This is What Happens When Bitcoin Miners Take Over Your Town
March 9, 2018 8:44 AM Subscribe
Eastern Washington had cheap power and tons of space. Then the suitcases of cash started arriving. EAST WENATCHEE, Washington—Hands on the wheel, eyes squinting against the winter sun, Lauren Miehe eases his Land Rover down the main drag and tells me how he used to spot promising sites to build a bitcoin mine, back in 2013, when he was a freshly arrived techie from Seattle and had just discovered this sleepy rural community.
Paul Roberts, writing for Politico.
A few recent bitcoin previouslies.
Paul Roberts, writing for Politico.
A few recent bitcoin previouslies.
Are we at peak bitcoin now, because the people realize the same principle from the US Gold rush: sell the supplies is how you make it rich, not by mining the product ? (That seems my takeaway from TFA -- sell/rent rigs, space etc is more profitable)
posted by k5.user at 8:53 AM on March 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by k5.user at 8:53 AM on March 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
Walla Walla, home of famous sweet bitconions
posted by cortex at 9:07 AM on March 9, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by cortex at 9:07 AM on March 9, 2018 [27 favorites]
Chelan places moratorium on bitcoin mining within city limits, Wenatchee bans at-home Bitcoin mining for one year.
Looks like Chelan was going to raise rates two years ago. This seems to apply to "data centers," which includes bitcoin mining, and other financial products.
Walla Walla, home of famous sweet bitconions
I was gonna ding you for not knowing the difference between central and SE washington, but after spending five minutes trying to come up with an apple-themed bitcoin joke name, I bow to your topicality.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:22 AM on March 9, 2018 [25 favorites]
Looks like Chelan was going to raise rates two years ago. This seems to apply to "data centers," which includes bitcoin mining, and other financial products.
Walla Walla, home of famous sweet bitconions
I was gonna ding you for not knowing the difference between central and SE washington, but after spending five minutes trying to come up with an apple-themed bitcoin joke name, I bow to your topicality.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:22 AM on March 9, 2018 [25 favorites]
A friend of a friend got the jump on this in 2012, I believe, but he started 45 minutes east out in Quincy. Bitcoin mining has been booming there for longer, it was just hidden better, before all the land-grabbing and when it was still under $100/bitcoin.
The biggest difference is Quincy has existing infrastructure and support for big mining operations out there, huge server farms that are built for more stable ventures like Microsoft's cloud platform. You didn't need to build makeshift housing, just rent occupancy from one of the farms out there and stick your own hardware in.
Last time I checked, the guy is now semi-retired(?) in his late 20s and spends most of his time doing an impossible amount of drugs and DJing for fun. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Snacks at 9:23 AM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
The biggest difference is Quincy has existing infrastructure and support for big mining operations out there, huge server farms that are built for more stable ventures like Microsoft's cloud platform. You didn't need to build makeshift housing, just rent occupancy from one of the farms out there and stick your own hardware in.
Last time I checked, the guy is now semi-retired(?) in his late 20s and spends most of his time doing an impossible amount of drugs and DJing for fun. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Snacks at 9:23 AM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
This seems like a great time to set up a growhouse.
posted by enn at 9:27 AM on March 9, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by enn at 9:27 AM on March 9, 2018 [11 favorites]
Bitcoin is such an ecological disaster.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:34 AM on March 9, 2018 [45 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 9:34 AM on March 9, 2018 [45 favorites]
So, are there people talking about the environmental sustainability of cryptocurrency mining? The ridiculous (and growing) energy requirements for diminishing returns makes the whole enterprise seem like an allegory for misappropriating valuable resources. I know 1 guy who is into cryptocurrency trading, but he's also a massive environmentalist, and I can't help but think there's a massive contradiction there.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:35 AM on March 9, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:35 AM on March 9, 2018 [13 favorites]
So, are there people talking about the environmental sustainability of cryptocurrency mining?
It's a known issue for sure.
posted by theorique at 9:40 AM on March 9, 2018
It's a known issue for sure.
posted by theorique at 9:40 AM on March 9, 2018
I mean, it's definitely possible to run a bitcoin mining setup off renewable energy. The environmental impact in terms of emissions mostly depends on your electricity source.
I think that the Wenatchee area mostly gets it energy right now from hydroelectric dams, which is why electricity is so cheap out there. There's obviously a huge up-front environmental impact for the construction of the dam itself but then not a whole lot per-MW after that, at least in terms of carbon emissions. This is partly why eastern Washington is so popular with traditional datacenters already.
One of the articles that I turned up in a quick Google says that increased demand has power suppliers looking to build new plants, possibly nuclear but probably more likely natural gas, which would have a substantial per-MW emissions impact compared to what they currently have. So if demand keeps increasing, there could be a very real impact for mining there in the future. And of course not all miners are using clean sources.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:42 AM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think that the Wenatchee area mostly gets it energy right now from hydroelectric dams, which is why electricity is so cheap out there. There's obviously a huge up-front environmental impact for the construction of the dam itself but then not a whole lot per-MW after that, at least in terms of carbon emissions. This is partly why eastern Washington is so popular with traditional datacenters already.
One of the articles that I turned up in a quick Google says that increased demand has power suppliers looking to build new plants, possibly nuclear but probably more likely natural gas, which would have a substantial per-MW emissions impact compared to what they currently have. So if demand keeps increasing, there could be a very real impact for mining there in the future. And of course not all miners are using clean sources.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:42 AM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
Mining is essentially burning energy to do meaningless work that has been artificially defined to correlate to some monetary value, no? Given that most of our power is still carbon-based, it will mean catastrophic environmental impacts, because we still don't deal with the externalities of our power supply meaningfully.
All that carbon-free power in eastern WA could be going to power homes and businesses, replacing the need for carbon-intensive power and benefitting the globe as a whole, but instead it's being consumed to create some abstract value for individuals. Sadly, this is consistent with Western capitalism these days.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:49 AM on March 9, 2018 [55 favorites]
All that carbon-free power in eastern WA could be going to power homes and businesses, replacing the need for carbon-intensive power and benefitting the globe as a whole, but instead it's being consumed to create some abstract value for individuals. Sadly, this is consistent with Western capitalism these days.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:49 AM on March 9, 2018 [55 favorites]
Bitcoin feels to me very much like a the invention of spam. It's good for absolutely nothing and is just this perpetual waste of computing resources that we just have to live with and include as annoying overhead whenever we design technology from now on.
Because the real physical limits on power production and computing hardware weren't enough of a challenge, I guess? We wouldn't want power and computing to be too inexpensive and affordable.
posted by straight at 9:50 AM on March 9, 2018 [24 favorites]
Because the real physical limits on power production and computing hardware weren't enough of a challenge, I guess? We wouldn't want power and computing to be too inexpensive and affordable.
posted by straight at 9:50 AM on March 9, 2018 [24 favorites]
I've seen Bitcoin advocates argue that cryptocurrency will be good for the environment in the long term because it provides a financial incentive to develop new clean energy sources. Why those sources are necessarily going to be clean is never explained, somehow.
posted by skymt at 9:58 AM on March 9, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by skymt at 9:58 AM on March 9, 2018 [11 favorites]
most non-bitcoin systems are scrambling to move to some much better system rather than mining by computing hashes.
posted by vogon_poet at 10:00 AM on March 9, 2018
posted by vogon_poet at 10:00 AM on March 9, 2018
I was gonna ding you for not knowing the difference between central and SE washington, but after spending five minutes trying to come up with an apple-themed bitcoin joke name, I bow to your topicality.
Too bad - I feel like there's gotta be a sick braeburn in here somewhere.
posted by nickmark at 10:06 AM on March 9, 2018 [24 favorites]
Too bad - I feel like there's gotta be a sick braeburn in here somewhere.
posted by nickmark at 10:06 AM on March 9, 2018 [24 favorites]
This is so silly. Just double or triple the price of power after the first 100 kwh or whatever the average monthly household usage is. So normal people are unaffected and the bitcoin idiots pay. If it has to go to a public vote, then instead lower the base price 5% or so, so the general public sees a rate decrease paid for by the miners.
posted by Slinga at 10:16 AM on March 9, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by Slinga at 10:16 AM on March 9, 2018 [19 favorites]
The many, many parallels with the various US gold rushes ought to be a cautionary tale, but people tend not to learn from history, or realize when they're replaying it.
From the article:
Miehe still runs his original mine, a half-megawatt operation not far from the carwash. But his main job these days is managing hosting sites for other miners and connecting outsiders with insiders—and he’s OK with that. He sold off some of his bitcoin stack, just after Christmas. He’s still bullish on crypto, and on the basin’s long-term prospects. But he no longer has any appetite for the race for scale. Gone are the glory days when commercial miners could self-finance with their own stacks. Today, you need outside financing—debt—which, for Miehe, who now has two young children, would mean an unacceptable level of stress.
As k5.user points out, someone's caught on. Aside from a small minority of prospectors who were the first to arrive at a particular streambed and found literal gold nuggets, the people who made a fortune in the gold rush were the outfitters. Hardly anyone made a profit panning for gold....
Bitcoin is such an ecological disaster.
posted by Existential Dread
....so when simply panning for gold or placer mining ceased to be profitable, those seeking their fortune had to turn to hydraulic mining (spraying massive jets of water at a hillside to make the hillside come tumbling down into the river so you could sift through it and find the gold) or deep-shaft/stamp mill mining. Neither was cheap, and these operations could only be set up by corporations with enough capital to get them running. The miners were no longer the prospectors, they were the manual laborers. The corporations reaped the profits.
They also wreaked havoc on the environment. California still suffers the effects of hydraulic mining. Hydraulic mining both changed the course of rivers and made the rivers shallower and unable to carry as much water as they needed to without overflowing their banks. Sacramento has the second-highest flood risk in the US (behind New Orleans), as it sits at the confluence of the American and Sacramento rivers -- the gold rush rivers. Hydraulic mining from the 1850s is largely responsible for Sacramento's flood risk.
There's also the lingering soil contamination from the mercury and arsenic used in gold mining.
It's the same story: Booms and busts, with literal boomtowns. The payoff dwindles over time. The value of gold/bitcoin trends downward, but let's keep trying, because maybe it will come back! But oh no, it's becoming increasingly difficult to mine. It's fine, let's use increasingly brute-forced mining techniques! But oh no, those are doing harm to the environment, everyone please look the other way. It's fine! It's fine! There's money to be made! Lots and lots of money! Except in the end, it's not the miners who take it home, and there will come a bust, and the rest of us are left dealing with the effects, for years.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:16 AM on March 9, 2018 [50 favorites]
From the article:
Miehe still runs his original mine, a half-megawatt operation not far from the carwash. But his main job these days is managing hosting sites for other miners and connecting outsiders with insiders—and he’s OK with that. He sold off some of his bitcoin stack, just after Christmas. He’s still bullish on crypto, and on the basin’s long-term prospects. But he no longer has any appetite for the race for scale. Gone are the glory days when commercial miners could self-finance with their own stacks. Today, you need outside financing—debt—which, for Miehe, who now has two young children, would mean an unacceptable level of stress.
As k5.user points out, someone's caught on. Aside from a small minority of prospectors who were the first to arrive at a particular streambed and found literal gold nuggets, the people who made a fortune in the gold rush were the outfitters. Hardly anyone made a profit panning for gold....
Bitcoin is such an ecological disaster.
posted by Existential Dread
....so when simply panning for gold or placer mining ceased to be profitable, those seeking their fortune had to turn to hydraulic mining (spraying massive jets of water at a hillside to make the hillside come tumbling down into the river so you could sift through it and find the gold) or deep-shaft/stamp mill mining. Neither was cheap, and these operations could only be set up by corporations with enough capital to get them running. The miners were no longer the prospectors, they were the manual laborers. The corporations reaped the profits.
They also wreaked havoc on the environment. California still suffers the effects of hydraulic mining. Hydraulic mining both changed the course of rivers and made the rivers shallower and unable to carry as much water as they needed to without overflowing their banks. Sacramento has the second-highest flood risk in the US (behind New Orleans), as it sits at the confluence of the American and Sacramento rivers -- the gold rush rivers. Hydraulic mining from the 1850s is largely responsible for Sacramento's flood risk.
There's also the lingering soil contamination from the mercury and arsenic used in gold mining.
It's the same story: Booms and busts, with literal boomtowns. The payoff dwindles over time. The value of gold/bitcoin trends downward, but let's keep trying, because maybe it will come back! But oh no, it's becoming increasingly difficult to mine. It's fine, let's use increasingly brute-forced mining techniques! But oh no, those are doing harm to the environment, everyone please look the other way. It's fine! It's fine! There's money to be made! Lots and lots of money! Except in the end, it's not the miners who take it home, and there will come a bust, and the rest of us are left dealing with the effects, for years.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:16 AM on March 9, 2018 [50 favorites]
I can imagine the desolate landscape full of stacks of rusting containers, improvised high-voltage transmission cables and heaps of burnt-out graphics cards once Bitcoin craters and the carpetbaggers cut their losses; it will look like a Simon Stålenhag painting.
posted by acb at 10:16 AM on March 9, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by acb at 10:16 AM on March 9, 2018 [8 favorites]
I can think of no better metaphor for the late-stage financialized capitalism that rules our economy. Huge amounts of resources being wasted to produce money for a small cadre of owners who are producing literally nothing of any value to anybody.
Except this is done by little guys on the Internet instead of established elites on Wall Street. As above, so below, I guess.
posted by Naberius at 10:32 AM on March 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
Except this is done by little guys on the Internet instead of established elites on Wall Street. As above, so below, I guess.
posted by Naberius at 10:32 AM on March 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
I was gonna ding you for not knowing the difference between central and SE washington, but after spending five minutes trying to come up with an apple-themed bitcoin joke name, I bow to your topicality.
something something McIntosh
posted by duffell at 10:37 AM on March 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
something something McIntosh
posted by duffell at 10:37 AM on March 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
Why not reroute that mining heat into something useful?
posted by themadthinker at 10:41 AM on March 9, 2018
posted by themadthinker at 10:41 AM on March 9, 2018
Walla Walla, home of famous sweet bitconions
Maybe they'll change the town's name to "Moolah Moolah".
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:43 AM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Maybe they'll change the town's name to "Moolah Moolah".
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:43 AM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
This blows my mind. This sort of thing should make everyone who ever thought Bitcoin was worth anything run for the hills.
Money in its various forms is layers of abstraction from an IOU for goods or services. Currency is the government giving out vouchers for later payment of taxes, that can be used for commerce in the intermediary. The worst thing you can say about it is that it's generated by fiat, from nothing comes currency.
Bitcoin, on the other hand? It's a token of destruction. "This bitcoin represents gigawatts of power, just wasted." What sane person thinks that's a system of commerce? "These ashes are worth $10,000 because they're from an antique table I burned to make them." No, you idiot, they're just ashes now.
posted by explosion at 10:45 AM on March 9, 2018 [31 favorites]
Money in its various forms is layers of abstraction from an IOU for goods or services. Currency is the government giving out vouchers for later payment of taxes, that can be used for commerce in the intermediary. The worst thing you can say about it is that it's generated by fiat, from nothing comes currency.
Bitcoin, on the other hand? It's a token of destruction. "This bitcoin represents gigawatts of power, just wasted." What sane person thinks that's a system of commerce? "These ashes are worth $10,000 because they're from an antique table I burned to make them." No, you idiot, they're just ashes now.
posted by explosion at 10:45 AM on March 9, 2018 [31 favorites]
Sadly, this is consistent with Western capitalism these days.
Sorry to put a pin in your weird Orientalist bubble, but you do realize that the overwhelming majority of Bitcoin activity (at least 80%, but up to 98%, depending on what data you believe) is in China, right?
posted by Itaxpica at 10:58 AM on March 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
Sorry to put a pin in your weird Orientalist bubble, but you do realize that the overwhelming majority of Bitcoin activity (at least 80%, but up to 98%, depending on what data you believe) is in China, right?
posted by Itaxpica at 10:58 AM on March 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
This blows my mind. This sort of thing should make everyone who ever thought Bitcoin was worth anything run for the hills.
Bitcoin is worth exactly what somebody will pay you for it, in fiat currency, gold, goods, services, or anything else of value. Currently it's in the ballpark of $10,000USD per bitcoin [*]. Maybe it won't be worth something in a year or ten years. Maybe it's morally suspect that bitcoin is worth anything at all - I don't have an opinion on that. But right now, the market says that it's worth around $10K.
[*] $8898 for the pedantic.
posted by theorique at 10:59 AM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Bitcoin is worth exactly what somebody will pay you for it, in fiat currency, gold, goods, services, or anything else of value. Currently it's in the ballpark of $10,000USD per bitcoin [*]. Maybe it won't be worth something in a year or ten years. Maybe it's morally suspect that bitcoin is worth anything at all - I don't have an opinion on that. But right now, the market says that it's worth around $10K.
[*] $8898 for the pedantic.
posted by theorique at 10:59 AM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Someday this will be seen as the greatest squandering of resources since the Tower of Babel.
posted by mygoditsbob at 11:02 AM on March 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by mygoditsbob at 11:02 AM on March 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's only going to be in the dust and ashes of this earth that people realize they can't eat bitcoins.
But they can eat bitcoin miners.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:02 AM on March 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
But they can eat bitcoin miners.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:02 AM on March 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
1. bitconion
2. sick braeburn
3. something something McIntosh???
4. PROFIT!!!
posted by mwhybark at 11:05 AM on March 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
2. sick braeburn
3. something something McIntosh???
4. PROFIT!!!
posted by mwhybark at 11:05 AM on March 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
theorique makes a point that I've tried to articulate for years.
I abhor bitcoin: its miners and traders and enablers, its effects and consequences, its philosophy, its implementation, its fortunes and misfortunes... just about everything it represents. It is the currency equivalent of a brodude and oh my god I hate it even more for making me say the word brodude.
But no matter how much I hate it, it isn't worthless, and really, it's no better or worse than many other instruments, indices, funds, or commodities I may equally choose to invest in. For example if I bought Goldman Sachs stock I would be investing in something equally - or more - "worthless" and harmful. I'd love to feel better by mocking the thing but man, white dudes brought to bear their white dude power on believing in its worth so now it's worth something. It fucking sucks but there it is.
posted by MiraK at 11:08 AM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
I abhor bitcoin: its miners and traders and enablers, its effects and consequences, its philosophy, its implementation, its fortunes and misfortunes... just about everything it represents. It is the currency equivalent of a brodude and oh my god I hate it even more for making me say the word brodude.
But no matter how much I hate it, it isn't worthless, and really, it's no better or worse than many other instruments, indices, funds, or commodities I may equally choose to invest in. For example if I bought Goldman Sachs stock I would be investing in something equally - or more - "worthless" and harmful. I'd love to feel better by mocking the thing but man, white dudes brought to bear their white dude power on believing in its worth so now it's worth something. It fucking sucks but there it is.
posted by MiraK at 11:08 AM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
In some ways, bitcoin is just a degree of difference of what already happens on the internet. We already spend an immense amount of money, time, and electricity to watch a live stream of someone playing video games or argue about continuity errors of TV shows.
And another way to look at it is that Bitcoin is gambling and people really love gambling.
posted by FJT at 11:17 AM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
And another way to look at it is that Bitcoin is gambling and people really love gambling.
posted by FJT at 11:17 AM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
This seems like a great time to set up a growhouse.
Not in WA state. Since it's been legalized it's about as profitable and risky as setting up a brewery, restaurant or a for-profit vegetable farm or apple farm or something. It's not an easy buck, it's a lot of hard work and scrutiny to get a license and if you don't know what you're doing your competition will eat you alive and you'll lose your shirt.
Which is fine, as it should be and it can be an honest living, but you're not going to become a kingpin rolling in piles of "fuck you" money growing cannabis in WA state. Legal or illegal.
And, as these things go, the people who knew how to grow before legalization often became consultants and "outfitters". They're now charging pretty high consultancy fees to set up investors with expertise and growing systems and doing things like sourcing genetic stock.
And trying to compete with the legal market is basically pointless because the prices are like a quarter or less the pre-legal market prices. Pretty much everyone in WA just goes to legal shops for their cannabis now because it's an easy choice.
It's a clean, well lit store with a wide selection and variety of traceable product that's actually less expensive than the black market was, and you don't have to sit on some gross couch pretending to play Xbox for an hour to pick up your choice of one kind of dodgy weed.
And, well, despite all of this most of the future of cannabis in WA state seems to be in even more energy efficient outdoor or greenhouse/hybrid lighting grows. They don't have to hide indoors with artificial light any more, and a lot of strains are being bred and developed for outdoor growing even this far north in WA state.
There are active outdoor farms in my county that you can see from the road, and even for this old stoner it's cool and a little unsettling to see giant fields of tree-sized plants just sitting there in plain view like a bunch of lettuce.
Oh, and bringing it back to the thread topic: A lot of illicit cannabis farmers definitely jumped on bitcoin mining very early on. They weren't at all strangers to the idea of turning electricity into money and they already often had the skills to do their own electrical work and power distribution setups, and were even already adept at cooling and temperature control.
And any illicit grower is going to be interested in the concept of virtualized banking and money transfer if it is at all more secure and anonymous than cash or mainstream banking.
posted by loquacious at 11:37 AM on March 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
Not in WA state. Since it's been legalized it's about as profitable and risky as setting up a brewery, restaurant or a for-profit vegetable farm or apple farm or something. It's not an easy buck, it's a lot of hard work and scrutiny to get a license and if you don't know what you're doing your competition will eat you alive and you'll lose your shirt.
Which is fine, as it should be and it can be an honest living, but you're not going to become a kingpin rolling in piles of "fuck you" money growing cannabis in WA state. Legal or illegal.
And, as these things go, the people who knew how to grow before legalization often became consultants and "outfitters". They're now charging pretty high consultancy fees to set up investors with expertise and growing systems and doing things like sourcing genetic stock.
And trying to compete with the legal market is basically pointless because the prices are like a quarter or less the pre-legal market prices. Pretty much everyone in WA just goes to legal shops for their cannabis now because it's an easy choice.
It's a clean, well lit store with a wide selection and variety of traceable product that's actually less expensive than the black market was, and you don't have to sit on some gross couch pretending to play Xbox for an hour to pick up your choice of one kind of dodgy weed.
And, well, despite all of this most of the future of cannabis in WA state seems to be in even more energy efficient outdoor or greenhouse/hybrid lighting grows. They don't have to hide indoors with artificial light any more, and a lot of strains are being bred and developed for outdoor growing even this far north in WA state.
There are active outdoor farms in my county that you can see from the road, and even for this old stoner it's cool and a little unsettling to see giant fields of tree-sized plants just sitting there in plain view like a bunch of lettuce.
Oh, and bringing it back to the thread topic: A lot of illicit cannabis farmers definitely jumped on bitcoin mining very early on. They weren't at all strangers to the idea of turning electricity into money and they already often had the skills to do their own electrical work and power distribution setups, and were even already adept at cooling and temperature control.
And any illicit grower is going to be interested in the concept of virtualized banking and money transfer if it is at all more secure and anonymous than cash or mainstream banking.
posted by loquacious at 11:37 AM on March 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yes, yes, we all understand that something is worth whatever someone will pay for it.
Which is why it's imperative to undermine the demand for Bitcoin. Or honestly, anything at all where people want to buy it "because it's worth something."
When we talk about its "worth," we're talking about its underlying value, not its market value. Like, even if you hate the Pontiac Aztek, it's a car that gets you from point A to point B; it has a floor value because it does that job.
Stocks have a floor value because so long as the company has a positive net worth, their assets can be liquidated and that money can be distributed to stockholders.
Even Beanie Babies! Collectability aside, $3 for a toy to give a child is cheap.
But Bitcoins? The floor is literal zero. And yeah, you could say that about the US dollar, too, but the likelihood of Bitcoin falling out is drastically higher than the American economy collapsing into nothingness.
I mean, I guess there's the entertainment value of Bitcoin, but are people not tired of it yet?
posted by explosion at 11:42 AM on March 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Which is why it's imperative to undermine the demand for Bitcoin. Or honestly, anything at all where people want to buy it "because it's worth something."
When we talk about its "worth," we're talking about its underlying value, not its market value. Like, even if you hate the Pontiac Aztek, it's a car that gets you from point A to point B; it has a floor value because it does that job.
Stocks have a floor value because so long as the company has a positive net worth, their assets can be liquidated and that money can be distributed to stockholders.
Even Beanie Babies! Collectability aside, $3 for a toy to give a child is cheap.
But Bitcoins? The floor is literal zero. And yeah, you could say that about the US dollar, too, but the likelihood of Bitcoin falling out is drastically higher than the American economy collapsing into nothingness.
I mean, I guess there's the entertainment value of Bitcoin, but are people not tired of it yet?
posted by explosion at 11:42 AM on March 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Wait, if a large mongolian mine spends (rounded) $40,000 on electricity a day (at 4c/kwh), and mines 70 coins in that time, that puts the cost of mining at around, uh... $600 per coin. If we round up to $1,000 per coin in cooling costs etc, that's maybe an 8x return on raw materials.
Obviously there are insane upfront equipment costs and so on. But I can see why greed has overwhelmed good sense.
posted by Richard Daly at 11:52 AM on March 9, 2018
Obviously there are insane upfront equipment costs and so on. But I can see why greed has overwhelmed good sense.
posted by Richard Daly at 11:52 AM on March 9, 2018
Which is why it's imperative to undermine the demand for Bitcoin.
Why? If it's truly worth nothing (in the "should" sense, not the "is" sense), the market will eventually show that. If it's a tulip-style bubble, in which case the people holding it are all crazy, what's the value in prematurely crashing it? (Tangent: I suspect that if that happened, there would be flight to Ethereum, Litecoin, Ripple, and the other menagerie of competing altcoins that now exist.)
If there's some genuine worth there - store of value, payment network, pseudonymous transaction ability, whatever - then the market should reflect that as well.
posted by theorique at 12:01 PM on March 9, 2018
Why? If it's truly worth nothing (in the "should" sense, not the "is" sense), the market will eventually show that. If it's a tulip-style bubble, in which case the people holding it are all crazy, what's the value in prematurely crashing it? (Tangent: I suspect that if that happened, there would be flight to Ethereum, Litecoin, Ripple, and the other menagerie of competing altcoins that now exist.)
If there's some genuine worth there - store of value, payment network, pseudonymous transaction ability, whatever - then the market should reflect that as well.
posted by theorique at 12:01 PM on March 9, 2018
The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, etc.
posted by clawsoon at 12:03 PM on March 9, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 12:03 PM on March 9, 2018 [10 favorites]
Exactly. I would say, "if you're so convinced that Bitcoin isn't worth anything, then short it", but I recognize that that might be a financially unsound strategy, at least in the short term. Prediction is very difficult, especially about future events.
posted by theorique at 12:08 PM on March 9, 2018
posted by theorique at 12:08 PM on March 9, 2018
I'm floating a novel currency of my own: buttcoin - based upon the intrinsic value of a well-shaped ass. Mefiers are welcome to get in at the ... bottom ... of this exciting new opportunity!
posted by Chitownfats at 12:10 PM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Chitownfats at 12:10 PM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
Why? Maybe because it is an emerging environmental disaster?
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:10 PM on March 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:10 PM on March 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm floating a novel currency of my own: buttcoin - based upon the intrinsic value of a well-shaped ass. Mefiers are welcome to get in at the ... bottom ... of this exciting new opportunity!
They're way ahead of you.
posted by loquacious at 12:14 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
They're way ahead of you.
posted by loquacious at 12:14 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Even the "joke" coins are happy to suck up your real dollars.
posted by ejoey at 12:18 PM on March 9, 2018
posted by ejoey at 12:18 PM on March 9, 2018
Why? If it's truly worth nothing (in the "should" sense, not the "is" sense), the market will eventually show that. If it's a tulip-style bubble, in which case the people holding it are all crazy, what's the value in prematurely crashing it?
let me scan back up a few comments for you...
increased demand has power suppliers looking to build new plants, possibly nuclear but probably more likely natural gas, which would have a substantial per-MW emissions impact compared to what they currently have.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:37 PM on March 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
let me scan back up a few comments for you...
increased demand has power suppliers looking to build new plants, possibly nuclear but probably more likely natural gas, which would have a substantial per-MW emissions impact compared to what they currently have.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:37 PM on March 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
It's only going to be in the dust and ashes of this earth that people realize they can't eat bitcoins.
I'm fairly certain you can't eat physical money either.*
*except for these
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:39 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm fairly certain you can't eat physical money either.*
*except for these
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:39 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Walla Walla, home of famous sweet bitconions
Also home of the Little Giant Vacuum Cleaner Company.
posted by slogger at 12:47 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also home of the Little Giant Vacuum Cleaner Company.
posted by slogger at 12:47 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
One of the problems with "just raise the rates for Bitcoiners" is that, as I said in my previous comment, these particular areas are being chosen by Bitcoiners for the exact same reasons that they're already popular with traditional datacenters. From the utility company's perspective, there is no way to distinguish JoBloMiner electricity demand from Amazon S3 demand, nor is there any particular incentive for them to do so. Legally, you might be able to work out some kind of tax structure that discourages miners while not discouraging Amazon datacenters, but again: there's not any particular incentive for the local governments to do so.
As for growhouses, I actually saw a thing a little while ago about a guy who was diverting the waste heat from his mining rig to his closet grow op. So, you know, por que no los dos?
posted by tobascodagama at 1:02 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
As for growhouses, I actually saw a thing a little while ago about a guy who was diverting the waste heat from his mining rig to his closet grow op. So, you know, por que no los dos?
posted by tobascodagama at 1:02 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
...
???
Ctrl+F 'Malachi'
0/0 Hmmm...nothing.
Salcido
0/0 What? Still nothing? You all are going to make me do this...
Ctrl+F 'dildo'
0/0 What? Not one of you have noticed that the blurry picture of Malachi Salcido's servers make it look like here is a man surrounded by about 5000 multicolored glowing dildos all pointed at him? I mean, if ever there was a stronger metaphor than the head of a get rich quick bitcoining operation... cock and balls... that's all I see... a room filled with neon blue, green, pink and orange cock and balls...
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:16 PM on March 9, 2018
???
Ctrl+F 'Malachi'
0/0 Hmmm...nothing.
Salcido
0/0 What? Still nothing? You all are going to make me do this...
Ctrl+F 'dildo'
0/0 What? Not one of you have noticed that the blurry picture of Malachi Salcido's servers make it look like here is a man surrounded by about 5000 multicolored glowing dildos all pointed at him? I mean, if ever there was a stronger metaphor than the head of a get rich quick bitcoining operation... cock and balls... that's all I see... a room filled with neon blue, green, pink and orange cock and balls...
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:16 PM on March 9, 2018
But Bitcoins? The floor is literal zero. And yeah, you could say that about the US dollar, too, but the likelihood of Bitcoin falling out is drastically higher than the American economy collapsing into nothingness.
I mean, I guess there's the entertainment value of Bitcoin, but are people not tired of it yet?
i mean as you say there's zero worth in US dollars, except you have to use them to pay taxes.
similarly BTC is the only way to pay transaction fees on the bitcoin network; registering a bitcoin transaction has at least some small intrinsic value as it's a timestamped, very-difficult-to-tamper-with record and can include extra information like, say, a small note, or a hash of an important document. there are schemes for "notarizing" things on the blockchain, for instance.
is that little bit of real value enough to hang a much higher speculative price on? probably not forever. they're advertising cryptocurrency investment strategies on the local sports talk AM channel.
posted by vogon_poet at 1:25 PM on March 9, 2018
I mean, I guess there's the entertainment value of Bitcoin, but are people not tired of it yet?
i mean as you say there's zero worth in US dollars, except you have to use them to pay taxes.
similarly BTC is the only way to pay transaction fees on the bitcoin network; registering a bitcoin transaction has at least some small intrinsic value as it's a timestamped, very-difficult-to-tamper-with record and can include extra information like, say, a small note, or a hash of an important document. there are schemes for "notarizing" things on the blockchain, for instance.
is that little bit of real value enough to hang a much higher speculative price on? probably not forever. they're advertising cryptocurrency investment strategies on the local sports talk AM channel.
posted by vogon_poet at 1:25 PM on March 9, 2018
The Toronto Wealth Expo - formerly the "REAL ESTATE WEALTH EXPO" - is, this year, the "REAL ESTATE, BITCOIN WEALTH EXPO."
It features noted cryptocurrency experts Sylvester Stallone, Alex Rodriguez, and Pitbull.
posted by clawsoon at 1:36 PM on March 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
It features noted cryptocurrency experts Sylvester Stallone, Alex Rodriguez, and Pitbull.
posted by clawsoon at 1:36 PM on March 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
Paris Hilton has also endorsed LydianCoin, "The World's First A.I. Big Data Marketing Cloud for BlockChain".
posted by vogon_poet at 1:45 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by vogon_poet at 1:45 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
> Might as well, lord knows there's nothing else going on in Wenatchee
14' of side-eye from the Skookum sign
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:13 PM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
14' of side-eye from the Skookum sign
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:13 PM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
Paris Hilton has also endorsed LydianCoin, "The World's First A.I. Big Data Marketing Cloud for BlockChain".
Well gee whillikers, sign me right up then!
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:14 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well gee whillikers, sign me right up then!
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:14 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
To be fair to Stallone, Rodriguez, and Pitbull, their Bitcoin "investment" advice will probably be as good as that of any of the "experts" they have pumping at the event.
posted by clawsoon at 2:35 PM on March 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 2:35 PM on March 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
they're advertising cryptocurrency investment strategies on the local sports talk AM channel.
The Toronto Wealth Expo - formerly the "REAL ESTATE WEALTH EXPO" - is, this year, the "REAL ESTATE, BITCOIN WEALTH EXPO." It features noted cryptocurrency experts Sylvester Stallone, Alex Rodriguez, and Pitbull.
Paris Hilton has also endorsed LydianCoin, "The World's First A.I. Big Data Marketing Cloud for BlockChain".
This... is a lot of red flags. I mean, short of sending the Lost in Space robot door-to-door to scream "Danger, Will Robinson" in peoples' faces, I'm not sure what more signals can be sent.
posted by mhum at 2:58 PM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
The Toronto Wealth Expo - formerly the "REAL ESTATE WEALTH EXPO" - is, this year, the "REAL ESTATE, BITCOIN WEALTH EXPO." It features noted cryptocurrency experts Sylvester Stallone, Alex Rodriguez, and Pitbull.
Paris Hilton has also endorsed LydianCoin, "The World's First A.I. Big Data Marketing Cloud for BlockChain".
This... is a lot of red flags. I mean, short of sending the Lost in Space robot door-to-door to scream "Danger, Will Robinson" in peoples' faces, I'm not sure what more signals can be sent.
posted by mhum at 2:58 PM on March 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
I may be oversimplifying, as I know very little about how electricity works on a large scale. However, if these people hadn't moved in and started sucking down the megawatts, maybe the coal burning plant could be shut down.
Not all power generated in Washington State is hydro. We even have nuclear! Of course, it's part of the Hanford Site, but no big deal.
If some of that crypto-currency could be used to help clean the place up, maybe I'd be less angry. But since I don't understand crypto-currency either, because it doesn't seem to be even as valuable as tulip bulbs or pineapples, I'll just be judgemental and angry in private.
posted by monopas at 3:34 PM on March 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
Not all power generated in Washington State is hydro. We even have nuclear! Of course, it's part of the Hanford Site, but no big deal.
If some of that crypto-currency could be used to help clean the place up, maybe I'd be less angry. But since I don't understand crypto-currency either, because it doesn't seem to be even as valuable as tulip bulbs or pineapples, I'll just be judgemental and angry in private.
posted by monopas at 3:34 PM on March 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
Which is why it's imperative to undermine the demand for Bitcoin.
Go right ahead. I'll watch.
posted by happyroach at 4:23 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Go right ahead. I'll watch.
posted by happyroach at 4:23 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
If I woke up one morning to see bitcoin was at $5 I could die happy. Am I a bad person?
posted by freecellwizard at 4:32 PM on March 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 4:32 PM on March 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
As I recall, in the past (at least) the usual power output of Grand Coulee is far, far below nameplate. A minor adjustment ought to cover a few 10MW miners.
posted by Twang at 6:55 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Twang at 6:55 PM on March 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
As I recall, in the past (at least) the usual power output of Grand Coulee is far, far below nameplate. A minor adjustment ought to cover a few 10MW miners.
I don't think the ruling affects Grand Coulee, but a federal judge has mandated increased spill on a number of the Columbia and Snake river dams this year. Hydropower isn't going away, but they are having to balance it more with other ecological needs like fish survival these days. Bitcoin mining is such an embarrassing waste of what is a precious resource.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:16 PM on March 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
I don't think the ruling affects Grand Coulee, but a federal judge has mandated increased spill on a number of the Columbia and Snake river dams this year. Hydropower isn't going away, but they are having to balance it more with other ecological needs like fish survival these days. Bitcoin mining is such an embarrassing waste of what is a precious resource.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:16 PM on March 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
I hear that the TVA vastly overestimated power usage this last time around. Perhaps setting up in Bristol TN is a bitcoin haven to-be
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:37 PM on March 9, 2018
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:37 PM on March 9, 2018
I would say, "if you're so convinced that Bitcoin isn't worth anything, then short it", but I recognize that that might be a financially unsound strategy, at least in the short term.
I'm not convinced you could even really short bitcoin.
posted by ODiV at 12:13 AM on March 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not convinced you could even really short bitcoin.
posted by ODiV at 12:13 AM on March 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
In some ways, bitcoin is just a degree of difference of what already happens on the internet. We already spend an immense amount of money, time, and electricity to watch a live stream of someone playing video games or argue about continuity errors of TV shows.
That stuff enriches peoples' lives - cryptocoin mining is completely unnecessary and doesn't need to exist. As a society, we don't need to waste clean energy and turn it into heat or create yet more dirty energy plants just to do utterly pointless calculations.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:18 AM on March 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
That stuff enriches peoples' lives - cryptocoin mining is completely unnecessary and doesn't need to exist. As a society, we don't need to waste clean energy and turn it into heat or create yet more dirty energy plants just to do utterly pointless calculations.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:18 AM on March 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
growhouse
I'm not upset that the fact that cannabis is legal now hasn't sunk in yet. Your mother and I are just disapionted.
posted by humboldt32 at 1:17 AM on March 10, 2018
I'm not upset that the fact that cannabis is legal now hasn't sunk in yet. Your mother and I are just disapionted.
posted by humboldt32 at 1:17 AM on March 10, 2018
The Mountain West Is Experiencing A Second Gold Rush. This Time They’re Mining Bitcoin.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:49 PM on March 12, 2018
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:49 PM on March 12, 2018
I'm not convinced you could even really short bitcoin.
Where there's money to be made, somebody comes up with a way...
posted by theorique at 11:19 AM on March 15, 2018
Where there's money to be made, somebody comes up with a way...
posted by theorique at 11:19 AM on March 15, 2018
Shorting bitcoin on a bitcoin exchange? Is Investopedia one of those joke sites?
posted by ODiV at 11:33 AM on March 15, 2018
posted by ODiV at 11:33 AM on March 15, 2018
New York power companies can now charge Bitcoin miners more
With few community benefits, power authorities are cracking down.
posted by XMLicious at 12:01 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
With few community benefits, power authorities are cracking down.
posted by XMLicious at 12:01 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
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posted by elsietheeel at 8:47 AM on March 9, 2018 [9 favorites]