Classically, Resurrection is a 7th level cleric spell
October 24, 2017 8:07 PM Subscribe
The uncanny resurrection of Dungeons & Dragons. [SLNewYorker]
Also, bless you New Yorker, bless you and your sacrosanct style guide that demands periods after each "D" in D.&D., every time, any time.
posted by JHarris at 8:34 PM on October 24, 2017 [48 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 8:34 PM on October 24, 2017 [48 favorites]
And yet the emphasis, even these days, is not on such forms but on moving beyond them. A decade ago, when developers attempted to bring Dungeons & Dragons into the twenty-first century by stuffing it with rules so that it might better resemble a video game, the glue of the game, the narrative aspect that drew so many in, melted away. Players hacked monsters to death, picked up treasure, collected experience points, and coolly moved through preset challenges.
Edition war rage.... building...
posted by Sebmojo at 8:35 PM on October 24, 2017 [14 favorites]
Edition war rage.... building...
posted by Sebmojo at 8:35 PM on October 24, 2017 [14 favorites]
and a Brazilian study from 2013 showed that role-playing classes were an extremely effective way to teach cellular biology to medical undergraduates.Er... go on.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:38 PM on October 24, 2017 [18 favorites]
But playing a bard is still the masochist's dream.
posted by triage_lazarus at 8:40 PM on October 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by triage_lazarus at 8:40 PM on October 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
This article seems to throw out a lot of the history of D&D to fit a narrative about it fading away and being revived for New Yorker reader-relevant reasons, which you know... isn't remotely close to what actually happened?
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:41 PM on October 24, 2017 [30 favorites]
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:41 PM on October 24, 2017 [30 favorites]
But the social obstacles to pen and paper role playing games remain. It's difficult to find people who can commit to a regular play session, which makes it extra difficult to delve any deeper than simple one shots, and the fragmenting of the hobby hasn't helped.
If you include Pathfinder, all the various retro clones, plus the various editions of AD&D, there must be at least a dozen different factions loyal to a specific era of D&D rules. To say this intimidates newbies would be an understatement.
posted by Beholder at 8:57 PM on October 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
If you include Pathfinder, all the various retro clones, plus the various editions of AD&D, there must be at least a dozen different factions loyal to a specific era of D&D rules. To say this intimidates newbies would be an understatement.
posted by Beholder at 8:57 PM on October 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Soon, Freeman had to hire half a dozen paid Dungeon Masters for the kids
....where can I apply? I have experience!
This article seems to throw out a lot of the history of D&D to fit a narrative about it fading away and being revived for New Yorker reader-relevant reasons, which you know... isn't remotely close to what actually happened?
It does seem like they threw out the huge popularity of 3rd edition just so they could warp "4th edition sucked and no one liked it" into a broader narrative about D&D's place in the zeitgeist. That said, I do feel like there's something to the idea in the article that our concept of what constitutes "antisocial behavior" has shifted so far that playing D&D in person around a table with a small group of friends is no longer regarded as antisocial (because there are only three or four of you instead of, say, a whole sports team or big loud party's worth of people) but actually considered quite social (compared to dicking around on your smartphone at home and binging a Netflix show).
posted by mstokes650 at 9:08 PM on October 24, 2017 [22 favorites]
....where can I apply? I have experience!
This article seems to throw out a lot of the history of D&D to fit a narrative about it fading away and being revived for New Yorker reader-relevant reasons, which you know... isn't remotely close to what actually happened?
It does seem like they threw out the huge popularity of 3rd edition just so they could warp "4th edition sucked and no one liked it" into a broader narrative about D&D's place in the zeitgeist. That said, I do feel like there's something to the idea in the article that our concept of what constitutes "antisocial behavior" has shifted so far that playing D&D in person around a table with a small group of friends is no longer regarded as antisocial (because there are only three or four of you instead of, say, a whole sports team or big loud party's worth of people) but actually considered quite social (compared to dicking around on your smartphone at home and binging a Netflix show).
posted by mstokes650 at 9:08 PM on October 24, 2017 [22 favorites]
“I’ve had parents get very upset with me,” said Freeman, who recently opened another store near Columbia University. “Because they sign their kids up for role playing and my staff is trying to expand their horizons beyond D. & D. and into other independent games. But the parents are, like, ‘If they can’t play D. & D., then I don’t know if this is going to work.’ ”Wow, parents ruin everything.
posted by kenko at 9:09 PM on October 24, 2017 [21 favorites]
If you include Pathfinder
Which the article didn't even mention, I notice.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:16 PM on October 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
Which the article didn't even mention, I notice.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:16 PM on October 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
But the social obstacles to pen and paper role playing games remain. It's difficult to find people who can commit to a regular play session, which makes it extra difficult to delve any deeper than simple one shots, and the fragmenting of the hobby hasn't helped.
I started playing online last year because I wanted to play again but had little prospect of a group. It's been 10 months with 3 different games now. One game is every couple of weeks, the other every week and the same time and the other one more flexible but we end up 2 to 3 times a month.
Ideally I'd like in person games but find the online is just easier to have regular games because people don't have to go anywhere and it's easier to fit them in. One of my games is Sunday night 9-11pm which would be too late to go out but fine to play in my PJs. Heck some weeks I'm in bed with a laptop. Best bedtime story time ever.
posted by Jalliah at 9:16 PM on October 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
I started playing online last year because I wanted to play again but had little prospect of a group. It's been 10 months with 3 different games now. One game is every couple of weeks, the other every week and the same time and the other one more flexible but we end up 2 to 3 times a month.
Ideally I'd like in person games but find the online is just easier to have regular games because people don't have to go anywhere and it's easier to fit them in. One of my games is Sunday night 9-11pm which would be too late to go out but fine to play in my PJs. Heck some weeks I'm in bed with a laptop. Best bedtime story time ever.
posted by Jalliah at 9:16 PM on October 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Surely it is more compelling to note that the 4th Edition of D&D, the tabletop game, being designed to "better resemble a video game" is more accurately framed as "better resemble a genre of video game, the MMORPG, which owes its entire existence to D&D"?
The opening of the article suggests a focus I'd like to see the New Yorker do a long-form take on, about the anomie of MMORPGs that began as faithful clones of pen-and-paper RPGs but morphed over time into highly refined slot machines masquerading as a video games. Compare bewildering discussions about THAC0 from the 80s, which at least served a narrative, to something like loot drop tables for Diablo 3, which ARE the game and serve to create an addiction large corporations hope to monetize *cough*loot boxes*cough*. Which is making a subset of gamers as miserable as those gambling addicts who wear diapers at the casino, possibly contributing to terrifying Gamergate stuff. If they are lucky, gamers find a way to tabletop gaming... with its potential for social rewards and a focus on narrative instead of a play dynamic intrinsically bound to profit motive that has the same effect on the brain as crack cocaine.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:29 PM on October 24, 2017 [22 favorites]
The opening of the article suggests a focus I'd like to see the New Yorker do a long-form take on, about the anomie of MMORPGs that began as faithful clones of pen-and-paper RPGs but morphed over time into highly refined slot machines masquerading as a video games. Compare bewildering discussions about THAC0 from the 80s, which at least served a narrative, to something like loot drop tables for Diablo 3, which ARE the game and serve to create an addiction large corporations hope to monetize *cough*loot boxes*cough*. Which is making a subset of gamers as miserable as those gambling addicts who wear diapers at the casino, possibly contributing to terrifying Gamergate stuff. If they are lucky, gamers find a way to tabletop gaming... with its potential for social rewards and a focus on narrative instead of a play dynamic intrinsically bound to profit motive that has the same effect on the brain as crack cocaine.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:29 PM on October 24, 2017 [22 favorites]
Cosigning lefty lucky cat, article had a hefty and apocryphal jump cut from Mazes and Monsters to 2014? That is not how I remember it.
posted by Horkus at 9:37 PM on October 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Horkus at 9:37 PM on October 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
I was ready to scoff at the premise that D&D has undergone a resurrection (as opposed to "I, of the New Yorker, only just became aware of it!"), but I'm somewhat surprised to see that the Player's Guide of the most recent edition is in the top 100 books currently being sold by Amazon. So, maybe people are playing after all?
posted by belarius at 9:40 PM on October 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by belarius at 9:40 PM on October 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
I had a really wonderful time playing 4E for about three years and I'm always a little confused by the people who hate it so much. We didn't have much trouble being weird and having fun and enjoying ourselves.
posted by protocoach at 9:43 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by protocoach at 9:43 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
To say this intimidates newbies would be an understatement.
posted by Beholder at 8:57 PM on October 24 [3 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
So what you're saying here as they they are frozen, as it were, in the eye of the Beholder?
...
... beyond D. & D. and ...
... play D. & D., then ...
JHarris, the style appears to be "D-period-space-ampersand-space-D-period", which is followed by an optional space applicable to a trailing word but not a punctuation mark. Additionally, surely the non-period demarcated usages of D&D and AD&D are trademarked proper titles. I am now curious, are the usages M. L. B. and N. F. L. or C. I. A. in currency over there as well? I can't say I recall one way or the other! G. O. P., C. P. U. S. A., N. Y. C. P. D. - it really seems curiously antiquated.
posted by mwhybark at 9:49 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 8:57 PM on October 24 [3 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
So what you're saying here as they they are frozen, as it were, in the eye of the Beholder?
...
... beyond D. & D. and ...
... play D. & D., then ...
JHarris, the style appears to be "D-period-space-ampersand-space-D-period", which is followed by an optional space applicable to a trailing word but not a punctuation mark. Additionally, surely the non-period demarcated usages of D&D and AD&D are trademarked proper titles. I am now curious, are the usages M. L. B. and N. F. L. or C. I. A. in currency over there as well? I can't say I recall one way or the other! G. O. P., C. P. U. S. A., N. Y. C. P. D. - it really seems curiously antiquated.
posted by mwhybark at 9:49 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
Oh, I agree that it's now more popular than ever. I just don't think it ever went away.
I could be wrong though, it'd be interesting to see 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ed book sales over time.
posted by Horkus at 9:56 PM on October 24, 2017
I could be wrong though, it'd be interesting to see 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ed book sales over time.
posted by Horkus at 9:56 PM on October 24, 2017
Cosigning lefty lucky cat, article had a hefty and apocryphal jump cut from Mazes and Monsters to 2014? That is not how I remember it.
Me neither. I have never once, in my life, wanted for players. I ran Gamma World at the Y in middle school, (the only time I ever encountered a Satanic Panic response - one of the employees there was an idiot), I roped in jocks in high school one time. I put out a call the year I moved to St. Louis and had 13 people show up to my first session, so many that I had to scramble to give everyone a turn.
D&D's been... not cool, but certainly accepted for as long as I can remember. IMO, it's only niche because running a game is a lot of work that most people don't care to do, and not everyone can accomplish well even if they try. It's... artisanal storytelling, and was never going to have the same market share as stuff that can just be mass produced the way video games are.
I had a really wonderful time playing 4E for about three years and I'm always a little confused by the people who hate it so much.
That's complicated, but the short answer for me was 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.' D&D 3.x already did what I wanted in a D&D game, and I didn't see the percentage in learning a new system for the same stuff. (I did often switch systems, but more to get away from D&D tropes rather than do them better.)
posted by mordax at 9:57 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
Me neither. I have never once, in my life, wanted for players. I ran Gamma World at the Y in middle school, (the only time I ever encountered a Satanic Panic response - one of the employees there was an idiot), I roped in jocks in high school one time. I put out a call the year I moved to St. Louis and had 13 people show up to my first session, so many that I had to scramble to give everyone a turn.
D&D's been... not cool, but certainly accepted for as long as I can remember. IMO, it's only niche because running a game is a lot of work that most people don't care to do, and not everyone can accomplish well even if they try. It's... artisanal storytelling, and was never going to have the same market share as stuff that can just be mass produced the way video games are.
I had a really wonderful time playing 4E for about three years and I'm always a little confused by the people who hate it so much.
That's complicated, but the short answer for me was 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.' D&D 3.x already did what I wanted in a D&D game, and I didn't see the percentage in learning a new system for the same stuff. (I did often switch systems, but more to get away from D&D tropes rather than do them better.)
posted by mordax at 9:57 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
Ctrl-f “adventure zone” No matches
Ctrl-f “mcelroy” No matches
Is it really just confirmation bias on my part that the explosion of Let’s Play podcasts, namely TAZ, coincides with this growth? Or is it chicken-and-egg? I know Griffin has mentioned 5E in particular as spurring him to take up DMing as interactive storytelling.
posted by supercres at 10:14 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ctrl-f “mcelroy” No matches
Is it really just confirmation bias on my part that the explosion of Let’s Play podcasts, namely TAZ, coincides with this growth? Or is it chicken-and-egg? I know Griffin has mentioned 5E in particular as spurring him to take up DMing as interactive storytelling.
posted by supercres at 10:14 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Jeeezus. Ignore me and my terrible ctrl-effing skills.
posted by supercres at 10:18 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by supercres at 10:18 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
supercres, I'd say it's a feedback loop... take a little bit of chicken and a little bit of egg and put them together and they reinforce each other for a while and then suddenly take off.
In other news, I'm hungry.
posted by Horkus at 10:19 PM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
In other news, I'm hungry.
posted by Horkus at 10:19 PM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
This article seems to throw out a lot of the history of D&D to fit a narrative about it fading away and being revived for New Yorker reader-relevant reasons, which you know... isn't remotely close to what actually happened?
4e was a masterful feat of creative destruction and full of great design.
posted by Sebmojo at 11:17 PM on October 24, 2017
4e was a masterful feat of creative destruction and full of great design.
posted by Sebmojo at 11:17 PM on October 24, 2017
Its video game antecedents are not mmos though, they are strategy role-playing games like fire emblem.
the one great flaw of 4e is that the shift between an excellent tactics engine and a solid and innovative freeform engine is invariably clunky.
posted by Sebmojo at 11:27 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
the one great flaw of 4e is that the shift between an excellent tactics engine and a solid and innovative freeform engine is invariably clunky.
posted by Sebmojo at 11:27 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
I played RPGs with my friends for years in my youth, but never any D&D. However, we latched onto quite a few Swedish RPGs of the 80s and 90s*, and I must say it's a very odd feeling now that the same guys who made those games, now in their lates 40s and older, now are doing very well on Kickstarter and putting out new content in English. So I have this massive urge to tell someone "So you like Mutant Year Zero? I played Mutant back in the day when it was a Swedish language Gamma World knockoff. You wouldn't have heard of it."
Here are some scans of old-timey Swedish RPG character sheets to give you a taste.
*) I'm Norwegian and the language barrier is trivial
posted by Harald74 at 11:33 PM on October 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
Here are some scans of old-timey Swedish RPG character sheets to give you a taste.
*) I'm Norwegian and the language barrier is trivial
posted by Harald74 at 11:33 PM on October 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
I'm not going to dredge up the old 4E stuff again. I have no doubt that there's great things in it, but it just didn't seem like D&D to me.
posted by JHarris at 11:38 PM on October 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 11:38 PM on October 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
The enthusiastic nostalgia kind of rankles, given the recent revelation of harassment by classic D&D designer Frank Mentzer, who has gotten a bunch of followers to attack his accuser. And the harassment and assault by game designer James Webb- which Paizo did nothing about. Not to mention the fact that serial harasser Zak Smith was involved with 5th edition.
I can appreciate a desire to go back to basics, and I can even uderstand the OSR movement as a reaction to modern indie games. But to a large extent the movement also seems to me to have a lot of elements that see it as a reactionary movement against diversity, against women in gaming, against anything post 1970s.
And yeah, I'm probably being unkind to the people who just like to play D&D. But this is exactly the wrong time for me to see this. article. I see a lot of parallels (and some of the same same names) in the OSR crowd and the rabid puppies. So I can't be all that happy with the return of "Classic" D&D.
posted by happyroach at 11:55 PM on October 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
I can appreciate a desire to go back to basics, and I can even uderstand the OSR movement as a reaction to modern indie games. But to a large extent the movement also seems to me to have a lot of elements that see it as a reactionary movement against diversity, against women in gaming, against anything post 1970s.
And yeah, I'm probably being unkind to the people who just like to play D&D. But this is exactly the wrong time for me to see this. article. I see a lot of parallels (and some of the same same names) in the OSR crowd and the rabid puppies. So I can't be all that happy with the return of "Classic" D&D.
posted by happyroach at 11:55 PM on October 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
triage_lazarus> But playing a bard is still the masochist's dream.
So recently I looked back at the AD&D 1e rules, and being a bard is insane - you have to spend like four levels as a fighter, then three as a thief, and three as a cleric, and THEN, and only then, can you switch to being a level 1 bard.
Now all you have to do is turn to the "bard" part of the 5E PHB, make sure you meet the minimum stat requirements, and say "I'm gonna play a bard!". Which one of the players in my group did; he's been pretty useful in combat and in narrative.
(I started as a thief and put my third level into Sorcerer/Wild Magic, which the Internet suggests may be one of the least mechanically useful combos... but I sure am having a lot of fun with the narrative possibilities.)
posted by egypturnash at 12:02 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
So recently I looked back at the AD&D 1e rules, and being a bard is insane - you have to spend like four levels as a fighter, then three as a thief, and three as a cleric, and THEN, and only then, can you switch to being a level 1 bard.
Now all you have to do is turn to the "bard" part of the 5E PHB, make sure you meet the minimum stat requirements, and say "I'm gonna play a bard!". Which one of the players in my group did; he's been pretty useful in combat and in narrative.
(I started as a thief and put my third level into Sorcerer/Wild Magic, which the Internet suggests may be one of the least mechanically useful combos... but I sure am having a lot of fun with the narrative possibilities.)
posted by egypturnash at 12:02 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can appreciate a desire to go back to basics, and I can even uderstand the OSR movement as a reaction to modern indie games. But to a large extent the movement also seems to me to have a lot of elements that see it as a reactionary movement against diversity, against women in gaming, against anything post 1970s.
Rules bloat is the inevitable outcome of any for profit RPG publisher, and supporters eventually get frustrated and just stick with what they've got. Why spend a lot of money "upgrading" your rules when you don't play that often?
posted by Beholder at 12:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Rules bloat is the inevitable outcome of any for profit RPG publisher, and supporters eventually get frustrated and just stick with what they've got. Why spend a lot of money "upgrading" your rules when you don't play that often?
posted by Beholder at 12:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I played a shit ton of D&D in the early 80s. Now my high school senior is playing. He is in a local game that meets every Sunday, and an online game that also meets once a week. He is DM for the online game, I hear him doing different voices, telling jokes, sometimes playing the flute as part of the story. It makes me so happy.
posted by LarryC at 1:02 AM on October 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by LarryC at 1:02 AM on October 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
From the October 30 issue, digital edition, "Chinatown's Ghost Scam", by Jiayung Fan:
"In 2014, after tracking the scammers intensively, the N.Y.P.D. lodged sealed indictments" ...
No spaces in the abbreviation. The same style is used earlier in the same article for "O.K.". The D&D article does not appear in the magazine. I suppose, perhaps, that the unique etymological heritage of the ampersand must account for this curious treatment of a commonly used and spoken coinage.
posted by mwhybark at 1:22 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
"In 2014, after tracking the scammers intensively, the N.Y.P.D. lodged sealed indictments" ...
No spaces in the abbreviation. The same style is used earlier in the same article for "O.K.". The D&D article does not appear in the magazine. I suppose, perhaps, that the unique etymological heritage of the ampersand must account for this curious treatment of a commonly used and spoken coinage.
posted by mwhybark at 1:22 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
For what it's worth, if you are looking for a dirt cheap entry point into retro D&D, look for the Basic Fantasy Role Playing Game 3rd Edition at Amazon. It's an actual hard copy of the rules (in paper back) for a measly five bucks, prime shipping included. It's your standard retro fare, with a nice cover, and affordable enough to buy multiple copies to hand out to players.
posted by Beholder at 1:24 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 1:24 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
If you include Pathfinder
Which the article didn't even mention, I notice.
Even though it did mention Harmonquest, in which they play Pathfinder and it's a running joke that they can't even say 'D&D.' In the newest episode, the opener called it "the show that proves concerned parents from the 80's wrong, just in time for them to be dead."
(I started as a thief and put my third level into Sorcerer/Wild Magic, which the Internet suggests may be one of the least mechanically useful combos... but I sure am having a lot of fun with the narrative possibilities.)
I just want to applaud your choice. In my experience, minmaxing makes the game less fun for everybody, even the player who's doing it. I mean, you can't really win D&D.
posted by heatvision at 3:16 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Which the article didn't even mention, I notice.
Even though it did mention Harmonquest, in which they play Pathfinder and it's a running joke that they can't even say 'D&D.' In the newest episode, the opener called it "the show that proves concerned parents from the 80's wrong, just in time for them to be dead."
(I started as a thief and put my third level into Sorcerer/Wild Magic, which the Internet suggests may be one of the least mechanically useful combos... but I sure am having a lot of fun with the narrative possibilities.)
I just want to applaud your choice. In my experience, minmaxing makes the game less fun for everybody, even the player who's doing it. I mean, you can't really win D&D.
posted by heatvision at 3:16 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
a Brazilian study from 2013 showed that role-playing classes were an extremely effective way to teach cellular biology to medical undergraduates.
Er... go on.
Learning through role-playing games: an approach for active learning and teaching. The PDF (in English) appears to be open access.
posted by rory at 3:57 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Er... go on.
Learning through role-playing games: an approach for active learning and teaching. The PDF (in English) appears to be open access.
posted by rory at 3:57 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Mutant Year Zero
That's the one Simon Stålenhag did the illustrations for before they made a game from his Tales From The Loop world of 1980s-Sweden-with-anti-gravity-machines, I believe.
posted by acb at 4:20 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
That's the one Simon Stålenhag did the illustrations for before they made a game from his Tales From The Loop world of 1980s-Sweden-with-anti-gravity-machines, I believe.
posted by acb at 4:20 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
The enthusiastic nostalgia kind of rankles, given the recent revelation of harassment by classic D&D designer Frank Mentzer, who has gotten a bunch of followers to attack his accuser. And the harassment and assault by game designer James Webb- which Paizo did nothing about. Not to mention the fact that serial harasser Zak Smith was involved with 5th edition.
I can appreciate a desire to go back to basics, and I can even uderstand the OSR movement as a reaction to modern indie games. But to a large extent the movement also seems to me to have a lot of elements that see it as a reactionary movement against diversity, against women in gaming, against anything post 1970s.
And yeah, I'm probably being unkind to the people who just like to play D&D. But this is exactly the wrong time for me to see this. article. I see a lot of parallels (and some of the same same names) in the OSR crowd and the rabid puppies. So I can't be all that happy with the return of "Classic" D&D.
My experience when playing AD&D (2nd ed, so old) was that it was really just a game we played from a book and we had no clue who the people who wrote it were, and weren't really interested in knowing about them. It was just a game in a book, with often flawed rules we'd change because we could.
I'm in with the 'lets not knowingly support garbage people' principle, but people don't research the background of game authors before they start playing games/buying books.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:05 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can appreciate a desire to go back to basics, and I can even uderstand the OSR movement as a reaction to modern indie games. But to a large extent the movement also seems to me to have a lot of elements that see it as a reactionary movement against diversity, against women in gaming, against anything post 1970s.
And yeah, I'm probably being unkind to the people who just like to play D&D. But this is exactly the wrong time for me to see this. article. I see a lot of parallels (and some of the same same names) in the OSR crowd and the rabid puppies. So I can't be all that happy with the return of "Classic" D&D.
My experience when playing AD&D (2nd ed, so old) was that it was really just a game we played from a book and we had no clue who the people who wrote it were, and weren't really interested in knowing about them. It was just a game in a book, with often flawed rules we'd change because we could.
I'm in with the 'lets not knowingly support garbage people' principle, but people don't research the background of game authors before they start playing games/buying books.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:05 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I blame Twitch. And Discord. and possibly Youtube.
D&D's growing popularity is in major part, in my view, due to the seemingly endless appetite for game "let's plays" and streams. You can't talk about this phenomenon without mentioning Critical Role and Matt Mercer.
But the social obstacles to pen and paper role playing games remain. It's difficult to find people who can commit to a regular play session, which makes it extra difficult to delve any deeper than simple one shots, and the fragmenting of the hobby hasn't helped.
The point is in fact that that those barriers are changing. A new player's options now are not just finding the right bunch from homeroom or putting up with some terrible people at LGS open nights. Adventure League, the new D&D Beyond, Roll20, etc... all provide organization, opportunity and outlets that were never available before. And that remove offers a safety and security that have aided, for example the great influx of women and girls into the hobby too.
D&D now isn't the same as the RPG hobby of the 90s or even the 2000s. Technology has been an amazing mediator and the hobby is exploding right now because about 5 years ago it---player's devices, connections speeds, internet services----finally started to get good enough. The fact the 5e is likely the most player friendly version of the game ever helps too, but I don't think that's especially important when put against the other factors at play.
posted by bonehead at 5:38 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
D&D's growing popularity is in major part, in my view, due to the seemingly endless appetite for game "let's plays" and streams. You can't talk about this phenomenon without mentioning Critical Role and Matt Mercer.
But the social obstacles to pen and paper role playing games remain. It's difficult to find people who can commit to a regular play session, which makes it extra difficult to delve any deeper than simple one shots, and the fragmenting of the hobby hasn't helped.
The point is in fact that that those barriers are changing. A new player's options now are not just finding the right bunch from homeroom or putting up with some terrible people at LGS open nights. Adventure League, the new D&D Beyond, Roll20, etc... all provide organization, opportunity and outlets that were never available before. And that remove offers a safety and security that have aided, for example the great influx of women and girls into the hobby too.
D&D now isn't the same as the RPG hobby of the 90s or even the 2000s. Technology has been an amazing mediator and the hobby is exploding right now because about 5 years ago it---player's devices, connections speeds, internet services----finally started to get good enough. The fact the 5e is likely the most player friendly version of the game ever helps too, but I don't think that's especially important when put against the other factors at play.
posted by bonehead at 5:38 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
Board games have also hugely gained in popularity over the last decade or so. Before the rise of twitch and rpg podcasts. I'm going to go with "something something millennials something something smartphones something something avocado toast something something cheap hobbies."
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
The current season, Tomb of Annihilation, takes place in Chult, which is a prehistoric jungly sort of place. I have a hunch that it has singlehandedly caused a small but noticeable uptick in sales of tiny plastic dinosaurs.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Only tangentially relevant but I wanted to boast, so:
I DMed my first session last weekend! It was fun. A one off, since 1/2 the players were brand new to the game and no one knew if they wanted / were going to be able to commit to an ongoing session. Not sure I'm going to make it a regular thing, though, because a) I have enough to do and b) I find it pretty stressful to be responsible for an entire room of people's fun.
posted by quaking fajita at 7:20 AM on October 25, 2017 [15 favorites]
I DMed my first session last weekend! It was fun. A one off, since 1/2 the players were brand new to the game and no one knew if they wanted / were going to be able to commit to an ongoing session. Not sure I'm going to make it a regular thing, though, because a) I have enough to do and b) I find it pretty stressful to be responsible for an entire room of people's fun.
posted by quaking fajita at 7:20 AM on October 25, 2017 [15 favorites]
Congratulations, quaking fajita! I also GMed for the first time recently. My group is currently playing Starfinder, Pathfinder's space opera variant, and we blew through the first module of its first adventure path before the second one was published, so I adapted a Mass Effect 2 mission for the game's big space station setting. It was a lot of fun, even though I overprepared in some areas and underprepared in others, and the players seemed to enjoy it as well, but I totally get the thing about it being a ton of work and a bit of a crapshoot as to whether or not people will get into it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Heh, even though I live in Harlem now, I think of Brooklyn Strategist as my FLGS. Probably stopping by there tonight (D.M.ing a session I haven't prepped at all at a friend's place right by them.) Anyway, good on 'em.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:41 AM on October 25, 2017
posted by Navelgazer at 7:41 AM on October 25, 2017
I played Ye Olde AD&D in adolescence, didn't play for decades, then got back into 5th edition recently. The rules are much improved (apparently they were very heavily playtested). I started as a player in one campaign and have been DMing another since January.
There's now a better emphasis on diversity compared to what I saw before, though it could be better. Here is some of the artwork from the Player's Handbook.
posted by exogenous at 7:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
There's now a better emphasis on diversity compared to what I saw before, though it could be better. Here is some of the artwork from the Player's Handbook.
posted by exogenous at 7:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
My best friend, who I met through tabletop gaming (and who is a published gaming author for the Hero System, one of the few writing for it), is dying right now of a glioblastoma. In the twenty-two days since he collapsed, it has grown from two to four inches, and he is no longer really conscious - he sometimes recognizes there is a person there, but shows no signs of recognizing them, does not speak, barely moves.
I have reconnected with people who gamed with him and wandered off, all brought together through Mike's illness (and probable death soon). Other friends from that group have died, and the widow of one of them, brought into the group by her late husband, is a staple of our group now. (My wife has never gotten to play with Mike running Champions or Pathfinder, and now never will.)
These are my friends. We've been playing for literally decades.
For some it's back. For some of us, it never left. And despite his loss, we will not let it be left behind. To do so would betray our memories of him.
posted by mephron at 7:55 AM on October 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
I have reconnected with people who gamed with him and wandered off, all brought together through Mike's illness (and probable death soon). Other friends from that group have died, and the widow of one of them, brought into the group by her late husband, is a staple of our group now. (My wife has never gotten to play with Mike running Champions or Pathfinder, and now never will.)
These are my friends. We've been playing for literally decades.
For some it's back. For some of us, it never left. And despite his loss, we will not let it be left behind. To do so would betray our memories of him.
posted by mephron at 7:55 AM on October 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
“I’ve had parents get very upset with me,” said Freeman, who recently opened another store near Columbia University. “Because they sign their kids up for role playing and my staff is trying to expand their horizons beyond D. & D. and into other independent games. But the parents are, like, ‘If they can’t play D. & D., then I don’t know if this is going to work.’ ”"I played D&D. My father played D&D. And, goddamnit, my son is going to play D&D! That's the way we do things in this family!"
posted by octobersurprise at 8:10 AM on October 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
A friend of mine is on the tech staff in a professional theatre. Their current show has almost no cues, so to while away the time they are running a backstage D&D campaign. It's my friend's first game and he's a half-elven ranger (of course). I am so looking forward to hearing how it goes...
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:16 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:16 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I was just thinking the other day how I wish I had bought, when they for sale were at the old game store on Pharr Road in Atlanta ("The Sword Of The Phoenix"), those proto-D&D booklets (Greyhawk?), if only for retirement grease purposes. I could have been a contender! Of course, I would have ended up losing or destroying them by careless handling, at age 11 or 12.
posted by thelonius at 8:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 8:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I played Ye Olde AD&D in adolescence, didn't play for decades, then got back into 5th edition recently. The rules are much improved (apparently they were very heavily playtested). I started as a player in one campaign and have been DMing another since January.
I'm also sure they changed their audience for playtests. I had a colleague who was in the playtests for AD&D 3rd edition, but in that era, I'd guess most people you'd recruit for a 3rd ed playtest were already avid D&D players. That changes the feedback you'll get.
There's now a better emphasis on diversity compared to what I saw before, though it could be better. Here is some of the artwork from the Player's Handbook.
I'd have been impressed at the removal of boob-plates and chain-kinis (do I have low expectations?), but this seems much improved.
All that D&D talk kinda makes me want to 'get the band back together' and roll new characters! (I even have my own basement now, for an authentic D&D experience)
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm also sure they changed their audience for playtests. I had a colleague who was in the playtests for AD&D 3rd edition, but in that era, I'd guess most people you'd recruit for a 3rd ed playtest were already avid D&D players. That changes the feedback you'll get.
There's now a better emphasis on diversity compared to what I saw before, though it could be better. Here is some of the artwork from the Player's Handbook.
I'd have been impressed at the removal of boob-plates and chain-kinis (do I have low expectations?), but this seems much improved.
All that D&D talk kinda makes me want to 'get the band back together' and roll new characters! (I even have my own basement now, for an authentic D&D experience)
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think that unlike most of the gaming community, D&D is really welcoming to women and queer folks and that's one of the reasons it appeals to me. Also, I get warm fuzzy feelings upon opening the 5th edition player's handbook and seeing such a great diversity of badass women represented throughout.
posted by Emily's Fist at 8:57 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Emily's Fist at 8:57 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Even though they're far from perfect, WoTC has been trying really hard to be better in inclusivity. I really do think it's starting to show both in the cultures on- and off-line. IRL seems to be the hardest still: game stores and cons, all well documented here on mefi. But the online fora, including \r\dnd and \r\dndNext are much, much better than I remember the old rec.games.dnd being ten years ago. It's striking shocking and incredibly off-putting seeing what's allowed in many vidya game fora by comparison. I do think a lot of that comes from the top.
posted by bonehead at 9:15 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 9:15 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
D&D is not my jam, but I have been playing RPG's since 1981, and definitely respect and acknowledge that the new 5th Edition has really been a good shot in the arm for the hobby in general.
Call of C'thulhu IS my jam, and I play at home once a month, I play online weekly, and I'm getting ready to start my own online group. We should be throwing sanity rolls on a weekly basis, very soon.
It's a good time to be into this, or get into this hobby.
Pick a system or a world that you love, dig in, find players, and enjoy the hell out of it.
HIGLY recommend.
But beware of Kickstarter, and choose what to support judiciously, as you can run up a very heavy credit card bill very quickly with all the offerings that appear weekly. That way lies madness.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 9:25 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
Call of C'thulhu IS my jam, and I play at home once a month, I play online weekly, and I'm getting ready to start my own online group. We should be throwing sanity rolls on a weekly basis, very soon.
It's a good time to be into this, or get into this hobby.
Pick a system or a world that you love, dig in, find players, and enjoy the hell out of it.
HIGLY recommend.
But beware of Kickstarter, and choose what to support judiciously, as you can run up a very heavy credit card bill very quickly with all the offerings that appear weekly. That way lies madness.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 9:25 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
WOTC staff marched in the Seattle pride parade this year, with a banner reading “Dragons and elves belong in our worlds. And so do you.” This makes me ridiculously happy.
posted by skycrashesdown at 9:34 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by skycrashesdown at 9:34 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
I DMed my first session last weekend!
Yay! It was at the suggestion of quaking fajita that I started running a (non-D&D) fantasy rpg a few years ago with a bunch of mefites and mefite-adjacent types. Most were relative newcomers, so this sort of news is like seeing your kid accepted to university.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:06 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yay! It was at the suggestion of quaking fajita that I started running a (non-D&D) fantasy rpg a few years ago with a bunch of mefites and mefite-adjacent types. Most were relative newcomers, so this sort of news is like seeing your kid accepted to university.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:06 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've been playing a forum-based game with a bunch of MeFites (I think exclusively MeFites?) for over 2 years now. Given the format, it's pretty slow-going (our characters are only up to level 6), but it has been a ton of fun and a pretty decent way to get a little role playing back into my life without the time commitment of a weekly session. I tried to get my teenage daughter interested in a solo campaign about a young bard heading off to try their hand at the music biz in the big city and getting wrapped up in a race to find a legendary musical instrument along the way), but it didn't seem to really take. I was really kind of proud of the world building I did, so maybe I'll see if I can DM it online.
One of my favorite things was that when she was selecting her character race and I mentioned half-elves, she said "Can I be half-elf, half-dwarf?" I paused for a second and said, "Sure you can be a Dwelf. Give me a minute to figure out what that looks like." So after that session I went ahead and created the full spectrum of mixed-race PCs and NPCs (there were already only going to be humans, elves, dwarves and halflings in the world, so it wasn't that insane) including halfling-human "Quarterlings" and elf-halfling "Greenchildren" - along with how this society views mixed-race individuals, and what that means for the campaign, etc, etc. It was a great example of my favorite part of GMing - a tossed-off comment by a player can just reveal a whole expanse of world that you didn't realize you were missing until they said it.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:30 AM on October 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
One of my favorite things was that when she was selecting her character race and I mentioned half-elves, she said "Can I be half-elf, half-dwarf?" I paused for a second and said, "Sure you can be a Dwelf. Give me a minute to figure out what that looks like." So after that session I went ahead and created the full spectrum of mixed-race PCs and NPCs (there were already only going to be humans, elves, dwarves and halflings in the world, so it wasn't that insane) including halfling-human "Quarterlings" and elf-halfling "Greenchildren" - along with how this society views mixed-race individuals, and what that means for the campaign, etc, etc. It was a great example of my favorite part of GMing - a tossed-off comment by a player can just reveal a whole expanse of world that you didn't realize you were missing until they said it.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:30 AM on October 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
I would love to RPG online with other Mefites! Google Hangouts is still easy peasy. We really need a way to make this happen; like MeFight Club, only different.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:20 PM on October 25, 2017
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:20 PM on October 25, 2017
Yes please. Metafilter RPG club would be super swell. I just don’t have the time to run games anymore and I don’t know anyone who can both keep a game going and also doesn’t live an hour or more away.
posted by Caduceus at 12:53 PM on October 25, 2017
posted by Caduceus at 12:53 PM on October 25, 2017
We really need a way to make this happen; like MeFight Club, only different.
I've been running multiple campaigns for MeFighters online since 2009. In fact, we've been playing long enough that we're currently adapting the homebrew setting for 5e.
Come fire up a thread.
posted by absalom at 12:53 PM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
I've been running multiple campaigns for MeFighters online since 2009. In fact, we've been playing long enough that we're currently adapting the homebrew setting for 5e.
Come fire up a thread.
posted by absalom at 12:53 PM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Speaking of kickstarter RPG craziness...I ended up backing "Invisible Sun' from Monte Cook Games, a foolish choice that only seems more foolish in light of the fact that I have no local friends to play with. It isn't expected to ship until February, but if anyone is interested I'd be up for running some form of internet mediated game. Message me!
posted by Ipsifendus at 1:00 PM on October 25, 2017
posted by Ipsifendus at 1:00 PM on October 25, 2017
I've been running multiple campaigns for MeFighters online since 2009. In fact, we've been playing long enough that we're currently adapting the homebrew setting for 5e.
Come fire up a thread.
How do I work this?
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:51 PM on October 25, 2017
Come fire up a thread.
How do I work this?
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:51 PM on October 25, 2017
Speaking of kickstarter RPG craziness...I ended up backing "Invisible Sun' from Monte Cook Games, a foolish choice that only seems more foolish in light of the fact that I have no local friends to play with.
I type "my jaw dropped" on the internet a lot, but it never really does, it's just a figure of speech.
Then I saw the Invisible Sun Kickstarter when it first came out, and, for the first time, my jaw actually dropped.
I then texted some of my other Old Dudes Who Game, and we had a very nice Back When I Was A Kid, Get Off My Lawn based gripe session. It was quite nice.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 2:24 PM on October 25, 2017
I type "my jaw dropped" on the internet a lot, but it never really does, it's just a figure of speech.
Then I saw the Invisible Sun Kickstarter when it first came out, and, for the first time, my jaw actually dropped.
I then texted some of my other Old Dudes Who Game, and we had a very nice Back When I Was A Kid, Get Off My Lawn based gripe session. It was quite nice.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 2:24 PM on October 25, 2017
I'm not going to dredge up the old 4E stuff again. I have no doubt that there's great things in it, but it just didn't seem like D&D to me.
I actually agree. I think they got to the right place with 5e and with games like 13th age and the OSR renaissance.
Ha, I think my first post in 2012 was arguing with you about this so the circle is complete. Pass, good nerdfriend.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:51 PM on October 25, 2017
I actually agree. I think they got to the right place with 5e and with games like 13th age and the OSR renaissance.
Ha, I think my first post in 2012 was arguing with you about this so the circle is complete. Pass, good nerdfriend.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:51 PM on October 25, 2017
We did Call of Cthulhu years ago in a forum set up by edogy, I'm not sure if he's even around anymore though.
posted by JHarris at 3:37 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by JHarris at 3:37 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm playing my first campaign under 5e, and so far it seems to do a pretty decent job of retaining the feel of D&D but streamlining it a bit compared to 3.5. I appreciated the design skill in 4e, but I couldn't help feeling that it was playing WoW rather than D&D, and I missed the classic feel.
posted by tavella at 4:13 PM on October 25, 2017
posted by tavella at 4:13 PM on October 25, 2017
It was foretold in the prophecy of Vecna, if you live past the age of forty the dungeons and the dragons will become cool again.
posted by SageLeVoid at 6:42 PM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by SageLeVoid at 6:42 PM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
Ctrl-f “adventure zone” No matches
Ctrl-f “mcelroy” No matches
From the article: "Two popular role-playing shows, “The Adventure Zone” and “Critical Role,” sent Freeman’s older patrons to their knees, begging for more D. & D. time in the store."
posted by joelhunt at 6:49 PM on October 25, 2017
Ctrl-f “mcelroy” No matches
From the article: "Two popular role-playing shows, “The Adventure Zone” and “Critical Role,” sent Freeman’s older patrons to their knees, begging for more D. & D. time in the store."
posted by joelhunt at 6:49 PM on October 25, 2017
Halloween Jack: How do I work this?
So! I went to mefite club (http://mefightclub.com), signed in (I was already registered) and started THIS HERE THREAD.
If you're keen for gaming, maybe absolom will help us out?
posted by coriolisdave at 11:08 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
So! I went to mefite club (http://mefightclub.com), signed in (I was already registered) and started THIS HERE THREAD.
If you're keen for gaming, maybe absolom will help us out?
posted by coriolisdave at 11:08 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
This guy has been running a D&D campaign for 35 years (primarily video)
posted by exogenous at 5:03 AM on October 26, 2017
posted by exogenous at 5:03 AM on October 26, 2017
I'm not going to dredge up the old 4E stuff again.
That's OK, I'll do it :)
My gaming group has varied pasts, but we have people who have played basically every edition of D&D back to pre-2e (before there was an AD&D, which of course stopped being a thing at 3.x). We've also played tons of other non-d20 RPGs ranging from super crunchy to super lightweight and everything in between. We're equally happy playing hardcore tactical combat as we are freeform roleplaying.
D&D 4e is literally the only game system we've ever just up and abandoned. It's not that it "wasn't D&D", it's that it wasn't fun.
5e is thankfully a lot better. It manages to streamline things in a way that keeps them interesting, versus turning the game into a tactical-combat-only boardgame with a bunch of classes that are really one class re-skinned repeatedly.
posted by tocts at 5:12 AM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's OK, I'll do it :)
My gaming group has varied pasts, but we have people who have played basically every edition of D&D back to pre-2e (before there was an AD&D, which of course stopped being a thing at 3.x). We've also played tons of other non-d20 RPGs ranging from super crunchy to super lightweight and everything in between. We're equally happy playing hardcore tactical combat as we are freeform roleplaying.
D&D 4e is literally the only game system we've ever just up and abandoned. It's not that it "wasn't D&D", it's that it wasn't fun.
5e is thankfully a lot better. It manages to streamline things in a way that keeps them interesting, versus turning the game into a tactical-combat-only boardgame with a bunch of classes that are really one class re-skinned repeatedly.
posted by tocts at 5:12 AM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
So a little late to this thread. I haven't really been much of a role player since the late 80's which I am still in denial about being 30 years ago.
So if we harken back to ye olden days, one thing to note was that RPG companies were two things: tiny and terribly managed. Of Dice and Men and Designers and Dragons document this pretty well. Even at it's peak, TSR was run just so badly. It's amazing anything got printed and shipped at all. When TSR got acquired by Wizards in '97 this was just after the 2nd edition which was just too many books. The company was trying to print its way into the black and that wasn't working. And I don't think Wizards really knew WTF they wanted to do with TSR post-acquisition - witness the ~15 years of 3rd ed, 3.5 and 4th ed.
Simultaneously, book stores died. In the 80's there were comic shops with huge RPG selections. But there was an inevitable swing in the market, the RPG market shrank and all the nerds moved to Magic. And perhaps RPGs could have been saved by bookstores except... in the 90's and 2000s bookstores also died. So if your business was selling something book-shaped to nerds, it was a rough, rough time. You can't ignore that games like D&D don't just sell themselves - they need to be on shelves where people are going to go and buy them. Also, Ultima Online showed up in '97 followed by WoW in 2004 and these both ate away at the time and money of the likely D&D/RPG fan base.
That said, some people soldiered on but sadly many former players like myself dropped the hobby in college and beyond and didn't return (in my case except to collect Traveller books like a crazy cat man)
Then a few things happened. Wizards finally designed an decent game that wasn't WoW on paper. There's a certain fatigue with online RPGs, which like 1st ed D&D, have simply run their course through the popular imagination. Similarly Magic as a fad was over. I'm sure there will be Magic players until the end of time, but it won't be anywhere near it's peak. Settlers of Catan was published in '95 which was the leading edge of the board game revival which in turn led to viable game stores that weren't just comics and Magic cards. And Wizards continued to hammer away at D&D trying to figure out how to make money from it. They wrote 5th ed and, perhaps even more importantly, they marketed it.
People could go buy the game at games/comic stores again and now everyone bought stuff online unlike when bookstores died but not quite everyone had caught up to shopping online yet. AND THEN you have YouTube and very savvy marketing through channels like Penny Arcade - yes, I too love the McElroys and have become a TAZ nutbar (via a mefite on twitter, thanks for nothing! Now I have 60 more podcast episodes to go!) but they're far from the only ones playing in public. Love or hate Gabe and Tycho but Acquisitions Inc was some amazing marketing for D&D. But there are tons of these groups now. And the technology has caught up to make it so much easier to watch people play and to play over Skype or Hangouts or whatever.
FINALLY - there is a cycle to nostalgia. The 80's are cool again. Somehow 80's bands seem as ubiquitous as ever. Fucking kid today listen to 80's music! That would have been me bopping out to 50's beats in my equivalent childhood! Which would have been nuts. So people are receptive to this retro hobby except now they've shed any negative associations with "geek culture" and see it for what it is, a fun, loosely-structured social game.
So there are a lot of different factors which this rather weak article misses which is sad. But IMO it is kind of a miracle that the hobby survived a very dark period and has come out the other side. As much as Wizards killed TSR in the 90's kudos to them for hanging on for a long, shitty time and sticking with it.
Also now I have to find someone to go play D&D with again. :/
posted by GuyZero at 8:59 AM on October 26, 2017 [7 favorites]
So if we harken back to ye olden days, one thing to note was that RPG companies were two things: tiny and terribly managed. Of Dice and Men and Designers and Dragons document this pretty well. Even at it's peak, TSR was run just so badly. It's amazing anything got printed and shipped at all. When TSR got acquired by Wizards in '97 this was just after the 2nd edition which was just too many books. The company was trying to print its way into the black and that wasn't working. And I don't think Wizards really knew WTF they wanted to do with TSR post-acquisition - witness the ~15 years of 3rd ed, 3.5 and 4th ed.
Simultaneously, book stores died. In the 80's there were comic shops with huge RPG selections. But there was an inevitable swing in the market, the RPG market shrank and all the nerds moved to Magic. And perhaps RPGs could have been saved by bookstores except... in the 90's and 2000s bookstores also died. So if your business was selling something book-shaped to nerds, it was a rough, rough time. You can't ignore that games like D&D don't just sell themselves - they need to be on shelves where people are going to go and buy them. Also, Ultima Online showed up in '97 followed by WoW in 2004 and these both ate away at the time and money of the likely D&D/RPG fan base.
That said, some people soldiered on but sadly many former players like myself dropped the hobby in college and beyond and didn't return (in my case except to collect Traveller books like a crazy cat man)
Then a few things happened. Wizards finally designed an decent game that wasn't WoW on paper. There's a certain fatigue with online RPGs, which like 1st ed D&D, have simply run their course through the popular imagination. Similarly Magic as a fad was over. I'm sure there will be Magic players until the end of time, but it won't be anywhere near it's peak. Settlers of Catan was published in '95 which was the leading edge of the board game revival which in turn led to viable game stores that weren't just comics and Magic cards. And Wizards continued to hammer away at D&D trying to figure out how to make money from it. They wrote 5th ed and, perhaps even more importantly, they marketed it.
People could go buy the game at games/comic stores again and now everyone bought stuff online unlike when bookstores died but not quite everyone had caught up to shopping online yet. AND THEN you have YouTube and very savvy marketing through channels like Penny Arcade - yes, I too love the McElroys and have become a TAZ nutbar (via a mefite on twitter, thanks for nothing! Now I have 60 more podcast episodes to go!) but they're far from the only ones playing in public. Love or hate Gabe and Tycho but Acquisitions Inc was some amazing marketing for D&D. But there are tons of these groups now. And the technology has caught up to make it so much easier to watch people play and to play over Skype or Hangouts or whatever.
FINALLY - there is a cycle to nostalgia. The 80's are cool again. Somehow 80's bands seem as ubiquitous as ever. Fucking kid today listen to 80's music! That would have been me bopping out to 50's beats in my equivalent childhood! Which would have been nuts. So people are receptive to this retro hobby except now they've shed any negative associations with "geek culture" and see it for what it is, a fun, loosely-structured social game.
So there are a lot of different factors which this rather weak article misses which is sad. But IMO it is kind of a miracle that the hobby survived a very dark period and has come out the other side. As much as Wizards killed TSR in the 90's kudos to them for hanging on for a long, shitty time and sticking with it.
Also now I have to find someone to go play D&D with again. :/
posted by GuyZero at 8:59 AM on October 26, 2017 [7 favorites]
Oh and also... people have finally figured out ways to balance narrative plan and roll-playing mechanics. I would have loved to run a cinematic game in the 80's but I sure as shit didn't know how. And that's because it's kind of tough. I think it really collectively took people decades to figure out how to help people do what's basically improv storytelling combined with accounting and an actual game involving rules and dice. 80's D&D murderhobo modules looks pretty dated these days - although I haven't picked up an actual 5th ed module so who know, maybe people are just way more accepting of the murderhobo lifestyle and that's all there is to it. But I think that people just plain old figured out better ways to play. All those tiny late 80's early 90's RPGs helped forge new styles that eventually made their way back into the mothership of D&D.
posted by GuyZero at 9:23 AM on October 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 9:23 AM on October 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
Oh and also... people have finally figured out ways to balance narrative plan and roll-playing mechanics. I would have loved to run a cinematic game in the 80's but I sure as shit didn't know how. And that's because it's kind of tough. I think it really collectively took people decades to figure out how to help people do what's basically improv storytelling combined with accounting and an actual game involving rules and dice. 80's D&D murderhobo modules looks pretty dated these days - although I haven't picked up an actual 5th ed module so who know, maybe people are just way more accepting of the murderhobo lifestyle and that's all there is to it. But I think that people just plain old figured out better ways to play. All those tiny late 80's early 90's RPGs helped forge new styles that eventually made their way back into the mothership of D&D.
Got more details about that? What changed? Super interested in this.
We bought lots of rule books, but never modules. After an initial ridiculously time intensive effort at building my own world + stories my DMing usually consisted of a setup, enticing the players to an objective and winging it from there (not saying these were narrative masterpieces). We found it more fun and creative this way.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:36 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Got more details about that? What changed? Super interested in this.
We bought lots of rule books, but never modules. After an initial ridiculously time intensive effort at building my own world + stories my DMing usually consisted of a setup, enticing the players to an objective and winging it from there (not saying these were narrative masterpieces). We found it more fun and creative this way.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:36 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Good stuff, GuyZero. The 80s thing reminds me, a friend who owns a couple of game stores is convinced that the recent Stranger Things TV series caused a boost in sales of fifth edition at her stores.
As a youth playing 1st edition AD&D I had more time and imagination than money so I never picked up any of the modules but this weekend we're continuing Princes of the Apocalypse which we're about half through now. It's not great but they players are enjoying it.
posted by exogenous at 9:41 AM on October 26, 2017
As a youth playing 1st edition AD&D I had more time and imagination than money so I never picked up any of the modules but this weekend we're continuing Princes of the Apocalypse which we're about half through now. It's not great but they players are enjoying it.
posted by exogenous at 9:41 AM on October 26, 2017
Got more details about that? What changed? Super interested in this.
I think GuyZero is talking about sandbox vs adventure path styles of play.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:30 AM on October 26, 2017
I think GuyZero is talking about sandbox vs adventure path styles of play.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:30 AM on October 26, 2017
I think GuyZero is talking about sandbox vs adventure path styles of play.
So yeah. Although somewhat embarrassing to admit I didn't know of those exact terms. But it's not just that. it's designing games where the desire for narrative and game mechanics work together. Which is hard. I'm going to ramble on some more but don't take this as actual researched or academic writing - I'm just going off shit I remember and I can't remember things I never knew, which is most things.
On sandbox vs adventure path I guess we can point to Dragonlance being the first major example of this although I'm unsure whether it was done to move the art forward so much as it was to ship more books. But in '84 it was a big step forward from small-unit wargaming and the early murderhobo adventures (re-reading the summary of the D-series modules I'm honestly shocked there was any sort of plot whatsoever).
Anyway, after that we had GURPS and the next wave of games that offered both new mechanics and settings - sanity in CoC, a healthy supply of clones in Paranoia and eventually games broadly adopted mechanics for things other than stabbing orcs (or shooting arrows in orcs, burning orcs with fireballs, etc). MegaTraveller had a general task resolution system in '87 which is probably around the same time GURPS had one. But I'm going to pretend GURPS didn't get popular until the 3rd ed in '88.
Anyway, so come '90 or so we have games that try to tell stories that aren't just killing orcs and offering something different as games qua games. And then, about the time I lost interest in the field things really took off.
In 2002 the Indie RPG Awards started as there was critical mass of independent games coming out. I know zero about them, but clearly they were a lot of people all trying different stuff, sometimes for the sake of being different. LIke WTF was Dogs in the Vinyard it sounds both cool and impossibly narrow at the same time. 2004 winner FATE was where in my mind a game really tried hard to combine the storytelling and mechanics together.
But back to the 90's where we had the success of the game the us grognards love to hate: Vampire: the Masquerade. Take care to not forget the colon. The whole White Wolf ouvre was not my bag, but I think it would be crazy to ignore it. That's where a game went whole-hog on storytelling and mostly left accountancy and roll-playing behind. I mean, I guess it did, I never played it. But my third-hand vibe is that most Vampire campaigns weren't about being tomb robbers or kobold genocide. It was wholly about narrative for the first time. Plus we can loosely tie in the rise of LARPing here and how that type of experience threaded its way back into pencil and paper games.
Anyway, I'm sure someone, someday will go through the Indie RPG award winners and the Origin award winners and various other sources and construct a history of advances in RPGs but I think a lot of really interesting things happened when role-playing was a hobby out lost in the wilderness (relative to the mass market) and much of what the industry learned then is coming back to the resurgence of D&D now.
John Kim's A Critical History of Role-playing Games covers more of that period much better than I ever could although I wish it could get updated to cover the last decade or so. I'm sure there's tons of other who have written on it as well but again, the whole period for me is define primarily by my ignorance of it.
posted by GuyZero at 1:01 PM on October 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
So yeah. Although somewhat embarrassing to admit I didn't know of those exact terms. But it's not just that. it's designing games where the desire for narrative and game mechanics work together. Which is hard. I'm going to ramble on some more but don't take this as actual researched or academic writing - I'm just going off shit I remember and I can't remember things I never knew, which is most things.
On sandbox vs adventure path I guess we can point to Dragonlance being the first major example of this although I'm unsure whether it was done to move the art forward so much as it was to ship more books. But in '84 it was a big step forward from small-unit wargaming and the early murderhobo adventures (re-reading the summary of the D-series modules I'm honestly shocked there was any sort of plot whatsoever).
Anyway, after that we had GURPS and the next wave of games that offered both new mechanics and settings - sanity in CoC, a healthy supply of clones in Paranoia and eventually games broadly adopted mechanics for things other than stabbing orcs (or shooting arrows in orcs, burning orcs with fireballs, etc). MegaTraveller had a general task resolution system in '87 which is probably around the same time GURPS had one. But I'm going to pretend GURPS didn't get popular until the 3rd ed in '88.
Anyway, so come '90 or so we have games that try to tell stories that aren't just killing orcs and offering something different as games qua games. And then, about the time I lost interest in the field things really took off.
In 2002 the Indie RPG Awards started as there was critical mass of independent games coming out. I know zero about them, but clearly they were a lot of people all trying different stuff, sometimes for the sake of being different. LIke WTF was Dogs in the Vinyard it sounds both cool and impossibly narrow at the same time. 2004 winner FATE was where in my mind a game really tried hard to combine the storytelling and mechanics together.
But back to the 90's where we had the success of the game the us grognards love to hate: Vampire: the Masquerade. Take care to not forget the colon. The whole White Wolf ouvre was not my bag, but I think it would be crazy to ignore it. That's where a game went whole-hog on storytelling and mostly left accountancy and roll-playing behind. I mean, I guess it did, I never played it. But my third-hand vibe is that most Vampire campaigns weren't about being tomb robbers or kobold genocide. It was wholly about narrative for the first time. Plus we can loosely tie in the rise of LARPing here and how that type of experience threaded its way back into pencil and paper games.
Anyway, I'm sure someone, someday will go through the Indie RPG award winners and the Origin award winners and various other sources and construct a history of advances in RPGs but I think a lot of really interesting things happened when role-playing was a hobby out lost in the wilderness (relative to the mass market) and much of what the industry learned then is coming back to the resurgence of D&D now.
John Kim's A Critical History of Role-playing Games covers more of that period much better than I ever could although I wish it could get updated to cover the last decade or so. I'm sure there's tons of other who have written on it as well but again, the whole period for me is define primarily by my ignorance of it.
posted by GuyZero at 1:01 PM on October 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
I should also add - my entire vision of what 2017 roleplaying is about comes primary through podcasts and watching people play on YT. Acquisitions Inc, The Adventure Zone and a few others I've seen here and there that I never went back to. All those things are coloured by the fact that everyone in those games is a performer for an audience, which isn't what happens behind closed doors.
But from listening to TAZ you can tell the game is very much informed by improv comedy ("Yes, and...") and a very heavy-handed adventure path style (although I'm only 30 episodes in).
To quote the Wikipedia page for Dogs in the Vinyard: "It introduced the idea of 'say yes or roll', where GMs either went along with player suggestions, or gave them opportunity to occur through a die roll. " Which is the sort of thing I see in TAZ and other performed games and since it seems like it was innovative in 2004 I guess people were trying for that thing before that point but hadn't quite codified it yet.
posted by GuyZero at 1:08 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
But from listening to TAZ you can tell the game is very much informed by improv comedy ("Yes, and...") and a very heavy-handed adventure path style (although I'm only 30 episodes in).
To quote the Wikipedia page for Dogs in the Vinyard: "It introduced the idea of 'say yes or roll', where GMs either went along with player suggestions, or gave them opportunity to occur through a die roll. " Which is the sort of thing I see in TAZ and other performed games and since it seems like it was innovative in 2004 I guess people were trying for that thing before that point but hadn't quite codified it yet.
posted by GuyZero at 1:08 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Not to open a debate here - I haven't played D&D since the late 80s - but I think the criticism of the story-based gaming that came to dominate in more recent times is that effectively the DM has written a story, and you players are going to play your parts in it. And we cannot get to part two of the story where you pursue the Mad Warlock across the Forbidden Wastes, unless you enter the Mad Warlock's dungeon in part one, so you WILL be entering that dungeon, even if you would much rather check out the mysterious noises down by the docks. "Railroading" is the usual epithet.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:47 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Chrysostom at 1:47 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
"Railroading" is the usual epithet.
so I take it you never played a Dragonlance module? Yes, that's the criticism. On the plus side at least you know there will be some narrative structure. And the challenge on the part of the players is to find a way to express the character and bring it to life - or at least to play a semi-active role in expressing the character inside the framework provided by the DM. Geez, in Dragonlance you had the option of playing the pre-fab characters, so you didn't even contribute the basic characterization to the story.
Back to improv, there's a reason that improv performers ask the audience for some random suggestions at the beginning of a show. Without some borders, an unstructured improvisational sandbox is not always highly satisfying. That said, open-endedness is what some people want out of roleplaying. It's one of the things that distinguishes it from, say, just being in an amateur acting troupe.
As game designers discovered in the 90's the real first question of designing an RPG isn't spaceships vs elves, it's "what do you want to accomplish?" For some, it's telling a story, for some it's playing a structured game and then there's the infinite combinations thereof.
posted by GuyZero at 2:22 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
so I take it you never played a Dragonlance module? Yes, that's the criticism. On the plus side at least you know there will be some narrative structure. And the challenge on the part of the players is to find a way to express the character and bring it to life - or at least to play a semi-active role in expressing the character inside the framework provided by the DM. Geez, in Dragonlance you had the option of playing the pre-fab characters, so you didn't even contribute the basic characterization to the story.
Back to improv, there's a reason that improv performers ask the audience for some random suggestions at the beginning of a show. Without some borders, an unstructured improvisational sandbox is not always highly satisfying. That said, open-endedness is what some people want out of roleplaying. It's one of the things that distinguishes it from, say, just being in an amateur acting troupe.
As game designers discovered in the 90's the real first question of designing an RPG isn't spaceships vs elves, it's "what do you want to accomplish?" For some, it's telling a story, for some it's playing a structured game and then there's the infinite combinations thereof.
posted by GuyZero at 2:22 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
you can't really win D&D.
Really? You must not be trying hard enough. Some of my proudest moments are when i announce an action I intent to take and get to watch the GM frantically try to come up with some reason it wouldn't work. I love to bypass puzzles and stupid secret door controls with the simple application of a pick-axe, a chisel, and a sledge.
posted by Megafly at 2:24 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Really? You must not be trying hard enough. Some of my proudest moments are when i announce an action I intent to take and get to watch the GM frantically try to come up with some reason it wouldn't work. I love to bypass puzzles and stupid secret door controls with the simple application of a pick-axe, a chisel, and a sledge.
posted by Megafly at 2:24 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
In my experience, minmaxing makes the game less fun for everybody, even the player who's doing it. I mean, you can't really win D&D.
If I could somehow enumerate the stages of personal intellectual growth, somewhere in the middle of the list is the stage where you behave as though you think you can win D&D. Some people move through that stage, some do not.
posted by GuyZero at 2:29 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
If I could somehow enumerate the stages of personal intellectual growth, somewhere in the middle of the list is the stage where you behave as though you think you can win D&D. Some people move through that stage, some do not.
posted by GuyZero at 2:29 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
GuyZero, I'm finding your timeline to be a bit off, as well as it's focus on D&D to be leaving out major elements of the hobby.
Let's see...
1977: Traveller, first science fiction rpg, discarded levels, and "zero to hero" progression. Skill-basedb game focused on mature characters. Designed for both sandbox and linear adventure play, including adventures about opening trade routes, forming mercenary companies, getting involved in Imperial politics, and well, pretty much anything else. It's also still around.
Traveller was the first major alternative to D&D, and set alternative nodes and styles of play.
1982 Champions second edition, universal skull system, point- build character creation, discarded idea that combat has to be lethal. GURPS is basically a derivative of Champions.
1983: James Bond RPG: designed to emulate Bond style spies, including adventures based directly on the movies. Introduced a universal task table for all actions with degrees of success. Heavy use of social skills and social scenarios, advice for emulating time and feel of movies. There's your narrative gaming.
1986 Ghostbusters- GHOSTBUSTERS. Introduced dice pools, minimalist comedy game with huge amount of innovative and flexible mechanics, major influence on the next 40 years of games.
1987: Star Wars: one of the big ones: You get to play in the Star Wars universe. Open-ended ended character generation, simple dice pools mechanics, and an emphasis on creating stories with a similar level of excitement and style as the movies. Influential? Hell, it influenced the Star Wars expended universe and the movies. There's a reason Rebels feels a lot like a campaign from this game.
And I haven't even gotten to the 90s. But the bottom line is, we didn't have to wait until the 90s for something besides killing orcs. There was a lot of diversity as day as subject matter and play style in the hobby from day 1.
Incidentally, I don't find "say yes" to be the major innovation of DitV. The escalation of conflict mechanic, where you have to decide how badly do you really want to win, THAT be was important and go a lot of people thinking.
Bear in mind that DITV came directly from the "Rules Matter" ideology of game sites like The Forge (which in turn was a reaction to Vampire's promotion of "Ignore our Rules Please", aka Rule zero). DITV was also designed to illustrate the narrow and unintuitive concept of Narrative that the Forge came up with.
By the way, if you find Dogs in the Vineyard narrow and weird, have a look at My Life with Master. Wich was also an inspiration for the indie game movement.
posted by happyroach at 2:38 PM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
Let's see...
1977: Traveller, first science fiction rpg, discarded levels, and "zero to hero" progression. Skill-basedb game focused on mature characters. Designed for both sandbox and linear adventure play, including adventures about opening trade routes, forming mercenary companies, getting involved in Imperial politics, and well, pretty much anything else. It's also still around.
Traveller was the first major alternative to D&D, and set alternative nodes and styles of play.
1982 Champions second edition, universal skull system, point- build character creation, discarded idea that combat has to be lethal. GURPS is basically a derivative of Champions.
1983: James Bond RPG: designed to emulate Bond style spies, including adventures based directly on the movies. Introduced a universal task table for all actions with degrees of success. Heavy use of social skills and social scenarios, advice for emulating time and feel of movies. There's your narrative gaming.
1986 Ghostbusters- GHOSTBUSTERS. Introduced dice pools, minimalist comedy game with huge amount of innovative and flexible mechanics, major influence on the next 40 years of games.
1987: Star Wars: one of the big ones: You get to play in the Star Wars universe. Open-ended ended character generation, simple dice pools mechanics, and an emphasis on creating stories with a similar level of excitement and style as the movies. Influential? Hell, it influenced the Star Wars expended universe and the movies. There's a reason Rebels feels a lot like a campaign from this game.
And I haven't even gotten to the 90s. But the bottom line is, we didn't have to wait until the 90s for something besides killing orcs. There was a lot of diversity as day as subject matter and play style in the hobby from day 1.
Incidentally, I don't find "say yes" to be the major innovation of DitV. The escalation of conflict mechanic, where you have to decide how badly do you really want to win, THAT be was important and go a lot of people thinking.
Bear in mind that DITV came directly from the "Rules Matter" ideology of game sites like The Forge (which in turn was a reaction to Vampire's promotion of "Ignore our Rules Please", aka Rule zero). DITV was also designed to illustrate the narrow and unintuitive concept of Narrative that the Forge came up with.
By the way, if you find Dogs in the Vineyard narrow and weird, have a look at My Life with Master. Wich was also an inspiration for the indie game movement.
posted by happyroach at 2:38 PM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
Traveller
Wow, hadn't thought of that in a long time.
My friends and I played a lot of Melee, and I got The Fantasy Trip, Steve Jackson's expansion of the combat system into an RPG. But we never really got a campaign together. My friends who stuck with gaming got really into Rolemaster. Critical hit tables!
posted by thelonius at 4:39 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Wow, hadn't thought of that in a long time.
My friends and I played a lot of Melee, and I got The Fantasy Trip, Steve Jackson's expansion of the combat system into an RPG. But we never really got a campaign together. My friends who stuck with gaming got really into Rolemaster. Critical hit tables!
posted by thelonius at 4:39 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Traveller
Wow, hadn't thought of that in a long time.
When I commented that I was crazy cat man, I was not kidding btw. I have several dozen Traveller books spanning all the editions from the LBBs to T5 & Mongoose. So don't get me going.
LBB Traveller has many mechanical problems. That's not to say it was a bad game. Dying during character generation remains a sort of RPG trivia gag but like D&D there weren't many character-oriented mechanics beyond combat. The elaborate trading tables were more suitable for solo play rather than being something that made a group of players enjoy time spent together - at least it never felt fulfilling to me. The fact that it made for a pretty good solo game was interesting but it's sort of irrelevant in this modern age of computer games.
As far as a sandbox goes, the Third Imperium was and remains amazing. But many of the individual adventures turned into dungeon crawls. Like early D&D I found it either too big or too small. Tarsus struck a good balance I suppose - there was character motivation through a family connection, the scope was a single planet which was more tractable but it still got sidetracked into things like rules for whether you could get the cell phone number you wanted or whether you got one assigned randomly.
But there are way more games that I never even touched than ever played personally.
happyroach, did you ever play Ghostbusters? What was the experience like?
posted by GuyZero at 4:52 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Wow, hadn't thought of that in a long time.
When I commented that I was crazy cat man, I was not kidding btw. I have several dozen Traveller books spanning all the editions from the LBBs to T5 & Mongoose. So don't get me going.
LBB Traveller has many mechanical problems. That's not to say it was a bad game. Dying during character generation remains a sort of RPG trivia gag but like D&D there weren't many character-oriented mechanics beyond combat. The elaborate trading tables were more suitable for solo play rather than being something that made a group of players enjoy time spent together - at least it never felt fulfilling to me. The fact that it made for a pretty good solo game was interesting but it's sort of irrelevant in this modern age of computer games.
As far as a sandbox goes, the Third Imperium was and remains amazing. But many of the individual adventures turned into dungeon crawls. Like early D&D I found it either too big or too small. Tarsus struck a good balance I suppose - there was character motivation through a family connection, the scope was a single planet which was more tractable but it still got sidetracked into things like rules for whether you could get the cell phone number you wanted or whether you got one assigned randomly.
But there are way more games that I never even touched than ever played personally.
happyroach, did you ever play Ghostbusters? What was the experience like?
posted by GuyZero at 4:52 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
White Wolf was *theoretically* all about story and character - going so far as to calling the table leader a "storyteller" - but in practice I didn't see it play out that way ever, no matter what part of the country I ended up playing it in. They were still very heavily attached to dice-pools and crunchy, intricate rulesets. In practice, what was (I think) created to be a slow and meditative game became a million supernatural action movies.
posted by absalom at 5:03 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by absalom at 5:03 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Reminds me of my crowning "glory" in my roleplaying career.. we'd been playing this intricate game of Vampire for months. Hours and hours of roleplay and setup and storytelling, entirely undone by a couple of rolls. One by the DM to determine a 50/50 (which let my character feed from a super powerful elder vamp), and the other a positive mountain of D10s scattering everywhere, mostly landing on 10, and utterly obliterating the big bad and all his minions in one attack.
Cue one slightly bewildered DM and an abrupt end to the story :(
posted by coriolisdave at 5:12 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Cue one slightly bewildered DM and an abrupt end to the story :(
posted by coriolisdave at 5:12 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, if you were lucky enough to find an active and passionate LARP (Mind's Eye Theatre) group, Vampire was literally the best game in town and all of that tense, dynamic, character driven stuff and more.
I was trying to explain LARP to some friends last night. It was really difficult. Sexually charged model UN? Adjective fueled, Rock-Paper-Scissors Thunderdome? Structured interactive improv theater? Game related excuse to throw a big party?
Check all that apply, I guess.
posted by absalom at 5:43 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
I was trying to explain LARP to some friends last night. It was really difficult. Sexually charged model UN? Adjective fueled, Rock-Paper-Scissors Thunderdome? Structured interactive improv theater? Game related excuse to throw a big party?
Check all that apply, I guess.
posted by absalom at 5:43 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
1987: Star Wars: one of the big ones: You get to play in the Star Wars universe. Open-ended ended character generation, simple dice pools mechanics, and an emphasis on creating stories with a similar level of excitement and style as the movies. Influential? Hell, it influenced the Star Wars expended universe and the movies. There's a reason Rebels feels a lot like a campaign from this game.
Still one of my favorites RPGs, simple and streamlined rules, everybody knows the universe, awesome book. We played it till the prequels were released and sucked all our love of StarWars for a bit. Crowning achievement: shot down a AT-AT with a blaster because I rolled 6 or 7 sixes in a row on the wild dice. The force was with me that day.
Our Star Wars game looked more like Rogue One (minus big events like the rebel fleet attack) than the actual movies but they were so fun (and jedi less, jedis ruin everything).
White Wolf was *theoretically* all about story and character - going so far as to calling the table leader a "storyteller" - but in practice I didn't see it play out that way ever, no matter what part of the country I ended up playing it in. They were still very heavily attached to dice-pools and crunchy, intricate rulesets.
Both the players & DM had to be on board, you can do that style of play with any system but the Vampire books were trying hard to steer you into it if I remember well. I played a few times with a DM that was awesome at the story/policitcs aspects and that was something completely different than when we played with my usual group. Also in my other game we actually played human vampire hunters, we died a lot :)
posted by WaterAndPixels at 4:42 AM on October 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Still one of my favorites RPGs, simple and streamlined rules, everybody knows the universe, awesome book. We played it till the prequels were released and sucked all our love of StarWars for a bit. Crowning achievement: shot down a AT-AT with a blaster because I rolled 6 or 7 sixes in a row on the wild dice. The force was with me that day.
Our Star Wars game looked more like Rogue One (minus big events like the rebel fleet attack) than the actual movies but they were so fun (and jedi less, jedis ruin everything).
White Wolf was *theoretically* all about story and character - going so far as to calling the table leader a "storyteller" - but in practice I didn't see it play out that way ever, no matter what part of the country I ended up playing it in. They were still very heavily attached to dice-pools and crunchy, intricate rulesets.
Both the players & DM had to be on board, you can do that style of play with any system but the Vampire books were trying hard to steer you into it if I remember well. I played a few times with a DM that was awesome at the story/policitcs aspects and that was something completely different than when we played with my usual group. Also in my other game we actually played human vampire hunters, we died a lot :)
posted by WaterAndPixels at 4:42 AM on October 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sexually charged model UN
*adds to list of sockpuppet names*
In an attack of acute nostalgia, I ordered the reprint that's been done of Monsters! Monsters! (where you roleplay as dungeon creatures taking revenge on human settlements, and which my friends and I loved when we were 12 or 13 because it allowed us to vent our repressed desires for violence and, well, enough said). It was fun browsing through it, but I don't know if it would be really all that to play it again.
posted by thelonius at 6:00 AM on October 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
*adds to list of sockpuppet names*
In an attack of acute nostalgia, I ordered the reprint that's been done of Monsters! Monsters! (where you roleplay as dungeon creatures taking revenge on human settlements, and which my friends and I loved when we were 12 or 13 because it allowed us to vent our repressed desires for violence and, well, enough said). It was fun browsing through it, but I don't know if it would be really all that to play it again.
posted by thelonius at 6:00 AM on October 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Never mind White Wolf, story and character started in 1976:
Bunnies & Burrows
posted by lefty lucky cat at 6:58 AM on October 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
Bunnies & Burrows
posted by lefty lucky cat at 6:58 AM on October 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
GuyZero: "so I take it you never played a Dragonlance module?"
That was the first thing that leapt to mind, actually. Not THE first railroading, but where it really started taking off.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:30 AM on October 27, 2017
That was the first thing that leapt to mind, actually. Not THE first railroading, but where it really started taking off.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:30 AM on October 27, 2017
Got more details about that? What changed? Super interested in this.
I've gotten back into 5e D&D recently after about a 10 year break from roleplaying. Even then I had not played D&D for 25 years. I stopped before 3rd became a thing. Third, in fact completely turned my group off and we went a long way into the simulationist and dramatist ends of the gaming spectrum, about as far from the gamist pole as we could (Though we never LARPed).
Seeing 5th now is fascinating. It's obviously evolved quite a long way from the 1st and 2nd AD&D I played in uni.
First, and foremost, is how many of the things we used to have to wing and improvise now have obviously well-tested simple rules: not just say environmental exposure, but stuff like how to run a chase in a dramatic way, how to have players help each other, how to rate difficulties and deal with on-going challenges. How slick and well-thought out this all is in the present PHB and DMG is really impressive. The 5e DMG, in particular, is an amazing summary of decades of DM lessons-learned in the mechanics and strategies of running an engaging game. I sure wish I'd had this as a teenager.
The other message very strongly embedded in the system now is that there's a bunch of ways to do anything. There's a standard way, usually one written in the main text, perhaps a few variants, then some options, and even then the rules say that homebrew additions are totaly at the discretion of the group as well. The old TSR could get quite sniffy at times about "official" rules and homebrew. There's still a fair bit of discussion about rules as written (RAW) and rules as intended (RAI), but it's nowhere near as acrimonious to say, "well, we homebrew that this way" as it could be in the 80s and 90s. Table rulings and the like, now having official sanction, are far more a mainstream part of the hobby than they used to be. D&D used to feel like a straitjacket to run, and that resulted in a lot of people fleeing to less rigid systems all through the 90s. D&D 5e now, however, feels like a well-fitted and comfy hoodie, that has all kinds of flexibility and room for your own iron-on patches.
But the last, and most amazing thing really is the community that's grown up and and how incredibly supportive and inclusive it is. WoTC have a lot to do with this. TSR certainly did not have it as well figured out, how to support new players, how to support individuals that are isolated from groups, how to make everyone feel that they are included and welcome, not just spotty 12-yearold boys who go to majority white middleschools. There's groups playing on many platforms of all kinds of sexes, gender, ethnicities and skin colours; most everyone has a rolemodel to look to and say, "see, I belong here". There are people making really good "how to run a game" videos and podcasts, there are extremely proficient and high quality game sessions that both DMs and players can model from. And, as I've said above, I think technology and 5e have really come together at the right time for 5e to bloom.
In short, I think table-top rpg gaming is in the best place it's ever been right now. And 5e is the best version of D&D we've ever had.
posted by bonehead at 11:30 AM on October 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've gotten back into 5e D&D recently after about a 10 year break from roleplaying. Even then I had not played D&D for 25 years. I stopped before 3rd became a thing. Third, in fact completely turned my group off and we went a long way into the simulationist and dramatist ends of the gaming spectrum, about as far from the gamist pole as we could (Though we never LARPed).
Seeing 5th now is fascinating. It's obviously evolved quite a long way from the 1st and 2nd AD&D I played in uni.
First, and foremost, is how many of the things we used to have to wing and improvise now have obviously well-tested simple rules: not just say environmental exposure, but stuff like how to run a chase in a dramatic way, how to have players help each other, how to rate difficulties and deal with on-going challenges. How slick and well-thought out this all is in the present PHB and DMG is really impressive. The 5e DMG, in particular, is an amazing summary of decades of DM lessons-learned in the mechanics and strategies of running an engaging game. I sure wish I'd had this as a teenager.
The other message very strongly embedded in the system now is that there's a bunch of ways to do anything. There's a standard way, usually one written in the main text, perhaps a few variants, then some options, and even then the rules say that homebrew additions are totaly at the discretion of the group as well. The old TSR could get quite sniffy at times about "official" rules and homebrew. There's still a fair bit of discussion about rules as written (RAW) and rules as intended (RAI), but it's nowhere near as acrimonious to say, "well, we homebrew that this way" as it could be in the 80s and 90s. Table rulings and the like, now having official sanction, are far more a mainstream part of the hobby than they used to be. D&D used to feel like a straitjacket to run, and that resulted in a lot of people fleeing to less rigid systems all through the 90s. D&D 5e now, however, feels like a well-fitted and comfy hoodie, that has all kinds of flexibility and room for your own iron-on patches.
But the last, and most amazing thing really is the community that's grown up and and how incredibly supportive and inclusive it is. WoTC have a lot to do with this. TSR certainly did not have it as well figured out, how to support new players, how to support individuals that are isolated from groups, how to make everyone feel that they are included and welcome, not just spotty 12-yearold boys who go to majority white middleschools. There's groups playing on many platforms of all kinds of sexes, gender, ethnicities and skin colours; most everyone has a rolemodel to look to and say, "see, I belong here". There are people making really good "how to run a game" videos and podcasts, there are extremely proficient and high quality game sessions that both DMs and players can model from. And, as I've said above, I think technology and 5e have really come together at the right time for 5e to bloom.
In short, I think table-top rpg gaming is in the best place it's ever been right now. And 5e is the best version of D&D we've ever had.
posted by bonehead at 11:30 AM on October 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Traveller, Tekumel (empire of the petal throne) and Glorantha (runequest) all predate the 80s as major, well developed rpg settings.
posted by bonehead at 11:36 AM on October 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 11:36 AM on October 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
Tekumel I didn't go into because despite my fascination with the setting, I've never played it. Runequest I didn't go into because of the shitty sexism in the game my partner was recently in. Glorantha is notable for spawning two completely incompatible game systems, and a daughter system (Call of Cthulhu) which is far more popular than the original game.
Heroquest Glorantha was a nice generic trait system where theoretically anything could be given a number value and used in a conflict: Priest of Humakt, My Artifact Wine Jug, I Hate Lunars, etc.. Pity the writers couldn't write a coherent and usable Gabe if someone held a gun to their head. Over the Edge did it earlier and better, and Risus did it simpler.
Risus is still probably the standout in incredibly simple, well thought-out games. It's also free.
posted by happyroach at 12:19 PM on October 27, 2017
Heroquest Glorantha was a nice generic trait system where theoretically anything could be given a number value and used in a conflict: Priest of Humakt, My Artifact Wine Jug, I Hate Lunars, etc.. Pity the writers couldn't write a coherent and usable Gabe if someone held a gun to their head. Over the Edge did it earlier and better, and Risus did it simpler.
Risus is still probably the standout in incredibly simple, well thought-out games. It's also free.
posted by happyroach at 12:19 PM on October 27, 2017
In the mid 80s, I played in a D&D campaign that started as a Tekumel game, apparently from before it was even a published system. It's remarkable how much history can build up in a decade+ of a game. Old player characters were now powerful NPCs, the organizations they had built now defined life for new generations of PCs and so on. Wonder what the games that have been running 35 years look like.
posted by tavella at 12:36 PM on October 27, 2017
posted by tavella at 12:36 PM on October 27, 2017
I think MMORPG's ate a lot of the time that people used to put into D&D, for a while, and now people are coming back to tabletop for RPG rather than grinding and gold farming. My impression is that popularity also increased as we developed tools for people in different places playing - skype, discord, etc. I haven't looked at 5e but I keep hearing good things about it. And WoTC has certainly been marketing it and supporting it well.
I'm sure that people getting their geek on with youtube things like Critical Role may also have helped amp up interest among players who hadn't played in forever. (my wife is currently binging the last year or so of Critical Role so I'm getting a pretty steady diet of Vox Machina at home and it's not doing anything to *reduce* my urge to start tabletop rpg-ing again.)
posted by rmd1023 at 1:50 PM on October 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm sure that people getting their geek on with youtube things like Critical Role may also have helped amp up interest among players who hadn't played in forever. (my wife is currently binging the last year or so of Critical Role so I'm getting a pretty steady diet of Vox Machina at home and it's not doing anything to *reduce* my urge to start tabletop rpg-ing again.)
posted by rmd1023 at 1:50 PM on October 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
Bonehead write WoTC and ask them for a commission, I'm buying the books.
Now I need to find people and free time.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:46 PM on October 27, 2017
Now I need to find people and free time.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:46 PM on October 27, 2017
happyroach, did you ever play Ghostbusters? What was the experience like?
Short, drunken, and chaotic. The peril of pick-up Con games. I do remember thinking " Hey, this is like Star Wars or Teenager's From Space!"
White Wolf was *theoretically* all about story and character - going so far as to calling the table leader a "storyteller" - but in practice I didn't see it play out that way ever, no matter what part of the country I ended up playing it in..
Oh Vampire, that wonderfully incoherent game where the fluff didn't match the rules. A perfect example of the " If the rules get in the way of the story, discard them" principle. It's no coincidence that it came out the same year as Amber Diceless Roleplaying, which took that idea to it's logical extreme. It's also no wonder Ron Edwards had a screaming fit over it and created the Forge.
To Ron Edwards' mind, an rpg should be focused- it should be good at ONE thing. And VtM was frankly lousy for depicting the personal horror of a slow loss of humanity. But I think that one thing the critics of the VtM system missed is its incoherence was its strength: it could be used for any number of styles of campaigns- and I thought it was really suited for no-hold barred politics. Vampire also attracted a new demographic to rpging, especially women. And that only increased when the LARP rules came out. In my area LARPing is still one of the major attractions at rpg conventions.
And then there's Edwards and the Forge. Which had some really good ideas come out of it, and the really bewildering bad concept of GNS.That's worth a FPP on it's own, but AFAICT, its philosophy boiled down into two things:
Again, I could do an FPP post about the indie rpg movement. But bottom line, I think D&D 5th edition in spite of itself is informed by some Forge and indie game elements, especially when it comes to streamlining the game experience and focusing on the “important bits”. And I still can't get behind the OSR movement- the whole “Rulings not rules” idea seems like a deliberate reaction to the “systems matter” philosophy and everything that's happened in the last 25 years. And then when you add in some of the people associated with the OSR movement, the whole thing comes off as rather reactionary.
posted by happyroach at 12:29 AM on October 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
Short, drunken, and chaotic. The peril of pick-up Con games. I do remember thinking " Hey, this is like Star Wars or Teenager's From Space!"
White Wolf was *theoretically* all about story and character - going so far as to calling the table leader a "storyteller" - but in practice I didn't see it play out that way ever, no matter what part of the country I ended up playing it in..
Oh Vampire, that wonderfully incoherent game where the fluff didn't match the rules. A perfect example of the " If the rules get in the way of the story, discard them" principle. It's no coincidence that it came out the same year as Amber Diceless Roleplaying, which took that idea to it's logical extreme. It's also no wonder Ron Edwards had a screaming fit over it and created the Forge.
To Ron Edwards' mind, an rpg should be focused- it should be good at ONE thing. And VtM was frankly lousy for depicting the personal horror of a slow loss of humanity. But I think that one thing the critics of the VtM system missed is its incoherence was its strength: it could be used for any number of styles of campaigns- and I thought it was really suited for no-hold barred politics. Vampire also attracted a new demographic to rpging, especially women. And that only increased when the LARP rules came out. In my area LARPing is still one of the major attractions at rpg conventions.
And then there's Edwards and the Forge. Which had some really good ideas come out of it, and the really bewildering bad concept of GNS.That's worth a FPP on it's own, but AFAICT, its philosophy boiled down into two things:
1. Rules matterA lot of it was a reaction not just to Vampire, but to all the games that had design elements that didn't fit the supposed theme of the game. Like a game supposedly about interstellar exploration having pages upon pages of descriptions of rocket launchers. Edwards may have missed the point of Vampire, but the Forge did have a point about game design in general, and the two ideas listed above strongly influenced a lot of the indie scene, and then 4th Edition D&D. That was the edition that had a laser-like focus on what the desgners thought the game should be about. And the grognards hated it.
2. A game system should be about ONE thing, and the rules should reinforces that single game concept. (this rule was never really stated as such, but it really was the design goal for a lot of games that came out of the Forge)
Again, I could do an FPP post about the indie rpg movement. But bottom line, I think D&D 5th edition in spite of itself is informed by some Forge and indie game elements, especially when it comes to streamlining the game experience and focusing on the “important bits”. And I still can't get behind the OSR movement- the whole “Rulings not rules” idea seems like a deliberate reaction to the “systems matter” philosophy and everything that's happened in the last 25 years. And then when you add in some of the people associated with the OSR movement, the whole thing comes off as rather reactionary.
posted by happyroach at 12:29 AM on October 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
Someone posted a bunch of pictures of old D&D stuff. My favorite is a drawing of what appears to be a swarm of spiders summoned to fight a mind flayer.
posted by exogenous at 8:22 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by exogenous at 8:22 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's Erol Otus, right there.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 8:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
For those interested, there are Erol Otus and David A. Trampier facebook fan groups.
posted by fings at 11:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by fings at 11:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
A game system should be about ONE thing, and the rules should reinforces that single game concept.
I think this can be an OK way to look at game design, but for me personally I think a better way is this:
Whatever your game is about, that area of the rules defines the maximum complexity for your game.
For example: if your game is all about political wrangling in a medieval court, it's fine if you want to also include enough rules to allow a character to duel someone to the death. However, if the rules for how to win over the King in a petition comprise 1 page of text, and the rules for how to swing a sword comprise 5 pages of text, you've fucked up. You've allowed an ancillary part of the game to become a disproportionate burden on the players (and the system).
Hilariously, a lot of games about fighting still fuck this up with fighting because of the achilles heel of fighting system designers everywhere: grappling. When you've got a ruleset that allows for all of the other combat choices in your combat-heavy game to be resolved as "roll a die, compare to a target number, get result" but then "I want to attack this person ... without weapons!" becomes a 5 step flowchart, you have completely lost the plot.
posted by tocts at 6:20 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think this can be an OK way to look at game design, but for me personally I think a better way is this:
Whatever your game is about, that area of the rules defines the maximum complexity for your game.
For example: if your game is all about political wrangling in a medieval court, it's fine if you want to also include enough rules to allow a character to duel someone to the death. However, if the rules for how to win over the King in a petition comprise 1 page of text, and the rules for how to swing a sword comprise 5 pages of text, you've fucked up. You've allowed an ancillary part of the game to become a disproportionate burden on the players (and the system).
Hilariously, a lot of games about fighting still fuck this up with fighting because of the achilles heel of fighting system designers everywhere: grappling. When you've got a ruleset that allows for all of the other combat choices in your combat-heavy game to be resolved as "roll a die, compare to a target number, get result" but then "I want to attack this person ... without weapons!" becomes a 5 step flowchart, you have completely lost the plot.
posted by tocts at 6:20 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
"I want to attack this person ... without weapons!" becomes a 5 step flowchart, you have completely lost the plot.
You've put your finger on one of the major problems with earlier D&D games include 3 and 3.5. It had this sytem which suddenly became hideously complex, full of faqs and ex partie clarifications whenever someone said, "I tackle the guy". One of the things 5e gets right is that this is pretty seamless. There are a couple of possible outcomes which change status (to grappled, if you tackle or prone and knocked back a few feet, if you shove) as the result of a single roll, the same one you use to hit with your weapon attack. And it works well, provides a couple of nice options which can be situationally quite useful.
I've seen a number of occasions in 5e play where other players and even DMs remind people choosing what to do that grappling is an option, because it's simple enough and yet meaningful---the hallmarks of good design.
posted by bonehead at 9:20 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
You've put your finger on one of the major problems with earlier D&D games include 3 and 3.5. It had this sytem which suddenly became hideously complex, full of faqs and ex partie clarifications whenever someone said, "I tackle the guy". One of the things 5e gets right is that this is pretty seamless. There are a couple of possible outcomes which change status (to grappled, if you tackle or prone and knocked back a few feet, if you shove) as the result of a single roll, the same one you use to hit with your weapon attack. And it works well, provides a couple of nice options which can be situationally quite useful.
I've seen a number of occasions in 5e play where other players and even DMs remind people choosing what to do that grappling is an option, because it's simple enough and yet meaningful---the hallmarks of good design.
posted by bonehead at 9:20 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Another example is the non-lethal/subduing damage nonsense of earlier editions. "What happens if we have a fist fight?" or "we just want to knock him out, not kill him". In 5e, it's just a simple choice on the final blow: kill or subdue. Previously, there were all kinds of complicated subduing damage vs lethal damage totals. Again, an example of design changes in the modern game which streamline, reduce the number of rules and yet still fit perfectly well in the game context. Not that 5e is perfect, but it's done away with so many of the screwball edge cases.
posted by bonehead at 9:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 9:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
It had this sytem which suddenly became hideously complex, full of faqs and ex partie clarifications whenever someone said, "I tackle the guy".
Oh man, if you want some seriously apex complexity explosion, look at the rules in Mutants & Masterminds for throwing stuff.
I honestly have a soft spot for the system, though unfortunately the character building is way more interesting than the game itself (which tends to revolve around some really simple d20 mechanics). However, in our first campaign we had a person build a really powerful telekinetic, and in the first game they decided to hurl a really large object into a crowded room and it derailed us for like 90 minutes to figure out how to adjudicate what happened. Even once we had done this, every time they chose to throw an enormous object into a situation we had a similar 30-60 minute resolution phase to figure out what the fuck was going on.
The player in question ended up retiring the character because it was so disruptive. Meanwhile, a character built as a simulacrum of Superman mostly just rolled one die once in a while, and their turn ended in about 45 seconds.
posted by tocts at 10:01 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh man, if you want some seriously apex complexity explosion, look at the rules in Mutants & Masterminds for throwing stuff.
I honestly have a soft spot for the system, though unfortunately the character building is way more interesting than the game itself (which tends to revolve around some really simple d20 mechanics). However, in our first campaign we had a person build a really powerful telekinetic, and in the first game they decided to hurl a really large object into a crowded room and it derailed us for like 90 minutes to figure out how to adjudicate what happened. Even once we had done this, every time they chose to throw an enormous object into a situation we had a similar 30-60 minute resolution phase to figure out what the fuck was going on.
The player in question ended up retiring the character because it was so disruptive. Meanwhile, a character built as a simulacrum of Superman mostly just rolled one die once in a while, and their turn ended in about 45 seconds.
posted by tocts at 10:01 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh man, if you want some seriously apex complexity explosion, look at the rules in Mutants & Masterminds for throwing stuff.
I'll see and raise you the "catch or bobble" section in Space Opera. Multiple pages of tiny type, modifiers and charts to see what happens when you try to catch a thrown object, including IIRC, the first use of a scatter chart in an RPG. It would have been suitable for a detailed football RPG, but for a Space Opera? Even as a 15 year-old I was boggled.
posted by happyroach at 1:53 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'll see and raise you the "catch or bobble" section in Space Opera. Multiple pages of tiny type, modifiers and charts to see what happens when you try to catch a thrown object, including IIRC, the first use of a scatter chart in an RPG. It would have been suitable for a detailed football RPG, but for a Space Opera? Even as a 15 year-old I was boggled.
posted by happyroach at 1:53 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Character creation in Chivalry and Sorcery. As the link notes, character creation was an accounting exercise "that could take several hours". Yes, my friends and I actually played this as teenagers a few times. Combat wasn't a whole lot better either.
posted by bonehead at 2:22 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 2:22 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'll see and raise you the "catch or bobble" section in Space Opera.
As a poor naive teenager who bought Space Opera not knowing any better, it was a bad game, badly edited, written by someone who had logorrhea and loved tables of useless data. It was unplayable.
posted by GuyZero at 3:05 PM on November 1, 2017
As a poor naive teenager who bought Space Opera not knowing any better, it was a bad game, badly edited, written by someone who had logorrhea and loved tables of useless data. It was unplayable.
posted by GuyZero at 3:05 PM on November 1, 2017
For what it's worth, this post spawning one or more games is not outside the realm of possibility.
posted by absalom at 8:25 PM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by absalom at 8:25 PM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Dungeons & Dragons Helped Me Slay Personal Demons: The game revived by 'Stranger Things' and 80s nostalgia enabled me to tackle mental health issues and make new friends as an adult.
Via.
posted by homunculus at 6:28 PM on November 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Via.
posted by homunculus at 6:28 PM on November 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
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Described there is not my dream life, but it might be an acceptable substitute.
posted by JHarris at 8:29 PM on October 24, 2017 [23 favorites]