It is vulgar to use an inquest to display one's wardrobe
September 26, 2017 11:14 PM Subscribe
Lady Lucan has died, 40 years later than her husband intended. Sandra Rivett wasn't so lucky.
Thread title is a paraphrased quote from her website:
At Mrs. Rivett's inquest I wore a hat because of my rank as a Peeress of the Realm and I wore the same outfit on each of the four days it lasted as it is vulgar to use a tragic and grave matter such as an inquest as an opportunity to display one's wardrobe.
Thread title is a paraphrased quote from her website:
At Mrs. Rivett's inquest I wore a hat because of my rank as a Peeress of the Realm and I wore the same outfit on each of the four days it lasted as it is vulgar to use a tragic and grave matter such as an inquest as an opportunity to display one's wardrobe.
I guess I was vaguely aware of Lord Lucan as a famous vanished guy, and I missed the part with the domestic violence, attempted murder, and actual murder. I'm thinking that seems less like a fun mystery/scandal to modern sensibilities than it would have to people in the '70s?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:04 AM on September 27, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:04 AM on September 27, 2017 [11 favorites]
I have Black Box Recorder to thank for reminding me of this sad, strangely gothic story years ago. It never really entered the zeitgeist here in the U.S, that I can remember, though I do recall being passingly familiar with it when I heard the song, enough to dredge the basic story out of faded memories before looking up the details. Still, the song was the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the news of Lady Lucan's death.
Mistaken identities in the dark, bludgeoning, stumbling into a local pub, being possibly fed to tigers; if it were a novel I'd roll my eyes.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 12:06 AM on September 27, 2017 [9 favorites]
Mistaken identities in the dark, bludgeoning, stumbling into a local pub, being possibly fed to tigers; if it were a novel I'd roll my eyes.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 12:06 AM on September 27, 2017 [9 favorites]
From the Telegraph article (third link):
posted by tully_monster at 12:10 AM on September 27, 2017 [25 favorites]
Wilson claimed that Lucan had been planning to kill his wife for quite some time, and had mentioned his murderous intentions to his acquaintance Lady Osborne, mother of Lucan's friend Lord Aspinall, and grandmother of Evening Standard editor George Osborne. “She told me that Lucky had confided to her that he intended to kill Veronica," said Wilson.Ugh, what horrible people.
“She told me she said to him: ‘Well John, if you intend to do that, make sure you hide her body well!’ Lady O had a loud cackling laugh and it was obvious she did not like Veronica – not many people did.”
posted by tully_monster at 12:10 AM on September 27, 2017 [25 favorites]
Oh my god, I had no idea about any of this, though I'd heard the name Lord Lucan before. What an awful situation. Horrible man.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:17 AM on September 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:17 AM on September 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
being possibly fed to tigers;
Talk about not being smart from the very beginning - must be one of the worst ways of disposing of a dead body. I mean what do you do if the tiger isn't feeling hungry and saves some for later - go in and take it back out?
I hope even a bunch of titled gambling buddies weren't dumb enough to try it out.
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:32 AM on September 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
Talk about not being smart from the very beginning - must be one of the worst ways of disposing of a dead body. I mean what do you do if the tiger isn't feeling hungry and saves some for later - go in and take it back out?
I hope even a bunch of titled gambling buddies weren't dumb enough to try it out.
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:32 AM on September 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
Lucan was a part of the Mayfair Set, described there in Adam Curtis' series. Including such lovely people as Col. David Stirling, Tiny Rowland, Jimmy Goldsmith, Jim Slater and John Aspinall, pioneers of modern kleptocracy. Fascinating programmes. Watch in awe, and then you'll probably need a long shower.
posted by Grangousier at 12:51 AM on September 27, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 12:51 AM on September 27, 2017 [10 favorites]
The interviews with her in the documentary earlier this year were fascinating. She was direct and no-nonsense and funny, and at the same time very detached and distant, when talking about herself and her past as well as her children. She said she hadn't been a good mother to her children, laughed about various nannies telling her off for never looking after them, then talked quite casually about her husband having her committed to psychiatric wards and treated and drugged against her will as she fought to keep the children. She came across as a damaged person who'd married another damaged person, who then proceeded to damage her more and more terribly even before he nearly killed her. And she also seemed quite indignant that the public was still more interested in her and her husband than in Sandra Rivett, who she felt deserved to be remembered more.
I hope she's at peace now. She didn't seem to have had much of it in her life.
posted by Catseye at 1:04 AM on September 27, 2017 [32 favorites]
I hope she's at peace now. She didn't seem to have had much of it in her life.
posted by Catseye at 1:04 AM on September 27, 2017 [32 favorites]
The last sentence of the Guardian article suggests all I want and don't want to know about these people.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:13 AM on September 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by From Bklyn at 1:13 AM on September 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Perfidious Albion.
posted by ouke at 1:48 AM on September 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by ouke at 1:48 AM on September 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
I guess I was vaguely aware of Lord Lucan as a famous vanished guy, and I missed the part with the domestic violence, attempted murder, and actual murder. I'm thinking that seems less like a fun mystery/scandal to modern sensibilities than it would have to people in the '70s?
The underhand actions of the nobility adds quite a lot of frisson to a story in the UK, and this one had the whole mystery element/manhunt element too, which kept it cycling through the press at various times over subsequent years.
Would it be so different today? Imagine some celeb disappeared now, leaving bodies in his wake and wasn't found. How long would that run for?
posted by biffa at 1:50 AM on September 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
The underhand actions of the nobility adds quite a lot of frisson to a story in the UK, and this one had the whole mystery element/manhunt element too, which kept it cycling through the press at various times over subsequent years.
Would it be so different today? Imagine some celeb disappeared now, leaving bodies in his wake and wasn't found. How long would that run for?
posted by biffa at 1:50 AM on September 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing it would be significantly more difficult for a 2017 celebrity to actually disappear compared to 1970s nobility, what with the ubiquitous cameras (security and phone variety) 24 hour news cycle, twitters and so on.
posted by Dr Dracator at 4:30 AM on September 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Dr Dracator at 4:30 AM on September 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
Imagine some celeb disappeared now, leaving bodies in his wake and wasn't found. How long would that run for?
I imagine the Kardashians could get another decade out of it, at least.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:40 AM on September 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
I imagine the Kardashians could get another decade out of it, at least.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:40 AM on September 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
Wow, it's really too bad that Freddy Mercury never got the chance to play him in a movie.
posted by yhbc at 5:44 AM on September 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by yhbc at 5:44 AM on September 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
What a hideous tale. It sounds like Lady Lucan is the most sympathetic character in a cast of entirely horrible characters.
posted by 41swans at 6:11 AM on September 27, 2017
posted by 41swans at 6:11 AM on September 27, 2017
What a hideous tale. It sounds like Lady Lucan is the most sympathetic character in a cast of entirely horrible characters.Sandra Rivett would probably be sympathetic if she received any attention at all. But I've seen enough Law & Order episodes to know that the murdered nanny is just a plot device in this kind of narrative, not an actual character.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:19 AM on September 27, 2017 [22 favorites]
When I was making this post, I searched for some kind of memorial to Sandra Rivett that I could link to. It doesn't seem there is one.
posted by Perodicticus potto at 6:25 AM on September 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Perodicticus potto at 6:25 AM on September 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
Lord Lucan on Spitting Image... he'd often be used as a background character in sketches.
Lots of rumours at the time and since that his disappearance was helped and maintained by members of the establishment.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:54 AM on September 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Lots of rumours at the time and since that his disappearance was helped and maintained by members of the establishment.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:54 AM on September 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Lucan title has a lot of resonance in Ireland.
The first Earl of Lucan was Patrick Sarsfield, on of the great lost leaders of Irish history, who fought in the Williamite wars. He was actually born in Lucan, which is now part of suburban Dublin but was then rich farmland along the Liffey valley. The title died out with his son's death, and was resurrected for his grand-nephew Charles Bingham. The third Earl, Charles Bingham, was one of the army officers responsible for the infamous Charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimean War, and known in Ireland as a harsh landlord during the Famine.
What the missing Lord Lucan was mostly known for In Ireland, however, was as the owner of the ground rent of a large area of County Mayo around Castlebar. Since the whole business of ground rent was the subject of ongoing agitation, most of the locals took his disappearance as an opportunity to withhold all payment, and the effects can still be seen now, as can be seen in this Irish Independent article.
posted by Azara at 6:54 AM on September 27, 2017 [13 favorites]
The first Earl of Lucan was Patrick Sarsfield, on of the great lost leaders of Irish history, who fought in the Williamite wars. He was actually born in Lucan, which is now part of suburban Dublin but was then rich farmland along the Liffey valley. The title died out with his son's death, and was resurrected for his grand-nephew Charles Bingham. The third Earl, Charles Bingham, was one of the army officers responsible for the infamous Charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimean War, and known in Ireland as a harsh landlord during the Famine.
What the missing Lord Lucan was mostly known for In Ireland, however, was as the owner of the ground rent of a large area of County Mayo around Castlebar. Since the whole business of ground rent was the subject of ongoing agitation, most of the locals took his disappearance as an opportunity to withhold all payment, and the effects can still be seen now, as can be seen in this Irish Independent article.
posted by Azara at 6:54 AM on September 27, 2017 [13 favorites]
His friends allegedly told him that, without proof of death, probate could not be granted on his estate for at least seven years – by which time his children would be old enough to look after their own affairs... Marcq said a pistol was placed in front of Lucan, who picked it up, went into the next room, and shot himself. The body was then allegedly fed to a tiger named Zorra.
As I am currently getting my will and various other supporting documentation in order to take into account the Littlest Naberius, this aspect of the story has particular interest for me. It seems I could avoid a great deal of legal complexity in this way, keeping my estate out of probate until the Littlest Naberius is of age to handle her own affairs and thus getting around various trust requirements, etc. etc. Plus, since she's already clearly on a path toward a life of, shall we say, reckless adventurism, I think, rather than remember me in my eventual decline and senescence, she would quite appreciate the idea that her beloved father simply vanished one day and was allegedly eaten by a tiger. Certainly none - or at least very few I should think - of the other children will be able to say that.
Now I just need to befriend someone of a certain social standing and turn of mind. The sort who maintains a private zoo full of tigers. Please pm with details; photos of the tiger would be appreciated.
posted by Naberius at 6:55 AM on September 27, 2017 [11 favorites]
As I am currently getting my will and various other supporting documentation in order to take into account the Littlest Naberius, this aspect of the story has particular interest for me. It seems I could avoid a great deal of legal complexity in this way, keeping my estate out of probate until the Littlest Naberius is of age to handle her own affairs and thus getting around various trust requirements, etc. etc. Plus, since she's already clearly on a path toward a life of, shall we say, reckless adventurism, I think, rather than remember me in my eventual decline and senescence, she would quite appreciate the idea that her beloved father simply vanished one day and was allegedly eaten by a tiger. Certainly none - or at least very few I should think - of the other children will be able to say that.
Now I just need to befriend someone of a certain social standing and turn of mind. The sort who maintains a private zoo full of tigers. Please pm with details; photos of the tiger would be appreciated.
posted by Naberius at 6:55 AM on September 27, 2017 [11 favorites]
It never really entered the zeitgeist here in the U.S.
It was ubiquitous here in the UK, where scarcely a year went by without a new 'sighting' of Lord Lucan somewhere around the globe. The story was shamelessly kept alive by tabloid hacks like the late Garth Gibbs, who realised they could get a free, expenses-paid holiday on the pretence that Lucan had been spotted sunbathing in Bali or snorkelling in Barbados:
It was ubiquitous here in the UK, where scarcely a year went by without a new 'sighting' of Lord Lucan somewhere around the globe. The story was shamelessly kept alive by tabloid hacks like the late Garth Gibbs, who realised they could get a free, expenses-paid holiday on the pretence that Lucan had been spotted sunbathing in Bali or snorkelling in Barbados:
Reflecting on the matter after 30 years of fruitless journalistic endeavour, he explained that he had adopted as his motto an observation made by the canny Sunday Express editor John Junor: “Laddie, you don’t ever want to shoot the fox. Once the fox is dead there is nothing left to chase.”posted by verstegan at 7:00 AM on September 27, 2017 [57 favorites]
Gibbs wrote: “With that in mind I regard not finding Lord Lucan as my most spectacular success in journalism. Of course, many of my colleagues have also been fairly successful in not finding Lord Lucan. But I have successfully not found him in more exotic spots than anybody else.”
Sandra Rivett would probably be sympathetic if she received any attention at all.
There is a bit in Lady Lucan's website. It's nice that she acknowledged Rivett's child, too.
My children, all in their thirties seem quite unaware that there is a young man about their ages who has not had a quarter of the advantages they have enjoyed and who now has to read how well the children of the man who murdered his mother have done. It's an outrage!
posted by Ruki at 7:14 AM on September 27, 2017 [16 favorites]
There is a bit in Lady Lucan's website. It's nice that she acknowledged Rivett's child, too.
My children, all in their thirties seem quite unaware that there is a young man about their ages who has not had a quarter of the advantages they have enjoyed and who now has to read how well the children of the man who murdered his mother have done. It's an outrage!
posted by Ruki at 7:14 AM on September 27, 2017 [16 favorites]
That's really sad that her children turned against her and seem to be hoping their father is alive despite him brutally murdering the nanny.
posted by corb at 7:26 AM on September 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:26 AM on September 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yeah, they seem to be true children of their father, spoiled and self-centered.
posted by tavella at 7:37 AM on September 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tavella at 7:37 AM on September 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
It never really entered the zeitgeist here in the U.S.
No, we had to settle for Claus von Bülow, Jean Harris, and Roxanne Pulitzer. But reading Lucan's wikipedia page just now, I remembered hearing about it. I'm sure I encountered the story as a kid fascinated by everything British. I did not know that Dominic Elwes, father of Cary Elwes, was part of that set and one of the people alleged to have had an appointment with Lucan the day of the murder.
Here's a 2005 Guardian story called "Desperate Lucan dreamt of fascist coup : Murder mystery earl bought Mein Kampf and listened to Hitler's speeches" complete with the poignant line
who realised they could get a free, expenses-paid holiday on the pretence that Lucan had been spotted sunbathing in Bali or snorkelling in Barbados
Nice work if you can get it.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:49 AM on September 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
No, we had to settle for Claus von Bülow, Jean Harris, and Roxanne Pulitzer. But reading Lucan's wikipedia page just now, I remembered hearing about it. I'm sure I encountered the story as a kid fascinated by everything British. I did not know that Dominic Elwes, father of Cary Elwes, was part of that set and one of the people alleged to have had an appointment with Lucan the day of the murder.
Here's a 2005 Guardian story called "Desperate Lucan dreamt of fascist coup : Murder mystery earl bought Mein Kampf and listened to Hitler's speeches" complete with the poignant line
"It may seem difficult to believe now, nearly eight years into the most secure Labour government in British history, but across the country pockets of the traditional ruling class were preparing for military action.
who realised they could get a free, expenses-paid holiday on the pretence that Lucan had been spotted sunbathing in Bali or snorkelling in Barbados
Nice work if you can get it.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:49 AM on September 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
In re the kids: It's got to be terribly hard - even if you're the child of a peer - to admit that your father is a murderer and an abuser and attempted to murder your mother. It would be very easy to imagine that children could not accept this when young and have built up psychic structures around not accepting it over time.
I always figure that when unprecedentedly bad and bizarre things happen to people, a certain amount of trauma-delusion is possible and doesn't necessarily indicate that you're a terrible person. It's a tragic consequence of actions that Lucan chose to take.
posted by Frowner at 8:27 AM on September 27, 2017 [9 favorites]
I always figure that when unprecedentedly bad and bizarre things happen to people, a certain amount of trauma-delusion is possible and doesn't necessarily indicate that you're a terrible person. It's a tragic consequence of actions that Lucan chose to take.
posted by Frowner at 8:27 AM on September 27, 2017 [9 favorites]
It sounds like Lady Lucan is the most sympathetic character in a cast of entirely horrible characters.
It doesn't seem like her children quite agree, and they are in a better position to know her than we are. Everybody else in this thread seems inclined to think that her children are delusional (really?) or spoiled, but I think it's perfectly possible that "Lord Lucan murdered the nanny" and "Lady Lucan was not a nice person and was not a good mother" are both true statements. It's a lot easier to say all the right nice things on a website than it is to get disinvited from your daughter's wedding.
When police visited Howletts, Aspinall is said to have responded: "My tigers are only fed the choicest cuts – do you really think they’re going to eat stringy old Lucky?"
Based on everything I know about cats, this is a 100% bulletproof alibi. Especially if they know they're supposed to eat the body, there's no way they're going to eat it.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:29 AM on September 27, 2017 [19 favorites]
It doesn't seem like her children quite agree, and they are in a better position to know her than we are. Everybody else in this thread seems inclined to think that her children are delusional (really?) or spoiled, but I think it's perfectly possible that "Lord Lucan murdered the nanny" and "Lady Lucan was not a nice person and was not a good mother" are both true statements. It's a lot easier to say all the right nice things on a website than it is to get disinvited from your daughter's wedding.
When police visited Howletts, Aspinall is said to have responded: "My tigers are only fed the choicest cuts – do you really think they’re going to eat stringy old Lucky?"
Based on everything I know about cats, this is a 100% bulletproof alibi. Especially if they know they're supposed to eat the body, there's no way they're going to eat it.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:29 AM on September 27, 2017 [19 favorites]
it's perfectly possible that "Lord Lucan murdered the nanny" and "Lady Lucan was not a nice person and was not a good mother" are both true statements.
That's the missing piece here for me. The childrens' reaction seems odd given the facts as presented, and woven into the (admittedly kind of silly) tiger story is the implication that he did it all to protect his children from their mother and, upon realizing he'd screwed it all up by killing the nanny instead, killed himself with the specific goal of gumming up the works to protect them from beyond the grave for as long as he could.
So what is it that he was supposedly protecting them from? What was so terrible about her that this all seemed like a good idea? Granted, you don't like to speak ill of someone in their own obituary.* But that seems an obvious gaping hole in the story as presented here.
*Unless they're Nixon, and you're Hunter S. Thompson, obviously.
posted by Naberius at 10:11 AM on September 27, 2017
That's the missing piece here for me. The childrens' reaction seems odd given the facts as presented, and woven into the (admittedly kind of silly) tiger story is the implication that he did it all to protect his children from their mother and, upon realizing he'd screwed it all up by killing the nanny instead, killed himself with the specific goal of gumming up the works to protect them from beyond the grave for as long as he could.
So what is it that he was supposedly protecting them from? What was so terrible about her that this all seemed like a good idea? Granted, you don't like to speak ill of someone in their own obituary.* But that seems an obvious gaping hole in the story as presented here.
*Unless they're Nixon, and you're Hunter S. Thompson, obviously.
posted by Naberius at 10:11 AM on September 27, 2017
I've read that she suffered from severe postnatal depression, and possibly other mental health issues. That may help explain her husband's and children's attitudes.
posted by Perodicticus potto at 10:35 AM on September 27, 2017
posted by Perodicticus potto at 10:35 AM on September 27, 2017
Awful group of people. But I must admit, I still really want to know what happened.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:52 AM on September 27, 2017
posted by Chrysostom at 10:52 AM on September 27, 2017
I think it's perfectly possible that "Lord Lucan murdered the nanny" and "Lady Lucan was not a nice person and was not a good mother" are both true statements.Sure. But these people did nothing to invite my judgement of their family dynamics other than be victims of a terrible crime, and I'm going to stick with "it's none of our damn business."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:56 AM on September 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
The first link is an epic read, but I think my favorite quote has to be:
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:23 AM on September 27, 2017 [13 favorites]
"I have publicly stated since 1987 that my late husband is not alive..."Re: the children. Growing up in a violent, abusive household can Fuck. You. Up. in so many different ways that aren't always obvious to outside observers. For instance, it took me a long time to stop blaming my mother for not doing more to protect us from my father. It took me a long time to process that she couldn't see how badly he was gaslighting her because that's how gaslighting works. And I don't even know how much more complicated it gets if you put nannies and boarding schools in to the equation. So the question of why Lady Lucan and her children were estranged remains a mystery to me. I am touched that she took a moment to remember Rivet's son.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:23 AM on September 27, 2017 [13 favorites]
Oh, and yeah, I had heard "Lord Lucan" as a punchline in jokes on British TV, but never knew exactly what it meant.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:25 AM on September 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:25 AM on September 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
Gaslight (1940) the film
Gaslight (1944) the official trailer
posted by marycatherine at 12:38 PM on September 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
Gaslight (1944) the official trailer
posted by marycatherine at 12:38 PM on September 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also, this all happened in 1974. Not to be all "the present is wonderful", but in a socially conservative environment (like the British aristocracy), 1974 was probably not all that great a time to be married to an abusive gambler.
I feel like some comments are slipping over into "Lady Lucan must have been horrible in some secret way for her husband to want to murder her, because it was probably to protect the kids", and that seems like an assumption that we would hopefully not make if this were a contemporary case. You don't need to be horrible for your husband to want to murder you, or for the family narrative to be "it's all mom's fault". If I had a dollar for every family narrative I'd encountered where the sick system was blamed on bad old mom, I'd have....well, I could buy my mother something nice, anyway.
posted by Frowner at 12:54 PM on September 27, 2017 [32 favorites]
I feel like some comments are slipping over into "Lady Lucan must have been horrible in some secret way for her husband to want to murder her, because it was probably to protect the kids", and that seems like an assumption that we would hopefully not make if this were a contemporary case. You don't need to be horrible for your husband to want to murder you, or for the family narrative to be "it's all mom's fault". If I had a dollar for every family narrative I'd encountered where the sick system was blamed on bad old mom, I'd have....well, I could buy my mother something nice, anyway.
posted by Frowner at 12:54 PM on September 27, 2017 [32 favorites]
Frowner brings up a very good point I've been thinking about ever since I read the original post.Without even seeking them out, I have read way too many MRA-style misogynists’ screeds that sound like they could have been written by Lord Lucan. These folks have been around long before the Internet.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:34 PM on September 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:34 PM on September 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
What Frowner described reminds me of the article that was posted about Sylvia Plath's daughter not too long ago. Even though Ted Hughes' abuse of both of his female partners is well known, his daughter seemed to have only fond, good memories of him. She mentioned that he never spoke ill of her mother and otherwise made no allusion to the abuse. I wonder if, when you know to expect nothing of one parent, you hold the other parent responsible for everything they didn't prevent.
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:45 PM on September 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:45 PM on September 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I think it's also worth noting that octobersurprise's link pointed out that he was a secret Nazi who loved Hitler's speeches and wanted members of other races in England "flogged". He could have wanted to "protect" the children from any number of bullshit horrible things because he was a garbage human being.
posted by corb at 2:55 PM on September 27, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:55 PM on September 27, 2017 [9 favorites]
For those wanting to delve further into the Lucan marriage I can recommend a book called A Different Class of Murder: The Story of Lord Lucan by Laura Thompson. I still find it a little too inclined to be sympathetic to Lucan - and she argues that Lucan hired a hitman to do the murder rather than sully his own hands with his wife's blood - but it tries to be even-handed and gives some great insight into the Lucan 'set' and has interviews with people from both sides.
It sounds as if Lady Lucan suffered from mental illness much of her life, and this could make her very difficult to live with. She had some stints in mental institutions, both before and after the murder, including one stay of over seven months. There was a high turnover of nannies in the house before Sandra Rivett (and Sandra had only been working there ten weeks when she was murdered). At the time of the murder she was so depressed that she spent most of her time in her bedroom with the shades drawn.
Lady Lucan lost custody of the children in 1984, to her sister. She clearly felt betrayed by everyone she had known, including her sister and her children, and that almost certainly impacted on her mental health as well. The book quotes her, in a 1998 interview, as saying the children "had to be punished for what they'd done"; a year later she said "If I was a bad mother, too bad. I am so disgusted with them that I feel ashamed to be their mother."
None of which is to excuse Lucan, who sounded as if he neither understood nor sympathised with her illness, and seems to have not made an effort to make the marriage work. Many of those in his "set" also seem to have thought he'd married beneath him, which means that behaviour from Lady Lucan which would probably be excused as eccentricity if she were "one of them" was seen instead as embarrassment for "poor Lucky".
I can see why the children of the marriage are not inclined to think well of their mother; but I think it's more horribly complicated than her being a "bad mother" and it would have been an incredibly difficult and unhappy situation for everyone concerned.
posted by andraste at 5:40 PM on September 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
It sounds as if Lady Lucan suffered from mental illness much of her life, and this could make her very difficult to live with. She had some stints in mental institutions, both before and after the murder, including one stay of over seven months. There was a high turnover of nannies in the house before Sandra Rivett (and Sandra had only been working there ten weeks when she was murdered). At the time of the murder she was so depressed that she spent most of her time in her bedroom with the shades drawn.
Lady Lucan lost custody of the children in 1984, to her sister. She clearly felt betrayed by everyone she had known, including her sister and her children, and that almost certainly impacted on her mental health as well. The book quotes her, in a 1998 interview, as saying the children "had to be punished for what they'd done"; a year later she said "If I was a bad mother, too bad. I am so disgusted with them that I feel ashamed to be their mother."
None of which is to excuse Lucan, who sounded as if he neither understood nor sympathised with her illness, and seems to have not made an effort to make the marriage work. Many of those in his "set" also seem to have thought he'd married beneath him, which means that behaviour from Lady Lucan which would probably be excused as eccentricity if she were "one of them" was seen instead as embarrassment for "poor Lucky".
I can see why the children of the marriage are not inclined to think well of their mother; but I think it's more horribly complicated than her being a "bad mother" and it would have been an incredibly difficult and unhappy situation for everyone concerned.
posted by andraste at 5:40 PM on September 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
Also, there are no mitigating circumstances for proactively trying to murder someone (or hiring a hitman). I mean, no matter how ill Lady Lucan was, or how awful she was to the children, or how absent she was as a mother, none of those things justify thinking "aha, instead of pursuing a separation or a divorce, I will murder her". I mean, "Lady Lucan, victim or villainess" is really not where this should go.
When someone writes an ask about how their partner is depressed, withdrawn and doesn't do their share, no one is all "well, have you considered a hitman"?
posted by Frowner at 5:53 PM on September 27, 2017 [16 favorites]
When someone writes an ask about how their partner is depressed, withdrawn and doesn't do their share, no one is all "well, have you considered a hitman"?
posted by Frowner at 5:53 PM on September 27, 2017 [16 favorites]
Yes, I don't have any sympathy for Lucan or believe he was justified in any way - sorry if I came across that way. It's more trying to have some understanding of why the children have had such an unhappy and fraught relationship with their mother. It sounds as if there was virtually no real support for Lady Lucan from any quarter, and a lot of hostility towards her - and not just from the person who tried to actually murder her.
posted by andraste at 7:17 PM on September 27, 2017
posted by andraste at 7:17 PM on September 27, 2017
Lucan and Rupert Murdoch were peers and socialized together. Many of Murdoch's right wing beliefs are similar to this crackpot group: Aspinell, Stirling (who founded the SAS and was forming a private anti-union army at this time), Goldsmith, Slater. Most of them left the UK in the late 70s under various clouds when their dreams of restoring it's whites-only glory faded, most for places where they could continue to be horrible unabated or decades like South Africa. Murdoch came to the US, unfortunately.
Lucan's kids may not like their mother much but you do wonder who raised them that they turned out the way they did.
Curiously another similar crime occurred to the same group of people in 1970 when kidnappers mistook another women for Rupert Murdoch's wife and kidnapped and murdered her by mistake.
posted by fshgrl at 9:32 PM on September 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
Lucan's kids may not like their mother much but you do wonder who raised them that they turned out the way they did.
Curiously another similar crime occurred to the same group of people in 1970 when kidnappers mistook another women for Rupert Murdoch's wife and kidnapped and murdered her by mistake.
posted by fshgrl at 9:32 PM on September 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
And another of Lucan's former nannies was murdered in the 1980s, by her husband.
posted by andraste at 10:50 PM on September 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by andraste at 10:50 PM on September 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've learned some new things from this thread. Thanks everyone!
I've always found it odd how some of Lucan's defenders insist he didn't kill Sandra Rivett himself, but hired a hitman. How exactly is that better?
posted by Perodicticus potto at 7:15 AM on September 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
I've always found it odd how some of Lucan's defenders insist he didn't kill Sandra Rivett himself, but hired a hitman. How exactly is that better?
posted by Perodicticus potto at 7:15 AM on September 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Ned Donovan on Twitter: “The Telegraph's obituary for Lady Lucan seems to have been written by a vengeful Lord Lucan sitting at a computer in a Namibia internet cafe“
posted by Catseye at 8:19 AM on September 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 8:19 AM on September 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Good god. Mind you, the Telegraph's website recently ran a piece claiming all but three of the world's central banks were controlled by the Rothschild family, so maybe nasty cranks are their main audience these days.
posted by Perodicticus potto at 8:31 AM on September 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Perodicticus potto at 8:31 AM on September 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
"well, have you considered a hitman"
I know this is a sober and serious topic, but that made me lol. My odd sense of humor.
posted by vignettist at 8:37 AM on September 28, 2017
I know this is a sober and serious topic, but that made me lol. My odd sense of humor.
posted by vignettist at 8:37 AM on September 28, 2017
Ack, I really don't mean to sound insensitive to Lady Lucan, my comment above is really about the nature of AskMe. I think her situation (ineffectively treated depression and an unsupportive family) sounds horrible for her, and for her children. I hope she is at peace.
posted by vignettist at 8:40 AM on September 28, 2017
posted by vignettist at 8:40 AM on September 28, 2017
or how absent she was as a mother
it perhaps bears some stressing that a family with a depressed and ill mother who can't or won't care for her children only needs to hire a string of nannies if their father is, likewise, unable or unwilling to care for his children.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:27 PM on September 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
it perhaps bears some stressing that a family with a depressed and ill mother who can't or won't care for her children only needs to hire a string of nannies if their father is, likewise, unable or unwilling to care for his children.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:27 PM on September 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Everything I know about the English upper class comes from children's books, but I think that hiring a nanny may have been an expectation for people of their social class. And actually, that may also get at why Lord Lucan's defenders claim that he hired a hitman rather than committing the crime directly. People like him weren't supposed to get their hands dirty. They hired other people to do the messy stuff.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:40 PM on September 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:40 PM on September 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think that hiring a nanny may have been an expectation for people of their social class.
I know you're right, I just draw a line at making the same excuses for rich men that they make for themselves. unless they pay me well for it and don't murder me.
also I think generations of rich people's children both in England and elsewhere have nursed resentments against their mothers more than their fathers for the defects of a luxurious yet chilly childhood where everyone who loved them had to be paid to do it. which is not fair of them, no matter how customary.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:12 PM on September 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I know you're right, I just draw a line at making the same excuses for rich men that they make for themselves. unless they pay me well for it and don't murder me.
also I think generations of rich people's children both in England and elsewhere have nursed resentments against their mothers more than their fathers for the defects of a luxurious yet chilly childhood where everyone who loved them had to be paid to do it. which is not fair of them, no matter how customary.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:12 PM on September 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
In Cold Blood, the Economist obituary. It is remarkably well written and terribly sad.
When her younger daughter married she watched through the railings in the rain, on her way to buy a cardigan from Marks & Spencer. All her relationships had been cold.posted by Nelson at 11:06 AM on October 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
« Older Let Mrs Betty Bowers spend 3m42s talking to you... | The Fall and Rise of Zealandia Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:54 PM on September 26, 2017 [1 favorite]