Is that you dear?
October 25, 2017 7:58 AM Subscribe
The just announced Amazon Key will let delivery people go into your house to deliver packages for you.
The service relies on a Amazon’s new Cloud Cam and compatible smart lock. The camera is the hub, connected to the internet via your home Wi-Fi. The camera talks to the lock over Zigbee, a wireless protocol utilized by many smart home devices.
When a courier arrives with a package for in-home delivery, they scan the barcode, sending a request to Amazon’s cloud. If everything checks out, the cloud grants permission by sending a message back to the camera, which starts recording. The courier then gets a prompt on their app, swipes the screen, and voilà, your door unlocks. They drop off the package, relock the door with another swipe, and are on their way. The customer will get a notification that their delivery has arrived, along with a short video showing the drop-off to confirm everything was done properly.
Not enough nopes in the world, and not because I'm worried about theft or breakage by a courier.
posted by Frowner at 8:00 AM on October 25, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:00 AM on October 25, 2017 [23 favorites]
Yeeeeah....no.
posted by Kitteh at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
maybe for pizza delivery
posted by entropicamericana at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
I'm pretty sure the International Union of Skittish Dogs is going to have some issues with this.
posted by furnace.heart at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [180 favorites]
posted by furnace.heart at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [180 favorites]
On one hand, I find the relentless march of Amazon into our homes to be kind of creepy. On the other, deliveries are tricky for us because deliveries to our house sometimes go missing--ordering something from Amazon entails a significant risk that the item will be stolen.
So finally, we've found that balance between instinctive dislike and "oooo convenience" that will get me on board with our Amazon overlords.
I also think this is less creepy than Alexa, so there's also that.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
So finally, we've found that balance between instinctive dislike and "oooo convenience" that will get me on board with our Amazon overlords.
I also think this is less creepy than Alexa, so there's also that.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
And someone behind that Amazon courier with a weapon now gained access to your house. Great. My mind is spinning with all the potential crime available with this system.
posted by agregoli at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Wait, this isn't an early April fools joke?
posted by AFABulous at 8:04 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 8:04 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Internet of Shit has the only correct response.
posted by jedicus at 8:04 AM on October 25, 2017 [41 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 8:04 AM on October 25, 2017 [41 favorites]
And someone behind that Amazon courier with a weapon now gained access to your house.
Doesn't even need to be the courier themselves. They pay for shit, and people with few options work for Amazon at the delivery level. So they're pretty likely, in my view, to be the target for bribes and theft of their documentation by other burglars.
posted by Miko at 8:05 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Doesn't even need to be the courier themselves. They pay for shit, and people with few options work for Amazon at the delivery level. So they're pretty likely, in my view, to be the target for bribes and theft of their documentation by other burglars.
posted by Miko at 8:05 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
My mind is spinning with all the potential crime available with this system.
After this is inevitably cracked: Ransomware attack that threatens to sell access to your house (with the camera disabled) along with a handy list of times when no one is home.
posted by jedicus at 8:06 AM on October 25, 2017 [24 favorites]
After this is inevitably cracked: Ransomware attack that threatens to sell access to your house (with the camera disabled) along with a handy list of times when no one is home.
posted by jedicus at 8:06 AM on October 25, 2017 [24 favorites]
Amazon locker is pretty cool, though. If you don't mind hastening the death of retail, that is.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:07 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 8:07 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
And someone behind that Amazon courier with a weapon now gained access to your house. Great
Honestly, I think this is just paranoia driven by dislike of the idea. Could it happen? It's possible. Is it likely? No, and there are much more likely ways for someone to break in if they want to. Like busting in a door--or hell, waiting for you to show up, since that's more likely than a courier.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:08 AM on October 25, 2017 [45 favorites]
Honestly, I think this is just paranoia driven by dislike of the idea. Could it happen? It's possible. Is it likely? No, and there are much more likely ways for someone to break in if they want to. Like busting in a door--or hell, waiting for you to show up, since that's more likely than a courier.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:08 AM on October 25, 2017 [45 favorites]
Honestly, I would use this, because my building has a locked lobby that only the USPS can access. Anything delivered by Amazon, UPS, FedEx etc just goes back to their facility after a couple of attempts and I have to go pick it up. So if I need something, I just go to the damn store instead of ordering online.
My friend lives on the same busy street and has a door at the bottom of the stairs that opens to the outside, and one at the top that opens to her apartment. They just leave her shit on the street and half of it gets stolen. So there are some use cases that are sensible and safe.
posted by AFABulous at 8:11 AM on October 25, 2017 [17 favorites]
My friend lives on the same busy street and has a door at the bottom of the stairs that opens to the outside, and one at the top that opens to her apartment. They just leave her shit on the street and half of it gets stolen. So there are some use cases that are sensible and safe.
posted by AFABulous at 8:11 AM on October 25, 2017 [17 favorites]
Amazon just loves you so much it wants to be with you always. Why won’t you let Amazon into your home?
posted by The Whelk at 8:12 AM on October 25, 2017 [54 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:12 AM on October 25, 2017 [54 favorites]
The article doesn't address this, but I assume Amazon would cover any damage or loss caused by this service. The "what if the courier lets someone else in/is forced to let someone else in" scenarios don't really make sense, since they're being recorded at all times.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:14 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 8:14 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't even want them to have a device that constantly listens to everything I say in my house.
posted by Splunge at 8:14 AM on October 25, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by Splunge at 8:14 AM on October 25, 2017 [14 favorites]
They've been calling from inside the house for quite a while already.
posted by Obscure Reference at 8:14 AM on October 25, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 8:14 AM on October 25, 2017 [15 favorites]
I don't even give plumbers and electricians I trust the keys to my place because cats. If you have the keys to my place, it's because you know my cats.
Heck, even I have managed to (temporarily, accidentally) shut a sneaky cat outside more than once. This? Heck no.
posted by fraula at 8:14 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
Heck, even I have managed to (temporarily, accidentally) shut a sneaky cat outside more than once. This? Heck no.
posted by fraula at 8:14 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
Way to make the USPS feel bad, people. You never invited them inside. They had to put your shit in the mailbox.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:17 AM on October 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 8:17 AM on October 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
I know this wouldn't work in every case, but it seems like it would be way cheaper, (but, yeah, far less "THE FUTURE") just to install a home version of an amazon locker on the side of your house, or by your garbage can, or just a huge, heavy lockable garbage can.
I've been getting more and more deliveries from amazon's proprietary delivery service (in lieu of USPS and UPS), and I wouldn't trust half them further than I could throw them. They're in a hard spot, and certainly participating in the gig economy, which sucks for all sorts of reasons. But given how most companies that are contracting out this kind of labor are failing miserably at doing background checks, I don't see this as a viable option at all.
I can't wait untilWeyland-Yutani Amazon gets into the housing market. You just pay your Prime Mortgage with a dash button. They will deliver your packages to your house, carefully unboxing them and disposing of the (insanely large, mostly empty) box and packing materials for you. Amazon Delivery Part-time-ners will even leave a mint on your pillow. They're under contract to not use the bathroom or raid your medicine cabinet. Don't worry about your pets; every Amazon Delivery Part-time-ner has a standard issue SleepUmUp-NOW tranquilizer gun.
posted by furnace.heart at 8:19 AM on October 25, 2017 [26 favorites]
I've been getting more and more deliveries from amazon's proprietary delivery service (in lieu of USPS and UPS), and I wouldn't trust half them further than I could throw them. They're in a hard spot, and certainly participating in the gig economy, which sucks for all sorts of reasons. But given how most companies that are contracting out this kind of labor are failing miserably at doing background checks, I don't see this as a viable option at all.
I can't wait until
posted by furnace.heart at 8:19 AM on October 25, 2017 [26 favorites]
The big question is how will Amazon respond when one of their couriers does do something inappropriate. Doesn't even have to be theft - it could be letting your dog out or just tossing your fragile package into the hall.
A lot of people already have home security cameras. Youtube is full of videos of UPS and Fedex drivers doing everything from throwing boxes over fences and gates to something as simple as lying about ringing the doorbell. But as that done anything to affect those delivery companies culture of not giving a single shit about their individual customers? Not that I can tell.
posted by thecjm at 8:19 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
A lot of people already have home security cameras. Youtube is full of videos of UPS and Fedex drivers doing everything from throwing boxes over fences and gates to something as simple as lying about ringing the doorbell. But as that done anything to affect those delivery companies culture of not giving a single shit about their individual customers? Not that I can tell.
posted by thecjm at 8:19 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
it's just the continued march of neoliberal capitalism in its quest to break down all social relations that aren't based on exchange value and let the lowest bidder complete strangers invade your most intimate spaces to bring you more consumer crap
posted by indubitable at 8:20 AM on October 25, 2017 [55 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 8:20 AM on October 25, 2017 [55 favorites]
They should make their corporate slogan "Amazon: What Could Possibly Go Wrong?"
posted by Grangousier at 8:22 AM on October 25, 2017 [30 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 8:22 AM on October 25, 2017 [30 favorites]
I can see the risks in this, but honestly, I would absolutely pay for this. If I could do this for every courier, I would.
I'm moderately disabled, and one of the ways I use home delivery of things is to minimize having to do all the lifting and carrying in shops, which means that I not infrequently get twenty-pound bags of cat litter, or boxes of groceries, or whatever. Having the ability to put out a bench or something with a leave parcels here sign and sparing myself from scooping them up off the ground would be amazing. Even when I'm home, being able to let someone in without having to run for the bell would be fantastic. I get the people who're on team stranger danger with this, but I have to admit that I'd take the slightly increased risk in exchange for what would to me be a huge benefit.
posted by mishafletch at 8:22 AM on October 25, 2017 [35 favorites]
I'm moderately disabled, and one of the ways I use home delivery of things is to minimize having to do all the lifting and carrying in shops, which means that I not infrequently get twenty-pound bags of cat litter, or boxes of groceries, or whatever. Having the ability to put out a bench or something with a leave parcels here sign and sparing myself from scooping them up off the ground would be amazing. Even when I'm home, being able to let someone in without having to run for the bell would be fantastic. I get the people who're on team stranger danger with this, but I have to admit that I'd take the slightly increased risk in exchange for what would to me be a huge benefit.
posted by mishafletch at 8:22 AM on October 25, 2017 [35 favorites]
If you live in a city you will have an Amazon pickup storefront soon so this will be pretty unnecessary other than for heavy items.
If you live in a rural area you are already vulnerable to armed people forcing their way into your house in a myriad of ways that are much simpler than hacking/stalking amazon couriers. Like say the old school breaking of windows or doors.
But really if you have space enough just setup a large locker at your house with the same key lock system. No need to let them into your living space. Just use one of those lockable outdoor deck storage boxes around the side/back of your house.
posted by srboisvert at 8:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
If you live in a rural area you are already vulnerable to armed people forcing their way into your house in a myriad of ways that are much simpler than hacking/stalking amazon couriers. Like say the old school breaking of windows or doors.
But really if you have space enough just setup a large locker at your house with the same key lock system. No need to let them into your living space. Just use one of those lockable outdoor deck storage boxes around the side/back of your house.
posted by srboisvert at 8:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Why not a package locker on the porch with the same tech?
Why not little door like the one the dairy delivery people used back in the olden days with the same or similar tech?
Basically something that allows secure package delivery and will fail less spectacularly than seems likely.
Oh, I see. This is the how they think they will convince customers to install their camera.
posted by notyou at 8:28 AM on October 25, 2017 [40 favorites]
Why not little door like the one the dairy delivery people used back in the olden days with the same or similar tech?
Basically something that allows secure package delivery and will fail less spectacularly than seems likely.
Oh, I see. This is the how they think they will convince customers to install their camera.
posted by notyou at 8:28 AM on October 25, 2017 [40 favorites]
The only thing funnier than this thread today was the expression of some morning news anchor persons reaction to this item, not out verbally loud but the eyes were so nooooo.
But as mishafletch suggests (oh I wish I lived down the street to give you a hand) there are some quite rational reasons, along with a certain demo having "personal assistant" envy, the offering could be successful.
posted by sammyo at 8:28 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
But as mishafletch suggests (oh I wish I lived down the street to give you a hand) there are some quite rational reasons, along with a certain demo having "personal assistant" envy, the offering could be successful.
posted by sammyo at 8:28 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Home delivery is sometimes a disability-sparing mechanism for me, too. I can see valid use cases here. (That said, in my case, hell no, because I do not trust my small housepanthers not to run out the door. We're looking at some kind of outdoor package lockbox instead, at some point.)
posted by Stacey at 8:30 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 8:30 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
I've been getting more and more deliveries from amazon's proprietary delivery service (in lieu of USPS and UPS), and I wouldn't trust half them further than I could throw them. They're in a hard spot, and certainly participating in the gig economy, which sucks for all sorts of reasons. But given how most companies that are contracting out this kind of labor are failing miserably at doing background checks, I don't see this as a viable option at all.
I suspect this is actually why Amazon wants to move to this model. I've had issues with Amazon deliveries going missing in ways that looked a lot like carrier theft; when that's happened, Amazon has sent replacement shipments or offered refunds. They must lose a lot of money that way (though I suppose they figure they'd lose more if they didn't offer replacements). This obviates the need for background checks, even, and will reduce lost shipment claims: Amazon will just play back the tape and see if the delivery was made or not. I imagine that once this service gets off the ground, Amazon will dial back their lost-and-stolen-package compensation, to force people into using this service.
posted by halation at 8:32 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
I suspect this is actually why Amazon wants to move to this model. I've had issues with Amazon deliveries going missing in ways that looked a lot like carrier theft; when that's happened, Amazon has sent replacement shipments or offered refunds. They must lose a lot of money that way (though I suppose they figure they'd lose more if they didn't offer replacements). This obviates the need for background checks, even, and will reduce lost shipment claims: Amazon will just play back the tape and see if the delivery was made or not. I imagine that once this service gets off the ground, Amazon will dial back their lost-and-stolen-package compensation, to force people into using this service.
posted by halation at 8:32 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
The Amazon delivery folks in my neighborhood frequently don't even get the addresses right. I live in a row of about 6 or so brownstones on my block; to be fair, they all have similar facades, but all of them have the numbers clearly marked on each of the doors. And we still frequently get deliveries to each of our buildings that should have gone to a building one or two doors up the street, and I've made a lot of neighbor visits that way ("Hello, random person in 88 Random Ave., I live in 80 Random Ave. and someone delivered this package to my building instead of yours....")
At least the delivery folk have access to the lobby of the buildings themselves, so the packages are safe inside while they wait to be rerouted to the right building.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
At least the delivery folk have access to the lobby of the buildings themselves, so the packages are safe inside while they wait to be rerouted to the right building.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I suspect this is actually why Amazon wants to move to this model. I've had issues with Amazon deliveries going missing in ways that looked a lot like carrier theft; when that's happened, Amazon has sent replacement shipments or offered refunds. They must lose a lot of money that way
Amazon doesn't lose anything. It's all part of the margin, and customers pay for that, just like they pay for shoplifters.
posted by Slinga at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2017 [19 favorites]
Amazon doesn't lose anything. It's all part of the margin, and customers pay for that, just like they pay for shoplifters.
posted by Slinga at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2017 [19 favorites]
I was so horrified by it when I saw the ad this morning I looked at the pitch. It explicitly says:
Can I receive in-home delivery if I have a pet?
We do not recommend using in-home delivery if your pet can access the front door on delivery day.
which lol ok I'm giving strangers access to my house AND clearing the house for them to wander as they please.
posted by winna at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
Can I receive in-home delivery if I have a pet?
We do not recommend using in-home delivery if your pet can access the front door on delivery day.
which lol ok I'm giving strangers access to my house AND clearing the house for them to wander as they please.
posted by winna at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
The big question is how will Amazon respond when one of their couriers does do something inappropriate.
One assumes that they're lawyered up the wazoo with this and that waiving anywhere from a lot to all of liabilities is part of the price of admission, but you'd think that the chances of uncontrollably bad PR would still make it a dubious proposition. Especially since an Amazon locker, attached to or placed outside a residence, could be rolled in to the price of the service, function sufficiently well in most circumstances, and present less risk to customers and Amazon.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
One assumes that they're lawyered up the wazoo with this and that waiving anywhere from a lot to all of liabilities is part of the price of admission, but you'd think that the chances of uncontrollably bad PR would still make it a dubious proposition. Especially since an Amazon locker, attached to or placed outside a residence, could be rolled in to the price of the service, function sufficiently well in most circumstances, and present less risk to customers and Amazon.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I would absolutely do this with a package locker (hell, even my garage door), but not my house with my dogs inside.
I would pay extra if this meant they could skip the packaging/use those plastic moving boxes for transport and just put my shit in the locker package-free.
I'm currently looking into cheap security cameras just so I can deal with the one courier (I think it's one of my multiple usual UPS couriers) who's been throwing boxes a foot into the yard and driving off.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:37 AM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
I would pay extra if this meant they could skip the packaging/use those plastic moving boxes for transport and just put my shit in the locker package-free.
I'm currently looking into cheap security cameras just so I can deal with the one courier (I think it's one of my multiple usual UPS couriers) who's been throwing boxes a foot into the yard and driving off.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:37 AM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
I would really love to see some data on how they arrived at the conclusion that americans would accept this. I just can't see the adoption rate being above a percentage or two. would that be enough to make it worth the roll-out?
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:37 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:37 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Amazon doesn't lose anything. It's all part of the margin, and customers pay for that
Sure. But if you can trim that cost and hassle off while also getting customers to pay for and install your surveillance tech and further lock down your delivery chain by freezing out couriers who don't use your now-industry-standard delivery tech ...
posted by halation at 8:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Sure. But if you can trim that cost and hassle off while also getting customers to pay for and install your surveillance tech and further lock down your delivery chain by freezing out couriers who don't use your now-industry-standard delivery tech ...
posted by halation at 8:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
No one where I live, in rural Wisconsin, will use this service. Many people lack internet service robust enough to support the technology. Moreover, few people lock their doors, other than gunowners who are irresponsible enough to leave their weapons lying around but responsible enough to worry about them being stolen by imaginary roving gangs of bad guys from Chicago. If it's raining or snowing, or a package looks valuable (e.g., it's from Apple), delivery guys will occasionally open the front door and place the box just inside.
We only lock our doors if we're going out of town, although we have a few extra cars so our place usually looks occupied. Anyway, all of the plumbers, electricians, etc. have keys to people's homes. One time we were away and the HVAC guy called because he'd forgotten his key and wanted to know which neighbor to ask or where to find a spare. But the neighbors were also away and there was no hidden key. He just called around to the various contractors until he found one with plans to make a service call near us. That guy brought him a key.
posted by carmicha at 8:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
We only lock our doors if we're going out of town, although we have a few extra cars so our place usually looks occupied. Anyway, all of the plumbers, electricians, etc. have keys to people's homes. One time we were away and the HVAC guy called because he'd forgotten his key and wanted to know which neighbor to ask or where to find a spare. But the neighbors were also away and there was no hidden key. He just called around to the various contractors until he found one with plans to make a service call near us. That guy brought him a key.
posted by carmicha at 8:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
amazon delivery arrives with my amazon fresh meal kit order
i sit at the table waiting
nude under my leather apron
'stove is over there' i say 'ask me if you need a knife i have them all right here.'
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [38 favorites]
i sit at the table waiting
nude under my leather apron
'stove is over there' i say 'ask me if you need a knife i have them all right here.'
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [38 favorites]
Pretty soon you won't be able to keep them out at all.
posted by Naberius at 8:46 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Naberius at 8:46 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
No. Nope. Nuh-uh. Non. Nyet. Nein. Iie. Negatory, good buddy.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
posted by SansPoint at 8:50 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
posted by SansPoint at 8:50 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Another vote for 'Oh HELL No!'
posted by sexyrobot at 8:51 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 8:51 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wonder if the fact that yesterday for the first time in a while I couldn't get something delivered to my PO Box from amazon and had to use a physical address.
This could also be intended to circumvent all the people who have things delivered final mile through the USPS. I don't think that is an expensive or problematic service but final mile delivery is the annoying complicated part of logistics so maybe that is part of it? But allowing delivery carriers into your house to allow amazon to avoid using the postal system seems like an idea that would not appeal to most people.
If I can't get it delivered to my PO Box any more I'll just have it sent to my work again.
posted by winna at 8:51 AM on October 25, 2017
This could also be intended to circumvent all the people who have things delivered final mile through the USPS. I don't think that is an expensive or problematic service but final mile delivery is the annoying complicated part of logistics so maybe that is part of it? But allowing delivery carriers into your house to allow amazon to avoid using the postal system seems like an idea that would not appeal to most people.
If I can't get it delivered to my PO Box any more I'll just have it sent to my work again.
posted by winna at 8:51 AM on October 25, 2017
The "what if the courier lets someone else in/is forced to let someone else in" scenarios don't really make sense, since they're being recorded at all times.
Er yeah. Sure. Because since the advent of security cameras, crime within range of them has dropped to zero.
Oh wait. No it hasn't. Also ski masks.
posted by Brockles at 8:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
Er yeah. Sure. Because since the advent of security cameras, crime within range of them has dropped to zero.
Oh wait. No it hasn't. Also ski masks.
posted by Brockles at 8:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
Shit, one of my colleagues used to have 50-pound sacks of cat litter stolen, thanks to UPS leaving them on his front doorstep. I bet he would be DELIGHTED if his landlord offered this...
...though, come to think of it, does it work in buildings with a shared lobby? Hmmm, off to RTFA!
posted by wenestvedt at 8:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
...though, come to think of it, does it work in buildings with a shared lobby? Hmmm, off to RTFA!
posted by wenestvedt at 8:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
We get so much amazon and other crap delivered to our house that I have to think my roommate / owner of the house will put in a package locker eventually. We're on a busy pedestrian street and it's so easy to grab packages off our porch. I haven't had anything stolen, but the owner has when he first moved in several years ago.
posted by MillMan at 8:53 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by MillMan at 8:53 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
This sounds terrible. An outdoor locker sounds like a good idea for a lot of people, but this is just dystopian horror fodder.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:55 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 8:55 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
What percentage of people have smart locks to begin with? I was talking to a contractor about changing the locks the other day, and he mentioned them, and up to that point I had encountered one ever. If it hadn't been a couple weeks before the conversation, I probably wouldn't have remembered what he was talking about.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:56 AM on October 25, 2017
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:56 AM on October 25, 2017
This doesn't seem like a bad idea IF you have two doors on your house.
e.g. a "mud room" or enclosed porch equipped with this tech, behind which is a 2nd "dumb lock" exterior security door.
Package delivery people can drop off your stuff, but they can't access anything except that otherwise empty entry room.
I mean sure, on my house this would require a construction project to add an enclosed porch, so it's not for everyone... but it COULD be done.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:01 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
e.g. a "mud room" or enclosed porch equipped with this tech, behind which is a 2nd "dumb lock" exterior security door.
Package delivery people can drop off your stuff, but they can't access anything except that otherwise empty entry room.
I mean sure, on my house this would require a construction project to add an enclosed porch, so it's not for everyone... but it COULD be done.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:01 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
And someone behind that Amazon courier with a weapon now gained access to your house. Great
That's a real concern. We had Amazon packages go missing several times before we switched to Locker. There are clearly people in our neighborhood watching for Amazon deliveries so they can grab them.
It's a big step up the risk ladder to go from there to beating up the courier and robbing the house, but there's a much bigger reward, too.
posted by gurple at 9:01 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
That's a real concern. We had Amazon packages go missing several times before we switched to Locker. There are clearly people in our neighborhood watching for Amazon deliveries so they can grab them.
It's a big step up the risk ladder to go from there to beating up the courier and robbing the house, but there's a much bigger reward, too.
posted by gurple at 9:01 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
They should make their corporate slogan "Amazon: What Could Possibly Go Wrong?"
And make their corporate mascot Bubsy.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:01 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
And make their corporate mascot Bubsy.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:01 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
The customer will get a notification that their delivery has arrived, along with a short video showing the drop-off to confirm everything was done properly
See this is the part I need, not the smart-lock-please-come-in bullshit. I just want them to be able to prove someone knocked on the friggin' door before leaving the note telling me I wasn't home I WAS HOME YOU ASSHOLES I WHEEDLED MY BOSS TO LET ME WORK FROM HOME FOR THIS
posted by solotoro at 9:04 AM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
See this is the part I need, not the smart-lock-please-come-in bullshit. I just want them to be able to prove someone knocked on the friggin' door before leaving the note telling me I wasn't home I WAS HOME YOU ASSHOLES I WHEEDLED MY BOSS TO LET ME WORK FROM HOME FOR THIS
posted by solotoro at 9:04 AM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
In other news, cable repair people gratified to no longer be the only porn cliches.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:05 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 9:05 AM on October 25, 2017 [11 favorites]
Demon Seed 2017
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:10 AM on October 25, 2017
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:10 AM on October 25, 2017
What percentage of people have smart locks to begin with?
People who rent their places on Airbnb are big users of smart locks. You can just give someone a code to enter via an app that only works for a limited amount of time and never physically have to drop off or pick up keys.
posted by Fidel Cashflow at 9:11 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
People who rent their places on Airbnb are big users of smart locks. You can just give someone a code to enter via an app that only works for a limited amount of time and never physically have to drop off or pick up keys.
posted by Fidel Cashflow at 9:11 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is all very interesting to me as a renter. There are numerous people who can unlock my apartment door and they frequently bring strangers/contractors/city officials with them when they do. I get advance notice but no camera unless I set it up. This year I'd say about 10 different people have traipsed through my apartment. So I am a bit blase about what feels like a suburban stranger danger overreaction because I already have a lot of vulnerability.
But package delivery in an apartment building is a complete mess that is only getting worse and worse.
We currently have a delivery room with secure access using an internet-of-shit company called luxur or something dotcom-engrish like that. (We switched this year from a system where building staff would scan each package and put it in the mail room that building residents had key access to and we would get email notice. It was reliable but it took about half a day from a building staffer every day)
The new system is just awful. They expect the delivery person to scan each package individually and do data entry on a tablet for a building with 160 units. Then we get emailed an access code that will let us unlock the door once - you'd better be able to carry your 48 cans of cat food and litter all in one go!
Except what happens is delivery people dump packages outside the security door, in the lobby or on the counter of the mail room and bolt. When they do use the secure locker they scan one package to get access and then just pile all of the packages on the shelf - so no emails get sent to anyone other than the first package and nobody can access the mail room without the building staff - who are on ever constricting hours that would make bankers either blush or go green with envy.
So you have to track your packages and know when they should have arrived. Except of course UPS delivery to our building seems to lie about delivery times on the regular. They will say something has been delivered a day or two before it actually is (I assume they have some sort of contract with penalties they lie to not incur or a delivery person who is taking entire days off and then doubling up the next day or something).
The problem is that all the incentives are misaligned. The delivery person only cares about checking the delivered box for his employer. The dotcom mailroom system only cares about getting paid by the building for providing something sexy sounding. The building management only cares about offloading responsibility cheaply. Nobody but me cares about whether I get the package when it is delivered.
And then comes Christmas when my building's ground floor is almost completely buried under smiling boxes.
posted by srboisvert at 9:20 AM on October 25, 2017 [16 favorites]
But package delivery in an apartment building is a complete mess that is only getting worse and worse.
We currently have a delivery room with secure access using an internet-of-shit company called luxur or something dotcom-engrish like that. (We switched this year from a system where building staff would scan each package and put it in the mail room that building residents had key access to and we would get email notice. It was reliable but it took about half a day from a building staffer every day)
The new system is just awful. They expect the delivery person to scan each package individually and do data entry on a tablet for a building with 160 units. Then we get emailed an access code that will let us unlock the door once - you'd better be able to carry your 48 cans of cat food and litter all in one go!
Except what happens is delivery people dump packages outside the security door, in the lobby or on the counter of the mail room and bolt. When they do use the secure locker they scan one package to get access and then just pile all of the packages on the shelf - so no emails get sent to anyone other than the first package and nobody can access the mail room without the building staff - who are on ever constricting hours that would make bankers either blush or go green with envy.
So you have to track your packages and know when they should have arrived. Except of course UPS delivery to our building seems to lie about delivery times on the regular. They will say something has been delivered a day or two before it actually is (I assume they have some sort of contract with penalties they lie to not incur or a delivery person who is taking entire days off and then doubling up the next day or something).
The problem is that all the incentives are misaligned. The delivery person only cares about checking the delivered box for his employer. The dotcom mailroom system only cares about getting paid by the building for providing something sexy sounding. The building management only cares about offloading responsibility cheaply. Nobody but me cares about whether I get the package when it is delivered.
And then comes Christmas when my building's ground floor is almost completely buried under smiling boxes.
posted by srboisvert at 9:20 AM on October 25, 2017 [16 favorites]
I live in a warehouse complex; my unit is not connected to the main entrance that has the mailboxes, and we've had packages go missing. It'd be interesting to consider this, although not at the current price. (We almost always have someone home. However, video of deliveries would work nicely to confirm that they actually TRIED to deliver.) The FAQ does say it works for apartment complexes, homes behind gates, etc., as long as Amazon can get to the door; you may have to give them an access code.
Other notes:
* Exclusively for Prime members.
* Amazon Key is only available in 37 cities (and surrounding areas) across the US where Amazon Logistics handles the drop-off.
* For $249.99, Amazon will sell you a bundle that includes a smart lock, the connected camera, and free installation.
* The Key app and actual delivery service will become available November 8th.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Other notes:
* Exclusively for Prime members.
* Amazon Key is only available in 37 cities (and surrounding areas) across the US where Amazon Logistics handles the drop-off.
* For $249.99, Amazon will sell you a bundle that includes a smart lock, the connected camera, and free installation.
* The Key app and actual delivery service will become available November 8th.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I had just gotten out of the shower when I heard the front door close. I slunk downstairs still wet and clutching my too-small towel so I could surprise my [wife/husband/SO]. Imagine my shock when I saw a [sexy/hunky/terrifying] delivery person standing there! I felt so [afraid/turned on/conflicted] that I immediately [blushed/reached for an available handgun/let my towel fall to the floor] ...
posted by freecellwizard at 9:24 AM on October 25, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 9:24 AM on October 25, 2017 [15 favorites]
As an apartment dweller, I can't replace my door locks with smart locks, nor would I want to.
1. Your lock, or your Wifi gets compromised, and suddenly any schmuck can get into your home.
2. You have to regularly remove and charge your smart lock. Boy, nothing like removing your home security to plug it in to a USB cable.
3. If you pick the wrong company, and they get acquired or go out of business, your lock might stop working.
To hell with it. Keys aren't hard.
posted by SansPoint at 9:25 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
1. Your lock, or your Wifi gets compromised, and suddenly any schmuck can get into your home.
2. You have to regularly remove and charge your smart lock. Boy, nothing like removing your home security to plug it in to a USB cable.
3. If you pick the wrong company, and they get acquired or go out of business, your lock might stop working.
To hell with it. Keys aren't hard.
posted by SansPoint at 9:25 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
Every tech news site for the last five years: "IOT Devices Are Basically All Completely Unsecured Please Do Not Use Them."
Amazon: "How about you replace the locks in your home with an IOT device??"
posted by FakeFreyja at 9:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [41 favorites]
Amazon: "How about you replace the locks in your home with an IOT device??"
posted by FakeFreyja at 9:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [41 favorites]
Another thing to make me happy about my recent decision to not buy from Amazon unless absolutely necessary (so far, so good).
posted by JanetLand at 9:30 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by JanetLand at 9:30 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I live in the middle of a city. I've come home to find people sleeping and urinating on my front porch (separate incidents, fwiw). If the delivery person is leaving a parcel in front of my door, they might as well just steal it themselves.
So this might interest me, theoretically, except of all the delivery services, Amazon's own has consistently been the most lazy and dishonest. And the way to solve that is absolutely not to grant them unsupervised access to my home.
posted by aubilenon at 9:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
So this might interest me, theoretically, except of all the delivery services, Amazon's own has consistently been the most lazy and dishonest. And the way to solve that is absolutely not to grant them unsupervised access to my home.
posted by aubilenon at 9:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can't wait until ".." Amazon gets into the housing market.
They are there... and fashionably small/mobile/stackable/shippable for our upcoming lifestyle changes after the collapse of traditional "everything"...
posted by jkaczor at 9:36 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
They are there... and fashionably small/mobile/stackable/shippable for our upcoming lifestyle changes after the collapse of traditional "everything"...
posted by jkaczor at 9:36 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
We currently have a delivery room with secure access using an internet-of-shit company called luxur or something dotcom
My building has luxor too, and it works great -- even the contract AMZN delivery guys in the orange visibility vests seem to have figured it out. One possible difference is that our luxor thing is in a publicly accessible part of the building.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:41 AM on October 25, 2017
My building has luxor too, and it works great -- even the contract AMZN delivery guys in the orange visibility vests seem to have figured it out. One possible difference is that our luxor thing is in a publicly accessible part of the building.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:41 AM on October 25, 2017
Your lock, or your Wifi gets compromised, and suddenly any schmuck can get into your home.
have you ever tried a bump key on your current lock?
posted by indubitable at 9:41 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
have you ever tried a bump key on your current lock?
posted by indubitable at 9:41 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
Something is seriously wrong with techbros.
The problem is they always see all the cool things that technology can do, but none of the ways it can fail horribly. Hence why the Internet of Things is a botridden plagueland.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:41 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
The problem is they always see all the cool things that technology can do, but none of the ways it can fail horribly. Hence why the Internet of Things is a botridden plagueland.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:41 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Wasn't there already some widespread "smart lock" outage last year, due to the provider having issues with their hosting back-end (or internet connectivity in general)?
(This might be it - but I think the news I recall, actually had mentioned people being locked out of their homes...)
posted by jkaczor at 9:50 AM on October 25, 2017
(This might be it - but I think the news I recall, actually had mentioned people being locked out of their homes...)
posted by jkaczor at 9:50 AM on October 25, 2017
The "what if the courier lets someone else in/is forced to let someone else in" scenarios don't really make sense, since they're being recorded at all times.
Um, so what? Criminals are on camera everywhere these days, I have plenty of clients caught on camera. Doesn't stop crime.
I am laughing at how casually people are accepting this as a workable idea. Enjoy! Not my house, no way.
posted by agregoli at 9:50 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Um, so what? Criminals are on camera everywhere these days, I have plenty of clients caught on camera. Doesn't stop crime.
I am laughing at how casually people are accepting this as a workable idea. Enjoy! Not my house, no way.
posted by agregoli at 9:50 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Oh, hail naw!
Then again, I live in an apartment building, and the super already (and kindly, since this isn't really his remit) collects the packages people aren't home to receive.
posted by droplet at 9:51 AM on October 25, 2017
Then again, I live in an apartment building, and the super already (and kindly, since this isn't really his remit) collects the packages people aren't home to receive.
posted by droplet at 9:51 AM on October 25, 2017
Once again we are reminded why security professionals refer to "The Internet of Things that should not be on the Internet."
I would not be at all surprised if pretty much every insurer offering home contents cover would consider that installing this voids your policy. Frankly, I'd expect explicit wording to that effect to be included in policy renewals as soon as this starts rolling out.
posted by Major Clanger at 9:55 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I would not be at all surprised if pretty much every insurer offering home contents cover would consider that installing this voids your policy. Frankly, I'd expect explicit wording to that effect to be included in policy renewals as soon as this starts rolling out.
posted by Major Clanger at 9:55 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Your home, for one, welcomes our new corporate overlords.
posted by theora55 at 10:00 AM on October 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 10:00 AM on October 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
deliveries are tricky for us because deliveries to our house sometimes go missing--ordering something from Amazon entails a significant risk that the item will be stolen.
We have this problem as well, but the answer is not to give delivery people access into our homes. The answer is to ensure that delivery people verify someone is home and get a signature.
They could even change their home delivery times to the evenings to accommodate the fact that many people go to work and school, none of which requires fancy-schmantzy-seriously-creepy technology.
posted by Gelatin at 10:04 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
We have this problem as well, but the answer is not to give delivery people access into our homes. The answer is to ensure that delivery people verify someone is home and get a signature.
They could even change their home delivery times to the evenings to accommodate the fact that many people go to work and school, none of which requires fancy-schmantzy-seriously-creepy technology.
posted by Gelatin at 10:04 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
The problem is [techbros] always see all the cool things that technology can do, but none of the ways it can fail horribly.
One of the things that the Luddite in me loved about the Battlestar Galactica reboot was their justification for how the Galactica escaped the initial Cylon takeover - it was an older ship that was about to be decomissioned, so no one bothered hooking it up to the super-integrated all-encompassing cloud-network-thing that linked all the other battlestars in the system. So it never succumbed to that virus the Cylons used to take over everything in the whole system in one fell swoop - becuase it wasn't even on that network, and was able to be all "okay, we're outta here."
Think of the cylons, techbros.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:05 AM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
One of the things that the Luddite in me loved about the Battlestar Galactica reboot was their justification for how the Galactica escaped the initial Cylon takeover - it was an older ship that was about to be decomissioned, so no one bothered hooking it up to the super-integrated all-encompassing cloud-network-thing that linked all the other battlestars in the system. So it never succumbed to that virus the Cylons used to take over everything in the whole system in one fell swoop - becuase it wasn't even on that network, and was able to be all "okay, we're outta here."
Think of the cylons, techbros.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:05 AM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
"I had to shoot them, I thought they were a home invader."
posted by misterpatrick at 10:07 AM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 10:07 AM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
If the show "to catch a thief" taught me anything it's that the only thing stopping a thief from breaking into my house is the number of houses divided by thieves divided by time. There simply aren't enough thieves to rob everyone, but should one want in... they are totally getting in.
posted by French Fry at 10:13 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by French Fry at 10:13 AM on October 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
I would not be at all surprised if pretty much every insurer offering home contents cover would consider that installing this voids your policy. Frankly, I'd expect explicit wording to that effect to be included in policy renewals as soon as this starts rolling out.
I work in IoT and insurance companies are huge fans of this sort of stuff. Not only will they not void your policy, they'll give you discounts.
posted by Fidel Cashflow at 10:22 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I work in IoT and insurance companies are huge fans of this sort of stuff. Not only will they not void your policy, they'll give you discounts.
posted by Fidel Cashflow at 10:22 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
What you really have to worry about in x number of years:
a) Apartment buildings installing it by default. Your new place already has an Amazon Key, and you can't opt out.
b) Once Amazon has enough of a chokehold on delivery, one day they tell everyone, "No Amazon Key, no delivery." Or just the people who live in "bad neighborhoods". (Download the AmazonNeighborhood app for further details.)
Key is just the figurative foot in the door. In a few years, Amazon will sit down on your couch, put its feet on the coffee table and start eating your nachos.
posted by Roentgen at 10:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
a) Apartment buildings installing it by default. Your new place already has an Amazon Key, and you can't opt out.
b) Once Amazon has enough of a chokehold on delivery, one day they tell everyone, "No Amazon Key, no delivery." Or just the people who live in "bad neighborhoods". (Download the AmazonNeighborhood app for further details.)
Key is just the figurative foot in the door. In a few years, Amazon will sit down on your couch, put its feet on the coffee table and start eating your nachos.
posted by Roentgen at 10:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
I am very excited to give Amazon the power to unlock the door to my home
posted by palindromic at 10:27 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by palindromic at 10:27 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Amazon should borrow from U-Haul's historical motto and call this "Adventures in Delivery."
posted by summerstorm at 10:31 AM on October 25, 2017
posted by summerstorm at 10:31 AM on October 25, 2017
This is all very interesting to me as a renter. There are numerous people who can unlock my apartment door and they frequently bring strangers/contractors/city officials with them when they do. I get advance notice but no camera unless I set it up. This year I'd say about 10 different people have traipsed through my apartment. So I am a bit blase about what feels like a suburban stranger danger overreaction because I already have a lot of vulnerability.I am also a renter, but I have the exact opposite reaction. There's already enough of the contractors and so on barging into what is supposed to be my own space -- I hate it. Why the hell would I want to add yet more people to the Privacy Invader list?
posted by inconstant at 10:46 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
We have this problem as well, but the answer is not to give delivery people access into our homes. The answer is to ensure that delivery people verify someone is home and get a signature.
For me, this is equivalent to: "The answer is to wait for your package to be delivered to a pick-up location, then spend an hour getting to and from the pick-up location as soon as you can find the time to go. Hope that you're provided accurate information about when the package is at the pick-up location so you don't do this more than once. Again." This is because I'm usually not at home during delivery hours.
So what is the security trade-off for the convenience of not having to do that?
I've been burgled more than once; one time I interrupted the burglars by coming home early, which was... interesting. I know that if someone wants to break into my home, it's already trivial. Does the Amazon system add vulnerability? Yes, but I don't think it adds that much compared to the real risk that's already there.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:47 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
For me, this is equivalent to: "The answer is to wait for your package to be delivered to a pick-up location, then spend an hour getting to and from the pick-up location as soon as you can find the time to go. Hope that you're provided accurate information about when the package is at the pick-up location so you don't do this more than once. Again." This is because I'm usually not at home during delivery hours.
So what is the security trade-off for the convenience of not having to do that?
I've been burgled more than once; one time I interrupted the burglars by coming home early, which was... interesting. I know that if someone wants to break into my home, it's already trivial. Does the Amazon system add vulnerability? Yes, but I don't think it adds that much compared to the real risk that's already there.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:47 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Hey, look who's here! It's nice to see you again, you look great!
Let Amazon sleep in your bed.
Don't shake your head "no". Let Amazon sleep in your bed. You're not even gonna be there.
Please let Amazon sleep in your bed. Nothing weird's gonna happen. Amazon will sleep in the exact same position as you sleep.
You can trust Amazon. Amazon will even wash the sheets before you come back, how's that? Please?
SWEET MOTHER OF GOD, WHAT IS THE HOLD UP? LET AMAZON SLEEP IN YOUR BED! AMAZON SAYS THEY'LL WASH THE SHEETS!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:51 AM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
Let Amazon sleep in your bed.
Don't shake your head "no". Let Amazon sleep in your bed. You're not even gonna be there.
Please let Amazon sleep in your bed. Nothing weird's gonna happen. Amazon will sleep in the exact same position as you sleep.
You can trust Amazon. Amazon will even wash the sheets before you come back, how's that? Please?
SWEET MOTHER OF GOD, WHAT IS THE HOLD UP? LET AMAZON SLEEP IN YOUR BED! AMAZON SAYS THEY'LL WASH THE SHEETS!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:51 AM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
This is a solution to a problem that was solved an hundred years ago by milk holes. I had one in my house growing up that was built in the 60s.
posted by blue_beetle at 10:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 10:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
I'm sure this will be eagerly taken up by the same people who think it's cool to have an always-on, internet-connected microphone in their homes that sends directly to Amazon, Google and God-knows-who-else.
posted by slkinsey at 10:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 10:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
indubitable: "Your lock, or your Wifi gets compromised, and suddenly any schmuck can get into your home.
have you ever tried a bump key on your current lock?"
My house is "protected" by double front doors built in 1870 equipped with a lock from about 1920. A good shoulder could push in the whole thing. Not to mention the six first floor windows with similar their original Victorian age locks. Fortunately in the ten years we've lived there, no one has tried to get in but if they did, it wouldn't be hard.
posted by octothorpe at 10:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
have you ever tried a bump key on your current lock?"
My house is "protected" by double front doors built in 1870 equipped with a lock from about 1920. A good shoulder could push in the whole thing. Not to mention the six first floor windows with similar their original Victorian age locks. Fortunately in the ten years we've lived there, no one has tried to get in but if they did, it wouldn't be hard.
posted by octothorpe at 10:52 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just the other night I was thinking that if you had told people in the year of our lord 1984 that thirty years hence we would all voluntarily compile up to the minute photos of ourselves and families, our thoughts, habits, purchases, speech, political opinions, charitable donations, travel itineraries and social connections into a set of dossiers accessible to the government and major corporations, people would never, ever have believed that anyone would be so stupid. Make the Stasi work for it at least, people would have said. But now, of course, we do all that all the time, and we look for ways to link all that information closer together and ever more tightly to our individual identities. Shit, if you had said that some huge percentage of Americans would happily be audio-recorded 24/7 by a totally unaccountable corporation, people would have thought you were clinically paranoid.
Amazon is probably right - given another five or ten years, everyone who is not actually a low-wage contract worker will be happy to allow Amazon's Maids-For-Below-Minimum, Homeless Sexworker contractors and various AmaChattel workers into our homes whenever, all to be filmed so that the precariat doesn't get above its station, and to refine upon the advertising routed to us. At least we'll know what kind of work is available to us if we ever fall off the regular employment ladder.
posted by Frowner at 10:54 AM on October 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
Amazon is probably right - given another five or ten years, everyone who is not actually a low-wage contract worker will be happy to allow Amazon's Maids-For-Below-Minimum, Homeless Sexworker contractors and various AmaChattel workers into our homes whenever, all to be filmed so that the precariat doesn't get above its station, and to refine upon the advertising routed to us. At least we'll know what kind of work is available to us if we ever fall off the regular employment ladder.
posted by Frowner at 10:54 AM on October 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
Eh. Maybe? I think pets will be too big a sticking point for that crowd. They don't give a shit about us or their privacy or anything like that, but they love their dogs and cats, and there are way too many ways for this to go wrong on that front.
posted by mordax at 10:59 AM on October 25, 2017
posted by mordax at 10:59 AM on October 25, 2017
Amazon doesn't lose anything. It's all part of the margin, and customers pay for that, just like they pay for shoplifters.They just write it off!
posted by roystgnr at 10:59 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
i already have a doorbell that has a camera for recording purposes, and remote opening capability, which tbh i have no idea how to use. i can for example forward it to my phone and unlock the door from the couch instead of getting up! v exciting.
my landlord 100% installed this system because he was tired of delivery ppl pretending that they'd rung the bell and no one was home and i support this level of petty rage.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:01 AM on October 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
my landlord 100% installed this system because he was tired of delivery ppl pretending that they'd rung the bell and no one was home and i support this level of petty rage.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:01 AM on October 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
This isn't necessary. Just teach your pets how to talk and answer the door. Problem solved.
posted by Fizz at 11:09 AM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 11:09 AM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
I remember how shocked people were at the idea that we would get into a stranger's car to get a ride somewhere. This will work. If I didn't have a cat I'd be fine with it.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:12 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:12 AM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
French Fry: If the show "to catch a thief" taught me anything it's that the only thing stopping a thief from breaking into my house is the number of houses divided by thieves divided by time. There simply aren't enough thieves to rob everyone, but should one want in... they are totally getting in.
A thief is also more likely to go for whichever house is easiest to get in. If you've got an easily bypassed smartlock, that means your thief is more likely to go for your house, and not the guy with the ordinary deadbolt.
posted by SansPoint at 11:13 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
A thief is also more likely to go for whichever house is easiest to get in. If you've got an easily bypassed smartlock, that means your thief is more likely to go for your house, and not the guy with the ordinary deadbolt.
posted by SansPoint at 11:13 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think it's a brilliant idea, but there's absolutely no way I'm subscribing to that.
posted by TrinsicWS at 11:13 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by TrinsicWS at 11:13 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
My main skepticism comes from it using Amazon Logistics. Which I'm sure varies by area, and perhaps it's improved sharply in the year or so since I sent a politely gobsmack-irritated letter at customer service at the string of clownshoes AMZL deliveriers I'd had quite enough of (and they put a note in my account of "try not to ever deliver with AMZL to this customer again" which has worked so far!). But. I can only picture a typical AMZL person getting into your home, tripping over their own feet as they set a package down, careening arms windmilling into the kitchen knocking things off the walls every step of the way, upending the knife block sending all blades arcing into the air to land back in them proceeding to send them scurrying around jackson pollocking blood spatters everywhere, incidentally breaking every faucet in the place clean off sending water fountaining everywhere which is a mixed blessing because it at least contains the fires they'd incidentally set before breaking the door on the way back out and driving their vehicle off a cliff.
posted by Drastic at 11:16 AM on October 25, 2017 [28 favorites]
Well, I certainly wouldn't want the 55 gallon drum of Passion Lubes I ordered sitting out my porch all day.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:18 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:18 AM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
This is a solution to a problem that was solved an hundred years ago by milk holes
how is that a solution? something like that wouldn't require that you purchase and install an insecure spy device in your home, it wouldn't lock you into a specific vendor, and it would probably require installation by a local contractor who would recirculate the money in the local economy. *snort* some solution --tech bros, probably
posted by entropicamericana at 11:18 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
how is that a solution? something like that wouldn't require that you purchase and install an insecure spy device in your home, it wouldn't lock you into a specific vendor, and it would probably require installation by a local contractor who would recirculate the money in the local economy. *snort* some solution --tech bros, probably
posted by entropicamericana at 11:18 AM on October 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
I don't really have a problem with my current delivery drop-off set up, but what really works for me is having my apartment buzzer go to my cell phone. That way I can buzz in delivery people no matter where I am, but if someone claims to have tried the buzzer I can always check to see if I really missed the call. (Also, I'll never be unlocked from the building because I just press my buzzer and let myself with the phone.)
posted by Room 641-A at 11:21 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Room 641-A at 11:21 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
For me, this is equivalent to: "The answer is to wait for your package to be delivered to a pick-up location, then spend an hour getting to and from the pick-up location as soon as you can find the time to go. Hope that you're provided accurate information about when the package is at the pick-up location so you don't do this more than once. Again." This is because I'm usually not at home during delivery hours.
I addressed that. So far as I am aware, there's no law that says they have to deliver during business hours. It would be trivial for them to deliver in the evenings. Pizza companies already do.
posted by Gelatin at 11:23 AM on October 25, 2017
I addressed that. So far as I am aware, there's no law that says they have to deliver during business hours. It would be trivial for them to deliver in the evenings. Pizza companies already do.
posted by Gelatin at 11:23 AM on October 25, 2017
I'm sure this will be eagerly taken up by the same people who think it's cool to have an always-on, internet-connected microphone in their homes that sends directly to Amazon, Google and God-knows-who-else.
So...able-bodied males in their twenties, who have never before lived in a high-crime area, and are not members of a minority or stigmatized group that might be the victims of targeted violence or electronic harassment?
Heeey- I think we just figured out who came up with this stupid idea.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:24 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
So...able-bodied males in their twenties, who have never before lived in a high-crime area, and are not members of a minority or stigmatized group that might be the victims of targeted violence or electronic harassment?
Heeey- I think we just figured out who came up with this stupid idea.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:24 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
I would really love to see some data on how they arrived at the conclusion that americans would accept this.
Well they are already selling "home assistants" which are no more than marketing data collectors that record you and your kids' conversations - if people are willing to trade off any last semblance of privacy for the 'convenience' of asking a machine to tell them the weather and order pizza without raising a finger, they've already indicated that they will accept an invasion of private space for the 'convenience' of not having to deal with the physical realities of a delivery-based economy.
posted by gyusan at 11:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well they are already selling "home assistants" which are no more than marketing data collectors that record you and your kids' conversations - if people are willing to trade off any last semblance of privacy for the 'convenience' of asking a machine to tell them the weather and order pizza without raising a finger, they've already indicated that they will accept an invasion of private space for the 'convenience' of not having to deal with the physical realities of a delivery-based economy.
posted by gyusan at 11:26 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Papa Bear growled, "Someone's been sleeping in my bed!"
"Someone's been sleeping in my bed, too," said Mama Bear.
"Yay, my package is here!" cried Baby Bear.
posted by Wolfdog at 11:29 AM on October 25, 2017 [38 favorites]
"Someone's been sleeping in my bed, too," said Mama Bear.
"Yay, my package is here!" cried Baby Bear.
posted by Wolfdog at 11:29 AM on October 25, 2017 [38 favorites]
Real talk, my problem with this (and all internet-connected smart locks) is the essential nature of the lock itself.
A lock on your door absolutely will not keep out someone who specifically wants to come into your home. They can break a window, wait around until you come out or go in, or just kick it really hard. There is an old saying that locks only keep out honest people. And that's mostly true, but one thing locks do well is prevent is crimes of opportunity. This is when someone casually tries the door handles of parked cars and steals loose items from the ones he/she finds open. No, they're not going to risk a full break-in, but they'll take an easy grab if they see one.
I envision a lot of very easy, very portable ways of getting into these types of door locks. Hell, maybe even dark web markets that will straight up sell blanket door unlocking in a particular geographic area for a couple hundred dollars. Maybe there are people who are a little too skittish to actually break into your home but might jump at the opportunity to walk through an unlocked front door when they know you're not home.
posted by FakeFreyja at 11:29 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
A lock on your door absolutely will not keep out someone who specifically wants to come into your home. They can break a window, wait around until you come out or go in, or just kick it really hard. There is an old saying that locks only keep out honest people. And that's mostly true, but one thing locks do well is prevent is crimes of opportunity. This is when someone casually tries the door handles of parked cars and steals loose items from the ones he/she finds open. No, they're not going to risk a full break-in, but they'll take an easy grab if they see one.
I envision a lot of very easy, very portable ways of getting into these types of door locks. Hell, maybe even dark web markets that will straight up sell blanket door unlocking in a particular geographic area for a couple hundred dollars. Maybe there are people who are a little too skittish to actually break into your home but might jump at the opportunity to walk through an unlocked front door when they know you're not home.
posted by FakeFreyja at 11:29 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
If you had asked me a few years ago, I would have been ALL OVER this. I live in a high crime city, and once in the span of 2 weeks, had 4 amazon boxes, a package from GAP, and a Stitch Fix box all stolen off my front porch. I asked the delivery folks to hide the packages behind a column, and they still got stolen. And this was with me working from home, which meant nothing ever sat on the porch for more than a few hours. I would have happily let the delivery guys open my front door and place the packages inside.
I did end up finding a pretty cheap solution, though. I bought a big plastic bench for the porch and put up a small sticky note under the doorbell directing packages to the bench. Nary a package has gone missing since (knock on wood). Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
posted by tryniti at 11:33 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I did end up finding a pretty cheap solution, though. I bought a big plastic bench for the porch and put up a small sticky note under the doorbell directing packages to the bench. Nary a package has gone missing since (knock on wood). Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
posted by tryniti at 11:33 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
We'll need a cool new term (like "doxed" and "swatted") for when a kid on another continent unlocks your door. Sprung? Latched?
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:35 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't like the legal ramifications of letting some rando into my home on a whim.
posted by Sphinx at 11:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Sphinx at 11:45 AM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
In other news, cable repair people gratified to no longer be the only porn cliches.
Maude: Lord. You can imagine where it goes from here.
The Dude: He delivers the package?
Maude: Don't be fatuous - well, he actually does deliver a package, I guess.
posted by nubs at 11:46 AM on October 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
Y’all commenters have just done a treasure trove of risk-analysis work for Amazon. For free. Well done!
(No, I don’t work for Amazon, but surely someone who does is already reading this thread....)
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:50 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
(No, I don’t work for Amazon, but surely someone who does is already reading this thread....)
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:50 AM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
If you live in a city you will have an Amazon pickup storefront soon so this will be pretty unnecessary other than for heavy items.
When I was young, so back in the 60s and 70s, Sears had these. You could order from their catalog and get free shipping to the little storefront Sears package pick-up place. Full circle.
posted by Orlop at 11:57 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
When I was young, so back in the 60s and 70s, Sears had these. You could order from their catalog and get free shipping to the little storefront Sears package pick-up place. Full circle.
posted by Orlop at 11:57 AM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
I mean sure, on my house this would require a construction project to add an enclosed porch, so it's not for everyone... but it COULD be done.
This. The problem isn't letting a delivery person inside the door - it's limiting access to your home once they're in it. I do think if this takes off, we're going to see a change in home construction to allow for a locked vestibule area - possibly temperature-controlled (like the "cold rooms" a lot of high end NYC buildings have) for grocery delivery and a rack for dry cleaning. Houses adapt if enough people want them to... just think of all the coal cellars out there that are ripe to be retrofitted as hip new smart foyers).
posted by Mchelly at 12:01 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
This. The problem isn't letting a delivery person inside the door - it's limiting access to your home once they're in it. I do think if this takes off, we're going to see a change in home construction to allow for a locked vestibule area - possibly temperature-controlled (like the "cold rooms" a lot of high end NYC buildings have) for grocery delivery and a rack for dry cleaning. Houses adapt if enough people want them to... just think of all the coal cellars out there that are ripe to be retrofitted as hip new smart foyers).
posted by Mchelly at 12:01 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'd sooner have a large outdoor locking storage box for deliveries, bolted to either the sidewalk or the house.
posted by fings at 12:09 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by fings at 12:09 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
The problem isn't letting a delivery person inside the door - it's limiting access to your home once they're in it.
I think it's this right here - although you'd think that the camera would limit that liability considerably.
posted by mosst at 12:14 PM on October 25, 2017
I think it's this right here - although you'd think that the camera would limit that liability considerably.
posted by mosst at 12:14 PM on October 25, 2017
I would totally do this.
1. I think most people are basically good, including Amazon delivery people. Even if they are "low paid" and whatever euphemisms people here are using for poor
2. I can break into my house in about 30 seconds. Most people can break into most houses in about 5 minutes and that's without breaking anything. Its not hard to break into houses as it is. Apartments are harder, yes, but they typically have lobbies.
3. The risk of the delivery driver doing something? (It's not clear what people are afraid of here) seems much lower than the risk of having packages stolen.
4. What are people afraid of? The delivery driver touching your stuff? Going into an uncontrolled rage and smashing your tv? Coming back later to steal your stuff? Seeing your messy house and making fun of it? I don't get it. What is the risk here?
posted by fshgrl at 12:15 PM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
1. I think most people are basically good, including Amazon delivery people. Even if they are "low paid" and whatever euphemisms people here are using for poor
2. I can break into my house in about 30 seconds. Most people can break into most houses in about 5 minutes and that's without breaking anything. Its not hard to break into houses as it is. Apartments are harder, yes, but they typically have lobbies.
3. The risk of the delivery driver doing something? (It's not clear what people are afraid of here) seems much lower than the risk of having packages stolen.
4. What are people afraid of? The delivery driver touching your stuff? Going into an uncontrolled rage and smashing your tv? Coming back later to steal your stuff? Seeing your messy house and making fun of it? I don't get it. What is the risk here?
posted by fshgrl at 12:15 PM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
It strikes me that the real risk factor here is not people hacking the door locks -- as people have pointed out it's extremely easy to break into nearly any house -- it's the information that no one is home and that you have disabled any alarms. And that doesn't require leaving a footprint of unlocking actions that might trigger alerts, it can be done with passive snooping.
posted by tavella at 12:16 PM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by tavella at 12:16 PM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
I envision a lot of very easy, very portable ways of getting into these types of door locks. Hell, maybe even dark web markets that will straight up sell blanket door unlocking i
That already exists. Bump locks, lock rakes etc. will open most any door instantly or at the longest in about 30 seconds.
posted by fshgrl at 12:19 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
That already exists. Bump locks, lock rakes etc. will open most any door instantly or at the longest in about 30 seconds.
posted by fshgrl at 12:19 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Sweet mother of all monkeys, no. That said, Team Amazon Locker on my front porch? Hell yes.
posted by Space Kitty at 12:29 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 12:29 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Like, why do I have to justify my desire for privacy by providing a list of probable crimes? Maybe I just... don't want strangers in my home, as much as possible?
posted by inconstant at 12:32 PM on October 25, 2017 [34 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 12:32 PM on October 25, 2017 [34 favorites]
Something I saw mentioned on Twitter was the potential for this to be dangerous for the deliverypeople; neighbors have called the police because they see someone black entering their OWN HOME. I think there is real danger in expecting people of color to go into strangers' homes, whether from homeowners themselves or from other people calling the police.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 12:41 PM on October 25, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 12:41 PM on October 25, 2017 [22 favorites]
I don't get it. What is the risk here?
I don't want people in my home when I'm not there. I don't want people in my home when I AM there either tbh.
Really though you don't need to "get" other people's preferences unless you live with them and yours differ.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:42 PM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
I don't want people in my home when I'm not there. I don't want people in my home when I AM there either tbh.
Really though you don't need to "get" other people's preferences unless you live with them and yours differ.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:42 PM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
I get a desire for privacy, absolutely. That makes sense. But I don't get the posts about danger I guess. This seems low risk to me.
posted by fshgrl at 12:48 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 12:48 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
i had to check the calendar to get a visual on the real-ass date of gregorian reckoning because this feels like a terrible april fools "joke" that tech companies are so fond of performing
posted by Tevin at 12:52 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Tevin at 12:52 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
> I can break into my house in about 30 seconds. Most people can break into most houses in about 5 minutes and that's without breaking anything. Its not hard to break into houses as it is.
I bet you still lock your door, though? Having the door locked prevents crimes of opportunity -- it's easier to just try for unsecured doors than bother breaking in.
Having a lot of people going in and out of your house--whether delivery people or contractors or whatever--is readily noticed by anyone looking for a nice little crime of opportunity. Door gets left ajar or un-watched and you come home to a lack of TV/laptop/whatever.
posted by desuetude at 12:52 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I bet you still lock your door, though? Having the door locked prevents crimes of opportunity -- it's easier to just try for unsecured doors than bother breaking in.
Having a lot of people going in and out of your house--whether delivery people or contractors or whatever--is readily noticed by anyone looking for a nice little crime of opportunity. Door gets left ajar or un-watched and you come home to a lack of TV/laptop/whatever.
posted by desuetude at 12:52 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
You know what has already happened with smart locks?
Some of my neighbors have smart locks and one of them was getting all pushy about how I should get one, and she could not get it through her head that yes, I understand what they do, and no, I do not want one.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:52 PM on October 25, 2017
Some of my neighbors have smart locks and one of them was getting all pushy about how I should get one, and she could not get it through her head that yes, I understand what they do, and no, I do not want one.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:52 PM on October 25, 2017
What is the risk here?
there's like literally no part of this that isn't risk
Delivery person takes a physical object. Delivery person engages in theft of your identity. Delivery person uses your internet for illicit things. Delivery person accidentally damages stuff or injures a pet or another household member. Delivery person intentionally does any of those things. Delivery person accidentally or intentionally provides someone else access to your house, and that someone else then does any of the aforementioned things.
Delivery person trips and falls or is otherwise injured in your home. Are you now legally liable? Delivery person forgets to lock up. Who is liable if theft or property damage ensues -- Amazon, or the delivery person, or you?
Delivery person steals stuff out of your package and replaces it before they make the on-camera delivery. Amazon shrugs and says 'well we have video so you're not getting a refund.'
And that's just the delivery person aspect! Smart locks are ridiculously hackable. Amazon now has physical access to your home -- will law enforcement pressure them to grant access to your home 'in an emergency' or for other purposes? Amazon now has a camera in your house and the ability to turn it on... whenever.
posted by halation at 1:14 PM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
there's like literally no part of this that isn't risk
Delivery person takes a physical object. Delivery person engages in theft of your identity. Delivery person uses your internet for illicit things. Delivery person accidentally damages stuff or injures a pet or another household member. Delivery person intentionally does any of those things. Delivery person accidentally or intentionally provides someone else access to your house, and that someone else then does any of the aforementioned things.
Delivery person trips and falls or is otherwise injured in your home. Are you now legally liable? Delivery person forgets to lock up. Who is liable if theft or property damage ensues -- Amazon, or the delivery person, or you?
Delivery person steals stuff out of your package and replaces it before they make the on-camera delivery. Amazon shrugs and says 'well we have video so you're not getting a refund.'
And that's just the delivery person aspect! Smart locks are ridiculously hackable. Amazon now has physical access to your home -- will law enforcement pressure them to grant access to your home 'in an emergency' or for other purposes? Amazon now has a camera in your house and the ability to turn it on... whenever.
posted by halation at 1:14 PM on October 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
I'll tell you what, I don't want Amazon to be able to unlock my house (but no fear, I live in a low income neighborhood where people are far more likely to be impoverished service workers than to enjoy this sort of stochastic chattel experience, so it won't happen anyway) because I hate the way of life promoted by Amazon. I hate that wage stagnation is being hidden by the cheapening of everything, I hate the way that everyone not themselves poor is being pushed to accept the constant services of the precariat class, I hate the always-on filming/recording culture that intrudes everywhere, I hate the idea that the ultimate American life is to sit at home alone, never leaving, watching television and shopping on the computer while a string of marginalized people deliver you more crap. I hate that we're all more and more at the mercy of this giant corporation with shit labor practices from the warehouse floor to the office block. I hate that actual places are dying because of this "sit and shop" lifestyle we all have now. I hate the thought of some poor, semi-employed peon having to unlock my home under suspicion and do their work on camera. I hate the way Amazon constructs workers as suspects. I hate it all from soup to nuts, and I hate Amazon.
Probably in five years, just the act of typing "I hate Amazon" will trigger some kind of internet search-and-file function attached to my identity, rendering me - like Amazon's part-timers - always already a bad subject.
posted by Frowner at 1:17 PM on October 25, 2017 [45 favorites]
Probably in five years, just the act of typing "I hate Amazon" will trigger some kind of internet search-and-file function attached to my identity, rendering me - like Amazon's part-timers - always already a bad subject.
posted by Frowner at 1:17 PM on October 25, 2017 [45 favorites]
a string of marginalized people deliver you more crap.
And not just crap! Services too! Presumably what amazon really wants with this whole smart-lock situation is to buy a bunch of home services and become a service coordinator: schedule your Amazon Grocery delivery to happen after your AmazonShine home-cleaning service wraps up, so it'll coincide with your Amazon Concierge person's visit and they can unload everything into your smart fridge and put the AmazonFresh flowers in a vase while a separate AmazonWag contractor walks your dog for you
posted by halation at 1:24 PM on October 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
And not just crap! Services too! Presumably what amazon really wants with this whole smart-lock situation is to buy a bunch of home services and become a service coordinator: schedule your Amazon Grocery delivery to happen after your AmazonShine home-cleaning service wraps up, so it'll coincide with your Amazon Concierge person's visit and they can unload everything into your smart fridge and put the AmazonFresh flowers in a vase while a separate AmazonWag contractor walks your dog for you
posted by halation at 1:24 PM on October 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
For me, this is equivalent to: "The answer is to wait for your package to be delivered to a pick-up location, then spend an hour getting to and from the pick-up location as soon as you can find the time to go. Hope that you're provided accurate information about when the package is at the pick-up location so you don't do this more than once. Again." This is because I'm usually not at home during delivery hours.
UPS will let you redirect a shipment to a UPS store or distribution facility for free as long as you have a tracking number and the original delivery address matches your UPS account. The system can automatically hold all your packages and email/text you once a package has been scanned-in at that location. It's great if you're worried about package theft and can make it to a UPS store.
posted by nathan_teske at 1:28 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
UPS will let you redirect a shipment to a UPS store or distribution facility for free as long as you have a tracking number and the original delivery address matches your UPS account. The system can automatically hold all your packages and email/text you once a package has been scanned-in at that location. It's great if you're worried about package theft and can make it to a UPS store.
posted by nathan_teske at 1:28 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
nathan_teske, the commenter knows that and addressed the problems with that too. I've personally had to go to the UPS store more than once because my package mysteriously wasn't there. Including the wait in line and the wait for the clerk to check in the back multiple times, it was probably ~2 hours total of my life, and I have a car. If you order frequently, I can see making the calculus that the risk of someone entering your home is better than having to go to the UPS location. Especially if you work odd hours, have kids, or don't own a car.
posted by AFABulous at 1:41 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 1:41 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Wasn't there an incident a few months back where someone got in a dispute with the manufacturer of their smart lock and were locked out of their own house? Imagine Amazon deciding that you can't get into your own house until you pay your past-due Amazon credit card (or, worst, failing your lock *open*).
I am totally on team "I don't want Amazon people in my house because I generally don't want people in my house at all". I feel like people feel the need to justify their disapproval of this for much the same reason they feel it necessary to explain why they don't love dogs or cats or children or drinking or smoking weed or any of the BAZILLION other things that other people like or think are cool that they try to push on their friends.
posted by hanov3r at 2:06 PM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
I am totally on team "I don't want Amazon people in my house because I generally don't want people in my house at all". I feel like people feel the need to justify their disapproval of this for much the same reason they feel it necessary to explain why they don't love dogs or cats or children or drinking or smoking weed or any of the BAZILLION other things that other people like or think are cool that they try to push on their friends.
posted by hanov3r at 2:06 PM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Hard pass. Not that interested in buying various Amazon devices (Alexa, Cloud Cam, smart lock) and Amazon subscription services (for the camera so I can review things more than 24-hours old, and Prime (which tbh I already have)) to create Amazon-hosted/controlled video to monitor my home to protect me from a new Amazon service (in-home delivery).
posted by mountmccabe at 2:13 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by mountmccabe at 2:13 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
a) Apartment buildings installing it by default. Your new place already has an Amazon Key, and you can't opt out.
This is already the case for me with Luxor One. Every time I get a package I have to agree to their terms of service or I don't get my package out of the storage room.
The say I get in this is whether or not I move out when my lease is up.
posted by srboisvert at 2:20 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is already the case for me with Luxor One. Every time I get a package I have to agree to their terms of service or I don't get my package out of the storage room.
The say I get in this is whether or not I move out when my lease is up.
posted by srboisvert at 2:20 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Gelatin: "They could even change their home delivery times to the evenings to accommodate the fact that many people go to work and school"
Of course, the delivery people themselves go to work -- namely, delivering things. I don't blame them for also wanting to go home to their families in the evenings.
posted by crazy with stars at 2:20 PM on October 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
Of course, the delivery people themselves go to work -- namely, delivering things. I don't blame them for also wanting to go home to their families in the evenings.
posted by crazy with stars at 2:20 PM on October 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
I live in a suburb still in the 1950's where my neighbor legit brought me a pie when I moved in and my milkman had a key to my house. (If you ever need to drop something off at someone's house when they're not home, you leave it in the milk crate. That's how we roll.) But, this? No no no.
Although that reminds me, there is an Amazon package waiting for me on the milk crate right now.
posted by Ruki at 2:25 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Although that reminds me, there is an Amazon package waiting for me on the milk crate right now.
posted by Ruki at 2:25 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
2017: Amazon can enter your house to deliver a package
2019: Amazon can enter your house, put food in the smart fridge, and take out the trash
2020: Amazon can enter your house and cook you dinner in your own kitchen
2023: Amazon lives in your house, receiving package and cooking and cleaning for you
2026: Most humans interact only with Amazon
2027: We are all Amazon
posted by miyabo at 2:26 PM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
2019: Amazon can enter your house, put food in the smart fridge, and take out the trash
2020: Amazon can enter your house and cook you dinner in your own kitchen
2023: Amazon lives in your house, receiving package and cooking and cleaning for you
2026: Most humans interact only with Amazon
2027: We are all Amazon
posted by miyabo at 2:26 PM on October 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
LockState a few months ago had a firmware update disaster where they locked people out, but I don't think intentionally--they just updated the firmware which rendered the lock unable to connect and get new working firmware. On the one hand, better than if they'd done something deliberate, which I don't think I've heard about, anyway. On the other hand, a big reason not to install smart locks just now, period, until they come up with better ways to manage when they fail, and a reminder that a similar firmware failure could absolutely cause all kinds of problems with this even if Amazon wasn't being deliberately evil. I'm less afraid of actual evil than I am of bad software testing and reckless levels of enthusiasm for new stuff--not that the evil isn't a risk, but the latter two aren't just a possibility but incredibly common.
posted by Sequence at 2:27 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Sequence at 2:27 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I have to wonder if Amazon executives really gave a thought to the liability they subject themselves to by having people enter someone’s house. Everything from “the dog bit the delivery person”, to “The delivery person stole something from the house/let burglars inside”, to assault and other creepy behavior (toward either the delivery person or the resident), to “delivery person walked into booby trap/fell down the stairs”. How many morons will decide to seek YouTube fame by setting up some sort of prank for the Amazon delivery person and recording it with their handy Cloud Cam?
Well, if it’s in 37 cities, they can test whether there’s a demand for it or not, and by that time, they’ll have finished building out their footprint in Whole Foods.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:31 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well, if it’s in 37 cities, they can test whether there’s a demand for it or not, and by that time, they’ll have finished building out their footprint in Whole Foods.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:31 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I would pay extra if this meant they could skip the packaging/use those plastic moving boxes for transport and just put my shit in the locker package-free.
I was hoping the lockers were working up to this. That they aren't suggests to me that we're underpricing cardboard. I would also wait longer if I could be sure my packages were coming through USPS, or I guess UPS for the big ones.
The problem is they always see all the cool things that technology can do, but none of the ways it can fail horribly. Hence why the Internet of Things is a botridden plagueland.
William Kahan says you shouldn't code when you're at your smartest because you need that margin to test. This is not the only point on which CS agrees that Kahan is technically correct but won't pause to fix themselves.
posted by clew at 2:34 PM on October 25, 2017
I was hoping the lockers were working up to this. That they aren't suggests to me that we're underpricing cardboard. I would also wait longer if I could be sure my packages were coming through USPS, or I guess UPS for the big ones.
The problem is they always see all the cool things that technology can do, but none of the ways it can fail horribly. Hence why the Internet of Things is a botridden plagueland.
William Kahan says you shouldn't code when you're at your smartest because you need that margin to test. This is not the only point on which CS agrees that Kahan is technically correct but won't pause to fix themselves.
posted by clew at 2:34 PM on October 25, 2017
Will no one think of the butlers?
posted by chavenet at 2:36 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:36 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
This was what popped into my head:
2019: Amazon delivery drones remotely unlock Amazon Key doors, fly in and drop packages on the floor
2020: Thieves deploy autonomous drones that follow Amazon delivery drones inside and pick up the packages after drop-off
2021: In response to rising package theft numbers Amazon arms its drones and programs them to destroy any non-Amazon drones within a radius of fifty feet
2022: Thieves deploy counter measures by arming and shielding their drones in turn
2023: Amazon Key ToS now includes a passage advising customers to not return home during delivery hours and that failure to comply carries the risk of serious injury and death due to the drone shooting wars being conducted in or near entrances to peoples' homes during delivery hours.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 2:38 PM on October 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
2019: Amazon delivery drones remotely unlock Amazon Key doors, fly in and drop packages on the floor
2020: Thieves deploy autonomous drones that follow Amazon delivery drones inside and pick up the packages after drop-off
2021: In response to rising package theft numbers Amazon arms its drones and programs them to destroy any non-Amazon drones within a radius of fifty feet
2022: Thieves deploy counter measures by arming and shielding their drones in turn
2023: Amazon Key ToS now includes a passage advising customers to not return home during delivery hours and that failure to comply carries the risk of serious injury and death due to the drone shooting wars being conducted in or near entrances to peoples' homes during delivery hours.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 2:38 PM on October 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
Will no one think of the butlers?
we've already disrupted butlers (and i fully expect amazon to buy this company if the locks work out)
posted by halation at 2:43 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
we've already disrupted butlers (and i fully expect amazon to buy this company if the locks work out)
posted by halation at 2:43 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
most of the thread so far has focused on the potential opportunities for couriers to use their access to private homes to do popular expropriation of physical objects, but I think maybe the real opportunities here for couriers is to reclaim value through espionage rather than expropriation. Like, if you get the chance to make a delivery to someone who is both wealthy and sensitive to blackmail, you could covertly install monitoring devices in their houses, then anonymously request $bignum in Bitcoin should you gather something juicy.
but like, there's easier and more reliable ways to do that that don't necessarily require physical access, so, yeah. I'm not sure that there really are meaningful opportunities for couriers here.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:45 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
but like, there's easier and more reliable ways to do that that don't necessarily require physical access, so, yeah. I'm not sure that there really are meaningful opportunities for couriers here.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:45 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
assault and other creepy behavior (toward either the delivery person or the resident), to “delivery person walked into booby trap/fell down the stairs”. How many morons will decide to seek YouTube fame by setting up some sort of prank for the Amazon delivery person and recording it with their handy Cloud Cam?
This is one thing I really worry about. The contractors are part time contractors who don't make a lot of money and who are politically marginalized. They are people that the white tech bro assholes who are into this stuff view as disposable, basically, and they would probably find it hilarious to, make their jobs as hard as possible through tricks and traps, make phony complaints, film them for the lulz, sexually harass them, etc. I'd be worried, too, about someone just placing orders until he gets a small young women delivery person and then assaulting her. Working class people are already at great risk of assault on the job, and now they're going to be sent into multiple private homes every day, alone and far from help, as employees of an exceptionally distasteful corporation.
posted by Frowner at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2017 [14 favorites]
This is one thing I really worry about. The contractors are part time contractors who don't make a lot of money and who are politically marginalized. They are people that the white tech bro assholes who are into this stuff view as disposable, basically, and they would probably find it hilarious to, make their jobs as hard as possible through tricks and traps, make phony complaints, film them for the lulz, sexually harass them, etc. I'd be worried, too, about someone just placing orders until he gets a small young women delivery person and then assaulting her. Working class people are already at great risk of assault on the job, and now they're going to be sent into multiple private homes every day, alone and far from help, as employees of an exceptionally distasteful corporation.
posted by Frowner at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2017 [14 favorites]
After this is inevitably cracked: Ransomware attack that threatens to sell access to your house (with the camera disabled) along with a handy list of times when no one is home.
You can always have multiple locks on your doors. If you live in a dense area you probably already do. This technology in no way prevents you from locking out the Amazon guy.
If you think of this as always granting Amazon couriers keyless access to your house, then it's pretty creepy. But really it's more like adding an intermediate security setting to your house: accessible to those authorized by Amazon. You can still deny everyone access to your house most of the time (e.g. if you're sleeping, if you're traveling, if you're not expecting any packages) by engaging a mechanical lock that's not controlled by Amazon. You'd just use the intermediate security level for e.g. if you're expecting a package and won't be around.
Anyway, a ransomware attack whose maximum outlay is bounded by the cost of changing your locks is not going to take off any time soon.
posted by grobstein at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
You can always have multiple locks on your doors. If you live in a dense area you probably already do. This technology in no way prevents you from locking out the Amazon guy.
If you think of this as always granting Amazon couriers keyless access to your house, then it's pretty creepy. But really it's more like adding an intermediate security setting to your house: accessible to those authorized by Amazon. You can still deny everyone access to your house most of the time (e.g. if you're sleeping, if you're traveling, if you're not expecting any packages) by engaging a mechanical lock that's not controlled by Amazon. You'd just use the intermediate security level for e.g. if you're expecting a package and won't be around.
Anyway, a ransomware attack whose maximum outlay is bounded by the cost of changing your locks is not going to take off any time soon.
posted by grobstein at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
This could be made to work in places like Germany, where homes are structured differently. We usually don't have the front door open right into the living room or any other rooms. More commonly the front door opens into a hallway, often a mud room, where you take off your shoes and hang your coats, with a second door to the rest of the hallway meant to help keep heat or cold and other weather out. I could see upgrading that second door to a full lockable door and allowing delivery access to the mud room.
Here in the US our home has the typical layout where the front door opens directly into the living room. Delivery access ain't gonna happen. No fucking way.
If I run out of projects I might make a lockable box on the front porch and install the Amazon lock and camera on that.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 2:47 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Here in the US our home has the typical layout where the front door opens directly into the living room. Delivery access ain't gonna happen. No fucking way.
If I run out of projects I might make a lockable box on the front porch and install the Amazon lock and camera on that.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 2:47 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Y’all commenters have just done a treasure trove of risk-analysis work for Amazon. For free. Well done!
Shouldn’t they have done this kind of brainstorming BEFORE they deployed the multi-million dollar product launch? That would have been a good idea! You could maybe call it “basic research” or “feasibility analysis” or something to impress the tech bros.
posted by winna at 2:55 PM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Shouldn’t they have done this kind of brainstorming BEFORE they deployed the multi-million dollar product launch? That would have been a good idea! You could maybe call it “basic research” or “feasibility analysis” or something to impress the tech bros.
posted by winna at 2:55 PM on October 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Y’all commenters have just done a treasure trove of risk-analysis work for Amazon. For free. Well done!
Sometimes the snark is its own reward.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:18 PM on October 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
Sometimes the snark is its own reward.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:18 PM on October 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
Nobody in this thread has come up with anything Amazon didn't think of already.
They're evil, not stupid. And all they care about are their own profits. I'm sure they'll have no problem absolving themselves of responsibility when their locks or some other aspect of their system inevitably fails and causes damage.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:30 PM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
They're evil, not stupid. And all they care about are their own profits. I'm sure they'll have no problem absolving themselves of responsibility when their locks or some other aspect of their system inevitably fails and causes damage.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:30 PM on October 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
for the first time in a while I couldn't get something delivered to my PO Box from amazon and had to use a physical address
I have a PO Box just to deal with the package left on the doorstep issue. I'm lucky in that the post office is four blocks away and I go past it every day. There's 24 hour access to the boxes and packages that are smaller than a breadbox go into a temporary locker and they put the key in my mailbox. Probably a lot of POs have this system.
But what I really appreciate is that a couple years ago, they put up a notice saying we could use the physical street address of the bldg for a delivery address, with our box number as an "apartment number". Works like a charm.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:36 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I have a PO Box just to deal with the package left on the doorstep issue. I'm lucky in that the post office is four blocks away and I go past it every day. There's 24 hour access to the boxes and packages that are smaller than a breadbox go into a temporary locker and they put the key in my mailbox. Probably a lot of POs have this system.
But what I really appreciate is that a couple years ago, they put up a notice saying we could use the physical street address of the bldg for a delivery address, with our box number as an "apartment number". Works like a charm.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:36 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
The smart lock resistance just befuddles me.
When smart locks are bricked, you aren't locked out of your home. Your smart lock becomes a dumb lock. Maybe the point for some people is to get out of the key carrying business. But for me, it's the hands free aspect. Keys fall to the bottom of purses, sometimes I'm carrying stuff. If my door can tell I'm home, so I can pretend I didn't lock my door. That's awesome. Of if I wake up in the middle of the night and can't remember if I locked my door, that's extra awesome.
I actually bought a smart lock because I was robbed when I was asleep. I left my bedroom door unlocked, and woke up without a phone and laptop. The hilarious thing is that I actually suffer from hypervigilance. So you'd think I would be up on all the security. Instead I use all my spoons chasing a sense of fake security, I completely drop the ball on a lot of common sense stuff.
On Amazon Key in specific, I'm a bit embarrassed that this is something I can see myself using. Getting things delivered to my place is a nightmare, and my asthma makes trekking heavy packages up the stairs difficult at times. Sometimes it gets stolen. Sometimes it gets left at a closer doorstep for convenience/time crunch/employee churn.
Of course that second issue isn't going to be fixed by policing employees even closer. That would require additional slack in their labor practices. Allowing them to take a few minutes to find difficult addresses and having generous enough labor practices people stay long enough to learn routes. But that's a problem across the economy, and not just on Amazon or the tech bros. I'm happy for Amazon to take the beating if it leads to culture change. Much less so if we just use it to stop change because the present is so great now.
posted by politikitty at 4:08 PM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
When smart locks are bricked, you aren't locked out of your home. Your smart lock becomes a dumb lock. Maybe the point for some people is to get out of the key carrying business. But for me, it's the hands free aspect. Keys fall to the bottom of purses, sometimes I'm carrying stuff. If my door can tell I'm home, so I can pretend I didn't lock my door. That's awesome. Of if I wake up in the middle of the night and can't remember if I locked my door, that's extra awesome.
I actually bought a smart lock because I was robbed when I was asleep. I left my bedroom door unlocked, and woke up without a phone and laptop. The hilarious thing is that I actually suffer from hypervigilance. So you'd think I would be up on all the security. Instead I use all my spoons chasing a sense of fake security, I completely drop the ball on a lot of common sense stuff.
On Amazon Key in specific, I'm a bit embarrassed that this is something I can see myself using. Getting things delivered to my place is a nightmare, and my asthma makes trekking heavy packages up the stairs difficult at times. Sometimes it gets stolen. Sometimes it gets left at a closer doorstep for convenience/time crunch/employee churn.
Of course that second issue isn't going to be fixed by policing employees even closer. That would require additional slack in their labor practices. Allowing them to take a few minutes to find difficult addresses and having generous enough labor practices people stay long enough to learn routes. But that's a problem across the economy, and not just on Amazon or the tech bros. I'm happy for Amazon to take the beating if it leads to culture change. Much less so if we just use it to stop change because the present is so great now.
posted by politikitty at 4:08 PM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
I just saw a couple articles that Yale just bought August Smart Lock.
posted by Autumnheart at 4:21 PM on October 25, 2017
posted by Autumnheart at 4:21 PM on October 25, 2017
WHAT TO EXPECT FROM AMAZON'S NEW "KEY" SERVICE (MAD MAG)
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:08 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:08 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
You can always have multiple locks on your doors.
Sure you could. But then what would be the point of the smart lock if you have to also manually lock and unlock all the others?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:25 PM on October 25, 2017
Sure you could. But then what would be the point of the smart lock if you have to also manually lock and unlock all the others?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:25 PM on October 25, 2017
Well, if you're not comfortable giving Amazon the keys to your castle, you can always offer them to Walmart and get your fridge stocked in the process. (And for the record, I'm a big nope on the entire concept.)
posted by sardonyx at 5:33 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by sardonyx at 5:33 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
This seems low risk to me.
The Son of Sam is in your house. This seems low risk to you. Okay.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:39 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Son of Sam is in your house. This seems low risk to you. Okay.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:39 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I get a lot of parcels from Amazon, and their delivery people have proven quite unreliable. I always order for a day I know I will be home to accept the delivery. And yet, the desired outcome - they ring my goddamn doorbell and hand me my goddamn parcel - only seems to happen about 3 or 4 times out of 10. The rest of the time, they can't be bothered ringing my doorbell, so I have to go fetch my stuff from whichever neighbour happened to be in their driveway when the delivery guy rolled up. Or worse, they just leave my parcel outside - sometimes hidden, sometimes not, very often in the rain.
I would not give those people even very brief access to my house. Not even to my porch, which contains just some shoes and umbrellas. Hell to the no.
posted by sailoreagle at 5:58 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I would not give those people even very brief access to my house. Not even to my porch, which contains just some shoes and umbrellas. Hell to the no.
posted by sailoreagle at 5:58 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I would pay extra if this meant they could skip the packaging/use those plastic moving boxes for transport and just put my shit in the locker package-free.
They piloted something like this in Seattle a while back (like at least 5 years ago)...there was this heavy-duty reusable grocery bag that they’d pack your stuff in and then some sort of logistics service (the amazon fresh truck, I think) would leave the bag for you at a specific time on a specific day once or twice a week. It was great; you could just leave the bags for them to pick up the next time or you could reuse them yourself, and it didn’t feel nearly as wasteful. It’s too bad it never took off - I’m sure the model didn’t work for a lot of people, but with the bigger logistics infrastructure now I wish they’d revisit it.
posted by mosst at 6:23 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
They piloted something like this in Seattle a while back (like at least 5 years ago)...there was this heavy-duty reusable grocery bag that they’d pack your stuff in and then some sort of logistics service (the amazon fresh truck, I think) would leave the bag for you at a specific time on a specific day once or twice a week. It was great; you could just leave the bags for them to pick up the next time or you could reuse them yourself, and it didn’t feel nearly as wasteful. It’s too bad it never took off - I’m sure the model didn’t work for a lot of people, but with the bigger logistics infrastructure now I wish they’d revisit it.
posted by mosst at 6:23 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh I found the information! It was called AmazonTote and the program ended in 2911. Hah.
I’ve lived in enough mail insecure places to love the idea of more accessible milkman-type boxes or amazon lockers or whatever - but ideally they’d be retailer agnostic. Not amazon’s style, of course, but perhaps PO boxes could be modernized a bit to meet needs better?
posted by mosst at 6:26 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I’ve lived in enough mail insecure places to love the idea of more accessible milkman-type boxes or amazon lockers or whatever - but ideally they’d be retailer agnostic. Not amazon’s style, of course, but perhaps PO boxes could be modernized a bit to meet needs better?
posted by mosst at 6:26 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is one of the craziest things I've ever heard, but that seems to be something I say all the time in 2017.
Pay Amazon $250 to install a monitoring system and keys to my house to make their delivery system easier for them. As opposed to just not ordering from Amazon if I live somewhere where packages get stolen and they have a problem with it.
posted by bongo_x at 6:42 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Pay Amazon $250 to install a monitoring system and keys to my house to make their delivery system easier for them. As opposed to just not ordering from Amazon if I live somewhere where packages get stolen and they have a problem with it.
posted by bongo_x at 6:42 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I have to wonder if Amazon executives really gave a thought to the liability they subject themselves to by having people enter someone’s house.
Easy. It's all in the user agreement: "You agree to give up all your rights. Any dispute you have with us is adjudicated by the arbitrator we own in Seattle."
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:07 PM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Easy. It's all in the user agreement: "You agree to give up all your rights. Any dispute you have with us is adjudicated by the arbitrator we own in Seattle."
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:07 PM on October 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Only if they can somehow incorporate an army of cat couriers. Then I am so down.
posted by soakimbo at 8:18 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by soakimbo at 8:18 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: nude under my leather apron.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:29 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:29 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
We have a flat roof and order an unreasonable percentage of purchases off Amazon, I'm holding out for a drone delivery pad.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:35 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:35 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I have to wonder if Amazon executives really gave a thought to the liability they subject themselves to by having people enter someone’s house.
The home invaders don't work for Amazon*, and the end user is presumably in control of the situation (and there is probably a fuckton of legalese smallprint making damn sure that is the case for realsies even in the case that Amazon swings your front door wide open for your whole vacation) so, like...what liability would they have?
Amazon just seems to be hanging this whole idea on the notion that a segment of their customer base cares as little about their security as they do their privacy.
*why Amazon doesn't just buy UPS or whatever instead of all the dronewank is anyone's guess, but liability issues are probably a big part of it, right? That and general contempt for workers
posted by Sys Rq at 9:32 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
The home invaders don't work for Amazon*, and the end user is presumably in control of the situation (and there is probably a fuckton of legalese smallprint making damn sure that is the case for realsies even in the case that Amazon swings your front door wide open for your whole vacation) so, like...what liability would they have?
Amazon just seems to be hanging this whole idea on the notion that a segment of their customer base cares as little about their security as they do their privacy.
*why Amazon doesn't just buy UPS or whatever instead of all the dronewank is anyone's guess, but liability issues are probably a big part of it, right? That and general contempt for workers
posted by Sys Rq at 9:32 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Of course, the delivery people themselves go to work -- namely, delivering things. I don't blame them for also wanting to go home to their families in the evenings.
No no no, this is all gig economy stuff. Plenty of people drive for Lyft or deliver food during evenings and weekends. There’s no reason Amazon couldn’t find people interested in delivering packages during those same hours.
posted by bendy at 9:38 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
No no no, this is all gig economy stuff. Plenty of people drive for Lyft or deliver food during evenings and weekends. There’s no reason Amazon couldn’t find people interested in delivering packages during those same hours.
posted by bendy at 9:38 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
We have a flat roof and order an unreasonable percentage of purchases off Amazon, I'm holding out for a drone delivery pad.
How about a catapult-based delivery system?
posted by bendy at 9:39 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
How about a catapult-based delivery system?
posted by bendy at 9:39 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh I found the information! It was called AmazonTote and the program ended in 2911. Hah.
I had a funny feeling reading through the posts that I had time-travelled to the 30th century. Thanks for confirming that suspicion!
posted by tenderly at 9:47 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I had a funny feeling reading through the posts that I had time-travelled to the 30th century. Thanks for confirming that suspicion!
posted by tenderly at 9:47 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
This isn't much different from the connected lockboxes that realtors use for house showings these days, sounds like it has more layers of security with the video. (The lockboxes just log the realtor's code and the times, but realtors are at least bonded.)
I don't think I'd personally use it because I don't really have boxes delivered that I need put inside that badly, but I can definitely think of friends who would use it -- they live in areas with a lot of doorstep theft, they work long or unpredictable hours or travel frequently, they want deliveries to an elderly parent placed inside, etc.
Milk holes are cool but they're pretty vunerable to break-in, they're not very big, and they're a huuuuuuge loss of insulation. (I mean, existing ones. I assume you could build a better milk hole. But you'd probably be talking some tech and then you're coming back around to this idea.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:08 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't think I'd personally use it because I don't really have boxes delivered that I need put inside that badly, but I can definitely think of friends who would use it -- they live in areas with a lot of doorstep theft, they work long or unpredictable hours or travel frequently, they want deliveries to an elderly parent placed inside, etc.
Milk holes are cool but they're pretty vunerable to break-in, they're not very big, and they're a huuuuuuge loss of insulation. (I mean, existing ones. I assume you could build a better milk hole. But you'd probably be talking some tech and then you're coming back around to this idea.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:08 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I have an Amazon delivery locker within walking distance of my front door.... I'm starting to get tire of wet packages, and may use it instead. As for the idea of letting them do this smart lock.... 0/~ My name is NO, my sign is NO, my number is NO, you need to let it go o/~~
posted by MikeWarot at 10:25 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by MikeWarot at 10:25 PM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I worked for a technology company with an interesting -- and as far as I can tell, not unusual -- approach to developing new ideas.
The premise was simple: a few times a year, everyone on staff was invited to pitch product ideas to upper management, and one would be chosen for investment and development.
What I found interesting was this: impractical or fatally flawed ideas were often picked, and participants were explicitly urged to ignore the negatives of their own ideas. The exchanges would go something like this:
Pitcher: "the part I haven't figured out is whether this [is ethical|is legal|can scale|is safe]"
Upper Management Judges: "don't worry about [negative thing], if that turns out to be a problem, it's a great problem to have because it means people are using your [thing being pitched]!"
On the surface that is a great way to keep good ideas from dying prematurely, but it also means obvious concerns are being prioritized below the importance of gaining the investment and an audience...and once you find an audience, you will really be compelled to gloss over those still-obvious concerns in order to protect the investment you made to get that audience.
The prime example of that is Uber, who basically tried to grow their audience as quickly as possible in the hope that they'd get big and profitable enough to "solve" their sketchy legality problem by having enough money to fight lawsuits/get citizens on their side/lobby for changing the laws.
Which is to say, it is a strategy that works for the tech industry, but also produces ideas like the one we are discussing here. I'm sure the person(s) who championed it considered everything we are saying here, but felt (or were encouraged to feel) that those are problems to solve later, right now let's get everyone using it ASAP.
posted by davejay at 10:35 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
The premise was simple: a few times a year, everyone on staff was invited to pitch product ideas to upper management, and one would be chosen for investment and development.
What I found interesting was this: impractical or fatally flawed ideas were often picked, and participants were explicitly urged to ignore the negatives of their own ideas. The exchanges would go something like this:
Pitcher: "the part I haven't figured out is whether this [is ethical|is legal|can scale|is safe]"
Upper Management Judges: "don't worry about [negative thing], if that turns out to be a problem, it's a great problem to have because it means people are using your [thing being pitched]!"
On the surface that is a great way to keep good ideas from dying prematurely, but it also means obvious concerns are being prioritized below the importance of gaining the investment and an audience...and once you find an audience, you will really be compelled to gloss over those still-obvious concerns in order to protect the investment you made to get that audience.
The prime example of that is Uber, who basically tried to grow their audience as quickly as possible in the hope that they'd get big and profitable enough to "solve" their sketchy legality problem by having enough money to fight lawsuits/get citizens on their side/lobby for changing the laws.
Which is to say, it is a strategy that works for the tech industry, but also produces ideas like the one we are discussing here. I'm sure the person(s) who championed it considered everything we are saying here, but felt (or were encouraged to feel) that those are problems to solve later, right now let's get everyone using it ASAP.
posted by davejay at 10:35 PM on October 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Rings true to me and it's obvious that glossing was done by people who have no clue. There's some one alive right now that this is the first chapter of the tragedy making its way towards them.
posted by bleep at 11:27 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 11:27 PM on October 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Package theft is only an occasional problem at our house, but I'd still love if packages were out of sight rather than all over the porch, especially if we've gone out of town for a few days. You couldn't easily add a mudroom to the front of our house (unfortunately, since mudrooms are a most civilized amenity), but there is easily space for a locker of some kind.
But for this to really work the locker would need to function with all of the companies that deliver packages (USPS, UPS, FedEx, etc) as well as Amazon's own people. More importantly, the delivery people would need to actually use it. I have friends who have a non-locking plastic bench/container thing and a sign asking delivery people to put packages in it, not for theft but just to keep things out of the rain. And probably 80 percent of the time, the packages are just left on their porch in the rain.
While I have no interest in giving Amazon access to my house (much less install their creepy cameras, ugh), I've been keeping an eye on smart locks and plan to install them as soon as the technology matures a bit more. Being able to set up a temporary "key" for a trusted contractor or a house guest would be convenient. Our current locks are cheap and not particularly secure (and there are windows right next to them anyway); I don't need the smart locks to be incredibly high security, just solid and not buggy.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:22 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
But for this to really work the locker would need to function with all of the companies that deliver packages (USPS, UPS, FedEx, etc) as well as Amazon's own people. More importantly, the delivery people would need to actually use it. I have friends who have a non-locking plastic bench/container thing and a sign asking delivery people to put packages in it, not for theft but just to keep things out of the rain. And probably 80 percent of the time, the packages are just left on their porch in the rain.
While I have no interest in giving Amazon access to my house (much less install their creepy cameras, ugh), I've been keeping an eye on smart locks and plan to install them as soon as the technology matures a bit more. Being able to set up a temporary "key" for a trusted contractor or a house guest would be convenient. Our current locks are cheap and not particularly secure (and there are windows right next to them anyway); I don't need the smart locks to be incredibly high security, just solid and not buggy.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:22 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think I'll hold out for the inevitable Amazon Mantrap that will be coming out in a few years.
posted by FJT at 6:45 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by FJT at 6:45 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Amazon Mantrap
One of the best Star Trek episodes. Captain Kirk continues to surprise.
posted by Servo5678 at 6:49 AM on October 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
One of the best Star Trek episodes. Captain Kirk continues to surprise.
posted by Servo5678 at 6:49 AM on October 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
If ever there was a service that was absolutely not for me, this is it. I don't even let hotel room cleaners in, and that space arguably belongs more to them than me.
posted by greermahoney at 6:50 AM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by greermahoney at 6:50 AM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Amazon Mantrap
Starring Lloyd Bridges! Coming to an episode of MST3K real soon.
posted by Grangousier at 7:27 AM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
Starring Lloyd Bridges! Coming to an episode of MST3K real soon.
posted by Grangousier at 7:27 AM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
> This isn't much different from the connected lockboxes that realtors use for house showings these days, sounds like it has more layers of security with the video. (The lockboxes just log the realtor's code and the times, but realtors are at least bonded.)
Except that the lockboxes typically grant access to...a mostly-empty house. The security of which the realtor has a VERY vested interest in protecting.
posted by desuetude at 8:06 AM on October 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
Except that the lockboxes typically grant access to...a mostly-empty house. The security of which the realtor has a VERY vested interest in protecting.
posted by desuetude at 8:06 AM on October 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
Pizza companies already do.
I dunno; have you got delivery lately? I actually can't find delivery pizza to my house in town--admittedly, we're out on the outskirts a bit, but I can find fewer and fewer places that do in-house delivery. Most of them contract it out to things like GrubHub for an additional fee.
(We also can't get GrubHub at home, so uh that's nice I guess.)
Given that I have four cats, two of whom are door-dashers (one of which will race off at top speed immediately upon exiting the house), and two of whom are disabled (one blind, one cross-eyed, not able to climb effectively, and bad at leaping), Iiiiii'm going to say that I do not want anyone I have not personally authorized in my home without me present. I don't want to think about what might happen if blind Dent the very friendly kitten followed his buddy Peter out into the yard and then got lost. They wear collars with phone numbers and legends like "I AM BLIND" or "INDOOR ONLY CAT" on them, but why risk it?
Not to mention the dog, who is usually crated at home but isn't always, has a tendency to view people doing weird things as potentially threatening, and who I actually do think might bite a deliveryman if loose and there weren't people she recognized as "her" people to reassure her everything was fine. On top of that, we just had people come to mow the lawn who left the back gate wide open, so my "let dog out to pee for five minutes" turned into a twenty-minute quest to find and secure the dog going joyriding through my neighbors' lawns this morning.
The pet aspect of this is not trivial in any way.
posted by sciatrix at 8:37 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
I dunno; have you got delivery lately? I actually can't find delivery pizza to my house in town--admittedly, we're out on the outskirts a bit, but I can find fewer and fewer places that do in-house delivery. Most of them contract it out to things like GrubHub for an additional fee.
(We also can't get GrubHub at home, so uh that's nice I guess.)
Given that I have four cats, two of whom are door-dashers (one of which will race off at top speed immediately upon exiting the house), and two of whom are disabled (one blind, one cross-eyed, not able to climb effectively, and bad at leaping), Iiiiii'm going to say that I do not want anyone I have not personally authorized in my home without me present. I don't want to think about what might happen if blind Dent the very friendly kitten followed his buddy Peter out into the yard and then got lost. They wear collars with phone numbers and legends like "I AM BLIND" or "INDOOR ONLY CAT" on them, but why risk it?
Not to mention the dog, who is usually crated at home but isn't always, has a tendency to view people doing weird things as potentially threatening, and who I actually do think might bite a deliveryman if loose and there weren't people she recognized as "her" people to reassure her everything was fine. On top of that, we just had people come to mow the lawn who left the back gate wide open, so my "let dog out to pee for five minutes" turned into a twenty-minute quest to find and secure the dog going joyriding through my neighbors' lawns this morning.
The pet aspect of this is not trivial in any way.
posted by sciatrix at 8:37 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
As winna noted above, they explicitly say they do not recommend using the service if you have pets. I’m sure they don’t want the liability of lost/injured animals or bitten couriers.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:54 AM on October 26, 2017
posted by Room 641-A at 8:54 AM on October 26, 2017
I'm pretty sure the International Union of Skittish Dogs is going to have some issues with this.
they explicitly say they do not recommend using the service if you have pets.
I myself am looking forward to video of my dogs rending an Amazon delivery person limb from limb. Imagine the commercial potential!
posted by Billiken at 9:32 AM on October 26, 2017
they explicitly say they do not recommend using the service if you have pets.
I myself am looking forward to video of my dogs rending an Amazon delivery person limb from limb. Imagine the commercial potential!
posted by Billiken at 9:32 AM on October 26, 2017
I’m not defending Amazon Key by any stretch, but I think it bears pointing out that their security camera is no more creepy than the one offered by Canary, Nest, Arlo, or any other security camera manufacturer. People use them a lot to keep an eye on their pets or their kids while they’re out of the house. Amazon might be “innovating” by offering a package that combines a smart lock and a camera with Amazon delivery, but those products have individually been on the market for a few years now.
Amazon’s biggest disadvantage is their lack of presence in the physical world. After 20 years of trying to make it so we don’t need stores anymore, they’ve discovered that it’s a hurdle you really can’t overcome in the retail industry, and they’re playing catch-up. Major grocery retailers have been offering delivery for many years, major dry-goods retailers have been accelerating their abilities to make it easy for customers to buy online and then pick things up at the store or have their purchase delivered. The largest retailers are moving into the “help you out at home” space with in-home security services, smart home product installation, and basically positioning themselves to solidify brand loyalty by taking care of the customer throughout the entire product lifestyle: we tell you what’s out there, we show you how it works, we sell it, we install it, we take away the old one and recycle it, repeat as needed. Amazon needs to get into that space, if they don’t want to be just the website where you do some product research before you go somewhere else to buy it.
So buying Whole Foods is one big jump into that pool, and seeing if people will trust Amazon to come in their house is another. I’m personally of the opinion that this is gonna go over like a lead balloon because a) package deliverers already have a solid reputation as being sketchy and untrustworthy with your stuff, and b) these people wouldn’t be Amazon people and there would be no real recourse if something negative happens. The UPS guy comes in with Amazon Key and walks out with your TV and jewelry box? Gee, tough break, call UPS and see if they can find him. No thanks.
posted by Autumnheart at 10:07 AM on October 26, 2017
Amazon’s biggest disadvantage is their lack of presence in the physical world. After 20 years of trying to make it so we don’t need stores anymore, they’ve discovered that it’s a hurdle you really can’t overcome in the retail industry, and they’re playing catch-up. Major grocery retailers have been offering delivery for many years, major dry-goods retailers have been accelerating their abilities to make it easy for customers to buy online and then pick things up at the store or have their purchase delivered. The largest retailers are moving into the “help you out at home” space with in-home security services, smart home product installation, and basically positioning themselves to solidify brand loyalty by taking care of the customer throughout the entire product lifestyle: we tell you what’s out there, we show you how it works, we sell it, we install it, we take away the old one and recycle it, repeat as needed. Amazon needs to get into that space, if they don’t want to be just the website where you do some product research before you go somewhere else to buy it.
So buying Whole Foods is one big jump into that pool, and seeing if people will trust Amazon to come in their house is another. I’m personally of the opinion that this is gonna go over like a lead balloon because a) package deliverers already have a solid reputation as being sketchy and untrustworthy with your stuff, and b) these people wouldn’t be Amazon people and there would be no real recourse if something negative happens. The UPS guy comes in with Amazon Key and walks out with your TV and jewelry box? Gee, tough break, call UPS and see if they can find him. No thanks.
posted by Autumnheart at 10:07 AM on October 26, 2017
The other reason behind the no-pets suggestion is, of course, that some pets would take advantage of it.
posted by Mchelly at 10:08 AM on October 26, 2017
posted by Mchelly at 10:08 AM on October 26, 2017
I would totally come home to a house stuffed with catnip, toys and treats. My cats are already disturbingly collaborative. The only thing saving me right now is their inability to open a laptop and the fact that they don’t know my password. At least I don’t think they do. Maybe this is why they insist on sitting on my lap while I type. I’m one dash button and smart lock away from being evicted from my own house!
posted by Autumnheart at 10:23 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Autumnheart at 10:23 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Amazon Key Is Some, Like, Extra-White Shit
posted by rabbitrabbit at 10:24 AM on October 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 10:24 AM on October 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
their security camera is no more creepy than the one offered by Canary, Nest, Arlo, or any other security camera manufacturer.
True. They are equally creepy as fuck.
So once upon a time, I used to have this little background thing that would randomly display different unsecured cameras. It was almost all traffic cams and public security cameras, with a few weird little things thrown in like a pole sticking out of a pond in I think it was Iceland, a parrot cam, and a bunch of analog meters in some kind of facility I couldn't identify. But they were all the sort of thing I figured were intentionally public.
Then, one day, there were some people sitting on a couch watching TV. I tried to explain that away. Maybe one of those dumb social experiments people have been doing since the 70s or so. Some kind of art project or reality show, maybe.
Then, soon after, a lady folding laundry on her bed, and that's when I stopped before I saw something I couldn't unsee.
Naive users have become some of the earliest adopters of "new" technologies like this, and it sets little incremental precedents for creeping corporate surveillance that end up affecting everyone, not just the people who opted in.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:36 AM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
True. They are equally creepy as fuck.
So once upon a time, I used to have this little background thing that would randomly display different unsecured cameras. It was almost all traffic cams and public security cameras, with a few weird little things thrown in like a pole sticking out of a pond in I think it was Iceland, a parrot cam, and a bunch of analog meters in some kind of facility I couldn't identify. But they were all the sort of thing I figured were intentionally public.
Then, one day, there were some people sitting on a couch watching TV. I tried to explain that away. Maybe one of those dumb social experiments people have been doing since the 70s or so. Some kind of art project or reality show, maybe.
Then, soon after, a lady folding laundry on her bed, and that's when I stopped before I saw something I couldn't unsee.
Naive users have become some of the earliest adopters of "new" technologies like this, and it sets little incremental precedents for creeping corporate surveillance that end up affecting everyone, not just the people who opted in.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:36 AM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
but I think it bears pointing out that their security camera is no more creepy than the one offered by Canary, Nest, Arlo, or any other security camera manufacturer.
a: Not a convincing argument. None of that shit is coming near my house.
b: Wrong. Amazon is always more creepy, unless it's Google.
posted by bongo_x at 11:40 AM on October 26, 2017
a: Not a convincing argument. None of that shit is coming near my house.
b: Wrong. Amazon is always more creepy, unless it's Google.
posted by bongo_x at 11:40 AM on October 26, 2017
The FBI has contracted with Best Buy's "Geek Squad" employees to search hard drives for child porn, bypassing the need for a warrant. (Though much evidence was thrown out in that case, a judge did allow that as a way to bypass a search warrant.)
Perhaps the government would contract with Amazon drivers to take a look around for contraband in private homes.
posted by Teppy at 11:51 AM on October 26, 2017
Perhaps the government would contract with Amazon drivers to take a look around for contraband in private homes.
posted by Teppy at 11:51 AM on October 26, 2017
Yeah, but there’s a big difference between someone who actively brings you their computer and asks you to go through their data, vs. someone who allows you into their house. There are already a gazillion delivery drivers and repair people that have been going in people’s houses for decades, and they’re not contracted to look for contraband.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:00 PM on October 26, 2017
posted by Autumnheart at 12:00 PM on October 26, 2017
For that matter, they could just contract with Sony and Samsung and look in your living room from your television. Most people aren’t going to keep the contraband out for the delivery people to see, but they will take it back out once the door shuts.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:06 PM on October 26, 2017
posted by Autumnheart at 12:06 PM on October 26, 2017
There are already a gazillion delivery drivers and repair people that have been going in people’s houses for decades, and they’re not contracted to look for contraband.
They tried, under Bush, which was a far saner administration than the current one.
The name is evading me right now, but they absolutely did propose and possibly even start a program where they would enlist service people like delivery drivers and plumbers and such to report on suspicious activities in people's homes.
Combine that with PRISM and other known and unknown electronic surveillance programs, and yeah, this stuff is scary as fuck.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:23 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
They tried, under Bush, which was a far saner administration than the current one.
The name is evading me right now, but they absolutely did propose and possibly even start a program where they would enlist service people like delivery drivers and plumbers and such to report on suspicious activities in people's homes.
Combine that with PRISM and other known and unknown electronic surveillance programs, and yeah, this stuff is scary as fuck.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:23 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well, they can try, but humans are expensive to move around and the 4th amendment specifically prohibits it. Not to mention the bad PR that a participating company would endure if that became a thing, even if it became socially acceptable to arrest someone because the Amazon driver saw pot in your house, who has no warrant, no authority as law enforcement whatsoever.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:30 PM on October 26, 2017
posted by Autumnheart at 12:30 PM on October 26, 2017
The 4th amendment doesn't prohibit civilians who have been invited into your home from reporting on what they see there, and bad PR doesn't take down companies like Amazon.
And it's not just the government who is watching. It's private companies, like Amazon, that are gathering information about people and using it to target them. Amazon probably isn't currently selling that information on the open market right now, but just because the buyers would be competition. But look around at the sort of profiles data brokers are already compiling and selling based on information they've gleaned from a variety of sources. You can buy lists of people with dementia, crime victims, and pretty much anything else you can think of. Imagine what they can compile with access to their homes.
I mean, I'm sure the convenience is worth it to some people, but they aren't just making these decisions for themselves. They're making them for others, too.
There are people in this very thread who literally don't understand why anyone would take exception to these sorts of invasions of their privacy. And because people don't understand those things, they don't respect them, either.
posted by ernielundquist at 1:08 PM on October 26, 2017 [8 favorites]
And it's not just the government who is watching. It's private companies, like Amazon, that are gathering information about people and using it to target them. Amazon probably isn't currently selling that information on the open market right now, but just because the buyers would be competition. But look around at the sort of profiles data brokers are already compiling and selling based on information they've gleaned from a variety of sources. You can buy lists of people with dementia, crime victims, and pretty much anything else you can think of. Imagine what they can compile with access to their homes.
I mean, I'm sure the convenience is worth it to some people, but they aren't just making these decisions for themselves. They're making them for others, too.
There are people in this very thread who literally don't understand why anyone would take exception to these sorts of invasions of their privacy. And because people don't understand those things, they don't respect them, either.
posted by ernielundquist at 1:08 PM on October 26, 2017 [8 favorites]
Contraband
Amazon Key, eh? That’s a pretty big order.
posted by chavenet at 1:14 PM on October 26, 2017
Amazon Key, eh? That’s a pretty big order.
posted by chavenet at 1:14 PM on October 26, 2017
The 4th amendment doesn't prohibit civilians who have been invited into your home from reporting on what they see there
But it’s still only hearsay, and then you need to send an actual officer over to the house to see if they can find anything lawbreaking, and then you need to arrest someone, and go through all the steps of due process. Is any level of government looking to spend a few hundred million more dollars on all the cops, public defenders and judges required to handle the influx of complaints? At a time where they’re gutting federal budget allocations and are about to deliver a gigantic hit to the economy in the form of elimination healthcare for millions and a tax break for the wealthy?
and bad PR doesn't take down companies like Amazon.
Yes it does. Bad PR takes companies down all the time. Look at Uber. And all Amazon has to do is just be like, “Well, never mind on Amazon Key then, we’ll just go with Amazon Lockers and skip all that.”
If the government hasn’t made repair spies a thing yet, they’re not likely to succeed now, not when digital surveillance is so much easier and more effective.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:19 PM on October 26, 2017
But it’s still only hearsay, and then you need to send an actual officer over to the house to see if they can find anything lawbreaking, and then you need to arrest someone, and go through all the steps of due process. Is any level of government looking to spend a few hundred million more dollars on all the cops, public defenders and judges required to handle the influx of complaints? At a time where they’re gutting federal budget allocations and are about to deliver a gigantic hit to the economy in the form of elimination healthcare for millions and a tax break for the wealthy?
and bad PR doesn't take down companies like Amazon.
Yes it does. Bad PR takes companies down all the time. Look at Uber. And all Amazon has to do is just be like, “Well, never mind on Amazon Key then, we’ll just go with Amazon Lockers and skip all that.”
If the government hasn’t made repair spies a thing yet, they’re not likely to succeed now, not when digital surveillance is so much easier and more effective.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:19 PM on October 26, 2017
It also bears remembering that the people most likely to be spuriously targeted for “contraband” is the least likely audience for Amazon Key. It’s not like any level of government is interested in arresting a bunch of techbros, even if it were completely justified and they were legitimately a danger to their community, much less to concoct a bullshit reason to do so. It would be ridiculously trivial to avoid making oneself vulnerable this way, as the hilarious article about “Amazon Key is some white-people shit” points out.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:27 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Autumnheart at 1:27 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
> But it’s still only hearsay, and then you need to send an actual officer over to the house to see if they can find anything lawbreaking, and then you need to arrest someone, and go through all the steps of due process. Is any level of government looking to spend a few hundred million more dollars on all the cops, public defenders and judges required to handle the influx of complaints?
Naw, not for every case. Just the suspicious ones where due process magically moves REAL FAST with fewer checks and balances. You know, like for black people or Muslims.
> Bad PR takes companies down all the time. Look at Uber.
How has Uber been "taken down" in any meaningful way?
posted by desuetude at 2:11 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Naw, not for every case. Just the suspicious ones where due process magically moves REAL FAST with fewer checks and balances. You know, like for black people or Muslims.
> Bad PR takes companies down all the time. Look at Uber.
How has Uber been "taken down" in any meaningful way?
posted by desuetude at 2:11 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Public-relations woes may be catching up with Uber
posted by Autumnheart at 2:16 PM on October 26, 2017
posted by Autumnheart at 2:16 PM on October 26, 2017
Now, however, there are signs that the tide may be turning. Certify, an expense-management software company, has released its latest quarterly report on business-travel spending in America. And for the first time since it started collecting data in 2013, Uber has seen a decline in use among business travellers.
Uber and other ride-hailing apps still dominate the business-travel market for ground transport, accounting for around two-thirds of it. And they are growing at the expense of traditional services. The market share of taxis and rental cars declined by one percentage point to 7% and 28%, respectively, in the third quarter of the year.
But even as ride-hailing continued to grow, Uber saw its share inch down, from 55% to 54% in the latest quarter.
A speculative report specifically on business-travel spending reports that Uber is in a strong position but saw its share decrease by one percentage point.
That's not exactly failure.
posted by desuetude at 2:22 PM on October 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
Uber and other ride-hailing apps still dominate the business-travel market for ground transport, accounting for around two-thirds of it. And they are growing at the expense of traditional services. The market share of taxis and rental cars declined by one percentage point to 7% and 28%, respectively, in the third quarter of the year.
But even as ride-hailing continued to grow, Uber saw its share inch down, from 55% to 54% in the latest quarter.
A speculative report specifically on business-travel spending reports that Uber is in a strong position but saw its share decrease by one percentage point.
That's not exactly failure.
posted by desuetude at 2:22 PM on October 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
In business travel spending. Its total market share has gone from 91% in 2014 to 73% this year. That’s a big drop.
Not that this is relevant, since the argument that Amazon Key delivery drivers are suddenly going to start spying on people and getting them arrested is utterly preposterous. That is no more going to be a thing than delivery by drone. Let’s get back to actual reality.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:28 PM on October 26, 2017
Not that this is relevant, since the argument that Amazon Key delivery drivers are suddenly going to start spying on people and getting them arrested is utterly preposterous. That is no more going to be a thing than delivery by drone. Let’s get back to actual reality.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:28 PM on October 26, 2017
The other day I was working in my home office and was looking out the window while taking a break. I literally watched our local Amazon delivery guy PULL DOWN HIS PANTS and piss on the open sidewalk in broad daylight in a major US East Coast City. I saw this man's exposed genitals before he zipped up his pants and continued delivering packages.
Security systems, Internet of Things, and basic home safety aside as well as logic aside which everyone else has mentioned and I wholly nth from the mountain tips, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH TECHBROS thinking allowing this man freedom to enter my home is remotely ok?!
posted by floweredfish at 3:30 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Security systems, Internet of Things, and basic home safety aside as well as logic aside which everyone else has mentioned and I wholly nth from the mountain tips, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH TECHBROS thinking allowing this man freedom to enter my home is remotely ok?!
posted by floweredfish at 3:30 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
I thought there was no way people would ever let amazon or Google put a listening device in their homes. I don't understand people.
posted by palegirl at 4:01 PM on October 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by palegirl at 4:01 PM on October 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
Okay, look, I bet that dude pissed on the sidewalk because he's on some sociopathic Amazon clock and there's no public bathrooms near you anyway.
And I bet that all those bad, bad proletarians who say they knock but don't are also under the gun to deliver all their packages in, like, under one minute each or something. When you give people decent pay and decent working conditions, their behavior on the job tends to improve.
An awful lot of the complaints in this thread are basically "I don't want this service because poorly compensated part time workers who are being timed and filmed are not giving it 110%". This seems backward to me.
(A note:more than a decade ago, I had a survey job that involved walking around the suburbs for four hour shifts. There were no bathrooms. We were discouraged from taking sick time. I had already missed two days due to one of the worst stomach flus I've ever had. Now, this story is not gross, but it does involve about six hours (counting transit time to and from the suburb) of walking around with horrible, horrible stomach cramps, hoping that I was not going to collapse on the sidewalk in a pile of horrible bodily effluvia. No bathrooms, no breaks, bad pay, no sick time - that's what gets people using your sidewalks as a toilet. And yes, I have actually recently had a homeless heroin addict piss on my porch so I know that it's neither fun nor the result of too much justice.)
posted by Frowner at 4:02 PM on October 26, 2017 [12 favorites]
And I bet that all those bad, bad proletarians who say they knock but don't are also under the gun to deliver all their packages in, like, under one minute each or something. When you give people decent pay and decent working conditions, their behavior on the job tends to improve.
An awful lot of the complaints in this thread are basically "I don't want this service because poorly compensated part time workers who are being timed and filmed are not giving it 110%". This seems backward to me.
(A note:more than a decade ago, I had a survey job that involved walking around the suburbs for four hour shifts. There were no bathrooms. We were discouraged from taking sick time. I had already missed two days due to one of the worst stomach flus I've ever had. Now, this story is not gross, but it does involve about six hours (counting transit time to and from the suburb) of walking around with horrible, horrible stomach cramps, hoping that I was not going to collapse on the sidewalk in a pile of horrible bodily effluvia. No bathrooms, no breaks, bad pay, no sick time - that's what gets people using your sidewalks as a toilet. And yes, I have actually recently had a homeless heroin addict piss on my porch so I know that it's neither fun nor the result of too much justice.)
posted by Frowner at 4:02 PM on October 26, 2017 [12 favorites]
I thought there was no way people would ever let amazon or Google put a listening device in their homes. I don't understand people.
They didn't let them, they paid for it to happen.
posted by bongo_x at 4:39 PM on October 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
They didn't let them, they paid for it to happen.
posted by bongo_x at 4:39 PM on October 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
Something is seriously wrong with techbros.
There's a strong fetish in the tech culture for the Victorian era. When the well-to-do had servants.
Our larger culture has been spending a lot of time winnowing the "middle class" back into their previous segments of "the poor" or "the bourgeoisie".
This, and Uber, and grocery delivery, and smart thermostats, and work-provided-laundry service, and catered meals, and maid service, and.. and.. and... are all part of the same thing.
We casually write it off as "techbros want their mommies", but no.. they want servants, because they're on the "rich" side of the dividing line. It's cultural, but it's not just techbros.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:43 AM on October 27, 2017 [10 favorites]
There's a strong fetish in the tech culture for the Victorian era. When the well-to-do had servants.
Our larger culture has been spending a lot of time winnowing the "middle class" back into their previous segments of "the poor" or "the bourgeoisie".
This, and Uber, and grocery delivery, and smart thermostats, and work-provided-laundry service, and catered meals, and maid service, and.. and.. and... are all part of the same thing.
We casually write it off as "techbros want their mommies", but no.. they want servants, because they're on the "rich" side of the dividing line. It's cultural, but it's not just techbros.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:43 AM on October 27, 2017 [10 favorites]
I literally watched our local Amazon delivery guy PULL DOWN HIS PANTS and piss
wait you mean he mean he went full butters?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:19 AM on October 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
wait you mean he mean he went full butters?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:19 AM on October 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
An awful lot of the complaints in this thread are basically "I don't want this service because poorly compensated part time workers who are being timed and filmed are not giving it 110%". This seems backward to me.Yeah, the unfortunate thing is, there is absolutely nothing I can do about Amazon treating their delivery drivers like shit. I'm aware it's less the delivery person not caring about the parcels and more about the general "go go go deliver fast fast fast faster" requirements of the job. I avoid using Amazon (and other large companies that treat their workers similarly) because of this when I can. But I live out in the sticks, and I have no car, and often the small scattering of local stores don't carry $thing I need, or the only "local" store that carries it is 1 hour and 2 bus changes away and $thing is large and heavy. So for certain things, shopping local isn't going to happen, and Amazon is my only recourse.
If things were different, and it was a matter of allowing $regular_trusted_delivery_person in my house to drop off my parcel, then I'd give it solid consideration. But when it's a delivery person I've never seen before and will never see again, who is unfortunately incentivised to rush rather than taking some care with the delivery - yeah, no. I'm not blaming the delivery people for being unreliable in this particular situation, but they are unreliable, and I'm not letting them into my house.
posted by sailoreagle at 7:58 AM on October 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
> An awful lot of the complaints in this thread are basically "I don't want this service because poorly compensated part time workers who are being timed and filmed are not giving it 110%". This seems backward to me.
I don't want this service because it seems batshit insane to me. But I also don't want to encourage employment practices that would require poorly compensated part time workers to be timed and filmed. I'm not judgmental about the workers so much as not wanting to empower their overlord in this matter.
posted by desuetude at 8:15 AM on October 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
I don't want this service because it seems batshit insane to me. But I also don't want to encourage employment practices that would require poorly compensated part time workers to be timed and filmed. I'm not judgmental about the workers so much as not wanting to empower their overlord in this matter.
posted by desuetude at 8:15 AM on October 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
I thought there was no way people would ever let amazon or Google put a listening device in their homes. I don't understand people.
Yes, an Apple or Android listening device is much more convenient, and can be kept with you 24/7 instead of only being in one place in your house. Apple just launched the new iPhone X listening device and it looks pretty sweet.
posted by Autumnheart at 9:36 AM on October 27, 2017
Yes, an Apple or Android listening device is much more convenient, and can be kept with you 24/7 instead of only being in one place in your house. Apple just launched the new iPhone X listening device and it looks pretty sweet.
posted by Autumnheart at 9:36 AM on October 27, 2017
That's why I got one of these things and recorded, "OK, Google, Siri, show me pictures of teratomas" to play when anyone walks in my door.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:53 AM on October 27, 2017
posted by ernielundquist at 10:53 AM on October 27, 2017
Autumnheart: Apple's actually very good with privacy, and most of their data analysis never leaves the device. Siri data is processed in the cloud, which is a potential concern, but it's easily turned off.
Apps that you give access to your microphone, though, can record and upload sound while they're running, even in the background. Facebook abused this in their iOS app for years, which is one of the reasons I refuse to install it.
posted by SansPoint at 12:12 PM on October 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Apps that you give access to your microphone, though, can record and upload sound while they're running, even in the background. Facebook abused this in their iOS app for years, which is one of the reasons I refuse to install it.
posted by SansPoint at 12:12 PM on October 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
LMFAO.
Popular New Amazon Service Just Comes To Your House And Kills You
(The Onion)
posted by Autumnheart at 1:37 PM on October 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
Popular New Amazon Service Just Comes To Your House And Kills You
(The Onion)
posted by Autumnheart at 1:37 PM on October 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
UPS will let you redirect a shipment to a UPS store or distribution facility for free as long as you have a tracking number and the original delivery address matches your UPS account.
Oh, I know that you're supposed to be able to do this. One time I tried this, and the driver had not accurately communicated with the system in some way, and it ended up taking three trips to the pick-up location to sort it out. Another time, the package was routed to a pick-up location that only had a fifteen minute window for customers to come pick it up, and was not in an area accessible by bus.
I have never found a way to consistently get my packages if I'm not home, sitting at the front window all day and watching for the delivery person to arrive so I can dart out and snatch the package.
I probably won't get this lock because it's too expensive and I don't like the internet-of-shit, but it does address a REAL problem for some customers and I think that A STRANGER!!! IN MY HOUSE!!! reaction is a bit overblown.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:49 AM on October 28, 2017
Oh, I know that you're supposed to be able to do this. One time I tried this, and the driver had not accurately communicated with the system in some way, and it ended up taking three trips to the pick-up location to sort it out. Another time, the package was routed to a pick-up location that only had a fifteen minute window for customers to come pick it up, and was not in an area accessible by bus.
I have never found a way to consistently get my packages if I'm not home, sitting at the front window all day and watching for the delivery person to arrive so I can dart out and snatch the package.
I probably won't get this lock because it's too expensive and I don't like the internet-of-shit, but it does address a REAL problem for some customers and I think that A STRANGER!!! IN MY HOUSE!!! reaction is a bit overblown.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:49 AM on October 28, 2017
I wouldn't care a bit if people just did things like this themselves. That's none of my business.
But that defensiveness right there is what bugs me, and it seems to happen every time people adopt some new invasive technology or system.
People justify their choices by accusing abstainers of overreacting and being hysterical or ignorant or paranoid or whatever, which is clearly implied when your summary of their position includes capslock and eight exclamation points.
That's one major reason there's such a vast, expansive internet of shit (and shit internet) in the first place, because people who object to the overreaches and intrusions on their privacy are cast as silly, panicky, ignorant, or even mentally ill.
Allowing strangers and monitoring devices into your home is a pretty big deal. It's not crazy or stupid to draw a line at that sort of thing.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:23 AM on October 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
But that defensiveness right there is what bugs me, and it seems to happen every time people adopt some new invasive technology or system.
People justify their choices by accusing abstainers of overreacting and being hysterical or ignorant or paranoid or whatever, which is clearly implied when your summary of their position includes capslock and eight exclamation points.
That's one major reason there's such a vast, expansive internet of shit (and shit internet) in the first place, because people who object to the overreaches and intrusions on their privacy are cast as silly, panicky, ignorant, or even mentally ill.
Allowing strangers and monitoring devices into your home is a pretty big deal. It's not crazy or stupid to draw a line at that sort of thing.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:23 AM on October 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
That's one major reason there's such a vast, expansive internet of shit (and shit internet) in the first place, because people who object to the overreaches and intrusions on their privacy are cast as silly, panicky, ignorant, or even mentally ill.
Pffft. GIVE ME CONVENIENCE OR GIVE ME DEATH
posted by flabdablet at 9:34 AM on October 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Pffft. GIVE ME CONVENIENCE OR GIVE ME DEATH
posted by flabdablet at 9:34 AM on October 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Amazon Key Flaw Could Let Rogue Deliverymen Disable Your Camera (Andy Greenberg for Wired, Nov. 16, 2017)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:57 AM on November 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
WHEN AMAZON LAUNCHED its Amazon Key service last month, it also offered a remedy for anyone—realistically, most people—who might be creeped out that the service gives random strangers unfettered access to your home. That security antidote? An internet-enabled camera called Cloud Cam, designed to sit opposite your door and reassuringly record every Amazon Key delivery.Emphasis mine.
But now security researchers have demonstrated that with a simple program run from any computer in Wi-Fi range, that camera can be not only disabled but frozen. A viewer watching its live or recorded stream sees only a closed door, even as their actual door is opened and someone slips inside. That attack would potentially enable rogue delivery people to stealthily steal from Amazon customers, or otherwise invade their inner sanctum.
...
That so-called deauth technique isn't exactly a software bug in Cloud Cam. It's an issue for practically all Wi-Fi devices, one that allows anyone to spoof a command from a Wi-Fi router that temporarily kicks a device off the network. In this case, Rhino's script sends the command again and again, to keep the camera offline as long as the script is running. Most disturbingly, Amazon's camera doesn't respond to that attack by going dark or alerting the user that the camera is offline. Instead, it continues to show any live viewer—or anyone watching back a recording—the last frame the camera saw when it was connected.
...
"We currently notify customers if the camera is offline for an extended period," Amazon said in a statement. "Later this week we will deploy an update to more quickly provide notifications if the camera goes offline during delivery."
...
"Every delivery driver passes a comprehensive background check that is verified by Amazon before they can make in-home deliveries, every delivery is connected to a specific driver, and before we unlock the door for a delivery, Amazon verifies that the correct driver is at the right address, at the intended time," the company's statement reads.
...
Rhino's researchers also point out that when their attack kicks a Cloud Cam off the network, it also disconnects the Amazon Key lock on the door, too. That's because the lock doesn't actually have its own internet connection. Instead, it communicates via the Zigbee wireless protocol to the Cloud Cam, which acts as its connection to the Wi-Fi router and the rest of the internet.
The researchers argue that this could enable a separate attack as well. In that scenario, a hacker follows an Amazon delivery person around and waits for them to make a delivery. Just as they're closing the door to leave, the hacker triggers the deauth command, knocking Amazon Key offline and preventing the door from locking. When the delivery person leaves, the hacker then breaks into the home through the unlocked door.
...
Anything short of a compete fix, [Ben Caudill, the founder of the Seattle-based security firm Rhino Security Labs] says, will only have even more serious implications as Amazon opens up Amazon Key to other services in the coming months. The company has said it plans to integrate the feature with cleaning service Merry Maids, dog-walking service Rover, and more.
In the meantime, wary users should consider setting up another, separate security camera as a backup for Amazon's Cloud Cam. They could, hypothetically, place a clock or other moving object in the frame of the Cloud Cam's view, so that any freezing of the image would become immediately apparent. Or Caudill offers a harsher but far simpler solution: "Don't use Amazon Key."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:57 AM on November 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
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posted by Miko at 7:59 AM on October 25, 2017 [139 favorites]