It's a great day for America, everybody!
November 10, 2017 5:53 PM   Subscribe

Day 295: the light at the end of the tunnel is visible, as the Democratic wave starts sweeping elections across America, including the Deep South. Attention turns to the special senate election in Alabama next month, where jerk-off Republican candidate Roy Moore is facing unexpected allegations of child predation. As of posting, Trump is currently touring Asia, representing America and definitely not getting orders from Putin in a secure, untraceable manner how could you think that there is no collusion. [This is your catch-all U.S. politics thread, for things not related to the recent elections or Roy Moore.]

posted by Merus (2473 comments total) 106 users marked this as a favorite
 
It's a great day for America, everybody!
(In this Darkest Timeline, oh how I miss CraigyFerg's The Late Late Show.)
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 5:57 PM on November 10, 2017 [49 favorites]


This probably isn't necessary, as Flynn is reportedly frightened enough by the prospect of both he and his son going to jail for decades. But still.

Then maybe he should have thought about that before getting together in a conspiracy to commit cold blooded murder.

Much as Gulen worked hard to earn being abducted, murdered and disposed of in a landfill, it's a bitof a violation of the sovereignty of the US to have it start here.
posted by ocschwar at 6:00 PM on November 10, 2017 [10 favorites]


I'd like to endorse Craig's book, American on Purpose. He's an immigrant and a genuine patriot of the United States.
posted by adept256 at 6:01 PM on November 10, 2017 [18 favorites]


Thank you for the link to the Popehat transcript. I enjoyed that.
posted by miguelcervantes at 6:08 PM on November 10, 2017 [5 favorites]


I'd like to endorse Carter Page's book, Everything I Need To Know I Failed to Learn, but it's not out yet.
posted by uosuaq at 6:09 PM on November 10, 2017 [48 favorites]


I'd like to endorse Carter Page's book, Everything I Need To Know I Failed to Learn, but it's not out yet.

I have a feeling if Metafilter offered to crowdsourceghostwrite it, he'd agree.
posted by ocschwar at 6:18 PM on November 10, 2017 [6 favorites]


God I hadn't read the Carter Page transcript (the real one) before, but wow. Halfway through I realized I was hearing it all in the voice of Spud from Trainspotting (specifically, Spud's voice during his job interview while on speed). Try it!
posted by mabelstreet at 6:19 PM on November 10, 2017 [26 favorites]


By jove; events over the past few days have, for a pleasant change, been both marvellous and splendid. Jolly well done, voters in the Western Colonies! One is considering re-engaging more with matters political in those distant lands, and not just for the spectacle of cacaesthesia spreading through the Republican voting coalition and the taradiddle currently eminating from their Alabama representatives. Tally ho!
posted by Wordshore at 6:27 PM on November 10, 2017 [22 favorites]


If you read Trainspotting, the chapters in Spud's first-person are spelled the way he talks. It's a pity I'm not very familiar with the Cyrillic alphabet.
posted by adept256 at 6:29 PM on November 10, 2017 [3 favorites]


Here, have this MMMBop

Hot dang but I didn't realize how much I miss Craig Ferguson. Thank you!
posted by curious nu at 6:33 PM on November 10, 2017 [5 favorites]


Is this the new Scotland thread?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:35 PM on November 10, 2017 [11 favorites]


Here, have this MMMBop

That was the perfect antidote to all things Trump. Temporarily of course but I'll take it!

Trying to remember the name of Wavy the alligator, I found this page which was obviously created by weirdos
posted by petebest at 6:37 PM on November 10, 2017 [5 favorites]


Gotta say Danica Roem is cutting a trail so many should follow, despite it's political nature. As I have been seing on Twitter, she completely refuses to say a single bad thing about (soon to be ex)opponent, and has even dropped into fan threads to correct people she felt weren't showing him adequate respect.

Lovely that.

Also, my favorite Craig Ferguson was vampire Craig Ferguson.
posted by Samizdata at 6:37 PM on November 10, 2017 [16 favorites]


Trump’s Voter Fraud Commission Is Being Sued by One of Its Commissioners: Maine’s secretary of state says the commission violates federal law and he’s being kept in the dark about its activities.

We Can't Ignore the Latest Lawsuit Against Trump's Kangaroo Voting Commission. The assault on voting rights is getting messy.
posted by homunculus at 6:40 PM on November 10, 2017 [39 favorites]


Okay, so back to Chester Arthur....
posted by Chrysostom at 6:41 PM on November 10, 2017 [15 favorites]


Okay, so back to Chester Arthur....

Chester A. Arthur, I believe you mean?

Don't fact check, you could end up with fake news.
posted by Samizdata at 6:47 PM on November 10, 2017 [1 favorite]


AUGH as usual I'm like "Oh good, the thread calmed down!" but it DIDN'T, there's a NEW THREAD
(Thanks, Merus!)
posted by mynameisluka at 6:48 PM on November 10, 2017 [11 favorites]


Okay, so back to Chester Arthur....

The ex-president's Wikipedia entry says that “The family's frequent moves later spawned accusations that Chester Arthur was not a native-born citizen of the United States. When Arthur was nominated for vice president in 1880, a New York attorney and political opponent, Arthur P. Hinman, initially speculated that Arthur was born in Ireland and did not come to the United States until he was fourteen years old... When Hinman's original story did not take root, he spread a new rumor that Arthur was born in Canada."

The more things change...
posted by LeLiLo at 6:49 PM on November 10, 2017 [32 favorites]


So I'm still thinking about this article:

Vanity Fair: How Trump Bought The Political Media Class To Its Knees

...and because one of my reflexive lenses is through games, I'm wondering if it's worth setting up a leaderboard of some kind, of White House correspondents based on how often they ask good questions. If they ask a 'good' question, defining good in some way (e.g. they ask about something important, they follow-up someone else's question, they follow-up on a White House promise that's relevant), they get a point. If they ask any other kind of question, they lose a point, and if they don't ask a question, no change.
posted by Merus at 6:54 PM on November 10, 2017 [28 favorites]


Checking a few political forums one has not set eyes on for a while and there does indeed feel like a renewed and invigorating sense that the high office days of the rampallion may come to a conclusion eftsoons the mid term elections, if not before.
posted by Wordshore at 7:01 PM on November 10, 2017 [6 favorites]


Overall, it's been a pretty ok week for us on Team Progress here in Virginia, but my regressive coworkers have been saying things more odious than usual during the latter half of the week, with the schism of the Commonwealth into the states of Northern and Southern Virginia being one of the less unhinged and violent proposals. I hope it's merely the venting of frustration at the electoral shellacking earlier in the week.

Sadly, the conversational lead-up to to everything from secession to pogrom has been pretty ubiquitous: "Did you hear they elected a transgender?"

I know I'm not telling you folks anything we don't already know but, we've got a long, long fight ahead of us. Stay strong.
posted by glonous keming at 7:01 PM on November 10, 2017 [66 favorites]


glonous keming

your username just made me so outraged that i became momentarily breathless with fury

well done indeed
posted by poffin boffin at 7:05 PM on November 10, 2017 [177 favorites]


Sadly, the conversational lead-up to to everything from secession to pogrom has been pretty ubiquitous: "Did you hear they elected a transgender?"

Completely unsurprising. The comments in the WP and other online newspapers started at the "I'm just askin'" level and went down from there.

The sheer amount of hysteria of trans people is just...I dunno. There's just something very weird and sad about Americans and gender essentialism.
posted by happyroach at 7:10 PM on November 10, 2017 [17 favorites]


Merus and because one of my reflexive lenses is through games, I'm wondering if it's worth setting up a leaderboard of some kind, of White House correspondents based on how often they ask good questions.

I think it sounds like a good idea.

It'd be useful just to have the data, and heck it might even influence their behavior if it became popular enough. We have points and scores and leaderboards because people find that sort of thing compelling and it kicks in our competitive instincts.

I'd also recommend, like in basketball, counting assists. When a journalist helps another try to penetrate the dodging and obfuscation by using their question to follow up or simply re-ask one that the spox dodged from one of their colleagues is something that should count for a lot.

I'd kick in some money to help start the website, and while my coding is sub-par and I'm sure you could find someone better if you can't I'd volunteer to try and build the backend.
posted by sotonohito at 7:12 PM on November 10, 2017 [16 favorites]


Look if they're going to work together I'd rather they just boycott the propaganda rally rather than participate in this cult.
posted by adept256 at 7:16 PM on November 10, 2017 [3 favorites]


I don't really see the point in gamifying it or of the White House Press Briefings in general. The only useful purpose they serve under Trump is trying to get the Press Secretary tongue-tied enough that they say something awful, and Sanders is marginally better at keeping it together enough to avoid randomly engaging in Holocaust denial. If the press really does gang up on her, she just calls on John Gizzi, or Goyal if she's really desperate, and then declares the briefing over.
posted by zachlipton at 7:18 PM on November 10, 2017 [2 favorites]


Merus: " The army is declaring its mission over, and the head of the Emergency Management Agency has resigned. Large parts of the island are still without power. 140,000 Puerto Ricans have relocated to Florida, which Trump won by about 115,000."

If the next Democratic presidential candidate takes Florida by 140K I'm going to laugh my ass off.
posted by Mitheral at 7:22 PM on November 10, 2017 [47 favorites]


What is interesting is that, reportedly, this kind of charge makes it easier for Mueller, if he so chooses, to declare the entire administration a criminal enterprise, even if Russian collusion can't be proven.
Can somebody explain this to me? How does this work?
posted by gucci mane at 7:25 PM on November 10, 2017 [3 favorites]


I ate the cake anyway.

From the bottom of the last thread:

I just realized that Johnstown, in PA, of the recent stories, is the same place a friend of mine grew up.

Stephen Miller's family is from Johnstown. I know this because BuzzFeed has Facebook comments from his liberal family there, mortified of what he became. "At least he doesn't share our last name."
posted by Room 641-A at 7:27 PM on November 10, 2017 [13 favorites]


NYT, A London Meeting of an Unlikely Group: How a Trump Adviser Came to Learn of Clinton ‘Dirt’
At midday on March 24, 2016, an improbable group gathered in a London cafe to discuss setting up a meeting between Donald J. Trump, then a candidate, and President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia.

There was George Papadopoulos, a 28-year-old from Chicago with an inflated résumé who just days earlier had been publicly named as a foreign policy adviser to Mr. Trump’s campaign. There was Joseph Mifsud, a Maltese academic in his mid-50s with a faltering career who boasted of having high-level contacts in the Russian government.

And, perhaps most mysteriously, there was Olga Polonskaya, a 30-year-old Russian from St. Petersburg and the former manager of a wine distribution company. Mr. Mifsud introduced her to Mr. Papadopoulos as Mr. Putin’s niece, according to court papers. Mr. Putin has no niece.
A good look at some of the background to the Papadopoulos indictment and some incredibly suspicious figures. We also learn that Papadopoulos was in regular contact with Stephen Miller about Russia during the campaign and that Papadopoulos, who supposedly was a coffee boy with no responsibilities, helped edit a foreign policy speech for Trump.
posted by zachlipton at 7:29 PM on November 10, 2017 [8 favorites]


See also Josh Marshall's take on the above: Stephen Miller May Have Some Problems
posted by zachlipton at 7:36 PM on November 10, 2017 [13 favorites]


I immediately knew Papadopoulus wasn't a mere "coffee boy" because a throwback dinosaur misogynist like Trump would want his coffee made and served to him by a woman.

A Meredith, if available.
posted by glonous keming at 7:41 PM on November 10, 2017 [20 favorites]


I'd also recommend, like in basketball, counting assists. When a journalist helps another try to penetrate the dodging and obfuscation by using their question to follow up or simply re-ask one that the spox dodged from one of their colleagues is something that should count for a lot.

Having an incentive for assists is the big reason for doing this: the article goes into how journalists have an incentive to ask an exclusive question, so the press secretary can just lie, secure in the knowledge that it's not worth the next questioner to call them on it.

I'd kick in some money to help start the website, and while my coding is sub-par and I'm sure you could find someone better if you can't I'd volunteer to try and build the backend.

The code's definitely within my wheelhouse, but there's nuances to the US political system that I don't grasp.

I don't really see the point in gamifying it or of the White House Press Briefings in general. The only useful purpose they serve under Trump is trying to get the Press Secretary tongue-tied enough that they say something awful, and Sanders is marginally better at keeping it together enough to avoid randomly engaging in Holocaust denial. If the press really does gang up on her, she just calls on John Gizzi, or Goyal if she's really desperate, and then declares the briefing over.

I think that's the problem: they're treated as useful when they're mostly not. If Sanders' response to a press corp that has found their spines is to stop press briefings, then that's useful in and of itself because they can't pretend that's normal or transparent.
posted by Merus at 7:42 PM on November 10, 2017 [3 favorites]


Miller is yet another tie to Sessions. I don't see how Sessions survives all this.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:42 PM on November 10, 2017 [13 favorites]


Is there one thing about Russia the Trump folks have told the truth about? I mean, everything from "no Russia contacts" to "firing Comey had nothing to do with the Russia investigation" to Papadopoulos was an unimportant "coffee boy" has been rapidly proven to be utterly false. I know these people lie a lot, but every damn thing here has been a lie.
posted by zachlipton at 7:54 PM on November 10, 2017 [8 favorites]


Presuming for a moment that the Congress and DOJ and Special Counsel's office do their due diligence, I would expect to see guilty pleas or convictions on Sessions, Page, Manafort, Miller, Kushner, Flynn Daddy, Cohen, Flynn Baby, Gates, Rohrabacher, Trump Jr., and Nunes at a minimum. Pence and Trump would be unindicted co-conspirators subject to impeachment.

The reality, of course, will probably be less satisfying.
posted by xyzzy at 7:55 PM on November 10, 2017 [19 favorites]


My favourite Craig Ferguson is They Might Be Giants Craig Ferguson.
Carry on.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 8:04 PM on November 10, 2017 [22 favorites]


I think it would be nice if Sessions gets indicted the day after his old senate seat is won by Doug Jones.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:13 PM on November 10, 2017 [66 favorites]


Thanks for the new thread. A general reminder and request from the older threads: When providing links in comments, please provide some context (e.g. article title, author, or source). It's nice to know what it is I'm clicking on and who's getting my click.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 8:14 PM on November 10, 2017 [11 favorites]


Russ Choma, Mother Jones: Republicans Say They’ve Got to Act on Tax Reform—or Donors Might Get Mad
Everyone knows politicians pay excessive attention to the demands of their campaign donors. But if you’re a politician, you’re not supposed to actually say that publicly.

Yet so far this week, two Republican politicians have done exactly that.

“My donors are basically saying, ‘Get it done or don’t ever call me again,'” Rep. Chris Collins (R-N.Y.) told The Hill on Tuesday when asked about the GOP’s tax reform package.

On Thursday, Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-S.C.) followed with his own unusually frank comment:
"Lindsey Graham says 'the financial contributions will stop' if tax reform fails."
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:58 PM on November 10, 2017 [22 favorites]


Steven Rosenfeld, Alternet: We Are Now One State Closer to Having a Corporate-Dominated Constitutional Convention - "With the addition of Wisconsin, right-wingers promoting a Constitutional Convention have 28 states; they only need six more."
On Tuesday, the Wisconsin Legislature voted to call for what’s known as an Article V constitutional convention, becoming the 28th state to do so in recent years. Thirty-four states are needed, according to the nation’s founding document, to launch a process that would open up the foundation of American’s rights and laws to revision.

“Sadly, this is not fake news,” said Common Cause president Karen Hobert Flynn. “The specter of an Article V convention to rewrite the Constitution remains one of the most alarming threats to our democracy that nobody has ever heard of before.”

“The deep-pocketed special interest groups behind this effort to call a convention are not likely to stop with a single amendment when there are no rules to prevent opening up the Constitution to a full rewrite in a runaway convention,” Flynn explained. “The effort to call the convention is funded by wealthy special interest groups like the American Legislative Exchange Council that have long pushed for a broad legislative agenda in the states, and it is hard to imagine then not foisting that agenda on the Constitution itself through unelected and unaccountable delegates to the convention.”
See also:

Sorry, But American Democracy Is Still Edging Closer to Disaster - "Wisconsin became the 28th state to back a constitutional convention." ( Charles Pierce, Esquire )
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:06 PM on November 10, 2017 [40 favorites]


oh good god, a constitutional convention would be a democracy-extinction level event in this political environment. if you think rural areas are overrepresented in the House via gerrymandering or in the Senate by its very structure, imagine the damage the rural states would do if they could rewrite the entire fucking constitution!!

although, cynically, i think repubs must do this if they want to turn the US into a de facto apartheid state before demographics relegate their traitorous, reeking, garbage-ass party to the dustbin of history.
posted by wibari at 9:26 PM on November 10, 2017 [27 favorites]


Doug Mills (extraordinary NYT photographer tweets a black frame: "This what our APEC Summit photo coverage looks today in Da Nang Vietnam. Blank. No coverage by the White House Travel Pool photographers traveling with @realDonaldTrump #APEC2017 #apec"

The Post goes into more detail on the press blackout
posted by zachlipton at 9:48 PM on November 10, 2017 [13 favorites]


If the next Democratic presidential candidate takes Florida by 140K I'm going to laugh my ass off.

I mean, I get you, but it’s actually tragic, not funny, that 140K American citizens are having to relocate to be sure of survival.
posted by corb at 9:53 PM on November 10, 2017 [74 favorites]


Is there one thing about Russia the Trump folks have told the truth about?

"Putin is great, Crimea is no biggie, we should drop sanctions."
posted by Meatbomb at 10:14 PM on November 10, 2017 [1 favorite]


I really hope Zach Galifianakis gets to play one of these guys in the movie they make out of this... There's no way it can't be both factual and a comedy at this point.
posted by Nanukthedog at 10:18 PM on November 10, 2017 [6 favorites]


My favourite Craig Ferguson is They Might Be Giants Craig Ferguson yt .
Carry on.


Saw that earlier. Was going to post, but didn't. OTOH, DID sing along flawlessly.

Now earworming that damn song.
posted by Samizdata at 11:08 PM on November 10, 2017 [1 favorite]


This is pizzagate guy:

Roy Moore's Accuser's Photo and Workplace Were Spread Online by a Far-Right Conspiracist (Michael Edison Hayden, Newsweek)
In a bizarre defense of Alabama Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore, who was accused of sexual activity with a 14-year-old girl, a right-wing conspiracy theorist and media star told his followers to stalk the victim at her workplace on Friday.

Jack Posobiec, a Trump supporter with a large online following, posted a recent Facebook photo of Leigh Corfman, the woman who told The Washington Post that the then-32-year-old Moore tried to bed her in 1979, and told his Twitter followers to target Corfman at her last known place of employment.

He later deleted the tweet.
I don't know much about the way modern Twitter works, so could someone please explain WHY HE STILL HAS AN ACTIVE TWITTER ACCOUNT. This is the biggest news story in the country wtf Twitter?
posted by Room 641-A at 11:42 PM on November 10, 2017 [94 favorites]


SURELY ALL THIS
posted by chavenet at 12:41 AM on November 11, 2017 [13 favorites]


The woman who was doxxed by Posobiec should sue Twitter for its total market value. Then after she owns it, it can be made into something worthwhile.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:48 AM on November 11, 2017 [91 favorites]


I don't know much about the way modern Twitter works, so could someone please explain WHY HE STILL HAS AN ACTIVE TWITTER ACCOUNT.

Twitter is run by Nazi sympathisers. They routinely ban and suspend people who criticise alt-right figures, and elevate the alt-right with special treatment like verification. Jack Dorsey, the CEO, follows Mike Cernovich, Jack Posobiec, Scott Adams, Notch, the Federalist, and Bill Mitchell, all of whom are either part of the alt-right or are on the periphery of it.
posted by Merus at 12:49 AM on November 11, 2017 [135 favorites]


I have to admit I clicked the title with some apprehension, hoping to find some Craig Ferguson goodness, but also anxious for something darker (MeToo as a sign of the times). Instead it is those other clowns and hand puppets...

wassacominago, eh?
posted by fregoli at 1:49 AM on November 11, 2017 [6 favorites]


Falwell Jr. Defends Roy Moore: ‘I Believe The Judge Is Telling The Truth’
“It comes down to a question who is more credible in the eyes of the voters — the candidate or the accuser,” Falwell Jr. told the Religion News Service in an email published Friday.
Indeed it does.
posted by Rykey at 3:26 AM on November 11, 2017 [19 favorites]


The truth that Moore pursued underage girls who couldn't consent as by his own admission he had to seek their mother's permission? Is that the truth he's talking about here?
posted by asteria at 3:40 AM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


Things have gotten so crazy we need 3 active politics threads to handle it. Surely this, right?
posted by Glibpaxman at 3:41 AM on November 11, 2017 [17 favorites]


i think what's really going to make the political shit hit the fan is if this tax bill passes and the middle class realizes how badly they've been screwed - even the trumpies are going to be hollering and screaming - it's all fun and games to them until their wallet gets pinched

we will see rage - we will see trump voters losing their shit over how they've been betrayed
posted by pyramid termite at 4:15 AM on November 11, 2017 [3 favorites]


pffft, nah, long as they can blame the IMMIGINTS.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 4:24 AM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


Whatever they can't blame immigrants for, they can write off as divine punishment for not stoning gays to death as prescribed in Leviticus or something.
posted by acb at 4:48 AM on November 11, 2017 [4 favorites]


So: Twitter. I’ve been a very active user for nine years. I have around 8K followers. I met my partner on Twitter and I’ve made many other wonderful connections there. And like all of you, I’m ever-more repulsed by the platform’s blatant fascist favoring. How I’ve got to use an enormous blockchain to make it slightly less likely frothing tiki-torchers will dominate my mentions. How Twitter conditions me to waste my time obsessively refreshing my feed and bickering with Pepes and bots. How I’ve reported and identified dozens of users blatantly violating Twitter rules by doxxing and threatening others, with nothing coming of it 99.9% of the time. I’ve been using it a lot less already - but I haven’t quite been able to give it up.

So last week I decided to do an experiment vis a vis Twitter as Nazi Trashfire: I’d try to get verified, which I had previously resisted due to privacy concerns. I sent them my employee profile page at my org at Harvard, my Slate contributor page, and my long-time personal website. I mentioned I’d been an engaged user for nine years in the extra comments box (which, you know, I’d assume they could see I’ve been a user that long).

Got an email a couple of days later: denied. Nope, Twitter won’t verify me. Just a day after they verified an Actual Nazi. Evidence is consistent with my hypothesis that Twitter is in fact a Nazi Trashfire.

My not-so-slow fade from Twitter continues. The injury it did my attention span was bad enough: catering to Nazis is the nail in the coffin.

Boy, I miss 2011, when we thought social media would make democracy better, not hand it over to Anime Twitter Nazis.
posted by faineg at 5:14 AM on November 11, 2017 [122 favorites]


“Global warming is caused by human activity... human gay activity.”- Republicans someday very soon.
posted by Glibpaxman at 5:15 AM on November 11, 2017 [3 favorites]


guys, the immigrants and the gays (and the creepy things moore does) are all a very distant second to OH MY GOD THE DAMN GOVERNMENT RAISED MY TAXES!!!!!

rage - they won't be thinking - rage
posted by pyramid termite at 5:15 AM on November 11, 2017


God I hadn't read the Carter Page transcript (the real one) before, but wow. Halfway through I realized I was hearing it all in the voice of Spud from Trainspotting (specifically, Spud's voice during his job interview while on speed). Try it!

What came to mind for me was The Whelk's memorable assertion:

I think it's important to remember every Cohen Brothers script seemingly starts with "So there's this idiot...."
posted by kersplunk at 5:33 AM on November 11, 2017 [28 favorites]


So credit card delinquencies are starting to uptick again. Normally these are signs of a weakening economy and are a pretty good predictor of upcoming recessions.

I look forward to the 180 flip of Trump congratulating himself for the "great" economy vs blaming Obama for the recession.
posted by Talez at 5:42 AM on November 11, 2017 [25 favorites]


Trump slams former US intel leaders as 'political hacks'

"I mean, give me a break, they are political hacks," Trump said, according to CNN. He was discussing the U.S. intelligence community's conclusion that Russia sought to influence the 2016 election in favor of Trump.
"So you look at it, I mean, you have Brennan, you have Clapper and you have Comey," he continued. "Comey is proven now to be a liar and he is proven now to be a leaker.”

“So you look at that and you have President Putin very strongly, vehemently says he had nothing to do with them," he continued, referring to the Russian president.

Trump said that the investigation into Russian interference in the election was a “Democratic-inspired thing” and a “pure hit job."

Trump went on to say that he wasn’t going to “argue” with Putin about whether Russia interfered in the 2016 election.

“He said he didn’t meddle, he said he didn’t meddle. I asked him again. You can only ask so many times,” Trump said, according to pool reports.

Putin: Trump did not bring up election meddling
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:12 AM on November 11, 2017 [69 favorites]


If it wasn't so depressing, it would be hilarious every time Putin trolls Trump.
posted by mumimor at 6:17 AM on November 11, 2017 [62 favorites]


"Ex-CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou was removed from a European Parliament panel at the urging of People for Bernie Sanders. Their complaint was he co-hosts a show on Sputnik Radio."
posted by jeffburdges at 6:26 AM on November 11, 2017 [1 favorite]


Save your clicks, folks. Here’s the opening line of the article jeffburdges just linked to:

“A recent incident in Belgium speaks volumes about the extent and danger of the current “Russiagate” hysteria.”

🙄
posted by Barack Spinoza at 6:29 AM on November 11, 2017 [33 favorites]


In China, Trump becomes the capitulator-in-chief: Burman

In a grovelling, fawning state visit to Beijing this week — during which Trump obtained no concessions from China on key issues such as North Korea or bilateral trade — the once-powerful president of the United States stumbled into a dramatic role reversal by emerging, incredibly, as a salivating supplicant to China’s President Xi Jinping.

---

As The New York Times noted, it was a “remarkable moment” in the modern history of U.S.-China relations in which Trump “projected an air of deference to China that was almost unheard-of for a visiting American president.” It was also notable that Xi, in response to Trump’s praise, didn’t reciprocate.

So American conservative media must be freaking out about this, right?
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:46 AM on November 11, 2017 [61 favorites]


Just checked the fox news homepage and searched the work china, one "headline" way way way down the page and it was "Trump's China visit brings $250 billion in US business deals"
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 6:52 AM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


Capitulates to China, believes Putin, attacks US IC. Tell me again about the Obama apology tour.
posted by chris24 at 7:01 AM on November 11, 2017 [94 favorites]


We've always been fawning and deferent toward Eastasia.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:03 AM on November 11, 2017 [46 favorites]


Some Republican turd keeps mentioning "Harvey Weinberg" on MSNBC.

So you look at it, I mean, you have Brennan, you have Clapper and you have Comey," he continued. "Comey is proven now to be a liar and he is proven now to be a leaker.”

Hmm.... I thought there was an unspoken rule about politicians not dissing the US when on foreign soil.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:09 AM on November 11, 2017 [8 favorites]


> So American conservative media must be freaking out about this, right?
The American conservative media revere Putin and have a secret crush on Xi. And authoritarians only really know the pattern of domineering and capitulation. So what's the problem?
posted by runcifex at 7:18 AM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


New from Reuters.

Investigators probe Trump knowledge of campaign's Russia dealings: sources
Special counsel Robert Mueller’s team has questioned Sam Clovis, co-chairman of President Donald Trump’s election campaign, to determine if Trump or top aides knew of the extent of the campaign team’s contacts with Russia, two sources familiar with the investigation said on Friday.

The focus of the questions put to Clovis by Mueller’s team has not been previously reported.

“The ultimate question Mueller is after is whether candidate Trump and then President-elect Trump knew of the discussions going on with Russia, and who approved or even directed them,” said one source. “That is still just a question.”

Clovis testified in late October before the grand jury in Mueller’s investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. He is also cooperating with the Senate Intelligence Committee, which is investigating the same issues.

Contacted late on Friday, the White House declined to comment.

One of the sources described Clovis as “another domino” after former campaign foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI over his own contacts with Russians during the 2016 election campaign.
posted by chris24 at 7:20 AM on November 11, 2017 [17 favorites]


It's just so hard to pronounce (((Weinstein))) on TV without being obvious about it.
posted by allegedly at 7:27 AM on November 11, 2017 [11 favorites]


> The American conservative media revere Putin and have a secret crush on Xi. And authoritarians only really know the pattern of domineering and capitulation. So what's the problem?

Oh, I get that. I just thought that if you were an American authoritarian you'd want your own Strong Man to be striding the Earth like a colossus, not bowing and scraping to Stronger Men.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:34 AM on November 11, 2017 [14 favorites]


There's an old Vulcan proverb: "Only Trump could grovel in China."
posted by wabbittwax at 7:38 AM on November 11, 2017 [36 favorites]


“He said he didn’t meddle, he said he didn’t meddle. I asked him again. You can only ask so many times,” Trump said, according to pool reports.

OF COURSE! It is well-known that interactions with a Putin are governed by folklore law - if you ask the same question more than twice, a Putin cannot answer with a lie!

I wish (I really do!) that I could attribute this to credulity or stupidity, that Trump is a gullible, good-natured village idiot.. He's not.
posted by Golem XIV at 7:38 AM on November 11, 2017 [24 favorites]


I found a more informative link: CIA torture whistleblower John Kiriakou says Winnie Wong of People for Bernie Sander kicked him off EU panel
posted by jeffburdges at 7:38 AM on November 11, 2017


I found a more informative link

From RT. Lol
posted by chris24 at 7:42 AM on November 11, 2017 [57 favorites]


I mean seriously, if you want someone to buy into your story on Russia election hacking/collusion hysteria, maybe a Russian government-owned propaganda network isn't the best source. Especially on your second try.
posted by chris24 at 7:47 AM on November 11, 2017 [33 favorites]


Kiriakou:

Kiriakou said the “single most important point” about the current animosity toward Russia is that the Intelligence Community has provided “literally zero evidence” to support their claims that Russia meddled in the 2016 US presidential election.

He pointed to the fact that the intelligence community has previously been caught lying about the CIA torture program; the extraordinary rendition kidnapping program; the secret prison systems; and hacking into the Senate Intelligence Committee’s computer systems

“Now they tell us that Russia is behind Trump’s election and Hillary Clinton’s loss,” Kiriakou said. “They tell us to take their word for it. Well, why in the world would we take their word for it, when everything else they’ve told us is a lie?”

I get his point, and he did get burned pretty badly for whistleblowing

BUT BUT BUT

...FFS why would you take the Russians at their word? It's not exactly like they've got a reputation of being good actors here. Kiriakou gives no indication of being an idiot. That being the case, he must know that the Russians execute journalists and whistleblowers, and they do so throughout Europe.

What the fuck is up with these people? Greenwald and Assange and now Kiriakou? How blinkered must you be to end up a useful idiot for a Russian dictator?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:49 AM on November 11, 2017 [44 favorites]


Twitter is run by Nazi sympathisers.

Yep. Can we quit using it now? Can we all just pile in to one big fake read-only account and refer to it as the tiny, tiny, fascist-enabling troll party server that it is, and not some Truth of any sort?

Yeah yeah, journalists are on it. No other place to get fast updates from everybody. Aie. We'd have to wait 15 minutes for those, or go to many horrid geocities comic sans hells, and then where would our dopamine rush be. Ooh thats a good point, i should tweet that.

I guess they've got us then.

back in myyyyyy daaaay we had what we called a modem, y'see. MODulate and DEModulate, see? So you'd go down the lab, and say "Give me 1400 bauds and some bis", you'd say. "My handshake's rattling The Kermit" you'd say. Of course back in those days we could only fax paper bits to each other. It took two days and cost $20 to say hello, but we liked it that way! We loved it!
posted by petebest at 7:52 AM on November 11, 2017 [44 favorites]


"Ex-CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou was removed from a European Parliament panel at the urging of People for Bernie Sanders. Their complaint was he co-hosts a show on Sputnik Radio."

Good.

Aleksandr Dugin's "divide and conquer" strategy works both ways because there are useful idiots on the left, too. The really shitty thing about sputnik radio is that it broadcasts some views that I actually agree with, but its goal is not to promote a healthy, just American democracy. Its goal is to destroy American democracy. I guess the people who spout off on Sputnik simply prefer not to pay any attention to the regime that's signing their paychecks. I am continually astounded at the myopia of far left wing Russia apologists. The Putin regime foments hatred toward its own LGBT community, threatens political dissenters with violence and imprisonment, has turned the Orthodox church into a fascist arm of the government, conducts military incursions against its neighbors, and is a global state sponsor of ethnic nationalism and authoritarian regimes. But none of that matters to a left-wing Russia apologist, because "communist" was a dirty word thirty years ago.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 7:52 AM on November 11, 2017 [49 favorites]


hey, checking in with Zach, Lalex, and others those who watch this more closely: TrumpCo still hasn't enacted the Russia sanctions that he grudgingly signed, right? The ones with an Oct. 1 deadline?

Wonder why.
posted by martin q blank at 7:53 AM on November 11, 2017 [15 favorites]


I understand having deep animosity for the intelligence community in the United States. They've done some pretty fucked up shit. But damnit, there's a hierarchy of bad actors in the world. There's difference between privacy violations involving international espionage and privacy violations to silence dissent. There's a difference between countries that imprison you for leaking and those that just give you two bullets in the head.

...and that's not even getting into the surfeit of apparent traitors on the Right. And many of those quislings hold elective office.

We need to extract these turncoats root and branch.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:57 AM on November 11, 2017 [23 favorites]


I dropped Twitter hard earlier this year after realizing it provided me nothing of value except the dopamine rush of being outraged. I don't miss it.
posted by runcibleshaw at 7:58 AM on November 11, 2017 [12 favorites]


In case anyone is still under the impression that so-called NeverTrumpers, especially elected ones, still have any shame about green-lighting the most awful stuff Trump is capable of, here's more evidence that they, in fact do not:
Brett J. Talley, President Trump’s nominee to be a federal judge in Alabama, has never tried a case, was unanimously rated “not qualified” by the American Bar Assn.’s judicial rating committee, has practiced law for only three years and, as a blogger last year, displayed a degree of partisanship unusual for a judicial nominee, denouncing “Hillary Rotten Clinton” and pledging support for the National Rifle Assn.

On Thursday, the Senate Judiciary Committee, on a party-line vote, approved him for a lifetime appointment to the federal bench.
[...]
Last month, when the Judiciary Committee held a hearing on several other nominations, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) asked Talley about his fervent advocacy of gun rights. In a blog post titled a “Call to Arms,” he wrote that “the President and his democratic allies in Congress are about to launch the greatest attack on our constitutional freedoms in our lifetime,” referring to Obama’s proposal for background checks and limits on rapid-fire weapons following the shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.

“The object of that war is to make guns illegal, in all forms,” Talley wrote. The NRA “stands for all of us now, and I pray that in the coming battle for our rights, they will be victorious,” he added.

A month later, he reprinted a “thoughtful response” from a reader who wrote: “We will have to resort to arms when our other rights — of speech, press, assembly, representative government — fail to yield the desired results.” To that, he wrote: “I agree completely with this.”
FYI both Jeff Flake and Ben Sasse are on the Judiciary Committee. Sure, they couldn't stomach a child molester, but a federal judge with less experience than any of their interns and who sides with bigoted terrorists and their supporters? No problem!
posted by zombieflanders at 7:59 AM on November 11, 2017 [76 favorites]


I am continually astounded at the myopia of far left wing Russia apologists. The Putin regime foments hatred toward its own LGBT community, threatens political dissenters with violence and imprisonment, has turned the Orthodox church into a fascist arm of the government, conducts military incursions against its neighbors, and is a global state sponsor of ethnic nationalism and authoritarian regimes. But none of that matters to a left-wing Russia apologist, because "communist" was a dirty word thirty years ago.

I mean, at least the '50s communists had a semi-plausible claim of ignorance towards what they believed was a socialist utopia.

The current fucksticks are actively supporting a right-wing dictatorship.

Oh, and screw you, Jill Stein.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:59 AM on November 11, 2017 [49 favorites]


the Russians execute journalists and whistleblowers, and they do so throughout Europe.

And America.

Well gosh, Frank, this guy got so drunk he beat himself to death with a bat. Mmm mm. Sad thing to see these close aides of Putin be careless with sports equipment. Well, I guess that wraps up the case nice and tight. Lets pretend this never happened and wait for the lazy ass liberal media to finish shrugging.
posted by petebest at 8:01 AM on November 11, 2017 [15 favorites]


When the CIA has to repudiate the President.

@jaketapper
CIA today: “The Director stands by and has always stood by the January 2017 Intelligence Community Assessment entitled: Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent U.S. Elections. The intelligence assessment with regard to Russian election meddling has not changed.”
posted by chris24 at 8:04 AM on November 11, 2017 [66 favorites]


Paul Krugman sees the future: My 2018 nightmare: overwhelming evidence of Trump Russia collusion/corruption, but he remains in office bc GOP won't act; this leads to overwhelming wave election in midterms, but gerrymandering/geographic concentration means Rs retain control of Congress. US democracy dies.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:09 AM on November 11, 2017 [38 favorites]


The U.S. State Dept. funds media and media technology efforts all over the world. Should we ignore any journalist tainted by that association? No, the work speaks for itself.

Russia murders amassing numbers of journalists. Yet, nations have always backed activists working for reforms in nations with whom they compete. That's why political asylum rights exist!

John Kiriakou went to jail for exposing the CIA's torture program. I'll trust him to walk away from his Sputnik job if he thinks Sputnik does any real harm, thanks.

Ain't so clear the full reasons why Winnie Wong of People for Bernie Sanders refused appearing with Kiriakou though. At minimum she does not value exposing the CIA's torture program too highly. I'd rather support Bernie-like candidates through an organization that does not employ her.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:09 AM on November 11, 2017 [1 favorite]


There’s bad hombres on both sides. Both sides!
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 8:12 AM on November 11, 2017 [10 favorites]


Putin doesn’t suck?
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 8:15 AM on November 11, 2017


Mod note: jeffburdges, enough.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:16 AM on November 11, 2017 [28 favorites]


...this leads to overwhelming wave election in midterms, but gerrymandering/geographic concentration means Rs retain control of Congress.

Krugman doesn't fully understand the interaction between gerrymandered districts and wave elections. Gerrymandering makes wave elections MORE powerful, not less.

Also, that doesn't take into consideration the impact of wave elections at the state level, affecting state legislature and governorship in states, both of whom can help to limit further gerrymandering at the state level after the next census in 2020.

Lastly, why would Rs support a President who 1. can't get shit passed (actually makes it harder) and who 2. is clearly electoral poison? Further evidence of collusion is not making him more popular, and his fuck ups will only compound. There's a 110% chance Trump gets primaried by folks in his own party in 2020.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:17 AM on November 11, 2017 [14 favorites]


@tedlieu
I have seen the classified information on Russian hacking. @realDonaldTrump has received classified briefings. I can tell you that @POTUS is LYING. Trump knows the Kremlin hacked America last year.
posted by chris24 at 8:22 AM on November 11, 2017 [142 favorites]


There’s No Reason To Think Republicans Will Be In Better Shape A Year From Now.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:24 AM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


Trump knows the Kremlin hacked America last year.

He's just so transparently weak and so easily wowed, misled, bullied, and intimidated.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:32 AM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


He's just so transparently weak and so easily wowed, misled, bullied, and intimidated.

@ianbremmer (TIME)
Every foreign leader I’ve spoken with at #APEC thinks Trump presidency has been enormous gift for the Chinese.

Every single one.


@brianklaas (LSE Fellow)
Retweeted ian bremmer
They are all correct. This is the universal consensus with everyone I’ve spoken with in Southeast Asia too.


@SpyTalker (Jeff Stein, Newsweek)
Retweeted Brian Klaas
Asians size up Trump: ‘We can extract what we need from him using flattery without giving up anything meaningful.’
posted by chris24 at 8:38 AM on November 11, 2017 [100 favorites]


Krugman doesn't fully understand the interaction between gerrymandered districts and wave elections. Gerrymandering makes wave elections MORE powerful, not less.

Well, this sort of depends on how big a wave has to be to qualify as a wave, doesn't it? Virgina Democrats just won by 9% of the vote, and will not take a majority of seats in the state legislature because of the effectiveness of the Republican gerrymander. Was that not big enough to be a wave? Couldn't that easily happen on the national level? Projections are that Democrats need a +7 advantage on the generic ballot to take back the House, but it's not impossible they could also win nationally by 9% and all those vote be in just the wrong places to win control.

Is a 7% popular victory not a wave? What does it have to be? 10? 12? 20?

When one party is consistently at a permanent structural and intentionally designed -7% disadvantage, and the only chance of even potentially taking power relies on extraordinary circumstances such as a wave of lets say at least a >8% margin, that's not democracy. It's something, but it's sure as fuck not democracy.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:39 AM on November 11, 2017 [56 favorites]


Is it me or does Carter Page look like he's enjoying all of this attention? What is the psychosis of someone that can't help but get themselves in deeper trouble just for the sheer thrill?
posted by hairless ape at 8:45 AM on November 11, 2017 [4 favorites]


I have never really gotten into the habit of using Twitter, although I do have an account so that I can read tweets linked here and elsewhere, and occasionally tweet to political figures and Stephen King. Most of my friends and colleagues are on Facebook, and I chat with some people on Slack and Google Hangouts (I’m a card-carrying member of the Instant Message generation).

To be honest, I’ve been stepping back from...almost all up-to-the-moment media. I don’t use FB as often, I rarely watch actual television, I get most of my news from these threads, and I spend most of my time listening to music and audiobooks, watching movies and reading. I think I’ve spent more time in slowtime this past year than I have in the past two decades.

Sometimes I feel a little out of the loop, but to be honest...not really. Events and rumors move so fast that it’s just as well to get a full download at the end of the day than to keep checking in from hour to hour.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:47 AM on November 11, 2017 [17 favorites]


Sorry if this was already posted, but I would hate for anyone to miss this word salad as Trump's brain continues to fritz out:

Speaking with reporters aboard Air Force One en route to Hanoi on Saturday, Trump said that while he does feel the need to discuss the human rights issue in Vietnam, he is also focused on addressing “many other things.”

“Well, I do. But I also raise issues on many other things. I mean, I have an obligation –– we lost, last year, with China, depending on the way you do your numbers, because you can do them a [number of ways] –– anywhere from $350 [billion] to $504 billion. That's with one country. I’m going to fix that,” Trump said when directly asked if he felt the need to talk about human rights abuses in Vietnam.

“And I've got to fix what we have with Mexico, who was there today too, who I also have a very good relationship with,” the president added.


posted by A Terrible Llama at 8:50 AM on November 11, 2017 [16 favorites]


It's interesting that "[...]the president added", just as a stand-alone phrase, has the quality of being from an Onion article.

Maybe he's using up all the words and eventually we'll just communicate in memes and clicking sounds.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 8:54 AM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


…Trump “projected an air of deference to China that was almost unheard-of for a visiting American president.

Wait, what do the Chinese have on Trump, has anyone asked that question? Seriously. Given our past experience with how he behaves with his Russian handlers, his unctuous groveling in China raises a very real question: What incriminating evidence to they have on him?
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 8:57 AM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


What incriminating evidence to they have on him?

The National Debt?
posted by wabbittwax at 8:59 AM on November 11, 2017 [10 favorites]


I can tell you that @POTUS is LYING

Ted Lieu! Droppin' the mic from LA to DC!
Rocking the left from the big 33!
Using the L-word the most!
Shamin' the Post! And the NYT!
Lit up the wires swamp to coast!
Ted Lieu! Three little words said for you!

*hold pose*
*breathe heavily through smile*

MC Filter feat. thepetebest dancers
Ted Lieu 4U
19917
©MetaFilter Records
Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International
posted by petebest at 9:04 AM on November 11, 2017 [42 favorites]


IIRC they bought him off early in the game: China provisionally grants Trump 38 trademarks – including for escort service [Grauniad].

It's way easier to get a good deal when you are only having to provide reciprocal benefit to a person/company rather than an entire country.

Buy one* Trump, get the U.S. free!

* or more [cnbc]
posted by Buntix at 9:08 AM on November 11, 2017 [41 favorites]


Is it me or does Carter Page look like he's enjoying all of this attention? What is the psychosis of someone that can't help but get themselves in deeper trouble just for the sheer thrill?

I don't know the DSM, but I wonder why Ed Cox recommended him, if not to be a time-bomb. ( My reading is that Ed Cox very reluctantly supported the Candidate chosen by the GOP.
posted by mikelieman at 9:08 AM on November 11, 2017


Given our past experience with how he behaves with his Russian handlers, his unctuous groveling in China raises a very real question: What incriminating evidence to they have on him?

i honestly think he thinks that he's schmoozing them. it reads as deferential or grovelling because politicians don't behave that way, but i think he's expecting them to reciprocate and tell him that he's wonderful and amazing and just really the best world leader ever and that they all have 'really really great chemistry' with him, too, and that having him here is a 'very very great honour,' and all the rest of it.
posted by halation at 9:18 AM on November 11, 2017 [20 favorites]


With Friends Like These (Ana Maria Cox; Crooked Media) had Rebecca Traister on this week and it was a really great, thoughtful, and honest conversation about Hillary Clinton, misogyny, feminism, Anita Hill, sexual predators (incl. Bill), reconciling one's conflicted feelings about Hillary, etc.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2017 [3 favorites]


What the fuck is up with these people? Greenwald and Assange and now Kiriakou? How blinkered must you be to end up a useful idiot for a Russian dictator?

Meanwhile, in Scotland:
posted by acb at 9:28 AM on November 11, 2017 [4 favorites]


Washington Post: Trump Says U.S. Won't Be 'Taken Advantage Of Anymore.' Hours Later, Pacific Rim Nations Reach Deal On Trade Without America. "President Trump delivered a fiery speech on trade here Friday, declaring that he would not allow the United States to be ‘taken advantage of anymore’ and planned to place ‘America first.’ And then, less than 24 hours later, 11 Pacific Rim countries collectively shrugged and moved on without the U.S."

For those keeping score, New York Magazine's tally of the Winners and Losers of Trump’s Asia Trip, So Far breaks down into:
Winners
H.R. McMaster, John Kelly, and the National Security Council staff
Anyone who doesn’t want a war with North Korea*
China
Vietnamese textile makers
Losers
‘America First’ advocates
American businesses and workers
Human rights in Asia
The State Department
* North Korea, however, says, "Trump, during his visit, laid bare his true nature as destroyer of world peace and stability and begged for a nuclear war on the Korean peninsula", so they don't sound convinced.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:35 AM on November 11, 2017 [17 favorites]


What incriminating evidence to they have on him?

I think the simplest explanation is that he has a genuine and profound respect for authoritarian regimes. Consider his behavior and language when talking about and interacting with leaders from these countries: he is really impressed and wants to pal around.
posted by skewed at 9:39 AM on November 11, 2017 [44 favorites]


What incriminating evidence to they have on him?

For what it's worth, there is a line in the Steele Dossier (095, late-July 2016):
Commenting on the negative media publicity surrounding alleged Russian interference in the US election campaign in support of Trump, Source E [(ethnic Russian, close associate of Trump)] said he understood that the Republican candidate and his team were relatively relaxed about this because it deflected media and the Democrat's attention away from Trump's business dealings in China and other emerging markets. Unlike in Russia, these were substantial and involved the payment of large bribes and kickbacks which, were they to become public would be potentially very damaging to their campaign.
posted by pjenks at 9:53 AM on November 11, 2017 [42 favorites]


Unlike in Russia, these were substantial and involved the payment of large bribes and kickbacks which, were they to become public would be potentially very damaging to their campaign.

I'd be shocked if Trump isn't taking in massive bribes as we speak over whatever the fuck is happening in Saudi Arabia. Kushner takes an unscheduled trip days before the Saudis declare pseudo-war on Lebanon and money didn't change hands? If you believe that I've got a $3 billion mortgage on a shitty skyscraper in midtown Manhattan to sell you.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:04 AM on November 11, 2017 [18 favorites]


Is it me or does Carter Page look like he's enjoying all of this attention? What is the psychosis of someone that can't help but get themselves in deeper trouble just for the sheer thrill?

we all remember that one kid from third grade, unfortunately he ended up being a national foreign policy advisor because oh god, this reality
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:09 AM on November 11, 2017 [11 favorites]


Greenwald and Assange and now Kiriakou? How blinkered must you be to end up a useful idiot for a Russian dictator?

How long do you keep beating your head against the wall making your own life difficult before you say, fuck it. Who am I doing this for? Nobody even wants my help. Might as well get something for me.

It's classic spirit-breaking technique for POWs. Your country isn't as moral and good as you think it is, and it SURE doesn't give a shit about you. Come on. Why keep putting up with beatings and mistreatment? We're going to make that worse. OR! You could be living comfortably like that other guy who cooperated if you stopped being a dupe for the manipulators in your government.

I totally get it. I've felt this momentarily at times too - why even give a shit? Let them burn it all down. Luckily some people see the manipulation and realize what's happening. Some stubborn people take that feeling as motivation to fight harder. But some do cave, especially when there's someone RIGHT THERE to take advantage of your weakness before you change your mind. I don't have anyone offering me a crap ton of money to help betray my country (and such a small thing! Is it really like that? Yes.) I think I wouldn't do it, but can you really know yourself that well beforehand? I wouldn't say I sympathize, because I don't. But I'm not surprised it works on some people.
posted by ctmf at 10:10 AM on November 11, 2017 [8 favorites]


What the fuck is up with these people? Greenwald and Assange and now Kiriakou? How blinkered must you be to end up a useful idiot for a Russian dictator?

There's a certain sort that bacsically saw the US as the biggest threat to global peace, and thus needed another actor to act as counterpoint, leading them to Russia. Of course, in their hurry to create that counterbalance, they ignored the reality of exactly who they were signing on with. One of the things that the antiwar left is going to have to come to terms with is exactly how much they got played by Russia.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2017 [13 favorites]


The only innovation here is they don't have to capture the POW before they break him.
posted by ctmf at 10:12 AM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


So the DSA can win elections, now what? A plan to win taken from Sweden
posted by The Whelk at 10:14 AM on November 11, 2017 [13 favorites]


One of the things that the antiwar left is going to have to come to terms with is exactly how much they got played by Russia.

...for escaping that trap, Winnie Wong of People for Bernie Sanders deserves nothing but praise. So when will the merger of Brietbart and RT be finalized?
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:16 AM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


They first have to see if News Corp. will be prevented from buying CNN, thus necessitating Breitbart (or some other Mercer/Koch/Adelson/&c.-owned enterprise) to buy it.
posted by acb at 10:19 AM on November 11, 2017


Unlike in Russia, these were substantial and involved the payment of large bribes and kickbacks which, were they to become public would be potentially very damaging to their campaign.

I'm shocked, shocked to find that bribery is going on in the Trump Organization!

From the New Yorker's article on Trump and Tillerson: "In February, a few weeks after Tillerson was confirmed by the Senate, he visited the Oval Office to introduce the President to a potential deputy, but Trump had something else on his mind. He began fulminating about federal laws that prohibit American businesses from bribing officials overseas; the businesses, he said, were being unfairly penalized."
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:19 AM on November 11, 2017 [24 favorites]


IIRC they bought him off early in the game: China provisionally grants Trump 38 trademarks – including for escort service

Trump hookers? Do they...do they offer a specialty?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:21 AM on November 11, 2017 [9 favorites]


both of whom can help to limit further gerrymandering at the state level after the next census in 2020.

Uh, about that... Trump's going to fuck up the census so gerrymandering will be unnecessary.
posted by ctmf at 10:22 AM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


Speculation grows around Flynn and Mueller probe (The Hill)
posted by Barack Spinoza at 10:23 AM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


As I see it, Glenn Greenwald is a patriotic American with very consistent opinions about the negative effects of US foreign policy. He is, additionally, a reflexive skeptic who doesn't see much use in jumping on a bandwagon with NeverTrumpers who, less than a decade ago, were selling us on Torture and Endless War (not that anyone's really stopped selling those two items).

I think it is fair to read his criticism of the "Russia story" not as a defense of Trump or Putin, but as a reaction to the current shiny-object topic which distracts from larger issues of inequity, injustice, and a dangerous US foreign policy.

I personally hope that the "Russia story" leads to the whole bunch of Trumpers in handcuffs. And I ravenously digest the daily news on it, mostly because I want to see the racist and homophobic 40% put back down. But I don't see the point in attacking Greenwald et al --- with whom I completely agree on almost any issue --- just because they are skeptical of the consensus view.
posted by pjenks at 10:25 AM on November 11, 2017 [10 favorites]


Trump hookers? Do they...do they offer a specialty?
bonus coupons for Taco Bowls at Trump Grills...
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:32 AM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


Say, didn't Franken ask Sessions for an answer to his letter by the 10th? Did anything come of that?
posted by salix at 10:33 AM on November 11, 2017 [9 favorites]


Say, didn't Franken ask Sessions for an answer to his letter by the 10th? Did anything come of that?

Yeah, Sessions replied "the stories [were] all true", that he had abused his power and was going to step down to "focus on getting better".
posted by petebest at 10:36 AM on November 11, 2017 [12 favorites]


He is, additionally, a reflexive skeptic

Except where bullshit stories about Hillary Clinton are concerned

For some reason

I wonder what it could be
posted by schadenfrau at 10:46 AM on November 11, 2017 [70 favorites]


from Greenwald's point of view the current proto-facsist state and thousands dying in Puerto Rico is A-Ok as long as the neoliberals aren't in power. He can fuck off imo
posted by localhuman at 10:51 AM on November 11, 2017 [55 favorites]


I don't think I need/want to stand up in defense of Glenn Greenwald, but:
  1. The burning of Reality Winner looked a lot more like (inexcusable) incompetence than malevolence.
  2. About which bullshit stories about Hillary Clinton is he unskeptical? Lots of people are critical of Hillary Clinton, for lots of good reasons. I'm sad she lost, but not because I hold her to be ideal.
posted by pjenks at 10:55 AM on November 11, 2017 [3 favorites]


from Greenwald's point of view the current proto-facsist state and thousands dying in Puerto Rico is A-Ok

Um, perhaps you can cite his "point of view" rather than just stating it? I'd be happy to read it and adjust my opinion.
posted by pjenks at 10:57 AM on November 11, 2017 [1 favorite]


I don't think I need/want to stand up in defense of Glenn Greenwald

Then don't.

I don't see how someone can look at his actions and conduct, especially as of late, and see him as anything other than a useful idiot.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:00 AM on November 11, 2017 [24 favorites]


because it deflected media and the Democrat's attention away from Trump's business dealings in China and other emerging markets. Unlike in Russia, these were substantial and involved the payment of large bribes and kickbacks which, were they to become public would be potentially very damaging to their campaign.

I keep coming back to this because of one of the most interesting features of Trump's behavior. We've had a whole bunch of reports that all boil down to "Trump is dealing with the Russia investigation because he doesn't personally think he did anything wrong, but he's furious about the prospect that Mueller could start investigating his business dealings:
Asked if Mr. Mueller’s investigation would cross a red line if it expanded to look at his family’s finances beyond any relationship to Russia, Mr. Trump said, “I would say yes.” He would not say what he would do about it. “I think that’s a violation. Look, this is about Russia.”
This isn't subtle. When the guy, the kind of guy who pays multi-million dollar settlements for running a scam university, is all "sure, investigate me for this, but you'd better not investigate my business dealings," it doesn't take much to think maybe there's a whole lot worse out there.
posted by zachlipton at 11:01 AM on November 11, 2017 [53 favorites]


Whatever you think of Greenwald, I don't think he qualifies as an idiot.
posted by rhizome at 11:03 AM on November 11, 2017 [4 favorites]


Maybe there's a whole lot worse out there.

It's kind of what Trump and Moore have in common--they've been getting away with it for so long, they never thought to imagine that they might not be able to get away with it on a nationwide stage.
posted by box at 11:05 AM on November 11, 2017 [10 favorites]


It’s an expression, rhizome.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 11:08 AM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


Whatever you think of Greenwald, I don't think he qualifies as an idiot.

In this context, he absolutely does. It's a term of art, not a quantifier of intellect.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:08 AM on November 11, 2017 [26 favorites]


Putin in [sic] ‘insulted’ by accusations of election meddling, Trump says

The president* seems to have a new gig as the Kremlin's press secretary.

Also, I note that the dateline on the AP story is Hanoi, so next time the issue of bone spurs comes up, he can state tweet truthfully:
I WENT TO VIETNAM!!! Don't believe the fake news that says I stayed home #CNN #MSNBC
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:16 AM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


> About which bullshit stories about Hillary Clinton is he unskeptical

<Brianna_Keilar>All of them.</Brianna_Keilar>

The business we've chosen
So yes I agree, wholeheartedly and without reservation, that Hillary Clinton was a flawed candidate. But there’s an extra word in that sentence. It’s the extra word that would still be in that sentence if you replaced the name “Hillary Clinton” with any other name in the recorded history of the world.

I’m too tired right now to give this topic the attention it deserves, but you really don’t get to avoid soiling yourself with the dirty business that is and always will be the business of politics by calling yourself a journalist.

If you helped bring about the election of Donald Trump by doing the best you could to publicize every sordid little detail of the Wikileaks data dumps that tumbled into your lap, then that’s what you did.

That’s what you did when everything was on the line. That’s how you decided, freely and consciously, to use your time and your very considerable talents. That’s what you chose to do at a moment of supreme moral and political crisis.

And that in its own small or perhaps not so small way is a tragedy.
The Republican Establishment Was And Is All-In On Trump
[...] But what’s doubly hilarious is that omitted from this discussion of utter trivia that had no effect on the campaign whatsoever is…Mr. James Comey. Maybe it’s me, but if you’re discussing the alleged effects of the national security apparatus on the election, the director of the FBI making highly prejudicial comments about Clinton — including a letter implying that Clinton was a crook based on redundant emails that were quickly determined to be [immaterial] less than two weeks before the election — while sitting on an serious investigation into Russian attempts to influence the election seems kinda important. Particularly since unlike some random op-eds Comey’s actions almost certainly changed the outcome of the election. But, as we know, discussing any variable that might have affected the outcome of the election other than 1)Hillary Clinton’s highly neoliberal neoliberalism and 2)some highly uninfluential op-eds would be the purest McCarthyism.

Silly as all this is, the setup is even more jaw-dropping:
Whatever else there is to say about Trump, it is simply a fact that the 2016 election saw elite circles in the U.S., with very few exceptions, lining up with remarkable fervor behind his Democratic opponent.
He’s still saying this. This claim was astoundingly wrong at the time, and if anything it looks even worse after six months of Republicans doing virtually nothing about Trump because, after all, they’ve gotten a neoconfederate judge out of the deal. This claim is so utterly absurd that in the past when I’ve pointed out that Glenn believes it I’ve been accused of attacking a strawman. But, no — Glenn did and does believe that the American elite was lined up against Trump despite the fact that he had the support of the vast majority of powerful Republicans. It’s also worth nothing that while the marginal Trump voter might be a person without a college degree who harbors major resentments about America’s elites, the typical Trump voter — which is what’s relevant in this context — is an affluent or more-than-affluent white person. The idea that America’s elites were united against Trump is utterly absurd on any possible level.
Area Man, Come Undone by Trump’s Election, Accuses Democrats of Coming Undone by Trump’s Election. And by “Area Man,” I mean “Glenn Greenwald”
As I’ve mentioned before, I’m not terribly hawkish on Russia. But I am capable of updating my priors in light of new information. This isn’t crass partisanship. It’s what human beings who care about facts and stuff do. Anyway, whatever the ultimate cause of their behavior, Moscow has found a mechanism—information warfare deployed in electoral politics—for undermining liberal democracy in the Euro-Atlantic zone. Democrats need to take that fact very seriously when considering Russia policy. What we can’t do is, per Greenwald, reduce the debate to a choice between ‘American warmongering hawks’ and ‘apologists for Russian imperialism.’ If you think my characterization is too strong, read this:
Put another way, establishment Democrats – with a largely political impetus but now as a matter of conviction – have completely abandoned Obama’s accommodationist approach to Russia and have fully embraced the belligerent, hawkish mentality of John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Bill Kristol, the CIA and Evan McMullin. It should thus come as no surprise that a bill proposed by supreme warmonger Lindsey Graham to bar Trump from removing sanctions against Russia has more Democratic co-sponsors than Republican ones.
Do you feel that? That’s the feeling of whiplash. This bill prevents Trump from unilaterally lifting sanctions imposed by the Obama Administration as part of its response to, first, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and, second, Moscow’s interference in the US election. But wait, you say, didn’t Greenwald open by arguing that Democrats have gone insane because they don’t support Obama policies toward Russia? Why yes. Yes he did. [...]

The fact that Greenwald can’t be bothered to pay attention to what the vast majority of actual Democratic politicians are doing, or how they’re voting, when it comes to these issues is no excuse for stupid. The fact that Greenwald has clearly never been to a rally where liberals and left-wingers join together to protest Trump’s Islamophobic  policies, his assault on the environment, and his pro-corporate policies is no excuse for stupid. The fact that virtually all of these regulatory changes—or proposed policy changes—are things that Hillary Clinton would’ve prevented is no excuse for stupid. The fact that the Democratic party moved in a protectionist direction during this election, and that Greenwald is objectively wrong about the likely economic consequences of revoking existing trade deals, is no excuse for stupid. [...]

This is pretty important stuff. And while Greenwald is busy positioning himself to the left of Noam Chomsky, I just want to point out that Trump does not, in fact, promise less militarism than the Clinton wing of the Democratic party. He just would like to pursue more war-crime-y and more crypto-fascist-y militarism.

In conclusion, we all make mistakes. I think Greenwald would be happier, and a good deal less ridiculous, if he just owned his.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:19 AM on November 11, 2017 [89 favorites]


Ethics lawyers across the political spectrum say that if Trump receives any special treatment in securing trademark rights, it would violate the US constitution, which bans public servants from accepting anything of value from foreign governments unless approved by Congress.

Well. It's not like violating the Constitution is against the law. I mean, you'd think if the prednisent was violating the Constitution it'd be in the paper.
posted by petebest at 11:47 AM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


Trump has no comment on Roy Moore because he doesn't 'watch much TV'
Donald Trump on Saturday deflected questions about whether Roy Moore should drop out of the Alabama Senate race over allegations of sexual misconduct, insisting that because he does “not watch much television” he did not feel qualified to comment.

Travelling in Asia, the president told reporters: “I’ve been with you folks, so I haven’t gotten to see too much. And believe it or not, even when I’m in Washington or New York, I do not watch much television.”

Numerous reports have detailed Trump’s TV-watching habits, including large screens in the White House residence, tuned to cable news. His tweeting habits have frequently been shown to follow content on certain shows, particularly the Fox News morning magazine, Fox & Friends.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:48 AM on November 11, 2017 [49 favorites]


“Believe it or not, even when I’m in Washington or New York, I do not watch much television. I know they like to say that. People that don’t know me, they like to say I watch television — people with fake sources. You know, fake reporters, fake sources. But I don’t get to watch much television. Primarily because of documents. I’m reading documents. A lot. And different things. I actually read much more — I read you people much more than I watch television.”

Reading "documents". Mmmm. Very heady stuff indeed. Which documents would that be then?

"Every . . all of them" (okay this last part I made up intuited.)
posted by petebest at 12:08 PM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


And believe it or not, even when I’m in Washington or New York, I do not watch much television.
Okay, new rule: no more drinking hot beverages while reading Metafilter.

my poor computer
posted by ragtag at 12:11 PM on November 11, 2017 [22 favorites]


You know, fake reporters, fake sources.

He live tweets Fox and Friends 4 out of 5 days.
posted by PenDevil at 12:12 PM on November 11, 2017 [12 favorites]


petebest, was italicized part real?
posted by notsnot at 12:14 PM on November 11, 2017


He reads all the documents, y'know

Hi & Lois, Garfield, Blondie
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:16 PM on November 11, 2017 [9 favorites]


What was the bet?
posted by notyou at 12:26 PM on November 11, 2017


"But I don't get to watch much television, primarily because of documents. I'm reading documents a lot, and different things.

I actually read much more -- I read you people much more than I watch television."

Oh, that's weird. I haven't seen any TV about Roy Moore, either, because like Trump I mostly find out what reporters are saying by reading the stuff they write. I read a bunch of stuff from those people about Roy Moore. I wonder why Trump's missed out? What with all the reading he's doing all the time why hasn't he run up on any information on this gigaaaantic story?
posted by Don Pepino at 12:28 PM on November 11, 2017 [8 favorites]


He live tweets Fox and Friends 4 out of 5 days.

And on the 5th day he’s on Fox News doing a bloody interview!
posted by Glibpaxman at 12:29 PM on November 11, 2017


I have to get back into the country to see what's happening.

... and the president appears to lack Object Permanence.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 12:30 PM on November 11, 2017 [81 favorites]


The most jaw-dropping part of the Roy Moore situation is the repeated insistence from the Alabama GOP (echoed by the Trump administration) that the best way to handle this is to trust Roy Moore to resign if this is true. Literally, they are leaving it up to an accused pedophile to decide whether he did anything wrong.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:30 PM on November 11, 2017 [35 favorites]


And, you know, I put out a statement yesterday that he'll do the right thing, that -- he was interviewed.

if you weren't watching, how do you know he was interviewed
i mean really i can't even be angry it's just too... sad
posted by halation at 12:31 PM on November 11, 2017


Q What was the bet again?

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, a lot of people said it's almost physically impossible for someone to go through 12 days.

Man, I go through twelve days literally every twelve days, I gotta slow down
posted by salix at 12:32 PM on November 11, 2017 [115 favorites]


Ugh, PA's GOP just nominated state rep Rick Saccone to replace Tim Murphy in PA's 18th US district. From the article:
“We got to rile up the base” to support President Donald Trump’s agenda, Mr. Saccone told over 200 “conferees” gathered Saturday morning at the Southpointe Golf Club.

Afterward, he told reporters that advancing Mr. Trump’s agenda -- on issues like increasing military investment, lowering taxes, thwarting gun regulations, and ending abortion -- was a top priority. “People expect us to fight for it and defend it, and I will,” he said.

Mr. Saccone, 59, is a strident pro-gun conservative. Since being elected to the state House in 2010, he has proposed bills to expand gun rights, limit abortion, and to advance a culturally conservative agenda that includes posting “In God we Trust” at public schools.
posted by octothorpe at 12:34 PM on November 11, 2017 [1 favorite]


With the addition of Wisconsin, right-wingers promoting a Constitutional Convention have 28 states; they only need six more."

I think, in the event that a minority of the US population, but a majority of the states, undertook to rewrite the US Constitution it would be time for a revolution.
posted by sotonohito at 12:38 PM on November 11, 2017 [30 favorites]


I have to get back into the country to see what's happening.

... and the president appears to lack Object Permanence.

And the knowledge that the President of the United States could probably get some people to bring news from inside the country to where he is if he asked nicely enough. It's literally someone's job description to brief him on things he wants to know about.
posted by ctmf at 12:39 PM on November 11, 2017 [19 favorites]


The most jaw-dropping part of the Roy Moore situation is the repeated insistence from the Alabama GOP (echoed by the Trump administration) that the best way to handle this is to trust Roy Moore to resign if this is true. Literally, they are leaving it up to an accused pedophile to decide whether he did anything wrong.

Worse, they are telling him and everyone else that withdrawal is an admission of guilt. They are actively incentivizing him to stay in the race.
posted by solotoro at 1:22 PM on November 11, 2017 [9 favorites]


Mod note: There's a whole thread for the Roy Moore situation, let's keep stuff about that over there.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:30 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


The New York Times on Tillerson's latest move to destroy the very department he heads: State Department to Offer Buyouts in Effort to Cut Staff
The State Department will soon offer a $25,000 buyout to diplomats and staff members who quit or take early retirements by April, officials confirmed on Friday.

The decision is part of Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson’s continuing effort to cut the ranks of diplomats and Civil Service officers despite bipartisan resistance in Congress. Mr. Tillerson’s goal is to reduce a department of nearly 25,000 full-time American employees by 8 percent, which amounts to 1,982 people.

To reach that number, he has already frozen hiring, reduced promotions, asked some senior employees to perform clerical duties that are normally relegated to lower-level staff members, refused to fill many ambassadorships and senior leadership jobs, and fired top diplomats from coveted posts while offering low-level assignments in their place. Those efforts have crippled morale worldwide.
Foreign policy consultant Molly McKew drily observes, "If you ran a corporation this way, everyone would know you were trying to run it into ground/sell off what's left."
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:33 PM on November 11, 2017 [76 favorites]


[There's a whole thread for the Roy Moore situation, let's keep stuff about that over there.]

Is there? Jesus. It's getting tricky to keep sexual assault stuff in the correct sub-thread for ongoing sexual assault issues. There is too much. Dear gawd, there is just too much.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:33 PM on November 11, 2017 [15 favorites]


he State Department will soon offer a $25,000 buyout to diplomats and staff members who quit or take early retirements by April, officials confirmed on Friday

I cannot even. Thousands of years of institutional memory, being sold off for a pittance of its value. It's a gross insult to everyone who has ever served in our diplomatic corps.
posted by suelac at 1:38 PM on November 11, 2017 [82 favorites]


Petebest, I don't really understand half of what you do. But you do it well.

I think.
posted by greermahoney at 1:40 PM on November 11, 2017 [6 favorites]


Metafilter: "Dear gawd, there is just too much"
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:45 PM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


... the repeated insistence from the Alabama GOP (echoed by the Trump administration) that the best way to handle this is to trust Roy Moore to resign if this is true.

Right, but isn't that standard GOP? Self-regulation? Trusting corporations to not pollute and not cheat and not steal just because they say so? It's such a bizarre way of thinking, but they use it for everything.
(Except welfare benefits. Gotta make sure those are legit and only being used on what they think is appropriate. And someone collecting unemployment has to prove they're looking for work. So it seems the rule is trust them, and no one else. Got it.)
posted by greermahoney at 1:51 PM on November 11, 2017 [9 favorites]


Yes. It was part of a press gaggle on Air Force One earlier today.

reading his asinine gibberish, his meaningless blather, christ it's almost a word salad at this point, it becomes more apparent that the majority of his voters are really just very stupid.

What I didn't want to do was come back because I would have had to come back.

this cretin can bomb nations out of existence if he feels like it, and 68 million other halfwits are fine with that
posted by poffin boffin at 2:17 PM on November 11, 2017 [24 favorites]


meteor i am ready
posted by poffin boffin at 2:17 PM on November 11, 2017 [39 favorites]


Foreign policy consultant Molly McKew drily observes, "If you ran a corporation this way, everyone would know you were trying to run it into ground/sell off what's left."

This is exactly what Russia paid for. Tillerson is the pro quo. His entire nomination was as Putin's man to destroy US soft power for eternity going forward, and he's doing a great job at the mission his real boss, Vladimir Putin, hired him to do.

The US is a Russian client state, that fact just hasn't sunk in yet.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:34 PM on November 11, 2017 [74 favorites]


Q What was the bet again?

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, a lot of people said it's almost physically impossible for someone to go through 12 days.

"As soon as he travels to 112 countries and negotiates a peace deal, a cease-fire, a release of dissidents, opening of new opportunities in nations around the world or even spends 11 hours testifying in front of a congressional committee he can talk to me about stamina.”
posted by Snarl Furillo at 2:40 PM on November 11, 2017 [47 favorites]


The events of the past day have been ridiculous. Putin brought Paul Manafort's business partner, Oleg Deripaska, along to the summit. Short of wearing a Fancy Bear t-shirt, that seems like a comically large signal he's taking credit. Putin's spokesman says they didn't discuss hacking at all, while Trump said they did talk about it and he believes Putin. Indeed, Trump echoed Putin's old line about how Democrats are making this up to cause friction between the two countries. This caused the CIA to have to put out a statement saying "nope, whatever the President says, we're sticking by our analysis thanks."

This is all so incredibly wrong.
posted by zachlipton at 2:41 PM on November 11, 2017 [80 favorites]


Sure, this is fine. No reason to worry at all.

U.S. Embassy Hires Security Firm of Former Putin Spy
The U.S. Embassy in Moscow has awarded a $2.83 million contract to a security firm founded by a former KGB agent who worked with Vladimir Putin and British double agent Kim Philby. A post on a U.S. state procurement site says Elite Security Holdings will provide “local guard services for US mission Russia,” which will include embassies in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Vladivostok and Yekaterinburg.

Russian business daily Kommersant reported Friday that the U.S. embassy hired the firm after Moscow reduced the number of staff allowed in U.S., missions, prompting the U.S. to replace its former staff with personnel from Elite Security Holdings. The company was founded in 1997 by Viktor Budanov, a former major general in Russia’s foreign intelligence service who headed a KGB branch in East Germany where Putin worked in the 1980s, according to Kommersant. Budanov has said he also worked with British defector Philby. He has also been accused by one former colleague of teaching Bulgarian agents how to use poison to target dissidents.
posted by chris24 at 2:45 PM on November 11, 2017 [38 favorites]


But I don't get to watch much television, primarily because of documents. I'm reading documents a lot, and different things.


And I am Marie of Romania.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:48 PM on November 11, 2017 [17 favorites]


The US is a Russian client state, that fact just hasn't sunk in yet.

For now. When we get through this — and barring a pandemic, a meteor, or a yellowstone caldera / San Andreas type disaster, I think we will — there will be a goddamn reckoning.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:56 PM on November 11, 2017 [17 favorites]


A Washington county that went for Trump is shaken as immigrant neighbors start disappearing

Trump voters get what they voted for, leopards eating faces.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:58 PM on November 11, 2017 [49 favorites]


The US is a Russian client state, that fact just hasn't sunk in yet.

The bright side is we no longer have first world problems. The downside, of course, is we now have second world problems.
posted by milarepa at 2:59 PM on November 11, 2017 [38 favorites]


Kudos for correctly using First, Second, and Third World.
posted by Justinian at 3:02 PM on November 11, 2017 [21 favorites]


Yeah, it’s becoming pretty clear that even if the Soviet Union lost the Cold War, Russia may well still win it.
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:10 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


Russia is a dying country. They can't actually win... just take us with them. Which sadly looks more and more likely.
posted by Justinian at 3:14 PM on November 11, 2017 [37 favorites]


Under Article V of the Constitution, all amendments—whether proposed by Congress or by a convention—must be approved by 3/4 of the states to take effect. It’s been that way for all 27 amendments so far; no reason why it would be different with a convention. Amendments can and do fail because states don’t ratify them.

[Admittedly, the last time there was a convention they replaced a system that required unanimous approval of changes with one that took effect after 2/3. But still.]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 3:17 PM on November 11, 2017


This should be fun.

@jaketapper
Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper and former CIA Director John Brennan will be live on @CNNSotu tomorrow to respond to President Trump.

9 am/noon only on @CNN
posted by chris24 at 3:21 PM on November 11, 2017 [14 favorites]


Yeah, it’s becoming pretty clear that even if the Soviet Union lost the Cold War, Russia may well still win it.

Just like the CSA lost its own hot war but is currently enjoying 150+ years of cold/guerilla warfare.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 3:23 PM on November 11, 2017 [33 favorites]


It’s important to not prematurely become despondent. While things are really bleak and real damage is being done, The Cold War lasted a generation. We can’t call it a loss in less than a year. The Trump administration seems invincible but it is lead by a capricious, unhealthy septuagenarian, who himself is already under intense pressure and scrutiny. We owe it to the younger generation to not surrender and lead through votes, donations, reason and decency.
posted by milarepa at 3:25 PM on November 11, 2017 [32 favorites]


The Cold War is not the correct analogy here, it was fought against an external enemy when an overwhelming majority of Americans agreed that the enemy was in fact, an enemy.

Today we have our own government captured by a hostile foreign power, with 46% of the population and 100% of the elected representatives in the majority party in full complicity because they hate liberals more than they value American sovereignty.

It's more like the resistance to occupied Nazi America in Man in the High Castle than the real world Cold War.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:31 PM on November 11, 2017 [32 favorites]


Boris Johnson met ‘London professor’ linked to FBI’s Russia investigation

If this had been a le Carré novel, everyone would have accused him of going too far
posted by mumimor at 3:34 PM on November 11, 2017 [41 favorites]


Josh Marshall:
The country has been in a sort of fog for a year. Proving collusion 18 months ago is kind of beside the point. We’re watching it in real time. President Putin has a tight hold over the President. He is actively working to block an understanding of what happened in 2016 and prevent what will happen in 2018. This isn’t hyperbole. Have you even seen a business man asked about the mobster who owns him? It’s very similar. A foreign adversary actively worked to elect a candidate. He got elected and has consistently done everything possible to support and defend the foreign adversary. He takes the foreign adversary’s side against his own govt. There’s no other explanation for what we see beside the bad explanation. It’s like an active crime scene.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:43 PM on November 11, 2017 [118 favorites]


The Cold War is not the correct analogy here

I don’t disagree, but my point was it’s important to not give in prematurely. Our situation is incredibly dangerous, for both us and the world, but it might take decades of effort before we definitively lose or prevail. Premature despondency is worse than useless.
posted by milarepa at 3:43 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


Justinian, Russia is running out of money, and Putin erroneously sees the situation as a zero sum game. He's wrong. America's loss, no matter how substantial, has not proven to be Russia's gain. Americans have to hold the line long enough for the Russian power structure to fall down (which will be a humanitarian catastrophe in Russia, but take the pressure off democratic institutions in the West) or for the GOP to fall to the fatal reputational damage of the Trump year(s).

Going forward, I think we need to make a stronger case than two cheers for democracy, because it's pretty clear that the opposition are willing to exploit every weak point and the average voter has no idea why they should defend the principle, rather than their own self-interest and the interests of the tribe.

On a personal note, I saw Tommy Sheridan, who introduced me to voting Socialist, on RT not that long ago, and I am gutted to see Alex Salmond is now preparing to work for the Russian government. Particularly because I am a supporter of independence, I don't want to see those waters muddied.

Anyhow, let's not lose hope. We have an increasingly clear vision of a better future, while they are modifying their culture war to incorporate paedophila, economic and scientific ignorance, and collusion with hostile governments.

Let's win.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 3:44 PM on November 11, 2017 [13 favorites]


Why is this 2017 the one where the Russians came to the aid of the CSA, and us remnants of the USA are fighting for survival?
posted by mikelieman at 3:44 PM on November 11, 2017 [8 favorites]


And believe it or not, even when I'm in Washington and New York, I do not watch much television.

So, these are our two choices? Give me a sec.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:50 PM on November 11, 2017 [4 favorites]


Did the producers of Okkupert just pivot to reality to TV for the second season or something? The mention of Russian client state upthread reminded me of that show and its worryingly plausible premise. Djupvik, where are you?
posted by emelenjr at 3:50 PM on November 11, 2017


9 am/noon only on @CNN

bit early for popcorn, but...
posted by halation at 3:53 PM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


and I am gutted to see Alex Salmond is now preparing to work for the Russian government. Particularly because I am a supporter of independence, I don't want to see those waters muddied.


I too am gutted by this. Not in my name.
posted by Flitcraft at 4:03 PM on November 11, 2017 [3 favorites]


Does Russia Today pay in pieces of silver or is that only implied?
posted by Justinian at 4:05 PM on November 11, 2017 [4 favorites]


Nightmare scenario = Constitutional Convention + Putin still in power.
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:23 PM on November 11, 2017 [3 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: When will all the haters and fools out there realize that having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. There always playing politics - bad for our country. I want to solve North Korea, Syria, Ukraine, terrorism, and Russia can greatly help!

Giving him more characters was a tremendous mistake.
posted by zachlipton at 4:28 PM on November 11, 2017 [57 favorites]


Just a thought: whatever it is that is happening in Saudi Arabia (and around it) these days is really radical and potentially can lead to one more major disruption in the entire region. Is this the Trump version of the Iraq war? It's already causing a humanitarian disaster in Yemen. Now Lebanon is under attack, and there's the strange crisis in Qatar.
Are the Trumpists trying to provoke a SA-Iran war? (Which Iran will no doubt win, even if the USA meddles, a Vietnam for the 21st century). I'm just guessing at this point, but it is something that is happening at very high speed while we are trying to follow the Russia story, the China story, the US internal politics etc.
posted by mumimor at 4:29 PM on November 11, 2017 [10 favorites]


There always playing politics

Grammar game on point.
posted by chris24 at 4:31 PM on November 11, 2017 [16 favorites]


In another tweet, he spelled Philippines wrong.
posted by zachlipton at 4:34 PM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: When will all the haters and fools out there realize that having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. There always playing politics - bad for our country. I want to solve North Korea, Syria, Ukraine, terrorism, and Russia can greatly help!

@HeerJeet
Retweeted Donald J. Trump
Let me translate this for you: "Yes, the pee tape is real."


@Mikel_Jollett
Retweeted Donald J. Trump
Innocent people don't talk like this.
posted by chris24 at 4:34 PM on November 11, 2017 [69 favorites]


When will all the haters and fools out there realize

This is classic worst-of-trump-twitter wording (case in point), the likes of which we haven't seen in a long time. He's in an unfamiliar environment without standard handlers, feels like things are out of control, and is resorting to an old and well-worn brain-pleasure button.

I will bet anything that it has to do with Mueller getting to his innermost circle with Hope Hicks and Stephen Miller.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:40 PM on November 11, 2017 [12 favorites]


After the longest of years (what are we up to, 18 million Scaramuccis?), I'm still boggled by the fact that we have a President who talks like the comments section of your local newspaper.

Acts like a fawning, weak piece of shit when he's being buttered up by China, Russia and Saudi Arabia, then tweets about haters. What a fucking year this has been.
posted by Salieri at 4:44 PM on November 11, 2017 [32 favorites]


Oh he's on a roll.

@realDonaldTrump
Does the Fake News Media remember when Crooked Hillary Clinton, as Secretary of State, was begging Russia to be our friend with the misspelled reset button? Obama tried also, but he had zero chemistry with Putin.
posted by chris24 at 4:48 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


That Hope Hicks interview must be driving him nuts. She's privy to all the dirt.
posted by mikelieman at 4:48 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


There's a certain sort that bacsically saw the US as the biggest threat to global peace, and thus needed another actor to act as counterpoint, leading them to Russia. Of course, in their hurry to create that counterbalance, they ignored the reality of exactly who they were signing on with. One of the things that the antiwar left is going to have to come to terms with is exactly how much they got played by Russia.

I've been saying since 2016 the US political situation is going to turn out to be "Fargo".
posted by bongo_x at 4:48 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


“We hold these Truths to be self-evident: that h8ers gonna h8 h8 h8 h8 h8 h8.”
posted by Barack Spinoza at 4:49 PM on November 11, 2017 [24 favorites]


1) You misspelled "they're" in the tweet you sent 5 minutes ago. The one we are currently discussing.
2) We are aware of your chemistry with Putin.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:49 PM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


oh dear

@realDonaldTrump
Why would Kim Jong-un insult me by calling me "old," when I would NEVER call him "short and fat?" Oh well, I try so hard to be his friend - and maybe someday that will happen!
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:50 PM on November 11, 2017 [61 favorites]


WHAT. THE. FUCK. POTUS?
posted by zachlipton at 4:50 PM on November 11, 2017 [62 favorites]


If we all die because our president is a narcissistic manbaby calling a nuclear armed tyrant short and fat I am going to have a talk with the writers of this screenplay.
posted by Justinian at 4:51 PM on November 11, 2017 [50 favorites]


um, we all know that china won the cold war, right?
posted by pyramid termite at 4:55 PM on November 11, 2017 [6 favorites]


oh my god look what you did jack LOOK WHAT YOU DID ROLL THE CHARACTER COUNT BACK

for real tho someone needs to get that phone away from him because we are treading uncomfortably close to the danger zone even by 2017's entirely fucked up standards
posted by halation at 4:56 PM on November 11, 2017 [20 favorites]


Are we watching the long-awaited meltdown in real time? Via Twitter? Can't someone just feed him a cheeseburger with fries and put him down for the night?
posted by uosuaq at 4:57 PM on November 11, 2017 [22 favorites]


@ddale8 (Toronto Star)
Trump simply cannot contain himself for any extended period of time. He's been forced to stick to script on a trip, and now he's lashing out wildly.

@ddale8
The president is publicly demonstrating that the North Korean dictator can play with his emotions...
posted by chris24 at 5:02 PM on November 11, 2017 [46 favorites]


Wait. Those are real tweets? That a grown ass adult wrote? To the leader of another country? Who has nukes?

Lordy.
posted by lydhre at 5:02 PM on November 11, 2017 [47 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump
Does the Fake News Media remember when Crooked Hillary Clinton, as Secretary of State, was begging Russia to be our friend with the misspelled reset button? Obama tried also, but he had zero chemistry with Putin.

Crazy thing is, this is sort of true! US was on a mission to improve relations w/ Russia, looking at economic support in return for humanitarian improvements and better relations in SW Asia/Middle East. Obama was on board with a decently solid policy and real goals and a plan to meet them. What changed? Congress passed the Magnitsky Act, and Obama was pressured into signing it into law.
posted by carsonb at 5:04 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


Watching trump's twitter stream now, i'm becoming convinced this, first mentioned on Friday by Nate Silver, is actually a cogent analysis:

At the end of the day, perhaps typography will be Trump’s downfall
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 5:05 PM on November 11, 2017 [10 favorites]


Obama never looked for a reset with Russia that was contrary to US interests. Improved relations is one thing, compromised by is another.
posted by chris24 at 5:05 PM on November 11, 2017 [11 favorites]


He's also doing this with only one nation between him and North Korea. Granted, that country is China. But still.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:05 PM on November 11, 2017 [1 favorite]


I have checked at least a dozen times to make sure it wasn't a parody account. The first couple of times, I was checking to make sure I wasn't spreading fake news. The checks after that were just hoping it was.
posted by zachlipton at 5:06 PM on November 11, 2017 [16 favorites]


Watching trump's twitter stream now, i'm becoming convinced this, first mentioned on Friday by Nate Silver, is actually a cogent analysis:

At the end of the day, perhaps typography will be Trump’s downfall

Josh agrees.

@joshtpm
He’s owned by a hostile foreign leader. Also 280 killed his tweets.
posted by chris24 at 5:07 PM on November 11, 2017 [13 favorites]


C'mon, this is what 12 days of international travel will do to a guy, h8rs! Twelve days!! So many countries!!!
posted by valetta at 5:07 PM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


can someone please tell me what trump meant by 'misspelled reset button'? is it sheer projection or was there some typo incident i'm failing to remember because it happened in a kinder, less wild time
posted by halation at 5:08 PM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


Welp, the President's insane.

Been nice knowing y'all.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:10 PM on November 11, 2017 [15 favorites]


Giving him more characters was a tremendous mistake.

Echoing Nate Silver, Philip Bump at the WaPo makes the case that, when it comes to character count, less is more for Trump's twitter.
posted by peeedro at 5:10 PM on November 11, 2017 [1 favorite]


3/6/09 - CNN Foreign Affairs Correspondent Jill Dougherty - Clinton 'reset button' gift to Russian FM gets lost in translation
posted by carsonb at 5:11 PM on November 11, 2017 [6 favorites]


"I would like to present you with a little gift that represents what President Obama and Vice President Biden and I have been saying and that is: 'We want to reset our relationship, and so we will do it together.' ...

"We worked hard to get the right Russian word. Do you think we got it?" she asked Lavrov, laughing.

“You got it wrong," said Lavrov, as both diplomats laughed.

“It should be “perezagruzka” [the Russian word for reset]," said Lavrov."This says ‘peregruzka,’ which means ‘overcharged.’”

Mr. Trump ought not be critical of others' spelling errors.
posted by Nekosoft at 5:14 PM on November 11, 2017 [18 favorites]


ah okay so it's both an actual, magnitudes-less-serious mistake clinton made AND it's projection AND the need to scream it out stems from the plumbless depths of his insecurity
aka The Trump Trifecta
posted by halation at 5:15 PM on November 11, 2017 [17 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump
Why would Kim Jong-un insult me by calling me "old," when I would NEVER call him "short and fat?" Oh well, I try so hard to be his friend - and maybe someday that will happen!

When you're 70 and the president of one of the most powerful countries of the world, but inside, you're that backward eight-year-old no one would play with at recess.
posted by orange swan at 5:16 PM on November 11, 2017 [50 favorites]


Editing is a thing.

Trump couldn't really edit his sentence structure without dropping entire chunks of thought, and the result made him sound like an angry toddler.

These recent tweets are sad and rambling, and he just sounds like a lonely, tired old man.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 5:16 PM on November 11, 2017 [4 favorites]


Obama tried also, but he had zero chemistry with Putin.

Oh, come on. I already used my fanfic joke in this thread. What am I supposed to do with this now?
posted by greermahoney at 5:17 PM on November 11, 2017 [12 favorites]


North Korea just called Trump a "dotard" again, almost like they've realized how to push his buttons. He seems extremely concerned about the "old" part, while not mentioning "dotard" and "lunatic."
posted by zachlipton at 5:18 PM on November 11, 2017 [19 favorites]



@realDonaldTrump
Why would Kim Jong-un insult me by calling me "old," when I would NEVER call him "short and fat?" Oh well, I try so hard to be his friend - and maybe someday that will happen!

fake, right? right? Please?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:18 PM on November 11, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'm sorry, Ray.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:19 PM on November 11, 2017


I think he actually is a dotard.
posted by Justinian at 5:20 PM on November 11, 2017 [22 favorites]


Daniel Dale on Twitter: "Kim Jong Un called Trump a 'lunatic old man' who might start a 'nuclear war.' Trump let 'lunatic' and 'nuclear war' slide and complained about 'old.'"
posted by orange swan at 5:21 PM on November 11, 2017 [109 favorites]


James Poniewozik nailed it in one: "Somebody finally fought in Vietnam"
posted by zachlipton at 5:23 PM on November 11, 2017 [27 favorites]


Russia is a dying country. They can't actually win... just take us with them. Which sadly looks more and more likely.

Russia is trying to pull the US down by its right arm. The right arm cannot effectively fight back due to the nature of Russia's grip. A strong enough left arm could pry Russia away and free the right arm to retaliate. In moments of desperation, a sharp enough object could cut off the afflicted portion of the right arm entirely.

While painful, the latter option could possibly result in a cool robotic prosthesis.
posted by Arson Lupine at 5:27 PM on November 11, 2017 [13 favorites]


Why would Kim Jong-un insult me by calling me "old," when I would NEVER call him "short and fat?" Oh well, I try so hard to be his friend - and maybe someday that will happen!

To me it has a sad wistful air of a young teenage girl writing in a diary (with a lock) with a glitter pen. "Dear Diary, boys are weird." A stylised Athena poster hangs above her bed of a shirtless Putin riding a unicorn.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 5:29 PM on November 11, 2017 [24 favorites]


BTW it rhymes with "doddered"...I wish media folks would stop pronouncing it the way people say "retard".
posted by uosuaq at 5:33 PM on November 11, 2017 [3 favorites]


For anyone curious, it’s currently 8:41am in Vietnam. Good luck, everyone. 🍿🍿🍿
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:41 PM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


He's been on a tightly controlled script all week meeting with foreign dignitaries, something had to give and now he's lost control again. It's an inevitable cycle, he can only be contained for a few days at a time before having a meltdown.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:43 PM on November 11, 2017 [10 favorites]


When will all the haters and fools out there realize that having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Since the President has learned of it now, does this mean I have to drop the construction of using a period instead of a question mark after questions.

can't deal with the content, going to my happy grammar-analyzing world/cave
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:45 PM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


BTW it rhymes with "doddered"...I wish media folks would stop pronouncing it the way people say "retard".

To be bit more clear, it's pronounced "doe-turd" unfortunately enough. At least in the US. ("Doddered" makes me think the o is short. And it's maybe 3 syllables.)
posted by greermahoney at 5:47 PM on November 11, 2017 [8 favorites]


I'm not sure if they're pushing his buttons or just running out of new material.

Can you imagine being one of the people in the NK government responsible for writing Trump-trolling press releases? I imagine it's like being one of Colbert's writers, but with less pay and more risk of execution.
posted by allegedly at 5:52 PM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


"Don't call me dotard, not fit to"
posted by Ornate Rocksnail at 5:54 PM on November 11, 2017 [13 favorites]


No. Dot•ard.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 5:54 PM on November 11, 2017


(he is most definitely a dotard tho, as even a tin pot dictator is perfectly fit to evaluate that)
posted by Ornate Rocksnail at 5:56 PM on November 11, 2017


He's a Time Lord, traveling in his DOTARDIS.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:57 PM on November 11, 2017 [10 favorites]


I don't doubt that the Orange Dotard is not having a happy fun presidential time since he came back. Hope Hicks is all set to be interviewed by Mueller next week, lots of Democratic victories in the most recent elections because people are getting sick of all this winning, his popularity stubbornly refuses to budge above the high thirties, he's looking like an albatross to the Republicans instead of an asset...if I were him I'd be taking all the Xanax I could get my hands on.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:01 PM on November 11, 2017


"Echoing Nate Silver, Philip Bump at the WaPo makes the case that, when it comes to character count, less is more for Trump's twitter."

But guys! Our foreign policy is now twice as nuanced!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:02 PM on November 11, 2017 [12 favorites]


I feel bad that a lot of my recent MeFi comments are "wait, I know this is the weirdest timeline, but this shit just got even weirder and why aren't more people talking about it", but ya know...

...the Mike Flynn kidnapping plot is super weird. Why isn't that like, all-caps, alarms-clanging, Volume 11, put on the bat signal news? Even in this thread it seems like it's only been mentioned once or twice after the front matter.

Have I entered an even weirder dimension? Is this what the kids mean when they say lol nothing matters...??

I'm so confused.
posted by mostly vowels at 6:11 PM on November 11, 2017 [53 favorites]


Daniel Dale on Twitter: "Kim Jong Un called Pussy grabber a 'lunatic old man' who might start a 'nuclear war.' Pussy grabber let 'lunatic' and 'nuclear war' slide and complained about 'old.'"

My guess is that 'Dotard' is the only word he didn't know, so when somebody told him it meant 'old' it was the 'who could've known?' aspect of his acquiring knowledge that had to be shared with the world.
posted by carsonb at 6:11 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


oh dear

@realDonaldTrump
Why would Kim Jong-un insult me by calling me "old," when I would NEVER call him "short and fat?" Oh well, I try so hard to be his friend - and maybe someday that will happen!

Lucille Bluth has lost a lot of her edge
posted by schadenfrau at 6:12 PM on November 11, 2017 [40 favorites]


mostly vowels, the Flynn kidnapping thing has been know for several months (I’d guess it first came up in the spring, but with this being 2017, who the fuck knows. If we didn’t know about it before Flynn was fired, then it was soon after).
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:16 PM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


"Why isn't that like, all-caps, alarms-clanging, Volume 11, put on the bat signal news?"

COUNTERSIGNED. It's stunning that that guy was National Security Advisor and we're all like, "sure the dude who had access to pretty much everything was talking to a foreign power about repatriating an exile to them, possibly secretly and/or illegally"
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:17 PM on November 11, 2017 [32 favorites]


To me it has a sad wistful air of a young teenage girl writing in a diary (with a lock) with a glitter pen.

I'm getting a "Long-bearded Howard Hughes in a room full of pee-filled jars" vibe. If HH had had a Samsung 3 and a twitter account.

It's seriously disturbing, as if he's lost the last little marble he had.

And how sad to read it after having just been buoyed by watching a wonderful classic American film about post-WWII, "The Best Years of Our Lives." To be reminded in a well-done, true-ringing piece of fiction about sacrifices of the past (like my parents made too). And then jolted back to the reality of this smarmy, decrepit *thing* currently in the Oval Office.

I choose to think instead about all the inspiring "little" people who've always made the difference, then and now.
posted by NorthernLite at 6:17 PM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


when I would NEVER call him "short and fat?"
You just did, and essentially admitted the accuracy of "old" by throwing back objectively factual (but childish) insulrs.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:18 PM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


the Mike Flynn kidnapping plot is super weird. Why isn't that like, all-caps, alarms-clanging, Volume 11, put on the bat signal news?

Extraordinary rendition is old hat.
posted by Bovine Love at 6:20 PM on November 11, 2017 [1 favorite]


Flynn is involved in so many things at this point, that even if he flips and testifies against Trump, I can't see him getting any personal benefit beyond maybe keeping Flynn Jr out of prison.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:22 PM on November 11, 2017 [1 favorite]


Extraordinary rendition is old hat.

Of someone inside the United States? I mean I wouldn't be surprised but I don't recall something like that ever being publicly known/reported.

Anyway, if I were Gülen I'd be on the phone with Ottawa about taking a bit of a Niagara Falls holiday.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:24 PM on November 11, 2017 [1 favorite]


Extraordinary rendition is old hat.
But getting paid a commission for it is a new wrinkle. And everyone said Trump's people were crappy at monetizing...
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:24 PM on November 11, 2017 [8 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: When will all the haters and fools out there realize …
On the plus side, in every other encounter I've ever had with Trump-level chronic bullshitters powered by ego and little else*, the point at which they start trying to belittle and dismiss everyone who disagrees with them as "haters and fools" is right before the point they fuck off and disappear completely for a few weeks/months.

Well, I'm going to take a little solace from that, even if you can't ;)

On the down side: they always come back…

(* Oh, yeah, I've known a few, both IRL and online …)
posted by Pinback at 6:26 PM on November 11, 2017 [4 favorites]


Regarding the "short and fat" tweet: on top of the sheer batshittedness of it, does anyone else find it odd and kinda significant that it's also a complete sentence?

I'm staring at it thinking, "Wow, this is insane and WTF, and it's...also coherent?"
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:27 PM on November 11, 2017 [8 favorites]


[Here’s a WSJ article from March that discusses the kidnapping plan]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:29 PM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


I try so hard to be his friend

He's been mocking him on Twitter and in campaign rallies for months. I'm so glad he's not trying to be my friend.
posted by greermahoney at 6:35 PM on November 11, 2017 [9 favorites]


Crazy thing is, this is sort of true! US was on a mission to improve relations w/ Russia ... Obama was on board with a decently solid policy and real goals and a plan to meet them. What changed? Congress passed the Magnitsky Act, and Obama was pressured into signing it into law.

You mean, Russia's human rights abuses could no longer be ignored.

The other thing that changed is, Putin won election again. There was a period where Medvedev was president, Putin was nominally not in power, and human rights were supposedly improving - those were the circumstances that led the administration to try to reset relations. All of those things changed.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 6:37 PM on November 11, 2017 [29 favorites]


Obama was on board with a decently solid policy and real goals and a plan to meet them. What changed? Congress passed the Magnitsky Act, and Obama was pressured into signing it into law.

I am pretty sure what changed was that Russia invaded Georgia and Ukraine.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:39 PM on November 11, 2017 [84 favorites]


You think Kim Jong-un is kind of frustrated that even though he's being as bombastic as he can with his rhetoric, these days he ends up being merely correct?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:39 PM on November 11, 2017 [10 favorites]


Yeah that too
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 6:39 PM on November 11, 2017


I try so hard to be his friend

Does that mean he intended 'Rocket Man' to be taken as a compliment?
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:41 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


Thanks y'all - I had seen some references to the fact that the Flynn kidnapping story has had some mention going back months, and I guess this confirms my suspicion that much like soap operas or the comic strip Mary Worth, if you take a 48 hour news break some crazy bullshit will break, and you never quite feel like you can ever really catch up. There's so much crazy fucking bullshit when you hear about it months later, everyone's like "Oh yeah, that happened" and then you go "BUT WHY HAVEN'T WE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT INCESSANTLY?" Like we haven't even been referring to him as "Accessory to kidnapping Flynn".

I think what's also worth noting here is.... I'm a pretty engaged political nerd and was long before the election. I subscribe to multiple newspapers. When I get behind I check WTF Happened Today. I dip into the MeFi political threads. And if someone like me can't keep up with this shit, then I truly don't blame much of the rest of the population for tuning it out. Even though I know that tuning is out is exactly what Trump and his acolytes want to have happen.
posted by mostly vowels at 6:47 PM on November 11, 2017 [25 favorites]


And a Mary Worth reference in the Megathread.

Shit y'all, I'm pretty sure that was the fifth seal.
posted by petebest at 7:00 PM on November 11, 2017 [45 favorites]


Well that doesn't sound so bad, how many seals are there
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:11 PM on November 11, 2017 [39 favorites]


I never thought the Leopard Seal would eat my face
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:12 PM on November 11, 2017 [29 favorites]


Mary Worth? Nah, I'll take Judge Parker, because the guy who does Sally Forth and Medium Large is writing it now and one of the best characters is currently in prison and handling it VERY badly. Now THAT'S a soap opera comic.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:17 PM on November 11, 2017 [4 favorites]


Bloomberg: Trump Says AT&T Deal for Time Warner May End Up in Court. In which Trump projects litigation over his efforts to use the Justice Department in his vendetta against CNN.
posted by zachlipton at 7:23 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


(The AT&T deal is probably bad for consumers and it's not a given that all the fed opposition you are hearing about is because of Trump's feelings towards CNN)
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:31 PM on November 11, 2017 [7 favorites]


The AT&T deal is indeed problematic, mostly for reasons having nothing to do with CNN. I don't personally want such a conglomerate to exist, and I don't come to MetaFilter to shill for AT&T. But to the extent that one could have a reasonable discussion about that, applying anti-trust law to the situation, Trump has taken a dump in the pool and you can't sit around and have that discussion anymore. It's tainted because he's inserted his "enemy of the people" vendetta into the middle of it.

This reminds me of a long comment I wrote back last year, but it's striking how much Trump being Trumpy has foreclosed pretty much all actual discussion about issues. We can't talk about what the right thing to do is, because Trump always wants to do everything for the wrong reasons. It's hard to talk about the reasons CNN, in general, kind of sucks, when fascists are chanting "CNN sucks" at Trump rallies. It just becomes creepy. It's hard to talk about the legitimate problems with Obamacare when Trump is declaring it failed. And it's hard to talk about the AT&T-Time Warner merger when Trump is perverting the Justice Department for personal and political purposes.

It's a strange situation because it's wrong to inherently recoil at his every action without some degree of analysis, but it's impossible because he always acts in bad faith (I am holding my breath for the turkey pardoning). In the rare instance he's not entirely horribly wrong, he's doing it for an entirely horribly wrong reason. And we are nowhere.
posted by zachlipton at 8:07 PM on November 11, 2017 [122 favorites]


We can't talk about what the right thing to do is, because Trump always wants to do everything for the wrong reasons...

This is a really good and important point, zachlipton, and I don't think I've seen it articulated as clearly as you've put it.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:22 PM on November 11, 2017 [14 favorites]


Trump is now saying [video] very confusedly that when he spoke earlier, he was saying that "I believe that he feels that he and Russia did not meddle in the election. As to whether or not I believe it or not, I'm with our agencies."

In other words, he's claiming that his previous statement was supposed to be that Trump thought Putin feels that Putin didn't meddle in the election. I do not know why we care what Putin feels, but here we are. If he's "with our agencies," he's indicating that he really does believe that Russia meddled in the election, but then he has absolutely nothing to say about the actual consequences of that and apparently has no plans to do anything about it.

In short, WTF?
posted by zachlipton at 8:26 PM on November 11, 2017 [49 favorites]


(from the Roy Moore thread)
Advertisers distance themselves from Hannity after Moore coverage.
Tweet and call. "Do you, like Sean Hannity, support "consensual" pedophilia?"
posted by leotrotsky at 8:29 PM on November 11, 2017 [34 favorites]


There's a certain sort that basically saw the US as the biggest threat to global peace,

More than that, if you see all of the actions of the US on the international scene as unmitigated evil. Which you know, you hear on metafilter threads every so often.

If you are part of the Left which believe that America is basically a force for evil, then its easy to get into the mode of believing that anything that weakens the US and its allies is a good thing. So it doesn't matter what anyone says about Russia; either they're lies, or it's a minor thing compared to the necessity of destroying the current regime.
posted by happyroach at 8:30 PM on November 11, 2017 [14 favorites]


Anyone who believes that somebody else have to be "good guys" if we are "bad guys" obviously got all their beliefs about morality from pre-1980 superhero cartoons.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:04 PM on November 11, 2017 [19 favorites]


In short, WTF?

Trump is a moron, and says the obvious thing that he really believes and feels. He has to keep Putin happy, he wants his help again, and he's a horrible liar. McMaster or whoever is on call at the NSC makes an urgent phone call frantically trying to get him to walk it back, Trump mangles the next statement, because he's a moron.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:11 PM on November 11, 2017 [14 favorites]


One of the things that the antiwar left is going to have to come to terms with is exactly how much they got played by Russia.

True, but then the pro-war set got played pretty hard too, no?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:19 PM on November 11, 2017 [9 favorites]


The Whelk: "So the DSA can win elections, now what? A plan to win taken from Sweden"

Free surströmming for everyone?
posted by Chrysostom at 9:29 PM on November 11, 2017 [3 favorites]


ctmf: "Uh, about that... Trump's going to fuck up the census so gerrymandering will be unnecessary."

Gerrymandering relates to district lines within a state. It is not directly impacted by the census. There's is a secondary impact from any reapportionment that takes place, admittedly, but it's not like the census doles out X number of reps for New York City, and Y number for upstate.

Unless you're positing a situation where the administration says, "Wow, literally everyone in Massachusetts moved to Mississippi, how about that!", the impact on House composition should be minor. A fucked up census has lots of other bad impacts, to be sure.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:35 PM on November 11, 2017 [5 favorites]


whenever people in these threads start talking about the latest trump tweet i'm just gonna pretend that that it reads "I MADE A POOPY!!"

cuz that's always the upshot and it's way less likely to start an international incident than what he actually said
posted by murphy slaw at 10:18 PM on November 11, 2017 [13 favorites]


If another disgruntled Twitter employee were to make that an actual reality, I wouldn’t mind.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:29 PM on November 11, 2017 [2 favorites]


Concerning Trump's latest tweet; maybe he was being- 'gasp!'- ironic. Mind you, the dim watt bulb of a junior high bully being ironic, but ironic all the same.

No, I don't believe it either.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 10:37 PM on November 11, 2017


A little too ironic, and yeah I really do think
posted by kirkaracha at 10:42 PM on November 11, 2017 [11 favorites]


Good suggestion from Metafilter's Own mightygodking:
when the Trump regime is finally ousted, a priority for Democrats should be rigorous investigation of all Trump-nominated judges to ensure there were no promises of favourable rulings

because you KNOW some of them made such promises

probably in email

because they're dumb
posted by Chrysostom at 11:07 PM on November 11, 2017 [106 favorites]


In a previous thread I said hold off on the civil war because we were getting a kitten and I wasn't kidding.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:15 PM on November 11, 2017 [65 favorites]


Dogs are way better, but...

What a cute kitty!
posted by Windopaene at 11:33 PM on November 11, 2017


Siamese mix? v. cute! How about a cat tax for the politics threads, every fifth horrible revelation gets kitten pictures?
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 11:51 PM on November 11, 2017 [8 favorites]


Can we take up a collection with the goal of permanently ending Trumps forays onto twitter. You know, there could be a ghost twitter set up, where Trump and some bots would all be interacting with each other but it would be a closed loop but only Trump wouldn't know that.
Or it could be a really diligent troop of hackers who constantly hack his twitter account (sending out tweets like, "Black Lives Matter!" or, "Who should I believe, Putin or our own Intelligence community? Do you have to even ask?") .

I'm not kidding.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:04 AM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


So tonight I went to like the most stereotypical event: a dinner party full of academics , all over 40 all aggressively liberal and well I got kind of political and people where INTO IT. Esp with the socialists winning elections, no one at the party was online at all aside from brief facebooks. They were all very surprised and happy that Socialism is Real Again.

And now I'm flipping the enamel DSA pin I got in the mail over and over and going WELL WHAT IF I GO FOR COMMUNITY COUNCIL WHAT THEN
posted by The Whelk at 12:40 AM on November 12, 2017 [106 favorites]


Let's be honest, the password to Trump's Twitter account is going to be not too difficult to guess, and probably the same as every other account he uses.
posted by Merus at 12:43 AM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


its TRUMP. His password is TRUMP.
posted by Justinian at 12:48 AM on November 12, 2017 [37 favorites]


A gentle reminder that this complete abdication of collective responsibility for fellow humans is not restricted to the US of A: 60,000 march in support of white nationalism in Poland. 60,000. That is not a handful.

We have to start having discussions that are not predicated upon a return to business as usual, and that are not situated within the usual scaffolds of institutional power.
posted by stonepharisee at 2:26 AM on November 12, 2017 [82 favorites]


I remember the delirious joy when the Berlin wall came down and we thought that history had ended, and fraternité would now be the order of the day. Turkey was going to join the EU, NATO's peace would wash over Eastern Europe, and everybody would be happy and secure.

Well, that didn't happen.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:49 AM on November 12, 2017 [53 favorites]


60,000 march in support of white nationalism in Poland.

Inspired/encouraged in part by Trump’s fascist speech in Warsaw in July. Amazing that the country who lost over 400,000 lives fighting to stop fascism in Europe is now a contributor to it.

“Some participants marched under the slogan “We Want God”, words from an old Polish religious song that the US president, Donald Trump, quoted during a visit to Warsaw earlier this year.”
posted by chris24 at 2:52 AM on November 12, 2017 [33 favorites]


Did he really? I wonder who fed him the line. Gorka, maybe? It's clearly a dog-whistle.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:59 AM on November 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


Inspired/encouraged in part by Trump’s fascist speech in Warsaw in July. Amazing that the country who lost over 400,000 lives fighting to stop fascism in Europe is now a contributor to it.

Yeah, well, I'm a descendant of Jewish Polish refugees, and ... "It's complicated", but I'm not surprised.
posted by mikelieman at 3:22 AM on November 12, 2017 [23 favorites]


DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”
Rod Rosenstein: We should weigh “law enforcement equities” against security.
posted by XMLicious at 3:24 AM on November 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

So it goes living in a "Free Society" instead of a totalitarian surveillance state.
posted by mikelieman at 3:32 AM on November 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


60,000 march in support of white nationalism in Poland.

So I just canceled a trip to Poland — to Katowice, in point of fact, which is the city closest to the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex — on the strength of this news.

My hosts, needless to say, are not pleased. They make the point that in cutting them off from conversations with people from abroad, I'm only punishing the enlightened, progressive people, and rewarding the antisemites and the fascists.

And there may be a grain of truth to this. But you know what? I'm not buying it. Not this time. The people there who do not believe these things — and I'm sure they are many — can still organize. They can tell the fascists how they're scaring away contacts from overseas, turning the whole culture inward in a way that takes years or decades to recover from, and shedding great and lasting shame on the nation in so doing.

I'm sure that wouldn't be without risk — of course it wouldn't. We are, after all, talking about the fash. But the people who believe in internationalism and progress and so on have to believe that there's a risk in not acting now, too. They have to stand up for openness and the other values they hold. They have to put their bodies on the line if they want to save the country they love and the web of overseas connections they cherish. That's their job, not mine or anyone else's, just as it's my job and not anyone else's to fight rising fascism in the US and here in the UK.

You know what I'd like to see from institutions throughout Eastern Europe that want to work with people like me? I'd like to see them issue prominent, public and above all proud statements from them renouncing these fascist movements, at whatever risk. Then and only then will I feel like it's fair to ask folks like me to take the risk of coming. Otherwise they put nothing on the line, while we gamble everything.

And may your name be a calumny forever, Donald Trump, for authorizing and validating this slide back into fascism, whether it's in Charlottesville or Warsaw.
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:02 AM on November 12, 2017 [90 favorites]


We can't talk about what the right thing to do is, because Trump always wants to do everything for the wrong reasons.

No, criticism predicated on facts and/or principles is not invalidated by the fact that whatever's being criticised was also the subject of spurious/incoherent complaints by someone dangerous. One should always talk about what the right thing to do is, even if it makes the tribal divisions confusing to the casual observer or whatever.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:38 AM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


No, criticism predicated on facts and/or principles is not invalidated by the fact that whatever's being criticised was also the subject of spurious/incoherent complaints by someone dangerous. One should always talk about what the right thing to do is, even if it makes the tribal divisions confusing to the casual observer or whatever.

This ignores the influence of a totalizing politics such as we've seen developing the past decade or so and particularly in the past few years. Facts and principles become politicized themselves, and the "right thing to do" becomes first and foremost to destroy the enemy.
posted by dmh at 5:31 AM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


I'm having trouble imagining Trump pronouncing anything in Polish.
posted by acb at 5:45 AM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'm having trouble imagining Trump pronouncing anything in Polish. fify
posted by halation at 5:53 AM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


A gentle reminder that this complete abdication of collective responsibility for fellow humans is not restricted to the US of A: 60,000 march in support of white nationalism in Poland. 60,000. That is not a handful.

What's worse is that these sentiments are actively supported by the party in power, to quote from the Guardian article:
"It was a beautiful sight," the interior minister, Mariusz Blaszczak, said. "We are proud that so many Poles have decided to take part in a celebration connected to the Independence Day holiday."
Exceptions notwithstanding, this attitude is pretty common in the Visegrad nations on the eastern edge of Europe. Part of it is anti-communist / anti-internationalist sentiment, part of it is just bog-standard xenophobia and racism. The parts can't be readily separated.
posted by dmh at 6:16 AM on November 12, 2017 [20 favorites]


DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”
Rod Rosenstein: We should weigh “law enforcement equities” against security.

Brb buying copies of Applied Cryptography and burying them like a crypto-squirrel getting ready for the totalitarian winter.
posted by dis_integration at 6:20 AM on November 12, 2017 [31 favorites]


Can we take up a collection with the goal of permanently ending Trumps forays onto twitter.

We can, but that's more of a Shelbyville idea . . . I stand before you good people tonight to say we've got collection plate that fights Twitting right here in River City!

Well sure, I'm an anti-Klownwig Tweetin' man, mighty proud to say it. The friggin hours I spend with that app in my hand are golden. But friends have you noticed tweets are run by misogynistic Nazi sympathizers with no place to discuss it?! We'll lets organize the River City MetaMegathread!

I see 4,559 of you good people have given already - given up a sandwich, given up a drive in that beautiful car we own just to keep the blue lights on! But we can do better! Just imagine: Forty-six hundred! Boom- a new block of storage for the zalex wing! Forty-eight hundred! Pow!- "The Cakebets of MetaFilter; Darkest Timeline, Sweetest Wins" coffee table book! And then,

Five thousand! 5,000 donations and the Megathreads begin to load easily - like a gently melting frozen Macchiato on a warm summer's day. Why 5,000 might just be the chaos butterfly that tips the Mullermas applecart onto all the little Trumpholes! There's only one way to find out for sure! Donate or join (again?) today!
posted by petebest at 6:29 AM on November 12, 2017 [30 favorites]


*shouts from back*

Save our Megathreads!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:35 AM on November 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


And now, Remedial Colluding With Russia for the Time-Impaired. via PoliticalWire

Jonathan Chait [NYMag]: “There are several channels through which Donald Trump’s campaign apparently [sic] cooperated with Russian efforts to help him win the presidency.

The first, and best known, is a Trump Tower meeting in June 2016 to pursue Russian promises of providing dirt on Hillary Clinton.

A second is Roger Stone, a frequent Trump adviser who had clear advance notice of the publication of stolen emails.

A third is Trump himself openly asking Russia to obtain Clinton’s State Department emails.

The final channel ["latest"] is the efforts by Cambridge Analytica, the campaign’s data firm. This channel is less well known to the public, in part because reporting about it has been dominated by The Wall Street Journal, and its stories hidden behind a paywall. But Cambridge Analytica’s role has come into much clearer focus.”

“Two weeks ago, the Journal reported that Alexander Nix, the CEO of Cambridge Analytica, reached out to WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange to help him better organize the stolen Democratic emails his site was publishing. On Friday, the Journal found that this contact came as Cambridge Analytica was joining the Trump campaign.”
posted by petebest at 7:08 AM on November 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


Meanwhile, in the cesspool that is NC politics, our idiot Lt Gov is funneling dark money under the guise of a "non-profit" for his own brainwashing tv station.

What the goddamn motherfucking fuck? This is the same asshole whose campaign slogan was the very unoriginal Run Forest Run line.
posted by yoga at 7:26 AM on November 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


Seth Abramson: Trump rigged the 2002 Miss Universe pageant for Vladimir Putin's mistress.
posted by box at 7:53 AM on November 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


its TRUMP. His password is TRUMP.

or 1TRUMP1.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:53 AM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Brb buying copies of Applied Cryptography and burying them like a crypto-squirrel getting ready for the totalitarian winter.

The stupid thing is, you can bury encrypted ciphertext in anything. OK. Sure. You can have an escrow key. I'm just sending a cat picture to my friend. But inside that cat picture is stenographic data that's encrypted with a second key from a version of PGP pre-facism. I can happily burn a sacrificial key for the authorities to think I'm innocuous.
posted by Talez at 7:57 AM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


> Seth Abramson: Trump rigged the 2002 Miss Universe pageant for Vladimir Putin's mistress.

Interestingly, the Wikipedia entry for Oxana Federova, who won the 2002 Miss Universe title (and was subsequently dethroned, perhaps for being pregnant?) does not mention any connection to one V. Putin esq. Is anybody keeping a concerted eye on how Wikipedia is altered as the news stories come and go?
posted by stonepharisee at 8:02 AM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'm going down the route of "one-time pads disguised as sudoku puzzles" myself.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 8:03 AM on November 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


There’s a finite number of Sudoku puzzles though so not a great source of keys
posted by phearlez at 8:05 AM on November 12, 2017


I can happily burn a sacrificial key for the authorities to think I'm innocuous.

They know that. However, it would likely play out as an enhancement after they corner you with parallel construction, a legalistic rubber hose.
posted by rhizome at 8:09 AM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Kitten name?

Sable
AKA Sable-tooth tiger
posted by kirkaracha at 8:43 AM on November 12, 2017 [20 favorites]


For what it's worth, there were countermarches in Warsaw, and generally marches against the Republican-analogues currently in power are exceedingly well-attended, to the point where they've folded on some particularly odious things (while pushing others through because ARGH). For years the fascist marches were blocked completely by counterprotestors, but current government turning a blind eye to them means they get permits and the counterprotestors don't. Those counterprotestors who went up against the actual march were often in physical danger - one woman's hair was set on fire, several people were in brawls, and the police generally focussed on arresting counterprotestors no matter what the fascists were doing.

Poland is... complicated, is probably a good word, but the whole homegrown fascism movement is some bloody Milo Yiannopoulos thing, signing up for the same ideology that several decades ago killed millions of Polish citizens because otherwise they'd have to face the fact that to Western fascists and Nazis, all Slavs are vermin and at best potential slaves. Thank heavens we also have big contingents of people who don't put up with this, including our lovely Antifa and anarchists who show up at women's marches and Pride with gear on and ready to block any right-wing idiots.

Now if only our opposition would get their act together and put together a movement that could win an election against those louts. After 8 years of centrist pro-EU government it's looking worse than the DNC, and the only competent schemer of the lot is kind of busy with making sure the UK realises Brexit will leave them penniless and shoeless.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 8:53 AM on November 12, 2017 [47 favorites]


if you see all of the actions of the US on the international scene as unmitigated evil

Definitely not, but from an outside perspective I don't think the US takes any action on the international stage without a strong, self-interested motive, so hardly unmitigated good either.
posted by walrus at 9:12 AM on November 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


This tweet is so childish, Roy Moore wants to date it.
posted by notsnot at 9:22 AM on November 12, 2017 [44 favorites]


Aaaand the pee tape rises again:
(21) According to a BBC report that directly quotes the CIA, the Kremlin has a tape "of a sexual nature" taken of Donald Trump while he was in St. Petersburg. Trump's longest trips to that city appear to have been related to Fedorova's 2002 pageant win.
from the Seth Abramson tweet linked above.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:37 AM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


That BBC article is from January. It's the same pee tape allegations from the same reports. Let's not pay any more attention to Seth Abramson, please.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:41 AM on November 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


Hey, if the President can endlessly repeat factually inaccurate statements, why can't everybody? Let's just not pay any more attention to Twitter, please.

And considering this Jay Rosen piece about the New York Times' social media policy, the belief that Twitter can provide anything of value to people who want real information is now totally dead.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:48 AM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


I like the various themed dog, cat, and other animal feeds though.
posted by VTX at 9:57 AM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


The stupid thing is, you can bury encrypted ciphertext in anything.

Can, but do you want to risk it when the government makes that a felony if caught? Or if suspicion of that gets you on an un-appealable no-fly list or extra surveillance? (Or what I think rhizome said)
posted by ctmf at 10:02 AM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


That's dumb.
That's Twitter.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:12 AM on November 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


Gerrymandering relates to district lines within a state. It is not directly impacted by the census.

How do you know where to draw the lines? How do you know to challenge the ones they draw? And don't forget "they" are willing to play games with voter registration databases and/or "accidentally" leave them poorly secured so someone else can. It's not a single thing, it's a broad-based attack from all angles on how our representative democracy even works. You don't have to make a big obvious attack at the root of the fishbone diagram if you subtly fuck up the input at every. single. leaf.
posted by ctmf at 10:16 AM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


That BBC article is from January. It's the same pee tape allegations from the same reports.

The BBC stands by that January article, and its author, Paul Wood, is an award-winning journalist with his own intelligence sources to corroborate Chris Steele's as far as the existence of some kind of kompromat on Trump. Nor should it be surprising that his CIA sources dried up as soon as Trump loyalist Mike Pompeo took over at Langley.

In addition, Wood reported in August:
At a news conference this week at his New Jersey golf club, the President bizarrely asserted that the Steele dossier had been paid for by Russia in order to damage him. This is the latest twist in Trump’s response to the dossier, which began with flat denials in January that he had been filmed by Russian intelligence with prostitutes in a Moscow hotel room.

That remains unproven. Nevertheless, Steele is not the only source. I heard of Russian kompromat — compromising material — on Trump from two sources months before the Steele dossier came to light. That might be evidence for Trump’s statement that Russian intelligence, as well as the US agencies, are out to get him. There are, though, reports of witnesses in the hotel who corroborate Steele’s reporting. These include an American who’s said to have seen a row with hotel security over whether the (alleged) hookers would be allowed up to Trump’s suite. The dossier’s account of hookers in a Moscow hotel room was the subject of gossip among a select group of journalists, politicians, and intelligence people for months before it was published. Now, claims are circulating of more tapes showing even more extreme behaviour. {emphasis added}
And just this Friday, John Schindler, a former NSA analyst and Naval War College professor, wrote an update on the kropromat tape topic:
As many as a dozen intelligence services worldwide, on four continents, are in possession of some sort of “Trump tape” featuring sexual escapades of a controversial nature; in some cases, the women involved appear to be underage. Some of these tapes have been shared with the Mueller investigation.

One Western intelligence agency with a solid professional reputation is in possession of an unpleasant Trump tape that they assess “with high confidence” is bona fide, i.e. exactly what it appears to be. They obtained the tape from a trusted source who plausibly had access to it.{...}

However, here’s the rub: Many of the “Trump tapes” floating around in spy circles worldwide cannot be verified, while some of them are obvious fakes. The Western spy agency that’s holding a Trump tape they’re pretty sure is real has also been approached two other times with tapes that were less solid—and one of them was transparently fake.

It’s obvious to savvy Western counterspies that someone is spreading fake Trump tapes—not all of them high quality—to muddy the waters. The obvious suspect, of course, is the Kremlin. Since the Russians know all about President Trump’s decades of personal antics, including what kompromat exists on him, they appear to be pushing dubious and unverifiable tapes, some of them obviously fake, to create chaos and confusion.
That leaves it for us to decide for ourselves if the krompromat tape can still be considered a real possibility or should be dismissed as disinformation. While Steele, Schindler, and Wood aren't unimpeachable sources, they're sufficiently creditable that we can at least take into account their assessments (and say what you will about Seth Abramson's sometimes hyperbolic conclusions, at least he shows his work).

In the meantime, Trump certainly continues to behave as though Putin's blackmailing him. You can bet, however, that if and when Putin finally decides to burn Trump, he's going to leak a fake video first. Moscow does not believe in tears.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:29 AM on November 12, 2017 [48 favorites]


Can, but do you want to risk it when the government makes that a felony if caught? Or if suspicion of that gets you on an un-appealable no-fly list or extra surveillance? (Or what I think rhizome said)

You can always use a deniable cryptographic system such as the Rubber Hose filesystem invented by...Julian Assange. It uses multiple independent keys & can be decrypted with any of them to reveal different plaintexts. You're forced to give up the password? Give them one protecting something innocuous while keeping the true secret secret.
posted by scalefree at 10:35 AM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Jonathan Chait [NYMag]: “There are several channels through which Donald Trump’s campaign apparently [sic] cooperated with Russian efforts to help him win the presidency.

Chait missed one. GOP operative Peter W Smith & the company he created to track down a lead on Hillary's emails, KLS Research, LLC.
posted by scalefree at 10:44 AM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


"Gerrymandering relates to district lines within a state. It is not directly impacted by the census."

It's definitely directly impacted by the census. I oversaw a local redistricting, and creating the same-size districts occurs 100% based on census data. If you are under any federal consent orders (to ensure minority representation), you use the census data in creating federally-compliant majority-minority districts. You can't even begin the process -- and this was just for a small three-district school board for a city of 110,000 -- until you have the census data that is the official record of where people live. If you redistrict without it, your map can be struck down because it doesn't accord with the legal map of where people live. (And, as a school district, we actually have PRETTY GREAT, constantly-updated maps of where people live, because we have to constantly adjust school cachement boundaries so that we don't end up with one elementary school with 800 students and another with 200 students, which involves constantly-updating data on housing density, family size, family composition, etc.)

Anyway, census data is absolutely used for internal gerrymandering. Like, that's literally how they do it, they get the census data and then they sit down with their redistricting programs and start gaming out the district lines. Bad census data -- like deliberately undercounting big cities (that tend to vote liberal) and lefty suburbs, and overcounting rural areas and righty suburbs, could shift a district Republican pretty damn easily, and end up with a rural GOP district that represents, say, 250,000 people and an urban Dem district that represents 500,000 people, making GOP voters worth 2 Democratic voters, while officially the districts are the "same size." It's like a 3/5th compromise, but achieved entirely through census chicanery and gerrymandering.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:45 AM on November 12, 2017 [74 favorites]


such as the Rubber Hose filesystem

That's interesting. What happens if the hypothetical FBI agent asks you to write something to the filesystem?
posted by ctmf at 10:47 AM on November 12, 2017


That's interesting. What happens if the hypothetical FBI agent asks you to write something to the filesystem?

You unlock the innocuous branch & write to it; the incriminating one stays encrypted & undetected until its key is given.
posted by scalefree at 10:55 AM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


How do you know where to draw the lines?
The conditions for and methods undertaking of drawing voting districts is defined by a state's legislature, except as indicated by change in population identified by each decennial census, because the US Constitution requires findings of such to allocate the number of delegates ( "representative") to the House of Representatives each state receives. Enlarge the map to see reapportionment attributable to 2010 census.

The Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929 limited the total number of delegates to the House of Representatives regardless of total US population. Thus, each state may lose or gain seats according to census finding of its population size. Some states subscribe to census bureau statistical products to determine how population within its state has changed demographically, geographically. This information may provoke re-drawing of any and all voting districts (by dominant parties' members) within the state with the supervision of the secretary of state.

The comment , "Gerrymandering relates to district lines within a state. It is not directly impacted by the census," is spurious. Gerrymandering is a method of defining voting districts whose sole purpose is to create or preserve the numerical advantage of a particular party.
posted by marycatherine at 10:58 AM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Here is an information page describing some of the statistical products offered to states' authorities by the US Bureau of the Census.
posted by marycatherine at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2017


The basic idea is to take multiple plaintexts, encrypt each with different keys then interleave the resulting cyphertexts. One key reveals your true secret text, the other reveals something else.
posted by scalefree at 11:04 AM on November 12, 2017


You unlock the innocuous branch & write to it;

Not to continue the sidebar, but "Therefore, a Rubberhose disk can only be safely written to after all the passphrases have been entered. " Either you're going to get a "can't do that" message, or you overwrite random data in your hidden partitions.

At the point the FBI is standing behind my chair asking me to do things, I think I'd prefer the silent blowing away of the secret data. (thank you, backup strategy) The "need all your other passphrases" prompt could be embarrassing. But without the prompt, I'd be constantly accidentally wiping out my own data and having to restore from backup.
posted by ctmf at 11:07 AM on November 12, 2017


Julian may be a corrupt, paranoid, accellerationist asshole but he's a really smart corrupt, paranoid, accellerationist asshole.
posted by scalefree at 11:09 AM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Not to continue the sidebar, but "Therefore, a Rubberhose disk can only be safely written to after all the passphrases have been entered. " Either you're going to get a "can't do that" message, or you overwrite random data in your hidden partitions.

Then you lose access to your secret data but walk out a free man.
posted by scalefree at 11:11 AM on November 12, 2017


I'm having trouble imagining Trump

...full stop.
posted by loquacious at 11:16 AM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Why would Putin release a fake tape first?
To enjoy the show?
Because the inability to feel certainty and to be able to trust *anything* as being true is more valuable in the long run. (Aleksandr Dugin political theory)
posted by Golem XIV at 11:17 AM on November 12, 2017 [62 favorites]


It's the same pee tape allegations from the same reports.

well, color me confused. This pee tape is alluded to be from 2002. On Thursday, Keith "We don't do that type of stuff" Schiller testified about Moscow in 2013. He began working for Trump full-time after his retirement from the force in 2002. Did they ask him about *that* trip?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 11:23 AM on November 12, 2017


Continuing this brief PSA encryption digression, if we ever find ourselves in that particular dystopia, never forget the social engineering half of Rubberhose usage: you have to make sure your "innocuous" encrypted data is not actually innocuous, but something you might plausibly have gone through the trouble of encrypting. So not just pornography, but some form of vaguely embarrassing pornography -- not illegal or blackmail-worthy, but something you might plausibly have hidden under more than just "system_file_01," and might plausibly have briefly resisted handing over.
posted by chortly at 11:28 AM on November 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


Former CIA Director John Brennan: President Trump is either intimidated by or afraid of Russian President Vladimir Putin. [CNN, autoplay]
posted by Rykey at 11:29 AM on November 12, 2017 [47 favorites]


you have to make sure your "innocuous" encrypted data is not actually innocuous, but something you might plausibly have gone through the trouble of encrypting.

You could just use, like, Pope based fan-fiction

The Pope traveling the world, solving crimes, not seducing beautiful women
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:33 AM on November 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


Continuing this brief PSA encryption digression, if we ever find ourselves in that particular dystopia, never forget the social engineering half of Rubberhose usage: you have to make sure your "innocuous" encrypted data is not actually innocuous, but something you might plausibly have gone through the trouble of encrypting.

Wrapping it up, in the spy world this is is called a "limited hangout". You give up a lesser but still plausible secret to protect a bigger one.
posted by scalefree at 11:33 AM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Bah, sorry about the bad link above. Fixed on edit.
posted by Rykey at 11:34 AM on November 12, 2017


This is almost enough to tempt me from Safari to Chrome.

@riseuphes
I have a chrome extension that makes all of trump's tweets seem like they were written in crayon. This one is just a little too real for my taste.

SCREENSHOT OF "SHORT & FAT" TWEET
posted by chris24 at 11:35 AM on November 12, 2017 [39 favorites]


I just bought a copy of Alice in Wonderland, but that doesn't come close to what I just read (thanks @ jenfullmoon) about Sweet Valley High.

Interesting and terrifying to see how this stuff can frame the teen mindset
posted by Myeral at 11:38 AM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


ctmf: "How do you know where to draw the lines? How do you know to challenge the ones they draw? "

The parties are actually extremely aware of voting totals down to the precinct level.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:58 AM on November 12, 2017


Twitter is sometimes good. Especially when Molly - AKA The Thing of Evil - is involved
posted by Myeral at 12:04 PM on November 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


It’s scary that the whole nazi revivalist movement in Charlottesville was just about three months ago.

Since then we’ve had multiples indictments, a guilty plea, endless international incidents, a steady escalation of the Russia investigation, two of the worst mass shootings in our country’s history, a reinterpretation of the civil war by the chief of staff, suspicious military deaths, the resignation of the secretary of HHS, a senate race in Alabama that has half the republic revising their views on child abuse, and god knows what else that got pushed out of my scandal-addled brain.

Three. Months.
posted by milarepa at 12:14 PM on November 12, 2017 [66 favorites]


I don't see any way Trump is anywhere but at the heart of this. Buckle up, buttercups.
Spencer Ackerman: Perhaps the most disturbing story I have ever reported in ~15 years of covering national security is coming your way this evening.
posted by scalefree at 12:17 PM on November 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


David Frum: These Are Not The Actions of an Innocent Man: Trump’s after-the-fact complicity in Russia’s election meddling is abundantly clear.
posted by homunculus at 12:24 PM on November 12, 2017 [24 favorites]


Doktor Zed: "As many as a dozen intelligence services worldwide, on four continents, are in possession of some sort of “Trump tape” featuring sexual escapades of a controversial nature; in some cases, the women involved appear to be underage. Some of these tapes have been shared with the Mueller investigation."

Holy Fuck, if true how does Mueller not have a face splitting grin 24/7/365?

chortly: " you have to make sure your "innocuous" encrypted data is not actually innocuous, but something you might plausibly have gone through the trouble of encrypting."

This is why I've been video taping my showers since 1996.
posted by Mitheral at 12:40 PM on November 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


Holy Fuck, if true how does Mueller not have a face splitting grin 24/7/365?

Stone cold fucking professionalism. It's a rare and beautiful thing.
posted by jammer at 12:44 PM on November 12, 2017 [47 favorites]


ackerman, damnit, i have work to do. don't make me sit around F5ing all day, give me a delivery window a little more narrow than 'this evening,' at least

Holy Fuck, if true how does Mueller not have a face splitting grin 24/7/365?

maybe he's still waiting to get his hands on the real one
posted by halation at 12:48 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


how does Mueller not have a face splitting grin 24/7/365?

I don't think Mueller takes any joy in his job. I think he's just appalled that our country has to suffer through this.
posted by Soliloquy at 12:57 PM on November 12, 2017 [43 favorites]


He's very good at a job I would never want to have.
posted by rhizome at 1:02 PM on November 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


I don't see any way Trump is anywhere but at the heart of this.

Maybe, but Ackerman's recent reporting has been on the stunning recent events surrounding the Gitmo tribunal for the "mastermind" of the USS Cole Bombing in 2000, Abd al Rahim al Nashiri. From the first Ackerman link:
[The judge, Air Force Col. Vance] Spath on Wednesday took the unprecedented step of convicting the Chief of Defense Counsel in the Military Commissions, Marine Brig. Gen. John Baker, for refusing to reinstate Eliades, Spears and their colleague, Rick Kammen, as Nashiri’s lawyers. As first reported by the Miami Herald’s Carol Rosenberg, all three attorneys quit the death penalty case earlier this month after suspecting that the government had been spying on their communications, a violation of longstanding principles of fair trial in civilian courts.
Maybe the civilian attorneys have been rendered to Guantanamo Bay.
posted by pjenks at 1:03 PM on November 12, 2017 [15 favorites]


Holy Fuck, if true how does Mueller not have a face splitting grin 24/7/365?

If you'd seen a Trump kompromat video, you'd have a haunted, end-of-the-world look for the rest of your entire life too. The horror...the horror.
posted by reynir at 1:05 PM on November 12, 2017 [18 favorites]


I mean, in a sense he's the federal government's disciplinarian right now. How fucked up is having to be That Parent to these people, these grown-ass men. Like, I'm sure many of us have known sketchy people at some time or another, but much more rarely an entire group of scoff- and outlaws. And this is the government! I'm sure "That's a paddlin'" can't come close to relieving the melancholy.
posted by rhizome at 1:09 PM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Soliloquy: I think he's just appalled that our country has to suffer through this.

Yes. Sort of like this.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:10 PM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


If you'd seen a Trump kompromat video, you'd have a haunted, end-of-the-world look for the rest of your entire life too. The horror...the horror.

Little known fact for those who'd never seen a picture of him before last summer: Mueller's only 28 years old.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:12 PM on November 12, 2017 [59 favorites]


Thank you, Spencer Ackerman. Now I will be in fight or flight mode until the story drops. I'm expecting something like TRUMP GAVE PUTIN NUCLEAR CODES or maybe something like ALIENS CONTROL TRUMP'S BRAIN. There, now whatever fresh horror will be somewhat less terrible than I've imagined.
posted by angrycat at 1:17 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Maybe, but Ackerman's recent reporting has been on the stunning recent events surrounding the Gitmo tribunal

This is yet another thing that should be an all-consuming scandal for the government absorbing incredible media attention...but it's not, because holy shit, everything is a raging garbage fire.

The garbage fire is so huge it's giving cover to other garbage fires.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:21 PM on November 12, 2017 [28 favorites]


Perhaps the most disturbing story I have ever reported in ~15 years of covering national security is coming your way this evening.

It can't be this, can it? Because that's pretty fucking disturbing.
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:22 PM on November 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


For what it's worth, there were countermarches in Warsaw,

Also, thanks for this reminder, I claim sanctuary.
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:24 PM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


Little known fact for those who'd never seen a picture of him before last summer: Mueller's only 28 years old.

Jared Kushner's un-evil twin!

lawful-neutral twin?
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:26 PM on November 12, 2017


It can't be this, can it? Because that's pretty fucking disturbing.

Don't see Ackerman's byline on it so probably not.
posted by scalefree at 1:29 PM on November 12, 2017


Don't see Ackerman's byline on it so probably not.

Well, yes. But you know sometimes multiple teams of journalists converge on the same core drama, in an attempt to report it out before others are able to do so, and very often the race to publish first comes down to the wire. The scoop is alive!
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:35 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.

This line from rules for suriving autocracy is what keeps me up at night and repeats itself during the endless waves of anxiety that exhaust me during the day.
posted by milarepa at 1:39 PM on November 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


@aravosis
Former CIA director John Brennan suggests to @jaketapper on @CNNSotu that
the Russians do in fact have compromising information on @realDonaldTrump

VIDEO
posted by chris24 at 1:52 PM on November 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


if so many people have so many trump tapes, real or fake, why haven't any of them been leaked?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:52 PM on November 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


THE PRESIDENT'S BRAIN IS MISSING
posted by kirkaracha at 1:53 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Eh, did John Brennan really suggest that, or did he just not answer the question?
posted by zachlipton at 1:54 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


why haven't any of them been leaked?


Hey-o.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:55 PM on November 12, 2017 [25 favorites]


Eh, did John Brennan really suggest that, or did he just not answer the question?

He just did not answer the question. I see no "suggestion" here.
posted by jammer at 1:56 PM on November 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


if so many people have so many trump tapes, real or fake, why haven't any of them been leaked?

I think this type of material falls into three categories:
1) Materials relevant to the ongoing criminal investigation. [e.g. Pee Tape]
2) Materials irrelevant to the ongoing criminal investigation and illegally obtained or whose distribution would be illegal and traceable. [e.g. The Apprentice tapes]
3) Materials irrelevant to the ongoing criminal investigation and obtained via methods grey enough to not get anyone sued / jailed. [e.g. Access Hollywood hot mic]

#1 and #2 aren't leaked for fairly obvious reasons. #3? Well, it's possible there isn't much out there. It's also possible that, given what is already in the public space wasn't enough to prevent people from electing the fucker to the highest office in the land, people in possession of such material don't feel like putting themselves out there just to do...no good whatsoever.
posted by Room 101 at 1:58 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


#4 The desire of legitimate news agencies to only release confirmed information
#5 The desire for the manufacturers of the fakes to have them released through these legitimate news agencies in order to damage their reputations.
posted by milarepa at 2:03 PM on November 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


Maybe the pee tape is so horrifying, people who've seen it can't stand to think about it

Did you ever see that movie Society
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:05 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Maybe we should try to get encryption re-classified as a munition, so that the NRA will qrsraq bhe tbq-tvira evtug gb orne nezf.

Oh, so I can become an international arms dealer AGAIN like I did back in the Clinton days?

(I am becoming a goddamn Moorcock character... Ordained minister, international arms dealer...)
posted by Samizdata at 2:06 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Jerry Cornelius, is that you?
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:33 PM on November 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


if so many people have so many trump tapes, real or fake, why haven't any of them been leaked?

Nobody has a VCR.
posted by rhizome at 2:34 PM on November 12, 2017 [49 favorites]


I got junk mail for a Donald Trump commemorative coin.
posted by bongo_x at 2:41 PM on November 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


I say buy lo, sell high.
posted by stonepharisee at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2017


I got junk mail for a Donald Trump commemorative coin.

So, it's basically a Pissing Calvin coin?
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 2:53 PM on November 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


The Trump kompromat tape is like Ringu, only more horrifying.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 2:54 PM on November 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


So slightly horrifying?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:55 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Jerry Cornelius, is that you?

Apparently so.
posted by Samizdata at 3:03 PM on November 12, 2017


USA TODAY: Army lifts ban on waivers for recruits with history of some mental health issues
People with a history of “self-mutilation,” bipolar disorder, depression and drug and alcohol abuse can now seek waivers to join the Army under an unannounced policy enacted in August, according to documents obtained by USA TODAY.

The decision to open Army recruiting to those with mental health conditions comes as the service faces the challenging goal of recruiting 80,000 new soldiers through September 2018. To meet last year's goal of 69,000, the Army accepted more recruits who fared poorly on aptitude tests, increased the number of waivers granted for marijuana use and offered hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses.

Expanding the waivers for mental health is possible in part because the Army now has access to more medical information about each potential recruit, Lt. Col. Randy Taylor, an Army spokesman, said in a statement. The Army issued the ban on waivers in 2009 amid an epidemic of suicides among troops.
posted by indubitable at 3:05 PM on November 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


USA TODAY: Army lifts ban on waivers for recruits with history of some mental health issues

Presented without comment it sounds like this is supposed to be a bad thing, but I don't really see why...
posted by dis_integration at 3:08 PM on November 12, 2017


I got junk mail for a Donald Trump commemorative coin.

Have you seen the Trumpy Bear commercials? [real]
posted by rhizome at 3:10 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


This is a very bad thing indeed. This is a lowering of any sanity check for those who in life may be willing to admit some level of surrender to agencies beyond themselves. Some do so and all is well. But sanity checks need to be in place. They are anxious to fill the ranks. Bad news.
posted by stonepharisee at 3:11 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Did the suicide rate go down? If your action doesn't help achieve the goal, but is hurting you elsewhere, it makes sense to stop doing the action.
posted by ctmf at 3:14 PM on November 12, 2017


I was reading most recent backwards, and for a moment it seemed like stonepharisee was responding to the existence of Trumpy Bear and I was like yeah deep hot take.
posted by angrycat at 3:21 PM on November 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


Man, thanks for that angrycat. That retrofitted me perfectly. Now I have two pasts.
posted by stonepharisee at 3:24 PM on November 12, 2017


Did the suicide rate go down? If your action doesn't help achieve the goal, but is hurting you elsewhere, it makes sense to stop doing the action.

Bowe Bergdahl received a waiver to join the Army after washing out of the Coast Guard due to panic/mental issues, and his subsequent DUSTWUN episode put a great number of people in harm's way, so there's more at stake than just the suicide rate.
posted by bluecore at 3:29 PM on November 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


Social media giant Facebook sued the Internal Revenue Service, claiming the right to appeal a finding of taxes owed on transfer of Facebook’s worldwide operations to a subsidiary domiciled in Ireland "just like any other business does." Besides, Facebook attys argue in the complaint, the IRS has been unsuccessful recovering back-taxes from similar transfer pricing and sales schemes.

Those of you who would defend "taxpayer" Facebook from the IRS may recall Jack Lew's defense of Apple last year, when the EC initiated collection of $14.5 billion in back taxes purportedly "intended for the US treasury." Paradoxically, Lew also wrote in his WSJ OpEd that the EC's ruling "underscored the need for urgent reforms to the U.S. tax system."
posted by marycatherine at 3:35 PM on November 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


That Double Irish shit has to go.
posted by rhizome at 4:09 PM on November 12, 2017 [9 favorites]


Former CIA director John Brennan suggests to @jaketapper on @CNNSotu that
the Russians do in fact have compromising information on @realDonaldTrump

So yeah, maybe the Russians have compromising info on him. That's scary.

Scarier thought: Republicans probably still won't care, no matter what it is.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:11 PM on November 12, 2017 [31 favorites]


if so many people have so many trump tapes, real or fake, why haven't any of them been leaked?

Sounds like Fermi's paradox. Some possibilities:
  • The tapes never existed.
  • The tapes deteriorated years ago and can no longer be broadcast.
  • The tapes are not broadcasting their whereabouts because it would ensure their destruction by a predator.
  • The tapes are waiting for us to hit a threshold of social maturity before they are revealed, to ensure that we can handle them.
So basically, I'm banking that after we all collectively abandon Twitter and Facebook, the Greys will land a saucer at the UN and hand us the Pee tape.
posted by condour75 at 4:23 PM on November 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


I know one thing that would be super helpful for my Bipolar symptoms: spending more time in life-or-death scenarios with deadly weapons. Assuming I always have enough lithium before I head out on a mission I can’t see any way this could go horribly wrong. Who-hoo, sign me up!
posted by Biblio at 4:28 PM on November 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


cannon. fodder.

jfc, I can't help but think iran or nk.

when i was young and naive, i thought the idea of american imperialism was a stretch. then i listened to the clash. then i started reading. it was so.

now it's worse than imperialism. it's just continuous destruction, with no end in sight.

independent of party. mostly. the Rs do tend to start shit up.
posted by j_curiouser at 4:46 PM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


Seth Abramson Twitter thread.
May '16, after months of selling a Trump-Kremlin meet to Team Trump, Papadopoulos secretly went to Athens to meet a Putin ally. Putin was then in Athens meeting the same man—the only 48 hours Putin was in the EU during the campaign.
posted by adamvasco at 4:48 PM on November 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


A screaming comes across the timeline.
posted by perspicio at 4:51 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


So now we know where "coffee boy" Papadopoulos was getting his coffee from...
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:51 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


I thought it had been established that Abramson was not a reliable source for either facts or analysis? Not Mensch-level bullshit of course but questionable?
posted by Justinian at 4:53 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Abramson is not Ackerman whose "teased scoop" we are still waiting for...
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:56 PM on November 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I think Abramson threads are basically well-sourced wishful thinking. I stopped following him on twitter because his conclusions were so fanciful (plus his threads tend to take over your timeline).
posted by scarylarry at 4:57 PM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Abramson is not Ackerman whose "teased scoop" we are still waiting for...

More teasing. Noah Shachtman: .@attackerman and @ScribblerSix (author of 'No Easy Day' & 'American Radical') have a holy shit story coming up.
posted by scalefree at 5:08 PM on November 12, 2017


Actual reporting with real sources > Metafilter comments > Seth Abramson > Robert Reich > Louise Mench.

Seth Abramson is fine for pulling together several Russia stories in mainstream sources at once, that's about it. His actual analysis is less informed or grounded in reality than the collective baseline of the people who post here. But still no Louise Mench.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:08 PM on November 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


ackerman's dropped. it's a green berets/navy SEALs story.
posted by halation at 5:08 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Blammo. Ackerman: Green Beret Discovered SEALs’ Illicit Cash. Then He Was Killed.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:08 PM on November 12, 2017 [15 favorites]


The more hype a story gets the more likely we will be very disappointed. I bet it's a good story but nothing earthshaking.
posted by Justinian at 5:09 PM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Yeah that's about what I expected. It's an important story. But it's not a huge one.
posted by Justinian at 5:10 PM on November 12, 2017 [5 favorites]


Oh hey, maybe running infinite undeclared shadow wars in infinite countries isn't a great idea.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:11 PM on November 12, 2017 [12 favorites]


This would be a scandal worthy of 4 years of hearings, if we had a Democratic President and Republican Congress. Be lucky to get a single news cycle out of it under Trump.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:14 PM on November 12, 2017 [29 favorites]


Yeah, that didn't involve "Trump" or "pee tape," so....
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:14 PM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


The story ended at a weird place, I kept scrolling thinking I'd missed the conclusion, but there wasn't really one. I mean, I know the story is ongoing, but I'm not sure what the point was either, given that is an ongoing investigation. If the focus had been the shadow war, or how many people we have, and what the Hell they're doing there, but so much of this story is conjecture and secret sourced, and it's going to cause a horde of media vampires and froggy hate mobs to descend on that poor widow.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:19 PM on November 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


What? Isn’t that what literally everyone thought when the first story came out? This is like every clean cop meets a dirty cop trope. I think this was literally on Better Caul Saul.

Fuck you Ackerman for hyping foreign policy scoops in an age where we have a crazy President who wants to use nukes

Jesus Christ my nervous system is still on high alert
posted by schadenfrau at 5:21 PM on November 12, 2017 [17 favorites]


To avoid edit abuse, let me qualify by saying I believe the story is important, but it seems rushed to press.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:22 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


The hyping and dramatic timing of news stories contributes to the pervasive sense of Fakeness...
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:22 PM on November 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


Well now I wish it had been the NSA story, or something very much like it, for his reputation's sake at least. What a damp squib.
posted by adamgreenfield at 5:24 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


Undeserved hype is still less annoying than "TICK TICK TICK" schtick. Fuck Ben Wittes.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:25 PM on November 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


Ackerman tweeted it was the "most disturbing story" he's reported. Unnecessary hype? Sure, at least for the handful of people who read natsec Twitter on a Sunday. The story is, indeed, disturbing. If you got yourself convinced it was going to take down the President, that's on you.
posted by zachlipton at 5:26 PM on November 12, 2017 [20 favorites]


I read three or four stories with more historical importance every day before breakfast lately.
posted by diogenes at 5:29 PM on November 12, 2017 [13 favorites]


Can I add this to the long list of Reasons Twitter Is Not Worth Keeping Alive: Good Journalism Turns Into Hype and Tease...
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:35 PM on November 12, 2017 [10 favorites]


.@attackerman and @ScribblerSix (author of 'No Easy Day' & 'American Radical') have a holy shit story coming up.

His "holy shit" meter needs to be adjusted for the current environment. Just yesterday a Republican Senate candidate said he dated 16 year old girls, and the President called the leader of a nuclear armed nation short and fat.
posted by diogenes at 5:36 PM on November 12, 2017 [55 favorites]


Is it possible that the problem is not hype but that we’re all so fucking jaded now?
posted by um at 5:37 PM on November 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


Jaded? Are you suggesting that perhaps something has happened to us in the decade since last January?
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:43 PM on November 12, 2017 [56 favorites]


The more hype a story gets the more likely we will be very disappointed. I bet it's a good story but nothing earthshaking.

It's an important & powerful story but it's not geopolitically disruptive.
posted by scalefree at 5:46 PM on November 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


honestly i feel like ackerman has reported on more-disturbing stories

like, this situation is obviously not *good* but it's hardly 'holy shit'
posted by halation at 5:55 PM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


If we lived in a world where things still had consequences, we could look at a fucked up, but still unit level, story like this and ask what it says about the US' presence in West Africa, and if a larger conversation about Congressional oversight of the War on Terror and specifically the mission creep to Africa was really serving American interests or the intent of the AUMF.

We don't live in that world. No matter the question, no matter the national secuirty implications, we know what the answer of the Republican Congress will be, "We're focused on tax cuts". There will be no serious discussion, no serious oversight.

That's not jaded, that's evidence based on over one year of observed track record.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:57 PM on November 12, 2017 [14 favorites]


So we're going to beanplate what's the appropriate use of twitter hype tonight. Fantastic.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:58 PM on November 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


There is no we without you.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 6:16 PM on November 12, 2017 [8 favorites]


There is no we without you.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist

wait, was I supposed to bring the ice cream
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:25 PM on November 12, 2017 [7 favorites]


No, we are all provided for.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 6:28 PM on November 12, 2017 [75 favorites]


Ackerman is a very good reporter, but he's also a bit high on himself, I think.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:50 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


I know it was yesterday morning, but it's in this thread above — a comment by Autumnheart that I both favorited and copied and pasted into my notes for reminding myself. To quote:
To be honest, I’ve been stepping back from...almost all up-to-the-moment media. I don’t use FB as often, I rarely watch actual television, I get most of my news from these threads, and I spend most of my time listening to music and audiobooks, watching movies and reading. I think I’ve spent more time in slowtime this past year than I have in the past two decades.

Sometimes I feel a little out of the loop, but to be honest...not really. Events and rumors move so fast that it’s just as well to get a full download at the end of the day than to keep checking in from hour to hour.
I mostly don't participate in MetaFilter nowadays for various reasons, a big one of which is the sheer enormous gravitational pull of these political threads. MeFites here do a great job of amassing and filtering the up-to-the-second news, both for good and ill, and I keep getting drawn back because of FOMO. Then the GAAAAHHH shivers start up, and I run away again.

I've found an approach this past year similar to Autumnheart's has been really helpful, and I am worse off the more I don't follow it. Especially when Twitter Hype Ooze starts splashing everywhere like ectoplasmic slime in the new Ghostbusters movie that I finally saw this weekend and holy crap Kate McKinnon is a genius and can we elect her president in 2020?!

I love that sentence: "I think I’ve spent more time in slowtime this past year than I have in the past two decades." I would also add going for walks to the slowtime repertoire, as it's the best thing. Besides, if the country literally blows up while you're away from the computer, at least you'll be in the open and see it coming.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:15 PM on November 12, 2017 [19 favorites]


And on that note, I am going for a walk.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:17 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Wow, that Ackerman story reads like the plot of an episode of the tv show Arrow.
posted by Gadgetenvy at 7:18 PM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Intelligence-oriented special forces officers skimming a secret government cash fund and killing another special forces officer from a rival service in an effort to keep their embezzlement under wraps? It sounds Putin-esque and is very concerning indeed.
posted by infinitewindow at 7:46 PM on November 12, 2017 [11 favorites]


I find your lack of pee tape disturbing.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:51 PM on November 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


Politico: Ryan breaks record for shutting down floor debate
posted by Chrysostom at 7:55 PM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


If the umpteenth go-round of pee tape discussion is somehow not a waste of time but the murder of a soldier to cover up the corruption of other soldiers is then I’m not sure if I need to step away from these threads or everyone else does. This is not healthy.
posted by um at 7:55 PM on November 12, 2017 [47 favorites]


Isn't this basically the premise of Lethal Weapon?
posted by ctmf at 7:59 PM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


Favorited, um. I think the clinging to the pee tape is because it might somehow damage Trump's credibility, but the servicemen killing fellow servicemen is ... pretty disturbing.

At what point do we say, "OK, we tried the imperialism project and it doesn't seem to work very well. We go home now!"
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 8:03 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Not a pee tape, but this picture looks like he's wetting himself. NOT what I call a Photo Opportunity.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:36 PM on November 12, 2017 [2 favorites]


The Ackerman story is fucking horrifying.
We live in an era of Constantly Fucking Horrifying, so yeah, by comparison it's not gonna make a huge splash. Personally, I refuse to let the Constantly Fucking Horrifying of 2017 reset my bar for fucking horrifying.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:04 PM on November 12, 2017 [23 favorites]


eerily reminiscent of the out-of-bounds DOD operators in Sicario. i personally did not find that element of the film much of a stretch.
posted by j_curiouser at 9:17 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


The Intercept published a report earlier this year about a myriad of other crimes committed by members of SEAL Team 6.
posted by PenDevil at 9:28 PM on November 12, 2017 [3 favorites]


Trump Installs Tax-Dodging Expert as the Head of the IRS. Because of course.
posted by scalefree at 9:34 PM on November 12, 2017 [15 favorites]


Remember how I posted upthread about Doug Mills, NYT photographer, tweeting a black frame in protest of media restrictions covering Trump in Vietnam?

His latest work of art, showing Trump participating in a group handshake at the opening ceremony of the AESAN Summit, might just explain why photographers had been banned before. Let the caption contest begin.
posted by zachlipton at 9:48 PM on November 12, 2017 [6 favorites]


Less comically, this happened when the press tried to ask Trump whether he discussed human rights with Duterte (you know, the guy sanctioning extrajudicial murders) (quote assembled from two pool reports):
Pool tried again to elicit answer on whether Trump had raised human rights with Duterte, but did not get a response.
"Whoa, whoa," Duterte said. "This not a press statement. This is the bilateral meeting."
Duterte: "We will be discussing matters that are of interest to both the Philippines and...with you around, guys, you are the spies."
"Hah, hah, hah," Trump said laughing.
"You are," Duterte repeated.
This is Trump laughing as Duterte shuts down questions about human rights and calls the press spies.
posted by zachlipton at 9:59 PM on November 12, 2017 [87 favorites]


Not a pee tape, but this picture looks like he's wetting himself.

There aren't any pictures of trump where he doesn't look like he's soiling himself in some way. He always looks like he's wetting/pooping/etc. himself. It's kind of his jam.
posted by mrgoat at 10:02 PM on November 12, 2017 [4 favorites]


His existence soils all humanity. He’s the Contaminant-in-Chief.
posted by um at 10:06 PM on November 12, 2017 [23 favorites]


There aren't any pictures of trump where he doesn't look like he's soiling himself in some way.
This is going up there with the way my friend pointed out how Donald Jr. looks like a witch put a curse on him that prevented his tongue from ever touching any part of the inside of his mouth
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:24 PM on November 12, 2017 [28 favorites]


John Oliver did an excellent Trump wrap-up for his final episode of the season. There's nothing new exactly, but he nicely lays out the broader themes of everything Trump does: the trolling, the whataboutism, the incompetence. It's important, yet severely depressing, to step back from the firehose for a moment and take in the whole.
posted by zachlipton at 11:39 PM on November 12, 2017 [16 favorites]


Zionists of America invited, like, a BUNCH Of alt-right Nazis to their gala, including Steve Bannon.

Just wanted everyone to know, just in case you were, I don't know, making the mistake of having a good day or anything.
posted by Yowser at 11:46 PM on November 12, 2017 [1 favorite]


There is no we without you.

TYL: clusivity
posted by The Tensor at 12:35 AM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


The Lineman Got $63 an Hour. The Utility Was Billed $319 an Hour.
More on Whitefish from NYTimes. Another of those things that would have been a huge scandal in normal times.
posted by mumimor at 1:05 AM on November 13, 2017 [52 favorites]


Oh, and no one has pointed out in these threads that there is now an official victims of communism day?

That was what, five days ago?

I think we'r a bubble here
posted by Yowser at 1:25 AM on November 13, 2017


WhiteWaterfishgate?
posted by Yowser at 1:25 AM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


"... you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me, it would have been so easy, and it's not - as important as these lives are - nuclear is so powerful. My uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, and that was 35 years ago, he would explain the power of what's going to happen and he was right. Who would have thought? But now when you look at what's going on with the four prisoners - now it used to be three, now it's four - but when it was three, and even now, I would have said: it's all in the messenger. Fellas, and it is fellas, because, you know, they don't, they haven't figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it's it's going to take them about another 150 years. But the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators. So, and they, they just killed, they just killed us."

An actual transcript of a speech given by the President.
posted by adept256 at 2:04 AM on November 13, 2017 [53 favorites]


His "holy shit" meter needs to be adjusted for the current environment. Just yesterday a Republican Senate candidate said he dated 16 year old girls, and the President called the leader of a nuclear armed nation short and fat.

Yeah, but the arguably insane and short-fused leader of the nuclear armed nation called him old first...
posted by Samizdata at 2:09 AM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Actually, he called him an "old lunatic" but he only was offended by the "old" part...
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:11 AM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


An actual transcript of a speech given by the President.

That's a very old speech, about 300 years ago in Trump time (first mention of it I could find was from July 2015).

Here's some video of it anyway.
posted by walrus at 2:18 AM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


WhiteWaterFishGateContraAhziPiss
posted by j_curiouser at 2:20 AM on November 13, 2017


Is trump capable of reading his prepared speeches or does he always go off on his own thing?

You are going to tell me that The Master of The Deal isn't so smart he can't give brilliant, informative and inspiring speeches off the cuff?

Really?

And you expect me to believe that?
posted by Samizdata at 2:44 AM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


sio42: That's not a falsifiable question, so we'll never know.
posted by Rykey at 2:45 AM on November 13, 2017


This turkey, is the best turkey. I only hire the best turkeys, like Flynn, who I don't even know, he was trying to kidnap a turkey. Fuck it, pardons for everyone.

FOR EVERYONE! And then he will eat the turkey.
posted by adept256 at 2:59 AM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


I bet when he pardons the turkey he releases it from a helicopter.
posted by Daily Alice at 3:26 AM on November 13, 2017 [58 favorites]


But now when you look at what's going on with the four prisoners - now it used to be three, now it's four - but when it was three, and even now, I would have said: it's all in the messenger.

How is this not timecube level insanity? You shall not Parse!

I've seen some of you remark that 'dotard' is a word unfamiliar to you. That's fine, it's alright, I just accept that americans have a different version of english, But this? Dr Who could get away with it, because she can travel through time. I don't think she'd abuse the language like this though. There is no excuse.
posted by adept256 at 3:29 AM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


His latest work of art, showing Trump participating in a group handshake at the opening ceremony of the AESAN Summit, might just explain why photographers had been banned before. Let the caption contest begin.

JFC, Turnbull standing there with a massive shit eating grin on his face like the git he is as he shakes hands with a fascist.
posted by Talez at 3:40 AM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


> I bet when he pardons the turkey he releases it from a helicopter.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 3:43 AM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


MeFites here do a great job of amassing and filtering the up-to-the-second news, both for good and ill, and I keep getting drawn back because of FOMO

I am not capable of stepping back from the firehouse right now, but for those who are and who want to, I would recommend The Weekly Sift.

As the name implies, Doug Muder sifts through the news and summarizes the important developments once a week. You won't get all the details, but you would still be informed in a big picture way.

Muder is a mathematician by training and is active in the Unitarian church. I think maybe rhat's why he is capable of both analysis and synthesis. He breaks stories down and shows how the pieces fit into a larger whole. Also he writes well and has a sense of humor. So I think you could read no news at all besides his three blog posts a week (one summary and two essays which get into context) and still be better informed than most of the general public.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:59 AM on November 13, 2017 [40 favorites]


You shall not Parse!

*golf clap*
posted by petebest at 5:09 AM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


It seems John Barron has another client.

@maxwelltani (Business Insider)
Interesting how Joe Biden sounds a lot like this "person close to the former VP" who thinks he can beat Trump
Joe this morning on the Today show - "I'm not closing the door... I'm a great respecter of fate. Who knows what the situation will be a year and a half from now?"

Politico: 11/10/17 - "'He’s a great respecter of fate,' said one person close to the former vice president. 'At some point, it may turn into fate and planning.'"
posted by chris24 at 5:12 AM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Again, I say: Love you, Joe. Sit the fuck down.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:17 AM on November 13, 2017 [73 favorites]


That's Trump's dancing face

just a steel town girl on a saturday night
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:28 AM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


> they haven't figured that the women are smarter right now than the men

I had to double-check that on Snopes because I had a bit of a hard time believing Trump would credit women as being smarter than men, in any context. I assume it was a rhetorical accident he suffered while stumbling through that speech.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:14 AM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


I think what he's saying is: it has not yet been determined that women aren't smarter than men, but in 150 years or so that will finally be determined. That is, the elitist "experts" are far behind the curve on what common sense already tells us (that women aren't smarter than men).

I puzzled over that same thing when I first watched the video, and that's the best I can figure out. So no credit to women's intelligence from Trump, shockingly.
posted by Rykey at 6:24 AM on November 13, 2017


Fellas, and it is fellas, because, you know, they don't, they haven't figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it's it's going to take them about another 150 years.

...maybe trump is actually a procedurally generated construct? it's like he knew he was generally supposed to remain gender-neutral when addressing audiences and accidentally saying 'fellas' tripped the 'fob women off with an intended-to-be-somehow-vaguely-empowering sop' subroutine in a circumstance where it wasn't actually called for, and that process had to complete before he could resume.
posted by halation at 6:36 AM on November 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


He’s talking about gender inequality in Iran (it's always fellas he would be negotiating with), and then he blindly reminds everyone how we uncritically just accept patriarchy here, too, with the women are more intelligent comment, much as some men will joke that it’s the wife who really calls the shots at home (“lemme see what the boss says”). Just another day in Pottersville.
posted by notyou at 6:58 AM on November 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


Even if a constitutional convention was called, there aren't enough states that are able to amend things one way or another. If the right-wing states did call one then the leftist states should just troll them by reintroducing the Equal Rights Amendment.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:09 AM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


"The Shady Bunch" a Roy Zimmerman song parody
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:10 AM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


BREAKING: Carter Page dresses as a turkey in hopes of a presidential pardon. [COULD BE REAL]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:11 AM on November 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


It's fairly common for misogynists to state out loud (without believing) a view that women are smarter/better than men in every way. It's a notion that can be used paradoxically to ignore what actual woman are saying and doing, and to pretend that patriarchy is, like, a strange combination of nonexistent ("We all know who really has the upper hand!") and unavoidable ("The world would be better if ladies ran it, amirite men? Ha ha ha ha it'll never happen")
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:13 AM on November 13, 2017 [68 favorites]


I had a bit of a hard time believing Trump would credit women as being smarter than men

He had a woman manage the construction of trump tower, apparently on the theory that a woman would have had to work harder to get where she was, so he could expect exceptionally hard work from her. And I guess it panned out that way. (This was reported in the pre-election episode of Frontline where they do bios of both candidates.)

He might have lost this bit of insight during the ensuing decades of cognitive decline.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:16 AM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


There are hard-right activists convinced that they can and will control the floor at a hypothetical ConCon, limiting the amendment process to those of their choosing (term limits and Balanced Budget and maybe throw in some religious sops while we're here) and shutting down everything else.

There are lots of political scholars staring at them and silently mouthing Are you out of your goddamned minds? It doesn't work like that.

The dangerous part is that it's hard to say who is correct. I mean, by the letter of the law the scholars are but this is not a tested mechanism and Repubs have a very-well-documented fetish for ignoring legal restrictions when it's convenient to do so. This is not something you allow to be called up unless you're 130% sure you can put it down.

Thankfully, _for now_ it remains a Master Shake fever dream.
posted by delfin at 7:18 AM on November 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


TFW you find the new politics thread and there's already over 500 comments in it [sob].
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:21 AM on November 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


Additional thought: A narcissist like Trump believes he's literally the most intelligent person in the world (and has said so aloud in many ways). But if you asked him whether women are more intelligent than men, including himself, he could well say yes, and mean it. In Trump's mindset, that's not a contradiction, and I leave it to the reader to work out the unfortunate disturbing reason why.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:21 AM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Guys! Guys! Remember that server from the Georgia election that was mysteriously wiped & we all suspected foul play at work? Kennesaw State Embroiled in Controversy over Security of Election Data. I have two pieces of really good news. First, it turns out it wasn't nefariously done after all.
Tammy DeMel, assistant vice president of communications at KSU, provided a statement that downplayed the significance of the fact that technicians at KSU wiped the election server clean. Rather, the statement said, the server had been “repurposed” for “alternative uses.”
So that's quite a relief, no mysterious forces were trying to hide anything nefarious at all. And there's more good news too!
“The concern that the data was lost is unfounded,” the report states. “Current indication is that the FBI retained an image of the data on those servers as part of their investigation and that it will be available for use in the ongoing litigation.”
Hooray!
posted by scalefree at 7:35 AM on November 13, 2017 [36 favorites]


> Current indication is that the FBI retained an image of the data

So, they don't know for sure? Let me check, do I have a backup - where did I put it - is it under that old pizza box ...? Sounds like the backup disk might soon be "repurposed" for an "alternative use"? Maybe some ballistic testing?

These people can't even be arsed to be subtle about their criminality - it's all blatant now.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:42 AM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


I don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but I love the CraigyFerg callback in the post title. Man, do I miss his Late, Late Show.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 8:03 AM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


How about a cat tax for the politics threads, every fifth horrible revelation gets kitten pictures?

"This cat looks like it's being interviewed by the NYT about Trump's broken promise to bring bodega cat jobs to its town."
posted by gwint at 8:08 AM on November 13, 2017 [40 favorites]


Medium: Four Progressive Leaders Offer Four Observations from Election Night 2017 by Heather McGhee, Demos Action; Rashad Robinson, Color of Change PAC; Ai-jen Poo, Caring Across Generations Action Fund, and Anna Galland, MoveOn.org
1. The Democratic base is fired up.
...
2. An inclusive populism wins — and should be even stronger.
...
3. Contested elections — including primaries — are good for the party.
...
4. The Southern Strategy Defines — and Fails — the Republican Party.
...
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:08 AM on November 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


Y'know I don't actually disagree with that. My whole thing is-- if your guy loses the primary, you throw it all behind the candidate anyway.

(I really want to tell you all about my experience this year, because it was wild and amazing and both the hardest and the best thing I ever did, but idk if I have the bandwidth at the moment.)
posted by dogheart at 8:21 AM on November 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


New Yorker: One Year After Trump’s Election, Masha Gessen Revisits Her Essay “Autocracy: Rules for Survival” (previously) While her rules 1 to 4 - "Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.", "Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.", "Institutions will not save you.", "Be outraged." - have by and large proved prescient advice, she particularly wants to re-examine her last two:
Rule No. 5: Don’t make compromises. [...] Still, this is the most problematic of my rules, because it calls forth the strongest counter-argument. Democracy is based on compromise. A commitment to purity can ultimately serve only to widen the divide between those who elected Trump and those who could not imagine his Presidency. A commitment to purity, in fact, risks becoming a commitment to refusing to imagine his Presidency, even a year after the election. A commitment to purity is antithetical to political engagement. Yet political engagement risks or even demands a measure of normalization.

The tension is irresolvable. This rule should be amended to read: Pay attention to the ways in which the Trump Presidency breaks the moral compass.

Rule No. 6: Remember the future. [...] I wrote that the failure to imagine the future—to offer a vision in opposition to Trump’s appeal to an imaginary past—had cost the Democrats the election. [...] And yet, a year after Trump’s election, the states of Virginia and New Jersey rejected Trumpian gubernatorial candidates, electing Democrats. [...] Several victories, however, suggest that the energy of the resistance has fuelled sustained political work. To take us into the future, this energy has to transcend local and state-level races and “provincial time.” If we are lucky, that process begins today.
Emphases in the original.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:27 AM on November 13, 2017 [40 favorites]


Institutions will not save you

She actually says...

"Some institutions have indeed saved us, some of the time. The courts have stepped in to stop Trump’s anti-Muslim travel ban and part of his ban on transgender people in the Military. But..."

Since this line keeps getting quoted, I think it is important to acknowledge that mixed record, and I am glad Gessen does that.

I'm starting to think the most we can expect of our institutions is to slow the collapse of democracy sufficiently to allow us time rebuild and reinforce the underlying supports. Like institutions are buttresses of democracy, but they won't save it if the foundation is being undermined. Only civic engagement on a mass scale can provide that foundational support. Without the buttresses democracy might fall before we can shore up the foundations, so we need them to be strong, but they are not enough by themselves.

Also every time that line is quoted I want to quote this bit from Timothy Snyder's On Tyranny again:
Chapter 2. Defend Institutions.
It is institutions that help us to preserve democracy. They need our help as well. Do not speak of "our instiutions" unless you make them yours by acting on their behalf. Institutions do not protect themselves. They fall one after the other unless each is defended from the beginning. So choose an institution you care about -- a court, a newspaper, a law, a labor union -- and take its side.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:48 AM on November 13, 2017 [70 favorites]


Since this line keeps getting quoted, I think it is important to acknowledge that mixed record, and I am glad Gessen does that.

"By and large" was the qualification I settled on, with Rule 2 and 3 in mind. In her reassessment of the latter, after she cites where the press and the courts have successfully resisted Trump's policies, she goes on to remind us, "But Trump is waging a constant attack on the judiciary, both on Twitter and in the Senate, which is holding one judicial confirmation hearing after another—most of them obscured by louder and faster news." More disturbingly, she adds, "But perhaps the scariest institutional development is one I didn’t foresee: the appearance of the generals in the White House. [...] Both generals have since betrayed our hopes by lying for the President and, in Kelly’s case, by adopting the rhetorical logic of a military coup. In fairness, though, alarms should have gone off earlier, when so many people seemed eager to see generals exercise control over an elected President."

Perhaps she should have revised her rule to "Institutions will not save you without your help."
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:04 AM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


Unbelievable (or it would be, if we weren't in the stupidest timeline):

NYT: Trump Judicial Pick Did Not Disclose He Is Married to a White House Lawyer

And not just any lawyer. His wife is chief of staff to Don McGahn, who oversees judicial appointments .
posted by marshmallow peep at 9:22 AM on November 13, 2017 [117 favorites]


His wife is chief of staff to Don McGahn, who oversees judicial appointments.
Can a federal judge be impeached before they're sworn in? Asking for a friend.
posted by baltimoretim at 9:24 AM on November 13, 2017 [45 favorites]


NYT: Trump Judicial Pick Did Not Disclose He Is Married to a White House Lawyer

And not just any lawyer. His wife is chief of staff to Don McGahn, who oversees judicial appointments .

Flames, flames, on the side of my face, breathing-breathl- heaving breaths.gif
posted by Sophie1 at 9:28 AM on November 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


NYT: McConnell Calls for Roy Moore to Drop Out of Senate Race
posted by monospace at 9:29 AM on November 13, 2017 [18 favorites]


CNN: McConnell on Moore: 'I believe the women,' Moore should go.

I'm just gonna assume McConnell caught wind of my scathing friends-locked "wtf Republicans" Facebook post from like an hour ago and realized shit was going too far even for him.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:30 AM on November 13, 2017 [40 favorites]


This is being discussed in detail in the dedicated Moore scandal thread but suffice it to say that McConnell acts exclusively from his own interests, not from morality. If he can get a substitute Republican to win easily in AL and not be a shit-flinging Bible-banging spectacle once elected, that is his best-case scenario.
posted by delfin at 9:34 AM on November 13, 2017 [30 favorites]


4. The Southern Strategy Defines — and Fails — the Republican Party.

lolwut. You don't get a lock on 30-something state legislatures, both houses, and the presidency, and call it failing.

Virginia was a massive win for the Democrats, 7 points or something equally ridiculous on the at-large popular vote, but they couldn't even get a house of delegates majority. 2010 has paid dividends repeatedly and it may not be fixable under the current system. Strategic application of the Southern Strategy has been the Republican party's biggest triumph.
posted by Talez at 9:45 AM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


NYT: Trump Judicial Pick Did Not Disclose He Is Married to a White House Lawyer

Oh good, that's perfect timing to update the call-in script to demand our senators oppose Brett Talley (the senate switchboard is 202-224-3121). I might fax them as well.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:47 AM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


roy moore attempts to save his failing senate campaign … by throwing the senate majority leader under the bus?
The person who should step aside is @SenateMajLdr Mitch McConnell. He has failed conservatives and must be replaced. #DrainTheSwamp
this is the kind of out of the box thinking the republican party needs right now
posted by murphy slaw at 9:56 AM on November 13, 2017 [82 favorites]


David Nakamura, WaPo: News photographer who protested White House restrictions produces revealing shot of Trump a day later, specifically, this revealing shot.

See also: New York Times photographer tweets ‘photo’ of black box to protest White House coverage blackout, referring to this black box.

The takeaway point here is that photographers can pick and choose which photos to share.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:00 AM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


WaPo: The Daily 202: Six ways Trump’s Putin comments on Asia trip erode U.S. credibility

Paraphrasing. Everyone looks worse, is less able to do their jobs well, from the President on down.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:11 AM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Facebook may be losing the fight against fake news
posted by Artw at 10:14 AM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Late to the party, but: On Thursday, Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-S.C.) followed with his own unusually frank comment:
"Lindsey Graham says 'the financial contributions will stop' if tax reform fails."
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:58 PM on November 10 [20 favorites +] [!]

I seem to recall that Roberts said the criterion for money being not speech, but corruption was an explicit quid pro quo.

Ahem.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:20 AM on November 13, 2017 [56 favorites]


I think we're all losing the fight against fake news
posted by Myeral at 10:28 AM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Facebook is losing the fight against fake news like Colonel Sanders lost the fight against chicken.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:29 AM on November 13, 2017 [60 favorites]


I seem to recall that Roberts said the criterion for money being not speech, but corruption was an explicit quid pro quo.

INQPQIYAR
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:29 AM on November 13, 2017 [9 favorites]


Artw: Facebook may be losing the fight against fake news

Or, Facebook may be profiting from fake news and wants to keep profiting, instead of coming clean about how much money they're making by selling out their country for pocket change (in terms of big-tech levels of funding).
posted by filthy light thief at 10:40 AM on November 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


The money/politics/spending-money-as-free-speech problem is hard. Can we get some tech bros excited about disrupting that instead of fair treatment of workers?
posted by ctmf at 10:52 AM on November 13, 2017


(Except the answer to "could they make it any worse?" is probably yes.)
posted by ctmf at 10:53 AM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


In other Smart Branding news, the first Anti-Trump Hotel is opening in DC. Regrettably, I predict every person who stays there will be doxxed by the NotZs and AllWrongs.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:54 AM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


NYT: Trump Judicial Pick Did Not Disclose He Is Married to a White House Lawyer

To make it abundantly clear: This judicial pick is Brett Talley. You may remember Brett from such articles as "GOP Nominates Judge with Absolutely No Trial Experience to Lifetime Federal Appeals Appointment". It's the same guy.

Can someone remind me where the signup sheet is for the revolution?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 10:55 AM on November 13, 2017 [46 favorites]


scalefree: "Guys! Guys! Remember that server from the Georgia election that was mysteriously wiped & we all suspected foul play at work? Kennesaw State Embroiled in Controversy over Security of Election Data. "

On a related not, looks like there is an effort to recall GA SOS Brian Kemp. Georgia Mefites should check this out.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:56 AM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


Facebook may be losing the fight against fake news

They're not even fighting. Disseminating stories for money is their entire business model. And they can keep on doing that whether we continue live in a democracy or not.
posted by monospace at 11:10 AM on November 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


remember when we used to envy the republicans for their superior message discipline?

good times, good times
posted by murphy slaw at 11:12 AM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Facebook may be losing the fight against fake news

monospace: They're not even fighting. Disseminating stories for money is their entire business model. And they can keep on doing that whether we continue live in a democracy or not.

Well, depends on how far you get from a democracy. Freedom to criticize the ruling government isn't available everywhere, FWIW.

Back in June, Germany made it abundantly clear that hate speech on Facebook is serious, and started forcing Facebook to remove hate speech or pay over $50 million (Gizmodo).
posted by filthy light thief at 11:14 AM on November 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”
Rod Rosenstein: We should weigh “law enforcement equities” against security.

Brb buying copies of Applied Cryptography and burying them like a crypto-squirrel getting ready for the totalitarian winter.
posted by dis_integration at 6:20 AM on November 12 [30 favorites +] [!]

So is PGP still the go-to freeware?
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:15 AM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Maybe we should try to get encryption re-classified as a munition, so that the NRA will qrsraq bhe tbq-tvira evtug gb orne nezf.
posted by hades at 10:25 AM on November 12 [7 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

Can't let this pass. I suspect hades was joking, but if we make the argument that the apocryphal need to use small arms to rebel against the biggest fucking military machine in history is worthless without the ability to communicate securely with other citizens, we might get the gun nuts to join in resisting this move by the intelligence community and its hangers-on. I know the NRA leadership would never buy it, because their only aim is increasing gun sales, but they've conveniently preconditioned their base to buy it and set up the network to make communicating with it easy.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:25 AM on November 13, 2017


The Menendez jury appears to be hopelessly deadlocked. Sounds like a mistrial is imminent.

Menendez is still scum and should be primaried out.
posted by Justinian at 11:30 AM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


Any New Jersey peeps who can fill us in on some possible challengers? All I know about new Jersey is what I remember from being a kid in Connecticut. That is to say: traction park!
posted by Justinian at 11:32 AM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


So is PGP still the go-to freeware?

https://flowcrypt.com/ is well worth looking at for gmail users, it integrates fairly seamlessly (important for porpoises of ubiquity*) and is open source. (caveat: I haven't really dug into it to any great degree)

* And until encryption is something everyone uses by default it's always going to be vulnerable to becoming outlawed and having its users become persons of interest.
posted by Buntix at 11:36 AM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


For some reason the jury wasn't sequestered, so all the comments from the dismissed juror(s) made it back to them. But yeah, Democrats definitely need someone else, untainted by strong ties to the finance industry, to step in and make a progressive stand there.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:36 AM on November 13, 2017


For some reason the jury wasn't sequestered, so all the comments from the dismissed juror(s) made it back to them.

what the hell
posted by halation at 11:38 AM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


ABC 33/40 live stream of the Allred presser. Just started.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:42 AM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


For some reason the jury wasn't sequestered, so all the comments from the dismissed juror(s) made it back to them.

Looks like a mistrial to me. Good, kick it down the road a few months so Christie can't appoint himself Senator or something.
posted by dis_integration at 11:44 AM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Sequestering juries is a very rare and extreme step. It's difficult, expensive, and disruptive.
posted by Justinian at 11:44 AM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


In "not as terrible as perhaps expected" news, St. Cloud, Minnesota voted down a resolution to put a halt on refugee resettlement by six to one.

Those of you on the coasts may not be aware that Minnesota has comparatively large Somali (and Hmong) communities because of resettlement efforts here. Last year, Ilhan Omar became the first Somali-American elected to the House of Representatives. (One effect of Somali community growth here is that non-Muslim Minnesotans are much more likely to actually know Muslims than most non-Muslim Americans are, which means that the War on Terror can feel very different if you're a non-Muslim Minnesotan than it would if you lived elsewhere, and by "different" I mean "even more infuriating and full of bullshit".)

Anyway! St. Cloud, as someone quoted in the article points out, does not exactly have the world's greatest rep, racism-wise. So this is particularly exciting. Although also a bit overdue, since there has been some Somali immigration to Minnesota since the early eighties and quite a lot since the early nineties, so it's not exactly as though Somali Minnesotans are a new thing.

Minnesota has so much potential! We don't always live up to it, but sometimes we do.
posted by Frowner at 11:44 AM on November 13, 2017 [64 favorites]


Rhaomi: "ABC 33/40 live stream of the Allred presser. Just started."

I am not a mod, but we should probably keep Moore stuff in the Moore thread.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:56 AM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Politico: Ryan breaks record for shutting down floor debate
posted by Chrysostom at 7:55 PM on November 12 [3 favorites +] [!]

When is a "deliberative body" not a deliberative body?
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:56 AM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


This is the Age of Trump so we're getting used to weird. But I bet none of you though it could get this weird this fast. Before He Was Nominated For Federal Court, Donald Trump’s Controversial Judicial Nominee, Brett J. Talley, Hunted Ghosts.
posted by scalefree at 12:04 PM on November 13, 2017 [48 favorites]


“Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No job is too big. No fee is too big.”
posted by Barack Spinoza at 12:06 PM on November 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


I know it can be hard to tell from pictures, but it really looks like trump has put on about 20 pounds in the last few months. Like, 10 on this Asia trip alone.

Tom Petty - pretty lean looking, probably kept in shape to tour, dead by heart attack before 70. Trump? Pillsbury doughboy looks at him and says, at least I ain't in that bad shape, still torments our side of the big grass lawn. The difference is fucking cigarettes.
posted by thelonius at 12:12 PM on November 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


3. Contested elections — including primaries — are good for the party.

Democratic Party finally sold on "this democracy thing"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:17 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Gotta click out now, but one thought has been gnawing at my insides. Mueller is probably a stand-up guy, but from my perspective the scale and scope of the corruption extends to most of the GOP and much of the bureacracy. I fear that those who care about the country, including Mueller, will survey the vast extent of it all and, trying to imagine the devastation prosecuting its full range of malfeasants would entail, decide to go after only the B and C participants (e.g., Papadopouluses and Flynns), letting the A level (e.g., Trumps, Pences, and Ryans) quietly resign, and never revealing the true nature of it all.

That would not allow us to undo the damage already done. Gorsuch and other rightwing hacks would stay on the bench, the GOP would stay in control of both Houses and of the White House, and our debasement would proceed apace, but with a more genteel face. I hope I'm wrong.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:30 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


Gorsuch and other rightwing hacks would stay on the bench

Gorsuch and the others are staying on the bench no matter what happens.
posted by Justinian at 12:31 PM on November 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


> Gorsuch and the others are staying on the bench no matter what happens.

Giant asteroid, I'm looking at you here...
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:38 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


Before He Was Nominated For Federal Court, Donald Trump’s Controversial Judicial Nominee, Brett J. Talley, Hunted Ghosts.

Looks like he's also a small-press paranormal/horror author, so I'm willing to bet that Chuck Tingle will introduce him as the main character in his latest tingler appearing in 5...4...3...2...1...now?
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:40 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]



3. Contested elections — including primaries — are good for the party.

Democratic Party finally sold on "this democracy thing"

They've been with it since 2008, at least?
posted by asteria at 12:41 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


> Gorsuch and the others are staying on the bench no matter what happens.

>> Giant asteroid, I'm looking at you here...

Hell, I'd settle for a giant hemorrhoid at this point.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:41 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Looks like he's also a small-press paranormal/horror author

Oh, gods, really? I can't be more than one or two Facebook friends away from him. That's awful.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:43 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Oh, gods, really? I can't be more than one or two Facebook friends away from him. That's awful.

"Six degrees of Judicial Fakin'."
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:44 PM on November 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


Strange Interlude: Looks like he's also a small-press paranormal/horror author, so I'm willing to bet that Chuck Tingle will introduce him as the main character in his latest tingler appearing in 5...4...3...2...1...now?

Re-Enacting The Ghostbusters Blowjob Scene While Evading Every Single Question At My Congressional Hearing
posted by InTheYear2017 at 12:46 PM on November 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


I know it can be hard to tell from pictures, but it really looks like trump has put on about 20 pounds in the last few months. Like, 10 on this Asia trip alone.

We face so many problems with Trump. His weight and appearance are really, truly the least of them. Making fun of him for being fat hurts other fat people, not Trump.
posted by Emmy Rae at 12:57 PM on November 13, 2017 [30 favorites]


thelonius: The difference is fucking cigarettes.

See what happens when you cut sex ed from schools?
posted by hanov3r at 12:57 PM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


This is the Age of Trump so we're getting used to weird. But I bet none of you though it could get this weird this fast. Before He Was Nominated For Federal Court, Donald Trump’s Controversial Judicial Nominee, Brett J. Talley, Hunted Ghosts.

Finally! a relevant occasion on which to post this riveting link.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:03 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Looks like he's also a small-press paranormal/horror author

Oh god. I'm gonna be a panelist at Orycon in Portland this weekend. Now I'm gonna be side-eyeing all the other authors. I won't know who's there to offer good writing advice and who's really just their to boost their resume for some cabinet undersecretary appointment.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:09 PM on November 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


See what happens when you cut sex ed from schools?

The tobacco plants start to experiment figuring out how things work with their carpels and stamens because nobody will tell them anything and all of a sudden you have an epidemic of teenage tobacco plants becoming single mothers.
posted by Talez at 1:10 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


donald trump is not fat

he's just retaining ichor
posted by murphy slaw at 1:11 PM on November 13, 2017 [29 favorites]


Facebook may be losing the fight against fake news

Present tense is so 2016.
posted by petebest at 1:12 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


When is the Hope Hicks meeting w Mueller again?
posted by yoga at 1:13 PM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


he's just retaining ichor

Ichor? More like bile.
posted by Talez at 1:14 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


"Ichor" isn't pronounced like "eye-core." It actually rhymes with "liquor." Not many people know that.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:18 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


my biggest pet peeve is every day having to hear so many people mispronouncing ichor
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:21 PM on November 13, 2017 [37 favorites]


"Ichor" isn't pronounced like "eye-core." It actually rhymes with "liquor." Not many people know that.

I knew that!

That fact that I’ve seemingly been pronouncing “dotard” wrongly all my life still bothers me, though.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 1:22 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


It's really "Frankenstein's ichor".
posted by hanov3r at 1:23 PM on November 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


"Ichor" isn't pronounced like "eye-core."

It's pronounced "Fronk-in-shteen".
posted by Quindar Beep at 1:24 PM on November 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


Sadly long term exposure to Lovecraftian function means I know exactly what to expect from a book with that cover, title and description in terms of trope heavy nonsense.
posted by Artw at 1:25 PM on November 13, 2017


(It may be more racist than average though)
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


(noting that average lovecraftian fiction is pretty racist!)
posted by murphy slaw at 1:27 PM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Incidentally, Mispronouncing Ichor is going to be the title of the next Noah Baumbach film starring Greta Gerwig as a Proust-quoting rollercoaster enthusiast who teaches a sad, middle-aged speech therapist (played by Ben Stiller) how to just relax and have fun.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:30 PM on November 13, 2017 [21 favorites]


requesting that the president-elect tell Australia to appoint Julian Assange ambassador to the United States

holy shit julian assange is even more deluded than my previous gigantic estimation
posted by murphy slaw at 1:30 PM on November 13, 2017 [36 favorites]


Average Lovecraftian Fiction is racist enough that it's in line for Trump's Secretary of Commerce.
posted by Quindar Beep at 1:31 PM on November 13, 2017 [18 favorites]


And today Apple introduced its newest product, the iChor, promoting it as a device for "The Internet of Stranger Things".
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:37 PM on November 13, 2017 [39 favorites]


That’s not a little scoop. It’s fucking collusion.
posted by zachlipton at 1:40 PM on November 13, 2017 [43 favorites]


It would be super interesting to take a look at the raw emails from the Ioffe story. I know The Atlantic has tech experts who already know these things but the main Wikileaks domain doesn't have any of the normal email authentication methods, making forgery much easier.
posted by hanov3r at 1:40 PM on November 13, 2017


And today Apple introduced its newest product, the iChor, promoting it as a device for "The Internet of Stranger Things".

As with all Apple devices, the screen rotation feature allows one to use it even when Upside Down.

Still need a dongle for your headphones though.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:44 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


My, my.

on the same day that Trump Jr. received the first message from Wikileaks, he emailed other senior officials with the Trump campaign, including Steve Bannon, Kellyanne Conway, Brad Parscale, and Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner, telling them Wikileaks had made contact. Kushner then forwarded the email to campaign communications staffer Hope Hicks.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:44 PM on November 13, 2017 [76 favorites]


From the Ioffe story [Twitter link}:
WikiLeaks didn't write again until Election Day, November 8, 2016. "Hi Don if your father 'loses' we think it is much more interesting if he DOES NOT conceed [sic] and spends time CHALLENGING the media and other types of rigging that occurred—as he has implied that he might do," WikiLeaks wrote at 6:35pm, when the idea that Clinton would win was still the prevailing conventional wisdom.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:45 PM on November 13, 2017 [49 favorites]


Also from the article:
Just before the stroke of midnight on September 20, 2016, at the height of last year’s presidential election, the Wikileaks Twitter account sent a private direct message to Donald Trump Jr., the Republican nominee’s oldest son and campaign surrogate. “A PAC run anti-Trump site putintrump.org is about to launch,” Wikileaks wrote. “The PAC is a recycled pro-Iraq war PAC. We have guessed the password. It is ‘putintrump.’ See ‘About’ for who is behind it. Any comments?” (The site, which has since become a joint project with Mother Jones, was founded by Rob Glaser, a tech entrepreneur, and was funded by Progress for USA Political Action Committee.)

The next morning, about 12 hours later, Trump Jr. responded to Wikileaks. “Off the record I don’t know who that is, but I’ll ask around,” he wrote on September 21, 2016. “Thanks.”
First, Rob Glaser is an idiot. Second, guessing the password is a felony. Using the password is illegal. Does Don Jr's participation in these messages constitute conspiracy to violate the CFAA (or actual violations)?

Lock him up (after appropriate due process because we are not monsters).
posted by zachlipton at 1:45 PM on November 13, 2017 [28 favorites]


Mod note: Remember the old saying, folks: fewer jokes about ichor keeps the thread loading quicker.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:47 PM on November 13, 2017 [125 favorites]


The difference is fucking cigarettes.

That would be a distinctly off-label use for that product.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:47 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


we think it is much more interesting if he DOES NOT conceed [sic]

USE! *gasp*
A SPELLCHECK!!

*sobs*
posted by petebest at 1:53 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


WikiLeaks doesn't vet data, silly
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:54 PM on November 13, 2017 [22 favorites]


Trump Jr. did not respond to this message, but two days later, on October 14, 2016, he tweeted out the link Wikileaks had provided him.

That's kinda colludy.
posted by diogenes at 1:59 PM on November 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


I'm having trouble teasing out the implications of the Ioffe story. Very clearly, it's damning for Assange/Wikileaks. Is it also damning for Don, Jr. and the Trump campaign? Or is it (weakly) exculpatory? For example, Don, Jr. doesn't seem to have had foreknowledge of what Roger Stone was talking about when he tweeted, "“Wednesday@HillaryClinton is done. #WikiLeaks.” Jr. asks them, “What’s behind this Wednesday leak I keep reading about?”
posted by scarylarry at 2:03 PM on November 13, 2017


Colludy with a chance of rain...
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:04 PM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


That’s not a little scoop. It’s fucking collusion.

itshappening.gif

Of course Assange wanted and Ambassadorship. Of course.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:04 PM on November 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


Lawmakers demand investigation into FCC Chairman Ajit Pai (Jon Brodkin, Ars Technica)
Two Democratic lawmakers today called for an investigation into whether Federal Communications Commission Chairman Ajit Pai "has taken actions to improperly benefit Sinclair Broadcast Group."

The FCC has made several decision that benefit Sinclair, a broadcast station owner with a right-wing tilt. Among other things, the FCC rolled back broadcast TV station ownership limits, which could help Sinclair complete an acquisition of Tribune Media Company and, in the process, reach 72 percent of TV-owning households in the US.

[...]

We contacted Chairman Pai's office today, and a spokesperson provided this response:
Unfortunately, this request appears to be part of many Democrats' attempt to target one particular company because of its perceived political views, an effort that dates all the way back to 2004 when Ranking Member Pallone, Ranking Member Cummings, and other Democrats demanded that the FCC investigate Sinclair based solely on the content of a documentary they didn't like and that hadn't even aired. Any claim that Chairman Pai is modifying the rules now to benefit one particular company is completely baseless. For many years, Chairman Pai has called on the FCC to update its media ownership regulations—one of which dates back to 1975. The Chairman is sticking to his long-held views, and given the strong case for modernizing these rules, it's not surprising that those who disagree with him would prefer to do whatever they can to distract from the merits of his proposals.
posted by cybertaur1 at 2:09 PM on November 13, 2017 [49 favorites]


it's not surprising that those who disagree with him would prefer to do whatever they can to distract from the merits of his proposals.

Someone graduated from the Sarah Huckabee Sanders Finishing School for Snippy Arrogants

(before someone gets snippily arrogant on me, 'Arrogants' as a plural noun is intentional. thx)
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:13 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


First, these messages undercut part of the usual defense, which is that WikiLeaks (pause here to mock them for not even being a real wiki) was acting as a news organization when they received the DNC and Podesta documents and published them. News organizations do publish stolen documents sometimes, but encouraging a candidate to contest the results of an election and suggesting an ambassadorship goes well beyond the bounds of any normal journalistic endeavor. It speaks to WikiLeaks trafficking in campaign documents stolen by a foreign power to aid a specific candidate, rather than to disseminate news.

Second, it implicates Don Jr. in a conspiracy to violate the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (or, if he used the password, quite possibly in violating it himself).
posted by zachlipton at 2:19 PM on November 13, 2017 [26 favorites]


Julia Ioffe (who wrote the Atlantic story): "We've now updated the story with @ByronTau's great catch: @realDonaldTrump tweeted about the release of Podesta's emails *15 minutes* after @Wikileaks wrote to @DonaldJTrumpJr about it."
posted by scarylarry at 2:20 PM on November 13, 2017 [126 favorites]


(before someone gets snippily arrogant on me, 'Arrogants' as a plural noun is intentional. thx)

I first read it as "Argonauts" and thought we were back on the ichor derail again.
posted by zachlipton at 2:21 PM on November 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


Of course Assange wanted and Ambassadorship. Of course.

It'd be the first time the Australian Ambassador to the United States operated from a stationary cupboard in an Ecuadorian embassy.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:22 PM on November 13, 2017 [28 favorites]


Third, Mike Pence denied last year that the campaign was "in cahoots" with WikiLeaks
Indiana Gov. Mike Pence said Friday morning that despite rumors and suggestions to the contrary, the Republican presidential ticket has absolutely nothing to do with the avalanche of Hillary Clinton campaign emails released in recent days by WikiLeaks.

“Nothing could be further from the truth,” Pence said when asked by Fox News anchor Steve Doocy if Donald Trump’s campaign is “in cahoots” with the website releasing the emails. “I think all of us have, you know, have had concerns about WikiLeaks over the years and it's just a reality of American life today, and of life in the wider world.”
Don Jr tweeted out the link WikiLeaks sent him that same day.

Thus, once again, setting up Pence to be the guy who lies about shady Russian shit.
posted by zachlipton at 2:23 PM on November 13, 2017 [89 favorites]


General warning: It looks like I may lose power and internet in a little while due to high winds, and if I do I intend to take a long nap.

I do hope this does not coincide with too many other fitful naps or exactly how many people are on vacation out of cell range at this point, but this may be an unscheduled outage.

May god have mercy on us all!
posted by loquacious at 2:24 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


“If we publish them it will dramatically improve the perception of our impartiality,” WikiLeaks explained. “That means that the vast amount of stuff that we are publishing on Clinton will have much higher impact, because it won’t be perceived as coming from a ‘pro-Trump’ ‘pro-Russia’ source.”

Hahahahahaha. Can't wait for the Glenn Greenwald commentary!
posted by codacorolla at 2:25 PM on November 13, 2017 [41 favorites]


It's pronounced "Fronk-in-shteen".

I propose a self-care opportunity. GO WATCH YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN! Relax. Enjoy Life for an hour or two YOU DESERVE IT!
posted by mikelieman at 2:26 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


Also, holy shit, using the name of the site as the password. The democratic machine is as guilty of criminal incompetence as the republicans are of collusion.
posted by codacorolla at 2:27 PM on November 13, 2017 [19 favorites]


Trump’s Taxes Have Probably Already Been Hacked (John Powers in an Op Ed on Wired, Nov. 12, 2017)
A PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR named Jordan Hamlett is heading to trial next month in Louisiana for allegedly attempting to illegally obtain President Trump’s income tax returns. Hamlett's defense attorney says he’s a well-intentioned white hat hacker engaged in ethical acts, who was trying to notify the IRS that its system was vulnerable. He now faces up to five years in prison.

Whether his motivation was good or bad, Hamlett's hacking skills apparently weren’t great. Court records suggest he disregarded basic lessons of Hacking 101: First, don’t use your personal cell phone when penetration-testing the federal government; and second, don’t immediately confess when FBI and IRS agents engage you in a conversation in the lobby of an Embassy Suites hotel in Baton Rouge. Despite his rookie mistakes, Hamlett reportedly came close to getting the president’s personal tax information. And that says a lot.
Where the verb "hacked" means "have been accessed by hacking into the IRS or an entity or agency who has handled Trump's taxes."
posted by filthy light thief at 2:28 PM on November 13, 2017


Also, holy shit, using the name of the site as the password. The democratic machine is as guilty of criminal incompetence as the republicans are of collusion.

Well he is also responsible for ...buffering buffering buffering... Realplayer
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:32 PM on November 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


the average american thinks "i had capslock on and didn't realize and now i've used up all my password attempts" means they've been ~*hacked*~
posted by poffin boffin at 2:32 PM on November 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


Oops... Said April 13, 2017.

@nadabakos
Reminder: "Wikileaks is a 'hostile intelligence service helped by Russia,' says CIA director Mike Pompeo"
posted by chris24 at 2:35 PM on November 13, 2017 [32 favorites]


First, don’t use your personal cell phone when penetration-testing the federal government

oh my goodness, after this day, i needed that laugh
posted by halation at 2:37 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]



If Trump was watching Twitter or wikileaks he would have seen that they'd released the emails right? Are they trying to say here that wikileaks told Jr and be told Pop and pop tweeted?

Fair point, but I think that's a reasonably big "if." For what it's worth, Trump doesn't currently follow @wikileaks. I don't know if he did at the time. But the Podesta email drops surely got a lot of coverage, and it's fair to assume that *someone* would have brought one to his attention shortly after publication, whether or not wikileaks told his son to do it.
posted by scarylarry at 2:41 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


It really is Burn After Reading.

@ZeddRebel
ASSANGE: Here bro, commit this #crime real quick by hacking a website with this password I'm DMing you right now
JUNIOR: JUST DID! Thanks a lot and if you need help with any more #crimes my DMs are open
posted by chris24 at 2:42 PM on November 13, 2017 [45 favorites]


"Wikileaks is a 'hostile intelligence service helped by Russia,' says CIA director Mike Pompeo"

Pompeo then added: "Also, a Russian person trying to say the name Vicky Leeks would pronounce it Wiki Leaks. This is not in any way germane to the investigation, I just find it amusing."
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:43 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


when i was like 7 years old and wanted to stay up late to watch miami vice i took a yellow legal pad from my mom's office and carefully cut off the bottom 2 inches of the first page, leaving room for a signature line at the bottom like so X_______________

the top portion of the second page, cleverly concealed by the first, had a list of my demands, which my foolish parents would certainly sign thus contractually binding them to my new bedtime of whenever i wanted and also giving me a pony

tl;dr trump would definitely fall for this

someone write I DID A TREASON on a legal pad pls
posted by poffin boffin at 2:44 PM on November 13, 2017 [60 favorites]


Texas must assemble a commission on legislation to end gun violence (Dallas Morning News op-ed by GOP rep in Texas from Jason "More Guns, Less Money For Schools" Villalba*)
Today, I am respectfully asking the governor, lieutenant governor and speaker of the house of Texas to empanel a blue-ribbon Commission on Gun Violence In Texas. The primary charge of the commission shall be to determine the root causes of gun violence in Texas and to propose legislation to address these issues, to be adopted in the 86th Legislature. The secondary charge of the commission shall be to publish the findings of the commission and disseminate through education and conference the proposals of the commission.
Yes, he's still pushing the "more guns may make us more safe" angle:

Rep. Villalba Wants To Get To The Bottom Of Gun Violence (NPR, Nov. 13, 2017)
JASON VILLALBA: Well, imbued in the DNA of every Texan is the right to keep and bear arms. In fact, I have a weapon on me right at this moment.

GREENE: You do?

VILLALBA: Absolutely.

GREENE: What is it?

VILLALBA: It's a personal defense weapon. It's for use in a situation where someone would come to try to accost me in my car or mug me at night. But it's a little small, what they call a pocket pistol in Texas. And I'm going to get in my car in a few moments and drive down to Fredericksburg and do some hunting for some wild hogs. I'll be using an assault rifle.

But, you know, my proposal just said, let's consider all of the factors that may have led to this tragedy, one obviously mental health treatment, care, resources. But the other issue has to be looking at gun control. And it might not be gun control. Maybe it's expansion of gun rights, perhaps. We have to understand what is the best way to begin to stop this?
* Yes, post-Sandyhook, Villalba proposed 1) cutting funding for schools, and 2) that teachers arm themselves, with no additional funding to purchase said arms. Thanks, NPR, for giving air-time to this "balanced" voice.

Hey, if you want to get to the bottom of gun violence, don't let the NRA block funding for gun-related violence studies.

Here's one chart to explain the number of guns and the number of mass shootings in the US vs other countries (New York Times, Nov. 7, 2017). So yes, let's give everyone guns.

If that's not enough, here are 8 more charts, including a chilling one to remind Villalba and other like-minded "more guns = more safety" folks: in 2014, there were almost twice as many suicides by gun than homocides, including the one mass shooting of the year.

Oh, and in 2015, gun deaths and motor vehicle deaths converged, thanks to the continued decrease of vehicle fatalities (we are pouring money to address vehicle fatalities from various angle, from roadway design to vehicle standards to public outreach) and the slowly growing rate of gun deaths.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:47 PM on November 13, 2017 [9 favorites]


the top portion of the second page, cleverly concealed by the first, had a list of my demands, which my foolish parents would certainly sign thus contractually binding them to my new bedtime of whenever i wanted and also giving me a pony

See the problem is that if your parents refused to enforce it you couldn't even take it to court because "no actual injury” is actually a defense in contract law.

An experienced contract writer would know that you need to go with the carrot route. Promise good behavior and dishes done every night for a bedtime extension and stick to it. Then it's legally enforceable because you've supplied your end of the bargain.
posted by Talez at 2:49 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


And he's not even being paid by the NRA or other visible pro-gun groups! WTF, dude?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:50 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


And he's not even being paid by the NRA or other visible pro-gun groups! WTF, dude?

Step 1) NRA runs ads talking doom and to support pro-gun candidates
Step 2) Our friend, Texas House Member Dipshit says he's pro-gun and supports the second amendment
Step 3) Congratulations! You've just run ads supporting a congressperson without actually contributing to them!
posted by Talez at 2:57 PM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


While trumps perv et fils not may follow wikileaks, Donnyboy does, as of recently, follow glenngreenwald.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 3:01 PM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Trumps taxes have probably already been hacked

AHEM
*I* will eat a cake if Mueller has not already had ShitKnob's tax returns for months. And y'all can tell me whatever text you want the cake to have.
posted by yoga at 7:21 PM on October 18 [has favorites +] [!]
posted by yoga at 3:02 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


The over/under on Greenwald taking a slot on RT is 6 months.
posted by Justinian at 3:03 PM on November 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


In other news: Just to Be Clear, the Witch-King of Angmar Was an Insignificant Volunteer in the Great Army of the Dark Lord Sauron
posted by homunculus at 3:04 PM on November 13, 2017 [54 favorites]


Bannon’s in the collusion loop! Yay!!

My greatest hope now is that Huckabee Sanders is somehow implicated.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:10 PM on November 13, 2017 [14 favorites]


Kristy Eldredge, New Yorker: Welcome, New Facebook Employees Tracking Down Russian Ads
Welcome to Facebook! You’ve come on board at an exciting time. It’s been discovered that there are many Russian-bought ads on our site, which some say swayed the outcome of the latest Presidential election. So, even though we upload millions of ads from all over the world every day, we’ve created a new team to root out the Kremlin-backed ones. Suspicious things to look for include unusual syntax, unfamiliar organizations, and weirdly pornographic depictions of Bernie Sanders.

A sample our team found last week:

Jerry Marsh, Republican
Jerry Marsh, candidate for immigration reform, tells like is! Jerry living in U.S.A. twenty years plus. He knows how getting action. And he fix your refrigerator. Because Jerry is appliance salesman like you or me. If he made it big, does that make him enemy? No, makes him friend. Vote for Jerry!

Black Concerns Matter
Who forgets shameful treatment of blacks in nineteen-seventies disco era? Only monsters is who. We all know is problem. Now time for action! Send money, link below.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:13 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


The over/under on Greenwald taking a slot on RT is 6 months.

Nah. They wouldn’t transfer him to the public face of the organization. He’s much more valuable with the cover of a legitimate news org, even as his blatant conspicuousness surpasses that of James Bond.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:20 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Have they condemned the leaks of their conversions with Wikileaks yet?

Christ, I wish I could still enjoy irony. I’m bascially half a man without it.
posted by milarepa at 3:22 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


But his DMs.
posted by chris24 at 3:30 PM on November 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


That Hope Hicks interview must be driving him nuts. She's privy to all the dirt.

The Washington Post corroborates, "Trump also leans on two senior aides, counselor Kellyanne Conway and communications director Hope Hicks, as well as some outside friends for advice."

And confirmed in today's Atlantic's scoop: "[O]n the same day that Trump Jr. received the first message from Wikileaks, he emailed other senior officials with the Trump campaign, including Steve Bannon, Kellyanne Conway, Brad Parscale, and Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner, telling them Wikileaks had made contact. Kushner then forwarded the email to campaign communications staffer Hope Hicks."

And also in Carter Page's House Intelligence Committee testimony: "The testimony reveals new details about how Page kept people in the campaign informed about interactions he had with Russians, as well as more details about his Russian contacts beyond his encounter with Russian Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich during his July 2016 trip. [...] Page informed senior campaign officials Corey Lewandowski, Hope Hicks and JD Gordon about his trip ahead of time."

At this point, Hicks's own denials from this very time last year are looking rather suspect: "There was no communication between the campaign and any foreign entity during the campaign."
posted by Doktor Zed at 3:36 PM on November 13, 2017 [28 favorites]


AP Walker eliminates Wisconsin’s minimum hunting age
Children of any age can hunt in Wisconsin, after Gov. Scott Walker signed a bill that eliminates the state’s minimum age.

Walker quietly signed the Republican bill Saturday, exactly a week before the state’s nine-day gun deer hunting was set to open. The law took effect Monday. Kids will have to wait five days before they can start shooting deer, but they can participate in several seasons already underway, including bow deer, pheasant, ruffed grouse, rabbit and squirrel.
Wisconsin is not alone, 34 other states have no minimum hunting age, but it is interesting that the NRA-controlled Republicans felt 10 was too old a threshold.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:39 PM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


These are modern day Republicans we're talking about. Ten years old is practically over-the-hill.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:44 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


I suppose for a republican if a kid is old enough to marry they're old enough to hunt.
posted by Artw at 3:49 PM on November 13, 2017 [27 favorites]


I'm afraid this will kick-off a parental one-up-manship deluge where people try to claim the youngest hunter to kill [insert adorable animal that should be left alone.]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:00 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Republicans 2018: "Guns for Zygotes!"
posted by Celsius1414 at 4:07 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


Buzzfeed A Trump Judicial Nominee Appears To Have Written About Politics On A Sports Website And Didn't Disclose It

That would be the same jackass we have been talking about all day-- the one who is married to the assistant of the guy in charge of Judicial nominees and the one who graduated 3 years ago from law school but has yet to try a case. He "forgot" to disclose some of his more political blog entries to the Senate.
Many of BamainBoston's posts are about sports. But some address politics and other non-sports subjects. On Dec. 17, 2012, a few days after the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, BamainBoston posted, "My solution would be to stop being a society of pansies and man up."
But then all of Trump's people seem particularly forgetful.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:07 PM on November 13, 2017 [37 favorites]


I mean, if they're just going to be rubberstamped with no oversight anyway why not use the total garbage?
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on November 13, 2017


NRA-controlled Republicans felt 10 was too old a threshold.

The concern for some time has been that hunting, as a sport, is not being passed on generationally. (Something else Millennials have ruined!) Since hunting provides an entry into gun culture, this is seen as a Bad Thing, because it will shrink the ranks of gun ownership and thus gun rights support. (And on the other side of the counter, gun sales.)

Seen this way, many gun-related initiatives make more sense as a means to keep the gun claque as large as possible -- like the bump stocks used in the Las Vegas massacre, which are defended as aids to the disabled gun enthusiast.

It'd be the first time the Australian Ambassador to the United States operated from a stationary cupboard in an Ecuadorian embassy.

But precisely not, as he may believe it will grant him diplomatic immunity and thus an exit from his predicament. (The governing diplomatic protocol may be waived by the sending state, however, so it would matter whether Australia would bow to Sweden's request in this matter.) I doubt he actually wants to be Ambassador as such, he just needs a way out.

Of his cupboard.
posted by dhartung at 4:09 PM on November 13, 2017 [12 favorites]


"My solution would be to stop being a society of pansies and man up."

The judge said, slamming down his gavel.
posted by notyou at 4:18 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'm 34, I'm a practicing lawyer 8 years out of law school (yea, I went straight through) and have never tried a real case in federal court. I do administrative and regulatory stuff. The idea that I'd be nominated for lifetime appointment as an article III judge is fucking insane, and I'm legitimately more qualified than Talley.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:23 PM on November 13, 2017 [117 favorites]


I am totally gonna nominate TD Strange for a federal judgeship if I get elected.
posted by Justinian at 4:25 PM on November 13, 2017 [73 favorites]


Huh. Don, Jr. now tweeting screenshots of his DMs: "Here is the entire chain of messages with @wikileaks (with my whopping 3 responses) which one of the congressional committees has chosen to selectively leak. How ironic!"

Remember how he tweeted his collusion emails shortly before the story broke?
posted by scarylarry at 4:25 PM on November 13, 2017 [57 favorites]


Don Jr. just tweeted out his messages with WikiLeaks, because apparently he can't shut up and he's somehow more committed to transparency than a radical transparency organization, or something.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Least of his sins, but he should learn to thread his damn tweets.
posted by zachlipton at 4:26 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


How is it possible that he doesn't understand that it's not what's in the DMs (which is also very bad), but the fact that he has documented contact with someone that they're under oath saying he never contacted? How is he so stupid?
posted by codacorolla at 4:31 PM on November 13, 2017 [35 favorites]


How is he so stupid?

Bad genes.
posted by scarylarry at 4:32 PM on November 13, 2017 [55 favorites]


I am so glad the big bad villains of this timeline are that dumb. May Mueller nail his ass to the wall with this admission of guilt.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 4:33 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


AP: Trump choosing white men as judges, highest rate in decades
President Donald Trump is nominating white men to America’s federal courts at a rate not seen in nearly 30 years, threatening to reverse a slow transformation toward a judiciary that reflects the nation’s diversity.

So far, 91 percent of Trump’s nominees are white, and 81 percent are male, an Associated Press analysis has found. Three of every four are white men, with few African-Americans and Hispanics in the mix. The last president to nominate a similarly homogenous group was George H.W. Bush.
posted by chris24 at 4:33 PM on November 13, 2017 [30 favorites]


and I'm legitimately more qualified than Talley.

Do you have a racist blog?
posted by ctmf at 4:34 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


Don Jr. just tweeted out his messages with WikiLeaks, because apparently he can't shut up

"No no, dig up stupid!"
posted by supercrayon at 4:36 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


My theory is that Junior was used as a tackling dummy for the New Jersey Generals as a youth.
posted by delfin at 4:37 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


I remember the last time Don Jr. did something stupid, the base was up in arms: "He's in his 30s, just a CHIYULD! He can't be held responsible for his actions!" The same people who think that teenage girls, and black boys who are actual little children (like Tamir Rice who wasn't even a teenager) are culpable for everything they do.

Don Jr. makes Fredo Corleone look actually smaaht and worthy of respect.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:41 PM on November 13, 2017 [16 favorites]


I can't imagine even the Federalist Society is happy with that nomination. Yes, they want young conservative judges, but that job is hard. Even ultra-pro business Republican die hards should want someone smart as hell and experienced, with a long track record of publications advancing a pro-business view point and demonstrating they understand how to advance the case law towards a policy goal. Even if you're the Kochs, you don't want just an alt-right dude writing "the white guy wins because #MAGA" in every case. Even for Republicans, the appearance of intelligence and coherent legal reasoning matters. The cover story matters. That's why they loved Scalia so much, his opinions were mostly "Republicans win because #MAGA", but he wrote them in such a way to cover up the fact that that's what he was doing. Or at least the cover story used to matter. Maybe they think we're already so far gone that "because #MAGA" is the only legal opinion they'll ever need again, and if Trump gets one more seat on SCOTUS, maybe they're right.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:43 PM on November 13, 2017 [20 favorites]


It'd be the first time the Australian Ambassador to the United States operated from a stationary cupboard in an Ecuadorian embassy.

Or even a mobile one, for that matter.

The thing I am most ashamed of in the past two years of my life is being in a situation where I was directly in contact with Mr Assange and not seizing the opportunity to tell him exactly what I thought of him. When all this is said and done – because yes, I do now believe we'll survive and possibly even recover from this – there are going to be a lot of folks on the left with some major explaining to do as to why the utterly toxic Assange apologia was tolerated for so long.
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:46 PM on November 13, 2017 [18 favorites]


“I didn’t say anything that wasn’t true. Your father’s a scoundrel, and so, it seems, are you.”
posted by Huffy Puffy at 4:53 PM on November 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


@sarahjeong on the wikileaks of the ioffe article: "it's like the political equivalent of 'hey wouldn't it be funny if we made out HAHAHA'"
posted by murphy slaw at 5:06 PM on November 13, 2017 [22 favorites]


Surprisingly, his undisclosed sport blog comments contain some not-completely-horrible opinions about immigration reform.
As for those people who are already here, yes, they violated the law. Great. That tells us nothing. The debate is how to punish that violation of the law. Go ahead. Punish them. Fine them. Whatever. Then give them a path to citizenship. The last thing we want here is a permanent underclass of people. And the thought of the police breaking down the doors of otherwise law abiding citizens and dragging them out to be deported is horrible and un-American. The crime most of these people committed is wanting a better life."
posted by nonasuch at 5:09 PM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


The current GOP must think Trump's killed the party, and there's only so much time left before they bleed out.

Or they know they have the backing of a foreign state intelligence service and the means to ensure they never face another fair election nationally again. Are we glass half full, or half empty today.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:10 PM on November 13, 2017 [23 favorites]


I freely admit that I was fooled by Assange for a long time, even after I thought he was a rapist sleaze. The thing is, with the exception of wanting Trump to win, he was pretty politically similar to a lot of radical media/hacky/transparancy dudes I've met over the years, and while they might hate Hillary Clinton like poison, they would never hate her enough to want to install Trump, and they have the mother wit to be as skeptical of Putin as of the American oligarchy. I really thought he was basically like that, and for a long, long time I figured that when Wikileaks did stuff that I thought was careless and stupid, it was just carelessness and stupidity.

As a broad generality, the media types I've met have been small-d democratic to the core - whether clever or stupid, they would not think that it was up to them to try to play geopolitical games to override the popular vote, not even if they had some kind of ill-conceived belief that this would topple the American empire.

It's a repulsive end for someone who could have been great. I remember when I admired him, and I think I admired him for the right reasons. But that was a long time ago now.
posted by Frowner at 5:11 PM on November 13, 2017 [25 favorites]


I freely admit that I was fooled by Assange Roy Moore for a long time, even after I thought he was a rapist sleaze.

Ideology is a helluva drug.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 5:16 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


and nobody — including me — is immune
posted by Barack Spinoza at 5:17 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


WaPo: Sessions considering second special counsel to investigate Republican concerns, letter shows
posted by scarylarry at 5:23 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


@Green_Footballs
Julian Assange accused The Atlantic of deceptively editing his messages with Trump Junior. Then Trump Jr. tweeted out the whole sleazy chain of messages and confirmed everything in the Atlantic article. http://lgf.bz/2iUYzlV


@joshtpm
LOL. Anderson Cooper breaks into the telecast to show live footage of Pence throwing Don Jr under a bus. VIDEO

---

Pence spokesman says he never knew or was informed about any contacts with Wikileaks.
posted by chris24 at 5:28 PM on November 13, 2017 [55 favorites]


Orin Kerr points out that even just passing on the password would be enough for Don Jr. to have violated the law. That's trafficking in a password to access a computer without authorization.
posted by zachlipton at 5:35 PM on November 13, 2017 [26 favorites]


Our favorite former federal prosecutor:

@renato_mariotti
One interesting tidbit in Trump Jr.'s messages with Wikileaks: they suggest communicating "lawyer to lawyer," something you do to make sure the statements can't be used against you, because you are not the one communicating. It suggests they knew this discussion was problematic.
posted by chris24 at 5:36 PM on November 13, 2017 [42 favorites]


Also implicates the lawyers. Crime fraud exception again, attorney-client privilege is gone.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:41 PM on November 13, 2017 [33 favorites]


The Times has its version of the special counsel story: Justice Department to Consider Special Counsel for Uranium One Deal

Trump is apparently running around asking why Mueller isn't investigating the uranium deal. Investigating it may help save Sessions job:
People close to the White House believe Mr. Sessions can stop the president from firing him by appointing a special counsel to investigate the uranium deal.
...
As the special counsel’s investigation into Mr. Trump and his associates has intensified in recent weeks, Mr. Trump has asked allies and advisers why the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, is not investigating the Uranium One case, according to a person familiar with the president’s discussions on the matter. The allies and advisers have told Mr. Trump that Mr. Mueller’s purview is only to look into Russian interference in the 2016 election, the person said. In response, Mr. Trump has said that the Uranium One relates to Russia.
Sessions, of course, supposedly recused himself from everything to do with the 2016 election.
posted by zachlipton at 5:44 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Junior remains confused about the logistics of getting in front of a story.
posted by diogenes at 5:47 PM on November 13, 2017 [17 favorites]


donald trump, jr. is a one-man, iron-clad argument against white male superiority
posted by murphy slaw at 5:50 PM on November 13, 2017 [84 favorites]


I love that Donnie Half-Scoop is the smart one. Like, "Eric is too dumb too keep in the loop on this. Junior, though, he's the real brains!"

Congratulations, Don. You managed to raise two sons who are even more epically stupid than you are.
posted by dirigibleman at 5:50 PM on November 13, 2017 [20 favorites]


> Here in Kansas, there came a point where they couldn't blame anyone but the Republicans for what happened. Immigrants, liberals, abortions, etc. didn't slash school funding. The liberals weren't responsible for the increasing number of potholes and the reductions in popular state services. And the teabaggers paid a price at the polls.

‘One of the most secretive, dark states’: What is Kansas trying to hide?

Pay Attention to the Kansas Disaster: It's What Republicans Want for the Whole Country. Sam Brownback and co. have tried to cover up just how bad it is.
posted by homunculus at 5:51 PM on November 13, 2017 [54 favorites]


The current GOP must think Trump's killed the party, and there's only so much time left before they bleed out.

No. They think the party is fine (in the sense it has inertia much like a zombie corpse) but conservatism is dead in this country replaced by Trumpism.
posted by Talez at 5:53 PM on November 13, 2017


The current GOP must think Trump's killed the party, and there's only so much time left before they bleed out.

Or they know they have the backing of a foreign state intelligence service and the means to ensure they never face another fair election nationally again.

I'm not sure they know how it's going to play out either way, but they're all in either way.
They certainly aren't acting like people with any interest in governing a functioning society.
posted by bongo_x at 6:07 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


donald trump, jr. is a one-man, iron-clad argument against white male superiority

Bro, he can't even lift.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:11 PM on November 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


Re: Junior
You know how people scoff at high school algebra because they're "never gonna use it" in real life? I wish I remembered more from the cyber law classes in law school. I mean I never thought the topic would be irrelevant but nor did I exactly expect it to be front-page stupid timeline. Kinda like a specialist subject that could really clinch your team's win of the pub quiz, if only you'd studied it more (except there's more than a pub quiz at stake).

Time to go dig up our notes on cyberlaw's origins in espionage law, criminal (and civil) consequences, debates over defining "unauthorized" access, etc...
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:18 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Mod note: Couple deleted. For Roy Moore stuff, please head over to the Roy Moore thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:18 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Bro, he can't even lift.

I thought the link was going prove that he's The Dumbest Boy Alive.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:20 PM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


I really enjoy the story people have posted here before about how when Junior was born, DJT didn't want to call him after himself at first because what if he turned out to be awful, it would be embarrassing. especially since the dead alcoholic older Trump brother DJT allegedly cared about was a Junior himself, named after their dad, and that would have been his reference point, what he was alluding to in his typically unspeakable fashion.

so, because it doesn't matter if it's true, I go on believing DT2 is just doing all this purely and simply to soil the DT name beyond repair. unconsciously, if you like, since he is too stupid for clever plots. even though you'd think the name was soiled enough, because his dad is not the type who would recognize a stain on the family name if he put it there himself, only if somebody else did. and DT2 does hate his dad even though he has no brains or other redeeming qualities. nobody will ever convince me he suddenly stopped hating him after college, that doesn't happen.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:25 PM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Think about Assange, alleged world class security expert and hacker, conducting no-shit-not-even-exaggerating-espionage against the US via unecrypted Twitter DM. We've seen like, 10? of his DMs with Don Jr., and they basically could not be more incriminating. Imagine how much other shit is in his DM stream. Or in Don Jrs. And how many other Republican and Trumpworld operatives he could've been DMing with. Mueller has every last message, because all he has to do is slap Twitter with an administrative subpoena.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:27 PM on November 13, 2017 [45 favorites]


Isn't opening a second investigation one of the things Bannon said that Trump should do in order to curtail Mueller's investigation?
posted by gucci mane at 6:27 PM on November 13, 2017


If you do a Google search for "wlsearch.tk" restricted to the dates 7Oct2016-15Oct2016 (Podesta leak date to Don Trump Jr's tweet-on-request):
https://www.google.com/search?q=wlsearch.tk&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A10%2F7%2F2016%2Ccd_max%3A10%2F15%2F2016
There are only nine results. All but two seem to be false positives. The remaining two: Trump Jr's Tweet and some wikileaks propagandist of the Podesta dump.


tl;dr: That website does not seem to have been public knowledge.
posted by pjenks at 6:31 PM on November 13, 2017 [21 favorites]


Trump is landing in my state again on his way back from Asia for about 90 minutes. Presumably for a bathroom break.

I know, I know, this is entering "look at this ass eating crackers" territory. I just hate him being on the same land mass I'm on.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:31 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


Pence spokesman says he never knew or was informed about any contacts with Wikileaks.
... continuing, "Really, Pence had just joined the campaign as a volunteer and mostly served as a coffee boy."

Starbucks Coffee refused to comment on Pence's new claim, requesting that further communications on the subject be directed to Starbucks's lawyer.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:33 PM on November 13, 2017 [9 favorites]


They certainly aren't acting like people with any interest in governing a functioning society.

Depends on how one would define a functioning society. For example, Oiltown under Immortan Joe isn't quite Switzerland, but it could be said to function, from some points of view.
posted by acb at 6:35 PM on November 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


ass eating crackers

That's a hell of an act
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:40 PM on November 13, 2017 [25 favorites]


"ass-eating crackers"
posted by Mental Wimp at 6:52 PM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


We need to make a change to this. It's now 'dotard eating burgers'.

Warning you all, his eating habits offend me. I'll always point it out, but I promise that I'll preface it by 'I get that this is a little dotard eating burgers, but the dotard is literally eating burgers'
posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:59 PM on November 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


he has documented contact with someone that they're under oath saying he never contacted

Does someone have a link to this? It's hard to keep track of who's lied about what.
posted by EarBucket at 7:01 PM on November 13, 2017


Benjamin Wittes - Tick Tick guy and friend of Comey - has a possible less worrisome interpretation of the Sessions special prosecutor letter.
posted by chris24 at 7:03 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


I'm much less concerned with the letter itself than I am with Trump running around trying to interfere with the Justice Department and whining about why they aren't investigating Clinton, especially if he's threatening Sessions' job over it.
posted by zachlipton at 7:05 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


> It's hard to keep track of who's lied about what.

Everyone in the Trump administration, about everything of consequence, apparently.
At this point, it would be easier to keep track of when Don Jr. or Sessions told the truth.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:05 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


WaPo: Sessions considering second special counsel to investigate Republican concerns, letter shows

It's the next chapter in America's "choose your own reality" adventure! Every cubic micron of water is beshitted with mud! You have your FBI investigation, I have mine! WHAT IS TRUTH< WHO EVEN CAN SAY

I thought I was done being amazed at the sheer, titanic fucking shamelessness of these people. I was wrong.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 7:07 PM on November 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


I bet, racist and ignorant as they are, not a single member of the Trump campaign has ever watched The Wire.

Because if they had, they would have learned that you don't take notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy.

edit: looks like I'm not the only one who had this same thought. First YouTube comment: If only the current President had watched this; then he might not have done the EXACT SAME THING.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:07 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


Julia Ioffe confirms what it looked like from the screenshots, Don Jr. left something out: "There are a couple missing pages in this release."

So now the question is what did he clip out?
posted by zachlipton at 7:08 PM on November 13, 2017 [27 favorites]


Julia Ioffe confirms what it looked like from the screenshots, Don Jr. left something out: "There are a couple missing pages in this release."

now deleted, and replaced with My bad, didn’t realize there were three tweets. Carry on!
posted by russm at 7:17 PM on November 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


This Roger Stone timeline from CNN is interesting. Stone said in at least four interviews that he was getting his scoops about upcoming Wikileaks releases from "a mutual friend."
posted by EarBucket at 7:18 PM on November 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


Are we at the point where we can resurrect the Bush -era "surely this" phrase?
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:22 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


From GWBush's former WH Ethics lawyer.

@RWPUSA
This is an abuse of power to go after political opponents. At this point there is no choice but for Congress to impeach.

Sessions Reportedly Considering Second Special Counsel for Hillary Clinton, Uranium One http://thebea.st/2moxxbt via @thedailybeast
posted by chris24 at 7:23 PM on November 13, 2017 [38 favorites]


Are we at the point where we can resurrect the Bush -era "surely this" phrase?

uh it didn't help much last time around
posted by murphy slaw at 7:24 PM on November 13, 2017 [9 favorites]


I understand “surely this” is being reserved for the thread title once impeachment actually happens (and not before).
posted by stopgap at 7:26 PM on November 13, 2017 [27 favorites]


The current GOP must think Trump's killed the party, and there's only so much time left before they bleed out.

They nominated Trump as a hail marry pass, because they knew they'd already killed the party a decade ago, or maybe two. Now they have to kill democracy before the backlash hits them, because that'll be game over, and they thought maybe Trump was the man for the job. The only reason we've still got a shot, is because by 2010 they'd so poisoned their own institutional intelligence that they're incapable of recognizing gross incompetence.
posted by dirge at 7:28 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


At this point there is no choice but for Congress to impeach.

Uhhh, impeach whom? Surely not Jeff Sessions.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:29 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


At this point there is no choice but for Congress to impeach.

He's serious? He's can't actually be serious right? Someone tell this man to watch FOX News. Has he even met a Republican member of Congress? They just spent the last 4 days covering for pedophilia, there is literally nothing that will get this Congress to impeach.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:30 PM on November 13, 2017 [26 favorites]


At this point we need a novelty MeFi bot to post outrageous news to the political threads. username: Shirley This
posted by ctmf at 7:31 PM on November 13, 2017 [13 favorites]


And her evil twin sister, Maeby Nott.
posted by elsietheeel at 7:34 PM on November 13, 2017 [15 favorites]


I wanted to date Shirley, but ended up going out with Maeby...who preferred for me to address her by her surname, for some reason.
posted by maxwelton at 7:51 PM on November 13, 2017


"surely this" isn't funny

It's the calling cry of the death of our democracy
posted by yesster at 7:53 PM on November 13, 2017 [4 favorites]


Remember when there was a news cycle?
posted by codacorolla at 7:54 PM on November 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


I know we're all punch drunk on the idiocy of this whole time line, but "surely this" really hurts
posted by yesster at 7:54 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


And her evil twin sister, Maeby Nott.

I just met you and shirley this is crazy so here's number so call me maeby?
posted by Talez at 7:55 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


ELECTIONS NEWS

** PA-18 special -- GOP has chosen a candidate in the special to fill Tim Murphy's seat, state Rep. Rick Saccone. This might be a bit of a risk - he's widely seen as the most conservative of the possible candidates, and maybe too far out for the suburban parts of the district. His earlier campaign for Sen. Casey's seat was also seen as stumbling. Dems will pick their candidate this Sunday.

** 2018 House:
-- Another retirement today, as TX-29's Gene Green is not running for re-election. This is a super safe seat (won 73-24 in 2016, Clinton 71-25 and Obama 66-33). Main point of interest might be possibility of adding a Hispanic rep (Green is white).

-- Interesting chart show how many people used the state & local tax deduction in the 23 GOP-held districts that voted for Clinton. These reps may want to update their LinkedIn profile.

-- Latest House ratings from Gonzales. 8 move left, 2 move right.

-- And latest DecisionDesk ratings. 3 left, 1 right. Also their latest model, which is purely data based. Also notice the long tail for Dems, which is a product of gerrymandering - it's tough to get to a point where you can flip, but once you do, small changes can flip many more seats.

-- Politico: NJ GOP reps in a bad spot.
** Odds & ends:
-- Update on Virginia House of Delegates races: HD-94 is within 10 votes now, and considered a good chance to flip on a recount. HD-40 is almost certainly out of reach (106 votes) and HD-28 probably so (84 votes). If 94 flips, the HOD would be tied 50-50. Next step is formal state certification on Nov 20, after which recount action can begin.

Looking way ahead to 2019, Northam won in 24 of the 40 state Senate districts. GOP controls 21-19, but that should be in serious danger, offering Dems change of unified control at that point.

-- Ezra Klein points out that all of those "Trump voters here in Rustburg, OH still back him" stories are pointless, because everyone always retains their core supporters. Hoover kept 80% of his supporters in 1932, and people were literally starving in the streets. You can pick off the "reluctantly supported" voters, that's about it.

-- HuffPo: Current GOP in position of Buchanan-era Dems: near-total control that rapidly disintegrated into in-fighting and total collapse.
=> Elections tomorrow! Runoff for the mayor of Albuquerque (the Dem has a 53-34 lead in a recent poll), and three specials in OK: SD-37, SD-45, and HD-76.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:56 PM on November 13, 2017 [49 favorites]


They nominated Trump as a hail marry pass, because they knew they'd already killed the party a decade ago, or maybe two.

Maybe I'm being pedantic here but I disagree with this interpretation. The GOP nominated Trump because they have a weird primary with winner-take-all states (and, of course, plurality voting). There were a lot of primary voters that didn't want Trump, but their votes were consistently split, which allowed Trump to take a plurality of votes in many states (which gave him all or most of the delegates in many states).

Both parties, take note! Politics would be saner if you used proportional delegate allocation (like the Dems have) and something other than plurality voting (so people don't have to worry about splitting the sane vote). I describe my beautiful dark twisted electoral fantasy here.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:05 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


Think about Assange, alleged world class security expert and hacker, conducting no-shit-not-even-exaggerating-espionage against the US via unecrypted Twitter DM.

Getting "caught" like this is part of it. Stirs up more shit. Fakes you out.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 8:08 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Assange doing this makes sense when you remeber he’s like a weirdo trapped inside who can only Keep Posting and all politics is now just forum drama
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 PM on November 13, 2017 [57 favorites]


The GOP nominated Trump because they have a weird primary with winner-take-all states

Well, yes, but I don't think my explanation of why is incompatible with your explanation of how. Sure, that primary system institutionally biases them in favor of doubling down, but the system is itself a product of a constituency that prefers it that way. This started a long time ago, and it's long been clear that the escalation would continue to a dramatic breaking point.

A lot of people, Republicans included, thought Obama's win was that breaking point, and the party should reset to cope with the obvious reality that they'd shifted away from the mainstream. A lot of factors, including partisan activism, media landscape, money, and institutional architecture that biases towards doubling down, caused them to, instead, double down. The people who stuck with the party were happy with that outcome, and vice versa, so the institution was reinforced, like the last time, and the time before that.

The closer we get to the point where the GOP as it exists is untenable as a democratic institution, the more intense the forces are that encourage it to go for broke, to become straightforwardly undemocratic. It's pretty clear that we're past that point now, so the party as an institution is exhibiting "cornered animal" or "extinction burst" behaviors. Those apparently counterproductive behaviors exist precisely because they're occasionally successful, and when you're facing down oblivion, there's no downside.

Trump voters know for a fact that if they can't establish an undemocratic stranglehold on the government, then their "culture" won't long survive in a democratic society. They're absolutely right about that. Trump is their attempt to preserve a culture incompatible with democracy.

So it's a race. Can they dismantle democracy faster than democracy can reject them?

I'd say we're lucky they chose a moron to carry the baton, but it's not luck at all. Incompetence and authoritarianism are mutually reinforcing. That weird primary system, and everything else they've built since the Southern Strategy, all but guaranteed that their standard bearer would be an avatar of idiocy.
posted by dirge at 9:00 PM on November 13, 2017 [65 favorites]


Assange is clever, but only in certain ways. For instance, he's notoriously bad at social interactions. The idea of computer-mediated radical transparency attracted a lot of very bright people with skills that complemented his own, but basically every account says that their work was sabotaged by Assange being Assange.

Also and alternatively, it's quite possible that Assange exhausted every other avenue of reaching the Trump family (who are not known for their technical smarts). He may have figured that Don Jr's Twitter account wasn't an obvious target for social engineering and that Twitter wasn't known to be hackable. In contrast, the vulnerability of email servers would have been very much on his mind. The only reason we're seeing these Tweets is that (a) Trump won an unexpected election; and (b) the suspicions surrounding the Family's behaviour were enough to surmount the IOKIYAR force field. Assange clearly didn't predict either of those.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:05 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


The Times story on a second very special counsel has been updated. As I see it, the problem isn't the DOJ letter, which is fairly noncommittal; it's Trump:
Mr. Trump, who closely monitors the conservative news media ecosystem for ideas on how to attack his opponents, has cited reports from those outlets to aides and friends as examples for why a special counsel should be appointed.

One commentator in particular, the Fox News host Jeanine Pirro — who is a friend of Mr. Trump’s and whose show he rarely misses — has aggressively denounced Mr. Sessions as weak for not investigating the uranium deal. In addition to making scathing critiques on her show, Ms. Pirro, — who had interviewed to be the deputy attorney general, according to three transition officials — recently met with the president to excoriate the attorney general.

In an Oval Office meeting on Nov. 1, Ms. Pirro said that a special counsel needed to be appointed, according to two people briefed on the discussion. Through a Fox News spokeswoman, Jeanine Pirro said, “Everything I said to President Trump is exactly what I’ve vocalized on my show, ‘Justice with Jeanine.’”
The guy can get legal advice from any scholar or experienced practitioner in the world, and he chooses Jeanine Pirro.
posted by zachlipton at 9:12 PM on November 13, 2017 [61 favorites]


Supplemental Election News: The PA Supreme Court has fast-tracked the state's gerrymandering lawsuit, calling for a decision by the end of the year.

Experts view Pennsylvania as one of the nation’s most gerrymandered states, with congressional and legislative boundaries drawn to partisan advantage. While Pennsylvania’s voters are fairly evenly split between the parties, Republicans have 13 of the state’s 18 seats in the U.S. House of Representatives.
posted by Dashy at 9:18 PM on November 13, 2017 [38 favorites]


Archive.org has 53 captures of the putintrump.org site mentioned in the Ioffe story linked and quoted by Atom Eyes and others.
I looked back to September 23, 2016, through to December 15, 2016 I don’t see any obvious meddling favoring Trump's campaign.
However, in keeping with the stupidest timeline, the hashtag they were promoting, #PUTINTRUMP looks like ‘put in trump’ to my eyes.
posted by Gadgetenvy at 9:24 PM on November 13, 2017 [6 favorites]


Yes, the PA SC decision will impact the 2018 elections. And it's not impacted by the federal lawsuits, this is under the PA constitution. Dems control the PA SC 5-2, by the by.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:40 PM on November 13, 2017 [8 favorites]


The guy can get legal advice from any scholar or experienced practitioner in the world, and he chooses Jeanine Pirro.

And he gets a daily briefing of the most classified information in the world, but only listens to Steve Doocy.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:46 PM on November 13, 2017 [11 favorites]


Man, I remember when Steve Doocy was the wacky features reporter for WRC-TV in DC. It makes me incredibly sad to see that what he's become.
posted by hanov3r at 9:59 PM on November 13, 2017 [1 favorite]


Assange is clever, but only in certain ways. For instance, he's notoriously bad at social interactions. The idea of computer-mediated radical transparency attracted a lot of very bright people with skills that complemented his own, but basically every account says that their work was sabotaged by Assange being Assange.

yeah, that whole thing about being a creepy fucker who doesn't realize how creepy he his thing.

He's got that down pat.
posted by yesster at 10:06 PM on November 13, 2017 [2 favorites]


Try to get some sleep tonight.

@realDonaldTrump I will be making a major statement from the @WhiteHouse upon my return to D.C. Time and date to be set.
posted by guiseroom at 10:39 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


"MY FELLOW AMERICANS, I MADE A POOPY"
posted by murphy slaw at 10:44 PM on November 13, 2017 [27 favorites]


This is just straight-up trolling by Trump. He's making a statement, about something, somewhere, sometime. It's just like his "calm before the storm" military nonsense last month. Maybe he has something to say, maybe he doesn't, but he knows he's in our heads and can troll the entire nation with this nonsense. Maybe they'll be a statement, or maybe this will be like his promise to release his tax returns after the audit is complete and we'll just spend the next few years being slowly driven mad as we wonder what he has to say and when will it happen.

Or we can fill up this thread with hundreds of comments speculating.
posted by zachlipton at 10:44 PM on November 13, 2017 [43 favorites]


Must be he's going to announce Infrastructure Week 2 - The Infrastructuring.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:44 PM on November 13, 2017 [19 favorites]


He did promise he would make his position on Hezbollah clear in 24 hours, and that was back in July. Maybe he's finally going to tell us, he says, knowing full well that we will never find out what Trump's position on Hezbollah is.
posted by zachlipton at 10:47 PM on November 13, 2017 [3 favorites]


Maybe he’ll resign.
posted by Brak at 10:54 PM on November 13, 2017 [5 favorites]


someone told him santa claus isn't real and he's going to announce that we're bombing the north pole in retaliation
posted by poffin boffin at 10:58 PM on November 13, 2017 [7 favorites]


maybe he's appointing a horse to the senate which lbr would be a fucking improvement
posted by poffin boffin at 11:00 PM on November 13, 2017 [21 favorites]


Trump apparently ditched the summit's "family photo" and left, saying some stuff about how the US is "open for trade" and our relationship with the Philippines is "probably better than ever before."

@W7VOA: "It appears @POTUS is now skipping the East Asia Summit plenary which was a major reason for staying the extra day here in the @Philippines."

His remarks seem normal enough, if generally devoid of content and buddying up with Duterte is normal enough, but he's just ditching out on the end of the summit? I'm officially concerned.
posted by zachlipton at 11:15 PM on November 13, 2017 [10 favorites]


Richard Javad Heydarian, WaPo: This is how a superpower commits suicide
While America continues to maintain a significant military edge over its closest rivals, it’s gradually losing the main battle that is defining this century: trade and investment. Meanwhile, China is busy shaping the world in its own image with verve and vigor. In a surreal twist of events, a communist regime has now emerged as the unlikely guardian of globalization and multilateral diplomacy.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:15 PM on November 13, 2017 [55 favorites]


Richard Javad Heydarian, WaPo: This is how a superpower commits suicide
While America continues to maintain a significant military edge over its closest rivals, it’s gradually losing the main battle that is defining this century: trade and investment. Meanwhile, China is busy shaping the world in its own image with verve and vigor. In a surreal twist of events, a communist regime has now emerged as the unlikely guardian of globalization and multilateral diplomacy.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:15 PM on November 13 [6 favorites +] [!]

In conversations leading up to the election last year I spent a lot of energy trying to convince people (who are not USians) that there is no way Trump could win. That it would be against everyone's best interest.

"Everyone" in that sentence was meant as a stalking horse for 'the really rich or powerful.' Turns out, jokes on me! There is no oligarchical star-room overseeing the propulsion of USA to the forefront. No one is actually at the helm! You wanna buy yourself America? Yes you can! And "Putin's" scheme is really, truly, brilliant - get Trump into power and just watch him break it all apart, all on his own! Putin need do nothing! The one, single tell-tale indication, the clue that just might give it all away, let us in on the secret of what the fuck really just happened here, is the repeal of the Magnitsky Act. Assuming that is the actual "quo" in question, the point of all this elaborate misery.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:31 AM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


Richard Javad Heydarian, WaPo: This is how a superpower commits suicide

Add Britain performing seppuku with Brexit and it's like Russia actually won the Cold War.
posted by PenDevil at 12:35 AM on November 14, 2017 [40 favorites]


Remember when there was a news cycle?

Yes, it seems like those days were the penny farthing era of news. I'm not sure what we have now. It seems to involve sucking all the air from the room and transporting you between two places as quickly and uncomfortably as possible in a bubble, so let's go with News Hyperloop.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:56 AM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


>Think about Assange, alleged world class security expert and hacker, conducting no-shit-not-even-exaggerating-espionage against the US via unecrypted Twitter DM.

Think about Assange, alleged world class security expert and hacker, trying to explain to DJT, Jr. how to use any form of encryption even slightly more complicated than a straight substitution cipher.
posted by xyzzy at 1:18 AM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


Think about Assange, alleged world class security expert and hacker, trying to explain to DJT, Jr. how to use any form of encryption even slightly more complicated than a straight substitution cipher.

JUDGE (inspecting evidence): What's this plastic thing?
MUELLER: That, Your Honor, is a Captain Midnight Decoder Badge.
posted by rifflesby at 1:22 AM on November 14, 2017 [35 favorites]


"Everyone" in that sentence was meant as a stalking horse for 'the really rich or powerful.' Turns out, jokes on me! There is no oligarchical star-room overseeing the propulsion of USA to the forefront. No one is actually at the helm!

Alternatively, democracy actually accomplished something: it was a reliable enough variable to be counted on to deliver an outcome within a predictable range in the designs of the powers that be. But the right broke democracy in the course of constructing a propaganda machine (and conditioning their base to respond to it) that would enable absolutely any candidate get elected.
posted by XMLicious at 1:36 AM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


His major announcement is something Roy Moore related. Or he made a poopy. Or the East Room is now a McDonald's Express.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 3:37 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Let's drop the Trump pre-announcement threadfiller jokes at the point, please and thank you.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:42 AM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


@alanhe (CBS)
Mike Pence to Hugh Hewitt 7/29/16: "If it is found that Russia or China or any other foreign power compromised the private email, or capture classified information, and then released that information through the Wikileaks or otherwise, there’d be serious consequences for that."
posted by chris24 at 4:12 AM on November 14, 2017 [35 favorites]


(Remember Carter Page?)
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:15 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


@realDonaldTrump I will be making a major statement from the @WhiteHouse upon my return to D.C. Time and date to be set.

He's gonna fire Mueller, isn't he? I know he can't directly, but I'm sure he doesn't care. It was always only a matter of time.

It's always the worst thing.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:19 AM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


Add Britain performing seppuku with Brexit and it's like Russia actually won the Cold War.

Well, given how the Confederacy won the long, guerilla second phase of the American Civil War, that would be par for the course in this timeline.
posted by acb at 4:33 AM on November 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


President Trump has made 1,628 false or misleading claims over 298 days (Glenn Kessler, Meg Kelly and Nicole Lewis, WaPo). Many are repeats or variations. In the last 35 days, he's averaged 9 misleading claims.
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:03 AM on November 14, 2017 [21 favorites]


For the Donny doesn't care about polls debate: He's bragging about a Rasmussen poll (big Republican lean) that shows him at 46% approve - 53% disapprove. Simply because it's not as catastrophic as all the rest for the last 6 months.

@realDonaldTrump
One of the most accurate polls last time around. But #FakeNews likes to say we’re in the 30’s. They are wrong. Some people think numbers could be in the 50's. Together, WE will MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! - GRAPHIC
posted by chris24 at 5:13 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Jesus this fuckery is why he ditched the trip early?
posted by angrycat at 5:14 AM on November 14, 2017


Jesus this fuckery is why he ditched the trip early?

i imagine he's exhausted and cranky and they're having trouble corralling him.
posted by halation at 5:20 AM on November 14, 2017 [29 favorites]


His remarks seem normal enough, if generally devoid of content and buddying up with Duterte is normal enough, but he's just ditching out on the end of the summit? I'm officially concerned.

It's because it was delayed 2 hours and low-stamina Trump couldn't handle it.

Guardian: Donald Trump skips East Asia Summit on final day of 12-day tour
Donald Trump has ended a marathon trip to Asia by skipping an international summit after the event was delayed by about two hours.

The White House had added the East Asia Summit, an annual meeting of more than a dozen countries, to the president’s schedule after concerns were raised that missing it might signify a lack of US interest in Asia.

However, after a gruelling 12-day trip across five countries, Trump opted to get on Air Force One and fly back to Washington. His flight left more than 30 minutes earlier than planned and he also missed a group photo with other world leaders. [...]

Annelise Riles, a professor of far east legal studies and anthropology at Cornell University, said Trump did not fulfil his agenda in Asia. “Historians will date this trip as a key moment in the decline of US power in the Asia-Pacific region, when Asian leaders stepped up and took the reins,” she said.

She pointed to the deal made on Saturday by leading Pacific Rim countries to salvage a trade pact without US involvement after Trump abandoned it it in one of his first acts in office.

The president warned the same day against “large agreements that tie our hands” and said he would focus on country to country agreements.

But Riles said “Asian leaders largely ignored the Trump administration’s efforts to squash the Trans-Pacific Partnership and pledged to forge ahead on their own.

“Despite all the red carpet, Trump’s own agenda was largely ignored.”
posted by chris24 at 5:23 AM on November 14, 2017 [65 favorites]


The guy can get legal advice from any scholar or experienced practitioner in the world, and he chooses Jeanine Pirro.

TV's a hell of a drug.

Seriously. Boggle at the bottomlessness of THAT'S THE REASON. It also explains Reagan and Bush II pretty well, but both of them made use of the country's legal and intelligence assets. For evil, yeah, but still.

One of the things I'm learning about Das Trümpers is their relationship to TV in particular is, wack. Or out of whack, anyway. A recent continental shift, if you will. Maybe less than 8 years old.
posted by petebest at 5:37 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


So the Russian Ministry of Defence is tweeting about the US supporting ISIS convoys using doctored screenshots from video games.
posted by PenDevil at 5:51 AM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


No doctor. You're a doctor!
posted by thelonius at 5:53 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


gosh my twitter feed is all RAGE over the fresh things and then Matthew Yglesias quietly tweets, "I still want to know what happened with Paul and his neighbor," which had this comic feeling of let's return to lighter moments where violence occurred over shrubbery
posted by angrycat at 5:56 AM on November 14, 2017 [28 favorites]


zachlipton: "Or we can fill up this thread with hundreds of comments speculating."

More likely: 50% pointless speculating, 50% not particularly funny jokes.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:57 AM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


when i was like 7 years old and wanted to stay up late to watch miami vice i took a yellow legal pad from my mom's office and carefully cut off the bottom 2 inches of the first page, leaving room for a signature line at the bottom like so X_______________

the top portion of the second page, cleverly concealed by the first, had a list of my demands, which my foolish parents would certainly sign thus contractually binding them to my new bedtime of whenever i wanted and also giving me a pony

tl;dr trump would definitely fall for this

someone write I DID A TREASON on a legal pad pls

That's pretty much how Armando Iannucci got OJ Simpson to sign a confession.
posted by kersplunk at 6:00 AM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


Hmm. An early departure from the big Asia trip?
A lot of people said it’s almost physically impossible for someone to go through 12 days.
Hey, 11 out of 12 is pretty good, though, everyone agrees.
posted by notyou at 6:04 AM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


@ppppolls (PublicPolicyPolling, 538 rated B+)
About to retweet @AliLapp on a bunch of new House polls we did last week for @PatriotMajority that show big momentum for Dems next year

@AliLapp (President of House Majority PAC, board of Nat'l Dem Redistricting Committee)
Dana Rohrabacher losing by 10 points to a Democratic opponent, 41% to 51%, in CA-48 (Orange County). Ryan at 28/63 and Trump at 44/54.
- In FL-26, Carlos Curbelo is losing 39/53 to a Democratic opponent. Trump at 37/59, Ryan at 28/63. This is South Florida, heavily Hispanic CD.
- In IL-06 (suburban Chicago) Peter Roskam hasn’t had a tough race in a decade. Luck’s run out for him, as he is down 41/51 to a Democratic opponent. Trump underwater 38/57.
- In MI-06, Upton up only 1 to a generic Democrat, 42/41. Trump at 41/54, Ryan even worse at 26/61.
- Dean Phillips is defeating Erik Paulsen 46/42 in MN-03, a suburban Minneapolis CD. Trump: 41/55, Ryan: 31/63.
- In NE-02, former Congressman Brad Ashford is leading the man who beat him in 16, Don Bacon, 49% to 40%. Trump at 42/54; Ryan at 28/62.
- In NJ-07, Rep. Leonard Lance is down 1 to a Democratic opponent, 42/41. Trump: 43/55, and Ryan is at 26/66.
- Rep. Frelinghuysen losing to a Democrat 46/44 in NJ-11. Trump is at 43/52 and Ryan is even worse – 27/66.
- Rep. John Faso is losing to a Democrat 46/40 in NY-19. Trump’s at 44/53 and Ryan is at 25/67.
- In an Upstate NY district Trump carried by double digits (NY-22), GOP incumbent Claudia Tenney is losing to Democrat Anthony Brindisi 47/41.
- In TX-07 (suburban Houston), Rep. Culberson at 39, Democratic opponent at 49. Trump at 37/59 and Ryan at 39/65.
- In TX-32 (suburban Dallas), Rep. Pete Sessions behind a Democratic opponent 43% to 48%. Trump at 39/58, Ryan at 27/66.
- In CA-25 (LA/Ventura Co), Steve Knight is losing to a Democratic opponent 38%-50%. Ryan and Trump wildly unpopular, at 23/66 and 40/58 respectively.
- **Conclusion**: tax reform is not gonna save these guys. VA and NJ not a fluke – the suburbs are fleeing the GOP. Democrats completely holding their own even in Trump CDs.
- Big picture, all these Republicans will pay a political price for supporting GOP tax bill. It’s unpopular and voters are less likely to support a GOPer who votes for it.
posted by chris24 at 6:05 AM on November 14, 2017 [66 favorites]


Hah. Those suburban GOP reps are trapped between a Trump and a Tax Bill.
posted by notyou at 6:10 AM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


Dana Rohrabacher losing by 10 points to a Democratic opponent, 41% to 51%, in CA-48 (Orange County)

JFC that is an accomplishment.

One of the more startling things about the election last year. On Balboa Island there were a startling amount of Hillary signs up, and I no more than 3 or 4 Trump signs there. This was around the time of the "you're the puppet" debate.

So I hope that polling is accurate.
posted by Twain Device at 6:15 AM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


So only 11 of 12? I guess we shouldn't have been so quick to pull our bets from the table after all?
posted by Fezboy! at 6:15 AM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


Usual caveats (it's a year out, those are requisitioned polls, mostly "generic Dem" rather than a person with actual flaws), but nonetheless, those are very positive numbers for the Dems.

We need to pick off some Trump districts to take the House, this is a good start.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:22 AM on November 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


Hey guys! Today is, well probably tomorrow, in your time. But in Australia it is Wednesday already (hi from the future!) and in a few hours we will find out the results of the same sex marriage plebiscite. Many Australians are going to party today. Cortex, get your rainbow flag ready. We all voted for love.
posted by adept256 at 6:29 AM on November 14, 2017 [55 favorites]


He was gently encouraged to nap, though aides said it was unclear how much he’d actually slept.

Translation: El Presidente Cheeto is on downers.
posted by PenDevil at 6:30 AM on November 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


- Big picture, all these Republicans will pay a political price for supporting GOP tax bill. It’s unpopular and voters are less likely to support a GOPer who votes for it.

If you're a vulnerable GOP rep from a purple state, why vote for a tax bill that will hurt your constituents and your reelection chances? It's not like Paul Ryan has any significant power, and he'll likely lose leadership in a year when they get kicked into the minority.

If you vote against it, at the very least you can make a claim that you're standing up for the middle class.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:31 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


...and that he could tweet even in China, where Twitter is banned for locals.

If you know anything about China, that means his phone has been almost certainly compromised unless he was given a burner, which I'm sure he wasn't because his staff are morons.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:33 AM on November 14, 2017 [49 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump
One of the most accurate polls last time around. But #FakeNews likes to say we’re in the 30’s. They are wrong. Some people think numbers could be in the 50's. Together, WE will MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! - GRAPHIC
I'm 90% sure there's going to be no peaceful transition of power on the back of 2020.
posted by Talez at 6:35 AM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


We’ve seen some suburban GOP reps opine against the Tax Bill (NJ and NY), but the CA Reps were all in favor of it. Until VA happened. Then Issa came out firmly against and Retograde Rohrabacher slid all the way back to, paraphrasing, monitoring the entire process and not in favor of raising taxes on his constituents.

I think if this keeps up Dana may just decide to retire to his Dacha.
posted by notyou at 6:39 AM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


...and that he could tweet even in China, where Twitter is banned for locals.

Anyone can access Twitter et al with a non-Chinese sim card (I, a lowly plebeian, googled there regularly using my T-Mo with free int'l data roaming sim a few years ago), and most of the fancy hotels do something or another -- run their whole network through a VPN? -- that allows you to access Google and anything else ordinarily behind the great firewall. This isn't to say that the traffic's not monitored; of course it probably is, but most middle class Chinese know how to get around firewall restrictions. Whether they have the time/money/need to do so is another story.
posted by tapir-whorf at 6:40 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


The "bet" thing is so weird because as far as I can tell, Trump himself is the only one to have mentioned it publicly?

I can almost imagine there was one aide, imagining that Trump's childishness to be a liberal-media myth, who joked "Be good, Mr President, I have a bet that you'll make it 12 days!" and Donald took it 100% seriously. I'm not sure how else word of such a bet would reach him, besides naivety. Unless the bet was made with Donald himself as a bribe.

leotrotsky :
...and that he could tweet even in China, where Twitter is banned for locals.
If you know anything about China, that means his phone has been almost certainly compromised unless he was given a burner, which I'm sure he wasn't because his staff are morons.
I trust that the phone's existing Russian malware can work out a sharing arrangement with incoming Chinese programs.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:43 AM on November 14, 2017 [29 favorites]


...and that he could tweet even in China, where Twitter is banned for locals.

I would think (at least I fricking hope so) that any secure device that Trump uses never touches Chinese network infrastructure , VPN or not, and they use some US DoD satellite communications network.
posted by PenDevil at 6:46 AM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


I trust that the phone's existing Russian malware can work out a sharing arrangement with incoming Chinese programs.

I picture them fighting each other and ironically making the phone more secure, like Mr. Burns at the Mayo Clinic.
posted by Freon at 6:47 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


I would think (at least I fricking hope so) that any secure device that Trump uses never touches Chinese network infrastructure , VPN or not, and they use some US DoD satellite communications network.
Counterpoint: These people are fucking idiots
posted by fullerine at 6:48 AM on November 14, 2017 [47 favorites]


Counterpoint: These people are fucking idiots

I'm not disagreeing, somehow the scenario of some random assistant to Dan Scavino asking their Chinese counterpart for the WiFi password while John Kelly sprints across the room shouting "Put the phone down!" seems depressingly likely.
posted by PenDevil at 6:51 AM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


I'm 90% sure there's going to be no peaceful transition of power on the back of 2020.

The goal is to make sure he isn't president in 2020. If Mueller has enough to convict, the Democrats can take the House, and they're able to take enough seats in Congress that they can cut a deal on impeachment with Republicans who've had enough of Trump, we'll be dealing with Pence, who is an awful human being but at least he'll leave when he's voted out.

Re: Australian same-sex marriage, it's looking like turnout (such as it is) is around 89%, which is pretty fucking high for a voluntary poll that wasn't necessary and should never have happened, and proving the worst part of Australia democracy is the clowns we have to vote for. Polls suggest that the yes vote is romping home. A member of the conservative party who's had enough of his party fucking around on this issue has a bill ready to go, and it has the numbers to pass.
posted by Merus at 6:53 AM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


The Australia stuff needs its own thread
posted by aiglet at 6:55 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Meanwhile, John Kelly is officially done with Trump's Twitter, as of last Sunday.
"Someone, I read the other day, said we all just react to the tweets," said Chief of Staff John F. Kelly, speaking with a group of reporters after a presidential news conference Sunday in Vietnam. "We don’t. I don’t. I don’t allow the staff to. We know what we’re doing.”

Kelly said, "Believe it or not, I do not follow the tweets.”

“I find out about them," he continued. "But for our purposes, my purpose, is we make sure the president is briefed up on what he’s about to do."

Referring to Trump's tweets, Kelly said, "They are what they are."
Never mind Trump's lack of stamina on this trip, Kelly sounds so very, very tired.
posted by Doktor Zed at 6:59 AM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


I freely admit that I was fooled by Assange for a long time, even after I thought he was a rapist sleaze.

I have to say thank fuck we are all acknowledging that now.
posted by Artw at 7:00 AM on November 14, 2017 [25 favorites]


"As the White House Chief of Staff, I don't think it is very important at all to maintain an awareness of what the President is messaging in his public communications. I'll probably hear about it one way or another anyway." - John Kelly, basically
posted by solotoro at 7:04 AM on November 14, 2017 [56 favorites]


leotrotsky He's gonna fire Mueller, isn't he? I know he can't directly, but I'm sure he doesn't care. It was always only a matter of time.

Much as I tend to take the pessimistic view, I'm doubtful that Trump's teased "major announcement" (if it ever happens at all, remember that he loves attention and often teases things that don't actually happen), will be firing Mueller.

Not that Trump doesn't want to, and probably will at some point, but it wouldn't fit his usual behavior about firing people. For all that he loved his image on The Apprentice shouting "YOU'RE FIRED!" at people, we've seen during both his campaign and presidency that he really doesn't like firing people and tends to do it in a secretive and low key sort of way. Mostly he tends to fire people when they're nowhere near him, he does it after a lot of hemming and hawing and public dissing of the person, he does it through a third party, and he personally doesn't get up on TV and do it or even really talk about it after it's happened.

So I doubt he'll be calling a major press conference to fire Mueller. He might do it to lay the groundwork for firing Mueller, I wouldn't be surprised if he called a press conference to lambaste Mueller and re-emphasize the "red line" around his family's finances that he imagines he can draw, and generally to do his best to discredit Mueller.

Or it might be a presser about Roy Moore.

Or it might just never happen because he tends to promise lots of things that never happen.

But the odds of Trump calling a major press conference to fire Mueller are very low.
posted by sotonohito at 7:09 AM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


Never mind Trump's lack of stamina on this trip, Kelly sounds so very, very tired.
Kelly should fucking suffer until he can't take it any more. And then he should be ignominiously insulted by Trump while being fired. And then he should return home and find that polite society knows what kind of person he has been. And finally he should realize what kind of person he has been.

I don't hold out a lot of hope for all of that happening but it should. I don't have much use for John Kelly.
posted by Nerd of the North at 7:10 AM on November 14, 2017 [70 favorites]


Counterpoint: These people are fucking idiots

Srsly. Like, I can't compartmentalize that bit about "making sure he could still tweet". What. There- . . . The Internet . . . DARPA was crea- . . the WHOLE thing is ab*grunt* . . Air Force One has, the . . . BWLHwahghahwah!!

*takes over for fellow MeFite headdesking*
posted by petebest at 7:12 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


Alexandra Erin has been great at noting the ways the various members of the White House not only distance themselves from Trump, but distance Trump himself from his own outbursts. She calls it the "conceptual presidency" (thread). In short, what John " I do not follow the tweets" Kelly, Paul "I pretend not to read the tweets" Ryan, and Sarah "Huckabee" Sanders really, really want us to believe is that some unhinged former reality star with funny hair absolutely does not speak for the esteemed Donald Trump, President of the United States.

And I think there's a part of all our brains for which that sort of "works", because the right wing has been so bonkers for long enough to wear us down. I've been musing for a while that even Republicans kind of acknowledge the framing whereby Democrats are the adults in the room. But they want us to use that framing so it becomes a bigger deal if Hillary lies once or twice than if Trump staff two hundred times daily, for the same reason people get mad at parents even if their children are the ones running around the grocery store making a mess. (Yet we're apparently supposed to accept those children having the reins of power...)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:15 AM on November 14, 2017 [39 favorites]


PBS Newshour link to Sessions in front of House Judiciary right now
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:17 AM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


Direct link to live PBS News Hour feed on YouTube
posted by filthy light thief at 7:20 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


I have to say thank fuck we are all acknowledging that now.

artw, I am from Queensland, Australia. I met Julian 25 years ago.
posted by adept256 at 7:23 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


I hope that Jeff Sessions wakes up every night for the rest of his life with the Giant Floating Head of Jeanine Pirro over his bed, broadcasting a shrieking diatribe directly into his brain about how he has betrayed Donald Trump.

And all Sessions will be able to do, as he clutches a pillow over his head ineffectually, is mumble I did this to myself.

I hope for a similar apparition to haunt Stephen Miller, except that the head and voice will be that of Gilbert Gottfried.
posted by delfin at 7:26 AM on November 14, 2017 [34 favorites]


He might do it to lay the groundwork for firing Mueller

You think that dumb lazy-ass motherfucker lays groundwork?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:30 AM on November 14, 2017 [20 favorites]


I wonder if this is the point where he announces a special prosecutor to go after Hillary.
posted by Talez at 7:30 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


If you know anything about China, that means his phone has been almost certainly compromised unless he was given a burner, which I'm sure he wasn't because his staff are morons.

Trump's tweets over the past few days have been posted from cities including Dallas & Philadelphia. I expect American rather than Chinese spooks are responsible.
posted by scalefree at 7:32 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


I wonder if this is the point where he announces a special prosecutor to go after Hillary.

The 1st anniversary Women's Marches would be EPIC.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:33 AM on November 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


It's true: violent crime rates are up for two years, from an all-time low in 2014, and similarly 2014 was a low point for the national murder rate.

Sessions also talks about the number of police killed in the line of fire, but nothing about violence perpetrated by police, which is no surprise at all. A quick reference point: so far in 2017, there have only been 10 days when someone was not killed by police in the US.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:33 AM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


I've been musing for a while that even Republicans kind of acknowledge the framing whereby Democrats are the adults in the room.

Like Mitch McConnell's "How could Obama let us override his veto on this legislation!" bit from a couple of years ago
posted by leotrotsky at 7:33 AM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


Sessions going for the senility defense.
posted by Talez at 7:35 AM on November 14, 2017


Sessions rn: Carter Page who?
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:36 AM on November 14, 2017


Sessions: "my answers have not changed" -- "frankly, I had no recollection of this meeting [with Papadopolus] until I read his account" (paraphrased). How can you expect him to recall something eighteen months before being questioned, even when he refuted suggestions to work with the Russians? He was just so busy then! So many meetings! So many people! So many dates! Saying he is a liar is a lie!
posted by filthy light thief at 7:37 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Shorter Jeff Sessions.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:37 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


His defense is that the presidential campaign was — and I quote — “crazy.” Denies (with great southern umbrage) ever having lied.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 7:37 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


And I thought Carmen Lawrence was the epitome of selective amnesia.

Also, Sessions you poor dear, 20 hours of testifying this year. Hillary did that in two days.
posted by Talez at 7:38 AM on November 14, 2017 [34 favorites]


artw, I am from Queensland, Australia. I met Julian 25 years ago.

I've known him about that long, have a couple friends who can add another 5 years to that plus one who was his roommate for a while.
posted by scalefree at 7:38 AM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


Chariman Goodlatte: "Tell me how awesome you are about the increased rate of persecuting use of fire arms, especially as compared to Obama?" Because this was a question no one was asking.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:39 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Wow, Sessions is real mad. That was fun to watch. The softball "Some people say you're the most handsome and interesting man alive, how would you respond to that?" question, less so.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:40 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HILLARY FUCKING CLINTON AND LORETTA FUCKING LYNCH YOU FUCKING FUCKSTICK.

HE DOESN'T EVEN GO HERE.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:40 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


If Hillary is watching this I hope she's in a comfy robe and slippers, holding a glass of scotch, and laughing her ass off.
posted by Talez at 7:41 AM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


It's a good thing Goodlatte is retiring after this term because he's a god damn embarrassment to the people of Virginia.
posted by Talez at 7:43 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


If Hillary is watching this I hope she's in a comfy robe and slippers, holding a glass of scotch, and laughing her ass off.

OMG I hope she's not watching this. In my mind she's watching The Little Hours in a comfy robe and slippers, holding a glass of scotch, and laughing her ass off.
posted by carsonb at 7:43 AM on November 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


scalefree: Trump's tweets over the past few days have been posted from cities including Dallas & Philadelphia. I expect American rather than Chinese spooks are responsible.

Isn't that just as likely due to the other handlers who have access to his account so they can make "presidential" tweets?
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:45 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Conyers reading (gravelly voice) so-called 'tweets' and Sessions answering in TV soundbytes is really maddening.
posted by carsonb at 7:45 AM on November 14, 2017


Rep Conyers reading Trump Tweets to Sessions is the best thing yet today
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:45 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'm leaving for a root canal in a few minutes. And ya know what? It's a better option than listening to Jefferson Davis Keebler lie while our entire premise of government fails. Fuck this noise.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:46 AM on November 14, 2017 [33 favorites]


Conyers: So that's a "No?"
posted by leotrotsky at 7:46 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Sessions: leaks have reached a level of epidemic proportions, and we're pursuing them vigorously. And illegal immigration is also a serious issue.

Such a nice round of back-patting from Goodlatte and Sessions! I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

But John Conyers (D-MI) is comparing Trump to Nixon, noting Nixon "had the courtesy to [go after people] behind closed doors." And "it would be easier if you just answered yes or no" after Sessions does a tap-dance around issues raised. Fuck yes, Conyers!
posted by filthy light thief at 7:47 AM on November 14, 2017 [30 favorites]


How can a President properly influence a pending criminal investigation, Jeff?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:47 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


This is just embarrassing. Conyers is basically making a prima facie case for any prosecution of Hillary to be political revenge and Sessions is saying with a straight face that he's not doing anything like that.
posted by Talez at 7:48 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


Conyers is the man.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 7:48 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Seems like having someone who can't remember conversations that happened 18 months ago as the top prosecutor in the nation would be a problem. It's not like being US Attorney needs to remember any details, right?
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:50 AM on November 14, 2017 [31 favorites]


It's true: violent crime rates are up for two years

It's worth remembering that the DOJ, as well as many state and local law enforcement agencies, changed their reporting standards in the last decade, which means that the crime rate may reflect as much increased reporting as increases in actual crime, if not more. This is especially true in the case of sexual assault and abuse, which had a major expansion in scope at the federal level in 2012. Which, FYI, came almost exactly a year after the GOP caucuses tried to limit it to the actions that would make people like Todd Akin happy, with Paul Ryan leading the charge.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:50 AM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


Isn't that just as likely due to the other handlers who have access to his account so they can make "presidential" tweets?

Sure that's possible but Philadelphia & Dallas seem like odd places to be while your boss is in the Philippines.
posted by scalefree at 7:52 AM on November 14, 2017


Rep Nadler is on fire getting yes/no answers on Sessions perjuring himself.
posted by carsonb at 7:57 AM on November 14, 2017 [18 favorites]


Fuck yes, Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), holding Sessions to clear Yes or No answers. Unfortunately, there's still the option to say "I don't recall."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:57 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


I wouldn't have said that a major problem in our nation's financial system is that payday lenders can't charge high enough interest rate, but I guess Mark Warner disagrees. Oh wait, sorry, I guess this is about "innovation" that would "encourage access to credit for low and middle income Americans", or at least the ones who really, truly want a 400% interest rates and fees higher than the principal of the loan.

It would rule if one of the precious few issues with broad bipartisan support weren't defense of the payday loan industry.
posted by Copronymus at 7:58 AM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


Jerrold Nadler cross examining like a boss. Making good use of his time. This is a time where it's good that New Yorkers talk fast.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:58 AM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


Look for Sessions having contact with others re: Russian influence after the March 31st meeting, because he just said he doesn't know about anything of the sort.

Also, Sessions did not bring the March 31st meeting items up with FBI or other appropriate parties, but he might have talked with others in congress, because that's when he went all wobbly.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:00 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


I like that Sessions' answers to the "did anyone talk the FBI" questions were "No, No, No, ...eehhhh"

With the "...eehhhh" being on, "did any members of congress talk to the FBI?" That's potentially interesting.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:01 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


“Despite all the red carpet, Trump’s own agenda was largely ignored.”

Well, of course it was. Everyone knows by now what an idiot he is.

You think that dumb lazy-ass motherfucker lays groundwork?

No, but his puppet masters do.
posted by Melismata at 8:03 AM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


OMG the marijuana question, from Rep Chabot.

"Our policy is, really the same fundamentally as the Holder/Lynch policy."
posted by carsonb at 8:04 AM on November 14, 2017


Steve Chabot: "Why can't we kill people faster?"
posted by Talez at 8:05 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


There's also a Senate hearing on the President's power to blow up the planet & maybe changing that.
posted by scalefree at 8:05 AM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


chris24: "- Rep. Frelinghuysen losing to a Democrat 46/44 in NJ-11. Trump is at 43/52 and Ryan is even worse – 27/66."

This is Chris Christie's home district, FYI (which also contains my hometown).

Never thought I'd see Frelinghuysen unseated by a Democrat. Even during Democratic "wave" years, Frelinghuysen has kept a very safe hold on his seat. If Frelinghuysen loses, it's a very bad sign for suburban Republicans.

Now, we just need to get left-leaning NJ voters out to the polls. The Republicans were so thoroughly guaranteed to lose the governor's race that a lot of folks probably stayed home, which led to the Democrats having underwhelming results elsewhere.
posted by schmod at 8:06 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


could we keep the live-blog stuff in chat? these threads are already bringing my phone to its knees.
posted by Old Kentucky Shark at 8:08 AM on November 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


The goal is to make sure he isn't president in 2020. If Mueller has enough to convict, the Democrats can take the House, and they're able to take enough seats in Congress that they can cut a deal on impeachment with Republicans who've had enough of Trump, we'll be dealing with Pence, who is an awful human being but at least he'll leave when he's voted out.

Pence is tangled up in all this too. Here's my fanfic: Dems retake Congress in a big way in 2018, we get a Dem Speaker, impeach both Trump/Pence, the Speaker is the new president, the Dems give us fully automated luxury gay space communism by 2020, and we all live happily ever after.

(shut up, it could happen)
posted by entropicamericana at 8:09 AM on November 14, 2017 [33 favorites]


Sorry I'm late to the party, but that WaPo article about Trump in Asia is maddening. How can the people of the US accept having a president who is acting and treated like a spoiled toddler????????
He is at work, he needs to do his job. For a huge majority of humans in the world, not doing your job means you get fired. Heck, a lot of people get fired even when they do their job the best they can. How can this orange baby get away with doing nothing?
posted by mumimor at 8:11 AM on November 14, 2017 [55 favorites]


He's never worked a single day in a job as you or I would understand it in his entire life.
posted by Artw at 8:13 AM on November 14, 2017 [36 favorites]


From that WaPo article:
Trump warmed to the itinerary as it approached, growing fond of noting aloud how long it was, according to four White House officials and outside advisers. He remarked more than once to aides that he was “setting a record.”
Ah, now I get it.
posted by Melismata at 8:15 AM on November 14, 2017 [33 favorites]


Greg Sargent: A special counsel to probe Clinton? That puts us in very dangerous territory. (emphasis in original)
The reason [the letter from the DOJ] matters: It could become the latest act of enabling Trump in his ongoing obliteration of norms and institutional lines. Trump demanded the loyalty of his FBI director, then fired him when that loyalty was not forthcoming, admitting this was due to anger over the Russia investigation. He raged at his attorney general for failing to protect him from that probe and has seriously mulled an effort to remove special counsel Robert S. Mueller III. Congressional Republicans have not done nearly enough to signal that such a move would be met with a forceful response. Yet those same Republicans are actively helping Trump muddy the waters around that probe by launching their own investigations into the bogus Clinton scandals, and, now, by prevailing on the attorney general to go too far in using prosecutorial resources to validate those story lines.

It’s also worth entertaining what might happen even if the Justice Department concluded that the fake scandals don’t merit a special counsel. As I’ve argued, Trump’s media allies are actively trying to goad him into going full authoritarian against the Mueller probe by using these invented story lines to cast Mueller and the investigation as corrupt and illegitimate and by hammering the narrative that this has created a crisis in this country that leaves Trump no alternative but to close it down.

We don’t know if Trump will end up going full authoritarian or not. But if the department does decline to go the special counsel route, is there any reason to believe Trump would accept this? Instead, it may well torque Trump into a state of rage and grievance over how unfair and illegitimate it is that Clinton isn’t being probed, while his campaign continues to be targeted by an investigation that he claims is nothing but a hoax. That’s exactly what his allies hope will tip him into acting against Mueller. It’s hard to see how this ends well.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:17 AM on November 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


Pence is tangled up in all this too. Here's my fanfic: Dems retake Congress in a big way in 2018, we get a Dem Speaker, impeach both Trump/Pence, the Speaker is the new president, the Dems give us fully automated luxury gay space communism by 2020, and we all live happily ever after.

If I could say "President San Francisco Liberal Nancy" I'd die happy.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:18 AM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


Dems retake Congress in a big way in 2018

2/3 in the Senate is not happening.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:18 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


GCU Sweet and Full of Grace You think that dumb lazy-ass motherfucker lays groundwork?

When it comes to firing people? Yes.

Call it groundwork, call it working himself up to it, call it whatever you want, we've seen enough of Trump and firing people to know how he does it, and he doesn't do it in a splashy press conference.

For whatever reason, firing people causes Trump distress and it takes him a while to work his way up to actually firing someone. He starts by a weird combination of praising and badmouthing the person he intends to fire, denying that he plans to fire them, and eventually, after a couple of weeks of that, the person finds out that they've been fired because a third party (not Trump, never Trump personally) tells the news that they've been fired and the person being fired learns about it by seeing it on TV.

It's weird, it doesn't go with our image of Trump as the vindictive asshole we know him to be, but he does seem to need to psych himself up for weeks before he can actually fire someone. Call it groundwork, call it whatever, it doesn't happen quickly.
posted by sotonohito at 8:21 AM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


This is my shocked face.

@nataliewsj:
CEOs asked if they plan to increase investment if the GOP's tax bill goes through. A smattering of hands goes up.
"Why aren't the other hands up?" Cohn asks.
#WSJCEOCouncil
posted by chris24 at 8:25 AM on November 14, 2017 [47 favorites]


He is at work, he needs to do his job.

HA! Wow. I can't ever remember that even being an option. Well, I guess the glowing-orb photo was work, of a sort.
posted by petebest at 8:27 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


2/3 in the Senate is not happening.

How can anyone express this degree of certainty about anything right now? I agree it's unlikely that Dems will win enough seats for a 2/3 party line majority, but the Republican party might well be fracturing into bits before our eyes. Might it not come to pass that a Dem wave results in a D majority, which then forms a coalition with some Rs who are clawing for any flotation device within reach in the face of mounting evidence against their president and the accelerating deterioration of their caucus? It's not the likeliest outcome, but is it really impossible?
posted by contraption at 8:33 AM on November 14, 2017 [25 favorites]


CEOs asked if they plan to increase investment if the GOP's tax bill goes through. A smattering of hands goes up.

Do they not teach "Don't ask a question if you don't know the answer in advance." at Goldman?
posted by leotrotsky at 8:33 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


It's not the likeliest outcome, but is it really impossible?

Depending on the 2018 elections, you'd need to flip about 25 Republican senators. I wouldn't call it impossible, but damn near.

Of course, things change.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:38 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Representative Jordan really doing his best to smear Comey and then Mueller in this hearing. Interestingly sparring more with Sessions than any other republican thus far. He's questioning if there will be a second Special Council.

Sessions tells him that he doesn't think there's enough solid evidence to appoint a second Special Council.

Any amount of R's sparring with the administration is a win in my book.
posted by Twain Device at 8:42 AM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


chris24: CEOs asked if they plan to increase investment if the GOP's tax bill goes through. A smattering of hands goes up. "Why aren't the other hands up?" Cohn asks.

Why? Huh, let's see: The average CEO earned 20 times the average worker pay in 1965. Now S&P 500 CEOs make 335 times the pay of their average employee. "Now" being back in June 2016. As AFL-CIO puts it on their paywatch website, "more for them, less for us."
posted by filthy light thief at 8:52 AM on November 14, 2017 [25 favorites]


you'd need to flip about 25 Republican senators

As the senate is currently constituted, you'd only need 20. And last time I looked at the math I came up with 10 I thought were real possibilities, at least if a damning Mueller report came out... In roughly descending order of likelihood: Corker, McCain, Flake, Murkowski, Collins, Moore-Capito, Rubio, Graham, Burr, Grassley (he has actually let the judiciary committee ask some hard questions about Russia). If Orrin Hatch announces his retirement I could see him being on board too.

I think it is possible that we could find 8 or 9 more if Mueller digs up the right kind of dirt, and if Republicans keep suffering politically. Who else has Trump insulted on Twitter? Which way does that rapscallion Rand Paul see the wind blowing? How bad is this McConnell-Trump feud going to get?
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:53 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


I agree it's unlikely that Dems will win enough seats for a 2/3 party line majority, but the Republican party might well be fracturing into bits before our eyes.

Whatever happens in the House, It's impossible in the Senate. You'd need to find 10+ Republicans willing to go and that's just not happening.

I'd be happy to be wrong, but I just can't see a future where that could happen.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:56 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


i shudder to think what the extinction burst of the republican party will look like if things get bad enough for them to lose the senate
posted by murphy slaw at 8:57 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


As the senate is currently constituted, you'd only need 20.

You're right. For some reason I did the math for 3/4, not 2/3.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:58 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Gotta factor in for all the Feinsteins etc...
posted by Artw at 9:01 AM on November 14, 2017


Jordan is unsurprising. He and Rep. Mike Gates (R - Florida Man) were on Hannity last night as designated Help Me Talk About Anything Other Than Roy Moore guests, and happily burbled about Hillary's many proven crimes and Her Emails and Her Perjury and Her Obstruction of Justice and the Terrible Uraniumgate and the Corrupt Clinton Foundation. But he also laid into Sessions LOUDLY for not doing his job for months in that he hadn't been actively investigating all of the above.
posted by delfin at 9:02 AM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


And regarding the potential for impeachment and the congressional outlook in 2018: remember that the GOP can't maintain unity to push through widely controversial health care overhaul or tax "reforms" when they have a simple majority, and in the latter support is faltering more and more as public pressure mounts against their party's plan. I other words, it's a lot easier to do the right thing when public opinion is behind you. Republican support flipped against Nixon with the release of the transcript of the "smoking gun tape."
posted by filthy light thief at 9:03 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


Neal Katyal: "I drafted the Special Counsel regs. They require a "conflict of interest for the Dept or other extraordinary circumstances" I look fwd to learning what possible conflict of interest there is.AG Sessions boss Trump calling for a Spcl Counsel doesnt cut it."
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:03 AM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


Gotta factor in for all the Feinsteins etc...

Feinstein is on the side of the intelligence community and very much not on Russia's side. She'll vote for impeachment in a heartbeat if Mueller comes out with something terrible.

There is no way there will be an impeachment vote before the Mueller report comes out. So when you are counting votes, you have to make some assumptions about what will be in that report, and when it will come out. My assumptions are "just before the 2018 elections" and "the most damning possible evidence against Trump."
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:05 AM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


the GOP is mostly using this hearing as an undisguised propaganda outlet but i do enjoy that it's playing out as a bipartisan episode of Everybody Hates Jeff
posted by murphy slaw at 9:05 AM on November 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


It's weird, it doesn't go with our image of Trump as the vindictive asshole we know him to be, but he does seem to need to psych himself up for weeks before he can actually fire someone.

He's just a paper tiger, and "our" image of him is the image he so desperately needs us to believe. But that's not him: Trump is still a scared little boy, acting out bravado and dominance games moment-to-moment for--I expect--nearly every waking moment of his entire life, futilely trying to feed the gaping maw of solipsistic demand created by the utterly consuming fear and desperation of his narcissism.*

That's why he avoids actual confrontation at any cost, and is all bluster and 'acting tough.' Truly, anyone with the basic savvy to read Trump's own self-conception can exploit the shit out of this psychologically (and cognitively, frankly) broken and terrified person--and I have little doubt that's exactly what Russian efforts to bribe, blackmail, extort, etc. him will have as a through-line, basic manipulation of his personality disorder(s).

*(It must be pretty horrible, actually, to experience life that way. Not that I have any sympathy for this asshole, he's completely responsible for what he's doing to all of us. I just wish that little boy DJT would have encountered someone with greater empathy and compassion at some point, who could've had better influence on him. For him and for the rest of us.)
posted by LooseFilter at 9:08 AM on November 14, 2017 [40 favorites]


As for the Senate, if the Dems reach a simple majority there in 2018 they will be doing great. Put 60 or 67 out of your mind.

An increasingly obvious child molester has a Repub Senate nomination _and no one is sure that HE'S going to lose._
posted by delfin at 9:11 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


Dana Rohrabacher losing by 10 points to a Democratic opponent, 41% to 51%, in CA-48 (Orange County).

I'm sure Russian Representative Rohrabacher will get a lucrative sinecure at some Gazprom subsidiary for his exemplary service.
posted by acb at 9:17 AM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


How can anyone express this degree of certainty about anything right now?

They can't, but when we just saw a wave election that exceeded just about every pundit's expectations, yet a near double-digit margin translated into at best a 50-50 split, it's hard not to see that the game is rigged very far out of our favor.

I agree it's unlikely that Dems will win enough seats for a 2/3 party line majority, but the Republican party might well be fracturing into bits before our eyes.

See also: any MeFi thread from 2006, 2008, and even 2012 expressing excitement over the always-imminent "fracturing" of the GOP. How accurate were those predictions?
posted by zombieflanders at 9:18 AM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


Translation: El Presidente Cheeto is on downers.

Like Nixon, who, if Francis Wheen's Strange Days Indeed is to be believed, was kept doped to the eyeballs by his handlers?
posted by acb at 9:18 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Simple majority in the Senate is huge even if we can’t convince 16 Rs to convict on impeachment. We have old Justices and a D majority would, under the McConnell rule, allow Dems to deny Trump any SC confirmations in 2019-20. Which is why Ds need to send $$$$ to Jones. That one seat could be huge. Jones wins, beat Flake’s replacement, beat Heller, hold in others and it’s 51-49. Tough but conceivable.
posted by chris24 at 9:23 AM on November 14, 2017 [32 favorites]


> See also: any MeFi thread from 2006, 2008, and even 2012 expressing excitement over the always-imminent "fracturing" of the GOP. How accurate were those predictions?

The fracturing of the Republican coalition, as currently constituted, is inevitable. There can only be so much time during which the interests of the social conservatives and white grievance racists is aligned with the interests of the ultra-rich and big business. Eventually, big business needs employees and consumers, and billionaires need a society that is worth living in.

The problem with that statement is that "eventually" is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

It's no surprise that people have called the date wrong, and I would be surprised, but not entirely stunned, if the coalition hung together for another election cycle or two. And of course, that's enough time to do plenty of damage - possibly irreversible damage - to our society, our international standing, our environment and climate, etc. etc. etc.

But the fracture and realignment is surely coming. Eventually.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:26 AM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


It’s scary that the whole nazi revivalist movement in Charlottesville was just about three months ago....

I made this comment less than two days ago and could already add confirmed Trump/Wikileaks collusion, AG perjury (again!), and the DOJ seriously considering investigating Clinton (again! x 1000). I want off this ride.
posted by milarepa at 9:28 AM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


> See also: any MeFi thread from 2006, 2008, and even 2012 expressing excitement over the always-imminent "fracturing" of the GOP. How accurate were those predictions?

The extent of the powers of gerrymandering & vote suppression were not fully known at the time, which can explain a fair amount of the discrepancy.
posted by scalefree at 9:31 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Shorter Jeff Sessions.

How is that even possible?


I'll show myself out...
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:44 AM on November 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


Some people think numbers could be in the 50's

Some people think the moon is made of cheese
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:49 AM on November 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


> See also: any MeFi thread from 2006, 2008, and even 2012 expressing excitement over the always-imminent "fracturing" of the GOP. How accurate were those predictions?

Seems like the GOP *is* fractured right now. Remember when they had to select a Speaker and could barely accomplish that? The radical right wing of the party won't compromise with the center-right and the center-right won't compromise with the democrats, so they're in constant endless deadlock. The only thing holding them together is the promise of finally getting some awesome tax cuts. If that fails? They'll be dead as a governing party.
posted by dis_integration at 9:56 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Sessions keeps saying he never intentionally lied (technically possible) but also that his story has never changed (technically impossible and therefore a lie). [Trump Administration disappears in a puff of logic]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:58 AM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


This Mr Jeffries is doing a lot of wonderful things to Sessions right now.
posted by Brainy at 10:00 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


If you have to be the kind of person that increasingly loses general elections to have a shot in your party's primary, it's a big problem. Think of gerrymandering and voter suppression as the duct tape and string holding the whole thing together, you can get pretty far with a truly massive amount of duct tape and string but it's not a long term solution to the problem.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:04 AM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


See also: any MeFi thread from 2006, 2008, and even 2012 expressing excitement over the always-imminent "fracturing" of the GOP. How accurate were those predictions?

I recall in 2008, people were so euphoric about Obama's election that nothing else really mattered. Even in 2012, Democrats - especially in solid blue states like CA - were so focused on the presidency that down-ballot races were ignored. The consequences didn't really hit home for many Dems until 2014.

As for 2006 - the whole political landscape was so different. No Facebook and other social media, sure, that meant no bots, but it also meant that people in, say, California couldn't really find out what was going on in Virginia or Alabama unless they were die-hard political junkies willing to do some legwork, or were on a site like Daily Kos or Metafilter where people from other states talked about their local races.

And we were not long out of the 2004 Presidential race which failed to get most Democrats as energized as they were in 2016, or even 2008. So many people were excited to vote for HRC, liked her platform, and thought she'd make a good President. Nobody was really excited to vote for John Kerry that I recall, even in the blue SF Bay Area; it was "meh, at least he's a Democrat and not Bush, better hold my nose and vote."

The Democratic Resistance (tm) is stronger and people are much more interconnected. I think Republicans are losing more people, as well - just look at who turned out to vote for Northam, and who turned out to elect Danica Roem (to name just two). Remember "God, guns, and gays?" Supposedly that propelled Bush and Republicans to victory in 2004. Now, a majority of Americans approve of same-sex marriage, a full one-quarter of US adults say they are spiritual but not religious, and if it weren't for the NRA I think we'd be moving forward on guns, too.

Yes, I am an optimist.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:11 AM on November 14, 2017 [29 favorites]


TPM: Senate Dems Demand Investigation Into Wilbur Ross’ Conflicts Of Interest
posted by Chrysostom at 10:12 AM on November 14, 2017 [26 favorites]


I've known him about that long, have a couple friends who can add another 5 years to that plus one who was his roommate for a while.

I just want to add that none of us is particularly proud of this & that includes one guy who has expressed a belief that the CIA has implanted a computer chip in his head. But like it or not it's true, he's one of us & has been for a long time.
posted by scalefree at 10:15 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


not a long term solution to the problem.

Unfortunately selling out the country to Putin possibly IS a long term solution, depending on what you identify as "the problem."

We'll have to see how many Republicans value power over patriotism.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:18 AM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


scalefree: The extent of the powers of gerrymandering & vote suppression were not fully known at the time, which can explain a fair amount of the discrepancy.

This is a big one. Before the newer software advances, gerrymandering was a much weaker weapon. After the 2010 census, Democrats have needed waves to reach a mere majority, both nationally and on the state level (see Virginia). 2012 had a million more votes for House Democrats, but Republicans wound up with an advantage of 33 seats.

And just think, any serious reforms to level the playing field will always be derided by conservatives as so much snowflakes whining for participation trophies. As if Republican domination should be regarded a force of nature anyone else must work doubly hard to defeat, independent of the actual popularity of Republican views.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:19 AM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


You know, the amazing thing is - Sessions is one of the most evil people in politics. And even he knows you can't have the DOJ going after Hillary for no damned reason.

The House Republicans are truly a thing of majesty.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:21 AM on November 14, 2017 [21 favorites]


Buzzfeed: The FBI is scrutinizing more than 60 money transfers sent by the Russian foreign ministry to its embassies across the globe, most of them bearing a note that said the money was to be used “to finance election campaign of 2016.”
posted by Chrysostom at 10:23 AM on November 14, 2017 [52 favorites]


Elaina Plott, Daily Beast: No One Knows What Omarosa Is Doing in the White House—[Not] Even Omarosa
The ‘Apprentice’ star has a top salary and a high-ranking job. But when we spent time with her, it was her wedding she was planning.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:23 AM on November 14, 2017 [27 favorites]


Does the receipt of information of value, from Wikileaks, a foreign company, which Trump used 15 minutes after Jr's received, violate https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121
posted by mikelieman at 10:24 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


From the Buzzfeed article
Much as checks include a memo line, wire transfers often include a note that states what the money is for. The note on this set of transfers does not indicate what election the money was to be used for, or even the country. Seven nations had federal elections during the span when the funds were sent — including the Duma, Russia’s lower house of Parliament, on Sept. 18, 2016. Russian embassies and diplomatic compounds opened polling stations for voters living abroad.
So let's not jump to any conclusions.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:26 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


Buzzfeed: The FBI is scrutinizing more than 60 money transfers sent by the Russian foreign ministry to its embassies across the globe, most of them bearing a note that said the money was to be used “to finance election campaign of 2016.”

Lol. I too love to mark my illicit funds with "To Pay For CRIMES". I put it in the "memo" line of every check I write.
posted by dis_integration at 10:27 AM on November 14, 2017 [25 favorites]


We'll have to see how many Republicans value power over patriotism.

I think we already do. It's most of them.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:29 AM on November 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


The extent of the powers of gerrymandering & vote suppression were not fully known at the time, which can explain a fair amount of the discrepancy.

And 2002, 04, 06, 08, etc, were all before Citizens United and the Republican Supreme Court's repeal of the Voting Rights Act.

You cannot make a valid comparison to the voting environment pre-2010 and later elections. We have so many fewer protections against systematic Republican disenfranchisement of Democratic votes today than we did pre-2010. It's literally a different country.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:32 AM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


Buzzfeed: The FBI is scrutinizing more than 60 money transfers sent by the Russian foreign ministry to its embassies across the globe, most of them bearing a note that said the money was to be used “to finance election campaign of 2016.”

deaddove.jpg
posted by jason_steakums at 10:32 AM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


Yeah, this is likely just for the 2016 Russian Parliament election. For national elections, embassies hold open hours during which ex-pats can come in and cast their votes from abroad, and 30k for the D.C. embassy is right about how much I'd expect it would cost to staff an event like that.
posted by creampuff at 10:36 AM on November 14, 2017 [19 favorites]


So I've been thinking about the Trump/Putin relationship, how it might have started, what's the nature of the deal between them based on what we know of them. I think we've been looking at it all wrong, assuming the hold Putin has on Trump is a negative one, based on kompromat & threats on his finances. But everything we know about Trump says he doesn't respond to threats so why would threats by Putin be any different? As a narcissist he feels no shame & has an exaggerated sense of his ability to defend his wealth & capture more as needed, so Putin's threats wouldn't have such a profound effect on him.

But what if it's not the stick Putin used on him but a carrot instead? What kind of inducement could Putin credibly offer to turn Trump's head & capture his loyalty? How about us, America? What if Putin made an offer to effectively give America to Trump to rule permanently just as Putin rules Russia? He'd flatter him, saying how much alike they are, great men of history destined to stride the world together. Trump would follow his lead in all things, flattering Putin in return & making it his highest priority to accomomodate his wishes & needs because he understands that the path to permanent rule over America passes through Russia.

Of course reality is much more like Sauron's plan for Saruman, that he'd be enabled only as far as it furthers his goal of global conquest & in time the leash would tighten. But until then Trump would get to caper & preen on the world stage, looting as he went.
posted by scalefree at 10:41 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


Also worth noting that it was the election of a black President in 2008 that really sent the Republican war against democracy and against fair elections into overdrive. They always had played at gerrymandering around the margins and with disenfranchisement of the black vote, but 2008 took it to a new level. They dedicated themselves wholly to the idea that no Democratic vote, anywhere, is a valid vote.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:42 AM on November 14, 2017 [58 favorites]


Yeah, this is likely just for the 2016 Russian Parliament election. For national elections, embassies hold open hours during which ex-pats can come in and cast their votes from abroad, and 30k for the D.C. embassy is right about how much I'd expect it would cost to staff an event like that.

Would that be described as a "campaign", though? Like if it just said "for 2016 elections" and they were holding their own elections, I wouldn't blink. But campaigning is for the candidates, not the state (though to be fair, I'm sure that's a little fuzzy in Putin's Russia). Or idk, maybe there's a translation quirk and "campaign" is an unclear translation. Feels weird that the FBI wouldn't immediately rule out the Russian elections, though.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:44 AM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


Meanwhile, in tax news....

The CBO has sent a letter out to the Senate warning them that as it stands Medicare would be cut by $25 billion immediately

@Topher Spiro BREAKING: CBO: Tax bill will automatically cut Medicare by $25 billion per year almost immediately.

@Jim Tankersley In letter to Rep. Hoyer, CBO says that unless Congress acts to lift PAYGO, tax bill would trigger $25b in Medicaid cuts. ($136b total cuts for FY '18) [reference to Medicaid was in error which he corrects in another tweet to Medicare]

So the Senate Bill may need some tweaking.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:47 AM on November 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


Mission: Ursineable

DUN DUN DUN-DUN
DUN DUN DUN-DUN
posted by delfin at 10:59 AM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


This is such small potatoes but #2017 I guess?

Included in the Zinke flag nonsense, he requires that his special flag be flown whenever he is "in garrison."
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:00 AM on November 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


Oh, it's that Zinke.

I swear there is an actual White House competition for That Fucking Guy Of The Year
posted by InTheYear2017 at 11:05 AM on November 14, 2017 [40 favorites]


ActingTheGoat: Notwithstanding the ridiculous militarism of this pompous fool, the fact that the word 'Tribe' and an image of a bison are on the flag is even more egregious
posted by Myeral at 11:06 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


The design of the flag reads "Whitefish" and has an electric eel.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:07 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


So is the taxpayer on the hook for Zinke's eventual pyramid and entombing him with all this shit or what
posted by jason_steakums at 11:07 AM on November 14, 2017 [36 favorites]


Ugh that is just petty fucking nonsense (flag size and rules for flying thereof) that proves he is there for reasons other than working to make the Dept. of Interior work as well as possible. And anyone who wants a stuffed grizzly bear on display should not be working for the Dept. of Interior to begin with. Gah!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:08 AM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


A photo of Zinke at work in his newly-designed office.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:12 AM on November 14, 2017 [36 favorites]


Elaina Plott, Daily Beast: No One Knows What Omarosa Is Doing in the White House—[Not] Even Omarosa

HuffPo: Interior Decorator: Zinke’s Push To Redesign Flags

Sorry, but do any of these assholes ever do any goddamn fucking work?
posted by CommonSense at 11:12 AM on November 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


I'd rather that these assholes do NO work rather than work toward the goals they want to...
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:15 AM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


>Sorry, but do any of these assholes ever do any goddamn fucking work?

Look, they are destroying American democracy just as fast as they fucking can. These are long established institutions of government - their destruction takes time.
posted by mosk at 11:15 AM on November 14, 2017 [31 favorites]


So is the taxpayer on the hook for Zinke's eventual pyramid and entombing him with all this shit or what

i would not begrudge my tax dollars being spent on entombing ryan zinke if we start right now
posted by murphy slaw at 11:16 AM on November 14, 2017 [36 favorites]


^^^ But his current staff must be buried with him. To, y'know, "attend to him in the after life."
posted by mosk at 11:17 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


Included in the Zinke flag nonsense, he requires that his special flag be flown whenever he is "in garrison."

Looks like he's a seven star Secretary. That's a lot.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:19 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


So is the taxpayer on the hook for Zinke's eventual pyramid and entombing him with all this shit or what

REMEMBER ME
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:19 AM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


Chrysostom: TPM: Senate Dems Demand Investigation Into Wilbur Ross’ Conflicts Of Interest

How many times have the Senate or House Democrats demanded something and were greeted with the same silent laughter seen here from Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, along with Republican Sens. Orrin Hatch, and Chuck Grassley, as when reporters asked them about Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore? Because I think we should be keeping track, to make sure it's done post-Trump.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:20 AM on November 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


Sorry, but do any of these assholes ever do any goddamn fucking work?

I think their success at pushing their domestic and foreign policy agenda speaks for itself.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:21 AM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


During one exchange at today's Senate Foreign Relations Committee's hearing on the Authority to Order the Use of Nuclear Weapons, Senator Chris Murphy declared, flatly: "We are concerned that the President of the United States is so unstable, is so volatile, has a decision-making process that is so quixotic that he might order a nuclear weapons strike that is wildly out of step with US national security interests. So let's just recognize the exceptional nature of this moment and the discussion that we're having today.

Mother Jones has a recap: Does Congress Think Trump Can Be Trusted With Nuclear Weapons? (The very fact that they had this hearing, however reassuring their witnesses tried to be, already suggests they don't.)
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:22 AM on November 14, 2017 [68 favorites]


I've started referring to him as Inferior Secretary Zinke. He can't quite compete with the Wilbur Rosses and the Steve Mnuchins, but he is doing his best.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:25 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


I hate this guy so much both for what he is and does and also how inevitable his failing upwards was: if a former member of Seal Team Six (even a disliked and denounced one like him) runs for congress in a rural, super-white US state with a population of one million, he'll win. If he's a rich Seal Team Sixer then he'll really win. And that's all it took: from there it's straight to having his own weird feudal-toxic-masculinity timewarp-dimension office and shuffling the corpses of beasts around and displaying his knives and designing his flags.

It's not enough for Zinke to be an asshole, he has to be an asshole from two centuries ago. Dude clearly wants to be Teddy Roosevelt and has learned all the wrong lessons and admired all the wrong traits. Teddy would have loved his animal-murdering and his racism, true, but I don't doubt that he would physically beat Zinke's ass if he saw what he was doing to Interior.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:26 AM on November 14, 2017 [23 favorites]


The Bundys et al would have flipped their shit entirely if someone under Obama would have pulled this militaristic Zinke crap as head of Interior. Like BLM employees would have died. But Zinke's just their big strong Republican daddy so they'll take it with a smile even after federal lands are privatized and they're ludicrously priced out of affordable grazing land.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:27 AM on November 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


Quinnipiac has Trump’s job approval rating at a pathetic 35%. Sad!
posted by Barack Spinoza at 11:29 AM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


Newsweek Mike Pence NFL Game Walkout Was Unethical and Cost Local Police $14,000, Watchdog Says

The city of Indianapolis should send a bill to Trump's 2020 campaign organization. That doesn't include the cost to the Federal government, however, which would be the Secret Service bill and the cost of the AirForce 2 to fly there. It's OK if this stupid stunt slipped your mind because it happened October 8-- which god knows is a century ago in Trump time.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:33 AM on November 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


"Bilbo Bigot" is much better than "Racist Keebler Elf."

@sarahkendzior: Since Bilbo Bigot is apparently running late, I'm going to watch the #TrumpNuclear hearing until he shows up
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:33 AM on November 14, 2017 [33 favorites]


RE: BREAKING: CBO: Tax bill will automatically cut Medicare by $25 billion per year almost immediately.

This is more of a 'miserable state of the state" comment, but this story showed up in my email this morning and it's been bothering the hell out of me. Not 91-year-old Ms. Griffing, a cheerful sort who's only taken 4 sick days in the 71 years she's worked for the same outfit, but the lede:

"In current culture, millennials move from job to job in order to climb the ladder. The average time spent at a company is just two years. For baby boomers and other generations, this was not the norm. Loyalty and dedication to a single company or career drove, and still drives, many of their careers. AOL’s original series Lifers features these dedicated, loyal workers who have been in their jobs for years and years. Will they retire? Are they prepared to?"

Here in pesky reality, any original series on Millennials could have been called Lifers. (I know, I know, why would they even deserve such attention, given how clearly opportunistic and disloyal they are? When they, and they alone, are destroying the pension industry?)
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:34 AM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


These constant reports of historic low job approval ratings are just background noise at this point. Not sure what the point of even doing these polls is anymore. His numbers are going to stay way down in the toilet but never get low enough to actually circle the drain, because of idiots.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:37 AM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


"In current culture, millennials move from job to job in order to climb the ladder. The average time spent at a company is just two years.... these dedicated, loyal workers who have been in their jobs for years and years....

i mean the dots are literally RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER
is connecting them REALLY SO HARD
posted by halation at 11:38 AM on November 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


In current culture, millennials move from job to job in order to climb the ladder... For baby boomers and other generations, this was not the norm.

THIS ISN'T EVEN TRUE. Millennials have similar average job tenure compared to prior generations at the same ages.
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:38 AM on November 14, 2017 [27 favorites]


"Bilbo Bigot" is much better than "Racist Keebler Elf."

I call him "The Pixie from Dixie."
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:39 AM on November 14, 2017 [25 favorites]


I call him "The Pixie from Dixie."

Unsolicited DixPix are the worst.
posted by Buntix at 11:40 AM on November 14, 2017 [43 favorites]


More tax nightmares: The bill is moving at warp speed. On the House side, they plan to have it through the Rules Committee and on the floor tomorrow. The Senate is now seemingly serious about adding the repeal of the individual healthcare mandate to their bill, despite the obvious madness of this plan, a change that will mean that many in the middle class won't just get tax increases, they'll get health care premium increases too, and CBO estimates 13 million more people won't have health insurance.

They are going to do everything to pass this horrible thing, and the madness of Moore, Trump, the never-ending news cycle are giving them cover.
posted by zachlipton at 11:43 AM on November 14, 2017 [28 favorites]


Included in the Zinke flag nonsense, he requires that his special flag be flown whenever he is "in garrison."

So like a monarch? Not unsettling at all.
posted by Talez at 11:44 AM on November 14, 2017


Oh wait it just got even worse. Passing Alexander-Murray alongside the tax bill is now part of the deal.

This is just layers of crap stacked on top of crap.
posted by zachlipton at 11:45 AM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


Unsolicited DixPix are the worst.

As AG of the US, he's actually Solicitor DixPix.
posted by lord_wolf at 11:46 AM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


Well really at this point the only thing missing from the tax bill is that all Democrats must turn themselves in so that their blood and organs can be harvested and the remaining poors must sign up for indentured servitude. Why not go whole hog!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:51 AM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


The Bundys et al would have flipped their shit entirely if someone under Obama would have pulled this militaristic Zinke crap as head of Interior. Like BLM employees would have died. But Zinke's just their big strong Republican daddy so they'll take it with a smile even after federal lands are privatized and they're ludicrously priced out of affordable grazing land.

pretty sure zinke's gameplan is to sell the public lands at a pittance to assholes like the bundys
posted by entropicamericana at 11:51 AM on November 14, 2017 [23 favorites]


As AG of the US, he's actually Solicitor DixPix.

Unsolicitors Genital
posted by Barack Spinoza at 12:01 PM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


entropicamericana: pretty sure zinke's gameplan is to sell the public lands at a pittance to assholes like the bundys

But the Bundys were getting access to that land for free, so wouldn't that be a net loss for them? (Well, depending on how their pending trial goes).
posted by filthy light thief at 12:04 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


This is my periodic reminder to CALL YOUR CONGRESSPEOPLE. This tax bill is a grab bag full of terrible things that the GOP has been dreaming about for years. Here's the switchboard number:(202) 224-3121.
posted by mcduff at 12:10 PM on November 14, 2017 [18 favorites]


The Senate is now seemingly serious about adding the repeal of the individual healthcare mandate to their bill, despite the obvious madness of this plan,

How does this help passage in the Senate? I can't imagine the results in Virginia will make Collins or Murkowski are more likely to vote for it than before.

...and Arizona will still get screwed under an Obamacare repeal.

...and how have McCain's procedural concerns been addressed?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:12 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Oh wait it just got even worse. Passing Alexander-Murray alongside the tax bill is now part of the deal.

This is just layers of crap stacked on top of crap.

Wait wait wait. Alexander-Murray is a chip that Democrats primarily want. Did Pelosi sell the middle class down the river to stabilize Obamacare?!?
posted by Talez at 12:13 PM on November 14, 2017


There's no way any Democrats vote for this bill. It makes zero sense either ethically or politically.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:14 PM on November 14, 2017


...and how have McCain's procedural concerns been addressed?

They have not, but he has expressed his satisfaction with "normal order," so that's no longer an issue/a bulwark against creeping feudalism.
posted by infinitewindow at 12:14 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Kevin Drum is mystified by how this can pass.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:18 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


But the Bundys were getting access to that land for free, so wouldn't that be a net loss for them? (Well, depending on how their pending trial goes).

the endgame for all ranchers of their ilk is subrurban sprawl. debase the land for all its worth, then sell off and develop the rest of the land as retirement homes for racist caiifornians
posted by entropicamericana at 12:19 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


> Kevin Drum is mystified by how this can pass.

K-Drum needs a new act. This eternal Unfrozen Caveman act where he acts like he's never encountered Republicans in his life is getting old.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:22 PM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


I know it's hard to believe that the Republicans will fuck up so badly that they can't pass a tax bill, but recent history suggests they are capable of astounding feats of fucking up. (This is not an argument for complacency.)
posted by diogenes at 12:25 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, declared he could not remember over 33 times during his hearing.

I'd have paid damn good money for a Democratic Senator to ask him if, given his obvious mental problems he thought he was qualified to be Attorney General and if so why.

Seriously, either he's brain damaged or lying, and I don't know why the Democrats didn't make a bigger deal out of that. They needed to make his self proclaimed mental disability the centerpiece of the hearing.

"Mr. Sessions, as Attorney General is a mentally taxing job, do you feel that you are capable of carrying out your duties given your self proclaimed mental handicaps?"

"Mr. Sessions, since you are unable to recall meeting with Russian spies to help rig the 2016 election, do you need post it notes to remind you of the location of your toilet?"

"Mr. Sessions, it is truly remarkable that, despite suffering the brain damage that has rendered your memory so unreliable you were able to make it to this hearing. Do you think you can remember how to get back to your office after we're finished here, or should we arrange for a helper animal?"

"You probably don't recall, but your name is Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III and you're supposed to be the Attorney General of the USA, while I realize asking questions is futile due to your mental disabilities, I do have an obligation to my constituents to ask if you can recall the time you tried to put three black people in prison for trying to help other black people vote?"

The hearing was a joke, at the very least they could have spent their time emphasizing how utterly unbelievable and pathetic his transparent lies about being unable to recall multiple meetings with Russian spies were.
posted by sotonohito at 12:27 PM on November 14, 2017 [65 favorites]


Wait wait wait. Alexander-Murray is a chip that Democrats primarily want. Did Pelosi sell the middle class down the river to stabilize Obamacare?!?

i'm hoping it's to persuade the republicans who have their names on the bill.
posted by halation at 12:28 PM on November 14, 2017


I don't think that's what Drum's piece says at all? He's saying it violates the Byrd rule, and it doesn't seem fixable to avoid that. So either they say "we're just going to make up numbers" or it doesn't pass. And as he points out, that's basically the equivalent of nuking the filibuster, which a fair numbers of GOP senators oppose.

I know we all like to say the GOP will stop at nothing, but that's a pretty big step for them, once the filibuster is gone, it's not coming back.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:28 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


From @JYSexton on Twitter:
The biggest topic on the Right is how to get a child molester elected so a perjured Attorney General can resign and his replacement can fire a special prosecutor who’s discovering the president’s treason.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:32 PM on November 14, 2017 [134 favorites]


Maybe, but they are so desperate to pass something, I can see them convincing themselves that overruling the parliamentarian isn't really nuking the filibuster, just disagreeing on interpretation. Or they fudge the numbers just enough to slide in under $1.5 trillion added to the debt.
posted by zachlipton at 12:33 PM on November 14, 2017


I'm watching Ken Burn's The Vietnam War in it's 2nd PBS run & loved this bit w.r.t. diplomacy today:
"...when the President of the United States cannot travel abroad or to any major city at home without fear of a hostile demonstration—then it's time for new leadership for the [U.S. of A.]"
—Richard Milhouse Nixon
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 12:33 PM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


...once the filibuster is gone, it's not coming back.

Oh, I don't know about that. Look at Blue Slip rules that magically relax and stiffen depending on whose nominees they are. I could see Turtle's eventual replacement saying "Clearly we need to restore the filibuster for the good of the nation" and reinstating it right before the Repubs lose the majority, and somehow managing to keep a straight face without overdosing on Botox.
posted by delfin at 12:33 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


I don't think that's what Drum's piece says at all? He's saying it violates the Byrd rule, and it doesn't seem fixable to avoid that.

Isn't that why they're chaining healthcare to it? Wouldn't gutting healthcare give them the money they need?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:34 PM on November 14, 2017


Has Sessions been fired for committing perjury (multiple times) yet?
posted by Yowser at 12:35 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


Note that Drum's piece was apparently written before the Obamacare mandate repeal. Which is at least part of how they intend to satisfy the Byrd rule.
posted by Justinian at 12:35 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


Actually, it's “Attorneys General Session”
posted by mbrubeck at 12:35 PM on November 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


> So either they say "we're just going to make up numbers"

This one. If the only thing blocking passing and signing tax cuts into law is procedure, they can retain the filibuster and pass the legislation by simply having Mike Pence ignore the parliamentarian's ruling. From a story about the last time this was mentioned as a possibility:
Some Republicans are hinting at more radical steps to get past MacDonough’s review. Senator Ted Cruz of Texas has been floating the idea of simply ignoring the parliamentarian’s review for months now. The presiding officer of the Senate—Vice President Mike Pence—technically makes the final call on parliamentary procedures, and could overrule the parliamentarian’s objections, although this would be a highly controversial break of Senate norms that hasn’t been attempted for over 40 years.
If the only thing stopping them is controversy and norms, and if they support the underlying package, I think this is the most likely outcome. They have failed so many times they need to put a win on the board, and they're not going to care if it ruffles some feathers.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:36 PM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


Comment on the Kevin Drum article:

I think there's a lot of dingbat kabuki going on here. The House is going to do everything it can to please its donors, and let the Senate deliver the bad news. That's pretty much standard for politics. Take the extreme position, and let other people stop you from doing the thing that is actually a bad idea of doing. That way you avoid having to be the voice of reason - the person saying "no" to constituents or donors.

That may be.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:37 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


I don't think that's what Drum's piece says at all? He's saying it violates the Byrd rule, and it doesn't seem fixable to avoid that.

Isn't that why they're chaining healthcare to it? Wouldn't gutting healthcare give them the money they need?

Note that Drum's piece was apparently written before the Obamacare mandate repeal. Which is at least part of how they intend to satisfy the Byrd rule.

...and there it is.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:37 PM on November 14, 2017


@BettyBowers:
CONGRESS: Did you have contacts with Russians?
SESSIONS: No.
CONGRESS: You lied.
SESSIONS: Not to the question I made up in my head. Checkmate.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:41 PM on November 14, 2017 [44 favorites]


If the only thing stopping them is controversy and norms, and if they support the underlying package, I think this is the most likely outcome. They have failed so many times they need to put a win on the board, and they're not going to care if it ruffles some feathers.

Assuming we survive the current fascistpocalypse: when the pendulum eventually swings the other way and Democrats hold majorities, can you imagine how hard Republicans are going to cry over the slightest deviation from the old norms they're ignoring now?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:43 PM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


Repealing the mandate gives them +$338B over the 10 year budget window. It would help solve some of their problems with the math, though not everything. The Senate is supposedly putting out a new plan later today ("later today" being a vaguely defined term), so we'd have to see what they do there exactly.

Even $1.5T in deficit spending (even $1.5T, yeesh) would trigger automatic budget cuts to other programs under PAYGO rules, including a 4% cut to Medicaid and a doubling of student loan origination fees.
posted by zachlipton at 12:43 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


I'm only mostly joking, but could they ever somehow restructure the filibuster rules to only be usable by Republicans? Like just straight-up encode IOKIYAR into Senate bylaws.

I feel as if the handful of Republicans who like to be seen as having a conscience are truly all that stands between us and... that.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 12:43 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


So is our best hope for stopping this trainwreck again Murkowski, Collins, and McCain?
posted by Justinian at 12:44 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


In current culture, millennials move from job to job in order to climb the ladder... For baby boomers and other generations, this was not the norm.

Maybe the fact that corporations destroyed pensions, unions and health benefits for their employees, and outsource factories overseas or move to low-wage states at the drop of a hat, has something to do with the reduction in "loyalty."
posted by msalt at 12:45 PM on November 14, 2017 [45 favorites]


So is our best hope for stopping this trainwreck again Murkowski, Collins, and McCain?

One has to assume they won't vote on this until Rand Paul can come back. How does the calendar affect it all?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:49 PM on November 14, 2017


Rand Paul has already made his glorious return
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:50 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Kevin Drum's act is pretty good. He predicted the fate of the various Obamacare repeal attempts (so far) right after the election.

Note that he is not saying the tax bill won't pass. He is just saying he can't predict which dirty tricks Republicans will resort to, to get it to pass. He is saying they are going to have to resort to some dirty trick, and suggests several possibilities.

Any of them will have consequences, though.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:50 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Rand Paul is back and leading the charge to repeal the individual mandate as part of the tax bill.
posted by zachlipton at 12:51 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Rand Paul is back as of yesterday.

Repealing the mandate gives them +$338B over the 10 year budget window.

That's a cumulative figure though, yes? The actual change to the deficit in 2027 or whatever is more like 40b? Which only gets them like 1/4 or 1/3 of the way there?
posted by Justinian at 12:51 PM on November 14, 2017


Well, shit.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:52 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Looks like the effect on the deficit in 2027 is 50b not 40b, so just under 1/3 of the way to deficit neutral in 2017 with an obamacare mandate repeal.
posted by Justinian at 12:53 PM on November 14, 2017



Rand Paul has already made his glorious return
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:50 PM on November 14 [2 favorites +] [!]

The first Bowling Green Massacre veteran to be so honored.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:56 PM on November 14, 2017 [16 favorites]


sotonohito: I'd have paid damn good money for a Democratic Senator to ask him if, given his obvious mental problems he thought he was qualified to be Attorney General and if so why.

His justification for not remembering meetings a mere 18 months ago, then upon prompting remembering that yes, he was in that meeting, and while there, he did indeed direct others to not pursue contact with Russia, was that no one else at the hearing had been part of a presidential campaign, and specifically the Trump campaign, which he mentioned as if to say that there was more going on with Trump's campaign than other presidential campaigns.

Except it made the Trump campaign sound all the shadier, and/or working for/with Trump more complicated than working with other presidential candidates, which didn't sound like a compliment but some light shade at Trump and co.

I'm not saying that his justification is any good, but he did try to justify why he didn't remember a meeting where collusion with Russia was discussed, and where he, as a person of power in that situation, said "let's not pursue this any further."

AND following that forgettable meeting, he remembers that he then failed to inform any of the US intelligence agency about this potential contact with a foreign state.

In reflection, that final, bolded statement really undermines his own credibility with any of his prior statements. How can you remember not telling the FBI that you had a meeting to discuss collusion with Russia, when moments before you said you had largely forgotten that meeting until you had read the descriptions of the meetings from other people who were in that meeting?

If nothing else, this is all just more fodder for the next time Sessions is asked questions on the record.

If you missed this hearing, C-SPAN has more than 5 hours recorded, with the delightful URL "attorney-general-sessions-im-fan-wikileaks," except that quote is a comment in response to Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-Dublin)'s line of questions:
Asked by Swalwell whether his current recollections contradicted his Senate testimony, he replied, “I’m prepared to answer the question, but I just will not answer it in a way that suggests that I misled.”

Swalwell also reminded Sessions that the president’s son, Donald Trump Jr., has acknowledged that he communicated with WikiLeaks, which published emails that hackers had taken from Democratic campaign aides to injure Hillary Clinton’s campaign.

He declined to answer whether it was appropriate for the younger Trump to exchange messages with the group, which U.S. intelligence officials have said is a representative of hostile powers.

The president said during the campaign that he loved WikiLeaks and hoped it would release more anti-Clinton information.

Do you love WikiLeaks, Swalwell asked?

“I’m not a fan of WikiLeaks,” Sessions replied.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:56 PM on November 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


My guess is the Republicans just pass something which doesn't comply with the Byrd Rule and say fuck it. In which case next time the Dems have Congress + Presidency they should just pass whatever the fuck they want with 50 votes no matter what.
posted by Justinian at 1:02 PM on November 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


My guess is the Republicans just pass something which doesn't comply with the Byrd Rule and say fuck it.

This would be my bet too.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:10 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


I don't understand how repealing the individual mandate saves the government money? I mean, there is a small amount of tax gathered by the IRS from individuals who decline to purchase health insurance. Otherwise, the government doesn't spend anything (maybe enforcement?). This doesn't have to do with subsidizing premiums or anything like that?
posted by obliquity of the ecliptic at 1:14 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


His justification for not remembering meetings a mere 18 months ago, then upon prompting remembering that yes, he was in that meeting, and while there, he did indeed direct others to not pursue contact with Russia, was that no one else at the hearing had been part of a presidential campaign, and specifically the Trump campaign, which he mentioned as if to say that there was more going on with Trump's campaign than other presidential campaigns.

As pointed out on Twitter, we could hold a 5kkk charity run to raise money for research into Jeff's senility.
posted by Talez at 1:14 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


I don't understand how repealing the individual mandate saves the government money? I mean, there is a small amount of tax gathered by the IRS from individuals who decline to purchase health insurance. Otherwise, the government doesn't spend anything (maybe enforcement?). This doesn't have to do with subsidizing premiums or anything like that?

If the mandate isn't there people might not buy it and the vast majority of insurance on the individual market is subsidized. No people buying it = no money spent subsidizing.
posted by Talez at 1:15 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


Right. It works like this:

Repeal individual mandate ---> fewer healthy people buy insurance
fewer healthy people buy insurance ---> insurance pools are much sicker
sicker insurance pools ---> much higher premiums
much higher premiums ---> even sick people stop buying insurance
many fewer people with insurance ---> government pays less in subsidies
PROFIT!!! (if you are rich already)
posted by Justinian at 1:18 PM on November 14, 2017 [21 favorites]


My guess is the Republicans just pass something which doesn't comply with the Byrd Rule and say fuck it.

This would be my bet too.

I don't think you can just ignore Senate rules.

Also, I don't think the Senate wants to ignore their rules. The rules give individual Senators more power than any other single elected official outside of the President. There's a reason why McConnell has preserved the filibuster even though it makes things harder for him.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:18 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Why not?
posted by agregoli at 1:19 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


You can vote to eliminate, amend, or grant an exception to the rules with 50(+1) votes.
posted by Justinian at 1:19 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Repeal individual mandate ---> fewer healthy people buy insurance
fewer healthy people buy insurance ---> insurance pools are much sicker
sicker insurance pools ---> much higher premiums
much higher premiums ---> even sick people stop buying insurance
many fewer people with insurance ---> government pays less in subsidies

Plus!
many fewer people with insurance ---> fewer live to collect Medicare
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:20 PM on November 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


That's convenient since they are also cutting medicare if they add 1.5T to the debt because of the PAYGO rules.
posted by Justinian at 1:21 PM on November 14, 2017


Cutting Medicaid. Medicare is exempt from PAYGO. Funny how poor people get automatically screwed but not seniors, huh?
posted by zachlipton at 1:22 PM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


Wooops. Bad Justinian no biscuit.
posted by Justinian at 1:23 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Justinian I doubt they'll do anything so honest as actually vote to change the rules. They'll just break the rules, and if anyone calls them on it they'll be deeply, DEEPLY, offended that anyone would suggest they're breaking the Senate rules.

The "liberal media" will report it as "some Democrats say the upcoming Tax Relief vote breaks Senate rules, but Republicans disagree, we now go to our panel of five hard right Republicans and one moderate Republican to discuss the issue".

Actually legitimately changing the rules would mean the Democrats, assuming we're ever permitted to win a majority again, would be able to use the new rules. Simply breaking the rules leaves them in place so they can get the spineless, Marque of Queensbury obsessed, Democrats to obey them.
posted by sotonohito at 1:23 PM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


Yeah, I mean, they've been telegraphing it for months with their public skepticism of the CBO. They'll just say the REAL NUMBERS say that teh deficit will be just fine once the job creators work their magic. This will make it not a violation or suspension of a rule, only a correction to the numbers those CBO nerds came up with.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:26 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


THIS ISN'T EVEN TRUE. Millennials have similar average job tenure compared to prior generations at the same ages.

It's really weird to see this re writing of history live. When I was a kid, in the late 70's early 80's, the constant talk was that there was no such thing as a steady job any more, and the middle class dream of getting a job and buying a house was gone. This was from endless articles, TV shows and adult advice. And it was true. I know few people my age that have ever had a steady job their whole lives, or bought a house before their late 30's or 40's.

But according to the internet we lived in Ozzie and Harriet. I don't know how this myth got traction.
posted by bongo_x at 1:36 PM on November 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


WaPo op-ed, Catherine Rampell, If the tax bill is so great, why does the GOP keep lying about it? In a just world, McConnell admitting to lying (er, "misspeaking") when he said the middle class would all get tax cuts, when in reality many people will see tax increases, would be a front page story nationwide.

Crooked Media, Brian Beutler, Donald Trump and the Russian Dog That Didn’t Bark:
Both of these tropes are misguided. As we await legal determinations about which Trump campaign officials and allies committed what crimes, we need simple and consistent language for discussing the political offense of conspiring or conniving or cooperating with a hostile foreign intelligence service to subvert an election, irrespective of its criminality. One of those other “C” words may seem less politically charged than “collusion,” but “collusion” is basically fine, and, more importantly, we are well-past the point at which it’s safe to say the Trump campaign did indeed collude with the Russians. We just don’t yet know the full extent of it.

The reluctance to state plainly that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government now verges on misinformation. Most news outlets will go no further than stating that the Trump campaign exhibited willingness to collude with Russia, but that smoking gun evidence of collusion remains elusive. To illustrate just how skewed an interpretation this is, it’s helpful to look back at episodes in recent history when stolen materials became matters of controversy in campaign politics.
NYT, Patricia Cohen, Haste on Tax Measures May Leave a Trail of Loopholes. In which rushing through a massive tax bill is a catastrophically bad idea, because nobody has time to analyze really these complex changes, and they're creating massive new loopholes. McCain says this is regular order though, so nothing matters.

Meduza, Oleg Kashin, When Russians stopped believing in the Western media. This is Kashin's op-ed for independent Russian media, translated into English, on how English media has covered Russia recently, arguing that Western media has been careless and shattered their remaining credibility in Russia. Well worth reading.

Jay Rosen, Pricing access to the Trump White House: the strange case of the Times social media policy. Broadly summarized: the Times is cracking down on its reporters' social media so it doesn't annoy the White House, they can continue to do its shitty access journalism, and Trump doesn't stop calling up Maggie Haberman.
posted by zachlipton at 1:38 PM on November 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


Bonus link: Rep. Louie Gohmert showed this chart at the Sessions hearing, arguing that, well I don't know the thing is a work of madness, something about Obama being awful. You have to see this thing.

Bonus bonus link: Steven Bradbury, who helped write the torture memos in 2005, was nominated to be General Counsel to the Department of Transportation. McCain and Paul are now opposed; it's unclear if they're going to let the nomination go down or have Pence cast a tie-breaking vote.

Bonus bonus bonus link: Confused about Medicaid cuts and PAYGO? I am, to the extent that I told Justinian the wrong thing a few minutes ago (hangs head in shame, I am very sorry). Tara Golshan explains it all.

I am done now. Thank you.
posted by zachlipton at 1:48 PM on November 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


In related news, NPR continues to piss me off with its coverage of current events. At the beginning of today's 4PM broadcast the teaser was for the proposed special counsel investigation into the Uranium One deal and contributions to the Clinton Foundation.

It's a very subtle spin, because if you listen to the full broadcast, the actual piece was fine, a fair assessment of the situation, but really? You're going to lead with Clinton instead of Session's testimony on Russia?
posted by jeremias at 1:51 PM on November 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


Bonus link: Rep. Louie Gohmert showed this chart at the Sessions hearing, arguing that, well I don't know the thing is a work of madness, something about Obama being awful. You have to see this thing.

That is... something else.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:53 PM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


That Gohmert chart is one bad haircut away from being an "ALIENS" meme.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:55 PM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


Rep. Louie Gohmert showed this chart at the Sessions hearing

That's going to be my new murder_wall.gif
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:55 PM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


Yeah, I think the chart needed more red yarn and push pins.
posted by mosk at 1:57 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


All it's missing is BENGHAZI being in acrostic form. Someone really dropped the ball in his office. Acrostics=slam dunk.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:57 PM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


Comey is a yellow diamond and a gray oval in different parts of the Gohmert chart, and I'm going to be up all night wondering what that means.

We also learn that Ben Rhodes is the person who links Barrack Obama to Barrack Obama, but at least Obama gets to be a gray oval in both places.
posted by zachlipton at 1:57 PM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


Ghomert's chart is incomplete without making clear how PEPE SILVIA factors into the affair.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 1:58 PM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


That chart looks like a decal you'd find stuck to a little plastic TV screen in a Playmobil 'Business Meeting' playset meant to indicate a slide from an important PowerPoint presentation.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:59 PM on November 14, 2017 [57 favorites]


In related news, NPR continues to piss me off with its coverage of current events. At the beginning of today's 4PM broadcast the teaser was for the proposed special counsel investigation into the Uranium One deal and contributions to the Clinton Foundation.

I considered and rejected participating in their last fund drive because of their coverage--too many questions without follow ups, acting as if Donald Trump isn't a raging lunatic and we aren't living in an upsidedowniverse. I don't need expect them to run around shrieking 'are you fucking kidding me?' (I'll cover that part!) but I do need them to understand the grave seriousness of the situation and they seem to be covering it as if the worst thing in the world would be for them to question the mental capacity of the president of the United States. As if it would be impolite.

The worst thing is he's a fucking lunatic, and that's already where we are.

I subscribed to WaPo.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:01 PM on November 14, 2017 [26 favorites]


I was like, don't look the chart, don't look at the chart, and then I went and looked at the chart. I was out of all sorts of evens, but apparently I had some chart-related evens to lose.
posted by angrycat at 2:02 PM on November 14, 2017 [31 favorites]


See also: any MeFi thread from 2006, 2008, and even 2012 expressing excitement over the always-imminent "fracturing" of the GOP. How accurate were those predictions?

Well, given that they ended up with Donald J. Trump as their presidential candidate, and given that even with control of the executive and comfortable majorities in both houses of the legislature they still can't seem get their agenda through due to irreconcilable differences between intraparty factions, and given that prominent party members are openly feuding with other while others blatantly opine that their motivation for passing certain legislation is to keep the big donations coming ... I guess I'd say not entirely inaccurate?
posted by contraption at 2:02 PM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


Dear lord. If you poured manure into one end of that chart, you could get clean potable water out the other. And the two ends are the same thing. It’s just...I mean...There are no evens left to can.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:03 PM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


Amateur hour stuff. The space devoted to the duplicate Comeys and Susans Rice could have been used for Roy Moore's accusers.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:04 PM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


still can't seem get their agenda through

Only because it turned into a massive shitfight. They only need one vote going their way for it to all go through.
posted by Talez at 2:07 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Bonus link: Rep. Louie Gohmert showed this chart at the Sessions hearing, arguing that, well I don't know the thing is a work of madness, something about Obama being awful. You have to see this thing.
There… there’s no direct link between Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton on that chart.
posted by mbrubeck at 2:15 PM on November 14, 2017 [64 favorites]


There… there’s no direct link between Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton on that chart.

they only have contact via email server
they only express their love by having hits put on each other's enemies
AND we'd have proof if all the emails hadn't been deleted
posted by halation at 2:17 PM on November 14, 2017 [30 favorites]


There are two ovals labeled “Obama,” and Ben Rhodes is connected to both of them.
posted by mbrubeck at 2:20 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


Steven Bradbury, who helped write the torture memos in 2005, was nominated to be General Counsel to the Department of Transportation. McCain and Paul are now opposed; it's unclear if they're going to let the nomination go down or have Pence cast a tie-breaking vote.

Or they can just confirm him anyway. Yet another thing that should be a scandal in its own right, that we'll all just move on from, like school shootings are now.
posted by zachlipton at 2:20 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


Most news outlets will go no further than stating that the Trump campaign exhibited willingness to collude with Russia, but that smoking gun evidence of collusion remains elusive. To illustrate just how skewed an interpretation this is, it’s helpful to look back at episodes in recent history

Yes. Corporate news controls information to feed profits, not public good, and Trump is the latest glory. We will continue this fucked up spiral until they get their shit straight. For the record, as we know, this seriously borks democracy. NYT and WaPo, for whatever good they do, got us here with this act.

NPR, what's wrong with you. What happened to you?
posted by petebest at 2:24 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


There… there’s no direct link between Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton on that chart.

Yes! Accurately connoting the longstanding right-wing shibboleth that theirs is a SHAM MARRIAGE.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:27 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


Joint letter from all the medical groups* saying don't mess with the mandate.

(you may be having deja vu from a few months ago)

* America's Health Insurance Plans
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Hospital Association
American Medical Association
Blue Cross Blue Shield Association
Federation of American Hospitals
posted by Chrysostom at 2:28 PM on November 14, 2017 [23 favorites]


Yes! Accurately connoting the longstanding right-wing shibboleth that theirs is a SHAM MARRIAGE.

what's weird is that there's also no direct link between HRC and Huma Abedin, given that the bizarro-world shibboleth corollary is that they are SECRET LOVERS because FEMINIST DEPRAVITY OBVIOUSLY
posted by halation at 2:31 PM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


Mod note: A few deleted; not every piece of bad news in the US has to appear in this thread. People can go read news websites if they want updates on every bad event.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:33 PM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


That chart looks like a decal you'd find stuck to a little plastic TV screen in a Playmobil 'Business Meeting' playset meant to indicate a slide from an important PowerPoint presentation.

Which is exactly what registers as legit to Trump and Gohmert's base. I can never tell if people like Gohmert are as dumb as their base, or smart enough to just seem smart to their dumbass base. In any other timeline, I'd assume seeming as dumb as their base was political suicide, but...
posted by Rykey at 2:34 PM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


What is the requisite number of shibboleths one must observe to make a batshit flowchart real for the right wing? Do you have to get them all? Is there a certain threshold?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:34 PM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


What is the requisite number of shibboleths one must observe to make a batshit flowchart real for the right wing? Do you have to get them all? Is there a certain threshold?

Call me when you hit MK ULTRA and/or "cheese pizza." (I guess those are sliiiiightly different flavors of rightwing fucknuttery.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:41 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


I love that Rod Rosenstein is on the chart, but the President who (in theory) hand-picked him is not on the chart.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:43 PM on November 14, 2017


Hm, didn't catch this when it apparently happened yesterday:

Protesters disrupt U.S. fossil, nuclear event at climate talks in Germany
Protesters drowned out speeches by White House advisers and business representatives Monday at an event the U.S. government sponsored at the U.N. climate talks in Germany promoting the use of fossil fuels and nuclear energy.

About 200 protesters stood up 10 minutes into the event and began singing an anti-coal song to the tune of "God Bless the U.S.A."
posted by Rykey at 2:46 PM on November 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


NPR, what's wrong with you. What happened to you?

They've been terrified of losing funding after they rightfully canned Juan Williams and Republicans started grumbling about defunding them.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:49 PM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


That chart somehow reminds me of a panel of Family Circus where there is a path that little Billy takes around the neighborhood doing a bunch of random, unconnected things and the only thing that connects the things are little Billy's childish whims
posted by angrycat at 2:50 PM on November 14, 2017 [39 favorites]


They've been terrified of losing funding after they rightfully canned Juan Williams and Republicans started grumbling about defunding them.

don't they have more money than god now thanks to the late missus kroc?
posted by entropicamericana at 2:51 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


I love that Rod Rosenstein is on the chart, but the President who (in theory) hand-picked him is not on the chart.

I wondered about that, too. Hmm. Maybe there's just some special something about that man's name that made Gohmert feel it would be a perfect fit for his Chilling Chart o' Conspiracy?
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:58 PM on November 14, 2017 [18 favorites]


Susan Rice is on there twice.
So is the Obama State Department.
How come DOJ gets a shield but State and Defense don't?
Hillary Clinton isn't connected to Hillary Clinton Emails.
Mueller is connected to Hillary Clinton Secret Server twice.
There are also two Muellers.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:00 PM on November 14, 2017 [37 favorites]


What is Fast & Furious on that chart? Please tell me it's a movie reference.
posted by greermahoney at 3:07 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


It's a scandal involving the ATF and guns and the Mexican border. They called it F&F because the central figures were in a car racing club or something.
posted by Justinian at 3:10 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


Wiki on F&F.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:10 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


Fast and Furious was that brilliant ATF plan to send a whole whack of guns to Mexico and track them, but they forgot to switch the trackers on.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:11 PM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


"Fast & Furious" was a spectacularly ill-advised operation DOJ ran in order to try and track illegally sold guns that investigators believed were being funneled to Mexican drug cartels by allowing the illegal sales to go forward and then tracking the movement of the weapons into Mexico. Problem was that (a) this relied on tracking the movement of specific guns through an organized crime network, which proved to be quite difficult; and (b) while DOJ was letting these guns percolate through the cartels, they were shooting people whose deaths were then at least partially attributable to this investigation. One of the people thus shot was a US Border Patrol agent, and that's how you get a scandal.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:11 PM on November 14, 2017 [21 favorites]


Wiki on F&F

Man, it was sorta great when they totally disconnected with reality somewhere in F&F3:Tokyo Drift. You can spot where the producers, directors, and writers said, "Fuck it..."
posted by mikelieman at 3:15 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


So. Howabout that big announcement, eh? Man that was wild.

I think they're just going with the snap-on hair now.
posted by petebest at 3:25 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


There are also two Muellers

This was the ill-fated third feature in the Chinatown movie trilogy (Chinatown; The Two Jakes ; The Two Muellers). I think it got as far as being story-boarded, but then the studio killed it.
posted by mosk at 3:26 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


(Someone already made the Pepe Silva comment because someone always beats me to that so I have edited this.)

Did we ever find out what Trump's bigly announcement was about? The one he mentioned on Twitter?
posted by asteria at 3:26 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Ugh that is just petty fucking nonsense (flag size and rules for flying thereof) that proves he is there for reasons other than working to make the Dept. of Interior work as well as possible.

That, but also he's got it all backwards. Less is more. You don't want to get a thousand phone calls to show you're important, you want to get none (you have people for that.) You don't want your title on your business card to be all Supreme Division Commander, Executive Branch, bullshit bullshit; that's for people that need to specify. You want something understated like "Department of Interior" and everyone can just fucking know you mean ALL of it. You don't want a ridiculous flashy-blinks Las Vegas uniform like Generalissimo Clarke, you want no uniform. Plain suit. (Even better, business cas, because F you, I wear what I want.) No big-ass flag. When you're important, people either know you're in the building or not, that's their problem.

His big attempts to look impressive just signal to everyone he's middle-tier.
posted by ctmf at 3:31 PM on November 14, 2017 [50 favorites]


Apparently public shaming can still do some good: Trump appointee resigns after Pro Publica reports that he'd been put in charge of a loan program that he had previously taken a loan out from and then defaulted on it.

Well done, Pro Publica!
posted by suelac at 3:32 PM on November 14, 2017 [93 favorites]


ELECTIONS NEWS

** 2018 House:
-- Mentioned upthread PPP poll shows Dems performing very well in a group of swing-to-reach districts. They had polled a separate group of swing districts last month; you can't draw direct comparisons since they weren't the same districts, but last month the races were much closer.

-- New generic ballot polls:
* Quinnipiac: Dems +13
* Ipsos: Dems +10
* Marist: Dems +15
538 generic average is Dems +11.3. The understanding is that +10 would make Dems feel pretty solid about flipping. Nate Silver's back of the envelope for +15 is 50-70 seats flip (Dems need to pick up 23 seats). We also note in passing that that PPP poll had strong negatives for Paul Ryan.

-- Gonzales meets with 16 Dem candidates, finds them generally impressive.
** Odds & ends:
-- That Quinnipiac poll shows Trump approval at 35/58, near his record low.

-- TNR piece on Ben Jealous, MD gubernatorial candidate. It's got a lot of "whither the NAACP?" (Jealous was head until 2013), but of general interest.

-- Interesting developments in PA, where Braddock mayor John Fetterman has thrown his hat in the ring for lieutenant governor (In PA, there is a separate primary for LG, then the LG and governor run as a ticket). You might remember Fetterman for his primary run for Senate last year, and for stuff like being on Bourdain's show. He's a self-described socialist but with a gritty vibe that could play well in rural areas (Braddock is near Pittsburgh). Governor Wolf is favored next year, but Fetterman could really bring some juice to the ticket.
=> Reminder, three special elections in OK tonight, plus ABQ mayor. Results this evening.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:39 PM on November 14, 2017 [36 favorites]


Oh, I forgot to tell you folks about my latest project. It's a stupid internet thing that is of no value to society whatsoever, and I'm very pleased with it.

Announcing @NotEvenAWiki. It's just a Twitter bot that retweets everyone who points out that WikiLeaks isn't even a real wiki. That's it. Nothing more than needling Julian Assange for running a fake wiki. But sometimes you just have to take a stand.
posted by zachlipton at 3:39 PM on November 14, 2017 [49 favorites]


He said the announcement would be when he gets back to DC, and that doesn't happen until 10:45 tonight.
posted by diogenes at 3:40 PM on November 14, 2017


10:45 tonight? Just in time for the Colbert writers to do an update.
posted by jointhedance at 3:46 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Hoo boy that chart. Looks like Gohmert is trying to communicate with the Upside Down.
posted by Lyme Drop at 3:51 PM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


Guys, he said the date and time were TBA. It probably won't be tonight. Who the fuck knows with this guy though.
posted by Justinian at 3:51 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


We also note in passing that that PPP poll had strong negatives for Paul Ryan.

If Paul Ryan loses his suburban! seat I'll do a happy dance.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:54 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


Are we seriously falling for the "Donald Trump will give a major announcement" BS that gave us so much primetime cable news footage of an empty podium during the campaign?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 3:55 PM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


It's just a Twitter bot that retweets everyone who points out that WikiLeaks isn't even a real wiki.

He just picked it because it was a buzzword with vaguely positive connotations? Like if he started 10 years earlier it'd have been eLeaks? If he's started it 30 years earlier it'd have been Leak-o-tron?
posted by leotrotsky at 3:57 PM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


Guys, he said the date and time were TBA. It probably won't be tonight. Who the fuck knows with this guy though.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that it would happen tonight. I was just pointing out that he wasn't even back yet.
posted by diogenes at 3:57 PM on November 14, 2017


Right, he's gonna drag it out and then it could be anything from opening a new golf course in Japan to pre-emptive military strikes on North Korea. Or it could get cancelled.
posted by Justinian at 3:58 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Are we seriously falling for the "Donald Trump will give a major announcement" BS

A little bit I guess, but it doesn't really matter. Trump is permanently camped out in my brain regardless.
posted by diogenes at 3:59 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


He just picked it because it was a buzzword with vaguely positive connotations? Like if he started 10 years earlier it'd have been eLeaks? If he's started it 30 years earlier it'd have been Leak-o-tron?

And, were he starting it today, it'd be called the Leakchain.
posted by acb at 4:01 PM on November 14, 2017 [18 favorites]


5 years ago it'd have been Lkr.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:04 PM on November 14, 2017 [21 favorites]


Like if he started 10 years earlier it'd have been eLeaks?

And if he'd started 7 years before that his handlers could have gotten him a .su account.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:12 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


The only correct response to that chart.

Update: some hero Charlie-fied the chart.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:14 PM on November 14, 2017 [19 favorites]


Wikileaks was a wiki when it started.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:19 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


wicki leakers leak
wiki leaks leaky wikis
it's the leaky wickis
wicki leakers leak
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:27 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


It's clear that if any of the principles Murkowski, Collins, and McCain spoke about in the health care votes are real they will kill the Senate version of the tax bill.

I expect it to pass.
posted by Justinian at 4:31 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


Me too. Bloomberg's take on the state of play is a good read.

Murkowski and Collins are worried about premiums, but offering them Alexander-Murray in a separate vote may help get them to yes, maybe. And the pressure on them if they're blocking not just healthcare but all of taxes will be enormous.

So, um, call your reps, please.

Oh, and one rep wants changes to protect the precious tax-exempt bonds for the Texas Rangers (the House bill, interestingly enough, imposes federal taxes on stadium bonds).
posted by zachlipton at 4:41 PM on November 14, 2017 [7 favorites]


Metafilter: I was like, don't look the chart, don't look at the chart, and then I went and looked at the chart.
posted by hapaxes.legomenon at 4:45 PM on November 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


Oh those Rangers; I was thinking policing was financed by bonds and was like Whoa, that's f'd up.
posted by Mitheral at 4:46 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Can we set up like a gofundme to emotionally support whatever poor staffer was tasked with making that chart and thereby becoming a lifelong laughingstock?

Or legend, I guess.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:48 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


were he starting it today, it'd be called the Leakchain

"CryptoMiners", probably.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:48 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


What precisely is the point of Alexander-Murray if you've already busted the marketplace by repealing the mandate? It seems like that would be even more expensive since the subsidies you'd have to pay for the people who remain would be so large.
posted by Justinian at 5:07 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


If they repeal the mandate I would encourage all Democratic senators to vote no on any "compromise" on health care in the future which does not re-impose the mandate. The Republicans own health care, don't let them try to postpone the reckoning.
posted by Justinian at 5:08 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


I loved the chart, personally. I just pretended it was a subway map of Obamatown.

The dotted line between Eric Holder Circle and Loretta Lynch Circle is, of course, a hyperloop
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:12 PM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


Reference for all you young 'uns, to better appreciate what Atom Eye just did there.
posted by Mchelly at 5:12 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Oh, and one rep wants changes to protect the precious tax-exempt bonds for the Texas Rangers

Well given that Texas Rangers baseball is essentially a proxy for Tha Dubz, it'll be interesting to see how the Dub-shat-upon react to that request.

Incidentally, that article zachliptonlex linked says the Rangers' new stadium is expected to cost one-Billion-with-a-goddamned-B dollars. America's priorities are a joke.
posted by petebest at 5:14 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


Funny, I would have thought bread would be more cost-effective than circuses.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 5:19 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Money's no object.
posted by kingless at 5:24 PM on November 14, 2017


Metafilter: I was like, don't look the chart, don't look at the chart, and then I went and looked at the chart.

If you looked at the chart you have seven days to show it to someone else, or Louis Gohmert will climb out of the internet and then you get added as a circle on the chart.
posted by um at 5:38 PM on November 14, 2017 [69 favorites]


So, there was a quick dismissal of that Buzzfeed story about Russian money sent to their embassies for "2016 elections." But Ben Wittes (the tick tick tick guy) points out that there may be something there - Citi reported them to the FBI as suspicious, and the FBI at least found it worthwhile following up on.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:39 PM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


Tonight’s Twitter HQ projection, along with a call to ban Trump.

The guy who does this has been at it at least weekly lately.
posted by zachlipton at 6:21 PM on November 14, 2017 [16 favorites]


Man, the tax bill was horribad already and now they’ve gone and stuffed an individual mandate repeal into it?

I’m scared what tomorrow will bring.
posted by notyou at 6:31 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


ELECTION RESULT

GOP HOLD in OK Senate 45, 57-43. District was Trump 67-27 and Romney 70-30.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:32 PM on November 14, 2017 [19 favorites]


I feel like these charts are a glimpse into the alternate universe Fox is beaming from. We know Hillary is president and has been since 2016 at least. But she may have been president before that, maybe in power-sharing triumvirate with Bill and Obama where they take turns being Augustus? Unclear.

The reason Hillary and Bill are never connected directly to each other in either chart is that in this universe they may not be married any longer. Maybe they never married and Hillary married someone else with name Clinton?

I think the next chart will really blow the mystery of Earth 1 wide open.
posted by asteria at 6:47 PM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


I feel like these charts are a glimpse into the alternate universe Fox is beaming from. We know Hillary is president...

HOW DO I GET THERE?
posted by Behemoth at 6:50 PM on November 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


Portal gun.

Or, a fifth of scotch and a handful of shrooms.



I kid, I kid.
posted by darkstar at 6:54 PM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


If we figure out where the timelines diverged, we can get there!

(The other chart I mention being Sean Hannity's.)
posted by asteria at 6:57 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


Wait, so Hillary and George Clinton are married in the real timeline?? This groupon I got really fuckin blows.
posted by riverlife at 7:05 PM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


ELECTION RESULT

Dem GAIN for mayor of Albuquerque, NM.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:05 PM on November 14, 2017 [52 favorites]


lalex, if you are going to steal my links, I shall have to ask you to step outside.

Yeah, final in SD-37:

Dem 1967
Rep 1894

This was a Trump 67-27 and for Romney 69-31 district that the old rep won 56-40 last fall.

Off to google Oklahoma recount laws.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:16 PM on November 14, 2017 [32 favorites]


wait wait wait, two precincts are showing out still
posted by Chrysostom at 7:16 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


538 breaks down the voting blocks in the House GOP & which Reps could save us from the tax bill. We need 23 of them to break assuming all Dems hold fast. These House Republicans Could Cause Problems For The Tax Bill.
posted by scalefree at 7:24 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


(100% kidding, of course!)
posted by Chrysostom at 7:24 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Now it's 27 precincts reporting, still Dem ahead.
posted by nat at 7:26 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


I guess the Dem has declared victory, but the state website still shows one precinct out, so I'm going to hold on a few.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:27 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


Republicans in the VA House-28 want to throw away 55 soldiers’ absentee ballots because a staffer picked them up from a PO box on Wednesday. rather than Tuesday.

Republican Bob Thomas leads by 84 votes.

Republicans hate democracy, that is an absolutely inarguable fact.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:28 PM on November 14, 2017 [55 favorites]


ELECTION RESULT

GOP HOLD in OK House 76, 68-32. District went for Trump 65-30 and Romney 71-29.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:29 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


Even if the Democrat loses that Oklahoma 37 race (seriously, 51-49 in Oklahoma?), the GOP should be shaking in its boots.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:30 PM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


On that VA HD-28, you may want to look at tweets tonight from VA Dem political strategist Ben Tribbett. Sounds like there's some complications here.

Also, note that the Stafford County BOE is 2-1 Dems.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:32 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Pete King is an absolute garbage human being, and every time I think about him, I want to gag.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:32 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


FelliniBlank: "Even if the Democrat loses that Oklahoma 37 race (seriously, 51-49 in Oklahoma?), the GOP should be shaking in its boots."

If she holds on, it will be the 4th Dem flip in OK this year.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:33 PM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


Dotard forgets where he is again
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:34 PM on November 14, 2017 [15 favorites]


*hums Pinky & The Brain theme* Yeeeeessssssssss, soon enough, we'll be renaming it the People's Republic of Tornadostan.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:36 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Senate just dropped the revised tax bill (PDF) at 10:30 at night. Some changes:
-individual mandate repeal
-permanent 20% corp rate
-passthru changes
-Child Tax Credit to $2000
-rates on middle brackets inch down
Technically, the individual mandate still exists, but the amount you pay for not having insurance is reduced to $0. As with previous versions, many tax cuts for individuals sunset after a few years, while the corporate cuts persist.
posted by zachlipton at 7:37 PM on November 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


ELECTION RESULT

Dem GAIN in OK Senate 37, 50-50. District went for Trump 67-27 and for Romney 69-31.

Dem 2234
Rep 2203

A cursory look at Oklahoma recount laws seems to indicate the loser can ask for a recount at will, see what happens.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:37 PM on November 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


Oooh, I didn't realize OK 37 was half of Tulsa and the western suburbs (and West Tulsa is usually the most conservative Bible thumper part of the city. It's like going back in time when crossing the Arkansas River). I'm so rarely proud of my hometown. But tonight I'm smiling.
posted by downtohisturtles at 7:38 PM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


That's a brutal result for the Republicans in the OK Senate.

I'm surprised the Senate's bill qualifies under Byrd even with the mandate repeal with a permanent 20% corp rate. Unless they really are just gonna ignore the rules.
posted by Justinian at 7:39 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


OK Dem results tonight vs Clinton results:

HD-76 +2
SD-45 +16
SD-37 +23

And the ABQ mayoral was a romp, as well. Well over the Dem registration advantage in the city.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:42 PM on November 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


Oh. Virtually all of the individual rate cuts and deductions are sunset. Only the corp rate cut is permanent. L-O-fucking-L.
posted by Justinian at 7:47 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


More Senate tax bill lowlights from Richard Rubin, including:
The bill would set the individual tax cuts, including the repeal of the alternative minimum tax and the higher standard deduction, to expire on Dec. 31, 2025. That could let Republicans meet a deficit test to pass the bill without Democratic votes. But Democrats will pounce on the contrast between permanent corporate rate cuts and temporary individual cuts.
All the individual cuts are gone in a few years (except for, say, the estate tax, which only helps millionaires). Corporate tax cuts last forever.
posted by zachlipton at 7:49 PM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


All right, the bottom line summary of the Senate's tax bill is that it raises taxes on much of the middle class and blows up the individual health insurance marketplace in order to fund a permanent cut in the corporate tax rate to 20%. That's it. That's the bill.
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on November 14, 2017 [53 favorites]


> Virtually all of the individual rate cuts and deductions are sunset. Only the corp rate cut is permanent. L-O-fucking-L.

And don't miss:
> Child Tax Credit to $2000.
> Permanent repeal of the Estate tax.

Why do Republicans hate middle class families with kids? Why are they making the upper middle class pay for tax cuts for corporations and billionaires?

How on earth are they expecting to pass this mess?
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:51 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


The 1% own 50.1% of the world's wealth per Credit Suisse (link goes to NY Post)
posted by petebest at 7:55 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Get out your protestin' thumb and dial the Senate switchboard at 202-224-3121 tomorrow morning.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:55 PM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


I believe the estate tax cuts sunset as well. Seriously, virtually everything except the corp tax rate cut and the child tax credit thing expires on 12/31/25 AFAIK.
posted by Justinian at 7:55 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


How on earth are they expecting to pass this mess?

I believe they are expecting to pass this mess by getting 50 yes votes + Pence in the Senate. I believe they are correct.
posted by Justinian at 7:56 PM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


That's it. That's the bill.

Oh cmon, they also repeal the Johnson Amendment and and define personhood!
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:57 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


Yes, Jared the Subway sandwich pedo is declaring himself a sovereign citizen

Also that he didn't travel over state lines for the PURPOSE of committing the crime, he just happened to be traveling for another reason WHEN he committed the crime, so the federal court did not have subject matter jurisdiction to convict him. "pro se" - that explains it.
posted by ctmf at 7:58 PM on November 14, 2017


(The other chart I mention being Sean Hannity's.)

DysPepsi Blue. The Twitter caption contest is pretty choice, though.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:59 PM on November 14, 2017


Here's the JCT Score on it. Net total for the 10-year budget window is -$1.4T, which blows the deficit the hell up, but it's less than the -$1.5T they gave themselves to pass under reconciliation. That's before the interest costs that result from the aforementioned blowing the deficit up.

I still think they pass it, but the mind-boggling stupidity of attaching healthcare to it is the one thing that makes me think it could all blow up. Please call your reps in the morning.
posted by zachlipton at 8:01 PM on November 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


How on earth are they expecting to pass this mess
Their donors are in revolt, and it’s increasingly looking like they might not be able to pass anything after the 2018 elections. They need to pass something or the pretty, pretty Koch money dries up, so they’re going to try to pass it, no matter how unpopular it may be. I really hope I’m wrong, but I think this atrocity has a chance of passing.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:04 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


T.D. Strange: "Republicans in the VA House-28 want to throw away 55 soldiers’ absentee ballots because a staffer picked them up from a PO box on Wednesday. rather than Tuesday.

Republican Bob Thomas leads by 84 votes.

Republicans hate democracy, that is an absolutely inarguable fact."

So, that's a story that seems pretty misleading:

* Thomas leads by 82 votes after the provisionals were gone through today.
* It is not clear how many of the 55 are from military people (not that that is actually relevant).
* The count here is Stafford County. Stafford has multiple Delegate districts in it, it is not clear how many of these votes would be for HD-28.
* The BOE for Stafford is two Democrats, one Republican.
* There seems to be some legit lack of clarity on when the ballots in question arrived, according to a Democratic state senator. The board seemed to realize that they may have screwed up, but felt that state law did not leave them the flexibility to count the votes at this point.


To be clear, I'm not saying the board made the correct decision, necessarily. But I don't think we've got a clear moustache twirling case of villainy here. Nor do I think it's clear that it would swing the race, even if (unlikely) all the ballots were in HD-28, and (unlikely) all of them voted for the Democrat Cole.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:05 PM on November 14, 2017 [12 favorites]


So my guess on Trump's major statement from the WH upon his return is that he's going to call off the whole Russian interference investigation because he asked Putin and Putin said he didn't interfere, so he's solved the matter. Runner up is that he's firing Jeffy.
posted by perhapses at 8:06 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


NYT: Steve Louro, a Republican donor who hosted an event for Donald J. Trump at his Long Island home last year, abruptly quit his post as regional finance chairman for the state’s Republican Party on Tuesday over objections to the Republican-led tax bill advancing through Congress.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:12 PM on November 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


One of the worst parts of the tax bill is that they switch the individual rates to be indexed to the chained CPI (a slower rate of inflation). That's going to hit squarely at the middle class.

I, for one, cannot wait to see the distributional tables CBO puts out on this (tables showing how much of the cuts/increases go to different income levels). They're going to be hideous.
posted by zachlipton at 8:16 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


How on earth are they expecting to pass this mess

They must not be expecting to, or it's a piece of "hey, we tried!" political theater? I mean, they took an irredeemably awful, economy-trashing bill that nobody in the populace and precious few factions in the GOP Congress can support and then . . . made it even worse by adding back in the thing that already previously made large swaths of the general public shoot death rays and flames out of their eyes in the direction of the Capitol.

They had to have seen the poll numbers on the amount of people in Virginia last week who voted specifically on preserving health care. This just seems more self-destructive than every other self-destructive thing they've already done this year. I guess they truly believe that between the gerrymander and the bags of donor dollars, they cannot lose, despite all the recent evidence to the contrary.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:17 PM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


Please call your reps in the morning.

I call about something just about every day. It's been a hell of a long day today though, and now it's late; hope me with a starter script?
posted by perspicio at 8:17 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


The evil genius in their plan is this; they sunset all the individual rate cuts and the increases in deductions but make the corp rates permanent. That allows them to claim it doesn't increase the deficit in the out years and thus passes the Byrd rule. Then, if the Democrats in 2024 or whatever don't vote to make the rate cuts for individuals permanent, which destroys the national debt worse than this bill, the Republicans will scream and scream that Democrats are raising taxes on the middle class by not extending the Republican cuts when the sunsets were necessary not to explode the deficit!
posted by Justinian at 8:19 PM on November 14, 2017 [9 favorites]


They must not be expecting to, or it's a piece of "hey, we tried!" political theater?

I wish I had your guys optimism. I think they are gonna ram it through no matter the cost.
posted by Justinian at 8:20 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


> Then, if the Democrats in 2024 or whatever don't vote to make the rate cuts for individuals permanent, which destroys the national debt worse than this bill, the Republicans will scream and scream that Democrats are raising taxes on the middle class by not extending the Republican cuts when the sunsets were necessary not to explode the deficit!

It's like deja vu all over again.
But these articles almost never explain why the Bush tax cuts are expiring. The answer is pretty obvious—they're expiring because the law was written with a sunset provision in place. But why do that? It seems like an obvious question to ask. But reporters tend not to ask it because everyone who follows American politics closely thinks that we already know. The tax cuts were written with a sunset in place in order to disguise their true cost in a 10-year budget window. But as far as I know, the authors never actually said that on the record and still haven't said it today. But it seems like a natural issue to raise. After all, if the tax cuts only looked prudent because of scoring window games that constitutes a strong prima facie case for scaling them down.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:22 PM on November 14, 2017 [19 favorites]


I’m saying that as a middle-income American, I’m happy to pay my fair share of taxes, but I find it really galling that this bill would raise the taxes of people like me to give a tax cut to millionaires and billionaires, and I hope my reps will remember that they represent their constituents, not their donors, and vote against it. It’s not much of a script, but I think it gets the job done.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:24 PM on November 14, 2017 [35 favorites]


I wish I had your guys optimism. I think they are gonna ram it through no matter the cost.

Well, they're going to try, like they did with all the other 2017 bullshit. Possibly they'll succeed. But coming up with a total Screw You Suburbs bill like this nonsense in light of the recent Virginia vengeful voting demographics is indicative of a (perhaps unconscious) death wish. As pissed as the electorate already is, how do they not get eviscerated over this in 2018?
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:25 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


By cheatin'.
posted by perspicio at 8:28 PM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


On that VA HD-28, you may want to look at tweets tonight from VA Dem political strategist Ben Tribbett. Sounds like there's some complications here.

There's a very good piece of advice in some of his tweets on this:
By the way, I hear more ballots than the difference in HD-94 have arrived since election day and will go uncounted- because House Dem Caucus was pushing absentee voting so late in cycle that some Dem voters didn't get ballots back in time.

[...]

The lesson from this is you should never push mail absentee within two weeks of election day- at that point in person absentee only.
More ballots than the difference! This could have gone another way with better strategy!
posted by jason_steakums at 8:30 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


A) True, that was dumb, and b) the HD-94 margin is 10 votes. That definitely could still flip in the recount.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:33 PM on November 14, 2017


I just think it's a neat note, you don't think about the difference that kind of timing can make if you haven't been into the nuts and bolts of GOTV efforts. Little notes like that can make a big difference, especially in small local races to build the Dem back bench!
posted by jason_steakums at 8:35 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


I think in the past, Democrats assumed their voters were less likely to get to the polls, and that might not be true this time, because there’s so much more enthusiasm on the Dem side. It’s possible they’ll need to rethink their strategy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:39 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: May God be with the people of Sutherland Springs, Texas. The FBI and Law Enforcement has arrived.

Uh, I think something got stuck in his drafts folder and he just accidentally posted it upon arriving home, grammatical error and all.
posted by zachlipton at 8:40 PM on November 14, 2017 [17 favorites]


Oh, hey, we also picked up a seat on Albuquerque City Council.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:44 PM on November 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


Some people on twitter (not randos) think that with all the sunsets and the chained CPI, when this bill is scored either nearly all or ALL individuals will be scored as having a tax increase in 2027.

So this Senate bill may well increase taxes on 100% of Americans in order to fund permanent corporate tax cuts.
posted by Justinian at 8:44 PM on November 14, 2017 [19 favorites]


Jesus... I know it's tiring, but imagine if Obama had done that.
posted by codacorolla at 8:44 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


zachlipton: Uh, I think something got stuck in his drafts folder and he just accidentally posted it upon arriving home, grammatical error and all.

He posted a similar one after it. I think these are various tweet options that his staff composed for him while he was overseas and he's accidentally posting them instead of deleting them.
posted by bluecore at 8:55 PM on November 14, 2017 [14 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: May God be with the people of Sutherland Springs, Texas. The FBI and Law Enforcement has arrived.

I know that it has been said many times before and will no doubt be said many more times before this is all said and done, but the man is so, so, so, so, so unbelievably stupid.
posted by vverse23 at 8:58 PM on November 14, 2017 [40 favorites]


From that Omarosa article linked above - which is worth the read! (emphasis mine)
Ultimately, in my quest to better understand what, exactly, Omarosa does each day, I learned little more than the fact that she was getting married. I reached out to then deputy press secretary Sarah Sanders to find out more about the bridal luncheon—whether it was normal, in the middle of a workday, for a staffer to use the White House for a personal event? Did taxpayers, or Omarosa herself foot the bill?

“I have no idea… I will try to track her down,” Sanders responded. On Friday, a senior White House official emailed: “She did not have a bridal lunch but did invite her bridesmaids to have lunch with her in the navy mess which all commissioned officers are allowed to do.”
How is a "bridesmaids lunch" NOT a "bridal luncheon"? I know there's a ton of flaming garbage going on, but it's this stuff, paying someone to do nothing(?), making up bullshit distinctions, etc that are driving me bananas. We are PAYING this person!! I laughed literally for about a minute straight at this insanity, only to keep from crying.
posted by Crystalinne at 9:00 PM on November 14, 2017 [38 favorites]


A. Are the FBI and Law Enforcement agents of God? Discuss.
B. Are the FBI and Law Enforcement a singular entity? Discuss.
C. If they have arrived, does it negate the bad things? Discuss.
posted by perhapses at 9:02 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


bluecore: He posted a similar one after it.

Correction: the one he tweeted now is very similar to the one he tweeted the day of the mass shooting (11/5), although I do believe they're both options sent from his staff - the cadence doesn't match his own and has too many commas. Ugh, I hate trying to read the tea leaves of Presidential tweets.
posted by bluecore at 9:04 PM on November 14, 2017


Kremlinology, but about a moron.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:07 PM on November 14, 2017 [10 favorites]


I think we just felt the shockwave from America's collective cringe here in Halifax. All the windows just broke and ships have inexplicably lost buoyancy.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 9:07 PM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


this is probably right, from @oufenix: "Wrong state, you MORON. This is ANOTHER mass shooting! This time at an elementary school in California. 5 dead. Focus, you nitwit."

To be fair when you have so many mass shootings it's fairly easy to get confused about which one is the latest.

Which is a sad reflection on this country.
posted by Talez at 9:09 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


Yeah. Mass shootings are just another sport in America. Every time one happens, it's all about the numbers. How many? Is it a new record?
posted by perhapses at 9:13 PM on November 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


The Cards Against Humanity stunt is interesting, but it's also weird that they just say "a plot of vacant land". So, like an eighth of an acre, or 100 acres?
posted by bongo_x at 9:22 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


The stunt can make some headlines and get some viral attention going, I guess. It's a statement, at least. But I kinda feel like donating that money to a group like the International Rescue Committee or some other refugee aid group might have done some actual good, y'know?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:48 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


They need to pass something or the pretty, pretty Koch money dries up,

Which is the end of the party. It's an existential vote. It wouldn't matter if it was about killing kittens, it will pass.

Or so the big donors would have the R's think. But what else are they going to do, try to invade the democratic party next? They already tried rebuilding from inside with the tea party. They aren't really going to pull the money, because they like the influence they do have.
posted by ctmf at 9:52 PM on November 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


Wisconsin state senator Sheila Harsdorf just resigned to accept Walker's appointment to head DATCP. There will be a special election to fill the WI-10 vacancy (nominations must be in by Nov. 21, primary on Dec. 19, election on Jan. 16.). She crushed her 2016 opponent 63-36, but given the Dem surge, who knows?
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 10:14 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: May God be with the people of Sutherland Springs, Texas. The FBI and Law Enforcement has arrived.

I know parsing his tweets is a ridiculous waste of time but this phrasing really makes it sound like he's warning Sutherland Springs to watch out because the FBI and law enforcement have arrived.
posted by greermahoney at 10:15 PM on November 14, 2017 [69 favorites]


I’m saying that as a middle-income American, I’m happy to pay my fair share of taxes,

Right, and so am I. And we still get to. And the billionaires are not, and they won't have to. It's win/win, really.
posted by ctmf at 10:22 PM on November 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


scaryblackdeath: The stunt can make some headlines and get some viral attention going, I guess. It's a statement, at least. But I kinda feel like donating that money to a group like the International Rescue Committee or some other refugee aid group might have done some actual good, y'know?

Alright then, 30 bucks it is. Gotta diversify, dontcha know.
posted by onehalfjunco at 10:24 PM on November 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


How are Republicans going to simultaneously make the following arguments without exploding in a supernova of hypocrisy:

1) The middle class gets a bunch of tax relief because the sunsets are nothing but an accounting gimmick to pass the Byrd Bath, and they will surely be made permanent.
2) The tax cuts don't explode the debt and deficit because they sunset.

HOW. HOW CAN YOU ARGUE THESE THINGS AT ONCE. OH GOD I THINK I AM BROKEN.
posted by Justinian at 10:28 PM on November 14, 2017 [32 favorites]


How are Republicans going to simultaneously make the following arguments without exploding in a supernova of hypocrisy

They’ve had decades of practice.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:32 PM on November 14, 2017 [20 favorites]


> HOW CAN YOU ARGUE THESE THINGS AT ONCE.

Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:33 PM on November 14, 2017 [25 favorites]


How are Republicans going to simultaneously make the following arguments without exploding in a supernova of hypocrisy:

Little known secret. This is the power source for the Tardis.
posted by michswiss at 10:44 PM on November 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Depressingly widely known fact. This is the power source of the Republican Party
posted by fullerine at 11:10 PM on November 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


Just say No to Make America Potterville Again. Just say No to The Company Store.

Also, if I'm reading this right, many/most people initially get a tax cut, but in the end all people get a tax increase. The end result of an historic tax cut (besides killing healthcare) ... is a tax increase. For all non-corporate persons. Dirty, inefficient humans.

Only sophistry that argues, among other things, This here gentleman need step aside, for he only wishes to molest and rape your children, whereas I a True Patriot will go the full mile and remove their healthcare to murder them dead, can hope to pass excrement this fetid.
posted by riverlife at 11:16 PM on November 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


This is the power source of the Republican Party

You wouldn't know to look at it but it's much smaller on the inside.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:47 AM on November 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


If the tax bill passes, I'm just going to incorporate myself and enjoy the sweet, sweet tax break. Rent? 3 squares? Cat food? To the one regular and/or daily business expenses of being me, ain't that right? And therefore deductible!
posted by carsonb at 12:52 AM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


Re: SHS' statement on Omarosa, where she says " invite her bridesmaids to have lunch with her in the navy mess which all commissioned officers are allowed to do"

But looking over Omarosa's bio, I'm not seeing a Commission in any service?
posted by mikelieman at 1:46 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


If the tax bill passes, I'm just going to incorporate myself and enjoy the sweet, sweet tax break. Rent? 3 squares? Cat food? To the one regular and/or daily business expenses of being me, ain't that right? And therefore deductible!

I already have a sole-prop LLC. So, yeah, I guess I just get a company credit card, and consider myself on-duty 24/7.
posted by mikelieman at 1:50 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


They quickly banned Manigault, director of communications for the Office of the Public Liaison, from posting the pictures online, citing security and ethical concerns.

That's some deliciously stealthy shade right there. You can allllmost feel the stiletto slip in.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:37 AM on November 15, 2017 [20 favorites]


This is like a scene where our hero gets away from the monster with three close calls, only to have the thing get him when he's two inches from safety.
posted by angrycat at 4:12 AM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


Mother Jones: WikiLeaks Set Off an Attack on Our Trump-Russia Project—Right After Messaging Donald Trump Jr. About It
On the evening of September 20, 2016, WikiLeaks sent a direct message on Twitter to Trump Jr.: “A PAC run anti-Trump site putintrump.org is about to launch. The PAC is a recycled pro-Iraq war PAC. We have guessed the password. It is ‘putintrump.’ See ‘About’ for who is behind it. Any comments?”

“Off the record I don’t know who that is, but I’ll ask around,” Trump Jr. responded about 12 hours later. “Thanks.”
posted by PenDevil at 4:20 AM on November 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


I know we want Biden to shut up, but he's shredding on NPR right now. It's an inspirational interview.
posted by angrycat at 4:30 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


“Off the record I don’t know who that is, but I’ll ask around,” Trump Jr. responded about 12 hours later. “Thanks.”

I can't decide which is funnier, that he started off a written communication to a self-proclaimed radical transparency organization by claiming it was "off the record," or that the off the record response was denial of any knowledge of what was being discussed. Maybe he and Spicey had some discussion about just starting every conversation that way, just in case.
posted by solotoro at 4:34 AM on November 15, 2017 [19 favorites]


It's the "if you're a cop you have to tell me" proactive defense.
posted by Roommate at 4:56 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


I know we want Biden to shut up, but he's shredding on NPR right now. It's an inspirational interview.

Personally I don't want him to shut up. I want him to not run. He can be of value, just not be the candidate.
posted by chris24 at 5:02 AM on November 15, 2017 [98 favorites]


^ what chris24 said
posted by Barack Spinoza at 5:03 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


It's the "if you're a cop you have to tell me" proactive defense.

it's like their understanding of legality is operating on the same level as your average third-grader's -- 'off the record' is somehow the functional equivalent of 'punchbuggy no punch back' or 'jinx you owe me a coke'
posted by halation at 5:08 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Biden's NPR interview.

My crystal ball says his role is going to be elder Democrat statesman, something he's awfully good at.
posted by SteveInMaine at 5:13 AM on November 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


How are Republicans going to simultaneously make the following arguments without exploding in a supernova of hypocrisy:

As others have said, it's their jam. But it doesn't work unless there are drooling craven corporate news husks nearby to provide the act a sheen of legitimacy.

Gee pa, it shore would be swell if the press asked better questions.
posted by petebest at 5:24 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Here's my bold prediction: The GOP will become a defunct rump and the two parties will be Corporatist Neoliberal Third Way Business Friendly Democrats and (here's where I'll cop to wishful thinking) actual Liberal Democrats Who Believe In Things Like Labor and Equality and Equity and Maybe Even Unapologetically Leftist From Time to Time.

I'm sure there are plenty of Democrats that will find Koch money irresistible, and none of us should be surprised at how little laundering and ideological cover they'll require to receive it.
posted by whuppy at 5:40 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


We have guessed the password. It is ‘putintrump.’

Please someone tell me they hacked the site and added an account with putintrump as the password. Because otherwise it's almost like they were asking to be hacked.


[Edit]

Nevermind, I read the whole thing and it's just to preview the content not the backend. It's still stupid.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:43 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'm sure there are plenty of Democrats that will find Koch money irresistible, and none of us should be surprised at how little laundering and ideological cover they'll require to receive it.

'Democrats who aren't as left as me are corporate whores who will sell out to evil extremely easily, or are already evil' is a great way to start the thread today.
posted by chris24 at 5:44 AM on November 15, 2017 [25 favorites]


Please someone tell me they hacked the site and added an account with putintrump as the password. Because otherwise it's almost like they were asking to be hacked.

That was just a site password so that the press could get an early look before going public. The actual site itself (in terms of admin, DB etc) remained secure.
posted by PenDevil at 5:45 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Merkel pokerface

I laughed.
posted by mumimor at 5:46 AM on November 15, 2017 [46 favorites]


'Democrats who aren't as left as me are corporate whores who will sell out to evil extremely easily, or are already evil' is a great way to start the thread today.

Honestly wasn't trying to stir shit up but whatever. I've got two Democratic Senators. One nearly convicted and one deep in the pockets of fin and pharm. I voted for them, but don't hold any illusions about their integrity.
posted by whuppy at 5:50 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


'Democrats who aren't as left as me are corporate whores who will sell out to evil extremely easily, or are already evil' is a great way to start the thread today.

It all depends on how evil the Kochs actually are. Are they theocrats who want to murder minorities, enslave women, and establish a white supremacist homeland, or do they just want ALL THE MONEY and are willing to ally with those theocrats in order to get it? Right now it's a distinction without a difference, but in the bright optimistic future it could be a distinction with a difference, and that seems like the best we can hope for.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:51 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


If I misinterpreted, my apologies.
posted by chris24 at 5:53 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


The Cards Against Humanity stunt is interesting, but it's also weird that they just say "a plot of vacant land". So, like an eighth of an acre, or 100 acres?
posted by bongo_x
"We’ve purchased a plot of vacant land on the border and retained a law firm specializing in eminent domain to make it as time-consuming and expensive as possible for the wall to get built," the company said on their website.
I may just have to part with 15 bones for this one.
posted by yoga at 5:57 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Maybe we can concentrate on getting rid of the actual Nazis before the leftist knife fights start up?
posted by Celsius1414 at 5:58 AM on November 15, 2017 [26 favorites]


The idea that the two parties will be Centrists and Liberals ignores the large swathes of Americans who are specifically racist, sexist, homophobic, and xenophobic pieces of shit who want to vote for candidates who are specifically racist, sexist, homophobic and xenophobic pieces of shit.

So no. If anything, the GOP will be replaced by a party even more explicitly racist, sexist, homophobic, and xenophobic than they currently are.
posted by lydhre at 6:00 AM on November 15, 2017 [14 favorites]


it's like their understanding of legality is operating on the same level as your average third-grader's -- 'off the record' is somehow the functional equivalent of 'punchbuggy no punch back' or 'jinx you owe me a coke'

*sees latest news story drive by*

"Punchbuggy treason!"
posted by Servo5678 at 6:08 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


So no. If anything, the GOP will be replaced by a party even more explicitly racist, sexist, homophobic, and xenophobic than they currently are.

Agreed, but IMHO that dooms them to permanent crazification factor numbers. And a poor ROI for the donors.

To flesh out my scenario a bit (and I swear on my squishy Liberal heart I'm not trying to start a knife fight), whatever non-rabid, old school businessman GOP types remain need a place to go, but more importantly so does their donors' money. I'm speculating that there's plenty of pro-corporate room under the Dems' big tent for anyone, donors or pols, willing to shed their Kulturkampf and focus on the One True Religion of the Almighty Dollar.
posted by whuppy at 6:09 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


I scanned across the political section of my satellite radio this morning on the way to work. It is a fascinating exercise as long as you're up-to-date on your vaccinations.

About half of the stations made sense and spoke intelligently about today's issues. Discussing the pressure on Roy Moore, what the impacts of the tax bill would be on various groups, what Sessions did and didn't hint at. Then I hit the other side and the flames shot up. All of the Moore allegations are lies and are the Mainstream's war on Christians. Sessions needs to resign because he's weak and won't fight for Trump and prosecute the REAL crimes. Trump is doing a spectacular job but Congress needs impeachment because they're not doing their jobs and implementing MAGA and AMERICA FIRST in full. Callers saying, without a trace of irony, that Trump just needs to get the government out of the way so he can do what needs doing.

I think we're done here as a productive nation. The prion damage is too deep. There are good people in every state, county and neighborhood but far too many Americans are simply broken beyond retrieval by the propaganda streams. The Reagan mantra -- all government is always inherently bad -- has hatched all of its poisonous eggs and nothing short of a 1930s-level national crisis will produce the slightest shakeup of this.

I am reminded of my sister, when she was a teenager and degenerated into a hellion. She would do whatever pleased her -- skip school, steal, lie -- and then simply ignore the punishments as well. It was if she completely rejected her father's legitimacy as holding any authority over her, and that drove him nuts. How do you break that pattern? You can't just keep setting harsher rules and penalties if she ignores those too. Talking did no good. Yelling did no good. Logic and argument fell on deaf ears. You couldn't get violent. She was a minor so you couldn't just kick her out. How do you coexist with a self-absorbed tornado?

You wait for reality to shatter her perceptions the hard way. (Which is how we got my oldest niece, but that's another story.). But this is where we are with Tea Party America. Nothing is ever their fault or concern, nothing matters except what they want, and nothing is ever heard except what they want to hear. Reality breaking them will be less enjoyable since it'll be breaking the rest of us at the same time.

(And this is when women, minorities, LGBTs and such say Oh, so NOW America is broken, suburban straight white boy? Welcome to the party, pal! And they're right.)
posted by delfin at 6:24 AM on November 15, 2017 [108 favorites]


Here's my bold prediction: The GOP will become a defunct rump and the two parties will be Corporatist Neoliberal Third Way Business Friendly Democrats and (here's where I'll cop to wishful thinking) actual Liberal Democrats Who Believe In Things Like Labor and Equality and Equity and Maybe Even Unapologetically Leftist From Time to Time.

I don't see how this would work in practice. Duverger's law means that third parties are doomed, so you won't see three separate parties. Republicans won't be disappearing from the ballot across the country. There's a great incentive to take advantage of the existing party infrastructure to put forward candidates who actually win elections. It just so happens that those folks for Republicans are now often racist assholes. If racists assholes start losing, and Virginia results becomes standard, look for the Republican party to change direction (like recommended in 2012) and tack towards the center.

Nothing focuses the attention of political parties elected officials like losing elections.

Caveat: It could be that the Republican base is so beyond reason that they don't care about passing policy or losing elections, the Akin-O'Donnell-Mourdock Effect (maybe now the Roy Moore Effect) as it were. You see this potentially in the Baudrillardian Presidency of Trump.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:37 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


Yup. Note that I said explicitly "the two parties will be". I don't know what they'll be called, but I do think the Republican brand is so damaged that their name could go the way of the Whigs.
posted by whuppy at 6:48 AM on November 15, 2017


> Duverger's law means that third parties are doomed

From your link: "A third party can enter the arena only if it can exploit the mistakes of a pre-existing major party, ultimately at that party's expense."

Duverger's law describes an inevitable equilibrium, and I don't think it's hard to argue that the polity is not currently in a state of equilibrium. I think 2020 is going have a serious 3rd party spoiler tipping the result, and a return to a solid, realigned 2 party system in 2024. Aligned about what axis is the million dollar question.
posted by klarck at 6:51 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Can we win back the House first before predicting (again) the death of the Republican Party?

They still control everything. Congress, President, SCOTUS, nearly all of the states. How about winning first, and deciding what to label the corpse after that?
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:52 AM on November 15, 2017 [75 favorites]


Triumphalism's a helluva drug.
posted by whuppy at 6:55 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


The Way of the Whigs. An epic novel of the 2030s in which two young Republican lovers see their way of life change when the lost cause they fought for -- screw everybody else -- falls into disrepute.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:57 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


Can we win back the House first before predicting (again) the death of the Republican Party?

1. I can do two things at once, sometimes as many as three!
2. Thinking about and talking about the death of the Republican Party is what motivates me to make sure the Dems win back the house and every other thing that can be won.

We're fighting a war here and that means strategizing around the small battles AND putting all the small battles into the larger context so that we can plan how to win the damn war. The death of the GOP and anything like it is the goal, taking back the house is one of the battles and big one for sure, but not the only battle and not the whole war. Even once victory is in site and inevitable, there is still a lot of fighting that will need to be done. We're well aware that planning for victory doesn't at all assure that victory.
posted by VTX at 7:15 AM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


Perhaps it's whistling past the graveyard, or grasping at straws, but the GOP's trying to stick the knife in the individual mandate is lifting my spirits about the GOP tax mess.

Repealing Obamacare has already gone down in flames dozens of times. The tax plan is already a turd in a punch bowl on so many counts. By adding their Obamacare mandate repeal poison pill, it is going to make it that much harder to twist arms to get their 50 votes.

So, on the one hand, part of me is ringing the alarm that the tax bill has become just that much more of a dog's breakfast. But then, the still small voice inside that urges me to keep my head up says that the GOP have tipped their hand, and they don't really expect this lead zeppelin to get off the ground. It's just kabuki theatre for their constituents and donors.

Still, I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch. There's always an asshole* that's just waiting in the wings to vote the wrong way.



*Okay, technically a synecdoche. Cut me some slack.
posted by darkstar at 7:24 AM on November 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


So the % of individual filers who see a tax hike under this plan isn't actually 100%. It apparently turns out to be 72%. Yay? The vast majority of those who don't see a tax increase make between 0 and 30k a year. So they are hardly paying any federal income taxes. Almost everybody who does pay federal income tax is seeing an increase.
posted by Justinian at 7:25 AM on November 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


Gee pa, it shore would be swell if the press asked better questions.

But that's work!

(see the Biden NPR interview, in which Biden's responses are great, but the NPR interviewer jokes that her reporter card will be revoked if she doesn't waste time asking him about running in 2020 -- and then Steve Inskeep spins his deumrral as a "non-denial denial." Feh.)
posted by Gelatin at 7:32 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]



I am reminded of my sister, when she was a teenager and degenerated into a hellion. She would do whatever pleased her -- skip school, steal, lie -- and then simply ignore the punishments as well. It was if she completely rejected her father's legitimacy as holding any authority over her, and that drove him nuts. How do you break that pattern?

I guess maybe don't equate the limited powers of a legitimately elected democratic government whose mandate rests on the consent of the governed, to the power of a literal patriarch over an unwilling dependent who has the pure drive to resist the command of Because I said so?

"the citizens should do what they're told, like teenage girls should listen to their dads" is about equally offensive as a message to the citizenry or to girls. it is probably more appealing to irredeemable conservatives than to anyone else and should exert no emotional pull at all on leftists or regular Democrats. every so often people here get into a good round of head-scratching on how people of apparently normal intelligence get to have a Libertarian phase without they had a head injury first or were born a sociopath, and this is how.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:34 AM on November 15, 2017 [24 favorites]


DPRK sentences trump to death!

It says a lot that my first reaction to this was to notice the awfulness of photos they chose to represent these two.

That's where we are now.

Foreign country sentences the president to death?: 'Oh, wow, he looks terrible!'
posted by A Terrible Llama at 7:36 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


That is an unnecessarily uncharitable extrapolation from delfin's comment.
posted by stonepharisee at 7:36 AM on November 15, 2017 [31 favorites]


The Guardian probably could have gone right ahead and just captioned it 'Dumbasses.'
posted by A Terrible Llama at 7:37 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


I hate to be this person but I'm going to remind people once again to call their members of congress. The switchboard number is (202) 224-3121. Here's an all-purpose script:

"Hi. I'm a constituent. May I leave a message for the senator/representative? Thanks. My name is X and my zipcode is Y. I'm calling to ask the senator/representative to vote Yes/No on Z. Thank you for taking my message."

That's it. You can fancy it up with a personal story but it isn't necessary. For the most part, the staffers are just taking a yes/no tally of calls. And for those with phone anxiety, it's perfectly OK to call after office hours to leave a voicemail message.
posted by mcduff at 7:38 AM on November 15, 2017 [45 favorites]


I think 2020 is going have a serious 3rd party spoiler tipping the result, and a return to a solid, realigned 2 party system in 2024. Aligned about what axis is the million dollar question.

The part of my brain that remembers living through the last several administrations is pretending a return to a solid, realigned two-party system is possible.

The howling anxiety part predicts it will just be Holnist Toxic Masculinity cultists and some sort of Zardoz-style one-percenter Galt's Gulch warlords doling out guns in return for food, while the rest of us shell rat-sized radioactive cockroaches with sharpened cat food tins in the ashes of civilization.

The more realistic part pictures a massive centrist corporatist party composed of DiFi-style democrats and McCain types, against . . . . something? A libertarian party tugging in the tea party chuckleheads along with the small gov folks from that end of the left?
posted by aspersioncast at 7:40 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Chrysostom: Dem GAIN for mayor of Albuquerque, NM.

A note on New Mexico: it's a blue state, and was called for Hilliary around the same time as California. Albuquerque is fairly progressive, with the outgoing Republican mayor went out and talked with homeless people to understand what they wanted, and hired homeless people to beautify the city, but the mayoral debates focused on being tough on crime. State Auditor Tim Keller, the next ABQ mayor, might have also done better due to a lot of positive coverage of state audits finding issues in the state (UNM athletics is the most recent scandal, but before his office was pursuing companies with unpaid taxes on insurance premiums totalling almost $65 million, and investigating possible procurement violations in the state.

I'm not familiar enough with his personal politics to comment on what he might mean for the city and the state, so here's local political analysis, which can be boiled down to 1) change in Albuquerque PD, which has a bad history of excessive use of force, 2) expanding the controversial bus rapid transit system in ABQ, and 3) signalling that the state is strongly Democratic, especially paired with the progressive sweep of Las Cruces, the New Mexico city adjacent to El Paso, TX, and indicating that the next governor will likely be a Dem.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:53 AM on November 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


I'm sitting in Indiana and just made my calls about opposing the Tax Cuts and Job Act (what a name) to the DC offices of Representative Buschon (R) and Senators Donnelly (D) and Young (R).

I got through to a live person at Represenative Buschon's office, but had to leave a message for both Senators (I am hoping their phone lines are clogged as hell with calls from people like me).

Please call if you can!
posted by minsies at 8:07 AM on November 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


"the citizens should do what they're told, like teenage girls should listen to their dads" is about equally offensive as a message to the citizenry or to girls. it is probably more appealing to irredeemable conservatives than to anyone else and should exert no emotional pull at all on leftists or regular Democrats.

The issue was not that my sister was a GIRL WITH GIRL COOTIES.

A mandate does rest upon the consent of the governed, yes. But a government, like a family's household, is a give-and-take proposition. There are benefits and responsibilities, sometimes unpleasant side effects, but at minimum a recognition of the fact that hey, this is where I live, and other people live here too. I don't have to always agree with them but I need to acknowledge that they have needs too, that I can't just do everything I want, and at minimum I shouldn't shit where I eat.

Every teen feels the urge to rebel sometimes. But a lesson of growing up as a dependent is that actions have consequences, and sometimes you have to accept those consequences. People who say "I don't like the government, so I declare that I don't have to follow its laws, but I'm going to keep living here" have a name. They are called Sovereign Citizens and they get laughed at and/or jailed.

We are at a point where a pretty good chunk of America isn't just disagreeing with everyone else but literally refusing to grant legitimacy to anyone but themselves. They want all the benefits but none of the costs, refuse to listen to (much less negotiate with) anything that doesn't fit their immediate interests, feel no moral obligation to treat peers as equals, and think that no rules or regulations should apply to them. And, like a teenage dependent, they can't be kicked out or locked up on a whim. Dad is a legitimate authority but not an absolute monarch. They are part of the family no matter how much they kick and scream about how they hate it there.

Clearer?
posted by delfin at 8:18 AM on November 15, 2017 [55 favorites]


The trollbot Twitter account that made up the story of WaPo paying Moore's accusers and then deleted the tweets and account when revealed?

Was pretending he was a SEAL who actually died in 2007 and was retweeted by Dan Scavino to "prove" that Muslims danced on rooftops in Jersey on 9/11.
posted by chris24 at 8:18 AM on November 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


@MichaelSLinden (Roosevelt Inst.)
Reducing the corporate tax rate to 23% instead of 20% generates the SAME savings as repealing the ACA mandate.
They could cut taxes for corporates just a little less, but instead they're cutting health care.
posted by chris24 at 8:30 AM on November 15, 2017 [61 favorites]


Delfin, there is a whole George Lakoff theory about how conservatives and liberals both see the country as a family, but what conservatives want from the government is a strict father, whereas liberals want a nurturing parent.

I get where you are coming from, but you really could not have chosen a worse metaphor, for a liberal audience. We don't know your dad or your sister so you are just invoking archetypes, for us.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:31 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


If my last comment makes no sense try reloading- I edited to fix it.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:33 AM on November 15, 2017


OnceUponATime: "We don't know your dad or your sister so you are just invoking archetypes, for us."

The archetype of trying to get a rebellious child to fit into a family is a bridge too far? I have no idea what this pushback is really about.
posted by TypographicalError at 8:41 AM on November 15, 2017 [25 favorites]


Yeah, I really don't get how saying rightwing nutjobs are selfish, immature, angry folks who can cause a lot of problems for those around them, kinda like a teenager sometimes, is really the spark of such rancor.
posted by chris24 at 8:44 AM on November 15, 2017 [21 favorites]


Mod note: Analogies sometimes lead to pointless derails rather than clarity, let's skip this one.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:46 AM on November 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


Speaking of angry, immature, selfish teenagers, Donny is in a needy mood this morning.

1) Retweeting a Trumpbot's Twitter (unscientific) poll showing 80% strongly approve of his performance.

and 2)

@realDonaldTrump
Do you think the three UCLA Basketball Players will say thank you President Trump? They were headed for 10 years in jail!
posted by chris24 at 8:52 AM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


holy shit
like
holy shit that tweet is real
you'd think i'd have learned not to say that by now, but
posted by halation at 8:54 AM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


holy shit that tweet is real

It appears to be referring to this incident, where 3 members of the team were arrested under suspicion of shoplifting in China at about the time of Trump's visit. They were released, and Trump is claiming it was because he pulled strings. However the actual facts of the case are vague in the first place.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:58 AM on November 15, 2017 [14 favorites]


It appears to be referring to this incident, where 3 members of the team were arrested under suspicion of shoplifting in China at about the time of Trump's visit. They were released, and Trump is claiming it was because he pulled strings. However the actual facts of the case are vague in the first place.

Thanks for the additional context. I shouldn't have assumed people knew what nutjob-in-chief was talking about.

And I'm sure it's completely coincidental that Donny is demanding thanks from three black men.
posted by chris24 at 9:00 AM on November 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


Referring to himself in the third person? ☑️
Showing a total lack of grace and dignity? ☑️
Treating black Americans as ungrateful pawns? ☑️

It’s a Trump trifecta.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 9:01 AM on November 15, 2017 [57 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump
Do you think the three UCLA Basketball Players will say thank you President Trump? They were headed for 10 years in jail!

Meanwhile, right wing twitter is proclaiming him Not A Racist over the incident.
posted by zarq at 9:02 AM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


OTOH, LiAngelo Ball's father is about as sociopathic a narcissist as Trump, so... this might be (horrible and) entertaining when if he decides to wade in.
posted by TwoStride at 9:12 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


It's a tough call, but I think that might be the worst thing he's ever tweeted.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:13 AM on November 15, 2017


OK maybe not the worst, but fuck
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:14 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


For what it's worth, the commissioner of the players' college league has thanked Trump. I wonder if that specifically prompted the tweet, by putting the notion of being thanked into Donald's head, with racism naturally doing the rest of the work. (It also makes Donald ungrateful for gratitude.)

I'm trying and failing to imagine even another Republican getting away with such bizarre presumptuousness. (At least, one who wasn't a white man.) The Moana song "You're Welcome" is subtle by comparison.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:21 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


Redirecting my derail back towards its original point...

"Republican" is losing value as a brand mainly because its base _followed instructions_. What has the GOP mantra been for decades? All government is bad. All taxes are bad. All regulations are bad. Drown government in a bathtub. We must stop socialized healthcare because it would show government can help. Reduce government to local fiefdoms that can live how they want.

So now we have corporations and Kochs who want to tilt the system to make them billions, but also outright anarchists who want no federal government at all outside of funding guns and bombs. Trump not knowing politics is a feature because run ALL politicians out of DC, drain the swamp! Government shutdowns? Yes please! Unfilled offices and appointments? We never needed them to start with! Burn it all down so I can play King of my Neighborhood!

I've often said that Reagan did more damage to America than anyone else in his century. He was the point man for the shred-government movement and opened the door wide for today's nutballs, even if he was in it more for the moneyed interests himself.
posted by delfin at 9:25 AM on November 15, 2017 [42 favorites]


I actually buy Trump talking to Xi Jinping about the basketball players, and Xi Jinping helping because it's an easy performative win for both of them-- and it defangs the US criticizing China on widespread human rights issues which should've been talked about. Not that I thought they should go to jail for 3-10 years, but it's another example of Trump not seeing the bigger picture on how to use the political capital of the Presidency to help all people, not just his buddies or the ones who called him last or the ones in the news. I mean China could be in ally in stopping the Rohingya genocide crisis, which barely (never?) even came up at ASEAN! And, of course, Trump expecting to be thanked for helping and the dog whistle racism of always implying black people are ungrateful is garbage.
posted by bluecore at 9:29 AM on November 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


Grassley's a Lost Cause, and not (only) in a defending-the-Confederacy way. Expect nothing helpful or reasonable from him in the future.

Herb and Raju, CNN: Grassley calls WikiLeaks exchanges with Donald Trump Jr. 'innocuous'

"I read those emails. He only responded to two or three of them, and they were very innocuous," Grassley told CNN. "So I don't even know why you'd be asking about him if you read them."
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:43 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


McCaskill dunks on Hatch.

@kylegriffin1
Orrin Hatch: "There are no cuts to Medicaid in this bill."
...
Claire McCaskill: "Where do you think the $300 billion is coming from? Is there a fairy that's dropping it on the Senate? The money you're spending is coming out of Medicaid." (via ABC)

VIDEO
posted by chris24 at 9:53 AM on November 15, 2017 [85 favorites]


I'm reading another Primo Levi - Moments of Reprieve, which I needless to say cannot urge you strongly enough to read - and this line resonated for me in today's mystifying world:

'Real problems sooner or later are resolved; on the contrary, pseudoproblems are not. So, not being open to definitive solution, they are extremely long-lived...''
posted by Myeral at 9:53 AM on November 15, 2017 [15 favorites]


leotrotsky: " Duverger's law means that third parties are doomed, so you won't see three separate parties. "

That same Wikipedia article goes on to note that Canada, the UK, and India all seem to be counter-examples. Perhaps it's less a law than a tendency.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:56 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


New poll from Quinnipiac.

- Only 25% approve of the GOP tax plan.

- Only 16% think the plan will reduce their taxes.

- 61% say it will benefit the wealthy most; only 24% say it will help middle class the most.
posted by chris24 at 9:56 AM on November 15, 2017 [32 favorites]


Is there actual video footage of Trump composing and sending out a tweet?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:00 AM on November 15, 2017


I hope not as I assume he writes them all while taking a shit
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:04 AM on November 15, 2017 [29 favorites]


only 24% say it will help middle class the most.

Because raising taxes on the middle class while exploding the debt, cutting health care, and giving massive permanent corporate tax cuts is obviously gonna help the little guy!
posted by Justinian at 10:05 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Claire McCaskill: "Where do you think the $300 billion is coming from? Is there a fairy that's dropping it on the Senate? The money you're spending is coming out of Medicaid."

This is great. She was our state auditor. If anyone can call bullshit on GOP math and show receipts, it's her.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 10:06 AM on November 15, 2017 [46 favorites]


The [Cards Against Humanity] stunt can make some headlines and get some viral attention going, I guess. It's a statement, at least. But I kinda feel like donating that money to a group like the International Rescue Committee or some other refugee aid group might have done some actual good, y'know?

Why do we have to have this zero-sum thinking with everything? Putting aside the knee-jerk negativity of it, look at it practically: what percentage of those $15 purchases to the makers of a humor card game do you really think were ever in danger of going to a charitable donation of any kind instead?

Weirdo stunts from unusual avenues should never displace more concerted charitable endeavors but the number of times they actually do are probably effectively zero. If you can find someone who will tell you that they can't donate some money to charity XYZ because they spent it on this or something like it instead let me assure you: they were never going to give that money to charity.

On the other more positive side, I'd happily bet you the $15 I threw down on this stunt that a double-digit quantity of people become aware of other charity/humanitarian efforts as a result of this thing. It may be that almost none of them go on to do anything about it in efforts or cash, but so what? It's a freebie from the perspective of those organizations and didn't divert anything other than jokey holiday spending.
posted by phearlez at 10:18 AM on November 15, 2017 [30 favorites]


CAH addressed that with last year's Holiday Hole

From their FAQ:

What do I get for contributing money to the hole?
A deeper hole. What else are you going to buy, an iPod?

Why aren’t you giving all this money to charity?
Why aren’t YOU giving all this money to charity? It’s your money.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 10:25 AM on November 15, 2017 [64 favorites]


Yeah, of course it would benefit the world more if Cards Against Humanity donated their marketing budget to a worthy charity, but there's no reason to expect them to do that. They have a budget for attention-getting stunts, not philanthropy, and if some of their stunts have a socially beneficial effect, that's great.
posted by contraption at 10:26 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


The more realistic part pictures a massive centrist corporatist party composed of DiFi-style democrats and McCain types, against . . . . something? A libertarian party tugging in the tea party chuckleheads along with the small gov folks from that end of the left?

That's only if the people let whoever wants to be in charge get away with it. People keep forgetting that in the House and Senate races it's not like there's some all powerful council of Democrats that decide. You get to the primary you vote along with everyone else. If the DSA want to pull the party to the left run leftists in primaries and show up to those primaries.

In 2014 only 13 million Democrats voted in the primaries. 8.1% of registered Democratic voters. This isn't exactly a massive amount of the electorate coming together but that's the process. They've got 90+% of the registered voter base out there up for grabs in primaries! They need to go get it!
posted by Talez at 10:27 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


And yes, I'm getting sick of everyone who gets all riled up about milquetoast centrists but when push comes to shove nobody shows up to get anyone else on the ballot.
posted by Talez at 10:28 AM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


sigh. i really loved the holiday hole. it seems so long ago.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:29 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


House Dems introduce articles of impeachment against Trump [The Hill]
Six House Democrats on Wednesday launched the latest official effort to oust President Trump, introducing five new articles of impeachment revolving around the central theme that the president is a danger to the country.

“Given the magnitude of the constitutional crisis, there’s no reason for delay,” said Rep. Steve Cohen (D-Tenn.), the sponsor of the resolution.

Joining Cohen in endorsing the articles are Democratic Reps. Luis Gutiérrez (Ill.), Al Green (Texas), Marcia Fudge (Ohio), John Yarmuth (Ky.) and Adriano Espaillat (N.Y.).

The lawmakers pointed to numerous actions by Trump they say make him unfit to be president, but they singled out five actions they say rise to a level meriting impeachment.
posted by Fizz at 10:31 AM on November 15, 2017 [22 favorites]


Ill-advised showboating.
posted by Justinian at 10:32 AM on November 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


I love a show. There's no Legislature Double Jeopardy, right? They can introduce one set of articles of impeachment for every Obamacare Repeal vote they had.
posted by mikelieman at 10:34 AM on November 15, 2017 [9 favorites]


Maybe they can beat the record for Republican votes to repeal Obamacare while Obama was still president.
posted by Justinian at 10:35 AM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


Ill-advised showboating.

Real leadership.

“I think the Democratic base needs to be activated. The Democratic base needs to know there are members of Congress willing to stand up against this president,” Cohen said.
posted by vibrotronica at 10:37 AM on November 15, 2017 [14 favorites]


I love a show.

I... don't? I would rather government be conducted with the seriousness it deserves. Articles of impeachment get you nowhere until Meuller Time.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 10:39 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


I'm not politically naive. Don't think so, anyway - covered politicians for years, in three states. So what I don't understand is this: Why doesn't Democratic leadership introduce their own tax reform bill, right now? Contrast it with the Republican plan. I know it would go nowhere, but it would make a big splash in the news cycle for a day or two, and give reporters something else to badger Ryan and McConnell about.

And here's the easy and beautiful part -- they don't actually have to do any heavy lifting. Just take the GOP bill and edit the numbers, so the breaks shift from businesses to middle- and low-income families. Circulate for co-sponsors and file. Presto!
posted by martin q blank at 10:39 AM on November 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


Maybe they can beat the record for Republican votes to repeal Obamacare while Obama was still president.

Well, since the Republicans now own all three branches of government after we calmly tisk tisk-ed them, and are poised to take away my healthcare, I would say that "ill-advised showboating" worked out pretty well for them.
posted by vibrotronica at 10:39 AM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


. They have a budget for attention-getting stunts, not philanthropy, and if some of their stunts have a socially beneficial effect, that's great.

Some of those stunts have included philanthropy, including the Sunlight Foundation (all purchasers of the holiday offering were sent a customized list of who had donated to their Senators), and WBEZ, Chicago's NPR station (all purchasers got a year's membership to WBEZ).
posted by dnash at 10:40 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


I... don't? I would rather government be conducted with the seriousness it deserves. Articles of impeachment get you nowhere until Meuller Time.

Mueller is Indictment in Court. And don't you worry, there's a lot of deliverables there, but remember, impeachment is a political process. Keep impeaching him until people start believing it, and it'll stick. Shit, they believed Obama was born in Kenya.
posted by mikelieman at 10:43 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


Shit, they believed Obama was born in Kenya.

Did they, though? I think they just believed he was a dangerous foreigner, and the Kenya libel was just the vehicle for the expression of that belief.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:45 AM on November 15, 2017


They believed he was black. That’s all they needed. Everything else was the dog whistle.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:49 AM on November 15, 2017 [60 favorites]


Guys like Gohmert believed he was from Kenya, but they need detailed instructions on how to put on their shoes.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:52 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


I have absolutely no idea whether it's better to wait for Mueller before making impeachment noises. Trump admitted to obstruction of justice six years ago in May of 2017, but for practical purposes, the unlawfulness of his actions comes down to collective social agreement. You don't want to look too aggressive, but you also don't want the public image to be "even Dems think it's no big deal".

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Mueller recommends obstruction charges around 2018 or 2019, and the Republicans' new talking point is a re-purposing of the concern about "timing" in the Roy Moore accusations. "If firing Comey over Russia was so illegal," they'll ask, "why didn't anyone say or do anything at the time?" (ignoring the people who did ban Trump from a shopping mall, er, you know what I mean.)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:54 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Did they, though? I think they just believed he was a dangerous foreigner, and the Kenya libel was just the vehicle for the expression of that belief.

At least one person I know sure seemed too. I tried at various times to peel that onion because I found it difficult to believe that this guy believed it literally. Racism definitely was a driving force but he really seemed to think Obama was actually from Kenya.
I figure if Canadian dude could be that brainwashed then there must be some Americans who think its true.
posted by Jalliah at 10:58 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Trump admitted to obstruction of justice six years ago in May of 2017

Wow, I guess I slept in a lot later than I thought.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:00 AM on November 15, 2017 [22 favorites]


I don't know what this means, but the disparity on social media between Pat Toomey's tweets and Bob Casey's is... heartening? Hilarious? IDK. But every single time Toomey tweets, there's like 300 replies that are all variations on "Go fuck yourself, you ghoul." When Casey tweets, there's a much lower number of responses (usually) and they're 95% "Thank you for fighting for us!"

The same thing tends to happen on Facebook, but with more of a conservative skew. So a bit less invective towards Toomey, a bit more "hurf durf libtard" towards Casey. But being Pat Toomey's social media director must be a seriously depressing gig.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:08 AM on November 15, 2017 [9 favorites]


Sys Rq: Wow, I guess I slept in a lot later than I thought.
For the record I wrote it an intentional time-dilation joke (I played in my head with various possibilities like "a hundred years" before settling on what it actually felt like to me). But I just realized the actual interval has been six months, so I guess "one year per month" is my personal trump-time conversion factor.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 11:10 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Wow, I guess I slept in a lot later than I thought.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with President Bieber until the next election cycle.
posted by zarq at 11:12 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


Prime Minister Bieber.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:14 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


Yes, yes, he's too young and (*gasp*) Canadian but at this point the rule of law has already been thrown out the window.
posted by zarq at 11:14 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Bieber would be the logical next step after we already elected one PM for having a famous name and nice hair.
posted by yellowbinder at 11:15 AM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


What about the "Friday" girl for US president? C'mon guys, there's options out there...
posted by Namlit at 11:15 AM on November 15, 2017


but at this point the rule of law has already been thrown out the window.

That reminds me. This morning some Breitbart guy on the radio said "The entire purpose of the Trump candidacy was to reestablish the Rule of Law."

And my entire ass fell off

You don't know how much that hurts until it happens
posted by delfin at 11:20 AM on November 15, 2017 [44 favorites]


InTheYear2017: I have absolutely no idea whether it's better to wait for Mueller before making impeachment noises. Trump admitted to obstruction of justice six years ago in May of 2017, but for practical purposes, the unlawfulness of his actions comes down to collective social agreement.

For a depressing look at the year, search for "surely this" stories. For example, here's five different times that Nixon's "smoking gun tape" was referenced in regard to then-recent Trump-related activities:

1. President Trump, Richard Nixon and Watergate: Which memo is the smoking gun? (USA Today, May 17, 2017)

2. Trump’s smoking gun (Boston Globe opinion piece, May 23, 2017)

3. Commentary: How Comey’s 'smoking gun' could kill the Trump presidency (relating to the story: Comey says Trump fired him to undermine FBI Russia investigation) (Reuters, June 8, 2017)

4. Is Donald Trump Jr.’s ‘I love it’ email a smoking gun or a distraction? (Washington Post, July 12, 2017) -- about DTJr's response to the prospect of scoring nasty information from friendly Russians about Hillary Clinton in June last year

5. Trump Campaign Officials Say Mueller Indictments Are No 'Smoking Gun,' Echoing Nixon Era (Newsweek, Oct. 30, 2017)

I'm torn between thinking that continued talk of impeaching Trump helps, and the idea that it makes everyone numb to such talk when it's brought up over and over with no results, like a boy crying wolf.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:21 AM on November 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


lalex: Wait, what is even going on here?

If this is true, then it's the most blatant example of vote-rigging to occur recently.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:23 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


lalex: "Wait, what is even going on here? @Krystal Ball: "On press call happening now, VA Dems say that 668 voters in a liberal area were given the wrong ballots in a house of del race. That race was won by gop by 82 votes. Would flip that seat and control of house. Lawyers waiting on sbe response""

There's a possibility that voters in Stafford County in HD-28 got ballots that showed the candidates for HD-88. It is not yet clear whether that happened or not.

Please note - again - that the Stafford County Board of Elections is controlled by Democrats.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:25 AM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


The CFPB (and the people it serves) deserves good leadership.

On the other hand, so does Ohio, so. Hmm.

I've seen people on Twitter musing on whether this means he's planning on running for a statewide office, possibly even Governor.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:26 AM on November 15, 2017


Or, duh, I could have skimmed your comment a lot slower.

bad zombieflanders, no brain-diddly-ains for you
posted by zombieflanders at 11:27 AM on November 15, 2017 [9 favorites]


You gotta remember that just as this repetition is just drilling things so deep in your brain it's giving you holes in the head, it's just barely scratching the consciousness of others. Republicans didn't convince people about Benghazi or But Her Emails by just repeating it once - they were incessant. Not everyone is media literate or a political nerd for many reasons that span fear to intimidation to busy-ness to disability to apathy - and repeating will increase information's reach to them.

That's the same reason that I have no patience for the "uh, why is this even news anymore?" reactions to stories about corruption or whatever. Not everyone is steeped in this info in the same way. Not everyone will be or wants to be. We still need them on our team. Repetition is effective.
posted by mosst at 11:27 AM on November 15, 2017 [63 favorites]


Here's some more detail on the Fredericksburg split precinct issue. Obviously, this could be pretty major, if what is represented actually happened.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:30 AM on November 15, 2017 [21 favorites]


But every single time Toomey tweets, there's like 300 replies that are all variations on "Go fuck yourself, you ghoul." When Casey tweets, there's a much lower number of responses (usually) and they're 95% "Thank you for fighting for us!"

Surely some of this stems from the rank, meretricious BS that Toomey spouts. On Facebook today, he called the Joint Committee on Taxation "non-partisan" when it is in fact "bi-partisan", with the GOP having more members, thanks to holding the chair and vice-chair positions. This misleading characterization is of course in order to make way for the big lie "The Senate Finance Committee's Tax Cuts and Jobs Act makes no changes to the health care programs" (his claim rests on the people not being disqualified, as opposed to the programs themselves being underfunded).

Incidentally, if anyone has a good phone script tailored to addressing such disinformation, I'd be immensely grateful for a link.
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:36 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Vox, Dara Lind,The Trump administration rejected 4,000 “late” DACA renewals. Some were sitting in its mailbox at the deadline. In which DACA recipients sue the government because their applications were declared late even though they were sitting in the proper mailbox on-time.

AP, Lawsuit: Rent at Kushner properties inflated illegally, in which tenants sue Kushner Cos. for charging market rate rent on units they say should be rent stabilized.

Steve Mnuchin was photographed along with his wife with the first sheet of dollar bills with his name on it (yeah, we have to deal with that now too), and it's really not a good look, especially the shit-eating grin. I mean, I'd have a shit-eating grin holding a giant sheet of money with my name on it too, but since he's fighting to raise everyone's taxes right now...

And in tax news, the House passed the rule 251-191, setting up a floor vote tomorrow. They're going to pass this thing. It's going to increase taxes on the middle class and give it to corporations. They don't care. Call your reps and tell them you can see what they're doing.
posted by zachlipton at 11:36 AM on November 15, 2017 [40 favorites]


I think the impeachment thing is a good idea, presuming that the charges they list are in fact impeachable offenses (in normal times). It doesn't have a hope in hell of going anywhere right now, but it can provide a number of less tangible benefits. It helps signal to democrats everywhere that, yes, there are lawmakers right now who are willing to do this and have the 'evidence' to make it stick (in a normal process), which helps keep democrat voters motivated. I've been wondering since January why our MoCs weren't making a bigger deal out of the obvious emolument issues, among other things, and taking this kind of stand helps. It can also become a laundry list of all his abuses of norms and power that will come in handy when (dear god, when not if), it comes time to account for them. Sure, the right might decide to take the 'boy cried wolf' defense, but they are going to fight it and speciously argue regardless of what we do. And the key difference, is that the boy lied about the wolf, we aren't lying about his impeachable offenses.
posted by gofargogo at 11:38 AM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


Steve Mnuchin was photographed along with his wife with the first sheet of dollar bills with his name on it (yeah, we have to deal with that now too), and it's really not a good look, especially the shit-eating grin.

That fucking smirk from Linton, too. This picture is Exhibit A in "these fuckers are gonna be first up against the wall."
posted by zombieflanders at 11:44 AM on November 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


And in tax news, the House passed the rule 251-191, setting up a floor vote tomorrow.

So if this passes tomorrow, does that mean its a done deal? Tuition waivers will be taxable in 2018?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:44 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


@jim_newell (Slate)
Issa’s a no and expects 2-3 more California GOP noes. Won’t name names.
posted by chris24 at 11:45 AM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Do you think the three UCLA Basketball Players will say thank you President Trump? They were headed for 10 years in jail!

He is bragging about interfering in another countries judicial process. Precisely what his campaign and administration is being investigated for him allegedly doing here in America.
posted by srboisvert at 11:46 AM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


My bet is that the tax bill goes down in flames. It will pass the House because the House is full of wingnuts and because the House knows that it won't pass the Senate - they know they can showboat because they will never pay any legislative price for their idiocy. I bet it will stall out in the Senate, though, because it's going to knife Republicans in blue/purple states and because it's deeply unpopular.

The thing is, this tax bill is comparatively famous for a piece of legislation, and people are going to see their taxes go up. They're going to lose deductions, especially well-off people who vote. And they are going to be pissed. Passing this bill as it sits will be bad for the GOP in even the medium term.

I have noticed that Trey Gowdie and several other Republicans have been pushing back on Trump's call for a special prosecutor on all this Clinton nonsense. This says to me that there are limits being reached with at least some Republicans - they understand that while looting the country is great for them and their cronies, there are some actions that will actually break everything, and they don't want to take those. This is good, not because they are so awesome or principled or anything, but because it means schisms in the GOP, and schisms mean slowdowns and that's what we need, all the way to 2020.
posted by Frowner at 11:47 AM on November 15, 2017 [23 favorites]


So if this passes tomorrow, does that mean its a done deal? Tuition waivers will be taxable in 2018?

Not yet. Senate has to pass a bill, conference committee, then both chambers pass whatever results. Or one side just takes up the other's bill in total. And then Trump has to sign it. Last I've seen, the House bill makes tuition waivers taxable, but the Senate bill does not. So it's unclear whether they'll keep it or not.
posted by zachlipton at 11:49 AM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


@lilybatch
Retweeted David Kamin
Important piece. Using TPC data, @davidckamin estimates that by 2027, only income group that will benefit from Senate bill on average is top 1%. The other 99% will be worse off on average.
@davidckamin: Amendments to Senate tax bill last night made clear the trade-offs required by tax cuts and demonstrated Republican priorities. Chained CPI + health mandate repeal (+13 mn uninsured) paying for half corporate rate cut in 2027. My take here: Trade-Offs Made Clear in the Senate Bill
posted by chris24 at 11:49 AM on November 15, 2017 [17 favorites]


People who think the tax bill fails, who exactly do you think the 3 NO votes are going to be?
posted by Justinian at 11:50 AM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


> So if this passes tomorrow, does that mean its a done deal? Tuition waivers will be taxable in 2018?

no. the Senate has to pass their version too (might not happen), and both bills need to go through a resolution process to iron out the differences (might not happen), and the joint bill needs to pass through both the House and Senate again if different from their own versions (might not happen), and then Donnie needs to sign the joint bill (might not see it on his desk under the Happy Meal). There's still a few steps between here and there.
posted by Old Kentucky Shark at 11:51 AM on November 15, 2017


People who thing the tax bill fails, who exactly do you think the 3 NO votes are going to be?

Collins and prayer.

Collins Warns GOP That Mandate Repeal Will Hike Premiums, Slam Middle Class
“I am no fan of the individual mandate and I very much want to see tax reform,” she said slowly and carefully. “But I believe taking a particular provision from the Affordable Care Act and appending it to the tax bill greatly complicates our efforts. One of my concerns is that it will cause premiums in the individual markets to go up as healthier, younger people drop out.”

“I have new statistics,” Collins added, patting a thick black binder under her arm, “that show that for some middle-income people, it will cancel out their tax cut. The increased premium would be more than the tax reduction they would get from this bill.”
posted by chris24 at 11:55 AM on November 15, 2017 [29 favorites]


Yes, I think Collins is a no. Now we just need 2 more.... and I think McCain votes YES.
posted by Justinian at 11:56 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


People who thing the tax bill fails, who exactly do you think the 3 NO votes are going to be?

Collins is already making disapproving noises about the individual mandate repeal.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:56 AM on November 15, 2017


People who thing the tax bill fails, who exactly do you think the 3 NO votes are going to be?

I'm pretty sure Dana Rohrabacher is a "Yes;" after VA he walked it back as far as lecturing us on the process (after the House votes, the Senate does, and then the President must sign, so we have to wait for it all to play out...) and that he wouldn't ultimately support anything that raises taxes on voters in his district, which is wobblier than me late on a Friday night. Mimi Walters has uttered pretty much the same thing.
posted by notyou at 11:56 AM on November 15, 2017


Something might pass both the house and senate, but it’ll die an angry fiery death in conference. That’s my prediction.
posted by Glibpaxman at 11:57 AM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Oh, in the Senate. I thought you were asking in re: Issa's hint at 2-3 CA GOP defectors.
posted by notyou at 11:58 AM on November 15, 2017


Maybe I should start taking bets to help pay for not-dying when my health insurance premium hits $1500/mo.
posted by Justinian at 11:58 AM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


Here is what I don't understand: The GOP is clearly desperate to pass something. They need something to take back to their masters to show that they're not a bunch of incompetent morons. (Narrator: They are.) Why do they keep trying to pass shit that isn't just terrible, but MONUMENTALLY MUSTACHE-TWIRLING AWFUL? Like, could you not put together a "tax reform" package that cuts some 1% taxes here, eliminates some less-used deductions there, and promises everyone a puppy next Christmas and call it a day? They control the entire government! They could absolutely 100% pass something that was just mildly evil, but they keep trying for the brass ring of completely diabolical. And then freaking out that they're unable to pass anything. I don't get it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:00 PM on November 15, 2017 [106 favorites]


It's truly mind-boggling, soren_lorenson. The pressure from the paymasters must be intolerable.
posted by notyou at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


I am thinking "Collins and a sudden collapse of GOP unity", because this is such a terrible, terrible bill for the GOP. I am betting that even as we speak, people are hoping for (or actively engineering) enough of a split in the party vote that no one person will take the fall. They may almost all be terrible people, but they're not all stupid - there's a huge political price to this bill, and it's not far enough out not to matter.

Although a death in conference might be what happens, actually - that would let everyone off the hook with voters.

I would bet dollars to donuts that this plan is actually unpopular with many Republicans who are making nice on the surface. There is a huge tension between being afraid to buck party/right-wing/Koch consensus and the fact that many of them will pay an individual price as soon as their constituents start losing deductions.

This isn't like Obamacare - Obamacare actually covered a relatively small percentage of the likely-to-vote population. Taxes will go up for a much, much larger percentage of the likely-voter population. I cannot overstress that this is a dumb bill, oft evil will shall evil mar, etc.
posted by Frowner at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


Here is what I don't understand: The GOP is clearly desperate to pass something. They need something to take back to their masters to show that they're not a bunch of incompetent morons. (Narrator: They are.) Why do they keep trying to pass shit that isn't just terrible, but MONUMENTALLY MUSTACHE-TWIRLING AWFUL? Like, could you not put together a "tax reform" package that cuts some 1% taxes here, eliminates some less-used deductions there, and promises everyone a puppy next Christmas and call it a day? They control the entire government! They could absolutely 100% pass something that was just mildly evil, but they keep trying for the brass ring of completely diabolical. And then freaking out that they're unable to pass anything. I don't get it.

^^^ something about being scorpions and this behavior is "just their nature"?
posted by mosk at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


I honestly think they know they are fucked and are trying to loot the country for as much as possible as quickly as possible. A couple 1%er tax cuts here and there isn't enough. They need to smash and grab before the reckoning.
posted by Justinian at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2017 [37 favorites]


In today's--takes deep breath, sobs quietly--"prominent Republican group says/does something wildly anti-Semitic", the far-right PAC Turning Point USA responded to a post from blogger Adam Weinstein by tweeting this:
"The best 'grift' this morning is having a guy named Weinstein criticize young people for wanting fewer hands in their pockets. Too good."
posted by zombieflanders at 12:05 PM on November 15, 2017 [24 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump I will be making a major statement from the @WhiteHouse upon my return to D.C. Time and date to be set.

Today's White House schedule has an update that Trump "will deliver remarks" at 3:30. The AP reports, "The president previewed his comments before departing the Philippines, telling reporters he would make a 'major statement' about trade and his work to counter the North Korean nuclear threat." Then again, Trump also said that the US is "respected again" in the Asia-Pacific region, so adjust expectations accordingly.
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:07 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


the far-right PAC Turning Point USA responded to a post from blogger Adam Weinstein by tweeting this:

Even better, Weinstein is Episcopalian.
posted by chris24 at 12:09 PM on November 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


Maybe the Republican Party runs on rules of Male Incompetence, as described in one of todays FPP's
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:09 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Worth noting, BTW, that TPUSA has been going after left-leaning college organizations for, among other things, alleged anti-Semitism.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:10 PM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


Even better, Weinstein is Episcopalian.

To be fair, WASPs have a pretty good record of grifting / theft on a continental level. I'm sure that's what was meant
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:11 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


soren_lorensen: "Like, could you not put together a "tax reform" package that cuts some 1% taxes here, eliminates some less-used deductions there, and promises everyone a puppy next Christmas and call it a day?"

Seriously. Bush Tax Cut II would be easy to pass, and would even get some Dem votes.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:21 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Can someone get a bullhorn and holler REGULAR ORDER at McCain until he throws a Serious Concern at them?
posted by delfin at 12:21 PM on November 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


Then again, Trump also said that the US is "respected again" in the Asia-Pacific region

Yes of course, because clearly all that stands between a country being "respected" and not is its head of state taking single trip to make everything right by doing... the things. Does this moron not conceive of anything as a single episode of a TV show, with all the good and bad guys delineated and the plot neatly tied up by the final commercial break?
posted by Rykey at 12:24 PM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


Here's a C-SPAN link for Trump's "remarks," if you have an empty stomach and an empty soul.
posted by zachlipton at 12:27 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Has anyone raised the issue of whether the mandate repeal is deliberate self-sabotage on the part of the Senate leaders?

Or is that too many dimensions of chess for the current administration?
posted by Dashy at 12:28 PM on November 15, 2017


Sen. Johnson is a no: "Wisconsin Republican says plan unfairly benefits corporations over other businesses, says he finds bill’s process ‘offensive’"

Of course, we've been down this road before with him. @dylanlscott: #neverforget RonJohn’s Senate floor standoff with McConnell, right up until he voted for cloture on AHCA

I think he caves, but him holding out as a no might start causing other grievances to be aired.
posted by zachlipton at 12:29 PM on November 15, 2017 [25 favorites]


Right now when someone says "impeach Trump," a lot of the response will be "For what?" Ezra Klein of Vox supposedly has an article in the works about this. We need some of this groundwork laid before we can get to Mueller Time. A lot of the conversation has to wait for Mueller's report, but a lot of it is just on us.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 12:31 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Edwin Rios, MotherJones: The Trump Administration Has Yet to Approve a Single Student Debt Relief Claim
Senate Democrats blast Betsy DeVos for failing to help students who fell victim to predatory for-profit colleges.
The processes to help them began under Obama, but crawled to a halt in the Trump administration.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:31 PM on November 15, 2017 [31 favorites]


House Dems introduce articles of impeachment against Trump [The Hill]

They should be in court petitioning to invalidate the 2016 elections.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:32 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Trump didn't make it 30 seconds without a bunch of word salad.
posted by Justinian at 12:34 PM on November 15, 2017


If Johnson really is a NO that changes my calculus on the chances.
posted by Justinian at 12:34 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Is there a point to this speech besides "see, I've been a Very Good President," let me tell you about stuff I did six months ago?
posted by zachlipton at 12:38 PM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


No, this is just Trump jerking himself on live TV.
posted by Justinian at 12:41 PM on November 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


Frowner My bet is that the tax bill goes down in flames. It will pass the House because the House is full of wingnuts and because the House knows that it won't pass the Senate

I think you're being wildly overoptimistic. Mind you, I thought for sure they'd pass the ACA repeal too, but tax "reform" is even more central to their identity (and their money flow) than repealing the ACA.

They must pass something, and I think they will out of sheer desperation even if they know it'll hurt them in the elections.

We'll see, and I'll freely admit I don't have a good track record for predicting political outcomes acurately. But I think they'll pass something. Johnson will fold, he did on the ACA he will here too. No spine. And McCain has already said he'd vote for it.

soren_lorensen Here is what I don't understand: The GOP is clearly desperate to pass something. They need something to take back to their masters to show that they're not a bunch of incompetent morons. (Narrator: They are.) Why do they keep trying to pass shit that isn't just terrible, but MONUMENTALLY MUSTACHE-TWIRLING AWFUL?

The optimistic view is that they know they'll be booted in 2018 and 2020 so they're trying for the best they can get while they've still got a shot at it.

I think this view is incorrect. The Republicans have a damn good chance of holding the Senate after 2018, and a very good chance of holding the House, and in the long run their gerrymandering means they'll always have at least a good chance at the House, and demographic shifts mean the Senate will basically be theirs forever. I don't think they're desperate.

I think we're looking at hubris coupled with a combination of the Tea Party's fanaticism and inability to compromise on anything.

Like you said, they've got a majority, they own the entire government, and even people who should theoretically know that their grip is a bit shaky and based on an unstable alliance of forces that largely hate each other see the numbers and think "hot damn we can put our wish list into law!" Hubris.

Also perhaps a heaping helping of being woefully out of practice at actually being in power. They've been the party of no for 8 years and had no job or purpose but obstructing absolutely anything Obama did. Switching gears to actually cooperating and trying to do something is hard. And, frankly, a lot of them are lazy. Obstructing Obama was easy and fun. Actually doing the business of governing is difficult and involves a lot of compromise and moral ambiguity.
posted by sotonohito at 12:42 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


I'm listening to audio only since I'm at work. The sniffling is back.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 12:42 PM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


nooo wait i thought we finished the synopsis part
we're doing another synopsis part?
posted by halation at 12:43 PM on November 15, 2017


This is a lot of sniffing.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:43 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


I'm listening to audio only since I'm at work. The sniffling is back.

he DOES seem unusually focused. i guess he needs to be, for his big What I Did On My Vacation report.
posted by halation at 12:44 PM on November 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


No, this is just Trump jerking himself on live TV.

Literally or metaphorically?
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:44 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


I'm listening to audio only since I'm at work. The sniffling is back.

Back on the charlie after his staff had to stuff him full of tranqs to get him to sleep in a bed he didn't own on the Asia tour.
posted by PenDevil at 12:44 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


This is a lot of sniffing.

Takes a lot of blow to blow through jet lag.
posted by chris24 at 12:44 PM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


Trump just stopped his televised speech to drink water from a bottle. Of course, there is a tweet for that.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:47 PM on November 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


Trump: I called for all countries, including China and Russia, to sever all economic and commercial ties to North Korea.

Also, he can't read words on a teleprompter very well.
posted by Rykey at 12:48 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


was it trump water?
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:49 PM on November 15, 2017


In the world of absolutely shameless, Toomey just tweeted a thanks to teachers. It's going over just as well as you imagine it would.
posted by mcduff at 12:50 PM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


Remember the one debate where he started off calm, and then the sniffing started, then he sped up and became more frantic in his speech? That is happening right now. He's like 200% less chill than the start of this speech 10 minutes ago.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 12:51 PM on November 15, 2017 [17 favorites]


Not trying to live blog but he really is just motoring through it and the words are a bit...mushy. And yes he needs water. The reason I'm adding this here, is that if this is medication induced, we might be in for more tweets this afternoon.
posted by Brainy at 12:51 PM on November 15, 2017


He drank it again. It's a bottle of Fiji water. He's trying to lock down the aesthetic vaporwave vote
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:51 PM on November 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


He drank some water. That's all. Twitter is freaking out, because he ruthlessly mocked Rubio for once drinking water during a speech.

I, for one, am glad that the greatest information network ever created by humankind exists so we can tell if a politician drank water.
posted by zachlipton at 12:51 PM on November 15, 2017 [32 favorites]


He's talking about how he told China what's what during his visit. I'm really curious to hear China's version of the meeting, and something tells me we'll hear it soon.
posted by Rykey at 12:51 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


He drinks again, holding the bottle in a pawlike grasp with both hands and raising it to his puckered maw like a shaved and trained bear. It is a very weird way to drink water.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:52 PM on November 15, 2017 [40 favorites]


Fiji is in Asia, isn't it? Asia adjacent? Anyway, more proof of the fruits of his record-setting trip to Asia.
posted by notyou at 12:53 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


This speech, reviewed:

@JohnDingell: Lucky us. We get to listen to Trump poorly stumble through a dramatic reading of his vacation newsletter.

@ddale8: In case anyone was wondering, this is not a "major statement." This is like when the teacher makes the kid who went on a safari do a show-and-tell when he comes back.

He walked out ignoring shouted questions on Moore.
posted by zachlipton at 12:57 PM on November 15, 2017 [57 favorites]


soren_lorensen: They could absolutely 100% pass something that was just mildly evil, but they keep trying for the brass ring of completely diabolical. And then freaking out that they're unable to pass anything. I don't get it.

Because the idiot in chief wants 15% corporate tax rate (Bloomberg, Sept. 24) -- so if the corporate rate isn't low enough, he could just not sign it.

And benefits of cutting the corporate tax rate get a lot of play on the conservative side (link to Tax Foundation article from 2011, with a listicle of 10 reasons it's good to cut the corporate tax rate, but the only mentions of how low it should go are two proposals to bring it down to 25 or 24 percent, not 20%).
posted by filthy light thief at 12:58 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Fiji is Oceania, but could be considered part of "Asia-Pacific region".
posted by orrnyereg at 12:59 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


zachlipton: In case anyone was wondering, this is not a "major statement." This is like when the teacher makes the kid who went on a safari do a show-and-tell when he comes back.

Exactly. Nothingburger with extra ketchup and soggy fries. Didn't stay to take any questions, not just questions about Moore.

Also, Trump noted he's the first foreign leader to dine in Forbidden City since founding of modern China (CNN, November 8, 2017 with auto-playing video -_-), but he didn't mention what he ate.

Because he could also have bragged that he was the first person to have McDonalds in the Forbidden City, in forever.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:01 PM on November 15, 2017 [9 favorites]


in conclusion asia is a land of contrasts
posted by entropicamericana at 1:06 PM on November 15, 2017 [21 favorites]


I haven't picked a plan on the marketplace yet. My choices, for a family of three, in texas where there is no Medicare expansion, in the Dallas area where there are only three available providers, start at a low, low price of $1649, and go all the way up to the bargain price of $2,300. A month. With deductible of 7k per person. No subsidies. Oh, and lupus meds and doctors aren't in plan, and I can't apply treatment as part of my deductible or out of pocket costs.

I'm a freelancer, because after 50, there are no more permanent jobs in tech for women, or at least I have had no luck finding a "real job" that offers insurance. My husband is an astonishingly good data analyst, and no job he interviewed for offered insurance,everyone at small and start-ups are being pushed into the marketplace, which has been devastated by the republicans.

If we lose the medical and mortgage deductions, I will have to work full time just to pay insurance and taxes. It will come in close to 50% of our total income. That's not counting our actual mortgage and interest, that's just the property tax which has gone up 70% in seven years, and the expected 30k in healthcare sunk cost in insurance. If they kill the mandate, and premiums go up again, I don't know what we'll do. It's unsustainable now.

I have this really bad feeling that I'm going to have to sell my house. And we're fairy stable middle class folks. This will tip seniors and low income earners right out of their homes. Homes which will be snapped up by rent seekers, who get the tax benefits that used to go to homeowners that financed all the local schools, roads and infrastructure.

This bill also eliminates charitable deductions, because of course it does.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:09 PM on November 15, 2017 [91 favorites]


They could absolutely 100% pass something that was just mildly evil, but they keep trying for the brass ring of completely diabolical. And then freaking out that they're unable to pass anything. I don't get it.

Proposing less than Snidely Whiplash Grade Evil results in:
* The Mirror Universe Media freaking out
* Social media freaking out
* The Preznit making snide remarks
* The RINO label
* Accusations of Compromising with Democrats, which is a mortal sin
* True Conservative(tm) primary challengers
* The Sheldon Adelsons of the world threatening to cut your campaign funding off, along with body parts

The people paying for putting them in office don't want incremental change. They are rich and old and they want a lot more money right goddamned now. And they know how to make the rubes demand precisely that.
posted by delfin at 1:10 PM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


He drinks again, holding the bottle in a pawlike grasp with both hands and raising it to his puckered maw like a shaved and trained bear

the way a recently-screamsobbing toddler holds a sippy cup
posted by poffin boffin at 1:12 PM on November 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


I try not to snark in the main politics thread, but... what new hotel did he announce?
posted by Yowser at 1:19 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


I think this is just a bargaining position, not least because his objection is 'please cut more taxes for the wealthy' and not a substantive objection to the overall framework of the bill.

Ron Johnson isn't Rand Paul. He's done the same dance before. He'll cave.

It's funny, because the vote is so close, any one of the Senate Republicans can pull a Lieberman and gum up the whole works for concessions. I'm surprise that Republicans aren't doing more of that.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:22 PM on November 15, 2017


god he must think he met the emperor
posted by poffin boffin at 1:22 PM on November 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


By the way, if you're Pennsylvanian and want to get FIRED THE FUCK UP about what a sentient sack of lying Koch-owned shitbaggery Pat Toomey is, take a look at his Twitter. In particular, hey ho, look at this misleading bullshit-oh.

Also, because another Pennsylvania mefite asked me about this, here's the script I used in calling Toomey's office today:
My name is ___________. I am a Pennsylvania resident and a constituent of Senator Toomey's. I am calling to express my deep disappointment at Senator Toomey's support for the Senate version of the tax bill, particularly because he is spreading false and misleading information about it. On Twitter, he is claiming the tax bill will not affect health care for individuals. That is not true. Non-partisan CBO calculations show that repealing the individual mandate means 13 million people will become uninsured. This means rates go up for healthy people, too.

I am disappointed that my Senator would present false, misleading information. I am further disappointed that he is doing it support of a bill that not only makes health care more expensive, but gives corporations permanent tax cuts and only giving real Pennsylvanian families temporary relief. This is outrageous.

Slamming down the phone afterwards was cathartic! Knowing that other Mefites are calling Pat Toomey and making his staffers lives frantic is cathartic!
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:24 PM on November 15, 2017 [34 favorites]


FYI there are 3 McDonalds within a mile of Forbidden City
posted by fluttering hellfire at 1:25 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


It's funny, because the vote is so close, any one of the Senate Republicans can pull a Lieberman and gum up the whole works for concessions. I'm surprise that Republicans aren't doing more of that.

I expect they would be, except the ongoing shitshow in Alabama has put a running clock on this thing the way even the expiration of the budget in September couldn't. If Doug Jones joins the Senate then nothing passes on party-line votes without at least one of Murkowski and Collins, ever.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:27 PM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


"Vox, Dara Lind,The Trump administration rejected 4,000 “late” DACA renewals. Some were sitting in its mailbox at the deadline. In which DACA recipients sue the government because their applications were declared late even though they were sitting in the proper mailbox on-time."

Nobody told the Trump team that first-year law students spend like a MONTH in Contracts class on How The US Mail Affects Contracts And Their Effective Dates And Constructive Notice And Shit Like That. Literally any lawyer in America could have told them this was a punk-ass move inviting a really good lawsuit.

Also this makes me pretty sure Trump avoids jury duty by tearing up the notice he receives and saying, "I never got it! Everyone knows the mail is terrible! They can't prove it didn't get lost in the mail!" Probably also how he "pays" subcontractors.

"They could absolutely 100% pass something that was just mildly evil, but they keep trying for the brass ring of completely diabolical. And then freaking out that they're unable to pass anything. I don't get it."

They're so greedy! They're so fucking greedy. And I don't just mean Republicans, but Chamber of Commerce types and the Koch-like CEOs and so on who aren't content with 80% of the cookie -- they're going to take THE WHOLE DAMN COOKIE and then be shocked when someone finally punches them in the face about it.

Some days my one big hope is that they'll overreach so far the resulting reaction will send us straight into luxury gay space communism.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:30 PM on November 15, 2017 [60 favorites]


They're busy trying to buy Murkowski's vote on taxes by opening up the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling, in case you thought she was going to be your third no vote.
posted by zachlipton at 1:33 PM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


Talking Tax (a podcast; 11m runtime) interviewed Dave Camp this morning re tax reform (Camp is a former GOP Ways and Means chair and is now at PwC). There are earlier episodes w/ people from EY on the House (21m) and Senate (26m) proposals.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:34 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Rainbo Vagrant: "Right now when someone says "impeach Trump," a lot of the response will be "For what?" "

Violations of the Emoluments Clause? I mean I realize it's laughably small potatoes in this shit storm that is the Cheeto's presidency but it's also a clear and obvious violation of the Constitution by the President since day 1.
posted by Mitheral at 1:36 PM on November 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


I expect they would be, except the ongoing shitshow in Alabama has put a running clock on this thing the way even the expiration of the budget in September couldn't. If Doug Jones joins the Senate then nothing passes on party-line votes without at least one of Murkowski and Collins, ever.

As an individual Republican senator, why do I care? I don't care about the success of leadership, and by the time I come up for reelection, this will be two to four years in the past.

If I'm in a purple state, I'll look like a hero in the general election. If I'm in a purple state, there's also a strong disincentive to primary me from the right, because it'll just result in a seat lost to the Democrats.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:37 PM on November 15, 2017


It’s a Trump trifecta.

Eh, I don't know. A trifecta implies to me three unlikely events.
posted by ctmf at 1:38 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


I hate Trump even more than the next guy but impeaching him based on the Emoluments Clause is the weakest of weak sauce. Yeah, they got Al Capone on tax fraud but that's not how impeachment should work.
posted by Justinian at 1:38 PM on November 15, 2017


yeah i have some ideas
posted by poffin boffin at 1:40 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


there's fire in most of them
posted by poffin boffin at 1:41 PM on November 15, 2017 [17 favorites]


As an individual Republican senator, why do I care? I don't care about the success of leadership, and by the time I come up for reelection, this will be two to four years in the past.

Lindsey Graham has said it, plain as day: If the GOP doesn't Do Something on taxes, then the money spigot might shut off. Sure, it's only a threat -- if it comes down to that, will the Kochs really sit back and not take sides against a Democrat in a swing district? -- but do you want to be the one to call them on it?

Also, I fail to see how openly taking bribes from foreign governments is weaksauce.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:41 PM on November 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


Steve Mnuchin was photographed along with his wife with the first sheet of dollar bills with his name on it (yeah, we have to deal with that now too), and it's really not a good look, especially the shit-eating grin.

One of the early plotlines for the GI Joe comic had Cobra breaking into the Bureau of Engraving and Printing so they could put super-plague germs all over the plates for the $20 bill, thereby infecting millions.
And not one of them was as dickish about it as Mnuchin and his wife are in that photo.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:43 PM on November 15, 2017 [29 favorites]


@c_m_dangelo: The @SafariClubIntl (a hunter advocacy group) — not the @USFWS — announces the Trump administration's reversal of an Obama-era ban on importing elephant trophies from Zimbabwe and Zambia. #2017

I guess Junior is off to shoot more elephants then? What a disgrace.
posted by zachlipton at 1:47 PM on November 15, 2017 [33 favorites]


Junior murders elephants, Senior destroys the Republican party...

Maybe the Trump family just really hates elephants?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:53 PM on November 15, 2017 [28 favorites]


@marcorubio
Similar,but needs work on his form.Has to be done in one single motion & eyes should never leave the camera. But not bad for his 1st time
posted by chris24 at 1:53 PM on November 15, 2017 [32 favorites]


one of my ideas now involves enraged elephants
posted by poffin boffin at 1:55 PM on November 15, 2017 [29 favorites]


National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo: Eternal sunshine of the spotless Sessions
On the whole, Jeff Sessions has been much happier since the procedure.

It is only when he is called periodically before Congress and questioned about anything he has done at any time that it becomes inconvenient.

A memory is an unpleasant thing to have. A private record of every humiliation that taunts you as you go about your business from day to day is always a hard sell. In the Trump administration, it is a positive hazard. Any memory of history would remind you of similarities to Creepy Despots and Generally Bad Eras In Human History and suggest that These Tax Policies Were Tried Before With Marginally Better Accounting And Even Then They Didn’t Work. Any memory of your own past would be full of inexplicable Russian contacts and people like George Papadopoulos. At a certain point, you just want the noise to stop and to clear any images of Sergey Kislyak from your central cache.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:55 PM on November 15, 2017 [19 favorites]


> Some days my one big hope is that they'll overreach so far the resulting reaction will send us straight into luxury gay space communism.

2017: the year Eyebrows McGee became an accelerationist.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:56 PM on November 15, 2017 [30 favorites]


...the Trump administration's reversal of an Obama-era ban on importing elephant trophies from Zimbabwe and Zambia.

Bah, this is disgusting. And I'm sure they won't care to lift the (in comparison: stupid) ban on historical artefacts with ivory, and pre-1976 legally acquired ivory in, for instance, musical instruments--a ban that has made certain kinds of travel, trade and re-location almost impossible in museal and musical professions.
posted by Namlit at 1:56 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


To be "fair" to TPUSA, the Weinstein tweet was apparently supposed to be a "hilarious" reference to sexual assaulter Harvey Weinstein, and not at all an anti-Semitic reference to Jews with their hands in peoples' pockets.

FFS.
posted by hanov3r at 1:57 PM on November 15, 2017


FYI there are 3 McDonalds within a mile of Forbidden City

How many did Trump visit
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:01 PM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


To be "fair" to TPUSA, the Weinstein tweet was apparently supposed to be a "hilarious" reference to sexual assaulter Harvey Weinstein, and not at all an anti-Semitic reference to Jews with their hands in peoples' pockets.

Por que no los dos?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 2:01 PM on November 15, 2017 [15 favorites]


hanov3r : To be "fair" to TPUSA, the Weinstein tweet was apparently supposed to be a "hilarious" reference to sexual assaulter Harvey Weinstein, and not at all an anti-Semitic reference to Jews with their hands in peoples' pockets.

I believe the tweet intentionally admits both readings, for plausible deniability. It would be easier to write something unequivocally about Harvey and sexual abuse, rather than that that mangled joke. (To be fair again, maybe the writer learned the craft of lucid joke-telling from Mike Huckabee.)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 2:04 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Reality Winner got burned by Matthew Cole, not Greenwald, like the hit piece you site claims, SakuraK.

As I understood it, Reality Winner would've gotten caught even if she had gone through tech savvy people like wikileaks, due to logs created by how she duplicated material on-site, but the blame still rests with her article's authors Matthew Cole, Richard Esposito, Sam Biddle, Ryan Grim, any tech personnel The Intercept has to sanitize leaks, and whoever hired those people. In the larger picture, Winner's case shows why we need tech savvy groups like wikileaks to process major leaks by people without 'elite immunity'. As a rule, Journalists lack the skills, paranoia, etc. for source protection.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:15 PM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


Reality Winner got burned by Matthew Cole, not Greenwald, like the hit piece you site claims, SakuraK.

And the tweet you linked says:

@JohnKiriakou
.@theintercept should be ashamed of itself. Matthew Cole burns yet another source. It makes your entire organization untrustworthy.

---

Umm, who created and leads the Intercept? Think maybe he had a role in one of the biggest stories the Intercept has had? Think he helped set up/approved policies and procedures on how to handle info?
posted by chris24 at 2:18 PM on November 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


A Week After Virginia Election Sweep, Democrats Join Republicans for More Bank Deregulation
posted by jeffburdges at 2:19 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Elephants are one of a small handful of species that are demonstrably self-aware. Anybody who kills one for fun is a thrill-murderer and I consider Donald Trump Jr. to be one of them.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:21 PM on November 15, 2017 [62 favorites]


The emoluments clause is filler that backs up saying, "Trump has committed an impeachable offense every day in office".

And if he goes under on that, he can still face prosecution out of office for literally everything else, right? There's not a weird, "losing the presidency was punishment enough" clause, right?
posted by Slackermagee at 2:22 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


@LarrySabato
You rarely if ever see near-unanimity like this: new Quinnipiac poll shows, by 95-4%, Americans favor universal background checks. Highest % ever. Broad support for other gun reforms too. Crickets in DC, as usual.


And relatedly...

@ChrisMurphyCT (CT Senator)
Big news: super close to a bipartisan breakthrough on gun legislation. Stay tuned...
posted by chris24 at 2:23 PM on November 15, 2017 [37 favorites]


Here is what I don't understand: The GOP is clearly desperate to pass something. They need something to take back to their masters to show that they're not a bunch of incompetent morons. (Narrator: They are.) Why do they keep trying to pass shit that isn't just terrible, but MONUMENTALLY MUSTACHE-TWIRLING AWFUL?

This is the multiplicative nature of slight evil. If you take a large collection of slightly evil people and tell them to work on something their evils don't merely combine in an additive fashion. They multiply by each other. They don't all have the same masters. They don't all want the same harmful policies. But if you are put in Bob's harmful policy then you have to put in Ken's too. And if you put in Bob and Ken's then you have to put in Orin's. Then the next you know you have something that not even the Koch brothers will admit to wanting.
posted by srboisvert at 2:25 PM on November 15, 2017 [12 favorites]


WikiLeaks has been carrying water for the Russian government for a long time. Their DMs with Don Jr and their refusal to publish leaks which would be damaging to Putin show that they are a lot more interested in appearing neutral than actually being neutral.We do not need that kind of tech savvy group "processing major leaks" thanks. By refusing to redact personal info on people in Turkey and Belarus, they have almost certainly gotten people killed.

And the more Greenwald defends them, and downplays what Russia did, the more I think he is also just a tool.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:27 PM on November 15, 2017 [35 favorites]


They're so greedy! They're so fucking greedy. And I don't just mean Republicans, but Chamber of Commerce types and the Koch-like CEOs and so on who aren't content with 80% of the cookie -- they're going to take THE WHOLE DAMN COOKIE and then be shocked when someone finally punches them in the face about it.


They will be shocked when they find out they can't get anymore cookie because nobody but them has cookie.

Everyone else will learn to do without cookie and people will even forget about cookie.

Then nobody will even want cookie and cookie will be worthless.

And cookie will all be put in garbage can on a certain street.
posted by srboisvert at 2:32 PM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


A Week After Virginia Election Sweep, Democrats Join Republicans for More Bank Deregulation

That's discouraging, for sure, but we wouldn't have had a Dodd-Frank to dismantle today without those big Democratic majorities in the late Oughts.
posted by notyou at 2:32 PM on November 15, 2017


That depends on which aspect of "like Wikileaks" you're talking about.

Do we need more orgs that carry water for Putin? Fuck no!

Do we need more orgs that are like Wikileaks in aspects other than carrying water for Putin? Yeah maybe.

Put it this way. If Assange was a good, honest, guy trying to do the right thing instead of being a rapist who supports Putin, if the whole organization actually was what it claimed to be, would you support them?
posted by VTX at 2:32 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


When you can't even get Gowdy to agree with going after Clinton...

Gowdy: I Don’t Think ‘Threshold Has Been Met’ For Clinton Special Counsel
posted by chris24 at 2:34 PM on November 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


> This is the multiplicative nature of slight evil. If you take a large collection of slightly evil people and tell them to work on something their evils don't merely combine in an additive fashion. They multiply by each other. They don't all have the same masters. They don't all want the same harmful policies. But if you are put in Bob's harmful policy then you have to put in Ken's too. And if you put in Bob and Ken's then you have to put in Orin's. Then the next you know you have something that not even the Koch brothers will admit to wanting.

this would result in a tendency towards non-evil if everyone involved had a fractional amount of evil, though. I think you need to specify that evil is measured in natural numbers.

though if evil can be denominated in real numbers, there's a sort of insight about the relative importance of personal purity. If everyone in a group has an amount of personal evil that's less than 1, the total evil of the group remains small even as the number of people in the group gets large. So it's okay to be a little bit evil, so long as you keep your evil in the range from 0 to 1.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:35 PM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


Trump Judicial Nominee Brett Talley Appears to Have Defended “the First KKK” in Message Board Post
posted by zombieflanders at 2:35 PM on November 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


Put it this way. If Assange was a good, honest, guy trying to do the right thing instead of being a rapist who supports Putin, if the whole organization actually was what it claimed to be, would you support them?

Yes, I would support your hypothetical orange over the actual apple we have.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:36 PM on November 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


And cookie will all be put in garbage can on a certain street.

Of course it's not enough to steal all the wealth in the world, they have to litter all over someone's home too!
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:37 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


The problem with a hypothetical 'Wikileaks that doesn't suck' is that having an organization in that position means they have a certain amount of power. They will still be deciding how to present information and what information to present and that makes them a target for influence by power brokers like Russia. It's not surprising that WL was corrupted because humans are corruptible and organizations are just humans but stupider.
posted by threeturtles at 2:41 PM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


Three unrelated items:

New dollar bills

Black sharpie pen

Line over signature
posted by njohnson23 at 2:42 PM on November 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


this would result in a tendency towards non-evil if everyone involved had a fractional amount of evil, though.

Sounds like an argument against the Linear, No Threshold theory. Evil could also be hormetic, in that a little evil is a good thing (it enables you to recognize it in others instead of being a rube) but at some point becomes harmful. I think it's safer to assume LNT and keep evil "As Low As Reasonably Achievable" just in case. (/radcon joke)
posted by ctmf at 2:43 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


If Assange was a good, honest, guy trying to do the right thing instead of being a rapist who supports Putin, if the whole organization actually was what it claimed to be, would you support them?

And if the wall were truly going to keep out only rapists and murderers, if more guns made us safer rather than more vulnerable, if anti-abortion laws actually kept women safer, then I’d be supporting all of those things, too.

Wikileaks is a destructive force which promotes anti-Democratic forces around the world, including here at home. Saying “but it could be great!” misses the point. It’s not. Wikileaks has proven that organizations like it can’t be trusted. Wikileaks is such a tool of propaganda at this point that it’s poisoned similar institutions forever.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 2:47 PM on November 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


Yes, I would support your hypothetical orange over the actual apple we have.

Great! We're talking about the need for oranges instead of the apple that claims to be an orange we actually have.

In the larger picture, Winner's case shows why we need tech savvy groups like wikileaks to process major leaks by people without 'elite immunity'. As a rule, Journalists lack the skills, paranoia, etc. for source protection.

So, fuck Wikileaks but we could use some more organizations like Wikileaks in the ways that we LIKE Wikileaks that are NOT like Wikileaks in the ways that Wikileaks is shitty.

The comment is not about Wikileaks but Wikileaks is the only well known example of the kind of thing we need more of. Again, what we need more of is transparency organizations that would allow whistle blowers to blow their whistles with some hope of anonymity. Reality Winner certainly could have made use of such an organization. It's totally reasonable to assume that she didn't use Wikileaks because she doesn't trust them for the same reasons we don't trust them.

Wikileaks sucks but we could certainly use an organization like that but that doesn't suck.
posted by VTX at 3:01 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


This is the multiplicative nature of slight evil. If you take a large collection of slightly evil people and tell them to work on something their evils don't merely combine in an additive fashion.

In pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics, this is called potentiation. The potentiation of evil.
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:04 PM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


I hate Trump even more than the next guy but impeaching him based on the Emoluments Clause is the weakest of weak sauce. Yeah, they got Al Capone on tax fraud but that's not how impeachment should work.

How about two proven counts of violations of the Emoluments Clause, Obstruction of Justice for firing Comey, undermining the Freedom of the Press and the independence of the judiciary, all of which are violations of his oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. Those are the charges in Rep. Cohen's impeachment motion, and they are far from "the weakest of the weak sauce". I'm curious why someone would try to minimize these impeachable offenses.
posted by vibrotronica at 3:05 PM on November 15, 2017 [21 favorites]


Mod note: Folks, let's drop the "how good would a hypothetical non-wikileaks wikileaks be" thing, it's not gonna go anywhere productive.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:06 PM on November 15, 2017 [22 favorites]


And the more Greenwald defends them, and downplays what Russia did, the more I think he is also just a tool.

"Tool" implies a person that's unwitting or unconscious of what they're being used for. I'm sure at this point Greenwald knows exactly what he's doing, and is justifying it in the name of the greater good. So we need a term for that...
posted by happyroach at 3:13 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Gowdy: I Don’t Think ‘Threshold Has Been Met’ For Clinton Special Counsel

We must descend further!
posted by srboisvert at 3:15 PM on November 15, 2017


Of course Wikileaks was subverted. Everything gets subverted and has been for decades. I'm amazed we have any working social mechanisms at all.

Bruce Schneier has a great story about his experience with the "ant farms" sold by Uncle Milton Industries:
Uncle Milton Industries has been selling ant farms to children since 1956. Some years ago, I remember opening one up with a friend. There were no actual ants included in the box. Instead, there was a card that you filled in with your address, and the company would mail you some ants. My friend expressed surprise that you could get ants sent to you in the mail.

I replied: "What's really interesting is that these people will send a tube of live ants to anyone you tell them to."

Sending unsolicited ants is an expensive way to give somebody a trivial amount of annoyance, but I'm pretty sure it's been done, if only because Schneier put the idea in people's heads. But that's the mindset we need to have: we need to ask ourselves how our social mechanisms can and will be subverted, and build resilience into them and our selves so that we still have the good outcomes. The creation of Russia Today and Press TV didn't mean the end of journalism; Donald Trump doesn't mean the end of party politics. Wikileaks was subverted, but the idea of a robust anonymous information agency is a good one, and the next iteration won't be the private fief of a paranoid man-child. We can't keep abandoning things to the trolls.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:36 PM on November 15, 2017 [39 favorites]


More evidence of writerly fuckery:
No, says CIA clandestine service veteran John Sipher. As an intelligence officer, “it’s my job to recruit sources who have access to gaps in knowledge,” he says. “And I’m getting promoted for finding new sources.”
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:41 PM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


Metafilter: keep your evil in the range from 0 to 1.
posted by riverlife at 3:58 PM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


We all saw the clip of Shep Smith dismantling the Uranium One conspiracy theory, right?

God damn he's a national hero.
posted by Talez at 4:00 PM on November 15, 2017 [21 favorites]


Sending unsolicited ants is an expensive way to give somebody a trivial amount of annoyance, but I'm pretty sure it's been done, if only because Schneier put the idea in people's heads.

When I was in college, I nearly had a preserved reproductive tract of a cow mailed to an unpleasant TA.

Some ideas sound better at 3 AM.
posted by delfin at 4:04 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Why does Fox keep Smith on board? He spouts facts a lot.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 4:04 PM on November 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


God damn he's a national hero martyr, after the FoxNews audience is through with him.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:05 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


God damn he's a national hero martyr, after the FoxNews audience is through with him.

This isn't the first time he's done this. Shep has been Fox's straight man for years.
posted by Talez at 4:07 PM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


These fuckers make Ronnie look good.

@maxbsawicky
In 1986 Reagan raised the corporate income tax, used proceeds to cut the individual income tax. This gang is doing exactly the opposite. #SoMuchWinning
posted by chris24 at 4:08 PM on November 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


Such a tough race for worst secondary character in this reality show.

Forbes: Three Former Colleagues Sue Secretary Of Commerce Wilbur Ross
Three longtime colleagues of Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross filed a lawsuit against him and his old private equity shop WL Ross & Co. on Wednesday, accusing Ross and the firm of charging millions in improper fees and taking the money for themselves.

According to the lawsuit, WL Ross charged at least $48 million in management fees to its funds’ general partners—which manage money on behalf of investors. The former employees, who retained interests in WL Ross funds after leaving the firm, contend that those types of fees should have been charged only to outside investors, not to the entities managing the funds.
posted by chris24 at 4:12 PM on November 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


Shep Smith is the twice a day that the stopped clock that's Fox News is right.
posted by hanov3r at 4:15 PM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


You can get ladybugs sent to anybody but i would never misuse this as ladybugs are good.
posted by Artw at 4:16 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Fox News anchor debunks 'Clinton uranium scandal' – and sparks viewer fury
posted by Artw at 4:17 PM on November 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


In 'I guess better late than never' news, Twitter revoked the verified status of Richard Spencer and Charlottesville organizer Jason Kessler and permanently banned Baked Alaska. Mr. Alaska is not taking it well. VIDEO
posted by chris24 at 4:17 PM on November 15, 2017 [42 favorites]


But... nazis! YOU PROMISED THEM, JACK HELLSITE!
posted by Artw at 4:19 PM on November 15, 2017


Mr. Alaska is not taking it well.

There will never be enough milk.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:21 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Why not just ban SPencer though, it's not like they don't know who he is.
posted by Artw at 4:22 PM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


They pulled Laura Loomer's verified checkmark too. She's also banned from Uber and Lyft.
posted by zachlipton at 4:26 PM on November 15, 2017 [23 favorites]


Shep has been Fox's straight man for years.

I see what you did there.
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:40 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


As for why Shep Smith sticks around, according to Adweek, his deal in 2013, his deal was second only to O'Reilly's at the network. I suspect that he would likely get a giant chunk of his total contract's value if they just let him go. Likewise, he is unlikely to get a similar salary elsewhere if he were to voluntarily leave.
posted by mmascolino at 4:40 PM on November 15, 2017


They could absolutely 100% pass something that was just mildly evil, but they keep trying for the brass ring of completely diabolical. And then freaking out that they're unable to pass anything. I don't get it.

Fairly far upthread, but still, I, too, can't figure this out. It's like watching people repeatedly try to move a couch through a doorway back first. Like they seem to lack the spatial reasoning ability for it even to occur to them to turn and go through armrest-wise. They just keep bashing that whole six-foot couch back against the 36-inch doorway over and over. Meanwhile I'm biting my nails and getting a perforated ulcer hoping we get out of this mess before they figure it out.

I mean, I'm glad they're failing, but Jesus, it's also disturbing to have this level of density in Congress on any side.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:46 PM on November 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


FOX pays well for someone willing to light their journalistic reputation on fire. Smith and Chris Wallace knew exactly what they were signing on for when they took the 30 (million) pieces of silver.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:46 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


the whole "verified" debacle on twitter is just another symptom of the company having absolutely no understanding of the use case for any feature it develops, including the feature of "short text messages"
posted by murphy slaw at 4:48 PM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


As for why Shep Smith sticks around....

If the goal of a journalist is to bring accurate news and information to people who don't know it yet, where else could he possibly accomplish more than by telling Fox "News" viewers the truth?

It's like Jesus said when asked why he hung out with sinners -- (paraphrasing) -- "I'm not here to heal the healthy."
posted by msalt at 4:51 PM on November 15, 2017 [24 favorites]


They just keep bashing that whole six-foot couch back against the 36-inch doorway over and over.

That's just because they'd never previously come across any irreversible mathematics involving sofas. Could be a new field. Have they consulted any spatial geometricians?
posted by christopherious at 4:53 PM on November 15, 2017 [8 favorites]


In 1986 Reagan raised the corporate income tax, used proceeds to cut the individual income tax. This gang is doing exactly the opposite.

Why is this not blaring from every TV and radio in the U.S.? And who are the idiots in charge of messaging for Democrats. I swear I could do better starting tomorrow with no experience.
posted by msalt at 4:53 PM on November 15, 2017 [43 favorites]


Fairly far upthread, but still, I, too, can't figure this out. It's like watching people repeatedly try to move a couch through a doorway back first. Like they seem to lack the spatial reasoning ability for it even to occur to them to turn and go through armrest-wise. They just keep bashing that whole six-foot couch back against the 36-inch doorway over and over. Meanwhile I'm biting my nails and getting a perforated ulcer hoping we get out of this mess before they figure it out.

So back in my grad school days I participated in just such foolishness when a friend moved. Coincidentally he worked in a neuroscience lab that used mental rotation of 3D objects as one of their methodologies for trying to unlock the mysteries of the human brain. Four PhD candidates struggled for about half an hour to get a couch through the doorway to an apartment. Then the renter's mom showed up and said "Do it like this" and the couch glided in without even touching the door frame.

Do the Republican's have any mom's working on this budget?
posted by srboisvert at 4:54 PM on November 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


Shep spreads mostly falsehoods, and when he says something true he allows Fox to shore up their reputation as "fair, balanced, and unafraid." He's a sop, who's mostly a disinformation agent. He isn't your friend. He isn't a journalist. He isn't principled.
posted by codacorolla at 4:55 PM on November 15, 2017 [22 favorites]


Jesus didn't just hang out with sinners...he hung out with Republicans and sinners. Says so right there in the Bible.
posted by uosuaq at 4:56 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Fairly far upthread, but still, I, too, can't figure this out. It's like watching people repeatedly try to move a couch through a doorway back first. Like they seem to lack the spatial reasoning ability for it even to occur to them to turn and go through armrest-wise. They just keep bashing that whole six-foot couch back against the 36-inch doorway over and over. Meanwhile I'm biting my nails and getting a perforated ulcer hoping we get out of this mess before they figure it out.

This also reminds me of a classic episode of Friends. "Pivot!"
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:56 PM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


We all saw the clip of Shep Smith dismantling the Uranium One conspiracy theory, right?

God damn he's a national hero.

Nope.

He is the smallpox scab that they use to give themselves immunity to facts. He is the salad on the McDonald's menu that you feel good about considering before you buy the Big Mac.
posted by srboisvert at 4:58 PM on November 15, 2017 [18 favorites]


More info on Sen. Murphy's earlier tweet.

NBC: Senators near bipartisan deal on gun control, sources say
A bipartisan group of senators are close to a deal on legislation that would improve background checks for gun sales, three Senate sources familiar with the effort said Wednesday.

The bill, crafted by Sens. John Cornyn, R.-Texas, and Chris Murphy, D-Conn., would incentivize states to strengthen the National Instant Criminal Background Check system to ensure all background check information is uploaded. The bill is expected to come Wednesday evening, with an official announcement Thursday.

While narrow in scope, it is perhaps the best chance for Congress to respond to the series of mass shootings, the sources said.

Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn., and Sen. Tim Scott, R-S.C., have also signed onto the bill, giving it more weight.

Both Murphy, who has advocated for gun control legislation since the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2013, and Blumenthal hinted at an agreement earlier Wednesday on Twitter. Meanwhile, Cornyn, the Senate majority whip, told reporters Sunday, "We need to fix this broken background check system."
posted by chris24 at 5:02 PM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


> Fairly far upthread, but still, I, too, can't figure this out. It's like watching people repeatedly try to move a couch through a doorway back first. Like they seem to lack the spatial reasoning ability for it even to occur to them to turn and go through armrest-wise. They just keep bashing that whole six-foot couch back against the 36-inch doorway over and over.

So, it turns out owning things isn't a job. And so what we're seeing is people who've never worked a day in their lives — they don't make a living by working, they make a living by owning — trying to do a job by themselves instead of having their employees do it for them. It's going... awkwardly.

There's a documentary series from the mid-2000s that's all about this sort of situation. IIRC the title was Arrested Development.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:04 PM on November 15, 2017 [50 favorites]


Progress! Tiny, tiny grudging progress! Boy is the base going to be pissed off.
posted by Artw at 5:05 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


They just keep bashing that whole six-foot couch back against the 36-inch doorway over and over.

If you don't care about ever having to sit on the couch, and you sure don't give a shit if the doorframe gets destroyed, "more force" is a strategy that will eventually work.
posted by ctmf at 5:07 PM on November 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


So, it turns out owning things isn't a job. And so what we're seeing is people who've never worked a day in their lives — they don't make a living by working, they make a living by owning — trying to do a job by themselves instead of having their employees do it for them. It's going... awkwardly.

That's true of the Trump Admin. But this clusterfuck of a tax bill is not written by them; it's coming from a bunch of (theoretically) professional politicians with long experience making their hapless staffers write actual passable legislation rather than crazypants draconian anarcho-capitalist libertarian wet dreams-on-paper that most of their own party can't even stand.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:11 PM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


> Some days my one big hope is that they'll overreach so far the resulting reaction will send us straight into luxury gay space communism.

Okay I know I've already commented on this, but I'd like to add a little note on language. Although it would be pretty good if the resulting reaction sent us straight into luxury gay space communism, it would be better if it sent us queer into luxury gay space communism.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:14 PM on November 15, 2017 [35 favorites]


The bill...would incentivize states to strengthen the National Instant Criminal Background Check system to ensure all background check information is uploaded.

It's not nothing, but I imagine half the states will say "No thanks" and eat the penalties.
posted by orange ball at 5:15 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


I realize that sounded pessimistic: I think gun control will be a long process and I'm glad to see it addressed , especially in a bipartisan manner.
posted by orange ball at 5:25 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


National Instant Criminal Background Check

So disappointed in the people who name things sometimes. They couldn't put an L-word in there, so we'd have to look people up in the NICL-Back system?
posted by ctmf at 5:28 PM on November 15, 2017 [44 favorites]


so we'd have to look people up in the NICL-Back system?

you are literally a monster and deploying that level of pun should itself require special licensing
posted by halation at 5:37 PM on November 15, 2017 [59 favorites]


> NICL-Back system?

yes troll the right wing by naming the gun control system after a bunch of canadians very good idea.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:37 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


NICL-back Checks - this is how you remind me
posted by ctmf at 5:41 PM on November 15, 2017 [19 favorites]


Think I’d sell a gun to a guy like this? I mean, just LOOK AT THIS PHOTOGRAPH
posted by Sys Rq at 5:54 PM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


It's important to get under the skin of the Shep Smiths of the world. IIRC derision from Shep and Geraldo after Katrina was a big part of Repubs turning against Dubya.
posted by Lyme Drop at 6:20 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


Charles Manson is on his deathbed apparently. Maybe the 2017 darkest timeline is his fever dream and will fizzle out soon.
posted by ian1977 at 6:57 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


Okay I know I've already commented on this, but I'd like to add a little note on language. Although it would be pretty good if the resulting reaction sent us straight into luxury gay space communism, it would be better if it sent us queer into luxury gay space communism.

"Gaily forward", you mean.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:59 PM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


It's a bottle of Fiji water.

Ah, crap.

*dumps rest of Fiji water in yard*

NO McDonalds, NO Fiji water, and NO cocaine. Fine! You shite bastards!

/snif
posted by petebest at 7:01 PM on November 15, 2017 [13 favorites]


Fiji has a $150m trade imbalance with the US. Why wasn't he drinking American?
posted by chris24 at 7:05 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


Fiji seems like a tone-deaf choice, too.

It’s foreign (and there are plenty of domestic bottled waters), and it looks premium to people who shop at regular grocery stores, and premium mediocre to rich people and people with strong opinions about bottled water.

Two choices, both dumb: Piss-off-the-libs, or poor-man’s-idea-of-a-rich-man’s-bottled-water?
posted by box at 7:10 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


You’d think he’d only drink Moland Springs.
posted by valkane at 7:14 PM on November 15, 2017 [3 favorites]


> "Gaily forward", you mean.

nah that's not how humor works this century. if you wanna be funny in 2017, you must come off like a good-natured but badly designed neural net. Grammatically correct wordplay is passé; instead, we misuse find-and-replace for effect.

NOTE: It is very important to come off like a good-natured badly designed neural net. Good-natured badly designed neural nets are the 21st century version of funny, while ill-tempered badly designed neural nets are the 21st century version of fascist.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:16 PM on November 15, 2017 [11 favorites]


no
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:17 PM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


Justinian: "I hate Trump even more than the next guy but impeaching him based on the Emoluments Clause is the weakest of weak sauce. Yeah, they got Al Capone on tax fraud but that's not how impeachment should work."

It should be for something weak. Otherwise when they finally impeach because the tape showing the Cheeto peeing on a teenager surfaces it sends the message "Presidents can just straight up ignore any law below shooting a man in the face on 5th avenue even when those laws specifically apply to the president." Right now the message is suction graft out of taxpayers in anyway you can while making decisions that are bad for the USA but good for TrumpCo and we'll do nothing.
posted by Mitheral at 7:17 PM on November 15, 2017 [15 favorites]


metafilter: no
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:19 PM on November 15, 2017 [40 favorites]


The Democrat who turned OK-37 blue last night - a district Trump won by 40 - was a 26 year old woman. And a lesbian. Wow.
posted by chris24 at 7:34 PM on November 15, 2017 [71 favorites]


The calls for a new Clinton investigation show how Republicans fuel Trump's authoritarianism: An ominous Justice Department letter raises the specter of a crisis in American democracy.
Congress is supposed to be a powerful check on President Trump’s undeniably authoritarian instincts. But a letter from the Justice Department to the House Judiciary Committee suggests that the opposite is happening — that Congress is actually encouraging Trump to investigate and prosecute his political enemies, something that typically only happens in authoritarian countries.
posted by homunculus at 8:00 PM on November 15, 2017 [16 favorites]


Brian Klaas: Of course it can happen here: Trump’s no despot — but he’s no friend to democracy. I study dictators, and Trump’s attacks on our democratic checks and balances are chillingly familiar
posted by homunculus at 8:04 PM on November 15, 2017 [15 favorites]


So this Senate bill may well increase taxes on 100% of Americans in order to fund permanent corporate tax cuts.

Watching The Rachel Maddow Show's coverage of tax bill shenanigans tonight, I'm finding myself wondering... is there any fundamental rationale for why there need to be separate personal and corporate tax rates and rules? Other than ensuring that the taxes on the 1% can be separately adjusted from those of everyone else?

Or I guess, even if there's a nominal rationale, is there any downside to making the rhetorical point that if Republicans are so gung-ho for "simplifying" the tax code, why do they want there to be separate rates and rules at all? Seems like it might be a good way to communicate and highlight how this legislation is designed to screw most people.

The primary difference I take note of around income levels comparable to an average individual's is that a company can deduct its rent as an expense, but a person can't.

Is there any reason why a student paying tuition / going into student debt or someone with massive medical expenses not covered by insurance, costs well in excess of their income during the relevant year, shouldn't be able to file taxes saying they're "operating at a loss" and stretch those losses out, year after subsequent year, the way our President was able to when he somehow managed to lose money running casinos?

I recognize that there are specific tax breaks offered to individuals (like tuition credits) that might be eliminated in a unified approach, but since they're doing stuff like that anyways—with the elimination of the credit for teachers buying school supplies, for example—if this were a good way to communicate criticism of Republican pro-plutocrat efforts, it might be worth it, even if only as messaging rather than a genuine political goal.

In particular I think that it might slot right into and hijack the usually-spurious right-wing articles of propaganda about "double taxation", which often seem to be based on making deceptive claims about the relationship between the separate corporate and personal tax filings for an individual. I mean, if congressional Republicans aren't pushing to unify the way personal and corporate tax filings are handled, they aren't really serious about eliminating double taxation, right...
posted by XMLicious at 8:04 PM on November 15, 2017 [5 favorites]


And who are the idiots in charge of messaging for Democrats. I swear I could do better starting tomorrow with no experience.

Do you think fine tuning messaging will do any good, when places like PBS are only airing Republican views on issues?
posted by happyroach at 8:12 PM on November 15, 2017 [2 favorites]


GOP leaders weigh drastic plan to save Alabama Senate seat

Republicans do not believe in democracy.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:24 PM on November 15, 2017 [19 favorites]


Charles Manson is on his deathbed apparently. Maybe the 2017 darkest timeline is his fever dream and will fizzle out soon.

Maybe with his work here done, he's preparing to return to his home dimension
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:27 PM on November 15, 2017 [6 favorites]


The Democrat who turned OK-37 blue last night - a district Trump won by 40 - was a 26 year old woman. And a lesbian. Wow.

From the linked Tulsa World article about Allison Ikley-Freeman, the OK state Senator:
The Democrat wins have come since Anna Langthorn became the Oklahoma Democratic Party chairwoman. At 24, Langthorn became the youngest person currently leading a state Democratic Party, and maybe the youngest ever.
Rachel Maddow interviewed Langthorn this evening.
posted by XMLicious at 8:30 PM on November 15, 2017 [30 favorites]


How would Strange resigning his seat help the Republicans with the fact that Moore's on the ballot? Would they get to re-start the existing process as a two-seat election?
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:41 PM on November 15, 2017


I don't how or why, but after those pictures I'm determined that Steve Mnuchin and Louise Linton go to jail.
posted by bongo_x at 8:51 PM on November 15, 2017 [31 favorites]


Would they get to re-start the existing process as a two-seat election?

That is their theory. I believe it is a poor theory.
posted by Justinian at 8:51 PM on November 15, 2017


Can we perhaps keep the Roy Moore stuff in the Roy Moore thread? This may all be an endless omnishambles, but we'll keep our shambleses in their proper places here at MetaFilter.
posted by zachlipton at 8:55 PM on November 15, 2017 [28 favorites]


Ivanka Trump: ‘There’s A Special Place In Hell For People Who Prey On Children’

Oh, like people who ogle 1997 Miss Teen USA contestants while they're changing? Ivanka Trump, who was 15 at the time, co-hosted the pageant.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:13 PM on November 15, 2017 [30 favorites]


I hate Trump even more than the next guy but impeaching him based on the Emoluments Clause is the weakest of weak sauce. Yeah, they got Al Capone on tax fraud but that's not how impeachment should work.

We live in a world where picking & choosing the details of Trump's impeachment based on which charges give us a stronger sense of validation & vindication than others is a luxury we cannot afford. Our sole objective must be to get us across the finish line, to remove him from power. If the weak sauce of emoluments gets us there when treason with Russia would for some reason not, emoluments it is. Not to say that's where we should aim from the get go but if that's how it plays out I'd be satisfied because America would be saved.
posted by scalefree at 9:17 PM on November 15, 2017 [24 favorites]


Corker still waffling on tax bill:
"It's not a good process." "If I feel the growth assumptions are out of line...I'm not going to vote for it. If I believe it's going to add to the deficit, I'm not going to vote for it."
posted by Chrysostom at 10:04 PM on November 15, 2017 [4 favorites]


A federal judge has blocked the federal government’s attempt to withhold law-enforcement money from Philadelphia over its so-called “sanctuary city” status. [Philly Inquirer]
posted by Chrysostom at 10:14 PM on November 15, 2017 [32 favorites]


@LauraLitvan: Sen Dianne Feinstein, top Democrat on Senate Judiciary, has sent letter to WH seeking documents related to Jared Kushner's role in the firings of James Comey and Mike Flynn
posted by Chrysostom at 10:17 PM on November 15, 2017 [42 favorites]


Katie Zavadski, The Daily Beast - Did the Feds Flip Turkish Businessman Reza Zarrab—and Could He Bring Down Michael Flynn?
Reza Zarrab, whose trial for allegedly cheating U.S. sanctions is scheduled to begin in days, was secretly removed from a federal prison and may be working with prosecutors.
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:40 PM on November 15, 2017 [21 favorites]


ELECTIONS NEWS

** 2018 House:
-- Politico: GOP strategists worried that incumbents aren't taking Dem challengers seriously enough.

-- The Hill: Dems feeling increasingly good about chances to retake the House.

-- Nate Silver: Current generic lead for Dems (+11.2) is actually really, really wide in the modern era.

-- DCCC targeted seat lists are out.
-- 2018 Senate:
-- Ratings changes from Sabato: FL (Toss-up), TN (Likely GOP). Also moves the AL special to Leans Dem.

-- OH Predictive Insights poll has Kyrsten Sinema beating Kelli Ward 46-43, Martha McSally 46-45.
** Odds & ends:
-- The New Yorker on the Eric Holder anti-gerrymandering project.

-- Corpus Christi, TX elected a businessman who campaigned on his outsider status as mayor. Things did not go that well.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:52 PM on November 15, 2017 [29 favorites]


"It's not a good process." "If I feel the growth assumptions are out of line...I'm not going to vote for it. If I believe it's going to add to the deficit, I'm not going to vote for it."

Well then why not start legislation to improve the process?
posted by rhizome at 11:05 PM on November 15, 2017


Well...I think he means the bill writing and markup process, which is just controlled by Senate rules/norms, not by legislation.

To be sure, he could make a fuss and say that he wouldn't vote for ANYTHING that didn't go through regular order. On the other hand, if he uses that as a fig leaf to vote against this bill, more power to him.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:08 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


I see, he's referring to the particular contortions required to get this particular thing through.
posted by rhizome at 11:10 PM on November 15, 2017


National Treasure Alexandra Petri spoke at my campus today! She was just as brilliant and hilarious as you'd expect, and in Q&A I asked if she was aware that on this website called Metafilter she is officially known as National Treasure Alexandra Petri. She said "Oh no, I never know if people on the internet are being sarcastic or nice," and I said "They're being nice," and she said "Oh, then in that case, thanks, Metafilter!" So National Treasure Alexandra Petri says thanks, Metafilter!
posted by hoist with his own pet aardvark at 11:18 PM on November 15, 2017 [191 favorites]


Chrysostom, that Corpus Christi article is from January. Am I missing something? (I mean, clearly I missed it in January.)
posted by greermahoney at 11:18 PM on November 15, 2017 [1 favorite]


Do you think fine tuning messaging will do any good, when places like PBS are only airing Republican views on issues?

I think framing (not fine-tuning) issues is the key to modern politics. And that Democrats are fools for not hiring road comics, who 85% of the time sell progressive ideas to drunk small-town audiences, for that purpose. (Memail me).

Also, PBS airing Republican views? You must be thinking of 1970s-80s, Robert Michel-type Republican views. Current Republicans are agonizing over whether pedophilia is reason enough to abandon a candidate.
posted by msalt at 11:32 PM on November 15, 2017 [7 favorites]


@superdeluxe: Here's what @TomiLahren would sound like as an '80s pop hit.

Fantastic.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:33 PM on November 15, 2017 [10 favorites]


Revisiting His major announcement today, i am once again stunned that we have such a perfect moron as our president. He is the ur-idiot, the dimwit-in-chief, the well from which all muttonheads drink, he has become dunce destroyer of words.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:06 AM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


Yes, it’s posted under Odd & ends and I for one, am grateful as I hadn’t seen it!
(Referring to Chrysostom Corpus Christi link)
posted by Wilder at 12:30 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Trump met New Zealand's new Prime Minster. Here's how she describes it, Newroom, Ardern adjusts to life at the top:
“I was waiting to walk out to be introduced at the East Asia Summit gala dinner, where we all paraded and while we were waiting, Trump in jest patted the person next to him on the shoulder, pointed at me and said, ‘This lady caused a lot of upset in her country’, talking about the election.

“I said, ‘Well, you know, only maybe 40 per cent’, then he said it again and I said, ‘You know’, laughing, ‘no-one marched when I was elected’.

“He laughed and it was only afterwards that I reflect that it could have been taken in a very particular way – he did not seem offended.”
posted by zachlipton at 12:42 AM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


Yes, it’s posted under Odd & ends and I for one, am grateful as I hadn’t seen it!
(Referring to Chrysostom Corpus Christi link)

I just assume everything Chrysostom posts is pretty close to daily, so I just didn't know if something more recent had happened. I did see the news that the same former-mayor is going to try to unseat Ted Cruz. That should be fun. I'd like to see him win and quit a Scaramucci or two later.
posted by greermahoney at 12:52 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


I did see the news that the same former-mayor is going to try to unseat Ted Cruz. That should be fun. I'd like to see him win and quit a Scaramucci or two later.

McQueen sounds like a real train wreck, not an improvement in governance. As entertaining as train wrecks can be to watch, much better to elect a true progressive like my man Beto O'Rourke. This quarter he raised more money than Ted without taking a single dime from PACs, an impressive feat anywhere let alone Texas. He's a force to be reckoned with & has a real shot at winning.
posted by scalefree at 1:24 AM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


How Trump walked into Putin’s web. A Long Read by Luke Harding in TheGuardian. Mostly on Christopher Steele & his investigations into the Trump family & their Russian connections.
posted by pharm at 1:33 AM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


“He laughed and it was only afterwards that I reflect that it could have been taken in a very particular way – he did not seem offended.”

Wait, I.. Can someone explain the joke?
posted by tapir-whorf at 3:05 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


All this time I thought it was "National Treasure's Alexandra Petri" and that there was either an American magazine called National Treasure or maybe she was the only survivor from those Nicolas Cage movies.
posted by dng at 3:07 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


I have decided that I do support a special counsel to investigate Hillary Clinton.

To be more specific, it will be a special counsel to investigate calls for a special counsel to investigate Hillary Clinton, but the words do appear in that order.
posted by delfin at 3:34 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


Editor-in-Chief, the Weekly Standard.

@stephenfhayes:
What an embarrassing spectacle the modern Republican Party has become.
posted by chris24 at 3:43 AM on November 16, 2017 [26 favorites]


Steve Mnuchin was photographed along with his wife with the first sheet of dollar bills with his name on it (yeah, we have to deal with that now too), and it's really not a good look, especially the shit-eating grin.

@mattshuham
Gilded Age photo-op aside, Steve Mnuchin has a pitiful signature. Did he know this was going on the money... forever?
PIC

@mattshuham
TOP: Steve Mnuchin's signature
BOTTOM: "Friends" font generator
PIC
posted by chris24 at 4:30 AM on November 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


Mnuchin PRINTS???

Fucking 2017.
posted by mikelieman at 4:41 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


@StevenTDennis (Bloomberg)
Most Senators I talked to yesterday in both parties had no idea CBO said the tax bill would trigger ~$100B/year in automatic entitlement cuts, including $25B from Medicare, because of the Paygo law.

Bloomberg: GOP Tax Plan Puts Lawmakers in Bind Over Medicare Spending Cuts
Senate Republicans may face a political problem in the final push for their tax-cut plan, and they might need Democrats to help fix it.

The Congressional Budget Office says the $1.5 trillion tax-cut proposal would trigger $25 billion in automatic spending cuts next year to Medicare, plus another $111 billion in reductions to other programs, including farm subsidies. That’s because of a law known as Paygo.

While some conservative Republicans would welcome the cuts, moderates in the party are likely to balk -- and President Donald Trump has promised repeatedly not to cut Medicare.

Waiving the automatic cuts could take 60 votes in the Senate, requiring support from at least eight Democrats in a chamber Republicans control 52-48.
posted by chris24 at 4:59 AM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


Mnuchin's expression would be kind of cute, except for the whole fascist agenda thing. Linton's snake-BDSM-Gestapo costume though. I just dunno, man.

Edit: BDSM costume by itself, fine. Where's the *fun*, Louise?!
posted by petebest at 5:04 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Oh, good, I'm not the only one who saw this freaky shit. Yeah, what new gilded age? What oligarchy?

I try really hard not to comment on or police people's clothing, but that outfit is smoking hot - for a goth or bondage club or fetish night.

Seriously, who the fuck wears black leather opera gloves to a US Mint or any government office or facility that isn't having a black tie ball or gala? And, well, even then it's probably pushing sartorial conventions.

Like, how could you put that outfit on to go to the Mint and not think at any point "Wait till they get a load of me!?" like some kind of cheap cartoon villain and not know that people were going to flip the fuck out over that presentation?

2017 IS WEIRD AND BAD.
posted by loquacious at 5:07 AM on November 16, 2017 [52 favorites]


petebest: "Mnuchin's expression would be kind of cute, except for the whole fascist agenda thing. Linton's snake-BDSM-Gestapo costume though. I just dunno, man. "

It looks exactly like the kind of clothing a Saturday-morning-cartoon villain's wife would wear.

Edit: Jinx!
posted by PontifexPrimus at 5:08 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


Why is she even in the picture? Her signature isn't on the bill. Does she follow Steve to all his events to make sure he dare not lay eyes on another blonde?
posted by PenDevil at 5:10 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


I mean, yeah, I'm a fashion sensation myself, of course, but - isn't there some sort of subset corollary that the belt buckle shouldn't be bigger than one's head?
posted by petebest at 5:15 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


They need 60 votes?

HA HA YOU FUCKERS TASTE YOUR DELICIOUS FAILURE YOU'RE GOING TO FUCKING FAIL AGAIN

[does the warding-off-jinx thing]
posted by angrycat at 5:17 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


I hate Trump even more than the next guy but impeaching him based on the Emoluments Clause is the weakest of weak sauce. Yeah, they got Al Capone on tax fraud but that's not how impeachment should work.

If the weak sauce of emoluments gets us there when treason with Russia would for some reason not, emoluments it is.

a) Count me in the camp that openly bribing the President on a daily basis is actually a pretty fucking big deal and
b) They impeached Clinton over a consensual blow job.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:19 AM on November 16, 2017 [71 favorites]


Most Senators I talked to yesterday in both parties had no idea CBO said the tax bill would trigger ~$100B/year in automatic entitlement cuts, including $25B from Medicare, because of the Paygo law.

All else aside, we need better Senators. Why do they not know this? I know this, and I am not paid to pay attention to legislation all day. This is a hugely important, nationally unpopular bill - anyone who is paying attention to the news knows about the automatic cuts. Why don't professional legislators?
posted by Frowner at 5:23 AM on November 16, 2017 [38 favorites]


The oligarchy again derailed and distracted successfully.
posted by runcifex at 5:23 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


b) They impeached Clinton over a consensual blow job.

Well, actually, as you know it was for lying. So. Trump.

Because we're not monsters like them, we'll spray-paint the trebuchet gold. And put, like, classy shit on it.
posted by petebest at 5:24 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Also, the problem with the goth opera gloves outfit and the "lookit me and the money" photo is that they display an utter disinterest in what is seemly in government. Take a goofy photo - for your family and friends. Dress like the cover of a mid-aughts urban fantasy novel - but not at a state occasion. These people, unlike, eg, the heroes at the USDA, are not at all interested in being public figures and representing more than themselves. When you are in government, you represent the nation, so you should try not to look like a corrupt buffoon. There are all kinds of philosophical problems with representation in government, but attacking those problems from the position of the selfish, ignorant right isn't going to help.
posted by Frowner at 5:27 AM on November 16, 2017 [31 favorites]


The oligarchy again derailed and distracted successfully.

The first thing I asked myself when I saw this kerfluffle is what crazy shit are they trying to distract people from today? Where's the real story?

I mean, besides all of the rest of them.
posted by loquacious at 5:30 AM on November 16, 2017


WaPo story on tweet linked above, Ban on Elephant body parts from Zimbabwe reversed by Trump because he's seriously fucking evil

(I may have taken liberties with the title)
posted by petebest at 5:30 AM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]


I propose that Metafilter votes for and presents an annual Anne Richards Memorial (Not Being Sarcastic) National Treasure Award.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:38 AM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


If, like me, you live in a red state with a lot of farmers and old people, I highly recommend that you call up your senators' offices and read them this paragraph of the Bloomberg article:
The Congressional Budget Office says the $1.5 trillion tax-cut proposal would trigger $25 billion in automatic spending cuts next year to Medicare, plus another $111 billion in reductions to other programs, including farm subsidies. That’s because of a law known as Paygo.
Then ask them why they're going to hurt farmers and senior citizens to pay for tax cuts for the richest of the rich.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:44 AM on November 16, 2017 [34 favorites]


"Wait till they get a load of me!?" like some kind of cheap cartoon villain

This thread is great. It goes through and matches every Trump & Co. villain with their Bond doppelgänger. With pix.

@KevinMKruse
It's like this entire administration is made up of James Bond villains. PIX
- All right, let's break this down.
- Secretary of State Rex Tillerson is Karl Stromberg. PIX
- Secretary of the Treasury Steve Mnuchin is Dr. No. PIX
etc.
etc.
posted by chris24 at 5:45 AM on November 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


So many of these people have fascinating/bewildering Wikipedia entries.

So she married that dude this year. He's two decades older than she is. She came from a wealthy family and is herself well-educated, has a law degree, is an actress, and once posed for...Maxim? I'm not saying any of these things are wrong or weird on their own, but against that image of her with her in that outfit glowering at the camera as she holds sheets of...money....is just....I give up. I don't even know.

And this guy is a real prize.

Also, that Guardian article linked up thread is hair-raising. It doesn't reveal a lot that isn't known, but seeing it all together in narrative form coupled with the Wikipedia entries of these comic book villains makes me feel like I need to start drinking before 9 AM.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:49 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


Seriously, who the fuck wears black leather opera gloves to a US Mint

I hope you're not suggesting Louise Linton would touch one-dollar bills with her bare hands. Like a peasant.

Meanwhile, Crain's NY Business delivers today's schadenfreude: The Trump Organization Sees Fortunes Fall "In addition [to losses at their hotels, golf courses, and condos], the Trump Organization, a perennial leader on the Crain’s list of largest privately held companies, has fallen steeply in the rankings, to No. 40 from No. 3 last year, following the president’s disclosures to federal regulators that revealed the organization’s revenue is less than a 10th of what the firm had reported since at least 2010." {emphases for the warm, fuzzy feeling}
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:52 AM on November 16, 2017 [46 favorites]


I guess part of it is that I look at that Wikipedia entry of hers and it's hard to imagine how she wound up married to the US treasury secretary having her picture taken holding up sheets of money in the US Mint, looking like a cartoon villain next to a guy who looks like the character first to die when the main villain feels cornered and starts killing his own crew.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


This is basically what I imagine every meeting between a cabinet member and Trump looks like.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


ok seriously is that 60-vote thing legit? Because if so, can we start dancing now?
posted by angrycat at 5:58 AM on November 16, 2017


From Mnuchin's Wikipedia: The following year, he established the company SFM Capital Management together with financier George Soros.

Dear right wing crank conspiracy theorists, the calls are coming from inside the house!!!
posted by PenDevil at 6:01 AM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


It's like this entire administration is made up of James Bond villains. PIX

Laughed out loud sitting on the P2 bus just now. The worst thing is that they'd probably see the comparison as a compliment.
posted by octothorpe at 6:02 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Their immediate priority after tax cuts is spending reform. Don’t think for one second they don’t know what they’re doing.

“We don’t have the money! If we don’t cut X then Medicare is going to get cut. Do you hate seniors, Democrats? It sure looks like it!”
posted by zrail at 6:03 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Well, if unnecessary military spending helps us debate the bill...

WaPo: Former Pentagon chiefs to Congress: If you’re serious about defense, don’t pass current GOP tax bill
Three former secretaries of defense are warning lawmakers not to enact proposed Republican tax restructuring plans, arguing they will jeopardize future military spending.

Former defense secretaries Leon E. Panetta, Chuck Hagel and Ash Carter told senior congressional leaders in a letter Wednesday that because the tax plan is expected to increase the debt, passing it will probably mean future cuts to Pentagon budgets “for training, maintenance, force structure, flight missions, procurement and other key programs.”

“The result is the growing danger of a ‘hollowed out’ military force that lacks the ability to sustain the intensive deployment requirements of our global defense mission,” the secretaries wrote. They cited two recent accidents involving U.S. Navy destroyers that led to the deaths of 17 sailors as evidence that cuts in military spending can lead to a “lack of adequate training.”

The trio blasts “a broken budget process in Congress” for leaving the Pentagon with “a lack of certainty as to what budget resources will be provided for defense and other national security requirements in the next year.”
posted by chris24 at 6:05 AM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


Here's my tax plan strategy which will save Republicans tens of thousands of dollars.
1. No tax plan.
2. Don't send those ten thousand dollar checks to Republican campaigns.
3. Profit.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:12 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


Steve Mnuchin was photographed along with his wife with the first sheet of dollar bills with his name on it (yeah, we have to deal with that now too), and it's really not a good look, especially the shit-eating grin.

I checked and I couldn't find pictures of Tim Gainther posing with sheets of money. Is my Google skill failing me, or is the whole posing with sheets of money thing really unique to Mnuchin?
posted by sotonohito at 6:18 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


ok seriously is that 60-vote thing legit? Because if so, can we start dancing now?

No, they need 60 votes to avoid automatic cuts to Medicare if this passes, not to pass it. But they will probably pass it anyway and then eithervblam Democrats for the Medicare cuts, or try to cut other spending (and then blame Democrats if they can't and Medicare gets cut instead.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:23 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


Passage without cutting Medicare would be an easier sell, but if you really think that anyone in the Senate views Paygo as a showstopper I have a very nice bridge for sale.

They were going to have to threaten moderates with both barrels anyway. This cut is just one more thing moderates will be ordered to accept in the name of Tax Cuts Must Flow. It's a blip compared to the evil shit already in the proposals.
posted by delfin at 6:24 AM on November 16, 2017


"Then ask them why they're going to hurt farmers and senior citizens to pay for tax cuts for the richest of the rich."

why they want to hurt real heartland American farmers and senior citizens to pay for tax cuts for the richest of the rich ... in New York City and San Francisco.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:39 AM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


I think this is really, really where red state people have to call their senators. This is a very bad bill - it's bad for the GOP, it's going to be a disaster for individual Senators and I am sure that many of them know this. They're setting themselves up for disaster in 2018 and 2020, and while some of them basically don't care and are just planning on wingnut welfare for the rest of their lives, some of them still hope for political careers.

This tax bill could de facto die in conference, or be so radically reshaped as to be merely bad and not disastrous. That's what we have to work on.
posted by Frowner at 6:44 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


You know, I'm not sure if that is Mnuchin's signature all the time or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if he intentionally chose to print his signature and ensure it is legible as his name because he is vain and wants to make sure everyone knows it's him on the money.
posted by lazaruslong at 7:07 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


But if it's not his actual signature, is it legal tender?
posted by mikelieman at 7:13 AM on November 16, 2017


Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny About It
posted by guiseroom at 7:15 AM on November 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


Taxpayers pay legal bill to protect Trump business profits
Taxpayers are footing the legal bill for at least 10 Justice Department lawyers and paralegals to work on lawsuits related to President Trump's private businesses.

Neither the White House nor the Justice Department will say how much it is costing taxpayers, but federal payroll records show the salaries of the government lawyers assigned to the cases range from about $133,000 to $185,000.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny About It

Dear god. The story is bad enough, but that picture is APPALLING.
posted by marshmallow peep at 7:20 AM on November 16, 2017 [50 favorites]


Goddammit, I did not want Al Franken to be a milkshake duck.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:21 AM on November 16, 2017 [75 favorites]


A person that had no business doing a thing in a place had their picture taken in that place doing that thing and it was published. How's that?
posted by achrise at 7:22 AM on November 16, 2017


But if it's not his actual signature, is it legal tender?

The "Paul J Fes" dollars spend just fine.
posted by peeedro at 7:22 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


I was very much hoping for a Franken 2020 candidacy. Was.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:22 AM on November 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


I checked and I couldn't find pictures of Tim Gainther posing with sheets of money. Is my Google skill failing me, or is the whole posing with sheets of money thing really unique to Mnuchin?

There's a very old proto-daguerreotype of Adam Weishaupt throwing up a shocker in front of the first printing of The Great Seal but you have to be a third level initiate before they even let you see it.
posted by cortex at 7:23 AM on November 16, 2017 [25 favorites]


I nearly wrote a nice story about Franken, whom I met briefly several years ago, in the "What celebrities have done nice things?" thread. Welp.
posted by emjaybee at 7:24 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


Goddamnit Al Franken. Seriously, we can't get anything nice. I don't even want to know who on our side is next.
posted by andruwjones26 at 7:26 AM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


Goddamnit, Al.

I suppose there's no point in decrying the "see, both sides do it" shrieks to come when, well, both sides do it.
posted by delfin at 7:29 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


I was wondering who was gonna break my heart. DAMMIT, Al Franken.
posted by thebrokedown at 7:29 AM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


Sigh. Welp. Fuck Al Franken. Into the wicker man with him.
posted by lazaruslong at 7:30 AM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


Answering the question you're all wondering: Minnesota replaces senators by gubernatorial appointment.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:32 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


This is something that's going to define 2017/18. How do we deal with this. The world USED TO BE one where now-intolerable-behavior was tolerated. It's trying to be one where it's intolerable.

I *want* it to be a world where that behavior is not tolerated.

So, do we draw a line like where Michael Jackson went crazy during the Bad tour? Pre-Bad is not bad, Bad is iffy, depending, and Post-Bad is not good?

Do we consider the balance of their life? Did they do enough good to "convince St. Peter you have been contrite and repentant" -- so to speak?

Is the slate wiped clean after Yom Kippur?

I DO NOT KNOW. To retain my dwindling sanity, I'm going to have to figure it out. We all will. It's going to be painful, but when we come out the other side, we'll be better.
posted by mikelieman at 7:35 AM on November 16, 2017 [19 favorites]


There are plenty of other intelligent and capable progressives out in the sea who haven't assaulted women. Minnesota will just have to find one of them.
posted by Room 101 at 7:35 AM on November 16, 2017 [23 favorites]


From the description of what Franken did on the trip I actually wouldn't be all that surprised if this is the only accusation that comes to light. I won't be surprised if it comes out that he's a lecherous creep either.

I think it will come down to how Franken reacts and if anything else comes to light. If it turns out this is the shittiest thing he's ever done and makes a good faith effort to atone, I think I might be okay with him staying where he is. I might even vote for him again but we'll see what happens next.
posted by VTX at 7:37 AM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


> I suppose there's no point in decrying the "see, both sides do it" shrieks to come when, well, both sides do it.

Well, sure, but not only are there far more of them on the right, but we don't tend to circle the wagons for ours the way the right does. Franken has gone from one of my favorite Senators to someone that I hope is begging to get a ten minute set at a dingy comedy club next week, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. I fully expect Franken's Democratic colleagues to wish him well in his future endeavors.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:38 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


I don't want to be all like `it could never be Al Franken`, but I will withhold judgment for at least a bit ( maybe a couple of hours?). There was an article earlier about Breitbart types planning on manufacturing accusations towards the left regarding sexual assault, and if they were going to do something like that I could seem them starting it like this.
posted by localhuman at 7:39 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Al Franken now

God. Fucking. DAMNIT.
posted by instead of three wishes at 7:40 AM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


From the description of what Franken did on the trip I actually wouldn't be all that surprised if this is the only accusation that comes to light.

But note:
A few weeks ago, we had California Congresswoman Jackie Speier on the show and she told us her story of being sexually assaulted when she was a young Congressional aide. She described how a powerful man in the office where she worked ‘held her face, kissed her and stuck his tongue in her mouth.’

At that moment, I thought to myself, Al Franken did that exact same thing to me.
It sure sounds like Franken assaulted at least one of his aides, not just a fellow comedian.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:41 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Goddamit Al Franken.
posted by notyou at 7:42 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


When you're as invested in fighting the good fight as so many of us here are, it can take an extreme amount of effort to remove the partisan lens. That picture is pretty damning. This shouldn't be a political issue, and if we're going to survive these polarizing times, we have to remove the plank from our own eye.
posted by mcdoublewide at 7:44 AM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


In any case, that's an actual photo of an actual person - unless it's faked and/or the actual person, who is apparently a broadcaster, is lying, it's difficult to see how this couldn't be true. In theory she could be some kind of far-right mole, but seriously? What's easier to believe, that this entirely plausible and consistent kind of sexual harassment thing happened and was photographs, or that she is some alt-right agent in deep cover?
posted by Frowner at 7:45 AM on November 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


When you're as invested in fighting the good fight as so many of us here are, it pays to remember that the cemeteries are filled with indispensible men.
posted by ocschwar at 7:45 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


I don't want to be all like `it could never be Al Franken`, but I will withhold judgment for at least a bit ( maybe a couple of hours?).

There is a photograph of him groping a sleeping woman. I loaded it into photoshop and swept through different spatial frequency ranges, looking for the inconsistencies in jpg artifacts that can arise when a photograph is doctored. I didn't see any. If this photograph is doctored, it was done very carefully. But more than likely, she's telling the truth, the photo is real, and Al Franken is an asshole.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:46 AM on November 16, 2017 [37 favorites]


I'm interested to see if the photographer comes forward.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


A reminder - if we needed one - that this issue is not of the right or of the left, but of the age old poison of misogyny which blights us
posted by Myeral at 7:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [51 favorites]


president elizabeth warren.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


Well fuck him then. I'll always be open to new information changing my mind and that's always true for everyone accused of anything but until that happens, fuck him.
posted by VTX at 7:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Sorry Al Franken, but we have to nuke you from orbit.
posted by condour75 at 7:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


It sure sounds like Franken assaulted at least one of his aides, not just a fellow comedian.

Wait, what? The person who assaulted Jackie Speier was Leo Ryan, and this happened decades ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/california-congresswoman-alleges-sexual-harassment-capitol-hill/story?id=50757857
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 7:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


A few weeks ago, we had California Congresswoman Jackie Speier on the show and she told us her story of being sexually assaulted when she was a young Congressional aide. She described how a powerful man in the office where she worked ‘held her face, kissed her and stuck his tongue in her mouth.’

At that moment, I thought to myself, Al Franken did that exact same thing to me.
It sure sounds like Franken assaulted at least one of his aides, not just a fellow comedian.

Speer is 67 and her time as an aide would have been during or even before Franken was on SNL
posted by phearlez at 7:48 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Guys. Guys. Real talk here. I'm male. I'm attracted to women.
I never groped one, kissed one without consent, forced myself on her, rubbed against her, or raped her. I'VE NOT DONE ALL THOSE THINGS ALL MY LIFE!!!
Is it really that fucking hard for others to be a decent human being?

I swear, if the solution we as humans come up with is to lock up all men preventatively and only let us out with boxing gloves, Hannibal Lecter masks and chastity belts locked to our person I would be fine with that.

Gods, I can't believe it...

Edit: clarification of ambiguous phrase
posted by PontifexPrimus at 7:48 AM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


President Amy Klobuchar
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:49 AM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


Thanks for the corrections re Speier.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:50 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'm not only disappointed in the action but also that he would be stupid enough to pose for the photo. I expect more intelligence from a US Senator.
posted by Mitheral at 7:50 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


It sure sounds like Franken assaulted at least one of his aides, not just a fellow comedian.

Speier never worked for Franken. She was an aide in the 70s and 80s for Leo Ryan, who was killed at Jonestown. She then served in the CA state assembly, and was elected to Congress herself in 2008.
posted by anastasiav at 7:50 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


The patriarchy hurts us all.
posted by longtime_lurker at 7:51 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooogoddammit.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:51 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Franken's only proper response is that "I was a sexist asshole."
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:52 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


@AdamSerwer:
So if franken goes...is ellison his replacement?
posted by chris24 at 7:52 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


YO, if you RTF Speier article she calles the assailant out by name
Speier confirmed to ABC News that the man the allegation was directed at was Joe Holsinger, the chief of staff for former Rep. Leo Ryan, D-Calif. Holsinger was around 50 at the time of the incident, Speier said, and she was in her mid-20s. Holsinger died in 2004.

posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


This shouldn't be a political issue, and if we're going to survive these polarizing times, we have to remove the plank from our own eye.

Honestly the party should walk the walk and do some thorough and radical house cleaning. Hire private investigators, set up an in house anonymous reporting system, don't pal around with Bill or any other former politicians who did this stuff anymore, show they're doing the work.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


Sorry, Speier was not assaulted by Leo Ryan, but by his Chief of Staff, Joe Holsinger.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 7:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Well, fuck Sen. Franken then. We've got until 2020 to find a suitable replacement and primary him right out of the Senate.

BURN THEM TO THE GROUND. It doesn't matter if its "our" side, we vote them out. If we can't primary Franken, or shame him into not running again, then we fucking vote for whatever Republican fuckwit they put up against Franken, because we are goddamn better than the Republicans and we will not vote for and elect sexual predators.
posted by sotonohito at 7:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [24 favorites]


As Senator, Al Franken started a friendly little annual hot dish contest amongst Minnesota's congressional delegation. The next one will be very interesting.

Looking around local media to see who's running with the story first.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:58 AM on November 16, 2017


We don't have to vote for a Republican, let's not get crazy here. Maybe the DSA can field someone.
posted by asteria at 7:59 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


It occurs to me that if we can clean house of sexual predators, we will get what we - at least Democrats - want, which is more women in office. So much ink and pixels have been spilled on why representation of women in office is so low. I believe that widespread and pervasive sexual harassment has a lot to do with it. Most women are not going to volunteer to go to a workplace where they know they will face all kinds of harassment. (And for those running for office I am sure the whisper network kicks in, at least for many.)

If we can sweep the sexual predators - or at least most of them - away, I bet we'll get more women (and more LGBT folks as well) in office. Win-win.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:00 AM on November 16, 2017 [77 favorites]


Franken should resign and Dayton should appoint Rep. Betty McCollum to fill the seat.

“ ‘What the hell are you doing? Go away!’ ” McCollum said Wednesday, describing an encounter years earlier with a former colleague who moved in for an unsolicited hug in the House cloakroom. She said she batted at the advancing congressman with a newspaper as other colleagues looked on and snickered.
posted by EarBucket at 8:01 AM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


The only solution here is to prevent men from voting or running for office /s Doesn't matter what their political stripe is; evidently none of them are able to control their hands from doing gross shit. Anthony Weiner couldn't help it, either.
posted by Donald Trump Sex Nightmare at 8:02 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


Even if the kissing-assault account weren't true, and even if one doesn't consider the photo to constitute assault, it demonstrates terrible judgment on Franken's part.

Like, I am a guy who expends a lot thought ruminating over and examining my past behavior from younger days: how appropriate was this, how gross was that. Even as a 20 year old internalized-toxic-masculinity jerk, I would have never thought to pose in a photo looking like I'm about to assault a sleeping woman. That would have clearly been a bad idea for me then, and I wasn't decades older and with immediate political aspirations.

The decision to take that photo alone should be disqualifying for local political office, much less Senate or President.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:03 AM on November 16, 2017 [23 favorites]


> posted by Donald Trump Sex Nightmare

God damn it, 2017, you've even taken the "sterical" out of "eponysterical."
posted by tonycpsu at 8:03 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


There is a photograph of him groping a sleeping woman. I loaded it into photoshop and swept through different spatial frequency ranges, looking for the inconsistencies in jpg artifacts that can arise when a photograph is doctored. I didn't see any. If this photograph is doctored, it was done very carefully. But more than likely, she's telling the truth, the photo is real, and Al Franken is an asshole.

Yeah, the best possible interpretation of that photo is that he's just ("just") got his hands in front of her making it look like he's groping her and he's not actually touching her. So maybe you get to think it's not assault and is instead just 99 other kinds of awful. *sigh* Gross.

I can't claim that twenty-plus years ago when I was in my twenties I wouldn't have thought it was funny to pose for a photo so it looked like I was grabbing a boob or something. I can't imagine doing that with a sleeping person but who knows, I look back on my younger self and cringe over a lot of things; perhaps I would have thought that was okiedokie then. But ten years ago Franken was in his mid-fifties for fuck's sake.
posted by phearlez at 8:03 AM on November 16, 2017 [19 favorites]


This Al Franken thing reminds me of the early days of this administration when I would lie in bed every morning listlessly reading Metafilter until I finally came across something that propelled me out of bed with rage. Fuck Al Franken, and fuck anyone who's going to use this as "both sides" fodder - not because Al Franken is not a GODDAMN HYPOCRITE who deserves everything he gets and brings shame to the Democrats, but because I am TIRED of seeing this shit thrown around by people who don't give a SHIT about women.

It occurs to me that if we can clean house of sexual predators, we will get what we - at least Democrats - want, which is more women in office.

I would like to +1 this instead of going forward with the unhinged (yet, really, totally justified) rant I had planned about how men have had their chance and are now banned from political office because just like everyone accused me of during the election, I really WOULD rather have a Lisa Murkowski than an Al Franken and I don't give a damn who knows.
posted by sunset in snow country at 8:04 AM on November 16, 2017 [19 favorites]


Fucking furious. I know he wasn't a senator yet, but how you can pull this shit on camera when you have even ambitions to national politics is....ugh. He's gotta go, and just as a strategic matter the party has to come down like a hammer to have any chance of keeping a high ground in Alabama.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:04 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


It occurs to me that if we can clean house of sexual predators, we will get what we - at least Democrats - want, which is more women in office.

I’m kind of leaning towards “Nominate only women: it’s the only way to be sure.”
posted by corb at 8:04 AM on November 16, 2017 [39 favorites]


@MichaelSLinden:
HOLY CRAP.

New JCT (CBO for tax) tables are out for the Senate's new version. And they are TERRIBLE.

On average, everyone under $75,000 gets a tax INCREASE. <---- Read that last sentence again.
posted by chris24 at 8:06 AM on November 16, 2017 [76 favorites]


Could we please not veer into "all men are bad" territory? Thanks.
posted by Melismata at 8:06 AM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


Fucking furious. I know he wasn't a senator yet, but how you can pull this shit on camera when you have even ambitions to national politics is....ugh.

At the time he was an Air America radio host, but yeah, he had ambitions for a while.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:06 AM on November 16, 2017


Franken's response:

“I certainly don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit in the same way, but I send my sincerest apologies to Leeann. As to the photo, it was clearly intended to be funny but wasn't. I shouldn't have done it.”

Goodnight, Al.
posted by delfin at 8:06 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


Man here, I'm okay with it.
posted by EarBucket at 8:07 AM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]


Man, he should have thought long and hard before releasing that weak-sauce statement. When that's the best you can do as an official statement, you're just dead to me.
posted by mynameisluka at 8:08 AM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


Haha. I was definitely taking this with a massive grain of salt until that shitty apology. Oh bye bye Franken.
posted by Yowser at 8:10 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


It is going to be very hard to get any work done today, what with all the flames on the side of my face.
posted by marshmallow peep at 8:11 AM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


You see, evopsych explains that men have terrible memories because in mammoth hunts we
posted by Drastic at 8:11 AM on November 16, 2017 [62 favorites]


From a purely strategic viewpoint, Democrats have to choose a woman to run for the presidency. The probability that whatever man they would chose has committed sexual assault is too high to be worth the risk.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:12 AM on November 16, 2017 [29 favorites]


So, how is everyone else dealing with the cognitive dissonance of all these sexual predators coming to light, being shamed and disowned and stripped of their careers, while at the same time THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS DONALD TRUMP who is well known for this exact predatory behavior and has been accused of it and admitted it on record and and and ARGH

Personally, I've been headbutting my cabinet doors, right on the pointy parts. It doesn't help for long, but it provides some temporary distraction.
posted by MrVisible at 8:12 AM on November 16, 2017 [75 favorites]


Franken's response:

“I certainly don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit in the same way, but I send my sincerest apologies to Leeann. As to the photo, it was clearly intended to be funny but wasn't. I shouldn't have done it.”

Given her account, there is zero chance she's the only one who's had this sort of experience with Franken. Whether others speak up or not, who knows, but she is not alone. No way.

And there is zero chance Franken hasn't been thinking about this shit ever since the news about Weinstein broke.

Dudes like Weinstein aren't really the test of anything. He didn't have tons of real friends. He's not widely loved or appreciated. The test is gonna be when we discover this shit about people we like and appreciate, because it's gonna be about some of them, too.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:12 AM on November 16, 2017 [56 favorites]


Amazing with all the Weinstein warning he didn’t have a better response than that. I guess there’s really no good answer for it. He’s toast and deservedly.
posted by chris24 at 8:14 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Here's the DNC contact form anyone would like to join me in suggesting to them that they drop support for Franken and call for his resignation.
posted by contraption at 8:14 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


From a purely strategic viewpoint, Democrats have to choose a woman to run for the presidency. The probability that whatever man they would chose has committed sexual assault is too high to be worth the risk.

After seeing what our entire country did to a black man, I'm a bit worried about what would happen if a woman were elected. You do realize that if Hilary had been elected, the GOP would be continuing their relentless obstructionism and probably making it worse, right?
posted by Melismata at 8:15 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


The test is gonna be when we discover this shit about people we like and appreciate, because it's gonna be about some of them, too.

This. Predators are often very socially-savvy, and they know when to push and when to back off, and they feel out the people around them to know if this is an environment where they can get away with something (or not). Which is how you end up with so many people saying, "I never knew he was like that!" because the He in question hid this behavior from his more ethical pals.
posted by suelac at 8:15 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


So, how is everyone else dealing with the cognitive dissonance of all these sexual predators coming to light

Stress eating. I'm going all Ms Pac Man on my fridge.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:16 AM on November 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


ok no longer withholding judgement. he should resign. pronto.
posted by localhuman at 8:17 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


FYI, Franken's term is up in 2020.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:17 AM on November 16, 2017


Could we please not veer into "all men are bad" territory? Thanks.

Some, I assume, are good people. But they're clearly not sending their best.
posted by asteria at 8:18 AM on November 16, 2017 [95 favorites]


Governor appoints a successor, special election held November 2018 with the regular midterms.
posted by chris24 at 8:19 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


I'm less concerned with what Franken does from here on out, because fuck that guy, than I am with how party leadership handles this. I'm very worried it will be some weak waffling at best instead of making Franken persona non grata like it should be.

Also really hoping Beauregard keeps his mouth shut on this but I'm fully expecting some awful elfin smugness after Franken went after him so much. Fuckin thanks in advance for that too, Franken.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:19 AM on November 16, 2017 [32 favorites]


So, how is everyone else dealing with the cognitive dissonance of all these sexual predators coming to light

I'm loudly advocating for human bonfires myself.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:20 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


> I'm very worried it will be some weak waffling at best instead of making Franken persona non grata like it should be.

Yeah, weak waffling is the Democratic party's go-to move. I think it's written in Latin on their official seal.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:20 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Hi, there have been a couple of comments where penises or testicles are equated with being a man, friendly reminder that not all people with dicks/balls are men, and you can talk shit about dudes without throwing trans women under the bus.
posted by ITheCosmos at 8:20 AM on November 16, 2017 [45 favorites]


Here's what I just wrote to the DNC:
Al Franken must resign, and the DNC should be applying pressure to make sure that happens. In today's climate there can be no tolerance for sexual harassment or assault by our representatives, and the Democrats should be leading the charge to make sure that's the case because we know for certain that no party led by Donald Trump will ever do so. In Franken's case, the fact that there is (excuse me for yelling) PHOTOGRAPHIC GODDAMNED EVIDENCE makes it crystal clear that no waffling apology or "I don't recall" dodge will be enough. Sen. Franken must step down and allow Gov. Dayton to appoint an interim replacement. I've heard good things about this Ellison fellow!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:22 AM on November 16, 2017 [26 favorites]


I oddly don't see it (DT in the White House vs all the allegations coming out) as something requiring cognitive dissonance. Trump's election mobilized women like nothing before. Now we're seeing sexual harassment cases come to light. I am still full of RAGE but the upside is that it's out there, it's being exposed, case after case that was already happening, just hidden.

I know events of the last few years have left us all feeling too bruised to really say this seriously, but dare I say it? It feels like we're making progress. Ugly as it is.
posted by sunset in snow country at 8:22 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


Even if he's "groping", it's gross.
posted by Pendragon at 8:23 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


@Shakestweetz:
Unacceptable response. "Clearly intended to be funny." Including an argument that sexual assault could ever be "funny" is fairly damning.
posted by chris24 at 8:24 AM on November 16, 2017 [25 favorites]


Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny About It

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)

ಠ益ಠ
posted by Fizz at 8:28 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


Look, a "joke" groping while someone is asleep, immortalized on film - that's certainly as bad as a "sincere" grope, because the whole point of it is "lol you think you are in control of who touches you, but you're just a woman, everyone knows women are public property, get back in your place". It's a really, really ugly thing to do. If you are a man who thinks it's funny, then you think a really, really ugly thing is funny and you should get wise to yourself. It's sexual humiliation recorded for posterity.

Grabbing a woman sexually in front of others is a way of humiliating and diminishing her. I have observed both youth and adults to do this to women (and AFAB people) for precisely this reason.

It is super gross. If Franken wants to apologize sincerely and then do something - public service, substantial financial donation to women's groups, etc and is open about why what he did was terrible, and if no further allegations surface, I might be willing to accept that it was a grave error in judgment that he would not make today. But it is super gross and socially violent and sinks him pretty much to the bottom of my estimation.
posted by Frowner at 8:30 AM on November 16, 2017 [99 favorites]


I feel like I go through some weird version of the stages of grief when I hear that a man I've admired has acted like this. I'm a woman, I've been groped and harassed and yet I still find my brain thinking things like "maybe it's not true" (denial), "maybe if he spent the rest of his term doing really pro-woman things" (bargaining), etc.

I think I just need to let myself quietly cycle through the stages while at the same time BELIEVING WOMEN.
posted by mcduff at 8:31 AM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]


Basically summing up my feelings about Al Franken right now.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:31 AM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


I'm 2/3 of the way through reading Franken's new book and now I'm going back to the chapter with the Lesley Stahl rape joke defense again. It's mostly about how he carefully worded an apology. Ugh god, this morning.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:31 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


This is the first time it's been somebody I actually admired rather than just someone whose work I enjoyed. (Okay, technically Franken's political accomplishments are work, but it's all tied together in politics. You get what I mean.) Hoo boy, it's no fun.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:32 AM on November 16, 2017 [23 favorites]


And I realize it's now about a pivot, which is something else he talks about in the book. A skill he learned. So instead of really focusing on how gross it was to make a rape joke about Lesley Stahl, we spend the rest of the chapter hanging on the franticness of emailing your aides back and forth over wording pedantry. I've been had. It's actually a pretty masterful use of pivoting.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:33 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


Cleansing Fire 2020: Death by Fire is the Purest Death!
posted by asteria at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


PiaGlenn:

"when these men say 'I don't remember... [sexually assaulting her],' I believe them

and I wish they had the introspection to connect the fact that they don't remember to the fact that they *wouldn't* remember because it's so commonplace"
posted by solotoro at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2017 [43 favorites]


(╯°□°)╯︵ uǝʞuɐɹℲ
posted by Fleebnork at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2017 [42 favorites]


I took a sick day today. I've never had a job that has given me that opportunity and I was feeling like I needed a mental health day. Then I loaded up twitter/metafilter to find this shit about Al Franken. Fuck.

I'll be mostly drinking coffee and playing Stardew Valley and/or napping. Because it's important to remember that there are good things in this life and that it's ok to take time for yourself and practice self-care. Hugs to everyone.
posted by Fizz at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


There is a photograph of him groping a sleeping woman.

All the rest may be true, but in that photo he doesn't appear to be touching her; he's hover handing. That's why there's a shadow between his hand and her flak jacket.

That's tacky and tasteless, but not groping.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:35 AM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


Basically summing up my feelings about Al Franken right now.

Like sand, Patriarchy gets everywhere.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:35 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


AL NO

I WOULD HAVE WORKED FOR YOU

I feel weirdly betrayed and also gross
posted by dogheart at 8:36 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


solotoro Exactly. It's a for me it was Tuesday moment. It means that sexual assault, for them, is such an everyday thing that they can't even remember any specific incident.
posted by sotonohito at 8:36 AM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


I used to grieve over things like this, too, but now I just move straight to anger, and the increasingly common belief that there are thousands of talented people (male and female) who DON'T do this shit, and we need to boot the old ones to make room for them.

That it is not, in fact, a huge loss to get rid of the CKs and the Frankens and the Bill Clintons of the world. Their talents are not so incredibly unique that we can't find someone else to do that work, someone who doesn't act like a total shitbag to others. We just need to make room and make an effort to promote talented, non-shitbag people.

I'm done with this shit, in other words. Time to boot the assholes, every one of 'em.
posted by emjaybee at 8:37 AM on November 16, 2017 [34 favorites]


All the rest may be true, but in that photo he doesn't appear to be touching her; he's hover handing.

Oh can we not
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:37 AM on November 16, 2017 [72 favorites]


first: al franken can fuck off

second: this is just another way that patriarchy works - it tries to convince every man that sexual abuse is just boys being boys so that every man is implicated, so when a man sees sexual abuse happening he'll be afraid to speak up lest his own "indiscretions" be exposed. it's the same deal as a gang making you commit a felony as an initiation.

and that's why we have to have zero tolerance, even when the accused is someone we like. it can never be "just joking around" because "just joking around" is an insurance policy for 100 worse things.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:37 AM on November 16, 2017 [55 favorites]


"when these men say 'I don't remember... [sexually assaulting her],' I believe them

It's the Raul Julia "but for me, it was Tuesday" line from Street Fighter, but completely un-self-aware.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:37 AM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


There is a photograph of him groping a sleeping woman.
All the rest may be true, but in that photo he doesn't appear to be touching her; he's hover handing. That's why there's a shadow between his hand and her flak jacket.

That's tacky and tasteless, but not groping.

It's still demeaning.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:38 AM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


Today will be the day when millions of grown-ass men are told why it's not cool to take demeaning pictures without someone's consent.
posted by Donald Trump Sex Nightmare at 8:40 AM on November 16, 2017 [52 favorites]


I think Trump rescinded the ban on elephant parts being imported because he wanted to try and shed the title of biggest ass in America.
posted by srboisvert at 8:40 AM on November 16, 2017


Dudes like Weinstein aren't really the test of anything. He didn't have tons of real friends. He's not widely loved or appreciated. The test is gonna be when we discover this shit about people we like and appreciate, because it's gonna be about some of them, too.

I am certainly not saying he is this kind of person, but I've found myself preparing in the back of my mind for the possibility that Jon Stewart has some skeletons like this... comedian who came up with plenty of problematic colleagues, the sexism problems that came up from Daily Show staff, the angry kneejerk defensiveness he's prone to, the morally relativist both sides-ism he's prone to, the way he handled things with Wyatt Cenac... he just has a few red flags so I've been reflexively preparing for worse. Thankfully he's past the height of his relevance but oh my god it would be all Fox News covered for a month if it happened.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:42 AM on November 16, 2017 [31 favorites]


Oh, Fox News is gonna whatabout every Democrat and left-leaning personality with allegations of sexual harassment all day long regardless. Then they'll give zero attention to all the Republicans with the same issues. Saturation of info they like and filtering out of info they don't has always been part of the M.O.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:44 AM on November 16, 2017 [19 favorites]


I wonder if, in the midst of all these allegations of sexual harassment against powerful people, we'll eventually see a politician cop to having sexually harassed women without being accused first.

As in, they know they're guilty, they see the way the wind is blowing, and they know there's someone out there working up the courage to accuse them, so they decide to get ahead of it with a preemptive apology.

I don't know if that would make me feel any different about the person, but it would make me feel a whole lot better about the culture that forced them to do it.
posted by gurple at 8:45 AM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


Which is why he needs to resign.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:45 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


The sad and disgusting irony of this tweet from just a month ago.
I believe we should do everything in our power to support survivors of sexual violence.— Sen. Al Franken (@SenFranken) October 20, 2017

posted by Fizz at 8:46 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Amazing how fast The Turtle moves at times like this.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:48 AM on November 16, 2017 [20 favorites]


Oh, Fox News is gonna whatabout every Democrat and left-leaning personality with allegations of sexual harassment all day long regardless. Then they'll give zero attention to all the Republicans with the same issues. Saturation of info they like and filtering out of info they don't has always been part of the M.O.

Right, but if Franken immediately resigns it sets good precedent.

Not even much of a political risk. Democratic governor appoints interim, and there's special election to elect successor. Minnesota's already pretty blue.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:48 AM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


Probably no irony for him. I'm sure he believed it just as he believed he was just joking when he grabbed and kissed a woman without her consent. I think a lot of guys feel if it's not motivated by lust it doesn't count as sexual harassment/assault. He didn't get hard, no one got naked, so no harm, no foul.

Just boys being boys.
posted by asteria at 8:49 AM on November 16, 2017 [24 favorites]


BREAKING: McConnell calls for Ethics review of @alfranken in light of groping allegations

To be fair, McConnell also led investigation that kicked out Republican Bob Packwood.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:50 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


GOP still the party of pedophilia.
posted by Yowser at 8:51 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Sounds good. Can McConnell go after Trump and Thomas too?
posted by asteria at 8:52 AM on November 16, 2017 [28 favorites]


I wonder if, in the midst of all these allegations of sexual harassment against powerful people, we'll eventually see a politician cop to having sexually harassed women without being accused first.

That's one of the things that kills me about this. Imagine if Franken had stepped up and said, "I have behaved badly for a long time" and accounted for his shit. That doesn't excuse anything away, doesn't make anything okay and doesn't dispel anyone's pain. But imagine the worth of an example like that.

Instead, we've got this.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:52 AM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


Oh, Fox News is gonna whatabout every Democrat and left-leaning personality with allegations of sexual harassment all day long regardless.

Meanwhile, the right-wing troll farms will be dispersing fake accounts and doctored photos to rile up the Trumpist base. (Keep an eye on Putin's bot army to see how it handles this topic.) Snopes has had to debunk a couple of false images of Joe Biden groping women that are currently being circulated on Twitter.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:52 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Touching her, 'hover handing' her, or not, it's inexcusable. If he's not touching her, it's a gross invasion of her personal space and bodily autonomy, and If he's touching her, it's assault. Full stop. And to be mugging it up for the camera while doing it is ridiculous shit frosting on top of the already unfathomably poor judgment it would take for a 50-ish-year-old senator to engage in this behavior. This is the sort of thing I would expect from a teenager at a frat party (and even from them it would be unacceptable). From a grown-ass adult in a position of authority, it's inexcusable. We need to do better. We deserve better.

I hope for his own sake and for the sake of the people who respect him that he comes up with a better statement than this weak-ass apology, but he needs to go, if for no other reason than this: here is where we put our money where our mouth is, as Democrats. We can't oust Trump on our own, we can't oust Roy Moore, but we can damn sure oust Franken and keep our own house clean. It makes me really sad, and really angry, because I've liked and admired Franken for a long time, but we can't have any tolerance on this in 2017. None.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 8:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [35 favorites]


There are no heroes.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:54 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


Sounds good. Can McConnell go after Trump and Thomas too?

They're in different co-equal branches of government that are not under his oversight. When he starts turning a blind eye to sexual assault allegations of elected Republican senators then we can start calling him a hypocrite on this issue. He's already come out against Roy Moore.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:54 AM on November 16, 2017


To be fair, McConnell also led investigation that kicked out Republican Bob Packwood.

On the other hand, that was practically 100 years ago.
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:55 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Schumer should have been on the phone to McConnell to hash out a joint statement before McConnell had a chance to comment. Though I could see Mitch making sure he gets the first word even if Schumer tried.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:55 AM on November 16, 2017


There are no heroes.

Sure there are. They just mostly don't go by "Mr."
posted by gurple at 8:55 AM on November 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


Man, he should have thought long and hard before releasing that weak-sauce statement. When that's the best you can do as an official statement, you're just dead to me.

I don't think it's an "official statement" so much as an official response when asked for comment. It's a weak start but at least trending towards good and there isn't any waffling about it.

At least it had better not be the end of his apologizing.
posted by VTX at 8:55 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


> Oh, Fox News is gonna whatabout every Democrat and left-leaning personality with allegations of sexual harassment all day long regardless.

Yes, and also, who gives a fuck what the enemy propagandists say?

Franken needs to resign immediately, and the DNC needs to pressure him to resign immediately (expel him from the senate democratic caucus?) not because it's a bad look or whatever for the Democrats if he doesn't, but because misogynists in political organizations are functionally equivalent to saboteurs.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [45 favorites]


The only oversight of the President and Supreme Court comes from the co-equal branches of government. Checks and balances.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


“I do not recall....”
“I have no recollection...”
“That is not how I remember those events...”
Every man who is in a position of authority/influence in politics, business, education, etc. seems to have the worst fucking memory. You know what, aside from the fact that so many of these men are gross disgusting humans, maybe they should also be fired for incompetence. They have all this responsibility and the worst fucking memory.

I get in trouble at my job if I forget to follow up on an e-mail with a client. These are men who shape so much of our society. Fuck these men. These are the lamest excuses.
posted by Fizz at 8:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [41 favorites]


Oh yeah, this is one of the relatively rare scenarios where I can call my Democratic senators to urge them to take an action that they might not. (I know it's still valuable to call them on stuff we agree about.) Called Harris and Feinstein and asked them to call on him to resign. Response to this needs to be swift and unforgiving.
posted by sunset in snow country at 8:57 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Though I could see Mitch making sure he gets the first word even if Schumer tried.

Totally, and you know he knows that Schumer was opposed to Franken running for that seat, too.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:57 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


So, how is everyone else dealing with the cognitive dissonance of all these sexual predators coming to light, being shamed and disowned and stripped of their careers, while at the same time THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS DONALD TRUMP who is well known for this exact predatory behavior and has been accused of it and admitted it on record and and and ARGH

My theory is that all these sexual predators are being exposed BECAUSE the President of the United States is Donald Trump. I think the collective cultural baggage of having to weather his particular storm has made us incapable of tolerating this behavior anymore. He won, despite the litany of accusations against him. He remains in office, despite the litany of accusations against him. Whatever it is that's going to bring him down is taking too long, so while we wait, we're going after every other bad fish in the sea, just to get it out of our system. Ironically, this stands a good chance of actually "Making America Great Again."
posted by wabbittwax at 8:58 AM on November 16, 2017 [72 favorites]


The only oversight of the President and Supreme Court comes from the co-equal branches of government. Checks and balances.

Right, but practically, the bar for calling an ethics investigation is not the same bar as calling for impeachment.

I can't believe I find myself defending Mitch fucking McConnell in this thread.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:59 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Amazing how fast The Turtle moves at times like this.
Good for him.

Obviously this is made much easier by how Franken was a rising star in the Democratic party who is very convenient to throw down, but this should be a very easy thing for us to all join him in. Modelling an appropriate response to our conservative neighbors is unlikely to mean a damn thing to them, but it will mean the world to us.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:00 AM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


Resistbotted my blue senators asking them to urge Franken to resign. Not excusable.

In addition to just being prima facie misogynist and awful, this is potentially going to screw up this tax vote. Thanks a lot, Al.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:00 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


If he's not touching her, it's a gross invasion of her personal space and bodily autonomy, and If he's touching her, it's assault.

It’s especially violating given that he tried to kiss her and had to be pushed off, and then she avoided him, only to have him do this while she was sleeping and could not object.
posted by corb at 9:02 AM on November 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


Ironically, this stands a good chance of actually "Making America Great Again."

Agreed. If we could somehow negate all of the other terrible damage he's doing to the country, and somehow the net result of Trump in office is that every misogynist and assaulter in state and federal government, on both sides of the aisle, gets exposed and thrown out of office, and we wrap it up by ousting the assaulter-in-chief... it might almost be worth it. It wouldn't be making America "great again", but it'd be making America better.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 9:02 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Obviously this is made much easier by how Franken was a rising star in the Democratic party who is very convenient to throw down, but this should be a very easy thing for us to all join him in.

And to immediately bring up to him should he consider an alternate response to allegations that may come up against a sitting Republican Senator in the future.

...and come on, the odds of that happening have to be pretty good at this point.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:04 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Serious question: in this milieu, will both parties put forward more female candidates for office, purely for practical reasons?
posted by gurple at 9:06 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


In addition to just being prima facie misogynist and awful, this is potentially going to screw up this tax vote.

Minnesota's Governor is Democratic and gets to appoint a potential replacement, so no, it really won't. Franken resigns, Dayton appoints some promising Democratic woman to be the new Senator, bing bang boom.

As a friend said to me on Twitter: "this is literally the universe giving the Dems an easy win to prove they’ll walk what they’re talking"
posted by mightygodking at 9:06 AM on November 16, 2017 [89 favorites]


If you want some good news in terms of pure political calculus, the Menendez jury just announced that it's still deadlocked so whatever odds there were that he would have to step down before Christie gets ejected from Trenton and goes to live in Cowboys Stadium or whatever just decreased even further.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:06 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Convictions are not things that only count against your opponents. The foundation of Franken's political career is his earnestness, his honesty, his transparency. That's now shattered. Yes it hurts in political terms, massively. But someone has to be an adult, set the example & accept the consequences or else it's all about who has more power.
posted by scalefree at 9:07 AM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


McCaskill's office is going to voicemail. People are calling. Wow.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:07 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


In addition to just being prima facie misogynist and awful, this is potentially going to screw up this tax vote. Thanks a lot, Al.

Mendendez is bad. Franken looks like he’s bad now. Immediate resignation allowing Republcians to repeal Obamacare and destroy the tax code would be worse. Accept the results of the ethics investigation, resign pending a replacement being appointed. Resigning unconditionally today is going to be a phyyric victory.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:07 AM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


Serious question: in this milieu, will both parties put forward more female candidates for office, purely for practical reasons?

Hahahahaha no
posted by Melismata at 9:09 AM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


It should not take more than a day for Dayton to have a replacement lined up. Senators are human -- if nothing else, they're mortal and sometimes tragedies happen. With the Senate regularly balanced on a knife edge it would be malpractice for a governor not to have a ready pair of potential appointees.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:09 AM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


Serious question: in this milieu, will both parties put forward more female candidates for office, purely for practical reasons?

Why would it be practical for Republicans to do that? Moore has lost 3% of GOP voters since it was revealed that he's a violent pedophile.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:09 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


They'd better fucking line up a female replacement.
posted by phearlez at 9:10 AM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


fluttering hellfire: "People are calling. Wow."

Republicans are calling. That's never really been a problem--they generate more outrage before breakfast than most people do all day. IOKIYAR in full effect.

---

Also, just to bring people back to earth, I really think it's unlikely that Franken resigns. The picture (while gross and unfortunate) isn't a smoking gun even a little bit--it's exactly what people mean when they talk about "locker room shenanigans". No one was physically hurt, if there hadn't been a camera there it would've been entirely "harmless" etc. I personally don't find it outrageous even if I think it'd be better if no one ever did it.

The accusations of his non-consensual kiss are worse, obviously, but I feel like it's unlikely they'll stick. This is the definition of he-said-she-said, where she's complaining about something she "agreed" to that maybe got a little out of hand. I am pretty sure he isn't leaving the senate.
posted by TypographicalError at 9:15 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


When I was wee, I was super clean. I did things I thought were funny, like miming bad behavior. OF COURSE I wasn't going to wield an ax to hurt anyone (like Moe) or shoplift, but for whatever reason I thought something like pretending to stick things in my coat at the store, very exaggeratedly, with lots of wild-eyed grimacing, was funny.

My read is he's clearly miming groping for a laugh. Bad decision, bad manners, bad society, no funny, it's true. Men are stupid. Al let me down.

In the article she says of the picture, "I couldn’t believe it. He groped me, without my consent, while I was asleep." He literally didn't touch her in that picture.

That's all. She says he assaulted her, I believe her. But the picture doesn't show that.
posted by petebest at 9:17 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


In addition to just being prima facie misogynist and awful, this is potentially going to screw up this tax vote.

> Minnesota's Governor is Democratic and gets to appoint a potential replacement, so no, it really won't.

My fear is this story will completely take over the news cycle indefinitely (not just right wing media; I'm sure CNN and its ilk have been dying to have a few Democrats to punch around in order to prove their "objectivity") allowing Republicans to push through the tax bill with far less public scrutiny than we saw with the health care vote. Unless the Democrats act fast and pressure Franken to resign right away.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:17 AM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


They'd better fucking line up a female replacement.

Am wondering who would want the job, and how much they would commit to the continuous fundraising that congresspeople seem to do.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:18 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


> The accusations of his non-consensual kiss are worse, obviously, but I feel like it's unlikely they'll stick.

Presuming there aren't more allegations, which isn't something that's reasonable to presume.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:18 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


Yeah there's no way Franken's resigning over this.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:18 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


The picture (while gross and unfortunate) isn't a smoking gun even a little bit

No, Franken's done. He's a Democrat. No chance the media leaves this alone. That photo is 10,000x more awful than the Dean Scream.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 9:19 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


In case anyone else wants a script for writing the DNC...

Dear DNC,

I am writing to ask you to request Senator Al Franken resign from his position as the Junior Senator from Minnesota due to the allegations of sexual assault and misconduct that have recently come to light. Even if absolutely none of the allegations are true, it is indisputable that Senator Franken had the poor taste to either sexually assault or mime sexually assaulting a woman when she was sleeping. This is a grave violation of the ideas of consent, respect, and dignity for all persons for which the Democratic Party stands and indicates both a willingness to engage in misogyny and tremendous poor judgement on the Senator's part. Senator Franken's continued representation of our country is an insult to millions of women who have suffered sexual assault. At this critical time in our history, it is absolutely vital that the Democratic Party stands by its ideals and defends the concepts that no other politicians are willing to protect-- including justice and full rights for women. Al Franken is clearly unfit to bear the banner in this charge for equality of the sexes and I am asking the DNC to request his resignation immediately. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
[name]

I managed to write "the ideas of consent, respect, and dignity for all persons for which the Democratic Party stands" without sarcasm, you guys!
posted by WidgetAlley at 9:20 AM on November 16, 2017 [25 favorites]


Charlie Pierce: This Statement Is Not Enough, Senator Franken
I am sure that this will result in another spate of learned commentary about how Democrats have to “reckon” with these events. (We will discuss the whole Reckoning With Clinton business in another post soon.) I stand where I stand on Roy Moore, and where I always do in these situations—as far as their political careers go, once the facts get out, the decision is between them and their constituents. (Although I suspect that the Franken 2020 bandwagon may have cracked an axle.)

Way back when Barney Frank was in Congress, and he got involved with a male prostitute named Steve Gobie, The Boston Globe went into full Hibernian Sex Panic, demanding that Frank resign of the grounds of "Oooh, Icky!" Appearing on Nightline, George Will, of all people, took the Let The People Decide position.

If the voters of Alabama want to be represented by the Don Juan of Cinnabon, that’s their choice and nobody else’s. When Al Franken stands for re-election, the voters of Minnesota deserve the chance to weigh his qualifications in the light of this episode. Anything else is substituting moral theater for political reality.

But, really, that statement is wholly useless.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:22 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


Am wondering who would want the job, and how much they would commit to the continuous fundraising that congresspeople seem to do.

Minnesota's sole female U.S. representative is Rep. Betty McCollum (D). No idea if she wants to step up to the Senate, but she's already on the fundraising treadmill.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:23 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


[Via Twitter]

Ben Shapiro: We have only one solution left: robot politicians.

Haley Byrd: or — hear me out on this — elect more women
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:24 AM on November 16, 2017 [84 favorites]


Maybe this could all move over to the Moore thread or start a new Franken thread? The tax bill problem is still moving forward and I hope everyone is calling their congresspeople about that.
posted by scrowdid at 9:25 AM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


@seungminkim:
NEW: Gillibrand tells reporters the allegations against Franken are “deeply concerning,” says she believes the woman who accused him

@cam_joseph:
.@SenBlumenthal: "groping and sexual harassment are never okay and never funny." Says @SenFranken will have to address allegations.
posted by chris24 at 9:25 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


My congresswoman:
U.S. Rep. Betty McCollum says she once used a rolled-up newspaper to fend off an unwelcome advance from another member of Congress.

“ ‘What the hell are you doing? Go away!’ ” McCollum said Wednesday, describing an encounter years earlier with a former colleague who moved in for an unsolicited hug in the House cloakroom. She said she batted at the advancing congressman with a newspaper as other colleagues looked on and snickered. “I sort of handled it with humor, but it was very clear,” McCollum said. “He never bothered me again.”
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:26 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Phillip Bump, WaPo: Accusations of sexual misconduct throw Franken into a political minefield

Outlines the various scenarios, many of which have been touched on in this thread.
As of writing, [a resignation] still seems fairly unlikely; Franken’s initial statement seems to indicate that he hopes to weather the storm. But just as there will be pressure on him from Republicans, there will also be members of his own party who’d prefer not to have to defend him against his allegations while excoriating Moore — and President Trump, who also faces multiple accusations of sexual misconduct. Does Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer want to have to rail against Moore and Trump knowing full well that the immediate response will be, “Then why didn’t you do anything about Franken?”

After all, it’s not like Democrats would lose the seat.

Should Franken resign, the process to replace him goes like this:
•Since it’s more than six weeks before the primary for that Senate seat, the governor of the state will appoint someone to fill the vacancy.
•Franken’s not up for reelection until 2020, so there would be an election in 2018 to find someone to fill out the rest of his term.
•In 2020, the winner of that election would stand for reelection, if he or she chose to.

The governor of Minnesota is Mark Dayton, who served in the Senate from 2001 to 2007. He’s a staunch Democrat and would presumably appoint a Democrat to fill Franken’s seat.
Sen. Klobuchar is up for reelection in 2018 as well.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:28 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


In addition to Rep. McCollum, we should be looking to brave Minnesota female politicians like State Rep. Erin Maye Quade and State Rep. Laurie Halverson, both of whom have come out swinging against male colleagues of both parties.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:29 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


What about Betsy Hodges, outgoing mayor of Minneapolis?
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:31 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


In addition to Rep. McCollum, we should be looking to brave Minnesota female politicians like State Rep. Erin Maye Quade and State Rep. Laurie Halverson, both of whom have come out swinging against male colleagues of both parties.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:29 AM on November 16 [+] [!]

Or State Rep. Erin Murphy, if she can be swayed off her gubernatorial campaign.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:42 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


So how do we know this Franken thing wasn't leaked to throw us off the damn tax bill bullshittery?
posted by yoga at 9:45 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


> So how do we know this Franken thing wasn't leaked to throw us off the damn tax bill bullshittery?

So what if it was?
posted by tonycpsu at 9:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [53 favorites]


It really doesn't matter whether it was or not. It's disgusting, and we need to believe every bit of it without question, and address it in the strongest possible terms starting with removing him from office.
posted by Krazor at 9:48 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Franken assaulted and groped a woman. I am not easily "thrown off" things I care about, and taking assaulters to task for their poor behavior is one thing I care about. The bullshit tax bill is another.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:48 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]



So how do we know this Franken thing wasn't leaked to throw us off the damn tax bill bullshittery?

I don't think it's any kind of conspiracy. I think it's a consequence of #metoo and women now willing to step forward. And I think we're capable of keeping our eyes on multiple balls, so to speak. The Republicans - most of them anyway - are not that clever.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:49 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


Mod note: Comment removed. Do not fucking start down some "yeah well his accuser is no angel" path in here, what the fuck.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:50 AM on November 16, 2017 [114 favorites]


Franken calls for ethics investigation of himself, issues longer statement (The Hill)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 9:52 AM on November 16, 2017 [51 favorites]


So how do we know this Franken thing wasn't leaked to throw us off the damn tax bill bullshittery?

It probably was, and it probably was timed for now in order to play the whataboutism game with Roy Moore, too. And you know what: who cares? Franken should resign. It sucks but he really fucked up here. And god I hope he does resign. Otherwise all integrity and credibility is out the window and everyone can do anything and there is no god, everything is permitted. Basically Franken resigns or the GOP declares a permanent Purge Night.
posted by dis_integration at 9:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


chris24: NBC: Senators near bipartisan deal on gun control, sources say

A bipartisan group of senators are close to a deal on legislation that would improve background checks for gun sales, three Senate sources familiar with the effort said Wednesday.

The bill, crafted by Sens. John Cornyn, R.-Texas, and Chris Murphy, D-Conn., would incentivize states to strengthen the National Instant Criminal Background Check system to ensure all background check information is uploaded. The bill is expected to come Wednesday evening, with an official announcement Thursday.

While narrow in scope, it is perhaps the best chance for Congress to respond to the series of mass shootings, the sources said.

"The best we can do is give states an incentive to close one little hole in the spacious netting that is the web of gun regulations," said the source, while pushing more NRA-stamped one and five dollar bills in their pockets. "Anything more, and we'd be smothering the country with anti-2nd Amendment regulations." [fake]

If the only place to buy guns was gun stores, this might help, but there are still unregulated online sales and gun shows, to name the most obvious alternative ways to procure guns.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


New statement by Franken. I think this sets the right tone. He accepts responsibility, makes himself accountable to others in the interests of transparency but it's a proportional response.
posted by scalefree at 9:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [32 favorites]


Mod note: Oyéah, cut it out, period.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:55 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Franken calls for ethics investigation of himself, issues longer statement (The Hill)

Interesting play. Does this count as a pivot?
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:55 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Because the federal government can't force states to comply with uploading requirements, it creates incentives like grants for states to do so. It also adds accountability measures like withholding political appointees bonuses for agencies that fail to do so. The bill also directs federal funds to ensure that domestic violence crimes are added to the background-check system.
(new NBC News reporting by Leigh Ann Caldwell and Garrett Haake)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:55 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


So how do we know this Franken thing wasn't leaked to throw us off the damn tax bill bullshittery?

We've just been down this road in the Clinton thread. To anyone eager to progress to the next fuckwitted assertion: that it's not the right time to focus on this because Important Shit is Going Down I suggest, respectfully, that you avoid being That Person.
posted by zarq at 9:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


So he talks a lot about the picture but the kiss seems to be obliquely covered by "While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women’s experiences.". That's -- not a firm denial.
posted by maudlin at 9:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Today Carter Page delivered subpoenaed documents to the Senate Intelligence Committee. Quote: "It's more witch-hunt style on this side, whereas they act more professional on the House side," confirming that the House investigation is tainted garbage.

He did this while wearing a very strange hat.

My current theory of Page is that he's a First Stage Guild Navigator on the Dune equivalent of rumspringa.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [43 favorites]


Given the tone of the rest of his statement I'm more inclined than I was half an hour ago to believe he really does remember it differently. That shouldn't matter, though.

Also, I still think he should resign, but backing an ethics investigation into yourself isn't nothing. At the very least it's not an "I'm staying put forever."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:58 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


women who look up to me

Someday I'd like a fucking apology without the self congratulations.
posted by elsietheeel at 9:59 AM on November 16, 2017 [69 favorites]


This brings up a thing the dems need to be ready for, though. In this case, there's evidence. And creeps should be exposed. Even though it was our guy, thank you for coming forward. Franken should resign.*

You KNOW the right is going to weaponize this tactic though. They're GOING to use "believe women" against us. When a woman accuses $PROMINENT_DEM of sexual misconduct with NO evidence, then what?

* Especially because until the minute he does, he's cover for R's to vote for Moore. Doesn't matter that the scope of the accusation is way different. "Same thing" in political bullshittery.
posted by ctmf at 10:00 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Note: The Republicans are always trying to do something shitty. News coming out when the Republicans are trying to do something shitty is not suspicious timing, it is inevitability.
posted by ckape at 10:00 AM on November 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


New statement by Franken. I think this sets the right tone. He accepts responsibility, makes himself accountable to others in the interests of transparency but it's a proportional response.

It's missing something, that certain je ne sais quoi...

Oh! I know what it's missing. A resignation.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:01 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


You KNOW the right is going to weaponize this tactic though. They're GOING to use "believe women" against us. When a woman accuses $PROMINENT_DEM of sexual misconduct with NO evidence, then what?

Then you resign anyway. Accusation ends political career. We'll be better off for it. Be above even the appearance of impropriety.
posted by mikelieman at 10:02 AM on November 16, 2017


Someday I'd like a fucking apology without the self congratulations.

Seconded. Ever since the Nick Robinson thing in the summer, all I see in these apologies is "waaaaaaaaah I'm so great sorry but please just let me continue to be great." Burn em all.
posted by yellowbinder at 10:03 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


greermahoney: "I just assume everything Chrysostom posts is pretty close to daily, so I just didn't know if something more recent had happened."

Nah, it was just a slow (non-Moore) ELECTIONS NEWS day, and thought it was amusing.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:04 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


So
Page refuses to testify to Senate Intel
He then publicly testifies to House Intel, at his insistence, and oddly claims 5th amendment on all his documents
Gets subpoenaed by Senate Intel and is now giving them documents
This man makes no sense
posted by fluttering hellfire at 10:04 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


I'm not sure that's sustainable, essentially giving the heckler's veto over any candidate to any individual bad actor in the country.
posted by ctmf at 10:05 AM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


Democrats have to be wary of thinking that there is Just One Right Thing we can do to keep the Republicans off our backs and stop them from whatabouting. Guess what? THERE IS NOTHING. NO MAGIC FORMULA for stopping the whataboutism. We are going to be whatabouted no matter how squeaky-clean and above-board we are.

But her emails...But her foundation...But the tarmac meeting...but but but - the Republicans are a buttery bunch. This is who they are and what they do. Leopards, faces. We, Democrats, can be lions or we can be rabbits. I'd rather us be lions.

So let's have the courage of our convictions. No, we will not accept sexual assaulters in our ranks. We are the party of everyone - all races, genders, and creeds should feel safe in the Democratic tent.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:05 AM on November 16, 2017 [49 favorites]


Then you resign anyway. Accusation ends political career. We'll be better off for it. Be above even the appearance of impropriety.

It's not like this isn't "no evidence" either. Franken is there, the woman is sleeping, the hands are on the breasts, the woman says it wasn't consensual. It's done. This isn't 40 year old he said she said. It's there in full colour for anyone to see.
posted by Talez at 10:06 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


That's -- not a firm denial.

It reads to me more like he's trying to thread the need between "women accusing men should be believed" and "I genuinely don't remember it happening like that but I could be wrong."

Calling for an investigation on yourself and submitting to due process doesn't seem like the most right thing he could do but it is a right thing. I'll take it for now.

The groping we're talking about here is fingertips lightly touching a women over body armor. It's disgusting but it's a long long way from the kind of stuff Moore is being accused of.
posted by VTX at 10:06 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


computer, show me the Venn diagram of people dismissing the Al Franken allegations, people dismissing the Bill Clinton allegations, and people who say they care much more than Republicans whether their representatives are sex criminals
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:07 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


I'm not sure that's sustainable, essentially giving the heckler's veto over any candidate to any individual bad actor in the country.

Well, we'll get a lot of churn. Soon enough we'll find "Not Milkshake Ducks"
posted by mikelieman at 10:08 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Then you resign anyway. Accusation ends political career. We'll be better off for it. Be above even the appearance of impropriety.

This. It's like conflict of interest; even if there's no actual conflict of interest, the appearance can be sufficient to end your credibility. No one is entitled to a political career, just like no one is entitled to be a famous movie star or artist. Franken did a bad thing and needs to step down for the good of women, party, and country.

I'm not sure that's sustainable, essentially giving the heckler's veto over any candidate to any individual bad actor in the country.

The thing is credibility. Moore's accusers have credibility; there are records and meticulously reported supporting information. Franken's accuser has credibility: there's photographic evidence of him touching her without her consent.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:08 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


BTW I love Carter Page in his goofy hat.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 10:09 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


The groping we're talking about here is fingertips lightly touching a women over body armor. It's disgusting but it's a long long way from the kind of stuff Moore is being accused of.

WTF. You don't get it. It's not about magnitude. It's not about fingertips lightly touching. She's asleep. Hell, she didn't even know about it at first. Imagine being a woman and not being able to fall asleep among your comrades with the fear you may be fondled? Even lightly.
posted by Talez at 10:09 AM on November 16, 2017 [82 favorites]


The groping we're talking about here is fingertips lightly touching a women over body armor. It's disgusting but it's a long long way from the kind of stuff Moore is being accused of.

Are you serious? No one is saying it's tantamount to what Moore is being accused of. REGARDLESS of wtf Moore did, it's repulsive. False equivalency is a really bad look, especially when it comes to assault.
posted by mynameisluka at 10:10 AM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


"Oh, it was just a little tiny assault! No big deal!" Come on.
posted by mynameisluka at 10:10 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


The groping we're talking about here is fingertips lightly touching a women over body armor. It's disgusting but it's a long long way from the kind of stuff Moore is being accused of.

'Well, sure, he put his hands on her breasts while she was sleeping, but hey, he did it lightly and she was wearing clothes and at least he's not a pedophile.'

Are you kidding me with this shit?
posted by zarq at 10:11 AM on November 16, 2017 [31 favorites]


It's disgusting but it's a long long way from the kind of stuff Moore is being accused of.

Right: Franken should resign in shame and Moore should be in prison until he dies. Commensurate consequences.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:11 AM on November 16, 2017 [50 favorites]


Roy Moore is already playing the Franken issue to his advantage.
posted by dis_integration at 10:11 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Amy Klobuchar's statement, if forthcoming, is likely to bear heavily on Franken's fate.
posted by Justinian at 10:11 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


I confess that I sometimes roll my eyes at some of the self-righteous comments I read on Metafilter and assumed this was being a bit overblown. But I've just seen that photo and Jesus Christ that guy is an asshole and should never be allowed to hold a public office.
posted by night_train at 10:11 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Not a good answer.

@MKhan47:
.@SenWhitehouse tells reporters: “You guys need to find something more interesting” when asked about Franken allegations.


A better answer.

@desiderioDC:
GILLIBRAND says Franken’s response was not sufficient. Calls for investigation.
posted by chris24 at 10:12 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


It's like people saying "she was dressed like x, she does y for a job". A woman will do those things consensually. She will dress to attract a mate to choose one not have one forced upon her. She will do y job for a paycheck not because she's up for anybody to force themselves upon her.
posted by Talez at 10:13 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


The Democratic party needs to start running an ombuds office where people can report harassment and assault by candidates, before they get elected. The way to get out ahead of the problem, to make sure we elect people who don't behave this way (and that we don't elect people who do), is to find a safe way for people to report and be believed.

I would actually argue that this should be a standard part of oppo research into our own candidates; I'm just not sure how to structure that to protect people who might not feel safe reporting.
posted by nat at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


@MKhan47:
.@SenWhitehouse tells reporters: “You guys need to find something more interesting” when asked about Franken allegations.

That reporter has since followed up with a 'clarifying' tweet that actually reads more like a complete backtrack:

I must clarify: it appears @SenWhitehouse made this comment in passing *before* he was directly asked about the Franken allegations.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


@MKhan47 @SenWhitehouse
I must clarify: it appears @SenWhitehouse made this comment in passing *before* he was directly asked about the Franken allegations.
posted by asteria at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Then you resign anyway. Accusation ends political career. We'll be better off for it. Be above even the appearance of impropriety.

I don't know the solution, but I don't like that. It seems almost dystopian. In this case the picture alone is enough for resignation, and the fact that the woman assaulted has been pictured scantily clad has about as much to do with the allegation as it does when people discount the experiences of sex workers: none whatsoever. He needs to go for sure.

The idea that anyone accused must go, even if the accusations are false and even if they have been drummed up by Bannonites, gives republicans too much power to damn people who might do some good. Plus, if it was met with that level of success a couple of times, it wouldn't be long before they would be trying to pull it on a mass scale to the extent that there wouldn't be a democratic party if a change in response wasn't implemented.

One might say that the proper thing to do is to only run women, but what is to stop them from being accused too? Sure, the optics would be different and people might be more skeptical, but the whataboutiest of whatabouters would whatabout endlessly on both sides of the political spectrum if those cases were handled differently.

Again, I don't know what the solution is, but having a magic word like communist that allows a person to be damned whether innocent or guilty hasn't worked well in the past.
posted by bootlegpop at 10:16 AM on November 16, 2017 [42 favorites]


Equivalence, not equivalency. Come to think of it, that might not even be the term I'm looking for. Sorry, I'm riled up over here, and fatigued that all assault must apparently now be held to the standard of "repeatedly raped teenagers" in order to be listened to or taken seriously.
posted by mynameisluka at 10:16 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Thanks for the clarification.
posted by chris24 at 10:16 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


That's a pretty major "clarification". I'm not sure the word clarify encompasses a takeback of that magnitude.
posted by Justinian at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


I hope Whitehouse flames the journalist. I know he probably won't but he can be delicious in that way when he wants to.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 10:18 AM on November 16, 2017


Melismata: "Serious question: in this milieu, will both parties put forward more female candidates for office, purely for practical reasons?

Hahahahaha no"

Half of the Democrats running for Virginia House of Delegates this year were women.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:19 AM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


There's room for considering the credibility of an accusation if there's some factor that makes the accusation non-credible beyond "I like the guy," e.g. factual inconsistencies. But if it's just a straight he-said-she-said, I don't see how you can look at this year and say that's not good enough to be credible.

But that's all beside the point because there's a goddamn picture.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:20 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


Ben Shapiro: We have only one solution left: robot politicians.

Haley Byrd: or — hear me out on this — elect more women

Okay, but you'll need to make a good argument that the women will be better than the robots.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:21 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Roger Stone, who knew about the Wikileaks stuff in advance, also knew about the Franken thing in advance. Doesn't change how we should react, just a big wtf?

So... wtf? That's weird.
posted by Justinian at 10:21 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


I hope Whitehouse flames the journalist. I know he probably won't but he can be delicious in that way when he wants to.

If he does, I assume there'll be a chart involved.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:21 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


The groping we're talking about here is fingertips lightly touching a women over body armor.

FLAMES ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE.
posted by corb at 10:21 AM on November 16, 2017 [36 favorites]


zombieflanders: "In addition to Rep. McCollum, we should be looking to brave Minnesota female politicians like State Rep. Erin Maye Quade and State Rep. Laurie Halverson, both of whom have come out swinging against male colleagues of both parties."

Or Minnesota Attorney General Lori Swanson.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:21 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


Half of the Democrats running for Virginia House of Delegates this year were women.

O brave new world, where this statement is noteworthy.
posted by Mayor West at 10:23 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


I'm furious about this. Al Franken was a good senator, and a well-known political figure in a field where name recognition is everything. He was such an asset to the Democrats and to liberals at a time when they need every resource they have to help them get Cheeto out of office. And now Franken's political usefulness is over. Why the hell couldn't he have kept his tongue and his hands to himself? News flash to sexual predators: when you cross that line of consent, you not only betray whatever woman you've disrespected, you also poison every other thing you do in life, because you've proved that you cannot be trusted.
posted by orange swan at 10:23 AM on November 16, 2017 [89 favorites]


Hugh Hefner is dead. The age of swinging hurf-durf 60's Democrats rat-pack wannabes assaulting women should have died long before he did. Yes, there are do perfect candidates or perfect politicians, but I'm all right with us as a party (and I wish as a species) agreeing that we're done hand-waving harassment, assault or just general misogyny with a "what you gonna do? Its just men/comedy/drunken behavior/locker room talk."

At the very least, we have to demand accountability from our fellows on the left. Yeah, it sucks that somebody who has been a pretty potent defender of progressive values has to resign while the groper-in-chief keeps on groping - it sucks that we can't be hypocrites too - but this is an issue of values as well as an issue about an assault by Al Franken on Leeann Tweeden. Standing up for our values takes courage and being willing to make decisions that we hate and make us angry and sad.

Among other things, we value women's rights, we value consent, we value the right to have sovereignty over your own body, we value respect and we value gender equality. We are opposed to sexual assault and to a person in a position of power hurting and humiliating a person with less power.

I'd prefer for there to be a replacement Senator ready to go when he resigns but he has to resign. We have to walk this walk or our values are empty.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:26 AM on November 16, 2017 [29 favorites]


> The Democratic party needs to start running an ombuds office where people can report harassment and assault by candidates, before they get elected. The way to get out ahead of the problem, to make sure we elect people who don't behave this way (and that we don't elect people who do), is to find a safe way for people to report and be believed.

And also the DSA needs something similar.
  1. It would help w/ recruiting women / encouraging women to seek leadership positions.
  2. It would send a message to men who came in via chapo or whatever that "brocialism" is not acceptable.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:27 AM on November 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


Someday I'd like a fucking apology without the self congratulations.

It's poorly worded, but I think it's less a "lookamee, big shot" and more a response to all the people (in this thread, too) that had placed so many hopes on him.

It's acknowledging the power he had and has, and ties in with using that power *now* as a microscope on that power.
posted by notsnot at 10:27 AM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


I hope Whitehouse flames the journalist.

I don't. She's already getting a ton of shit on her Twitter feed from both sides. (Right wingers are accusing her of bowing to pressure from her liberal media higher-ups by retracting her initial statement, which they claim is true.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:29 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Based on what we know right now I think there's virtually no chance Franken resigns. Don't hit me, I'm not saying that's what I think he should do but rather what I think is going to happen. If any more women come forward about him then I think he'll be forced out.
posted by Justinian at 10:29 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


These things will necessarily have to be on a case by case basis, “all Democrats must resign if accused” is not the solution, because yes, it will take Hannity and Bannon and James Okeefe about one day to find “accusers”.

We have the same problem on college campuses right now, there has to be a process, and it might be inadequate and messy, but a simple accusation can not be all it takes to flip a Senate seat, or to end a college student’s future. The accused have due process rights, and Franken has more because he’s actually in the Senate, not a candidate.

The thing is shitty, but there has to be a process for shitty things.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:29 AM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]


My read is he's clearly miming groping for a laugh. Bad decision, bad manners, bad society, no funny, it's true. Men are stupid. Al let me down.

In the article she says of the picture, "I couldn’t believe it. He groped me, without my consent, while I was asleep." He literally didn't touch her in that picture.

Whether or not there was any bodily contact isn't the reason why this is disgusting. What is disgusting is that he felt that the concept of groping a sleeping, unconsenting woman could be funny instead of him thinking it was horrifying.

I mean, basically you're saying the equivalent of "but they didn't actually joke that they were 'Nazis', they joked that they were 'Schmazis', that's not even the same word".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:30 AM on November 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


The House is now voting on their tax bill. Matt Fuller's latest whip count has about 14 GOP dissenters, which isn't enough. This thing is advancing.
posted by zachlipton at 10:32 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


Roger Stone, who knew about the Wikileaks stuff in advance, also knew about the Franken thing in advance. Doesn't change how we should react, just a big wtf?

Since Franken really did do what he is accused of doing, any conservative machinations that Stone may have done or been privy to only center around the particular timing of the revelation.

The fact of Franken's behavior hasn't changed, and our response to Franken shouldn't change.

If we proactively root out harassers and assaulters, we don't have to worry about whether Stone et al have some influence over when these allegations surface. Bonus: it's just the right thing to do anyway.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 10:34 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


Even if he isn't physically touching her in the picture, she has no idea what happened before or after the picture was snapped. Maybe he did touch her. Maybe he didn't. All she knows is that he's laughing, someone else is taking a picture, and of the however many others on the plane watching, nobody stopped it or said anything to her until she saw the picture, much later. That's fucking awful. I can only imagine how scary and vulnerable and just horrible that must feel.

Fuck Al Franken.
posted by Roommate at 10:35 AM on November 16, 2017 [31 favorites]


Menendez prosecution ends in mistrial.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:35 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


Al Franken. I’m sad.
Also, so MAD! I called my senators to urge him to step down.
posted by Gadgetenvy at 10:36 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


The House's initial tax plan was never going to fail in the House. As with health care it's in the Senate where the real action will occur. Though I suppose it's possible that the final bill which must be passed after the House&Senate bills are reconciled could face actual opposition in the House rather than the symbolic opposition this bill is facing.
posted by Justinian at 10:36 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Al Franken needs to step down and resign right now. Personally I believe his accuser and that's reason enough for me.

Beyond that, even assuming the most generous possible reading of everything that's been put forth, he should resign and step down and do it quickly because there is a lot more at stake here than Al Franken's personal fate and career as a senator. If he digs in like Moore and if the DNC waffles on this this they are handing a potentially massive victory and PR coup to the GOP and the Trump regime and they could do severe and lasting damage to the blue wave that's been forming and that recently surfaced in VA etc.

Dammit, Al. So disappointed. Go, get in front of it and do the right thing.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 10:37 AM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


Can it still fail on motion to proceed in the Senate?
posted by fluttering hellfire at 10:37 AM on November 16, 2017


It's theoretically possible but I don't see why it would.
posted by Justinian at 10:38 AM on November 16, 2017


Another reminder that this tax bill is a Seriously Bad Thing. Please contact your congresspeople.
Phone: (202) 224-3121
Fax: faxzero.com
Or that resistbot thing that I've never used but people who live in the 21st century can tell you about.
posted by mcduff at 10:38 AM on November 16, 2017 [19 favorites]


Emily Foxhall and Dana Guthrie, Houston Chronicle: Sheriff's warning to 'F--- TRUMP' truck owner draws outrage on Facebook
"I have received numerous calls regarding the offensive display on this truck as it is often seen along FM 359," Nehls wrote. "If you know who owns this truck or it is yours, I would like to discuss it with you."

Turns out, a woman who identified herself as the driver said she used to work for Nehls in the county jail.

Karen Fonseca said the truck belongs to her husband but that she often drives it. They had the sticker made and added it to the window after the billionaire real estate magnate and reality TV star was sworn into office.

The sticker has attracted attention many times before, Fonseca said. People shake their head. They take photos of it. Officers have pulled her over but failed to find a reason for writing a ticket.
Now the sheriff is taking it on, but Fonseca did not plan to contact him.

"It's not to cause hate or animosity," said Fonseca, 46. "It's just our freedom of speech and we're exercising it."
More from WaPo
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


Tweeden says she accepts Franken's apology which probably, as a political matter, buys him some time to let the ethics investigation play out. Whether that's the right thing for him to do is again another matter.
posted by Justinian at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


Chrysostom: "@LauraLitvan: Sen Dianne Feinstein, top Democrat on Senate Judiciary, has sent letter to WH seeking documents related to Jared Kushner's role in the firings of James Comey and Mike Flynn"

O ho, it's actually the Judiciary Committee (Grassley and Feinstein), not DiFi freelancing.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


(She also said that she isn't calling on him to step down which I probably should have included.)
posted by Justinian at 10:41 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Goddammit Al, I'm so disappointed in you and I thought you were better than that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:42 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


These things will necessarily have to be on a case by case basis, “all Democrats must resign if accused” is not the solution, because yes, it will take Hannity and Bannon and James Okeefe about one day to find “accusers”.

I want a meat grinder of a nonpartisan investigative body in Congress so the parties can throw people like Franken to Muelleresque wolves when stuff like this is reported. Take the process away from the politics and make it a trial by fire. The legislators can act on the recommendations of this body but this body gets to do its thing first.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:42 AM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


tax what now?
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:43 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


David Litt, Vox: I spent my 20s as an Obama speechwriter. Here’s what he taught me about growing up.
In this scary political moment, when a 71-year-old kid is the most powerful person on Earth, we could be forgiven for dreaming of Obama’s return. Maybe he’ll come back and save us, the way our parents swooped in and picked us up when we were little, and lost, and afraid.

It’s a comforting fantasy. But if we want the sense of possibility and decency at the heart of the Obama movement to return, we will have to be our own grown-ups. We will have to save ourselves. That’s the idea at the heart of democracy. None of us is the best of We, the People. But we are all we’ve got — and if each of us does their part, we’re good enough.

I remain an optimist — in the long term, anyway — because of and not despite what I’ve learned about being an adult. If there are no perfect grown-ups, it means that generations before us had to figure things out too. Our heroes were human beings. In their own messy and imperfect way, they preserved government of, by, and for the people, and handed it down to us.

If we reject Trumpism not just as a political philosophy but as a way of life — if we define ourselves by our responsibilities instead of our possessions, if we seek fulfillment over fleeting pleasure, if we earn respect instead of demanding adoration — then I believe we too can protect the democracy we love.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:43 AM on November 16, 2017 [29 favorites]


Agreed, jason_steakums. Let's get all of these assholes.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:44 AM on November 16, 2017


got here late, after hearing the Franken news, wondered what the reax on the Blue would be. now after reading a few hundred comments: it's really heartening to see basically zero "our team" or "question her motives" posts. the people here stand on their principles, and that's awesome. and judging by comments sections and news reports, it's a notable difference from the crowd that supports Roy Moore and Donald Trump. thanks Metafilter for bolstering my wavering faith in humanity.
posted by martin q blank at 10:45 AM on November 16, 2017 [34 favorites]


O ho, it's actually the Judiciary Committee (Grassley and Feinstein), not DiFi freelancing.

That's a big deal. Grassley was stonewalling everything. I wonder what caused him to actually agree to investigate something.

Also, someone at the DOD goofed and their official twitter account briefly retweeted a tweet calling for Moore, Franken, and Trump to all step down.

And hey, it's the CEO of Coke saying he wouldn't boost jobs and wages if he could repatriate overseas cash at a low rate, but the dividend would increase.
posted by zachlipton at 10:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


I'm not sure what an investigation would do in this case. Nobody seems to dispute the basic framework. Franken and Tweeden were on a USO tour. He wanted to rehearse a skit which involved a kiss. She says this made her very uncomfortable but went along with it and when the kiss came he stuck his tongue down her throat etc. There is also a picture of him pretending to touch her inappropriately while she is asleep. His defense, such as it is, is that he didn't actually touch her and it was a poor attempt at a joke, and that he remembers their encounter in rehearsal differently.

What's an investigation going to do? That's basically everything. There's a photograph of the fake groping. I suppose they could get their testimony on the record but I suspect Franken would simply ask that her testimony be accepted into the record and he wouldn't deny it.
posted by Justinian at 10:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


Chrysostom -Nah, it was just a slow (non-Moore) ELECTIONS NEWS day, and thought it was amusing

And it certainly was. That guy seems like a nightmare.
posted by greermahoney at 10:47 AM on November 16, 2017


"It's just our freedom of speech and we're exercising it."

Indeed.

Other examples of lawless law and order, from the WaPo, Tough-talking sheriffs raise their voices in Trump era:
From deep-blue states such as Massachusetts and New York to traditionally conservative strongholds in the South and the Midwest, locally elected sheriffs have emerged as some of the president’s biggest defenders. They echo Trump’s narrative on everything from serious policy debates such as immigration to fleeting political dust-ups with NFL players who kneel during the national anthem.

With Trump dominating the national conversation through tweets, sheriffs are mimicking his antagonistic political style, alarming progressives and some legal observers who fear an increasingly undisciplined justice system. Some have even gone to battle with Democratic officials, bucking their “politically correct” policies and using rhetoric that puts some residents on edge.
From the New Republic, Anti-Sanctuary Armies, about the rapidly expanding number of sheriff's offices participating in ICE's 287(g) program, which allows local police to act as federal immigration officers and lead raids and initiate deportations, to both secure funding and to burnish their tough on crime credentials.
Such forceful approaches have opened the 287(g) program to abuse, however. One of its most prominent supporters was Joe Arpaio, the former sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona, whose racial profiling and mistreatment of prisoners eventually led the Obama administration to scale back the 287(g) program. But as Trump’s decision to pardon Arpaio has emphasized, the current president has no such qualms.

Far from being a “commonsense” approach to immigration enforcement, as the Trump administration claims, however, the 287(g) program may actually make communities less safe, by shifting the focus away from run-of-the-mill crimes and fracturing the trust between local police and immigrants in their communities. Already, there’s evidence that immigrants are reporting fewer crimes since Trump became president.
posted by peeedro at 10:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


House bill passed 227-205.

Call your Senators.
posted by zachlipton at 10:51 AM on November 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


In other news, the tax bill just passed in the house.
posted by dis_integration at 10:51 AM on November 16, 2017


INVOLUNTARY RETIREMENT WATCH: Barbara Comstock (VA-10) voted Yes.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:54 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Emily Foxhall and Dana Guthrie, Houston Chronicle: Sheriff's warning to 'F--- TRUMP' truck owner draws outrage on Facebook

Guess all of the "Trump That Bitch" stickers weren't a bridge too far for good ol' decent Texans.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:55 AM on November 16, 2017 [33 favorites]


As an non-American the office of Sheriff is fascinating. It seems like something that very much should not be an elected position and it also seems to always have the very worst possible person elected to it. It's very rare to see a headline with the word "Sheriff" in it that isn't in some way horrifying.
posted by Artw at 10:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [41 favorites]


I'm not sure what an investigation would do in this case.

It would provide a vehicle for discovering if this was one isolated incident of bad judgement or part of a broader pattern of behavior.
posted by scalefree at 10:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


Does someone have a link to which assholes voted to pass that shit? (I will look for it in a minute...posting from phone.)

And the Franken shit. I'm so disappointed but that shit needs to be dealt with on both sides of the aisle.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 10:58 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Here's a list of the 13 Republican dissenters (wow, Matt Fuller predicted about 14 and here we are; he's so good at this), so you can call up any Republican reps you may happen to have who aren't on this list and ask why they voted to raise taxes on the middle class. You can thank the ones on this list, unless their reason for voting no was "because rich people still have to pay some taxes" or something.

@jaketapper: Juror says @SenatorMenendez jury was deadlocked 10-2 with 10 favoring acquittal.

I still think he needs to go once Christie is out, but wow. Wonder if they're going to retry the case with those numbers.
posted by zachlipton at 10:59 AM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


I was with up to "not remembering rehearsal" like she did.

Of course, because it’s Tuesday for him and everything to her. Again.
posted by corb at 11:00 AM on November 16, 2017 [26 favorites]


It would provide a vehicle for discovering if this was one isolated incident of bad judgement or part of a broader pattern of behavior.

True, though I think we'll find that out anyway based on whether more people come forward publicly.
posted by Justinian at 11:01 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Yeah, if I were Governor Murphy, I would be leaning hard on Menendez to either resign, or failing that, not run again. New Jersey can do better.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:02 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Okay, Barbara Comstock. I'm coming for you next year.
posted by dogheart at 11:03 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


I wonder how much of this stuff gets discovered in the campaign exploration phase (when you oppo-research yourself) and is brushed off as unimportant.

Will be interesting to see how much self-reporting takes place in the future. Or if the majority of men will just decide they can't run.

Have there been any analogous situations where a candidate announces + lays out X Y Z that they did that was wrong?
posted by birdheist at 11:05 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Anthony Wiener ran for mayor a few times after his first round of scandals.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:08 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


I'm not sure what an investigation would do in this case. Nobody seems to dispute the basic framework.

A few things, beyond providing a forum for other allegations (as noted). Interview the other people on the plane to see if Franken was posing for a joke photo, as he claims, or actually groped her. Give her a public forum to make her charges. And perhaps most importantly, establish a process to investigate other cases where Senators are accused of sexual harassment or assault.

Senators such as, say, Roy Moore.
posted by msalt at 11:09 AM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


Anthony Wiener ran for mayor a few times after his first round of scandals.

Oops, I think I read that wikipedia page wrong. Sorry!
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:10 AM on November 16, 2017


I sent a version of WidgetAlley's letter to both of my senators (Harris and Feinstein). Feinstein's e-mail contact form, which requires you to choose an issue/topic, doesn't even have women's issues (or an "other" option, for that matter) listed, while Harris has women's issues and abortion (as well as family, children, adoption, and aging) listed as separate topics. I never noticed that before.
posted by Anita Bath at 11:10 AM on November 16, 2017 [20 favorites]


A few things, beyond providing a forum for other allegations (as noted). Interview the other people on the plane to see if Franken was posing for a joke photo, as he claims, or actually groped her.

"The joke is, she told him not to do anything like that again but now she's asleep. The joke is, she can't stop him. The joke is, he gets the last word, the last laugh. The joke is, he gets to humiliate her all over again.

The joke is, that's what she gets.

Maybe I'm one of those humorless feminists but I don't find this joke very funny."
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:12 AM on November 16, 2017 [53 favorites]


It's a good apology as apologies go. Specifically, this is an ACTUAL apology...except for the equivocation of "I don't remember the rehearsal." And the bit about "women who look up to me" stinks of the same bit from Louis CK's non-apology-admission where he repeatedly noted that those were women who admired him. So it's a "good" apology that still turns my stomach.

I'm still looking at her story and that picture and I can't believe she's the only one. Franken could get out in front of the rest of it. He could have gotten out in front of this, too, by saying something well before now. I flatly don't believe he saw everything happening with Weinstein and other prominent figures and just completely forgot about all his own bad behavior. He has known this about himself all along, and he could have said something before now. He didn't.

Franken has to go.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:13 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


True, though I think we'll find that out anyway based on whether more people come forward publicly.

This would be a more formal setting, not just the court of public opinion.
posted by scalefree at 11:13 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


I haven't been following the Menendez trial super closely, but I was led to believe by early reports that the defense was going with the "they're friends, he would have done all this anyway" approach that worked out nicely for the former VA governor. And thanks to SCOTUS his buddy can give him all the SuperPAC money he wants through his eyeball doctor business. It's sleazy and corrupt, imho, but I don't think they're ever going to make this stick to Menendez because they've got no smoking gun of any kind.
posted by xyzzy at 11:16 AM on November 16, 2017


Have there been any analogous situations where a candidate announces + lays out X Y Z that they did that was wrong?

Not a candidate at the time, but Hamilton's Reynolds Pamphlet!
posted by jason_steakums at 11:17 AM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


Amy Klobuchar's statement (Facebook link):
Here’s my statement I issued on the need for an ethics investigation regarding Senator Franken: “This should not have happened to Leeann Tweeden. I strongly condemn this behavior and the Senate Ethics Committee must open and conduct a thorough investigation. This is another example of why we need to change work environments and reporting practices across the nation, including in Congress.”
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:19 AM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]


except for the equivocation of "I don't remember the rehearsal."

I don't think he's saying he doesn't remember the rehearsal. He's saying, he doesn't remember it happening the way she remembers it happening.
posted by msalt at 11:19 AM on November 16, 2017


Both of my senators are already staunchly against the tax bill. Anything else we can do in blue states?? I've been under the impression that calling not-your-representatives is not useful.
posted by nakedmolerats at 11:20 AM on November 16, 2017


Not a candidate at the time, but Hamilton's Reynolds Pamphlet!

daaaayum
posted by entropicamericana at 11:20 AM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


I doubt the issue was "nobody knew that Candidate SoandSo harassed women." Given the revelations (past the "whisper network") that Congress has a sexual harassment problem, and - just to name one person - Franken's past in comedy, which we are also seeing has a deep-seated sexual harassment and outright rape problem - I don't think it's that nobody knew. It's that nobody took it seriously either as oppo, or as something a candidate had to come clean about. #metoo has changed the rules of the game, and now women are being taken seriously, or at least more seriously, and the "boys will be boys" wall of protection is showing some cracks.

I surmise that Franken might have thought that the past was past, and it wouldn't come back to bite him, because until recently, it wouldn't have.

Finally, I don't think any Republican whataboutism is going to stop the blue wave, but if Democratic leadership doesn't take harassment seriously, that will. Who is a majority of the blue wave? Women! Women who are angry that we have a President Pussy-Grabber. These women are not going to be happy if the Democratic leadership doesn't take them seriously.

We can't rely on the brain-dead loyalty that the Republican right is showing to their leaders. They will stand by their man right or wrong, and vote like Votey McVotefaces, because loyalty and duty - feudal virtues! - are what they run on. We Democrats can't count on that, so we have to offer integrity and inclusiveness.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:21 AM on November 16, 2017 [40 favorites]


Based on Klobuchar's statement I think it likely Franken survives this unless more accusers come forward.
posted by Justinian at 11:21 AM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


Who is a majority of the blue wave? Women!

Women of color, from what I can tell.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:24 AM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


Seconding everyone else who said that Fraken needs to resign immediately. We need to have zero tolerance for sexual assault of any type from everyone - but even more so for people who are in positions of power and authority.

I see a hint of the whole "he's learned some since then" from some folk, and while there may be a shade of truth there, I have a really really hard time seeing that. I mean I did all sorts of stuff when I was younger that I now see as creepy, and I learned from them - but there are some caveats to that, which are 1. I never groped or otherwise assaulted someone, like that was obviously a line that shouldn't be crossed, and 2. those were my early
teens at the latest. Franken was well beyond old enough to know better... this wasn't some high school or college indiscretion, this was clearly part of his character for his adult life.

There's would possibly be some to be said for a response that would have gone into the norms of his social spheres, and how he has questioned those norms since and genuinely regret them, and if that had been accompanied by a pushback since then with all of his peers when similar behavior was witnessed - along with him being forthcoming about his own past - I'd be more willing to accept the idea of reformation/transformation. And if he had discussed it openly with the victim, and they had come to terms with it a long time ago, it would be a totally different thing. But the time for that was in the past, not reactively upon a story being published, and this was not that response. I'll grant that it's better than may other assaulters have done publicly. Doesn't mean that it's "enough."

At this point, I cannot view any responses about "having learned since then" as anything other than an attempt to justify his actions. These events are never one off - there's never someone who did this once and ONLY once as an older adult. And even if he had the perfect response here, the fact that it needed to be a reactive thing means he needs to go. And if you are reading this and truly believe it's OK because he wasn't actually touching her or because there was body armor there or whatever - well, I sincerely hope you aren't in a position of power or never end up in one, because you clearly don't understand the power dynamic at play here. I do think he sincerely regrets what he did, but that doesn't change how this has played out.

I'm saying all of this as someone who genuinely looked up to Franken - I'm unbelievably pissed off and let down by this. He needs to go now, there's no place for him as a Senator, or frankly in any position of power - and anything reactive is too late to make a difference here. The time to get in front of this and make amends and seek salvation was YEARS ago.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:28 AM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


It's not quite clear to me on the timing of a replacement appointment.

An appointment would take place immediately, I think, it's the replacement election whose timing is dependent on a bunch of factors.
posted by Justinian at 11:31 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


I'm actually not even convinced there will be a real ethics investigation about Franken any time soon. When would McConnell find time for that? I suppose next year they'll have some breathing room but they are jammed until after New Years. There's even a decent chance of a government shutdown.
posted by Justinian at 11:33 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


In addition to the one linked by by Pope Guilty, Alexandra Erin's other thread on this is worth reading. It covers a lot of talking points of defense that this situation naturally prompts.

Myself, I like to imagine a near future where the "What if the replacement is a horrible regressive Republican" thing becomes less of a thinkable concern, regardless of the office in question. Not just because I don't want future Republicans to be so regressive (shh, we can all dream it), but because progressives have to start thinking about sexual misconduct/assault as a truly uncrossable line.

If Governor John Secretlyamurderer's secret murders come to light, and this means the new governor is Jack Totallyawfulconservative, you know whose fault that is? John's and John's alone. The systems of justice/reckoning should be understood as automatic (with the caveat that the actors of justice/reckoning are only human) and not subject to political calculus.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 11:40 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


Roger Stone does not approve of Carter Page's hat
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:43 AM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Here's a list of the 13 Republican dissenters (wow, Matt Fuller predicted about 14 and here we are; he's so good at this), so you can call up any Republican reps you may happen to have who aren't on this list and ask why they voted to raise taxes on the middle class. You can thank the ones on this list, unless their reason for voting no was "because rich people still have to pay some taxes" or something.

Rohrabacher is on that list of GOP Nays. I feel like I should tweet him an atta boy, but honestly he would know I don't really mean it.
posted by notyou at 11:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


"'...women who look up to me'

Someday I'd like a fucking apology without the self congratulations."

For reals. Time to familiarize yourselves with the past tense, assholes.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:47 AM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


> You KNOW the right is going to weaponize this tactic though. They're GOING to use "believe women" against us. When a woman accuses $PROMINENT_DEM of sexual misconduct with NO evidence, then what?

I give a shit. Sexual assault is the epitome of a non-partisan issue. Let's not make it one.

> "..."all Democrats must resign if accused” is not the solution, because yes, it will take Hannity and Bannon and James Okeefe about one day to find “accusers”.

Honest question: how would that really work out? Bannon et al would have to groom someone with more than passing familiarity of their ratfuckee, and is also really, really pissed off at him for non-sexual assault reasons. From a strictly pragmatic viewpoint, that'd mean threading a pretty narrow needle, or it'd mean the ratfuckee would have to be a real fucking asshole for non-sexual assault reasons.
posted by klarck at 11:48 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


I don't think he's saying he doesn't remember the rehearsal. He's saying, he doesn't remember it happening the way she remembers it happening.

I find this so weird in phrasing no matter what. Why would you make a statement like this non-denial denial, whether it happened exactly as described or completely differently or not at all? "I remember it differently" is effectively meaningless and is meaningless in a way that does you no good. You could claim none of that happened you were never in a room together, or you didn't force yourself on someone, or accuse her of being some sort of starfucker or damned near anything. Instead you say something that could also encompass "I grabbed her left boob while I was at it" or "that was when I was secretly replaced by a Skrull." Is there some sort of code I am missing here?
posted by phearlez at 11:51 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Both of my senators are already staunchly against the tax bill. Anything else we can do in blue states?? I've been under the impression that calling not-your-representatives is not useful.

nakedmolerats You can contact all of your friends/family that have GOP senators and encourage them to call. Make it easy for them. Provide phone numbers, scripts and encouragement. I've found that a little handholding has turning I-never-call-elected-officials people into I-regularly-call people.
posted by mcduff at 11:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Franken will resign, I think. It may take a while, but eventually he and the party will come around to the "math" that everyone here in the thread has already pointed out. Someone needs to be a Big Boy in the face of well-supported allegations and Franken is (sigh) capable of being the Big Boy, or at least that is the senatorial image he's created for himself. It all adds up to a resignation. People who take values seriously don't say "shit wish I hadn't supported those values now look what's happened", they take their medicine. It's the people with no values at all, of course, that by definition get away with anything, because no one expects anything of them. ("This is why politics has become a race to the bottom, game theoretically. Discuss.")
posted by sylvanshine at 11:53 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Why would you make a statement like this non-denial denial

I think it's an attempt to issue a denial without being perceived as dismissing the accuser and being accused, in turn, of disbelieving the accuser, silencing the accuser, or accusing the accuser of lying. Which is impossible to do, but I think the calculation is that it looks slightly less bad to use 'the code' than to say 'this didn't happen.'
posted by halation at 11:54 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Is there some sort of code I am missing here?

The way I read it is that Franken wants to dispute that what Tweeden says happened actually happened the way Tweeden reports, but that Franken (rightly) knows such a response is a complete non-starter and would cause a firestorm of massive proportions, so he came out with the tepid phrasing instead.
posted by Justinian at 11:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


> Myself, I like to imagine a near future where the "What if the replacement is a horrible regressive Republican" thing becomes less of a thinkable concern, regardless of the office in question. Not just because I don't want future Republicans to be so regressive (shh, we can all dream it), but because progressives have to start thinking about sexual misconduct/assault as a truly uncrossable line.

Canada's NDP, back in the mid-2000s when they just barely had double-digits representation in parliament, kicked out one of the members of their parliamentary caucus who failed to support the party's position in favor of gay marriage. This got them a lot of flack from people who thought that the proper role of a social democratic party was to focus on economic issues. By 2011 the NDP was the official opposition; if it weren't for the untimely death of party leader Jack Layton, they'd probably be in government right now.

Taking stands and drawing clear lines wins elections.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:56 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


Or what halation said.
posted by Justinian at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2017


If Franken really doesn't remember the groping (I don't know why you wouldn't, but for the sake for clarification), what should he say?
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:58 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


What If We Treated Gun Violence Like A Public Health Crisis? (NPR, Nov. 15, 2017)

Sad reminder that we can react swiftly to Zika and Ebola outbreaks, which claim far fewer lives than gun violence, but mass shootings only get "thoughts and prayers" and about $22 million a year on research into gun violence — a tiny fraction of what it spends on other major health threats. For comparison, it's about as much as is spent on studying drowning, which results in about a 10th as many deaths as guns.

Also, Dr. Georges Benjamin, the executive director of the American Public Health Association, has this to say:
"When a new disease, particularly an infectious disease, enters the community ... we have a mechanism to anticipate it, track it, get our arms around it," he says. "We do that when he have measles, mumps, chicken pox, zika. But firearm-related death and disability, we don't."

That kind of prior knowledge could lead to policies that reduce the toll of gun injuries without cutting off access to them.

"Firearms are a tool, and ... a consumer product. And unlike other consumer products, we're not working hard to make that consumer product safer," he says.
Emphasis mine. Another example of how logic and science could help without restricting access, but are blocked because Republicans are more about image and message than impact (See also: immigration policies, sex education, taxes and investments, etc., etc., etc...)
posted by filthy light thief at 11:58 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


> got here late, after hearing the Franken news, wondered what the reax on the Blue would be. now after reading a few hundred comments: it's really heartening to see basically zero "our team" or "question her motives" posts. the people here stand on their principles, and that's awesome. and judging by comments sections and news reports, it's a notable difference from the crowd that supports Roy Moore and Donald Trump. thanks Metafilter for bolstering my wavering faith in humanity.

I mean yes but also we shouldn't get too high on ourselves over that. Even freaking reddit (or at least, r/politics) passed this test.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:59 AM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


I don't think that "throw out everyone for whom we can pin down proof of sexual skeeviness" is a good plan - especially since the ones for whom we can find solid evidence are more likely to be basically honest; the ones willing to confess are going to be the ones who acknowledge the harms they've done and wish to do better in the future.

he doesn't remember it happening the way she remembers it happening.

He may remember that he kissed her "as a joke;" he may not remember that he put his tongue in her mouth because that wasn't important to him at the time. Or he may "remember" more cooperation than she actually gave him. He's not saying "I didn't do that;" he's saying that he didn't justify it to himself as "I assaulted this woman but that's okay because..."

I have much more tolerance for an apology that says "what I did was wrong; I know that now and wish I'd known it then; I will cooperate with an inquiry to decide if I should be punished for it; I will work to make amends to the ones I harmed and to prevent others from doing similar things in the future" a whole lot more than "I didn't do anything wrong; that was totally legal; it was all in fun; oh geeze guys that was so long ago I don't know why you're bringing it up."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:59 AM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


A Cynical But Obvious Point: If Al Franken Doesn't Resign, Roy Moore Will Definitely Win
I'll miss Franken, but he should resign. All the sexual creeps in Congress should face a reckoning and resign -- Democrats and Republicans. I'll lay down the marker now: They should all resign, even the Democrats who might be in seats that Republicans could pick up.

But if we're making calculations about impact, we should note that according to Minnesota law, the governor -- Democrat Mark Dayton -- would choose Franken's replacement, and a new election would be held in November 2018. Donald Trump is quite unpopular in Minnesota. In all likelihood, a Democrat would hold this seat.

Beyond that, if Franken stays, every Alabama Republican voter who's on the fence about Roy Moore receives a Get Out of Moral Quandary Free card. Hey, the lib harasser gets to stay, so hell yeah, I'm voting for Roy Moore.

I still think a Doug Jones victory in Alabama is a long shot, though people who are smarter than I am think it's possible. But it won't be possible if Franken hangs on. That's not the main reason he should go. But he should go.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:59 AM on November 16, 2017 [33 favorites]


That phrasing is right for a misinterpretation of something said, or something like that. "That wasn't my intention, but if you perceived it that way, I believe you and I'm sorry." It's not really a thing you can say for a factual issue. Did you or did you not put your tongue in my mouth without my permission?
posted by ctmf at 12:00 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Because, again, I think its pretty clear Franken wants to say "no, I didn't shove my tongue down her throat without her permission" but he knows he can't say that.
posted by Justinian at 12:02 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


I mean yes but also we shouldn't get too high on ourselves over that. Even freaking reddit (or at least, r/politics) passed this test.

And we didn't all pass; at least one person posted gross slut-shaming victim-blaming stuff that had to be deleted. So table the yay-us cake for now.
posted by phearlez at 12:02 PM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


Someone who has done something very gross but only apologizes upon getting caught doesn't care about the victims of their actions... they care about being in trouble.
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


If Franken really doesn't remember the groping (I don't know why you wouldn't, but for the sake for clarification), what should he say?

Sigh. He *does* remember the groping and even if he didn't, there's a picture. What he said it's he doesn't remember the kiss happening in the *way* she remembers. Classic he said / she said. What should he say? "I resign." The picture is damning enough.
posted by greermahoney at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


So table the yay-us cake for now.

I think this would be a better place with less self congratulation in general.
posted by bongo_x at 12:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]


My take, to mix a couple of football metaphors, is that he's punting to the Ethics Committee, hoping for a Hail Mary.

Franken heard McConnell call for the Ethics investigation. That gave him the out: He said, OK, great, I surrender, do the investigation -- knowing full well that odds are the committee slaps his wrists, possibly hard, but doesn't expel him from the Senate. And then he can say, hey, I submitted myself to the Senate's judgment, the judgment that Republicans called for, and accept the punishment.

Ambition's a powerful drug. He was just starting to hear and maybe believe the whispers of "Franken 2020" and it's hard to let that go. But that's done, as done as Biden was after the (now laughable) plagiarism case during the 1988 election. And maybe the Biden story gives him hopes of playing a long game. (It shouldn't. Any hope of higher office is gone.)
posted by martin q blank at 12:06 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Franken will never be a Presidential nominee now, nor even hold a leadership spot. Any hope he had of those is gone. Now it's just about whether he stays a Senator or not.
posted by Justinian at 12:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


If Franken really doesn't remember the groping (I don't know why you wouldn't, but for the sake for clarification), what should he say?

"My fellow Americans - I am deeply ashamed of the allegations raised against me. I admit that I did not recall my behavior towards Ms. Tweeden prior to her statement, but I cannot dispute the very clear photographic evidence of improper behavior on my part; moreover, I am doubly ashamed that it took her allegation to remind me that such an incident happened. Everyone's memory is imperfect, but any upright person ought never to forget about incidents such as this - for surely Ms. Tweeden has not forgotten, and her own memory of that incident has understandably and clearly caused her distress. And at the end of the day, even though I didn't remember it prior to this, it is still distress which I caused, and I need to atone for it."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:08 PM on November 16, 2017 [57 favorites]


Franken needs to resign. The office of Senator is bigger than the person. He needs to do what's right for everyone.
posted by lumnar at 12:08 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Biden didn't have a picture.

Now, if he wants to switch parties, that picture would be a free pass to the final three of any GOP primary, but somehow I doubt he does.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:08 PM on November 16, 2017


How he handled the Anita Hill investigation is a bigger problem for Biden and we have video of that.
posted by asteria at 12:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


We'll do the right thing and oust our bad guys regardless of the implications. Republicans will do the wrong thing and and do whatever it takes to maintain power. Republicans will use that power to destroy everything we believe is right.
posted by diogenes at 12:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


Because, again, I think its pretty clear Franken wants to say "no, I didn't shove my tongue down her throat without her permission" but he knows he can't say that.

Why can't he? It's not like people like this don't lie. That's what's just so weird to me about phrasing it this way. You get everyone noticing that you didn't make the full-voiced denial. You provide no plausible alternate explanation of events. Maybe you're trying for some coded chicks always think we want em but it's just biz amirite? thing but...

I should really not waste brain power trying to understand crappy people, I'm sure. I just think that were I in those shoes and innocent (of the kiss; obvs he's guilty of what was photographed) I'd be saying that forcing myself on someone isn't something I would do or would have done. If I was guilty and not going to own up why wouldn't I lie and say I'd never do such a thing? It just seems super weird to neither deny completely or claim misinterpretation and apologize for the kiss part as well.
posted by phearlez at 12:13 PM on November 16, 2017


tonycpsu: A Cynical But Obvious Point: If Al Franken Doesn't Resign, Roy Moore Will Definitely Win
...
I still think a Doug Jones victory in Alabama is a long shot, though people who are smarter than I am think it's possible.

NRSC poll: Moore trails Jones by 12 (Alex Isenstadt for Politico, Nov. 15, 2017)
Republican Roy Moore is trailing Democrat Doug Jones by 12 points in the Alabama special Senate election, according to a poll conducted by the National Republican Senatorial Committee after five women accused Moore of pursuing them as teenagers.

Jones led Moore 51 to 39 percent, according to the survey taken Sunday and Monday. The NRSC withdrew its support for Moore after the Washington Post published the first allegations against Moore on Thursday, and the group’s chairman, Sen. Cory Gardner (R-Colo.) said Moore should be expelled from the Senate if he wins on Dec. 12.

The poll shows a dramatic turn against Moore in Alabama: In early October, a committee poll had him leading by 16 points, and a survey early this month had him up by 9 points. Moore’s favorability numbers also tanked, from 49 percent in early October to 35 percent in the NRSC’s latest poll.
This tracks with some ideas from 538: How Roy Moore Could Lose Alabama’s Senate Race (Perry Bacon Jr. and Harry Enten, Nov. 13, 2017)
The average of five surveys conducted after the allegations became public has Moore leading Democrat Doug Jones by only 2 percentage points.
...
These first few polls conducted since the Moore news broke could represent just the beginning of his electoral deterioration. Polls taken immediately after Senate candidate Todd Akin used the phrase “legitimate rape” during the 2012 campaign underestimated his eventual slide in the polls compared to later surveys in the Missouri Senate race.
Emphasis mine.

People are awful, but I'd hope that Franken doesn't really change enough people's minds about Roy Moore's repeated and self-confirmed advances on teenage girls, in addition to his litany of other issues. 12 points is a heck of a swing to lose, and people are awful, but I'm not that cynical. Yet.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:14 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


Damn. Just damn.

runs away to check odds on 2020 Democratic candidates who are female.
So how about that Future President Harris, eh? I hear she's doing great things 1161+ days from now (only about 112 Scaramuccis!).
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:15 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


NRSC poll: Moore trails Jones by 12

Consensus on that poll is that it is grossly inaccurate and an attempt by the NRSC to force the GOP to boot Moore and run a Republican with no baggage in order to keep the seat.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:19 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


The Hill picks up the thing about Roger Stone knowing what was coming in advance. Everything is weird.

Why can't he?

Because "the women are lying!" is no longer an acceptable response to allegations, at least outside of the Republican electorate. Yes, that puts people in a difficult position if they are ever accused falsely. You know who are in a more difficult position? Women who are sexually harassed.
posted by Justinian at 12:20 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


“I certainly don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit in the same way, but I send my sincerest apologies to Leeann. As to the photo, it was clearly intended to be funny but wasn't. I shouldn't have done it.”

Given her account, there is zero chance she's the only one who's had this sort of experience with Franken. Whether others speak up or not, who knows, but she is not alone. No way.

And there is zero chance Franken hasn't been thinking about this shit ever since the news about Weinstein broke.

I'd put that at decidedly non-zero. I bet he hasn't really thought about it. He many not remember it well---it was just a "joke" to him at the time, nothing for him, in his mind, to have to think about again afterward.

Which really just firmly underlines how awful this conduct is. The perpetrators, like bullies, won't remember it as significant. The victims may well carry it with them forever. The abusers however, have the privilege of forgetting and minimizing.

That's one reason this shit is so pernicious, and why speaking out is so important. This is significant. It matters. These are not just minor, forgettable incidents. The attitude that this is "just a joke" or "not that big a deal" has to change if this is to ever stop.
posted by bonehead at 12:23 PM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


We'll do the right thing and oust our bad guys regardless of the implications.

After reading this article from Slate, I'm not optimistic, at least initially.
posted by miltthetank at 12:23 PM on November 16, 2017


Oh, come on. Even if Al resigns or not, Moore will win. Republicans don’t give a shit that their leaders assault women. Assaulting women is a huge part of their party platform.

I also hate the whole “Oh, he’s learned something since then” argument, because the man is 66 fucking years old and this picture was taken when he was 55. That’s about 35 years past the age when people start coming down hard on you for grabbing someone’s boobs (or pretending to) or taking compromising photos of them when they’re asleep. Just because he spent 30 years in an industry where putting women in compromising positions on film is a great way to become famous, that doesn’t excuse it.

Not even a fucking week ago, I was so psyched to hear him speak and that he signed my copy of his book. Now this! And it puts every Democrat in such an awful position! Gee, do I grit my teeth and tolerate shitty behavior against women in my representative because the other party openly wants to eradicate my rights and personal autonomy? So the choice is shitty attitudes sometimes or shitty attitudes permanently? Fucking fuck!
posted by Autumnheart at 12:24 PM on November 16, 2017 [32 favorites]


By the way, I don't blame you for not wanting to read anything Roger Stone says but note that he claims Franken is "the first" in a "long line" of Democrats to be accused. I really hope this doesn't turn into a partisan shitshow.
posted by Justinian at 12:24 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


I keep wanting to hear some variation on "I'm horrified to realize that I thought I was better than this and I am not better than this--I just justified my own behavior to myself and this problem is so deep that I didn't even see myself doing it. I'm part of the problem, I'm stepping back and encouraging that a woman be given the opportunities that I've had, and I'm going to spend my time now trying to support those who are better people than I have been." I want to see guys admitting that they thought they were decent people and they were wrong and that this means someone else should have their privileges because they don't turn out to deserve it. But I suspect even if a resignation happens, it won't involve Franken, or any other man, realizing that he's a shitty excuse for a human being and that he doesn't deserve to be one of the main characters of this story anymore.
posted by Sequence at 12:25 PM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]


Trump is expected to name Mick Mulvaney as acting director of the CFPB tomorrow.

So, the CFPB is dead.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


Oh, come on. Even if Al resigns or not, Moore will win. Republicans don’t give a shit that their leaders assault women. Assaulting women is a huge part of their party platform.

When we have the best chance in years to pick up a Democratic Senate seat in Alabama, when the polls are ties (or better!), and the Republican candidate's own party leaders are fleeing him like rats from a sinking ship

...I'm not sure the proper attitude is defeatism.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2017 [25 favorites]


I really hope this doesn't turn into a partisan shitshow.

Good people on the left have enforced the norm that women should be believed and not subject to scrutiny when they make sexual assault accusations. This is a norm that is good and I adhere to. It takes power away from men who commit sexual assault and gives it to the victims.

However, Republicans are evil. They will use and exploit this norm to fuck shit up. The proper response is to not dispense with the norm but to fight Republicans everywhere, but especially when they do this.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:31 PM on November 16, 2017 [31 favorites]


I really hope this doesn't turn into a partisan shitshow.

Narrator: It is going to turn into a partisan shitshow.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:31 PM on November 16, 2017 [58 favorites]


However, Republicans are evil. They will use and exploit this norm to fuck shit up. The proper response is to not dispense with the norm

I just want to be clear that I don't for a second think we should dispense with the norm. I'm simply worried, as you say, that Republicans are in the middle of weaponizing this norm against us as per Stone's statement and don't know what "fighting Republicans" would mean in that context.
posted by Justinian at 12:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Consensus on that poll is that it is grossly inaccurate and an attempt by the NRSC to force the GOP to boot Moore and run a Republican with no baggage in order to keep the seat.

Yes but inherent in that logic is that if Moore stays in they think (there's a serious chance) they'll lose the seat. Their motivation for announcing that to the world matters less to me than the fact of it.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


I really hope this doesn't turn into a partisan shitshow.

If I had to guess, I'd reckon that 80% of male senators have some sort of incident in their past that is the equivalent or worse than what Franken did (or at least what he's been accused of so far, who knows what else he's done). Democrats and Republicans. The Republicans fully intend to expose every Democrat they can. Democrats ethically don't have much choice but to accept this. They can choose to either allow the Democrats to take the full blame for sex scandals or they can do everything they can to expose every Republican they can.

It is going to be 100% a partisan shitshow.
posted by Bookhouse at 12:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [28 favorites]


there some sort of code I am missing here?

I read it as “I don’t remember it being unwelcome, I didn’t mean to make her feel bad”, but it’s part and parcel of the thing that tells men it will be NBD if they kiss or grope a woman because how could it be any harm, we’re all just kidding here!

Which is why he needs to do better.
posted by corb at 12:34 PM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


All the sexual creeps in Congress should face a reckoning and resign...

Not in the White House?
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:34 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Andrew Kaczynski, Chris Massie, and Nathan McDermott: Homeland Security's head of community outreach once said blacks turned cities to 'slums' with 'laziness, drug use and sexual promiscuity' (emphasis mine)
The head of faith-based and neighborhood partnerships at the Department of Homeland Security has said in the past that the black community is responsible for turning cities into "slums" and argued that Islam's only contribution to society was "oil and dead bodies," a CNN KFile review of his time as a radio host reveals.

Rev. Jamie Johnson was appointed in April by then-Secretary of Homeland Security John Kelly to lead the Center for Faith-Based & Neighborhood Partnerships at the department.

In radio appearances from 2008 to as recently as 2016, Johnson was critical of the black community and painted Islam as a violent, illegitimate religion.
ADULT IN THE ROOM
posted by zombieflanders at 12:38 PM on November 16, 2017 [44 favorites]


So how about that Future President Harris, eh?

i, for one, welcome our female overlords
posted by entropicamericana at 12:38 PM on November 16, 2017 [28 favorites]


"One might say that the proper thing to do is to only run women, but what is to stop them from being accused too?"

In case you want to know what this will look like in the hands of the unscrupulous, when I was on my local school board, I was routinely accused of giving blow jobs to local reporters for favorable coverage. After we fired a popular employee for some extremely serious misconduct involving children, he reported to DCFS that I was abusing my children and cops came to my house to investigate the allegation. It was awful. I'm enormously grateful I had due process rights and that an asshole seeking revenge wasn't able to derail my entire life with a phone call.

With women in positions of power, these kinds of accusations will absolutely be weaponized against them, but they'll be used as yet another tool for men to demean and intimidate women, to sexualize them, to mark them as incompetent, to undermine them. False accusations of sexual harassment against prominent women will be turned into a tool to sexually harass those same women, to turn them into sex objects in the mind of the public, to recount sexual fantasies about them on the news, to use their sexuality against them in non-consensual ways where the entire country is invited to speculate about how Senator Jane is in bed.

"Republicans are in the middle of weaponizing this norm against us as per Stone's statement and don't know what "fighting Republicans" would mean in that context."

A robust and impartial investigative body is going to be the only way forward, IMO. I think a party harassment ombudsman on the Dem side is a great idea, actually, and all campaigns and elected officials have to agree to the ombudsman's investigative authority to access campaign cash and party resources. Although there's also going to have to be a Congress-wide non-partisan investigative body with teeth, and one in every statehouse.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:39 PM on November 16, 2017 [113 favorites]


When we have the best chance in years to pick up a Democratic Senate seat in Alabama, when the polls are ties (or better!), and the Republican candidate's own party leaders are fleeing him like rats from a sinking ship

...I'm not sure the proper attitude is defeatism.

+1. If despair is a sin, defeatism is a mortal sin. Let's not get the air sucked out of the room before we have to. Resistance is not founded on throwing up our hands and saying, "welp, whatchagonnado?"

Throwing women under the bus is going to defeat us much more soundly than acknowledging what went wrong and how to make it better going forward. Women are the resistance! Women are the blue wave!

Seriously, this is a good thing, people! Women are stepping up and speaking out because they think they have a fighting chance at being believed! Democrats are not dismissing this as "well, boys will be boys!" Can we stop with the fear and trembling? If we can make our party a safer place for women, hooray!
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:40 PM on November 16, 2017 [45 favorites]


I have absolutely no doubt that a hell of a lot of Congressmen and Senators have sexual harassment skeletons in their closets, and that the MAD principle is part of what's kept people mum. That, and most politicians like 'em older than fourteen.

It's about the only way in which Trump's "swamp" metaphor fits, which is ironic since he's openly admitted to doing it himself repeatedly.
posted by delfin at 12:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Mod note: A few comments removed. Folks, let's try and avoid endlessly returning to a tug-of-war between over-the-top "men are all trash" stuff and people reflexively pushing back on that and instead just skip both and focus on specifics and developments. It's always annoying for basically all involved and it's always distracting from more substantive discussion about the non-generic, non-universal shit that has actually happened.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:44 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


It can be maddening to work out the precisely correct degree of public self-examination in these cases. It is for me, anyway.

It's frustrating that even words which indicate full self-awareness don't automatically orient the speaker's moral compass correctly. We all kind of assume those words have to do that, in the same way one might assume that Trump's presidency is "finished" if everyone his own partly agrees that he's an unstable embarrassment and says so to all passing reporters. But it's not that straightforward. Louis CK's pre-confession shtick could be summarized as "I'm a creep... and I know it!", a feminist equivalent of McCain having concerns. Blech.

Meanwhile, as I said in another thread, I don't think that adding credibility to women's claims is a weapon. It's just the loss of a shield.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 12:45 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


In re Moore, partisan shitshows, the tax bill, etc: I think it's important not to panic until we're actually in the wolf's mouth.

A year ago, many of us were sort of seriously wondering if it would be possible for Trump to declare martial law upon assuming office. I personally expected Black Lives Matter to be declared a terrorist organization and its leaders arrested. I expected that Chelsea Manning would be thrown back in jail, shortly to meet with an "accident" or "suicide attempt". We all expected that Obamacare would be gone immediately, possibly followed immediately by Medicare and Medicaid. I was not entirely confident that Hillary Clinton would not be summarily arrested.

And yet - awful as this damned year has been - those things have not happened. Obamacare is more popular than it was under Obama. People are more sympathetic to immigrants than they were under Obama. Frankly, I'm astonished at the traction that these sexual harassment allegations against powerful men are getting - I would never have expected them to trigger the consequences that they have. I think that deep cultural changes are happening in response to the corrupt shit-show in DC, and I think that has a lot of potential to pay off in 2018 and then really pay off in 2020 and beyond.

I'm not saying that things aren't bad, or that bad things aren't coming down the pike - I don't think that we're going to totally escape the tax bill, even though I still have high hopes that it will be a lot less terrible than currently proposed. But this year illustrates that events are not as predictable as we think. There is still hope. This is not the end.
posted by Frowner at 12:46 PM on November 16, 2017 [77 favorites]


I’m guessing the handful of auto-castration comments here are coming from a supportive place, but they’re distasteful for a couple reasons. You can be an ally without the performative self-loathing, however well intentioned.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 12:46 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


It is going to be 100% a partisan shitshow.

I am taking a long-awaited solo vacation starting tomorrow morning, involving some long train trips and many precious hours of solitude. I have 2 seasons of Detectorists downloaded from Netflix. I have a stack of gothic lesbian romances. I had been thinking, "Wow, I wonder if I can decouple myself from politics news for four days. Should I even try?"

Yeah, I'm going to go with, "Burn it all with holy, cleansing fire--I'm out." It will be a pleasure to not be continually triggered by the news every 4 hours.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:47 PM on November 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


Democrats ethically don't have much choice but to accept this. They can choose to either allow the Democrats to take the full blame for sex scandals or they can do everything they can to expose every Republican they can.

Well at least the Russian intelligence gatherers with good dirt and disinformation disruptors with bad information will sit on their hands and not throw gas on the fire.
posted by ctmf at 12:47 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Throwing women under the bus is going to defeat us much more soundly than acknowledging what went wrong and how to make it better going forward.

this is absolutely true. however, it is hard to be cheerful about it in the moment, even though it is ultimately a positive sign, because i don't think any of us will be surprised to see republicans taking advantage of this fact to buy themselves a little more time and a little extra media cover to continue fucking the world up as much as they can. that doesn't mean the cleaning doesn't have to be done. but it sucks real hard that there will likely be consequences that affect us all because a nonzero number of chucklefucks chose not to behave like decent humans.
posted by halation at 12:47 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Seriously, this is a good thing, people! Women are stepping up and speaking out because they think they have a fighting chance at being believed!

Similarly, who would’ve thought all those confederate statues would be coming down all over the place? In the midst of an attempted fascistic overthrow of American democracy, some amazing things are happening too.

You know how when you pop a pimple, it hurts like hell and then pus flies everywhere? Then there’s relief and healing?
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:48 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


1. Identify the creme de la creme of private investigative agencies
2. Kickstarter their funding to go after the skeletons of the entire political class and release the findings publicly
3. Ruin a whole bunch of creeps' days

Hmm does Chris Steele need the work?
posted by jason_steakums at 12:59 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


Well at least the Russian intelligence gatherers with good dirt and disinformation disruptors with bad information will sit on their hands and not throw gas on the fire.

Top trending hashtags on Russian influence networks are about Franken by 5 or 6 to 1 today. The next highest is "divorce", no idea what that is about. Whether or not Russian trolls talk about this has no bearing on the truth of the allegations obviously, but you are correct that they will try to throw gas on it.
posted by Justinian at 1:01 PM on November 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


I suspect the “divorce” reference is to the (discredited) claim that one of Moore’s victims is not credible because Moore adjudicated her divorce.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 1:03 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


First, it’s “shoo-in”, not “shoe-in”.


+1. If despair is a sin, defeatism is a mortal sin. Let's not get the air sucked out of the room before we have to. Resistance is not founded on throwing up our hands and saying, "welp, whatchagonnado?"

Secondly, I’m not engaging in defeatism, I’m acknowledging an obvious reality, which is that the Republican Party is not interested in the slightest in policing their own for sexual misconduct, or any other misconduct, and if the actual documented offenses haven’t been enough to make the Republican Party rethink their tactics, and they haven’t, then I see absolutely no reason whatsoever, in any universe, to expect that they will change their mind now that one more Republican has been accused.

I’ll be happy to eat cake on Election Day if a Dem wins, but really. I’ll thank you not to police my viewpoint. Al Franken is my senator, and it would behoove you to remember that Dayton isn’t running for governor in 2018, and this state elects crazy Republicans even more frequently than golden-hearted Democrats. My congressional representative is a crazy Republican, and he’s merely a mealy-mouthed corporate shill compared to his predecessor, Michele Bachmann! We escaped the dominance of the Tea Party by the skin of our teeth in 2012 and there is no reason to be complacent about remaining an example of working Democratic policy in 2018. I know full goddamn well how precarious a position in which Al’s downfall puts my state, and women, and the country, and the Democratic Party in Minnesota and maybe in Congress. You do not get to act like I’m being a Debbie Downer because I think Republicans gonna Republican for Moore’s seat.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:03 PM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


Woman who accused Franken says she accepts his apology (The Hill): "'The apology, sure I accept it, yes. People make mistakes and of course he knew he made a mistake,' Leeann Tweeden said. 'So yes I do accept that apology. There's no reason why I shouldn't accept his apology.'

"She said it's up to Congress to decide if it wants to have an ethics investigation into Franken's behavior, adding that she isn't calling for Franken to step down, unless more women come forward.

"'People make mistakes. I'm not calling for him to step down. That's not my place to say that.'"

So, let's see if there's another shoe to drop in this scandal.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


I've figured out my feelings on this:

U.S. Senator Al Franken MUST resign. Zero Tolerance. He's a good guy, but the world we want to live in doesn't tolerate that behavior. He has to LEAD BY EXAMPLE.
posted by mikelieman at 1:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


No one who commits or ever has committed sexual assault should be representing me in government. Full stop. I want all those fuckers carried out on a rail.

I am worried, scared even, of the inevitable backlash though. The same kind of energy that fought the first black President and spawned so much hate, bile, and violence will react to the patriarchy being overthrown. As soon as everyday folks get tired or annoyed with #MeToo they'll be vulnerable enough for the orange victimizer in chief to sell new MAGA2020 hats to.

Theres nothing to be done. Eliminating this toxic abuse is 100% necessary. But don't kid yourselves, there will be consequences.
posted by Glibpaxman at 1:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Chuck Grassley is killing the blue slip. Another "Senate courtesy" that apparently doesn't apply to Republicans.

NBC News, Trump and his family could save more than $1 billion under House tax bill. NBC had a tax expert evaluate the impact of the bill based on the first two pages of Trump's 2005 return and other knowledge about his finances. There's a lot of assumptions involved, but the analysis shows that it would save Trump $22 million personally, plus over a billion dollars in savings to his heirs thanks to the repeal of the estate tax.

WSJ, Pentagon Moves to Develop Banned Intermediate Missile. I'm really not clear how both us and Russia developing banned intermediate-range missiles gets us closer to our stated goal of having no banned missiles.
The U.S., accusing Russia of violating a Cold-War era arms treaty, has begun researching the development of a ground-based cruise missile banned under the pact to counter weapons that Washington believes Russia is fielding, according to U.S. officials.

The preliminary research in recent months by the U.S. military, previously undisclosed, is aimed at potentially reviving an arsenal of the prohibited ground-based, intermediate-range missiles, in the event Moscow continues violating the pact with new weapons, the officials said.

The U.S. doesn’t want to end the Cold War-era agreement, known as the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, or the INF, but rather bring Russia back into compliance. By beginning development of a missile banned under the treaty, Washington is hoping to show Moscow the kinds of new American weapons Russia’s armed forces will face if they don’t stop violating the INF.
posted by zachlipton at 1:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


As soon as everyday folks get tired or annoyed with #MeToo they'll be vulnerable enough for the orange victimizer in chief to sell new MAGA2020 hats to.

No kidding. At what point do people throw up their hands and say, “If we kicked out everyone who ever assaulted a woman, there wouldn’t be anyone left!” and instead the issue of sexual violence against women is “proven” to be too disruptive to address as a social issue. I feel like we’re about a week away from that.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:16 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


Also, Politico has a story on the Grassley/Feinstein letter. Jared's got some explaining to do: Kushner got emails about WikiLeaks, Russia in 2016, lawmakers say
“If, as you suggest, Mr. Kushner was unaware of, for example, any attempts at Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, then presumably there would be few communications concerning many of the persons identified,” the lawmakers wrote.

Grassley and Feinstein also alluded to documents they received from other witnesses on which Kushner was copied.

“Other parties have produced September 2016 email communications to Mr. Kushner concerning WikiLeaks, which Mr. Kushner then forwarded to another campaign official,” they wrote. “Such documents should have been produced...but were not.

“Likewise,” the letter continued, “other parties have produced documents concerning a ‘Russian backdoor overture and dinner invite’ which Mr. Kushner also forwarded. And still others have produced communications with Sergei Millian, copied to Mr. Kushner. Again, these do not appear in Mr. Kushner’s production despite being responsive to the second request. You also have not produced any phone records that we presume exist and would relate to Mr. Kushner’s communications regarding several requests.”
He's also refusing to hand over documents about his security clearance application, you know, just the one he had to keep redoing because he was leaving off hundreds of items.
posted by zachlipton at 1:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [39 favorites]


Meanwhile, the FCC has voted to further gut its media-ownership rules, overturning regulations dating to the ‘70s. This, I am sure, is fine. (previously)
posted by non canadian guy at 1:20 PM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


And continuing today's general shittiness: Keystone Pipeline leak spills at least 210,000 gallons of oil in South Dakota.
posted by Roommate at 1:26 PM on November 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


I will probably have my woman card revoked for my opinion, but here goes. Although I think Franken should resign, I am not convinced that he should do so immediately. I think he owes it to his voters to take their pulse and find out what they want. They voted for him and have been counting on him to represent their interests, particularly in these highly unusual and perilous times. An immediate resignation might jeopardize people's health and well-being severely in a way that they might not choose.

More accusations could follow and it would essentially be a fait accompli. But barring that, I think these are the options:

--He could announce not to seek another term after this one
--He could resign before June 29 and Gov Dayton would name an interim appointee until the 2018 election
--He could resign after June 29 and that would trigger an election for 2019
--He could try to weather it through and let voters decide in his next election
--Of course, the decision could be taken out of his hands by a dismissal in an ethics probe. Or he could face a censure, as Barney Frank did. (I was so angry at Barney Frank, yet he went on to do so much good, I am grateful he did not resign. )

See What it Franken resigns?

I'd favor Franken meeting with and polling his constituents and working with party leaders to effect the least disruptive transition, with the intention of upholding the best interests of the people who elected him. Reading comments, I am sure that many here think that the best interests of his constituents would be immediate resignation. Myself, I am not so sure. There is so much at stake right now.

I could see an ethics investigation as being a valuable process if it were an open process, but as I understand it, they are generally closed. I'd favor one that would deal with Franken and the broader issue of harassment in the senate. Ideally, some type of truth and reconciliation process that would encompass all of congress and other governmental entities, as well.

This might sound like brutal political calculus and admittedly it is. I'm terribly angry and disappointed with Franken, I had many hopes pinned on him going forward.
posted by madamjujujive at 1:30 PM on November 16, 2017 [108 favorites]


So, is Kushner's failure to disclose to the Senate Judiciary Committee a felony?
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:44 PM on November 16, 2017


So, is Kushner's failure to disclose to the Senate Judiciary Committee a felony?

I'll wait to see what Mueller thinks.
posted by mikelieman at 1:49 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


WaPo, Watchdog says Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke failed to properly document travel:
Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke has failed to keep complete records — and in some cases kept none at all — of his travel since taking office, the agency’s watchdog told department officials this week, saying that management of Zinke’s travel was “deficient” and lacked oversight.

A rare alert sent by Deputy Inspector General Mary Kendall to the secretary’s office Wednesday, obtained by The Washington Post, said her investigation into allegations of improper travel practices by Zinke has been stymied by “absent or incomplete documentation for several pertinent trips.”

Interior lawyers and ethics officials also have not shown evidence to investigators that they have been able to “distinguish between personal, political and official travel” or cost-analysis documents to justify his choice of military or charter flights, Kendall wrote.

The memo reveals that the inspector general is also scrutinizing the travel of Zinke’s wife, Lola, who often accompanied him on official trips. Kendall wrote that the department’s documentation was so lacking that investigators cannot determine “the full extent” of Lola Zinke’s travel and how it was paid for.
I have never worked for the federal government, and yet I somehow know the Federal Travel Regulations are a giant pile of rules and there's lots of paperwork involved in government travel. Why doesn't a cabinet secretary know this?

Oh, and the Senate snuck a new tax break for private jet management into their tax bill.
posted by zachlipton at 2:00 PM on November 16, 2017 [38 favorites]


Not to sell out my gender for political expedience, but I’d be satisfied with a censure.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:02 PM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Why doesn't a cabinet secretary know this?

Perhaps he believes there’s a different set of rules when he’s “in barracks” and his special flag is flying.
posted by leotrotsky at 2:03 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


At what point do people throw up their hands and say, “If we kicked out everyone who ever assaulted a woman, there wouldn’t be anyone left!” and instead the issue of sexual violence against women is “proven” to be too disruptive to address as a social issue.

I've already seen someone make that argument on Facebook. She also was arguing that there was something "different" about equating Franken's actions with Roy Moore and Anthony Weiner.

Have just asked her, "so you're saying that there is an acceptable degree of sexual assault?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:04 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Congressional Office of Compliance releases year-by-year breakdown of harassment settlements and awards. (Twitter link)
posted by rewil at 2:04 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


What the hell happened in FY2007? 25 settlements.

Note though that these are not all harassment settlements. They settle many types of employment claims, and some are for other parts of the Legislative Branch.
posted by zachlipton at 2:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Not to sell out my gender for political expedience, but I’d be satisfied with a censure.

They may end up going that route but I expect the Senate is reluctant to start censuring for things that took place well before someone was in the Senate. The Moore situation may force their hand, though, which would open the door. Besides the obvious "this dude is a child molester" that's one reason they really really don't want him to win the Senate seat.
posted by Justinian at 2:09 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


What the hell happened in 2002, too? Only 10 settlements, but nearly 4 mil paid out, same-ish as in 2007.
posted by creampuff at 2:09 PM on November 16, 2017


Russian backdoor overture and dinner invite

I love dinner theater! Is the Backdoor Overture Prokofiev or Shostakovich?
posted by condour75 at 2:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


“Other parties have produced September 2016 email communications to Mr. Kushner concerning WikiLeaks, which Mr. Kushner then forwarded to another campaign official,” they wrote. “Such documents should have been produced...but were not.

I get that this is Senate Intel, but Paddinton Page just dropped off a whole whomp of papers to Senate Judiciary this morning and i'm totally stoked that Burr and Warner may be asking for more stuff too after wading through the not-batshit crazy parts
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:20 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


I've been looking into past Senate censures and expulsions and I note that in 1907 Reed Smoot of Utah was brought up on charges of "Mormonism" which seems rude. Thankfully he was not expelled.

There have only been a handful of censures in Senate history so it seems unlikely to me that Franken will be censured. It's likely resignation or nothing. Or perhaps they come up with a new censure-lite motion.
posted by Justinian at 2:20 PM on November 16, 2017


@kylegriffin1 (MSNBC)
Ohio State Rep. Wes Goodman, who consistently touted his faith and conservative values, has abruptly resigned after being confronted with evidence of inappropriate conduct with another man inside his office.

Columbus Dispatch: ‘Inappropriate behavior’ with man in his office led to Ohio lawmaker’s ouster
posted by chris24 at 2:24 PM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]


Ugh, "selling out one's gender"? Is that like race treason but for gender?

Franken has to deal with this. There's a decent chance that'll cause collateral damage to his constituents' lives, but he'll have to live with that unless the fact his victim reportedly forgave him counts as enough a basis to believe there's no real justice served by punishing him too harshly now. But given how big this problem is in reality, not sure it's possible for any future good to come out of the situation. Punishing Franken isn't going to feel like a correction to their own attitudes to any misogynists on the right because, to them, Franken is already an "other."
posted by saulgoodman at 2:25 PM on November 16, 2017


Late to the Franken discussion, but I always thought Al Franken was not the best choice for Democratic Party Savior because I'm old enough to remember the beginnings of Saturday Night Live (I was in college in '75 when it debuted), watched it regularly (I had not much else happening on Saturday nights) and remember with mild shame some of the "Politically Incorrect" comedy when he was a writer/secondary performer. If there's a database of who-wrote-what on that show, it would not likely be reflect well on him. And if he never sexually harassed women on SNL, it's because he was standing in line behind Bill Murray and several others (the leading Not Ready For Prime Time Players had first dibs).

Years later, when his umpteenth re-invention was "the Left Wing Rush Limbaugh" when Rushbo was doing more intentional comedy on his radio show, I thought it was a great act... but still an act. It never allowed him to last while the radio medium was in its early death throes, but it sold books and got him elected in Minnesota (though just barely the first time). It's more a study of how sadly pathetic the Senate has become that his long-running sense of showmanship and willingness to do research is playing so well (such as his popular but objectively criticized "Facebook ads paid for in rubles" soundbite).

I think his status has a lot to do with Democrats and liberals reacting to Trump and looking for a "celebrity long before he got into politics but an allaround GOOD person", which considering the nature of celebrity is unlikely to be found in my lifetime. There are some women in the Senate and Governorships who look good for 2020, including Franken's Minnesota colleague Amy Klobuchar, and California's Kamala Harris, who looks on the same upward arc as Obama was in the years before he became President.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:26 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


I've been looking into past Senate censures and expulsions and I note that in 1907 Reed Smoot of Utah was brought up on charges of "Mormonism" which seems rude.

Hey, they’re trying to put Nephitic Law into the courts! They force their women into sensible casual wear!
posted by leotrotsky at 2:28 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


@StevenTDennis: New: Susan Collins tells me she talked to Enzi about it and is "quite confident that will be taken care of" re: Medicare cuts etc. So...

I don't really understand what that means, because you can't just magically "take care of" PAYGO, but don't look for Sen. Collins to save us.
posted by zachlipton at 2:30 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


On the bright side, we haven't heard boo about Donna Brazile in days!
posted by HotToddy at 2:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


I think his status has a lot to do with Democrats and liberals reacting to Trump and looking for a "celebrity long before he got into politics but an allaround GOOD person", which considering the nature of celebrity is unlikely to be found in my lifetime.

If that is indeed what dems want, has Lin-Manuel Miranda been a celebrity for long enough yet? I'd be shocked to hear of skeletons in his closet omg please knock on wood
posted by mosst at 2:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


There have only been a handful of censures in Senate history so it seems unlikely to me that Franken will be censured.

I'd like to see the Democrats and Franken himself not only accept but push censure, in order to establish a new baseline for punishment: censure for admitted and apologized-for harassment, where the victim accepts the apology.

Anything worse would then default to heavier penalties, from losing committee assignments to expulsion.

There needs to be a much-heightened penalty for these perpetrators who deny that anything happened, including Roy Moore (but also Trump, Arnold Schwarznegger, etc.) If nothing else, a finding that harassment did happen means that they lied to their colleagues under oath, and that alone should be cause for expulsion.
posted by msalt at 2:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


The two Democratic senators from my home state (WA) have made statements re Franken:

Sen. Patty Murray: “This is unacceptable behavior and extremely disappointing. I am glad Al came out and apologized, but that doesn’t reverse what he’s done or end the matter.”

Sen. Maria Cantwell: “Treating all women with dignity is of paramount importance. These actions are disturbing. I support an ethics committee investigation into this matter.”

If Franken won’t resign immediately, he could at least announce a plan to retire at the end of his term. Please, let someone better represent the party in the next election. Don’t ask voters to vote for misogynists or gropers.
posted by mbrubeck at 2:46 PM on November 16, 2017 [15 favorites]


I'd like to see the Democrats and Franken himself not only accept but push censure, in order to establish a new baseline for punishment: censure for admitted and apologized-for harassment, where the victim accepts the apology.

That's a good idea actually! Though it retains the problem that there is no precedent for taking action based on a Senators behavior before taking office or being a nominee. So it would be double-precedent-setting. A very big deal.
posted by Justinian at 2:48 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


The potus45 spinoff thread needs a spinoff thread where we can talk about potus45.
posted by diogenes at 2:50 PM on November 16, 2017 [33 favorites]


I think the potus45 tag is just shorthand now for 'the ongoing fascist-idiotic shitfest'
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:53 PM on November 16, 2017 [31 favorites]


I think the potus45 tag is just shorthand now for 'the ongoing fascist-idiotic shitfest'

Usually that's true, but the current conversation doesn't even fit into that larger bucket.
posted by diogenes at 2:57 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


I mean, it's pretty clear to me what Franken means by "remembering it differently." He probably remembers that she liked having his tongue down her throat and was pushing him away "playfully" as a joke. He probably genuinely thought she was into it, because men assume that kind of thing as a default. He's not denying he did it, he's saying he didn't think of it as assault because I'm sure he didn't.

"Believe women" shouldn't only apply to accusations of wrongdoing. It should also be a rule for men to follow when women tell them they don't like something. When she says something isn't ok, when she says no, when she acts offended, BELIEVE HER. It's not playing hard to get, it's not all a joke, she's not overreacting. There are a lot of men out there who think some interactions they were involved in were consensual when the women involved count it as assault, to a great extent because they refuse to take what the woman expresses as truth.
posted by threeturtles at 2:57 PM on November 16, 2017 [47 favorites]


Mental Wimp, there was literally just a big long FPP thread about Clinton, so it might be worth checking that out instead of doing that conversation here.
posted by halation at 3:04 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


How many believe that Bill Clinton should have resigned over his behavior with women?

When we're done with that, we can talk about Ted Kennedy. And once we've got that wrapped up, let's move onto JFK.
posted by diogenes at 3:04 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


In case you needed a reminder that the world isn't all shit: Pope Francis was given a special edition Lamborghini Huracan, which already sells for around $200,000. But he'll auction it off, and to make it more special, he signed it. The proceeds will be going to three charities:

- Pope John XXIII Community Association, which advocates and networks to fight human trafficking by counseling prostitutes on the streets and setting up hostels to house them; the organization told CNN it has freed more than 7,000 women from prostitution since launching its intervention program in 1989.

- establishing a new refuge for victims of human trafficking called the "Pope Francis home."

- missionary and development work in Africa and to help rebuild homes and churches on the towns of the Nineveh Plains in Iraq. ISIS had forced Christians to flee the area.

Papal hand-me-downs always go for big bucks. In 2014, the Pope had a Harley-Davidson auctioned off for charity. The motorcycle sold for $284,000, more than 10 times its normal sales price. A Harley motorcycle jacket signed by Francis sold for nearly $68,000.

(CNN, Nov. 16, 2017)
posted by filthy light thief at 3:04 PM on November 16, 2017 [38 favorites]


Have just asked her, "so you're saying that there is an acceptable degree of sexual assault?"

We want to live in a world where misogyny and racism is intolerable. We start with ZERO tolerance for anything non-consensual.

If you're not sure you have consent to grope someone, YOU DO NOT HAVE CONSENT.

This ain't fucking rocket surgery
posted by mikelieman at 3:04 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


My sincere apologies. I wasn't on that thread. I withdraw my question.
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:05 PM on November 16, 2017


When you're done with that can we organize some PSAs recognizing that Caligula was a piece of bad historical fiction and not an aspirational template for governance?
posted by mce at 3:06 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Al Franken will probably become President now, right? Is that how things work?
posted by beatThedealer at 3:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


I'm just a Canuck so please - a little grace for my ignorance of your shining example of democracy but recent evidence suggests that one needs to be offensive and incompetent to be elected to that office
posted by mce at 3:10 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Mod note: Folks there's a whole thread to talk about Bill Clinton, please take that there.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


And continuing today's general shittiness: Keystone Pipeline leak spills at least 210,000 gallons of oil in South Dakota.

Obligatory:

So sad that Obama rejected Keystone Pipeline. Thousands of jobs, good for the environment, no downside!
11:47 AM - 6 Nov 2015

If I am elected President I will immediately approve the Keystone XL pipeline. No impact on environment & lots of jobs for U.S.
1:39 PM - 18 Aug 2015
posted by peeedro at 3:12 PM on November 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


The fact that Roger "the visage of Nixon is branded upon him" Stone has something to do with this at all, to me, suggests that an investigation is absolutely necessary before any action against or by Franken is taken.
Further muddying the waters is the fact that Brian Buetler's warning that the "believe women" moment was about to be weaponized is still ringing in my ears:
--in a way that exploits both the beneficence of the “believe women” campaign, and the even-handedness of the mainstream media. It is a collision we as a political culture are not equipped to handle, the consequences of which are almost too awful to contemplate.

Imagine it’s September or October 2020, and out of nowhere multiple women accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of sexual abuse, but instead of surfacing in a meticulously sourced story in a news outlet with a healthy tradition of careful reporting, it runs in a blind item on Breitbart.com. Or imagine such a story about a current Democratic candidate or leader landed in such an outlet tomorrow.

Or day after tomorrow, as it turned out.
Stone would like nothing better than to push democrats into a toxic cycle of recrimination and repudiation. Stone very stratergyically presaged this story, implying his own involvement. I see that as this little ratfucker's absolutely brilliant way to create further schisms of doubt between people on the left that are either more or less willing to accept Franken's accuser's word at face value and instead call it a rightwing hitjob.
Basically, I think the only way to win is to be able to believe that both the allegations and the hitjob are simultaneously true.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 3:13 PM on November 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


Note that this is the pre-existing Keystone, not the XL extension that was recently approved by Trump.

Scarily though, this most recent spill is in Marshall county Mich., the same county that had the Kalamazoo River Spill in 2010 that took 4-5 years to get to "finished".
posted by bonehead at 3:15 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Well, shit. Today is that day when [I can't believe it has come to this] Cory Gardner speaks for me. About Moore last week, he said, "he does not meet the ethical and moral requirements of the United States Senate," and this is the case for Franken as well.

As I told Al via email just now, I have been a supporter and greatly appreciate his service, but he needs to resign. Atonement and self-improvement must begin with accepting responsibility and undergoing consequences commensurate with the destructiveness of one's choices. That was NOT innocuous behavior; it was vengeful and hateful and hostile and humiliating and objectifying, and preying on an unconscious person is a fundamental betrayal of basic human decency -- that we don't harm defenseless people! Possibly the only more horrific thing than waking up to discover someone is assaulting you (which I've experienced) is waking up to, eventually, discover that someone assaulted you or even just mimed assaulting you -- and you might never have known except they're passing around pictures and giggling over it. It just negates your sense of agency. It's just another of the million jillion reminders we get every single. fucking. day. to never relax, never trust anyone, never let our guard down. Never take a goddamn ten-minute catnap unless you're alone in a locked room! Leeann Tweeden gets to be painfully aware every day for the rest of her life that the only thing that prevented her from being molested or raped, the ONLY thing, is that Al Franken didn't have a whim to do so right at that particular moment. The picture essentially says, "I could do anything I want to her, and she can't stop me. She's just a thing."

I'm sad that this has let down folks who considered Franken "one of the good people," but people who have been in Tweeden's position don't have the luxury of assuming or trusting that anyone is "good people," necessarily, at least not until they've spent a long time earning that trust. Because Al Franken and others like him steal that from them.

Yes, if this turns into a whole messy mass housecleaning that Republicans inevitably exploit for their own gain, that will be unpleasant. But there was a super-easy way to avoid it: generations of mostly-male (and some non-male) politicians could simply have refrained from acting like fucking savages.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:17 PM on November 16, 2017 [28 favorites]


I'd like to see the Democrats and Franken himself not only accept but push censure, in order to establish a new baseline for punishment: censure for admitted and apologized-for harassment, where the victim accepts the apology.

Sadly I think that’d be likely to produce a lot of people pressuring victims into “accepting” apologies, because we live in a world of shit.
posted by corb at 3:21 PM on November 16, 2017 [20 favorites]


Scarily though, it's in Marshall county Mich.

Nope. Marshall Co., SD.
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:26 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


InfoWars also predicted this before it was public. So Cold Lurkey's link looks prescient.
posted by Justinian at 3:28 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Yeah, SD not MI. sorry. Flashbacks I guess.
posted by bonehead at 3:29 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


The reality is there is no good outcome here. The only "good" scenario would be for Franken to never have groped anyone. Since that's impossible, we move into the world of least bad outcomes. Franken didn't grope her any less if Stone was behind (or privy to) the timing of the release of the story.

We have bigger problems to face right now and Franken is going to be a distraction . He resigns (and he should resign) and that distraction goes away and we can get back to getting low information voters focused on everything awful the Republicans are doing. When they bust out the "both sides do it" argument, we counter with the "yeah, but our sides holds our people accountable when they do it. What does your side do?"
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:30 PM on November 16, 2017 [19 favorites]


I'm not sure if this has been mentioned upthread. There are some logistical, keep-the-seat-blue reasons that if Al Franken is going to resign, he should do it sooner rather than later.

- In Minnesota, the Governor appoints a new Senator to fill out the term. Our Governor is Dayton, a Democrat who is not seeking re-election due to health issues, for the most part.

- Although Minnesota is generally a blue state with some big red blotches, we HAVE had Republican Governors in the past. Hell, we even elected Jesse Ventura on the Reform ticket. Although I have high hopes that we'll get another D in the Governors office, I'd act out of caution and make sure that Dayton was the one appointing the successor.

- Minnesota is chock-full of awesome Democrats on the rise. Dayton will have a good batch of people to choose from. If he chooses Ellison to step up, the fifth district will overwhelmingly replace him with another Democrat. I think that Keith Ellison is doing great things in the House but if he wants a shot at the senate, I wouldn't argue.

I can't believe I'm even writing this out. I love my senators. I was just bragging to a friend that I'm one of the lucky few people who can honestly say I love my representatives - Amy Klobuchar, Al Franken, and Keith Ellison. I love that they fight for the people. I dig the fact that I am represented by a Christian woman, a Jewish man, and a Muslim man. I think they do great things and I'm proud that my home state is being represented by awesome people.

But now I'm confused, sad, and heartbroken. Oh Al. I'm so disappointed in you. I'm angry, too, but mostly disappointed.
posted by Elly Vortex at 3:30 PM on November 16, 2017 [41 favorites]


Tucker Higgins, CNBC: Russian ambassador says he won't name all the Trump officials he's met with because 'the list is so long'

"First, I'm never going to do that," he said. "And second, the list is so long that I'm not going to be able to go through it in 20 minutes."

Kislyak made the remarks in a sprawling interview with Russia-1, a popular state-owned Russian television channel. In the interview, which a Russian media expert said resembled "late night American television," he also joked about American investigations into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, called U.S. President Donald Trump "witty," and said that U.S.-Russian relations were worse than at any point since the end of the Cold War.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


A team from Rolling Stone, The Investigative Fund, and Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting spent the past six months searching through endless 8chan posts and knocking doors to dig into the history of Pizzagate from its origins to an armed man firing his gun in a crowded pizzeria: Anatomy of a Fake News Scandal.

Come for the line "She threatened to report me to both the ACLU and Best Buy's Geek Squad," stay for the sheer number of people who spread this crap, from Trump campaign figures to InfoWars to Russian bots to Turkish media.
posted by zachlipton at 3:58 PM on November 16, 2017 [27 favorites]


> I can tell you that @POTUS is LYING.

Well, duh. His lips are moving.
posted by theora55 at 4:00 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Nope. Marshall Co., SD.

Soooo that's where my extended family hails from, where I visit almost every year, where I spent summers growing up, where a lot of family lives and works and owns farmland. My great uncle was a state senator from there, a Democrat, because this county goes blue a lot - old Farmers Union roots. And significant sections of the county have been wetlands since the flood of '93, so if this spill was in the wet areas it will destroy bird habitat and spread across the water, and if was in drier areas that's even less farming and pasture land. It's some of the most amazing soil you'll find for growing things, or at least it was. My grandfather helped get their rural water system put in place, this will surely have awful impacts on that. Super cool. Preparing to have my heart broken a bit when I visit for Christmas.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:06 PM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]


"I don't think he's saying he doesn't remember the rehearsal. He's saying, he doesn't remember it happening the way she remembers it happening."

I find this so weird in phrasing no matter what. Why would you make a statement like this non-denial denial, whether it happened exactly as described or completely differently or not at all? "I remember it differently" is effectively meaningless and is meaningless in a way that does you no good.

are you guys kidding? "that's not how I remember it" in place of a denial means "as I remember it, she was into it." this isn't even a question, let alone a mystery. he wasn't saying he didn't remember if he kissed her or not. he wasn't saying he affirmatively remembered not forcing a kiss on her. he was saying that in his memory, a good time was had by all. or all who mattered. this is not complex code and I hope it will be his downfall, because he talks like a guy who is thinking that we all have the same understanding of what phrases like this mean. that is how men of his approximate generation think you behave like a gentleman.

and unfortunately for him, those of us who have heard those phrases before do know what they mean.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:17 PM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


A libelous claim against an independent pizzaria? Sounds like something from Papa John Schnatter himself.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:20 PM on November 16, 2017


Homeland Security's head of community outreach once said blacks turned cities to 'slums' with 'laziness, drug use and sexual promiscuity'

That was fast, Republican appointee resigns from the DHS after past comments about blacks, Muslims come to light:
[Rev. Jamie Johnson's] resignation came swiftly after CNN published the comments on Thursday afternoon, along with the audio of the shows it unearthed.

“His comments made prior to joining the Department of Homeland Security clearly do not reflect the values of DHS and the administration,” said a Tyler Q. Houlton, the acting press secretary of the DHS in a statement announcing the resignation.
posted by peeedro at 4:29 PM on November 16, 2017 [36 favorites]


corb: Sadly I think that’d be likely to produce a lot of people pressuring victims into “accepting” apologies, because we live in a world of shit.

True, though I'm sure that also already happens. The difference is that the perpetrator still needs to apologize, which of course means admitting that something happened. None of the Republicans accused from Trump to Schwarzenegger to Pres. H.W. Bush to Roy Moore have done so.
posted by msalt at 4:41 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


FWIW the White House spin on the tax hikes for everyone making under $75k is as predicted. The White House Guy (sorry didn't catch his name) was on CNN saying that those increases weren't real because the tax rates had to sunset for procedural reasons (read: so the deficit doesnt explode) but they would be extended. He called it "part of the normal legislative process."
posted by Justinian at 4:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Dem GAIN for mayor of Albuquerque, NM.

Oh yeah. Turns out I'm the new mayor of Albuquerque. Did not see that coming.
posted by scalefree at 4:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]


The difference is that the perpetrator still needs to apologize, which of course means admitting that something happened.

This is why I'm not sure, from a purely practical standpoint, we want to have "resignation or expulsion" be the single, only remedy regardless of whether an action is part of a pattern, the facts of the action, or whether the accused admits what happened and apologizes. If expulsion or resignation is the result no matter what, the incentive is to deny, deny, deny, they are lying, deny, deny because it's the only way you might survive with your job. It incentivizes exactly what we don't want to happen, which is reacting like Trump and Moore.
posted by Justinian at 4:44 PM on November 16, 2017 [23 favorites]


To put it another way, if you lose your job even if there was no pattern (this is still to be determined with Franken), you apologize, and the accuser forgives you... but you become President if you call them all liars and threaten to sue... guess what's gonna happen.
posted by Justinian at 4:46 PM on November 16, 2017 [19 favorites]


Not even a fucking week ago, I was so psyched to hear him speak and that he signed my copy of his book.

Were I in this situation, I'd be tempted to film it burning, with the autograph visible, to show exactly what the autograph of a sexual predator is worth.
posted by acb at 4:52 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


NYT op-ed, Erin Rousseau, The House Just Voted to Bankrupt Graduate Students
I’m a graduate student at M.I.T., where I study the neurological basis of mental health disorders. My peers and I work between 40 and 80 hours a week as classroom teachers and laboratory researchers, and in return, our universities provide us with a tuition waiver for school. For M.I.T. students, this waiver keeps us from having to pay a bill of about $50,000 every year — a staggering amount, but one that is similar to the fees at many other colleges and universities. No money from the tuition waivers actually ends up in our pockets, so under Section 117(d)(5), it isn’t counted as taxable income.

But under the House’s tax bill, our waivers will be taxed. This means that M.I.T. graduate students would be responsible for paying taxes on a $80,000 annual salary, when we actually earn $33,000 a year. That’s an increase of our tax burden by at least $10,000 annually.
posted by zachlipton at 4:53 PM on November 16, 2017 [61 favorites]


What actually happens to the American educational system if this thing passes? There doesn't seem to be complete panic about it, but it seems to me that it's going to be hard to keep the whole thing going without graduate student TAs, who aren't going to be able to afford grad school if they have to pay taxes on their tuition waivers.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:56 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Soooo that's where my extended family hails from, where I visit almost every year, where I spent summers growing up, where a lot of family lives and works and owns farmland. My great uncle was a state senator from there, a Democrat, because this county goes blue a lot - old Farmers Union roots. And significant sections of the county have been wetlands since the flood of '93, so if this spill was in the wet areas it will destroy bird habitat and spread across the water, and if was in drier areas that's even less farming and pasture land. It's some of the most amazing soil you'll find for growing things, or at least it was. My grandfather helped get their rural water system put in place, this will surely have awful impacts on that. Super cool. Preparing to have my heart broken a bit when I visit for Christmas.

I grew up in Brown county, adjacent to Marshall. My family still lives there. From what I've been able to tell, it was on the eastern side of the county and thus in the wet and marshy part, and also well within the watershed of the James River, a long, slow and wide river/wetland system that flows into the Missouri and is much of the eastern part of the state's watershed. It's slow and seeps into the groundwater that people drink and water crops with. The James is a boring but vital river. I grew up hunting and fishing and playing in and loving the Jim river and the wetlands around it, and all the birds (Bald Eagles!) and bullheads it feeds. I'm horrified to imagine how badly this will be handled and how much of an area it's going to effect. It's already a very delicate system with all the farming around it.

And you're also super correct, my family owns a farm in a different part of the state and the soil up there is basically legendarily amazing farmland, and grumbling about the yields and prices 'farmers up 'round Britton' are getting is a harvest time tradition. I'll be in the area again in about a month, I'm curious to go see what is happening for clean-up then. My assumption is basically nothing. This isn't the first spill like this, and they do take their sweet time with it, and the only excuse is that they don't actually know how to clean these up, not even as well as surface spills on land or water.

Additionally, when they say detected, I'm almost certain they mean 'informed', because much larger spills like this have been routinely missed and only reported by the landowner when it became a massive and obvious issue. In rural farmland, that's pretty much the only oversight, and there aren't enough people covering enough land to possibly make it work.
posted by neonrev at 4:56 PM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


"are you guys kidding? "that's not how I remember it" in place of a denial means "as I remember it, she was into it.""

Bullshit. People are free to read whatever they like into it - after all, doing that is what got the US to the point where it's got a Russian-puppet President and an army of nutbags and trolls defending him - but a blanket statement like that?

I repeat, bullshit.

"Sometimes", as Freud probably didn't say, "a cigar is just a cigar"…
posted by Pinback at 5:09 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


The tone had been so constructive, too, even on such a charged topic. Come on Pinback, we can do better!
posted by Justinian at 5:13 PM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


Were I in this situation, I'd be tempted to film it burning, with the autograph visible, to show exactly what the autograph of a sexual predator is worth.

My HOA forbids the use of fire pits on the premises

Besides, if I’m gonna get rid of it, I may as well sell it on EBay and recoup some of the $30 I spent on the book.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:14 PM on November 16, 2017


I agree that resignation might seem too extreme for Franken in normal circumstances. In normal circumstances, penance and contrition that seemed genuine, along with a bit of a investigation to ensure it's not a pattern of behavior, would be enough, and he'd have to deal with his sins at the ballot box. But shit done changed, and everything right now is so fucking crucially important and critical that we have to make the very best steps at every juncture and him not resigning is essentially going to give carte blanche to whatever terribleness is going to come out of the right. We have to be angels and saints to keep them from being pure and unadulterated devils right now.
posted by dis_integration at 5:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Also: it's cool if he wants to delay his resignation for after the new year so he can take some vital votes on the tax bill. Announcing a planned resignation is enough.
posted by dis_integration at 5:19 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Special Counsel Mueller Issued Subpoena for Russia-Related Documents From Trump Campaign Officials (WSJ)
posted by Barack Spinoza at 5:20 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


(Non-WSJ article)
posted by Barack Spinoza at 5:23 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


McCain watch. He's now saying this process isn't regular order:
Sen. John McCain: He voted against the health care bill because it didn't go through a normal process. He's not happy with how things are going with the tax bill. "I just picked up the newspaper today and they've made a huge change. Every day there seems to be – no, it's not" regular order, he said.

"I can't comment on every day's activities...But I lean toward the tax cuts."
On whether the tax bill can get back on track: "I have no idea, but I'm insisting on regular order."
It's not much, but it's something.
posted by zachlipton at 5:24 PM on November 16, 2017 [19 favorites]


I'd expect some grad programs will cover the new taxes by either lowering graduate student tuition (good), or raising grad student wages (mediocre), but obviously plenty will simply expect their grad students to take on debt (bad), or take a middle road where they make the salary look larger, but the students take home less. Almost overnight those will become the good, mediocre, and bad grad programs, respectively, dramatically weakening many graduate programs at many state schools.

If you're a tech recruiter, then you should imho start targeting graduate students at state universities heavily, especially for entry level jobs involving writing or mathematics, ala machine learning.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:28 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


If you're a tech recruiter, then you should imho start targeting graduate students at state universities heavily, especially for entry level jobs involving writing or mathematics, ala machine learning.

Remember when the French president invited American scientists over to France? He actually also invited engineers.

MIT started as a model of a French polytechnic college. Now it's their turn.

Grenoble is rapidly becoming the next Cambridge, MA. Trump and Macron are completing the process.
posted by ocschwar at 5:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


McCain would be a huge no. He's the one I consider most likely to flip to yes from the Health Care votes from C, M, and Mc.
posted by Justinian at 5:36 PM on November 16, 2017


lol no one is raising graduate student wages, that i can tell you

What actually happens to the American educational system if this thing passes?

there are probably enough unemployed and underemployed PhDs and ABDs in circulation and in the pipeline to keep things running, at least for a few years. this will vary from field to field, and will also depend upon the broader economy. some programs may have to raise their offered adjunct salaries by a few hundred bucks a semester. but in a lot of disciplines, there's a good number of elsewhere-unemployable starvelings waiting in reserve, enough to last through the next election cycle, anyhow.
posted by halation at 5:36 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


Special Counsel Mueller Issued Subpoena for Russia-Related Documents From Trump Campaign Officials

Where is this likely to land on a scale from "Got any Russia docs?" "Go fish." to "Please turn over Document X written by M. M_______ on July 1, 2016"?
posted by kirkaracha at 5:37 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


What the hell happened in FY2007? 25 settlements.

To answer my own question, there was an Architect of the Capitol settlement related to "serious health and safety hazards" in the U.S. Capitol Power Plant utility tunnels. Again, those stats include more than just sexual harassment and Congress, making them really pretty meaningless.
posted by zachlipton at 5:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


I think his status has a lot to do with Democrats and liberals reacting to Trump and looking for a "celebrity long before he got into politics but an allaround GOOD person", which considering the nature of celebrity is unlikely to be found in my lifetime.

Would that Jerry Springer had followed through with a Senate run in 2000 or 2004.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:50 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


It’s like they looked at America’s two halves: its bright half, its embodiment of enlightenment ideals, its optimism, its hopeful progress in fits and starts despite its flaws; and the other foul half that is its flaws, its fear, its greed, its spite, its racism and its sexism and they said we choose the foul.

Despair is a sin; our America will win out, but it’s painful to look at what they are building in our name.
posted by notyou at 5:54 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Kate Harding:
Democracy 2017: I am sincerely arguing that we should not force a Democrat to resign for sexually abusing a woman, because I know Republicans never will, and that once the first Democrat goes, R's next move is finding shady Ds from states with R governors.
(...)
Many of the people currently standing between us and straight up Gilead have probably done shitty, even criminal things to women. This is the ugly reality.
posted by non canadian guy at 5:54 PM on November 16, 2017 [36 favorites]


My friend Katherine Cross has this spot-on take on why Franken needs to go ASAP, whataboutism be damned. It's not public but I'm re-posting the words here with permission.

I'm already seeing, from some liberal feminists, rationalisations and justifications for letting Al Franken off the hook. If we allow Republicans to knock off liberal male politicians with "skeletons in their closet," we pave the way for worse men who will legislate against all of us more openly. In the words of Kate Harding, sometimes an abusive liberal man is "all that stands between us and Gilead."

This year has not been kind to idealism, I will freely admit. But I will be damned before I cheerfully embrace this moral race to the bottom. I refuse to believe our choice is between abusers and worse-abusers.

We can say, as some already have, that what Franken did was--on a moral scale--nowhere near as terrible as the crimes of Roy Moore, Bill O'Reilly, or Harvey Weinstein. Based on what we know so far, that seems true. But what he did was horrifying nonetheless, and displayed a callous disregard for women's humanity. Are we really going to line up to defend that?

Instead of thinking "now more than ever, we need to elect women to these posts," your thought is "let's defend *our* sexual predators because the other lot's are worse"? I give wide latitude to the fact that we have to make difficult compromises with patriarchy and white supremacy in order to live. I get that, and I will defend anyone from attack by privileged purists who have never had to make a difficult choice in their comfortable lives. But there's a difference between being forced to make such a compromise in the darkness of oppression, and openly throwing yourself at it from a position of privilege.

It's this simple:

We endure abuse every day from men who are supposedly on our side--liberals, Democrats, leftists, socialists, anarchists, the whole lot. Letting their loftiest exemplars get away with sex crimes sends the message that abusive behaviour is okay as long as you publicly affect a certain wokeness.

And for Goddess' sake, it's abundantly clear that men like Louis C.K. and Harvey Weinstein *knew* this and exploited that fact consciously. Liberalism was the indulgence they paid to expiate their sins.

As these liberal and left men are the ones closest to many of us, they're often as not the ones directly harassing, raping, or abusing us. Indeed, my own MeToo stories come entirely from the left. And then they hold us hostage by saying "I'm all that stands between you and Gilead."

If that's our grim reality, then so be it, but I will not celebrate it or play any part in *encouraging* it.

I've said that I stand for certain values, that I *believe* in something. And, of all the things 2016/17 has taken away from me, I will die before they wrench *that* from me.
posted by ActionPopulated at 5:59 PM on November 16, 2017 [66 favorites]


There are reasonably funded labs as state schools who cannot legally lower tuition, but who can perhaps make the university cut overhead rates and raise salaries, assuming they see good prospects or existing students jumping ship.

Anyone working on a PhD is not elsewhere-unemployable. In many cases, actually finishing the PhD makes them less employable. It's true some may not understand how they could find work elsewhere, or pursue their PhD abroad instead, but that number must be vastly reduced from when I went to grad school. A $10k hit on a $33k salary will push many in the sciences to jump. An $8k hit on a $16k salary will force out many in the humanities. Are there more wanna-be TAs? Sure, but they're less good, so your department turns out weaker PhDs, and soon the best faculty start leaving too.

I'll predict this further reduces the ratio of women in academia too, based on the women tend to be less self-deluded theory of why we have fewer women in academia in the first place.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:59 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


Those are both excellent pieces (by Cross and Harding) and I hate this.
posted by Justinian at 6:21 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


With Kate Harding on Al Franken: I sympathize with her position although I do not agree. If you really do believe that we can win without lots of chaos and massive realignment - as long as all the Democrats hang together - it's a reasonable argument, and I think people are reading her pretty harshly. I think I would put her argument: "If we can't immediately defeat the tax bill and the legislation that is immediately right now coming down the pike, we are going to look back in a few years and women - and all marginalized people - are going to be materially worse off in real ways. People's health will be worse. People will die. People will have less work and lower wages. We will look back at this moment, in that future, and realize that while putting up with harassment would have been bad, it would not have been as bad as things have become".

Honestly, I think that's a reasonable argument It's the old "you're going to get punched in the head or kicked in the shins, which do you go for" thing - no amount of saying "but I don't want either" is going to help, so you may as well go for the shins and shield your precious, precious eyes and brain.

I disagree because I think we're in the middle of what is almost a revolutionary moment - not in the sense that the soviets are [necessarily] going to be established tomorrow, or that people are going to pick up the gun, but in the sense that an enormous realignment of all forces is happening during a titanic and covertly bloody struggle. I would rather have kicked the can of liberalism down the road by way of electing Clinton, tbh. I think the price of the realignment, even if we win anything worth winning, is going to be very very high. But that's not what happened and we have to be real about it.

I don't think that keeping Franken in is going to help. I don't think that asking Franken to resign is going to keep the right from weaponizing sexual harassment investigations. This is a bloody struggle now; the right is all-in. Doing things because we think we can forestall the right is foolish.

In a sense the right is correct. This is a culture war, among other things. We do want to destroy a lot of American "ways of life" - racism, sexism, homophobia, inequality, stifling people to make them conform to things they don't believe, all that stuff. You don't win a culture war by sitting on your hands and hoping to maintain the status quo, you win a culture war by making a culture that can absorb, transform and destroy the enemy. We need bold strokes.

Don't get me wrong - if I thought half measures would work, I'd be for half measures. The price of total war is high, and the people who pay it are the people who are already hurting, and I think that's a fantastic argument against grand designs.

But basically, I think Franken should resign because the only way we're going to win the big struggle against all the inequalities is to change the terrain of engagement.
posted by Frowner at 6:25 PM on November 16, 2017 [118 favorites]


Where is this likely to land on a scale from "Got any Russia docs?" "Go fish." to "Please turn over Document X written by M. M_______ on July 1, 2016"?

I'm gonna go with the second one. Jared Kushner failed to disclose emails sent to Trump team about WikiLeaks and Russia.
posted by scalefree at 6:29 PM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


okay so it's probably a little embarrassing how I'm like FROWNER'S #1 FAN 5EVER all the time but seriously that's the most clearheaded analysis of the times we're in that I've yet seen.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:31 PM on November 16, 2017 [33 favorites]


Just to make everything everything, I guess, NPR changes leadership as sexual harassment issues linger

The changes to the oversight board come two weeks after Michael Oreskes, leader of NPR's newsroom, lost his job following complaints by women of uncomfortable conversations, and reports of unwanted advances toward women when he worked at The New York Times nearly two decades ago.

So . . . with the head of the newsroom out, are they going to call Trump a liar now? I'll not hold my breath but. It'd be nice to hear that.
posted by petebest at 6:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


I don't think that asking Franken to resign is going to keep the right from weaponizing sexual harassment investigations.

This is the practical argument against Harding's position even though I sympathize with it, as people could have probably predicted since I'm usually arguing that side of most issues. Harding is right that getting rid of Franken means a precedent that will have Rs try to go after Ds in R states. But Frowner is right that keeping Franken won't stop that from happening, I think. Whether or not Franken stays or goes shouldn't depend on our evaluation of what the Rs might do because they have shown that they might do anything.
posted by Justinian at 6:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [20 favorites]


‘Family values’ legislator quits after being caught having sex with a man in his office
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:38 PM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Special Counsel Mueller Issued Subpoena for Russia-Related Documents From Trump Campaign Officials (WSJ)

Once again, the questions of who's leaking this and why come up in between the lines....
Special counsel Robert Mueller’s team in mid-October issued a subpoena to President Donald Trump’s campaign requesting Russia-related documents from more than a dozen top officials, according to a person familiar with the matter.

The subpoena, which requested documents and emails from the listed campaign officials that reference a set of Russia-related keywords, marked Mr. Mueller’s first official order for information from the campaign, according to the person. The subpoena didn’t compel any officials to testify before Mr. Mueller’s grand jury, the person said.

The subpoena caught the campaign by surprise, the person said. The campaign had previously been voluntarily complying with the special counsel’s requests for information, and had been sharing with Mr. Mueller’s team the documents it provided to congressional committees as part of their probes of Russian interference into the 2016 presidential election.

The Trump campaign is providing documents in response to the subpoena on an “ongoing” basis, the person said.
From this we can assume confidently enough that the person is not only familiar with this request from last month but also has some prior experience with Mueller's requests before this and with the Capitol Hill investigations. The next question is why this person is providing this information to the WSJ now, and the most obvious timing is with today's announcement by the Senate Judiciary Committee that it wants missing documents from Jared Kushner, in particular his communications with WikiLeaks. (And that demand in turn may have been touched off by the emergence of Donald Junior's absurd interactions with Julian Assange from earlier this week.)

My guess is that someone on the legal team of the Trump campaign, or very closely connected to it, is using this leak to alert Kushner's lawyers about what they've had to cough up to Mueller's investigation with in the past month. Anything that Jared turns over to the committee can and will be cross-referenced by Mueller's team with what they have - if nothing else, the Judiciary Committee leaks like a rusty colander - and Mueller can decide from that where he wants to take his subpoena power next.
posted by Doktor Zed at 6:39 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]


Meanwhile, the FCC has voted to further gut its media-ownership rules, overturning regulations dating to the ‘70s. This, I am sure, is fine. (previously)

I just want to circle back to this for a second, because of all the really awful news today, this is the one largely-overlooked story where you're going to be able to point to it and go "and that's what screwed everything up." It will just be Sinclair all the way down.
posted by zachlipton at 6:45 PM on November 16, 2017 [65 favorites]


If the tuition waiver thing does not get fixed, what will happen is that Americans will not sign up for grad school, but wealthy foreign students will continue to do so. (There are already a lot. I think they do not necessarily get tuition waivers? So they bring in more revenue to the school.) American research universities will continue to churn out research and to award PhDs. But they will be staffed even more than they are now by Chinese and Indian students (among others, of course) and those PhDs will go to Chinese and Indian citizens rather than American citizens.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:50 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Speaking of media asses that caused a right-wing wave of shit to percolate throughout the country, over the last 20 years, Comcast has approached 21st Century Fox and is interested in acquiring the same set of assets that Disney approached Fox about, sources say

Why is Fox selling their asses?
posted by petebest at 6:53 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


I don't like it when zachlipton circles back to things. They're never good things
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:53 PM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]



If the tuition waiver thing does not get fixed, what will happen is that Americans will not sign up for grad school, but wealthy foreign students will continue to do so

And with declining numbers of grad students who are SMART rather than wealthy (whether American or foreign), the work grad students do won't be done.
posted by ocschwar at 6:54 PM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


wealthy foreign students will continue to do so.

You need a visa for that, yes? So the State Department will have a university funding throttle completely under its control?
posted by ctmf at 6:55 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


Comcast has approached 21st Century Fox and is interested in acquiring the same set of assets that Disney approached Fox about, sources say
A major reason for the hoped-for Disney purchase was to 'unify' the parts of the Marvel and Star Wars properties that are not now owned by Disney... Comcast would not get that benefit. It makes no sense, so an obvious Comcast move. And I also thought excluding ALL of Fox's TV channels, broadcast and cable, would have to be part of the deal with either buyer. Merger Mania Gone Dumb.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:06 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


You need a visa for that, yes? So the State Department will have a university funding throttle completely under its control?

Good thing barely anyone works there.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:06 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


On Twitter, Goodman described himself as “Christian. American. Conservative. Republican.”

Top? bottom? versatile?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [11 favorites]


Mr. "when you're a star they let you do it" weighs in:

@realDonaldTrump: The Al Frankenstien picture is really bad, speaks a thousand words. Where do his hands go in pictures 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 while she sleeps? .....
posted by zachlipton at 7:09 PM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]


todo write script to replace everything after the string "@realDonaldTrump" with "I MADE A POOPY."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:13 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]


Apocryphon: "Would that Jerry Springer had followed through with a Senate run in 2000 or 2004."

Well, he was thinking about running for OH governor next year.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:14 PM on November 16, 2017


He mispelled Frankenstein.
posted by guiseroom at 7:15 PM on November 16, 2017 [19 favorites]


Newsweek today with a timely reminder: When has Trump been accused of rape or attempted rape? Allegations include a child, his wife, and a business associate
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:16 PM on November 16, 2017 [48 favorites]


That tweet from Trump says a lot more about Trump than it does about Franken.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 7:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [51 favorites]


Whatever happens with Franken, fuck Trump. That is all I have to say about that.
posted by Justinian at 7:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [47 favorites]


And Trump's neener-neener at Franken has just assured that his dozens of victims/accusers are going to become very visible within the week...
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:19 PM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


It continues. @realDonaldTrump: .And to think that just last week he was lecturing anyone who would listen about sexual harassment and respect for women. Lesley Stahl tape?

And to turn our attention to awful things said by other branches for a second:
At the Federalist Society banquet, Gorsuch just cracked a joke about the time he said that a trucker had to either be fired or freeze to death. Hilarious!

For those who are asking, this tweet actually happened. This is not sarcasm.
posted by zachlipton at 7:22 PM on November 16, 2017 [28 favorites]


Frankin: turn yourself over to law enforcement, plead guilty, get punished, then if you want to return to public life, let the voters decide.
posted by Anchorite_of_Palgrave at 7:22 PM on November 16, 2017


Friendly reminder that if you want to talk Moore qua Moore (I understand that there's some Moore/Franken intersection talk that appropriately goes here), we have an active Moore thread.

Two new polls today!
posted by Chrysostom at 7:23 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


Good job Senator Franken.

Bravo to you, too, President Dim-witted Ghoul.
posted by notyou at 7:24 PM on November 16, 2017


16 Women and Donald Trump

16 seems like an awfully low number...
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:31 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


oneswellfoop: "And Trump's neener-neener at Franken has just assured that his dozens of victims/accusers are going to become very visible within the week..."

Remains to be seen. So far, the public only appears willing to believe these accusations when the accused is black, gay, jewish, or a literal pedophile.

The fact that the accusations against Trump haven't been taken seriously (or really entered the mainstream discourse at all, after more than a year) speaks volumes. As a society, we're willing to throw minorities under the bus to superficially pretend that we care about women. But, god forbid we allow powerful white men to be threatened.
posted by schmod at 7:32 PM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]


Along with all the other shitty things today, Chuck Grassley killed blue slips.

I expect if Democrats win in 2020, they will immediately revive them, again, and hand Republicans the weapon back, again.

We’re going to be living with the Trumpist judicial branch the rest of all of our lives.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:41 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


“Frankin”?
posted by Barack Spinoza at 7:44 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


And I was just driving home thinking “huh Trump hasn’t tweeted some bullshit, he must actually be nervous about his own allegations coming back.” Damn.

I’ve been thinking a lot about that whole thread through the election and the pussy grabbing tape in particular. I think it was a massive slap to the face and no one in the media knew how to react. We didn’t have a narrative of what happens when someone that powrful is just open like that.

Unfortunately or fortunately, I think there is a narrative forming of how we respond as a larger society to these things. And it’s hopeful that we may actually do something different than we did in the past. At least I’m hoping it’s hopeful
posted by gofargogo at 7:45 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]


And I was just driving home thinking “huh Trump hasn’t tweeted some bullshit, he must actually be nervous about his own allegations coming back.” Damn.

Dominance ritual. He sees an opening, he's compelled to strike out. Trump is not in control, his narcissism is. It's a lot like Dexter's dark passenger.
posted by scalefree at 7:49 PM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Holy fuck, that Tweet! This whole week, the idiot miraculously managed to keep his trashdump of a mouth closed, almost as if he realized for once that if he opened it about Moore, he would only make things much, much worse for himself.

But he literally cannot force himself to resist, at some point, the compulsion to say the most disastrous possible thing for his own interests if he thinks it'll get him some petty attention or score a point on one of the many enemies. Never ceases to amaze and appall.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:53 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]


I guess I worry less about a theoretical Franken resignation being grist for Republicans and more about how it might deter other women from going public with complaints about other leaders. I think we've seen that, in the world of today, harsher sentences are more likely to result deterring reporting, investigating, and convictions for sexual assault, than I'm actually deterring men from assaulting women.

I also worry that one high profile becomes a sort of ritualized scapegoat. Lots of men get to make pronouncements and feel like they're fighting for a woman's honor (a conventional attractive white woman, same old same old), Franken carries away all their sins, and the tedious ongoing work (and emotional labor) of actually engaging with women and listening to women and thinking about what it takes to improve the everyday lives of women even in the immediate work circles... gets to be deferred again.

I'm not saying he shouldn't resign. Just that I have a lot of trepidation around it all.
posted by Salamandrous at 8:04 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]


He's really criticizing Franken for getting a picture of him made public (which Trump has dedicated a lot of effort and money to avoid) and for making statements about 'respecting women' (which Trump would NEVER do).

We'll see in the next few days if the worst of Trump's "Liberal Media" enablers (looking at you, NPR and New York Times) help to make #trumprape as viral as it should be, and if the Moore-related disinformation campaign silences or even semi-silences the WaPo. Because Newsweek Only Online Anymore is not enough.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:09 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


ELECTIONS NEWS

** AL Senate special -- Two new polls today. Fox has Jones up 50/42; Strategy Research has Jones up 46/43. That's about a 7/8 point deterioration from last time on both polls.

** 2018 House -- Cook Political: A Wave Is A Comin'. That's literally the headline.

** 2018 Senate -- PPP poll has Deb Fischer [R-NE] with a surprisingly narrow 42-31 lead over likely Dem opponent Jane Raybould.

** Odds & ends:
-- Bipartisan bill advancing in Georgia to eliminate electronic voting systems without a paper trail.

-- Legal battle between Kobach voter fraud commission and Democratic member heats up.

-- PA GOP tried to get the state gerrymandering case moved to federal system, but a federal court said no dice. The case is considered to have a good chance of calling for a redrawing of district boundaries for 2018.

-- Trump voters experiencing buyer's remorse.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:12 PM on November 16, 2017 [26 favorites]


@SenBobCorker: We’re $20 trillion in debt and it’s party like there’s no tomorrow time in Washington.

What are the odds that Bob "all out of fucks to give" Corker is No on the tax bill?
posted by Chrysostom at 8:14 PM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]


Doug Sosnik, WaPo: What Democratic civil war? The left already won.
This transformation has been building since the beginning of the past decade, fueled by Bush v. Gore, George W. Bush’s subsequent decision to go to war in Iraq and growing income inequality exacerbated by the economic crisis. The Trump presidency has only further energized the liberal base.

It is difficult to overstate the depth and breadth of the move to the left on social and economic policies among Democrats since Bill Clinton’s presidency. The Pew Values Survey released last month found that the percentage of Democrats and Democratic leaners who express liberal or mostly liberal political values exploded from 30 percent in 1994 to 73 percent in 2017.

The research found that 84 percent of Democrats think immigration is a good thing for our country — a 52-point increase since 1994. And 64 percent now believe that racial discrimination is the main reason that many black people cannot get ahead — a 36-point increase in the past seven years. A June 2017 Pew poll found that a majority of Democrats support single-payer health insurance, a 19-point increase in just the past three years.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:29 PM on November 16, 2017 [44 favorites]


Trump's Frankentweet, Woody Allen's "witch hunt" comment about Weinstein, Louis CK's obsessing over his d**k in his "apology," OJ's "If I Did It," they're all a part of the same sickness that makes these guys revisit the scene of their own crimes over and over. It's not enough to do it, they have to throw it in our faces. Not sure if they're craving vindication or punishment, in Trump's case maybe either is ok as long as he remains the center of attention.
posted by xigxag at 8:31 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]


Maybe we need a big purge, but historically those things don't end well. I'm not defending Franken, or anyone else, but I get a bad vibe here. There are tons of liberal offenders, and they need to face their responsibility, just as the right wing offenders do. On both sides, if those offenses are criminal, they need to face justice.

BUT, until literally a few weeks ago, there was a whole mainstream culture supporting and even encouraging men in objectifying and assaulting women. Men who went against this culture were ridiculed even by some women. In the world of comedy, it's hard to discern between those who act as jerks and those who are jerks, I suspect even for those who are doing the acting/being. In some social settings, being a jerk is an important part of performing masculinity. Blergh.

One of my facebook friends wrote a long post on how he had been really critical of #metoo, till one day the sheer number of female friends of his telling their stories had made him understand how ignorant he had been. To my knowledge, he has never assaulted anyone, but until very, very recently, he was being a jerk by upholding and actively supporting an assault culture.

In general, I support rehabilitation rather than punishment for all but the most hideous crimes. And I feel that if we really want to change this sexist culture, there needs to be a path towards redemption for some offenders, whatever their politics.

My feeling now is that Franken should probably set the good example and step down. But maybe from there he should examine what this toxic masculinity is all about and set out to educate first himself and then younger men and boys about how damning it is and how to get out of it, as a person and as a culture.
posted by mumimor at 8:36 PM on November 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


What Democratic civil war? The left already won.

Too bad we waited until after last November to win.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:40 PM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


"What Democratic civil war? The left already won."
It is difficult to overstate the depth and breadth of the move to the left on social and economic policies among Democrats since Bill Clinton’s presidency.

Part of the problem in 2016 is that the losers were still in control of the Party. Also, the move exceeded Mrs. Clinton's ability to keep up.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:48 PM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Uptmr’s whole deal is that he assumes every man is as abusive of women as he is. To him that’s just normal behavior. To him, Franken’s crime is not what he did to women, but that Franken was a giant hypocrite about it.
posted by um at 8:49 PM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]


It is difficult to overstate the depth and breadth of the move to the left on social and economic policies among Democrats since Bill Clinton’s presidency.

That conveniently omits the fact that Bill Clinton was a giant swerve to the right. Any post-Clinton leftward movement has been course correction, not some cultural shift.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:53 PM on November 16, 2017 [31 favorites]


OK, most post-Clinton leftward movement. The social stuff has been genuine progress.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:55 PM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]


Re: tax bill
House and Senate Panel Pass Tax Bill in Major Step Toward Overhaul, Thomas Kaplan and Alan Rappeport, NYT
After four days of debate, members of the Senate Finance Committee voted 14 to 12 along party lines to approve their version of the tax package late Thursday night. The approval helps clear the way for the full Senate to consider the bill after Thanksgiving, although it remains to be seen whether it has the support to pass the chamber.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 9:14 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


Mailed Sen. Franken a card (decorated with turkeys running from axes) telling him to resign in disgrace and wishing him a happy Thanksgiving
posted by salix at 9:17 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


BUT, until literally a few weeks ago, there was a whole mainstream culture supporting and even encouraging men in objectifying and assaulting women. Men who went against this culture were ridiculed even by some women

on whom are we to blame the idea that being ridiculed by a woman is worse than committing an act of violence against her, such that fear of ridicule explains some part of this? I do not, incidentally, believe that a great mass of men chose to do what they have done because they were worried that if they didn't threaten, stalk, degrade, or physically abuse a woman, she might make fun of him. that was not the reason.

and I also do not believe that men are incapable of handling the slight cognitive dissonance of simultaneously knowing that a thing is 'cool' and will bring you praise from a certain class of dipshit while also being wrong, bad, and wrong and bad. everyone understands that well enough when it comes to topics other than abusing women. when I was a lass, we had a dumb thing called "heroin chic." it involved a lot of lank hair and hollow-eyed staring, by the time it was featured in Vogue photoshoots there was a whole naughty mainstream culture around it. but if you asked any slack-jawed tween whether being a heroin addict was actually a good and wise thing to be, they knew enough to say No. whatever they chose to go on and do, later. Men, even the men of literally a few weeks ago, had brains that worked at least as well as my 13-year-old one did. maybe not better, but as well. of that, I am certain.

And the law is part of the culture, however little attention is paid to it.

And until literally a few weeks ago, there were several centuries of feminism -- mainstream, popular, esoteric, academic, complacent, edgy, radical, foreign, domestic -- a special sub-variety custom-tailored for each and every idiot -- dedicated to opposing and even fighting men who objectified and assaulted women. feminism was not just now born when Louis C.K's reputation died, whatever we are planning on rewriting the history books to say going forward in 2018. whether the current rage for taking crimes against women seriously is a fad or a real change will not be known for several more years. but either way, we in the mainstream of modern American culture did not suddenly figure out that women were human beings literally a few weeks ago. "Culture" never tells you just one thing and feminism has been inside mainstream culture in one disguise or another for decades and decades, choked and beaten back but never invisible.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [22 favorites]


Does the tax bill eliminate all tuition waiver exemptions, or just ones for grad school? Because if the former, I think I have an angle for calling republican legislators about it.
posted by corb at 9:43 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]


If we are to take Leann Tweeden at her word (and, uh, the picture) about Franken and what he did -- and I do -- we should take her at her word about accepting his apology, too. That said, I'm entirely against making "apology accepted" a part of the standard for how these things are handled.

This society puts tremendous pressure on people to accept apologies and forgive those who have done wrong. We are awash in narratives and guidance on relationships and community and being a team player and "putting aside our differences. " It often adds up to people being encouraged to accept harm and even put themselves at risk of further abuse and further harm.

Tweeden accepts his apology? Cool. I am glad she has found any measure of closure in this. I absolutely don't believe she's the only woman Franken has treated terribly. Imagine how many of his other victims are going to hear, "Aw, this was already dealt with, why are you opening it up again?" And if we set this as the bar, then every woman who comes forward is going to be expected to accept an apology as the end of it. No matter how sickening the behavior. No matter how ugly the abuse.

Every woman who wants to see a firing or a settlement or a criminal trial is going to have this extra measure of pressure on her to forget it all. Because Al Franken apologized, and what happened to you is only X degrees different, so why is it such a big deal?

"C'mon, he said he's sorry. Isn't that enough?" Imagine facing that when the dude who says "sorry" is someone who groped you, who made you feel unsafe, who left you with years of self-doubt and distrust of others and all the rest of the damage this sort of shit does. And imagine how that "C'mon, isn't that enough?" coming not from one or two people, but from society. Imagine that with media attention behind it.

It is absolutely unfair to put that burden on women (or men! or others!) who have suffered this sort of abuse.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:54 PM on November 16, 2017 [30 favorites]


i was so angry about so many other things today that i nearly overlooked this little exchange during today's press conference:
Q Thank you very much. Going back to Russia just a bit. When he said that he spoke with Putin and he believed that he meant what he said -- in other words, there was no collusion with the government --

MS. SANDERS: He actually said he believed that Putin believed what he said, and that he wasn't going to get into an argument with him over that when they had bigger things, like North Korea, like the issues in Syria that they needed to deal with and work together on.

Q Okay, so the question being, he's always maintained that it was the Democrats who colluded with Russia. Is he saying that Putin exonerated the Democrats?

MS. SANDERS: Look, the President still firmly believes that there was collusion with the Democrats during this election process. But, again, he's not going to get into the back-and-forth with a world leader that he needs to work with and wants to work with in order to deal with some of the big and serious things that are facing our country right now.
pardon me, i must go set something expensive on fire.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:56 PM on November 16, 2017 [38 favorites]


pardon me, i must go set something expensive on fire.

ooo! ooo! will we be peeing on it as well?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]


‘Family values’ legislator quits after being caught having sex with a man in his office

Because consensual gay sex is apparently even more shameful than sexual harrassment if you're a conservative. Cool. Cool cool cool
posted by en forme de poire at 11:17 PM on November 16, 2017 [32 favorites]


Does the tax bill eliminate all tuition waiver exemptions, or just ones for grad school? Because if the former, I think I have an angle for calling republican

If you don't have:
- pass through income
- a multi-million dollar estate
- a personal corporation
you have something to complain about in this tax bill.
posted by benzenedream at 11:20 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]


Reminder, in NYC on Dec 1st you can socialize with the socialists at the RED NEEDS GREEN BALL
posted by The Whelk at 2:24 AM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


I don't see why people have confidence that Franken behaved this way only one time in his life. We see that when people abuse they do it consistently over many years -- there are probably a dozen stories like this in his past that could come out, especially from the period where he wasn't yet thinking of public office. That photo alone is enough for me to say "resign," especially since Minnesota is a governor-appoints state and there's no real "cost" to it -- but at this point the default assumption has to be that this was a long-term pattern of abuse and more stories will emerge. His political career is almost certainly over.
posted by gerryblog at 3:37 AM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


Does the tax bill eliminate all tuition waiver exemptions, or just ones for grad school?

Also for undergraduates who get tuition waivers because they are employed by the school. Here is the text of the law as it currently stands (quoting from subsection d of section 117)
(1)In general gross income shall not include any qualified tuition reduction.

(2)For purposes of this subsection, the term “qualified tuition reduction” means the amount of any reduction in tuition provided to an employee of an organization described in section 170(b)(1)(A)(ii) for the education (below the graduate level) at such organization
...
(5)Special rules for teaching and research assistants

In the case of the education of an individual who is a graduate student at an educational organization described in section 170(b)(1)(A)(ii) and who is engaged in teaching or research activities for such organization, paragraph (2) shall be applied as if it did not contain the phrase “(below the graduate level)”.
Here are the proposed changes. See p96 sec 1204 (a) (3)

It would amend the law "by striking subsection (d) of section 117."
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:52 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


"resign," especially since Minnesota is a governor-appoints state and there's no real "cost" to it

in this instance, there is no cost. but for the next democrat (and i am pretty sure there will be one, or more than one; given how depressingly common harassment is, the odds are pretty good), there may be a cost. if franken sets a precedent here, it could have consequences elsewhere.

i don't see how franken doesn't, ultimately, resign, and that's probably the best course to take. but the fact that there's no direct effect on the senate right now doesn't mean there won't be effects later.
posted by halation at 4:02 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Just to clarify my earlier comment, because it sounded a little racist, I have no problem with foreign students of any nationality getting PhDs at American universities. I do think it hurts the US, though, if near my everyone who gets a PhD then leaves the country. We need highly educated people here! And, of course, the Trump administration is making it harder fo students who do come here to get their PhDs to stay after they have earned them.

China and India are very large countries, and consequently a lot of students come from there. Out of large populations it is possible to find a lot of students who are both talented AND wealthy, especially since both cultures put a high value on education, such that even wealthy families see getting a PhD as desirable. (I think it is seen as kind of eccentric by wealthy Americans.)

I am actually not worried about the quality of US graduate programs or university research going down! I am worried about the "brain drain" implications.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:10 AM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


Just watched an exchange with Senators Brown and Hatch that was super hostile, with Brown saying look this tax bill fucks over x y and z why don't you admit it and Hatch just is all I TAKE GREAT ISSUE WITH YOUR SLANDER SIR and is all I come from the lower middle class as if that addresses any of the fucking issues, his humble origins. But you can see that he thinks it does, like, the fact of his humble beginnings is some sort of magic that will cause inquiries into the truth to fail.


I once was really stupid in a welfare reform lobbying sitch in the 90s, and we went to lobby Chaffee, and the legislative aide was all, 'folks, you have to understand that this is happening' and I said something totally undiplomatic like, 'well he wouldn't be doing the morally right thing to support a bill that's going to hurt a lot of people, just because it's going to pass' except I said it in some super-duper undiplomatic way that clearly suggested that Chaffee was a moral coward.

The legislative aide just lost her shit and kicked us all out. Christ, I remember how angry she was.
I mean, Chaffee was a decent guy and I was a shit lobbyist, and now I understand the political point the legislative aide was making, but I did not expect to be verbally ripped apart because I made a very clumsy suggestion that the senator should rise to a higher standard.

Anyways, I guess my point is a completely unoriginal one about how power fucks with people's sense of themselves.

Also, I once worked for some Mormon folks in Portland and when I interned in D.C. the Mormon folks gave me a big pink box to give to Hatch's office. This was pre 9-11, I delivered the box, and then to my surprise after I was out of the building, this capitol police officer came dashing up to me, crying WHAT WAS IN THAT PINK BOX. I told him I had no idea, and he eyed me and let me go. Retroactively, I hope it was full of cooties.
posted by angrycat at 4:26 AM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


That conveniently omits the fact that Bill Clinton was a giant swerve to the right. Any post-Clinton leftward movement has been course correction, not some cultural shift.

And this conveniently omits that Dems had lost 5 of 6 elections with Humphrey, McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis - hardly the Bluedog wing of the Ds - by huge landslides prior to Bill. And when I say landslides, I don't mean Obama '08. I mean ECs of 520-17, 489-49, 525-13. And Ds barely won with Carter. We complain about Hillary losing by 79k votes. Change 9k votes in Hawaii and Ohio and Carter loses. And that was after Watergate, the Nixon pardon, and losing Vietnam.

What did Mr. Third Way do when elected? Spent much of his first two years and political capital fighting for universal care. And a Democratic Congress with 57 D senators (+14) and 256 D representatives (+82) couldn't pass it. And what did Bill get for that effort? The 1994 Gingrich revolution where Rs gained 54 seats and took control of the House by 26 seats. And losses in the Senate that made it 54-46 Rs. Pretty much ending his chance to do anything without huge buy-in from Rs.

And whatever you think of Bill's legislative accomplishments, much of the progress and moves to the left we've made since Clinton would be impossible without Ginsberg and Breyer. With Scalias in there instead, we don't have Roe, Obamacare, legalization of gay sex much less gay marriage, etc. etc.

The nation was more conservative then and the left/liberal wing of the Democratic Party had not just been unable to win, they had been crushed. Bill was far from perfect, but he was far better than 8 years of more Republicans.
posted by chris24 at 4:50 AM on November 17, 2017 [107 favorites]


I don't see why people have confidence that Franken behaved this way only one time in his life.

I guess, n a 2017 kind of way, I'm waiting for others because I agree. If Franken did this then there would almost have to be more testimony coming. Conversely, if he didn't, then there shouldn't. Right? That's presuming 2017 stays on course for another month or so.

One basic fact is there is no photo of groping. That's concerning because the narrative that there is, is taking precedence.
posted by petebest at 4:58 AM on November 17, 2017


much of the progress and moves to the left we've made since Clinton would be impossible without Ginsberg and Breyer. With Scalias in there instead, we don't have Roe, Obamacare, legalization of gay sex much less gay marriage, etc. etc.

So true. The judicial impact of Trump will be the worst of it.
posted by petebest at 5:02 AM on November 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


But Clinton's hypocrisy and the liberal tolerance for his history of sexual harrassment and abuse helped in a big way with selling the liberal hypocrisy story, and "It depends what your definition of 'is' is" was of a piece with the kind of mealy mouthed, deflective and equivocal uses of language Trump and his supporters now use even more aggressively.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:03 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


One of my dreams for the Trump family is coming true, peeps. During last year's campaign I said that I hoped one outcome for the Trump Organization is a devastating loss of capital and a rich-bitch family that forever rued the day that Daddy decided to run for office.
Public filings show that the President's family business, currently headed up by Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., is worth one-tenth of the value that it was last year, when it made $9.5 billion in sales.
posted by xyzzy at 5:03 AM on November 17, 2017 [41 favorites]


I see the photo as supporting the her story that when she resisted rehearsing the kiss, he a) groped her and b) treated her shittily. Whether his hands are are actually on her breasts in that photo is not terribly significant. It's humiliating and while we can't know intent, it's hard to not think that Franken intended to humiliate her in a way that she didn't have power to stop in the way she stopped him when he stuck his tongue down her throat.

Anyway, I agree with Frowner's analysis. I don't find like, determining where on the scale of Evil Assaults Franken's actions are. We are in the cultural moment we're in. Franken has a chance to do something heroic in stepping aside. I would applaud him for it, even though it's weird because I'd be applauding a guy who did at least one really shitty thing. Oh well. 2017.
posted by angrycat at 5:18 AM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


Does anyone know if the tuition waiver tax applies to (non-student) employees of colleges or private K-12s whose children get free tuition at their institutions?
posted by Ralston McTodd at 5:18 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


It definitely applies to employees who get tuition waivers for themselves or their children. The NYT (I think) had a story about it that featured a janitor at Boston University who got free tuition for his children, which would be taxed as income under the House bill.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:21 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


Here's the article about college employees' tuition benefits being taxed.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:34 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


WaPo overview of the gamut of higher ed costs that the house tax bill would foist upon students and families (including but not limited to tuition waivers): Government analysis shows House tax bill would increase the cost of college by $71 billion over a decade.
posted by Westringia F. at 5:47 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


This tax bill will mean students leaving school with bigger and bigger loan burdens. And remember that DeVos got rid of regulations that protected against unscrupulous lenders. They really do have their bases covered, don't they?
posted by mcduff at 5:59 AM on November 17, 2017 [31 favorites]


I'm not sure how anyone on our side can argue, with a straight face, that the GOP should do something about Moore if Franken doesn't resign. We NEED to be better than them. That's the moral and ethical stance we need to hold firm on. The GOP will weaponize this no matter what we do, so might as well do the right thing.

That said, even from a purely political calculus, a chance at a Senate pickup in AL is worth a fucking hell of a lot more than a replaceable Dem in MN. So push hard for accountability, don't give the Republicans any goddamn cover on this.
posted by lydhre at 6:17 AM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


Sean Illing, Vox: “The fish rots from the head”: a historian on the unique corruption of Trump’s White House. "Politicians lie, but this is different."

An interview with Robert Dallek, presidential historian, qualifying how the Trump presidency is just the worst in terms of behavior, and pointing out that America has recovered from adversity before.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:26 AM on November 17, 2017 [30 favorites]


So true. The judicial impact of Trump will be the worst of it.

Federalist Society chairman proposes court-packing scheme allowing Trump to pick hundreds of judges

The ambition of Calabresi’s memo is, at times, staggering. At one point he proposes doubling or tripling the number of federal appellate court judgeships — claiming that “the optimal number of active circuit court judgeships is at least double the current number of 167 authorized judgeships… and more likely between 2.5x and 3x the current number.”
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:30 AM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


The response from the democrats after this is over had better not be, "Aw shucks, I guess we're stuck with all these judges from the guy who committed at least one impeachable offense each day in office while trying to enrich himself and his family." Regardless of how packed or not packed Trump leaves things.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:32 AM on November 17, 2017 [42 favorites]


And whatever you think of Bill's legislative accomplishments, much of the progress and moves to the left we've made since Clinton would be impossible without Ginsberg and Breyer. With Scalias in there instead, we don't have Roe, Obamacare, legalization of gay sex much less gay marriage, etc. etc.

In re Bill Clinton: I think that we need better legislative histories so that we can better assess what presidential options exist at any time. It's true that the left does often blame presidents (I mean, I do this) for things that they would have liked to have done but did not have the votes for, and it's true that the left does need to finely disaggregate stuff. There are Democrats who vote for soft-socialist things on healthcare and education; it's not like the Democratic party is in lockstep about being neoliberal, pro-corporate and pro-"equality" mainly if it's for for rich gays, women and POC. So yeah, I think that recognizing the limitations that Clinton faced is important.

At the same time, I remember Clinton pretty well because I cut my political teeth on Clinton-era Greenpeace/Amnesty International nineties-style activism. His environmental record was pretty bad - he routinely met with timber companies, etc, to write legislation. He was a huge supporter of NAFTA and the overhaul round of GATT, both of which have proved bad for the US and worse for, eg, Mexico and other less dominant economies*. (NAFTA pretty much gutted the Mexican corn industry, for instance, and dramatically increased food instability.) And of course, there's welfare reform. Without NAFTA and welfare reform, working people in this country would be enormously more powerful because less economically precarious. Corporations would have much less power. Those were truly terrible initiatives that Clinton supported off his own bat, and it wasn't a mystery that they would be bad for working people - it was widely known.

So yes, absolutely - let's not blame Clinton for failing to do good things when he didn't have the support and couldn't get the votes. Let's not paint him as worse than he was. But his actual economic politics were pretty bad and a large part of the mess we're in.


*At this point, I am dubious about Trump's anti-NAFTA posturing, because NAFTA is a twenty year old agreement and our entire economy is organized around it. Whatever happens to improve the US economy vis a vis jobs and trade, it won't be "burn NAFTA to the ground", unfortunately. I wish it were that simple.
posted by Frowner at 6:33 AM on November 17, 2017 [18 favorites]


Public filings show that the President's family business, currently headed up by Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., is worth one-tenth of the value that it was last year, when it made $9.5 billion in sales.

Nobody goes from $9.5 billion to $700 million without shenanigans. I'm more inclined to believe that their actual revenue is up this year and that the 9.5 billion figure was just pulled from thin air as part of the Trump Is Good At Business feature of his campaign.
posted by dis_integration at 6:34 AM on November 17, 2017 [59 favorites]


I'm not sure how anyone on our side can argue, with a straight face, that the GOP should do something about Moore if Franken doesn't resign.

I think a resignation is the right thing to do and I'd like to see it happen. I also don't think it's at all hard to argue, with a straight face, that there is a lot of distance between trying to date underaged girls (effectively proven) and sexual contact with minors (alleged) on the one hand and a forced kiss (alleged) and super gross photo bullshit (proven) on the other. Even if you wish to contend that both things exist on a continuum where anyone anywhere on it should be barred from public service - which I'm receptive to - the fact that one incident has been addressed by taking responsibility and opening an investigation and the other has been shrugs and denials is meaningful.

Or tl;dr: I think one can argue that because something is being done about Franken where nothing is being done (except for student groups who have some morals with regards to their endorsements) about Moore.
posted by phearlez at 6:35 AM on November 17, 2017 [26 favorites]


At one point he proposes doubling or tripling the number of federal appellate court judgeships —

Fortunately, Trump is so lazy he can’t even fill the open judgeships he has.
posted by corb at 6:35 AM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


At the Federalist Society banquet, Gorsuch just cracked a joke about the time he said that a trucker had to either be fired or freeze to death. Hilarious!

Article here:
The premise of Gorsuch’s joke is that he was unfairly attacked during his confirmation hearing because he reached a result that was required by the law. A judge may be presented with a law, Gorsuch began his joke, and “immediately know three things.”
One, the law is telling me to do something really, really stupid. Two, the law is constitutional and I have no choice but to do that really stupid thing the law demands. And three, when it’s done, everyone who is not a lawyer is going to think I just hate truckers.
The joke was a hit with the gathered Federalist Society members, who laughed and clapped uproariously after Gorsuch delivered his punchline.

But here’s the thing. Either Gorsuch is wrong, and his vote in TransAm Trucking v. Administrative Review Board was a cruel swipe at a man who, after nearly freezing death, was illegally humiliated by his employer. Or Gorsuch is correct, and what happened to Alphonse Maddin is the horrible consequence of a terribly worded law. Maddin’s case is neither an easy win for Maddin nor the slam dunk for Maddin’s employer that Gorsuch thinks it is, but whoever is right about the law, this case is a human tragedy.

Or, if you are Neil Gorsuch, it was an annoyance that briefly stood between you and a powerful job in Washington. And now it is something to joke about.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:40 AM on November 17, 2017 [44 favorites]


Fortunately, Trump is so lazy he can’t even fill the open judgeships he has.

Wrong. With a couple notable exceptions, Trump is filling judges at a faster pace than Obama, Bush or Clinton, many with right wing zealots that were previously rejected, like Don Willett.

Filling the judiciary with Republican apparatchiks is why he was elected for most of the party "establishment". It's why the religious right got behind him, and it's the one area he's delivering everything he promised.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:43 AM on November 17, 2017 [80 favorites]


When I said W. Clinton was a swerve to the right, I was not necessarily making a negative value judgment about it or saying his presidency was a mistake or anything, just taking issue with the implication (or inference) that the line from, say, the Kennedy-era Democratic Party to now was a steady gradual leftward march or something.

You could argue (not sure I do, but you could) that the Clinton swerve was the needed compromise response to progressivism being somewhat stalled. Slide rightward enough to rope in some of the center-right electorate, earn their buy-in, and then nudge them all left bit by bit for a decade or two while whistling nonchalantly. The "one step back, two gradual steps forward" plan.

The entire remaining center-right and right taking a hard sustained turn to extreme retrograde batshit theocratic fascism is an unfortunate monkeywrench, though.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:48 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Fortunately, Trump is so lazy he can’t even fill the open judgeships he has.

What? No. He's not only packing the courts as fast as he can (as T.D. Strange notes), but he's remaking the judiciary to be far more white, male, and right-wing loony at a rate not seen in decades. And it's not as if supposed "principled" conservatives like Flake and Sasse (both of whom sit on the Judiciary Committee) are doing anything about it, because despite their sadface mumbling about how horrible and threatening Trump is, they just rubber-stamped his nominee, a clearly-unqualified NRA stooge and KKK defender who believes in destroying gun control so that bigots can finally have the violent purges they dream of.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:56 AM on November 17, 2017 [47 favorites]


i would like to hear a lot less legalistic analysis of what the Franken photo shows or doesn't show.

there are no photos of moore doing what his accusers say he did, but we believe them, because believing women when they report sexual assault is the correct default, photos or no photos.

if Leeann Tweeden had no photo, Franken would still have to answer her accusation. and i'd like to think that metafilter would take her seriously, photo or no.
posted by murphy slaw at 7:00 AM on November 17, 2017 [19 favorites]


At this point, our existing institutions and systems are probably too corrupted to count on. That seems more and more to me like an unavoidable reality we have to take more seriously and be prepared to watch playing out for decades to come.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:00 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Virtual end to subsidies for internet for low-income people and reservation residents.

You know what I think? I think that one important thing we should all do - including people who, like me, are not socialists - is support socialist organizing and socialist candidates. We have to boot Trump in 2020 and we have to undo all this, and in order to do that, we will need a steady, organized push from a policy-oriented slice of the left, and it needs to come from outside the Washington consensus. We may have very good people in office, but they are going to need to be pushed on policy-specific concerns, and they are going to need to be able to point to constituents who are organized and of the left, because otherwise standard Washington gravity will pull them back in.

We have to undo all this stuff.

In terms of the courts: maybe we've been leaning too much on the courts and we have to figure out ways to make changes that don't depend on the judiciary. Times change and the right adapts - you support unions, they move offshore; you create social security and they refuse to adjust for COLA. Any good thing that gets done will be hacked by the right as soon as they have the strategy and the power. Which means that we can't rely on one strategy to win forever.

These are not times I wanted to live in, but this is a time of realignment of power and practice. We're basically going from "la la Middle Earth is stable even if the Necromancer is off in Mirkwood somewhere" to "Barad-dur is all lit up and the Nazgul are riding!!!!" and just as in Lord of the Rings, none may live now as they have lived.
posted by Frowner at 7:07 AM on November 17, 2017 [41 favorites]


so when do we man the barricades
posted by entropicamericana at 7:09 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Well, first of all, we’ll person, people, or staff them.
posted by notyou at 7:11 AM on November 17, 2017 [62 favorites]


Do you hear the people sing?, singing the song of angry folks!
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:20 AM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


Franken Should Go, Michelle Goldberg, NYT.
So my first instinct is to say that Franken deserves a chance to go through an ethics investigation but remain in the Senate, where he should redouble his efforts on behalf of abuse and harassment victims. But if that happens, the current movement toward unprecedented accountability for sexual harassers will probably start to peter out. Republicans, never particularly eager to hold their own to account, will use Franken to deflect from more egregious abuse on their own side, like what Trump and Roy Moore are accused of. Women with stories about other members of Congress might hesitate to come forward. That horrifying photo of Franken will confront feminists every time they decry Trump’s boasts of grabbing women by the genitals. Democrats will have to worry about whether more damaging information will come out, and given the way scandals like this tend to unfold, it probably will.

It’s not worth it. The question isn’t about what’s fair to Franken, but what’s fair to the rest of us. I would mourn Franken’s departure from the Senate, but I think he should go, and the governor should appoint a woman to fill his seat. The message to men in power about sexual degradation has to be clear: We will replace you.
posted by AwkwardPause at 7:22 AM on November 17, 2017 [46 favorites]


That is so infuriating. I have many students who have difficulty accessing the internet as is, and my school heavily promotes online components of even in-person classes.
posted by angrycat at 7:23 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


Basically we're all looking at a lifetime of reading news stories that read "Judge [name], a Trump appointee, ruled this horrible way."
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:28 AM on November 17, 2017 [27 favorites]


> Liberal advocates are dismayed that Republicans have voted in unison on Trump’s judges.

“So far, no one from his party has been willing to stand up against him on the agenda of packing the courts,” said Marge Baker, executive vice president of People for the American Way.

Why would they? Isn't he doing exactly what they've always dreamed of doing? You're screwed, America.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:30 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Let us not forget the role of McTurtle and the GOP wailers in this Supreme judicial disaster.
posted by Dashy at 7:30 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


NARCO-A-LAGO: Money Laundering at the Trump Ocean Club Panama
Trump may not have deliberately set out to facilitate criminal activity in his business dealings. But, as this Global Witness investigation shows, licensing his brand to the luxurious Trump Ocean Club International Hotel and Tower in Panama aligned Trump’s financial interests with those of crooks looking to launder ill-gotten gains. Trump seems to have done little to nothing to prevent this. What is clear is that proceeds from Colombian cartels’ narcotics trafficking were laundered through the Trump Ocean Club and that Donald Trump was one of the beneficiaries.
Somewhat of an annoying interface, but a lot of info to dig into. If you click the three vertical dots in the footer you can jump between the chapters more easily.
posted by mikepop at 7:34 AM on November 17, 2017 [22 favorites]


OK, the reporter asking Sarah Sanders "Is [Trump] saying that Putin exonerated the Democrats?" is very fine trolling with respect to the administration's kettle logic. Like asking a Republican in 2013 whether the inconsequential government "slim-down" was the nerfarious doing of Barack Obama.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:42 AM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


Kate Harding (whose twitter thread we linked yesterday) has a longer, more clear take on her view in today's WaPo.

Reading her piece and the one by Katherine Cross, also linked yesterday, I'm honestly conflicted on this. Also wondering if this deserves its own thread, because it matters and shouldn't get buried under posts about the daily horror show.
posted by martin q blank at 7:59 AM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


A 'Toothless' Old Law Could Have New Fangs, Thanks To Robert Mueller (Miles Parks for NPR, Nov. 17, 2017) -- a summary of the history and possible future of the Foreign Agents Registration Act, or FARA, which was enacted in 1938 to combat Nazi and communist propaganda spouting up on the front end of World War II, not as a way to stop people from getting paid to promote propaganda, but to shine a light on it.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:05 AM on November 17, 2017 [14 favorites]


But they will be staffed even more than they are now by Chinese and Indian students (among others, of course) and those PhDs will go to Chinese and Indian citizens rather than American citizens.

This is a fast-moving conversation so I'm trying to just get this in here. I'm a grad coordinator for a top 3 science department in the US. We fund all of our students - we prefer not to accept students who could fund themselves. It's one of the reasons we're top ranked.

Being able to provide funding to students and tuition waivers is so inherent to top ranked programs that I can't even conceive how this change will affect us. And we currently do not have any students from China or India. Our funding model allows us to educate predominately US students. The university I'm at is the largest employer in my county with a payroll of 900 million. Cratering graduate studies, taxing undergrad employees, and increasing taxes on tuition waivers for employees who work here partly so they can send their kids to college seems so incredibly detrimental to the community - I'm baffled.
posted by Squeak Attack at 8:06 AM on November 17, 2017 [42 favorites]


Also wondering if this deserves its own thread, because it matters and shouldn't get buried under posts about the daily horror show.

Al Franken? Sexual harassment in government or entertainment?
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:06 AM on November 17, 2017


Congress Considering Concealed Carry Reciprocity Law (NPR, Nov. 16, 2017) -- Congress is considering a bill that would allow a person with a concealed carry permit in one state to legally carry the gun in another state, even if that state has stricter requirements for getting a permit.

If this moves forward, beware of shady promotions aligning this with drivers licenses, and know that even though 30 states issue concealed carry permits, the restrictions, regulations, and testing vary greatly - 26 states will let you carry a concealed gun without making sure you know how to shoot one.

I'm feeling safer already.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:15 AM on November 17, 2017 [14 favorites]


Cratering graduate studies, taxing undergrad employees, and increasing taxes on tuition waivers for employees who work here partly so they can send their kids to college seems so incredibly detrimental to the community - I'm baffled.

It's not so baffling when you accept that this bill (and administration and party) is intended only to benefit the ultra-rich and fuck over everyone else. It sure is devastating - but not baffling, at least to me.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:17 AM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


I think the corollary of admitting that sexism and sexual harassment are extraordinarily pervasive in our society is that we need a way to address past misconduct that takes into account how widespread it is. Like after apartheid in South Africa, when they acknowledged that you can't put all the perpetrators in prison, and implemented TRCs. Another analogy I've had in my mind is a pathway to citizenship. I think we all benefit from creating some way for people who have engaged in the less egregious forms of sexist misconduct to move forward constructively and contribute positively. (also, think: restorative justice)
posted by prefpara at 8:18 AM on November 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


The push to make reciprocity mandatory is gross but I'm not sure how much actual impact it will have compared to status quo. Here in Virginia the AG tried to lay the smackdown on states with shittier standards (not like ours are so big but when I did mine at least there was a little mandatory range time) and of course the ammosexuals lost their fucking minds over it. In the end they backed off because the house of delegates was willing to punish everyone else over it if they didn't knuckle under.
posted by phearlez at 8:20 AM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


As mefi's own scalzi noted in a post recently, those reconciliation systems came around after the oppressed where in power and the shitbags largely pushed out. When we have a 80%+ women Senate and House and a woman in the Presidency I'll be willing to entertain that such a thing should exist.

Until then it sounds a lot like women being asked to shut up and forgive for everyone's convenience except their own.
posted by phearlez at 8:23 AM on November 17, 2017 [27 favorites]


So, at least one bright light from Trump is that other places that were toying with populism are reacting against the polarization he represents by creating good policies. in Ontario we have a hugely unpopular Premier (no charisma, butch lesbian who has strongly promoted LGBTQQIP2SAA, some questionable decisions) who has been doing some pretty progressive things in reaction to the Rob Ford fanbase and conservative, rural voters (the current liberal government also followed a corrupt, conservative government that damaged Ontario in many ways over eight years). It is interesting to watch. So, I have hope that the person following Trump will be progressive and able to reverse many of his terrible decisions in a similar manner.


https://ipolitics.ca/2017/11/14/politically-wynnes-hole-shes-changing-ontario/
posted by saucysault at 8:23 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


Cratering graduate studies, taxing undergrad employees, and increasing taxes on tuition waivers for employees who work here partly so they can send their kids to college seems so incredibly detrimental to the community - I'm baffled.

It's not so baffling when you accept that this bill (and administration and party) is intended only to benefit the ultra-rich and fuck over everyone else. It sure is devastating - but not baffling, at least to me.

The long game is the destruction of institutions that support and perpetuate the American Left, minimizing it to a convenient opposition/scapegoat.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:25 AM on November 17, 2017 [47 favorites]


The long game is the destruction of institutions that support and perpetuate the American Left, minimizing it to a convenient opposition/scapegoat.

Yep.

I do wonder about how effective institutions that push back will be. Like Squeak Attack points out, many of these are the largest employers in their cities / counties / regions and have immense resources at their disposal. My employer (UPenn) is sending out emails to staff and students saying they will be fighting this stuff. I wonder how much their economic muscle will matter.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:29 AM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


I don't agree that finding a way to address past sexist misconduct that involves honestly, transparency, making amends, and consequences (but is short of some version where you just burn it all down) is equivalent to "women being asked to shut up and forgive for everyone's convenience except their own."

We're in a society that isn't neatly split into good people and bad people. We've got a bunch of mixed bag people who do both good things and bad things. I think we need to find a better way to deal with people who do bad things than assigning them to the bad guy category and turning entirely away from them. That's why I like the pathway to citizenship analogy. People who have done bad things are capable of redemption. Not recognizing that doesn't serve us well. And an inability to deal with that is something I think of as characteristic of Republicans, so I want Democrats to be better.
posted by prefpara at 8:30 AM on November 17, 2017 [25 favorites]


Yes, going after colleges and grad schools to hurt the Left is almost certainly the goal here. It would also hurt the communities potential students belong to, too, and reduce the number of trained employees in vitally important jobs, which hurts everyone - conservatives included.

So I'm getting very frustrated with Trumpists in my community who think all this won't have any negative blowback on them. They don't really gain much from all the thing's Trump is doing. He hasn't helped solve their problems in any meaningful way, but they still support him.

I simply don't understand how ordinary people think tax cuts to the Thiels and Trumps (and having money taken from them to fund those tax cuts) would benefit them in any way.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:33 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


Cratering graduate studies, taxing undergrad employees, and increasing taxes on tuition waivers for employees who work here partly so they can send their kids to college seems so incredibly detrimental to the community - I'm baffled.

It's not so baffling when you accept that this bill (and administration and party) is intended only to benefit the ultra-rich and fuck over everyone else. It sure is devastating - but not baffling, at least to me.

The long game is the destruction of institutions that support and perpetuate the American Left, minimizing it to a convenient opposition/scapegoat.

With a huge side helping of cutting off one way immigrants get into the US. Yes, it will hurt Americans, but a lot of rightwing nutjobs see grad school as places Chinese, Indians and other POC come here to take our slots, take our jobs, get green cards, and get rich.
posted by chris24 at 8:34 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


Yes exactly - "in order to protect our jobs from foreigners, we're going to make it harder for our own citizens to qualify for those jobs. Merica!"
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:37 AM on November 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


They also just hate and mistrust general knowledge and liberal arts education because they're only a couple of notches short of being outright cultural Maoists.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:38 AM on November 17, 2017 [20 favorites]


Yes exactly - "in order to protect our jobs from foreigners, we're going to make it harder for our own citizens to qualify for those jobs. Merica!"

Yep, nobody said Republicans were smart. They have quite the history of voting against their own interests in favor of racism.
posted by chris24 at 8:39 AM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


So instead, the egghead liberal elites leave the country (we might call it brain drain, they call it a feature) and get educated / careers elsewhere. And the "real" America does....what? Just grow guns for a living?
posted by lazaruslong at 8:39 AM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


(For just one example of skewed priorities - reversing bans on importing ivory. Even leaving aside the (abhorrent) moral ethics of that, how does that benefit America/the American people in any way? The only possible optics I can see for doing that outside of spite are to benefit rich trophy hunters like the Trump kids, which shows where their priorities really are.)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:40 AM on November 17, 2017 [18 favorites]


I simply don't understand how ordinary people think tax cuts to the Thiels and Trumps (and having money taken from them to fund those tax cuts) would benefit them in any way.

The only conclusion I can come to is that they are in a Fox News bubble and have no idea that this is what is happening. They hear "Republican Tax Reform" and think "Less taxes" with a smattering of "Good for Business = Good for Me".
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:40 AM on November 17, 2017 [14 favorites]


Michelle Goldberg, NYT: "The question isn’t about what’s fair to Franken, but what’s fair to the rest of us."

One can make a strong argument that the fair thing is for Franken to resign. His behavior is inexcusable and should not be tolerated.

But Goldberg is saying that, fair or unfair, Franken must be sacrificed for the larger good. This is a very weak argument. It is the same argument that capital punishment advocates make, that fair or unfair to the perpetrator, it's what's fair for the community that is more important.

It's better to stick to the original argument -- there must be zero tolerance for this kind of behavior and he must resign. That is the fair result for the perpetrator. But arguing that an example must be made for the community regardless of fairness, which is what Goldberg is proposing, is what oppressive Republicans do. I don't think progressives should go down that path.

Goldberg's argument sounds a lot better if you just remove the sentence "The question isn’t about what’s fair to Franken, but what’s fair to the rest of us."
posted by JackFlash at 8:40 AM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


> So instead, the egghead liberal elites leave the country (we might call it brain drain, they call it a feature) and get educated / careers elsewhere. And the "real" America does....what? Just grow guns for a living?

The children of the rich go to university, as is their birthright. The rest of us serve the elite, as is our duty.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:41 AM on November 17, 2017 [28 favorites]


Nate Silver, 538: Democrats Missed A Chance To Draw A Line In The Sand On Sexual Misconduct
...I didn’t necessarily expect Franken to resign immediately or without putting up a fight. But barring some highly exculpatory evidence, I expected Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and other prominent Democrats to be pushing Franken out the door.

....I thought the Democrats had an opportunity to maintain the moral high ground without having to pay a political price for it....

Of course, what might be politically expedient for Democrats isn’t necessarily expedient for Schumer....If there’s a precedent that sexual harassment is grounds for removal or resignation from office, then a lot of members of Congress — including some of Schumer’s colleagues and friends — could have to resign once more allegations come to light, as they almost certainly will...Politics is a male-dominated institution, and a conservative institution, and conservative, male-dominated institutions have pretty much no interest in flipping over the sexual harassment rock and seeing what comes crawling out from underneath it.
posted by nangar at 8:44 AM on November 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


@TopherSpiro: BREAKING: Murkowski is a no on the tax bill unless Alexander-Murray passes first. (NARRATOR: It won't.)
posted by zombieflanders at 8:49 AM on November 17, 2017 [51 favorites]


Guys! Good morning! I am fired up, but unfortunately I am motivated by shame today - I discovered last night that I have a minor personal connection to Brett Talley, the odious AL judicial candidate. It's just a friend-of-a-friend kind of thing, but some of our mutual friends are lobbying to get him confirmed. Because that's the kind of guys they are, apparently. I must counter their efforts!

I will obviously contact my senators, but they are both solid dems who we can probably count on to vote no on this nomination. If you have republican senators, PLEASE reach out and ask them to vote no on Brett Talley! Here are some talking points:
  • He is unanimously regarded as "unqualified" by the non-partisan American Bar Association and probably only got nominated because he is married to a white house insider (which he failed to disclose on his confirmation forms)
  • He also failed to disclose his online writings on the forms despite the specific request for such items. All these knowing failures to disclose info show he has poor judgment - exactly the opposite of what you want in a federal judge
  • And finally the CONTENT of those online postings included a defense of the KKK, along with lies about how "they weren't racist at the time"
Hopefully even republican senators (at least those outside the south) can agree that an unqualified KKK-defender should not be confirmed.

Thanks in advance to any who call or write about this. If you get any traction with any republicans, I'd love to hear what worked, either in thread or via MeMail.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 8:55 AM on November 17, 2017 [25 favorites]


The children of the rich go to university, as is their birthright. The rest of us serve the elite, as is our duty.

New Feudalism: It’s not evil. It’s that province of Canada you keep forgetting.
posted by Talez at 8:55 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


Politics is a male-dominated institution, and a conservative institution, and conservative, male-dominated institutions have pretty much no interest in flipping over the sexual harassment rock and seeing what comes crawling out from underneath it.

I think this is a good point - it could very well be that many in the Democratic establishment don't want too much digging into their own pasts. Obviously, there are many men who have never harassed women, but I am sure there are those who committed what we would now call sexual harassment and back in the day was just boys will be boys.

Yet another reason why it's important for Democrats to build a deep and diverse bench. We need to be able to promote women (and POC, and LGBT people) and get them to where they can win House and Senate positions or take over in case of resignations.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:57 AM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


Rich Republicans, as far as fictional characters go, increasingly remind me more of Smaug from The Hobbit than anything else.

They sit on vast amounts of money, a large amount of it stolen or taken from poorer and more vulnerable people, but they still think of it as theirs and that they earned it. They don't really do anything with the money to benefit or give back to the communities around them - but they also won't hesitate to destroy more vulnerable people and communities to enrich themselves further, and they won't tolerate parting with or sharing a single coin.

(Firedrakes of Morgoth shouldn't have to pay taxes! Taxes are for Elves and Hobbits!)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:00 AM on November 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


I discovered last night that I have a minor personal connection to Brett Talley, the odious AL judicial candidate. It's just a friend-of-a-friend kind of thing, but some of our mutual friends are lobbying to get him confirmed.

A gentle suggestion: maybe reexamine whether you should consider people trying to get a fascist blogger seated as a judge for the next 60 years to be your friends.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:01 AM on November 17, 2017 [27 favorites]


So Murkowski is a no.

Collins seems a very probable no, especially after Maine overwhelmingly passed Medicaid expansion and the tax bill is now a de facto healthcare bill.

So we need one from:

McCain - making noises about regular order. And hates Trump.

Corker - making noises about blowing up the deficit. And hates Trump.

Johnson - says he's a no but will most likely cave.

Any other possibilities?
posted by chris24 at 9:02 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Congress Considering Concealed Carry Reciprocity Law (NPR, Nov. 16, 2017) -- Congress is considering a bill that would allow a person with a concealed carry permit in one state to legally carry the gun in another state, even if that state has stricter requirements for getting a permit.

Senator Toomey, he who ran as a "moderate" on guns, supports this bill. If I weren't so busy calling him about his damn tax scam, I'd be yelling at him about this. I swear, that man is exhausting.
posted by mcduff at 9:02 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


> Rich Republicans, as far as fictional characters go, increasingly remind me more of Smaug from The Hobbit than anything else.

They're not hoarding money for the sake of hoarding money. They're keeping resources away from us so that they can buy our time cheaper, and so we'll by necessity be more pleasingly submissive when they allow us to serve them.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:02 AM on November 17, 2017 [51 favorites]


I wonder how tightly this bill is written. Seems like there might be the possibility Kansans could go packing in all 50 states sans permit if the law is loose enough. And if Kansans can, then I'd imagine places like Texas would quickly follow suit for their own citizens.

As written the law only forces reciprocity on states that allow concealed carry to begin with. We could see blue states who have adopted a may issue switch over to banning CCWs entirely if they push forward with a national law. The NRA could be shooting itself in the foot massively in their quest to import Kansas into Massachusetts.
posted by Talez at 9:04 AM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


alternately they could be planning on whipping up a GUN GRABBERS COMING FOR YER GUNS1!1!1! frenzy in response to CCW bans in states that don't want to be forced into reciprocity with Kansas.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:07 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


The Gop Tax Bill is What Post-Popularity Democracy Looks Like
We're now living in an era of post-popularity democracy. Republicans simply believe, with good reason, that they don't need popular proposals in order to retain power. They believe they can survive extraordinarily unpopular proposals, because gerrymandering, vote suppression, disciplined propaganda efforts by Fox News and the rest of the right-wing media, and massive amounts of money from the plutocrats who like what they propose will get them through.

At this point, it almost doesn't matter what they do, because their voters care only about who they are -- or, rather, who they aren't. They're not Democrats. Democrats are evil. Republican voters will put up with anything from their party's elected officials as long as those officials make clear that they're defying the wishes of the hated Democrats. [...]

When you work people up into this state of rage, they'll accept anything that comes from the enemies of their enemies. Including a tax bill that punishes them the way the GOP bill does.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:09 AM on November 17, 2017 [62 favorites]


Any other possibilities?

Flake? He hates Trump's guts and seems to have little chance of re-election, at any rate.
posted by Freon at 9:16 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


Corker - making noises about blowing up the deficit. And hates Trump.

Not only consistently making noises on deficit, but since he's not running for re-election he doesn't have any wealthy donors he needs to please. And it'd be a great FU to Trump.

Murkowski coming out as a No makes me think this bill is probably already dead. Not passing something looks bad, sure, but passing this garbage bill is definitely suicide for purple Republicans in 2018.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:18 AM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


I did my faxing this morning. Once, again, here's an easy way to do yours: FaxZero your senators and a few others while you're at it.
posted by Dashy at 9:19 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


> When you work people up into this state of rage, they'll accept anything that comes from the enemies of their enemies. Including a tax bill that punishes them the way the GOP bill does.

Plus, they can just blame it all on the Democrats and their base will believe it, anyway. Your tax bill went up? It's the Democrats' fault (somehow)! You can't afford health care any more? Democrats. Haven't been able to find a job in two years? Fox News said the Democrats are to blame. Better keep voting Republican!
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:19 AM on November 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


I think it would be good in general if we can all think of "being in public life" as purely a privilege and not a right. Suppose the end result of Franken's actions were somehow that he can't get any more work as a professional liberal, whether in comedy or politics, and he has to scrape by on savings or join a temp agency or something. If that's a "punishment", then what does that say about American society's actual, you know, underclass? The people picking up your garbage or standing behind your checkout counter -- did they hurt someone to get where they are, or did they never have a choice in the matter? And that's not to mention the numerous boundary-respecting women and men who could take Franken's place. (Hey, lookit, a potential zone of awkward agreement between the class-focused and kyriarchy-focused wings of the left...)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:21 AM on November 17, 2017 [28 favorites]


It’s not worth it. The question isn’t about what’s fair to Franken, but what’s fair to the rest of us. I would mourn Franken’s departure from the Senate, but I think he should go, and the governor should appoint a woman to fill his seat.

I agree with this wholeheartedly with one key difference: Franken should publicly encourage the governor to replace him with a woman. He has an opportunity to show what it really means to try to make things right, and it would be immensely powerful for him to say he's part of the problem, and the only solution is to give women more voice.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:25 AM on November 17, 2017 [30 favorites]


In the spirit of those who've had the most impact for better or worse, Time Magazine ought to make The Sex Offender its Men of the Year. The front page could be a montage of prominent persons, Trump and Cosby in the prime positions. Then Trump can claim he made Man of the Year two years in a row.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:28 AM on November 17, 2017 [54 favorites]


So, I'm in Kentucky, and I've called on occasion despite my deep conviction that my Senators will not listen to me no matter what (and in particular Rand Paul, who can sometimes be brought around to disagree with things I hate for reasons I wouldn't agree with, must be salivating at the notion of deep Medicare cuts and generally cutting every single aspect of the government, so I don't see how what I could say would be convincing), but here's an angle I'm curious about playing locally: what are the implications of making tuition waivers and the like taxable on student athletes? Paul won't give a shit about killing our grad enrollment, but he just might bring himself to worry about how his constituents would respond if he kills the basketball program.
posted by jackbishop at 9:30 AM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


They sit on vast amounts of money, a large amount of it stolen or taken from poorer and more vulnerable people, but they still think of it as theirs and that they earned it. They don't really do anything with the money to benefit or give back to the communities around them - but they also won't hesitate to destroy more vulnerable people and communities to enrich themselves further, and they won't tolerate parting with or sharing a single coin.

This is where I think the dwarves really missed an opportunity to introduce Smaug to the fractional banking system.

Also, Smaug, buddy, they were literally mining more gold out of the mountain before you killed them all. If you'd just let them keep working I'm sure they'll let you sit on it. Added security and all.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:36 AM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


Paul won't give a shit about killing our grad enrollment, but he just might bring himself to worry about how his constituents would respond if he kills the basketball program.

One angle you could pursue would be athletic department donations. Most big-time football and basketball programs require sizable donations to the athletic department in order to then have the opportunity to buy season tickets. The tickets themselves aren't tax-deductible, but the bulk of the required accompanying donation is (and the donation is usually much larger than the ticket cost). The House tax bill would make those donations no longer tax-deductible.
posted by bassooner at 9:40 AM on November 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


In the spirit of those who've had the most impact for better or worse, Time Magazine ought to make The Sex Offender its Men of the Year.

I don't think the Koch brothers would stand for that since they are buying Time.
posted by yoga at 9:43 AM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


Well the Air Force drew a giant dong over D.C. in contrails today, apparently. I am spending far too much time wondering why.
posted by angrycat at 9:45 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


Well the Air Force drew a giant dong over D.C. in contrails today, apparently

Wrong Washington. It was over Okanogan County, Washington. Done by pilots from NAS Whidbey.
posted by Fleebnork at 9:47 AM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


Well the Air Force drew a giant dong over D.C. in contrails today, apparently. I am spending far too much time wondering why.

Wrong Washington
posted by mrnutty at 9:48 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


Really? The Navy did it over Washington State yesterday.

Naval Air Station Whidbey Island has claimed responsibility for the drawing, telling the station in an email that it finds "this absolutely unacceptable, of zero training value and we are holding the crew accountable."

It's also totes hilarious
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:48 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


Florida Democratic Party Chair resigns over sexual behavior.

With "Democrat Party" in the first line, which is irritating for a "news" organization.
posted by ctmf at 9:50 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


Honestly, I'd rather our airforce be doing this that bombing weddings overseas.

And I giggled a bit, which is not something I usually do when the military is involved.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:50 AM on November 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


Naval Air Station Whidbey Island has claimed responsibility for the drawing, telling the station in an email that it finds "this absolutely unacceptable, of zero training value and we are holding the crew accountable."

Sounds like the crew's visit to captain's mast will be more than made up for by the accolades of their peers.
posted by ocschwar at 9:51 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


Well the Air Force drew a giant dong over D.C. in contrails today, apparently. I am spending far too much time wondering why.

Wrong Washington

Aw, man...We never get all the fun.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:54 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


absolutely unacceptable, of zero training value

The assignment was dickbutt.
posted by ctmf at 9:56 AM on November 17, 2017 [22 favorites]


Contrail genitals may be funny, but with the confluence of current stories it seems to me like this could also be seen as another symptom of the patriarchy "waving its dick", uninvited, at innumerable non-dick-having people.
posted by achrise at 9:57 AM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


Wrong Washington

Aw, man...We never get all the fun.

D.C. keeps their giant dicks in the halls of government instead of the sky.
posted by Freon at 9:58 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


An update on the story about the Texas woman who was threatened by a county sheriff on Facebook because of her 'Fuck Trump' car sticker: she's now in jail.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:58 AM on November 17, 2017 [27 favorites]


Goldstone's resurfaced, and this time it's not the "Crown Prosecutor of Russia" that he's talking to.

Robert Windrem, NBC: Rob Goldstone ready to come to U.S. and talk to Mueller

The British publicist who helped set up the fateful meeting between Donald Trump Jr. and a group of Russians at Trump Tower in June 2016 is ready to meet with Special Prosecutor Robert Mueller's office, according to several people familiar with the matter.

Rob Goldstone has been living in Bangkok, Thailand, but has been communicating with Mueller's office through his lawyer, said a source close to Goldstone.

Goldstone's New York lawyer, G. Robert Gage, declined to comment other than to say, "nothing is presently scheduled."

However, sources close to Goldstone and familiar with the investigation say they expect he will travel to the United States at some point "in the near future," as one put it.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:59 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


My 11-year-old daughter and I just drove 1 & 1/2 hours each way so she could ask Jody Hice (our Congressman, sadly) why he finally decided to withdraw his support for Roy Moore. He told her that he found the allegations "of what Moore did 40 years ago troubling," and felt better just letting the people of Alabama work it out for themselves.

After the meeting we were talking and Hice said he knew Roy Moore personally and had "the utmost respect" for him, and really didn't know what to believe about the allegations.
I told him that the specificity of the stories, and their similarities, had me convinced that the 7 women were telling the truth about what happened to them. I told him I'd read that it was well known in Gadsen, Alabama, to watch out for Moore -- that the girls who worked at the mall told each other to hide whenever he came around.

Jody Hice countered that he had been to Alabama many times and knew many representatives there, and none of them had ever told him anything about Moore being a pedophile.

I asked him how he could retract his support for Moore and still support a man like Trump, who bragged on tape about how he moved on a married woman like a bitch. "How am I supposed to teach her right and wrong when our president sets a tone that says this is OK, and people like you are supporting Roy Moore?" I asked, pointing to my daughter.

"It's a sick culture," he said, shaking his head. "I just don't know what to do about it."

"You could start by refusing to support a man who talks like this," I said.

"I tell you," he said, "This kind of thing goes all the way back to Bill Clinton. I just wish I had a magic wand I could wave to make it all go away."

"Bill Clinton was impeached for this kind of thing, remember?" I asked. "And you do have a magic wand -- it's your vote. You actually LITERALLY DO have the power to stand up and say you're not going to enable people like Trump and Moore."

I told him that I hoped at his next appointment -- unveiling documents (among them the 10 Commandments) "foundational to American law and governance" -- he'd just take a moment to reflect on whether the values espoused by Trump were consistent with what we say our American values are, and what the 10 Commandments tell us. He said he would.

He won't.
posted by staggering termagant at 10:01 AM on November 17, 2017 [135 favorites]


Contrail genitals may be funny, but with the confluence of current stories it seems to me like this could also be seen as another symptom of the patriarchy "waving its dick", uninvited, at innumerable non-dick-having people.

We should start drawing butts on things. Butts are just as hilarious as genitals, and they're not gendered.

Yeah, yeah, eponywhatever.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:01 AM on November 17, 2017 [35 favorites]


Nobody Knows Where Trump's Leftover Inauguration Funds Went (Newsweek) "Trump's inaugural committee made several vows to the media throughout 2017 that it would release the remaining funds to charity organizations, including a promise of $3 million for hurricane relief efforts after several storms ravaged Texas, Florida, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands. Newsweek did not find a single charitable donation the group provided to any of the charities Barrack named as candidates for those funds, including the American Red Cross, the Salvation Army and Samaritan’s Purse."

Nothing to add except, grifters gonna grift.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:04 AM on November 17, 2017 [32 favorites]


Regarding the story about the Texas woman with the Fuck Trump sticker mentioned upthread by @Atom Eyes: I would totally contribute money to helping buy a crapton of those stickers and having more drivers in that town put them on their cars.
posted by StrawberryPie at 10:06 AM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


An update on the story about the Texas woman who was threatened by a county sheriff on Facebook because of her 'Fuck Trump' car sticker: she's now in jail.

PSA: if you're going to put a giant "please hassle me" sign on your truck you should make sure you clear up those warrants first:
A Texas woman who refused to remove a "Fuck Trump" decal from her truck after being called out by a sheriff on Facebook has been arrested on a previous outstanding warrant.

Karen Fonseca was arrested Thursday afternoon for possession and use of a fake identification, jail records show.
posted by scalefree at 10:08 AM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


It's also totes hilarious

If it had been a drawing of a dick somebody gave to a specific person, it might have been sexual harassment but because it was broadcast to a bigger audience without any care or thought given to how any particular individual seeing it might receive the message, that makes it "hilarious" instead of abusive? I feel like I need an adult to sit down and explain everything about what being an adult is supposed to be about all over again to me lately because I swear it doesn't seem like any of this stuff makes much sense anymore.

Franken's joke picture wasn't funny for obvious reasons. Why's a big sky-written dick pic funny?
posted by saulgoodman at 10:14 AM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


Regarding the story about the Texas woman with the Fuck Trump sticker mentioned upthread by @Atom Eyes: I would totally contribute money to helping buy a crapton of those stickers and having more drivers in that town put them on their cars.

This shit is insane. Like I'd never put such a tacky sticker on my car but do you have any idea how many vulgar obama-related stickers I was subjected to while living in Georgia and Southwest PA during the last 8 years? Fucking snowflakes for real.
posted by dis_integration at 10:18 AM on November 17, 2017 [46 favorites]


no weird power differential
posted by angrycat at 10:19 AM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


crude dick drawings are funny. sorry, they just are
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:19 AM on November 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


PSA: if you're going to put a giant "please hassle me" sign on your truck you should make sure you clear up those warrants first

Y'know what?

FUCK. THAT. NOISE.

She's been stopped and hassled and harassed multiple times by the cops. Her 1st Amendment rights have been threatened, as well as receiving direct intimidation by an obviously politically-motivated police department. All they needed was an excuse to go after her, and if they hadn't found one, I guaran-fucking-tee you they would have ginned one up.

Reference: every PoC police stop.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:19 AM on November 17, 2017 [60 favorites]


We should start drawing butts on things. Butts are just as hilarious as genitals, and they're not gendered.

Why not both?
posted by Talez at 10:20 AM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


It's perhaps funnier in song.

PEEEENIS IN THE SKY, KEEP ON TURNIIIIN'
I DON'T KNOW WHERE I'LL BE TOMORRRRRROW
posted by delfin at 10:20 AM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


Why's a big sky-written dick pic funny?

Because it's a big sky-written dick.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 10:22 AM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


Michael Winship, BillMoyers.com: Revenge Is a Rotten Way to Run a Country
Yielding to one of the basest of human impulses, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are subverting Western society and democracy.
...
Revenge, as the saying goes, is a dish best served cold. Putin the ex-KGB colonel apparently is taking his time, coolly mastering an operation effectively waging a cold cyberwar not only against the United States but Western nations in general.

As for Trump (who refuses to acknowledge that anything is wrong and who for whatever reasons will never criticize Putin) and right-wing media outlets like Fox News and Breitbart (which are further spreading the fake news ginned up by Russian bots), if they think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship, they are — surprise! — deluded.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:29 AM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


no weird power differential

Random people all have access to jets to do skywriting with?

On the bumpersticker thing, I hate all political and ideological bumperstickers because to me they're basically unjustifiable provocations directed at random strangers that don't do any good whatsoever for anybody but there's no excuse for how that poor woman has been treated, and yes, absolutely, the bumperstickers on the right have been much worse and more offensive for years now.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:30 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


I simply don't understand how ordinary people think tax cuts to the Thiels and Trumps (and having money taken from them to fund those tax cuts) would benefit them in any way.

The "trickle down" theory still has a lot of adherents, for starters. But I also think we can't overlook pure spite as a factor. Mark Ames is problematic as hell, but in the Trump era in find myself going back again and again to a piece he wrote during the 2004 presidential campaign, which dissects this.
If Republican billionaires enjoy their wealth, they sure as hell hide it well. As far as one can tell, Republican billionaires genuinely like working 18-hour days in offices, and attending dreary charity dinners. More importantly, it’s hard for us to imagine that these stuffy gray-haired plutocrats have interesting sex lives—nothing inspires murderous envy more than someone else’s great sex life, which is why a celebrity is so much more viscerally hateful than the richest, meanest plutocrat. These right-wing billionaires’ idea of having fun is a day on the golf green (a game as slow and frustrating as a day in the office) or attending conferences with other sleazy, cheerless Calvinist billionaires. If that’s what all their wealth got them, let ’em have it–so says the spite bloc. This explains why the Republican elite–the only true and all-powerful elite in America today–is not considered an “elitist” class in the spleens of the white male have-nots. Elitism as defined today is a synonym for “happy,” not “rich” or “powerful.” Happiness is the scarcest resource of all, not money. And the happy supply has been cornered by the beautiful, famous and wealthy coastal elite, the ones who never age, and who are just so damned concerned for the have-nots’ well-being. In that sense, you can see how the Republicans were able to successfully manipulate the meaning of “elitism” to suit their needs. They weren’t just selling dogshit to the credulous masses; they were selling pancreatic balm to the needy.

At the other end of the economic spectrum, non-millionaires who vote Republican know all-too-well that the country is not theirs. They are mere wage-slave fodder, so their only hope is to vote for someone who makes the very happiest people’s lives a little less happy. If I’m an obese 40-something white male living in Ohio or Nevada, locked into a permanent struggle with foreclosure, child support payments and diabetes, then I’m going to vote for the guy who delivers a big greasy portion of misery to the Sarandon-Robbins dining room table, then brags about it on FoxNews. Even if it means hurting myself in the process.
Also,

The children of the rich go to university, as is their birthright. The rest of us serve the elite, as is our duty.

It's not surprising that the former group would support such a social order, but we ignore at our peril how many of the common folk would be okay with that as well. Again, partly because of spite and the feeling that things are already FUBAR for them regardless, and partly because a lot of people are just natural reactionaries who love the idea of being able to Know Their Place, even if it's down there on the mudsill.
posted by non canadian guy at 10:32 AM on November 17, 2017 [22 favorites]


In the spirit of those who've had the most impact for better or worse, Time Magazine ought to make The Sex Offender its Men of the Year.

I don't think the Koch brothers would stand for that since they are buying Time.

This reply is late but every report on it has missed a key aspect, IMO. Meredith owns at least 15 TV stations in some important markets. I would not be surprised if THAT is what the Kochs are actually interested in.
posted by scottatdrake at 10:34 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


Josh Marshal's take on expelling Roy Moore from the Senate should he be elected:
The ability for a house of Congress to expel one of its own members is a power so great that it contains within it the power to overturn our entire system of government. Our whole system of government is based on the idea that the people of individual states decide who will represent them in the Senate rather than the Senate deciding who will or won’t represent a given state.
...
Fifteen senators have been expelled from the Senate in the history of the country...Each of the fifteen was expelled for treason, making war against the country itself, something that makes legitimately being a part of the government an impossibility.
...
As I stated above, this is not to defend Moore who was obviously an ogre well before we found out about his penchant for teenage girls. But we have a separate interest in not casually using extreme powers for reasons of momentary expediency – and that is what it is for Republicans right now.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:35 AM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


OK, on reading @dis_integration's comment upthread and also @saulgoodman's comment, I withdraw what I said, and agree it is better not to descend into bumper sticker warfare. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote what I wrote.
posted by StrawberryPie at 10:37 AM on November 17, 2017


What? No. He's not only packing the courts as fast as he can (as T.D. Strange notes), but he's remaking the judiciary to be far more white, male, and right-wing loony at a rate not seen in decades.

This is why it's better to impeach Trump for corruption-related charges ( > money laundering > resigning > losing next election). It provides some rational basis (if not mechanism) for reconsidering all his appointments. Subject them all to Senate re-confirmation?

Re: the tuition thing - It's definitely an attack on perceived-Liberal institutions and nothing else. Big cities, Blue States, and Universities. Grouped together in the bulls-eye. At this point, I would expect to see a tax penalty for moving out of your hometown, since travel tends to make people more liberal.
posted by ctmf at 10:38 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


This seems large. Is this large?

Linley Sanders, Newsweek: Trump knew Papadopoulos would meet with foreigners, ex-aide claims

The Trump campaign official who admitted he met with Russians to get "dirt" on Hillary Clinton claims President Donald Trump knew that he intended to meet with foreign nationals.

[...] Marianna Kakaounaki, an investigative reporter for the Greek newspaper Kathimerini, said Papadopoulos told her that Trump called him personally after he was hired to the campaign in March 2016. Trump later met with Papadopoulos one-on-one, when the aide told Trump about his ongoing efforts to set up a meeting between Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin, Kakaounaki said.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:39 AM on November 17, 2017 [38 favorites]


A lot of voter regulations on minimum residency seem to be devoted to minimizing the effect of college age voters who are only in town to go to college or university.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:40 AM on November 17, 2017 [20 favorites]


I would expect to see a tax penalty for moving out of your hometown, since travel tends to make people more liberal.

"Say goodbye to the deduction for moving expenses. It goes away in 2018, except for members of the military."
posted by chris24 at 10:41 AM on November 17, 2017 [50 favorites]


Oh, it totally is. My very liberal college was in a small town and there was much teeth-gnashing by the local GOP politicians about how we weren't Real Citizens of the town.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:43 AM on November 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


It seems that certain parts of America have decided a long time ago that all Americans are equal, but some are more equal than others.

What is the best way to fight the Kochs and Thiels and Trumps and Mercers, if everything is stacked in their favor, and they have the money and manipulation and power and megaphones to get their way? I don't want to sound hopeless, but all this is infuriating. How can we stop them if they have all that on their side?
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 10:44 AM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


*which definitely had an undertone of Real Citizens = straight and white, although even the straight white students among us were "East Coast elites" or whatever. Or "New Yorkers."
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:44 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


This seems large. Is this large?

In a sane world, yes. In 2017? We'll probably be talking about something else within the hour.
posted by diogenes at 10:44 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Politico, Nahal Toosi, Corker-Tillerson alliance frays. "No fucks" Sen. Corker still chairs Foreign Relations, and he's not remotely happy seeing the State Department dismantled. Things got even worse when some of Tillerson aides shared a presentation on their plants, a document consisting entirely of management consultant noise about the process rather than any concrete suggestion as to actions they might take. Of course, Trump doesn't care about the State Department, because he says "I’m the only one that matters."

WaPo op-ed, Michael Gerson, The Russia investigation’s spectacular accumulation of lies:
There is the narrative of a campaign in which high-level operatives believed that Russian espionage could help secure the American presidency, and acted on that belief. There is the narrative of deception to conceal the nature and extent of Russian ties. And there is the narrative of a president attempting to prevent or shut down the investigation of those ties and soliciting others for help in that task.

In all of this, there is a spectacular accumulation of lies. Lies on disclosure forms. Lies at confirmation hearings. Lies on Twitter. Lies in the White House briefing room. Lies to the FBI. Self-protective lies by the attorney general. Blocking and tackling lies by Vice President Pence. This is, with a few exceptions, a group of people for whom truth, political honor, ethics and integrity mean nothing.
...
But the implications of all this are not only legal and political. We are witnessing what happens when right-wing politics becomes untethered from morality and religion.

What does public life look like without the constraining internal force of character — without the firm ethical commitments often (though not exclusively) rooted in faith? It looks like a presidential campaign unable to determine right from wrong and loyalty from disloyalty. It looks like an administration engaged in a daily assault on truth and convinced that might makes right. It looks like the residual scum left from retreating political principle — the worship of money, power and self-promoted fame. The Trumpian trinity.
Remember the story about Trump sending Christie out for McDonald's during the campaign? Sam Nunberg says he made it up to embarrass Christie:
Christie agreed to helm the transition, but he craved a certain spot in the administration: attorney general. And he didn’t get it. Instead, he suffered a series of fresh humiliations.

There was the time Trump told a large crowd in Christie’s home state that the governor would no longer eat Oreos. There was the time The New Yorker reported an aide saying that Trump had made Christie fetch him McDonald’s, a nugget that instantly went viral. (Sam Nunberg, a former Trump aide, told me he made up the story to embarrass Christie—and that it spread like wildfire. “The sad reality is that it was believable,” Nunberg said, chuckling.)
The meatloaf story will always be true to me though, no matter what anyone says.
posted by zachlipton at 10:45 AM on November 17, 2017 [40 favorites]


TPM: Norm Coleman: I’d Have Beaten Franken In ’08 If Groping Photo Had Come Out. Franken's first election triggered a massive and prolonged recount.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:46 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'm not sure what's more sad:
a) Trump made me fetch McDonalds for him and I didn't quit
b) Trump's people humiliated me to millions by making up embarrassing stories, and I didn't quit
posted by ctmf at 10:51 AM on November 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


"No fucks" Sen. Corker still chairs Foreign Relations, and he's not remotely happy seeing the State Department dismantled

Again, Trump/Tillerson are not "mismanaging" or neglecting the State Department. Destruction of State and American soft power is part of the payoff to Russia in return for helping Trump steal the election. Tillerson is Putin's man. The entire State Department is being sabotaged from inside after being taken over by an enemy government, aided and abetted by Republicans like Bob Corker.

Bob Corker knew this the entire time while covering for Trump before he suddenly found 1/100th of a spine in retirement.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:52 AM on November 17, 2017 [38 favorites]


What is the best way to fight the Kochs and Thiels and Trumps and Mercers, if everything is stacked in their favor, and they have the money and manipulation and power and megaphones to get their way? I don't want to sound hopeless, but all this is infuriating. How can we stop them if they have all that on their side?
First, we set up democratically elected workers' councils...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:57 AM on November 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


SF Chronicle with a national scoop, Trisha Thadani, Trump administration has plans to wipe out work permits for H-1B spouses
The Trump administration has plans to stop granting work permits to spouses of H-1B holders, a move that would overturn a 2015 rule and affect thousands of foreigners currently in the United States, according to sources who have spoken to The Chronicle about the move.

About 100,000 spouses and children of H-1B visa holders come to the U.S. on H-4 visas each year, a number that has been steadily increasing since 2012. Before President Barack Obama created a work permit for certain H-4 visa holders in 2015, these foreigners — often women — were not allowed to hold a job here or be issued a Social Security number.

From October 2015 to September 2016, 41,526 people were approved for the work authorization. Complete figures for the most recent government fiscal year, which ended in September, are not yet available.
We started issuing work permits two years ago and people arranged their lives around that, but whatever, let's just stop that now to punish foreigners.
posted by zachlipton at 10:57 AM on November 17, 2017 [47 favorites]


ZeusHumms: "A lot of voter regulations on minimum residency seem to be devoted to minimizing the effect of college age voters who are only in town to go to college or university."

When I lived in State College, PA, the city council was all elected at-large which was effective at keeping students off the council since there were enough townies who voted to outnumber the students. Not sure if they've changed that since the '80s.
posted by octothorpe at 10:59 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


Again, partly because of spite and the feeling that things are already FUBAR for them regardless, and partly because a lot of people are just natural reactionaries who love the idea of being able to Know Their Place, even if it's down there on the mudsill.

Some people sit in shit and hate the people who put them in the shit.

Other people sit in shit, look at other people in similar shit, and fume because THOSE PEOPLE aren't buried much deeper.
posted by delfin at 10:59 AM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


Some people sit in shit and hate the people who put them in the shit.

Other people sit in shit, look at other people in similar shit, and fume because THOSE PEOPLE aren't buried much deeper.

It goes on and on, I don't know what I want
On and on, I don't know if I want it
On and on, I don't know what I want
On and on, I don't know if I want it
posted by fluttering hellfire at 11:02 AM on November 17, 2017


Ok the awful has become overwhelming today. I'm going to send out a resistbot message about the tax plan to my congresspeople and then nope out of politics until Monday. I need a quarter-Scaramuchi to recover.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:06 AM on November 17, 2017 [15 favorites]


then nope out of politics until Monday

If you notice that for some reason we've burned through two threads over the weekend, you may never want to yep back in.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:10 AM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


> Again, partly because of spite and the feeling that things are already FUBAR for them regardless, and partly because a lot of people are just natural reactionaries who love the idea of being able to Know Their Place, even if it's down there on the mudsill.

and also, life is a terrifying thing and making decisions for oneself is difficult and anxiety-producing and it's easier just to do what authorities tell you to than it is to consider what's right and wrong on your own.

And then when those authorities reveal themselves as morally sick, when they abuse you, when they use you up and throw you in the trash, you're in too deep to do anything but follow them anyway. You've spent your life not listening to your own moral compass, and so you're out of practice. Maybe you've forgotten that you have a moral compass at all. And you're embarrassed, so embarrassed; you've spent the best years of your life working against your own interests, working against the interests of your kids, working for the interests of men who never deserved your loyalty or your labor. You've been taken for a ride. you've been taken for the biggest ride there is. Your only way to save face is to pretend you don't know what you know. Your only way to save face is to double down on supporting the folks who've ripped you off, who've ruined your life, who are ruining your childrens' lives. You tell yourself it's the way of the world, it's what everyone does, it's what the world wants, it's what God wants. And you say "render unto Caesar" as you feed your children into Moloch, and you lash out at anyone who does otherwise, who through their disobedience wrecks the illusion that disobedience is impossible.

Something like that.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:11 AM on November 17, 2017 [33 favorites]


But mostly it's the shit.
posted by delfin at 11:13 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


So that's repugnant, and also somehow relevant: wealthy couples in NYC need $190 million to keep their heads above water

It's never enough, is it? I only have 50 Million, I'm so poor I need a tax cut.
posted by ctmf at 11:13 AM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


So that's repugnant, and also somehow relevant: wealthy couples in NYC need $190 million to keep their heads above water

Staff: $150,000 annually for a driver, a chef, and a housekeeper.

50k/yr for working people employed by two Randites barely treading water on 190mil. Says everything there is to be said about America in 2017.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:16 AM on November 17, 2017 [60 favorites]


taking a quarter-mooch off sounds lovely to me as well...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:20 AM on November 17, 2017


Foreign Policy, Jenna McLaughlin, How Jared Kushner’s Newspaper Became a Favorite Outlet for WikiLeaks Election Hacks. Lots in here about the Observer and WikiLeaks, but this bit is buried inside and seems quite major:
A congressional source told FP that Kushner, during testimony on Capitol Hill, said he never had contact with Wikileaks or Assange — nor did anyone else on the campaign. In fact, the Atlantic reported this week that Donald Trump Jr. and Assange exchanged direct messages on Twitter during the campaign.
My understanding is that Don Jr. emailed this stuff around widely, including to Jared. So this certainly points to Jared lying to Congress.

So that's repugnant, and also somehow relevant: wealthy couples in NYC need $190 million to keep their heads above water

Business Insider is a 99% troll publication run by trolls that frequently publishes troll stories, like this one, to troll everyone. Its editor and CEO, Henry Blodget, was banned from the securities industry for life for fraud during the dot-com boom, yet somehow failed to get the message that being banned for life means you should shut the hell up and not start a media company covering the same industry you just personally helped destroy. In conclusion, Josh Barro also sucks.
posted by zachlipton at 11:20 AM on November 17, 2017 [24 favorites]


@johnson_carrie: "Is Ambassador Kislyak in the room? Anybody been to Russia?" AG Jeff Sessions asks to #FedSoc2017 crowd at the Mayflower Hotel.

Nothing matters to these people.
posted by zachlipton at 11:30 AM on November 17, 2017 [28 favorites]


SF Chronicle with a national scoop, Trisha Thadani, Trump administration has plans to wipe out work permits for H-1B spouses

"We keep hurting the poors and the foreigners and keep shoveling money to the wealth, but the economy just keeps chugging on like it did under Obama. Needs more hurting foreigners."
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:35 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


"Is Ambassador Kislyak in the room? Anybody been to Russia?" AG Jeff Sessions asks to #FedSoc2017 crowd at the Mayflower Hotel.

Is it constitutionally protected speech to shout “Liar!” in a crowded theater?
posted by Barack Spinoza at 11:35 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


zachlipton: @johnson_carrie: "Is Ambassador Kislyak in the room? Anybody been to Russia?" AG Jeff Sessions asks to #FedSoc2017 crowd at the Mayflower Hotel.

I would pay money for the crowd to yell back "We don't recall!"

Except that, too, would be understood as part of the "joke", wouldn't it? Because, yep, nothing matters.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 11:35 AM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


Another way to Make America Great Again? Import cars from China, with an oddly familiar name. With all the licensing deals he recently made with China, I'm surprised he isn't getting royalties from that line of cars.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:38 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


Business Insider is a 99% troll publication run by trolls that frequently publishes troll stories, like this one, to troll everyone. Its editor and CEO, Henry Blodget, was banned from the securities industry for life for fraud during the dot-com boom, yet somehow failed to get the message that being banned for life means you should shut the hell up and not start a media company covering the same industry you just personally helped destroy. In conclusion, Josh Barro also sucks.

I did not know this. I've actually been giving them a fair amount of credence primarily due to their innocuous, somewhat serious name. I will verify your facts & if they check out, stop doing so immediately.
posted by scalefree at 11:42 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


From the link: Wealthy couples in NYC need $190 million to keep their heads above water
They're also setting aside $25 million for each child to inherit.
I see your problem right there...
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:44 AM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


YCTAB can you ELI5?
posted by yoga at 11:48 AM on November 17, 2017


How can we stop them if they have all that on their side?
They will continue until their methods stop being effective or they experience adverse personal consequences.
posted by LarsC at 11:49 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


like if all of the legitimate institutions of government have been captured by fascists, the only options left are:
  1. Flee.
  2. Join up with counterinstitutions and get ready for some really unpleasant times.
We're not there yet, we're not close to there yet, but we're close enough to there that the no-foolin' answer to your question is "get involved with whatever socialist organization is least ineffective."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:49 AM on November 17, 2017 [26 favorites]


These people have power because they have money. If you want to reduce their power, the only two options are to remove their money or to separate power from money. Ideally, we should have a government that does things like that for us. Since we don't, well...

Join me on the barricades, comrade?
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:50 AM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


Too bad there's no way to seriously ask Metafilter fucking questions and get sincere answers.....

Ask MeFi is for asking questions that have definitive answers, not spitballing ideas & batting them around.
posted by scalefree at 11:51 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


Mod note: A few comments removed; please remember that MetaFilter and your fellow MeFites are not the enemy and bring the temperature down on interactions here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:51 AM on November 17, 2017 [14 favorites]


Everything Attorney General Jeff Sessions Has Forgotten Under Oath (Issie Lapowsky for Wired, Nov. 17, 2017)
During this week's House Judiciary Committee hearing, the attorney general's peculiarly porous memory inspired much frustration among members of Congress eager to pin Sessions down on critical facts relating to Russian efforts to tamper with the 2016 election. In his questioning, representative Hakeem Jeffries of New York noted that over the course of three hearings, Sessions had said "I don't recall," in some form, upwards of 85 times.

Some of that count includes duplicates, cases where Sessions answered the same question two or more times. But we checked the record and found 47 distinct instances in which Sessions conveniently drew a blank, including occasions where his answers changed slightly. Funny how that happens. Here's everything Jeff Sessions has forgotten under oath this year, along with some especially baffling direct quotes
Helpfully broken down by hearing, and numbered for future reference.

And this also serves as a tragic reminder of a number of awful actions by Trump and his administration (Sessions asked for the resignation of the 46 presidentially appointed US attorneys, some of whom learned via the media ... in March, not earlier into the Trump administration; and Trump personally interviewed U.S. attorney candidates, where one potential nominee would have jurisdiction over Trump Tower and be in a position to investigate the Trump administration in October 2017).
posted by filthy light thief at 11:52 AM on November 17, 2017 [20 favorites]


Papadopoulos told her that Trump called him personally after he was hired to the campaign in March 2016. Trump later met with Papadopoulos one-on-one, when the aide told Trump about his ongoing efforts to set up a meeting between Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin, Kakaounaki said.

One can only hope he told Mueller the same thing.

Come on, Mueller, we're dying over here!
posted by Dashy at 11:53 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


troll publication run by trolls that frequently publishes troll stories, like this one, to troll everyone

I will never understand how so many people are so terribly broken that making other people angry or miserable brings them happiness. Trolling is not being a fun prankster. It's being a lying asshole inciting various levels of misery.
posted by Servo5678 at 11:55 AM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


Just watched an exchange with Senators Brown and Hatch that was super hostile, with Brown saying look this tax bill fucks over x y and z why don't you admit it and Hatch just is all I TAKE GREAT ISSUE WITH YOUR SLANDER SIR and is all I come from the lower middle class as if that addresses any of the fucking issues, his humble origins. But you can see that he thinks it does, like, the fact of his humble beginnings is some sort of magic that will cause inquiries into the truth to fail.

If you haven't seen this, it's worth watching.

@JamilSmith
It’s clear @SenSherrodBrown hit a sore spot with @OrrinHatch here. He’s telling the truth about the Republican tax plan and its willfully harmful effects on the poor, and Hatch simply can’t deal. Note that he never actually rebuts Senator Brown's argument.

VIDEO
posted by chris24 at 11:57 AM on November 17, 2017 [52 favorites]


Well, you could spread the truth as loudly and as often as you can, but that's been tried repeatedly and doesn't work.

You can try violent revolution, but they can afford far more soldiers and much better weapons. So that doesn't work.

You can try reason and logic. You can try buying billboards and public-access cable time and ads on the sides of busses. You can paint yourself purple and dance in Times Square while singing the Oligarchs Suck Ass Song on ukelele. Still nope.

The sad thing is that what can be done, we are already doing most of the time. It's how we are still at the Hanging On by a Thread Stage instead of the 110% Fucked Stage.

So it goes.
posted by delfin at 11:57 AM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


Okay, yes, times are bad. Times have been bad in this country before. We're coming off of a long post WWII period of relative-sorta-kinda things being okay, but that doesn't mean things were always okay. How did people achieve social change before?

My short answer would be "organize as much as possible and wait for your historical moment". Remember that in 1920 media was consolidated and expensive and there was no internet - the media landscape now has new challenges but also new possibilities.

Join things. Join the DSA, join Indivisible, join the library board, join a bookgroup. Whatever you've got that is left of center, join that. Work on their campaigns, even if their campaigns aren't going to solve every problem. We have to keep hitting the right from every angle all the time.

Sign up for newsletters, read Facebook groups, read local papers, listen to podcasts. Find out what's happening and spread the word - talk to the people in the groups you've joined. Talk to people you know.

Take all the opportunities you get. Maybe you have the opportunity to be in a union or to support a ground-breaking political campaign. Maybe you just have the opportunity to sustain a liberal non-fiction bookgroup that meets at the town library.

What I always picture is either a pinata or a hallway full of doors. We have to keep hitting the pinata, and most of the time we'll hit it and nothing will happen except that the interior will invisibly soften and weaken, but eventually - and we don't know when - we'll split it open. Or picture running down a corridor full of closed doors - maybe most of those doors are locked, but some of them are going to open. You don't know which ones, but you have to keep trying all the doors.

Expect at least 80% of your efforts to be unsatisfying. That's normal. Keep slogging along because you don't know which 20% are going to pay off.

Very often you need at least one failed campaign before you win something. At my job, they tried to unionize in '91 and failed, but tried again in '96 and succeeded. You have to get through that failed campaign before you can win.

The robber barons and the slavocracy have had this country locked down before. This is not new and it's not the end.
posted by Frowner at 12:03 PM on November 17, 2017 [131 favorites]


And if 2016-17 has taught us anything, it's that trolling is very dangerous - it allows all kinds of horrible behavior to be waved away with "lol! I wasn't serious! Stop being so PC, snowflakes!" when the attitude behind the behavior is both serious and sincere and has very serious consequences for very real people.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:04 PM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


but yeah. honestly right now as far as actual for-reals political participation goes, I'm a total fraud — this year I'm in a ridiculously fast STEM-ey graduate program that's got me working like 14 hours a day,1 and my real political participation has been reduced to 1) resistbot and 2) throwing money at DSA. I'm more or less living vicariously through The Whelk at this point. so my real short answer to your question is "I dunno, ask The Whelk?"

1: basically it's fair whenever you see me delivering florid little commie sermons on metafilter to tell me to get back to work on math homework, cause if I'm here it's because the most immature parts of my brain are throwing a "NO MORE MATH MATH IS HARD" tantrum.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:04 PM on November 17, 2017 [16 favorites]


I will never understand how so many people are so terribly broken that making other people angry or miserable brings them happiness. Trolling is not being a fun prankster. It's being a lying asshole inciting various levels of misery.

It pays well in the internet age. There's a direct correlation from outrage generated -> number of clicks -> cold hard cash. That's really it. See the Macedonian teenagers getting rich off fake Clinton stories in October 2016. They're not doing it for the lulz (well, not solely), it's a lucrative career choice.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:05 PM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


They're also setting aside $25 million for each child to inherit.

But of course we need to get rid of the estate tax, because

*spins wheel*

A tiny portion of a tiny portion of Americans are only 10-millionaires and keeping wealth in those families is more important than giving those in need even a couple of crumbs.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:06 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


Metafilter: more or less living vicariously through The Whelk at this point.
posted by Melismata at 12:06 PM on November 17, 2017 [44 favorites]


Hatch is mad because he can't say his side. Nothing's more frustrating than having someone pin you in a corner because you can't say what you want to say. Like if we're arguing about a, I don't know, terrorist thing and you're wrong, but I can't say you are because everything I could say is classified. Hatch wants to say he's doing the best he can for the people within what he has the power to do. But he can't openly say what his limitations are and who's put them on him. And he knows Brown knows that and Brown is using that against him to make him look bad. That's why he's pissed.
posted by ctmf at 12:09 PM on November 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


First, I want to thank all of you for suffering through my literal fever ramblings yesterday as I decided that a good way to deal with delirium was to hang out on Metafilter.

So now that I'm coherent, or at least as coherent as I ever get, I... don't know what should be done about Franken. I'm actually persuaded by Frowner's comment yesterday that regardless of whether in a normal environment something like censure, etc, would be enough that this is more like a revolutionary environment and we have the chance to draw the most striking of distinctions with Republicans; you are the party of rape and assault and we are not.

On the other hand, my comments yesterday about what are very real reasons for not punishing every single instance of anything exactly the same regardless of whether a pattern, the facts of the offense, etc are still true. It really may well make it harder to purge government and other positions of power of harassers rather than easier as it would mean many, many fewer take responsibility.

So in summary... goddamit. I don't know. Certainly this is no Roy Moore situation.

As a political matter I think Franken's apology, his calling for an investigation into himself, and so on combined with Tweeden accepting his apology and even going so far as to publicly read on the View the private letter he sent to her, plus saying she doesn't want him to step down... I do think he will survive. And that will certainly provide a template for how someone should behave when confronted with a single instance of problematic behavior (a pattern and he'd have had to resign immediately) and I don't think that's a bad thing. But like I said, you folks made good points on the opposite side yesterday.

In conclusion, I am a land of contrasts.
posted by Justinian at 12:12 PM on November 17, 2017 [41 favorites]


I did not know this. I've actually been giving them a fair amount of credence primarily due to their innocuous, somewhat serious name. I will verify your facts & if they check out, stop doing so immediately.

I mean, I was venting there, so take it with some grains of salt. They're not, say, Gateway Pundit, their stories aren't literally fake, and some of their stuff is worth reading. Natasha Bertrand has been doing some great work on the Russia story.

I'd say the tests are "does this story exist to impart original new information?", "is this story just a rewrite of a #brand press release?" and "are they writing this just to make people angry on the internet?" They write a lot of stories that fail the final test, which is why I said they are trolls, and I find they write very little that doesn't fail these tests. They're chasing clicks, and few things produce clicks more than saying something stupid about rich people.

So yeah, maybe don't completely dismiss them entirely, but they churn out a ton of garbage.
posted by zachlipton at 12:15 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


Thank you to frowner, YCTAB and delfin for illuminating the basics for me/us.
posted by yoga at 12:16 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


Start at the bottom and work your way up. Local races are very important, as are statehouses and governorships. Study the smart things the "conservatives" did to gain ascendancy, while ignoring their idiocy. Remember, just a few decades ago, they were a laughing stock. They were persistent and worked all the levers as hard as they could. Sure, they had money, but the most important thing they did was build a grassroots movement. We can do that, too (and have already), but then it's down to how to use that movement.

Most people are good, though they may make bad choices *cough*Franken*cough*. Many feel helpless and don't vote or pay attention, largely because the GOP wants it that way. Help them to become engaged and active. You don't need to get to a large number of people. If you engage two people, they will engage others, and so on, creating an exponential effect. We'll get there, but just keep trying.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:21 PM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


For people who enjoy all things Carter Page, the WaPo has a puff piece in the Style section; the headline might as well be Carter Page is this week's contestant on Trump Campaign Simpletons and Collaborators: What Do They Know? Do They Know Things?? Let's Find Out!
posted by peeedro at 12:23 PM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


TPM, Clovis Expressed Staunchly Pro-Russian Views A Year Before Campaign

In which Sam Clovis is on tape shilling for Russia's ownership of Ukraine well before the campaign, which may help explain why he kept recruiting all these pro-Russia hangers on to the campaign.
posted by zachlipton at 12:23 PM on November 17, 2017 [18 favorites]


I'm actually persuaded by Frowner's comment yesterday that regardless of whether in a normal environment something like censure, etc, would be enough that this is more like a revolutionary environment and we have the chance to draw the most striking of distinctions with Republicans; you are the party of rape and assault and we are not.

This is why, after mulling it over, I think the best possible response would be for Franken to willingly resign, to demonstrate that remorseful men don't just get forced out of office, they willingly accept their consequences and work towards a less-rape-culture world.
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:25 PM on November 17, 2017 [14 favorites]


Like if we're arguing about a, I don't know, terrorist thing and you're wrong, but I can't say you are because everything I could say is classified.

Worse, if we BOTH know the classified information, and you keep pretending you don't to "win" the argument in front of bystanders, because you know I can't say it.

Except in this case, the "classified" information (that the rich donors are making him swallow his integrity and just do it) is shameful and completely up to Hatch to conceal or not.
posted by ctmf at 12:26 PM on November 17, 2017 [20 favorites]


This is why, after mulling it over, I think the best possible response would be for Franken to willingly resign

I probably would come down on this position if you put a gun to my head, but only by like 60/40. But there are enough reasons to at least be okay with a lesser punishment as I've laid out that I'm at least okay with what seems to be happening, which is that he's attempting to take full responsibility, apologize, and make things right with Tweeden.

...

Oh god, I'm watching Sanders speak. I think this is a perfect demonstration; she just came out and flat-out said that the situations are different because Franken has admitted wrongdoing and the President has not. She flat out said it. That is precisely what we want to avoid, where every incentive is to deny, deny, deny and if you admit what happened even to a much less serious charge (compared to Moore) you get run out on a rail.

Thanks, Sarah Sanders, you're really clarifying things here. What a terrible woman.
posted by Justinian at 12:32 PM on November 17, 2017 [88 favorites]


So yeah, maybe don't completely dismiss them entirely, but they churn out a ton of garbage.

Point taken. I try to be pretty aggressive about vetting & pruning the sources I use & forward so they'll be moving much further down the stack.
posted by scalefree at 12:33 PM on November 17, 2017


A tiny portion of a tiny portion of Americans are only 10-millionaires

It's why trickle-down doesn't work. Nobody thinks they have enough to stop hoarding, with bonus "if you don't have a hundred million you're in trouble" articles to reinforce that attitude.
posted by ctmf at 12:38 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


I think this is a perfect demonstration; she just came out and flat-out said that the situations are different because Franken has admitted wrongdoing and the President has not. She flat out said it. That is precisely what we want to avoid, where every incentive is to deny, deny, deny and if you admit what happened even to a much less serious charge (compared to Moore) you get run out on a rail.

It's also worth noting that even if we incinerated Jesus Christ himself for all the sins of humanity, people would still be like "Jesus was just a man like Roy Moore!". There is no moral high ground with people who deny the existence of a common morality.
posted by TypographicalError at 12:40 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Oh god, I'm watching Sanders speak. I think this is a perfect demonstration; she just came out and flat-out said that the situations are different because Franken has admitted wrongdoing and the President has not.

"Saying he grabbed them by the pussy does not count as admitting wrongdoing?" no press corp member asks as follow up, I assume.
posted by mikepop at 12:42 PM on November 17, 2017 [51 favorites]


So yesterday McCain said the tax bill wasn't moving with regular order. Today he says regular order. I have no idea what is going on but clearly we can't count on his vote.

Best bets are Collins, Murkowski, + Corker or Johnson, with Johnson probably buyable with relatively small but difficult changes. McCain is too erratic to count on. Will vote day be a day he thinks the bill went through regular order or 24 hours earlier or later when he thinks it wasn't?

So... Corker would be the prime target I think. McCain's gonna do what McCain's gonna do.
posted by Justinian at 12:45 PM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


From the Department of "What is Wrong with People," Ohio Supreme Court Justice Bill O’Neill posts sexual history on Facebook.
posted by Emera Gratia at 12:46 PM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


I am really hoping that the discussion around #metoo will cause people to look back at Trump's history of assault, because his tweets about Franken's behavior are a great example of throwing stones in a glass house - Franken's behavior was disgusting, but Trump has no moral high ground to stand on that particular issue.

The problem is that large chunks of his base don't care or legitimately don't think Trump did anything wrong, and the Republicans don't care either because he gives them what they want.

(And the hypocrisy of calling out Franken while supporting Moore and Trump and being willing to overlook their behavior is lost on them.)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:54 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


From Bill O'Neill's sexual history post:

"It ranged from a gorgeous personal secretary to Senator Bob Taft (Senior) who was my first true love..."

I feel that sentence needs better punctuation.
posted by rocket88 at 12:55 PM on November 17, 2017 [117 favorites]


McCain can be counted on for nothing Burbank grandstanding. When it comes to the actual vote flip a coin and see which side it landing on would be the most grandstandingest.
posted by Artw at 12:58 PM on November 17, 2017


O'Neill was also running for governor. Which may work for a R, but he's a Dem. His campaign manager already resigned. Bye Bill.
posted by chris24 at 1:00 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


From the Department of "What is Wrong with People," Ohio Supreme Court Justice Bill O’Neill posts sexual history on Facebook.
F..k, that is disgusting!

Is the writer Jan Guillou known outside Scandinavia? Today I read a short interview with him where he discusses the #MeToo campaign, which he supports whole-heartedly; he is positive about the changes it is bringing, but he is also worried about the possibility of a sovjet/culture revolution style tribunal.
Anyway, the reason I'm bringing him up here is that he mentions a point I was searching for, that several men his age have told me about but I'd forgotten (I don't go around worrying about 70+ year-old succesful men's teenage angst): he said that when he was young, there was this set-up where the young women had to pretend to resist, so as to seem virtuous, and for some of his peers, that led to the idea that pushing the woman's limits was OK. My perception is that for some social groups, this game continued way past the -50's.
I don't know Jan Guillou, but all but one of the older men I am actually friends with just refused to play along with this. That one other guy is why I'm not surprised about Franken, or Weinstein, or [random successful male person]
The point is, this is in no way an excuse for anyone. I know plenty of men and women who lived through the fifties and sixties and never once in their lives felt the need to assault another human being. What it is, is a description of an assault culture that penetrated everything. Do you remember the lyrics from "Grease": tell me more, tell me more, did she put up a fight? That line has been going through my head for the last weeks, because I just know it shaped the unformed minds of the jocks in my class, and contributed to their idea that it would be OK to assault my female classmates during gym class.
posted by mumimor at 1:00 PM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


From the Department of "What is Wrong with People," Ohio Supreme Court Justice Bill O’Neill posts sexual history on Facebook.

I think what social media has proven is that most public figures who are not professional writers should not be running their own social media accounts. This goes quadruple for men age 40 or over who fancy themselves as itinerant jokesmiths.

(And for crying out loud, Al Franken was ALL OF THOSE THINGS, and he still got himself in trouble. I hope the current generation of young Dems and progressives are paying close attention to all of this.)
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:10 PM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


You know I don't know why O'Neil decided that he was a hero of a fucking Harlequin Romance and posted it on his Facebook in some sort of bro defense. I just don't know the brain flashes that would lead the fingers to type that. I mean drugs might explain it. But aside from coke? It's like a glimpse into an alien mind.
posted by angrycat at 1:11 PM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


From the Department of "What is Wrong with People," Ohio Supreme Court Justice Bill O’Neill posts sexual history on Facebook.

Very well, where do I begin? My first love was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My second was a fifteen year old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. I would womanize, I would drink. I would make outrageous claims like I invented the question mark. Sometimes I would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:17 PM on November 17, 2017 [80 favorites]


With the giant dong in the sky that's the second blatant Austin Powers reference bleeding into reality today.
posted by peeedro at 1:21 PM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


Boston Globe lede: "Democrat William O’Neill said the post grew out of frustration over Democrats’ calls to remove Al Franken from the US Senate over sexual misconduct allegations." Er, ok.
posted by Melismata at 1:22 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


Bill O'Neill, you are not helping.
posted by maggiemaggie at 1:27 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


Seriously, it's the equivalent of claiming he banged Eartha Kitt in an airplane bathroom. He needs to go away now.
posted by mochapickle at 1:27 PM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


oneswellfoop: We'll see in the next few days if the worst of Trump's "Liberal Media" enablers (looking at you, NPR and New York Times) help to make #trumprape as viral as it should be

Trump Enters Fraught Territory By Criticizing Al Franken (Brian Naylor for NPR, November 17, 2017)
Criticizing Franken is fraught territory for the president.

Trump has been accused of sexual assault by numerous women. During the 2016 campaign, NPR tracked more than a dozen incidents in which he was accused of unwanted sexual contact or attempted sexual contact by women over a span of decades.

Trump's campaign was nearly derailed after the release of a 2005 tape in which he talked about women in vulgar terms, describing acts of sexual assault, in a taped conversation with Billy Bush, then-host Access Hollywood, that leaked a few weeks before last year's election. Trump later said his words "don't reflect who I am" and has dismissed them as "locker room talk."

Among the women who have accused Trump of assault is Jessica Leeds, who told NPR last year that Trump groped and kissed her during a flight to New York as she tried to fight him off. The alleged incident occurred more than 30 years ago.

Trump was prompted to make a speech in October 2016 in which he rebutted specifics in some of the published stories, questioning the timing of the allegations about a month before Election Day. He also called his accusers "horrible, horrible liars."

And while Trump is publicly criticizing Franken, he has remained mostly silent about the allegations against Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore, neither condemning them nor calling for the Republican to withdraw from the race as several other top party members have.
It's not a #Trumprape hashtag, but NPR isn't ignoring the blatant and terrible hypocrisy in this recent noise from Trump.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:27 PM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


From the Department of "What is Wrong with People,"

I think the answer is a total failure to grok the difference between consensual and nonconsensual activity to the point where even the outcry over groping a sleeping woman on camera, for fuck's sake looks like prosecuting Franken for nothing more than being horny.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:28 PM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


Melismata: Boston Globe lede: "Democrat William O’Neill said the post grew out of frustration over Democrats’ calls to remove Al Franken from the US Senate over sexual misconduct allegations." Er, ok.

Alternate text: Dem Bill O'Neill said he wanted to remind everyone what a fucking stud he was, while everyone is paying attention to other hetero dudes.

Seriously, WTF was he thinking? Is he trying to back Franken as a macho dude?
posted by filthy light thief at 1:30 PM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


Seriously, WTF was he thinking? Is he trying to back Franken as a macho dude?

Black Robe Disease, if left untreated, is a serious illness.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:32 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


And yet another reminder that every vote counts: Coin Toss Breaks Tie For Bolton Board Of Selectmen Seat (Jesse Leavenworth for the Hartford Courant, Nov. 15, 2017)
Republican Michael Eremita and Democrat Kim Miller each received 718 votes for a seat on the town’s governing board. To save the town about $2,500 for a special election, the candidates agreed to decide a winner by heads or tails, Town Clerk Elizabeth Waters said Wednesday.

The town charter says a tied election “may be broken by a single toss of a coin carried out by a third party selected by the tied candidates.” Facing an expanse of wooden floor in town hall, Eremita, Miller and Waters (the third party) each tossed a silver half dollar.

There was no “call” of heads or tails. Instead, the candidate who matched the town clerk’s result would win. Waters and Eremita both threw tails and Miller’s coin came up heads, so Eremita won. The victory gave Republicans a 3-2 majority on the board of selectmen, Waters said.

Although tie votes are rare, even in small towns, it turns out this has happened before in Bolton. In a 1969 election for a seat on the public building commission, the Republican and Democrat tied, according to an article in The Courant headlined, “Flip Of Coin Decides Building Group Head.” The Democratic candidate won the flip over the Republican, saving the town $700 for a special election, the Courant reported.
Also, good on Miller and Eremita that they were civil enough to allow a coin flip instead of a $2,500 special election in a rural town with less than 5,000 residents (Wikipedia).
posted by filthy light thief at 1:34 PM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


My sense is that O'Neill is playing that bullshit "Don't be such a prude. Everyone has sex. Why are you being a spoilsport? It's not assault/harassment, it's what people do." game. It's familiar to so many women who have spent any time around lefty dudes who sleep with women.
posted by mcduff at 1:34 PM on November 17, 2017 [23 favorites]


Brave New Films: 16 Women or Donald Trump—Whom Would You Believe? That’s how many women have now accused the president of harassment, assault, and other inappropriate behavior. (Wayback link.)

Video: 16 Women and Donald Trump
posted by homunculus at 1:37 PM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


#TrumpEntersFraughtTerritory is trending on Twitter on Earth 385, where Twitter was nationalized during the heady days of the Keillor Administration.

(of course, it is literal, and refers to his exile to a US-owned guano mining island for multiple counts of real esatate fraud)
posted by condour75 at 1:39 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


"It ranged from a gorgeous personal secretary to Senator Bob Taft (Senior) who was my first true love..."

I feel that sentence needs better punctuation.

Seems perfectly clear to me.
posted by notyou at 1:44 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Trump has added five more names to his Supreme Court shortlist.

The problem here, as Joshua Block points out, is that these are the names of judges who may be called upon to hear cases involving the President and his agenda. In particular, a famously vindictive President known for attacking judges. Do you think publicly identifying these candidates for vacancies that don't exist just might influence how they rule?
posted by zachlipton at 1:56 PM on November 17, 2017 [33 favorites]


I doubt it's what he had in mind but I'm actually rather grateful to Justice O'Neill for (a) making it abundantly clear that he should receive no support from anybody in his planned run for Ohio governor well before major resources were committed, and (b) providing such a textbook-perfect example of Missing the Point.

In consideration of his recent service in these matters I'm willing to forgo the deserved national public humiliation if he decides to do the smart thing and disappear from public office and public life entirely. On the other hand, I'm also up for the public humiliation part if that's how he prefers it, so let us know, Bill, operators are standing by.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:02 PM on November 17, 2017 [9 favorites]


Another example of what that Brian Beutler piece posted earlier in the thread was predicting: A Twitter Account With Two Fake IDs Accused a Democrat of Assault. Then Pro-Trump Sites Ran With It.
A woman claiming to be from Connecticut made an explosive allegation of sexual assault against Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) on Friday. Her account quickly made its way through conservative chat forums, where contributors roundly called for the Senator to address the allegations and be held accountable for them.

But it is not entirely clear that the woman making the charge actually exists. In fact, a quick search shows that the account ripped off bio photos of women in Texas and London and misspelled the name of the accuser’s Connecticut hometown. The account was quickly shut down once the accusation went viral on rightwing media, with the user then emerging to claim she’d been hacked. After that, the account was suspended.
But it seems like this was handled properly.
posted by Justinian at 2:08 PM on November 17, 2017 [28 favorites]


But it seems like this was handled properly.

A social media rarity.
posted by Artw at 2:13 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


It's also what's coming. They'll get better at it.
posted by ctmf at 2:14 PM on November 17, 2017 [27 favorites]


I liked Ryan Lizza's The G.O.P.’s “Boil the Frog” Strategy to Save Trump. The totality of what we know now is increasingly damning: "the Trump campaign interacted with Russians at least thirty-one times throughout the campaign” and there were at “at least 19 known meetings", but it keeps coming out bit by bit, obscuring the whole.

Richmond Times Dispatch, She argued with liberals on Rep. Dave Brat's Facebook page. Then they found out he was paying her. In which a US Congressman pays someone to argue with people on his Facebook page, not mentioning she works for him.
“I bet you have a coexist bumper sticker — or are you more of an antifa-type?” James wrote to a poster who had called her an “idiot.”

When Alsúin Creighton Preis, one of the Liberal Women, accused James of being a paid troll Sept. 28, James replied: “No I don’t get paid to troll wait. Gosh, wish I did!! I comment on Facebook for fun. :) I love engaging with women like you and Kasey. Because you’re so sweet and pretty and someone I’d love to hang out with. haha!!”
posted by zachlipton at 2:37 PM on November 17, 2017 [22 favorites]


Female former staffers of Al Franken come to his defense

This is by no means exculpatory, and perhaps expected, but it may signal that there aren't a lot of other stories to come out about Al. *crosses fingers*
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:53 PM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


Something isn't sitting right with me with Roger Stone being behind that Franken story. My skepticism has been raised.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:56 PM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]



These people have power because they have money. If you want to reduce their power, the only two options are to remove their money or to separate power from money. Ideally, we should have a government that does things like that for us. Since we don't, well...

@Myrmecos - The wealthy may again discover that a primary function of taxes is that they are less painful than guillotines.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:59 PM on November 17, 2017 [23 favorites]


It's also what's coming. They'll get better at it.

The grossest thing about that is, all reality indicates there are a lot of legit victims out there who haven't come forward. This works directly against "believe women" - they can now expect to be jumped on by armies eager to "debunk" accusations. Or well, they could always expect that, but now even the people who want to believe them have to avoid being dangerously naive.

i.e., the right is trying to make their own bullshit come true: "most accusations are false"

Fortunately, I still don't think they have enough money to get a significant number of real women to subject themselves to that kind of abuse. But anonymous reports as a thing just went away.
posted by ctmf at 3:02 PM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


I don't think it's fair to say Stone was "behind" the Franken accusation. It seems more likely to me that he heard about it through the Hannity grapevine since he moves in those circles, as does Tweeden. I think Stone tweeting about it in advance was a giant troll to try to get us to question Tweeden and look like hypocrites.
posted by Justinian at 3:03 PM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


Something isn't sitting right with me with Roger Stone being behind that Franken story. My skepticism has been raised.

Stone's trying to stir up shit. He wants to muddy the waters and make us fight ourselves or appear hypocritical to his Infowars-world audience. Maybe he schemed. Maybe he organized the timing of a valid accusation. Maybe he just heard through the grapevine that this was coming out and got in front of it to make himself look like an insider. One certainty is that he wants people to speculate about his role in this. So we should stop.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:04 PM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


More and more, it becomes painfully obvious that Franken needs to resign immediately.

In a sane and just world Trump wading in to criticize Franken for sexual harassment and sexual assault would be a major event that resulted in harm to Trump and the Republicans, but in our world the Republican voters will simply nod and agree with Trump.

Nevermind what's right, from a sheer cold blooded political calculus standpoint Franken is a giant liability and the sooner he's resigned and allowed his Democratic Governor to replace him (with a woman please) the better. Franken's continued presence in the Senate is hurting Democrats nationwide.

It's also, of course, the right moral and ethical decision. But Franken has already demonstrated he doesn't much care about that part.
posted by sotonohito at 3:07 PM on November 17, 2017


Ah, I see Justinian got in ahead of me. Almost like he had inside information that I was about to say the same thing.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:10 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


Myths of the 1 Percent: What Puts People at the Top
(NYTimes)
posted by mumimor at 3:11 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


About that "Russian backdoor overture and dinner invite"...
CBS News has learned that a Russian national requested a meeting with Donald Trump during the presidential campaign in May 2016, and the request is at the center of the Senate Judiciary Committee's demand for more information from Jared Kushner.

On Thursday, the committee asked for additional information from Kushner about a "Russian backdoor overture and dinner invite." Kushner is Mr. Trump's son-in-law and a top White House adviser who played a key role in the campaign.

A source familiar with the document request says the "dinner invite" referred to an email requesting a meeting with a man named Alexander Torshin and a woman reported to be Torshin's assistant, Maria Butina. The source says both claimed in the email to be members of an all-Russian organization called "The Right To Bear Arms."

According to the source, Torshin and Butina were hoping to meet then-candidate Trump and were eager for Mr. Trump to travel to Russia to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin. The request was made through an intermediary who was attached to a National Rifle Association (NRA) event in Kentucky.

A source says the intermediary forwarded the five-page request to Trump campaign officials, including Paul Manafort and Rick Gates. Eventually it was forwarded to Kushner. The source, who has seen the email, says Kushner declined the request for a meeting, apparently commenting that people claiming to carry messages to the campaign rarely are.

However, Torshin does have ties to the Kremlin. According to published reports, in 2015 he was appointed deputy governor of the Bank of Russia. Reports also suggest he is suspected of having ties to organized crime.
posted by chris24 at 3:12 PM on November 17, 2017 [12 favorites]


*with a sigh, takes down the "the Trump campaign interacted with Russians at least N times" counter, increases it by one, puts it back on the wall*
posted by zachlipton at 3:16 PM on November 17, 2017 [29 favorites]


but now even the people who want to believe them have to avoid being dangerously naive.


Thank you. This is about the best encapsulation I've heard for the frustratingly conflicted feelings this has been causing me. The current political environment is seeing the exploitation of the very real victimhood of many, such that our instinct to do the right thing is being hacked - or weaponized - to work against us if we are not vigilant.

Roger Stone is such a toxic phlegmwad...the only reason he's still alive is that he just subsists on rancor.
posted by darkstar at 3:26 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


zach “Likewise,” the letter continued, “other parties have produced documents concerning a ‘Russian backdoor overture and dinner invite’ which Mr. Kushner also forwarded. And still others have produced communications with Sergei Millian, copied to Mr. Kushner. Again, these do not appear in Mr. Kushner’s production despite being responsive to the second request.”

And new from Natasha Bertrand at BI. Was this included on the counter Zach?

Kushner received emails from Sergei Millian — an alleged dossier source who was in touch with George Papadopoulos
President Donald Trump's son-in-law and senior adviser, Jared Kushner, was copied on emails sent to the Trump campaign last year from Sergei Millian, the Belarus-born businessman who has worked with the Trump Organization and was reportedly a key source in the explosive dossier alleging ties between Trump and Russia.

Senate Judiciary Committee leaders said on Thursday that Trump campaign officials had handed over " communications with Sergei Millian, copied to Mr. Kushner," that Kushner had apparently failed to disclose voluntarily. The center of that request, according to CBS News, is an apparent request from a Russian national to meet with Trump.

It is still unclear who was communicating with Millian, but a Washington Post profile of Millian from March could offer a clue: Millian told associates last year that he was in regular touch with George Papadopoulos — a campaign foreign policy adviser who earlier this year pleaded guilty about making false statements to the FBI about the extent and nature of his contacts with Kremlin-linked foreign nationals.
posted by chris24 at 3:31 PM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


Sorry if this is a dupe. Mother Jones: Hillary Clinton on Trump’s Election: "There Are Lots of Questions About Its Legitimacy" (Video)
posted by christopherious at 3:31 PM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


And from NBC's story on the same, Kushner failed to disclose outreach from Putin ally to Trump campaign:
Kushner rebuffed the request after receiving a lengthy email exchange about it between a West Virginia man and Trump campaign aide Rick Dearborn, the sources said.

Kushner also responded to the email by telling Dearborn and the handful of other Trump campaign officials on the email that they should not accept requests from people who pretend to have contacts with foreign officials to aggrandize themselves, according to one person familiar with the email. Dearborn currently serves as a deputy chief of staff in the White House.

While Kushner told Dearborn and other campaign officials on the email not to accept Torshin's offer, Torshin was seated with the candidate's son, Donald Trump Jr., during a private dinner on the sidelines of an NRA event during the convention in Louisville, according to an account Torshin gave to Bloomberg. Congressional investigators have no clear explanation for how that came to be, according to sources familiar with the matter.
...
Spanish anti-corruption officials have identified Torshin as a "godfather" in the Russian mafia — something Torshin has denied.
So Jared at least has the good sense to not accept the offer in an email, yet somehow noted idiot Don Jr. is sitting next to the guy at a dinner.
posted by zachlipton at 3:37 PM on November 17, 2017 [19 favorites]


I'd forgotten about this one... David S Cloud of the LA Times: "Donald Trump Jr.'s 2016 trip to Paris for lunch with Moscow-linked couple remains a puzzle"
Shortly before last year’s presidential election, Donald Trump Jr. flew to France for lunch at the Hotel Ritz Paris with a Syrian peace activist, who says she meets regularly with Russian officials, and her French husband, who nominated Russian President Vladimir Putin for a Nobel Peace Prize last year.

Donald Trump’s eldest son dined with his hosts, Randa Kassis and Fabien Baussart, at a corner table in the opulent Louis XV Salon. That night, Trump Jr. addressed a seminar organized by Baussart, who heads an obscure foreign policy think tank, for a fee of at least $50,000.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:41 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


@ddale8: Jared is going to make Mideast peace and solve the opioid crisis as soon as he remembers anything that has ever happened in his life.
posted by zachlipton at 3:44 PM on November 17, 2017 [32 favorites]


The difference between the two info spheres right now is astounding. On the right wing side of things it’s about Hillary going down for Uranium One. There’s rumblings that an informant has video of suitcases of cash but that’s not confirmed by Reuters. There’s so many whispers it’s hard to keep things straight on that side.
posted by Talez at 3:46 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


Myths of the 1 Percent: What Puts People at the Top
(NYTimes)
posted by mumimor at 3:11 PM on November 17 [+] [!]

The article makes a good case for high-income professionals driving income inequality. The second graph (scroll down) shows a pretty linear relationship between the elite professional income multiplier and GINI. However, the author fails to address the US as an outlier in that relationship, with the US being far more inequitable than the income multiplier would predict. I suspect that the unexpectedly increased GINI is due to our unique tax structure, but little light is shed in the article on this.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:03 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


Greg Gianforte lied to police the day he attacked a reporter (and the day before he was elected). No consequences for any of it, of course. Greg and Zinke are currently neck-and-neck for Montana's Greatest Shame.

Julia Carrie Wong, Guardian:

Sergeant Scott Secor of the Gallatin County sheriff’s office wrote in his report that he had interviewed Gianforte inside a parked vehicle outside the campaign headquarters where the assault took place. According to Secor’s account of the interview, Gianforte complained that Jacobs had “stuck a microphone in my face” and was asking “obnoxious questions”. Later in the interview, Gianforte described Jacobs’ behavior as “interrogating in a very intensive way”.

Jacobs was attempting to ask the candidate to state a position on the Republican healthcare plan.

Secor described the interview: “He then went on to explain ‘I probably shouldn’t do it but I reached out for his phone … he grabbed my wrist, he spun, and we ended up on the floor … so he pulled me down on top of him’ … Gianforte said the ‘liberal media … is trying to make a story.’”
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:04 PM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


Digital democracy's steep decline
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on November 17, 2017


Listening to Pod Save America today, they pointed out that not only does taxing the college tuition waiver affect grad students but also in cases like the janitor who worked for a University who gave all 5 of his children free tuition. No more pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, you peons!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:34 PM on November 17, 2017 [32 favorites]


CNN confirms Foreign Policy's scoop this morning (without, you know, crediting them) that either Kushner has the world's worst memory, or he's taken to lying in Congressional testimony: Kushner testified he did not recall any campaign WikiLeaks contact
White House senior adviser Jared Kushner told congressional Russia investigators that he did not communicate with WikiLeaks and did not recall anyone on the Trump campaign who had, a source with knowledge of his testimony told CNN.

But Kushner did receive and forward an email from Donald Trump Jr. about contact Trump Jr. had with WikiLeaks, according to a new report this week and a letter from the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Kushner, President Donald Trump's son-in-law, was asked in July during his closed-door congressional testimony if he had any contacts with WikiLeaks or its founder Julian Assange and he responded that he had not, according to the source. He also told Congress he did not know of anyone on the campaign who had contacted WikiLeaks.

A separate source familiar with Kushner's interview with congressional investigators said he accurately answered questions about his contact and didn't recall anyone else in the campaign who had contact.
The committee apparently didn't have Don Jr.'s emails when they questioned Jared.
posted by zachlipton at 4:35 PM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


Murkowski has now denied that she is an automatic no on the tax bill if Murray Alexander isn't first passed. So everyone is all over the place in their answers about this thing. Nobody can be counted in or out, I guess.
posted by Justinian at 4:37 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


It's almost that time again. In case anyone is looking for an upcoming thread title, apparently "the obscure Japanese noun 禍/まが/maga" means "disaster, calamity".
posted by zarq at 4:43 PM on November 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


Webcomicker Dave Kellett explains the investigation so even The Hulk can understand.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:51 PM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]


Wow. @realDonaldTrump: Put big game trophy decision on hold until such time as I review all conservation facts. Under study for years. Will update soon with Secretary Zinke. Thank you!
posted by christopherious at 4:57 PM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: Put big game trophy decision on hold until such time as I review all conservation facts. Under study for years. Will update soon with Secretary Zinke. Thank you!

I mean, yay for putting shooting elephants on hold, but what? This also, yet again, puts him in the role of "guy who reacts to stuff happening around him because he saw a thing on cable" rather than "President who knows what his government is doing."
posted by zachlipton at 4:57 PM on November 17, 2017 [22 favorites]


Laura Ingraham didn't like the trophy thing, and I suspect it's her and a few other right-wing personalities that had his ear on it. Don't know why Ingraham doesn't love murdering elephants since she's pretty cool with doing it to people, but I guess maybe elephants are to be preserved as symbols of the GOP? Maybe she thinks elephants are white? Dunno.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:01 PM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]


NYT has its Alexander Torshin story: Top Russian Official Tried to Broker ‘Backdoor’ Meeting Between Trump and Putin
A senior Russian official who claimed to be acting at the behest of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia tried in May 2016 to arrange a meeting between Mr. Putin and Donald J. Trump, according to several people familiar with the matter.

The news of this reached the Trump campaign in a very circuitous way. An advocate for Christian causes emailed campaign aides saying that Alexander Torshin, the deputy governor of the Russian central bank who has been linked both to Russia’s security services and organized crime, had proposed a meeting between Mr. Putin and Mr. Trump. The subject line of the email, turned over to Senate investigators, read, “Russian backdoor overture and dinner invite,” according to one person who has seen the message.
THE SUBJECT LINE WAS RUSSIAN BACKDOOR OVERTURE. HOW CAN THESE PEOPLE POSSIBLY BE THIS STUPID? HOW?
posted by zachlipton at 5:02 PM on November 17, 2017 [50 favorites]


FWIW, google translate says that " 禍/まが " is Disaster / (ma ga) (or Woe) in Chinese.

In Japanese, it translates it as "Misery". In Korean, it translates as "The Evil".

(I don't read or speak any of those languages, so I can't comment further.)
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 5:02 PM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


there was this set-up where the young women had to pretend to resist, so as to seem virtuous, and for some of his peers, that led to the idea that pushing the woman's limits was OK.

Note that this narrative gives her no option whatsoever to avoid giving consent. If she says yes, she's a slut; if she says no, she is virtuously waiting for her objections to be overridden. She has no abilility to actually refuse.

The theory is supposed to be, she puts up a token resistence, enough that he knows she is virtuous, and then is overwhelmed by True Love and falls into his waiting arms. However, nobody ever agreed on where the end of the "token" resistence was, on how to tell the difference between "following protocol" and just not consenting - and guys quickly figured out that if they kept pressuring girls, a number of them would give in. And they really really didn't want to acknowledge that was because a nonzero number of them would switch from "hey baby would you like to" to "shut up and cooperate or I will hit you harder and maybe break your arm."

Any guy who claims "he was just following the script - she's supposed to say no at first; he's supposed to put on the pressure" - can be asked: how do you tell the difference between a token "no" and a real one? If she really doesn't want more contact with him, what's she supposed to do?

(And brace yourself, because often the answer is going to be, "well, she's not supposed to wear that kind of dress if she's not looking for sex.")
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:02 PM on November 17, 2017 [34 favorites]


Put big game trophy decision on hold until such time as I review all conservation facts.

yeah, but when it comes to possibly annoyed foreign leaders with nuclear weapons, just call them short and fat and it will all work out, right?

(hint - some african animals are pretty fat - i have all the confidence in the world you've got a handle on this, prez)
posted by pyramid termite at 5:13 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]


oh, and this whole franken mess - he needs to go away - most of the damned people we talk about need to go away - WHY WON'T THEY?
posted by pyramid termite at 5:15 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


Alexander Torshin and a woman reported to be Torshin's assistant, Maria Butina . . . members of an all-Russian organization called "The Right To Bear Arms."

*rubs face slowly*

Jim, would you ask the writers to come in here, please?
posted by petebest at 5:18 PM on November 17, 2017 [44 favorites]


Is their logo a bear wielding an AK-47? If not, they've missed a trick.
posted by acb at 5:31 PM on November 17, 2017 [21 favorites]


@zachlipton:

I saw that earlier and didn't think it was real. I had assumed it was odd phrasing, or paraphrasing, headline sensationalism, etc. Holy god, these fools actually talked about something like that so plainly. Even the fucking grunts in the mob aren't this stupid. It almost makes me mad to see implied collusion done so poorly.
posted by constantinescharity at 5:38 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


> Laura Ingraham didn't like the trophy thing, and I suspect it's her and a few other right-wing personalities that had his ear on it.

Anyone who has solid blackmail material on FOX news personalities, or who can deliver other credible threats against FOX news personalities, now controls the President of the United States.

If I had infinite free time I'd be right now writing a what-would-have-been-scifi-10-years-ago thriller about a William Gibsonian hacker/street criminal group, some bunch of Panther Moderns, taking physical control of the News Corp. building, holding the on-air personalities at gunpoint, then feeding them scripts. Why bother with seizing the means of production when you can accomplish the same thing by just seizing Steve Doocy instead?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:39 PM on November 17, 2017 [23 favorites]


Because ZINKE is the fucking voice of reason!?!
posted by elsietheeel at 5:45 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


From The Koch Brothers want to buy TIME article posted earlier,

The negotiations, which have been underway for several days, could move quickly this time, thanks to the Kochs. The Times reports the brothers have tentatively agreed to support Meredith’s offer by investing more than $500 million.

It’s not clear if the Kochs, who spent more than $720 million to back conservative candidates and causes in the 2016 election, would have any influence over Time’s publications.

Really? Even now, after all these many, many scaramuccis, you feel the need to cover like this? Is this funny to you? What. Does it take? To say what's going on? New York Magazine. Corporate media. Hm?
posted by petebest at 5:49 PM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


@OrrinHatch: I grew up in a shack with a Meadow Gold Dairy sign for a wall. I worked as a janitor to pay for law school. I believe in opportunity because I’ve lived it. And that’s what we’re going to deliver with #TaxReform.

In case you're wondering where it all went wrong, Sen. Hatch's alma mater, Pitt Law, has a total cost of attendance of $161,144 for three years for a PA resident. A law school student worker there gets paid $8.25/hour. So the math on the whole work your way through law school by being a virtuous Republican hard worker plan is not exactly on his side.
posted by zachlipton at 6:00 PM on November 17, 2017 [70 favorites]


Hatch is retiring. What's stopping him from going IDGAF?
posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:04 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


This is him not giving a fuck.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:05 PM on November 17, 2017 [26 favorites]


I grew up in a shack with a Meadow Gold Dairy sign for a wall.

Hatch: We used to have to get out of the lake at three o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, go to work at the mill every day for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle, if we were LUCKY!
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:08 PM on November 17, 2017 [14 favorites]


National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo: The Senate, soon, after Roy Moore and Al Franken
As I write this, it is unclear what behavior we consider beneath the dignity of the Senate. Is there a standard? Does it depend on your side of the aisle? What is the essential variable? Is it whether you apologize? How grovellingly you apologize? Whether you double down? How incumbent you are? How loudly you chant “Fake news! Tax reform!” over the cries of your accusers? All of the above? None of the above?

If things keep going this way, I fear the Senate of the future will look something like this:

Unrepentant Groping Hand Protruding From a Big Stack of Bibles (R-Ala.)

Black and White Picture of a Judge Sitting on a Porch (R-Ala.)

Six Startled Elk Who Sometimes Demand Money for an Invisible Bridge (R-Alaska)

Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska)

John McCain Delivering a Stirring Address to an Empty Chamber, Accompanied Everywhere by Sarah Palin’s Vengeful Ghost (R-Ariz.)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:09 PM on November 17, 2017 [14 favorites]


Oh, and just a friendly reminder from the Washington Post editorial board that The Pentagon has detained a U.S. citizen for more than two months — and said little

Have a good weekend, everybody.
posted by zachlipton at 6:10 PM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


the right is trying to make their own bullshit come true

When the trolls were saying that Antifa was going to massacre people, I was relieved when none of them dressed up in black and did it themselves.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:29 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


I have a feeling that the chan trolls who use costumes of V from V for Vendetta miss the irony of who V's original targets were.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:46 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo: I oppose destroying men’s careers over creepy sex behavior. Except this guy’s.
When I heard Thursday that a man’s career was at risk over something he had possibly done to a woman in the past, I thought this was an enormous shame. But then I learned that this man was Al Franken, and my views changed considerably.

By God, people should live by their values, by God! That is what I feel now.

Usually I hate it when a beloved opinionated television man has to deal with women complaining about his behavior, and I am willing to pay out up to infinite sums to silence them, because who can say what motivates these people to spin such wild tales? Probably they just want to get more irate, misspelled emails than they currently do and enjoy the special honor of never having their names mentioned on Fox.

But now I love it. More of this, please! Before, I used to have a vague conversion factor where you needed, I think, at least 26 female testimonies before you could even start to feel the vaguest shiver of doubt in your mind, but now, I say, one will suffice. Let her speak. I will listen.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:05 PM on November 17, 2017 [29 favorites]


Nobody I follow has said anything yet. God I hope not.
posted by chris24 at 7:29 PM on November 17, 2017


whhhhhhy are people on Twitter saying that Fox News just said that Justice Kennedy will retire after Thanksgiving

It's the tryptophan. He will retire for a nice nap and be back on Friday.
posted by JackFlash at 7:33 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


whhhhhhy are people on Twitter saying that Fox News just said that Justice Kennedy will retire after Thanksgiving

Fox is probably "reporting" that, based on that whole weird short-list of justices for a nonexistent SCOTUS opening thing earlier today.
posted by palomar at 7:40 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


And a quick scan of Google News shows no one else is reporting that. I have no idea what Fox's Friday night lineup is but there's probably an angry white man or nondescript angry blonde lady talking nonsense, like usual.
posted by palomar at 7:42 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


Justice Kennedy: "Oh, I'm retiring? Better pack my bags then..." [FAKE] [for now]
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:54 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


If they drum up the SCOTUS angle, maybe some of their disgusted-with-Moore constituents will nevertheless hold their noses and vote for the pedophile, you know, for the children’s sake.
posted by darkstar at 8:31 PM on November 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


That's it exactly. They want the culture warriors down in Alabama thinking SUPREME COURT rather than CHILD MOLESTER.
posted by Justinian at 8:42 PM on November 17, 2017 [17 favorites]


Trump could always nominate Moore to the next vacancy and then we'd have SUPREME COURT CHILD MOLESTER all in one package!

He even has judicial experience, if you classify him slamming his dick in a rapidly closed Bible "judicial experience."
posted by delfin at 8:51 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]


I seem to recall that precise tactic being used on and by evangelicals in the run-up to 2016; "Yes, Trump is a vile man, but this Supreme Court seat is just too important."
posted by contraption at 9:15 PM on November 17, 2017 [26 favorites]


"Yes, Trump is a vile man, but this Supreme Court seat is just too important."

They aren't wrong. Seating Justices is the most important and influential action the President can do.
posted by PenDevil at 9:19 PM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]


Seating Justices is the most important and influential action the President can do.
...unless Mitch McConnell is the Senate Majority Leader...
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:23 PM on November 17, 2017 [31 favorites]


octothorpe: "When I lived in State College, PA, the city council was all elected at-large which was effective at keeping students off the council since there were enough townies who voted to outnumber the students. Not sure if they've changed that since the '80s."

Looks like it is unchanged. I must admit that I never changed my residency to State College when I went to school there, I just voted as if I was still at home.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:35 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]


Metafilter: more or less living vicariously through The Whelk at this point.

I got crowns for the party on the 1st.
posted by The Whelk at 9:57 PM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


"Is their logo a bear wielding an AK-47? If not, they've missed a trick."

That only works if they're campaigning to arm bears.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:59 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]


I was too busy today for a real ELECTIONS NEWS, but Cook Political has updated ratings on 7 districts, 6 of which are towards the Dems (Love, Curbelo, Culberson, Roskam, Grothman, Frelinghuysen).
posted by Chrysostom at 9:59 PM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]


Trump will get another SCOTUS appointment. Just accept it. Kennedy is close to retirement, if not this year then soon, there's too many rumors to be completely unfounded. Or there will be another opening in the next 3 years, all of the liberal Justices are elderly except maybe Kagan. This the full extent of the Clinton loss. It's generational. It's a century long loss. It took a once in a generation chance to flip the Court from conservative to liberal, and turned it instead into a flip from conservative to arch-conservative/anarcho-fascist. This is why liberals should've cared about the Supreme Court for the last 40 years. But they never did. Not even once. All those chickens are home to roost now, and for the next 40-100 years.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:00 PM on November 17, 2017 [60 favorites]


Reuters has been doing great work on the Trump Tower Panama story, and you can read some of that in Ivanka and the fugitive from Panama

Richard Engel reported on the extensive criminal activity around the building, the first Trump Tower built overseas and a project featuring Ivanka, and the Trump Organization's wilful blindness to it, in this 17 minute video. They managed to track down Alexandre Ventura Nogueira and get him to do an interview; he's a fugitive, wanted for fraud in Panama, who sold units in the building to a lot of shady characters, including members of the Russia mob.
posted by zachlipton at 10:17 PM on November 17, 2017 [10 favorites]


"Yes, Trump is a vile man, but this Supreme Court seat is just too important."

It's the nature of politics: sometimes you just have to deal with guys who make life awful for women in order to get laws that make the entire nation much, much more awful for women.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:17 PM on November 17, 2017 [50 favorites]


This is why liberals should've cared about the Supreme Court for the last 40 years. But they never did. Not even once. All those chickens are home to roost now, and for the next 40-100 years.

If it really does end up with 9 Gorsuch/Scalia/Moores on the bench defending noone but white billionaires and theocrats, we will be so far gone that rule of law will be worthless.
posted by benzenedream at 10:34 PM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]


Nah. We still have impeachment for retrograde judges. The nation has gotten through worse. Keep moving forward.
posted by notyou at 10:40 PM on November 17, 2017 [11 favorites]


It's a century long loss. It took a once in a generation chance to flip the Court from conservative to liberal, and turned it instead into a flip from conservative to arch-conservative/anarcho-fascist. This is why liberals should've cared about the Supreme Court for the last 40 years. But they never did. Not even once. All those chickens are home to roost now, and for the next 40-100 years.

Yeah. But then again, there is nothing stopping the dems from adding justices either. The 9 isn't written in the constitution, after all.

And adding Puerto Rico as a state, too. We need to get enough dems to hamstring Trump with veto overrides and then hem the monster in with laws.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:43 PM on November 17, 2017 [29 favorites]


I mean, control of the Supreme Court was the reason why the Democrats laser-focused on the Presidency. They just didn't anticipate that the Senate could just ignore the nomination.

The thing is, I can't see the fever lasting much longer either way. Maybe breaking the tax plan is enough to set the Republican Party eating itself, and the Democrats can unfuck voting and the DSA can shove the Overton window way back left. Maybe the G20 decides to start cutting America out of the central role it's played in the world economy, and America diminishes to a state like Italy or Spain - still developed and respectable, but there's wide swathes of the country that simply don't function properly, and no-one really expects them to be setting the agenda.

(This is a bit late on Franken, but I think that the short-term disadvantage of losing an effective senator is outweighed by the long-term advantage of having women comfortable lending their talents to the party. The risk that the Democrats will lose the seat seem small; Minnesota is solid, especially with a well-chosen caretaker by the Democratic governor. I think it'll be hard for Franken to repent for his shittiness while people are counting on him.)
posted by Merus at 12:32 AM on November 18, 2017 [9 favorites]


Nine Things to Know About the J20 Court Cases (Protesters arrested during the inauguration) From Idavox, news site of the One People's Project
posted by XMLicious at 2:47 AM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


If it really does end up with 9 Gorsuch/Scalia/Moores on the bench defending noone but white billionaires and theocrats, we will be so far gone that rule of law will be worthless.

Never thought "Boil the frog" would be used against the Rule of Law, which I believe is the founding principle of the USA. But here we are.

I don't even know where to start fixing it, when all it took was coordinated bad-faith among the leadership of the the legislature and executive branches to fuck up the Court.

This is really freaking me out. I'm just numb.

I think I just figured out the USA's real existential crisis, we're moved very far indeed along the path, and unlike "patience, wait for Mueller", I'm unable to imagine any way forward that doesn't result in the complete twisting of the Rule of Law against it's own purpose.

It's still there, but it's twisted so far out of line you can't even see the Declaration of Independence.
posted by mikelieman at 3:15 AM on November 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


I feel like this tax bill is some sort of breaking point.

This is money in politics; this is a supposedly democratic institution acting against the sharply defined will of the people.

I've reached some sort of point where it's like--even if it fails because Murkowski, Collins, and McCain hold out, that is just too many times we've almost been really fucked. Three people against a great tide of money. And that's assuming that it fails, which is not a good bet right now.

I probably should nope out of politics for a portion of a Scarmuch, too. Probably won't.

Christ, you know, I know the flaming meteor is a joke, but maybe we'd be fucking better off dealing with an existential threat--maybe there'd be a giant pulling of heads out of asses, or something.
posted by angrycat at 4:35 AM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


Okay, so here's a clip of a completely unfunny skit all about sexual harassment that Franken did during a USO tour with Karri Turner. The gag is Franken, as a creep, has written a scene where the beautiful Turner, despite being a married character with kids and wearing a fighter pilot jumpsuit, is SO in love with the Franken-created character that she is wearing a negligee under her uniform so she can go to town on Franken.

So the (terrible) joke is Franken wrote a stupid skit just so he could kiss Turner, and she's having none of it. Haha , yes? No, it gets worse.

Because Turner finds the whole gag so ridiculous, she gets a serviceman to come up so she can force a kiss on HIM. Hahaha.

Is this the standard level of comedy for USO shows? WTF. I'm sorry for all the actors who had to do this crap.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:53 AM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


Is this the standard level of comedy for USO shows?
Sounds pretty much like the standard established by Bob Hope in the Vietnam era...
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:59 AM on November 18, 2017 [22 favorites]


For your Republican friends and family who say the the damn liberal MSM isn't covering Franken like they did Moore.

Franken was mentioned on CNN 346 times yesterday, compared to 239 on Fox.
posted by chris24 at 5:07 AM on November 18, 2017 [13 favorites]


Christ, you know, I know the flaming meteor is a joke, but maybe we'd be fucking better off dealing with an existential threat--maybe there'd be a giant pulling of heads out of asses, or something.

Judging by how we've handled the news of multiple-degree global temperature rise, I think we'd just develop new trading platforms to arbitrage the shock wave based on the predicted impact point.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:10 AM on November 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


A Great Migration From Puerto Rico Is Set to Transform Orlando
As predicted by many MeFites above. Now you guys just need to get them registered and fired up to vote.
posted by mumimor at 5:20 AM on November 18, 2017 [22 favorites]


A Great Migration From Puerto Rico Is Set to Transform Orlando

The Mariel boatlift was 125,000 people and transformed Miami and southern Florida. Thus far, 168,000 Puerto Ricans have come to Florida and there's another 100,000 with known travel plans by year end just to Orlando alone.
posted by chris24 at 5:28 AM on November 18, 2017 [15 favorites]


Not sure if this has been posted yet: Paula Cobia, attorney for Gloria Deason (Moore accuser) tells Hannity's booker Allysa Moni how it is after receiving a request for interview.
posted by loquacious at 5:35 AM on November 18, 2017 [14 favorites]


Donny woke up angry.

@realDonaldTrump
Crooked Hillary Clinton is the worst (and biggest) loser of all time. She just can’t stop, which is so good for the Republican Party. Hillary, get on with your life and give it another try in three years!

---

@joshchafetz
Retweeted Donald J. Trump
He's the guy who won't stop drunk-dialing his ex and then insisting that she's still obsessed with him.
posted by chris24 at 5:43 AM on November 18, 2017 [83 favorites]


Donny is retweeting Greta Van Susteren and Piers Morgan thanking him for changing his mind on the elephant import ban, so hopefully his need for praise means it will be permanent.
posted by chris24 at 5:56 AM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


It's amazing how often Trump identifies himself not as a leader, but as someone who sits around reacting to things happening around him. His entire mental model for the job seems to be that he used like yelling at the TV when he saw stuff he didn't like; now he does that and something actually happens, like he's been given the world's best remote. Which also explains why he gets so upset when people tell him he can't do something because his idea is stupid, expensive, or illegal: he doesn't like the TV yelling back at him.
posted by zachlipton at 6:11 AM on November 18, 2017 [58 favorites]


His entire mental model for the job seems to be that he used like yelling at the TV when he saw stuff he didn't like

@brianstelter
15 minutes before this tweet, Fox had a segment with @AlanDersh, bannered “HILLARY CLINTON SKEPTICAL OF 2016 LOSS.”
@realDonaldTrump: Crooked Hillary Clinton is the worst (and biggest) loser of all time. She just can’t stop, which is so good for the Republican Party. Hillary, get on with your life and give it another try in three years!
posted by chris24 at 6:18 AM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


So that USO skit is one he was reusing, then?

Hillary, get on with your life and give it another try in three years!

Because the election was so much fun, let's do it all again?!?!
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:18 AM on November 18, 2017


all of the liberal Justices are elderly except maybe Kagan

Sotomayor is only 63.
posted by jgirl at 6:21 AM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


On the Trump definitely cares about polls front...

Politico: Trump still loves polls - The president often decries surveys showing him with slumping support as fake, but advisers say he can't stop himself from obsessively keeping track
As a TV host, Donald Trump loved ratings. As president, he loves polls—as long as they show him on the upswing.

He crowed on Twitter hours after landing back in Washington from his 12-day Asia tour about his Rasmussen number—46 percent—noting it was “one of the most accurate” in 2016, and decried “fake news” polls showing his approval in the 30s while also suggesting, with no evidence, that “some people” think his numbers could be in the 50s. (The Rasmussen poll sank to 42 percent on Friday.)

Aides in the White House often show Trump polls designed to make him feel good, according to aides and advisers. Usually they’re the ones that focus just on voters who cast ballots for him in 2016 or are potential Trump supporters —Trump’s base—but occasionally include public polls like Rasmussen, depending on what the numbers say. [...]

“The polls are about the base,” one adviser said. “He cares about the base.”

When the White House sent internal poll numbers to about 15 legislators last month in hopes of pressuring them to support tax reform, it wasn’t the usual approve-disapprove.

Instead, the polls delineated by the president’s base, steady Trump voters, soft Trump voters, lean Dem independent voters, white working class men, suburban women. For example, in New Jersey’s seventh congressional district, a wealthier stretch that includes Trump’s Bedminster golf club, 72.7 percent of the president’s base approves of him, while 67.9 percent of Republicans approve, internal polls obtained by POLITICO show. There was no data on his approval rating overall.
posted by chris24 at 6:25 AM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'm vaguely curious whether there exists at all a right-wing conversation along the lines of "Look, both sides have their creeps, but when someone on our side really crosses the line, boy howdy do we right-wingers tell them to get out of town!", a message whose liberal equivalent I've heard frequently.

I'm pretty sure the answer is "No, even they aren't that deluded about it". Or to be precise, those conservatives with a decent sense of the value of consent/respect/boundaries are already fully disgusted with Trump, so their only feeling about their own side on this front is disappointment. For the others, it's all about point-scoring, and they only see Franken's behavior as wrong insofar as it makes liberals sanctimonious/hypocritical, like how liberals (correctly!) view a homophobe who had a secret consensual gay affair.

chris24: @realDonaldTrump: Crooked Hillary Clinton is the worst (and biggest) loser of all time. She just can’t stop, which is so good for the Republican Party. Hillary, get on with your life and give it another try in three years!

If whatever Hillary is doing is "good for the Republican Party", why would he want her to stop?
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:34 AM on November 18, 2017 [6 favorites]


You’ll find more coherence in a meth house kitty litter box than in his tweets.


You will, however, find more shit in his tweets than you will find in any kitty litter box anywhere.
posted by bootlegpop at 6:50 AM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


It’s great that the President has reversed the FWS on the elephants, but this is no kind of deliberative process suitable for democratic governance. Decree by Tweet. Fuckin A.
posted by notyou at 7:28 AM on November 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


NYT: Republican Governors’ 2018 Dilemma: What to Do About Trump?
For nearly a decade, meetings of the Republican Governors Association were buoyant, even giddy, affairs, as the party — lifted by enormous political donations and a backlash against the Obama administration — achieved overwhelming control of state governments.

But a sense of foreboding hung over the group’s gathering in Austin this past week, as President Trump’s unpopularity and Republicans’ unexpectedly drastic losses in elections earlier this month in Virginia, New Jersey and suburbs from Philadelphia to Seattle raised the specter of a political reckoning in 2018.

“I do think Virginia was a wake-up call,” said Gov. Bill Haslam of Tennessee, who took over here as chairman of the governors association. “There’s a pretty strong message there. When Republicans lose white married women, that’s a strong message.”

In a series of closed-door meetings, governors tangled over how best to avoid being tainted by Mr. Trump, and debated the delicate task of steering Mr. Trump’s political activities away from states where he might be unhelpful. Several complained directly to Vice President Mike Pence, prodding him to ensure that the White House intervenes only in races in which its involvement is welcome.

A larger group of governors from agricultural and auto-producing states warned Mr. Pence that Mr. Trump’s proposed withdrawal from the North American Free Trade Agreement could damage them badly.

Republicans have long anticipated that the midterm campaign will prove difficult. But the drubbing they suffered in Virginia, where they lost the governorship by nine percentage points, along with at least 15 State House seats threaded throughout the state’s suburbs, has the party’s governors worried that 2018 could be worse than feared.
posted by chris24 at 7:30 AM on November 18, 2017 [11 favorites]


So, disappointingly, there is a backlash against Franken's accuser, trying to discredit her by tying her to Trump.

Someone just posted that on Facebook, and the comment I left was so righteously indignant that I think I need a cigarette, and I don't even smoke.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:30 AM on November 18, 2017 [13 favorites]


. . . this is no kind of deliberative process suitable for democratic governance. Decree by Tweet. Fuckin A.

Remember that dumbass cokehead CIA-backed frat boy who implemented continuous surveilance on literally everyone forever, rammed through a war - still going - that no sane person wanted by spewing patently false lies through every media orifice for a year, instituted torture with no hit of shame (and made the taxpayers pay for it)?

The one who drove the economy off the cliff to the point that the Treasury Secretary is calling emergency midnight meetings and sobbing like a child? Before cruelly forcing Americans to pay trillions to bailout the corrupt mechanisms that, through unbelievably gross malcompetence, precipitated global financial catastrophe?

The one who seated "Call me Tony" Alito and Johnny "Vote Stripper" Roberts? Narrowly missing seating family lawyer and Real Swell Gal Harriet Miers? The one who refused to testify to the 9/11 commission - after appointing Hank "War Crimez, yo" Kissinger to run it - unless it was off-the-record, not-under-oath, the lights were down, and Big Daddy Cheney was there to hold his fucking hand? That guy? The guy who got "elected" twice after not stealing Ohio don't look over there what are you some conspiracy nut? That Fucking Guy?

Trump's worse. Way to go, truck nut nation. Fuckin rah. Democrats - state, national, whatever - we suck at this. Wtf.
posted by petebest at 8:06 AM on November 18, 2017 [38 favorites]


Look at the winners of the presidential contest in the last 30 years:

Reagan
Clinton
Dubya
Obama
Trump

Now look at the losers:

Mondale
Dukakis
Dole
Gore*
Kerry
Mccain
Hilary*

Notice the difference? When parties nominate candidates who lack charisma they lose the presidential election.

* actual popular vote winners
posted by euphorb at 8:29 AM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


Notice the difference?

Yeah. One of them has no last name, apparently.
posted by Too-Ticky at 8:34 AM on November 18, 2017 [85 favorites]


Yeah. One of them has no last name, apparently.

He's called dubya to differentiate him from his dad.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:38 AM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


candidates who lack charisma

Right. Low charisma. Solid political chops, high intelligence, legal training, commended bravery, common sense, not-a-psychopath. But low charisma.

Please turn with me to channel 1102 for the broadcast of "TV is Our God, Ooh Yeah Baby"
posted by petebest at 8:40 AM on November 18, 2017 [6 favorites]


I find the level of charisma is defined after the fact. H.W. had more charisma than Dukakis? Really?
posted by dirigibleman at 8:42 AM on November 18, 2017 [22 favorites]


We've discussed it before so I won't go into a long diatribe, but interpretations of "charisma" tend to be highly gendered.
posted by chris24 at 8:44 AM on November 18, 2017 [59 favorites]


He's called dubya to differentiate him from his dad.

were it me writing that comment I would have gone with 'Rodham Clinton.' it's an interesting editorial question, how have the Roosevelts been handled historically?
posted by carsonb at 8:45 AM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


I don't think "lacking charisma" is something that we can objectively point to as a problem for all of the losers. From my point of view, Dubya and Trump both have zero charisma. I wouldn't piss on either one of them if they were on fire, and that is based purely on their campaigns. I don't find dumb, aw-shucks hokeyness or smarmy narcissism to be particularly appealing, I guess.
posted by xyzzy at 8:45 AM on November 18, 2017 [9 favorites]


Trump is only genuinely charismatic to the grossest and most monstery 15% of Americans. The other 20% who support him do so out of tribalism or because they want specific (generally awful) results: judicial appointments, anti-immigrant policy, etc.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:48 AM on November 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


I find the level of charisma is defined after the fact. H.W. had more charisma than Dukakis? Really?

Dukakis didn't meet the American electorate's standard for judicially sanctioned bloodlust.
posted by Talez at 8:50 AM on November 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


Besides the fact that, as chris24 points out, the idea of charisma tends to be highly gendered, I don't think it was charisma, per se, or lack thereof, that sank so many Democratic candidates between Bill Clinton and Obama. I will grant that both of them, especially Barack Obama, had charisma out the wazoo. So did Ronald Reagan. I won't grant exceptional charisma to anyone else.

But I remember people - including me, who actually voted for Bernie in the primary! - were excited to vote for Hillary Clinton. We liked her. We thought her platform was progressive and she did a good job of articulating it. And she won the popular vote.

Both Bushes were as dull as dishwater - not really any less dull than Dukakis or Kerry. Where the latter two failed, I think, was in not getting people excited to vote for them and lack of a clear message and firm stated principles. "Hold your nose and vote for us, we're boring and wonky, but at least we're not Republicans" doesn't really sell. Both WJ Clinton and Barack Obama were able to state what they stood for, they came across as having vision, they stood above the crowd, and they got people to vote for them - while still being intelligent and experienced.

My memory of the Dukakis campaign is fading, and I didn't pay much attention anyway (I did vote for him because I didn't like Bush), but I remember that Kerry wasn't really everyone's first choice for a Democratic candidate and nobody was that excited to vote for him. I don't think you need "charisma," whatever that may be, but you absolutely have to inspire people to get out and vote for you, and, like or not, the voters have to like you and what you stand for.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:02 AM on November 18, 2017 [24 favorites]


I think repeat name presidents are usually distinguished by initial use. George Bush wasn't "George H.W. Bush" in common public usage until Dubya took office. Like TR and FDR, John Adams vs. John Quincy Adams. No one seems that concerned about the Harrisons, though :P

I don't enjoy the dumb hokeyness or Trump either, but apparently a lot of people find that charming. God knows why. The whole "have a beer with him" crap thing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:02 AM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


Trump is only genuinely charismatic to the grossest and most monstery 15% of Americans.

This is why comparing charisma post-election is pointless. For the authoritarian mindset, power comes with its own charisma.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:03 AM on November 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


Hillary had tons of charisma imo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Trump has absolutely no charisma, he got elected because America is filled with xenophobic racists and misogynists and Nazis, oh and because Putin helped him out. Not because of charisma. That's it, there are no other reasons.
posted by gucci mane at 9:08 AM on November 18, 2017 [58 favorites]


I hope when Klownwig dies, he rigors into that squinty-pouty-I-thinking-smart face. Although the smug ass face has its arguments-in-favor as well.

Think of the punching bag market.
posted by petebest at 9:09 AM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


BREAKING: Hillary resigns as Fox News's President of the United States.
posted by Talez at 9:09 AM on November 18, 2017 [43 favorites]


H.W. had more charisma than Dukakis? Really?

ghwb was america's dorky war hero grandpa who knew how to whistle; dukakis was just dorky
posted by entropicamericana at 9:10 AM on November 18, 2017


BREAKING: Hillary resigns as Fox News's President of the United States.

our long national nightmare is over
posted by entropicamericana at 9:11 AM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


Are there people who can't whistle
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:33 AM on November 18, 2017


I never, ever understood why people thought Mondale had no charisma. If we're going to talk about superficialities, I thought he was quite handsome and his family was picture perfect.

Reagan was totally dorky to me, and his family was HELLA dysfunctional. That was when I first began to be aware of IOKIYAR.
posted by maggiemaggie at 9:37 AM on November 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


This is money in politics; this is a supposedly democratic institution acting against the sharply defined will of the people.

THIS! Thank you. At least Trump had the electoral college and some fig leaf of legitimacy. The failed health care repeal and now the tax thing are straight up, baldfaced, we know what the people want and fuck you.

It's unacceptable that democracy even permits that possibility. It's broken.
posted by ctmf at 9:38 AM on November 18, 2017 [28 favorites]


One problem with Charisma as a political measuring stick for electability is that it's only one of the abilities a Political Candidate needs to succeed. Constitution is just as important on a long campaign, and while you can learn to depend on other party members for Intelligence and Wisdom, if your Strength can't lift a baby to kiss, or indeed you can't dodge a shoe with Dexterity, you're just going fall on the ash heap of history (take 1d6 damage per 10 feet fallen) and have to roll a new candidate.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:50 AM on November 18, 2017 [26 favorites]


This looks like either retaliation or a directed attempt to interfere with or undermine the NY AG. The only question is whether Trump or Putin put Erdogan up to it.

AP: Turkey prosecutors open probe of former, acting US attorneys

Turkish prosecutors launched an investigation Saturday of two United States prosecutors involved in putting a Turkish-Iranian businessman on trial for allegedly violating U.S. sanctions against Iran, according to the country’s official news agency.

The Istanbul prosecutor’s office said it us investigating Preet Bharara , the former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, and Bharara’s successor, Acting U.S. Attorney Joon H. Kim.

A statement from the Istanbul prosecutor’s office claimed that the sources of the documents and wiretaps being used as evidence in the U.S. case against gold trader Reza Zarrab were unknown and violated international and domestic laws.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:59 AM on November 18, 2017 [9 favorites]



H.W. had more charisma than Dukakis? Really?

ghwb was america's dorky war hero grandpa who knew how to whistle yt ; dukakis was just dorky

Dukakis ran a terrible campaign. None of the liberal Dems -- organization people -- I knew or worked with were excited about him.

He did very poorly in debates. I remember Bush's animation when responding to a question about role models for young people, mentioning Jaime Escalante, among others. Dukakis couldn't seem to manage anyone specific or compelling.

Granted, during the really bad debate (perhaps the same as above) Dukakis was recovering from a cold or the flu, and practically the first question was Bernie Shaw starting off with "If Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?" Watching at Bush headquarters (go ahead and flail me), we were stunned -- and we were not gleeful over it.

During appearances, he looked disgruntled and annoyed -- watch him walk to the podium for his acceptance speech.
posted by jgirl at 10:20 AM on November 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


So, disappointingly, there is a backlash against Franken's accuser, trying to discredit her by tying her to Trump.

And a bunch of people passing around the Snopes-debunked "the photographer said she was in on the gag", along with some pictures of the accuser in racy clothing, to try to imply there's no way she could have been offended, and it just makes me hate everything.
posted by corb at 10:56 AM on November 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


So, disappointingly, there is a backlash against Franken's accuser, trying to discredit her by tying her to Trump.

And a bunch of people passing around the Snopes-debunked "the photographer said she was in on the gag", along with some pictures of the accuser in racy clothing, to try to imply there's no way she could have been offended, and it just makes me hate everything.

Is this backlash coming from Democratic Senators and major media outlets? Or is it coming from the dregs of the internet? If it's coming from the dregs, I suggest not immersing yourself in the dregs.
posted by diogenes at 11:03 AM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


if there's one thing that 2016 taught us, it's that we can't just ignore the dregs of the internet.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:13 AM on November 18, 2017 [17 favorites]


if there's one thing that 2016 taught us, it's that we can't just ignore the dregs of the internet.

The intelligence agencies can't ignore it. We can.
posted by diogenes at 11:16 AM on November 18, 2017 [7 favorites]


2016 taught us that the Internet was incredibly effective at empowering the dregs of society and other evildoers far more than the forces of good, which raises interesting questions about the subject of "net neutrality" (losing it may actually be harder on the evildoers?)
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:31 AM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


Well, there's dregs and then there's dregs. It's important to keep tabs on what sort of things are emergent in various communities, but we can also distinguish "some clown in my Facebook feed" and "influential TV host" or "often-cited blogger/tweeter" or whatever. Nutpicking is fine if the nuts have a significant influence over a non-trivial number of people.

If a nutty point of view is gaining traction, then it's worth talking about, but hopefully in a nuanced way that acknowledges that any sort of emergent Franken Truther movement has no support among the party establishment, including Franken himself. That's the point at which I file these things under Asshole Saying Asshole Things on the Internet and move on.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:41 AM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


If a nutty point of view is gaining traction, then it's worth talking about, but hopefully in a nuanced way that acknowledges that any sort of emergent Franken Truther movement has no support among the party establishment, including Franken himself. That's the point at which I file these things under Asshole Saying Asshole Things on the Internet and move on.

Exactly. Simply spreading around what some rando said on Twitter about Franken's accuser only amplifies their voice, and it helps create a narrative that there's an equivalence between the left and the right. Let's wait until it's coming from Shumer and and Mother Jones before we start talking about it like it's an emerging strategy from the left.
posted by diogenes at 11:48 AM on November 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


2016 taught us that the Internet was incredibly effective at empowering the dregs of society and other evildoers far more than the forces of good, which raises interesting questions about the subject of "net neutrality" (losing it may actually be harder on the evildoers?)

Twitter, Facebook, and Reddit have been terrible, but don't look to Comcast and Time Warner to be any better.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 12:01 PM on November 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


Is this the standard level of comedy for USO shows? WTF. I'm sorry for all the actors who had to do this crap.

Always worth re-watching the USO (Suzy Q) scene from Apocalyse Now.
posted by msalt at 12:08 PM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


ghwb was america's dorky war hero grandpa who knew how to whistle;

Naw, George Bush the elder was (by his generation's standards) a flat-out stud: fighter pilot (who was given amphetamines for that work), baseball star, director of the CIA and the Republican party, son of a senator. He was pure blue blood WASPy insider cunning.

Dukakis was a good man but the stage was way too big for him. He was an honorable small businessman but no leader.
posted by msalt at 12:14 PM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


So, disappointingly, there is a backlash against Franken's accuser, trying to discredit her by tying her to Trump.

There's a small backlash against Tweeden, I think, but I don't think it compares in any way to the crap out of the right on this subject. Thank god. The debate about Franken among the Democratic electorate has mostly centered on "how severe of a punishment is appropriate for Franken?" rather than what Trump and Moore got from theirs despite much more serious charges (at least in Moore's case), which is "Should we continue to support them enthusiastically or only reluctantly?"

I think the left has handled this pretty well overall.
posted by Justinian at 12:15 PM on November 18, 2017 [22 favorites]



Ray Walston, Luck Dragon: "Are there people who can't whistle"

Me.
posted by Mitheral at 12:24 PM on November 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


Top general says he would resist "illegal" nuke order from Trump
The top U.S. nuclear commander said Saturday he would push back against President Trump if he ordered a nuclear launch the general believed to be "illegal," saying he would hope to find another solution.

Air Force Gen. John Hyten, commander of the U.S. Strategic Command (STRATCOM), told an audience at the Halifax International Security Forum in Halifax, Nova Scotia, on Saturday that he has given a lot of thought to what he would say if Mr. Trump ordered a strike he considered unlawful.

"I think some people think we're stupid," Hyten said in response to a question about such a scenario. "We're not stupid people. We think about these things a lot. When you have this responsibility, how do you not think about it?"

Hyten explained the process that would follow such a command. As head of STRATCOM, Hyten is responsible for overseeing the U.S. nuclear arsenal.

"I provide advice to the president, he will tell me what to do," Hyten added. "And if it's illegal, guess what's going to happen? I'm going to say, 'Mr. President, that's illegal.' And guess what he's going to do? He's going to say, 'What would be legal?' And we'll come up with options, with a mix of capabilities to respond to whatever the situation is, and that's the way it works. It's not that complicated."
posted by chris24 at 12:38 PM on November 18, 2017 [10 favorites]


He's going to say, 'What would be legal?'

AHHHAHHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA

Has General Hyten met our Predisent? But seriously, does this man actually think that Trump is going to ask him what is legal, rather than telling him to launch anyway?
posted by Gaz Errant at 12:44 PM on November 18, 2017 [19 favorites]


From the article about "illegal" nuclear attack orders:
Hyten said he has been trained every year for decades in the law of armed conflict, which takes into account specific factors to determine legality -- necessity, distinction, proportionality, unnecessary suffering and more. Running through scenarios of how to react in the event of an illegal order is standard practice, he said.

I'm pretty sure the good general is aware that the US policy of Mutually Assured Destruction is intrinsically incompatible with the principles of necessity, distinction and proportionality. If the US ever had a credible nuclear deterrent, what this general is saying is nonsense: it was always directed by people willing to commit war crimes.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:53 PM on November 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


Jeff, I got bad news for you.
Sen. Jeff Flake, a frequent sparring partner of President Donald Trump, continues to make enemies in his own party after calling the GOP "toast" while unaware he was still on a live mic.

Flake, R-Ariz., was at a tax reform event in Mesa, Arizona on Friday night when he was caught bashing the president in a conversation with friend, Mesa Mayor John Giles.

"If we become the party of Roy Moore and Donald Trump, we are toast," Flake was caught saying by ABC affiliate KNXV.
posted by chris24 at 12:55 PM on November 18, 2017 [49 favorites]


Always worth re-watching the USO (Suzy Q) scene from Apocalyse Now.

OMFG. Bill Graham's cameo!
posted by mikelieman at 1:02 PM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


The top U.S. nuclear commander said Saturday he would push back against President Trump if he ordered a nuclear launch the general believed to be "illegal," saying he would hope to find another solution.

So, Armageddon just might rely on the good commander's feelings? Didn't we just see a climate change report or something kept away from Trump because it contradicted the president's beliefs?
posted by rhizome at 1:03 PM on November 18, 2017


We're not slack-jawed, because what he said isn't really news.

All branches of the military, at all levels, are supposed to refuse to carry out illegal orders already. That's part of the code.

Unfortunately, the current state of nuclear weapons authorization means that any order to use them is, by definition, a legal order.

The military does not get to refuse to carry out a lawful order just because it's a bad idea.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:29 PM on November 18, 2017 [6 favorites]


Before criticizing Hyten: You might want to consider what an officer in his shoes could say in order to reassure the public that he won't blindly follow stupid orders to blow up the planet. He can't simply say, "I'd tell him to fuck off."

These things exist. Those nukes, our strategic adversaries, the arms race, the whole awful mess all exists. Within that reality which cannot be ignored are people who are trying to navigate and influence the system without shit going insane and destroying us all. We can't wish it all away, and if you're expecting a general to say, "I'd tell the president no, I won't," you're basically expecting that general to throw away his career on an empty gesture. He'll be replaced.

This is the most reassuring thing he can get away with saying. This is as far as he can go. And even this is a massive risk that he may not, in fact, get away with, but he's trying because he sees people are (rightly) worried.

If you want him to do more than that, you're hoping for the whole mess to go away. That's a fine desire and I sympathize, but it's not going to happen with one general saying "fuck no" to a hypothetical question. It's not even going to happen with mass principled resignations (because that's not going to happen). That's going to require massive systemic change at the political level. That's Congress. A general reassuring people that he thinks about his orders before following them is the best we're gonna get.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:29 PM on November 18, 2017 [51 favorites]


If they BECOME the party of Moore and Trump. Too late assholes, you ARE the party of Moore and Trump. No takebacks, fuckers.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 1:38 PM on November 18, 2017 [16 favorites]


Naw, George Bush the elder was (by his generation's standards) a flat-out stud

I know this is meant in a slightly hyperbolic sense and with due appreciation to context, in-between barfs, this aggression will not stand, man. I'm not gonna dig up the entrée-sized dirt on ol' Blood-for-oil, Iran-contra, drug-war Noriega fapping pinhead fuckdollars but seven women have accused GHW Bush of inappropriately grabbing and fondling them, just, for the 2017ing of it.

16, for Trump. So far. Iirc.
posted by petebest at 1:40 PM on November 18, 2017 [10 favorites]


The military does not get to refuse to carry out a lawful order just because it's a bad idea.

How about because it's a war crime?
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:57 PM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


Having thought a lot about Franken over the past two days, and my opinion vacillating during that time, I really hope he doesn’t resign.

I believe he went over the line. The degree to which he did so, and its context in the rehearsal and aftermath of - having now watched the video of the show - a very crudely ribald comedy tour, leads me to view his infraction as problematic, but not as absolutely damning as some would argue.

It in no way rises to the level of multiple accusations of pedophilia, or a repeated, chronic pattern of harassment, for example.

I appreciate that others feel differently, though.
posted by darkstar at 2:07 PM on November 18, 2017 [15 favorites]


yes and also, mistaking what the military is supposed to do on paper with what specific people in the military will do in the world is... well, it's some kind of fallacy, whatever it is. I wanna just be like "logocentrism! this is logocentrism!," or maybe "map-territory error!" but there's probably some more tightly focused term from Aristotle or whatever that better describes mistaking descriptions of what people are supposed to do with what those people actually do.

If what people were supposed to do matched what people actually do, we would have all died in 1983.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:10 PM on November 18, 2017 [6 favorites]


I’m not an expert in the law around use of nukes (it would be great to have one chime in), but presumably a preemptive strike is illegal, while a retaliatory launch would be legal?
posted by heathkit at 2:13 PM on November 18, 2017


I don't see why a pre-emptive strike would automatically be illegal. It would depend on the circumstances.
posted by Justinian at 2:18 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


It would be a moral catastrophe regardless, and no worthwhile person would carry out the order regardless of the order's legality or illegality, and regardless of the legality or illegality of refusing to carry out the order.

As scaryblackdeath noted above, what Hyten said is the closest thing to the plain truth that someone in Hyten's position can utter while still remaining in their position afterward.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:21 PM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


You're in luck, for an expert just highlighted an article on this.
Important read from Peter Feaver on presidential launch authority and military role: “authenticated orders from the national command authority have a presumption of legality. (Note: the presumption is even stronger in launch-under-attack scenarios...).
Peter Feaver, Foreign Policy Magazine: President Trump and the Risks of Nuclear War
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 2:23 PM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


I can't imagine -- well, I shouldn't say that because 2017 -- but I highly doubt that any series of events is going to happen in the next three years that will require the use of nuclear weapons as a proportionate response.

And I think the people who are responsible for actually implementing the order to strike need to take into consideration the fact that our president is a mercurial, ignorant, impulsive asshole when receiving said orders, and need to act accordingly.

I mean, as much as we've had some shitty presidents since we developed the capability to destroy the entire planet with the flick of a switch, we've not had one that was so fundamentally untrustworthy and callous. You can disagree with Nixon or Reagan or W. but I think they all deeply understood the solemn responsibility of being the commander-in-chief of a nuclear-armed military. Trump does not and cannot and will not ever.

The presumption should be, unfortunately, that a Trump response is disproportionate. Because when isn't it?
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:30 PM on November 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


I know this is meant in a slightly hyperbolic sense and with due appreciation to context, in-between barfs, this aggression will not stand, man. I'm not gonna dig up the entrée-sized dirt on ol' Blood-for-oil, Iran-contra, drug-war Noriega fapping pinhead fuckdollars but seven women have accused GHW Bush of inappropriately grabbing and fondling them, just, for the 2017ing of it.

Oh, I agree 100% and am actually emphasizing H.W.'s sexual abuse/harassment in another topic as we speak. Of course, for his generation, that was part of being a stud.

We're all glad standards are rapidly changing. I just don't want to see revisionist history misconstrue how things look at the time, being old enough to remember. "Read my lips, no new taxes" was seen as a bad-ass move at the time, quoting a macho Schwarzenegger action movie, though it blew up on him big time later.
posted by msalt at 2:31 PM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


This looks like either retaliation or a directed attempt to interfere with or undermine the NY AG. The only question is whether Trump or Putin put Erdogan up to it.

AP: Turkey prosecutors open probe of former, acting US attorneys

I'd bet that the gold trader/go-between, Reza Zarrab, and his banker Mehmet Hakan Atilla, have been flipped and the money-laundering apparatus of Erdogan probably has a couple of lines in a ledger to TrumpCo, as well as to whatever shell company Mike Flynn was operating under.

This shit is getting more labyrinthine than Iran-Contra.
posted by eclectist at 2:47 PM on November 18, 2017 [13 favorites]


Preet Bharara's response to Turkey opening an investigation of him: Better call Saul.. Sounds like he's really quaking in his boots.
posted by Justinian at 2:53 PM on November 18, 2017 [11 favorites]


Podcast Review: Citations Needed ep. 16 Editorial Board gets into the political slant of the NY Times and was an eye-opener for me. As they put it, The NY Times is the Democratic paper for the 1% and as such is very anti-liberal, anti-progress. I think I had been raised to believe that the NY Times was the paper of note and the liberal MSM that is so often referred to by the Right. I knew they had "stumbled" when they breathlessly reported on the WMDs of Iraq & HRC's emails but I honestly thought they were on the side of Democracy. Turns out they are on the side of War abroad and status quo at home.

I was at the gym at around 5:30 and in front of me CNN had all Kushner, all the time, while to my left FOX had all Hillary, all the time. The Fight Song came up on my playlist and I had to seriously stop myself from bursting into tears. The DNC was one of the highlights for me last year and it felt so good to be to be a Democrat. I was so proud of her.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:12 PM on November 18, 2017 [24 favorites]


Having thought a lot about Franken over the past two days, and my opinion vacillating during that time, I really hope he doesn’t resign.

I'm still vacillating too. The rush to damn him here was a little odd. People were calling the DNC and asking them to force Franken out within an hour of the news breaking.
posted by diogenes at 3:18 PM on November 18, 2017 [11 favorites]


I get that we need to believe the accusers, and we shouldn't automatically defend the accused, but it isn't necessary to damn the accused within 60 minutes.
posted by diogenes at 3:20 PM on November 18, 2017 [7 favorites]


I don't know if, in a vacuum, Franken's actions are cause for him to resign immediately.

But we're not in a vacuum. We're in a moment where there is, we hope, a leap forward for the principle that women are equal human beings to men, equally deserving to live and work and be without getting molested by men who hold power over them. And in the context of a molester-in-chief, a surge also of retrograde, disgusting, oppressive misogyny.

Let's say for the sake of argument that [he didn't actually touch her in the picture / she misremembers the forcible kiss / everything is totally manufactured by the right].

The best thing a genuinely progressive politician can do in this moment still is to say: "I am resigning. The public deserves servants who are above reproach."

We'll cross the bridge of rightwing ratfucking or whatever when it comes to it, and let's be honest -- they're pretty good at overplaying their hand. But in this moment, the most powerful statement Franken can make to further genuine equality is to unequivocally apologize and resign.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:29 PM on November 18, 2017 [10 favorites]


Yeah, the rush to judgement is odd to me. We'll see how it shakes out. I don't see why he has to be out of office within days without an investigation. To me "believe women" means take their claims seriously, not that an accusation is truth.

I think Franken should insist on an investigation and follow through, or quit. No waiting for it to blow over.
posted by bongo_x at 3:34 PM on November 18, 2017 [10 favorites]


I’ve been really struggling lately with what an appropriate punishment is for creepy behavior, in the political arena and in private life. I’m glad that we’re deciding there needs to be a consequence for sexual harassment, but it probably needs to be a sliding scale? So maybe not every single offender deserves permanent unpersoning and loss of livelihood? But I’m at a loss to work out what a reasonable consequence and duration for is.

Social contract stuff is so much harder to work through than straight-up legal offenses.
posted by Andrhia at 3:35 PM on November 18, 2017 [10 favorites]


Let's say for the sake of argument that ... everything is totally manufactured by the right.

The best thing a genuinely progressive politician can do in this moment still is to say: "I am resigning..."

I'm guessing that this isn't what you meant to say?
posted by diogenes at 3:36 PM on November 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


No, I mean what I said. If he's truly innocent, he'll be exonerated by the investigation that he's called for and can run for his seat again.

If we're going to believe women (and other people who are sexually assaulted), let's believe women. And that means a structural norm that if someone says you sexually assaulted them, you resign and let it be sorted out.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:41 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


And that means a structural norm that if someone says you sexually assaulted them, you resign and let it be sorted out.

I... Wow... That's an interesting position.
posted by diogenes at 3:44 PM on November 18, 2017 [16 favorites]


There's a picture. There's a script. There's a detailed account of an event on her side and "I remember it differently" on his side. Coupled with the picture and the script, her detailed account of the event is completely believable and his detail-free "I remember it differently" copout is completely and laughably contemptible. Nobody is saying that sexual harassment and sexual assault are equivalent. They're not. One is much much worse than the other one. Sexual assault should result in jail and sexual harassment should result in FIRED.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:50 PM on November 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


So when the right learns they can essentially fire anyone they want at any time, they... what, honorably don't do that? What stops the DoS attack of false accusations?
posted by ctmf at 3:52 PM on November 18, 2017 [11 favorites]


I'm talking about the general case here, not Franken.
posted by ctmf at 3:53 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'm still confused as to what this Senate ethics investigation of Franken actually entails. Hell, it's possible the Senate has no idea what it entails. But they should come up with a process 'cause this isn't gonna be the last accusation against a Senator I bet.
posted by Justinian at 3:56 PM on November 18, 2017 [11 favorites]


What's the alternative? Unless someone is 100% sure that they never molested the person and is willing to be like, "Yeah, you're absolutely lying and I know for a fact that I didn't do what you're accusing me of -- I'll see you in court for defamation".

That's not what Al Franken is saying. That's what I could say as a cis gay man -- I've dated women, but I would happily take an oath saying that I never sexually touched a woman without her consent. He can't.

But you know what? Even I, in this particular historical moment, would better serve the common good by stepping down rather than fighting to clear my "good name". Purely for the importance of the point that sexual harassment and assault and rape are not things to be brushed off like dandruff.

The only thing that gives me pause is the question of the short-term political danger of having a vote short in the Senate, because the ruling party is fucking up everything. But Franken could make the same statement by resigning effective Jan. 1, or whatever gives the governor enough time to get his replacement (which should be a woman) lined up and such.

He needs to be a leader. That sometimes means accepting unfair accusations (and again, I don't think they're actually unfair and I think he knows that). Regardless. He needs to step down.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:58 PM on November 18, 2017 [7 favorites]


No, I mean what I said. If he's truly innocent, he'll be exonerated by the investigation that he's called for and can run for his seat again.

That would absolutely with someone like Franken who is from Minnesota. But it wouldn't work with, say, Joe Manchin (West Virginia) or Joe Donnelly (Indiana) since the governors are Republican and would replace them with Republicans, who when then gut the country while the investigation happens. "Oh, you were innocent? Run for your red-state seat again, this time against a Republican incumbent, and oh in the meantime we took away healthcare and slashed Medicare and Social Security! Sowwy!"
posted by Justinian at 3:59 PM on November 18, 2017 [9 favorites]


@DavidUzumeri: We Didn’t Start The Fire 2017 would have to be performed over five nights like the goddamn Ring Cycle
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 4:03 PM on November 18, 2017 [49 favorites]


OK, I'm cooling off a little bit. I think there's a window for blatantly false accusations to not result in immediate resignation. But the question is, who gets to decide what a "blatantly false accusation" is? How can Democrats expect to be the party of the people when people can't trust that Democratic elected officials aren't... touching people sexually without their consent?
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:07 PM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


Here's an idea: rather than rushing to judgement, we listen to the accuser, listen to the accused and listen to how they respond to each other. If they respond with acceptance and dignity, then it's really no one's business but theirs. If they respond with denial and threats, well, then it's everybody's business.
posted by SPrintF at 4:23 PM on November 18, 2017 [34 favorites]


How can Democrats expect to be the party of the people when people can't trust that Democratic elected officials aren't... touching people sexually without their consent?

where it's going to get weird in:re appropriate penalties, i think, is the fact that's not just "aren't touching" (or other forms of harassment) but "have never touched" (or other forms of harassment). or, to use the standard you're introducing here, "have never behaved in a way where they could be accused of ever having touched/harassed," which is a near-impossible standard (though false accusations are, historically, vanishingly rare). this is not to say that past bad actions, or accusations of same, should be tolerated or ignored. but navigating this is going to be complicated. the 'resign if confronted with accusations of past bad actions' tactic is very likely to be weaponised against democrats very quickly.

in the case at hand, with franken, there is actual photographic evidence of an inappropriate incident; even though it happened before his entering congress, i think there's a clear argument for him to step down. i do not intend to introduce a 'you need photographic evidence' standard, here, but at the same time, a blanket 'accusation = resignation' protocol has some problems.
posted by halation at 4:26 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


I feel like the sex aspect confuses things. If you said "Al Franken stole my car" or "punched me in a bar" the proper response would be "Really? That's pretty serious, we better look into that!" Not just ignoring it, or declaring him automatically guilty, which is how these things seem to go.

There's a lot of things that are odd about this story, but maybe it happened just like it sounds. He needs to deal with it.
posted by bongo_x at 4:28 PM on November 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


Why should Franken step down when his accuser has accepted his apology, and has said herself that she does not want him to step down?
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:29 PM on November 18, 2017 [18 favorites]


Let's skip past the "what to do about false or woefully lacking-in-details accusations" problems. We don't have any of those - we have a few cases of well-evidence accusations, and a larger number of multi-person accusations with a whole lot of circumstantial evidence, including a lack of defamation charges we'd expect for fabricated accusations.

So: in the case of accusations where basically everyone agrees "this physical series of events happened," and what we're stuck with is trying to sort out "was that harassment or assault?" (and usually we can say, by today's standards it is; by the standards at the time it happened, maybe) - then what?

Factors I want considered:
1) How much harm was caused? (Not, "was she really hurt," but how many people were affected, was the victim/victims hurt beyond the fear and trauma of assault - were they threatened if they told, for example - was the harm a one-time thing or a continued pattern of targeting someone, and so on.)

2) Does he acknowledge the harm? Does he admit that what he did was wrong, and he should not have done so? Does he agree that people in general should not be allowed to do what he did?

3) Has he tried to make amends? Made a real apology admitting wrongness, not "I'm sorry you were hurt by what you think happened?" Tried to offer something to mitigate the damage?

4) Has he changed - not just, is he now older enough, married enough, etc. not to do this, but has he changed whatever habits and beliefs he had that made him think it was okay to do this?

5) Can we be fairly sure he'll never do it again?

There's no bright-line test for "and now it's okay," but I want all those considered in the issue of "what should be done about it; should he resign; should he be jailed; should he have to pay a huge fine," etc.

I know how entrenched harassment and assault are. I know, roughly, how many men have groped or stalked or flirted at women who didn't want their attentions, who were scared or traumatized or uncomfortable enough to leave their jobs - and I don't want all of them thrown in jail because I don't want to clean up the bodies after the societal collapse that would cause. So, acknowledging that I don't want "just and fair punishment" for all their crimes - I have to figure out what I want instead.

I want the ones who can learn better, the ones who have learned better, to have second chances. I want them to tell other men: Yeah, you have been a creep in the past, but YOU CAN STOP, and it won't cost you everything you've worked for to say, I fucked up but I'm going to quit doing that now.

I want the ones who've slowly become aware that their behavior has been wrong, to have a reason to come forward. If they're only facing being fired and maybe jailed, they have no reason to be honest, and every reason to continue to dodge any claims of their past actions.

I don't want a free pass - that's why "how much harm" is part of the consideration. But I want them to have a way to choose to be better, rather than a choice between "be honest and put my professional life in ruins" or "don't say anything, and bribe as many others as possible not to say anything." I want an option of "be honest, take some punishment, and work to make the world better for women in the future," with a strong mention of, "and if you can convince us HOW you're going to do that, the punishment gets lighter."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:31 PM on November 18, 2017 [18 favorites]


The photo of Franken is really gross and IMO means he can't talk about misogyny with any degree of credibility. That should be a big problem for a leading Democratic politician at any time, but right now it's crippling. I don't think the actual assault is even as bad as the photo, because it's the sort of thing that can instantly close down debate:
Roy Moore cruised for underage girls? Well, here's a photo of Al Franken grabbing someone's tits. Trump is a sexual abuser? Oh, you mean like Al Franken? BAZONGA! Women's reproductive rights are under attack? Yeah, they're in safe hands with Al Franken. Get it? Get it?
To the extent that anything good can come out of this, it shows that there really isn't a safe zone for misogynistic humour. The photo alone could have been dismissed as clowning around, but in conjunction with the reported assault it becomes so much darker. By all (other) accounts Franken is a good politician, but the photo makes him a liability.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:31 PM on November 18, 2017 [13 favorites]


If you said "Al Franken stole my car" or "punched me in a bar" the proper response would be "Really? That's pretty serious, we better look into that!"

If I said, "Al Franken stole my car!" and posted a photo of him driving my car, that'd make a much stronger case for my claim than just saying it happened.

Franken didn't deny the photo, and I suspect the "I remember it differently" wasn't "I don't think that happened," but "I thought she understood it was all a joke, and we were just having fun." And his apology seems to say that he has figured out that a "joke" that's only funny to one person is not a joke.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:34 PM on November 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


The general case, here, unless things are worse than even I think, and I think things are ten feet down in a hog lagoon, will presumably be that the general case senator did not sexually harass or sexually assault anyone because in the general case senators don't do that! So the general case senator will say, "I did not do that: here is what happened," and it will be believable, unlike "depends on your definition of 'is'" or "I remember it differently" or "I'm going to hire a graphologist and countersue the 8 women!" or "I'm rubber and you're glue; my 16 accusers bounce off my long red tie and stick to your white pantsuit!"

There will be no evidence that the senator did what he was accused of, there will be no reason to suspect him of lying.

If it is the general case that senators and everybody else in power can be assumed to be sex criminals, then we need new senators and people in power. The darkest timeline general case is BAD. Miming sexual assault on a sleeping person is BAD. BAD conduct unbecoming of a US senator should result in the replacement of that senator.

We have nodded at this shit as if it didn't matter for generations. If the Thomas confirmation hearings had gone as they should have and if we had ceased to giggle and fingerwag and keep promoting monsters thirty years ago, we wouldn't now be finding handsy lying scumweasels around every corner and we would be able to trust in the basic goodness of our people. Handsy lying scumweasels must gtfo of congress now. Yes, it's generations too late and the time is inconvenient. That does not mean we should delay it another generation. At no time is it going to be convenient.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:34 PM on November 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


I’ve been thinking since Louis CK that we need some kind of sliding scale for men that immediately accept responsibility and apologize, or else we’re just encouraging them to lie and delegitimize their accusers. With Franken, we also need to encourage honest investigations and discover if this is a pattern of abuse or a one time mistake.

Now, all of these behaviors are bad. And all of them merit some kind of punishment. But if we use the same level of punishment for the lying, stonewalling, lifetime abuser that we use for the one time mistake that is honestly admitted and apologized for, what incentive does anyone have to do the right thing?
posted by Glibpaxman at 4:35 PM on November 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


Let's skip past the "what to do about false or woefully lacking-in-details accusations" problems. We don't have any of those

We had one linked here barely a day ago.
posted by one for the books at 4:43 PM on November 18, 2017 [6 favorites]


his detail-free "I remember it differently" copout

In a short timeframe, it might have been the least-bad option for an, "I didn't do it" statement or something similar. It would hopefully not be taken as an automatic charge that she's misrememberng or making it up. It's detail-and-accusation-free.

>Well, here's a photo of Al Franken grabbing someone's tits.

Ok, where's that one?
posted by petebest at 4:59 PM on November 18, 2017


We had one linked here barely a day ago.

Yup, in this brave new world we're hashing out, Richard Blumenthal would have resigned yesterday. I'm sure it will never happen again though.
posted by diogenes at 5:02 PM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


Peter Cox, MPRNews: Rape survivor wants Franken's name off bill
A Minnesota woman and rape survivor who worked with Sen. Al Franken to write a bill to help fellow survivors is looking now for another lawmaker to take up the cause in the wake of sexual misconduct allegations against Franken.
After discussions today, Sen. Amy Klobuchar agreed today to become the lead sponsor of the bill.
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:05 PM on November 18, 2017 [20 favorites]


>Well, here's a photo of Al Franken grabbing someone's tits.

Ok, where's that one?

My hypothetical Republican interlocutor has just inveigled you into arguing that he wasn't touching her, which you can tell by the pixels, and that he didn't even touch her a moment later despite that being exactly what it looks like he was about to do and him having written a skit just so he could stick his tongue down her throat. And instead of covering your substantive criticism of Roy Moore the broadcaster covers your argument that "Franken photo is not as bad as it looks" and maybe even invites someone on for a rebuttal.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:12 PM on November 18, 2017 [12 favorites]


Exactly. That picture ends Al Franken. Per his book, and I believe what he says about this in his book, Franken has worked tirelessly to make himself into a serious person and to get on with his fellow senators and be taken seriously. He has been great in hearings. He has been an enormous force for good for years. Now his capacity to serve has ended. Now he can only do harm. He is now just as enormous a liability as he was an asset before that picture. Go. Get out. Get out yesterday.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:26 PM on November 18, 2017 [15 favorites]


What if we treated rape, attempted rape, sexual assault, sexual harrassment as crimes? Arrest the suspect, investigate, press charges, etc. They are put on leave from work while out on bail waiting for trial. we could call this "the justice system". Of course, americans would have to get used to the crazy notion that women might actually be people and hence have rights not to have crimes committed against them.
posted by Anchorite_of_Palgrave at 5:44 PM on November 18, 2017 [16 favorites]


The reason the criminal justice system has not been involved in these cases is not because they aren't crimes (in Moore and Trump's case anyway) but because they are past the statute of limitations. There is no investigation for crimes that can't be prosecuted.
posted by Justinian at 5:53 PM on November 18, 2017 [4 favorites]


I’ve been thinking since Louis CK that we need some kind of sliding scale for men that immediately accept responsibility and apologize, or else we’re just encouraging them to lie and delegitimize their accusers.

I get what you're saying here but, damn. I am really tired of these guys always getting access to easy-mode. How about they just learn the playground rules of "keep your hands to yourself" and "don't be an asshole" like the rest of us did.
posted by skye.dancer at 5:55 PM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]


Now his capacity to serve has ended.

There's one thing left for him to do. Make the point that the behavior behind credible accusations of being a shit, doesn't meet our expectations for a leader. And lead the change with his resignation. Good guy/Bad guy isn't relevant.

I want to live in a world where credible accusations end people who are shits' career. For too long it's been the other way around, where credible accusations end the accuser's career. This Ends NOW.
posted by mikelieman at 5:56 PM on November 18, 2017 [9 favorites]


If a photo turned up from 2006 of Franken grinning in blackface, he'd instantly be out. If a photo turned up of him in a Nazi costume at a Halloween party giving the salute, he'd be out. I wouldn't venture to say about the relative harm done in these various scenarios, and I'm not making a claim about whether any of these outcomes is just, but a single photo can definitely end a politician's career, without even going into the question of whether he was actually touching her, whether she was actually asleep, the other assault, etc. In a world where there are many offensive images which almost everyone already agrees should terminate a politician's career, it's unclear to me why this one shouldn't count too.
posted by chortly at 6:09 PM on November 18, 2017 [15 favorites]


This Ends NOW.
Sadly, I fear that ending Al Franken's political career will probably have minimal effect on those who have done much worse. As I've said before, his breakthrough as a performer/writer on early Saturday Night Live probably means way back then he either was doing occasional awful things or covering for those who did. (Tonight's SNL should be very interesting, if not entertaining. ) I'm sure we will see pictures of him doing at least a couple other cringeworthy or even abusive things sometime in his 30 year show biz career before he got seriously into politics. (And the one we saw was since he 'started to get serious' about getting into politics.) At least we're not having to deal with a Senator Bill Murray.

In other Bad Man News, we're seeing that Harvey Weinstein had made up an 'enemies list' of victims, potential accusers, investigators and reporters he was targeting months before the first NYT story came out. I can only wonder who he may have inspired to do the same, and whether he got the idea from another gross offender. (Yes, I'm thinking of Dirty Donnie; after all, his largest expenditures are on lawyers, defensive and offensive.)
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:27 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


I don't have any fundamentally new insights; I just think that as we grapple with these matters here as a community, as well as in society as a whole, there are certain touchstones that we have a tendency to forget, but which are well worth revisiting regularly.

It's important to remember and be mindful that we are all wounded members of a toxic culture. That alone is basis for compassion toward victims, transgressors, each other, and ourselves. And it's important to have that compassion foremost in our minds, because ultimately the only just outcomes are those that steer us toward a more enlightened culture. Compassion - even when unreciprocated - binds wounds, and binds us together in that common cause. Mindfulness and compassion together can guide us to the wisdom to bring justice to fruition from the seeds of division.

I have appreciated Rebecca Traister's words, both written and spoken, of late.
posted by perspicio at 6:28 PM on November 18, 2017 [19 favorites]


how could you think that there is no collusion
Is that "how could you think that? There is no collusion." or "How could you think that there is no collusion?" ?
Janus phrase.
posted by librosegretti at 6:28 PM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


I fully expect Franken to resign, and for Moore to get elected
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:37 PM on November 18, 2017 [7 favorites]


and for Moore to get elected

How come? Isn't he down way more points than the margin of error in recent polls?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:50 PM on November 18, 2017


The most encouraging factor is that in Virginia, the Democrat outperformed the polling (9 point win vs. 3-4 point prediction). So there is a lot more than the "I don't want to admit" factor involved.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:54 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


How come? Isn't he down way more points than the margin of error in recent polls?

The RCP average is like +5 Jones, but this is a culture war campaign in Alabama and the election is still almost a month away.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:01 PM on November 18, 2017 [3 favorites]


I actually think the consensus of "let's have the ethics committee investigate this" is perfect, especially since it's a bipartisan consensus.

If Franken just resigns, you're establishing two bad principals:
1) the senator invovlved decides what happens next (by resigning or naw), and
2) the smart perpetrator always denies everything, and then won't suffer any consequences unless they choose to.

The allegations against Franken are at the far mild end of the harrassment/abuse/rape spectrum. If the Democrats (with bipartisan support) establish that even this requires a full ethics investigation, that gives months of time and a formal process for any other allegations to come out, (other incidents, intimidation of the witnesses, etc.)

Even if -- particularly if -- this turns out as mild as possible, that is one forced kiss with a sketchy rationalization plus a gag photo, then everyone should agree to the harshest penalty short of expulsion, which I think would be censure plus loss of all committee assignments and loss of seniority.

Now you've set the bar as high as possible for all future allegations in either party -- full investigations and very strict penalties even in the mildest of cases. If this gets worse for Franken, of course, expel him. But again, the Senate ethics committee makes the decision, not the perpetrating Senator.
posted by msalt at 7:10 PM on November 18, 2017 [58 favorites]


It's possible that the only reason we haven't heard any more stories is that the Republicans are sitting on them, waiting for some defenders to claim that "it was just a stolen kiss and a bawdy joke". But even supposing that it was an isolated incident, a Senate investigation might be the worst possible outcome. I expect the Republican senators would make Franken's conduct seem as disgusting as possible – and then impose no consequences, on the grounds that the assault occurred before he was a Senator. They'd leave him as a lame duck and a monument to both-sidesism. I don't know what should be done, but it's just too dangerous to leave the decision in the hands of Republicans.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:40 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


FWIW, Franken didn't hesitate to call for an Ethics Committee investigation into his action. That IS a precedent I can get behind. Still, it would be nice to live in a world where "Credible Allegations" == "End of Career", but I'll take "Credible Allegations" == "Credible Investigation", and we've at least moved in the right direction.
posted by mikelieman at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2017 [7 favorites]


Joe In Australia: Franken isn't up for re-election until 2020. There is no scenario where they could make his behavior sound so disgusting that he would be a lame duck 3 Trump-news-years into the future without imposing punishment.

Also, if Democrats are calling for punishment -- if even Franken is proposing punishment -- and Republicans outvote the Democrats to block it, I really don't think it would be the master coup they might be imagining.
posted by msalt at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


I expect the Republican senators would make Franken's conduct seem as disgusting as possible

Even our milquetoast TV media have repeatedly asked almost every Republican who tries this, "What about Trump?" Their strategy so far is just to ignore this question, but a hearing that keeps assaults of the sort that Trump is well known for -- as opposed to allowing centrist/vulnerable Republicans to draw a line under Moore and be done with it -- is really not what they want going into 2018. If it wasn't for the fact that Franken's a Democrat, Democrats would be overjoyed (strategically speaking) to have something like this drag out for months, keeping a very Trump-ish assault in the minds of wavering suburban voters just as election season ramps up.
posted by chortly at 7:56 PM on November 18, 2017 [8 favorites]


Republicans are in a Catch 22 about it. If they make a big deal about it, it increases the chances of splash damage on Trump.
posted by rhizome at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


I actually think the consensus of "let's have the ethics committee investigate this" is perfect, especially since it's a bipartisan consensus.

An ethics committee investigation + censure might be reasonable, I dunno.

In terms of how the media covers both sexual harassment allegations and as narrow political calculus I think a resignation is cleaner.

I used to reflexively go into nuance, range of possible interpretations mode when something lie this came up. I still do honestly. Inside my head. I think Franken's personally behavior is obviously less ghastly than Moore's, and very probably much better than Trump & others. But is there any reason to make that the thing we're discussing nationally? The exact penalty for each line crossed?
posted by mark k at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2017


Hah, I was thinking of Catch-22, but it was more spinning off the S.H. Sanders attitude.

Anyone willing to admit to wrongdoing and resign is exactly the sort of upstanding individual who we need in office. Someone who won't admit to wrongdoing is the sort of person who should resign.

That's some catch, that catch-22.
posted by RobotHero at 8:49 PM on November 18, 2017 [13 favorites]


> Anyone willing to admit to wrongdoing and resign is exactly the sort of upstanding individual who we need in office. Someone who won't admit to wrongdoing is the sort of person who should resign.

Fortunately, no individual is indispensable or irreplaceable.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:52 PM on November 18, 2017 [6 favorites]


Ray Walston, Luck Dragon: "The RCP average is like +5 Jones"

It.s Jones +0.2 right now. Pretty much all of the post-WP story polls have moved about 7 or 8 points toward Jones, regardless of their starting points.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:54 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


Reading job on the fucjer is sobering - all he ever does is get into catastrophic scandals then get rewarded by the people of Alabama by shocking election victories. This is just the latest shit and for all we know they may be into it too.
posted by Artw at 8:59 PM on November 18, 2017


Republicans are in a Catch 22 about it. If they make a big deal about it, it increases the chances of splash damage on Trump.

They've rotated the polarity of the dilithium crystal phase array. The IOKIYAR shield is now impervious to allegations of sexual misconduct, and in fact, uses that energy to recharge itself.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:01 PM on November 18, 2017 [16 favorites]


A next part of the conversation — after some consensus forms regarding when a misdeed is bad enough to warrant immediate censure — is just how to make accusers immune to incurring social penalties for "You ruined a great man's life/career!"

The possibility of such a pushback is one reason so many are reluctant to accuse—until at least one accusation has been made, because at that point you don't bear sole responsibility for said career-ruination (not that you ever did, it was the abuser's fault, but my point is the question of how to make society see that).
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:05 PM on November 18, 2017 [6 favorites]


A next part of the conversation — after some consensus forms regarding when a misdeed is bad enough to warrant immediate censure — is just how to make accusers immune to incurring social penalties for "You ruined a great man's life/career!"

Ruin them. They're not "great men" if they're pieces of shit.
posted by mikelieman at 9:32 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


But is there any reason to make that the thing we're discussing nationally? The exact penalty for each line crossed?

I sure hope so.
Not thinking about that has caused a lot of people a lot of time in prison.
posted by bongo_x at 9:48 PM on November 18, 2017


Oh, we're playing hardball with the Palestinians now. That always works. Good job, Jared.
posted by ctmf at 10:55 PM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]


Christ.
Someone has now posted this video of Tweeden sneaking up behind and rubbing and grabbing a guy on stage at a USO show.
posted by bongo_x at 11:02 PM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]


It.s Jones +0.2 right now

That's even worse than I thought.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:04 PM on November 18, 2017


Holy crap, that video
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:06 PM on November 18, 2017


Is the whole country seven years old? "Oh yeah well look what SHE did"? That's a defense now?
posted by ctmf at 11:09 PM on November 18, 2017 [13 favorites]


AHEM

@kylegriffin1: "Sources close to the W.H. reportedly said that Trump believes the allegations against Moore are bad for the GOP, but is reluctant to come out forcefully against Moore because of allegations he himself has faced."
posted by rhizome at 11:10 PM on November 18, 2017 [36 favorites]


Oh, good to know the President of the United States is struggling with first-year manager learning moments.
posted by ctmf at 11:14 PM on November 18, 2017 [7 favorites]


Fortunately, no individual is indispensable or irreplaceable.

That may be true, but as Theon Greyjoy notes, "It can always get worse."
posted by msalt at 1:58 AM on November 19, 2017 [3 favorites]


For your Sunday morning whimsy, Fahrenthold, Lori Rozsa and Drew Harwell report on the opening of Mar-a-Lago's social season. Bookings are still down but new groups have sprung up for the express purpose of putting money in Trump's pockets. The best part is Lara Trump, Eric's wife, is involved in a dog rescue charity that raises money like a dog.
Mar-a-Lago’s new winter season: The Red Cross Ball is out, the Trumpettes are in.
posted by peeedro at 2:45 AM on November 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


"Sources close to the W.H. reportedly said that Trump believes the allegations against Moore are bad for the GOP, but is reluctant to come out forcefully against Moore because of allegations he himself has faced."

Then why go after Al Franken?
posted by elsietheeel at 3:10 AM on November 19, 2017 [21 favorites]


her detailed account of the event is completely believable and his detail-free "I remember it differently" copout is completely and laughably contemptible

That was my initial take, but I am starting to wonder. Can someone accused even just say "nope didn't happen but it happens to a lot of people very often in society and that is something that we need to fix" in a liberal "believe women" environment? Wouldn't a full denial be considered inherently aggressive to the cause and improper? Could it be the case that "I don't remember it that way" is an attempt to deny to the extent permissible while remaining socially acceptable by not calling the woman a liar by implication, which a flat denial would do? It seems like a very damned if you do and damned if you don't type situation, whether or not the accused party is innocent. Once accused, our current norms leave the accused with no acceptable way to refute that isn't considered misogynistic.

(That said, the I don't recall things that way people could be totally guilty, each and every one of them.)
posted by bootlegpop at 3:20 AM on November 19, 2017 [9 favorites]


Then why go after Al Franken?

Trump believes it's bad FOR THE GOP to go after Moore. Franken isn't in the GOP.

It's not the act, it's the team
posted by mikelieman at 4:09 AM on November 19, 2017 [3 favorites]


The quote says the ALLEGATIONS are bad for the GOP and that Trump isn't condemning Moore because of the sexual assault allegations against Trump.

That's not about the GOP (whom Trump could give a fuck about) but about Trump himself.

So again, why attack Franken over sexual assault allegations (that are far more similar to the allegations leveled at Trump) and let Moore off the hook?
posted by elsietheeel at 4:39 AM on November 19, 2017


Oh, good to know the President of the United States is struggling with first-year manager learning moments.

Part of this could be explained by the White House's internal policy of self-delusion. Trump and his staff want to take into account public opinion in their public statements and proposals, but they can't accept the fact that it's against them.

As reported in Politico, Trump Still Loves Polls "The president often decries surveys showing him with slumping support as fake, but advisers say he can't stop himself from obsessively keeping track."
Aides in the White House often show Trump polls designed to make him feel good, according to aides and advisers. Usually they’re the ones that focus just on voters who cast ballots for him in 2016 or are potential Trump supporters —Trump’s base—but occasionally include public polls like Rasmussen, depending on what the numbers say.[...]

Adviser Jared Kushner often tells Trump not to trust traditional data, while former chief White House strategist Steve Bannon used to tell Trump to focus only on the 40 percent or so of Americans who make up his base.[...]

Yet several senior officials said they don’t trust the internal polls because they are “delusional” or “just not accurate,” in the words of two officials. The numbers Trump are shown are almost always higher than his public polling numbers. “I wouldn’t trust our polling on that,” one senior aide said, after ticking off numbers on health care earlier this year. [emphases added]
Some (but only some) of Trump's more boneheaded decisions may be explained by his handlers' collective refusal to let him face reality. c.f. The Washington Post's Daniel Drezner‏'s massive ongoing Twitter thread, "I'll believe that Trump is growing into the presidency when his staff stops talking about him like a toddler."
posted by Doktor Zed at 4:48 AM on November 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


Then why go after Al Franken?

Because as he told us in every rally, he’s a snake. Or the scorpion in another analogy. He literally can’t help attacking his enemies, even if it hurts him. It is his nature. Pavlov’s dogs had more self-control.
posted by chris24 at 5:00 AM on November 19, 2017 [25 favorites]


Well, at least the subhead writers are having fun.

WaPo: Federal aid claims jump tenfold in 2017, after series of record-breaking natural disasters
As the nation nears the end of a historically calamitous year, more than 4.7 million Americans — or about 1.4 percent of the population — have registered for disaster aid from FEMA.
posted by RedOrGreen at 5:13 AM on November 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


Then why go after Al Franken?

Narcissists are driven by a need at the core of their being that must be satisfied at all costs. It's a compulsion, he has no control over it. He's like an addict seeking a fix. Usually it's praise he's after; real or contrived, doesn't matter. But he also gets off on putting his enemies down, on dominating them. He sees an opening, he takes it - even if there's immediate blowback on him. After a lifetime of following his impulses with little or no repercussions he simply has no impulse control. He gets an urge, he acts on it.

Our expressions mirror our thoughts; when we're happy we smile, when we're sad we frown. Trump's expressions are like none I've ever seen; childish, crude, broken & cracked. They're a mirror of what's going on in his head as he tries to satisfy that gnawing hunger that sits where his soul should be then basking in the satisfaction of placating it.

It's beyond frightening to think that a man so out of control of himself has access to the levers of power. If he's not in control then who is? Those around him all battling to manipulate him this way or that. He literally is a puppet dancing on the strings of everyone he comes in contact with.
posted by scalefree at 6:05 AM on November 19, 2017 [36 favorites]


Someone has now posted this video of Tweeden sneaking up behind and rubbing and grabbing a guy on stage at a USO show.

>>Is the whole country seven years old? "Oh yeah well look what SHE did"? That's a defense now?

“Look what she did!” is not a defense, but “the 2006 USO tour was marked by frequent ribald humor including performers grinding against and groping each other, and Tweeden was just as involved with those behaviors as anyone, so the photo of Franken miming groping her should be interpreted in that context” is a defense.

From my POV, this is the weakest possible sexual harassment case I can imagine. You have a kiss that each person, 11 years later, remembers differently and a picture of pretend-groping in the context of a ribald USO tour where that behavior was common and had also been exhibited by the alleged victim. It’s not nothing, but on the continuum of sexual crimes it’s so close to nothing that you can’t tell the difference if you are standing where Moore or Trump are.

If this were any moment in time other than fall 2017, I’d say it’s ridiculous to expect an otherwise beloved and effective senator to resign because of one joke that crossed the line during a tour of line-crossing jokes. What rankles me is that it is the fall of 2017 and I’m concerned that if we try to be sensible about Franken, it’ll give the GOP rhetorical ammunition to keep harboring and defending rapists and child molestors. Therefore, much as it annoys me, I’m on side “Franken has to take one for the team.” And then, once we have established the Franken rule—“even the weakest possible harassment case means you leave politics”—we go after Moore and Trump and their ilk as loudly as possible.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:06 AM on November 19, 2017 [51 favorites]


Pater Aletheias: “the 2006 USO tour was marked by frequent ribald humor including performers grinding against and groping each other, and Tweeden was just as involved with those behaviors as anyone, so the photo of Franken miming groping her should be interpreted in that context”

Seems to me like a solid small-scale demonstration of the second half of the phrase "This is not not normal — and normal wasn't great either". I admit it can be tricky to untangle personal wrongdoing from background-radiation patriarchy, but… eh.

What rankles me is that it is the fall of 2017 and I’m concerned that if we try to be sensible about Franken, it’ll give the GOP rhetorical ammunition to keep harboring and defending rapists and child molestors.

I personally would support Franken resigning "even if" his behavior made him the worst sex offender in Washington (which is a weird sentence to write in the first place).
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:01 AM on November 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


And then, once we have established the Franken rule—“even the weakest possible harassment case means you leave politics”—we go after Moore and Trump and their ilk as loudly as possible.

Again, the problem with this "rule" is it will only apply to Democrats. It's akin to unilateral disarmament. Because Republicans Just Do Not Give A Fuck. While we drive out our own Senators over weak cases that no employment lawyer would take up outside of the US Senate, and establish the principal than any allegation is enough to end the career of any Democratic politician, they will stand by their child rapists to the death and weaponize the new standard with James O'keefe style "accusations" to drive Democrats out of flippable seats.

It's been really disheartening to see the blanket calls for resignation here and throughout the left leaning internet going on for days and days. The Senate has a process, Franken has agreed that the ethics process should be used, even the victim has forgiven him, stop digging. Stop the circular firing squad. Let the process work.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:25 AM on November 19, 2017 [59 favorites]


the Franken rule—“even the weakest possible harassment case means you leave politics”—we go after Moore and Trump and their ilk as loudly as possible.

A rule like that might give more power to victims, but if there isn't a broad, almost universal commitment to ensuring the integrity of the rule is preserved and harsh consequences for abusing it, there's a risk that also empowers the least scrupulous political actors, the kind who won't balk at planting evidence, paying bribes, etc., to implicate political opponents. Perversely, while it might empower victims, it also potentially rewards patterns of abuse and empowers the type of personality that abuses social rules and norms to gain power. It's a double bind and I'm not sure how the tension there could be resolved in the right direction without just relying on and trusting people to be decent and honorable. There's no workaround for it if some of the actors in a system just don't care and can't be relied upon to be even minimally decent that I can see that doesn't create this same kind of tension and risk of incentivizing even higher levels of unethical and antisocial behavior.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:32 AM on November 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


SNL nails Come Back, Barack (an amazing tribute to 90s R&B vids).
posted by TwoStride at 8:33 AM on November 19, 2017 [12 favorites]


Mnuchin is both a very bad person and a very stupid person.

Politico: “I didn’t realize that the pictures were public and going on the internet and viral,” Mnuchin told host Chris Wallace on “Fox News Sunday.” “But people have the right to do that. People can express what they want. That’s the great thing about social media today. People can say and communicate what they want.” [...] “I guess I should take that as a compliment that I look like a villain in a great, successful James Bond movie. But let me just say, I was very excited of having my signature on the money,” he added. “It’s obviously a great privilege and a great honor and something I’m very proud of.”
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:39 AM on November 19, 2017 [7 favorites]


Michael Birnbaum and Greg Jaffe, WaPo: Frustrated Foreign Leaders Bypass Washington in Search of Blue-State Allies:
Now some nations are finding that even if they are frustrated by President Trump’s Washington, they can still prosper from robust relations with the California Republic and a constellation of like-minded U.S. cities, some of which are bigger than European countries.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:39 AM on November 19, 2017 [11 favorites]


SNL nails Come Back, Barack (an amazing tribute to 90s R&B vids).

Little did the deplorables know, that by electing Trump they cemented Barack Obama in being the finest President of the millennial age.
posted by Talez at 8:41 AM on November 19, 2017 [10 favorites]


new thread
posted by infinitewindow at 8:45 AM on November 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


Michael Birnbaum and Greg Jaffe, WaPo: Frustrated Foreign Leaders Bypass Washington in Search of Blue-State Allies:

This. This is what I'm afraid of. 'The Big Sort': was cultural, now political.
posted by eclectist at 8:47 AM on November 19, 2017


I was very excited of having my signature on the money

He calls that a signature?
posted by rhizome at 9:03 AM on November 19, 2017 [6 favorites]


☔️🌊🍩☕️.
posted by petebest at 10:33 AM on November 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


🍪🍪🍺🍺
yes i know it's 10:30am shut up
🍺🍺🍺
*heads to new thread*
🍺🍺🍺🍺
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 10:34 AM on November 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


Is the whole country seven years old? "Oh yeah well look what SHE did"? That's a defense now?

That's not the defense. He didn't rape or shoot anyone. If he had it wouldn't matter if the victim raped or shot someone too.

Franken is not accused of a crime. The issue is whether it was unacceptable behavior. The video muddies the waters for me as to what was considered acceptable behavior in this situation. The whole thing is based on her statement that pretending to grab someone without their consent, and the kissing skit, were out of line at those events and offensive to her, and constituted sexual harassment. Now there are videos and photos of her grabbing, groping, kissing, and having simulated sex with people at those events. That was her act. It's hard to see how she couldn't make the same charge against any of the many other people involved, or them against her.

This is completely situational and not universal. If a baseball player slaps another player on the ass in the dugout no one considers it assault. If he did it to a random guy at the mall it would be a different story. If he did it to Leean Tweedan at the mall it would be assault. But this sort of seems like saying we were at a nude beach and you took your clothes off, or were in a boxing match and you punched me.

I didn't react to the original charge thinking Franken would never do this, it seemed plausible to me, I don't know that much about him and am not particularly a fan. Finding out later she was a Fox News contributor, combined with the timing, made me suspicious, but even RWNJ's get assaulted, and even Democrats are assailants.

Now I'm wondering if his call for an investigation and her immediately accepting his apology and saying he shouldn't step down weren't related. Anyone who thinks the Brietbart crowd wouldn't love to weaponize this issue is kidding themselves. I'll bet there are more to come, and they will be completely ridiculous, because the point is not just to hurt Dems, that's a side benefit, it's to make people think "isn't this whole issue ridiculous?"
posted by bongo_x at 11:52 AM on November 19, 2017 [8 favorites]


Don Pepino's comment in the new thread addresses the "that was her act" slipperiness:
[T]here is a vast gulf of difference between a theatrical onstage "kiss" performed by two people in character and the rehearsal kiss, when they were alone and being themselves. Her onstage "grope" and the mimed grope on the plane while the other "performer" was asleep are worlds apart. Al Franken was not playing a character. He was, I was heartbroken to have to admit to myself, being himself.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:04 PM on November 19, 2017 [6 favorites]


* * NEW THREAD * *
posted by christopherious at 12:04 PM on November 19, 2017


You Can't Tip a Buick: "Fortunately, no individual is indispensable or irreplaceable."

FALSE - The graveyards are full of those guys!
posted by Chrysostom at 9:28 PM on November 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


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