Overwatch and DBT: Why it's time to teach boys coping skills
March 27, 2018 7:34 AM Subscribe
On Tuesday, March 20, a user on Reddit posted to the subforum of a popular video game: "My wife is a therapist. After I kept complaining about Overwatch losses, she made me fill out this worksheet." Even though this was posted as a “humor” item, the comments section abounded with a (perhaps surprising) amount of gamers earnestly embracing the worksheet as a tool for reflection. Commenters identified with the checklist of cognitive distortions. Some said that they would try to use this approach in other parts of their life that cause frustration.
Not sure if this will stick around, but here's the direct link to the Reddit thread.
posted by idb at 7:52 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by idb at 7:52 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
The thing to remember is that knowledge alone isn't a solution.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:57 AM on March 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:57 AM on March 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
Gaming, for me, is private.” The only reason to chill out, he said, would be if you were concerned about your teammates’ social response. “In social norms it’s frowned upon to express anger IRL. . . whereas social norms aren’t as strong via a mic anonymously. There is really no ‘consequence’ for it.he's gonna make for a really shitty therapist someday if he doesn't treat all human-to-human interaction as having 'consequences'
posted by runt at 8:08 AM on March 27, 2018 [39 favorites]
he's gonna make for a really shitty therapist someday if he doesn't treat all human-to-human interaction as having 'consequences'
and one of those consequences is that people who don't like being yelled at by angry men will leave
especially if for those people being yelled at by angry men is less of a politically "neutral" experience than for other angry men
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:16 AM on March 27, 2018 [34 favorites]
and one of those consequences is that people who don't like being yelled at by angry men will leave
especially if for those people being yelled at by angry men is less of a politically "neutral" experience than for other angry men
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:16 AM on March 27, 2018 [34 favorites]
I mean "The only reason to chill out, he said, would be if you were concerned about your teammates’ social response" kind of gets right to the heart of the matter, doesn't it? He just doesn't give a shit about other people if they're not sharing the same physical space.
posted by inconstant at 8:26 AM on March 27, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 8:26 AM on March 27, 2018 [31 favorites]
I'm guessing he's probably not so great when sharing a physical space either.
posted by kokaku at 8:32 AM on March 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 8:32 AM on March 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
One thing I notice with some guys is that everything gets expressed as anger because there is no acceptable way to express other emotions like fear or sadness. I don't think they even know they're feeling scared or sad or hurt because they're jumping so quickly to anger. Some guys drink this away, some yell at their partners, some start fistfights. Violence could be drastically reduced if men had a viable way to express a range of feelings.
Even men who aren't violent and angry often play this dominance game with other people instead of listening to them. ("Oh, you crewed on a boat one summer in college? I sailed from Boston to Virginia by myself.") Post-transition, I've felt myself getting more competitive because not playing the game makes one appear weak, and feeling weak or "like a girl" is something we're taught to avoid at all costs.
posted by AFABulous at 8:33 AM on March 27, 2018 [102 favorites]
Even men who aren't violent and angry often play this dominance game with other people instead of listening to them. ("Oh, you crewed on a boat one summer in college? I sailed from Boston to Virginia by myself.") Post-transition, I've felt myself getting more competitive because not playing the game makes one appear weak, and feeling weak or "like a girl" is something we're taught to avoid at all costs.
posted by AFABulous at 8:33 AM on March 27, 2018 [102 favorites]
The reddit thread is amazing! Coping skills is one of those things that for too long has been either ignored or considered a common-sense thing we all just do, when in fact so many of us struggle with it. And the extremely positive response from men who really need it is really good to see.
posted by A hidden well at 8:36 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by A hidden well at 8:36 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Even men who aren't violent and angry often play this dominance game with other people instead of listening to them. ("Oh, you crewed on a boat one summer in college? I sailed from Boston to Virginia by myself.") Post-transition, I've felt myself getting more competitive because not playing the game makes one appear weak, and feeling weak or "like a girl" is something we're taught to avoid at all costs.
I mean yeah maybe masculinity as currently constructed is the problem.
I will note that none of these behaviors were considered a problem when they just hurt women. So, yeah, teach them coping skills, everybody will benefit some. But this shit isn’t going to actually get better until they learn to regard the objects of their emotion as subjects. You know. As people.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:43 AM on March 27, 2018 [29 favorites]
I mean yeah maybe masculinity as currently constructed is the problem.
I will note that none of these behaviors were considered a problem when they just hurt women. So, yeah, teach them coping skills, everybody will benefit some. But this shit isn’t going to actually get better until they learn to regard the objects of their emotion as subjects. You know. As people.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:43 AM on March 27, 2018 [29 favorites]
I will note that none of these behaviors were considered a problem when they just hurt women. So, yeah, teach them coping skills, everybody will benefit some. But this shit isn’t going to actually get better until they learn to regard the objects of their emotion as subjects. You know. As people.
In my more cynical moments (ie when I'm awake) I sometimes think that every man currently alive, including me, is basically a lost cause, and that it's up to parents that are raising boys under, say, the age of 2 to take all this to heart and raise them better.
posted by Automocar at 8:47 AM on March 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
In my more cynical moments (ie when I'm awake) I sometimes think that every man currently alive, including me, is basically a lost cause, and that it's up to parents that are raising boys under, say, the age of 2 to take all this to heart and raise them better.
posted by Automocar at 8:47 AM on March 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
It's interesting that this is framed so centrally around DBT. That's a pretty classic CBT worksheet with no extra DBT components.
posted by quiet coyote at 8:47 AM on March 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by quiet coyote at 8:47 AM on March 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
Damn, I thought this was gonna be about the Drive-By Truckers
posted by notsnot at 8:49 AM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by notsnot at 8:49 AM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
Unless I miss my guess, this is straight out of David Burns' "Feeling Good", which is an amazing book, in and of itself.
As a coach, I recommend it ALL THE TIME.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 8:55 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
As a coach, I recommend it ALL THE TIME.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 8:55 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
One thing I notice with some guys is that everything gets expressed as anger because there is no acceptable way to express other emotions like fear or sadness. I don't think they even know they're feeling scared or sad or hurt because they're jumping so quickly to anger.
The number of men in my life who have mentioned finally learning to identify and name their emotions in their late 30s/early 40s would seem to bear this up
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:56 AM on March 27, 2018 [24 favorites]
The number of men in my life who have mentioned finally learning to identify and name their emotions in their late 30s/early 40s would seem to bear this up
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:56 AM on March 27, 2018 [24 favorites]
It's from Feeling Good by Dr. David Burns so yeah, it's all CBT.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:57 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:57 AM on March 27, 2018
Yes, a hidden well! We never think of all kinds of things as learned skills which really are learned skills or which require more than just intuitive common sense practices for us to be successful. It sometimes takes putting it into a context you never thought about to see it.
posted by crush at 8:59 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by crush at 8:59 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was reading an article the other day about gender and emotion regulation and one of the subheadings was "What Are Men Doing with Their Emotions Besides Drinking?" and unfortunately the answer is, not a whole lot.
posted by brook horse at 9:00 AM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 9:00 AM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
They're certainly right that standard girl socialization involves a lot more moderation of behavior to deal with everybody else's feelings, but even standard girl socialization is pretty terrible about actually figuring out how to manage your own feelings in a way that's healthy and productive for your own life instead of just everybody else's. Aside from the men-are-shitty part of this, which is not something I would argue against, I don't understand why CBT/DBT skills aren't a standard part of school curriculum at this point. We know they work. There are great books out there and stuff, but it still seems like the standard expectation is that to learn these skills, you need to pursue a mental health diagnosis and pay for extended therapy, when they ought to just be routine.
I mean, I'm sure there are some people who figure out other things that work for them better, but I do math in my head differently than I was initially taught in elementary school, too.
posted by Sequence at 9:25 AM on March 27, 2018 [51 favorites]
I mean, I'm sure there are some people who figure out other things that work for them better, but I do math in my head differently than I was initially taught in elementary school, too.
posted by Sequence at 9:25 AM on March 27, 2018 [51 favorites]
I don't understand why CBT/DBT skills aren't a standard part of school curriculum at this point
it's kind of a self-replicating cycle. we don't teach emotional regulation at an early age which ends up with not nearly enough people going into the fields of psychiatry / therapy / mental illness. based on the bits and pieces of med school culture I've heard it's that the people who become psychiatrists tend to be the people who are already socially well-adjusted, who value empathy - the bros with terrible emotional regulation head into fields with social or financial capital like surgery or anesthesiology, things that don't require much patient-doctor interaction, especially not in this modern era of valuing patient care and freedom
we end up with less mental health professionals than we need without programs to fund their positions or people who can loudly advocate for such changes. and it's especially difficult if this 'soft science' takes time away from our STEM education, given our internationally mediocre test results and how bound up they are in our industry and economy
posted by runt at 9:34 AM on March 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
it's kind of a self-replicating cycle. we don't teach emotional regulation at an early age which ends up with not nearly enough people going into the fields of psychiatry / therapy / mental illness. based on the bits and pieces of med school culture I've heard it's that the people who become psychiatrists tend to be the people who are already socially well-adjusted, who value empathy - the bros with terrible emotional regulation head into fields with social or financial capital like surgery or anesthesiology, things that don't require much patient-doctor interaction, especially not in this modern era of valuing patient care and freedom
we end up with less mental health professionals than we need without programs to fund their positions or people who can loudly advocate for such changes. and it's especially difficult if this 'soft science' takes time away from our STEM education, given our internationally mediocre test results and how bound up they are in our industry and economy
posted by runt at 9:34 AM on March 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
I sometimes think that every man currently alive, including me, is basically a lost cause, and that it's up to parents that are raising boys under, say, the age of 2 to take all this to heart and raise them better.
I know you said this is from your cynical moments, but this is also abdicating responsibility. Guess which parent is disproportionately saddled with that training, even nowadays? And how successful will it be if the nearest role model isn’t showing how it’s done? (Assuming the father is even there.)
If there’s going to be change, we have to model it ourselves, not foist it on the women and the 2 year olds.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:40 AM on March 27, 2018 [58 favorites]
I know you said this is from your cynical moments, but this is also abdicating responsibility. Guess which parent is disproportionately saddled with that training, even nowadays? And how successful will it be if the nearest role model isn’t showing how it’s done? (Assuming the father is even there.)
If there’s going to be change, we have to model it ourselves, not foist it on the women and the 2 year olds.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:40 AM on March 27, 2018 [58 favorites]
I know you said this is from your cynical moments, but this is also abdicating responsibility. Guess which parent is disproportionately saddled with that training, even nowadays? And how successful will it be if the nearest role model isn’t showing how it’s done? (Assuming the father is even there.)
If there’s going to be change, we have to model it ourselves, not foist it on the women and the 2 year olds.
Yeah, I almost edited my comment to read "fathers" instead of "parents" but I missed the edit window. As for the rest of it--I guess? I don't know. Who is going to force men to change?
I mean, I'm a man, I do my part in my own interpersonal relationships, and I shudder at the thought of having another boyfriend right now because I just do not want to deal with babysitting a man, but so much of these conversations feel like discussing climate change or something.
posted by Automocar at 9:49 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
If there’s going to be change, we have to model it ourselves, not foist it on the women and the 2 year olds.
Yeah, I almost edited my comment to read "fathers" instead of "parents" but I missed the edit window. As for the rest of it--I guess? I don't know. Who is going to force men to change?
I mean, I'm a man, I do my part in my own interpersonal relationships, and I shudder at the thought of having another boyfriend right now because I just do not want to deal with babysitting a man, but so much of these conversations feel like discussing climate change or something.
posted by Automocar at 9:49 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
If there’s going to be change, we have to model it ourselves, not foist it on the women and the 2 year olds.
Buggeration. That's going to cut pretty deeply into my slobbing on the couch and yelling at the television time.
posted by flabdablet at 9:49 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Buggeration. That's going to cut pretty deeply into my slobbing on the couch and yelling at the television time.
posted by flabdablet at 9:49 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't understand why CBT/DBT skills aren't a standard part of school curriculum at this point.
Because the purpose of public school is not to produce well-educated, competent, self-sufficient adults; it is to produce compliant drones, and self-management skills actually get in the way of that.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:50 AM on March 27, 2018 [27 favorites]
Because the purpose of public school is not to produce well-educated, competent, self-sufficient adults; it is to produce compliant drones, and self-management skills actually get in the way of that.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:50 AM on March 27, 2018 [27 favorites]
In my more cynical moments (ie when I'm awake) I sometimes think that every man currently alive, including me, is basically a lost cause, and that it's up to parents that are raising boys under, say, the age of 2 to take all this to heart and raise them better.
I think this is an abdication of responsibility - "welp, lost cause, can't teach an old dog new tricks"... and then what? Wait for the adult generation to die so we can have a fresh clean slate?
I really do not buy this "too late to change" idea. I think that adults can change, in many areas at least, if they want to and are motivated to do so. That's why there's therapy, self-help, twelve-step groups, psych meds, etc. etc. etc.
Saying "I can't" is really "I don't wanna" - and it takes privilege to say that.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:52 AM on March 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
I think this is an abdication of responsibility - "welp, lost cause, can't teach an old dog new tricks"... and then what? Wait for the adult generation to die so we can have a fresh clean slate?
I really do not buy this "too late to change" idea. I think that adults can change, in many areas at least, if they want to and are motivated to do so. That's why there's therapy, self-help, twelve-step groups, psych meds, etc. etc. etc.
Saying "I can't" is really "I don't wanna" - and it takes privilege to say that.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:52 AM on March 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
not nearly enough people going into the fields of psychiatry / therapy / mental illness. based on the bits and pieces of med school culture I've heard it's that the people who become psychiatrists tend to be the people who are already socially well-adjusted,
Both of those statements don't align with my experience. There are more than enough people that do get into that field, or at least get a degree in them, and there is more than enough of them that are not the most... mentally sound. Really, anyone walking out of school with a graduate degree in their mid to late 20's is still going to be inadequate to give life advice in one way or another. Also, someone can get a Masters in Social Work, have little to no therapy training, have more job options walking out of school, most likely be more successful, and probably get paid better than someone walking out with a Masters in Psych.
Anyway, I've cut down on my Overwatch. I play on PS4 with the full knowledge that FPS' are made for M&K, and it's a team game that doesn't work if people just decide to do whatever. When it's a comp that won't work I'll just pick character to mess around with, or a lot of the time I just don't make any qualms about jumping out of game when we're getting steamrolled.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:00 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Both of those statements don't align with my experience. There are more than enough people that do get into that field, or at least get a degree in them, and there is more than enough of them that are not the most... mentally sound. Really, anyone walking out of school with a graduate degree in their mid to late 20's is still going to be inadequate to give life advice in one way or another. Also, someone can get a Masters in Social Work, have little to no therapy training, have more job options walking out of school, most likely be more successful, and probably get paid better than someone walking out with a Masters in Psych.
Anyway, I've cut down on my Overwatch. I play on PS4 with the full knowledge that FPS' are made for M&K, and it's a team game that doesn't work if people just decide to do whatever. When it's a comp that won't work I'll just pick character to mess around with, or a lot of the time I just don't make any qualms about jumping out of game when we're getting steamrolled.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:00 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think we’re overlooking the main problem: no one countered Pharah. All this coping stuff is great but let’s bring it back to reality.
posted by grimjeer at 10:00 AM on March 27, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by grimjeer at 10:00 AM on March 27, 2018 [17 favorites]
As a Pharah main, I can say that is a common problem. She's a wide open floating target. I actually enjoy it if there's a Soldier, Widow, or Mcree going after me. I will gleefully target them. If there's more than one of those going after me, it becomes pointless and I'll switch it up.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:04 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by P.o.B. at 10:04 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I only made if a few chapters into Feeling Good. I found it highly condescending; my problems are *not* all in my imagination.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:05 AM on March 27, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:05 AM on March 27, 2018 [15 favorites]
Saying "I can't" is really "I don't wanna" - and it takes privilege to say that.
I don't think people have agency.
I also don't think privilege is a good reason to withhold help.
posted by poe at 10:11 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't think people have agency.
I also don't think privilege is a good reason to withhold help.
posted by poe at 10:11 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, most of my life the emotions I could easily recognize and name were fear, anger, and the joy that comes from humiliating your opponents in computer games.
It took some self-medication to learn to recognize the other emotions, and hundreds of hours of therapy to learn their names and what they are for.
How I stopped playing LoL
One day I call my sister to organize a complicated trip. The conversation goes well, she will call back when she has some more details.
She calls back after an hour. The conversation is not going well. My sister says "I don't know what happened to you in the last hour, but you are being an asshole. Go take a walk or something and call me when you are feeling better."
It really made me think, what happened in the span of one that made me be an asshole to my sister? Well, 2 bad losses in League of Legends is what happened. No game that makes me be an asshole to my sister is worth it.
I took a break to learn how to cope with bad LoL losses. The break is ongoing.
posted by Index Librorum Prohibitorum at 10:29 AM on March 27, 2018 [23 favorites]
It took some self-medication to learn to recognize the other emotions, and hundreds of hours of therapy to learn their names and what they are for.
How I stopped playing LoL
One day I call my sister to organize a complicated trip. The conversation goes well, she will call back when she has some more details.
She calls back after an hour. The conversation is not going well. My sister says "I don't know what happened to you in the last hour, but you are being an asshole. Go take a walk or something and call me when you are feeling better."
It really made me think, what happened in the span of one that made me be an asshole to my sister? Well, 2 bad losses in League of Legends is what happened. No game that makes me be an asshole to my sister is worth it.
I took a break to learn how to cope with bad LoL losses. The break is ongoing.
posted by Index Librorum Prohibitorum at 10:29 AM on March 27, 2018 [23 favorites]
"It was nice how many people played tank/support."
(I'm not gonna be Mercy.)
posted by DarlingBri at 11:01 AM on March 27, 2018
(I'm not gonna be Mercy.)
posted by DarlingBri at 11:01 AM on March 27, 2018
I only made if a few chapters into Feeling Good. I found it highly condescending; my problems are *not* all in my imagination.
I hear you. After filling out CBT sheets, labeling my negative thoughts as cognitive distortions and then having my supposedly Catastrophizing scenarios come true over and over again, sometimes even worse than I'd feared... ugh. I'm starting to think I'm just really good at accurately predicting (negative) future events based on other people's current behaviour.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 11:04 AM on March 27, 2018 [20 favorites]
I hear you. After filling out CBT sheets, labeling my negative thoughts as cognitive distortions and then having my supposedly Catastrophizing scenarios come true over and over again, sometimes even worse than I'd feared... ugh. I'm starting to think I'm just really good at accurately predicting (negative) future events based on other people's current behaviour.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 11:04 AM on March 27, 2018 [20 favorites]
based on the bits and pieces of med school culture I've heard it's that the people who become psychiatrists tend to be the people who are already socially well-adjusted, who value empathy
As someone who went to grad school in psychology and is married to a research psychologist (non-clinical) and has thus spent an large part of my life amongst clinical psychology students and faculty I can assure you that they are as fucked up as everybody else if not more so (many go into the field because of problems they have/had or their family has/had either because they seek answers or exposure led them to see it as a career path).
I do love me some CBT although most of my self-insight is centered around low blood sugar and lack of quality sleep.
posted by srboisvert at 11:05 AM on March 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
As someone who went to grad school in psychology and is married to a research psychologist (non-clinical) and has thus spent an large part of my life amongst clinical psychology students and faculty I can assure you that they are as fucked up as everybody else if not more so (many go into the field because of problems they have/had or their family has/had either because they seek answers or exposure led them to see it as a career path).
I do love me some CBT although most of my self-insight is centered around low blood sugar and lack of quality sleep.
posted by srboisvert at 11:05 AM on March 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
> P.o.B.:
"As a Pharah main, I can say that is a common problem. She's a wide open floating target. I actually enjoy it if there's a Soldier, Widow, or Mcree going after me. I will gleefully target them. If there's more than one of those going after me, it becomes pointless and I'll switch it up."
I've started maining Brigitte. I hate you Pharah, I hate you with the fire of 1xE5500 suns.
posted by Samizdata at 11:07 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
"As a Pharah main, I can say that is a common problem. She's a wide open floating target. I actually enjoy it if there's a Soldier, Widow, or Mcree going after me. I will gleefully target them. If there's more than one of those going after me, it becomes pointless and I'll switch it up."
I've started maining Brigitte. I hate you Pharah, I hate you with the fire of 1xE5500 suns.
posted by Samizdata at 11:07 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I just came back from volunteering at my daughters' elementary school. All students could definitely benefit from learning how to manage difficult emotions. Good lord, it seems like it's half of teachers' jobs.
Sometimes I think we've got it all backwards, and the overwhelming focus on STEM and academic achievement is misplaced. We certainly would be better off if we were all taught how to effectively love each other in grade school. (Whether or not that could be taught in school is a different ball of wax.)
One thing I notice with some guys is that everything gets expressed as anger because there is no acceptable way to express other emotions like fear or sadness.
...
Yeah, most of my life the emotions I could easily recognize and name were fear, anger, and the joy that comes from humiliating your opponents in computer games.
It took some self-medication to learn to recognize the other emotions, and hundreds of hours of therapy to learn their names and what they are for.
I've heard (or read) that anger is a "secondary emotion," meaning that it's a response to sadness, disappointment, frustration, anxiety, etc etc. Unfortunately, it's one of the only emotions that has been acceptable for boys to express.
I was a "Free To Me You and Me" kid growing up in the 1970s, and we all "knew" that it was "OK" for William to play with dolls, and it was "OK" for boys to cry ... and yet every day it was demonstrated that "no, it certainly is not OK for boys to play with dolls," and "no, real men don't fucking cry."
Young boys who show emotion and vulnerability are often abused by their less emotionally aware peers for being "different" (with a strong sense of homosexuality implied). Boys learn very quickly to show joy (victory) or rage (loss), and nothing else.
I once thought the main benefit of organized sports for boys was teaching them how to be "good losers." I actually do think sports certainly have that potential, even spectator sports, if watched with guidance from adults who can help navigate and explain emotions. Unfortunately, I think the "good loser" aspect of sports isn't promoted nearly enough, especially when compared with "who won" and "who is the best player" etc.
I think computer/video games likewise have the same teaching potential. There is a lot of room to grow emotionally when you are humbled (i.e. getting beaten badly). However, most of that activity occurs in a vacuum (the (meatspace) solitary nature of gaming) with little adult guidance regarding the emotions involved.
In regard to the Overwatch "worksheet," I think any sort of self-reflection is usually worthwhile, especially in a structured format.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:08 AM on March 27, 2018 [11 favorites]
Sometimes I think we've got it all backwards, and the overwhelming focus on STEM and academic achievement is misplaced. We certainly would be better off if we were all taught how to effectively love each other in grade school. (Whether or not that could be taught in school is a different ball of wax.)
One thing I notice with some guys is that everything gets expressed as anger because there is no acceptable way to express other emotions like fear or sadness.
...
Yeah, most of my life the emotions I could easily recognize and name were fear, anger, and the joy that comes from humiliating your opponents in computer games.
It took some self-medication to learn to recognize the other emotions, and hundreds of hours of therapy to learn their names and what they are for.
I've heard (or read) that anger is a "secondary emotion," meaning that it's a response to sadness, disappointment, frustration, anxiety, etc etc. Unfortunately, it's one of the only emotions that has been acceptable for boys to express.
I was a "Free To Me You and Me" kid growing up in the 1970s, and we all "knew" that it was "OK" for William to play with dolls, and it was "OK" for boys to cry ... and yet every day it was demonstrated that "no, it certainly is not OK for boys to play with dolls," and "no, real men don't fucking cry."
Young boys who show emotion and vulnerability are often abused by their less emotionally aware peers for being "different" (with a strong sense of homosexuality implied). Boys learn very quickly to show joy (victory) or rage (loss), and nothing else.
I once thought the main benefit of organized sports for boys was teaching them how to be "good losers." I actually do think sports certainly have that potential, even spectator sports, if watched with guidance from adults who can help navigate and explain emotions. Unfortunately, I think the "good loser" aspect of sports isn't promoted nearly enough, especially when compared with "who won" and "who is the best player" etc.
I think computer/video games likewise have the same teaching potential. There is a lot of room to grow emotionally when you are humbled (i.e. getting beaten badly). However, most of that activity occurs in a vacuum (the (meatspace) solitary nature of gaming) with little adult guidance regarding the emotions involved.
In regard to the Overwatch "worksheet," I think any sort of self-reflection is usually worthwhile, especially in a structured format.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:08 AM on March 27, 2018 [11 favorites]
Gaming, for me, is private.” The only reason to chill out, he said, would be if you were concerned about your teammates’ social response. “In social norms it’s frowned upon to express anger IRL. . . whereas social norms aren’t as strong via a mic anonymously. There is really no ‘consequence’ for it.
Like if it's private - don't play multiplayer games? don't hop on voice chat? This dude has a funny notion of 'private'
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:08 AM on March 27, 2018 [18 favorites]
Like if it's private - don't play multiplayer games? don't hop on voice chat? This dude has a funny notion of 'private'
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:08 AM on March 27, 2018 [18 favorites]
Huh, the main reason why I get wicked anxiety attacks doing anything multiplayer is that I don't want to disappoint anyone with less than perfect performance.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:12 AM on March 27, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:12 AM on March 27, 2018 [16 favorites]
Nobody cares if you cuss out bowser while playing mario in your own house, be as vicious as you like
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:16 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:16 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't want to disappoint anyone with less than perfect performance.
You can come and play PUBG with me. I will be impressed and grateful every time you hit anything that isn't either (a) stock still and right in front of you or (b) on your own team.
Seriously, I get where you're coming from (well, I objectively suck at video games, so maybe not exactly the same perspective), but there are options, like Mefightclub, where people are playing because playing is fun, and the only real disappointment would be someone getting angry about losing a game.
posted by howfar at 11:18 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
You can come and play PUBG with me. I will be impressed and grateful every time you hit anything that isn't either (a) stock still and right in front of you or (b) on your own team.
Seriously, I get where you're coming from (well, I objectively suck at video games, so maybe not exactly the same perspective), but there are options, like Mefightclub, where people are playing because playing is fun, and the only real disappointment would be someone getting angry about losing a game.
posted by howfar at 11:18 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
feeling weak or "like a girl" is something we're taught to avoid at all costs.
I just spent more time than necessary wondering why a guy at work threw a fit and quit over some fairly ordinary-seeming technical conversations, until I remembered just how strongly emotive it is for some men when it looks like a lady might know more than they do about their field.
I'm not sure which is worse, the thing where men deal with these emotions by shouting at me, or the thing where men deal with these emotions by imploding into a giant ball of shame and self-hatred. Or the thing where guys who have somehow avoided this weird life trap tell me "oh yes what a good idea" or "oh yes I think you're right" and I then feel absurdly grateful to them for not making a huge dramarama about the fact that I had a good idea.
posted by quacks like a duck at 11:20 AM on March 27, 2018 [26 favorites]
I just spent more time than necessary wondering why a guy at work threw a fit and quit over some fairly ordinary-seeming technical conversations, until I remembered just how strongly emotive it is for some men when it looks like a lady might know more than they do about their field.
I'm not sure which is worse, the thing where men deal with these emotions by shouting at me, or the thing where men deal with these emotions by imploding into a giant ball of shame and self-hatred. Or the thing where guys who have somehow avoided this weird life trap tell me "oh yes what a good idea" or "oh yes I think you're right" and I then feel absurdly grateful to them for not making a huge dramarama about the fact that I had a good idea.
posted by quacks like a duck at 11:20 AM on March 27, 2018 [26 favorites]
I don't understand anyone who would want to spend their precious leisure time screaming profanities and insults at strangers. Over ten years ago I watched a friend play what I think was Counterstrike with and against a bunch of people online and it was a constant stream of the most hateful verbal sewage, far worse than anything I heard in hockey dressing rooms. He seemed to shrug most of it off as just part of the game, but I was thoroughly depressed by the end of the hour or so that he played.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:37 AM on March 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:37 AM on March 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
I have actually been trying an experiment in Overwatch, where I am polite, pleasant, humorous and give positive feedback as much as I can. I think the worst thing I have said was accusing one of the better players of "bogarting all the PoTGs" while also telling them it was an awesome play.
There's a running joke with one of my online friends about another online game I play about "time for the daily ragequit".
posted by Samizdata at 11:48 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
There's a running joke with one of my online friends about another online game I play about "time for the daily ragequit".
posted by Samizdata at 11:48 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I will note that none of these behaviors were considered a problem when they just hurt women
I might be misunderstanding this comment, but I can't figure out when that might have been. Men have been hurting themselves and other me with these behaviors forever. Women might usually be innocent bystanders to toxic masculinity, but men are hurt by it as well.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:50 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I might be misunderstanding this comment, but I can't figure out when that might have been. Men have been hurting themselves and other me with these behaviors forever. Women might usually be innocent bystanders to toxic masculinity, but men are hurt by it as well.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:50 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Nobody cares if you cuss out bowser while playing mario in your own house, be as vicious as you like
Except for the other people who live in the house.
So, I play video games, and I live with a man, and one thing I’ve noticed, every time, is that when it gets to a frustrating part in the game, he Just Doesn’t Know How To Handle That. Even for non competitive games. It’s like he’s never been taught to lose with grace and try harder. This sheet is super relevant.
posted by corb at 11:52 AM on March 27, 2018 [15 favorites]
Except for the other people who live in the house.
So, I play video games, and I live with a man, and one thing I’ve noticed, every time, is that when it gets to a frustrating part in the game, he Just Doesn’t Know How To Handle That. Even for non competitive games. It’s like he’s never been taught to lose with grace and try harder. This sheet is super relevant.
posted by corb at 11:52 AM on March 27, 2018 [15 favorites]
> corb:
"Nobody cares if you cuss out bowser while playing mario in your own house, be as vicious as you like
Except for the other people who live in the house.
So, I play video games, and I live with a man, and one thing I’ve noticed, every time, is that when it gets to a frustrating part in the game, he Just Doesn’t Know How To Handle That. Even for non competitive games. It’s like he’s never been taught to lose with grace and try harder. This sheet is super relevant."
Seriously, I have quite a few games installed on my PC. That's because of how I handle when I get pissed at a game. I quit for a few days/weeks. Funnily enough, I would say, 7/10 times, when I come back, I lick the problem that had been beating me and I move on. Because, about the time the game stops being fun, that means it is time to stop playing for a while. (Although I have been known to trashtalk the game/in game problem that had been causing me issues when I come back and beat it).
posted by Samizdata at 12:00 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Nobody cares if you cuss out bowser while playing mario in your own house, be as vicious as you like
Except for the other people who live in the house.
So, I play video games, and I live with a man, and one thing I’ve noticed, every time, is that when it gets to a frustrating part in the game, he Just Doesn’t Know How To Handle That. Even for non competitive games. It’s like he’s never been taught to lose with grace and try harder. This sheet is super relevant."
Seriously, I have quite a few games installed on my PC. That's because of how I handle when I get pissed at a game. I quit for a few days/weeks. Funnily enough, I would say, 7/10 times, when I come back, I lick the problem that had been beating me and I move on. Because, about the time the game stops being fun, that means it is time to stop playing for a while. (Although I have been known to trashtalk the game/in game problem that had been causing me issues when I come back and beat it).
posted by Samizdata at 12:00 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Well, 2 bad losses in League of Legends is what happened. No game that makes me be an asshole to my sister is worth it.
Don't let anyone talk you into Rocket League. Trust me. I'm serious.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:26 PM on March 27, 2018
Don't let anyone talk you into Rocket League. Trust me. I'm serious.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:26 PM on March 27, 2018
Dragon Ball Torture?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:32 PM on March 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:32 PM on March 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Not me personally, Rocket League is just a perfect storm to cause havoc on relationships between friends if both are the type to want to win and it's such a boiled down, visceral game (I call it speed chess meets concert piano when I describe it to folks) that it's really easy to start second guessing and blame gaming, which I fully admit men are prone to do in video games. Then discussions turn sour and someone leaves, to their detriment I feel.
I also play with a cousin of mine who loves Dark Souls and challenging games and really thrives off them just as much as he does a multiplayer session of FPS goodness. So, I dunno, all the above comments about toxic masculinity are totally valid, as I've mentioned before, but as they apply to games as my personal circle goes and as I know it... well, it's complicated.
Neat to see CBT applied to it. I would ask the clinical psychologist missus to take a peek and give her two cents but she's perpetually too busy to consume things like this. *long sigh*
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:37 PM on March 27, 2018
I also play with a cousin of mine who loves Dark Souls and challenging games and really thrives off them just as much as he does a multiplayer session of FPS goodness. So, I dunno, all the above comments about toxic masculinity are totally valid, as I've mentioned before, but as they apply to games as my personal circle goes and as I know it... well, it's complicated.
Neat to see CBT applied to it. I would ask the clinical psychologist missus to take a peek and give her two cents but she's perpetually too busy to consume things like this. *long sigh*
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:37 PM on March 27, 2018
You know, it's funny. Thinking of OW, well, I don't play competitively. I tend to play AI training. I am well over level 100, and, during one game, I had a couple of people questioning me as to why, at that level, I don't play comp. I told them "I'm here to have fun. This is fun."
posted by Samizdata at 12:39 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by Samizdata at 12:39 PM on March 27, 2018
I think of this every single time I hear CBT.
posted by bastionofsanity at 12:43 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by bastionofsanity at 12:43 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I could use this while watching sports. This weekend, after venting frustration that Kentucky never gets called for blatant fouls, I picked up on how agitated my wife was. I apologized for getting emotionally charged up, and she told me, "A big reason I don't enjoy watching sports is memories of my father yelling at the TV every weekend."
I made sure to be positive and see the good in both teams for the remainder of the day. Including a Duke game. That was hard.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:55 PM on March 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
I made sure to be positive and see the good in both teams for the remainder of the day. Including a Duke game. That was hard.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:55 PM on March 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Also, "Because my teammates are hot garbage." That's likely me he's talking about. Sorry!
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:56 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:56 PM on March 27, 2018
Young boys who show emotion and vulnerability are often abused by their less emotionally aware peers for being "different" (with a strong sense of homosexuality implied).
And they are often belittled by the adult figures in their lives too. The historical gender norms - where men are expected to be "tough" and not show any weakness - are very strongly imprinted.
Boys are given little or no training or knowledge of some of the more basic emotions that they will encounter while attempting to form relationships. Lust, rejection, jealousy, and infatuation/limerence are perhaps the most powerful human emotions there are (except for grief and love) - without experience or guidelines, it's very difficult to know how to cope with them in ways that do not harm others. It doesn't help that there are so few men around that have learned to cope with them successfully and can serve as role models.
Coping with these emotions successfully is the very definition of emotional maturity. Are there shortcuts to emotional maturity that can be obtained in ways other than direct experience?
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 1:01 PM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
And they are often belittled by the adult figures in their lives too. The historical gender norms - where men are expected to be "tough" and not show any weakness - are very strongly imprinted.
Boys are given little or no training or knowledge of some of the more basic emotions that they will encounter while attempting to form relationships. Lust, rejection, jealousy, and infatuation/limerence are perhaps the most powerful human emotions there are (except for grief and love) - without experience or guidelines, it's very difficult to know how to cope with them in ways that do not harm others. It doesn't help that there are so few men around that have learned to cope with them successfully and can serve as role models.
Coping with these emotions successfully is the very definition of emotional maturity. Are there shortcuts to emotional maturity that can be obtained in ways other than direct experience?
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 1:01 PM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
> bastionofsanity:
"I think of this every single time I hear CBT."
Yeah, I had a REALLY awkward moment with my previous councillor when she mentioned that the first time and I busted out laughing.
The explanation for my mirth was...beyond...awkward...
posted by Samizdata at 1:01 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
"I think of this every single time I hear CBT."
Yeah, I had a REALLY awkward moment with my previous councillor when she mentioned that the first time and I busted out laughing.
The explanation for my mirth was...beyond...awkward...
posted by Samizdata at 1:01 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
“In social norms it’s frowned upon to express anger IRL. . . whereas social norms aren’t as strong via a mic anonymously. There is really no ‘consequence’ for it.
Yeah, consequence certainly has something to do with civility. I remember getting loudly ridiculed in a similar fashion when I was a little skinny kid trying to play sports...and being an enormous klutz. Then I grew to be 6'4 225lbs. No one ever talked to me like that again, no matter how much I badly I missed a layup, etc.
Chewbacca Chess Syndrome.
note: I also make darn sure other people don't talk smack to the little guys now.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:02 PM on March 27, 2018
Yeah, consequence certainly has something to do with civility. I remember getting loudly ridiculed in a similar fashion when I was a little skinny kid trying to play sports...and being an enormous klutz. Then I grew to be 6'4 225lbs. No one ever talked to me like that again, no matter how much I badly I missed a layup, etc.
Chewbacca Chess Syndrome.
note: I also make darn sure other people don't talk smack to the little guys now.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:02 PM on March 27, 2018
There's a performance myth that any problem can be solved if you grind on it hard enough. And if you keep failing it's because you're not trying hard enough or fail on a personal level. In reality, learning usually benefits from giving the problem some rest time. But you won't learn that from the design of twitch games, which get their design aesthetics from pushing the user into spending another quarter.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:05 PM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:05 PM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
The explanation for my mirth was...beyond...awkward...
"Oh, sorry doc, didn't mean to laugh like that, I'm just a lot more used to those letters meaning 'cognitive behavioral therapy.' Anyway you want me on the rack or?"
posted by griphus at 1:09 PM on March 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
"Oh, sorry doc, didn't mean to laugh like that, I'm just a lot more used to those letters meaning 'cognitive behavioral therapy.' Anyway you want me on the rack or?"
posted by griphus at 1:09 PM on March 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
> griphus:
"The explanation for my mirth was...beyond...awkward...
"Oh, sorry doc, didn't mean to laugh like that, I'm just a lot more used to those letters meaning 'cognitive behavioral therapy.' Anyway you want me on the rack or?""
Congrats. First out loud laugh of the day. Cheers!
posted by Samizdata at 1:19 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
"The explanation for my mirth was...beyond...awkward...
"Oh, sorry doc, didn't mean to laugh like that, I'm just a lot more used to those letters meaning 'cognitive behavioral therapy.' Anyway you want me on the rack or?""
Congrats. First out loud laugh of the day. Cheers!
posted by Samizdata at 1:19 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
it's honestly frustrating to hear the chorus of "nothing men as a group can do until we raise feminist emotionally aware boys from the start!" (as if that hasn't been said for at least 50yrs now) especially in a thread literally about men learning how to regulate their own emotions better.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:30 PM on March 27, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:30 PM on March 27, 2018 [29 favorites]
After filling out CBT sheets, labeling my negative thoughts as cognitive distortions and then having my supposedly Catastrophizing scenarios come true over and over again, sometimes even worse than I'd feared... ugh. I'm starting to think I'm just really good at accurately predicting (negative) future events based on other people's current behaviour.
I hear you, too!
Not all negative emotions come from cognitive distortions- negative emotions are a normal part of life, and part of the work with CBT is figuring out *whether* they're driven by cognitive distortions or true thoughts- so the goal is to have a level of negative emotion that fits the situation rather than too much negative emotion for the situation. So if you knew a loved one was likely going to die, it would be normal to be sad and anxious about the thought "this person is likely going to die," even though that's a true thought and not a cognitive distortion. I usually ask myself, "if I polled 100 reasonable people who had all the relevant information, would they mostly agree that this thought is true?" and if not, then I work on accepting the truth of the situation rather than challenging my distortion.
However, when I'm pretty sure there's a cognitive distortion about something that's going to happen in the future but I can't figure out what it is, there's a trick I like to use- which is to consider whether I'm really worried about probability or cost. Cognitive distortions about future events are usually an overestimation of how likely something is to happen (probability) or an overestimation of how bad it will be (cost).
It sounds like you're pretty accurate at gauging the probability that bad things will happen, so perhaps it might be worthwhile to explore whether you're on track with gauging cost- so how bad those bad things will be for you, your ability to cope effectively and move forward with your life, etc. If you're still not finding a cognitive distortion, then the work to be done is more around acceptance of those bad things happening and thinking through ways to cope in spite of them.
posted by quiet coyote at 1:47 PM on March 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
I hear you, too!
Not all negative emotions come from cognitive distortions- negative emotions are a normal part of life, and part of the work with CBT is figuring out *whether* they're driven by cognitive distortions or true thoughts- so the goal is to have a level of negative emotion that fits the situation rather than too much negative emotion for the situation. So if you knew a loved one was likely going to die, it would be normal to be sad and anxious about the thought "this person is likely going to die," even though that's a true thought and not a cognitive distortion. I usually ask myself, "if I polled 100 reasonable people who had all the relevant information, would they mostly agree that this thought is true?" and if not, then I work on accepting the truth of the situation rather than challenging my distortion.
However, when I'm pretty sure there's a cognitive distortion about something that's going to happen in the future but I can't figure out what it is, there's a trick I like to use- which is to consider whether I'm really worried about probability or cost. Cognitive distortions about future events are usually an overestimation of how likely something is to happen (probability) or an overestimation of how bad it will be (cost).
It sounds like you're pretty accurate at gauging the probability that bad things will happen, so perhaps it might be worthwhile to explore whether you're on track with gauging cost- so how bad those bad things will be for you, your ability to cope effectively and move forward with your life, etc. If you're still not finding a cognitive distortion, then the work to be done is more around acceptance of those bad things happening and thinking through ways to cope in spite of them.
posted by quiet coyote at 1:47 PM on March 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
Argh, I meant that if 100 reasonable people who had all the relevant information would mostly agree that the thought is true, then I work on accepting the truth of the situation, but if they would mostly say it's not true, then I work on challenging my distortion.
posted by quiet coyote at 2:17 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by quiet coyote at 2:17 PM on March 27, 2018
Try being a Torbjorn main. Everyone is yelling and yet, there I am keeping the point free of everyone.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:54 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:54 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
> Justinian:
"Typical Torbjorn Play of the Game ."
Not typical. That's not me playing Tor.
SUPPORT SQUAD 4 LYFE TESTIFYEEEE!!!!!!!!!
posted by Samizdata at 6:33 PM on March 27, 2018
"Typical Torbjorn Play of the Game ."
Not typical. That's not me playing Tor.
SUPPORT SQUAD 4 LYFE TESTIFYEEEE!!!!!!!!!
posted by Samizdata at 6:33 PM on March 27, 2018
I got much better at games when I stopped playing to win and instead played to sharpen various skills. For example, I'd play 20 games in a row of a specific character to learn a specific aspect of their play, regardless of whether that character or aspect of play was most suitable in that game-state... for example, I'd sometimes be picking a character into their counter, or say Sym / Torb on attack - which has worked out wonderfully sometimes, not so wonderfully at other times, but unless you play out all the permutations, you'll never learn all the nuances. And one-tricks are so fearsome precisely because they have so much experience playing against their counters, while people who play their counters may not have much experience playing against a dedicated one-trick who has mastered the match-up.
As an unexpected benefit I almost completely stopped having negative thoughts about the games when I lost - because no matter the outcome of the game, I was "winning". As for people who accuse me of "not playing to win" I don't really bother replying, but internally I'm of the opinion that my rankings have risen substantially with focused learning so this is clearly "playing to win" - just not in the way my teammates assume.
posted by xdvesper at 7:39 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
As an unexpected benefit I almost completely stopped having negative thoughts about the games when I lost - because no matter the outcome of the game, I was "winning". As for people who accuse me of "not playing to win" I don't really bother replying, but internally I'm of the opinion that my rankings have risen substantially with focused learning so this is clearly "playing to win" - just not in the way my teammates assume.
posted by xdvesper at 7:39 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
They're certainly right that standard girl socialization involves a lot more moderation of behavior to deal with everybody else's feelings, but even standard girl socialization is pretty terrible about actually figuring out how to manage your own feelings in a way that's healthy and productive for your own life instead of just everybody else's.
Yeah, the "women & trans people probably have an easier time of this, on account of having to manage other people's negative emotions all the time" bit gave me pause. Sure, it's a leg up that we're even thinking about things in terms of emotions, but learning to choose your thoughts & behavior to not set off someone else's bullshit is a completely different skillset, & not necessarily compatible with what constitutes healthy thinking for yourself.
I'm just now starting to work out my shit at age 37 & the entire impetus was my boyfriend teaching himself CBT; otherwise I'd still be a godawful mess.
posted by taquito sunrise at 7:59 PM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yeah, the "women & trans people probably have an easier time of this, on account of having to manage other people's negative emotions all the time" bit gave me pause. Sure, it's a leg up that we're even thinking about things in terms of emotions, but learning to choose your thoughts & behavior to not set off someone else's bullshit is a completely different skillset, & not necessarily compatible with what constitutes healthy thinking for yourself.
I'm just now starting to work out my shit at age 37 & the entire impetus was my boyfriend teaching himself CBT; otherwise I'd still be a godawful mess.
posted by taquito sunrise at 7:59 PM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
They're certainly right that standard girl socialization involves a lot more moderation of behavior to deal with everybody else's feelings, but even standard girl socialization is pretty terrible about actually figuring out how to manage your own feelings in a way that's healthy and productive for your own life instead of just everybody else's.
But a large part of why girls have trouble with managing their own feelings is that all of the healthiest ways for them to do so are actively punished in most social settings, and in a large proportion of their relationships with men.
I can set boundaries with women. I can talk openly about my trauma with women (without it being used as a weapon against me later). I can ask for help from women. I can call and say “I am having a hard day and I need some help-- this type of help specifically, are you available?” and receive an honest response. I can give feedback (“when you say that it hurts my feelings”) to women without worrying that they will lash out in response, or bring it up for the next five years as an example of how fragile I am. I can say “when you are angry around me it makes me nervous, could you please try to be careful about how you express those feelings in my presence” to women without assuming that the response will be derision. I can say “I need some time to myself right now, it isn’t about not wanting to see you” to a woman and feel pretty safe that she believes me. Almost every woman that I know can manage these types of interpersonal exchanges.
But when I try to implement even the most basic of healthy emotional management practices (for myself) with most men, even with the most progressive, even with the ones who love me pretty unconditionally, the backlash tends to be IMMENSE and EXHAUSTING. I don’t even bother trying in the workplace, because it would only get me fired. I don’t have the option of implementing these practices on public transportation, or in a store, or in a restaurant, or while attending the March for Our Lives (me to man physically pushing against me even though he had two full feet of space on his other side— “can you please move forward a bit?” him— looked me dead in the eye, scoffed, moved a millimeter away so that I had to move myself instead), or on most of social media, or or or or.
When girls and women placate, and swallow down their anger, and stay quiet, and invisibly do work for other people, it isn’t always because they have been socialized into believing that those are Woman’s Duty and Doing So Leads to Gender-Appropriate Fulfillment. Knowing how to do something (manage your emotions in a healthy way) and having the ability and social space to do it are two different things.
Also, for any men reading this: the context of "most men don't know how to manage their emotions" is part of why you should know that men who scream and shout are scary to WAYYYY more people than you realize. Even if you are joking. Even if it is just a game. Even if your team missed the last shot. Even if you are just "blowing off steam". If you give me a random cortisol spike in public or at work or at home or anywhere, my brain begins to categorize you as "less safe". I'm less likely to be honest with you, or to tell you how I'm really doing. Not because I think you'll physically attack me, but because you have already caused me physical and emotional harm to make yourself feel better. I know it probably wasn't your intention, but my visceral instincts around you don't care. Just FYI.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:42 AM on March 28, 2018 [25 favorites]
But a large part of why girls have trouble with managing their own feelings is that all of the healthiest ways for them to do so are actively punished in most social settings, and in a large proportion of their relationships with men.
I can set boundaries with women. I can talk openly about my trauma with women (without it being used as a weapon against me later). I can ask for help from women. I can call and say “I am having a hard day and I need some help-- this type of help specifically, are you available?” and receive an honest response. I can give feedback (“when you say that it hurts my feelings”) to women without worrying that they will lash out in response, or bring it up for the next five years as an example of how fragile I am. I can say “when you are angry around me it makes me nervous, could you please try to be careful about how you express those feelings in my presence” to women without assuming that the response will be derision. I can say “I need some time to myself right now, it isn’t about not wanting to see you” to a woman and feel pretty safe that she believes me. Almost every woman that I know can manage these types of interpersonal exchanges.
But when I try to implement even the most basic of healthy emotional management practices (for myself) with most men, even with the most progressive, even with the ones who love me pretty unconditionally, the backlash tends to be IMMENSE and EXHAUSTING. I don’t even bother trying in the workplace, because it would only get me fired. I don’t have the option of implementing these practices on public transportation, or in a store, or in a restaurant, or while attending the March for Our Lives (me to man physically pushing against me even though he had two full feet of space on his other side— “can you please move forward a bit?” him— looked me dead in the eye, scoffed, moved a millimeter away so that I had to move myself instead), or on most of social media, or or or or.
When girls and women placate, and swallow down their anger, and stay quiet, and invisibly do work for other people, it isn’t always because they have been socialized into believing that those are Woman’s Duty and Doing So Leads to Gender-Appropriate Fulfillment. Knowing how to do something (manage your emotions in a healthy way) and having the ability and social space to do it are two different things.
Also, for any men reading this: the context of "most men don't know how to manage their emotions" is part of why you should know that men who scream and shout are scary to WAYYYY more people than you realize. Even if you are joking. Even if it is just a game. Even if your team missed the last shot. Even if you are just "blowing off steam". If you give me a random cortisol spike in public or at work or at home or anywhere, my brain begins to categorize you as "less safe". I'm less likely to be honest with you, or to tell you how I'm really doing. Not because I think you'll physically attack me, but because you have already caused me physical and emotional harm to make yourself feel better. I know it probably wasn't your intention, but my visceral instincts around you don't care. Just FYI.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:42 AM on March 28, 2018 [25 favorites]
Yeah I don't really play to win or anything. If the team needs a Mercy I'm Mercy.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:40 AM on March 28, 2018
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:40 AM on March 28, 2018
Dunno. Played OW last night, with a girl and a rather young Finnish boy and we all got along fine. (Although his frequent chanting of "BASTION!" was moderately annoying.) Amusingly enough, she and I both ran healers through all the matches.
posted by Samizdata at 1:10 PM on March 30, 2018
posted by Samizdata at 1:10 PM on March 30, 2018
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posted by bz at 7:52 AM on March 27, 2018