The Museum of the Bible Is a Safe Space for Christian Nationalists
January 7, 2018 9:26 AM Subscribe
The intensely politicized religion that appears to be taking up residence at the Museum of the Bible isn’t there by accident. Given the theologico-political goals of its founders and patrons, it isn’t hard to see that the location of this museum was an act of symbolic and practical genius. If you’re going to build a Christian nation, this is where you start.
Cindy Jacobs, a leading figure in the fast-growing world of charismatic Christianity, and a featured speaker at the Revolution 2017 event in December, described the museum as “God’s base camp.” There, in the auditorium of the museum, Ms. Jacobs offered this prediction: “The army of the heavens marches into Washington, D.C., and marches out of Washington, D.C.” Soon enough, “they go into North Korea.”
According to Ms. Jacobs, Mr. Trump “will be seated and mantled with the power of God.”
Another supporter of the Museum of the Bible is Pastor Ralph Drollinger. He's the founder and president of Capitol Ministries and one of the most politically influential pastors in America.
Drollinger believes that social welfare programs “have no basis in Scripture,” that Christians in government have an obligation to hire only Christians and that women should not be allowed to teach grown men. He lays out his thinking in a 2013 book, “Rebuilding America: The Biblical Blueprint.”
Mr. Drollinger was an early, passionate supporter of Donald Trump’s presidential candidacy. The “institution of the state” is “an avenger of wrath,” he explains, and its “God-given responsibility” is “to moralize a fallen world through the use of force.” Apparently, President Trump excels in these biblical criteria for leadership.
Mr. Drollinger is dedicated to communicating those views in weekly Bible study groups. The participants in his groups, however, aren’t just anybody. They include Mike Pompeo, the director of the C.I.A.; Attorney General Jeff Sessions; Vice President Mike Pence; Betsy DeVos, the secretary of education; and other senior officials in the Trump administration. Mr. Drollinger seeks to institute similar if less-star-studded Bible study groups in all 50 state capitals.
Cindy Jacobs, a leading figure in the fast-growing world of charismatic Christianity, and a featured speaker at the Revolution 2017 event in December, described the museum as “God’s base camp.” There, in the auditorium of the museum, Ms. Jacobs offered this prediction: “The army of the heavens marches into Washington, D.C., and marches out of Washington, D.C.” Soon enough, “they go into North Korea.”
According to Ms. Jacobs, Mr. Trump “will be seated and mantled with the power of God.”
Another supporter of the Museum of the Bible is Pastor Ralph Drollinger. He's the founder and president of Capitol Ministries and one of the most politically influential pastors in America.
Drollinger believes that social welfare programs “have no basis in Scripture,” that Christians in government have an obligation to hire only Christians and that women should not be allowed to teach grown men. He lays out his thinking in a 2013 book, “Rebuilding America: The Biblical Blueprint.”
Mr. Drollinger was an early, passionate supporter of Donald Trump’s presidential candidacy. The “institution of the state” is “an avenger of wrath,” he explains, and its “God-given responsibility” is “to moralize a fallen world through the use of force.” Apparently, President Trump excels in these biblical criteria for leadership.
Mr. Drollinger is dedicated to communicating those views in weekly Bible study groups. The participants in his groups, however, aren’t just anybody. They include Mike Pompeo, the director of the C.I.A.; Attorney General Jeff Sessions; Vice President Mike Pence; Betsy DeVos, the secretary of education; and other senior officials in the Trump administration. Mr. Drollinger seeks to institute similar if less-star-studded Bible study groups in all 50 state capitals.
Hell, if there were such a place, would not be hot enough
Hell is exothermic, if you follow the science...
posted by DreamerFi at 9:42 AM on January 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
Hell is exothermic, if you follow the science...
posted by DreamerFi at 9:42 AM on January 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
A friend of mine works there, which I find fascinating as he’s pretty firmly atheist. Apparently there are cool items in the collection which he enjoys.
posted by PussKillian at 9:47 AM on January 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 9:47 AM on January 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
According to Ms. Jacobs, Mr. Trump “will be seated and mantled with the power of God.”
There's a thought that's going to fester.
posted by dfm500 at 9:50 AM on January 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
There's a thought that's going to fester.
posted by dfm500 at 9:50 AM on January 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
The Dominionists have been at this for decades, it's just that they stopped being very overt about it when talking to outsiders for a long time. But now it seems they're coming further out of the closet about their ambitions again.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:51 AM on January 7, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 9:51 AM on January 7, 2018 [16 favorites]
I wonder how these cretins are reconciling their plan with the long-term decline of Christianity in the US? Even now I imagine the majority of Christians in this country aren't white.
posted by stinkfoot at 9:54 AM on January 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by stinkfoot at 9:54 AM on January 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
Shit, if they can reconcile their plan with Cheeto Benito's staggeringly obvious pandering to them for political support, they can rationalize anything.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:04 AM on January 7, 2018 [23 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:04 AM on January 7, 2018 [23 favorites]
Drollinger believes that social welfare programs “have no basis in Scripture,”
So he advocates forced breeding, then decries social welfare for those who fall for it. With evil like that, who needs Satan?
posted by Brian B. at 10:06 AM on January 7, 2018 [11 favorites]
So he advocates forced breeding, then decries social welfare for those who fall for it. With evil like that, who needs Satan?
posted by Brian B. at 10:06 AM on January 7, 2018 [11 favorites]
I live in a town with ten junior highs and high schools, 35 elementary schools, and 155 private schools mostly religious.
I made myself read the bible recently, and I was a Baptist as a kid. The bible is the stuff of nightmares. It talks about an extremely abusive entity who drowned the world, and set up a harem for King David, even murdering an infant he made with a Hittite woman. Somehow using Jesus of Nazareth as an eraser for the planetocidal acts of his father is not soothing me. I read the book of Enoch, because of some outrageous internet clams, there are a bunch of apocryphal books that didn't make it into the canon. Well the Book of Enoch plainly describes some folks dragging Enoch into the presence of God in a vast room all made of crystals, and then God appears with a mouth full of swords and eyes like a fire. Well that sounds like they dragged Enoch into a cave lined with crystals, just in time for the boring machine to break through a wall, a demonstration designed to terrify. The folks that took Enoch there had oxygen masks to wear, and this is why Enoch kept falling on his face in the presence of God. I think the universe is huge magic, I don't believe in the local stuff. Supposedly there are mountains of Gold, Silver, Copper, lead, and a lake of Mercury somewhere. Drowning the world is a possibility if a mining company fractures the Ringwoodite layer deep in the Earth. The book of Enoch or one of the books talk about the water stored in the rocks of the earth. Recently scientists decided to find how the water was stored in the rocks, and they figured it out.
I think these people are dangerous, that is an understatement. You may think all this above is gibberish, but it is acceptable for me to read and write about my conclusions, I am not building a museum, to get people to take control of the planet, violently, in order to seat a god who hasn't shown up for his gold stash, yet.
posted by Oyéah at 10:15 AM on January 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
I made myself read the bible recently, and I was a Baptist as a kid. The bible is the stuff of nightmares. It talks about an extremely abusive entity who drowned the world, and set up a harem for King David, even murdering an infant he made with a Hittite woman. Somehow using Jesus of Nazareth as an eraser for the planetocidal acts of his father is not soothing me. I read the book of Enoch, because of some outrageous internet clams, there are a bunch of apocryphal books that didn't make it into the canon. Well the Book of Enoch plainly describes some folks dragging Enoch into the presence of God in a vast room all made of crystals, and then God appears with a mouth full of swords and eyes like a fire. Well that sounds like they dragged Enoch into a cave lined with crystals, just in time for the boring machine to break through a wall, a demonstration designed to terrify. The folks that took Enoch there had oxygen masks to wear, and this is why Enoch kept falling on his face in the presence of God. I think the universe is huge magic, I don't believe in the local stuff. Supposedly there are mountains of Gold, Silver, Copper, lead, and a lake of Mercury somewhere. Drowning the world is a possibility if a mining company fractures the Ringwoodite layer deep in the Earth. The book of Enoch or one of the books talk about the water stored in the rocks of the earth. Recently scientists decided to find how the water was stored in the rocks, and they figured it out.
I think these people are dangerous, that is an understatement. You may think all this above is gibberish, but it is acceptable for me to read and write about my conclusions, I am not building a museum, to get people to take control of the planet, violently, in order to seat a god who hasn't shown up for his gold stash, yet.
posted by Oyéah at 10:15 AM on January 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
Stinkfoot, I think they're keenly aware, and think they can't win through peaceful evangelism anymore. They think force is their last, best chance to save Christianity as they believe it in America.
posted by ikea_femme at 10:48 AM on January 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by ikea_femme at 10:48 AM on January 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
I thought we had separation of church and state in this country...why is this man not in tax jail for his violations?
posted by sexyrobot at 11:07 AM on January 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 11:07 AM on January 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
To see Cindy Jacobs and the folks Drollinger represents mentioned in the same breath kinda gives me a headache. The latter probably see her as a heretic. I have mutual friends with her so I am pretty sure any quotes you see in secular media about her would be out of context and sound frightening because of that.
BTW I would a billion times rather have Trump in office than Pence. Before you get mad at me spend some time thinking about that.
(Full disclosure, many of you know I am a Christian. Who believes Jesus meant what He said when He said His kingdom was not of this world. A lot of us got in bed with the Republicans in the 80s and committed political adultery. )
I would probably enjoy the museum fwiw tho.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 11:08 AM on January 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
BTW I would a billion times rather have Trump in office than Pence. Before you get mad at me spend some time thinking about that.
(Full disclosure, many of you know I am a Christian. Who believes Jesus meant what He said when He said His kingdom was not of this world. A lot of us got in bed with the Republicans in the 80s and committed political adultery. )
I would probably enjoy the museum fwiw tho.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 11:08 AM on January 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah - the only thing that terrifies me about getting Trump out is how to deal with Pence. Pence has enough blood on his hands already and I'd rather he not be in a position to do more.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:17 AM on January 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 11:17 AM on January 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
[The bible] is the founding text of the American republic
No.
They smuggled antiquities looted from Iraq, including 6000 clay tablets. Their fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls are likely fake.
I first heard about this on the BBC world service. The segment described how they were buying 'antiquities' off ebay. It's far more likely a museum of forgeries than anything else. Faking relics and documents has been big business for millennia, they aren't hard to come by. I wonder how many pieces of the true cross they have. There are probably enough out there to build another ark.
The place cost $500 million. The money is coming from Amway and Hobby Lobby. Use that information as you see fit.
posted by adept256 at 11:41 AM on January 7, 2018 [34 favorites]
No.
They smuggled antiquities looted from Iraq, including 6000 clay tablets. Their fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls are likely fake.
I first heard about this on the BBC world service. The segment described how they were buying 'antiquities' off ebay. It's far more likely a museum of forgeries than anything else. Faking relics and documents has been big business for millennia, they aren't hard to come by. I wonder how many pieces of the true cross they have. There are probably enough out there to build another ark.
The place cost $500 million. The money is coming from Amway and Hobby Lobby. Use that information as you see fit.
posted by adept256 at 11:41 AM on January 7, 2018 [34 favorites]
Adept256 got in before I could. The Museum of thr Bible is deeply problematic. Its owner and supporter is chiefly responsible for its acquisitions, and he is simply not interested in anything that doesn't advance his agenda. Consequently, he's got a lot of stuff with no context or with murky provenance, or which is almost certainly forged. Middle Eastern archeology is under threat from looters and forgers, and he is directly responsible for a large part of it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:11 PM on January 7, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:11 PM on January 7, 2018 [24 favorites]
To see Cindy Jacobs and the folks Drollinger represents mentioned in the same breath kinda gives me a headache. The latter probably see her as a heretic. I have mutual friends with her so I am pretty sure any quotes you see in secular media about her would be out of context and sound frightening because of that.
Hm. Here she is in her own words:
Cindy Jacobs casts out "homosexual spirits
Cindy Jacobs Says The US Is 'Polluting' Other Nations With Gay Pride Flags
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:17 PM on January 7, 2018 [14 favorites]
Hm. Here she is in her own words:
Cindy Jacobs casts out "homosexual spirits
Cindy Jacobs Says The US Is 'Polluting' Other Nations With Gay Pride Flags
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:17 PM on January 7, 2018 [14 favorites]
I visited the MotB recently and was struck by the fact that many of the exhibits on the fourth floor "History of the Bible"--which one would figure would be the heart of the collection--are replicas. Many of the descriptive labels next to each exhibit, at least in the sections devoted to the earliest history of the Bible, would say something like "original in the British Museum." I don't think I've ever been in something that called itself a "museum" that had so many copies of things. Is this a function of a chunk of the collection being busted by Customs?
As one moves into NT times, the ratio of original to copy improves. But then the problem, if you will, is that the exhibit cases are low-lit and feature tiny writing on small pieces of papyrus. Many, many small pieces of papyrus bearing tiny writing. As a possible consequence, the devout were thin on the ground on 4 or tended to move quickly through the floor without really stopping to look at individual exhibits. There are touch-sensitive tabletop displays one can use to examine pieces of parchment, etc., and there are near-lifesize flatscreen displays that show an actor portraying an important figure in the development of the Bible and talking about their role. Even these weren't really being used by the visitors I saw.
The third floor--the only floor that had lines to enter the exhibits--is where the action is: "Stories of the Bible." Here you enter to see scenes from the "Hebrew Bible" and "The World of Jesus of Nazareth." I cannot report on the content because I wasn't about to wait in line for this, and I'd already seen what I wanted on the fourth floor. I assume floor 3 is more like a Biblical theme park, given the crowds queued to enter.
Overall, the museum is not in-your-face about Jesus being the Light and the Way. There are inspirational quotes in the lobby about how awesome the Bible is, but that's to be expected. But at least in the sections I visited ("History of the Bible," "Impact of the Bible"--the latter underwhelming in its depiction/presentation of, say, the Bible in Shakespeare or film), an effort seemed to be made to present this in an objective manner. In short, the alarming aspects of those who support the museum's mission are not apparent on the surface. Even the visitors seemed like the sort of people one sees schlepping from the Air and Space Museum to the Museum of Natural History--no T-shirt messaging or MAGA hats.
That said, I have no doubt that for those of a certain socio-religio-political bent, this is Mecca. Which is indirectly referenced by a sign in the lobby that basically says, yeah, the Koran mentions some of the figures in the Bible, and, no, we don't recognize it.
posted by the sobsister at 12:29 PM on January 7, 2018 [9 favorites]
As one moves into NT times, the ratio of original to copy improves. But then the problem, if you will, is that the exhibit cases are low-lit and feature tiny writing on small pieces of papyrus. Many, many small pieces of papyrus bearing tiny writing. As a possible consequence, the devout were thin on the ground on 4 or tended to move quickly through the floor without really stopping to look at individual exhibits. There are touch-sensitive tabletop displays one can use to examine pieces of parchment, etc., and there are near-lifesize flatscreen displays that show an actor portraying an important figure in the development of the Bible and talking about their role. Even these weren't really being used by the visitors I saw.
The third floor--the only floor that had lines to enter the exhibits--is where the action is: "Stories of the Bible." Here you enter to see scenes from the "Hebrew Bible" and "The World of Jesus of Nazareth." I cannot report on the content because I wasn't about to wait in line for this, and I'd already seen what I wanted on the fourth floor. I assume floor 3 is more like a Biblical theme park, given the crowds queued to enter.
Overall, the museum is not in-your-face about Jesus being the Light and the Way. There are inspirational quotes in the lobby about how awesome the Bible is, but that's to be expected. But at least in the sections I visited ("History of the Bible," "Impact of the Bible"--the latter underwhelming in its depiction/presentation of, say, the Bible in Shakespeare or film), an effort seemed to be made to present this in an objective manner. In short, the alarming aspects of those who support the museum's mission are not apparent on the surface. Even the visitors seemed like the sort of people one sees schlepping from the Air and Space Museum to the Museum of Natural History--no T-shirt messaging or MAGA hats.
That said, I have no doubt that for those of a certain socio-religio-political bent, this is Mecca. Which is indirectly referenced by a sign in the lobby that basically says, yeah, the Koran mentions some of the figures in the Bible, and, no, we don't recognize it.
posted by the sobsister at 12:29 PM on January 7, 2018 [9 favorites]
Overall, the museum is not in-your-face about Jesus being the Light and the Way.
That's because they don't exist to win new converts, they're there to establish legitimacy for their own deluded crowd.
posted by DreamerFi at 12:37 PM on January 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
That's because they don't exist to win new converts, they're there to establish legitimacy for their own deluded crowd.
posted by DreamerFi at 12:37 PM on January 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
A friend of mine works there, which I find fascinating as he’s pretty firmly atheist. Apparently there are cool items in the collection which he enjoys.
Yeah. Illegally obtained spoils of war sure are fun.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:18 PM on January 7, 2018 [29 favorites]
Yeah. Illegally obtained spoils of war sure are fun.
It is not the case, as some have alleged, that Hobby Lobby bought artifacts from ISIS. Though it is true that ISIS profits by looting artifacts and passing them on to dealers and collectors in the West, the shipments for which Hobby Lobby was scrutinized predate the rise of ISIS.Oh, phew! So Hobby Lobby perhaps merely funded the rise of ISIS? What a relief. In no way is that a million times worse.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:18 PM on January 7, 2018 [29 favorites]
-Overall, the museum is not in-your-face about Jesus being the Light and the Way.
--That's because they don't exist to win new converts, they're there to establish legitimacy for their --own deluded crowd.
I think an effort has been made to make this unthreatening to non-believers and to less-fervent believers. I mean, I don't know what the non-Christian attendance figures are like for the place. But my feeling is that those involved decided, either on their own or advised by outsiders, to play this down the middle. Speaking from my own experience, if I'd thought this was going to be Jesus Rides a Dinosaurland, I would not have put money in the hands of Hobby Lobby. As it stood, it hurt my hand to touch my wallet. It's a pay-what-you-want deal with a "suggested" fee of $15. I confess to considering taking a leaf from the Homer Simpson book of museum-going:
Homer: Eh, what do you mean by `suggested donation'?
Clerk: Pay any amount you wish, sir.
Homer: And uh, what if I wish to pay ... zero?
Clerk: That is up to you.
Homer: Ooh, so it's up to me, is it?
Clerk: Yes.
Homer: I see. And you think that people are going to pay
you $4.50 even though they don't have to?
Just out of the goodness of their... [laughs]
Well, anything you say! Good luck, lady, you're gonna need it!”
("Lisa's Substitute" (s02e19))
posted by the sobsister at 2:18 PM on January 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
--That's because they don't exist to win new converts, they're there to establish legitimacy for their --own deluded crowd.
I think an effort has been made to make this unthreatening to non-believers and to less-fervent believers. I mean, I don't know what the non-Christian attendance figures are like for the place. But my feeling is that those involved decided, either on their own or advised by outsiders, to play this down the middle. Speaking from my own experience, if I'd thought this was going to be Jesus Rides a Dinosaurland, I would not have put money in the hands of Hobby Lobby. As it stood, it hurt my hand to touch my wallet. It's a pay-what-you-want deal with a "suggested" fee of $15. I confess to considering taking a leaf from the Homer Simpson book of museum-going:
Homer: Eh, what do you mean by `suggested donation'?
Clerk: Pay any amount you wish, sir.
Homer: And uh, what if I wish to pay ... zero?
Clerk: That is up to you.
Homer: Ooh, so it's up to me, is it?
Clerk: Yes.
Homer: I see. And you think that people are going to pay
you $4.50 even though they don't have to?
Just out of the goodness of their... [laughs]
Well, anything you say! Good luck, lady, you're gonna need it!”
("Lisa's Substitute" (s02e19))
posted by the sobsister at 2:18 PM on January 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
From what I've read, the Bible Museum's curators were up front with the problematic nature of their "Dead Sea Scrolls" and perhaps some of the other displays. The museum is fundamentally a showcase for a rich man's collection of relics, and I expect that as long as he believes that the relics are a glorious testimony he's going to employ real curators to look after them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:34 PM on January 7, 2018
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:34 PM on January 7, 2018
Pastor Ralph Drollinger
Wiki says the guy is 63. I would prefer he be 93, but 63 is acceptable. Soon the last of the Reagan generation will be gone and each year the number of Republican voters declines a bit more.
posted by Beholder at 4:49 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Wiki says the guy is 63. I would prefer he be 93, but 63 is acceptable. Soon the last of the Reagan generation will be gone and each year the number of Republican voters declines a bit more.
posted by Beholder at 4:49 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Beholder: that’s a very dangerous line of reasoning – there are too many young kids getting indoctrinated at home (or by YouTube’s white supremacists) for anyone to rest easy. That’s why museums like this exist: to give support to all of the things they’re hearing, and help maintain the idea that, say, the natural history museum down the road is no more accurate.
posted by adamsc at 6:26 PM on January 7, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by adamsc at 6:26 PM on January 7, 2018 [18 favorites]
I can actually feel my blood pressure rising thinking about how those Hobby Lobby fuckers have the world's largest private Torah scroll collection. And while I'm already angry, let me add that I never want to hear the words "Judeo-Christian values" ever again, because believe you me, there is NOTHING Jewish about the values these people are touting.
posted by Ruki at 6:27 PM on January 7, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 6:27 PM on January 7, 2018 [12 favorites]
Ruki, he's also apparently got what has been billed as the worlds oldest siddur (Jewish book of prayer). He's put it on display, but what it really needs is proper academic study. and, ideally, public access to scans. This sort of prestige cherry-picking is the opposite of good scholarship.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:25 PM on January 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:25 PM on January 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
">Drollinger believes that social welfare programs “have no basis in Scripture,”
Give. Your. Money. To. The. Poor."
Usually their deal is, if the government MAKES you give your money to the poor, it doesn't count, and in some obscure fashion pisses off God; it's only okay to give money to the poor through private charity. Sometimes the smarter ones will go on about how the Romans were oppressing Jesus and Jesus didn't want the Romans in charge of helping the poor and blah blah blah and the government is the Romans and the churches are Jesus, but they back away rapidly if you start asking them about Israelite government-sponsored legal arrangements to care for the poor in the Old Testament and early Church poverty outreach and so on.
It isn't a wildly out of mainstream view -- although other groups that hold it aren't usually quite so ahistorical about it, and recognize that resistance to government poverty aid arises partly from European history of state churches and the use of poverty aid as a theological cudgel against dissenters -- but other religious groups (mostly minor) that resist government provision of poverty aid are usually known for their significant charity work with the poor. US evangelicals are, uh, not.
(A lot of people who believe the government shouldn't be involved in charitable aid also think that deducting your charitable donations is immoral for basically the same reasons; it means you're giving money to please the government rather than God, and it doesn't "count" as a moral act if you take the deduction. So it's always kind-of interesting to ask the "no government poverty support!" people if they took a charitable deduction. If they didn't, they may be legit hard-core separationists! But I'm willing to bet Drollinger takes every deduction he has coming and brags about it, because his thing isn't the separation, it's not paying taxes and not giving money to the poor.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:41 PM on January 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
Give. Your. Money. To. The. Poor."
Usually their deal is, if the government MAKES you give your money to the poor, it doesn't count, and in some obscure fashion pisses off God; it's only okay to give money to the poor through private charity. Sometimes the smarter ones will go on about how the Romans were oppressing Jesus and Jesus didn't want the Romans in charge of helping the poor and blah blah blah and the government is the Romans and the churches are Jesus, but they back away rapidly if you start asking them about Israelite government-sponsored legal arrangements to care for the poor in the Old Testament and early Church poverty outreach and so on.
It isn't a wildly out of mainstream view -- although other groups that hold it aren't usually quite so ahistorical about it, and recognize that resistance to government poverty aid arises partly from European history of state churches and the use of poverty aid as a theological cudgel against dissenters -- but other religious groups (mostly minor) that resist government provision of poverty aid are usually known for their significant charity work with the poor. US evangelicals are, uh, not.
(A lot of people who believe the government shouldn't be involved in charitable aid also think that deducting your charitable donations is immoral for basically the same reasons; it means you're giving money to please the government rather than God, and it doesn't "count" as a moral act if you take the deduction. So it's always kind-of interesting to ask the "no government poverty support!" people if they took a charitable deduction. If they didn't, they may be legit hard-core separationists! But I'm willing to bet Drollinger takes every deduction he has coming and brags about it, because his thing isn't the separation, it's not paying taxes and not giving money to the poor.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:41 PM on January 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
A good example of the harm done by morality
posted by thelonius at 8:49 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 8:49 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Usually their deal is, if the government MAKES you give your money to the poor, it doesn't count, and in some obscure fashion pisses off God; it's only okay to give money to the poor through private charity.
A lot of people don't give a shit about the needy and just want the Morality Points Jesus awards for doing what he says. And a lot of people love the power over others that personally seeing to charitable giving grants them.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:27 AM on January 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
A lot of people don't give a shit about the needy and just want the Morality Points Jesus awards for doing what he says. And a lot of people love the power over others that personally seeing to charitable giving grants them.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:27 AM on January 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
And a lot of people love the power over others that personally seeing to charitable giving grants them.
And that's the real reason: a level of control. Some of it may be somewhat understandable (how much they have to give). But they see money they receive as theirs forever (unless they get something in return). So they want to put string on it:
It also lets them get extra gold stars in their community: see! I gave to this fund! Aren't I great! Whereas government aid is done by everyone.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:58 AM on January 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
And that's the real reason: a level of control. Some of it may be somewhat understandable (how much they have to give). But they see money they receive as theirs forever (unless they get something in return). So they want to put string on it:
- The recipients can only buy certain things--no junk food or beer. Even if they are supplementing their aid with some meager income, recipients shouldn't spend it on unworthy things.
- Money can't be spent on something that disagrees with their religion--heaven forbid their special money go to birth control.
- In order to get their money, the recipients should attend their church.
It also lets them get extra gold stars in their community: see! I gave to this fund! Aren't I great! Whereas government aid is done by everyone.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:58 AM on January 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
I wonder how these cretins are reconciling their plan with the long-term decline of Christianity in the US? Even now I imagine the majority of Christians in this country aren't white.
To your second point, I feel confident in presuming they don't consider Catholics to be Christian, even though Catholicism is the single biggest denomination in the country. That negates the vast majority of Hispanic Christians.
posted by The Notorious SRD at 10:51 AM on January 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
To your second point, I feel confident in presuming they don't consider Catholics to be Christian, even though Catholicism is the single biggest denomination in the country. That negates the vast majority of Hispanic Christians.
posted by The Notorious SRD at 10:51 AM on January 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Jesus Rides a Dinosaurland would be way more ethical and fun than this pile of dominionism, bigotry and nastiness seeking credibility through stolen artifacts and proximity to legitimate museums (not that the Smithsonians aren't problematic, but they're models of public inquiry and interest compared to this crap).
posted by aspersioncast at 1:31 PM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by aspersioncast at 1:31 PM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
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Give. Your. Money. To. The. Poor.
Hell, if there were such a place, would not be hot enough.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:35 AM on January 7, 2018 [64 favorites]