RAR in the classroom
November 3, 2017 6:06 PM Subscribe
The rise and decline of one college's student movement. Chris Bodenner chronicles the career of Reedies Against Racism.
(Reed College previously)
All in all, interesting. What really becomes apparent is that RAR's protests became a protest directed at the freshmen, and that's a wrongheaded direction to take things in. Because, ultimately, the freshmen knew what the curriculum at Reed was, applied to Reed, and picked up their lives to move all the way to Reed because that's what they wanted, and didn't like having their experience disrupted. It's fine to protest against the school, but if you're protesting against the students for going to the school, that's not going to get you very far
That said author at the ends comes across as rubbing his hands excitedly at the prospect that some black students at some other colleges might finally be "put in their place." I want to say that there's some odd hostility directed at this generation of college students, but the fact is that this has been the case since the 1960s, at least.
posted by deanc at 6:50 PM on November 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
That said author at the ends comes across as rubbing his hands excitedly at the prospect that some black students at some other colleges might finally be "put in their place." I want to say that there's some odd hostility directed at this generation of college students, but the fact is that this has been the case since the 1960s, at least.
posted by deanc at 6:50 PM on November 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
But that doesn't change the fact that Hum is about establishing a basic literacy with regards to the fundamentals of philosophy and religion.
So, uh, are you actually making the argument here that, say, sub-Saharan Africa or pre-colonization Australia lacked religion until the West kindly came along to provide it the fundamentals?
Further, I know you've engaged in that little sleight-of-hand of redefining Hum 110's subject of study as "Eurasia," but it's not, meaning that you've basically excluded huge swathes of the world from contributing to the "philosophical basis of major political and religious thought" which you argue that Hum 110 represents the study of. Are you genuinely under the impression that, e.g., China spent most of its history under the intellectual sway of the ancient Greeks?
It always amazes me how the people who speak most loudly about a broad "universal" education can betray such ignorance of what a really global education would actually look like. There can be an argument made for the existence of a tradition of Western political and religious thought, and for its study, but to argue that its study would actually provide you with "basic literacy with regards to the fundamentals of philosophy and religion," goodness, I'd be embarrassed to admit out loud that I thought that. You could read every single one of the texts listed on the syllabus now (possible exception of the textbook, with which I'm not familiar, though it doesn't look like it would constitute one) and come away without even knowing that Hinduism or Buddhism existed. If that's what students end up taking away from Hum 110--that reading about twenty works of literature from one corner of the world, plus one major religious text from a separate tradition, will give you "basic literacy with regards to the fundamentals of philosophy and religion"--then it should be protested.
posted by praemunire at 7:36 PM on November 3, 2017 [24 favorites]
So, uh, are you actually making the argument here that, say, sub-Saharan Africa or pre-colonization Australia lacked religion until the West kindly came along to provide it the fundamentals?
Further, I know you've engaged in that little sleight-of-hand of redefining Hum 110's subject of study as "Eurasia," but it's not, meaning that you've basically excluded huge swathes of the world from contributing to the "philosophical basis of major political and religious thought" which you argue that Hum 110 represents the study of. Are you genuinely under the impression that, e.g., China spent most of its history under the intellectual sway of the ancient Greeks?
It always amazes me how the people who speak most loudly about a broad "universal" education can betray such ignorance of what a really global education would actually look like. There can be an argument made for the existence of a tradition of Western political and religious thought, and for its study, but to argue that its study would actually provide you with "basic literacy with regards to the fundamentals of philosophy and religion," goodness, I'd be embarrassed to admit out loud that I thought that. You could read every single one of the texts listed on the syllabus now (possible exception of the textbook, with which I'm not familiar, though it doesn't look like it would constitute one) and come away without even knowing that Hinduism or Buddhism existed. If that's what students end up taking away from Hum 110--that reading about twenty works of literature from one corner of the world, plus one major religious text from a separate tradition, will give you "basic literacy with regards to the fundamentals of philosophy and religion"--then it should be protested.
posted by praemunire at 7:36 PM on November 3, 2017 [24 favorites]
I'm a Reedie too (class of 94) and still love the place. Been following the RAR protests for a year now with pain in my heart. Most of the reporting makes it sound like obnoxious jackassery of the sort I also participated in when I was a student at Reed. (Albeit mostly off-campus, chanting "Dead men don't rape" at Andrew Dice Clay performances, etc.) But I haven't talked to the RAR folks so am trying to reserve judgement. Reed is a weird mix of very intellectual, very liberal, and very much a temple of white privilege.
I should add that Reed has a long history of protests and debates about the eurocentrism of Hum 101 going back at least 30 years. I wonder if anyone's written a good history? They've made some adjustments over the years. The whole course is kind of a problem IMHO, but it's also the center tent pole of the liberal arts education the school offers.
See also this account of Dec 2016 protests at a Reed screening of Boys Dont Cry, the queer film, centered on the complaint the film-maker was exploiting the oppression of transgender people to enrich herself. Which seems 100% bullshit to me but again, I didn't talk to the protestors.
posted by Nelson at 7:44 PM on November 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
I should add that Reed has a long history of protests and debates about the eurocentrism of Hum 101 going back at least 30 years. I wonder if anyone's written a good history? They've made some adjustments over the years. The whole course is kind of a problem IMHO, but it's also the center tent pole of the liberal arts education the school offers.
See also this account of Dec 2016 protests at a Reed screening of Boys Dont Cry, the queer film, centered on the complaint the film-maker was exploiting the oppression of transgender people to enrich herself. Which seems 100% bullshit to me but again, I didn't talk to the protestors.
posted by Nelson at 7:44 PM on November 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
So, uh, are you actually making the argument here that, say, sub-Saharan Africa or pre-colonization Australia lacked religion until the West kindly came along to provide it the fundamentals?
I'm going to say that take a quote out-of-context and following up with a disingenuous rant at the author is precisely the sort of bullshit from RAR that Reed freshmen objected to.
posted by deanc at 7:51 PM on November 3, 2017 [32 favorites]
This sounds like a complicated situation, and one that is appropriately being handled with a lot of consultation of the current freshman class. It sounds like a situation which is not in fact going to be helped by becoming a national cautionary tale via the Atlantic, WaPo, etc. I look back on the conflicts over race which occurred during my own time at a SLAC, and I feel glad that the media of the time was such that they pretty much stayed on campus, as absolutely nothing would have been helped by having a nationwide audience.
Honestly, I think that left-leaning professors should never bring this stuff to national non-specialist media, because the media is always intensely biased against left-wing students, and always treats any error or kind of shitty thing done by a bunch of nineteen-year-olds with the gravity and hostility that you'd normally reserve for, like, actions by senior political strategists. College kids, even left college kids, are sometimes kind of assholes even when their causes are basically just. Working that out is the responsibility of the student body, the faculty and the administration, not the national press. If you broadly support someone's politics, then even if they are being an asshole, you should not sic the national press on them.
In terms of left activism of this general type, one reason I really don't like seeing it adjudicated in the national media is that context is so very important. On lefty facebook pages I've observed both the willful and racist taking-out-of-context of angry or critical posts by Black activists and mean, ugly trolling by activists of many races that gets wrongly defended after the fact. It's hard to say which is which on the basis of a single Facebook post reprinted in an article.
posted by Frowner at 7:53 PM on November 3, 2017 [30 favorites]
Honestly, I think that left-leaning professors should never bring this stuff to national non-specialist media, because the media is always intensely biased against left-wing students, and always treats any error or kind of shitty thing done by a bunch of nineteen-year-olds with the gravity and hostility that you'd normally reserve for, like, actions by senior political strategists. College kids, even left college kids, are sometimes kind of assholes even when their causes are basically just. Working that out is the responsibility of the student body, the faculty and the administration, not the national press. If you broadly support someone's politics, then even if they are being an asshole, you should not sic the national press on them.
In terms of left activism of this general type, one reason I really don't like seeing it adjudicated in the national media is that context is so very important. On lefty facebook pages I've observed both the willful and racist taking-out-of-context of angry or critical posts by Black activists and mean, ugly trolling by activists of many races that gets wrongly defended after the fact. It's hard to say which is which on the basis of a single Facebook post reprinted in an article.
posted by Frowner at 7:53 PM on November 3, 2017 [30 favorites]
praemunire: did you not notice my proposed reform of bisecting Hum 110 to be Greco-Roman, followed by India-Classical Chinese? And Hum 210 to be Islamic Middle Eastern Thought/ Middle Ages though, rather than European humanities, 400-1600?
And I'm not making an argument that sub-Saharan Africa lacked religion, but let's face it, the collected folklore of Anansi has not influenced 2000 years of literature and philosophy. Before Christian and Islamic expansion, you really don't have anything that survives outside of Ethiopia/Axum/ and North Africa. In a perfect world, I'd love to examine the Punic literature of Carthage, but that does not exist for us, any more than we have much in the way of Mayan codexes to study.
The point is that Hum 110 is about the monoculture we have, not the monoculture that we wish we had. At the end, the debate is about what works to include in a two-semester lesson plan with one lecture and two conferences per week. And I do favor expanding and altering the syllabus to include more Chinese, Indian, Persian, and Arabic classics.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 7:55 PM on November 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
And I'm not making an argument that sub-Saharan Africa lacked religion, but let's face it, the collected folklore of Anansi has not influenced 2000 years of literature and philosophy. Before Christian and Islamic expansion, you really don't have anything that survives outside of Ethiopia/Axum/ and North Africa. In a perfect world, I'd love to examine the Punic literature of Carthage, but that does not exist for us, any more than we have much in the way of Mayan codexes to study.
The point is that Hum 110 is about the monoculture we have, not the monoculture that we wish we had. At the end, the debate is about what works to include in a two-semester lesson plan with one lecture and two conferences per week. And I do favor expanding and altering the syllabus to include more Chinese, Indian, Persian, and Arabic classics.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 7:55 PM on November 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
I'm with you LeRoienJaune, but curricula like Hum 101 reinforce the monoculture we have. That's what the protest is about. Maybe a school like Reed should do a bit more teaching of the multiculture we wish we had. TBH I barely recall half of the stuff I studed in Hum 101 and could have done with a little less Apuleius or Aristotle.
Are there any liberal arts schools that do a good multicultural Great Works course?
posted by Nelson at 7:59 PM on November 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Are there any liberal arts schools that do a good multicultural Great Works course?
posted by Nelson at 7:59 PM on November 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
See also this account of Dec 2016 protests at a Reed screening of Boys Dont Cry, the queer film, centered on the complaint the film-maker was exploiting the oppression of transgender people to enrich herself. Which seems 100% bullshit to me but again, I didn't talk to the protestors.
If you do read that account, it is very important to read at least about the first ten or twelve comments, since it seems pretty clear that Halberstam substantially misrepresented the film-maker's actions at the protest and the actions of the students. Halberstam also misrepresents the reception of Boys Don't Cry, which was controversial among trans men when released rather than being widely received as a wonderful, helpful portrayal - even though it was also a movie that reached a lot of cis people.
Basically, what I take from the Boys Don't Cry protest is what I also suspect to be true of the current situation: that students have a lot of good points mixed with a few bad ones, that students acted badly but so did non-students and that there is a national fondness (even on the part of self-described leftists) for ganging up on left-wing students and assuming that they are stupid, selfish and evil.
posted by Frowner at 8:20 PM on November 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
I too went to Reed, and I think I agree with Frowner here. We really don't know what's going on there at the moment--the most recent development, I think, is a no contact order from a member of the staff or faculty issued against some ~20 different students--and this kind of national news article is not going to give us enough information to have any meaningful discussion. Leave it to the folks on campus, at least when the annual fund isn't calling us up for money.
posted by one for the books at 9:05 PM on November 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by one for the books at 9:05 PM on November 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I also went to Reed, I am keeping up with some of the things that are going on through backchannels, and I am glad of Frowner's breakdown upthread because "this article sucks and speculating about student protestors in a weird malicious way sucks and Eurocentricism also sucks" is not a good comment, but it is the one I have.
much like the Evergreen shitstorms that were going on I don't think randos need to opine about this stuff in a speculation way
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 9:14 PM on November 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
much like the Evergreen shitstorms that were going on I don't think randos need to opine about this stuff in a speculation way
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 9:14 PM on November 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's interesting how many of us, myself included, have a protective reaction for Reed and the students. Worried seeing this in public because it won't be properly understood. Reed was a very important insular and protected environment for me, so much so I'm proud to identify as a Reedie. Part of what's so upsetting about these protests is many students on both sides of it don't seem to feel the safety I did. That's a loss.
posted by Nelson at 9:46 PM on November 3, 2017
posted by Nelson at 9:46 PM on November 3, 2017
I hate this kind of "political correctness has gone too far!" outrage porn, especially when it's about young kids in college, a place they are supposed to try things out. So fucking ridiculous, as Frowner said well.
When I was taking HUM 110 (1990), activism was more about the femimisn. There was some really minor disruption, but it was by other freshman. Upperclassmen coming around to disrupt it seems like some bullshit.
could have done with a little less Apuleius
Oh man Apuleius was my favorite thing from that whole ding dang course.
posted by fleacircus at 10:21 PM on November 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
When I was taking HUM 110 (1990), activism was more about the femimisn. There was some really minor disruption, but it was by other freshman. Upperclassmen coming around to disrupt it seems like some bullshit.
could have done with a little less Apuleius
Oh man Apuleius was my favorite thing from that whole ding dang course.
posted by fleacircus at 10:21 PM on November 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe some day I'll feel less protective of lefty student activists when there are just as many WHERE HAVE WE GONE WRONG WITH OUR YOUTH pieces being published about the destructive force of racist and misogynist and homophobic student activists. What we get are near- or outright sympathetic pieces about how we should understand why those students feel like they're under attack and we should really work so hard to understand them. Thirty years ago when I was a lefty student activist I was already really fucking tired of "oh no political correctness is ruining academia" aimed at me and mine and nobody was writing about the systemic force of right-wing students writing ha-ha isn't the Holocaust funny articles, and nobody was writing about asshole conservative students invading the classroom of a African American professor and demanding he explain how teaching a course on African traditional music met their definition of academic rigor. Those incidents were just disconnected little blips, just kids being kids, according to...everyone, I guess? Background noise, hardly worth mentioning! But students asking that there be, I dunno, less racism: well, clearly the world is going to hell in a handbasket, and we should really spend all our time talking about how shitty they are.
Maybe some day.
posted by rtha at 11:01 PM on November 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
Maybe some day.
posted by rtha at 11:01 PM on November 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
"this article sucks and speculating about student protestors in a weird malicious way sucks and Eurocentricism also sucks" is not a good comment, but it is the one I have
It's pretty much all I have, too. The situation sounds incredibly difficult and unpleasant and I hope they find a way to restore a better climate for everyone. Exposing difficult things to the sunlight of public exposure is always unpleasant, but probably necessary; what doesn't help is malicious and ax-grinding misuse of these stories to make a political point.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:09 AM on November 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's pretty much all I have, too. The situation sounds incredibly difficult and unpleasant and I hope they find a way to restore a better climate for everyone. Exposing difficult things to the sunlight of public exposure is always unpleasant, but probably necessary; what doesn't help is malicious and ax-grinding misuse of these stories to make a political point.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:09 AM on November 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is it a pity that Eurasia has dominated the global cultural discourse for most of human history?
It's a little bit of a derail, but to answer your question, I guess technically no, because it's not a reality that most of humanity sat around discussing primarily Eurasian culture for most of human history, and technically something cannot be a pity if it isn't even a thing in the first place.
Your later point about current availability of written resources on different cultural traditions is a valid point about something. Probably about something largely having to do with colonialism, and having a little bit to do with understanding the bases of current Western power structures. Baldwin makes the point, in "I Am Not Your Negro", that those in an oppressed group tend to understand their oppressor's culture fairly well, as a matter of survival, even while members of the privileged group may know next to nothing true about them. So one could make an instrumental, if not morally based, argument for focusing a foundations class on Western Civ, I suppose.
I have not yet read the article and so cannot comment on the actual subject of this post at this time.
posted by eviemath at 4:52 AM on November 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's a little bit of a derail, but to answer your question, I guess technically no, because it's not a reality that most of humanity sat around discussing primarily Eurasian culture for most of human history, and technically something cannot be a pity if it isn't even a thing in the first place.
Your later point about current availability of written resources on different cultural traditions is a valid point about something. Probably about something largely having to do with colonialism, and having a little bit to do with understanding the bases of current Western power structures. Baldwin makes the point, in "I Am Not Your Negro", that those in an oppressed group tend to understand their oppressor's culture fairly well, as a matter of survival, even while members of the privileged group may know next to nothing true about them. So one could make an instrumental, if not morally based, argument for focusing a foundations class on Western Civ, I suppose.
I have not yet read the article and so cannot comment on the actual subject of this post at this time.
posted by eviemath at 4:52 AM on November 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Basically, what I take from the Boys Don't Cry protest is what I also suspect to be true of the current situation: that students have a lot of good points mixed with a few bad ones, that students acted badly but so did non-students
I guess I don't really get the motivation. A screening of Boys Dont Cry where the creator's portrayal isn't questioned to activists' satisfaction is effectively a meatspace version of "someone is wrong on the internet" situation.
Write up a pamphlet, set up a table outside the screening, pass out some flyers. Maybe write some stern letters to the campus newspaper. At worst during the Q&A ask one of those "this isn't really a question; it's more of a statement" questions. The concept that you should badger the filmmaker and organizers for attention never made too much sense to me.
But, meh, college students, amirite?
posted by deanc at 5:52 AM on November 4, 2017
I guess I don't really get the motivation. A screening of Boys Dont Cry where the creator's portrayal isn't questioned to activists' satisfaction is effectively a meatspace version of "someone is wrong on the internet" situation.
Write up a pamphlet, set up a table outside the screening, pass out some flyers. Maybe write some stern letters to the campus newspaper. At worst during the Q&A ask one of those "this isn't really a question; it's more of a statement" questions. The concept that you should badger the filmmaker and organizers for attention never made too much sense to me.
But, meh, college students, amirite?
posted by deanc at 5:52 AM on November 4, 2017
I have a question, and I am going to try to phrase this as sensitively as possible because A) I haven’t been in college in 8 years and B) I only took music classes, at a small community college that had a very inclusive music program.
Secondly, in what way is this “traumatizing”? And this is where it gets dicey, because I don’t want to discount anyone’s experience, but are groups of students say, many years later, going to look back at their freshman Humanities class and have anxiety stemming from it? I’m asking because I keep seeing the words “trauma” and “traumatizing” thrown around so flagrantly these days and I can’t tell how serious to take some of the times it’s used, so I default to believing people’s experiences, whereas when I go see my therapist and she says “It sounds like you are traumatized by this event you’ve been talking about for 4 consecutive months” it carries a different meaning to me.
I (obviously) don’t go to Reed, but I have been to Reed many times (mostly for Renn Faire (or however it’s spelled) and shows) and my experiences have been very microcosmic of Portland in general, albeit from my limited, privileged point-of-view: it’s a lot of white people fetishizing non-white people as a way to be supportive of “leftist” ideologies. But then again, I’ve seen that at Lewis & Clark as well.
As just an anecdote, the last time I went to Reed was for a queer dance party, and I got hit on by a person and we talked for a bit. I ended up cutting the conversation off when he told me he had never shot 35mm, that he only worked with 120 and large formats and only did wall murals of his photos. I said I had never been able to afford a medium format camera (in the 10+ years I’ve been taking photos) and he asked me why. It kind of bothered me, but then I remembered I was at a party at a college way out of my price range.
The campus is beautiful though, and they have a nuclear reactor.
posted by gucci mane at 9:30 AM on November 4, 2017 [10 favorites]
The texts that make up the Hum 110 syllabus—from the ancient Mediterranean, Mesopotamia, Persia, and Egypt regions—are “Eurocentric,” “Caucasoid,” and thus “oppressive,” RAR leaders have stated. Hum 110 “feels like a cruel test for students of color,” one leader remarked on public radio. “It traumatized my peers.”What is the criticism of Eurocentricism describing here? The texts about those places were written by white guys, or that studying those places is Eurocentric, or is it that those places have histories wrapped up in oppression by white people? I’ve literally never learned anything significant about those regions in any schooling I’ve done (which is admittedly limited).
Secondly, in what way is this “traumatizing”? And this is where it gets dicey, because I don’t want to discount anyone’s experience, but are groups of students say, many years later, going to look back at their freshman Humanities class and have anxiety stemming from it? I’m asking because I keep seeing the words “trauma” and “traumatizing” thrown around so flagrantly these days and I can’t tell how serious to take some of the times it’s used, so I default to believing people’s experiences, whereas when I go see my therapist and she says “It sounds like you are traumatized by this event you’ve been talking about for 4 consecutive months” it carries a different meaning to me.
I (obviously) don’t go to Reed, but I have been to Reed many times (mostly for Renn Faire (or however it’s spelled) and shows) and my experiences have been very microcosmic of Portland in general, albeit from my limited, privileged point-of-view: it’s a lot of white people fetishizing non-white people as a way to be supportive of “leftist” ideologies. But then again, I’ve seen that at Lewis & Clark as well.
As just an anecdote, the last time I went to Reed was for a queer dance party, and I got hit on by a person and we talked for a bit. I ended up cutting the conversation off when he told me he had never shot 35mm, that he only worked with 120 and large formats and only did wall murals of his photos. I said I had never been able to afford a medium format camera (in the 10+ years I’ve been taking photos) and he asked me why. It kind of bothered me, but then I remembered I was at a party at a college way out of my price range.
The campus is beautiful though, and they have a nuclear reactor.
posted by gucci mane at 9:30 AM on November 4, 2017 [10 favorites]
It's a little bit of a derail, but to answer your question, I guess technically no, because it's not a reality that most of humanity sat around discussing primarily Eurasian culture for most of human history, and technically something cannot be a pity if it isn't even a thing in the first place.
This, exactly. Because:
And I'm not making an argument that sub-Saharan Africa lacked religion, but let's face it, the collected folklore of Anansi has not influenced 2000 years of literature and philosophy.
My God. What the devil do you think the sub-Saharan Africans (just to choose one particular example) were doing pre-colonization in their free time? Just staring around blankly into space? No. They had their own forms of cultural production and traditions, which would have served the functions we recognize as being served by literature and philosophy. The West may have destroyed much of that culture and many of those traditions and left much of what remains unrecognizably altered. But they were there. For more than 2000 years, they were there. That we have, in some cases, only very limited access to them now doesn't mean they don't exist for the purposes of defining "culture." That's a profoundly ahistorical view.
I'm going to say that take a quote out-of-context and following up with a disingenuous rant at the author is precisely the sort of bullshit from RAR that Reed freshmen objected to.
Nope. Not out of context. Because the real problem here is eliding the distinction between "Western culture" (insofar as that's even a useful concept) and "culture" or "civilization" generally. That was the BS tactic of cultural conservatives in the 1980s, who, now that their own party has been overrun by gibbering book-burners, can't even pretend to be offering a positive alternative and so now must content themselves with strictly negative critiques.
As the follow-up has made clear, that's an elision some people influenced by this course are still comfortable making.
The point is that Hum 110 is about the monoculture we have, not the monoculture that we wish we had. At the end, the debate is about what works to include in a two-semester lesson plan with one lecture and two conferences per week.
I guess I'm going to blow your mind by telling you that it is perfectly possible to teach the Greeks and Romans, even for two whole semesters to freshmen, and not frame them as "the fundamentals of philosophy and religion." Because that is a lie. And an evil one. I have what no one would challenge is an impeccable Western liberal arts education, which I am grateful to have gotten. I admire many of the texts in question, as both excellent in themselves and essential to the understanding of other excellent and influential texts. I am, in fact, quite worried about the ongoing vitality of classics teaching in U.S. universities. But I don't feel the need to upgrade the Iliad by pretending the other civilizations on this planet at the time were just twiddling their thumbs waiting for the West to show up and real civilization to get started. If that's what Hum 110 taught you, you were badly taught.
And, yes, I'm frankly not sure I'd adopt all of RAR's tactics or priorities. I doubt that that rather bad-faith article has given us all the context we need to understand all of it. But, as someone who genuinely does love many of the texts Hum 110 teaches, I hate to see them used in the present time to prop up the vicious old lies of imperialism and white supremacy. The Aeneid does enough of that work on its own.
P.S. We don't live in a monoculture.
posted by praemunire at 11:23 AM on November 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
This, exactly. Because:
And I'm not making an argument that sub-Saharan Africa lacked religion, but let's face it, the collected folklore of Anansi has not influenced 2000 years of literature and philosophy.
My God. What the devil do you think the sub-Saharan Africans (just to choose one particular example) were doing pre-colonization in their free time? Just staring around blankly into space? No. They had their own forms of cultural production and traditions, which would have served the functions we recognize as being served by literature and philosophy. The West may have destroyed much of that culture and many of those traditions and left much of what remains unrecognizably altered. But they were there. For more than 2000 years, they were there. That we have, in some cases, only very limited access to them now doesn't mean they don't exist for the purposes of defining "culture." That's a profoundly ahistorical view.
I'm going to say that take a quote out-of-context and following up with a disingenuous rant at the author is precisely the sort of bullshit from RAR that Reed freshmen objected to.
Nope. Not out of context. Because the real problem here is eliding the distinction between "Western culture" (insofar as that's even a useful concept) and "culture" or "civilization" generally. That was the BS tactic of cultural conservatives in the 1980s, who, now that their own party has been overrun by gibbering book-burners, can't even pretend to be offering a positive alternative and so now must content themselves with strictly negative critiques.
As the follow-up has made clear, that's an elision some people influenced by this course are still comfortable making.
The point is that Hum 110 is about the monoculture we have, not the monoculture that we wish we had. At the end, the debate is about what works to include in a two-semester lesson plan with one lecture and two conferences per week.
I guess I'm going to blow your mind by telling you that it is perfectly possible to teach the Greeks and Romans, even for two whole semesters to freshmen, and not frame them as "the fundamentals of philosophy and religion." Because that is a lie. And an evil one. I have what no one would challenge is an impeccable Western liberal arts education, which I am grateful to have gotten. I admire many of the texts in question, as both excellent in themselves and essential to the understanding of other excellent and influential texts. I am, in fact, quite worried about the ongoing vitality of classics teaching in U.S. universities. But I don't feel the need to upgrade the Iliad by pretending the other civilizations on this planet at the time were just twiddling their thumbs waiting for the West to show up and real civilization to get started. If that's what Hum 110 taught you, you were badly taught.
And, yes, I'm frankly not sure I'd adopt all of RAR's tactics or priorities. I doubt that that rather bad-faith article has given us all the context we need to understand all of it. But, as someone who genuinely does love many of the texts Hum 110 teaches, I hate to see them used in the present time to prop up the vicious old lies of imperialism and white supremacy. The Aeneid does enough of that work on its own.
P.S. We don't live in a monoculture.
posted by praemunire at 11:23 AM on November 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
Part of what's so upsetting about these protests is many students on both sides of it don't seem to feel the safety I did. That's a loss.
I'm truly not saying this as a "gotcha," because I think this is a question for every person of some privilege who felt, even in some way, protected by their university. But I think what you, and I, and many others have to ask ourselves now is whether, even at the time we were there, there were some people excluded from that safety. A well-known black feminist author went to my undergrad around the same time I was there, and left before graduation. My sense of safety there, as someone too poor to participate in much of campus culture and a loud-mouthed young woman, was always pretty conditional. I don't think I'm misinterpreting what she's written about it afterward in inferring that she didn't even have that much. That really hurts to think about, but it's also really necessary.
What is the criticism of Eurocentricism describing here? The texts about those places were written by white guys, or that studying those places is Eurocentric, or is it that those places have histories wrapped up in oppression by white people?
There is a long-standing academic tradition of teaching these texts as (at least in their time period) both the most outstanding in quality and the relevant texts for understanding all of literature, religion, philosophy, based on unconscious (or not-so-unconscious) notions of the superiority of white Western civilization. I don't think those texts have to be taught that way, but because of that history you have to be careful in approaching them. Imagine showing up in class as a freshman, being told "these are the best and most important texts, period," and seeing not a single author even from your part of the world. For, say, a Chinese citizen, such a claim might, possibly, seem more laughable than anything else. Not one of the profs could have passed an imperial examination during the Ming dynasty, after all! But imagine being taught this as a black American student by someone who thinks that, because the West later obliterated or adulterated huge swathes of African culture, there just wasn't meaningful cultural tradition of religion or philosophy or literature for millennia on the continent south of Egypt. Not just that we don't have it, but that one can simply write whatever existed out of the definition of culture.
(And, of course, the authors are all male and these books are stuffed full of the rape and murder and assorted other ill-treatments of women, which, yes, if you have female students, is indeed quite possibly going to subject some of them to trauma, but that's a problem for another post, I suppose.)
posted by praemunire at 11:42 AM on November 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm truly not saying this as a "gotcha," because I think this is a question for every person of some privilege who felt, even in some way, protected by their university. But I think what you, and I, and many others have to ask ourselves now is whether, even at the time we were there, there were some people excluded from that safety. A well-known black feminist author went to my undergrad around the same time I was there, and left before graduation. My sense of safety there, as someone too poor to participate in much of campus culture and a loud-mouthed young woman, was always pretty conditional. I don't think I'm misinterpreting what she's written about it afterward in inferring that she didn't even have that much. That really hurts to think about, but it's also really necessary.
What is the criticism of Eurocentricism describing here? The texts about those places were written by white guys, or that studying those places is Eurocentric, or is it that those places have histories wrapped up in oppression by white people?
There is a long-standing academic tradition of teaching these texts as (at least in their time period) both the most outstanding in quality and the relevant texts for understanding all of literature, religion, philosophy, based on unconscious (or not-so-unconscious) notions of the superiority of white Western civilization. I don't think those texts have to be taught that way, but because of that history you have to be careful in approaching them. Imagine showing up in class as a freshman, being told "these are the best and most important texts, period," and seeing not a single author even from your part of the world. For, say, a Chinese citizen, such a claim might, possibly, seem more laughable than anything else. Not one of the profs could have passed an imperial examination during the Ming dynasty, after all! But imagine being taught this as a black American student by someone who thinks that, because the West later obliterated or adulterated huge swathes of African culture, there just wasn't meaningful cultural tradition of religion or philosophy or literature for millennia on the continent south of Egypt. Not just that we don't have it, but that one can simply write whatever existed out of the definition of culture.
(And, of course, the authors are all male and these books are stuffed full of the rape and murder and assorted other ill-treatments of women, which, yes, if you have female students, is indeed quite possibly going to subject some of them to trauma, but that's a problem for another post, I suppose.)
posted by praemunire at 11:42 AM on November 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
That we have, in some cases, only very limited access to them now doesn't mean they don't exist for the purposes of defining "culture."
But it does make them a lot more difficult to study.
posted by Naberius at 11:42 AM on November 4, 2017
But it does make them a lot more difficult to study.
posted by Naberius at 11:42 AM on November 4, 2017
But it does make them a lot more difficult to study.
The fact that some people don't seem to be able to distinguish between the framing of reading classics and the Bible as "we are studying great works that were influential in Western civilization, representing two traditions among many, which have succeeded in preserving more of their texts than most" and "we are studying the fundamentals of philosophy and literature" makes my point for me more eloquently than I ever could. I genuinely find it shocking that the distinction needs to be explained in 2017. The whole point (well, an important point) of mandatory freshman classes is to teach them that the customs of their tribe are not natural law.
posted by praemunire at 11:52 AM on November 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
The fact that some people don't seem to be able to distinguish between the framing of reading classics and the Bible as "we are studying great works that were influential in Western civilization, representing two traditions among many, which have succeeded in preserving more of their texts than most" and "we are studying the fundamentals of philosophy and literature" makes my point for me more eloquently than I ever could. I genuinely find it shocking that the distinction needs to be explained in 2017. The whole point (well, an important point) of mandatory freshman classes is to teach them that the customs of their tribe are not natural law.
posted by praemunire at 11:52 AM on November 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Thanks for answering my question praemunire! I was thrown off because of the locations mentioned in the article (since Persia is decidedly not Europe).
posted by gucci mane at 2:13 PM on November 4, 2017
posted by gucci mane at 2:13 PM on November 4, 2017
I think the most radical thing I did in college was to refuse to cross a picket line in order to attend classes (union kid), so reading about these sustained campaigns of protest is sort of awe-inspiring. It's not my place to comment on the merits or demerits of the HUM course or the RAR protests or any of that, but I am sorry that people are in so much pain. I sincerely wish them well.
posted by xyzzy at 2:57 PM on November 4, 2017
posted by xyzzy at 2:57 PM on November 4, 2017
Is Pancho gone? What happened to Black Athena?
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:37 PM on November 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:37 PM on November 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
You know, snuffleupagus, the best memory I have of Hum 110 is that lecture.
I would have been class of '02 if I would have graduated. Nice to see so many other Reedies here. Can't say I'm surprised.
posted by liet at 4:58 PM on November 4, 2017
I would have been class of '02 if I would have graduated. Nice to see so many other Reedies here. Can't say I'm surprised.
posted by liet at 4:58 PM on November 4, 2017
"And if you don't want a classical liberal arts education, well, there's literally every other college in the USA to cater to that educational approach."
You might be surprised to learn how many other US universities require a well-rounded liberal arts education of their undergrads; Reed's distribution requirements even look rather limited compared to, say, the University of Chicago or Notre Dame. I was always under the impression that Reed's small and activist student body was what set it apart, not its curriculum.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:39 PM on November 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
You might be surprised to learn how many other US universities require a well-rounded liberal arts education of their undergrads; Reed's distribution requirements even look rather limited compared to, say, the University of Chicago or Notre Dame. I was always under the impression that Reed's small and activist student body was what set it apart, not its curriculum.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:39 PM on November 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I would have been class of '02 if I would have graduated.
Ha. Same here. (I didn't finish my thesis, wound up elsewhere.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:44 AM on November 5, 2017
Ha. Same here. (I didn't finish my thesis, wound up elsewhere.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:44 AM on November 5, 2017
Reed's distribution requirements even look rather limited compared to, say, the University of Chicago or Notre Dame.
It's somewhere in between Chicago and St. John's (being the usual point of comparison with its Great Books sequence).
Reed is ultimately a tiny, tiny college of misfits who somehow become popular in that setting. It’s a unique student culture with almost no relationship to any outside culture and I would describe it as “stifling” in a lot of ways.
I'd agree with this.
One or two strong personalities could impact the culture of the entire student body and create weird to bad situations. It was like Heathers if the nerds/misfits were running the social scene. No one was political in this way during my time (it wasn’t the cool thing) but this bullying and dominating dynamic sounds really familiar.
I'd agree with this, too. It was cliquey. There was a lot of gossip.
My sense of safety there, as someone too poor to participate in much of campus culture and a loud-mouthed young woman, was always pretty conditional.
sculpin is absolutely right about the insane white privilege and class privilege. I’m happy to hear there is a bit more diversity now.
This, I don't get quite as much, at least in terms of socializing (not access to Reed itself)...if anything, it was hip to pretend you didn't have money (until it was time to buy drugs). The Scrouge was a thing. "Loud-mouthed" feminism would've largely been a plus, socially. Maybe being political had become more popular by then. Politics were definitely center stage after 9-11. The best connected crowd when I was there were all the nascent hipsters who spent their time drinking PBR at the Lutz. There wasn't a lot of money needed until it was time for them to graduate and move to Williamsburg.
It did feel like Reed embarked on a cleanup of campus culture, at least outwardly, while I was there. They brought in Regina Mooney (a Yale-trained theologian & former minister) to replace Jim Tederman (before he Jims you) and Colin Diver (a Penn law prof, Harvard JD) to replace Kobilik, by the end. Kicked KRRC out of the basement. Cracked down on Renn Fayre, Nitrogen Day and other hijinks. They've since completed their slow neighborhood takeover along the Canyon and along 28th, getting rid of a lot of the traditional Reed Houses.
And Woodstock has changed too. The whole area has more polish. As a sign of the times, the lot the Fridge sat on has been subdivided, the old house repaired and a new one built.
When I drop by now for a quick wander through the quad and coffee at the P-dox, there's more visible diversity in a statistical sense but also a certain cultural sterility that feels different. I haven't seen any Reed Dogs in ages. The library is full. The SU is empty. There are a lot fewer kids that I'd guess were Reedies based on their style.
YMMV.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:22 AM on November 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's somewhere in between Chicago and St. John's (being the usual point of comparison with its Great Books sequence).
Reed is ultimately a tiny, tiny college of misfits who somehow become popular in that setting. It’s a unique student culture with almost no relationship to any outside culture and I would describe it as “stifling” in a lot of ways.
I'd agree with this.
One or two strong personalities could impact the culture of the entire student body and create weird to bad situations. It was like Heathers if the nerds/misfits were running the social scene. No one was political in this way during my time (it wasn’t the cool thing) but this bullying and dominating dynamic sounds really familiar.
I'd agree with this, too. It was cliquey. There was a lot of gossip.
My sense of safety there, as someone too poor to participate in much of campus culture and a loud-mouthed young woman, was always pretty conditional.
sculpin is absolutely right about the insane white privilege and class privilege. I’m happy to hear there is a bit more diversity now.
This, I don't get quite as much, at least in terms of socializing (not access to Reed itself)...if anything, it was hip to pretend you didn't have money (until it was time to buy drugs). The Scrouge was a thing. "Loud-mouthed" feminism would've largely been a plus, socially. Maybe being political had become more popular by then. Politics were definitely center stage after 9-11. The best connected crowd when I was there were all the nascent hipsters who spent their time drinking PBR at the Lutz. There wasn't a lot of money needed until it was time for them to graduate and move to Williamsburg.
It did feel like Reed embarked on a cleanup of campus culture, at least outwardly, while I was there. They brought in Regina Mooney (a Yale-trained theologian & former minister) to replace Jim Tederman (before he Jims you) and Colin Diver (a Penn law prof, Harvard JD) to replace Kobilik, by the end. Kicked KRRC out of the basement. Cracked down on Renn Fayre, Nitrogen Day and other hijinks. They've since completed their slow neighborhood takeover along the Canyon and along 28th, getting rid of a lot of the traditional Reed Houses.
And Woodstock has changed too. The whole area has more polish. As a sign of the times, the lot the Fridge sat on has been subdivided, the old house repaired and a new one built.
When I drop by now for a quick wander through the quad and coffee at the P-dox, there's more visible diversity in a statistical sense but also a certain cultural sterility that feels different. I haven't seen any Reed Dogs in ages. The library is full. The SU is empty. There are a lot fewer kids that I'd guess were Reedies based on their style.
YMMV.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:22 AM on November 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
And OMG they banned smoking in the SU! (Not that anyone pays attention to the rule.) Olde Reed is truely dead.
The biggest cultural change I've seen as an alum is a significant improvement in graduation rate. I graduated in 1994, when 4-year graduation rate was 46%. It's now 68%. 6-year rate is up from 66% to 78%. No offense to the non-graduates here, or famous non-graduates like Steve Jobs. But for a lot of parents investing $70k a year in their kid's college they damn well better graduate or the money was wasted.
Back on topic, I was going to follow up with some statistics about Reed's historical diversity metrics. Only I can't find any? That seems a curious omission. Here's some 2013 demographics for students. And a heartfelt diversity progress report from last year, in response to earlier RAR protests.
FWIW I've given up on institutions like Reed ever having meaningful diversity, particularly socio-economic. IMHO the entire concept of a $70k/year liberal arts education is exclusionary on the face of it. Reed's will never be rich enough to go the way of Harvard / Stanford where you can guarantee full free rides to meet diversity goals. In the past I've been a significant donor to the college but have told them I'm unlikely to donate at large scale again because their economics just make no sense any more. From an "invest my charitable donations" point of view I think higher education money is better spent at "value" schools. OTOH the only folks doing that well in the US are state-funded institutions and they have other problems.
PS: praemunire's point about not everyone feeling safe at Reed even in the magical Olde Reed days of my memory is absolutely true and I wanted to acknowledge my own nearsightedness on the topic. For me Reed was the place where I could be myself: gay, intellectual, and liberal. But some of my friends from the 90s felt significantly unsafe. Women particularly, also people who felt like outsiders because of wealth and class. I would comment on folks from racial minorities because honestly there were so few I can't generalize.
posted by Nelson at 6:53 AM on November 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
The biggest cultural change I've seen as an alum is a significant improvement in graduation rate. I graduated in 1994, when 4-year graduation rate was 46%. It's now 68%. 6-year rate is up from 66% to 78%. No offense to the non-graduates here, or famous non-graduates like Steve Jobs. But for a lot of parents investing $70k a year in their kid's college they damn well better graduate or the money was wasted.
Back on topic, I was going to follow up with some statistics about Reed's historical diversity metrics. Only I can't find any? That seems a curious omission. Here's some 2013 demographics for students. And a heartfelt diversity progress report from last year, in response to earlier RAR protests.
FWIW I've given up on institutions like Reed ever having meaningful diversity, particularly socio-economic. IMHO the entire concept of a $70k/year liberal arts education is exclusionary on the face of it. Reed's will never be rich enough to go the way of Harvard / Stanford where you can guarantee full free rides to meet diversity goals. In the past I've been a significant donor to the college but have told them I'm unlikely to donate at large scale again because their economics just make no sense any more. From an "invest my charitable donations" point of view I think higher education money is better spent at "value" schools. OTOH the only folks doing that well in the US are state-funded institutions and they have other problems.
PS: praemunire's point about not everyone feeling safe at Reed even in the magical Olde Reed days of my memory is absolutely true and I wanted to acknowledge my own nearsightedness on the topic. For me Reed was the place where I could be myself: gay, intellectual, and liberal. But some of my friends from the 90s felt significantly unsafe. Women particularly, also people who felt like outsiders because of wealth and class. I would comment on folks from racial minorities because honestly there were so few I can't generalize.
posted by Nelson at 6:53 AM on November 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
No offense to the non-graduates here, or famous non-graduates like Steve Jobs. But for a lot of parents investing $70k a year in their kid's college they damn well better graduate or the money was wasted.
None taken, at least here.
I'm more offended that they felt comfortable taking four plus years of tuition from my family before giving me the axe -- at the behest of my erstwhile thesis advisor -- because I tried to write a thesis that shouldn't have been authorized. Twice. But, it turns out Reed does have rules and can be remarkably legalistic when it's convenient. Including that two-strikes policy.
I still value the education, but that decision of theirs had a pretty serious and dramatic impact on my life-course -- and earnings potential, given that it wound up requiring me to more or less repeat undergrad elsewhere, delaying my entry to grad school until after the 2008 collapse. I'm in a pretty different situation than most of my age cohort. Which is now getting strange socially, too.
All that to say, if they needed to be more square to be less of a mess, I guess it's a good thing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:56 AM on November 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
None taken, at least here.
I'm more offended that they felt comfortable taking four plus years of tuition from my family before giving me the axe -- at the behest of my erstwhile thesis advisor -- because I tried to write a thesis that shouldn't have been authorized. Twice. But, it turns out Reed does have rules and can be remarkably legalistic when it's convenient. Including that two-strikes policy.
I still value the education, but that decision of theirs had a pretty serious and dramatic impact on my life-course -- and earnings potential, given that it wound up requiring me to more or less repeat undergrad elsewhere, delaying my entry to grad school until after the 2008 collapse. I'm in a pretty different situation than most of my age cohort. Which is now getting strange socially, too.
All that to say, if they needed to be more square to be less of a mess, I guess it's a good thing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:56 AM on November 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's discussion of the history of Hum at Reed, and some interesting visualizations of the syllabus' coverage in here:
On the Humanities at Reed College (July 2016, via Some Essays Letters & Complaints)
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:32 AM on November 5, 2017
On the Humanities at Reed College (July 2016, via Some Essays Letters & Complaints)
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:32 AM on November 5, 2017
I regret not graduating -- I had a tough junior year due to illness, took my senior year off to work, and never went back. But I still (mostly) treasure my time at Reed. The class structure prepared me well for my career as a designer, where a big part of the job is arguing in meetings and being able to advocate for your point. In my field, the actual degree is almost worthless -- at most studios, your experience is far more important than your formal education. I've only worked at one place that "required" a degree, and I got in anyway.
And, to be fair, it was only a waste of $35k a year when I was there. Heh. I'm sure I could have gotten similar classroom debate experience in a lot of other places for a lot less, but I still feel a lot of pride in having gone to "the most liberal college in the country." And I know I got lucky ending up in an industry that doesn't care.
posted by liet at 10:02 AM on November 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
And, to be fair, it was only a waste of $35k a year when I was there. Heh. I'm sure I could have gotten similar classroom debate experience in a lot of other places for a lot less, but I still feel a lot of pride in having gone to "the most liberal college in the country." And I know I got lucky ending up in an industry that doesn't care.
posted by liet at 10:02 AM on November 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Fox News story on a now-12-day occupation of Reed's President's office. Cites a Washington Times article from the day before. They're both reasonably neutral factual articles but clearly the right wing media is now on the story so this is gonna be a joy.
posted by Nelson at 6:52 AM on November 6, 2017
posted by Nelson at 6:52 AM on November 6, 2017
Why Everyone Should Learn About Western Civilization, should you want the traditionalist defense of the Hum 110 curriculum. My Michelle Nijhuis.
posted by Nelson at 7:57 PM on November 8, 2017
posted by Nelson at 7:57 PM on November 8, 2017
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Traditionally, Hum goes from the pre-Ionian philosophers and ends with St. Augustine (a Romano-African).
OTOH, as an alum, I don't mind the idea of revising Hum 110 to be 1 semester classical greco-roman literature, and 1 semester India/Chinese classical literature (Bhagavad Gita, Analects, Romance of the Three Kingdoms). Likewise, I favor more diversity in the offerings in history/ anthropology, literature, etc.
As for Arabic and Islamic thought, that should be the first semester of Hum 210.
But the idea of Hum 110 is to give the student body a grounding in classical thought, a basic familiarity with the philosophical basis of major political and religious thought. Is it a pity that Eurasia has dominated the global cultural discourse for most of human history? Certainly. But that doesn't change the fact that Hum is about establishing a basic literacy with regards to the fundamentals of philosophy and religion.
Reed, along with St. John's, distinguishes itself academically with the philosophy that all students at Reed should received a balanced liberal arts education. That includes Hum 110, but also a language/math, science, social science, and arts requirement, along with qualifying for your major and your senior thesis. It's not like other schools where you can get away with never studying any topic outside of your major. That's the point.
To reject Hum 110 is to reject the notion of value in the study in the thinkers that are the firmament of the intellectual discourse of Western society. And if you don't want a classical liberal arts education, well, there's literally every other college in the USA to cater to that educational approach.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 6:49 PM on November 3, 2017 [25 favorites]