White Americuh
September 18, 2017 4:07 PM Subscribe
"September 1997: Kid Rock had just landed a major-label record deal. Little-known Eminem was about to catch Dr. Dre’s ear and land his own. The face-painted duo Insane Clown Posse was grabbing headlines and hitting the charts amid controversy. Within 15 months, all would be household names in the wider music world, a strange bit of synchronicity that sparked magazine essays, cultural analysis and no small amount of head-scratching: Detroit had not only managed to produce three white rap acts. It had produced three of the most prominent of all time."20 years in, Kid Rock, Eminem and ICP are politically relevant — and culturally divided
Scott Cummings, director of the Buffalo Juggalos documentary, discussing the Juggalo March on Washington:
"Contrary to most middle-class assumptions about white poverty, a lot of Juggalos are pretty “woke,” without even knowing that term. They’re basically open minded (in Buffalo at least). There’s a strong LGBTQ presence in their world. They’re sex positive. They live in and contribute to diverse communities. They’re everything “scary” white and poor people aren’t perceived to be. I think this is probably true of many poor, disenfranchised younger people of all colors, at least in the Northeast.(also, this comment from the truereddit thread is worth a read imo)
What's unique about Juggalos is that they embrace and throw their class status in everyone's face—they’re flaunting their own disenfranchisement. Many Juggalos would say they don’t aspire to a middle-class life; they embrace poverty, and that seems un-American to some people. They've recognized that the American dream is unattainable and made new dreams for themselves. They own their poverty, but they want you to own it too. That scares people. That scares the FBI. This is not what poor people are supposed to do."
Interesting spin on Juggalos from Jacobin.
posted by ovvl at 4:25 PM on September 18, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 4:25 PM on September 18, 2017 [6 favorites]
Street Fight did an episode where they interviewed Kitty Stryker of Struggalo Circus and a couple of others that was both a love-fest and a really accessible look into the subculture. Very fun listen.
posted by Space Coyote at 4:41 PM on September 18, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 4:41 PM on September 18, 2017 [6 favorites]
Juggalos from Jacobin.
Worst Star Trek TNG episode ever!!
posted by Fizz at 4:48 PM on September 18, 2017 [35 favorites]
Worst Star Trek TNG episode ever!!
posted by Fizz at 4:48 PM on September 18, 2017 [35 favorites]
It had produced three of the most prominent of all time.
Aren't the Beastie Boys the most prominent of all time?
posted by Metro Gnome at 5:02 PM on September 18, 2017 [10 favorites]
Aren't the Beastie Boys the most prominent of all time?
posted by Metro Gnome at 5:02 PM on September 18, 2017 [10 favorites]
Eminem has had way more international reach than either ICP (virtually none) or Kid Rock (very limited) and even the Beastie Boys.
posted by biffa at 5:40 PM on September 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by biffa at 5:40 PM on September 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
Aren't the Beastie Boys the most prominent of all time?
It said "three of the most prominent". Not "the three most prominent".
posted by good in a vacuum at 5:44 PM on September 18, 2017 [15 favorites]
It said "three of the most prominent". Not "the three most prominent".
posted by good in a vacuum at 5:44 PM on September 18, 2017 [15 favorites]
Steffe's friend Bonnie Garvin-Jones, 42, is a longtime Kid Rock fan from Grand Rapids. She described herself as a true-blue liberal and Democratic supporter who isn't bothered by Rock's political moves.
"He has his own mind. That's what I like about him," she said. "Even though he's a Trump supporter, I love him."
If you’re happy to subject yourself to Kid Rock standing behind a podium and ranting about welfare queens and how gays are too gay and then commend him for having “his own mind,” yoooouuuuuuu might be a Republican.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:59 PM on September 18, 2017 [40 favorites]
"He has his own mind. That's what I like about him," she said. "Even though he's a Trump supporter, I love him."
If you’re happy to subject yourself to Kid Rock standing behind a podium and ranting about welfare queens and how gays are too gay and then commend him for having “his own mind,” yoooouuuuuuu might be a Republican.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:59 PM on September 18, 2017 [40 favorites]
wait.... i have a vague sense that we used to not like juggalos?
Is this just an "enemy of my enemy" thing? Have they undergone some sort of re-branding? Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
posted by rebent at 6:00 PM on September 18, 2017 [4 favorites]
Is this just an "enemy of my enemy" thing? Have they undergone some sort of re-branding? Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
posted by rebent at 6:00 PM on September 18, 2017 [4 favorites]
Aren't the Beastie Boys the most prominent of all time?
No, they really aren't. Eminem is by far the most prominent and important white rapper in the history of the genre, and the Beastie Boys are kind of a footnote by comparison. He's pretty far up there if you remove the word "white" from that phrase as well.
posted by 256 at 6:03 PM on September 18, 2017 [13 favorites]
No, they really aren't. Eminem is by far the most prominent and important white rapper in the history of the genre, and the Beastie Boys are kind of a footnote by comparison. He's pretty far up there if you remove the word "white" from that phrase as well.
posted by 256 at 6:03 PM on September 18, 2017 [13 favorites]
The whole not liking Nazis thing does indeed help a lot.
Also previously the canonical worse thing Jugalos had done was throw garbage at Tula Tequila, and it turns out that she's a Nazi these days, so now that's just looking prescient.
posted by Artw at 6:09 PM on September 18, 2017 [28 favorites]
Also previously the canonical worse thing Jugalos had done was throw garbage at Tula Tequila, and it turns out that she's a Nazi these days, so now that's just looking prescient.
posted by Artw at 6:09 PM on September 18, 2017 [28 favorites]
Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
I dunno about anybody else, but even though I never liked ICP's music myself, it was the soundtrack of the year or two after I graduated from high school, when it was always playing in the car of the one friend in our group who actually had a reliable car circa 1999. Everybody I ever knew who liked them has been cool, not in the "dresses the right way" kind of cool, but in the "good people to be around" kind of way. I still don't get it, but I don't get why they were ever on the hate radar, except for being so aggressively lower-class.
posted by Sequence at 6:11 PM on September 18, 2017 [11 favorites]
I dunno about anybody else, but even though I never liked ICP's music myself, it was the soundtrack of the year or two after I graduated from high school, when it was always playing in the car of the one friend in our group who actually had a reliable car circa 1999. Everybody I ever knew who liked them has been cool, not in the "dresses the right way" kind of cool, but in the "good people to be around" kind of way. I still don't get it, but I don't get why they were ever on the hate radar, except for being so aggressively lower-class.
posted by Sequence at 6:11 PM on September 18, 2017 [11 favorites]
It is definitely not right to lump Kid Rock in with Eminem and ICP. Dude grew up fucking rich, on a six-acre estate funded by his dad's multiple successful car dealerships. His entire persona is an act.
posted by kafziel at 6:19 PM on September 18, 2017 [52 favorites]
posted by kafziel at 6:19 PM on September 18, 2017 [52 favorites]
ICP was big among the teenagers I knew from the Navajo/Acoma/Laguna reservations in the aughts, FWIW.
posted by PMdixon at 6:23 PM on September 18, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by PMdixon at 6:23 PM on September 18, 2017 [11 favorites]
wait.... i have a vague sense that we used to not like juggalos?
Is this just an "enemy of my enemy" thing? Have they undergone some sort of re-branding? Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
They've always been a very easy target, if you felt like punching down, but anti-racism has been baked in since the beginning. ICP's music has always had a murder-heavy theme, and their debut album had the song "Your Rebel Flag" specifically about murdering racists, nazi skinheads, and "biggots" who fly confederate flags.
posted by kafziel at 6:26 PM on September 18, 2017 [19 favorites]
Is this just an "enemy of my enemy" thing? Have they undergone some sort of re-branding? Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
They've always been a very easy target, if you felt like punching down, but anti-racism has been baked in since the beginning. ICP's music has always had a murder-heavy theme, and their debut album had the song "Your Rebel Flag" specifically about murdering racists, nazi skinheads, and "biggots" who fly confederate flags.
posted by kafziel at 6:26 PM on September 18, 2017 [19 favorites]
rebent: wait.... i have a vague sense that we used to not like juggalos? Is this just an "enemy of my enemy" thing? Have they undergone some sort of re-branding? Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
In some of the earlier threads on Juggalos, there have been some mind-changing comments from the inside:
posted by clawsoon at 6:26 PM on September 18, 2017 [70 favorites]
In some of the earlier threads on Juggalos, there have been some mind-changing comments from the inside:
Then I need to point out that the juggalo family is for people who don't have any other family. It's for poor and dirty people, it's for losers, it's for the people everyone you made fun of in high school made fun of, it's for the bottom rung. So there's a mostly-unspoken bond between ICP fans that is impossible to know or understand from the outside, and even though I can already see you sneering at your screen because you're so much better and smarter than that, you're worse off for missing out, believe me.Classism certainly played a part in the disdain for Juggalos, in the unwillingness to see that they were more willing to accept and embrace the marginalized than many of us well-educated liberals and progressives who know how to say the right things are.
I'm a decade+ removed from my cross-country roadtripping days but I'll never forget the positively radical kindness that rained down like so much Faygo from juggalos all and sundry when I was in the thick of it in the early aughts. Anything you needed, someone would make sure you got it. Complete strangers would work tirelessly to bring you to the next show because they knew how much you needed to be there. I once slept in a trailer parked in the middle of a field in rural Indiana where the only place to relieve yourself was a 5-gallon bucket parked in the corner, but the dude who called that place home still managed to scrounge up some snacks and gas money so we could all pile back into some other dude's minivan and hit the road bound for Detroit. There was nowhere else we felt safe, nowhere else that felt like home.
posted by clawsoon at 6:26 PM on September 18, 2017 [70 favorites]
Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
If you look back at most of the threads about them here, there's always been at least a few people explaining the good side of ICP.
posted by Candleman at 6:27 PM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
If you look back at most of the threads about them here, there's always been at least a few people explaining the good side of ICP.
posted by Candleman at 6:27 PM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't know much about ICP or the Juggalos, but I'm pleased and surprised that a mostly-white crowd seeking an identity has apparently avoided ones based around being white. Racism and Confederate revanchism must be pretty damn seductive because they're practically baked into white American society. Juggalos are turning their backs on the only groups that would be willing to tell them that they're special people who were born special. That's pretty impressive.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:37 PM on September 18, 2017 [76 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:37 PM on September 18, 2017 [76 favorites]
> the most prominent and important white rapper in the history of the genre, and the Beastie Boys are kind of a footnote by comparison.
*dies a little inside*
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:41 PM on September 18, 2017 [20 favorites]
*dies a little inside*
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:41 PM on September 18, 2017 [20 favorites]
KID ROCK IS FROM FREAKING MOUNT CLEMENS THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
*whew*
Sorry. This new tendency of suburban white kids to claim Detroit affiliation drives me up the wall.
posted by praemunire at 6:42 PM on September 18, 2017 [23 favorites]
*whew*
Sorry. This new tendency of suburban white kids to claim Detroit affiliation drives me up the wall.
posted by praemunire at 6:42 PM on September 18, 2017 [23 favorites]
I feel like the Beastie Boys as rappers has been retconned out of history. In a post-Eminem world, the Beastie Boys version of "rap" seems quaint.
I mean the song White Lines seems kind of quaint, but that doesn't mean - like the Beastie Boys, it wasn't important to the development of modern hip-hop. The Beastie Boys were almost at Ground 0 of mainstream hip-hop - and they were affluent Jewish dudes that started out in a hardcore band!
The sampling on Paul's Boutique is incredible, and was all done with analogue equipment. If the Beastie Boys don't seem relevant, it's because we live in a Beastie Boys World of genre defying and cut-and-pasting. It's transparent to all of us, since it's so prevalent and influential. It's like saying the Velvet Underground just aren't that important to rock music anymore. It's like saying we could have done without The Stooges, and rock music of today would just be the same. I sincerely disagree. Are we going to forget David Bowie because of Lady Gaga? Ha!
posted by alex_skazat at 7:07 PM on September 18, 2017 [43 favorites]
I mean the song White Lines seems kind of quaint, but that doesn't mean - like the Beastie Boys, it wasn't important to the development of modern hip-hop. The Beastie Boys were almost at Ground 0 of mainstream hip-hop - and they were affluent Jewish dudes that started out in a hardcore band!
The sampling on Paul's Boutique is incredible, and was all done with analogue equipment. If the Beastie Boys don't seem relevant, it's because we live in a Beastie Boys World of genre defying and cut-and-pasting. It's transparent to all of us, since it's so prevalent and influential. It's like saying the Velvet Underground just aren't that important to rock music anymore. It's like saying we could have done without The Stooges, and rock music of today would just be the same. I sincerely disagree. Are we going to forget David Bowie because of Lady Gaga? Ha!
posted by alex_skazat at 7:07 PM on September 18, 2017 [43 favorites]
Mod note: Interesting sidebar but let's call it good on the Beastie Boys thing, since these links aren't about them.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:16 PM on September 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:16 PM on September 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
That Reddit comment is really good, as is that Jacobin article. I'm especially glad that the Jacobin article called out People of Walmart for the classist garbage that it is. That site had been a huge pet peeve of mine ever since it showed up. And all these supposed bleeding hearts I know thought it was the funniest thing ever, and thought Juggalos were the funniest thing ever. Your progressive values don't mean so much when you're still thinking of people as losers and freaks.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 7:32 PM on September 18, 2017 [24 favorites]
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 7:32 PM on September 18, 2017 [24 favorites]
They're good Juggalos, Brent.
posted by mikeand1 at 7:55 PM on September 18, 2017 [24 favorites]
posted by mikeand1 at 7:55 PM on September 18, 2017 [24 favorites]
I'm pleased and surprised that a mostly-white crowd seeking an identity has apparently avoided ones based around being white.
Well, like, apart from the face paint.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:07 PM on September 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
Well, like, apart from the face paint.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:07 PM on September 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
In some of the earlier threads on Juggalos, there have been some mind-changing comments from the inside:
I'm definitely someone who found the Juggalos sort of funny in a gross way, but had my mind opened by a combination of comments in previous threads here, and some of the links in those FPPs (like, right now I'm reading my way through the interviews in the Buffalo Juggalos tumblr). There's something interesting and worth noticing in it, for all that I'm never going to be a fan of their music or have any interest in being sprayed with soda.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:07 PM on September 18, 2017 [6 favorites]
I'm definitely someone who found the Juggalos sort of funny in a gross way, but had my mind opened by a combination of comments in previous threads here, and some of the links in those FPPs (like, right now I'm reading my way through the interviews in the Buffalo Juggalos tumblr). There's something interesting and worth noticing in it, for all that I'm never going to be a fan of their music or have any interest in being sprayed with soda.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:07 PM on September 18, 2017 [6 favorites]
Metafilter used to have a problem with Juggalos because Metafilter as a whole is pretty classist even though we try not to be. (Also, we didn't used to try very hard; MeFi was a different place back in the day.) Plus, the music is incredibly violent, and if all you know about them is murder-rap and scary clown makeup you might be forgiven for assuming that they're assholes. We eventually learned though that they are a pretty decent bunch underneath all the high weirdness. Despite appearances, the community seems to be motivated by love rather than hate.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:09 PM on September 18, 2017 [40 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:09 PM on September 18, 2017 [40 favorites]
The Metro Times did a cursory comparison of political speeches by Kid Rock and ICP.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:09 PM on September 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:09 PM on September 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
Sorry. This new tendency of suburban white kids to claim Detroit affiliation drives me up the wall.
New?
posted by theclaw at 8:12 PM on September 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
New?
posted by theclaw at 8:12 PM on September 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
To map it in another way: ICP is the MC5 and Kid Rock is Ted Nugent.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:13 PM on September 18, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:13 PM on September 18, 2017 [26 favorites]
wait.... i have a vague sense that we used to not like juggalos?
Is this just an "enemy of my enemy" thing? Have they undergone some sort of re-branding? Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
I remember the whole "fucking magnets, how do they work?" meme playing a part in the general mockery of ICP as a bunch of science-denying evangelists in the early 2010s. It's only very recently that I'd heard of their anti-racism work and progressive values. So no, you're not the only one who was caught off guard by the whole "Juggalos are maybe better people than we stereotyped them to be?" thing.
posted by ProtectoroftheSmall at 8:14 PM on September 18, 2017 [11 favorites]
Is this just an "enemy of my enemy" thing? Have they undergone some sort of re-branding? Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
I remember the whole "fucking magnets, how do they work?" meme playing a part in the general mockery of ICP as a bunch of science-denying evangelists in the early 2010s. It's only very recently that I'd heard of their anti-racism work and progressive values. So no, you're not the only one who was caught off guard by the whole "Juggalos are maybe better people than we stereotyped them to be?" thing.
posted by ProtectoroftheSmall at 8:14 PM on September 18, 2017 [11 favorites]
The music is really not impressive but I've come to have some respect for the sense of community.
posted by atoxyl at 8:38 PM on September 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 8:38 PM on September 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
This Jon Ronson interview with ICP is interesting (and also explains the origin of a beef between ICP and Eminem that apparently exists).
posted by retrograde at 8:50 PM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by retrograde at 8:50 PM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
As another data point, I'm from southeast Michigan and, while I've never personally liked ICP's music, every ICP fan I've ever known has been a legitimately thoughtful and kind person. (This is also true of Slipknot, for what it's worth.)
posted by IAmUnaware at 9:00 PM on September 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by IAmUnaware at 9:00 PM on September 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
I went to the Juggalo March, walked alongside them, and stayed through to the concluding ICP performance. I found them to be self-aware and good-humored. Some of the signs: "we know how magnets work," "it's okay, we hate Juggalos, too," and "the FBI listen to Nickelback." They weren't the least embarassed by the many gawkers and gladly posed for photos.
The word of the day was "family," which the Juggalos repeated as a chant (alongside many "whoop whoops"). I heard many speakers talk of self-love, self-improvement, and growing inclusivity. The FBI beef was kind of a footnote; more like here's our chance to publicly affirm ourselves.
Rachel Paul—the Vice-branded "the face of Juggalo feminism"—gave the best speech of the day. I recorded video of most of it [some flashing lights at the start].
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 9:18 PM on September 18, 2017 [45 favorites]
The word of the day was "family," which the Juggalos repeated as a chant (alongside many "whoop whoops"). I heard many speakers talk of self-love, self-improvement, and growing inclusivity. The FBI beef was kind of a footnote; more like here's our chance to publicly affirm ourselves.
Rachel Paul—the Vice-branded "the face of Juggalo feminism"—gave the best speech of the day. I recorded video of most of it [some flashing lights at the start].
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 9:18 PM on September 18, 2017 [45 favorites]
New?
Well, okay, for national cachet. It was irritating when kids from Bloomfield Hills said they were from Detroit back in the day, but that was out of laziness, not coolhunting.
posted by praemunire at 9:20 PM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well, okay, for national cachet. It was irritating when kids from Bloomfield Hills said they were from Detroit back in the day, but that was out of laziness, not coolhunting.
posted by praemunire at 9:20 PM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
Plus, the music is incredibly violent
Contrast the general Metafilter vibe about the show Hannibal versus the general Metafilter vibe about ICP. I really don't think the violence is the problem; the aesthetic is the problem. Which I don't say as a purely about-other-people thing. It's a problem for me, too--it's why I can say that I support them but I'm not one of them.
The magnets thing has kind of stuck with me in a weird way. Like yeah, I get it, it's funny. But the people I knew who were into their music, long before that song came out, they weren't anti-intellectual. They were people who by and large had struggled to get whatever educational opportunities they could and then generally got shat on when it came to trying to get jobs and health care and other things that would enable further education, but they weren't against it at all. Some of them now have graduate degrees. One of the ones with a graduate degree now does glorified clerical work. The memefication of Miracles cast ICP fans as idiots... perpetuated by a lot of the same people who were happy to share Facebook posts about how they "fucking love science" that were incredibly light on the actual science and heavy on the "hey look at this cool thing". It's the aesthetic, and they know it's the aesthetic.
posted by Sequence at 9:32 PM on September 18, 2017 [31 favorites]
Contrast the general Metafilter vibe about the show Hannibal versus the general Metafilter vibe about ICP. I really don't think the violence is the problem; the aesthetic is the problem. Which I don't say as a purely about-other-people thing. It's a problem for me, too--it's why I can say that I support them but I'm not one of them.
The magnets thing has kind of stuck with me in a weird way. Like yeah, I get it, it's funny. But the people I knew who were into their music, long before that song came out, they weren't anti-intellectual. They were people who by and large had struggled to get whatever educational opportunities they could and then generally got shat on when it came to trying to get jobs and health care and other things that would enable further education, but they weren't against it at all. Some of them now have graduate degrees. One of the ones with a graduate degree now does glorified clerical work. The memefication of Miracles cast ICP fans as idiots... perpetuated by a lot of the same people who were happy to share Facebook posts about how they "fucking love science" that were incredibly light on the actual science and heavy on the "hey look at this cool thing". It's the aesthetic, and they know it's the aesthetic.
posted by Sequence at 9:32 PM on September 18, 2017 [31 favorites]
Or have they always been legit decent and I just didn't notice?
Metafilter pretty much hates everyone who doesn't live in Manhattan.
ICP have been.... well, I was too old for them by about 5 years, but I picked up what they were putting down and have had a respect for them since the late 90s. I was their target market growing up - dirt poor white trash loser.
Funny story - few months ago, I was headed to a work meeting downtown, and passed some juggalos hanging outside a venue waiting for a show to start. They were all in piercings and tattoos and whatnot - young punk kids. I was all in khakis and button down - solid pasty white middle manager asshole. As I approached, one of them said "hey, make some room for the suit" and they cleared a path. As I got there I said, "Thanks, ninjas!" and they all started whooping.
Thing is - 20 years ago, I was those punk kids. I imagine it was as incomprehensible to them as well.
I'm not super onboard with the pseudo-Christianity thing, and I don't really care for the music in general, though there is a song or two that I like. ICP could be doing far worse - KissArmy was a thing that existed, after all.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:49 PM on September 18, 2017 [33 favorites]
Metafilter pretty much hates everyone who doesn't live in Manhattan.
ICP have been.... well, I was too old for them by about 5 years, but I picked up what they were putting down and have had a respect for them since the late 90s. I was their target market growing up - dirt poor white trash loser.
Funny story - few months ago, I was headed to a work meeting downtown, and passed some juggalos hanging outside a venue waiting for a show to start. They were all in piercings and tattoos and whatnot - young punk kids. I was all in khakis and button down - solid pasty white middle manager asshole. As I approached, one of them said "hey, make some room for the suit" and they cleared a path. As I got there I said, "Thanks, ninjas!" and they all started whooping.
Thing is - 20 years ago, I was those punk kids. I imagine it was as incomprehensible to them as well.
I'm not super onboard with the pseudo-Christianity thing, and I don't really care for the music in general, though there is a song or two that I like. ICP could be doing far worse - KissArmy was a thing that existed, after all.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:49 PM on September 18, 2017 [33 favorites]
Kid Rock is going to have a lot to answer for when the revolution comes, but if I'm the one putting him up against the wall I'm going to whisper "This is for making me think I was about to hear Werewolves of London when I was not in fact about to hear Werewolves of London, you fuck" in his ear as I do so.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 9:55 PM on September 18, 2017 [50 favorites]
posted by Parasite Unseen at 9:55 PM on September 18, 2017 [50 favorites]
"Let's Go All the Way" is basically if "Imagine" were written by someone who grew up poor, isn't it
posted by DoctorFedora at 10:02 PM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 10:02 PM on September 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
One of the keys to happiness is redefining what a miracle means to yourself.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:31 PM on September 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 10:31 PM on September 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
The magnet thing has always puzzled me...
Indeed. One of the smartest dudes in the history of physics also appreciated the profundity of magnets.
posted by mikeand1 at 10:41 PM on September 18, 2017 [10 favorites]
Indeed. One of the smartest dudes in the history of physics also appreciated the profundity of magnets.
posted by mikeand1 at 10:41 PM on September 18, 2017 [10 favorites]
"Let's Go All the Way" is basically if "Imagine" were written by someone who grew up poor, isn't it
Compare it to the original.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:14 PM on September 18, 2017
Compare it to the original.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:14 PM on September 18, 2017
> This new tendency of suburban white kids to claim Detroit affiliation drives me up the wall.
It's not new and it's not necessarily cool hunting.
When you're somewhere far away and people ask where you come from, you can say, "I'm from [name of far exurb that used to be a small town]" and then the questioner's blank face will prompt you to explain where that is, and you've moved the conversation to one of where it is in relation to the big city, all of which is probably a derail for what the other person had just intended to be smalltalk.
Or you can say, "I'm from [big city 30 miles from home that everybody has heard of]", the questioner got exactly as much information as they wanted with exactly as much accuracy as they needed (which is to say, no accuracy at all because it doesn't matter), and the conversation can politely end there or move on to something more interesting than midwestern sociopolitical geography.
All of which is to say, the inclination of people to say they're from Detroit has some relationship to their ambitions in music or arts scenes, but probably more often, and especially when they're not twennysomething scenesters, it's because they don't feel like talking about it.
posted by ardgedee at 3:09 AM on September 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
It's not new and it's not necessarily cool hunting.
When you're somewhere far away and people ask where you come from, you can say, "I'm from [name of far exurb that used to be a small town]" and then the questioner's blank face will prompt you to explain where that is, and you've moved the conversation to one of where it is in relation to the big city, all of which is probably a derail for what the other person had just intended to be smalltalk.
Or you can say, "I'm from [big city 30 miles from home that everybody has heard of]", the questioner got exactly as much information as they wanted with exactly as much accuracy as they needed (which is to say, no accuracy at all because it doesn't matter), and the conversation can politely end there or move on to something more interesting than midwestern sociopolitical geography.
All of which is to say, the inclination of people to say they're from Detroit has some relationship to their ambitions in music or arts scenes, but probably more often, and especially when they're not twennysomething scenesters, it's because they don't feel like talking about it.
posted by ardgedee at 3:09 AM on September 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
> wait.... i have a vague sense that we used to not like juggalos?
We used to not like furries either. Times change, we get older and learn tolerance.
posted by ardgedee at 3:13 AM on September 19, 2017 [14 favorites]
We used to not like furries either. Times change, we get older and learn tolerance.
posted by ardgedee at 3:13 AM on September 19, 2017 [14 favorites]
b1tr0t: The magnet thing has always puzzled me because magnetism is one of the fundamental forces. You can describe the behavior of magnets, you can unify magnetism with the other fundamental forces, but no one has yet been able to get to something deeper than magnetism.
I had a similar reaction. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the people laughing at, "Fucking magnets, how do they work?" had, like me, little-to-no real understanding of magnets. A couple of weeks ago, I had my mind blown by learning that some forms of iron aren't magnetic. If I understood how magnets work, that wouldn't be a surprise to me at all. In fact, if I really understood magnets, I would've been able to predict in advance which forms of iron would be magnetic and which ones wouldn't. But I wasn't, and I can't. Fucking magnets, I don't know how they work, and neither do most people.
posted by clawsoon at 3:50 AM on September 19, 2017 [28 favorites]
I had a similar reaction. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the people laughing at, "Fucking magnets, how do they work?" had, like me, little-to-no real understanding of magnets. A couple of weeks ago, I had my mind blown by learning that some forms of iron aren't magnetic. If I understood how magnets work, that wouldn't be a surprise to me at all. In fact, if I really understood magnets, I would've been able to predict in advance which forms of iron would be magnetic and which ones wouldn't. But I wasn't, and I can't. Fucking magnets, I don't know how they work, and neither do most people.
posted by clawsoon at 3:50 AM on September 19, 2017 [28 favorites]
> Or you can say, "I'm from [big city 30 miles from home that everybody has heard of]", the questioner got exactly as much information as they wanted with exactly as much accuracy as they needed (which is to say, no accuracy at all because it doesn't matter), and the conversation can politely end there or move on to something more interesting than midwestern sociopolitical geography.
okay but in exactly the same sense that every conversation in America is a conversation about race, every conversation about Michigan is a conversation about midwestern sociopolitical geography.
"Detroit" and "the Detroit suburbs" are different places. They're different because the folks living in the suburbs by and large fear and loathe the folks living in Detroit, and have been diligently working to use every lever of government they can get their hands on to fuck over the folks living in Detroit (see: literally every thing that longstanding Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson has ever done in his entire life).
It is important info to know whether or not one is from Detroit or from the suburbs. It is not ethical — really, it's pretty shitty — to claim the cool of the former while having actually grown up in the comfort of the latter. Say "Detroit suburbs" unless you're actually from Detroit. Yes, even if you're from like Hamtramck.
(dang though Kid Rock grew up in Mt. Clemens? That is so far out it's barely even a suburb.)
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:08 AM on September 19, 2017 [17 favorites]
okay but in exactly the same sense that every conversation in America is a conversation about race, every conversation about Michigan is a conversation about midwestern sociopolitical geography.
"Detroit" and "the Detroit suburbs" are different places. They're different because the folks living in the suburbs by and large fear and loathe the folks living in Detroit, and have been diligently working to use every lever of government they can get their hands on to fuck over the folks living in Detroit (see: literally every thing that longstanding Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson has ever done in his entire life).
It is important info to know whether or not one is from Detroit or from the suburbs. It is not ethical — really, it's pretty shitty — to claim the cool of the former while having actually grown up in the comfort of the latter. Say "Detroit suburbs" unless you're actually from Detroit. Yes, even if you're from like Hamtramck.
(dang though Kid Rock grew up in Mt. Clemens? That is so far out it's barely even a suburb.)
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:08 AM on September 19, 2017 [17 favorites]
Yeah, those of us from tiny places nobody has heard of always have the option of "I'm from near/just outside of [city]" rather than "I'm from [city]". Practically everyone will leave it at just that, and only people who'd know and care about regional distinctions in the area are going to ask the follow up questions about where exactly.
posted by Dysk at 4:15 AM on September 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:15 AM on September 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
You Can't Tip a Buick: (dang though Kid Rock grew up in Mt. Clemens? That is so far out it's barely even a suburb.)
It's another illustration of the fact that politics in the US isn't red states vs. blue states, but urban vs. suburban vs. rural. To a rough approximation, illustrated by all three examples in the story, population density is political destiny.
posted by clawsoon at 4:17 AM on September 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
It's another illustration of the fact that politics in the US isn't red states vs. blue states, but urban vs. suburban vs. rural. To a rough approximation, illustrated by all three examples in the story, population density is political destiny.
posted by clawsoon at 4:17 AM on September 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
Metafilter pretty much hates everyone who doesn't live in Manhattan.
With the corollary that Metafilter also likes to rag on New Yorkers' self-centeredness.
We used to not like furries either. Times change, we get older and learn tolerance.
I'd never thought about it before, but there must be furry juggalos (or juggalo furries, depending on which is the primary identifier). Those would be some fantastic parties.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:32 AM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
With the corollary that Metafilter also likes to rag on New Yorkers' self-centeredness.
We used to not like furries either. Times change, we get older and learn tolerance.
I'd never thought about it before, but there must be furry juggalos (or juggalo furries, depending on which is the primary identifier). Those would be some fantastic parties.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:32 AM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm picturing a Hatchetman fursuit, although I'm not entirely sure how that would work.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:39 AM on September 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by uncleozzy at 5:39 AM on September 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
For a deeper dive into the history of Detroit rap with ICP (and how they were influenced by it), I heartily recommend this Nardwuar interview.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:23 AM on September 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:23 AM on September 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Kid Rock is, and has always been, so terrible.
ICP falls into the category of "music I don't listen to and don't like" but I'm kind of glad their weirdness is in the world.
Eminem is a poet. And a rapper. But also a poet. See: Campaign Speech. Poet Laureate of the US.
posted by millipede at 7:23 AM on September 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
ICP falls into the category of "music I don't listen to and don't like" but I'm kind of glad their weirdness is in the world.
Eminem is a poet. And a rapper. But also a poet. See: Campaign Speech. Poet Laureate of the US.
posted by millipede at 7:23 AM on September 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
As far as fans of music I don't like go, the Juggalo folks have always seemed mostly okie-dokie in my book. They're less annoying than Jimmy Buffet freaks ("parrotheads") but I live in Florida. ICP features some really violent misogynist lyrics that give me the creeps, but so did Johnny Cash.
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:00 AM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:00 AM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Poet Laureate of the US
lol, nope
posted by thelonius at 10:42 AM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
lol, nope
posted by thelonius at 10:42 AM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Isn't Eminem's relationship with women (or his ex-wife, anyway?) supposed to be well over the line of repugnance? I don't follow him at all, but poking around for a minute one finds an Atlantic article called Why 'Love the Way You Lie' Does Not Redeem Eminem that cites one of his lyrics as "I'll be nicer to women when Aquaman drowns and Human Torch starts swimmin'," and another as "Yeah I laugh when I call you a slut, it's funny."
posted by mr. digits at 10:54 AM on September 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by mr. digits at 10:54 AM on September 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
I don't think that there's necessarily any such thing as true MeFi groupthink, although the site does tend to skew liberal (and even then, there are exceptions; I miss St. Alia of the Bunnies, sometimes). Most of the anti-Juggalo remarks that I've seen here tend to be drive-by snark (of which I myself have been guilty), and the classism is much more rife on other sites, even when those same sites use pictures of topless Juggalettes to lure page clicks.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:58 AM on September 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:58 AM on September 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Eminem went big during the 2004 presidential election with the anti-Bush song and video 'Mosh.''"
Mosh
(Previously, link goes to website selling 'Scanguard')
posted by homunculus at 12:18 PM on September 19, 2017
Mosh
(Previously, link goes to website selling 'Scanguard')
posted by homunculus at 12:18 PM on September 19, 2017
Kid Rock is, and has always been, so terrible.
Drunk Ted Nugent, basically. Which is pretty fucking bad.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:35 PM on September 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Drunk Ted Nugent, basically. Which is pretty fucking bad.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:35 PM on September 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Isn't Eminem's relationship with women (or his ex-wife, anyway?) supposed to be well over the line of repugnance?
There's a lot of really hateful sexism and homophobia (though not really any racism, at least) in Eminem's body of work. He himself has argued many times (in both lyrics and interviews) that it's mostly performative and an artistic part of the character Slim Shady, and that we need to make a distinction between that character and the man Marshall Mathers. Of course, at the same time, he seems to delight in blurring the lines between the two in his lyrics and also explicitly stating--in lyrics--that we should take what he's saying seriously ("These motherfuckers are thinkin' I'm playin'. Thinkin' I'm sayin' the shit cause I'm thinkin' it just to be sayin' it.").
In the end, whether we believe the performative defence or not, and whether we think it even counts as a defence if it's true, even the interpretation of everything he's said that gives Eminem the maximum benefit of the doubt still results in Marshall Mathers looking like a bit of a dick.
But all of that is entirely besides the point when discussing his obvious artistic brilliance and undeniable influence.
posted by 256 at 12:42 PM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's a lot of really hateful sexism and homophobia (though not really any racism, at least) in Eminem's body of work. He himself has argued many times (in both lyrics and interviews) that it's mostly performative and an artistic part of the character Slim Shady, and that we need to make a distinction between that character and the man Marshall Mathers. Of course, at the same time, he seems to delight in blurring the lines between the two in his lyrics and also explicitly stating--in lyrics--that we should take what he's saying seriously ("These motherfuckers are thinkin' I'm playin'. Thinkin' I'm sayin' the shit cause I'm thinkin' it just to be sayin' it.").
In the end, whether we believe the performative defence or not, and whether we think it even counts as a defence if it's true, even the interpretation of everything he's said that gives Eminem the maximum benefit of the doubt still results in Marshall Mathers looking like a bit of a dick.
But all of that is entirely besides the point when discussing his obvious artistic brilliance and undeniable influence.
posted by 256 at 12:42 PM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Can you still call yourself Kid when you look about 187?
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:06 PM on September 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:06 PM on September 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
> It's another illustration of the fact that politics in the US isn't red states vs. blue states, but urban vs. suburban vs. rural. To a rough approximation, illustrated by all three examples in the story, population density is political destiny.
I mean, sort of yes, but also no. The distinction between the Detroit suburbs and Detroit isn't really about population density — note that the city itself isn't particularly dense anymore, due to having lost half its population over the last 50 years. Instead, it's about white supremacy. The suburbs reap the benefits of white supremacist culture and government; the city is under continual assault from white supremacist culture and government.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:08 PM on September 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
I mean, sort of yes, but also no. The distinction between the Detroit suburbs and Detroit isn't really about population density — note that the city itself isn't particularly dense anymore, due to having lost half its population over the last 50 years. Instead, it's about white supremacy. The suburbs reap the benefits of white supremacist culture and government; the city is under continual assault from white supremacist culture and government.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:08 PM on September 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
Juggalos march on Washington: ‘We’re a family not a gang'
Liked this Guardian article and vid re the march... esp sad re the woman who lost her job as a probation officer coz she'd liked a few ICP posts on facebook
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:12 PM on September 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Liked this Guardian article and vid re the march... esp sad re the woman who lost her job as a probation officer coz she'd liked a few ICP posts on facebook
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:12 PM on September 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
wait.... i have a vague sense that we used to not like juggalos?
yeah, I can remember griping re the Great Annual Mefi Posting Of The Trailer For The Gathering*
But the laughing at them has shifted to laughing with them (it sure has on my part)... god I was the oddball-ish weirdo from a poor rural background, if I'd been on the other side of the Atlantic I might have ended up with The Clown myself*
*(I'm not sure I ever found out why one of their regulars was the 'Hitchcock of hip hop' but I'm come to peace with that)
** (Well if I actually liked their music)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:22 PM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
yeah, I can remember griping re the Great Annual Mefi Posting Of The Trailer For The Gathering*
But the laughing at them has shifted to laughing with them (it sure has on my part)... god I was the oddball-ish weirdo from a poor rural background, if I'd been on the other side of the Atlantic I might have ended up with The Clown myself*
*(I'm not sure I ever found out why one of their regulars was the 'Hitchcock of hip hop' but I'm come to peace with that)
** (Well if I actually liked their music)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:22 PM on September 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, the suburban and rural in Michigan are happy to hold (white) hands while stomping the urban.
posted by praemunire at 2:39 PM on September 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 2:39 PM on September 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Dude, I've defended juggalos on this site for years. It only took literally electing a white supremacist for people to come around on them. But there's so much classism baked into white liberal thought that I have no doubt most of the people who support the juggalos now won't anymore once our current national nightmare ends.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:45 PM on September 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:45 PM on September 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
Yep, go into my post history to see me digging in hard against Juggalos, not even that long ago. But here we are fighting a revolution, and they've chosen the right side. If you are a working class antifascist, you are my comrade.
posted by Krawczak at 4:21 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Krawczak at 4:21 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
I just assumed ICP and Juggaloes, skewed conservative, the way a lot of poor whites seem to. Instead they're my homies. Who knew.
posted by evilDoug at 5:05 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by evilDoug at 5:05 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Juggalos Marched For Their Rights This Weekend. Will They March For Yours?
posted by clavicle at 7:39 AM on September 21, 2017
posted by clavicle at 7:39 AM on September 21, 2017
Will you march for theirs? Will you march for yours?
posted by Artw at 7:51 AM on September 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:51 AM on September 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
Wow, what a wretched article.
posted by kafziel at 11:38 AM on September 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by kafziel at 11:38 AM on September 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
"The crowd is mostly white, but it’s more diverse than you might suspect: There are a few people of color, plenty of queer-identifying folks, and a number of people with disabilities."
A number? I'm gonna guess the author was only counting people with visible physical disabilities.
I guess your intersectionality doesn't include fighting ableism.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:01 PM on September 22, 2017
A number? I'm gonna guess the author was only counting people with visible physical disabilities.
I guess your intersectionality doesn't include fighting ableism.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:01 PM on September 22, 2017
Eminem lambasts Donald Trump in freestyle rap
What Makes Eminem's Trump Diss Special (and What Doesn't): The rapper’s unique in speaking to the president's supporters—but his freestyle is otherwise typical of 2017’s hip-hop politics.
posted by homunculus at 3:39 PM on October 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Eminem has released a lyrical tirade against Donald Trump, and called on any of his fans who support the president to choose a side. The rapper took aim at Trump in a freestyle rap video that aired as part of BET's hip-hop awards on Tuesday night. Eminem focused several times on Trump's ongoing campaign against NFL national anthem protests, rapping: ‘So we focus on that instead of talking Puerto Rico or gun reform for Nevada. All these horrible tragedies and he's bored and would rather cause a Twitter storm with the Packers’ • Eminem unleashes freestyle rap attack on 'kamikaze, racist, orange' TrumpEminem Delivers a Critique as Vulgar as the President: An unlikely champion of civic values offers a blistering TV performance.
What Makes Eminem's Trump Diss Special (and What Doesn't): The rapper’s unique in speaking to the president's supporters—but his freestyle is otherwise typical of 2017’s hip-hop politics.
posted by homunculus at 3:39 PM on October 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by Artw at 4:24 PM on September 18, 2017 [3 favorites]