Ask a Manager's Alison Green on harassment: "I didn't get it right then"
December 19, 2017 11:53 AM Subscribe
Until now, despite working as a management guru who advises women on things like handling creepy men in the office, she had not addressed charges that she had enabled a boss’ inappropriate behavior." (Washington City Paper). Alison Green of Ask A Manager breaks her near-decade of silence on her role as unofficial HR manager in the multiple harassment complaints against Rob Kampia of the Marijuana Policy Project.
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I read AAM regularly and, while I’m more than willing to accept that she’s become a much better manager in the last 10 years, and in truth, her advice is usually on target...it’s not like 2008 was a different era for office norms, and the kind of behavior she engaged in was off-the-charts inappropriate.
Maybe she sees herself in some of these letters, and all of her advice is her way to correct that behavior in the larger world as she may. I personally am not going to begrudge a person who learns from mistakes and goes on to be a positive influence...but I doubt that one underling whom the CEO attacked is going to see it that way.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:12 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
Maybe she sees herself in some of these letters, and all of her advice is her way to correct that behavior in the larger world as she may. I personally am not going to begrudge a person who learns from mistakes and goes on to be a positive influence...but I doubt that one underling whom the CEO attacked is going to see it that way.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:12 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I read her post today and found it to mostly a sincere mea culpa. She explained the reasoning that led her to make the decisions she made, and further explained how that reasoning was flawed and how her decisions hurt people. She’s been called out in the comments for using a lot of passive voice and distancing / minimizing statements, and she seems to be taking those call outs to heart.
The more I think about this, the more sure I am that she got it wrong at the time, and the more unsure I am about what exactly would have been involved in getting it right.
posted by KathrynT at 12:12 PM on December 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
The more I think about this, the more sure I am that she got it wrong at the time, and the more unsure I am about what exactly would have been involved in getting it right.
posted by KathrynT at 12:12 PM on December 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Mistaken comment deleted by request, please refresh the thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:15 PM on December 19, 2017
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:15 PM on December 19, 2017
She certainly paints herself as a powerless person in a bad situation making not the best choices, I think its a good first step. She doesn't seem to have much in the way of apology for all those women who came to her because their boss was a predator and she failed them utterly.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 12:19 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 12:19 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
One thing that needs to happen - the legalization community needs to clearly tell the MPP that either Kampia goes, or the MPP does.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:22 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:22 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
This is an impossible position to be in, to figure out what to do when your boss is misbehaving and the only thing to do is leave, but you want to protect the organization and your underlings. American workplace culture exploits normal people who give a shit into one-sided relationships like this. Youre a human being so you care about your group, but your boss and your company don't give a shit about you. I can't blame anyone for not knowing how to handle an impossible situation.
posted by bleep at 12:23 PM on December 19, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by bleep at 12:23 PM on December 19, 2017 [26 favorites]
Organizations are not more important than people. Full stop.
posted by runcibleshaw at 12:25 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by runcibleshaw at 12:25 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Gee, I think her explanation is just fine. She really didn't have the power to do anything. It's unfair for women to be in the situation where they are the guardians and gatekeepers for male bad behavior but until women own the means of capital and have access to capital, this will continue to be the case whether they like it or not. We are in a business and legal world created by men and for men. Your "choice" is to be the fall gal and lose your job and maybe get blackballed entirely...all for some dude who wants to run his hands over an employee...? How is that fair? And we are supposed to live with men, love men, raise boys to be men, but then we aren't supposed to like them well enough that we get confused when they behave inappropriately? Women can't win in these situations. They can always do better and it's important to have some road maps but we all need the road maps now – I appreciate her candor but I'm sad she's wasted so much mental energy tearing herself up about a situation that was beyond her control.
posted by amanda at 12:33 PM on December 19, 2017 [84 favorites]
posted by amanda at 12:33 PM on December 19, 2017 [84 favorites]
An organization is comprised of people. I agree that she blew it, but if the organization folds, all those people lose their jobs.
She didn’t have the power to fire Kampia. The people who did have that power made it clear that they were not going to use it. She thought she had the power to protect and help the people working there, and she thought that was enough. She was wrong.
posted by KathrynT at 12:33 PM on December 19, 2017 [19 favorites]
She didn’t have the power to fire Kampia. The people who did have that power made it clear that they were not going to use it. She thought she had the power to protect and help the people working there, and she thought that was enough. She was wrong.
posted by KathrynT at 12:33 PM on December 19, 2017 [19 favorites]
Organizations are not more important than people. Full stop.
This is a very easy position to take until it's your career on the line, and there's considerable doubt whether your actions will, in fact, protect the people you want to. I'm not saying she couldn't have done better; I'm just saying I'd be cautious about pronouncing flatly about what I'd do in a situation like this until I'd done it myself.
When I was a grad student, there was a professor commonly rumored to creep on undergrads. I didn't have first-hand information on this. What would I have done had an undergrad come to me with anything less than a report of straight-up rape? (I.e., something not criminal at the time.) I like to think that I would have backed that student completely, regardless of the wreckage it would have made of my career, even knowing that a tenured professor was not likely to suffer significant repercussions for his behavior. But I really don't know.
And, once again, we find ourselves fixated more on the women around these abusive men than the men themselves.
posted by praemunire at 12:38 PM on December 19, 2017 [60 favorites]
This is a very easy position to take until it's your career on the line, and there's considerable doubt whether your actions will, in fact, protect the people you want to. I'm not saying she couldn't have done better; I'm just saying I'd be cautious about pronouncing flatly about what I'd do in a situation like this until I'd done it myself.
When I was a grad student, there was a professor commonly rumored to creep on undergrads. I didn't have first-hand information on this. What would I have done had an undergrad come to me with anything less than a report of straight-up rape? (I.e., something not criminal at the time.) I like to think that I would have backed that student completely, regardless of the wreckage it would have made of my career, even knowing that a tenured professor was not likely to suffer significant repercussions for his behavior. But I really don't know.
And, once again, we find ourselves fixated more on the women around these abusive men than the men themselves.
posted by praemunire at 12:38 PM on December 19, 2017 [60 favorites]
Looks like someone else called her out on the lack of apology and she responded
If Alison was really concerned about doing something that could be considered 'unwelcome', why write an article that could very well put those victims back in the spotlight, especially without discussing it with them first? Isn't it important for victims to have a say about how their story is told instead of told to them?
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 12:38 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I haven’t reached out to them individually. I’ve thought about it but I don’t want to do anything that would be unwelcome. I’m going to think more about it.If I was a former co-worker who was harassed out of job, I would be horrified if the person I went to for help turned their abdication of responsibility into a public article followed by endless comments saying about how brave this person is while not bothering to apologize more directly or at all.
If Alison was really concerned about doing something that could be considered 'unwelcome', why write an article that could very well put those victims back in the spotlight, especially without discussing it with them first? Isn't it important for victims to have a say about how their story is told instead of told to them?
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 12:38 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
This is the trap of women's powerlessness: She feels guilty, not because she didn't take action, not because she took the wrong action, but because the action she took wasn't effective; it was blocked by more powerful men who'd decided that abuse of women was an acceptable side effect of their business plans.
She's feeling guilty and is being excoriated over not doing more, over not finding a solution that helped the women that Kampia harmed. Maybe she did have other options; maybe she could've done more. But it's not like she shoved the complaints aside or pretended the abuse wasn't happening.
Any ire being thrown her way should be redirected to Kampia and the board of directors. We have far too many tendencies to blame the woman who might have, if she had been lucky, been able to nudge the scales in the right direction, instead of blaming the man who cause the problems in the first place.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:43 PM on December 19, 2017 [110 favorites]
She's feeling guilty and is being excoriated over not doing more, over not finding a solution that helped the women that Kampia harmed. Maybe she did have other options; maybe she could've done more. But it's not like she shoved the complaints aside or pretended the abuse wasn't happening.
Any ire being thrown her way should be redirected to Kampia and the board of directors. We have far too many tendencies to blame the woman who might have, if she had been lucky, been able to nudge the scales in the right direction, instead of blaming the man who cause the problems in the first place.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:43 PM on December 19, 2017 [110 favorites]
while not bothering to apologize more directly or at all.
We just had an AskMe within the last month or so where someone who'd engaged in inappropropriate conduct at work wanted to know if he should reach out directly to apologize to those affected. There were a lot of "hell, no!" responses in there. Not from everyone. I myself didn't really agree. But it's not an insane position. People don't want to be reminded. Sometimes an apology is done more to purge the conscience of the offender than to benefit the victim; sometimes it's almost impossible for an apology not to read that way under the circumstances, regardless of intent. And, yes, a face-to-face, personal interaction is different from something written in an article without names.
posted by praemunire at 12:44 PM on December 19, 2017 [32 favorites]
We just had an AskMe within the last month or so where someone who'd engaged in inappropropriate conduct at work wanted to know if he should reach out directly to apologize to those affected. There were a lot of "hell, no!" responses in there. Not from everyone. I myself didn't really agree. But it's not an insane position. People don't want to be reminded. Sometimes an apology is done more to purge the conscience of the offender than to benefit the victim; sometimes it's almost impossible for an apology not to read that way under the circumstances, regardless of intent. And, yes, a face-to-face, personal interaction is different from something written in an article without names.
posted by praemunire at 12:44 PM on December 19, 2017 [32 favorites]
while not bothering to apologize more directly or at all.
Well, I would say that is her consistent view about the right thing to do. In her advice to others she almost always tells them not to reach out and apologize.
She seems to be taking criticism well and to have really made an effort to be better and make up for it.
Meanwhile the abuser is still at the organization and it is known to anyone being abused by him that the board has his back. I think we have found the real problem.
posted by Emmy Rae at 12:49 PM on December 19, 2017
Well, I would say that is her consistent view about the right thing to do. In her advice to others she almost always tells them not to reach out and apologize.
She seems to be taking criticism well and to have really made an effort to be better and make up for it.
Meanwhile the abuser is still at the organization and it is known to anyone being abused by him that the board has his back. I think we have found the real problem.
posted by Emmy Rae at 12:49 PM on December 19, 2017
ErisLordFreedom: "But it's not like she shoved the complaints aside or pretended the abuse wasn't happening."
As someone who was a friend of the harasser and remained a friend of the harasser and as someone who in this very paragraph has demonstrated a facility with lying to herself, I do not give her the benefit of the doubt that you seem determined to.
posted by TypographicalError at 12:50 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
As someone who was a friend of the harasser and remained a friend of the harasser and as someone who in this very paragraph has demonstrated a facility with lying to herself, I do not give her the benefit of the doubt that you seem determined to.
posted by TypographicalError at 12:50 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Oh, good, we've reached the point of the #MeToo movement where we pick a woman who didn't do a good enough job with her limited power, and then we metaphorically stone her to death for not doing the things we'd like to imagine we'd do ourselves were we caught in the same situation.
posted by palomar at 12:55 PM on December 19, 2017 [151 favorites]
posted by palomar at 12:55 PM on December 19, 2017 [151 favorites]
Honestly, the idea that she repeatedly told her boss to change his behavior is incredible to me. I can't imagine anyone I work with standing up so aggressively on my behalf. I don't know what the other shouldas are but that alone seems pretty praiseworthy to me.
posted by Emmy Rae at 12:57 PM on December 19, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by Emmy Rae at 12:57 PM on December 19, 2017 [23 favorites]
But it's not like she shoved the complaints aside or pretended the abuse wasn't happening.
That statement depends on how much weight you give the article from 2010 in which it accused her of being a much more willing accomplice.
OWe just had an AskMe within the last month or so where someone who'd engaged in inappropropriate conduct at work wanted to know if he should reach out directly to apologize to those affected.
Directly doesn't have to mean calling them up or leaving a sad face emoji on their FB page, it could have been more direct in the very public article she just posted.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:01 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
That statement depends on how much weight you give the article from 2010 in which it accused her of being a much more willing accomplice.
OWe just had an AskMe within the last month or so where someone who'd engaged in inappropropriate conduct at work wanted to know if he should reach out directly to apologize to those affected.
Directly doesn't have to mean calling them up or leaving a sad face emoji on their FB page, it could have been more direct in the very public article she just posted.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:01 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
The people reading the article aren’t the people she owes an apology to, though. Why should she apologize to us?
posted by KathrynT at 1:06 PM on December 19, 2017
posted by KathrynT at 1:06 PM on December 19, 2017
If Alison was really concerned about doing something that could be considered 'unwelcome', why write an article that could very well put those victims back in the spotlight, especially without discussing it with them first? Isn't it important for victims to have a say about how their story is told instead of told to them?
Probably because she runs a popular blog where she gives work advice and the 2010 article with "all the inaccuracies" that paints her in a bad light as an HR professional is making the rounds on social media at the moment because of the #metoo movement.
posted by all about eevee at 1:15 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Probably because she runs a popular blog where she gives work advice and the 2010 article with "all the inaccuracies" that paints her in a bad light as an HR professional is making the rounds on social media at the moment because of the #metoo movement.
posted by all about eevee at 1:15 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Well, it’s not just the 2010 article. Kampia was moved out of his position last month and into one where he has much less power, and speculation has been rampant that it’s been because the cultural shift that means that his previous bad behavior is much more of a PR nightmare than it used to be.
posted by KathrynT at 1:18 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 1:18 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Alison makes clear in the post/comments that the impetus for making the post was that she was contacted for comment by a reporter, undoubtedly for the 12/19/2017 Washington City Paper article linked in the FPP (where she is quoted). So, in that sense, it's her having her say about how her story is told.
posted by AndrewInDC at 1:22 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by AndrewInDC at 1:22 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
I feel the same as KathrynT: It's obvious that she made the wrong choice, but it's not obvious what the right choice would have been. She tried to change the company and to hold the principle abuser accountable, but was blocked by a network of his buddies.
This is where she fucked up the worst, and she knows it: I’ve regretted that decision for years. I wish I’d made a different call. The people calling for his removal deserved my explicit support, and I failed them by not giving that.
I believe the right thing for her to do in that situation would have been to listen to the victims. Would they want to take the risk of the company folding? We don't know what they wanted, though. I don't know if she asked; she should have.
But even then, she thinks that she wouldn't have succeeded in removing him, because - again, the people calling for his removal were blocked by his network of buddies. But we're focused on her, a woman who gave up a losing fight in the wrong way and for wrong reasons. Not the men who blocked her.
And, once again, we find ourselves fixated more on the women around these abusive men than the men themselves.
I've noticed a gendered pattern in response to this story. Obviously, it's not a 100% correlation, but it seems that men are less willing to extend her the benefit of a doubt. I honestly wonder how much of this is because the situation is emotionally more distant.
As I read her statement, I thought about how sexual harassment has made me complicit as well. Everyone who doesn't take a zero-tolerance policy - who isn't willing to blow up the bridges and salt the fields - can be called complicit, because its our collective unwillingness to do this that keeps sexual harassment going. Even though sometimes we are powerless to make change and there will be consequences, each individual act of tolerance contributes to a culture where sexual harassment ... is tolerated.
I've shut up and taken abuse because I didn't want to deal with the repercussions, including finding a new job. I've kept relationships with people I came to realize were more broken and repulsive than I thought, despite my (naive) hopes I could change their minds. I've reflexively smiled at cat-callers and then hurried away, even though I know that encourages them.
I've never been in a position where I was responsible for someone lower on the hierarchy and didn't do anything. (I've always been low on the hierarchy.) But I feel a duty to other women nonetheless, and, as a woman, my complicity is painfully and visibly obvious to me. I want to believe that I won't continue to be complicit, and I'm working to change that - but that experience is still there.
I can't speak for other women, but that is part of the reason why I feel some sympathy.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 1:28 PM on December 19, 2017 [76 favorites]
This is where she fucked up the worst, and she knows it: I’ve regretted that decision for years. I wish I’d made a different call. The people calling for his removal deserved my explicit support, and I failed them by not giving that.
I believe the right thing for her to do in that situation would have been to listen to the victims. Would they want to take the risk of the company folding? We don't know what they wanted, though. I don't know if she asked; she should have.
But even then, she thinks that she wouldn't have succeeded in removing him, because - again, the people calling for his removal were blocked by his network of buddies. But we're focused on her, a woman who gave up a losing fight in the wrong way and for wrong reasons. Not the men who blocked her.
And, once again, we find ourselves fixated more on the women around these abusive men than the men themselves.
I've noticed a gendered pattern in response to this story. Obviously, it's not a 100% correlation, but it seems that men are less willing to extend her the benefit of a doubt. I honestly wonder how much of this is because the situation is emotionally more distant.
As I read her statement, I thought about how sexual harassment has made me complicit as well. Everyone who doesn't take a zero-tolerance policy - who isn't willing to blow up the bridges and salt the fields - can be called complicit, because its our collective unwillingness to do this that keeps sexual harassment going. Even though sometimes we are powerless to make change and there will be consequences, each individual act of tolerance contributes to a culture where sexual harassment ... is tolerated.
I've shut up and taken abuse because I didn't want to deal with the repercussions, including finding a new job. I've kept relationships with people I came to realize were more broken and repulsive than I thought, despite my (naive) hopes I could change their minds. I've reflexively smiled at cat-callers and then hurried away, even though I know that encourages them.
I've never been in a position where I was responsible for someone lower on the hierarchy and didn't do anything. (I've always been low on the hierarchy.) But I feel a duty to other women nonetheless, and, as a woman, my complicity is painfully and visibly obvious to me. I want to believe that I won't continue to be complicit, and I'm working to change that - but that experience is still there.
I can't speak for other women, but that is part of the reason why I feel some sympathy.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 1:28 PM on December 19, 2017 [76 favorites]
I am also of the view that she didn't do it right but it's not clear what "doing it right" would entail when she had no effective power in the situation. She was the dude's chief of staff - she wasn't the company lawyer, who might have had some leverage, she wasn't on the board, which was apparently enthusiastically complicit. She wasn't even HR. She called him out, she pushed back, she tried to get the board to do something, and... they didn't. And the harasser showed no interest in changing his behavior. That's just not something one person can solve. Sexism and harassment are institutional problems, and need to be solved on an institutional level.
posted by restless_nomad at 1:36 PM on December 19, 2017 [34 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 1:36 PM on December 19, 2017 [34 favorites]
Which is why our response needs to be not excoriating Green, but telling the MPP "Not good enough. Shitcan the abusive predatory asshole."
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:42 PM on December 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:42 PM on December 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
Should we not be naming and excoriating the board members who were enabling and complicit? I, too, fall under why is the woman who tried and failed be the one to get the majority of the bile?
posted by jadepearl at 1:46 PM on December 19, 2017 [44 favorites]
posted by jadepearl at 1:46 PM on December 19, 2017 [44 favorites]
I've noticed a gendered pattern in response to this story. Obviously, it's not a 100% correlation, but it seems that men are less willing to extend her the benefit of a doubt. I honestly wonder how much of this is because the situation is emotionally more distant.
This is related to something I've noticed in this #MeToo moment, where men are so blown away by these relevations, and the response runs the gamut from "she must be lying" to "why didn't you tell the police this terrible thing happened to you" to "I can't believe this happened to you, I'm so sorry." Obviously the latter response is the "best" but all of them are informed by a level of disbelief and shock that, as a woman, I find wearying.
Similarly, I imagine many men have no idea how often women are put in the position of policing men who behave badly like this, even if the man is in a position of authority over them.
posted by lunasol at 1:53 PM on December 19, 2017 [51 favorites]
This is related to something I've noticed in this #MeToo moment, where men are so blown away by these relevations, and the response runs the gamut from "she must be lying" to "why didn't you tell the police this terrible thing happened to you" to "I can't believe this happened to you, I'm so sorry." Obviously the latter response is the "best" but all of them are informed by a level of disbelief and shock that, as a woman, I find wearying.
Similarly, I imagine many men have no idea how often women are put in the position of policing men who behave badly like this, even if the man is in a position of authority over them.
posted by lunasol at 1:53 PM on December 19, 2017 [51 favorites]
I, too, fall under why is the woman who tried and failed be the one to get the majority of the bile?
Because no matter what the actual question is, it's always going to be the woman who didn't do a good enough job of preventing the man from doing the bad thing.
posted by mudpuppie at 1:56 PM on December 19, 2017 [39 favorites]
Because no matter what the actual question is, it's always going to be the woman who didn't do a good enough job of preventing the man from doing the bad thing.
posted by mudpuppie at 1:56 PM on December 19, 2017 [39 favorites]
Obviously, it's not a 100% correlation, but it seems that men are less willing to extend her the benefit of a doubt. I honestly wonder how much of this is because the situation is emotionally more distant.
Unlike most women, most men have not been in the real-life position of seeing abuse or harassment directed at someone near them (not necessarily someone they were responsible for) and had to genuinely confront the actual consequences of doing something. So it becomes another game of "why didn't she just...?"
posted by praemunire at 1:58 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Unlike most women, most men have not been in the real-life position of seeing abuse or harassment directed at someone near them (not necessarily someone they were responsible for) and had to genuinely confront the actual consequences of doing something. So it becomes another game of "why didn't she just...?"
posted by praemunire at 1:58 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Because no matter what the actual question is, it's always going to be the woman who didn't do a good enough job of preventing the man from doing the bad thing.
Which, by the way, we internalize, which is why being a victim ends up feeling like something to be ashamed of.
I realize I'm preaching to the choir, but I didn't want to leave it unsaid.
posted by mudpuppie at 1:59 PM on December 19, 2017 [23 favorites]
Which, by the way, we internalize, which is why being a victim ends up feeling like something to be ashamed of.
I realize I'm preaching to the choir, but I didn't want to leave it unsaid.
posted by mudpuppie at 1:59 PM on December 19, 2017 [23 favorites]
Exactly.
What she leaves out of this "apology" is that seven MPP staff quit immediately over this, plus women on the Board, and that her staying gave Kampia cover, because she stood by him and didn't quit when the others did. She also needs to apologize to women like me in the movement, who have been forced to deal with him because of his continued position. He's toxic and predatory and gross and none of us should have to work with him. Men in this movement have a lot to answer for, as well. Per the whisper network, there are worse stories and accusations out there.
posted by gingerbeer at 2:08 PM on December 19, 2017 [18 favorites]
What she leaves out of this "apology" is that seven MPP staff quit immediately over this, plus women on the Board, and that her staying gave Kampia cover, because she stood by him and didn't quit when the others did. She also needs to apologize to women like me in the movement, who have been forced to deal with him because of his continued position. He's toxic and predatory and gross and none of us should have to work with him. Men in this movement have a lot to answer for, as well. Per the whisper network, there are worse stories and accusations out there.
posted by gingerbeer at 2:08 PM on December 19, 2017 [18 favorites]
Nonprofit org board members are listed on their tax reports, which have to be publicly filed.
2009's board members:
Bill Dunn - Director of the Board
Joby Pritzker - Director of the Board
Rene Ruiz - Director of the Board
Aundre Speciale - Director of the Board
Peter Lewis - Chair of the Board
Debby Goldsberry - Vice Chair of the Board
Rob Kampia - Secretary of the Board
John Gilmore - Treasurer of the Board
Alison Green - Chief of Staff
Peter Lewis is the one who spoke to the press, in an article titled "Rob Kampia takes therapy leave after sexual misconduct."
In 2010, the board was different. Looks like they purged the women along with Lewis:
(1) Rene Ruiz - Chair of the Board
(2) Aundre Speciale - Vice Chair of the Board
(3) Rob Kampia - Secretary of the Board
(4) John Gilmore - Treasurer of the Board
(5) Bill Dunn - Director of the Board
(6) Joby Pritzker - Director of the Board
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:09 PM on December 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
2009's board members:
Bill Dunn - Director of the Board
Joby Pritzker - Director of the Board
Rene Ruiz - Director of the Board
Aundre Speciale - Director of the Board
Peter Lewis - Chair of the Board
Debby Goldsberry - Vice Chair of the Board
Rob Kampia - Secretary of the Board
John Gilmore - Treasurer of the Board
Alison Green - Chief of Staff
Peter Lewis is the one who spoke to the press, in an article titled "Rob Kampia takes therapy leave after sexual misconduct."
In 2010, the board was different. Looks like they purged the women along with Lewis:
(1) Rene Ruiz - Chair of the Board
(2) Aundre Speciale - Vice Chair of the Board
(3) Rob Kampia - Secretary of the Board
(4) John Gilmore - Treasurer of the Board
(5) Bill Dunn - Director of the Board
(6) Joby Pritzker - Director of the Board
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:09 PM on December 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
She also needs to apologize to women like me in the movement, who have been forced to deal with him because of his continued position.
You clearly have more info than the rest of us do - how is it that his still being there is her fault? It seems from her narrative that she stayed to keep some leadership in the organization but did not actually work with him again once it was clear that no substantive disciplinary action would be taken.
posted by restless_nomad at 2:13 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
You clearly have more info than the rest of us do - how is it that his still being there is her fault? It seems from her narrative that she stayed to keep some leadership in the organization but did not actually work with him again once it was clear that no substantive disciplinary action would be taken.
posted by restless_nomad at 2:13 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
Debby Goldsberry resigned from the Board over this -- she wasn't "purged".
I don't blame Greene as much as I blame Kampia himself, for sure. But had she quit when the other staff did, I think the Board would have taken this much more seriously. At the time, her standing by him gave him and the Board a huge amount of cover, that it couldn't be THAT bad because the woman who was chief of staff was saying that it was okay and she was going to take care of things. She had more power then than she's acknowledging now.
posted by gingerbeer at 2:21 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I don't blame Greene as much as I blame Kampia himself, for sure. But had she quit when the other staff did, I think the Board would have taken this much more seriously. At the time, her standing by him gave him and the Board a huge amount of cover, that it couldn't be THAT bad because the woman who was chief of staff was saying that it was okay and she was going to take care of things. She had more power then than she's acknowledging now.
posted by gingerbeer at 2:21 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
That's terribly sad. It clearly didn't end the way she thought it would.
posted by restless_nomad at 2:23 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by restless_nomad at 2:23 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
(I am currently dealing with a situation that has a lot of well-meaning women following the path from "Oh, he just needs to understand that that behavior is over the line" to "Surely if I just say this firmly enough he will change his behavior" to "I will put our friendship on the line; I know he values me/our relationship enough to change his ways" to "...oh." to "Fuck him and all his works". It is heartbreaking to watch.)
posted by restless_nomad at 2:41 PM on December 19, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 2:41 PM on December 19, 2017 [20 favorites]
She had more power then than she's acknowledging now.
I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the argument that if Green had just quit, it would have forced the board's hand. If the mass resignations didn't give them pause, why would hers have? You argue that she was a fig leaf, but it's clear that the board really wasn't worried about how they looked. She didn't keep Kampia on - the board did.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:42 PM on December 19, 2017 [32 favorites]
I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the argument that if Green had just quit, it would have forced the board's hand. If the mass resignations didn't give them pause, why would hers have? You argue that she was a fig leaf, but it's clear that the board really wasn't worried about how they looked. She didn't keep Kampia on - the board did.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:42 PM on December 19, 2017 [32 favorites]
I think she acquitted herself pretty well; 2009 was indeed a different time, and very few of the well meaning men and women I've known would have had the conviction, fortitude, and outright courage to do as much as she did back then.
From the people who condemn her utterly, I wouldn't mind hearing how they have personally confronted sexual harassers; I have maybe a dozen times: a couple of friends, a few men in the workplace, and the rest in public places. Every single occasion was intense. I was angry every time and the outcomes were fairly ambivalent. I lost those friends, but I didn't think their friendship was worth having in the first place once I realized how they were acting; in the workplace they walked on eggshells when I was around, but I have no reason to believe they stopped doing it -- nor did the culture of the company improve discernibly; and in public it almost always threatened to devolve into violence. I stopped taking the bus mainly because I didn't want to continue to feel responsible to do something about the execrable behavior of a significant fraction of the rest of the male population.
posted by jamjam at 3:16 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
From the people who condemn her utterly, I wouldn't mind hearing how they have personally confronted sexual harassers; I have maybe a dozen times: a couple of friends, a few men in the workplace, and the rest in public places. Every single occasion was intense. I was angry every time and the outcomes were fairly ambivalent. I lost those friends, but I didn't think their friendship was worth having in the first place once I realized how they were acting; in the workplace they walked on eggshells when I was around, but I have no reason to believe they stopped doing it -- nor did the culture of the company improve discernibly; and in public it almost always threatened to devolve into violence. I stopped taking the bus mainly because I didn't want to continue to feel responsible to do something about the execrable behavior of a significant fraction of the rest of the male population.
posted by jamjam at 3:16 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
And yeah, in 2009 (well, Jan 2010, now that I think about it) I was dealing with a manager who had asked his new hire to have sex with him via Craiglist Missed Connections, and the coworker wouldn't go to HR (or let me do so) because she was absolutely 100% certain nothing would be done. I think she was wrong in that specific instance, mostly because the HR person and the CEO were very tough ladies, but every other company in that industry? Yeah, nothing would have been done.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:20 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 3:20 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't mind hearing how they have personally confronted sexual harassers
I'm curious about that too. About the only thing I can think which would actually get results, as opposed to amounting to nothing more than a performance of rectitude, is to quietly help the accusers put lawsuits together, and hope the board caves in before any of the suits actually come to court. And that seems like a very personally dangerous approach, for Green.
posted by Coventry at 3:24 PM on December 19, 2017
I'm curious about that too. About the only thing I can think which would actually get results, as opposed to amounting to nothing more than a performance of rectitude, is to quietly help the accusers put lawsuits together, and hope the board caves in before any of the suits actually come to court. And that seems like a very personally dangerous approach, for Green.
posted by Coventry at 3:24 PM on December 19, 2017
I've noticed in threads like this that it's always easiest for us to have sympathy for people who are like us. We can imagine ourselves in their shoes; we can see how complicated their situation is, how difficult it would be to know what the right thing to do would be, and how difficult it would be to do it. Maybe we remember ourselves in a similar situation; we remember how hard it was.
And so we end up with islands of sympathy that overlap just enough for bad behaviour to continue. Powerful men give each other the benefit of the doubt; they empathize with how difficult it is to resist temptation or to know when "yes" means "yes!" and when it means "please don't fire me". People who might call them to account give each other the benefit of the doubt; they empathize with how difficult it is to act when you know that nothing is likely to change except that you'll probably lose your job. Everybody ends up getting a pass from somebody.
Comments in the HR thread linked in the FPP offer a different perspective than the general tenor of discussion in this one, and I think that thread is worth a read.
posted by clawsoon at 3:37 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
And so we end up with islands of sympathy that overlap just enough for bad behaviour to continue. Powerful men give each other the benefit of the doubt; they empathize with how difficult it is to resist temptation or to know when "yes" means "yes!" and when it means "please don't fire me". People who might call them to account give each other the benefit of the doubt; they empathize with how difficult it is to act when you know that nothing is likely to change except that you'll probably lose your job. Everybody ends up getting a pass from somebody.
Comments in the HR thread linked in the FPP offer a different perspective than the general tenor of discussion in this one, and I think that thread is worth a read.
posted by clawsoon at 3:37 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Just because everyone seems to make this mistake, Alison Green is not, and never has been, an HR person.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:39 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 3:39 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
The people reading the article aren’t the people she owes an apology to, though. Why should she apologize to us?
I'm not sure how you shifted the 'co-workers she failed' to 'the readers'. I think this thread and the article comments are clearly saying the apology would be to those who came to her directly and depending if you trust the articles or her post, she didn't or couldn't help.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 3:53 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure how you shifted the 'co-workers she failed' to 'the readers'. I think this thread and the article comments are clearly saying the apology would be to those who came to her directly and depending if you trust the articles or her post, she didn't or couldn't help.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 3:53 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think describing resigning in protest as a 'performance of rectitude' is a bit much.
posted by inire at 4:04 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by inire at 4:04 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
To the apologists for Green: would you feel the same way if she had accepted, for 6 years, Kampia displaying repeated racist behavior? Would it be ok with you if she held orientation sessions for new staff who were minorities, where she let them know that Kampia was racist, that's just the way it is, and they can expect to be called names, harassed, personally targeted, and treated differently from white employees on a regular basis?
I'd bet exceedingly good money that very few people here would argue that the *exact* same damage control Green did for Kampia would have been ok were he a racist instead of a sexist.
Yes, of course, he is the major shithead in this situation. That doesn't mean her behavior cannot be questioned. This was an article by her and that is why we are discussing her. It doesn't at all mean that commenters don't hold Kampia responsible for his own actions.
Also, this stuff was and is illegal. It constitutes a hostile work environment. After attempts to reason with Kampia and the board failed, YES she should have been quietly helping employees document the abuse and bring suit. That is the only thing turds like Kampia understand, financial repercussions.
Yes, it would be a huge shame if an organization whose stated mission is worthy were to suffer for the head jackass's behavior, but of the two bad options at that point, lawsuits are far preferable to toleration of the intolerable and repeatedly sending female employees the message that they are subject to abuse at any time because of their gender.
posted by nirblegee at 4:23 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I'd bet exceedingly good money that very few people here would argue that the *exact* same damage control Green did for Kampia would have been ok were he a racist instead of a sexist.
Yes, of course, he is the major shithead in this situation. That doesn't mean her behavior cannot be questioned. This was an article by her and that is why we are discussing her. It doesn't at all mean that commenters don't hold Kampia responsible for his own actions.
Also, this stuff was and is illegal. It constitutes a hostile work environment. After attempts to reason with Kampia and the board failed, YES she should have been quietly helping employees document the abuse and bring suit. That is the only thing turds like Kampia understand, financial repercussions.
Yes, it would be a huge shame if an organization whose stated mission is worthy were to suffer for the head jackass's behavior, but of the two bad options at that point, lawsuits are far preferable to toleration of the intolerable and repeatedly sending female employees the message that they are subject to abuse at any time because of their gender.
posted by nirblegee at 4:23 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I’m not excusing her behavior in the slightest. She screwed up.
posted by KathrynT at 4:27 PM on December 19, 2017
posted by KathrynT at 4:27 PM on December 19, 2017
About the only thing I can think which would actually get results, as opposed to amounting to nothing more than a performance of rectitude, is to quietly help the accusers put lawsuits together, and hope the board caves in before any of the suits actually come to court. And that seems like a very personally dangerous approach, for Green.
For what it’s worth, she is now not just willing but eager to go on the record and under oath about the persistently hostile work environment in support of anyone who files any kind of legal claim against Kampia or the Board.
posted by KathrynT at 4:28 PM on December 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
For what it’s worth, she is now not just willing but eager to go on the record and under oath about the persistently hostile work environment in support of anyone who files any kind of legal claim against Kampia or the Board.
posted by KathrynT at 4:28 PM on December 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
Trying to play the "let's replace sexism with racism" game only works if you're willing to also roll the clock back a few decades as well. And if you do that, it turns out that, no, that question isn't nearly as cut and dry as you're making it out. The sad reality is that sexism is more socially acceptable in the US than racism is.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [26 favorites]
I think describing resigning in protest as a 'performance of rectitude' is a bit much.
Maybe excoriating someone with the courage to stick around a toxic environment and try things which might have actually made it less toxic is a bit much.
posted by Coventry at 4:44 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe excoriating someone with the courage to stick around a toxic environment and try things which might have actually made it less toxic is a bit much.
posted by Coventry at 4:44 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe excoriating someone with the courage to stick around a toxic environment and try things which might have actually made it less toxic is a bit much.
I agree. I'm just not sure that describes this situation. Nor that the employees who resigned were virtue-signalling (to whom?), unless I misunderstood your comment.
posted by inire at 5:16 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I agree. I'm just not sure that describes this situation. Nor that the employees who resigned were virtue-signalling (to whom?), unless I misunderstood your comment.
posted by inire at 5:16 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
But had she quit when the other staff did, I think the Board would have taken this much more seriously. At the time, her standing by him gave him and the Board a huge amount of cover, that it couldn't be THAT bad because the woman who was chief of staff was saying that it was okay and she was going to take care of things.
I don't know. Clearly you have a lot of first (or second) hand knowledge of this situation that most of us don't have. But I remember when the New Organizing Institute staff went to the board about a bad executive director - they were fired, and the organization folded several months later. At the time, a long-time non-profit veteran told me that, when it's staff against the ED, the board will almost always pick the ED. Because they either hired the ED, or s/he picked them to be on the board. Because the ED has relationships with the board that most staff don't. Because firing an ED is a really big move, with a huge risk of bad press and losing major funding.
Most boards are not prepared to take a step like that, which is why EDs are usually not fired, but subtly encouraged to leave if anything, and given a LOT of time to make that transition (sometimes years). It sounds like the board knew what the problem was, and had ample evidence. If they were not willing to take action based on that, it's unlikely one more person quitting would have made a big difference, even a senior staffer. To be honest, most board members see all staff besides the ED as replaceable.
posted by lunasol at 5:23 PM on December 19, 2017 [13 favorites]
I don't know. Clearly you have a lot of first (or second) hand knowledge of this situation that most of us don't have. But I remember when the New Organizing Institute staff went to the board about a bad executive director - they were fired, and the organization folded several months later. At the time, a long-time non-profit veteran told me that, when it's staff against the ED, the board will almost always pick the ED. Because they either hired the ED, or s/he picked them to be on the board. Because the ED has relationships with the board that most staff don't. Because firing an ED is a really big move, with a huge risk of bad press and losing major funding.
Most boards are not prepared to take a step like that, which is why EDs are usually not fired, but subtly encouraged to leave if anything, and given a LOT of time to make that transition (sometimes years). It sounds like the board knew what the problem was, and had ample evidence. If they were not willing to take action based on that, it's unlikely one more person quitting would have made a big difference, even a senior staffer. To be honest, most board members see all staff besides the ED as replaceable.
posted by lunasol at 5:23 PM on December 19, 2017 [13 favorites]
Would it be ok with you if she held orientation sessions for new staff who were minorities, where she let them know that Kampia was racist, that's just the way it is, and they can expect to be called names, harassed, personally targeted, and treated differently from white employees on a regular basis?
Trying to play the "let's replace sexism with racism" game only works if you're willing to also roll the clock back a few decades as well.
But also yeah, you better believe that someone in an American workplace at least once today turned to someone with less seniority and said something like, "Nobody can do anything about him, he just...does that" and they both were probably either people of color or women or both and they exchanged a look and someone sighed and someone knows to watch their back, which they didn't need to be told in general but appreciate having an especially bad character pointed out because both of them have rent to pay and this may be all nice and good for the occasional Hollywood actor or victim of a politician but down here at the restaurant/warehouse/office there's not shit you can do about the white guys up top, and not even newspapers cared about any of this until twenty minutes ago, and they still don't care about unexciting workplaces.
And I would bear no ill will against the more senior person for doing it - it's better than not saying anything. That someone tried at all is kind of extraordinary and risky and most of the time tilting at windmills, not just in 2010 but right this minute.
Power differentials mean things, abuse dynamics mean things. Several women quitting a job is a relief, several plus that one trying to ruin our party is even better. Lots of marginalized people stay to try to fix it, even when they shouldn't stay for their own health or safety or career advancement, or because they're so demoralized by a sick system that they don't even realize they have any value to take elsewhere.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:34 PM on December 19, 2017 [36 favorites]
Trying to play the "let's replace sexism with racism" game only works if you're willing to also roll the clock back a few decades as well.
But also yeah, you better believe that someone in an American workplace at least once today turned to someone with less seniority and said something like, "Nobody can do anything about him, he just...does that" and they both were probably either people of color or women or both and they exchanged a look and someone sighed and someone knows to watch their back, which they didn't need to be told in general but appreciate having an especially bad character pointed out because both of them have rent to pay and this may be all nice and good for the occasional Hollywood actor or victim of a politician but down here at the restaurant/warehouse/office there's not shit you can do about the white guys up top, and not even newspapers cared about any of this until twenty minutes ago, and they still don't care about unexciting workplaces.
And I would bear no ill will against the more senior person for doing it - it's better than not saying anything. That someone tried at all is kind of extraordinary and risky and most of the time tilting at windmills, not just in 2010 but right this minute.
Power differentials mean things, abuse dynamics mean things. Several women quitting a job is a relief, several plus that one trying to ruin our party is even better. Lots of marginalized people stay to try to fix it, even when they shouldn't stay for their own health or safety or career advancement, or because they're so demoralized by a sick system that they don't even realize they have any value to take elsewhere.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:34 PM on December 19, 2017 [36 favorites]
And so we end up with islands of sympathy that overlap just enough for bad behaviour to continue. Powerful men give each other the benefit of the doubt; they empathize with how difficult it is to resist temptation or to know when "yes" means "yes!" and when it means "please don't fire me". People who might call them to account give each other the benefit of the doubt; they empathize with how difficult it is to act when you know that nothing is likely to change except that you'll probably lose your job.
Are you seriously, seriously morally equating "not blowing up your own career in a likely-quixotic attempt to prevent the wrongdoing of a person in a position of power over you" with "not sexually assaulting people under your power?" Do you genuinely find it that deeply challenging to place the locus of blame for male misbehavior on the men who do it? Don't dare to treat my understanding that it is tremendously difficult to capsize your own life in an attempt to stop someone else from doing something wrong as commensurate with male collaboration in assaults on women's dignity and autonomy. Just...don't.
posted by praemunire at 5:49 PM on December 19, 2017 [22 favorites]
Are you seriously, seriously morally equating "not blowing up your own career in a likely-quixotic attempt to prevent the wrongdoing of a person in a position of power over you" with "not sexually assaulting people under your power?" Do you genuinely find it that deeply challenging to place the locus of blame for male misbehavior on the men who do it? Don't dare to treat my understanding that it is tremendously difficult to capsize your own life in an attempt to stop someone else from doing something wrong as commensurate with male collaboration in assaults on women's dignity and autonomy. Just...don't.
posted by praemunire at 5:49 PM on December 19, 2017 [22 favorites]
I'm having trouble articulating this but here goes.
Green made a big mistake and she failed. She wrote her post to say that. I think her reputation will take a hit, but probably not a huge one. I think that's probably about the right balance. I actually do believe her that this mistake has forced her to sit with a lot of shame and guilt. I think some shame and guilt over this one is okay.
I worked in an industry that regularly offers interns up to the egos of senior management. It's gross. I like to think that I would have walked over a rape, or even over something less direct...but I also know why I stayed for some time. I was good to my interns. I offered them up a network for their careers. I hope they are living their dreams. I hope they stab anyone who puts a hand where it does not belong. This is what hope does, sometimes, as well as darker stuff.
At the same time, there's the IT guy in the article who stayed for what 7 more years? There's the board that actually had the power continued to employ Kampia for 7 more years. There's Kampia himself. I know we're talking about Green but I hope we are doing the math right. She enabled for one year. Those 7 other people enabled for 7 years each, right?
But maybe we're not as emotional about them. Because they don't have the temerity to call themselves experts at management, maybe. Well, Green does. She calls herself an expert! Who does she think she is?
Well.
Lots of people call themselves experts who have failed. A great chunk of them are men, because we tolerate men's failures as a narrative of victory, because they are by default, the victors. When women fail, we take it as a narrative of unworthiness, because they are by default the vanquished.
For those of you who are really angry at Alison Green, I would consider why you're angry. Is it that she didn't do enough? Or is it that she's been successful afterwards?
posted by warriorqueen at 6:05 PM on December 19, 2017 [53 favorites]
Green made a big mistake and she failed. She wrote her post to say that. I think her reputation will take a hit, but probably not a huge one. I think that's probably about the right balance. I actually do believe her that this mistake has forced her to sit with a lot of shame and guilt. I think some shame and guilt over this one is okay.
I worked in an industry that regularly offers interns up to the egos of senior management. It's gross. I like to think that I would have walked over a rape, or even over something less direct...but I also know why I stayed for some time. I was good to my interns. I offered them up a network for their careers. I hope they are living their dreams. I hope they stab anyone who puts a hand where it does not belong. This is what hope does, sometimes, as well as darker stuff.
At the same time, there's the IT guy in the article who stayed for what 7 more years? There's the board that actually had the power continued to employ Kampia for 7 more years. There's Kampia himself. I know we're talking about Green but I hope we are doing the math right. She enabled for one year. Those 7 other people enabled for 7 years each, right?
But maybe we're not as emotional about them. Because they don't have the temerity to call themselves experts at management, maybe. Well, Green does. She calls herself an expert! Who does she think she is?
Well.
Lots of people call themselves experts who have failed. A great chunk of them are men, because we tolerate men's failures as a narrative of victory, because they are by default, the victors. When women fail, we take it as a narrative of unworthiness, because they are by default the vanquished.
For those of you who are really angry at Alison Green, I would consider why you're angry. Is it that she didn't do enough? Or is it that she's been successful afterwards?
posted by warriorqueen at 6:05 PM on December 19, 2017 [53 favorites]
Green made a big mistake and she failed
Failed? How exactly did she fail at her job?
Failed at being a character from a superhero movie maybe but how is her bosses bad behavior and the boards inaction her "failure"
posted by fshgrl at 6:30 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Failed? How exactly did she fail at her job?
Failed at being a character from a superhero movie maybe but how is her bosses bad behavior and the boards inaction her "failure"
posted by fshgrl at 6:30 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
She certainly failed in that she did not make the women victimized by this guy feel supported or defended, which was what she says she was trying to do.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:32 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 6:32 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I am not calling her a failure. I think she failed to see Kampia's predatory behaviour clearly and act accordingly, and even when she did she thought it was fixable. I think it's fine to acknowledge that...failure is a part of striving.
I do agree with you about the superhero bit - in that, if we don't let people be human and fail, that's just a story. I don't expect her to never have failed. Hope that makes sense.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:18 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I do agree with you about the superhero bit - in that, if we don't let people be human and fail, that's just a story. I don't expect her to never have failed. Hope that makes sense.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:18 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think she is specifically saying she failed to do that, and I'm going to conservatively guess that 85% of managers in a company larger than 20 people have as well - if not specifically on the sexual harassment front (but probably there, whether they knew it or not), on sexism and racism and ableism and ageism and other predations on marginalized people - and they really need to start talking about it out loud real loud.
Managers fuck up all the time, even good ones, even trained ones. I'm hoping that coming forward and talking about it keeps happening a lot from many sectors of management (I sure to fuck wish it'd start with men but OH WELL), because it's just going to remain a niche issue unless they do. Every manager should be talking about how they fuck up, specifically about how they fuck up on this specific issue, because that's the only way to turn the tide against these skeezy assholes.
There's almost nothing out there with regards to guidelines or strategies or methodologies for dealing with this stuff (particularly from the c-suite rather than the trenches), and contrary to popular belief managers do not grow on a manager farm where they are picked fully-formed at the peak of managerial blossom. Some people fail into it, and a lot of people succeed into it but without formal training just because "manager" is a fancier title when you've run out of "seniorest" levels. (I'm a "manager" and so are most of my colleagues because we work in an old-school industry that hasn't accommodated the technology business unit's alternate nomenclature, but we are chicken scratch compared to Partners.)
There is no benefit in writing people off for trashing the landing on this stuff years ago, or even for trashing the landing today if it was from lack of experience/guidance (or FEAR, which is a thing that I know women managers have to deal with) when there's so little guidance in the first place. If they've reached a place of insight and learned experience, please let them bring it to the table and use it to help fix some shit.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:19 PM on December 19, 2017 [16 favorites]
Managers fuck up all the time, even good ones, even trained ones. I'm hoping that coming forward and talking about it keeps happening a lot from many sectors of management (I sure to fuck wish it'd start with men but OH WELL), because it's just going to remain a niche issue unless they do. Every manager should be talking about how they fuck up, specifically about how they fuck up on this specific issue, because that's the only way to turn the tide against these skeezy assholes.
There's almost nothing out there with regards to guidelines or strategies or methodologies for dealing with this stuff (particularly from the c-suite rather than the trenches), and contrary to popular belief managers do not grow on a manager farm where they are picked fully-formed at the peak of managerial blossom. Some people fail into it, and a lot of people succeed into it but without formal training just because "manager" is a fancier title when you've run out of "seniorest" levels. (I'm a "manager" and so are most of my colleagues because we work in an old-school industry that hasn't accommodated the technology business unit's alternate nomenclature, but we are chicken scratch compared to Partners.)
There is no benefit in writing people off for trashing the landing on this stuff years ago, or even for trashing the landing today if it was from lack of experience/guidance (or FEAR, which is a thing that I know women managers have to deal with) when there's so little guidance in the first place. If they've reached a place of insight and learned experience, please let them bring it to the table and use it to help fix some shit.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:19 PM on December 19, 2017 [16 favorites]
praemunire: Are you seriously, seriously morally equating "not blowing up your own career in a likely-quixotic attempt to prevent the wrongdoing of a person in a position of power over you" with "not sexually assaulting people under your power?"
Not trying to do that at all. Apologies that my juxtaposition made it come across that way. They are not morally equivalent, and the responsibility for evil lies with the perpetrator. No disagreement with you on that. There are definitely different moral questions at play when we're talking about enablers.
posted by clawsoon at 8:11 PM on December 19, 2017
Not trying to do that at all. Apologies that my juxtaposition made it come across that way. They are not morally equivalent, and the responsibility for evil lies with the perpetrator. No disagreement with you on that. There are definitely different moral questions at play when we're talking about enablers.
posted by clawsoon at 8:11 PM on December 19, 2017
Nor that the employees who resigned were virtue-signalling (to whom?), unless I misunderstood your comment.
Sort of. I meant that there was no obvious external benefit to resigning. The only benefits would have been escaping a toxic environment, and avoiding this backlash, which are personal. There can be other reasons to escape a toxic environment which aren't related to virtue signaling.
posted by Coventry at 8:18 PM on December 19, 2017
Sort of. I meant that there was no obvious external benefit to resigning. The only benefits would have been escaping a toxic environment, and avoiding this backlash, which are personal. There can be other reasons to escape a toxic environment which aren't related to virtue signaling.
posted by Coventry at 8:18 PM on December 19, 2017
If you didn't follow the link, here's the original Washington City Paper coverage of this. High Times .
The external benefits, to those of us who weren't working at MPP, but are in the movement, was that there were people in the movement who WEREN'T going to protect and make excuses for the sexual harassment that was happening. I am still grateful to those who quit then. And yes, still holding a grievance for those who didn't quit then, especially Greene. I appreciate that people want to identify with her and make excuses for her. And I still think that it would have made a profound difference at the time if she had behaved differently then.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:50 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
The external benefits, to those of us who weren't working at MPP, but are in the movement, was that there were people in the movement who WEREN'T going to protect and make excuses for the sexual harassment that was happening. I am still grateful to those who quit then. And yes, still holding a grievance for those who didn't quit then, especially Greene. I appreciate that people want to identify with her and make excuses for her. And I still think that it would have made a profound difference at the time if she had behaved differently then.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:50 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wonder how many HR managers have read that and have related; who feel like they are not empowered to protect their employees, who feel like they are covering for their bosses and management and its abuse.
I do recommend reading the HR thread. HR is not there for the protection of the employees. Full stop.
Furthermore, PR can affect change in an organization greater than HR can.
So what's an HR professional to do when they they realize they are actually helping protect workplace abuse, abusive managers, and sexual misconduct? Well, I would imagine if they would go to the press publicly about the situation, the best case scenario is they no longer have a job and will never have a job in HR again - the worst case would be on the losing end of a lawsuit. What if every HR professional was to quit their job rather than help protect an abusive organization? Well, everyone with ethics would be out of their HR department, and then they'd be struggling to find a job with a corporation that had a corporate culture of protecting employees (I'm sure such organizations exist, and am also certain they are a tiny minority).
So, struggle and try to affect change from within. That's what she did - until she couldn't handle it anymore and realized she was merely protecting the abuser and not affecting positive change in the way she hoped she would.
posted by el io at 9:51 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I do recommend reading the HR thread. HR is not there for the protection of the employees. Full stop.
Furthermore, PR can affect change in an organization greater than HR can.
So what's an HR professional to do when they they realize they are actually helping protect workplace abuse, abusive managers, and sexual misconduct? Well, I would imagine if they would go to the press publicly about the situation, the best case scenario is they no longer have a job and will never have a job in HR again - the worst case would be on the losing end of a lawsuit. What if every HR professional was to quit their job rather than help protect an abusive organization? Well, everyone with ethics would be out of their HR department, and then they'd be struggling to find a job with a corporation that had a corporate culture of protecting employees (I'm sure such organizations exist, and am also certain they are a tiny minority).
So, struggle and try to affect change from within. That's what she did - until she couldn't handle it anymore and realized she was merely protecting the abuser and not affecting positive change in the way she hoped she would.
posted by el io at 9:51 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
No doubt, I feel for any woman in Green's situation. It's not a fair position to be forced to occupy, and while there are some obvious wrong answers in that kind of situation, there's also a lot of gray area. I understand why some former colleagues can't forgive her, though. I'm thinking about the token woman in a former workplace who had the ear of management. She was more or less the only woman there who had the ear of management and could advocate for anyone and be heard, yet she not only chose not to, but also bad-mouthed several of us. Whether she fully understood/understands how complicit she was, or perhaps remains deluded as to her role in events, ultimately the outcome of that situation destroyed my once-good friendship with her. It's a shame. I just can't trust her anymore after I saw how she reveled in the praise and adulation of our bosses and did nothing to elevate the women around her, even when we sweated and bled for the organization and individually achieved great things in our own right. That office was toxic from top to bottom, but she worked for her place in that hell. Green at least shows a lot more self-awareness and awareness of her contributions to the situation, and she's since moved on and found ways to make amends. I think that's commendable.
In my situation, I once had a lot of respect for this woman. But as I found myself in a situation where I was enduring verbal and mental abuse from those in power, after having the fate of an entire production process repeatedly and unfairly placed upon my shoulders, I woke up to the ways she allowed herself to be used by the men in power in that office. She was a sounding board who would, when asked her opinion, help them justify to themselves why their mistreatment of most of the women in our department was OK; or why their little cabal wasn't actually a boys' club because hey, token woman; or why the abuse I was enduring daily from a woman manager was a mere personality clash, not worth addressing except by imposing further strictures upon me, rather than the manager; or why following the established standards of conduct and workmanship was a "nice to have" thing for some staffers but ended up being wielded against others. I ultimately lost all respect for her after going through the endgame of that and realizing how, when I had previously been in a state of grace myself, my words had been used in exactly the same way to justify the ouster of at least two former colleagues.
And I still feel terrible about my own complicity in allowing my frustrations about some colleagues to be used against them, even though the environment was toxic, and even though I didn't like them at the time. For my part, though, I didn't know how my words had been used until the same thing happened to me. I can see how some women might never figure it out, despite working side-by-side with the abusers and colleagues who are targets of that abuse, because they've never had it happen to them. It's just like women who don't get why feminism might be important to them or is even relevant to them, because they've always been playing a different game—something has insulated them from knowledge of how important these principles are and should be to every woman, not just women who choose to label themselves a certain way. Whatever it is, perhaps on some level they believe or just don't question whether it's OK to be treated differently as a result. Maybe they're privileged in some way that lets them believe they're different for a while, or they know they're not different but they don't care as long as it's working for them. I certainly thought I was different early on, before I grew up and was no longer the robotically productive young ingénue. I'm not blaming anyone for thinking they're different—and I'm not blaming them for the disparity in treatment. Ultimately, the fault for those disparities lies with patriarchy and the men who enforce and benefit from it.
I miss the banter I once had with that colleague. I remember fondly her mentorship—she was an important person to me in my early career. She was so encouraging. But perhaps of necessity, in a precarious position in a precarious field, she put herself first, then went beyond that to a place of privilege where she gossiped with management about those of us who were deemed somehow unworthy or unfit, thereby giving them ammunition to mistreat, dismiss, and otherwise deal unfairly with several of us. While I understand it, I can't forgive it. My friends and colleagues and I wasted too many hours of our lives trying to figure out, in endless discussions, why we couldn't ever seem to get it right, why we couldn't advance, why we couldn't please our managers, why we worked endless hours for no acknowledgement or praise, only to figure out that our supposed friend was one of our worst enemies. I'm not saying that's what happened with Green, but if they feel like it did, I understand why they can't move on from that.
And yet, again: Fuck the men who place us in positions like this in the first place, who play us off of each other, knowingly or unknowingly, who grin at us and purport to care about us and the work we do while undermining us every day. No one should have to waste precious mental space thinking about this kind of thing to the extent that I and so many other women have. Fuck the fact that I have all of this in my head and recall myself and my friends in these scenarios. Fuck the fact that I worry, when I write this about it, that even that may be misunderstood, that anyone who knows me who comes across it may wonder why I can't let it go, why I let thinking about these things in the past ruin my day. Fuck the fact that it's in the past for me, but not for so exceedingly many other women right now. Goddamn it.
posted by limeonaire at 10:44 PM on December 19, 2017 [14 favorites]
In my situation, I once had a lot of respect for this woman. But as I found myself in a situation where I was enduring verbal and mental abuse from those in power, after having the fate of an entire production process repeatedly and unfairly placed upon my shoulders, I woke up to the ways she allowed herself to be used by the men in power in that office. She was a sounding board who would, when asked her opinion, help them justify to themselves why their mistreatment of most of the women in our department was OK; or why their little cabal wasn't actually a boys' club because hey, token woman; or why the abuse I was enduring daily from a woman manager was a mere personality clash, not worth addressing except by imposing further strictures upon me, rather than the manager; or why following the established standards of conduct and workmanship was a "nice to have" thing for some staffers but ended up being wielded against others. I ultimately lost all respect for her after going through the endgame of that and realizing how, when I had previously been in a state of grace myself, my words had been used in exactly the same way to justify the ouster of at least two former colleagues.
And I still feel terrible about my own complicity in allowing my frustrations about some colleagues to be used against them, even though the environment was toxic, and even though I didn't like them at the time. For my part, though, I didn't know how my words had been used until the same thing happened to me. I can see how some women might never figure it out, despite working side-by-side with the abusers and colleagues who are targets of that abuse, because they've never had it happen to them. It's just like women who don't get why feminism might be important to them or is even relevant to them, because they've always been playing a different game—something has insulated them from knowledge of how important these principles are and should be to every woman, not just women who choose to label themselves a certain way. Whatever it is, perhaps on some level they believe or just don't question whether it's OK to be treated differently as a result. Maybe they're privileged in some way that lets them believe they're different for a while, or they know they're not different but they don't care as long as it's working for them. I certainly thought I was different early on, before I grew up and was no longer the robotically productive young ingénue. I'm not blaming anyone for thinking they're different—and I'm not blaming them for the disparity in treatment. Ultimately, the fault for those disparities lies with patriarchy and the men who enforce and benefit from it.
I miss the banter I once had with that colleague. I remember fondly her mentorship—she was an important person to me in my early career. She was so encouraging. But perhaps of necessity, in a precarious position in a precarious field, she put herself first, then went beyond that to a place of privilege where she gossiped with management about those of us who were deemed somehow unworthy or unfit, thereby giving them ammunition to mistreat, dismiss, and otherwise deal unfairly with several of us. While I understand it, I can't forgive it. My friends and colleagues and I wasted too many hours of our lives trying to figure out, in endless discussions, why we couldn't ever seem to get it right, why we couldn't advance, why we couldn't please our managers, why we worked endless hours for no acknowledgement or praise, only to figure out that our supposed friend was one of our worst enemies. I'm not saying that's what happened with Green, but if they feel like it did, I understand why they can't move on from that.
And yet, again: Fuck the men who place us in positions like this in the first place, who play us off of each other, knowingly or unknowingly, who grin at us and purport to care about us and the work we do while undermining us every day. No one should have to waste precious mental space thinking about this kind of thing to the extent that I and so many other women have. Fuck the fact that I have all of this in my head and recall myself and my friends in these scenarios. Fuck the fact that I worry, when I write this about it, that even that may be misunderstood, that anyone who knows me who comes across it may wonder why I can't let it go, why I let thinking about these things in the past ruin my day. Fuck the fact that it's in the past for me, but not for so exceedingly many other women right now. Goddamn it.
posted by limeonaire at 10:44 PM on December 19, 2017 [14 favorites]
(I am currently dealing with a situation that has a lot of well-meaning women following the path from "Oh, he just needs to understand that that behavior is over the line" to "Surely if I just say this firmly enough he will change his behavior" to "I will put our friendship on the line; I know he values me/our relationship enough to change his ways" to "...oh." to "Fuck him and all his works". It is heartbreaking to watch.)
I am in this situation right now. (Well, maybe not restless_nomad's exact situation, unless it turns out we have a friend in common.) I wrote an AskMefi question about it, about how I got wind of my (now ex) best friend's creepy behavior towards women and tried to do what I thought were the right things given our shared communities and how it didn't work anyway and what now, and even in that damn Ask there were people questioning my motives, saying that I only did what I did to gain some "social justice cred" and I just had a grudge.
There seems to be nothing you can do that isn't going to get you questioned by someone somewhere. Try to remain friends with the accused so you can hold them accountable? You're complicit. Cut them off completely? You're just isolating them and they're going to move on to another community without anyone holding them accountable. Let people know? You're a gossip. Don't let people know? You're making people unsafe. Put your friendship on the line? Won't make a damn difference. Don't risk your friendship? You're being selfish.
It's been a month and a half since this first went down, a month since I tried to break up with my friend after he took my actions super poorly and wouldn't take responsibility for anything, two weeks since my friend responded after a silence saying he wanted to resolve what he thought was a "colossal misunderstanding" so that we can "get along again" but all he's been doing since is abdicating responsibility and gaslighting me and telling me my boundaries are "impossible" and so I told him off and I haven't heard from him since. And in this entire time I wrestle every damn day with - did I do the right thing? Did I protect anyone? Did I ruin my opportunity to keep him accountable? Should I have been more diplomatic or submissive so that I'd stay on his good side and he'd be more willing to listen to me and thus would be more willing to change his ways? Should I have cut him off from the getgo? Should I Should I Should I?!
(For what it's worth, the one direct victim that spoke to me just wants me to take care of myself and is very sympathetic of me.)
And seeing how he's treated me, one of his closest friends, I feel a little more sympathetic to people who may not necessarily feel like they have the power to bring this up with him. (I know I'm not the only one, but I don't know how many or who else besides one other person.) I went to a transformative justice meeting where there was a discussion about complicity - what if the perpetrator's community isn't willing to speak to them about their behaviour? And I'm thinking, here I am in a situation where one of my best friends is acting abusively and manipulatively towards me for trying to speak up for people he's harmed. Who else feels too vulnerable to speak up? Who else has been manipulated to not bring this up? Who else feels they may be in harm's way, may get it worse than I did? Silence doesn't necessarily mean agreeance - it could also mean fear, it could also mean they don't see what they could do that could be different, it could also mean that they only have so many spoons and this isn't something they want to spend their spoons on. If they're not outright excusing the perp's behavior or denying it, I don't necessarily blame them for not really doing anything.
posted by divabat at 3:56 AM on December 20, 2017 [21 favorites]
I am in this situation right now. (Well, maybe not restless_nomad's exact situation, unless it turns out we have a friend in common.) I wrote an AskMefi question about it, about how I got wind of my (now ex) best friend's creepy behavior towards women and tried to do what I thought were the right things given our shared communities and how it didn't work anyway and what now, and even in that damn Ask there were people questioning my motives, saying that I only did what I did to gain some "social justice cred" and I just had a grudge.
There seems to be nothing you can do that isn't going to get you questioned by someone somewhere. Try to remain friends with the accused so you can hold them accountable? You're complicit. Cut them off completely? You're just isolating them and they're going to move on to another community without anyone holding them accountable. Let people know? You're a gossip. Don't let people know? You're making people unsafe. Put your friendship on the line? Won't make a damn difference. Don't risk your friendship? You're being selfish.
It's been a month and a half since this first went down, a month since I tried to break up with my friend after he took my actions super poorly and wouldn't take responsibility for anything, two weeks since my friend responded after a silence saying he wanted to resolve what he thought was a "colossal misunderstanding" so that we can "get along again" but all he's been doing since is abdicating responsibility and gaslighting me and telling me my boundaries are "impossible" and so I told him off and I haven't heard from him since. And in this entire time I wrestle every damn day with - did I do the right thing? Did I protect anyone? Did I ruin my opportunity to keep him accountable? Should I have been more diplomatic or submissive so that I'd stay on his good side and he'd be more willing to listen to me and thus would be more willing to change his ways? Should I have cut him off from the getgo? Should I Should I Should I?!
(For what it's worth, the one direct victim that spoke to me just wants me to take care of myself and is very sympathetic of me.)
And seeing how he's treated me, one of his closest friends, I feel a little more sympathetic to people who may not necessarily feel like they have the power to bring this up with him. (I know I'm not the only one, but I don't know how many or who else besides one other person.) I went to a transformative justice meeting where there was a discussion about complicity - what if the perpetrator's community isn't willing to speak to them about their behaviour? And I'm thinking, here I am in a situation where one of my best friends is acting abusively and manipulatively towards me for trying to speak up for people he's harmed. Who else feels too vulnerable to speak up? Who else has been manipulated to not bring this up? Who else feels they may be in harm's way, may get it worse than I did? Silence doesn't necessarily mean agreeance - it could also mean fear, it could also mean they don't see what they could do that could be different, it could also mean that they only have so many spoons and this isn't something they want to spend their spoons on. If they're not outright excusing the perp's behavior or denying it, I don't necessarily blame them for not really doing anything.
posted by divabat at 3:56 AM on December 20, 2017 [21 favorites]
And I still think that it would have made a profound difference at the time if she had behaved differently then.
Well, Alison herself seems to agree with you.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:36 AM on December 20, 2017
Well, Alison herself seems to agree with you.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:36 AM on December 20, 2017
And I still think that it would have made a profound difference at the time if she had behaved differently then.
Again, what evidence makes you think that? If a female board member resigning did nothing to move the board, why would Green's resignation be any different? The board clearly didn't think sexual harassment was a problem, and they weren't listening.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:47 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Again, what evidence makes you think that? If a female board member resigning did nothing to move the board, why would Green's resignation be any different? The board clearly didn't think sexual harassment was a problem, and they weren't listening.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:47 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
For those of you who are really angry at Alison Green, I would consider why you're angry. Is it that she didn't do enough? Or is it that she's been successful afterwards?
I suspect the latter. From the comments on her post:
I am curious how you avoided being this scumbags’ target.
Ask a Manager December 19, 2017 at 7:13 pm
Oh, he harassed me plenty too. Lots of it to go around.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:04 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
I suspect the latter. From the comments on her post:
I am curious how you avoided being this scumbags’ target.
Ask a Manager December 19, 2017 at 7:13 pm
Oh, he harassed me plenty too. Lots of it to go around.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:04 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Long story short, I had a nightmare about the situation I described above last night. It's been 3 years since I was in that situation and it still comes back when I think about it too much, remembering the feeling of being unable to meet all the demands on me at home and at work simultaneously, while my male manager was trying to gin up a way to force me out, along with more than one of my woman colleagues. People kind of chuckle or speak offhandedly about the notion of PTSD from toxic workplaces, but man, it's so real. Anyway, the point is, no doubt Green is still dealing with her own trauma from being in that situation, and I'm sure the other women who dealt with it still are too. Being in the spotlight as someone who speaks about these issues is like penance and probably in some respect an ongoing reminder of it for Green, especially now that it's a topic everyone wants to discuss. I feel for everyone involved except the abuser himself (and the board members who didn't or don't care). I hope those dudes have trouble sleeping at night, but somehow I doubt it.
posted by limeonaire at 8:42 AM on December 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 8:42 AM on December 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
If a female board member resigning did nothing to move the board, why would Green's resignation be any different?
I don't get why this thread has become a discussion about Green resigning. By her own account, Green declined to recommend Kampia be removed, rather than supporting department heads who wanted him sidelined:
I'm not trashing Green here or saying she had an easy time. I don't even know how well I'd measure up if I were in this situation, with a friend accused, today. I hope OK? But 10-20 years ago I'd likely have done even less than Green actually did (we're about the same age FWIW). And she's not the worst non-harasser in that account either.
So I don't want to see her go under the bus but I don't think anyone needs to second guess her "wrong call" judgment or say she tried everything short of martyrdom. Hindsight is easy, sure, but that just means we should be able to get things right with hindsight, if we can't even do that the future is hopeless.
posted by mark k at 9:25 AM on December 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't get why this thread has become a discussion about Green resigning. By her own account, Green declined to recommend Kampia be removed, rather than supporting department heads who wanted him sidelined:
several of us, including me, backed off our recommendation that he be removed because we didn’t want to cause the organization to fold.The original Washington CIty Paper account has details that makes this seem a bit coy, in that it says she took 19 minutes to be convinced to back off and within a few days was actively supporting him.
I'm not trashing Green here or saying she had an easy time. I don't even know how well I'd measure up if I were in this situation, with a friend accused, today. I hope OK? But 10-20 years ago I'd likely have done even less than Green actually did (we're about the same age FWIW). And she's not the worst non-harasser in that account either.
So I don't want to see her go under the bus but I don't think anyone needs to second guess her "wrong call" judgment or say she tried everything short of martyrdom. Hindsight is easy, sure, but that just means we should be able to get things right with hindsight, if we can't even do that the future is hopeless.
posted by mark k at 9:25 AM on December 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
nirblegee, what your comparison is missing here is that (a) racism and sexism aren't the same, and (b) alison green and her "apologists" in this thread are members of the group that's targeted for this type of abuse and their sympathy (or at least, mine) is explicitly coming from that perspective. We're also all saying that she fucked up.
The level of pervasive sexism in our society fucks with your head. It confuses you about what's acceptable and and it removes all of your options until it feels like compromise is the right choice. It also gives you false hope, because if it's just being a "bad boy" or "old fashioned"--instead of a reflection of a rotten, misogynistic core--then maybe you can convince them to change.
So, while I think I would have made a better choice than Green, I don't think that she had to be a terrible person who didn't care about her employees in order to make the wrong choice.
(I won't go down the road of saying sexism is more socially acceptable than racism; I've seen enough black women disagree with that to think that statement is an accurate depiction of the reality. But I do think that the socially acceptable expression of them is different, and it doesn't make a good comparison.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:51 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
The level of pervasive sexism in our society fucks with your head. It confuses you about what's acceptable and and it removes all of your options until it feels like compromise is the right choice. It also gives you false hope, because if it's just being a "bad boy" or "old fashioned"--instead of a reflection of a rotten, misogynistic core--then maybe you can convince them to change.
So, while I think I would have made a better choice than Green, I don't think that she had to be a terrible person who didn't care about her employees in order to make the wrong choice.
(I won't go down the road of saying sexism is more socially acceptable than racism; I've seen enough black women disagree with that to think that statement is an accurate depiction of the reality. But I do think that the socially acceptable expression of them is different, and it doesn't make a good comparison.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:51 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
I can accept that she wanted to believe that a few months vacation and some soul-searching would bring real changes in him, but she knew in her heart that it doesn't work that way. I can accept that the board said, we'll set up a process so we don't have big problems in the future, and she really wanted to believe that meant, "we'll prevent sexual assault in the future," so she took them at their word. I can believe she thought, the past is over and throwing him out won't fix any of that so we should just be better in the future.
Her only mistake, as far as I can tell, was being gullible enough to believe the men around her weren't lying to her.
She could've pushed for civil or maybe criminal charges - riiiight. Should've asked the police to investigate a nonprofit org arguing that a federal felony should be legalized. I can see no way that this could involve dozens of people peripherally involved being thrown in prison, as their lives and histories were scrutinized.
This is one of the problems with pushing for legalization of anything: if some of your activities are currently illegal, reporting any crimes becomes problematic.
She made the wrong call - she chose to believe that the men on the board, including Kampia, were being honest. That they were committed to ending the harms caused by abuse in the organization, even if they weren't convinced of exactly which activities were harmful. That they believed the safety of the women connected to the org was as important as the men's fun.
There's a whole lot of "she should've known better!" in the ire directed at her. And maybe she somewhat did, and that's why she feels guilty: because she abdicated her responsibility to do something the moment she realized they were lying.
There's a difference between, "I hurt people" vs "I failed to take action against someone else who was hurting people" vs "I failed my detect-bullshit roll" vs "I failed to continue taking action when I realized the first actions weren't going to be effective because I was being lied to."
(I do understand part of it, which has come up in other threads: We feel angry at men, and betrayed by other women. And often, that's reasonable. I just don't want the betrayal feelings to become more important than the actions of the men who were the actual abusers and liars.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:38 PM on December 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
Her only mistake, as far as I can tell, was being gullible enough to believe the men around her weren't lying to her.
She could've pushed for civil or maybe criminal charges - riiiight. Should've asked the police to investigate a nonprofit org arguing that a federal felony should be legalized. I can see no way that this could involve dozens of people peripherally involved being thrown in prison, as their lives and histories were scrutinized.
This is one of the problems with pushing for legalization of anything: if some of your activities are currently illegal, reporting any crimes becomes problematic.
She made the wrong call - she chose to believe that the men on the board, including Kampia, were being honest. That they were committed to ending the harms caused by abuse in the organization, even if they weren't convinced of exactly which activities were harmful. That they believed the safety of the women connected to the org was as important as the men's fun.
There's a whole lot of "she should've known better!" in the ire directed at her. And maybe she somewhat did, and that's why she feels guilty: because she abdicated her responsibility to do something the moment she realized they were lying.
There's a difference between, "I hurt people" vs "I failed to take action against someone else who was hurting people" vs "I failed my detect-bullshit roll" vs "I failed to continue taking action when I realized the first actions weren't going to be effective because I was being lied to."
(I do understand part of it, which has come up in other threads: We feel angry at men, and betrayed by other women. And often, that's reasonable. I just don't want the betrayal feelings to become more important than the actions of the men who were the actual abusers and liars.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:38 PM on December 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
We feel angry at men, and betrayed by other women. And often, that's reasonable. I just don't want the betrayal feelings to become more important than the actions of the men who were the actual abusers and liars.
Men, we expect them to behave well but when they don't it's not so out of the norm, culturally. Women, we expect everything. And betrayal from your peers, your supposed female allies, can indeed feel like the worse cut. I think right now a lot of people are waking up to the fact that we are living in a theater of equality. I bet Green felt like she had a lot of clout. I bet she felt like she was a leader. I bet she was even told from her higher-ups and other people in the org that she was invaluable and just what they needed. But when push came to shove, she had to take in the fact that she doesn't own the engine of power and so ultimately had no way to hold anyone's feet to the fire. It seems she was late to this realization. I just can't fault her for that even though in a perfect world where you get to flip back and forth along the choose-your-own-adventure timeline, she likely would have done different things. I feel so angry on behalf of those who got not justice but instead stonewalling, denial, betrayal and maybe worse. I happen to think that group includes Green.
posted by amanda at 9:43 PM on December 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
Men, we expect them to behave well but when they don't it's not so out of the norm, culturally. Women, we expect everything. And betrayal from your peers, your supposed female allies, can indeed feel like the worse cut. I think right now a lot of people are waking up to the fact that we are living in a theater of equality. I bet Green felt like she had a lot of clout. I bet she felt like she was a leader. I bet she was even told from her higher-ups and other people in the org that she was invaluable and just what they needed. But when push came to shove, she had to take in the fact that she doesn't own the engine of power and so ultimately had no way to hold anyone's feet to the fire. It seems she was late to this realization. I just can't fault her for that even though in a perfect world where you get to flip back and forth along the choose-your-own-adventure timeline, she likely would have done different things. I feel so angry on behalf of those who got not justice but instead stonewalling, denial, betrayal and maybe worse. I happen to think that group includes Green.
posted by amanda at 9:43 PM on December 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
Given her comment that his sexual harassment extended to her as well, I think it is worth pointing out that the experience of being sexually harassed is profoundly disorienting, and it warps your decision making processes.
In a lot of settings, the impulse to minimize the damage and insist— even to yourself!—that it just “isn’t a big deal” is pervasive. In minimizing the damage being done to yourself, it is almost inevitable that you will also minimize the damage being done to the other people in similar situations, maybe even the people you are trying to protect.
She made the wrong call, and she owns up to that. She offered cover for a predator. But she was also his prey, and I don’t think it is fair to retroactively pretend that she was making her decisions from a place of calm and measured judgment. Part of the point of sexual harassment is to keep women off-balance in the workplace. Spoiler alert: it works, and there are lots of ripple effects. Her story is full of them.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:58 PM on December 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
In a lot of settings, the impulse to minimize the damage and insist— even to yourself!—that it just “isn’t a big deal” is pervasive. In minimizing the damage being done to yourself, it is almost inevitable that you will also minimize the damage being done to the other people in similar situations, maybe even the people you are trying to protect.
She made the wrong call, and she owns up to that. She offered cover for a predator. But she was also his prey, and I don’t think it is fair to retroactively pretend that she was making her decisions from a place of calm and measured judgment. Part of the point of sexual harassment is to keep women off-balance in the workplace. Spoiler alert: it works, and there are lots of ripple effects. Her story is full of them.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:58 PM on December 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
What I find most troubling is not that she made terrible decisions at a time when she was in an absolutely crappy situation. What I find most troubling is that she made these terrible decisions WHILE GIVING OTHERS ADVICE ABOUT NAVIGATING TRICKY WORKPLACE SITUATIONS. She did both for three years, and she quit only as she was becoming successful enough with the column that she could earn her living from it. Then for another seven years she answered questions about sexual harassment many dozens of times and never alluded to a time in her past when she had made a bad series of decisions w/re sexual harassment. And even when Harvey Weinstein broke she didn't mention it. Not until she learned the thing was going to be coming up in the news again did she decide she had to act. That's what I find troubling. It's not what she did back then. It's what she's been doing for the past ten years.
posted by metaval at 7:35 AM on December 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by metaval at 7:35 AM on December 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Women, we expect everything. And betrayal from your peers, your supposed female allies, can indeed feel like the worse cut.
Oh man, so true. One of my first jobs was at a place where 95% of the staff was female including the manager who constantly screamed at everyone, especially me. One of the union reps also worked there. Everyone knew that the manager's behaviour was unacceptable and no one did anything about it. It's been 20 years, but here I am crying at the kitchen table because all those older women didn't do a thing to help me. I didn't know that I probably could have complained to the union or HR. I thought I just had to accept it. No one wanted to be the manager's next victim :/
posted by Calzephyr at 9:21 AM on December 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh man, so true. One of my first jobs was at a place where 95% of the staff was female including the manager who constantly screamed at everyone, especially me. One of the union reps also worked there. Everyone knew that the manager's behaviour was unacceptable and no one did anything about it. It's been 20 years, but here I am crying at the kitchen table because all those older women didn't do a thing to help me. I didn't know that I probably could have complained to the union or HR. I thought I just had to accept it. No one wanted to be the manager's next victim :/
posted by Calzephyr at 9:21 AM on December 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Rob Kampia is leaving MPP, with a truly bizarre "press release."
For those of you who are really angry at Alison Green, I would consider why you're angry. Is it that she didn't do enough? Or is it that she's been successful afterwards?
I don't wish her ill. She's welcome to her success and it's really weird that anyone would think that would motivate anger. I'm angry at all the people who covered for Kampia, who know even worse stories and have done nothing. I'm angry at the men in my own organization who thought nothing of having dinner with Kampia and didn't understand why I didn't want to join them. I'm grateful to the MPP staffers who quit rather than continue to work there. I'm angry at Greene because of her very explicit role as the woman who supported and defended him and also angry at her hypocrisy at positioning herself as an expert on this issue when she failed the rest of the staff there as well as the rest of the women in the movement. It's completely because she didn't do enough. And I'm definitely more angry at the men who did nothing than at Greene.
posted by gingerbeer at 4:35 PM on December 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
For those of you who are really angry at Alison Green, I would consider why you're angry. Is it that she didn't do enough? Or is it that she's been successful afterwards?
I don't wish her ill. She's welcome to her success and it's really weird that anyone would think that would motivate anger. I'm angry at all the people who covered for Kampia, who know even worse stories and have done nothing. I'm angry at the men in my own organization who thought nothing of having dinner with Kampia and didn't understand why I didn't want to join them. I'm grateful to the MPP staffers who quit rather than continue to work there. I'm angry at Greene because of her very explicit role as the woman who supported and defended him and also angry at her hypocrisy at positioning herself as an expert on this issue when she failed the rest of the staff there as well as the rest of the women in the movement. It's completely because she didn't do enough. And I'm definitely more angry at the men who did nothing than at Greene.
posted by gingerbeer at 4:35 PM on December 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
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posted by all about eevee at 12:02 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]