Skincare
January 31, 2018 9:14 AM   Subscribe

"Perfect skin has become the thinking woman’s quest. It’s normal today for people in certain circles to brag about spending most of their paycheck on serums. The latest skincare trends have a reassuring scientific cast: peptides, acids, solutions, and other things with clinical suffixes that are typically sold in small quantities for large amounts of money. But all of this is a scam. It has to be." The Outline: Skincare is a Con

and a rebuttal from Racked: "As with any popular thing, a backlash is inevitable. The one against skincare argues how gullible those who indulge in it must be." Skincare is Good and Also Works
posted by everybody had matching towels (307 comments total) 61 users marked this as a favorite
 
In the morning, if my face is a little puffy, I'll put on an ice pack while doing my stomach crunches. (I can do a thousand now.) After I remove the ice pack I use a deep pore cleanser lotion. In the shower I use a water activated gel cleanser, then a honey almond body scrub, and on the face an exfoliating gel scrub. Then I apply an herb-mint facial masque which I leave on for 10 minutes while I prepare the rest of my routine. I always use an after shave lotion with little or no alcohol, because alcohol dries your face out and makes you look older. Then moisturizer, then an anti-aging eye balm followed by a final moisturizing protective lotion.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 9:23 AM on January 31, 2018 [52 favorites]


I just use lubriderm. The fragrance free no spf kind. If the product is in a boring package, you know it's good. I also use a bit of toner if my skin is acting up.

My BB cream has spf, and I wear that as foundation.
posted by ikea_femme at 9:28 AM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


"Skincare is Good And Also Works," Argues Media Platform Whose Business Model Relies On Advertising Skincare Products And Also Gets A Cut Of Sales From Said Skincare Products To Its Readers
posted by halation at 9:28 AM on January 31, 2018 [61 favorites]


I have to agree 100% that K-beauty is mostly marketing; certainly it's no skin care miracle. I think it's fine if people do a 10-step program because they enjoy it and view it as radical self-care or what have you, but there's nothing special about it other than that, in my own experience. I think a lot of the K-beauty craze is exoticism and what isn't exoticism is good old capitalism. It also includes some of the same stuff that underlies conspiracy theories -- the idea that if you listen to us, you'll be privy to secret knowledge that only chosen people have access to.
posted by holborne at 9:30 AM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


Yeah, there is a middle ground. I think any Thinking Woman (or man or non-binary person interested in skincare) knows that lots of the beauty industry is bullshit, in the same way that most know not to use an exfoliant and a scourer and an acid on their face at once. Rich people will buy rich people shit, my nana has amazing skin from a lifetime of Nivea probably because she has amazing skin, and the rest of us trial-and-error with our own skin. And like most feminine territory, there is a subtext that if you didn't succeed, you're not trying hard enough.

I have gotten really good improvements in my (dry, serious eczema-prone, 35-year-old) skin by double-cleansing to actually get my makeup off every day, using an SPF every day, and using Marks and Spencer Formula Absolute Ultimate Sleep Cream at night. That's the closest I've found to a wonder product for my skin, and €30 is expensive in my books, but it's worth it for calm skin that looks great with much less makeup. I also dabble with a bunch of The Ordinary and do a few mud masks a week, but the Sleep Cream is definitely the key for me.
posted by carbide at 9:33 AM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


I just do nothing and people are like “you have great skin!” and I know I’m lucky as hell to be able to literally do nothing to my face. Because of this I have a shitload of respect for people who have to maintain skin care routines in order to attain what I get for just existing.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:33 AM on January 31, 2018 [12 favorites]


I think a lot of status symbols these days are not just about showing off income or taste, but also time to burn.

I've heard friends brag about how many steps they take. Why should you need six steps just to wash your face? Why is that a good thing?
posted by ikea_femme at 9:33 AM on January 31, 2018 [15 favorites]


Less is WAY more, people. I've worked in cosmetics for places like Neiman Marcus, Saks, etc. and the amount of complete bullshit lines throw at women to distance themselves from competitors should be the next Christopher Guest movie.

I've had to sit in meetings where some flack told us with zero irony that crushed diamonds, or truffles, or the specially-harvested only once in April molecules from a vanilla plant could grant eternal youth for the skin. You fall for any of this and you should be sold your own oxygen at 100 bucks an ounce.

What you need is this:
a. WATER and tons of it per day. Your skin will glow like the sun if you do nothing else but drink half your body weight in ounces of water per day. It's all the hydration your body wants, period.

b. Restraint on scrubs/peels/exfoliators. Once or twice a week TOPS. Using an exfoliator on your face every day is like regularly shampooing with clarifying shampoo. No need at all for it.

c. Moisturizer/Sunscreen. You want healthy skin until you die? Don't fry your skin at the beach until you mirror the lizards sunning their scales on the rocks. Moisturize your body/skin with a light moisturizer that contains Vit E, and a natural blend of carrier oils like jojoba or avocado if you have esp. dry skin.

d. DON'T SMOKE. This is obvious.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 9:34 AM on January 31, 2018 [59 favorites]


I still find it weird there's so much "IT'S SCIENCE!" copy and then they sell you donkey milk and snail mucus. Not the chemicals in those things that are supposedly going to help.

It's a weird collision of naturalism and better living through chemistry. It's like somebody explaining how your headache works on a cellular level, and then telling you to suck on some willow root instead of taking an aspirin.
posted by ikea_femme at 9:37 AM on January 31, 2018 [8 favorites]


Skincare is funny because LOTS of people have great skin and don't do a got dang thing to achieve it, or just smear on a little bit of whatever-ingredient hand lotion in the winter and do fine.

This is akin to saying gosh, not sure why you need an antidepressant, when I feel down in the dumps sometimes I go on a brisk walk, always puts me right! Or. Not sure why you need fancy supportive shoes, cavemen ran barefoot and it works great for me! So pleased for you that you got a body that works. SO PLEASED.

Some people's skin is STUPID AND DUMB and doesn't work right. Those people have benefitted greatly from capital-s Skincare.
posted by phunniemee at 9:38 AM on January 31, 2018 [95 favorites]


I wouldn't say entirely "all." It looks like, e.g, Eskata may work for age spots. Retinol may help encourage collagen production. But, yeah, 90% of anything beyond moisturizing: placebo. On the other hand, feeling attractive seems to enhance attractiveness for many people, so...
posted by praemunire at 9:38 AM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


I've done the six step skin care regime with some free samples before. And I totally see the appeal. Lot of little bottles of good smelling stuff. It's a very very relaxing bedtime or morning ritual. I regularly use three items each night on my skin. Two that I know are good for me because the dermatologist told me so. The third I don't know if it does a thing, but I like the way it smells and feels going on my skin.
posted by ilovewinter at 9:40 AM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


There are a LOT of really amazing Korean beauty products out there (why yes I do use snail slime on my face), but the whole regime thing is just...excessive to me. I don't have that kind of money or patience.

There's got to be a huge genetic component to good skin, because my mom is nearly 70 and doesn't ever use sunscreen and she looks incredible. In fact, the only moisturizer she uses is Vaseline.

(Sadly, I did not inherit my mom's good skin genes. I look pretty youthful, but I got my dad's big pores and acne-prone skin. And his alcoholism. And sleep apnea. And pretty much everything else. Uff da.)
posted by elsietheeel at 9:40 AM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]


The skin is an organ! I work on a well-balanced diet.

I don't tend to notice these things, if you're wearing makeup I probably don't even know that, but the person with the most amazing face skin I ever saw - even though I noticed! - frequently washed their face with water.
posted by aniola at 9:41 AM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


I think the skin is made up of collagen, so foods rich in the vitamins that your body needs to make collagen would apply here.
posted by aniola at 9:42 AM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


After spending some time at my mom-in-law's house (where there was only a shower, no bathtub), it felt almost miraculous to take a bath complete with salts, shave and moisturize every damn thing once I got home again.

So while many of the pseudo-scientific claims are scammy, especially on higher-priced products, the feeling of having smooth, non-ashy, non-itchy skin (especially in the middle of prairie winter), isn't a scam. That is self-care and it is real. The ritual may be as much part of the self-care as the actual products.

If someone has the disposable income to buy high-end products and they smell nicer or otherwise make someone feel good, that's cool, too. I am happy enough with drug-store stuff, but I'm not going to judge those people who like something else. I'm blessed with relatively acne-free, non-sensitive skin, so I have more cheaper options than others.
posted by Kurichina at 9:44 AM on January 31, 2018 [8 favorites]


I hate the title of this article. Women are expected to look perfect, and that's bullshit, whether we're talking about makeup or skincare or clothes or shoes or facelifts or anything. That doesn't mean it's a scam.

I happily ignored skincare until I went off birth control last year, and my face turned into an acne monster. Blemishes aren't just "unsightly," they fucking itch and hurt, and I can't stop picking at them until they get infected. I have rosacea and I don't wear makeup, ever, so I know my skin won't look airbrushed. A gentle AHA/BHA every other day and regular moisturizer have made a noticeable improvement.

From a world-historical perspective, we have exploded ideals of skin color, body weight, and even body hair in record time. If only we could do the same for our faces.

Progress doesn't work like this. It is not a one-way march from body oppression to liberation.
posted by muddgirl at 9:47 AM on January 31, 2018 [21 favorites]


Sorry to jump back in, but I forgot a very essential part of skin heatlh that most stores are loathe to bring up during a consultation:

!. Great skin is environmental, sure, but comes from the inside out. Not the outside in. Any creams/lotions/potions will only affect the topmost layer of your skin, which if it's already not up to snuff, will show symptoms from causes no cosmetic will cure, only obscure or temporarity relieve.

Get sleep. Don't drink too much caffeine or alcohol (both of which are natural diuretics and will leach your skin of its needed moisture.)

Managing stress is THE best way to love your skin. Meditate or exercise or both. Let sweat take care of your impurities at the gym, and then shower up and smell pretty afterwards.

If you do nothing but do without alcohol for a solid month, you'll lose close to 10 lbs from beer weight alone, and your skin will adore you for it.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 9:50 AM on January 31, 2018 [12 favorites]


What I use is not super expensive or fancy but still took me a ton of experimenting to work out exactly what was right for me. Some acne hurts. Some of it triggers body-focused repetitive behaviors. I'm not super worried what mine looks like--I am Not A Pretty Girl--but I am much more physically comfortable now that I've found what I've got right now. I don't think there's anything wrong with this kind of thing for cosmetic purposes, but if I'd had the resources to do at 15 what I'm doing now, I'd have a lot fewer scars.

So, there's the one side. The other side is that as someone who has a problem with skin-picking, I'm well aware that there are a lot of people, especially women, who should not be allowed to stand within four feet of their mirrors and encouraging people to spend a lot of time thinking about the exact size and state of their pores is not great for mental health. And the "if you only did X you wouldn't have this problem" thing makes me grind my teeth, whether it's from peers or marketers.
posted by Sequence at 9:51 AM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]


> Yeah, there is a middle ground.

If there's a middle ground to be taken on any given subject, you're never going to rack up those clicks taking it.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:52 AM on January 31, 2018 [24 favorites]


Unless you die young, you are eventually going to get old, and you will look older than you once did. Sometimes you’re going to have pimples and the like. You’re not going to look perfect every day. This is going to happen regardless of what you put on your skin. You can accept this and try to come to terms with it, or you can deny it and spend a lot of money on stuff to put on your skin. Nothing lasts forever, and this includes your looks.

You do need to wear sunscreen, not tan, and not smoke. That’s a skin care regimen that has some actual science behind it.
posted by Anne Neville at 9:54 AM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]


It sure would be nice if everyone would understand that some people have acne - horrible, scar-causing, self-esteem crushing acne - EVEN WHILE hydrating, getting enough sleep and exercise, managing stress, and not drinking alcohol or eating processed foods. And yes, even while or after taking the medications approved to cure acne.

It's not simple for all of us.
posted by cooker girl at 9:57 AM on January 31, 2018 [101 favorites]


Yeah, this is becoming much like the "Psht! All you have to do to lose weight is eat less and move more!" argument which works for some, but not for all.
posted by kimberussell at 9:59 AM on January 31, 2018 [33 favorites]


I wonder how much the obsession with skincare is driven by the fact that makeup can actually highlight flaws (or at least it does for me!)

Skincare and makeup go hand-in-hand for only one reason: YOU CAN SELL PEOPLE MORE ITEMS IF YOU GIVE THEM A FACIAL first. Hand to God.

You go to any major line's cosmetic counter and the first thing they do is hit you with a skincare regimen, BEFORE the makeup. This is to make you buy more items.

There's honestly no other reason. Remember - the person you're talking to about this has sales goals humming in their head constantly on the floor. Whatever they're telling you about the product is happy conversation meant to introduce the next product.

Cross-selling is paramount is cosmetics.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 10:00 AM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


Heheh. I'm usually down to bash pseudoscience on the blue, but this is a topic that makes me go "Nooo!" and cling to my expensive AHAs and retinols and Japanese sunscreens. But it's ok, a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance now and then is good for your ... skin.
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:00 AM on January 31, 2018 [11 favorites]


Critiquing the fact that some of these products don't work and suggesting alternate skincare regimens isn't getting to the real problem, IMHO. After all, I don't know many men who spend $80 on imported serums in glass jars.

My real gripe with "skincare culture" is that it pressures women to look perfect and never show signs of aging, and then adds a creepy moral element to the whole thing -- oh what, you have zits or wrinkles? You must deserve it because you ate sugar, or skipped sunscreen too many times, or didn't drink enough water.
posted by noxperpetua at 10:01 AM on January 31, 2018 [42 favorites]


It's not simple, it's painful, it's embarrassing because everyone is so sure you've never heard you should drink water or keep your hands off your face or whatever other "just do this!" advice they think you're too stupid to have tried while walking around huge, deep, inflamed pus sacs in your face.

If you just have to splash a little water and sunscreen on your face, good for you! Not all of us are so lucky.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:02 AM on January 31, 2018 [38 favorites]


You can accept this and try to come to terms with it, or you can deny it and spend a lot of money on stuff to put on your skin. Nothing lasts forever, and this includes your looks.

For me, it was actually an awareness that I probably will exist 30-50 years from now that made start thinking of ways to take better care of myself. And that includes skin care and presenting a better version of myself at whichever age I am.
posted by FJT at 10:05 AM on January 31, 2018 [12 favorites]


If there's a middle ground to be taken on any given subject, you're never going to rack up those clicks taking it.

I get what you're saying, but Cheryl Wischhover, the Racked writer, is not taking an extreme position here. Her piece closes with this:

At the crux of the article is the argument that we — mostly women, mind you! — are all a bunch of silly pawns with no agency to overcome the stupidity of skincare thrust upon us by the industry. Trust me, I know what I’m getting myself into. Skincare has spawned a community of (mostly) women talking about it and bonding over it. It’s provided common ground. And it’s provided the chance for small victories, even if just over your wily pores.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:06 AM on January 31, 2018 [22 favorites]


Skincare products/regimes used, like any other signifier of status, is contentious and a bit of a crock.
As self-care, as a de-stressing tactic, as a way of saying to yourself "I deserve something nice, damn it" it's wonderful.

Lots of women, especially the standard American woman I am, and am familiar with, are stretched to the breaking point each day between competing family, work, and social commitments. Taking 30 minutes, or even 15 minutes a night to smear a bunch of nice-smelling goop on my face is sometimes the most relaxing thing I can do right before bed.

And sure, when I manage to do it regularly, my skin looks a little better. But my acne is way better, and I don't know about others, but pimples hurt. They're little painful pressure points that I can't just leave be for a week or two until they decide to subside (or more likely, swell and burst) on their own. That 15-30 min a night vs days of acne agony certainly seem worth it.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 10:06 AM on January 31, 2018 [16 favorites]


I have garbage skin. I follow all the obvious advice - moisturize, drink an absurd amount of water, sunscreen every day, exercise, I don't smoke, all that stuff - and I still have very bad skin. Having a small skincare process has been really good for my skin, and starting and ending my day with it has been beneficial for me. Talking to my fellow 30-something-plus women about this, and sharing product samples and what not with each other - kind of rules (also, I would imagine that most or all of us can tell how aggressively we're being marketed to. We're not idiots).
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:06 AM on January 31, 2018 [24 favorites]


At 41, I've kinda of grown very invested in skin care. I won't lie that a huge chunk of it is definitely vanity, but I come from a long line of Hispanic women who look stupidly marvelous in their dotage so it's like keeping my end of it with the white person genes I have half of. (My dad's family doesn't look amazing in their dotage.) I look pretty great for my age, but that's less skincare than genetics. I just rather like the ritual of face masks, gentle cleansers, and moisturizers. I've been using the routine M-F to signal to my body that it's time to wind down and get some rest.

Shopper's Drug Mart has these very fun face masks/peel-off masks etc for a $1 a packet and you get at least two to three uses out of them so I don't spend much on those. My facial moisturizer on the other hand is small batch and made locally so uh, I am spending at least $40 on a small jar.
posted by Kitteh at 10:07 AM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


All I know is that no matter what I have put on my face it still looks exactly the same shortly thereafter. Maybe some people's skin is different and that stuff works for them?
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:07 AM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


I'm amused that this article about how skin care is a scam and we should have like acne positivity has resulted in a thread where I am told that blemish-free skin is actually easily achievable (so if I have blemishes there must be something wrong with my life).
posted by muddgirl at 10:08 AM on January 31, 2018 [30 favorites]


My real gripe with "skincare culture" is that it pressures women to look perfect and never show signs of aging, and then adds a creepy moral element to the whole thing

The world pressures women to look perfect. I've had multiple bosses tell me I have to wear makeup even when my face conditions weren't inflamed because I "look sick" (thanks deep set eyes with hereditary dark under eye circles!). Kids would point at my face in stores and loudly say "what is wrong with her face?!?!" and then the mother, not even bothering to get out of earshot, would use me as an object lesson on cleanliness. Some of us also grew up in cultures where pure skin meant a pure soul. It's not as simple as saying that the skincare industry pressures women to spend money through moralistic and shaming practices. In most ways they're just reflecting the culture we're all stewing in.

And if we're pressured at every side to try to seek this perfection, then why shame the people who enjoy it and find a benefit in it? Is it related to how women and femininity is often seen as vain and vapid and useless?
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:08 AM on January 31, 2018 [20 favorites]


And yes, there should be more pimple acceptance and less mocking & shaming, but that's not on the people with bad skin! We're not the ones going around pointing, laughing, and reminding people to meditate about it.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:15 AM on January 31, 2018 [8 favorites]


I admit I lucked out, but the thing is, it's in the industry's interest to maintain that everybody has a "condition," so as to sell zit treatments. They tell you you have to determine your skin type and then buy whatever the shit is for your type, and even "normal" skin needs treatment with XYZ. If you're having a slight issue, not cystic acne, then you might want to see whether in your case nothing is better than something. It's possible you lucked out and should quit messing up your face.

Back in the day I used to get zits occasionally, so naturally I tried to have a skin care regimen. But if there's nothing wrong with your face and you start to "treat" it, you will cause things to go wrong with your face. Anything I washed my face with dried it out and made it really tight and itchy and red and blotchy, and then if I put any emollients on it, I'd grow another crop of zits, and the cycle would begin anew. It sucked. So I renounced skincare.

In the morning I splash my face with flaming hot shower water because it feels good and removes the sleep from my eyes. I dry my face with my bath towel. I ripped out my unibrow a million years ago and it never grew back, so now my beauty regimen is that if I think of it, at some point during the day I'll take my index finger and sortof shove up my eyebrows in case they got disarranged during my morning regimen and now I look like a cave dweller. My night regimen is to go to sleep.

I get maybe one zit in three years. When that happens, I squish it and blast the tiny wound with rubbing alcohol. Every so often like if I have to go to a wedding, I'll get my eyebrows threaded. I considered getting my sun damage from being a huge dumbass throughout my adolescence fried off, but it's too much money and I got used to it and nobody cares and so far knock wood nothing's gone melanoma, so fuck it.

All that said, if I were rich as Croesus, I would totally get a huuuuuge bathtub and have an entire walk-in closet full of Lush crap to throw in the water just so I'd have the option if I wanted to do a Whole Procedure with every possible product (legwash, armwash, delicates freshener, allover scrub, body conditioner, roots shampoo, ends shampoo, roots conditioner, ends conditioner, finishing rinse, polisher, glosser, every mask, everything else). If anything gave me a rash, I'd just have a dermatologist in.

I have not found that coffee is drying; it's full of water, and its diuretic properties are noticeable only when you're beginning your caffeine addiction. I have found that not drinking like a maniacal clown helps a lot with alcoholic rosacea. If your face gets burning hot and people remark that you're blushing, but you're not blushing, try reducing your intake to a less clownish level and see if it doesn't stop happening.

I want to do babyfeet so bad: it sounds totally disgusting and cool.

I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today!, my beloved friend has what sounds like your exact face and gets told that kind of horrible shit all the time. I bet that you, like my friend, will never see a wrinkle and will remain dewy into your nineties. And all these cleanfaced snots will look like apple dolls. And also to hell with them.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:23 AM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]


I am ridiculously obsessed with One! Weird! Skincare! Trick! I recently discovered a face wash that really, really, really works for me. It's from Lush (Aqua Marina). It probably does not work for everyone! But it works for me. And I feel a LOT better in my skin and with my skin than I have since I was prepubescent. And I loved this product so much that I bought some new hair products from them, too. And now my hair also looks amazing!

Sometimes some products work for some people. That is the beginning and end of the story. All this entire discussion makes me think is that women are always wrong, no matter what we do: damned if you have bad skin, damned if you buy lots of products to help your skin be less bad, because: ladyparts.
posted by sockermom at 10:28 AM on January 31, 2018 [15 favorites]


I bet that you, like my friend, will never see a wrinkle and will remain dewy into your nineties.

HA! Nope, got the fine lines showing up faster and faster each day, they're just somewhat masked by the freckles and scars and giant pores.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:28 AM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


My real gripe with "skincare culture" is that it pressures women to look perfect and never show signs of aging, and then adds a creepy moral element to the whole thing -- oh what, you have zits or wrinkles? You must deserve it because you ate sugar, or skipped sunscreen too many times, or didn't drink enough water.

That's also true with general health stuff, especially breast cancer (of course, because it's a disease that affects mostly women). I once heard someone say with a straight face that people got breast cancer because they "ate too many french fries" (and yep, that is verbatim, and nope, she wasn't kidding). I heard another woman refer to breast cancer as "totally preventable" (again, verbatim). A lot of it is the just-world fallacy, of course, but a lot of it is the notion that women are justly punished when they don't do the things women should do (hey, if you don't avoid foods that might cause you to gain weight, you'll get cancer! If you don't spend hours a week tending to your skin, you'll be an old hag and everyone will think you're disgusting! etc.)
posted by holborne at 10:30 AM on January 31, 2018 [14 favorites]


Just a notion, but is living in a climate which isn't very dry easier on the skin?

Not blaming people who do live in dry/sunny places, but might climate be a factor that gets left out?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:30 AM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]


That first article is rubbish. Skincare is less of a scam than ever right now, precisely because some people have become so obsessed with it. You used to have a choice between cheap products that were ineffective if not actively harmful, expensive products that were ineffective if not actively harmful, and outrageously expensive products, etc. Now if you have a problem with your skin, you can just google it and the obsessed people have done all the research for you about which active ingredients work and how, and which inactive ingredients are actually bad for skin. There are reviews of everything. Nothing works for everyone, but there are certainly ingredients that have been shown to be generally effective.

A few years ago I started getting itchy, painful acne on my cheeks and chin for the first time in my life. It was awful, it was like having face fleas. So I read what the online skincare people were writing, and experimented with some creams and exfoliants. Now I'm down to a basic regimen which consists of a very mild, fragrance-free cream cleanser, an antioxidant essence (when I can get it), and a mild, heavy fragrance-free moisturiser. If I get any pimples or start to itch, I use a 2% BHA lotion which costs $29 at Paula's Choice. I've been on the same bottle since last April. And I pretty much don't have to worry about acne any more. My favourite thing is feeling in control of whether I have acne or not; my skin isn't just something that happens to me. And knowing a bit about skincare has saved me absolutely tons of money because I know that most products are a waste of time, especially for someone with sensitive skin. As for women's oppression, it's not like gentle, effective chemical exfoliation is no part of it, but it's not really the part I'd get rid of first.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:30 AM on January 31, 2018 [33 favorites]


TIP! Lush makes solid shampoos and conditioners. The shamps work on all hair, the conditioner really only works on short hair. I just figured this out, having gone to the
TIIIP!! barber (for $20, inclusive of gratuity, not the salon for $60, tip extra) and had a foot of hair chopped off. The green conditioner to which I am addicted because the smell is amazing now works like a dream. With long hair it was impossible.

"got the fine lines showing up faster and faster each day," I KNEW YOU'D SAY THAT because she says that, too, and I am like, hah? because only she can see the fine lines, whereas everybody can see me rocking crepe.

YES climate. That is a really good point.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:35 AM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


I'm sort of mystified by the skincare trend, mostly because I find skincare to be a pain-in-the-ass chore that I mostly forget to do and that is never going to be fun. I totally understand the allure of beautifully-packaged, great-smelling, expensive products, but I'm not going to buy fancy skincare products, because I think of taking care of my skin as being akin to brushing my teeth. I'm sure someone makes aspirational toothpaste, too, but I'm not in the market for it.

But I'm fine with other people having hobbies. I spend money on fancy office supplies, which I'm sure seems equally wacky to many people.

Japanese sunscreen, on the other hand, is totally my thing, because it's amazing. I don't think it's very good for my skin: the secret ingredient is alcohol. But it absorbs like nobody's business, which is good for a lazy, skincare-adverse person like me.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:36 AM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


I want to do babyfeet so bad: it sounds totally disgusting and cool.

It is extremely disgusting and cool, you should totally do it if you can!
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:36 AM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


Don't drink too much caffeine or alcohol (both of which are natural diuretics and will leach your skin of its needed moisture.)

The internet and social media has allowed a lot of sub-communities to interact (skincare/beauty/wellness/diet/health), which has generated a rash (heh) of advice/information/hacks that kind of mix things up. I've read a lot of internet articles and discussions about improving your skin by cutting out not only caffeine and alcohol, but also dairy, gluten, and/or sugar.

I want to say it's all a sham, but I did cut out dairy for a few months last year and it did improve my skin. So, I'm just not sure anymore.
posted by FJT at 10:37 AM on January 31, 2018


It may sound like a scam, but snail slime HAS saved my skin after years of suffering from itchy and inflamed skin, AND this supposed scam-world helped me figure out the exact ingredients that caused me to suffer from relentless cystic acne. AND now because of this 'scammy fad,' there are ingredient lists posted all over the internet, which enables me to never order anything with those problematic ingredients.

So maybe it's not solving a problem that everyone faces, but for some of us it is life-changing to be able to find actual information that reflects reality. I don't agree for one second that current skincare knowledge is a giant scam, and my skin is SO happy now.
posted by thegreatfleecircus at 10:38 AM on January 31, 2018 [30 favorites]


When I was in my late 20s, I typed up my skincare regimen (and frustrations) on my Livejournal and the shock from a male friend at the steps and products necessary - and the absolute lack of skin health to show for it - made me take a step back and decide against it. I was going to stop with makeup and all the other steps and just be conscious, instead, of how my skin felt. If it felt dry (often after a shower), I would put light moisturizer on it. If it felt greasy, I'd wash with water and a wash cloth. That was it.

My skin is so much better now, years later. But it still goes into rare flares of zits - often tied to chocolate consumption, unfortunately. So much of the skincare regimen was tied to 1) cleaning off the makeup, 2) moisturizing to recover from stripping facial oils along with the makeup, 3) clearing out the blackheads from too much moisturizer and makeup, 4) makeup to cover up how my skin was reacting to all of the above. I can be a skin-picker, too, sometimes, so less time in front of a mirror staring at my face also helped my face heal better, too.

I've ordered some of that Japanese SPF cream and it is really nice at keeping me from getting sunburned *and* not clogging my pores too much.
posted by jillithd at 10:39 AM on January 31, 2018


I've read a lot of internet articles and discussions about improving your skin by cutting out not only caffeine and alcohol, but also dairy, gluten, and/or sugar.
Right, and that gets back to the whole bullshit thing where having good skin is seen to be indicative of virtue.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:39 AM on January 31, 2018 [19 favorites]


I used to use a single layer of moisturizer + sunscreen and my face would burn every winter. Then I switched to layering 3/4 products and this winter has been so much better.
posted by airmail at 10:40 AM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Japanese sunscreen, on the other hand, is totally my thing, because it's amazing. I don't think it's very good for my skin: the secret ingredient is alcohol.

I've been scared of alcohol ever since I put some US alcohol-based sunscreen on my face and my eyes burned. I'm using EltaMD now, and from everything I've read it's got above average UVA and UVB protection. I know the Japanese sunscreens provide better UVA protection and that there are a couple of alcohol free ones, so eventually I might buy one and try it out.
posted by FJT at 10:46 AM on January 31, 2018


At age 12 I developed implacable cystic acne. Multiple dermatologists, multiple year-long rounds of antibiotics / topical RX regimens / regular facials / purchased masks and products / DIY masks / supplements and dietary changes, nothing helped. I usually had at least one giant, hard, unpoppable cyst at a time, often more, plus some smaller poppable entities, plus blackheads. To head off cyst development, I'd try to pop the poppable ones, often guessing wrong and making an unpoppable cyst worse. As soon as one cyst finally began healing, another would brew. And they do hurt, a lot, and knowing there was absolutely nothing I could do to stop them hurting made it worse. It would trigger my OCD and I'd pick for an hour or more every day, because at least then I could have some control over the hurting, at least in my mind. The one day in seventh grade that I didn't use cover-up -- because none of the drugstore concealer or foundation I had would begin to address the horror that was my forehead on that day no matter how much I layered it -- multiple kids over the course of that day recoiled from me in the hallway and yelled 'what's WRONG with your FACE?!' So by eighth grade I was using Dermablend. My mother would tell me how hideous I looked without it. Even when I stopped presenting as female, I still used concealer every day, because I was scared people would yell about my monstrousness. Sometimes I even slept in it, when I was dating people, because I was afraid my partners would see my face.

Some decades on, things are finally better... but they only stay better if I use no products on my face. At all. Not even soap. Even sunscreen breaks me out, which means I live like a vampire basically, because my skin is fair and will burn. I know that this is not the case for everyone! For some people, the right products help. But makeup has been an expectation for female-presenting-people for decades, and the push to market skincare regimens and the use of makeup as 'self care' doesn't make it any easier. I found it very difficult to find employment, when presenting as a female person, because I didn't adhere to the expected rituals and the required presentations. (Particularly for public-facing jobs; on more than one interview, I could see myself being dropped from consideration as the interviewers looked at my unpainted nails and my makeup-free face.) But I couldn't adhere to them, because they make my skin worse and because, frankly, they push me back into a really anxious place and trigger the compulsion to pick.

It would be super great and cool if people could have skincare regimens, or not have skincare regimens, just as it pleased them. The pushback from the Outline article is perhaps ill-considered in its rhetoric, given the demands of click publishing in an attention economy, but I do find myself uneasy about skincare culture, and the further demands it places on people, and the entire process of commodifying pain and anxiety that undergirds the industry. Increasingly everyone is expected to look like a dang Instagram model shopped within an inch of their lives, #nofilter, and while skincare culture isn't at fault for that, skincare culture does feed on that and into that, to an extent.
posted by halation at 10:47 AM on January 31, 2018 [15 favorites]


Since moving to New Zealand over a decade ago, I’ve had to pay more attention to my skin. Friends in the skincare field advised me to use Cetaphil; not one pimple since i started. Every few years I’ll splurge on Bliss face wash because it smells so good and makes my skin feel great. I didn’t use daily SPF cream the first year or so and the result was freckles suddenly appearing. NOPE. now it’s Oil of Olay SPF everyday on face, neck, and throat. Lush bath bombs every few weeks because my new house has ridiculous bathroom with spa tub that demands usage. It’s calming. i have had to become more sun/skin aware.
posted by lemon_icing at 10:48 AM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


I used to be one of those people who would get complimented on my skin and would faux modestly reply, "thanks! I just use cetaphil wash and some neutrogena moisturizer with spf! Skin really does't need all that other stuff." Then I was switched to a different form of hormonal birth control and my skin became a grease-producing acne-ridden horrorshow; I was using multiple blotting sheets a day, my glasses were always smeary. I felt disgusting. Now, thanks to this skincare industry boom and people on the internet gabbing about products and ingredients, I use like 6 things in the morning and at night (but that includes an eye cream) and you know what, it HELPS! It makes my disgusting messy skin less disgusting and messy and my zits are few and far between. Congrats to those of you who don't see a need for a complicated regimen, but spare the rest of us your lectures about hydration. Literally the only lifestyle change I made was getting a birth control implant.
posted by leesh at 10:49 AM on January 31, 2018 [31 favorites]


Just a notion, but is living in a climate which isn't very dry easier on the skin?

Definitely. Whenever I go to Hong Kong it's wonderful, like someone's following me with a mister 24/7

In contrast, Calgary was awful, I felt like I was turning into a raisin
posted by airmail at 10:52 AM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


And if we're pressured at every side to try to seek this perfection, then why shame the people who enjoy it and find a benefit in it?

Why is critiquing the industry and the culture around it having to be equated to shaming individuals?

I personally spend a fair bit of time and money on skincare. I'm also aware that it's an industry that is playing off of women's insecurities, and that the current makeup/skin/beauty culture demands a level of perfection that seems higher than it used to be.

Yeah, I do like getting that new serum in the mail, but I'm also envious of people (and let's be real -- these are mostly men) who don't worry so much about their looks and can just not give a shit.
posted by noxperpetua at 10:52 AM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


Everyone do babyfoot if you can, it is absolutely cool and disgusting, I love it more than is reasonable.

As for face care stuff, I have always had skin that's fairly 'good' - smooth and clear, tending toward the reddish but not too terribly so, so I never bothered to develop a skin care regime. At closing in on forty, I am seeing the beginning of a couple of wrinkles and I guess I have pores now? So I'm sort of half-assedly trying to figure out at least a basic 'no, really, you have to moisturize, self' routine. And I've been playing around with some samples of various skincare things because it's kind of fun for me, starting from an "everything is basically fine, but I can I make it even better somehow?" scenario.

But I have friends who have other skin situations all over the spectrum, and they have various regimens ranging from simple to seemingly super-complicated, and I'm just happy for them if they have something that works for them and makes them look/feel the way they want to look/feel. I have plenty of thoughts about capitalist nonsense and patriarchal beauty standards and blah blah blah, but also if taking fifteen minutes to indulge in a little personal ritual makes my friend feel better about some aspect of her life, I'm all for it, whether that's meditation or a walk or putting some snail goo on her face. I think we should ideally be able to mostly separate industry-level critiques from making individual people feel badly about themselves.

Also I just really think everyone should at least once experience the joy of sloughing a giant sheet of skin off your own foot. It's amazing.
posted by Stacey at 10:55 AM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


Why is critiquing the industry and the culture around it having to be equated to shaming individuals?

Because when it comes to women and if we're doing it right or wrong (it's always wrong) critiquing the "culture" pretty much always comes down to shaming the individuals. You can see it in this very thread.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:58 AM on January 31, 2018 [14 favorites]


Also I just really think everyone should at least once experience the joy of sloughing a giant sheet of skin off your own foot. It's amazing.

the abject horror and delight at the prospect of this holds me in decision paralysis.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:01 AM on January 31, 2018 [19 favorites]


I have great skin and barely any wrinkles at 45 because of a not-terribly-strict regimen of chemical peels, copper peptide serum, some kind of carrier oil (jojoba, argan, etc), Frownies and zit cream. I took Accutane in my 20s because of persistent cystic acne. I still get some ordinary zits on the regular and buy Jan Marini benzoyl peroxide cream because it is a much better, and actually more cost effective, product than Stridex or Neutrogena. I’ve bought snail serum and some other stuff and it seems to work pretty well. I use the oil cleansing method to keep the gunk out of my pores. None of these products are terribly expensive and they last a long time. I probably spend about $300 a year on skin care products and another $200 a year on makeup.

So? It’s my fucking money and obviously the products I use are effective. I’m tired of this bullshit where some article jumps on a thing women do to enjoy themselves and harps on how stupid and expensive it is. It costs half as much as an Xbox. It costs 1/3 as much as an iPhone. I know people who spend hundreds of dollars a month on BEER. I live in the city where people are spending thousands of dollars to watch one football game this weekend. If I want to peel my face off and ponder the effectiveness of copper molecules on cellular turnover, then I fucking will, God.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:03 AM on January 31, 2018 [85 favorites]


Coincidentally, I just got back from the dermatologist, who did not care at all what the hell I'm doing or not doing to my skin aside from using sunscreen and showing up for yet another skin cancer check.

Y'all do what you want to do, or don't, but try to avoid melanoma.
posted by asperity at 11:04 AM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


Fun fact: chemical peels are an effective preventative measure against basal cell carcinoma.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:06 AM on January 31, 2018 [25 favorites]


Autumnheart I wish I could give you more than one favorite.
posted by muddgirl at 11:08 AM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


One of my things to do in 2018 is to try to have a real life spa day that includes skincare. I mean, I'm more in it for the massage, but I have never been pampered with a facial too so I really want to do it.
posted by Kitteh at 11:16 AM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


I guess I figure other people's skin care regime is none of my fucking business.

Skin is complicated. Whatever works.
posted by maxsparber at 11:19 AM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]


Btw, anyone complaining about the expense of skin care products should head to the greatest skin care forum on the planet: essentialdayspa.com/forum

There’s a whole subsection in there for DIY where people are reverse-engineering products, like Cellex-C and Strivectin (both of which have good reputations for being effective, but cost an arm and a leg), and posting where to source the ingredients. There’s also tons of reviews from people who are trying various methods and products for long-term effectiveness. It is an amazing place.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:19 AM on January 31, 2018 [15 favorites]


I am aware of the ills of patriarchy and capitalism, but dammit, snail mucus and AHA/BHA exfoliants have made a seriously significant improvement in the texture of my skin, and I am way, way less oily now. My t-zone area used to be an oil slick by mid-day, but after I started regularly using chemical exfoliant, I no longer have that problem. I've also seen modest improvements in my rosacea. I know I'm never going to have the poreless, even-toned look! But I can reduce my persistent redness, and I can have skin that feels good, and that's all for me. I've done the nothing but water and moisturizer with SPF thing: my skin doesn't look horrible on that regime, oiliness aside, but it does look and feel a hell of a lot nicer when I do the multi-step moisturizing and exfoliating routine.
posted by yasaman at 11:24 AM on January 31, 2018 [9 favorites]


but I have never been pampered with a facial

DOOOOO IT
posted by cooker girl at 11:25 AM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


I love going into the K beauty store on my block and playing with all the potions. It's like playing witches in grade school But in the end, I'd rather spend my money on shoes.

I acknowledge that I'm lucky, though, because water, a washcloth, Complex 15, whatever sunscreen is in the house and--very occasionally--mascara remover are all my skin needs.
posted by crush at 11:28 AM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Nothing has ever been able to cure my oiliness. Alas.

However, if you want your pores to disappear, there’s a product that Makeup Forever makes called Ultra HD Microfinishing Powder. It’s a very fine silica powder that basically makes you look like you photoshopped your face. Head into a Sephora and give the tester a whirl.

Then, walk back out of Sephora because Makeup Forever wants $36 for that tiny little .29 ounce jar, and go here instead. Same stuff, just straight from the wholesaler, an ounce will cost you $5. Yes, five.

Half the fun of skin care as a hobby is finding cheap versions that are just as effective as the expensive stuff.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:31 AM on January 31, 2018 [52 favorites]


What's that saying about don't be talking shit about shit you don't know shit about?

Meditate your way to better skin.

THAT'S it. Of COURSE. All this time that the oxy- and avobenzones ubiquitous in most sunblocks have caused my face to erupt in painful red cysts it was really because I wasn't thinking positively enough. MY BAD.
posted by phunniemee at 11:36 AM on January 31, 2018 [21 favorites]


I am prone to occasional cystic acne outbreaks; mostly on my back, but sometimes on my face.

I also take after all the women on my mothers' side of the family, in that we all look about ten years younger than we actually are. No wrinkles, and just the barest hint of crows' feet starting at the age of 47.

I used to try all sorts of various lotions and treatments and this-es and that-s to fix the acne issue. But then I came to accept that it's just a fact of my genetic makeup - I'm also prone to breast cysts, and have had an ovarian cyst once, and so therefore cysts are just a part of my genetic history, just like the looking-young bit is. All the creams and treatments in the world will not ever alter my DNA.

So now I just use a gentle regular soap in the morning, but with a pair of those scrubby gloves (I seem to need extra exfoliation), and be done with it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:42 AM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Autumnheart, I've generally been hesitant to use finishing powders, because any powder clings to every single fine peachfuzz hair on my face, and I flat out REFUSE to care about Yet Another Hair Removal Problem, especially for hairs that are literally invisible until powder reveals them. Plus, no other supposedly pore-disappearing products have ever, in fact, disappeared my pores. Do you know if it's fine enough to avoid the "look upon my secretly fuzzy face" problem?
posted by yasaman at 11:42 AM on January 31, 2018


> when it comes to women and if we're doing it right or wrong (it's always wrong) critiquing the "culture" pretty much always comes down to shaming the individuals. You can see it in this very thread.

Amen.

Did you know that sending greeting cards and thank you cards will help your skin? I think it's all the gratitude. If you have bad skin, it's because you don't meditate enough about how grateful you are for water or do enough unpaid emotional labor for your extended family and your grandparents' friends.

Also, this Pitapat eraser face gel is amazing and much cheaper than another version I'd used (Roth). I am definitely going to do one of these baby foot things now!
posted by bookdragoness at 11:46 AM on January 31, 2018 [8 favorites]


I think what anybody puts on their face is completely their private matter (and the only things I will object to are strong perfumes in confined spaces or those terrible men's sports fragrances which provide a stifling back-drop to any changing room in a gym), but what struck me as interesting was how the second article actually wrapped up with an ironic, condescending:

"At the crux of the article is the argument that we — mostly women, mind you! — are all a bunch of silly pawns with no agency to overcome the stupidity of skincare thrust upon us by the industry."

So, apparently, a reference to the empowerment of women is now the new Godwin's Law.
posted by Laotic at 11:51 AM on January 31, 2018


I note that the “Skincare is a con” article doesn’t explore how any of these products work, at all. The worst thing they even talk about is when people overdo it with harsh products and inflame their skin. They say zip about what happens when people use the products as directed, especially with complementary products. Their entire premise is “We think it’s bad and a waste of money just because reasons.”

And IMO r/skincareaddiction is full of terrible advice.

The trick to using the silica finishing powder is that you only need a very small amount and you blend it in for a few seconds longer than you ordinarily might. The powder is white and can give one a whitish cast if you use a lot or don’t blend it enough, but as someone who is lazy as shit about my makeup routine, we’re talking 10-20 seconds of blending. (More if you’re a brown-skinned person.) It doesn’t make my peach fuzz show up. The grains are extremely fine, like baby powder. I can’t say how it will look on your skin, all I can suggest is to try it at a store—but at that link in my previous post, you can buy a 6g sample for $1.75 (the $36 jar is 8g!) and give it a whirl. Shipping is about $5.

My sister used mineral makeup for a while, and I never wanted to try it myself because it seemed to sit on top of her skin instead of blending in. This does not do that.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:52 AM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


Everyone do babyfoot if you can, it is absolutely cool and disgusting, I love it more than is reasonable.

I got these recently and I didn't get the brand name, but: If you're prone to callouses cracking, my experience was that this was THE WORST, but that it turned out the instructions about not using lotion? Didn't actually matter for me, though it took a bit longer. I didn't get the big sheets or whatever, and I should probably also add a warning that it's a big skin-picking trigger, but aside from the couple cracks, I was very happy with the results. You just really, really have to leave it the hell alone until it's ready.

I like stuff like this best, I think? Where it's like a Project. I'm not trying to get better feet for someone else's sake. I'm doing it for the process. I think "work out good ways to take care of yourself that feel good and fit within your lifestyle" is great and useful, and I love in particular that the end result of this everybody ever talks about is LOOK AT ALL THIS DEAD SKIN. It isn't an unattainable goal thing. It is in fact something where your feet have to be even more horrible than usual for 7-14 days to get the end result. I like painting my nails for similar reasons. It's a project that I can enjoy but I'm not seriously anxious about random strangers' opinions of my fingernails the way I am about the acne.
posted by Sequence at 11:53 AM on January 31, 2018 [11 favorites]


I think a lot of status symbols these days are not just about showing off income or taste, but also time to burn.

You might be interested in Thorstein Veblen's Theory of the Leisure Class, which discusses this at length. You can't just get a tan; you have to get a tan which shows that you have hours to spend doing nothing but laying there getting tanned. A farmer tan is No Good.
posted by clawsoon at 11:53 AM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]


Also worth considering that some of us have been through different types of skin, and the skincare regime that worked in the past just doesn’t anymore. When you suddenly have different skin chemistry than you used to, being able to find resources that say “if your skin is like this, use this product. If you skin is like THIS, use this other product” can be extremely helpful, because randomly buying expensive things to see how it goes is not the best option.

I spent a lot of years being told what would cure my acne— turning 16! no, 18! no, 21! no, diet! no, drink more water! no, this prescription drug! no, this other prescription drug! no, this other prescription drug! no, no no nononononononno. (The answer was Accutane.)

Post-Accutane, I started getting a lot of “your skin is so beautiful!” comments that were not only alien to me, but sometimes frustrating— because by that point, I had become one of those “just some tinted moisturizer” people, but I knew it was a lie. I knew that the real answer was “scary potentially fatal drugs and years of people giving me bad advice”.

Also, as with many things, a lot of women get into skincare stuff because it’s kind of low-stress and fun to do with your friends. Facemasks, birch box, this primer didn’t work for me but you’re welcome to it if you want to try the new formula, this had great reviews but it just turned me into a greaseball— it can be a nice social primate grooming activity, even if you know most of the pseudo-science is pseudo. The idea that women are all merely credulous consumers of snake oil is, as ever, nonsense.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:56 AM on January 31, 2018 [20 favorites]


What I love most about the rise of skincare nation is how EASY it is now to research ingredients, methods and products. I used to stand in front of a wall of stuff and go "retinol? maybe?", but now I have a really easy, really inexpensive routine made up of building blocks. Acids in the morning, retinoids at night, NEVER any physical exfoliant stronger than a soft cloth. I've had oily, acne-prone skin my whole life, and get this, now I use OIL on my FACE and it's wonderful and supple! Hang around the skincare boards (Makeup Alley, Reddit if you aren't opposed, etc) and you'll learn so much. I buy The Ordinary acids and retinoids, and use squalene or argan oil. It's made a real difference.
posted by ersatzkat at 11:58 AM on January 31, 2018 [15 favorites]


I note that the “Skincare is a con” article doesn’t explore how any of these products work, at all. The worst thing they even talk about is when people overdo it with harsh products and inflame their skin. They say zip about what happens when people use the products as directed, especially with complementary products. Their entire premise is “We think it’s bad and a waste of money just because reasons.”

This reverses the general burden of proof. If you're going to take $75 of someone's money for snail mucus or whatever, the burden is on you to show that your product does work, not vice versa. Mostly, they don't (not in any serious way), because they can't. And if they could, they would. The handful of products that do cause specific and measurable changes sure do let you know about them.

Again, a person wants to spend her time and energy on products because they make her feel good, because they're fun to play with, because they smell nice...whatever...it's her time and energy. I could say something about broader pressures of consumptive femininity, but it's not the responsibility of any given woman trapped in that system to revolt. But I do object to lies in marketing.
posted by praemunire at 12:06 PM on January 31, 2018 [9 favorites]


The thing about the Korean beauty 10 or 12 step regimen is that I've only ever seen the beauty magazines or beauty product sales websites touting the number of steps. Take one step into the Asian Beauty subreddit, or read any of the blogs written by k-beauty folks, and it becomes really clear really fast that you can customize your routine to be as minimal or maximal as you want. You can go for the "weird" ingredients like propolis, horse oil, snail mucin... or you can buy numerous products that don't contain anything you wouldn't find in a brand available at CVS. Fixating on "omg the number of steps" just tells me that you skimmed two articles and decided you knew everything there was to know about it.

I started using Korean products about three weeks ago, because I'd been wanting to try the Missha first treatment essence and the night repair serum that's a dupe of the Estee Lauder night repair serum, but half the price and with some interesting additions to the ingredients. Have I bought more stuff? Of course I have. Am I doing a double cleanse in the evenings, first with an oil cleanser and then a foaming one, before I move on to toner and serum and whatever? Damn right, because first off, the oil cleanser I bought smells incredible and does a great job of getting makeup and sunscreen and basic grunge off my face. And second, doing the double cleanse added maybe one minute to my face-washing time at night, but my face is so much more clean, and most crucially... IT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD. I'm going through absolute hell right now in my personal life and literally the only things that distract me from that and make me feel even the slightest bit good are food, and taking care of my face. And eating my feelings isn't a great idea because I can't afford to outgrow my current wardrobe. So, I spend half an hour every night fucking around with my face. My skin looks pretty great, although I've been lucky to not have major skin problems anyway, but more importantly, I feel less detached from my body than I otherwise would during this time period of extreme stress. Knock it all you want, pretend that I'm just some dumb woman rubbing useless things on my face because a magazine told me to. Whatever you need to feel superior.
posted by palomar at 12:12 PM on January 31, 2018 [26 favorites]


Then it’s on the consumer to do their research, which as someone else pointed out, has never been easier.

I also object to the idea that being a woman who likes a product marketed to women means I’m trapped in a system. That’s just another bullshit framing mechanism that tells women that anything they do is wrong and hurts other people, especially if they do it for themselves.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:13 PM on January 31, 2018 [18 favorites]


So, I've spent some years consulting on the formulation of skin care products, in conjunction with companies like Dow, to eliminate petroleum ingredients, and introduce botanicals and essential oils.

For the most part, there are four tiers of cosmetic ingredients; (I'm speaking here of foundations/shadows/stains)

1.) cheap and ok, Most drug store brands. Most use the same base ingredients as their counterparts, but with higher inerts/lower pigment load, so for example; your $5.00 powder will look the same in the tin as a $50 powder, but you will never get the pigment load of a higher end product. Trying to make it look like what you think it should look like is how you end up over-applying and kinda cakey.

2.) moderate and good: Also found at chain retail and larger drugstores, these cosmetics range in the $10+. They still have more filler than department store, but generally provide a solid value for dollar. Applied with a kabuki brush, for example, most midrange foundation powders apply as well and wear as long as department store brands.

3.) Department Store Common: These brands generally have the best pigment distribution and weight. However, the vast majority of their cost is because of their marketing, and not because of their ingredients. MAC is awesome, but it's priced to make you feel special when you buy it, not because that's how much the ingredients are worth. (To be fair, some of the most talented colorists in the world work for MAC.)

4.) Stupid Expensive and Absurd: All cosmetics use the same color pigments. From the same manufacturers. From the same factories. A $75 eye shadow is insulting, and you should be insulted. Grrr.

Re lotions and whatnot: I know this will sound crazy, but there are formulation databases where you can see the base formulations for almost every product. Dollar for dollar, from an ingredients standpoint, Oil of Olay products provide the best value, in that their formulations are very similar to products costing twice as much.

I personally use my own formula of primrose oil with ylang ylang and clary sage essential oils, but my skin absorbs oils like I'm an eggplant in a skillet. I have converted most of my friends into using oils on their skin as moisturizers, and minerals for makeup.

There is very little available on a cosmetics counter than you cannot safely create yourself using natural ingredients, a coffee grinder, a scale, a supplier list, and a willingness to fail the first few times.

(Liquid liners and mascara are the exception here, never buy cheap liner or mascara or attempt to make or use homemade mascara.)
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:14 PM on January 31, 2018 [21 favorites]


I got a really great oil cleanser in a vegan makeup box a year ago and oh man, I wish I could buy some more, but it's from the US and the exchange rate plus shipping is ridionkulous. The Burt's Bees stuff I bought to replace it is okay but I don't like its results as much.
posted by Kitteh at 12:17 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


TIL about TKB Trading from Autumnheart and hollleeeeee crap this is amazeballs.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:19 PM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


Kitteh - lots of us would be happy to ship to you!
posted by ersatzkat at 12:20 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


God, I am dreading the day the Purity Patrol comes for my curly-hair routine, where I am finally mostly OK with the way my hair looks, and tells me I'm doing it all wrong and the curly hair regimen is a scam! And I am a dumbdumb for falling for it! Sometimes hair is puffy and frizzy! Embrace your puffiness!

OK but tell my bosses to embrace it first.
posted by muddgirl at 12:21 PM on January 31, 2018 [16 favorites]


The thing about this article is that it is just totally uninformed. It is like they didn't even talk to a single person who knows a single thing about 1) the skin care fad or 2) skin itself. Nobody would recommend using a loofah on your face - that is just not a part of the fad at all!

I have a complicated routine after years of just using moisturizer and now people say, 'you look terrific!' all the time. If they say, 'whats your secret?' I say 'snail mucin'! Every single woman who has bought it has loved it. Also its like $17 a bottle for cosrx.

Also my skin is so dry it used to hurt and now it feels nice and not painful. Suck it haters! You will pry my too many steps to count routine from my cold dead hands.
posted by goneill at 12:24 PM on January 31, 2018 [14 favorites]


The hilarious thing is that if I took a picture of myself right now, I would reveal myself to look like every middle-aged woman ever and like I apparently gave up trying years ago. The Purity Patrol would never know that I’m wearing $5 silica powder and am super metal with my self-inflicted controlled acid burns.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:25 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


goneill, I'm totally falling in love with Cosrx. Probably the best product I've tried out so far is their overnight rice spa mask -- during winter I tend to wake up with a face that looks like I slept in a box of silica gel packets, but not when I use the rice mask.
posted by palomar at 12:27 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


I am just starting to learn more about skin care and this is such a good thread! I've leveled up to snail mucin but haven't reached the double/oil cleansing levels yet. I've been getting these horrifying volcano zits that never come to a head (and just..melt back into my forehead after a week) since getting on different birth control and it literally never occurred to me to research ingredients in my various makeup products and see if any of those have a reputation for making acne worse. And after spending way too much money for way too long on Sunday Riley I'm looking forward to doing more research and seeing if there are lower cost products like those from The Ordinary that would accomplish the same thing. also definitely open to links on how to figure out what's best for one's particular skin issues/goals if anyone's in a sharing mood!
posted by stellaluna at 12:27 PM on January 31, 2018


Also its like $17 a bottle for cosrx.
Is that cheap or expensive?!

I have literally never had anyone comment on my skin, good or bad.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:28 PM on January 31, 2018


I've been using/recommending Camden Grey for decades for essential oils and small ingredient purchases. They were one of the first company's willing to sell to small formulators, perfumers and soapmakers. I outgrew them for some ingredients, but I like them a lot for small buys.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:29 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Right, and that gets back to the whole bullshit thing where having good skin is seen to be indicative of virtue.

So true. My Personal Trainer on the British coast went on about how he NEVER needed lip balm cuz he was hydrating enough yada yada. I said "No, it's cuz you live by the sea, I notice IMMEDIATELY when I go inland, esp. in big cities." (And I've just moved inland and lo and behold, I need lip balm again. I told him this and he just ignored me, of course.)

Also, re alcohol. I was an alcoholic and did not notice any major improvement in my skin after I stopped drinking, nor when I started eating super-healthy a few years later. It really is super individual.
posted by ClarissaWAM at 12:29 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


When my brother did marketing analysis for cosmetics companies he had Stuff To Say about the industry. You are mostly buying marketing, scent, pretty packaging, promises, and hope. Wear sunscreen. Don't smoke. Keep your hands away from your face. Have good genes.

There used to be a lot more talk about the many ways advertising is really dishonest. I'm kind of amazed at the lack of consumer skepticism these days. Yes, I am entering geezerhood; what menopause does to your skin is not encouraging, sorry.
posted by theora55 at 12:31 PM on January 31, 2018 [9 favorites]


Also its like $17 a bottle for cosrx.
Is that cheap or expensive?!


For me, that would be pretty cheap... a 100ml bottle, only one pump's worth of product needed per application, I'd expect that to last me a couple of months if not longer. Everyone's mileage may vary; I have combination skin that's also dehydrated a little, but a person with dry skin might need more product.
posted by palomar at 12:36 PM on January 31, 2018


Well - someone up above said that it was $75 for snail slime, but really it is only 17 so I guess cheap?


Palomar you have got to try the aloe sunscreen!
posted by goneill at 12:36 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


OK! So for people who know more - I use aveeno gentle or aveeno acne foam facewash (depending on how tender or broken out it is), then I have 2 moisturizers (aveeno or neutrogena) one with SPF and one without. I also have a mild spot cream (and metrogel for roseacea which I'm weirdly scared of). Where do I go from here? My skin is stupid sensitive (i can only physically exfoliate around the hair line, purses regularly break out my neck, etc), the cystic acne is mostly under control (after some HUGE flair ups when i started paying attention to my skin - this was apparently the good kind of breaking out which i had to read about constantly to believe in it). It's flaking dry, but also greasy? I seem to have T-zone issues but that seems more roseacea based? I'm interested in masks and serums and snail goo, but nervous about where to start. I've almost picked up masks at Ulta or big box stores, but I'm not sure what is gentle enough to try out. Oh! I also tried oil cleansers in the beginning and they were an absolutely not but maybe I should try again now that things are more under control?

I need a "seriously, I'm a beginner and nervous but also wonder if my skin can be smooth to the touch" guide.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:38 PM on January 31, 2018


I didn't read this whole thread, but anyone who even glances through my history knows that I'm deep in Skincare Culture. For some people, it's a fun, it's a skill you develop, it's something you share, it's skincaretainment. And people (women, largely) who are involved in skincare culture are incredibly critical consumers, slippery and hard for brands to pin down.

And, I'm sorry, the original essay is hot flaming garbage for being so finger-waggingly nasty about skincare culture and the products its spawned. And, for the record? Chemical exfoliants are life changing.
posted by nerdfish at 12:41 PM on January 31, 2018 [20 favorites]


There IS consumer skepticism, that's the reason for all the community created resources. "This is worth it, this isn't, this is my face 10 days on the product, it seems to loose effectiveness after doing it x number of times, this is a perfect dupe, this is an imperfect dupe but will work for most people, this ingredient is the thing that irritating you, this ingredient is fine, I'm so sorry to say but this expensive product is super worth the hype, this product seems to work but all it does is destroy the acid mantle, lol this ad is such BS, etc." People aren't just watching ads between Grey's Anatomy and buying $500 skincare systems.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:41 PM on January 31, 2018 [21 favorites]


Yes, take care of your skin. Try out the fun treatments, pamper yourself! I tried one a couple weeks ago, a mud mask that smelled like a chocolate eclair. I'm not sure if it really did anything, but I smelled yummy, and it did no harm.

But be aware that a lot of these serums and lotions and potions aren't really selling skin care, they're selling fear.

Fear that not having the completion of a youth will make people see you as lesser, as tired, as ... old, and therefore not worthy to be outside in our society.

Some people have better skin than others, some people have genetic benefits you can never buy. The last few years both skincare and makeup companies have started selling 'high definition' makeup products, to up your selfie game and because our handheld cameras can see more pores than they used to.

Hollywood has uber-highdef makeup now, for the same reason.

So yes, take care of your skin, take care of you, but don't fall too hard for the industries that tell you that only youth is healthy and desirous.

(I'm not exempt from the fear, and have bought into a fair number of things. otoh, some of the chemistry and science coming out is pretty amazing)
posted by dreamling at 12:43 PM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


As for oil cleansing, I’ve found a combination of jojoba oil and almond oil to be effective, and dirt cheap. A 4oz bottle of jojoba is $8 at Trader Joe’s, and almond oil is even cheaper than that, and it lasts for months. It works really well for getting rid of makeup residue, clearing sebaceous filaments, and general pore-clearing. Just buy a set of cheap-ass washcloths because the oil will stain (or at least it stained my washcloths).

I bought this snail recovery gel that gets really good reviews, and as you can see, it’s pretty goddamn cheap. As I look at Amazon’s list of Mizon products, they’re all pretty inexpensive.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:44 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


I think less of the smug "let me tell you what you're REALLY doing when you buy anything, ever" would be so great.
posted by palomar at 12:45 PM on January 31, 2018 [17 favorites]


Re the "Babyfeet" thing, it reminds me of those pore cleansing strips that were a reasonably-big fad back in the 90s. They were sold on TV and IIRC you wet them, then pasted them on your face, let them sit there a while, and then you peeled them off and they were supposed to grab and pull all sorts of disgusting stuff out of your pores. Their TV commercials were absolutely geared towards that "so gross! I must dooo it" impulse that many of us (myself included) have, showing a veritable forest of clogged-pore-stuff that it was supposed to pull out of your face.

They never seemed to work for me, which was perhaps user error or perhaps indicative that they were a scam; a Westerner's version of those earwax-removal guys who work on the street in India.

Is there a skincare regimen that involves an Elmer's School Glue face mask that you can then peel off? Uh, asking for a friend.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:46 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! : I have sensitive/combination/oily skin and the two cleansers I like the most are the Lush aqua marina and Skin Laundry's Gentle Foaming Cleanser, which really seem to keep my skin clear and balanced more than any other ones I've tried (and I have tried VERY MANY). I also really like the LaNeige water sleeping mask for gentle overnight hydration.
posted by leesh at 12:47 PM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]


Kitteh - lots of us would be happy to ship to you!

I spent literally ten minutes googling every damn permutation of "vegan oil facial cleanser vegan cuts beauty box" to find that product and no luck. All I can remember is that the business also did baby products as well as adult facial care. It was not the Jessica Alba brand.
posted by Kitteh at 12:47 PM on January 31, 2018


Those pore strips totally work for some people. I had to stop bc of OCD stuff, but I LOVED them.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:49 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Kitteh -- was it Badger? They do a starter face care set that has something like what you're describing, and they do both adult and kids' products.
posted by halation at 12:52 PM on January 31, 2018


INESTBHT, have you tried fruit/veggie type masks? I have a friend with similar sounding activity, and she found that mixing about 1/3 cup of yogurt, and applying it like a thick mask, but not so thick it dripped off, and leaving it for 5-10 minutes before a cool rinse helped get the flaky/oil thing under control. Other things which feel kinda weird, but help: overcooked oatmeal, bentonite clay, chilled cucumbers and cucumber water. Essential oils you might want to try include chamomile, geranium, palma rosa, rosewood (Not brazilian), lavender and pettigraine. Light carrier oils include cherry, primrose and almond, but there are lots of others.

If your skin is so sensitive that purses can break you out, if you have fragrance sensitivities at all, many (all?) masks have fragrances, which may irritate your skin.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:52 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


I finally figured out a skincare regimen that works for me thanks to SkincareAddiction. I don't think it's ALL bullshit. I think a lot of it is bullshit, and what works for some people won't work for others, but finally finding that combo of products that makes your skin look better than it ever has...well, it's kind of a hallelujah moment. Sure, I'm playing into all the expectations that my appearance be perfect at all times, but I like having clear skin and god knows I've done worse in service of the patriarchy.

I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today!: flaking dry but also greasy is the WORST! I had it too. SkincareAddiction has me believing that my skin was dehydrated (not just dry), which I know sounds like bullshit and maybe it is, but adding a product with hyaluronic acid, which is supposed to be hydrating, and then an occlusive, which supposedly keeps the hydration locked in, at night worked for me. I use the Hada Labo lotion (really more like a toner in US-speak, available for ~$15 on Amazon for a reasonably-sized bottle) and then Aquaphor on my face at night (I know it sounds nuts) after my cleanser, toner, and chemical exfoliant. There are lots of options for products with HA though, so check out the forums (I know SkincareAddiction was blasted above, but the basic "these products are in this category, and here is how to use them" posts are pretty good)! These products should NOT cause purging, so if you react to them, they're not working for you. I also use a humidifier at night, which I've been doing since before this routine, and I think it helps my skin some (I use it mostly for my sinuses/throat).
posted by Ragini at 12:54 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


Is there a skincare regimen that involves an Elmer's School Glue face mask that you can then peel off? Uh, asking for a friend.

Queen Helene Grape Seed Peel Off Mask is super inexpensive and relatively gentle and benign. I don't know that it does anything (other Queen Helene products like the masks with bentonite clay are awesome), at least not for me, but it's cheap, fun, and doesn't exacerbate my bad stuff.
posted by phunniemee at 12:55 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


A brief Google foray tells me that the brands who sell $75 snail slime are also charging $75 for every other kind of cream. The bottom line is that you may go for the Lamborghini of skin care products if you really want to, but it’s not your only option by any stretch.

The Babyfoot thing is a chemical peel for your feet. It’s glycolic acid in a baggie, basically. You can use glycolic acid all over your body, if you wanted—on your face, chest back, hands, basically anywhere you want to get rid of dead dry skin.

Skincareaddiction makes my eyes roll out of my head every time someone trots out that absurd horsecrap about how St. Ives scrub magically accelerates the aging process via “microtears”. Talk about snake oil.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:56 PM on January 31, 2018


I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! oh man I saw this after I posted and BOY AM I WILLING TO RESPOND!

Flaking dry but also greasy skin sounds dehydrated and irritated to me. Ditch the Aveeno Acne cleanser - strong cleansers can fuck up your skin's pH and moisture barrier, and they don't stay on your skin long enough to really treat anything.

I also have dehydrated skin that's prone to oiliness, and what really helps is using a few very light moisturising layers. Wondering why people are wild about Korean and Japanese brands? Because they offer glorious light moisturising options that many western drugstore brands just don't. Hadalabo Lotion is incredible for oilier skin. Cosrx Snail Mucin Essence was mentioned up thread and can confirm it's absolute heaven on dehydrated, irritated skin. Both of these are watery products that you just pat into your skin.

If your skin is crazy sensitive it probably won't tolerate alcohol heavy Japanese sunscreens like Biore Watery Essence, so I can't provide a ton of help on this front, but you should use a standalone sunscreen every. Single. Day.

... and then you could try double cleansing to remove that sunscreen at the end of the day. You mentioned you tried an oil cleanser before, but if you incorporate a standalone sunscreen you might want to give it a shot again. Just apply oil cleanser on dry skin, massage it around, feel it dissolve a day's worth of sunscreen, makeup, dirt, sweat and grease, rinse, then cleanse again with your normal cleanser. Simple Cleansing Oil is cheap, good, and available everywhere.

If you want to deal with the little breakouts, try chemical exfoliants. Physical exfoliants are super irritating. The much-vaunted Cosrx AHAs and BHAs are very very gentle if you haven't used a chemical exfoliant before.

Sheet masks are a delightful silly treat. Never buy them in a store. Buy 'em in bulk online. Amazon will do. Innisfree are my favourite standard sheet mask and I keep them around for whenever I want to soak my face.
posted by nerdfish at 12:59 PM on January 31, 2018 [8 favorites]


OH! so far we've really focused on facial skin care, but thing I learned this last summer? Coffee scrubs for chub-rub thighs. It sounds nuts, I know! "It's so sensitive! Why would I rub grit there??" Start with just a little scrubbing (while making sure to keep all food type products out of close by orifices), then moisturize while still wet out of the bath/shower. Slowly start scrubbing more as it gets better. It really helped me not just be a sore, miserable, inflamed mess by September. I really like Black Orchid Beauty, small company, black woman owned & solely operated, good prices (yes I could do it for cheaper over time but I do not mind paying someone to do it for me), and great customer service. I recently picked up the whipped shea butter too and it is LUXURIOUS! I've been rubbing it on cat scratches and my freckled white girl chest V (and callouses on my feet along with the lotion that has pee in it bc it just works the best!).
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:00 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


ok ok, urea not pee, but it's more fun to call it pee lotion .
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:00 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


"Garnier Micellar Water in the pink bottle" is all I have to say on this subject.
posted by HotToddy at 1:01 PM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


Oh, I'll also add that that my routine has seen me through my final semester of grad school, a sticky NYC summer, a cold and dry winter, and my continued unemployment, so it's not like I'm living in some perfect climate with no pollution or stress.
posted by Ragini at 1:07 PM on January 31, 2018


I would also like to tell people about two things that sound like the snakiest snake oil ever, but are not.

1. Frownies

2. Facial exercises

Frownies are basically water-activated paper stickers that you stick on your face to treat/prevent dynamic wrinkles (the kind you get from moving your face). You wear them overnight while you sleep and then peel them off (bonus points for people who like to peel things off their face, though it doesn’t have a Biore strip effect). Over time, it helps you re-learn how to relax those muscles consciously.

Facial exercises do the same thing over time—they retrain your facial muscles to regain their full range of motion so your dynamic wrinkles fade/don’t form as strongly. I like the “Ageless If You Dare” program. The nice thing is that it’s a one-time cost and then once you know the routine, you can do it forever if you want.

I’m a habitual frowner, to the point where I was actually getting headaches from frowning so much, and I don’t like having “elevens” anyway (the vertical lines that form above your nose and between your eyebrows). Both of these things keep that to a minimum.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:12 PM on January 31, 2018 [12 favorites]


Then it’s on the consumer to do their research, which as someone else pointed out, has never been easier.

This is literally the exact opposite of the entire basis of our consumer-protection laws. "I can lie to you to sell you stuff and then it's on you to research and figure out if I'm lying" is also an ethically contemptible position.

I also object to the idea that being a woman who likes a product marketed to women means I’m trapped in a system.

No, being a woman, period, means you're trapped in a system. If you're not under the impression that you're stuck in a world where you're judged personally and professionally by your physical appearance in a system designed to control and discipline women (among others) and use that control to extract revenues from you...well....wait a few years, until you reach the age that no snail cream is going to be able to fully disguise. Attempts to ignore that system in discussions of makeup/skincare because it feels threatening to one's sense of agency is about as useful as ignoring the approaching hurricane in discussing whether one should take a little trip away from the coast. Is the pressure of this system the only reason women like makeup and skincare products? Of course not. Does the existence of this system mean women are required to reject makeup and skincare products? Also of course not. But the existence of this system is very very relevant to whether we let corporations selling these products lie to women who do not exist in a world of unconstrained choice.
posted by praemunire at 1:15 PM on January 31, 2018 [8 favorites]


Yeah. Also this deserves more attention:

And despite the scientific gestures of skincare companies, a Harvard Medical School newsletter once concluded that “routine skin care is a realm where there's little science to be found.” According to some dermatologists, many women can even skip daily moisturizer, the most basic skincare product; a 2016 study in the Indian Journal of Dermatology found that no one really knew what moisturizer even did. But we have come to see the pursuit of perfect skin through a rotating buffet of products as an empowering choice.

I was recently reading a whole bunch of dermatology papers and basically noticed that many authors have a conflict of interest, because they're trying to show their new technology (a laser, a cream) whose company they're affiliated with is effective. Meanwhile the fundamental papers, that try to answer "how does skin work"?, are very theoretical and biochemistry-heavy and practically useless for regular people. So not only is it that cosmetic companies exploit information asymmetry and use advertising propaganda to discourage consumers from being informed by science and from exercising/practicing evidence-based reasoning, but even the published, peer-reviewed material has to be carefully vetted if you personally are trying to investigate that. After the readings I felt like I had to write off the entire field in the sense that so much is still unknown, or not studied, or not replicated. The basic ideas like moisture being generally good for the skin (but not always, like for the type of scar I have), sun protection being good for the skin, don't do harsh things with it, and that looks like pretty much it in terms of actual knowable truth.
posted by polymodus at 1:19 PM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]


was it Badger? They do a starter face care set that has something like what you're describing, and they do both adult and kids' products.

It wasn't Badger, but god I wish it were for the amount of fruitless Googling this is causing me to do.
posted by Kitteh at 1:21 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


My skin was a horrorshow before moisturizer. I was told I should never ever use it because never put oil on an acne filled face. I used to cry because my skin would hurt so much after a shower. I would wake up with blood on my sheets from scratching my body (I drink an amazing amount of water - this isn't a dehydration thing). What do you know, moisturizing it regularly solved all of that. I also gotta say, the people who helped my personal skin the least? Dermatologists. People who have gotten me to this ok for the first time since puberty place? Women into skincare on the internet.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:24 PM on January 31, 2018 [18 favorites]


This is literally the exact opposite of the entire basis of our consumer-protection laws. "I can lie to you to sell you stuff and then it's on you to research and figure out if I'm lying" is also an ethically contemptible position.

As someone who works in marketing, I will happily inform you that this isn’t how marketing works. Companies are allowed a certain amount of leeway in making claims for their products, and the language they may use is quite specific. No health care product can make a medical claim that they can not verify, which is why you see “Not verified by the FDA” on things like herbal supplements. For makeup and skin care, companies cannot make claims that fall into the realm of medical treatment. They cannot say, “Will get rid of your wrinkles”. They CAN say, “Improved moisture by up to 10%” or “Increases cellular turnover” or whatever actual effect the active ingredients have.

If you're not under the impression that you're stuck in a world where you're judged personally and professionally by your physical appearance in a system designed to control and discipline women (among others) and use that control to extract revenues from you...well....wait a few years, until you reach the age that no snail cream is going to be able to fully disguise.

I said I was in my mid-40s, so you’re trying to teach the professor. That’s one of the reasons why I enjoy skin care as a hobby, to find cheap, yet effective products and treatments that do the same thing as the high-priced luxury items.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:26 PM on January 31, 2018 [12 favorites]


By the way, "flaky and dry but also mysteriously greasy," especially around the nose and/or eyebrows, may be straight-up seborrheic dermatitis, an actual medical condition treatable by anti-fungals and/or a cream called Elidel, a nonsteroid that modestly suppresses immune response locally. Took me years to figure that out.
posted by praemunire at 1:26 PM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


As someone who works in marketing, I will happily inform you that this isn’t how marketing works. Companies are allowed a certain amount of leeway in making claims for their products, and the language they may use is quite specific. No health care product can make a medical claim that they can not verify, which is why you see “Not verified by the FDA” on things like herbal supplements. For makeup and skin care, companies cannot make claims that fall into the realm of medical treatment. They cannot say, “Will get rid of your wrinkles”. They CAN say, “Improved moisture by up to 10%” or “Increases cellular turnover” or whatever actual effect the active ingredients have.

As someone who works in consumer protection, I will happily inform you that regulation of anything short of very specific medical claims is so light, and enforcement so minimal, that cosmetics marketing can get away with damn near anything short of literal explicit claims to actually cure disease.

I said I was in my mid-40s, so you’re trying to teach the professor. That’s one of the reasons why I enjoy skin care as a hobby, to find cheap, yet effective products and treatments that do the same thing as the high-priced luxury items.

You're in your mid-40s, and you don't think you are not already being judged more negatively as a result of aging? Okay. Give it a couple more years.
posted by praemunire at 1:31 PM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]


may be straight-up seborrheic dermatitis

*googles* OH! so that's why my scalp stopped hurting so much after a shower when I started using a conditioner with tea tree oil in it. Well, ok. I'll try the doctors again.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:31 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Of course, anything that’s in style goes out of style: looking fresh and dewy, the ubiquitous glow of today’s woman, is a phase like everything else. . . . In this vein, Glossier, whose inaugural collection was a paean to dewiness, sells a powder now. Such is the circle of life in a capitalist society.

Powder to powder, blot to blot.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 1:33 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Mod note: One comment deleted. We can do this without acting like other women in the discussion are stupid, come on.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:37 PM on January 31, 2018 [11 favorites]


*googles* OH! so that's why my scalp stopped hurting so much after a shower when I started using a conditioner with tea tree oil in it.

Something you might try if you can't see a doctor right away is Lotrimin Ultra, usually sold (delightfully) in the jock-itch-treatment area of your drugstore. (Ultra and regular are two different medications, and I find the former much more effective.) Seborrheic dermatitis is one of those problems that, like the cold, are so common and so obnoxious and so apparently not-that-complicated that it seems impossible that medical science hasn't conquered them yet, but there's definitely trial and error in treating it; you may have to try more than one anti-fungal. But that's one you can try without a prescription, if you want.
posted by praemunire at 1:39 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


The efficacy of consumer protections might be light in the US, at this particular time, but most of the major cosmetics companies are multinationals and not American companies, so in many cases they’re actually subject to stricter legal requirements. Nonetheless, there’s not a lot of interest in attracting lawsuits, to say nothing of the fact that the best marketing is by word of mouth and you get that if your product actually works.

None of this addresses the fact that product comparisons and reviews are a thing because people want to understand what they’re buying, whether it’s a face cream or a new car. It’s absurd to try to claim that companies are “lying” or “unethical” because their marketing materials don’t give a full download about a product. No marketing does! However, this does not prevent anyone from being an informed consumer, and finding out whatever they want about a product. The forum that I linked farther up the page has literally months of extremely detailed information and product reviews about specific products, skin care treatments, how specific ingredients work, people’s anecdotal reports on whether they do work, photos, even discussions on where the products are manufactured. And that’s only one of several very active skin care boards.

As for whether I’m judged negatively for aging or not, well—all the more reason for those face peels, huh?
posted by Autumnheart at 1:46 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


As for whether I’m judged negatively for aging or not, well—all the more reason for those face peels, huh?
I mean, that's great that you do face peels so you don't get judged as negatively for being a woman in your mid-40s, but it does suggest that this is not a totally neutral choice. When you put it that way, it's another tax on women, which the rest of us have to decide whether to pay or suffer the consequences.

(I say that as a woman in her mid-40s who doesn't do this stuff and hasn't, as far as I know, suffered any consequences. If people are denying me job opportunities based on my less-than-flawless skin, they are certainly not telling me.)
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:52 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


A lot of keeping nice skin as you age is heredity. I never wear foundation makeup and my skin care consists of washing my face with a non-soap cleanser, and some fairly cheap moisturizer with sun screen. It is hard for me to imagine skin care as a hobby, but everyone enjoys something different. I have very good mostly wrinkle-free skin for my age, early 70s. My father told me his mother, whom I did not know, had beautiful skin till the day she died, and she was poor, raised six kids and worked as a maid for wealthy people, so I am sure did very little with her skin except keep it clean. I think I was lucky to inherit her skin, that's all. I see nothing wrong with trying to make one's skin look and feel better, but personally would not spend a lot of money on skin care products.
posted by mermayd at 1:53 PM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]


Some of us play the skin care "scam" game because we don't want to hear any more comments about our skin; or deal with the pain of cystic acne; or get more stupid, unwanted advice from strangers

That's more or less the root of my personal problem with the skincare industry and culture, though - "just drink more water" is terrible and insulting from a stranger, but so is "have you tried this product? What about tea tree oil?"

I have pretty bad skin (as my father before me) and I'm absolutely sympathetic to anyone throwing shit at the wall skin-wise. And it's not exactly a mystery why women in particular feel like they need to put in work on that front. My S.O. is pretty into skin stuff and it's not like I go around telling her it's all bullshit - I've even picked added a couple things to my regime at her suggestion. But then as somebody with some personal experience with this things I don't think it's unfair for me to say I think 95 percent of it is bullshit and a lot of the stuff that does do something does something pretty marginal. Thus while I suppose a lot of these things are at least fairly physically harmless, this:

Then it’s on the consumer to do their research, which as someone else pointed out, has never been easier.

is not a statement that would fly if we were talking about most any other category of dubious products.

And while some parts of the culture around skincare might be helpful to people I don't see how a lot of it doesn't reinforce the idea that if you have skin problems it's because you're not trying hard enough to fix them, which I find pernicious.
posted by atoxyl at 2:03 PM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]


I see nothing wrong with trying to make one's skin look and feel better, but personally would not spend a lot of money on skin care products.

That is easy for someone with nice skin to say. People with nice skin don't pour over message boards and youtube videos and closely read all the ingredients and scour instagram looking for progress pictures of this or that system/product. As someone who has never had good skin (god I hate the words we use for this) I can tell you that there is stuff that costs a lot that works. I know that because I've seen other people with "bad" skin use these things and get better skin. It might seem ridiculous to the "just a little cleanser and spf and I'm good to go!" crowd but to say it doesn't work because you know good genes gave you good skin? You don't actually know. You just know good genes can give you good skin. WE KNOW THAT TOO. But we don't have good genes and we'd like to feel more comfortable, not get stared at, not get mocked, not get pulled into bosses offices as if we didn't know our face is "unacceptable." And also maybe just maybe in the process live out our very favorite pampering dreams, 15 minutes at a time.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:04 PM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]


I'm currently rocking a black charcoal peel-off mask, so we'll see how it goes in a few minutes.
posted by Kitteh at 2:06 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


I love beauty subscription boxes, and playing with the small samples that I get. I generally don't splurge and buy the full-size versions, since I have a small stockpile. I'll fill in the gaps with drugstore purchases when necessary. It's fun, and I like fancy things that smell good. The closest I've come to actual harm is when there was an eye cream that irritated my eyes, and a lip stain that I severely underestimated the staying power of.

Anyway, do I feel like I'm being sold snake oil? Or like a cog in some marketing ploy? Nah. Can we just let women spend money on what they want, and not give a shit? sheesh.

As long as it's been dropped in a few times, I need some Babyfoot advice:
I have really, really arched feet, and some pretty thick callouses (like, nearly the whole part of my foot that touches the ground (ball of foot and heel) is hardened skin of varying degrees) because of the arch -- I want to try Babyfoot, but I'm afraid that the skin left will be sensitive and painful to walk on. I've had this problem after enthusiastic pedicures (with the scary razor scrapy thing) , so I'm nervous to try a chemical version. Has anyone had issues with sensitivity after Babyfoot?
posted by Fig at 2:07 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


Hey I am all for stronger consumer protection laws and stronger marketing regulation for things that we ingest or put on our skin. I would LOVE if skincare lines had to be universally transparent and honest about their ingredients, how they were tested, and what benefits they show on what types of skin.

That's not what the original article was about at all, unless I gravely misread it.
posted by muddgirl at 2:09 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


Spoiler alert: That isn’t why I do face peels. I do them because I’m generally fascinated by the topic of anti-aging and skin care in general, and I use myself as a guinea pig because who else would I use?

It’s really weird for other people to make my skin care routine all about them and their politics. It literally has nothing to do with anyone else. Considering that the judgment of an individual’s personal appearance is, itself, entirely individual and totally subjective, it is impossible for anyone to claim that my choice is anything but neutral. I obviously have no way of knowing whether or why someone might have a positive or negative opinion of my appearance. Maybe they think my hairstyle is stupid, maybe they don’t like my choice in footwear, maybe they don’t like women who wear glasses, maybe they think I might be a certain way because I’m white. How would I ever know, and if *I* don’t know, certainly nobody else does.

Regardless, I will reiterate once again that this line of thinking continues to smack of telling women that they should be living solely to benefit others and never themselves. I live in a society. I cannot escape the fact that other people exist and have opinions. I am allowed to do things I enjoy, with my own time and money, to myself. If I didn’t tell you I gave myself face peels, you would literally never know the difference, so you’re only determining the value of these activities based on their social value to the populace at large. When will anyone ever allow women to just like something without judging whether it improves their value to society?
posted by Autumnheart at 2:12 PM on January 31, 2018 [11 favorites]


wait so doesn't the baby foot thing make you immediately prone to blisters as soon as your calluses are gone?

also the only correct response to being told you have nice skin is a big creepy smile and "thanks, i grew it myself!"
posted by poffin boffin at 2:21 PM on January 31, 2018 [24 favorites]


My husband walked in on me taking off the charcoal mask and said, "Oh my god, that looks so satisfying."
posted by Kitteh at 2:23 PM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]


I have really, really arched feet, and some pretty thick callouses (like, nearly the whole part of my foot that touches the ground (ball of foot and heel) is hardened skin of varying degrees) because of the arch -- I want to try Babyfoot, but I'm afraid that the skin left will be sensitive and painful to walk on.

Babyfoot is quite a mild peel, and especially if the contact areas of your feet are heavily calloused, then my armchair speculation is that, at best, you could expect those areas to be more like the arch of your foot post-peel. I’ve got gnarly hobbit feet too and Babyfoot did not make any part of my foot sensitive. Plus, it takes a couple days for the peeling to start, and up to 2 weeks for it to stop, so it’s not like you rinse it off and now you’re The Little Mermaid (HC Andersen edition). Your feet will be almost exactly the same when you take the bags off your feet, and will gradually soften over a period of days.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:24 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


what if miscreants steal my shed foot flesh to create an evil army of homunculi
posted by poffin boffin at 2:26 PM on January 31, 2018 [19 favorites]


No chemical or wax peel on my feet has hurt near as much as the cheese grater during pedicures. I am still healing my feet from last time (my feet are soft enough that I usually just get the scrubby rectangle thing).
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:26 PM on January 31, 2018


It’s really weird for other people to make my skin care routine all about them and their politics. It literally has nothing to do with anyone else. Considering that the judgment of an individual’s personal appearance is, itself, entirely individual and totally subjective, it is impossible for anyone to claim that my choice is anything but neutral.

Well. The personal is political, and all that. I think it's possible for two things to exist simultaneously: 1) much of the skincare and beauty industry plays right into The Patriarchy and women being made to feel bad about themselves, and 2) many women, me included, find value in it or enjoy it to some extent. The choices we make are NOT neutral, but like, some of the things we do and enjoy are problematic, and imo these particular choices are not necessarily The Cause Of All Oppression.
posted by Ragini at 2:34 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


I'm not gonna diss anyone who loves the ritual of nicely scented gloops and glops. I like nice soap, myself, and love bath bombs and other such fripperies.

But I loathe the skin care industry.

Specifically, I despise the wild-assed claims of "take YEARS off your face" and "restore that youthful glow".

There's a special place in hell for purveyors of that sort of horseshit. It broke my heart every day to hear 80 year-old ladies sobbing because this or that "miracle serum" at $100 a pop didn't make them look like they were 20 again. HSN is a goddamned menace.
posted by MissySedai at 2:35 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


Japanese sunscreen, on the other hand, is totally my thing, because it's amazing. I don't think it's very good for my skin: the secret ingredient is alcohol.


Rohto Skin Aqua Moisture Milk SPF50 PA++++ does not have alcohol!
posted by oneirodynia at 2:35 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


When will anyone ever allow women to just like something without judging whether it improves their value to society?

Women also aren't allowed to *dislike* things without being judged, which I think accounts for some of the tension in the thread. I understand it's shitty to feel like people's objections to skincare culture are directed at you. But the commercial drone of skincare culture honestly can be exhausting and creepy for those who don't really want to participate in it. 'Skincare is love!' 'Skincare is self-care!' are things that can totally be true for individuals, but a lot of media, especially media targeted to women/femme people/lgbtq people, is inescapably filled with pieces extolling the importance of skincare for happiness and wellness and being-a-whole-person-ness, lately. It's easy to feel alienated or like you're clearly doing-it-wrong if skincare doesn't appeal to you, or if you lack the resources (money, time, energy) to get as Into It as the culture makes it seem you should be.

It's becoming another social requirement, the way that makeup is -- yet somehow worse? This has happened with makeup, too. Now, you're not just socially required to do it so people don't judge your appearance, you have to *like* doing it, too; you're obliged to perform the action *and* express the inner peace and pleasure and sense of empowerment it gives you, whether or not that's something you feel. So it's easy to feel resentment, and to want an occasional media piece that says 'yes some of this is bullshit and you shouldn't have to do it,' and apparently it's hard to express that resentment without sounding judgmental.
posted by halation at 2:36 PM on January 31, 2018 [18 favorites]


Well, if the choice is that women can either feel bad about themselves, or feel bad about feeling good about themselves, then fuck it.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:37 PM on January 31, 2018 [12 favorites]


I don't think anyone should feel bad about themselves, except the media/marketing complex.
posted by halation at 2:39 PM on January 31, 2018


Do you feel like the first article solely targeted media and marketing?
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:41 PM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]


Oh man. I am 40 and look it. I have wrinkles, age spots, a mustache (I am a cis female), chin hair, huge pores, a beginner neck droop and huge pores. Also I have a lot of grey hair.

They still let me walk around out in the world and do stuff
posted by TheClonusHorror at 2:42 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


I think the first article came out of said complex and was designed to drive clicks by pissing off people who are into skincare, which is what it did, and to spawn hundreds of response pieces encouraging people to share their skincare routines, which it also did. That sharing is authentic, but ends up being excellent marketing, which is what makes all of this exhausting and sucky.
posted by halation at 2:44 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


That seems to promote the conclusion that it’s important to be an informed consumer, then. If you know what works, then it will be easier to interpret the marketing and to know which products are worth your time and money.

My skin care routine is basically Cetaphil daily wash in the morning (optional, sometimes I just rinse with water and a washcloth). Then in the evening, I use Target liquid makeup remover, then jojoba/almond oil cleansing for 3 minutes, then a warm washcloth to steam for a minute and then wipe everything off. After that, snail serum, then a carrier oil (jojoba again, or argan oil), then zit cream, then Frownies. I have a glycolic/hyaluronic serum that I really like and will sometimes use that before the snail serum.

Ideally I would do a glycolic peel once a month but I’ve been a slacker. Copper peptides are very effective for me personally in boosting the efficacy of a peel—it significantly improves healing time and overall results compared to not using it with a peel. (Peels still work really well if you don’t use copper peptide, but for me it’s the difference between “Sweet!” And “Wow!”) I do a series of TCA every couple years. They’re pretty intense so they’re not a regular thing.

If I would remember, I would do the facial exercises in the morning before I hit the shower, but I keep forgetting. They take about 20 minutes for the whole routine, but you can do a “split” where you do half every other day that works fine.

So, not a lot of products, and the ones I use are targeted mainly toward exfoliation, zit prevention, collagen production and cellular renewal.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:48 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Weird, I thought the exhausting and sucky parts were being told to meditate and have good genes if you don't want people to literally recoil or suggest they'll fire you if you don't fix "the problem." Or that since I decided to go ahead and enjoy not having a severely painful face that I'm forcing other people to buy snail goo. We're all just trying to get through our days and none of us are setting up the marketing or regulations and those things aren't unique to skincare or other things women tend to get more into than men.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:50 PM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


I'm very glad I don't know if they do Babyfoot in bloke size, 'cos I'd likely lose a couple of shoe sizes in the process.
posted by scruss at 2:50 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


The Babyfoot plastic bags are the size of small trash bags, so try it and report back. Better yet, do it on only one foot and then take pictures.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:52 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


Oh man. I am 40 and look it. I have wrinkles, age spots, a mustache (I am a cis female), chin hair, huge pores, a beginner neck droop and huge pores. Also I have a lot of grey hair. They still let me walk around out in the world and do stuff

That's great. I have a lot of those things too. But my skin no longer: itches, hurts, burns, blisters, peels, cracks, bleeds, erupts in massive sores. I was always allowed to walk around out in the world, but I didn't actually ever want to get out of bed, so like. Yeah.

Man I'm super glad I didn't see this thread earlier or I'd have killed my whole day yelling. I think people who have always had socially-approved acne-free even-toned skin legit can't wrap their minds around the idea of what "make your skin look better" means to the rest of us.

Look, I appreciate that a lot of folks have found skincare regimens to be pointless or damaging or what have you. So did I! For years! I used things that seemed "correct" based on some random-ass magazine quiz I probably took in 1997 and yeah, guess what, that was not super-effective.

I also appreciate that in a just world I would not feel obligated to be a walking Instagram Filter, especially not in middle age. Word on that, 100%, fuck the acne stigma, fuck the wrinkle stigma, fuck 'em sideways.

But the fact remains that a moderately-intensive, not-very-costly skincare regimen has legit changed my actual daily life for the better in several quantifiable ways, and you will pry it from my smooth, dead hands, and yes you should definitely do Babyfoot, it's the closest thing to peeling off Elmer's glue you can get.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:52 PM on January 31, 2018 [20 favorites]


They also make a Baby Foot for men that goes up to size 14 (I wonder if the real difference is mint instead of lavender).
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:54 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


What’s also annoying is when people compliment you on your skin and then when you’re like, “Thanks! I use these products and do this stuff!” and then they’re all “Oh, I don’t bother with any of that, none of it works.”

🤨
posted by Autumnheart at 2:57 PM on January 31, 2018 [9 favorites]


Babyfoot was weirdly fun, if you decide to do it make sure to soak your feet for a good long while before you stick them in the plastic baggies. It helps the solution work a little better. And note that you won't see peeling immediately, it takes a couple of days for your skin to start sloughing off. If you've got a pair of roomy old socks, throw those on over the application baggies. Basically, turn the experience into a little bit of a spa day for your ankles on down to your toes. Have a nice snack! Maybe watch a movie!
posted by palomar at 2:58 PM on January 31, 2018


the fun side effect of severe chronic migraine for many years is that i've slept with an ice pack secured by soft elastic band pouch to my forehead for like 12 years now. i do not have a single line on my forehead and people have been accusing me of secretly botoxing it for years, which is ridiculous as i openly and unashamedly admit to the crow's foot botox i get.

so for a line-free forehead you should time travel back at least 10 years and develop an intense and horrifying chronic migraine, it's the One Simple Trick everyone's been looking for.

ironically i now get forehead botox as migraine prevention, and i passionately hate it because i can no longer give anyone the People's Eyebrow.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:59 PM on January 31, 2018 [16 favorites]


Not everyone wants to be an 'informed consumer,' though, is the point; the cultural obligation to consume is the entire problem with the model. I'm sorry that people suggested meditation or reacted in ways that made others feel shamed. Unsolicited advice is no good. But similarly, people feel bad when they are told that they have to have a skincare regime, haven't tried the right products and need to try [x], need to realise it can be so affordable / simple / amazing / life changing / important to finally find the perfect skincare regime, must not care about themselves because they don't have a regime, and are shaming or hating on others when they finally get tired of the whole idea of regimes. I don't even seek this stuff out and I still feel like I'm being told this at least three times a day, in various media. Annoyance at that pressure isn't the same as trying to claw people's snail extract away from them.
posted by halation at 2:59 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


If I don't put moisturizer on my face rwice a day, the skin gets red and flaky. I also need it on my hands every time they're washed or my fingers turn to sandpaper. In the winter I end up putting Chapstik on my fingertips.

But the moisturizer has to be the plainest, simplest, most unscented stuff I can get. I might experiment with seruns or eye creams or whatever, but they're all so heavily perfumed I can't breathe around them. I don't need my face to smell like a French whorehouse. What level of reeking are these products, that the manufacturers have to cover it up with artificial pong?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:59 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Wait... it peels off gradually? For DAYS? I thought your whole footskin fell off in one horrifying piece! What, do you find big moist heaps of footsluff in your shoes at the end of the day for a week or two? >gack!< >ulp!< Okay. I have to get it.

I have the Family Neck. I've known it was coming all my life, from looking at my grandmother and my aunts. Sure enough. Here it is.

What the FAAAH! Aagh, I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today!, I hate your boooooss! So much! What kind of monster would you have to be to tell somebody that crap? I'm sorry. I can tell from your comments here and elsewhere that your face is fantastic and your boss is a mealworm. I'm sorry your skin is trying to drive you crazy. I hope the problem turns out to be sebhoritic whatsit and you get rid of it and are liberated. As someone who used to get horrifying supurating poison ivy rashes every summer and then have to try to survive gradeschool, I know that to have things wrong with your skin is more than sufficient suffering. You don't need people being monsters to you to boot.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:00 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


and are shaming or hating on others when they finally get tired of the whole idea of regimes

It's fine for someone to dislike the idea of a skincare regime. It actually is shaming and hating on me to tell me I'm not smart enough to realize I'm being sold a bill of goods because I like having a skincare regime. Attacking a person's intelligence isn't exactly a friendly overture, I'm sure you'd agree.
posted by palomar at 3:01 PM on January 31, 2018 [12 favorites]


If someone doesn’t want to be an informed consumer about skincare products, then they don’t exactly have a basis for lecturing others on whether skincare products work, and should stay quiet on the subject.
posted by Autumnheart at 3:01 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


The personal is political, and all that.
For what it's worth, that slogan was supposed to mean that women's personal struggles are rooted in power relations, rather than being individual problems with individual solutions. It was never intended to mean that it's good political activism to judge other women's personal lives. What's political is the context in which we live our lives and make our choices, not necessarily the substance of those choices.
I think people who have always had socially-approved acne-free even-toned skin legit can't wrap their minds around the idea of what "make your skin look better" means to the rest of us.
I would be really surprised if the difference between the skin-care crowd and the non-skin-care crowd was the quality of people's skin. I bet it's mostly geography and income level, to be honest.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:03 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


anyway thanks to this thread i'm going to put baby extract onto my feet, made from real babies.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:06 PM on January 31, 2018 [19 favorites]


Also, is this an appropriate place to mention that if I scaled back my daily water consumption to what people always recommend ("at LEAST x ounces!!") I would be super parched and get a terrible headache and shrivel up like a desiccated sponge.

Every time I hear someone telling me to drink more water they're always telling me to drink less than what I normally drink in a day and it's just so damn wearying.
posted by phunniemee at 3:06 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


I'm in Arkansas, raised well below the poverty line and have just barely clawed into super lower middle class. How does that work with your geography & income assumptions. My skin has been a problem partially because it was so easy to brush me off as a dirty unconcerned poors who didn't know how gross it looked to other people. Because that's my problem.

I think you'll find a lot of formerly or still poor women get into skincare for all sorts of reasons up to and including we're allowed to feel good about ourselves too.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:06 PM on January 31, 2018 [14 favorites]


And no, you don't have to get into skincare to feel good about yourself, but why is it so insulting to people that it makes me feel better? The option that is acceptable seems to be "have perfect skin, do literally nothing to maintain it, and always look like you're wearing a no-makeup-makeup-look but never admit that's actually about 10 different products."
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:09 PM on January 31, 2018 [14 favorites]


Every time I hear someone telling me to drink more water they're always telling me to drink less than what I normally drink in a day and it's just so damn wearying.

YES SAME

i drink over a gallon a day, stop telling me to drink more, i am tired of peeing

no i don't have diabetes, stop telling me i drink too much water and should see a doctor
posted by poffin boffin at 3:10 PM on January 31, 2018 [8 favorites]


I would be really surprised if the difference between the skin-care crowd and the non-skin-care crowd was the quality of people's skin. I bet it's mostly geography and income level, to be honest.

I mean I was specifically referring to the number of people in this thread who are like, "I look super awesome! My whole family looks super awesome. I can't imagine spending money on skincare" or the folks who are like "well I have no acne or any other skin condition but I am aging naturally, why does anyone care about this."

It's kind of....like....obviously a thing that is happening? Right here? In this actual conversation?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:10 PM on January 31, 2018 [9 favorites]


I would speculate that it is about the quality of one’s skin, because genetics and environment have such an individual effect on people. Sure, people age a lot faster in Florida than they do in Minnesota, but acne knows no borders. Otherwise everyone would just move to the magical place where zits don’t happen and call it a day.

And many effective products are very cost-effective. The majority of the stuff I mentioned costs a few bucks a month.
posted by Autumnheart at 3:12 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


For all the people lucky enough to feel fine after just splashing their face with some water and throwing on something with SPF, CONGRATS. You've been genetically blessed. I'm happy for you that you don't have to care about your skin or throw money at it. That is absolutely not the case for a lot of the rest of us. It's physically uncomfortable for me to not put on like two layers of moisturizer. It's the same for my mom, so I presume this is some genetic, this is just how our skin is kind of nonsense. I'm into skincare so I can avoid the discomfort of having simultaneously dry, itchy, burning skin and oily skin, and hey! I have achieved that for the most part! (Still fiddling with the ideal AHA/BHA/azelaic acid routine.)

I'd like that mythical poreless, even skintone without redness or old acne scars, sure, but I'll settle for skin that at least feels good: moisturized, soft, mostly even-textured, not breaking out. All the products I used to achieve that are unscented or scented-to-be-unscented stuff, priced at less than $35, and it's all stuff I have reasonable confidence in, or at least, don't mind spending a few bucks on for the sake of whatever placebo effect/soothing routine it imparts.
posted by yasaman at 3:12 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


society: women of all ages must look as close to physically flawless at all times no matter what the cost!
women: i spend a lot of money on skincare products and i feel okay about that and the results i get from those products
society: SHAAAAME SHAME THE WITCH
posted by poffin boffin at 3:16 PM on January 31, 2018 [37 favorites]


You know what? This thread is stressing me out and making me think I should worry about aspects of my appearance that I don't currently worry about, so I think I'm out. But as a data point, this discussion is making me worry that I have embarrassing skin and just haven't focused on it, which makes me think that maybe this whole thing is not entirely benign.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:16 PM on January 31, 2018 [16 favorites]


The option that is acceptable seems to be "have perfect skin, do literally nothing to maintain it, and always look like you're wearing a no-makeup-makeup-look but never admit that's actually about 10 different products."

This is actually why I fucking love the fact that Skincare TM has become an internet obsession. Fuck the shame I grew up with, where if someone caught you with a tube of benzoyl peroxide it was the worst thing imaginable. Fuck all non-ironic permutations of "I Woke Up Like This" philosophy (sorry Beyoncé...I know you probably did wake up like that).

IF in our garbage fire world women are going to be held to high standards of public presentation then I am 100% in support of making that effort visible and acknowledged. Just for the record, I also do not eat literally whatever I want all the time, and I exercise daily, and no my hair does not naturally do that thing.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:17 PM on January 31, 2018 [11 favorites]


If you’re totally cool with the way you look, then your skin care regimen is obviously working. Even if it’s just “Yep, I have skin” before getting dressed in the morning. No need to worry.
posted by Autumnheart at 3:18 PM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]


So my skin is ok mostly but my husband has weird skin that, if he's scratched, shows lines for days, even though it doesn't hurt. He also has some severe acne. I wonder if any of this magic stuff would help.

My opinion on skin stuff is shaped by the fact that my mom went to her dermatologist for Retin A "for her wrinkles" but actually for my acne, because for some stupid reason one was cheaper than the other. It made my life much better.

I'm thinking my kiddo is going to need some similar help as puberty descends.

I'm admittedly fascinated by this picture of hordes of women taking dermatological testing into their own hands after being failed by medicine.
posted by emjaybee at 3:24 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


I always took Beyonce's "I woke up like this" to mean "it's none of your fucking business and I'm allowed to feel good about myself." One of the repeated lines is We flawless, ladies tell 'em which I take as support of the idea that maybe women are doing ok and not everything we do is wrong. I would be SHOCKED if she didn't have a very specific skincare routine. Another part of this, I think is also a reaction to media telling her that her look is too contrived, too put together, that she's not black enough, that she's trying to be a blonde white popstar, etc. She's saying "Nope, I woke up like this, next question." She's not even entertaining the discussion.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:25 PM on January 31, 2018 [14 favorites]


Not even if you're cool with the way you look, if you're cool with the way your skin feels, you're probably fine. Ignore all this! It's not relevant to you! But does your skin feel tight and dry? Does it itch? Do you break out? Well, skincare can address some of those things. Like, no one other than mean weirdos scoffs at people who slather their dry hands in lotion. A lot of people need to slather their hands and feet in heavy-duty lotion so that their skin doesn't crack or peel or even bleed, or because their job involves tasks that dry their skin out. It's the same deal with the skin on the rest of your body. If something feels unpleasant or uncomfortable, you can take some steps to redress it. If it doesn't, continue on your merry way.
posted by yasaman at 3:25 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


this discussion is making me worry that I have embarrassing skin and just haven't focused on it, which makes me think that maybe this whole thing is not entirely benign.

Do you have the same reaction to discussions about clothing, food, exercise, car ownership, home ownership, parenting, pets, college educations, and so on? What about the thread where everyone talked about what kind of purse they carry?
posted by palomar at 3:26 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


My opinion on skin stuff is shaped by the fact that my mom went to her dermatologist for Retin A "for her wrinkles" but actually for my acne, because for some stupid reason one was cheaper than the other.

heh, i had the opposite: insurance refused to pay for my retin-a RX because i was almost thirty and *clearly* i was lying and wanted it for wrinkles and was working a scam with my doc, because obviously only teenagers get acne :/
posted by halation at 3:27 PM on January 31, 2018


Like... I really don't think any of us care if you don't want a skincare regimen. I don't know you, I literally could not care less what you do or do not put on your face, and the fact that I sometimes like to talk about that with other people doesn't change my feelings about anything you do. I only care if you try to tell me I'm stupid or frivolous for caring about a thing that you've made clear you don't care about.
posted by palomar at 3:28 PM on January 31, 2018 [16 favorites]


but my husband has weird skin that, if he's scratched, shows lines for days, even though it doesn't hurt.

Ooh! That is dermatographia (skin writing) and it’s related to hives! I have the same thing, but milder. One thing you can take to make it less of an issue is Zyrtec.

Probably not related to the severe acne but IANAMD.

One of the reasons I even got into skin care in the first place is because I had read an article about Retinol and read about how it was formulated for anti-aging, but could also be effective for acne, from which I suffered persistently.

Retinol, Retin-A and Accutane are all derivatives of Vitamin A.
posted by Autumnheart at 3:36 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


poffin boffin is this where you tell us about botox for crow's feet, please say yes
posted by stellaluna at 3:39 PM on January 31, 2018


As someone who has dealt with painful blemishes for thirty-five fucking years despite going through Accutane treatment, I'm tired of being told that I'm shallow or ignorant or easily influenced for wanting my skin to be in clearer, less-painful condition.

All of you who have "good genes" (excuse me while I make a spitting noise, because that's distastefully close to eugenics talk) and can do the Cetaphil-plus-suncreen-I-look-fine thing, that's awesome. Please recognize that you do not know the first thing about dealing with skin problems that result in physical pain, social disapprobation, and psychological difficulty.

If you really enjoy tut-tutting over the poor silly women who've gotten brainwashed into worrying unnecessarily about wrinkles, maybe try to do that somewhere that the rest of us can't hear it.
posted by Lexica at 3:43 PM on January 31, 2018 [17 favorites]


idk? it's great? it's 2-3 tiny shots next to each eye which i get about every 9 months or so. i have neglected it for the past 2 years because of other health reasons and cost, and it definitely shows, which i am kind of shruggo about, also due to the aforementioned health reasons.

people always talk about botox giving you creepy frozen face expressions and the side eye shots doesn't do that at all, it just prevents the side eye skin from wrinkling when you squint or smile. the forehead shots are what cause expressionlessness, and i dislike it immensely.

however don't get a botox brow lift unless you want to look like a fiendish bird of prey
posted by poffin boffin at 3:46 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


Where do I put the botox if I have one of those round dumpy friendly faces but really actually want resting bitch face so people don't talk to me on transit? Is this an option?
posted by phunniemee at 3:52 PM on January 31, 2018 [14 favorites]


in other ppl's faces so they can't open their mouths and yap at you
posted by poffin boffin at 4:00 PM on January 31, 2018 [32 favorites]


I started getting botox in my 30s, just before defending my PhD dissertation, because I looked crazy haggard and everyone thought I was ill, which I probably was due to stress. All turned out well but I don't get botox anymore because I can't afford it every 3-4 months.
posted by waving at 4:17 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Retinol, Retin-A and Accutane are all derivatives of Vitamin A.

Retinoids are near the top of the list of skin products I do believe in (at least for acne) though the topical stuff doesn't seem like it can do that much for deep cystic acne and the downsides of Accutane (which works far better than anything) are well-known.
posted by atoxyl at 4:18 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


What about the thread where everyone talked about what kind of purse they carry?

we don't speak of that thread anymore
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:19 PM on January 31, 2018 [9 favorites]


I'm wading in as one of those women who occasionally buys a tube of lip balm and uses it maybe once a month for the next couple of years -- yeah, soap and water is fine at the end of the day if I've put on bug spray or sunscreen. Otherwise, no worries.
Yes, I have good genes. And I could care less about sometimes having acne as I stand in line, enjoying my senior discount. Age before beauty, folks.

What keeps me away from makeup and skincare routines is the risk of chemicals that later are found to be toxic. Like the decades that I used talcum powder on my body after a bath and to reduce chaffing -- you use it on a baby's butt, it should be safe, right? Not so much, as it turns out. Ovarian cancer, who knew?
I found another travel-size container in the pickup glove box the other day, looking for some electric tape.

I really hope my Olay Complete (spf 15) and my Neutrogena lip balm (spf 20) don't have something that will come back and bite me in the future.
posted by TrishaU at 4:30 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


I'm currently rocking a black charcoal peel-off mask, so we'll see how it goes in a few minutes.

My daughter in-law and I did those a couple days before she and Younger Monster got all hitched up. It felt much, much different from other masks I've used (I really like the ones that warm up, they just feel really nice), and when it was completely dry, it was very tingly. We both giggled and squealed pulling them off - fuckers held on TIGHT. But it did do a great job of pulling off all the dead skin and gave me a nice, smooth canvas for the full face of makeup Elder Monster put on me for the wedding. I rarely wear more than funky eye makeup, but for a special occasion, what the hell.

I can see myself doing it again sometime, it was pretty pleasant for a few days following.
posted by MissySedai at 4:31 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


They make Frownies for crow’s feet! I wonder if they would be effective against migraines. Not as effective as Botox, I’m sure, since it’s not a 24/7 effect like Botox, but for $15 a box it might be worth a ...shot. Sorry.
posted by Autumnheart at 4:35 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


phunniemee: Where do I put the botox if I have one of those round dumpy friendly faces but really actually want resting bitch face so people don't talk to me on transit? Is this an option?

This is the most 'it me' comment I've ever seen on metafilter. I call it resting beam face. It is not terrible...but it is not great.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 4:47 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


Okay, so what eye cream actually works for dark under eye circles?

Spackle, tinted to your skin tone.

I dunno. Elder Monster used high end concealer and foundation and shit on me, and the dark circles still peered through.
posted by MissySedai at 4:58 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


liquorice, I've had a really good experience with the transforming anti-aging eye cream from Makeup Artist's Choice. Best part? You can buy a sample size. It seems stiff in the package, but it softens up as soon as you touch it, and it soaks into the skin really quickly.

I'm also a fan of the Chai Tea Eye Cream from Whamisa by Glow Recipe, which is available at Target, but I can't speak to its ability to knock out dark undereye circles yet because I just started using it. I love the consistency, though, and that the tube has a really fine tip on it so the product comes out in a small squiggle that I can tap onto exactly the spot that needs it. And it smells nice, not super perfumey but clean, and the scent doesn't irritate my eyes.
posted by palomar at 4:58 PM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


Oh, and heads up about Makeup Artist's Choice: if you go there and decide to buy something, don't forget to enter the coupon code that's tucked away under the section labeled TODAY'S DEAL. It says you get 20% off of one item, but I've been ordering from them for two or three years now and using that code I actually get 20% off the entire order. They sell sample sizes of everything they make, and the sample size for most products is enough for multiple uses -- for the eye cream, I bought two samples first, and those lasted me for over a month. And their customer service folks will help you find the right products for you, if you email them with questions.
posted by palomar at 5:01 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


They also send some samples with your order, and if you’re on Facebook, follow them because they post coupon codes on there.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:08 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


For any Canadians who do want to dabble in K-skincare, I've discovered that the international beauty aisle of my local superstore has a wide range of very affordable sheets masks, including ones for hands and feet. I stopped in to grab cat food tonight and came home with a pack of $3.00 foot masks.
posted by peppermind at 5:15 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


Discount home goods stores are also a good place to find sheet masks if those are your jam -- in the US, Marshalls and TJ Maxx reportedly get sheet masks in from Taiwanese brands like My Scheming and My Beauty Diary. In Canada, I think TJ Maxx is TK Maxx? Anyway, check out places like that. In the states, if you've got an H Mart or a 99 Ranch Market near you, check out their personal care sections for sheet masks and a small to medium assortment of mid-level drugstore quality offerings to scope out.
posted by palomar at 5:21 PM on January 31, 2018


I wonder if they would be effective against migraines.

unless they physically deaden the nerves that cause pain then no they will not
posted by poffin boffin at 5:22 PM on January 31, 2018


Okay, they wouldn’t then. I didn’t know if it was a muscular thing or not.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:28 PM on January 31, 2018


For Canadians, here is Shiva's Delight, a local skincare and beauty maker--in fact, we bought our house from her because she needed more room to make her products--and she ships all over the country. I swear by her Mud bar for my winter face soap, her Everything Herbal balm for general face moisturizing, and I love love love her Autumn Rose face serum despite it being pricey. Also her rosehip clay mask is a thing of wonder.
posted by Kitteh at 5:30 PM on January 31, 2018


I may try the Babyfoot thing, although I suspect it is not equal to tackling the calluses on my feet. You know those spas that have little fish that nibble dead skin off your feet? I think they’d need the kind of piranhas that can skeletonize a cow in under a minute to get the calluses off my feet. I have high arches and like walking barefoot.
posted by Anne Neville at 5:31 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]


You’ll have really smooth, soft calluses.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:33 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Okay, so what eye cream actually works for dark under eye circles?

do you mean undereye concealer to cover them perfectly matched to the rest of your skin tone? or do you mean to make them go away forever? because while the former exists, the latter does not, as when all other methods fail they are usually just genetic.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:40 PM on January 31, 2018


On second read: the way I wrote my earlier comment may lead others to think that I've had medical issues with talcum powder. No, just abject horror that I put that stuff on my nearest and dearest without a surgeon general's warning on the label.
Carry on.
posted by TrishaU at 5:43 PM on January 31, 2018


If you like putting stuff on your skin, and that stuff isn’t causing problems, fine. If you’re spending money you don’t have on the stuff, that’s a problem. If you think the stuff is going to keep you from ever looking older, I suspect you’re going to be disappointed. If you’re judging other people who do not want to put the same stuff on their skin as you do, then you’re not a good person. Same goes if you judge people for having skin problems, or if you try to encourage people to spend more than they can afford on skincare stuff. And if you use skincare products and tan, then you’re just dumb.
posted by Anne Neville at 5:44 PM on January 31, 2018


anyway thanks to this thread i'm going to put baby extract onto my feet, made from real babies.

I'm just gonna stick my feet in two babies, Tauntaun-style.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:46 PM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]


Botox is used for treating migraines. I don’t think they inject it in the same place as they do for treating wrinkles, though.
posted by Anne Neville at 5:47 PM on January 31, 2018


I got yer baby extract RIGHT HERE! Babies marinate their bottoms in this stuff, and you know how smooth babies’ bottoms are! I’ll sell you some straight from the source, cheap...
posted by Anne Neville at 5:51 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Where do I put the botox if I have one of those round dumpy friendly faces but really actually want resting bitch face so people don't talk to me on transit? Is this an option?

Na, you don't want that. I have the type of mouth with the corners naturally turned down. When your 65, this gives you a natural resting bitch face. Then people will say shit like, "Smile, things can't be that bad!!" You can't win.
posted by BlueHorse at 5:53 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


I think they’d need the kind of piranhas that can skeletonize a cow in under a minute to get the calluses off my feet. I have high arches and like walking barefoot.

Anne, are you my long lost sister??
posted by BlueHorse at 5:54 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


I don’t think they inject it in the same place as they do for treating wrinkles, though.

my forehead is full of it and i can't make faces or raise my eyebrows. alas my pain mgmt doctor would not do my crow's feet with what was left in the syringe although i bet he would've if there hadn't been 2 junior doctors assisting.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:56 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]


I love crow's feet. It makes me happy to see them. Smile wrinkles are the best. It takes SO MANY smiles to make a wrinkle!
posted by aniola at 6:25 PM on January 31, 2018 [9 favorites]


I had painful and often ugly cystic acne on and off into my 30s. In fact, it got worse in my late 20s. Around age 33 I did Accutane. I'm male, so no pregnancy risk. I have zero horror stories about it other than you have to keep getting blood tests and my lips were really dry (lots of chap-stick). I think it was six weeks total?

It completely stopped the cystic acne. As in, afterwards: Zero cystic acne. And I'm 47 now.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 6:27 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Nicole Cliffe has a skincare letter she sends out and discusses skincare on her twitter quite a lot. I know she's talked about eye creams in discussions before. I know I've heard people talking about stuff that reduces this that or the other associated with them. They're not going to go away, but there are things to help. I'll poke around and see what I can find, but maybe do the same? I don't think hope is lost.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 6:43 PM on January 31, 2018


Clarins sells a spray that supposedly protects you against "artificial" electromagnetic waves. It shouldn't be legal to say that on a consumer product, but oh well.

It's reasonable to be more than a bit skeptical about high end products, but the fact that there are scams aplenty doesn't mean it's all a scam.
posted by aramaic at 6:50 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


The only time I really had acne was when I was on the Pill. My body does everything backwards.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:55 PM on January 31, 2018


The ordinary caffeine solution seriously got rid of the puffiness for me. I layer it under a more traditional eye cream. It won’t change the color of your dark circles but might make them less pronounced. And it costs $6.70.
posted by goneill at 7:38 PM on January 31, 2018


There’s a whole subsection in there for DIY where people are reverse-engineering products

I was looking up stuff like carbomer to add to sculpture plaster or paper mache when I found /r/DIYBeauty/ and chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/. It's eye-opening at lists of ingredients and realize in many cases one can just buy this stuff.
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:19 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


liquorice - I’ve been using this gel for about a week and I’m actually seeing some results. My eyes are definitely less puffy and the under-eye circles are a bit less dark.
posted by floweringjudas at 8:34 PM on January 31, 2018


What are wrinkles but the dried-up beds of old smiles?

- Dame Edna
posted by emf at 8:40 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]


I just came off that thread about scientists finding strange uses for everyday things, and I initially thought we were talking about injecting botox into the feet of crows.
posted by clawsoon at 8:57 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


Do you like looking at photos of strangers displaying their feet as strips of epidermis peel off like a snake shedding its skin? Then you will love the technicolor horror show that is the Amazon Baby Foot review page.
posted by roger ackroyd at 9:22 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


Ha, I love that this thread is happening on the same day that I received one of my monthly k-beauty subscription boxes. I love them because there's so much beauty options out there, but I' m easily overwhelmed by choice, so this allows me to dabble risk-free (okay, there's the cost of the subscription, but I promise you I've wasted money on worse ways than caring for my skin). Sometimes I find gems that I'll want to buy again (have yet to run out, however, because with a quality product, a little goes a long way). Of course, there's always at least one item in a box where I'm like "nope, never again." But it's still fun to try.

I actually really love that Korean beauty is now so popular since it means those products are easier to access. I've been using basic Korean skincare for years -- it's what works best for my somewhat sensitive skin, after many failed attempts of trying all sorts of cheap-to-midrange options from Ulta and Target (the exception being Aveeno daily facial moisturizer with spf -- I tried the Target brand that's supposedly the same but it didn't feel the same or more importantly smell the same, so yes I will pay a few dollars more for a better scent, thankyouverymuch). Also, not all Korean skincare is the ridiculously expensive kind, and one of the reasons I became a convert was because it's relatively inexpensive for the quality.

So instead of flying to Korea with an empty suitcase and fighting my way through pushy saleswomen to insist I just need face wash, some face masks, and hand cream (OMG THE HAND CREAM, the savior of my cracked cuticles and hangnails that I've suffered with forever thanks to living in a dry climate), I can now find these items locally. Maybe a lot of of the k-beauty trend is hype, but it's working to my advantage.

I'm fortunate to have simple skincare needs at the moment -- other than the daily spf moisturizer, it's mostly just face wash, occasionally a face mask if I'm in the mood or have been going through a particularly stressful time that makes me extra haggard (both because it makes my skin feel amazing, and also because yay a bit of pampering to make me feel psychologically better), and the odd beauty box treasure that finds a home in my medicine cabinet. My skin isn't perfect or flawless, and I'm not on the hunt to have young skin forever, but I definitely notice a difference when I don't do my basic routine (like when I'm having a lazy weekend where I don't even change out of my pajamas).

I've only just got back into the habit of wearing makeup since I'm working in a more people-facing job instead of spending all my days around slobbery dogs who don't care what you look like provided you have treats and give cuddles. I hate the sensation of something on my face for an extended period of time (ugh, so many repeated failures to convince myself that this "completely lighweight" lipstick/gloss/stain will finally make me a lipstick convert, only to immediately want to remove it all as soon as I could), and it's a nightmare trying to find a decent foundation for my skin tone (very light olive), so I actually enjoy taking a little extra effort to care for my skin so then I don't have to cover it up with makeup -- instead I can just pop on some blush, focus on the eyes, and I'm good to go.
posted by paisley sheep at 10:03 PM on January 31, 2018 [5 favorites]


... I'm so glad my fellow Botox users popped up at the end of this thread. It's up there with haircuts and highlights in the trio of professional services I pay money for. I personally relish feeling like a science experiment when I get it done - I love repeatedly frowning into a mirror as the toxin slowly paralysed exactly one muscle between my eyebrows. Is it a politically neutral choice? Nope. Do fewer people ask me if I'm okay due to having a permascowl caused by a combination of grad school and poor eyesight? Yes. Is that worth £140 every six months? Absolutely.
posted by nerdfish at 12:37 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


So my skin is ok mostly but my husband has weird skin that, if he's scratched, shows lines for days, even though it doesn't hurt. He also has some severe acne. I wonder if any of this magic stuff would help.

That sounds like a hyperactive histamine reaction. I get the same thing (and also used to get hives near constantly as a teenager). What "helps" (is it really a problem?) is antihistamines or corticosteroids, not anything you apply to the skin externally.
posted by Dysk at 4:15 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


Also wow is this thread ever full of "don't judge people for their skin care or lack thereof ... you're an idiot if you smoke or tan".
posted by Dysk at 4:20 AM on February 1, 2018 [4 favorites]


Wow. IDGAF, my skin still keeps my guts on the inside so it works fine.
posted by adept256 at 4:42 AM on February 1, 2018


I don't understand the people who don't care coming in to let us know they don't care. Surely there's something else that could grab your interest on this site if this thread isn't doing it for you.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:54 AM on February 1, 2018 [14 favorites]


Also wow is this thread ever full of "don't judge people for their skin care or lack thereof ... you're an idiot if you smoke or tan".

Yeah, and there's quite a lot of "Skincare products are so unscientific! Just eat right!" but the evidence that sugar, dairy, or high-glycemic foods cause acne or make it worse seems equally as murky as the evidence for AHA or moisturization.

On the other thread topic, personally I love growing physically older and becoming invisible, since the people that ignore me are the kind of people I hate associating with. But I completely understand how other women (and men) don't want to be invisible to large swaths of the population. In other words, it's just not as simple as "You silly vain women who don't want to get ugly!" Wrinkles have real consequences, whether you like it or not.
posted by muddgirl at 6:04 AM on February 1, 2018 [7 favorites]


Wrinkles have real consequences, whether you like it or not.

This kind of assumes you weren't invisible to begin with. Can't lose privileges you never had.
posted by Dysk at 6:41 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


(OMG THE HAND CREAM, the savior of my cracked cuticles and hangnails that I've suffered with forever thanks to living in a dry climate)

Could you elaborate on this, paisley sheep (or anyone else)? My hands are so dry in the winter, and everything that I've tried has either not done much or had a really strong scent (I am really sensitive to perfume-y smells).
posted by ashirys at 6:44 AM on February 1, 2018 [3 favorites]


Wrinkles have real consequences, whether you like it or not.

This kind of assumes you weren't invisible to begin with. Can't lose privileges you never had.


Of course visibility is a spectrum and age intersects with other kinds of prejudice. Thanks for calling me out on this.
posted by muddgirl at 6:56 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


I’ve been invisible for most of my life, but that doesn’t mean I don’t care about what I see in the mirror. It’s not a contest to see who can invest the least in themselves. That kind of mentality is the same shit that drives people to go to work when they have the flu and to not require family leave. It’s actually okay to care about how you feel or look. People need to can it with the Calvinist bullshit.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:13 AM on February 1, 2018 [8 favorites]


I love crow's feet. It makes me happy to see them. Smile wrinkles are the best. It takes SO MANY smiles to make a wrinkle!

Me too. I think my crow's feet are cute! They do, however, occasionally cause eyeliner problems.

I really don't have to do much with my skin. I'm pale AF, and burn if I so much as think about sunlight, so I wear SPF Thermonuclear War because sunburn hurts. Plain water wash unless I'm taking off makeup. I drink my water, but I also drink a pot of coffee a day, and at a minimum 2 glasses of wine with dinner every day. If I have to go outside in the winter, I slap on some moisturizer. *shrug* I'm fat, and I apparently have decent genes, so my skin is largely not bothersome.

My daughter in-law, OTOH, is constantly fighting with her skin. Between medication side effects, winter in OH sucking, and the stress of working while a full-time student, she's always fussing at it.

I'm all in favor of people doing whatever makes them feel better. Some people need a ton of moisturizer. Some people need something to clear up their eczema or acne. Some people don't need anything but a good night's sleep. Every person is different. Do what makes your face happy!

But also, do me a favor, and any time some manufacturer claims they're selling you eternal youth and porcelain perfection? Call bullshit on them. They've got a vested interest in making people feel bad about the inevitability of getting older. Vultures, the lot of 'em.
posted by MissySedai at 7:18 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


I don't know about OMG the Hand Cream at the K beauty stores (the one I have is fine. I like that it's in a tin and not runny and not overly scented, but it's not special). The Lush lemony flutter and the charity pot, though, I think those are amazing. My mom is doing ceramics right now and the skin on her hands is constantly splitting--she's been using the charity pot and little plastic gloves when out of the studio. It seems to help.
posted by crush at 7:31 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


Hand care, because I really should not dig out the last handfuls of mix in the concrete or drywall compound buckets. And I crochet, which is snag city with rough fingertips.
Shea Nation bar soap, and Working Hands to rub into the cuticles are my go-tos. I use them as needed.
Occasionally the Working Hands is used on my feet after a shower. There is a different product, but I use what I have.
posted by TrishaU at 7:38 AM on February 1, 2018


Semi related: I haven't washed my (male) hair in 3 years. It's really great and I get compliments.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:54 AM on February 1, 2018


Do you like looking at photos of strangers displaying their feet as strips of epidermis peel off like a snake shedding its skin? Then you will love the technicolor horror show that is the Amazon Baby Foot review page.

Man, people get so touchy about foot stuff. I once bought the PedEgg -- you know, that thing you saw on the infomercials that was basically a microplane grater placed into the bottom of an egg-shaped plastic thingy -- and it was awesome. But everyone got all upset when I described the tablespoon or so of heel dust that accumulated in the egg thingy after you grated your feet. Just innocent little heel dust! All of which is a long way of saying that I cannot wait to try BabyFoot.
posted by holborne at 8:00 AM on February 1, 2018


I've been really happy with the Lush Lemony Flutter for my awful winter hands, too. My hangnail situation has been so desperate the last month or so that I decided to see if I could do any better, so I got some Deborah Lippman cuticle kit thing from Sephora and have been making a concerted effort to actually take care of my nail/cuticle/hangnail situation regularly, and I'm really happy with it. My hands look and feel nice again finally, after like six weeks of them catching and ripping on every goddamn thing, and it's great. That said, I have no reason to think that the Lippman stuff is particularly magical; it may just be the regular effort invested that I wasn't doing before. But FWIW, it seems to be good stuff that gets the job done, although possibly not any better than whatever cuticle remover/oil/cream combo you can get at the local CVS.
posted by Stacey at 8:20 AM on February 1, 2018


I love skincare. Looooooooove it. Obsessed. We all have our vices; if it's OK to buy a thousand iPhones or sneakers, why not invest a little cash in the ONE FACE you have? Sheet masks? Buy 'em by the truckload. BabyFoot? Twice. Thanks to the recommendations of Mefites, I've started buying my own peels (lactic acid and I have TCA on deck) on MakeupsArtistChoice and it is awesome even when I go too hard and end up burning my face. Everything heals eventually!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:20 AM on February 1, 2018 [3 favorites]


"It’s not a contest to see who can invest the least in themselves."
The more I "invested," the worse I felt. And incidentally the worse I looked. When I stopped "investing," my face no longer felt like it was going to crack open. It stopped itching, stopped flaking, stopped being inflamed, and stopped breaking out.

"That kind of mentality is the same shit that drives people to go to work when they have the flu and to not require family leave."
What? Naw.

"It’s actually okay to care about how you feel or look."
It is more than okay. It is also okay not to care about how you look--and it must become okay with everybody else particularly bosses and other potential bullies for everyone to look however the fuck they want to look. It must become okay, all day everywhere, on the street and in the workplace, to care AND not to care.

If somebody wears makeup to an interview for a job that has nothing the fuck at all to do with what somebody's face looks like and the makeup prejudices the interviewer against the candidate, then the interviewer is a monster and must take immediate steps to demonster themselves because the interviewer is discriminating against the applicant and that's illegal and foul. The converse is also true. If work-mandated makeup makes someone's life a protracted misery because taking makeup off destroys their skin, the solution must not be for that person to invest time, money, and effort in product to placate a monster boss who thinks that skin that doesn't like soap and water is "dirty." If you risk getting fired if you stop washing your face for a week to see if the entire reason your face is dry enough to crack and bleed and oily enough that it's breaking out is that your skin can't tolerate soap and water, then you are not the problem, your skin is not the problem, the problem, as usual, is the system. (I am not saying that anybody posting here is in that category because who knows. But if you've never been able to try, it might be worth it to try. Don't put anything on it. Nothing. Not even water. For a week or two. Have somebody call those fuckers at work and say you're in a coma.)
posted by Don Pepino at 8:20 AM on February 1, 2018 [4 favorites]


You could make exactly the same argument about workplace dress codes and clothing, but nobody is arguing that they wear nothing but sweatpants and that the clothing industry is an evil scam.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:26 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


That's because this thread isn't about clothes? People regulary comment on those threads to say they just wear basic jeans an identical black t-shirts and that you're being ripped off constantly by clothing brands and fashion as a concept.
posted by Dysk at 8:32 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


"nobody is arguing that they wear nothing but sweatpants and that the clothing industry is an evil scam."
No, that's true, and it's a strawman. Not having to wreck your face is not equivalent to wearing sweatpants; it's akin to not having to wear L'eggs to work every day. Nobody argued for sweatpants, true, but many many people argued that "women must wear dresses, hose, and heels" was an evil scam, and the obvious sense in that argument loosened dress codes most places and now it's not MadMen at work anymore and that's GOOD. You can still wear spikes to work if you want. But you don't HAVE to. That's BETTER.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:36 AM on February 1, 2018 [3 favorites]


Makeup doesn’t wreck my face, and skin care doesn’t wreck my face. Just the opposite, both things significantly improve my face. You’re trying to argue that people wearing makeup or having a skin care regimen sets an objectively bad standard, just like expecting people to wear dresses, hose and heels sets an objectively standard, based apparently on nothing but your negative personal experience and leaving no room for people who actually like these things and find them beneficial. You don’t get to decide that.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:46 AM on February 1, 2018 [7 favorites]


Setting a standard at all leaves no room for people to not find that standard useful or beneficial. If course you're going to see more pushback against the actually existing standards we're required to live up to (or punished for not) than the theoretical opposite.
posted by Dysk at 8:52 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


I don’t find the supposed standard of “don’t improve yourself in any way or you’re a tool of the patriarchy” useful or beneficial in any way, either.

Adapt.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:55 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


"Adapt"? You're literally telling me to just go with the patriarchal bullshit because what, you can? Because you consider it improvement? All while complaining that other people are pushing their standards as objective on you?
posted by Dysk at 9:00 AM on February 1, 2018 [3 favorites]


Mod note: Heya, this is getting into a pretty direct one-on-one back and forth at this point and would be better to take to a private channel if you're mutually interested in continuing it. Otherwise just let it be at this point I think.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:03 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


So, uh, question about avoiding a specific actual scam in skin care & makeup products: does anyone do reviews that cover how easy or difficult it is to get the last bit of product out of the packaging? Because it is super-irritating to know there's more of the goop in that bottle/tube/whatever and have to resort to cotton swabs to get the last bit out, or spend the last couple weeks of use shaking the still-suspiciously-heavy bottle for more.

Is there some tip for reducing waste of these products that I'm missing?
posted by asperity at 9:33 AM on February 1, 2018


Well, with tubes, I cut off the top of the tube with a scissor and get the remaining goop out that way. If there's any left over after that (which there often is), I cover the opening pretty firmly with aluminum foil so that the air and light don't mess up the remaining amount. There's also a complicated method of cutting off the top and then putting the cut off part back over the tube, but I tried it and found it to be more trouble than it was worth.

Bottles, I'm afraid I just do the Q-tip/shaking thing, so no tips there.
posted by holborne at 9:38 AM on February 1, 2018


With all pastes and gels, I've always found that boring that works as well as just cutting the packaging (whether it be a tube or bottle or whatever - tubs excepted, they don't seem to withhold the last bit in the same way) open.
posted by Dysk at 9:40 AM on February 1, 2018


For bottles: Google "makeup bottle spatula" and choose your weapon! They're all basically fine.
posted by cooker girl at 9:41 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


Some brands do it better than others. For example, all the Kerastase products I’ve used have containers that allow one to use all the product.
posted by Autumnheart at 9:43 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


I have used the cheap dollar store version of these makeup spatula things and they work as much as you need them too.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 9:43 AM on February 1, 2018


"You’re trying to argue that people wearing makeup or having a skin care regimen sets an objectively bad standard, just like expecting people to wear dresses, hose and heels sets an objectively standard, based apparently on nothing but your negative personal experience and leaving no room for people who actually like these things and find them beneficial."

That is absolutely not my argument. I don't even think we're arguing; we seem to think the same thing.

"People wearing" is not equivalent to "expecting people to wear." People wearing/not wearing is great. People being expected to wear/not wear is awful. (Within some generally agreed-upon bounds like no sweatpants at the office.)

Product/no product by choice is totally awesome and makes a workplace free and fun for all. Product/no product by mandate hurts people.

It's clear that you and your skin like your regimen, and that is awesome and I am glad your face is happy and you are, too. It's your face, your money, and your time, and it's obvious that what you're spending your time on is fun and creative.

So like: I grow my hair long because I like to cut off a foot and send it to the little cancer children. It looks really horrible toward the end of this process and is a pain in the ass to deal with for months, but it's worth it to wait until I absolutely can't stand it one more second because I like the huge change from hideous to kicky when I finally get it cut, plus it works with my bizarre inclination to never throw anything away, plus there's the charity angle. My place of work, if it started to get in my business and tell me when I needed a haircut? I mean, yes. Obviously. I absolutely do need a haircut and have needed one for months. But this job has nothing to do with my hair. Therefore your meddling is harassment. Where is my Roy Cohn.

They sell teenweeny little silicon spatulas to get the last bit out of a jar.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:43 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]



So, uh, question about avoiding a specific actual scam in skin care & makeup products: does anyone do reviews that cover how easy or difficult it is to get the last bit of product out of the packaging?

The spatulas people mention above are good; I have also been known to disassemble stubborn packaging (Boots No 7 I'm looking RIGHT at you) from the get-go, and transfer the whole lot into an airplane-liquids type container. Obviously this works best for stuff that you can easily recognize on sight/scent, though. Unless you're really into label-making.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:45 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


Smoking and tanning are different from other skincare choices. The vast majority of these skincare products are not going to kill you if you use them as directed. They may or may not do much, but they’re not going to kill you. That is not the case with smoking or tanning. Those can and do kill people. Melanoma kills more than 9000 Americans per year. Smoking kills many more than that. Melanoma can also cause serious disfiguring injuries if it doesn’t kill you (Google Image Search for Mohs surgery if you’ve got a strong stomach).
posted by Anne Neville at 9:56 AM on February 1, 2018


I feel like people know smoking and tanning are deadly, especially people who do these things, and that's not really what this thread is about.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:00 AM on February 1, 2018 [4 favorites]


Yeah, so much of what humans do is potentially harmful or dangerous, but it seems there's a special ire for people who smoke or spend time in the sun.
posted by Dysk at 10:02 AM on February 1, 2018


People in this thread also know that skincare is not mandatory, and I'm pretty sure that no one here is mandating that anyone else adhere to any kind of behavior at all. As I said before, clearly some of us participating in this thread just like talking about this stuff, and the fact that we're talking about it is in no way a judgment on anything anyone else chooses to do. It would be great if, instead of rolling up in here and jumping up everyone's ass about how bad and wrong they are for engaging in a thing that you personally don't like, that you could maybe step out of the thread and find something else to do. I know I certainly would appreciate a little less of the sanctimony regarding how I choose to engage in self-care, since I'm sure not doling any of that out to those who don't practice as I do. Goddamn, y'all.
posted by palomar at 10:29 AM on February 1, 2018 [5 favorites]


I'm always amazed at these skin care threads on all platforms going the exact same way. Skincare has changed dramatically in the last few years, with actually effective anti-aging products such as retinoids* being made widely available. There are ways to cleanse one's face that don't involve soap and water, if that's what you find irritating. There are tons of products available at reasonable price points that aren't full of perfume and relying on huge marketing budgets**. Ingredient lists can be found online for just about everything, even if not on the brand's website. Yet lots of people repeat skincare "wisdom" of five, or ten or twenty years ago as if it's set in stone.

I'm not saying that anyone needs to do anything different to their face. But maybe think about whether what you have to say about this topic is current and applicable. This applies to the original article in the FPP as well. Yes there's always been and still is a ton of misinformation about women's skincare in the world. But there are also plenty of people willing to interrogate that misinformation and discuss ingredients that really work.

*I get tretinoin in a formula from Curology. The site is geared toward people with acne but I am using it to treat skin condition and signs of aging. You fill out a form, take photos, and discuss your skin with the medical team, and then they mail you your formula. I've been using it for two years now and have seen a big difference in my skin.

** The Ordinary has good products at great price points, and you can return stuff if it doesn't work. I also like Skinactives.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:37 AM on February 1, 2018 [7 favorites]


Welp, thanks to this thread I just placed an order for snail mucin serum.
posted by HotToddy at 10:57 AM on February 1, 2018 [5 favorites]


My mother and maternal grandmother both have/had amazing skin well into their 60s and beyond. When my grandmother died in her late 80s, her skin had no hyperpigmentation anywhere and only a few lines. My mother, who is closing in on 70, looks similar. My grandmother worked nights; my mother used sunblock and big hats her whole life. Both lived in humid locales nearly their entire lives.

By contrast, I spent the 1970s through 1990s as a swim team kid/pool rat/lifeguard, with all the "slather on the baby oil to get that amazing tan" behavior you can imagine. I cannot believe my fellow guards and I used to actually use a spray bottle of water on our oiled-up skins to amplify the sun's rays while sitting in a lifeguard chair in full sun.

In my 40s, I am proof that early sun overdosing plus two decades in California plus shifting perimenopausal hormones can overpower: good genes, eating healthfully, exercising regularly, staying hydrated, meditating and refraining from alcohol. At this point, putting on sunblock and continuing healthy habits feels tantamount to pulling weeds around an archeological dig. It tidies the current site but it's not restoring the ruined temple to imperial glory.

I'll confess, if someone told me, "Use this every day to reduce the hyperpigmentation, use that to fake the glow that youthful estrogen levels used to give you naturally," I would probably just nod and click "Buy" on whatever they told me, so long as the goop smelled nice.

If using unguents to get a little sensual pleasure and a moment of pretending I can escape the consequences of my past decisions is wrong, I don't want to be right.
posted by sobell at 11:11 AM on February 1, 2018 [4 favorites]


Chemical peels and retinoids do reduce hyperpigmentation, and the hypotheses around wound theory and collagen formation do actually work though. It definitely won’t make it like it never happened, but you can remove and restore to a noticeable degree. Of course, there are even stronger things you can do (like laser peels and IPL treatments and the like) but presumably we’re focusing on the DIY stuff.

I don’t think anyone expects to look 25 forever, because a youthful appearance isn’t just about wrinkles and pores vs. no wrinkles and no pores. Nicole Kidman went a solid decade without a facial expression but she doesn’t look 25. Muscle tone and fat placement also play a part. But really, there are a lot of people who look great as they get older even though they obviously have wrinkles and lines (like Robin Wright) but there’s a lot to be said about emphasizing the vitality of one’s expression while minimizing the frowny droopy aspect.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:28 AM on February 1, 2018


If putting snail slime on your face is wrong then I don't wanna be right.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:07 PM on February 1, 2018 [5 favorites]


We’re already putting on bat shit and whale throwup. Why not snail slime?
posted by Autumnheart at 12:22 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


Could you elaborate on this, paisley sheep (or anyone else)? My hands are so dry in the winter, and everything that I've tried has either not done much or had a really strong scent (I am really sensitive to perfume-y smells).

I am interested what hand cream was being discussed, but one option is to look for a product that has the phrase "Skin Protectant" on it. This is a drug claim, and means the product, the facility where it is made, and the labeling all have more strict requirements. It will have Drug Facts listed on the back (like ibuprofen or products that claim an SPF).

A lotion/cream that claims to be a skin protectant will likely have dimethicone, petrolatum, or lanolin (though these chemicals are also used in non-drug products, usually at lower quantities). If other products are not working for you, this may be a good option to try. And they're not necessarily more expensive than the average. Aveeno Daily Moisturizing Lotion (Amazon) (DailyMed) is an example of a skin protectant (that is fragrance free) that is priced comparably to many similar cosmetic (that is, non-drug) products.



Disclaimer: I am a consultant in the personal care products industry and while I have never worked for/with Aveeno, I have done some work for/with other Johnson & Johnson brands/companies.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:30 PM on February 1, 2018 [4 favorites]


I don’t think anyone expects to look 25 forever

I do but yellow doesn't mellow. or, as Ali Wong puts it somewhat more bluntly: Asian don’t die
posted by runt at 12:38 PM on February 1, 2018


I have the softest hands in the entire world and I use regular old Aveeno. (All day long tho, like every time I wash my hands, Aveeno goes on them immediately.)

They also get passably CeraVe'd when I moisturize my face, and I also roll my own nail oil (combo of vitamin E and jojoba) and paint that on my nails/cuticles when I think about it. But mostly it's down to the Aveeno. Aveeno is great.

Except for the positively radiant daily spf whatever which does the thing all basic sunscreens do which is kill my face with facepain.
posted by phunniemee at 12:50 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


Could you elaborate on this, paisley sheep (or anyone else)? My hands are so dry in the winter, and everything that I've tried has either not done much or had a really strong scent (I am really sensitive to perfume-y smells).

Tbh there's probably nothing super magical about Korean specific hand cream that you couldn't find locally, but I find that no matter what type of Korean hand cream I buy, it will more often than not reliably work for me so I don't have to be super picky, plus I'm a sucker for cute packaging.

Before I started using Korean hand cream, I was loyal to Kamille (chamomile) hand cream very similar to this, although it was in a different packaging, but the last time I used it was over a decade ago so maybe it's the same thing just repackaged. It was the only thing that really worked for me at the time -- wasn't too heavy or greasy, had a light pleasant scent (not too powerful, not too medicinal), and actually seemed to work without me having to reapply every hour.

I'm sure there are more options out there now, but I haven't felt a need to look around since I get such joy and satisfaction out of my cute tubes and adorable pots of Korean hand cream. I'm currently rocking the Tony Moly Pokemon collection which I stockpiled a couple years ago when there was a sale -- the Bulbasaur has a lovely green tea scent that's my favorite, with Squirtle's lotus scent a close second. I don't consider the majority of the scents to be particularly strong, although I typically avoid the fruity scents out of personal preference (except for the Tony Moly peach, which is pretty great), but I think fruity scents are a little stronger just in general.

None of the Korean hand creams I've used are particularly greasy (the Kamille still always left a slight residue, even though it was the least offensive one I could find at the time) and I only use a little bit a day instead of feeling like I regularly have to reapply. I really only use the cream on my fingers and backs of hands, since I'm fine with more generic lotion for the rest of my body if needed. I have used the hand cream on my face when I was in a desperate at work and it's all I had available to soothe my dry skin (which was dry thanks to stress causing me to fall off my usual skin care and self care routines). It's not something I would normally do because I don't like fragrance on my face, but my skin didn't break out or react badly to it, and my skin is reasonably sensitive.

As always, YSMV (your skin may vary).

I'll also add that this morning when I was showering, I was sad to realize that I probably only have a couple of weeks left in my Nature Republic fresh herb snail cleansing foam, maybe more if I'm especially good at squeezing. This has been one of my favorite face cleansers, it's lasted almost a year because a teeny bit goes a long way, but I'm also excited to go into my stock of cleansing foams and figure out what I'll try out next -- probably an aloe one because yay winter dry skin.
posted by paisley sheep at 1:00 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


Except for the positively radiant daily spf whatever which does the thing all basic sunscreens do which is kill my face with facepain.

Proof that everyone's skin is different, because this is the one essential I refuse to live without.
posted by paisley sheep at 1:07 PM on February 1, 2018


Oh no, pandas! Looking at this Tony Moly stuff may have been a mistake..

But really, thanks everyone for the info and discussion, it's been very enlightening.
posted by ashirys at 1:17 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


paisley sheep, me too. It's the only spf moisturizer that both works and doesn't hurt me.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:33 PM on February 1, 2018


Noooo never look at Tony Moly or Skinfood! The packaging alone is enough to suck you in. The product itself is a super bonus.
posted by elsietheeel at 1:43 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


oh no i want the panda
posted by poffin boffin at 2:37 PM on February 1, 2018 [3 favorites]


I am late to this party, but I have an important message: Baby Foot is a LIE. The internet promised me lengths of skin to peel off in satisfaction, and all I experienced was some minor crumbles. Lies, lies I tell you.
posted by stowaway at 4:31 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


...Is this where I ask what can be done about my neck? It's like all my aging accumulated there, specifically. Help.
posted by Space Kitty at 4:39 PM on February 1, 2018


Minor crumbles with Babyfoot means you didn’t soak your feet long enough before applying it. Gotta soak for a good 10-15 minutes.

It could also mean your feet are already baby feet and don’t have much peeling to do.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:19 PM on February 1, 2018


Neck (and the white girl V) should be treated like your face - so all the soft cleansers and moisturizers and especially SPF. I'm sure there are other good reversal/tightening/snail goo type advice, but I have found doing this at least arrests the damage.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:25 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


I soaked my feet for a long time! But I also scrub my feet with a washcloth with each shower, so perhaps there just isn't that much to take off. My feet are nothing like a baby's, unfortunately.
posted by stowaway at 6:51 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


to be honest, while Babyfoot was fun, the thing that's had the best impact on my raggedy hooves is a long soak in a basin full of hot water and a lot of cheap distilled white vinegar, then attacking the softened bits with this foot file, rubbing on whatever lotion I have on hand, cozy socks for a while while the lotion soaks in, and then repeat the whole process as needed. works like a charm for keeping my heels from getting so dry and gnarly during summer that they crack and hurt a whole bunch. sometimes i skip the lotion and socks part during a heat wave, it's not necessary.
posted by palomar at 7:52 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]


that foot file is the business, though, i tell you what. dry feet, soaked feet, doesn't matter. it's gonna do the job.
posted by palomar at 7:52 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


ugh but you inhale your foot dust if it's dry feet

now feet are in your lungs
posted by poffin boffin at 7:59 PM on February 1, 2018 [12 favorites]


I normally hate all Bath & Body Works products, but their True Blue footcare line is honestly great. If you only get one thing from it, I suggest the Walnut Shell Scrub. I smear this on sort of pressing it in, then I scrub it with a pumice or rough sponge (depending on season/state of my feet). Then I rinse, rough my feet up again with a washcloth or rough sponge (one less than the thing I just did) then lotion them with something that has urea in it (dry if they're normal, wet if it's winter and then when they dry something like a whipped shea or other lotion). My feet are generally too tender for any amount of pedi-grater. So if that describes you, try this instead.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 8:00 PM on February 1, 2018


This babyfoot thing sounds intriguing. I have callouses that I take care of by removing them every few weeks with my knife slicing off 3mm slices until I get down to better skin. They are so hard and solid that I once stepped on a fishhook barefooted and it only stuck in a bit and didn't go past the barb before I noticed that the attached line was tickling my foot. I expect that the peel wouldn't really do much permanently but it would be neat if I could get an entire slab of foot to turn into a coaster or something.
posted by koolkat at 1:29 AM on February 2, 2018 [4 favorites]


I normally hate all Bath & Body Works products, but their True Blue footcare line is honestly great.

IT IS and I learned something sad this week- they've stopped carrying it in the stores. It's online only now! Will have to get my Cracked Heel Treatment soon, it's amazing for keeping feet pretty.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:25 AM on February 2, 2018 [4 favorites]


I gave up on complicated skin care regimes many years ago, because of all the marketing bullshit and patriarchal bullshit. But recently I’ve seen a few friends with lifelong skin problems (some who persisted through the bullshit and some who didn’t) have visible improvement that’s made them feel more comfortable and happy. So I took a cautious peek at the latest in acne treatment because a change in birth control has made me look like my teenage self again.

And things really are different now. The patriarchal marketing is still there, of course. But there is also much more information out there about what’s in the products and how well they work. I was able to get all my questions answered, questions I’ve had for 20 years. There’s a bunch of women going all Mythbusters on skincare, and products developed for that market segment have to work or else they’ll get called out.

I’m going to try my first new skincare products in years this weekend. I’m not looking for a new hobby, but I’m very grateful to the women who are taking skincare seriously and then sharing what they learn.
posted by harriet vane at 7:02 AM on February 2, 2018 [14 favorites]


last night, half inspired by the thread, half looking for a way to wind down from a long day, i tried the Ordinary's 23% Vitamin C suspension with the 2% hyaluronic acid

it's the first vitamin c i've ever used

it's the first the ordinary product i've ever used

30 minutes later, my husband is grumpily asking from the bedroom why the fuck i'm still in the bathroom because it's midnight

reader, it's because i was staring at myself in the mirror and touching my face and taking selfies and texting my millenial lady friends and e-mailing my millenial-adjacent lady friends in all caps about how MY FACE LOOKS INCREDIBLE FEELS INCREDIBLE JESUS FUCKING CHRIST IT LOOKS LIKE I HAVE PRIMER AND FOUNDATION AND CONCEALER ON BUT IT'S JUST MY SKIN OH GOD MY CHEEK FEELS SO SOFT AND SMOOTH IT IS SOFTER THAN MY TODDLER'S OH GO
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:37 AM on February 2, 2018 [20 favorites]


MY FACE LOOKS INCREDIBLE FEELS INCREDIBLE JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

I just want to second this emotion but for The Ordinary's Lactic Acid, which has been working wonders on my face. The storied $105 Sunday Riley Good Genes is also lactic acid-based....but The Ordinary's is like seven bucks and I like what it's been doing.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:42 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]


I've heard great things about The Ordinary's products, but I'm starting Curology (I'm a sucker for a free trial and a 90 day money back guarantee) and my first bottle should be here next week, so no other new products for me until I see how this is going to work out. But a friend just got that same Vitamin C serum and she's SO PUMPED about it. I like the Cosrx Triple C Lightning Liquid pretty well, but I might need to try that one next. For one thing, it's way cheaper.

Pro tip: Store your Vitamin C serum in the fridge to extend its shelf life.
posted by palomar at 8:40 AM on February 2, 2018 [1 favorite]


I don’t think anyone expects to look 25 forever

Exactly. I will totally settle for looking 35 during the year that I am 35, and not like a surprisingly wrinkly 8th grader.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:25 AM on February 2, 2018 [8 favorites]




I don't think anyone's posted this, yet. Here's another way a skincare routine could have actual, measurable beneficial results:
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/how-beauty-products-help-trichotillomania
posted by Don Pepino at 8:32 AM on February 3, 2018 [3 favorites]


My husband pointed out this thread to me and it's gone down exactly as I expected a Metafilter discussion like this to go.

Anyway, I'm just popping in to say that I use maybe 10-12 things on my face at night and although I can't say they are all working miracles on my dry sensitive skin, here are the things I have notably benefited from, so yeah it's not snake oil for me:

- Snail mucin: As mentioned many times above. It's definitely made my skin less irritated, more resilient, and hold onto hydration better. I consider it as an equaliser. I don't really notice a dramatic improvement when I do use it, but I definitely noticed a step back when I even cut down to using it only in the evening (I use the Cosrx one, one pump in the morning and one in the evening, which lasts a good long while!)

- AHA: My first chemical exfoliant and I was totally anxious about using it with my aforementioned sensitive and dry skin. But I use Pixi Glow, which is on the gentler end and this has made the biggest different to my skin's texture and overall "radiance". After the first week I used it I couldn't believe the 'baby butt soft' feel of my face.

- BHA: It has been the most effective in reducing the little black dots around my nose. I use the Cosrx Blackhead Power Liquid and it was immensely satisfying to see them slowly disappear!

Thankfully I never had a huge problem with acne, just the occasional hormonal zit. But using these items in combination with various other hydrating toners and moisturisers has meant that after I get out of the shower, my face no longer feels like it's shrinking back into itself within 30 seconds. I can stay completely barefaced comfortably for at least an hour! This is completely mind blowing to me. And in an office with dry air con, after 10 hours I might need a light pat of powder, but my makeup doesn't make my skin look like sandy tissue paper anymore.
posted by like_neon at 5:59 AM on February 5, 2018 [6 favorites]


the serum distilled from the flesh of real babies has arrived and i shall apply it posthaste

if i get blisters afterwards you are all On Notice
posted by poffin boffin at 2:30 PM on February 5, 2018 [4 favorites]


A recent retrospective cohort study has found that people with acne are at substantially higher risk of depression in the first few years after developing it.

Here's the original article in the British Journal of Dermatology: Risk of depression among patients with acne in the U.K.: a population-based cohort study.
posted by Lexica at 12:13 PM on February 7, 2018 [1 favorite]


poffin boffin, anyone else inspired to try baby feet - did you do it? what happened? Were there blisters? Are your feet babies now?
posted by Fig at 5:56 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]


Fig, I've done it. It was very satisfying in that peel-off mask/peeling sunburn kind of way. My feet were pink and smoother, but I also felt they were kind of dried out, and went back to being not-babies in a disappointingly short amount of time.
posted by HotToddy at 2:24 PM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]


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