Fascist organizing in punk and metal
March 28, 2018 10:42 AM Subscribe
Toilet Ov Hell - Rock Against Anything: How Metal Became So Fucking Reactionary and What to Do About It
Noisey - A Brief But Very Informative History of How Fascists Infiltrated Punk and Metal
Noisey - A Brief But Very Informative History of How Fascists Infiltrated Punk and Metal
Man I have way too many things to I could say about this. I saw the TOH article earlier and it has some interesting parts but I'm glad you posted the Vice one because it does a bit address one of my complaints about the TOH article, which is that it doesn't actually do a very good job contextualizing the history. Though both seem to omit specific discussion of the 80s/90s wave of "anti-PC" themes in metal, or Pantera's Southern pride shit (and Phil's later "antics") or Slayer's Nazi fascination and reactionary flirtations - which is weird to me because a lot of that is more mainstream than far-right black metal, and connects to the discussion of transgression and who's just doing shock tactics versus who's doing shock tactics but is also kind of serious.
posted by atoxyl at 12:16 PM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 12:16 PM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
It's nice to see an article from an old colleague. What was really eye opening was the bit about Death in June and their ties to the National Front. A real pity, because I don't think I'll be able to enjoy their music as much now that I know that.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 12:26 PM on March 28, 2018
posted by LeRoienJaune at 12:26 PM on March 28, 2018
It's not like Death In June are exactly subtle about their influences or positions! Indeed, talking to my metal-nerd friends about how to treat neofolk as a whole is always a fascinating discussion.
posted by sagc at 12:30 PM on March 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:30 PM on March 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I don't know that I'd say I find dedicated metal people to be especially reactionary on average in person. I saw Chris Reifert from Autopsy fronting some side project band a little while ago and he took some shots at Trump. But then that's the Bay Area and also I'm mainly a stoner/doom/death guy and it's black metal that has the most particular association with nationalists and fascists.
The main thing I notice with metal people online (again more a black metal thing than anything though there's also Arghoslent or Disma) is that they're extremely willing to turn a blind eye to far-right ideology in bands that they like musically, even if they don't identify with it themselves. I think the double-insulation of a language barrier (because a lot of those bands are from Europe) and vocals that are hard to parse regardless makes it easier to do that. But the part that gets me is that they'll act like there's something wrong with you if you do care.
posted by atoxyl at 12:32 PM on March 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
The main thing I notice with metal people online (again more a black metal thing than anything though there's also Arghoslent or Disma) is that they're extremely willing to turn a blind eye to far-right ideology in bands that they like musically, even if they don't identify with it themselves. I think the double-insulation of a language barrier (because a lot of those bands are from Europe) and vocals that are hard to parse regardless makes it easier to do that. But the part that gets me is that they'll act like there's something wrong with you if you do care.
posted by atoxyl at 12:32 PM on March 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
it's black metal that has the most particular association with nationalists and fascists.
In niche/hardcore/extreme metal circles, I mean. There are probably more racist Pantera fans, numerically, in the U.S. than Grand Belial's Key fans. But among dedicated metal nerds it's the latter that I'm more likely to get in an argument about.
posted by atoxyl at 12:39 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
In niche/hardcore/extreme metal circles, I mean. There are probably more racist Pantera fans, numerically, in the U.S. than Grand Belial's Key fans. But among dedicated metal nerds it's the latter that I'm more likely to get in an argument about.
posted by atoxyl at 12:39 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
There are probably more racist Pantera fans, numerically, in the U.S. than Grand Belial's Key fans. But among dedicated metal nerds it's the latter that I'm more likely to get in an argument about.
I'd agree; racist Pantera/Slayer fans probably outnumber the underground alt-right by at least an order of magnitude. But it's among the more dedicated adherents to black metal and death metal that you'd be more likely to find active fascists, and as you point out, people who are willing to give fascists a pass because they like the music. You've got bands like Taake and the extremely popular Watain doing the 'it's just a joke' shtick with their very public flirting with Nazi imagery right now. Even the stoner/doom community is not immune, with shitheaded Portland-via-Austin douchebags Black Pussy going white grievance based on the pushback on their name.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:56 PM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'd agree; racist Pantera/Slayer fans probably outnumber the underground alt-right by at least an order of magnitude. But it's among the more dedicated adherents to black metal and death metal that you'd be more likely to find active fascists, and as you point out, people who are willing to give fascists a pass because they like the music. You've got bands like Taake and the extremely popular Watain doing the 'it's just a joke' shtick with their very public flirting with Nazi imagery right now. Even the stoner/doom community is not immune, with shitheaded Portland-via-Austin douchebags Black Pussy going white grievance based on the pushback on their name.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:56 PM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
for those of you who can't for some reason name a bunch of racist metal bands off the top of your head, Arghoslent and Grand Belial's Key are two U.S. bands which share members and are very explicit about their ideology, in English, but which I guess are considered strong enough musically that people will defend listening to albums with names like "Judeobeast Assasination" anyway?
and Disma is a "non-political" band fronted by a death metal veteran who became a Nazi "in his personal life" so you can figure out what the argument was after people noticed this and they started getting kicked off tours
posted by atoxyl at 1:03 PM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
and Disma is a "non-political" band fronted by a death metal veteran who became a Nazi "in his personal life" so you can figure out what the argument was after people noticed this and they started getting kicked off tours
posted by atoxyl at 1:03 PM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Not that it's an answer, but perhaps more of a palette cleanser, here's the Dead Kennedys Nazi Punks Fuck off!
I'm rather surprised no one beat me to the punch.
posted by evilDoug at 1:48 PM on March 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'm rather surprised no one beat me to the punch.
posted by evilDoug at 1:48 PM on March 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
Yeah, especially regarding the TOH link, I get that NWBM has a role to play, but like I listened to an Iron Maiden album on Spotify, and now I can't get Manowar or Saxon albums off of my recommendations. Both of those are bands that formed well before 1990, and even if they're not explicitly racist (which they could well be, I haven't listened to any of their songs to know), clearly traffic in fascist imagery.
I suppose even Iron Maiden is guilty of using that sort of imagery, insofar as a lot of their songs concern the glory of dying in battle or whatever. I will say it does seem like less of a deliberate choice with Iron Maiden, since I think their whole schtick is that they write about what they think are dramatic situations, and that encompasses the sort of man-against-the-world scenarios.
posted by phack at 1:55 PM on March 28, 2018
I suppose even Iron Maiden is guilty of using that sort of imagery, insofar as a lot of their songs concern the glory of dying in battle or whatever. I will say it does seem like less of a deliberate choice with Iron Maiden, since I think their whole schtick is that they write about what they think are dramatic situations, and that encompasses the sort of man-against-the-world scenarios.
posted by phack at 1:55 PM on March 28, 2018
even if they're not explicitly racist (which they could well be, I haven't listened to any of their songs to know)
I haven't actually listened to a ton of Saxon or Manowar but I don't think so - they mostly do generic fantasy/myth/battle/glory stuff and cheese about how great it is to be metal. But those are good examples of the background use of that kind of imagery because it looks powerful or "badass".
posted by atoxyl at 2:45 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I haven't actually listened to a ton of Saxon or Manowar but I don't think so - they mostly do generic fantasy/myth/battle/glory stuff and cheese about how great it is to be metal. But those are good examples of the background use of that kind of imagery because it looks powerful or "badass".
posted by atoxyl at 2:45 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
cheese metal, also known as power metal
posted by Existential Dread at 3:17 PM on March 28, 2018
posted by Existential Dread at 3:17 PM on March 28, 2018
This is why I stick to adventure metal. The Sword's only political stance is that magic is rad.
posted by lumpenprole at 3:46 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by lumpenprole at 3:46 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I get that NWBM has a role to play, I suppose even Iron Maiden is guilty of using that sort of imagery, insofar as a lot of their songs concern the glory of dying in battle or whatever.
What? If you think Iron Maiden is pushing some subliminal racist themes then you're uninformed. They don't have any "offensive" imagery unless you're offended by awesome fantasy horror comics.
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:00 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
What? If you think Iron Maiden is pushing some subliminal racist themes then you're uninformed. They don't have any "offensive" imagery unless you're offended by awesome fantasy horror comics.
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:00 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I haven't actually listened to a ton of Saxon or Manowar but I don't think so - they mostly do generic fantasy/myth/battle/glory stuff and cheese about how great it is to be metal. But those are good examples of the background use of that kind of imagery because it looks powerful or "badass
Exactly. Don't overthink it.
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:02 PM on March 28, 2018
Exactly. Don't overthink it.
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:02 PM on March 28, 2018
This is why I stick to adventure metal. The Sword's only political stance is that magic is rad.
I'm pretty sure Manowar's main political stance is that metal is rad.
What? If you think Iron Maiden is pushing some subliminal racist themes then you're uninformed. They don't have any "offensive" imagery unless you're offended by awesome fantasy horror comics.
Exactly. Don't overthink it.
I mean, go ahead and overthink it, if you want to. I wanted to clarify that those bands phack mentioned are not (to my knowledge) the sort of bands we were discussing upthread, but I think the use of iffy historical references to look cool or scary is part of the conversation - for one thing it makes it easier for outright right-wing bands to play it coy when it suits them.
(if you wanted to find something problematic about Iron Maiden I'd think it would be the British nationalist/empire imagery)
posted by atoxyl at 7:35 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty sure Manowar's main political stance is that metal is rad.
What? If you think Iron Maiden is pushing some subliminal racist themes then you're uninformed. They don't have any "offensive" imagery unless you're offended by awesome fantasy horror comics.
Exactly. Don't overthink it.
I mean, go ahead and overthink it, if you want to. I wanted to clarify that those bands phack mentioned are not (to my knowledge) the sort of bands we were discussing upthread, but I think the use of iffy historical references to look cool or scary is part of the conversation - for one thing it makes it easier for outright right-wing bands to play it coy when it suits them.
(if you wanted to find something problematic about Iron Maiden I'd think it would be the British nationalist/empire imagery)
posted by atoxyl at 7:35 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
LiquidWolf, that's not quite what I said at all. There's nothing particularly racialized about Iron Maiden (tho I guess you could argue the album art for Powerslave is kind of an example of Orientalism).
My point is that songs like "Die with your Boots On" and "The Trooper" can be read as glorifying the sacrifice of the individual for some greater country or organization, and of valorizing action for action's sake. Both of which tend to be common themes in fascistic movements.
However, the mere fact that Iron Maiden's music can have this feature doesn't mean that people should stop listening to it. It's not as if it's being used in some kind of propaganda effort to invade the Sudetenland or anything like that.
On preview: I thought I was gonna get the most pushback on suggesting these bands were metal, given how un-heavy they sound to my jaded millenial ears. Really the only thing I want to point out is that there already were reactionary tendencies in metal before 1985 or whatever. I guess you could argue that somehow Iron Maiden is dramatizing, rather than valorizing, self-sacrifice but I don't really buy that. Again, this is possibly my jaded millenial ears, but the Trooper sounds to me like the singer isn't all that upset or angry about the anonymous soldier getting fighting and dying.
posted by phack at 7:58 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
My point is that songs like "Die with your Boots On" and "The Trooper" can be read as glorifying the sacrifice of the individual for some greater country or organization, and of valorizing action for action's sake. Both of which tend to be common themes in fascistic movements.
However, the mere fact that Iron Maiden's music can have this feature doesn't mean that people should stop listening to it. It's not as if it's being used in some kind of propaganda effort to invade the Sudetenland or anything like that.
On preview: I thought I was gonna get the most pushback on suggesting these bands were metal, given how un-heavy they sound to my jaded millenial ears. Really the only thing I want to point out is that there already were reactionary tendencies in metal before 1985 or whatever. I guess you could argue that somehow Iron Maiden is dramatizing, rather than valorizing, self-sacrifice but I don't really buy that. Again, this is possibly my jaded millenial ears, but the Trooper sounds to me like the singer isn't all that upset or angry about the anonymous soldier getting fighting and dying.
posted by phack at 7:58 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Phack, to me, and I think most people, Iron Maiden in a particular is just going for visceral subject matter and imagery with out any real political stance. It's supposed to be thrilling. Yeah the British flag, and the Churchill speech at the beginning of their live shows, but mostly they get into fantasy, sci-fi fi, and historical themes. Run to the Hills is clearly condemning the Native American genocide and Two Minutes to Midnight is condemning the attitude of war and sacrificing innocent people for a military game. Plus if you've ever hear or read the guys speak they're much more about peace and camaraderie than promoting violence or division. And BTW they're definitely Metal - they practically invented it. You must've been too young to enjoy that, no offense.
I can see how someone who's never heard of them may wonder what was up with them but I don't think they exude any political agenda.
And finally I think the cover Powerslave is one of the greatest covers of all time- but then again I like that stuff. But to decry that as Orientalism is real stretch and furthermore.. so what?
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:18 AM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I can see how someone who's never heard of them may wonder what was up with them but I don't think they exude any political agenda.
And finally I think the cover Powerslave is one of the greatest covers of all time- but then again I like that stuff. But to decry that as Orientalism is real stretch and furthermore.. so what?
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:18 AM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
(if you wanted to find something problematic about Iron Maiden I'd think it would be the British nationalist/empire imagery)
Yeah if you're really determined to find something problematic then sure.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:21 AM on March 29, 2018
From the first link:
"In much of Western Europe and especially Scandinavia, however, Christianity had long been on the wane as a political force by the time metal had established itself as a true subculture. [...] The teenagers in the suburbs of Bergen, Stockholm and Göteborg faced neither the domineering cultural pressure exerted by Christianity that their American counterparts experienced, nor the firsthand knowledge of trauma inflicted by fascists wielding religion as a weapon that the Latin Americans had. To them the attraction to Satan was fueled purely by bourgeois nihilism – a sort of ennui experienced by all white middle-class youth when they come to realize how low-stakes their lives are. It was in this environment that the first truly reactionary strains of metal manifested."
This is relevant to current American developments, I think. I remember the olympic eyeroll I gave the first time I saw a picture of that idiotic kid from the Attomwaffen division, and of course he was wearing a Burzum tshirt.
posted by Tarumba at 8:30 AM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
"In much of Western Europe and especially Scandinavia, however, Christianity had long been on the wane as a political force by the time metal had established itself as a true subculture. [...] The teenagers in the suburbs of Bergen, Stockholm and Göteborg faced neither the domineering cultural pressure exerted by Christianity that their American counterparts experienced, nor the firsthand knowledge of trauma inflicted by fascists wielding religion as a weapon that the Latin Americans had. To them the attraction to Satan was fueled purely by bourgeois nihilism – a sort of ennui experienced by all white middle-class youth when they come to realize how low-stakes their lives are. It was in this environment that the first truly reactionary strains of metal manifested."
This is relevant to current American developments, I think. I remember the olympic eyeroll I gave the first time I saw a picture of that idiotic kid from the Attomwaffen division, and of course he was wearing a Burzum tshirt.
posted by Tarumba at 8:30 AM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Early Charlemagne Vs. Miracle Crimes?! I can't stand it, how could I choose!!
posted by wires at 9:20 AM on March 29, 2018
posted by wires at 9:20 AM on March 29, 2018
Iron Maiden's lyrics are almost largely about "I read a book/poem or saw a film and I found it interesting and here is a song about it". There is absolutely no reason to look any deeper into it than that. If you want a political statement from them, this is readily available at any of their concerts where Bruce Dickinson will at some point hold forth about their vision of Iron Maiden fans as a global family bringing diverse cultures together and how discrimination on the basis of race, sex, gender, orientation, ability etc etc. is not OK.
Compared to most popular music, Iron Maiden and their lyrics are decidedly wholesome, and the same would apply to e.g. Saxon and many others too.
This is the problem with the two articles linked here, and with many others, that treat the whole of the genre and its many sub-genres as a single entity characterised by a few cherry-picked examples. Sure, you can find bands and scenes within metal that are racist, misogynist or nationalist but they do not speak for most metal bands or metal fans. And if you go through any list of 'most influential metal bands' you'll find as many with a right-on message as with a problematic one - and a far greater number with no particular message at all.
posted by nowonmai at 4:04 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Compared to most popular music, Iron Maiden and their lyrics are decidedly wholesome, and the same would apply to e.g. Saxon and many others too.
This is the problem with the two articles linked here, and with many others, that treat the whole of the genre and its many sub-genres as a single entity characterised by a few cherry-picked examples. Sure, you can find bands and scenes within metal that are racist, misogynist or nationalist but they do not speak for most metal bands or metal fans. And if you go through any list of 'most influential metal bands' you'll find as many with a right-on message as with a problematic one - and a far greater number with no particular message at all.
posted by nowonmai at 4:04 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
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posted by Existential Dread at 10:48 AM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]