages when he received them. (To be clear - I wasn't anywhere near contention for a top finishing position, so I simply won the unlucky lottery that race.)
posted by lagomorphius at 10:01 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
It happened to me once. A race director forwarded me a email (with the sender redacted) he'd received by another runner accusing me of cutting the course. They had my bib number, my description and where'd I'd cut the course. Long story short: I was running with a group of people all through that section of a very long race, and either we'd all cut the course, or I managed to cut the course without any of them noticing. After I responded the race director replied that he knew it was all b.s., but he felt obliged to forward these messages when he received them. (To be clear - I wasn't anywhere near contention for a top finishing position, so I simply won the unlucky lottery that race.)
posted by lagomorphius at 10:01 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Back when I was running more of these races there was a gentlemen well-known among race directors for finishing, and then trying to sneak behind the finish line to make off with handfuls of finisher medals. Why - nobody knows. Maybe to sell on eBay? But he actually did run the races. I saw him get caught with an armload of medals and then banned from a 50K.
posted by lagomorphius at 10:07 AM on September 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by lagomorphius at 10:07 AM on September 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
d. z. wang: "Oh, wow. I have a NYC Marathon jacket which I picked up in a secondhand shop because it packs down small and is high-vis orange. I had no idea it was a thing to pretend to have done marathons. Should I stop wearing that jacket?"
Just wear it ironically.
posted by chavenet at 10:22 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Just wear it ironically.
posted by chavenet at 10:22 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Only wear it when you're smoking.
posted by clawsoon at 10:25 AM on September 16, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 10:25 AM on September 16, 2017 [16 favorites]
Wear it with spats and jodhpurs and a fez. They won't even notice the jacket.
posted by pracowity at 10:30 AM on September 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 10:30 AM on September 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
Explain to me the advantage of running a race wearing a bib registered in someone else's name, as was the case in the linked article?
The marathon here gets sold out pretty quickly, so you have to buy your bib months before the race. And the fee is about 120$. You might not want to shell out that kind of cash that far in advance.
A few days before race day, there are people that no longer can race that can't get refunds, and people that are ready to race that can't officially register. If neither of these parties cares about official stats, then I would see no problem in them making some kind of win-win transaction.
posted by bitteroldman at 10:40 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
The marathon here gets sold out pretty quickly, so you have to buy your bib months before the race. And the fee is about 120$. You might not want to shell out that kind of cash that far in advance.
A few days before race day, there are people that no longer can race that can't get refunds, and people that are ready to race that can't officially register. If neither of these parties cares about official stats, then I would see no problem in them making some kind of win-win transaction.
posted by bitteroldman at 10:40 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh, wow. I have a NYC Marathon jacket which I picked up in a secondhand shop because it packs down small and is high-vis orange. I had no idea it was a thing to pretend to have done marathons. Should I stop wearing that jacket?
Dunno about NYC, but the Chicago marathon jackets go to the volunteers and not the runners, although there are always a variety of jackets for sale. They hold up really well - I still have a nice one from 1999. No big deal if someone decided they didn't want their jacket anymore and sent it to the resale store. I've done the same myself with race clothes.
posted by lagomorphius at 11:08 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Dunno about NYC, but the Chicago marathon jackets go to the volunteers and not the runners, although there are always a variety of jackets for sale. They hold up really well - I still have a nice one from 1999. No big deal if someone decided they didn't want their jacket anymore and sent it to the resale store. I've done the same myself with race clothes.
posted by lagomorphius at 11:08 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just wear it ironically.
With my belly, there is no other way I could wear it.
posted by Bee'sWing at 11:25 AM on September 16, 2017 [11 favorites]
With my belly, there is no other way I could wear it.
posted by Bee'sWing at 11:25 AM on September 16, 2017 [11 favorites]
So then, what is the point of this kind of cheating? Who are these people cheating other than themselves?
I have a friend who cheats at solitaire. I could never understand that either.
posted by adamrice at 11:28 AM on September 16, 2017
I have a friend who cheats at solitaire. I could never understand that either.
posted by adamrice at 11:28 AM on September 16, 2017
The article seems split between "there were a lot of cheaters" and "holy hell we have no idea if ANY of the results are accurate," given what people were saying about chip times being out of whack and how 4500 people somehow started with 1.5 seconds of the gun, which is physically improbable. The number of people caught or suspected of things like wearing two bibs was apparently not much different from usual. So why did the number of people who apparently cut during the course go up so drastically? Technical issues? Bad course design leading to obvious and unmonitored shortcuts? Pre-meditated conspiracy? The Boston qualifying doesn't really explain it because they do that every year, why should this year be different?
posted by chrominance at 11:32 AM on September 16, 2017
posted by chrominance at 11:32 AM on September 16, 2017
adamrice: I have a friend who cheats at solitaire. I could never understand that either.
This would make for an interesting psychological study. My guess: Winning gives a dopamine hit. Getting a hit that's diminished by knowing you cheated is still better than not getting the hit at all.
Reminds me of: Why get high on drugs when you can get high on life? Well, sometimes life falls short in the 'getting high' category. Sometimes people want to feel like they're winning at life even when they're losing.
posted by clawsoon at 11:47 AM on September 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
This would make for an interesting psychological study. My guess: Winning gives a dopamine hit. Getting a hit that's diminished by knowing you cheated is still better than not getting the hit at all.
Reminds me of: Why get high on drugs when you can get high on life? Well, sometimes life falls short in the 'getting high' category. Sometimes people want to feel like they're winning at life even when they're losing.
posted by clawsoon at 11:47 AM on September 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
I've been training to run my first marathon for several years (I've been hamstrung by injuries). In the process, I've run two half marathons. My times were dreadful in both. I overdid the first 8 miles so much during the second one that i was physically ill and walked the last 5. I came in last overall for both my age group and my gender.
I've told serious marathon runners this story and, to a person, they've said "yeah, but you finished. "
So obviously not talking about all runners everywhere, but in my little corner of the world, cheating like this would be laughable - as others have asked, what is the point if you don't actually run it?
I've read stories about people who lie about their participation in races (I think there was a story on the blue about somebody who invented races and even faked up websites to prove they'd run them) so that they could boast about what they've run, but my experience with runner's culture suggests that boasting doesn't impress other runners. You mention where you've run as a conversion starter (here's what that route is like - the crowd there is great - watch out for this if you ever go) not as a boast. In fact, as slow as I am, I feel like more experienced runners have told me their stories to encourage me, not to brag.
So yeah having a Boston jacket is sort of a "oh that's nice" thing not a "oh wow you ran Boston" thing. These train riders are mostly just stealing from themselves.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:51 AM on September 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
I've told serious marathon runners this story and, to a person, they've said "yeah, but you finished. "
So obviously not talking about all runners everywhere, but in my little corner of the world, cheating like this would be laughable - as others have asked, what is the point if you don't actually run it?
I've read stories about people who lie about their participation in races (I think there was a story on the blue about somebody who invented races and even faked up websites to prove they'd run them) so that they could boast about what they've run, but my experience with runner's culture suggests that boasting doesn't impress other runners. You mention where you've run as a conversion starter (here's what that route is like - the crowd there is great - watch out for this if you ever go) not as a boast. In fact, as slow as I am, I feel like more experienced runners have told me their stories to encourage me, not to brag.
So yeah having a Boston jacket is sort of a "oh that's nice" thing not a "oh wow you ran Boston" thing. These train riders are mostly just stealing from themselves.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:51 AM on September 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's the same in the arts: there are folks who must write and those who want the accolades of having written.
posted by bonehead at 11:57 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 11:57 AM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Could it be that they think Mexico doesn't matter except as a stepping stone to Boston, so they have come up with a system that lets them put zero effort into Mexico but still use it to get to Boston?
posted by pracowity at 12:26 PM on September 16, 2017
posted by pracowity at 12:26 PM on September 16, 2017
There was a now defunct marathon here in Chicago (not the big one) that seemed jinxed from the start and finally went under after the race director mis-measured the course and added an extra mile. People trying for a PR or to quality for you-know-what were not happy with the "congratulations you just ran your first ultra" spin.
posted by lagomorphius at 12:30 PM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by lagomorphius at 12:30 PM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't get this from a technical standpoint. By now, shouldn't it be standard for races to have dozens of mats and automatic anomaly detection? Airports have similar systems for tracking luggage as it moves through the airport, for example. And toughen up the system by paying some people to try to cheat it. Why should it be up to 3rd parties to spot anomalies? Boston should be disqualifying races that can't prove their results are >X% accurate.
posted by mantecol at 1:10 PM on September 16, 2017
posted by mantecol at 1:10 PM on September 16, 2017
A number of potential bib mules have been identified.
Bib Mules, who knew.
posted by sammyo at 1:26 PM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Bib Mules, who knew.
posted by sammyo at 1:26 PM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
For all I know, he's still out there on the Internet claiming that skipping half the course of a marathon on a train is totally legitimate.Oh, yeah- Pheidippides totally took the train from, like, Corinth to Argos.
Nobody ever qualified for the Boston Marathon by gasping "νενικήκαμεν" and dropping dead…
posted by Pinback at 2:57 PM on September 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Oh, wow. I have a NYC Marathon jacket ... Should I stop wearing that jacket?
The qualification standards for NYC aren't nearly as stringent as for Boston. There are a lot of ways to do NYC. For Boston, most of the people who run it are respectably fast, or they paid an enormous fee to run for a charity.
Either way, you should feel fine wearing the jacket. Just expect runners to chat you up about it. However, I think if you told the truth about your NYC jacket, that would be less of a let-down than if you wore a Boston jacket and told the same story.
posted by Borborygmus at 4:22 PM on September 16, 2017
The qualification standards for NYC aren't nearly as stringent as for Boston. There are a lot of ways to do NYC. For Boston, most of the people who run it are respectably fast, or they paid an enormous fee to run for a charity.
Either way, you should feel fine wearing the jacket. Just expect runners to chat you up about it. However, I think if you told the truth about your NYC jacket, that would be less of a let-down than if you wore a Boston jacket and told the same story.
posted by Borborygmus at 4:22 PM on September 16, 2017
If neither of these parties cares about official stats, then I would see no problem in them making some kind of win-win transaction.
The problem arises when someone gets lost or whatever. All the organizers may have is a bib number with a rough description (40s male, etc.) It can lead to a lot of wasted time and confusion. I work SAR and volunteer for a lot of aid stations because my wife is an ultra runner. People fucking with bib numbers is a huge pain the ass - especially in trail running events that have a considerable wilderness component to them.
A notable one was this past summer - a 16 year old boy signed up for a 10k across the desert, but couldn't do it, so gave his little sister his bib. She got took a wrong turn, and the ATV SAR crew was out looking for a 5'10" male instead of a 4'5" 11YO female. The ATV SAR crew saw her twice, but didn't see the bib, so moved on. We did find her, but spent an extra hour or so that she didn't have to - and that could have easily have turned out far worse.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:51 PM on September 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
The problem arises when someone gets lost or whatever. All the organizers may have is a bib number with a rough description (40s male, etc.) It can lead to a lot of wasted time and confusion. I work SAR and volunteer for a lot of aid stations because my wife is an ultra runner. People fucking with bib numbers is a huge pain the ass - especially in trail running events that have a considerable wilderness component to them.
A notable one was this past summer - a 16 year old boy signed up for a 10k across the desert, but couldn't do it, so gave his little sister his bib. She got took a wrong turn, and the ATV SAR crew was out looking for a 5'10" male instead of a 4'5" 11YO female. The ATV SAR crew saw her twice, but didn't see the bib, so moved on. We did find her, but spent an extra hour or so that she didn't have to - and that could have easily have turned out far worse.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:51 PM on September 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
my experience with runner's culture suggests that boasting doesn't impress other runners
Indeed, in some circles I move in, even mentioning times is considered a bit... uncouth, I suppose. Not forbidden, but a bit vulgar you could say.
The other thing is, unless you are truly extraordinary and in another league altogether, there will always be people - likely hundreds, some of them decades older than you - running much, much faster than you (And also hundreds running slower). So faking it seems... irrelevant.
But it's totally a Thing. Don't get it, either.
posted by smoke at 7:07 PM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Indeed, in some circles I move in, even mentioning times is considered a bit... uncouth, I suppose. Not forbidden, but a bit vulgar you could say.
The other thing is, unless you are truly extraordinary and in another league altogether, there will always be people - likely hundreds, some of them decades older than you - running much, much faster than you (And also hundreds running slower). So faking it seems... irrelevant.
But it's totally a Thing. Don't get it, either.
posted by smoke at 7:07 PM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Turns out the marathon was in their hearts all along!
posted by etherist at 7:29 PM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by etherist at 7:29 PM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
For some, cheating and getting away with it -is- the game.
posted by bigbigdog at 10:00 PM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bigbigdog at 10:00 PM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
There used to be a big Geocities-type page devoted to identifying and shaming dudes who tell people they were Navy SEALs, which is a thing, it seems, that some people do as a lifestyle.
Used to be? Google "stolen valor" sometime. There are people who will basically buy every medal in the case at a military surplus store and pin them all over a uniform from the same store with no consideration for their proper placement or order, or even whether they're from the same branch of the military. And even the Stolen Valor people themselves have come under fire for going after anyone wearing a surplus jacket if they can't recite the Soldier's Creed or something.
I think that for some people, that moment of adoration, no matter how fleeting or tempered with puzzlement or outright suspicion, is worth it. Consider this previously on the blue, or the previouslier two comments below it. You'd think that, at some point, even the most doggedly self-deceiving person would realize that everyone's got a video camera and access to instant worldwide publishing media. Maybe these people just don't care.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:11 PM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Used to be? Google "stolen valor" sometime. There are people who will basically buy every medal in the case at a military surplus store and pin them all over a uniform from the same store with no consideration for their proper placement or order, or even whether they're from the same branch of the military. And even the Stolen Valor people themselves have come under fire for going after anyone wearing a surplus jacket if they can't recite the Soldier's Creed or something.
I think that for some people, that moment of adoration, no matter how fleeting or tempered with puzzlement or outright suspicion, is worth it. Consider this previously on the blue, or the previouslier two comments below it. You'd think that, at some point, even the most doggedly self-deceiving person would realize that everyone's got a video camera and access to instant worldwide publishing media. Maybe these people just don't care.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:11 PM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
The problem arises when someone gets lost or whatever. All the organizers may have is a bib number with a rough description (40s male, etc.)
If the organizers were worried about that they would have a system set up to trade/return entries. I paid $150 ten months in advance for a race and tore my knee a month out. The race official answer was "you can think of it as a charitable donation, no refunds or transfers ever".
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:31 PM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
If the organizers were worried about that they would have a system set up to trade/return entries. I paid $150 ten months in advance for a race and tore my knee a month out. The race official answer was "you can think of it as a charitable donation, no refunds or transfers ever".
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:31 PM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
My favorite marathon liar is Paul Ryan. In America you can lie about finishing a marathon in under three hours and still become Speaker of the House.
posted by Nelson at 12:14 AM on September 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 12:14 AM on September 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
Two things I learned from this thread. First, bib mule. And second, no one on mefi has ever cheated at anything.
posted by tirutiru at 9:14 AM on September 17, 2017
posted by tirutiru at 9:14 AM on September 17, 2017
I don't understand the dislike for cheating single player computer games. I want something different out of the game, sometimes.
posted by jeather at 10:20 AM on September 17, 2017
posted by jeather at 10:20 AM on September 17, 2017
Two things I learned from this thread. First, bib mule. And second, no one on mefi has ever cheated at anything.
I cheated on Age of Empires.
posted by lagomorphius at 10:32 AM on September 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I cheated on Age of Empires.
posted by lagomorphius at 10:32 AM on September 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've never cheated on a computer game. I've merely gone back to a previous savepoint and replayed the part I just screwed up, which is a totally different thing. Totally different.
posted by clawsoon at 11:29 AM on September 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:29 AM on September 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think that at some point I've mentioned somewhere on the blue that I once made up sources for a history fair project when I could only find a single source for my subject; I made up titles and the "authors" were the secret identities of various X-Men. I guess that that was technically cheating, as the fair was ostensibly some sort of competition, but it's not as if I had any intention of seriously competing; it was kind of a dumb idea in the first place, which our class had no choice as to whether or not we'd participate in. A bit different from a marathon, I think.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:40 PM on September 17, 2017
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:40 PM on September 17, 2017
Also, WRT "cheating" on a computer game, not only has the ability to switch into god mode on any game that has it not only been known about for a very long time (if the game doesn't simply have "godmode" as a command), some games (in particular, Bioware) have a "narrative" difficulty setting for people who want to play through without having to have any particular reflex ability; it makes the game practically impossible to lose. I don't think that I would have gotten through the original Half-Life if I hadn't been able to bypass the stupid jumping puzzles.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:51 PM on September 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:51 PM on September 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I feel that the only way the discussion can go from here is into the The One True Way to play Scrabble.
posted by clawsoon at 12:58 PM on September 17, 2017
posted by clawsoon at 12:58 PM on September 17, 2017
I feel that the only way the discussion can go from here is into the The One True Way to play Scrabble.
What about landing on Free Parking in Monopoly?
posted by lagomorphius at 1:11 PM on September 17, 2017
What about landing on Free Parking in Monopoly?
posted by lagomorphius at 1:11 PM on September 17, 2017
The qualification standards for NYC aren't nearly as stringent as for Boston. There are a lot of ways to do NYC. For Boston, most of the people who run it are respectably fast, or they paid an enormous fee to run for a charity.
There is a third category: sponsor's exemptions. That's how I ran the Boston marathon. My previous marathon best would have qualified me for the race if I was 82 years old. The qualifying times have gotten subsequently tighter.
I don't know if it is an every year thing but there wasn't a free a jacket for Boston just a free long sleeve moisture wicking shirt. It is in high viz yellow and I like to wear it when hiking somewhere relatively remote or as a base layer for skiing. I occasionally get chatted up by clearly serious runners who try to subtlety ascertain how someone who looks like me could have qualified for Boston.
posted by mmascolino at 1:53 PM on September 17, 2017
There is a third category: sponsor's exemptions. That's how I ran the Boston marathon. My previous marathon best would have qualified me for the race if I was 82 years old. The qualifying times have gotten subsequently tighter.
I don't know if it is an every year thing but there wasn't a free a jacket for Boston just a free long sleeve moisture wicking shirt. It is in high viz yellow and I like to wear it when hiking somewhere relatively remote or as a base layer for skiing. I occasionally get chatted up by clearly serious runners who try to subtlety ascertain how someone who looks like me could have qualified for Boston.
posted by mmascolino at 1:53 PM on September 17, 2017
If the organizers were worried about that they would have a system set up to trade/return entries.
Not allowing trades/transfers makes the paperwork and tracking easy, and some races do allow transfers/refunds. Some don't. Some don't beyond a certain date. The rules and such are available before you sign up, so... caveat emptor.
I'm not sure what more there is to say - I pointed out that handing your bib to someone who isn't you can lead to other problems even in a race where nobody cares about the results. I recommend not doing it for that reason.
You can do what you like of course - people run courses without paying, cheat corners, stuff their bags with aid station goodies, and do all other sorts of other entitled nonsense. I've been doing 2+ events per month for the past 5 years and I've seen lots of nutty behavior. As a volunteer/organizer, I vastly prefer the people who follow the simple rules - it makes far less work for me.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 2:24 PM on September 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Not allowing trades/transfers makes the paperwork and tracking easy, and some races do allow transfers/refunds. Some don't. Some don't beyond a certain date. The rules and such are available before you sign up, so... caveat emptor.
I'm not sure what more there is to say - I pointed out that handing your bib to someone who isn't you can lead to other problems even in a race where nobody cares about the results. I recommend not doing it for that reason.
You can do what you like of course - people run courses without paying, cheat corners, stuff their bags with aid station goodies, and do all other sorts of other entitled nonsense. I've been doing 2+ events per month for the past 5 years and I've seen lots of nutty behavior. As a volunteer/organizer, I vastly prefer the people who follow the simple rules - it makes far less work for me.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 2:24 PM on September 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
What about landing on Free Parking in Monopoly?
Trivial next to people ignoring the auction rule, which almost everyone does. It makes the game hella more fun.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:56 PM on September 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trivial next to people ignoring the auction rule, which almost everyone does. It makes the game hella more fun.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:56 PM on September 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trivial next to people ignoring the auction rule, which almost everyone does. It makes the game hella more fun.
I only regret that I have but one favorite to give to this hella.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:30 PM on September 17, 2017
I only regret that I have but one favorite to give to this hella.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:30 PM on September 17, 2017
Not allowing trades/transfers makes the paperwork and tracking easy, and some races do allow transfers/refunds. Some don't. Some don't beyond a certain date. The rules and such are available before you sign up, so... caveat emptor.
Yep. And the organizers know they aren't going to actually check on the identity of people who are running and are creating an obvious incentive for the identity not to match their record of the bib so...caveat organizer?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:20 AM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yep. And the organizers know they aren't going to actually check on the identity of people who are running and are creating an obvious incentive for the identity not to match their record of the bib so...caveat organizer?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:20 AM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
Not allowing trades/transfers makes the paperwork and tracking easy, and some races do allow transfers/refunds. Some don't. Some don't beyond a certain date. The rules and such are available before you sign up, so... caveat emptor.
Yep. And the organizers know they aren't going to actually check on the identity of people who are running and are creating an obvious incentive for the identity not to match their record of the bib so...caveat organizer?
Even the big races are going to be relying on volunteers to hand out the bib numbers at the expo (usually there's an expo at any good-sized race). And volunteers can only do so much.
That said, some race directors seem to revel in acting like jerks. And some runners go along with this because they think it makes the race more exclusive or "tough". I had experience with one race that had some policy of permanently banning runners who ever dropped for any reason. Huh?
And ... some of the really big races sign up thousands of people who shouldn't be there to begin with. I used to volunteer at the Chicago Marathon at the 10-mile mark. After the people actually running went through there would be hours of the depressing parade of wiped out walkers slogging along who couldn't even make it ten miles. Most of these people sign up with good intentions and never finish their training, but they believe adrenaline, or something, is going to get them to the end on race day.
posted by lagomorphius at 10:09 AM on September 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
Marathon Investigation posted a follow-up today with more analysis, as well as answering the "why do you care?" question.
posted by muddgirl at 3:58 PM on September 18, 2017
posted by muddgirl at 3:58 PM on September 18, 2017
Follow-up by Runners World that gives some background on why so many people cut the course (they're using part of the route as a training run) and some other details.
posted by Etrigan at 6:01 PM on September 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 6:01 PM on September 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
I agree with MI that this isn't a "cultural" thing at all, since the Disney runs attract a lot of the same behaviors. Humans just love pointless shiny medals (as my Kongregate badges can attest).
posted by muddgirl at 6:49 PM on September 18, 2017
posted by muddgirl at 6:49 PM on September 18, 2017
Many runners with numbers jump the Peachtree Road Race 10K every year just to get the shirt. It attracts 60,000 entrants. There is simply no way to police that many runners. There are timing mats, but they are mostly to track the elites.
posted by lagomorphius at 8:24 AM on September 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by lagomorphius at 8:24 AM on September 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by oheso at 7:39 AM on September 16, 2017 [2 favorites]