Burn the land and boil the sea. You can't take the [canon] from me.
February 9, 2018 11:42 PM Subscribe
Firefly canon to expand with series of original books: "EW can exclusively report that Titan Books and Twentieth Century Fox Consumer Products have teamed up to publish an original range of new fiction tying in to Joss Whedon’s beloved but short-lived TV series Firefly. The books will be official titles within the Firefly canon, with Whedon serving as consulting editor. The first book is due in the fall."
Firefly: Big Damn Hero, by Nancy Holder (Oct. 2018)
Captain Malcolm Reynolds finds himself in a dangerous situation after being kidnapped by a bunch of embittered veteran Browncoats.
Firefly: The Magnificent Nine, by James Lovegrove (March 2019)
Jayne receives a distress call from his ex Temperance McCloud that leads the Serenity crew to danger on a desert moon.
Firefly: Generations, by Tim Lebbon (Oct. 2019)
The discovery of the location of one of the legendary Ark ships that brought humans from Earth to the ’Verse promises staggering salvage potential, but at what cost? River Tam thinks she might know.
Firefly: Big Damn Hero, by Nancy Holder (Oct. 2018)
Captain Malcolm Reynolds finds himself in a dangerous situation after being kidnapped by a bunch of embittered veteran Browncoats.
Firefly: The Magnificent Nine, by James Lovegrove (March 2019)
Jayne receives a distress call from his ex Temperance McCloud that leads the Serenity crew to danger on a desert moon.
Firefly: Generations, by Tim Lebbon (Oct. 2019)
The discovery of the location of one of the legendary Ark ships that brought humans from Earth to the ’Verse promises staggering salvage potential, but at what cost? River Tam thinks she might know.
Despite Whedon's personal predilections, I am okay with this. The comics were pretty decent, and I do miss me some Firefly/Serenity.
posted by Samizdata at 12:31 AM on February 10, 2018
posted by Samizdata at 12:31 AM on February 10, 2018
I look forward to the oral history of how WB fucked everything to do with Firefly so badly that they ended up releasing books.
posted by The River Ivel at 1:44 AM on February 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 1:44 AM on February 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Given the transparent parallels in Firefly to the US Confederacy and the current wave of white nationalism, I'm finding it real uncomfortable to think for more than half a moment about who these novels might be appealing to, and why they're bringing them out now. Like, that just...that feels kinda gross, right?
I really liked Firefly when I saw it in 2003. Rewatching it a few years ago was a surprisingly unpleasant experience; when I tried to revisit it maybe six months ago, I couldn't bring myself to watch more than an episode or two. Some things are better left alone.
posted by mishafletch at 1:44 AM on February 10, 2018 [48 favorites]
I really liked Firefly when I saw it in 2003. Rewatching it a few years ago was a surprisingly unpleasant experience; when I tried to revisit it maybe six months ago, I couldn't bring myself to watch more than an episode or two. Some things are better left alone.
posted by mishafletch at 1:44 AM on February 10, 2018 [48 favorites]
good points misafletch
also am i the only one who read that and was hoping for canon stories about everything else in the verse except our main characters? stories from other places, other people - a diary of the collapse of Pandora... smuggling tales from other folks with a different style than Malcolm... a quilt of stories from the inner core... a psychological drama with a recovering reaver
posted by kokaku at 2:46 AM on February 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
also am i the only one who read that and was hoping for canon stories about everything else in the verse except our main characters? stories from other places, other people - a diary of the collapse of Pandora... smuggling tales from other folks with a different style than Malcolm... a quilt of stories from the inner core... a psychological drama with a recovering reaver
posted by kokaku at 2:46 AM on February 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
I just... can’t watch Jayne anymore. I’m unsure if I can ever support Joss again. I want to continue to enjoy Firefly. Really. I just don’t know how. FFS, I have a Firefly license plate that I feel weird about. Ugh.
posted by greermahoney at 2:56 AM on February 10, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by greermahoney at 2:56 AM on February 10, 2018 [25 favorites]
It's not the format I might have chosen for River Tam Beats Up Everyone, but I am intrigued.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:31 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:31 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
The Firefly Encyclopaedia will not be reprinted. It is not canon. We have been working with Whedon's original notes...
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:39 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:39 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is going to be terrible. I love(d?) Firefly, but no.
posted by Literaryhero at 6:07 AM on February 10, 2018
posted by Literaryhero at 6:07 AM on February 10, 2018
If the content is good, books can lead to audiobooks, which CAN be produced as audio dramas... see recent Audible productions of Alien: Out of the Shadows and X-Files: Cold Cases.
It's not the same as actual new films or tv series, but when done with a full cast of original actors it can be 90% as satisfying (and also significantly cheaper to produce, I assume!).
posted by Nutri-Matic Drinks Synthesizer at 6:12 AM on February 10, 2018
It's not the same as actual new films or tv series, but when done with a full cast of original actors it can be 90% as satisfying (and also significantly cheaper to produce, I assume!).
posted by Nutri-Matic Drinks Synthesizer at 6:12 AM on February 10, 2018
I look forward to the oral history of how WB fucked everything to do with Firefly so badly that they ended up releasing books.
I think it was Fox.
I'm in the "Sit down, Joss" camp.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 6:16 AM on February 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think it was Fox.
I'm in the "Sit down, Joss" camp.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 6:16 AM on February 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I felt like Serenity wrapped up the story lines well enough that I don't need more from Firefly.
posted by octothorpe at 6:21 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:21 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I feel like Serenity wrapped up the story lines really badly, but I don't need more from Firefly either.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:22 AM on February 10, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:22 AM on February 10, 2018 [20 favorites]
I forget who said it first, but I like the idea that Serenity is the last of three movies, but we never get to see the first two.
It was beautiful, but let it go. Clinging to the past is a bad look for science fiction fans. No more Jedis, no more Trek, let's make some space for what comes next.
posted by mhoye at 6:25 AM on February 10, 2018 [24 favorites]
It was beautiful, but let it go. Clinging to the past is a bad look for science fiction fans. No more Jedis, no more Trek, let's make some space for what comes next.
posted by mhoye at 6:25 AM on February 10, 2018 [24 favorites]
That last bit sounded more like something you'd yell at a protest than I'd intended, but I stand by it.
posted by mhoye at 6:28 AM on February 10, 2018 [33 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 6:28 AM on February 10, 2018 [33 favorites]
Clinging to the past is a bad look for science fiction fans.
Yeah, we wouldn't want science fiction TV and Movies to be dominated by 40 and 50 year old franchises.
posted by octothorpe at 6:31 AM on February 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yeah, we wouldn't want science fiction TV and Movies to be dominated by 40 and 50 year old franchises.
posted by octothorpe at 6:31 AM on February 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
No more Jedis, no more Trek, let's make some space for what comes next.
Semi Last Jedi spoiler alert, but Rey grabbed the ancient Jedi texts on her way off Ahch-To. It’s okay to have both the old and the new as we evolve.
The Universe is vast enough for all the fandoms, including new ones inspired by new voices alongside the semi-embarrassing old ones.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:03 AM on February 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Semi Last Jedi spoiler alert, but Rey grabbed the ancient Jedi texts on her way off Ahch-To. It’s okay to have both the old and the new as we evolve.
The Universe is vast enough for all the fandoms, including new ones inspired by new voices alongside the semi-embarrassing old ones.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:03 AM on February 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
also am i the only one who read that and was hoping for canon stories about everything else in the verse except our main characters? stories from other places, other people - a diary of the collapse of Pandora.
I could use a series of Shepherd Book...um...books, myself.
Or...y’know, some Saffron tales.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:10 AM on February 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
I could use a series of Shepherd Book...um...books, myself.
Or...y’know, some Saffron tales.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:10 AM on February 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's not the format I might have chosen for River Tam Beats Up Everyone, but I am intrigued.
River the Reaver Slayer. I'm in.
posted by mikelieman at 7:18 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
River the Reaver Slayer. I'm in.
posted by mikelieman at 7:18 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
It was beautiful, but let it go. Clinging to the past is a bad look for science fiction fans. No more Jedis, no more Trek, let's make some space for what comes next.
Agreed! There's so much good stuff out there. Go watch/read the The Expanse series. It's amazing. It has a lot of that same flavor of Firefly, with the plucky, exploited Belters and their struggle against the Mars and Earth. It's a drama, so it has fewer wisecracks per minute, but on the other hand it doesn't star Adam "Gamergate" Baldwin.
posted by JDHarper at 7:21 AM on February 10, 2018 [17 favorites]
Agreed! There's so much good stuff out there. Go watch/read the The Expanse series. It's amazing. It has a lot of that same flavor of Firefly, with the plucky, exploited Belters and their struggle against the Mars and Earth. It's a drama, so it has fewer wisecracks per minute, but on the other hand it doesn't star Adam "Gamergate" Baldwin.
posted by JDHarper at 7:21 AM on February 10, 2018 [17 favorites]
Someone in the online word game I play goes by "FireflySeason18" and it makes me giggle when I see him on the boards.
posted by frecklefaerie at 7:23 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by frecklefaerie at 7:23 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Like, that just...that feels kinda gross, right?
I took a university course on the Civil War the same time that Firefly came out, and the *needless* grossness of it struck me hard even at the time. Westerns from the Confederate perspective are a cliche by now -- a space Western from the Union perspective wouldn't have been that hard to do and would have been refreshing.
But instead, Firefly is in a world which literally erases the real reason for the Civil War.
Taken in context, yeah, I feel like there are reasons to let the TV show die.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 7:25 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
I took a university course on the Civil War the same time that Firefly came out, and the *needless* grossness of it struck me hard even at the time. Westerns from the Confederate perspective are a cliche by now -- a space Western from the Union perspective wouldn't have been that hard to do and would have been refreshing.
But instead, Firefly is in a world which literally erases the real reason for the Civil War.
Taken in context, yeah, I feel like there are reasons to let the TV show die.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 7:25 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
The Expanse season 2 is on Amazon Prime now so I'll git it another try but I had a really hard time following that show. I don't know if I'm dim or the storytelling isn't very clear but I never quite knew what was going on.
posted by octothorpe at 7:26 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:26 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
They should do one where a young Browncoat Mal helps Winfield Scott steal land from Cherokees
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:34 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:34 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sometimes things die, and we bury them, and we move on. Sometimes we go visit the grave and remember. Sometimes we might think we can dig up what lies buried there and give it life again...but we probably should never do that.
posted by nubs at 8:09 AM on February 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by nubs at 8:09 AM on February 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm very much living by "if someone is putting more harm into the universe than good, I'm done with them." It's surprisingly easy, and has the added benefit of allowing me to sleep at night. It started during the election (that was the hard part--"unfriending" is more painful in real life than on Facebook), it was amplified during the Weinstein et al purge (which I hope continues until it is actually done), and now is one of the basic tenets of how I choose to spend my time, money, and emotional energy. I will never give Adam Baldwin or Joss Whedon another second of my attention or cent of my money, and I don't give a shit if others think I'm too harsh or "making a big deal out of nothing"--I will actively judge people who do. There is more extant great fiction in film, movies, and novels than you could ever consume in your lifetime. Spending time supporting Adam Baldwin and Joss Whedon makes you part of the problem.
posted by tzikeh at 8:14 AM on February 10, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by tzikeh at 8:14 AM on February 10, 2018 [15 favorites]
You can't take Ione Skye from me.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:23 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:23 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
but on the other hand it doesn't star Adam "Gamergate" Baldwin.
Welp, I was unaware of Baldwin's role in that, so I just spent a minute going down a noxious internet rabbit hole... Ugh. Why are people horrible.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:33 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Welp, I was unaware of Baldwin's role in that, so I just spent a minute going down a noxious internet rabbit hole... Ugh. Why are people horrible.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:33 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Leaving aside the obvious - and important - notes about how bad Firefly's politics are, (pro-Confederate stuff, leaving Chinese people off screen and so on)...
Before we found out how horrible Joss Whedon was behaving behind the scenes, (and before Adam Baldwin showed his true colors), I had already come to regard Whedon as a figure to outgrow.
The attempts at strong female protagonists in his work felt well-meaning but deeply flawed due to the patriarchal undercurrent in them: Buffy always needed a man to set her straight. Cordelia's entire arc in Angel was crazy insulting (Cordelia Chase was my favorite figure in the entire Buffyverse). Everything surrounding Inara on Firefly was deeply uncomfortable. Sane, reasonable women got killed off like clockwork: Tara, Cordelia, Fred.
My early original fiction started off as 'I would like to write a character like Buffy with less weird baggage.' I dunno that I succeeded, but I already knew - even back then - that what I was seeing was flawed. I just imagined he didn't realize, and was trying his best too. I guess that might still be true, I just don't care anymore.
So... even before we found out what sort of men would really profit from this, I probably wouldn't have been all that interested. In the wake of what Kai shared, and Gamergate... yeah, nopenopenope.
(Plus, I personally loathed the comics.)
posted by mordax at 8:39 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
Before we found out how horrible Joss Whedon was behaving behind the scenes, (and before Adam Baldwin showed his true colors), I had already come to regard Whedon as a figure to outgrow.
The attempts at strong female protagonists in his work felt well-meaning but deeply flawed due to the patriarchal undercurrent in them: Buffy always needed a man to set her straight. Cordelia's entire arc in Angel was crazy insulting (Cordelia Chase was my favorite figure in the entire Buffyverse). Everything surrounding Inara on Firefly was deeply uncomfortable. Sane, reasonable women got killed off like clockwork: Tara, Cordelia, Fred.
My early original fiction started off as 'I would like to write a character like Buffy with less weird baggage.' I dunno that I succeeded, but I already knew - even back then - that what I was seeing was flawed. I just imagined he didn't realize, and was trying his best too. I guess that might still be true, I just don't care anymore.
So... even before we found out what sort of men would really profit from this, I probably wouldn't have been all that interested. In the wake of what Kai shared, and Gamergate... yeah, nopenopenope.
(Plus, I personally loathed the comics.)
posted by mordax at 8:39 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
The Expanse season 2 is on Amazon Prime now so I'll git it another try but I had a really hard time following that show. I don't know if I'm dim or the storytelling isn't very clear but I never quite knew what was going on.
The Expanse is a show that demands an unusual amount of attention, and not necessarily in a good way. They frequently show you something once and expect that you'll remember it three episodes later, and when people start dropping exposition you have to listen and remember. And while it's sort of refreshing, kinda, it also really is a bit of a problem.
If you're skipping the "previously on..." bits, maybe don't? Often that's the only callback you'll get.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:44 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Expanse is a show that demands an unusual amount of attention, and not necessarily in a good way. They frequently show you something once and expect that you'll remember it three episodes later, and when people start dropping exposition you have to listen and remember. And while it's sort of refreshing, kinda, it also really is a bit of a problem.
If you're skipping the "previously on..." bits, maybe don't? Often that's the only callback you'll get.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:44 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
mhoye: It was beautiful, but let it go.
Some of us may have thought it was beautiful, but we needed new lenses. It was never, ever beautiful. Like when you realize you can see all of the individual ugly, disgusting, powerfully racist and sexist leaves on the trees after you get an updated prescription. It once looked like a nice green Monet, right? Yeah, this was not an impressionist work. It's pretty specifically delineated.
Anyone who thinks Firefly was beautiful needs to have their awareness historical metaphor and appropriation checked. Not to mention Joss Whedon using his built-in power imbalance to fuck several teenaged (or acting-teenaged-on-tv) girls, while married, all the while shouting "Girl Power!" from the rooftops.
(I can't get into Adam Baldwin's many, many, many vile and truly evil faults right now. I just ate breakfast and I'd like to keep it from coming back up.)
So -- better one, or better two?
posted by tzikeh at 8:47 AM on February 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
Some of us may have thought it was beautiful, but we needed new lenses. It was never, ever beautiful. Like when you realize you can see all of the individual ugly, disgusting, powerfully racist and sexist leaves on the trees after you get an updated prescription. It once looked like a nice green Monet, right? Yeah, this was not an impressionist work. It's pretty specifically delineated.
Anyone who thinks Firefly was beautiful needs to have their awareness historical metaphor and appropriation checked. Not to mention Joss Whedon using his built-in power imbalance to fuck several teenaged (or acting-teenaged-on-tv) girls, while married, all the while shouting "Girl Power!" from the rooftops.
(I can't get into Adam Baldwin's many, many, many vile and truly evil faults right now. I just ate breakfast and I'd like to keep it from coming back up.)
So -- better one, or better two?
posted by tzikeh at 8:47 AM on February 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
l used to love Firefly, met most of the cast at Dragon*Con in the early 00s. I saw Serenity, loved it, missed that universe.
I posted about what happened to me before with Adam Baldwin. I have given away anything Firefly-related a long time ago, and do not understand why Joss insists on beating this dead horse (likely the fans, but I'm with tzikeh in that in supporting this fictional narrative is not a good look in this current climate).
posted by Kitteh at 8:54 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
I posted about what happened to me before with Adam Baldwin. I have given away anything Firefly-related a long time ago, and do not understand why Joss insists on beating this dead horse (likely the fans, but I'm with tzikeh in that in supporting this fictional narrative is not a good look in this current climate).
posted by Kitteh at 8:54 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
"The Expanse season 2 is on Amazon Prime now so I'll git it another try but I had a really hard time following that show."
The books are fun (im about the finish the 5th one) but I'm often like, ugh where are we? What location is this?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:16 AM on February 10, 2018
The books are fun (im about the finish the 5th one) but I'm often like, ugh where are we? What location is this?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:16 AM on February 10, 2018
Mishafletch said it better than I could have. The backdrop to Firefly is racist, the fans who want to ignore that make it even more uncomfortable, and the last thing we need in terms of media is more stuff targeted for a white supremacist audience. I watched Firefly in law school with my roommate. We had fun. The further in we got, the more uncomfortable it got, and that was years before Joss Whedon was publicly revealed as a creep.
I guess I'll go read books by QTPOC authors or something.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:30 AM on February 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
I guess I'll go read books by QTPOC authors or something.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:30 AM on February 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
i did enjoy firefly for the mandarin, and subsequently, fandom's own usage of chinese culture. i'll never forget a simon/mal fic where 'aiya!' is said with no irony at intercourse.
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sigh. There was a time when I adored Firefly more than any other show. I taped every episode when it originally aired (a friend taped Alias, which aired on the same day for a while, and we'd trade off on Monday). I still have the VHS tapes, even though I haven't had a machine capable of playing them for over a decade.
I loved that it had been inspired in part by one of my favorite historical novels, The Killer Angels (which is about Gettysburg and introduced me to the amazing Union colonel, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain). I harbored some small hope that if the show had gone on for longer, we'd have learned more about the larger reasons behind the Browncoat resistance to Unification and it'd be more complicated than just Core = controlling = bad, Rim = freedom = good.
I haven't revisited the series in a long time, largely because I just know it's been visited by the Suck Fairy and not even Nathan Fillion's charm can save it.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:52 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
I loved that it had been inspired in part by one of my favorite historical novels, The Killer Angels (which is about Gettysburg and introduced me to the amazing Union colonel, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain). I harbored some small hope that if the show had gone on for longer, we'd have learned more about the larger reasons behind the Browncoat resistance to Unification and it'd be more complicated than just Core = controlling = bad, Rim = freedom = good.
I haven't revisited the series in a long time, largely because I just know it's been visited by the Suck Fairy and not even Nathan Fillion's charm can save it.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:52 AM on February 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
I do like The Expanse's commitment to real world physics and lack of overused Trek tropes, especially hyper/warp/jump drive that keeps it in our solar system. I just found out that one of the showrunners has a PhD in Physics and Engineering from Cornell which probably helps. I do wish that they'd ditch the fedora though.
posted by octothorpe at 9:53 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 9:53 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
I do wish that they'd ditch the fedora though.
Yeah, in the book Hat Cop wears a pork pie hat!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:00 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, in the book Hat Cop wears a pork pie hat!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:00 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
But instead, Firefly is in a world which literally erases the real reason for the Civil War.
I did a rewatch a few years back and was stunned, actually, to find that slavery is mentioned offhandedly in several of the first few episodes. It’s easy to miss (the one example that sticks with me is when they’re on one of the core worlds in “Shindig”, and one of the fancy dress women talk about having their “girl” pick something up from a store), but it’s there.
They don’t really do enough with it, but I think that the idea that the core worlds endorse slavery and that’s what the rim was fighting against may have been the eventual plot line (and it ties in, thematically, with the pacification/reaver subplot in Serenity).
At any rate, it wasn’t enough to keep me watching. I think I made it one episode after Shindig before giving up.
posted by thecaddy at 10:07 AM on February 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
I did a rewatch a few years back and was stunned, actually, to find that slavery is mentioned offhandedly in several of the first few episodes. It’s easy to miss (the one example that sticks with me is when they’re on one of the core worlds in “Shindig”, and one of the fancy dress women talk about having their “girl” pick something up from a store), but it’s there.
They don’t really do enough with it, but I think that the idea that the core worlds endorse slavery and that’s what the rim was fighting against may have been the eventual plot line (and it ties in, thematically, with the pacification/reaver subplot in Serenity).
At any rate, it wasn’t enough to keep me watching. I think I made it one episode after Shindig before giving up.
posted by thecaddy at 10:07 AM on February 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Re: Expanse, I like both the books and the TV series, but the books definitely have more of that Firefly-esque jokey spaceship crew camaraderie element. Along with more body-horror terrifying awfulness, which is an interesting combo!
posted by Catseye at 10:08 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Catseye at 10:08 AM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ugh. Loved Firefly so much. Haven’t paid much attention to it for the last decade. Saw the book news and thought it would make a fun post. Aaaaaaand now I’m learning from the comments about Baldwin and the racist subtext. Fucking hell.
posted by not_the_water at 10:15 AM on February 10, 2018
posted by not_the_water at 10:15 AM on February 10, 2018
I do wish that they'd ditch the fedora though.
Keep watching.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:54 AM on February 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Keep watching.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:54 AM on February 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Truthfully, IMO (having read all the books first), I would (we're talking books here) NOT recommend doing the Expanse for a somewhat snarky replacement fantasy SF fix. There's a fair bit of protomolecule related weirdness that I think breaks the feel.
As a replacement, might I recommend the Wayfarer series by Becky Chambers? Great books, easy to read, the science works, and it scratches that "build your own diverse family" itch too.
posted by Samizdata at 11:28 AM on February 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
As a replacement, might I recommend the Wayfarer series by Becky Chambers? Great books, easy to read, the science works, and it scratches that "build your own diverse family" itch too.
posted by Samizdata at 11:28 AM on February 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
You all should check out Con Man, which features much of the firefly cast in a quasi-post-firefly world. The Baldwinesque character is particularly funny.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:38 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:38 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
> Pogo_Fuzzybutt:
"You all should check out Con Man, which features much of the firefly cast in a quasi-post-firefly world. The Baldwinesque character is particularly funny."
Video? Book? Delicious snack? Trust you me, I Google "con man" I doubt I would find a lot more on confidence game based scamming before I ever see whatever it is you are recommending.
posted by Samizdata at 11:46 AM on February 10, 2018
"You all should check out Con Man, which features much of the firefly cast in a quasi-post-firefly world. The Baldwinesque character is particularly funny."
Video? Book? Delicious snack? Trust you me, I Google "con man" I doubt I would find a lot more on confidence game based scamming before I ever see whatever it is you are recommending.
posted by Samizdata at 11:46 AM on February 10, 2018
Con Man is an American comedy web series created, written, directed by, and starring Alan Tudyk.
Con Man Trailer
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:05 PM on February 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Con Man Trailer
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:05 PM on February 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
I do like me some Alan Tudyk. I will check it out later.
posted by Samizdata at 12:34 PM on February 10, 2018
posted by Samizdata at 12:34 PM on February 10, 2018
Ooooooh, digging the rest of the cast after that trailer too.
posted by Samizdata at 12:41 PM on February 10, 2018
posted by Samizdata at 12:41 PM on February 10, 2018
Sorry, it was supposed to be a link to the wiki page. I'm on a 4500 mile roadtrip and posting from a gas stop. But, you got it sorted. Thanks ATG.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:55 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:55 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
I concur with all the Adam Baldwin loathing--I was never a fan of his anyway on Firefly or Chuck and he always seemed like the sort of dude who would be this kind of asshole anyway. If there was ever a live action revival of Firefly I'd hope Jayne got killed in the first five minutes. However, this is a book series and I doubt Adam Baldwin will get a cut of the money, so....eh, I would probably be more into reading the books. I tried to get into the comics but as per every time I tried to get into Whedon comic books continuing the series, I ended up drifting off. It's a pain in the ass to try to remember to go to the comic store every month and lord knows I've run into issues with what I wanted just plain not being delivered to my local store, so...eh.
As for Joss's behavior: I am not thrilled at finding out he had consenting (AS FAR AS WE KNOW SO FAR ANYWAY, WHO KNOWS ANY MORE) affairs with actresses, but for the moment I haven't quit all of his fandoms yet over it. There are positive and negative portrayals with everyone with women and lord knows I don't think Joss is 100% pure feminist anyway.
I don't know what to say on the Civil War stuff. Never read Killer Angels, have no idea if slavery was going on in this verse, and "unification vs. independence" seems like a reasonable fight to have when it comes to different planets, so it didn't red flag me.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:16 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
As for Joss's behavior: I am not thrilled at finding out he had consenting (AS FAR AS WE KNOW SO FAR ANYWAY, WHO KNOWS ANY MORE) affairs with actresses, but for the moment I haven't quit all of his fandoms yet over it. There are positive and negative portrayals with everyone with women and lord knows I don't think Joss is 100% pure feminist anyway.
I don't know what to say on the Civil War stuff. Never read Killer Angels, have no idea if slavery was going on in this verse, and "unification vs. independence" seems like a reasonable fight to have when it comes to different planets, so it didn't red flag me.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:16 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the namechecking of Jubal Early was a Civil War shoutout and I guess Nathan Fillion claims to be descended from him but, dude that's not somethign to be proud of. And Shepherd Book as a mystic negro whose natural hair frightens River at one point didn't help either.
posted by TwoStride at 3:39 PM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 3:39 PM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
As for Joss's behavior: I am not thrilled at finding out he had consenting (AS FAR AS WE KNOW SO FAR ANYWAY, WHO KNOWS ANY MORE) affairs with actresses, but for the moment I haven't quit all of his fandoms yet over it.
Everybody's going to have to figure that line out for themselves.
"unification vs. independence" seems like a reasonable fight to have when it comes to different planets, so it didn't red flag me.
If it helps, at the time, I thought it was Joss Whedon playing with tropes again. Buffy's basic pitch is pretty genius: 'the cheerleader who is supposed to get eaten by monsters is the really dangerous one.' While I have a lot of problems with how that played out, especially as it went on, I'm still in love with the simple contrariness of it.
I thought Firefly was motivated by the same thinking, (and it probably was): 'we're rooting for the bad guys to examine that world in a different way.' At the time, it worked for me. I loved Firefly back in the day. Really did. I even went to panels about it at Dragon*Con 2010, and they were loads of fun. I remained pro-Firefly until quite recently myself, so I feel for your position.
However, if you take a peek at it, it's pretty disturbing. It's pretty clear the border worlds are garbage, and that slavery occurs even if it's not called that.
- Saffron's cover story in Our Mrs. Reynolds is that the town elders married her to Mal without her consent as payment for services rendered. Mal believes this cover story, meaning that he thinks the idea of a backwater planet selling him a child bride is plausible.
- The Mudders in Jaynestown are wage slaves. They live in a company town, and have to buy all their necessities directly from their employer, making them literally unable to leave.
The way the government conflict is depicted, 'independence' is the right for border worlds to wallow in all this shit: a lot of little robber barons abusing people, (see also Patience, Nishka, Badger, Rance Burgess, Atherton Wing, etc.). However, the show posits that 'unification' is just as bad: see the Operative, the Reavers, etc.
At the end of the day, the show is about the impossibility of progress. It's basically both-sides-ism applied via the lens of space Western.
As the noble scoundrel protagonist, all Mal can do is navigate an irredeemably corrupt system while trying to maintain his personal honor, but there's no path forward, no way to make the world a better place for everyone, and so he's under no moral imperative to even try. It's okay for him to be a criminal because what else could he do?
It's really deeply cynical even without getting into stuff like 'if half the people are Chinese, why don't we see any?'
I'm not saying all of that to try and yank you from the fandom. I more think... it's okay to like problematic fiction. It has to be, because most fiction has issues, and each of us has to decide where we want to be in our off-hours. I just think it's bad to do so uncritically, not turning over what we're looking at and trying to understand it better, maybe learn about our own biases at the same time. Art should be more than where we escape, it should be where we grow, IMO.
posted by mordax at 4:08 PM on February 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
Everybody's going to have to figure that line out for themselves.
"unification vs. independence" seems like a reasonable fight to have when it comes to different planets, so it didn't red flag me.
If it helps, at the time, I thought it was Joss Whedon playing with tropes again. Buffy's basic pitch is pretty genius: 'the cheerleader who is supposed to get eaten by monsters is the really dangerous one.' While I have a lot of problems with how that played out, especially as it went on, I'm still in love with the simple contrariness of it.
I thought Firefly was motivated by the same thinking, (and it probably was): 'we're rooting for the bad guys to examine that world in a different way.' At the time, it worked for me. I loved Firefly back in the day. Really did. I even went to panels about it at Dragon*Con 2010, and they were loads of fun. I remained pro-Firefly until quite recently myself, so I feel for your position.
However, if you take a peek at it, it's pretty disturbing. It's pretty clear the border worlds are garbage, and that slavery occurs even if it's not called that.
- Saffron's cover story in Our Mrs. Reynolds is that the town elders married her to Mal without her consent as payment for services rendered. Mal believes this cover story, meaning that he thinks the idea of a backwater planet selling him a child bride is plausible.
- The Mudders in Jaynestown are wage slaves. They live in a company town, and have to buy all their necessities directly from their employer, making them literally unable to leave.
The way the government conflict is depicted, 'independence' is the right for border worlds to wallow in all this shit: a lot of little robber barons abusing people, (see also Patience, Nishka, Badger, Rance Burgess, Atherton Wing, etc.). However, the show posits that 'unification' is just as bad: see the Operative, the Reavers, etc.
At the end of the day, the show is about the impossibility of progress. It's basically both-sides-ism applied via the lens of space Western.
As the noble scoundrel protagonist, all Mal can do is navigate an irredeemably corrupt system while trying to maintain his personal honor, but there's no path forward, no way to make the world a better place for everyone, and so he's under no moral imperative to even try. It's okay for him to be a criminal because what else could he do?
It's really deeply cynical even without getting into stuff like 'if half the people are Chinese, why don't we see any?'
I'm not saying all of that to try and yank you from the fandom. I more think... it's okay to like problematic fiction. It has to be, because most fiction has issues, and each of us has to decide where we want to be in our off-hours. I just think it's bad to do so uncritically, not turning over what we're looking at and trying to understand it better, maybe learn about our own biases at the same time. Art should be more than where we escape, it should be where we grow, IMO.
posted by mordax at 4:08 PM on February 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
The thing about Firefly that made it so appealing (to me, anyway) was not the racism or the problematic story tropes, but that Whedon is really good at dialog and character. By the end of the first episode (whichever one you choose: "Serenity" or "The Train Job"), you know every single one of these people and what they're about.
Stargate: Atlantis was airing around the same time as Firefly, and it never ceased to amaze me how incredibly poor the character development was on that show, by comparison. Whedon has his issues, and his dialog beats are kind of repetitive, but the dialog is quick and witty and conveys both information and character in ways that most tv writers can't manage.
Which is why I still have a queasy fondness for Firefly, because the writing is simultaneously so well done on the dialog front, while failing entirely to understand and/or interrogate what the writing is actually saying about the world being created. It's a problem.
posted by suelac at 5:12 PM on February 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
Stargate: Atlantis was airing around the same time as Firefly, and it never ceased to amaze me how incredibly poor the character development was on that show, by comparison. Whedon has his issues, and his dialog beats are kind of repetitive, but the dialog is quick and witty and conveys both information and character in ways that most tv writers can't manage.
Which is why I still have a queasy fondness for Firefly, because the writing is simultaneously so well done on the dialog front, while failing entirely to understand and/or interrogate what the writing is actually saying about the world being created. It's a problem.
posted by suelac at 5:12 PM on February 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
Im on a phone, so a longer comment is impossible. But I agree that there are a lot of problematic aspects to the universe that go unexamined.
That being said, I think thats what makes the universe feel complex and real. Theres a real tension between libertarisnism and authoritarianism. What I think is interesting is that the show doesnt examine and measure them. It simply presents them, and trusts the viewer to bring a brain.
Frankly, I think its vastly preferable to, say, ST pristine and sterile morality.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:34 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
That being said, I think thats what makes the universe feel complex and real. Theres a real tension between libertarisnism and authoritarianism. What I think is interesting is that the show doesnt examine and measure them. It simply presents them, and trusts the viewer to bring a brain.
Frankly, I think its vastly preferable to, say, ST pristine and sterile morality.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:34 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Problematic TV series. Hell of a good board game.
(Alas, Sean Sweigart, apparently the principal designer behind it, was one of the lesser-known casualties of the year of reaving that was 2016, so there is likely no more.)
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:50 PM on February 10, 2018
(Alas, Sean Sweigart, apparently the principal designer behind it, was one of the lesser-known casualties of the year of reaving that was 2016, so there is likely no more.)
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:50 PM on February 10, 2018
jenfullmoon: As for Joss's behavior: I am not thrilled at finding out he had consenting (AS FAR AS WE KNOW SO FAR ANYWAY, WHO KNOWS ANY MORE) affairs with actresses
mordax: Everybody's going to have to figure that line out for themselves.
There's nothing to figure out. The power imbalance between a show-runner and a young actress on their show makes it impossible for there to have been true consent by any of the women involved. Their careers were in the balance. He was their boss. Every "yes" was a forced "yes" simply by dint of the situation, and suggesting that it's open for debate with "as far as we know" or "everyone's line in the sand is different in this kind of thing" is dissembling and harmful to the ongoing discussion of men in power abusing that power to have sex with women.
posted by tzikeh at 5:57 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
mordax: Everybody's going to have to figure that line out for themselves.
There's nothing to figure out. The power imbalance between a show-runner and a young actress on their show makes it impossible for there to have been true consent by any of the women involved. Their careers were in the balance. He was their boss. Every "yes" was a forced "yes" simply by dint of the situation, and suggesting that it's open for debate with "as far as we know" or "everyone's line in the sand is different in this kind of thing" is dissembling and harmful to the ongoing discussion of men in power abusing that power to have sex with women.
posted by tzikeh at 5:57 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
At the end of the day, the show is about the impossibility of progress. It's basically both-sides-ism applied via the lens of space Western.
As the noble scoundrel protagonist, all Mal can do is navigate an irredeemably corrupt system while trying to maintain his personal honor, but there's no path forward, no way to make the world a better place for everyone, and so he's under no moral imperative to even try. It's okay for him to be a criminal because what else could he do?
Yeah, that's about how I'd put it too, but I didn't think of it as being so much "both sideism" as "neithersideism" in a sense, seeing it as I did as being almost explicitly anti-Trek in its basis.
It's unquestionable that framing the story in reference to the Confederacy was idiotic and gross, something that they tried to get around by having Gina Torres' Zoe stand as absolutely loyal to Mal, but that only made it more troublesome given its use of her to give moral standing to the white guy with the vision. And every bit as annoying was Mal's relationship with Inara for its reliance on a backwards looking perspective under guise of eventually turning around, a "have your cake and eat it too" thing Whedon used in his other series, and is still not uncommon in other media.
At the same time, the show had Whedon and co. at the top of their craft in terms of television storytelling and, at the time, there was some sense that challenge to authority/government still had some meaning to it which is largely absent today. Coming as the show did, right after Voyager went off the air as the third of three modern Trek series and the Bush era of government was just settling in, the attitude towards the Firefly universe was pushing back on something that isn't really seen in the same sense of significance today either in media or politics I think.
At least that's how I'd frame it if one takes the idea of the western tropes and the laws/rules of the worlds they visited as coming directly from the governing authorities, not as being an alternative to them. With the show having such a short run it's hard to say where they were going with it at the time completely, and I have suspicions they now might take things in a different direction, not that I'll be checking out the books to see, but as terrible as the glorification of "Rebs" and as tired as using Westerns as a model for analogy might be, hell, DS9 had messed with that too by that point, there was still some resonance to some of the storylines in the show regarding the Bushist "End of History" world view being perpetuated at the time.
It's not really a show that stands up to revisiting under a current liberal perspective given the dramatic shifts around acceptable conventions we've seen in recent years and in the even greater failings of government that accelerated that demand. It is, I suppose, completely apt that they would try to reboot it now in the worst moment for such a thing given how badly the show was handled from the get go. The interesting elements of the show and its universe aren't so unique that they need to be revisited. It's a show and group of characters that would be better off left to their moment and moved on from to something different that fits this era, or even better can outlive its moment, but Whedon hasn't done much of anything worth noting since Firefly, so he too is likely something that can be moved on from at this point, even as one can still look to the better elements of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly for some merits, as long as the worse elements are given note as well to avoid romanticizing it all.
Whedon had a clever comic book mentality to his shows, where the moral dilemmas were framed in ways that suited the hero form. We're still in a comic book era of media, but let's hope Black Panther and Wonder Woman are going to change that dynamic some to provide a more representative view and hope for more complexity and nuance than we've been given in the future.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:17 PM on February 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
As the noble scoundrel protagonist, all Mal can do is navigate an irredeemably corrupt system while trying to maintain his personal honor, but there's no path forward, no way to make the world a better place for everyone, and so he's under no moral imperative to even try. It's okay for him to be a criminal because what else could he do?
Yeah, that's about how I'd put it too, but I didn't think of it as being so much "both sideism" as "neithersideism" in a sense, seeing it as I did as being almost explicitly anti-Trek in its basis.
It's unquestionable that framing the story in reference to the Confederacy was idiotic and gross, something that they tried to get around by having Gina Torres' Zoe stand as absolutely loyal to Mal, but that only made it more troublesome given its use of her to give moral standing to the white guy with the vision. And every bit as annoying was Mal's relationship with Inara for its reliance on a backwards looking perspective under guise of eventually turning around, a "have your cake and eat it too" thing Whedon used in his other series, and is still not uncommon in other media.
At the same time, the show had Whedon and co. at the top of their craft in terms of television storytelling and, at the time, there was some sense that challenge to authority/government still had some meaning to it which is largely absent today. Coming as the show did, right after Voyager went off the air as the third of three modern Trek series and the Bush era of government was just settling in, the attitude towards the Firefly universe was pushing back on something that isn't really seen in the same sense of significance today either in media or politics I think.
At least that's how I'd frame it if one takes the idea of the western tropes and the laws/rules of the worlds they visited as coming directly from the governing authorities, not as being an alternative to them. With the show having such a short run it's hard to say where they were going with it at the time completely, and I have suspicions they now might take things in a different direction, not that I'll be checking out the books to see, but as terrible as the glorification of "Rebs" and as tired as using Westerns as a model for analogy might be, hell, DS9 had messed with that too by that point, there was still some resonance to some of the storylines in the show regarding the Bushist "End of History" world view being perpetuated at the time.
It's not really a show that stands up to revisiting under a current liberal perspective given the dramatic shifts around acceptable conventions we've seen in recent years and in the even greater failings of government that accelerated that demand. It is, I suppose, completely apt that they would try to reboot it now in the worst moment for such a thing given how badly the show was handled from the get go. The interesting elements of the show and its universe aren't so unique that they need to be revisited. It's a show and group of characters that would be better off left to their moment and moved on from to something different that fits this era, or even better can outlive its moment, but Whedon hasn't done much of anything worth noting since Firefly, so he too is likely something that can be moved on from at this point, even as one can still look to the better elements of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly for some merits, as long as the worse elements are given note as well to avoid romanticizing it all.
Whedon had a clever comic book mentality to his shows, where the moral dilemmas were framed in ways that suited the hero form. We're still in a comic book era of media, but let's hope Black Panther and Wonder Woman are going to change that dynamic some to provide a more representative view and hope for more complexity and nuance than we've been given in the future.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:17 PM on February 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
There's nothing to figure out. The power imbalance between a show-runner and a young actress on their show makes it impossible for there to have been true consent by any of the women involved
Pardon for not being clearer:
Joss Whedon is a garbage fire. I didn't know until Kai said what she did, now I do. I would never defend his misuse of his position. It is not possible for someone to have a properly consensual relationship with someone in their employ.
I apologize for being ambiguous and moving on. That's my fault. Your complaint is entirely fair and accepted, and I will be more mindful next time.
I was eager to talk about why Firefly is regressive as a setting, because I think that's important to lay that out in detail too. There isn't just one layer of bad here - there's a great deal to talk about, and I felt like that particular angle was underrepresented.
I hope we're good.
posted by mordax at 7:24 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Pardon for not being clearer:
Joss Whedon is a garbage fire. I didn't know until Kai said what she did, now I do. I would never defend his misuse of his position. It is not possible for someone to have a properly consensual relationship with someone in their employ.
I apologize for being ambiguous and moving on. That's my fault. Your complaint is entirely fair and accepted, and I will be more mindful next time.
I was eager to talk about why Firefly is regressive as a setting, because I think that's important to lay that out in detail too. There isn't just one layer of bad here - there's a great deal to talk about, and I felt like that particular angle was underrepresented.
I hope we're good.
posted by mordax at 7:24 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
And at the risk of making us not-good: everybody does have to decide who they're going to support and why for themselves. I've tried this the other way, and it's proven ineffective in all cases. I'm making a deliberate effort to focus more on talking about why I feel the way I do and hope that's persuasive instead.
I also really don't think 'Joss Whedon's terrible' is a sufficient reason to drop Firefly because there are a lot of other voices involved there, (I still love Alan Tudyk and Gina Torres and so on), but 'the entire universe is pretty icky too' was enough for me, so that's why my talk is focused where it is.
posted by mordax at 7:40 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
I also really don't think 'Joss Whedon's terrible' is a sufficient reason to drop Firefly because there are a lot of other voices involved there, (I still love Alan Tudyk and Gina Torres and so on), but 'the entire universe is pretty icky too' was enough for me, so that's why my talk is focused where it is.
posted by mordax at 7:40 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Expanse season 2 is on Amazon Prime now so I'll git it another try but I had a really hard time following that show. I don't know if I'm dim or the storytelling isn't very clear but I never quite knew what was going on.
They mumble real bad on that show.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 9:22 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
They mumble real bad on that show.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 9:22 PM on February 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
> Pogo_Fuzzybutt:
"Sorry, it was supposed to be a link to the wiki page. I'm on a 4500 mile roadtrip and posting from a gas stop. But, you got it sorted. Thanks ATG."
No wahala. All good on the journey? Safe travels and godspeed!
posted by Samizdata at 9:33 PM on February 10, 2018
"Sorry, it was supposed to be a link to the wiki page. I'm on a 4500 mile roadtrip and posting from a gas stop. But, you got it sorted. Thanks ATG."
No wahala. All good on the journey? Safe travels and godspeed!
posted by Samizdata at 9:33 PM on February 10, 2018
> under_petticoat_rule:
They mumble real bad on that show."
Yeah, and then you throw in the pidgin they use and it gets really frustrating for those of us with less than stellar hearing. That was the main reason I stopped watching it.
posted by Samizdata at 9:37 PM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
They mumble real bad on that show."
Yeah, and then you throw in the pidgin they use and it gets really frustrating for those of us with less than stellar hearing. That was the main reason I stopped watching it.
posted by Samizdata at 9:37 PM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I bet there ain't gonna be any Chinese people in the books, neither.
posted by AlSweigart at 10:01 PM on February 10, 2018
posted by AlSweigart at 10:01 PM on February 10, 2018
Given that I was unable to recognize the Mandarin spoken on the show as Mandarin, that might be for the best.
posted by d. z. wang at 3:53 AM on February 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by d. z. wang at 3:53 AM on February 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
mordax: "As the noble scoundrel protagonist, all Mal can do is navigate an irredeemably corrupt system while trying to maintain his personal honor, but there's no path forward, no way to make the world a better place for everyone, and so he's under no moral imperative to even try. It's okay for him to be a criminal because what else could he do?
"
I didn't realize this was something people were critical of this show about. I totally get it though as I just couldn't watch Mad Men (made it to episode 3 or 4) because there didn't seem to be a decent person on it. It was depressing as hell.
posted by Mitheral at 6:13 AM on February 11, 2018
"
I didn't realize this was something people were critical of this show about. I totally get it though as I just couldn't watch Mad Men (made it to episode 3 or 4) because there didn't seem to be a decent person on it. It was depressing as hell.
posted by Mitheral at 6:13 AM on February 11, 2018
I was initially excited about the Mandarin (linguistics major, took three years of Mandarin in college) because I thought we would get Chinese people in space, and get to see what a heavily-Chinese space colony would look like, maybe get some commentary on the US railroad system having been built heavily by Chinese folks.
And then we did not get that.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:59 AM on February 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
And then we did not get that.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:59 AM on February 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
really frustrating for those of us with less than stellar hearing
Are subtitles not an option in your media player of choice?
posted by HiroProtagonist at 5:22 PM on February 11, 2018
Are subtitles not an option in your media player of choice?
posted by HiroProtagonist at 5:22 PM on February 11, 2018
Are subtitles not an option in your media player of choice?I have gotten almost everyone I know addicted to subtitles whether they have good hearing or not, but in The Expanse the pidgin isn't translated (just as it isn't in the show's dialogue) so if you have difficulties picking up new languages I can see how that might be annoying. For me personally, I was able to follow the main thread of most belter lingo after six episodes or so, and the subtitles really helped me grok the context in order to make it easier to pick up. I highly recommend that anyone who had trouble following The Expanse try again with subtitling.
posted by xyzzy at 6:44 PM on February 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
I never cared for much of anything Whedon did, and the Firefly fandom annoyed the hell out of my with its volume and ubiquity. But seeing all the Firefly and Whedon fans mourning something they loved because of things largely outside the text is really sad. I hope the books are able to give what they enjoyed from the series without the bad.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:09 PM on February 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by pattern juggler at 8:09 PM on February 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think you can easily save Firefly by introducing the character of Festus Haggen
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:59 PM on February 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:59 PM on February 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
> HiroProtagonist:
"really frustrating for those of us with less than stellar hearing
Are subtitles not an option in your media player of choice?"
You are assuming the subtitles are always available and always good quality. (Says the guy who corrects subtitles all the time)
posted by Samizdata at 9:59 AM on February 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
"really frustrating for those of us with less than stellar hearing
Are subtitles not an option in your media player of choice?"
You are assuming the subtitles are always available and always good quality. (Says the guy who corrects subtitles all the time)
posted by Samizdata at 9:59 AM on February 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
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Why do I even care at this point
posted by not_the_water at 11:47 PM on February 9, 2018 [11 favorites]