Not So United Front
March 29, 2018 7:22 AM   Subscribe

“Some have turned federal informant. Others are facing prison time. More are named in looming lawsuits. All of them are fighting.“ The Alt-Right Is Having A Bad Month.

”Atomwaffen is an extremist group that received national attention after being implicated in five murders from May 2017 to January 2018. But even before the most recent slaying, Atomwaffen was under fire from others on the far right who claimed the group was actually a mouthpiece for the Order of Nine Angles, a satanic group that encourages members to infiltrate extremist political movements, whose members might be susceptible to conversion.” Satanism Drama Is Tearing Apart the Murderous Neo-Nazi Group Atomwaffen.” Kelly Weill (Daily Beast)
posted by The Whelk (90 comments total) 60 users marked this as a favorite
 
BOO FUCKING HOO.

i don’t even know what to think about the cackle that came out of my mouth at the words “Satanism drama,” but fuck it, I’ll take it where I can get it. Bad news for Nazis is my favorite kind of news.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:29 AM on March 29, 2018 [72 favorites]


Petty squabbling and internal drama is probably the base state of these guys, they're all inclined to seeing conspiracies and illuminati plots around every corner. For all their talk about racial solidarity they don't have much reason to trust each other. The only reason they were able to put together a united front in recent months is probably because of the favorable political environment.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:33 AM on March 29, 2018 [28 favorites]


^ Eponytruthful.
posted by adamgreenfield at 7:33 AM on March 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


This post pairs extremely well with ohoho
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:40 AM on March 29, 2018 [44 favorites]


Oh, and if there’s any cohort on Earth flakier and more schism-prone than fascists, it’s occultists – most especially and unsurprisingly among Satanists of the LaVeyan variety, who after all exalt ego as well as Will. Color me unstartled to see ego-driven cleaving and splintering wherever they go.
posted by adamgreenfield at 7:45 AM on March 29, 2018 [19 favorites]


*crosses his fingers and sneers in his best Palpatine voice*

Good! Ggggoooooddddd!
posted by SansPoint at 7:46 AM on March 29, 2018 [16 favorites]


Matthew Heimbach’s arrest in a March trailer park brawl with members of his neo-Nazi group family —some of whom he was allegedly screwing—felt like a too-obvious metaphor.

ftfy
posted by murphy slaw at 7:47 AM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


The stuff going on in the first article and the second are so tonally different. I'm comfortable going "yes cry more" about the interpersonal TWP drama and whatever. But the Atomwaffen stuff--when they talk about people being implicated in murders, one of the victims was a gay Jewish teenager and whatever drama is going on is against that backdrop and it's really not something I'm going to snicker over.
posted by Sequence at 7:47 AM on March 29, 2018 [16 favorites]


Yeah, the Atomwaffen stuff is scary as hell. While moral scolds (including a lot of people on the left) are throwing bratty temper tantrums over Those Damn College Kids And PC Culture, people are being fucking murdered. I'd love to be able to laugh at dumbass white supremacists and their enablers, but as long as their targets are suffering and dying while so-called "moderates" and "centrists" complain that the left is real enemy of freedom, I can't really bring myself to do it.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:04 AM on March 29, 2018 [73 favorites]


I'm sad to hear that Satanism is getting caught up in all of this. I thought Satanists were cool. Well, not cool, but you know -- this is like finding out that Nixon was a Quaker, all over again.

...okay, wait, don't tell me, I just followed the world's worst wiki trail to discover the link between LaVey and eugenics, and then Quaker Oats experimentation on children, then I noped out before I found something worse. I still appreciate the Satanists keeping abortion rights open. Those guys probably aren't aligned with Nazis, though.

It's worth noting that a lot of the fractures in the civil rights movement were caused or exacerbated by the interference of the FBI. These white pride idiots can't even keep it together when they've got an entire government propping them up.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:05 AM on March 29, 2018 [11 favorites]


grandiloqueit, there are two groups of Satanist. There are the LaVey assholes who combine eugenics, Ayn Rand and Crowley (badly in all cases) in an unpleasant glop. There are the Satanic Temple people who use religious freedom laws to put up monuments or lead prayers in communities that have enacted these laws with the intention of having lots of Christian stuff floating around. They're really using Satanic imagery to promote government not getting mixed up with religion in the first place.

They're quite different, but are, unfortunately easy to mix up, given how similar the names can be.
posted by Hactar at 8:10 AM on March 29, 2018 [64 favorites]


So are we still punching these dudes, or are we going to let themselves tear themselves apart?
Because I really think they need to be punched. And arrested. And prosecuted. And jailed.
Maybe these two things are not mutually exclusive.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 8:16 AM on March 29, 2018 [16 favorites]


It's really awkward being a Satanist right now. I mean, it always is, but, like the last time the ONA came up was back in the early days of the WWW and we all treated it like a weird British rumour. But here's a quick rundown:

1. Church of Satan - 1966 - specifically has minimal political feelings other than taxation of churches and, I suppose now, legalizing robots. This is where I am, and I'm not technically a media representative but I can speak to my own experience as a established and ranked member. I'm a goddamn socialist and I have church friends who run the gamut from slightly more economically liberal than me to isolationist libertarians with a wide swath of 'idgaf'.

ETA: I think Crowley was a hack full of drugs and Rand was a hack full of hypocricy and misogyny so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2. ONA - ??? but was being mentioned like a spooky cousin in the late 1990s on the internet. Fucking Nazis. I have not seen overlap in the groups I run in, and I know they get gleefully thrown out of at least some discussion groups online. There are a few other fringe types that I won't bother naming that combine a white-power rhetoric with anti-Christian themes.

3. 'Satanic' Temple - 2012 - blatantly political, no real religious beliefs that I can see outside non-theism. This is the embarassing cousin.
posted by Weighted Companion Cube at 8:19 AM on March 29, 2018 [23 favorites]


If celebrating the disintegration of Nazi groups is wrong, I don’t want to be right.
posted by corb at 8:22 AM on March 29, 2018 [23 favorites]


Hail Satan!
posted by Existential Dread at 8:24 AM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


"Atomwaffen’s satanism-heavy reading list has apparently driven away some former members who were only in the group for the Nazism."

Because, you know, standards.
posted by tresbizzare at 8:28 AM on March 29, 2018 [81 favorites]


Because I really think they need to be punched. And arrested. And prosecuted. And jailed.

The best play looks to be to let them can punch each other. Then all things can happen.
posted by bonehead at 8:31 AM on March 29, 2018 [17 favorites]


Companion Cube, I was going off of what I've read online in a few places and a brief, really embarrassing few months from my high school years. I'm glad to see that it was more me being a stupid teenager than an actual reflection on the church.
posted by Hactar at 8:35 AM on March 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


It feels strange to be declaring victory. Sure, these dumb little groups may be falling apart but there will be new ones. And even a disorganized group can be dangerous. But most importantly the white supremacist ideology is standing strong and has fellow travelers in the White House making and implementing policy.
posted by Nelson at 8:38 AM on March 29, 2018 [13 favorites]


If celebrating the disintegration of Nazi groups is wrong, I don’t want to be right.

I wouldn't call it disintegration, really. It's more like when a congregation splits, and from one church springs many.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:38 AM on March 29, 2018 [5 favorites]


Satanism Drama Is Tearing Apart the Murderous Neo-Nazi Group Atomwaffen

Have courage, my friend
posted by flabdablet at 8:43 AM on March 29, 2018


while so-called "moderates" and "centrists" complain that the left is real enemy of freedom

To be fair, the folks who do the bulk of that are more your self-styled "moderates" and "centrists" than your so-called "moderates" and "centrists".
posted by flabdablet at 8:48 AM on March 29, 2018 [12 favorites]


Would be pretty great if the state would martial its considerable resources to prosecute Nazi murderers with the same ferocity with which they go after...anyone else, really. But they don’t. To the point where what’s left, to hurt Nazis? Self-inflicted high school drama.

I can’t spend all my time crying, guys. I have to laugh at something.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:49 AM on March 29, 2018 [6 favorites]


Just because the Nazis are tearing themselves apart doesn't mean we can't keep punching them, too. Every little bit helps.
posted by SansPoint at 8:52 AM on March 29, 2018 [24 favorites]


Umm...

flabdablet, what? 'splain it to me.
posted by evilDoug at 8:53 AM on March 29, 2018


If there's a 2018 alt-right reboot of Rebel Without a Cause, then there has to be a James Dean analogue Method Acting as he shrieks, "Satan, you're tearing me APAAAAAAART!!"
posted by jonp72 at 8:54 AM on March 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


Hactar, I appreciate it. It's tough to have an overarching philosophy when the principles specifically do not dictate certain areas of concern, which allows for a wider range than might be seen in modern Christian denominations - they've had their Luthers and King Henrys and have enough adherents for a faction to gain traction as a separate entitiy. A 50 year old idea absolutely still has its...teenage moments.


and yeah i had my rand phase but we all do stupid shit as teenagers
posted by Weighted Companion Cube at 8:58 AM on March 29, 2018


(Have now gone down an ONA rabbithole myself this past hour. I withdraw the accusation of LaVeyanism, but stand by my point regarding schism.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:00 AM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


Cheering on satanists is very 2018.
posted by slogger at 9:00 AM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


Wait, how are Temple Satanists embarrassing?
posted by XtinaS at 9:04 AM on March 29, 2018 [5 favorites]


It's pretty fascinating listening to Mike Enoch, Andrew Anglin and Weev as they slowly realize that Atomwaffen actually exist. There's not really any critical self-reflection yet (and certainly no admitted responsibility) but there's definitely unease and a dawning dismay: they can't really argue any more that the Left is producing greater monsters in Antifa.

As of now it seems that the lion's share of near-future alt-right-inspired domestic terrorism is going to come from members or ex-members of Atomwaffen. It being a pan-genocidal deathcult, some of that violence will come back to target current Alt-Right leaders: this revolution might still kill us all, but it'll eat its own, too. I think some of the dapper Nazis have that in the back of their heads. Good.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:07 AM on March 29, 2018 [15 favorites]


I don't read the Daily Beast regularly and so wasn't familiar with Weills's work, but man, she really makes these guys (murderous racist thugs though they may be) look like complete buffoons. This piece is worth a look for another racist group engaging in self-destruction: Neo-Nazi Gang Busted After Accidentally Discussing Murder While on Phone With 911.
posted by TedW at 9:15 AM on March 29, 2018 [6 favorites]


Order of Nine Angles, a satanic group that encourages members to infiltrate extremist political movements, whose members might be susceptible to conversion.

God love 'em.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:22 AM on March 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


It feels strange to be declaring victory. Sure, these dumb little groups may be falling apart but there will be new ones. And even a disorganized group can be dangerous.

Depending on the aims, there doesn't need to be a rl group at all. It seems like maintaining a carrier signal of terrorist rhetoric and awaiting the angry young white men is enough.

We have plenty of firepower floating around to be picked up, so the logistics/support advantage of a group is worth less risk than it would be otherwise. And since the targets are almost invariably marginalized, unarmed, or otherwise powerless, ain't like they need much. Just a match awaiting a fuse.

Which is all to say that, while I'm still struggling with my Yankee cultural instincts about open expression, sometimes you really do have to stomp out an idea. The cost of appearing to entertain it must be so high, no one wants anywhere near even the relatively safe 'meme' stage of the pipeline.
posted by BS Artisan at 9:26 AM on March 29, 2018 [5 favorites]


Got my SPLC 'Intelligence Report' yesterday, which is full of maps of hate groups across the US. There's a digital version as well. Keep in mind that it seems that hate groups which are "state wide" are shown in a seemingly random location. So the Neo Nazis in New Jersey probably don't have a headquarters in the Wharton State Forest.
posted by runcibleshaw at 9:28 AM on March 29, 2018 [6 favorites]


I think that maybe a lot of these guys are complete buffoons, at least until they find something that gives them some purpose and direction. After all, the individual sticks that make up the fasces break easily if they're not bundled up. The Order of Nine Angles sounds tailor-made for teenage edgelordism, and the bit from the Daily Beast (which really sounds like the sort of news organization that you'd expect a Satanist to found) where new members are expected "to spend six months either hitchhiking, working as a burglar, working as a police officer, or infiltrating an extremist political group" is a bit random... but then you wonder if anyone went for the cop option, and stayed there.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:29 AM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


I think that maybe a lot of these guys are complete buffoons

Himmler was a failed chicken farmer who believed he could communicate telepathically with gnomes in the hollow earth. There is no Nazi/Nazi-Buffoon dichotomy.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:31 AM on March 29, 2018 [85 favorites]


IIRC the Rite of Nine Angles is a bit of LaVey nonsense to summon Lovecraft's Great Old Ones. Stop intruding on my actual reality, Delta Green.
posted by Artw at 9:31 AM on March 29, 2018 [9 favorites]


Reading about Chris Cantwell aka the 'crying nazi' coming out as a nark for the Feds in order to somehow destroy antifa reminded me of the time Big Pussy was outed as a rat on the Sopranos and he claimed to be a double agent.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:37 AM on March 29, 2018 [9 favorites]


The Satanism drama is amusing, and Atomwaffen appears to be easily the most dangerous of the motley alt-right groups, but I think one of the key ledes is here:
Cantwell has good reason to try to deflect blame onto anti-fascist protesters. In addition to his pending criminal charges, he is named in two civil lawsuits against Unite the Right rioters. (He is only a defendant in one of the cases.) Between them, the lawsuits also name Spencer, the TWP, Identity Evropa, and the League of the South, the latter of which signed an agreement Monday not to host any future armed protests in Charlottesville.

Beirich said the two lawsuits “will probably drive some other people to abandon the movement. They just don’t want to get caught up in the legal fees.”
There are a variety of lawsuits facing these idiots based on their public activities, from criminal cases to harrassment and defamation lawsuits. Chuck Johnson, Gavin McInnes, Jim Hoft (Gateway Pundit), and Paul Nehlen, among others, are facing a pretty slam-dunk defamation lawsuit based on their misidentification of the person responsible for the Charlottesville attack. Daily Stormer owner and operator Andrew Anglin is also fleeing harrassment lawsuits. Based Stickman is up on felony charges. InfoWars is facing defamation lawsuits. There are significant real-world costs for these guys once they leave the safety of their basements and message boards, and now we're seeing the rats scatter.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:38 AM on March 29, 2018 [32 favorites]


As someone raised out of religion (with attendant anthropological interest in others' religion), I feel like I would really enjoy the schisms in Satanism if they didn't involve Nazis. That also feels terribly 2018.
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:40 AM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


I don't know who said it first, but the more I read about the Alt-Right, the more true the statement "White supremacy is self-refuting" becomes.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:58 AM on March 29, 2018 [51 favorites]


2018's writers can just fuck right off.
posted by ocschwar at 9:58 AM on March 29, 2018 [9 favorites]


Also, Satanism by definition attracts edgelords who want to pose as being terribly wicked, as it has done since Crowley's time at least. Not all of them are sufficiently well-adjusted to just promenade about calling themselves imposing titles and twirling their mustachios theatrically. A lot of these people are also attracted to various forms of universally-recognised evil, such as Nazism, paedophilia, ISIS and so on, for much the same reason.
posted by acb at 10:08 AM on March 29, 2018 [4 favorites]


Atomwaffen’s satanism-heavy reading list has apparently driven away some former members who were only in the group for the Nazism.

At least it's an ethos.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:16 AM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


So this one time, I was walking down the street, and coming towards me was a large group of furries. I looked behind me, and there was a large group of Ren Faire people carrying swords and clubs and stuff. They were probably unrelated, but I was worried that I was about to be cast as Michael Jackson in a very strange re-enactment of the Beat It video.

I always thought that would be the most surreal juxtaposition of subcultures I'd ever come across. Then I saw an article in a major media outlet about Nazis and Satanists. There's a lesson here: no matter how surreal you think something may be, there's always something more surreal.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:23 AM on March 29, 2018 [17 favorites]


It is funny that for "christian" supremacists the line isn't amorality that flaunts their professed dedication to purity and temperance, direct abnegation of Jesus' central teachings of peace and love, nor monstrous greed and self interest, but rather some dime-store paganism that's apparently the line too far. I guess that isn't surprising, since the super mainstream faith of prosperity doctrine is essentially new-wave thinking in line with The Secret with Jesus' name glued onto it. The difference is in the marketing.
posted by codacorolla at 10:28 AM on March 29, 2018 [15 favorites]


Nazis can no longer burn in hell. Satan former ruler of Hell is sad as lease expires; ownership rights for domain of infinite darkness and suffering remain in limbo, or perhaps aren't in Limbo, as that lease has also has expired.
posted by mfoight at 10:58 AM on March 29, 2018


A third branch of satanism is The Temple of Set, but I have not followed the scene in a couple of decades, and have no idea how or indeed if they match up with any of this.
posted by bouvin at 11:10 AM on March 29, 2018


There's also some extensive reporting out today from Brendan O'Connor at Splinter News: The Fascist Right is Bloodied and Soiled.
In Everything You Love Will Burn, journalist Vegas Tenold reveals that Heimbach was trained at the Leadership Institute, a think tank in Washington, DC, whose alumni include Mitch McConnell, Grover Norquist, and James O’Keefe; that Heimbach is hugely influenced by Pat Buchanan; and that, on Inauguration Day, Heimbach was introduced to a room full of GOP strategists and state legislators at the Capitol Hill Club, directly across from the Capitol building. “A few years ago the GOP wouldn’t be able to even sit in the same room as you, but things have changed, and now we need each other,” Heimbach’s Republican contact told him, as quoted by Tenold. “This is a big day.”

For most of Barack Obama’s presidency, right-wing extremist organizing outside of the Republican Party proper took place in the world of militias and sovereign citizens, culminating in the standoff at the Bundy ranch in April and May 2014 and the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in January and February 2016. Referred to broadly as the “Patriot movement,” groups like the Oath Keepers, the Three Percent Security Force, and the Minuteman Project were marked by many of the same racist and misogynistic pathologies that course through the far right today, and many members would become staunch Donald Trump supporters during his presidential campaign. While the GOP has traditionally sought to maintain a certain plausible deniability in its relationship to the fringe right, the Trump campaign threw open Pandora’s box, welcoming the avowed white supremacists, anti-Semites, and fascists who stalked the ideological fringes of American politics.

[…]

“When I got involved with the white nationalist movement seven years ago, everything was constitutions, American flags, and bald eagles. It was about who could be the most American and what are states’ rights. George Wallace tried this in ‘68 and ‘72. This has been tried and it doesn’t work. It always unravels, because it’s insincere,” he told me. “If someone is willing to put down the American flag, put down the Constitution, put aside democracy and republican forms of government, and instead work towards the creation of an independent nation that’s built for us and by us, I don’t think they’re going to be sidelined too much by an odal rune.”
There's a lot more I could paste here, but I'll stop there.
posted by fedward at 11:13 AM on March 29, 2018 [26 favorites]


Types of Satanists include (but are not limited to):

Church of Satan - the LaVey crowd: "dedicated to the acceptance of Man’s true nature—that of a carnal beast, living in a cosmos that is indifferent to our existence. To us, Satan is the symbol that best suits the nature of we who are carnal by birth." Atheists. Mostly assholes. Almost defunct in the US.

Temple of Satan - the new crowd that gets mixed up with them a lot. "The mission of The Satanic Temple is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people, reject tyrannical authority, advocate practical common sense and justice, and be directed by the human conscience to undertake noble pursuits guided by the individual will." Political. Ostensibly agnostic. "religion can, and should, be divorced from superstition. ... To embrace the name Satan is to embrace rational inquiry removed from supernaturalism and archaic tradition-based superstitions."

Temple of Set - "an organization with one task: to provide an environment in which individuals discover, pursue, and realize their unique purpose and destiny." Doesn't get the attention of the others because they don't have the 5-letter "S" word in their description, but has many of the same basic philosophical approaches: "we preserve and improve the tradition of spiritual distinction from the cultural universe, which in the Judeo-Christian West has been called Satanism, but which is more generally known as the Left-Hand Path."

Theistic Satanism - the polytheistic version, acknowledging that Satan is just one god among many: "Satan relates to humans in a way very different from how the Christian "God" does. The Christian "God" seeks vast hordes of human worshippers. Satan seems to want some human worshippers, but not very many. For the most part, Satan makes trouble for Yahweh on the human plane not by competing for worshppers, but simply by inspiring people to think for themselves. Satan champions, among other things, independent thought, creativity, and human empowerment (in Christian terms, our "Evil" desire to "become as gods"), e.g. via science and technology."

There are more, including endless tiny pockets of anti-Christian "we are EVIL!!!" wannabe occultists who really have no idea what they're doing and just want to piss off their local church.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:28 AM on March 29, 2018 [23 favorites]


that's very informative but you're leaving out the most important detail:

who throws the best parties
posted by murphy slaw at 11:32 AM on March 29, 2018 [11 favorites]


Came for the nazi punching, was not disappoint.
posted by chavenet at 11:34 AM on March 29, 2018 [4 favorites]


murphy slaw: The Church of the SubGenius
posted by SansPoint at 11:37 AM on March 29, 2018 [13 favorites]


who throws the best parties

I went to a pretty awesome talk about the history of Ouija boards at the Satanic Temple and won a haunted board in a raffle. Nick Groff was sitting next to me and was well jelly.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:37 AM on March 29, 2018 [10 favorites]


Nick Groff was sitting next to me and was well jelly.

Just out of curiosity, what does this mean?
posted by 2N2222 at 11:42 AM on March 29, 2018


He was very jealous.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:44 AM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


It must be noted that while "Ironic Nazi" collapses as the Real Nazi underneath is exposed, "Ironic Satanist" is on the ascendancy.

But then, we keep hearing that "Irony Is Dead" since just after Y2K and 9/11... I WISH.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:53 AM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


The well jelly is also in the first edition AD&D Monster Manual, which is an odd coincidence considering that playing AD&D was supposed to lead us all to Satanism back in the 80s.
posted by Quindar Beep at 12:07 PM on March 29, 2018 [23 favorites]


The well jelly is also in the first edition AD&D Monster Manual, which is an odd coincidence considering that playing AD&D was supposed to lead us all to Satanism back in the 80s.

Well, we do have a Gelatinous-Cube-American as President.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:11 PM on March 29, 2018 [23 favorites]


3. 'Satanic' Temple - 2012 - blatantly political, no real religious beliefs that I can see outside non-theism. This is the embarassing cousin.

Psst--we're not thrilled by the Church of Satan either, if that makes you feel better. Our Tenets are right there on the front, and if you think that I don't believe them every bit as sincerely as any other religious adherent, I'll be happy to talk to you more about why I'm with the Temple. It's not purely politics--it's that this is a group of people with whom I can share my strong and honest moral beliefs with in a way I haven't been able to find in any other organization, and then I can find other folks to get up and do something about it.

When understanding the ill will between the Church of Satan and the Satanic Temple, it's probably important to understand that one of the big shifts in the philosophy behind the Temple is to jettison most of the "lair" dramatic language and the occultism entirely in favor of creating community and going out and doing something good in our lives, ideally with a sense of humor and a clear and reasonable moral framework. Honestly, for you non-Satanists in the room, the closest parallel is probably the tension you see among Christians between Catholics and some Protestants about emphasizing good works versus good faith--the Temple thinks it's important to get the hell out and make sure that our perspective has room too in the world, whereas as far as I can tell the Church of Satan is much more focused on attaining personal power. Think of us as devil's advocates in the oldest classical use of the term, or like public defenders with a sense of humor.

(We also don't believe in tax-exemption for churches, incidentally, so we agree with you on that much.)
posted by sciatrix at 12:20 PM on March 29, 2018 [46 favorites]


3. 'Satanic' Temple - 2012 - blatantly political, no real religious beliefs that I can see outside non-theism. This is the embarassing cousin.

Are you sure that's the embarrassing cousin? Like you have ONA on that list. ONA, who think Hitler was "a gift from the gods" and you think the Temple are the embarrassing cousin?
posted by Tarumba at 12:55 PM on March 29, 2018 [16 favorites]


Atomwaffen’s satanism-heavy reading list has apparently driven away some former members who were only in the group for the Nazism.


Is it the Satan part, or the reading part?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:15 PM on March 29, 2018 [23 favorites]


You know, I think all we need to see about the strongly right's ability to show loyalty and unity shows up on what's coming out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
posted by Samizdata at 1:25 PM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


It must be noted that while "Ironic Nazi" collapses as the Real Nazi underneath is exposed, "Ironic Satanist" is on the ascendancy.

But then, we keep hearing that "Irony Is Dead" since just after Y2K and 9/11... I WISH.


I would say the main difference there is that being a Real Nazi is extremely bad to the point of being one of the very worst things a person could choose to be, being a Real Satanist is more or less morally neutral in itself.
posted by Copronymus at 1:34 PM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


I would have to side with the satanic nazis on the point that the two belief systems they are drawing from are ideologically compatible
posted by knoyers at 1:35 PM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


Huh. The nut jobs were right. The Internet actually did get me interested in Satanism.
posted by BS Artisan at 1:37 PM on March 29, 2018 [11 favorites]


What? No, being a Satanist is absolutely not "ideologically compatible" with being a Nazi. Perhaps their specific brand of it is, but as it is largely practiced today, it's far less compatible than modern Christianity. Remember, it was support or indifference from both Protestants and sympathetic Catholics (including the Vatican itself) that gave credibility to much of the Nazi's ideological animus towards Jews, LGBTQ people, Romani, and other marginalized groups.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:45 PM on March 29, 2018 [13 favorites]


More from the US Holocaust Museum: The German Churches and the Nazi State

FWIW, there is nothing I could find on their site having to do with Satanism, apart from the fact that the use of it in accusations leveled against Jews has been one of the keystones in anti-Semitic rhetoric since the first days of Christianity.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:54 PM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


Are you sure that's the embarrassing cousin?

Embarrassing cousin = would still have a beer with.
Scary (was 'spooky' but I've upgraded it) cousin = doesn't get to know where I moved to.

believe them every bit as sincerely as any other religious adherent

It doesn't make it necessarily a religion, though. I believe in the principles of my profession's code of ethics sincerely. But the whole concept of what makes a religion a religion and not (just, or containing?) a moral philosophy is a complicated thing that I am actively working on getting the language to discuss. If there is no concept of the ineffable, is it a religion?

From my cubical experience, a lot of the initial propulsion that created a rift between the groups - or grated the most on members I know - was the TST's (perceived vs actual) push for children's involvement. That's an area that modern CoS people don't touch, and always kept at arms' length even when you could join with parental permission as a minor (which you can't anymore). There's also an aspect of privacy that has always been somewhat paramount, since it isn't a 'wholesome' (or safe) thing to be known of; TST is loud and out and that butts heads with old guard 'keep it quiet' thinking.
posted by Weighted Companion Cube at 2:04 PM on March 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


There is no Nazi/Nazi-Buffoon dichotomy.

There’s a definite synergy. As I’ve said elsewhere, the sleep of reason produces monsters, and not necessarily the monsters you expected. You can start with the Hollow Earth and end at genicide or vise versa. This is one of the effects that ruined conspiracy theories for me.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:09 PM on March 29, 2018 [5 favorites]


The really new thing from the first link is that “the crying Nazi” who had the big Vice interview and came off as buggy and paranoid as hell has apparently turned informant? Or that, like how the antifascist work of Unicorn Riot proved, they did all of these extremly illegal, extremly implicating planning on a discord server.

It’s funny that Spenser said “Antifascists won” when he cancelled the rest of his speaking dates but as Jack Smith IV says on SH!TPOST it was probibky cause no one was showing up.
, he also says that they predicted this kind of breakdown was predicted for a while, Charolettesville was supposed to unite all the disparate factions into a whole but the three percenters hate the Chan trolls and the “respectable indentations” dont like having actual Nazi symbolism at thier rallies and a fight breaks out whenever anyone says who is and is not “alt-right” (they spawn so many new terms and categories it’s worse then like 20year old music fans I swear)

The general prediction is that...it’s lots of lawsuits for the foreseeable future,

But Smith also mentions that ...you know who we where afraid of in in 02? Militant evangelicals, the gun and bible crowd, and they haven’t gone away they just went underground or allinged themselves with other fringe ideaologies snd they can hide in plain sight easier. Nothing really goes away it just hides- r ever how many media figures ended up being, if not full on Nazis then st least Nazi Friendly? Like well after there was no plausible deniability for that? Remember “centipedes”?

Anyway on the upside Milo’s charity closed without giving out any money.
posted by The Whelk at 2:26 PM on March 29, 2018 [8 favorites]


But the whole concept of what makes a religion a religion and not (just, or containing?) a moral philosophy is a complicated thing that I am actively working on getting the language to discuss. If there is no concept of the ineffable, is it a religion?

I mean, that's a really good question! But at the same time, our definition of religion encompasses some things that aren't very focused on the ineffable--for example, the argument I just cited about good works versus faith is a very old theological argument about whether or not the ineffable matters very much compared to the earthly. From a certain point of view, an optimistically nihilist view of "there's no point to life except to be human, so I chose to be human as kindly as I can" is sort of a logical extension of that good works-oriented value tradition within religion. The ineffable will become effable or sort itself out: for now, I concern myself with what I can control and do on Earth.

I'm ex-Catholic and usually refer to myself as culturally Catholic where relevant, which might shine some light: as far as I'm concerned, the body of theology and ethics written by men is certainly as important as directly experienced ineffable, and maybe more so. I've spoken to some folks who identify as simultaneously atheistic and Jewish who feel similarly, and the same goes for some folks who quietly attend Unitarian Universalist congregations.

I have my own sense of spirituality, too, and I'm building my own household rituals, less because I believe that that have power to the metaphysical world and more because I understand the power of reflection and ritual to anchor a person in the rhythms of life and history. I have candles with figures I burn when I need to feel connected to certain historical realities and traditions. I have decorations to celebrate the changing of seasons and to mark lifetime events. I pause to live my life in accordance with the tenets and use them as a useful mental moral reference bar in much the same way as Christians invoke the Ten Commandments.

I understand these things as things that bring me comfort and bring community and identity to my home, not as invoking spiritual forces that can legitimately change my physical situation. But I'm building them anyway.

So my counterargument, I suppose, is that religion serves many purposes in the life of humans, and only one of those functions is to explain the ineffable. Why should that single function be required to qualify the category, particularly in an environment that elevates the category to such social and cultural prominence?
posted by sciatrix at 2:27 PM on March 29, 2018 [21 favorites]


(I do feel your issues with TST and children, mind--but I suppose that's another difference in that I get the sense that TST's opinions on children are that it ought to exist as an organization with a function for protecting children from corporal punishment, if they want that protection, or to otherwise act as a guardian of children if that is appropriate for children associated with the org already.

I would raise a child with this religion, but then I'm also feeling slightly better because I believe the Temple would back me if my family was targeted, and I believe that they would have a pretty good legal case under current religious freedom law. I understand whole heartedly that this has not always been the case for Satanists, but I'm also a young person who was born in the twilight of the Satanic Panic and grew up in the shadow of its backlash.
posted by sciatrix at 2:32 PM on March 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


The Whelk: I at least like to think that the more effort these fuckers have to spend hiding and disguising their ideology, the less time they have to actually get that ideology out in front of people. It's harder to shut it down when it's an amorphous, shifting ideology, but it's also harder to get people to sign on to an amorphous, shifting ideology

And, as we've seen, the masks always slip eventually, and then we can really shut these assholes down properly.

The biggest obstacle, though, is the infiltration by Neo-Nazis and other fascist sympathizers into the ranks of law enforcement, and even the judiciary under Trump.
posted by SansPoint at 2:35 PM on March 29, 2018 [9 favorites]


It doesn't make it necessarily a religion, though. I believe in the principles of my profession's code of ethics sincerely. But the whole concept of what makes a religion a religion and not (just, or containing?) a moral philosophy is a complicated thing that I am actively working on getting the language to discuss. If there is no concept of the ineffable, is it a religion?

People keep trying to use that sort of argument to strip Unitarian-Universalists of their religious status, but so far they've not succeeded. For good reason I think. sciatrix's description above could as well describe many people's UU-ism (just maybe throw in some pot-luck Sunday lunches and hymns about coffee).
posted by Secret Sparrow at 2:37 PM on March 29, 2018 [8 favorites]


So, is this the scene where Kylo Ren force-chokes Huxl?
posted by happyroach at 3:00 PM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


Order Nine Angles grimoire can be found here.

It is no secret that the Order is an MI5 honey pot for skinheads through and through and from the beginning. The guy who started it was born and raised in the service.
posted by bukvich at 4:03 PM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


Several years ago, the Archdruid Report did an article about the religious activities of Republicans, in which he points out what religion does line up with current Republican values:
here are the [bible] passages in which Jesus tells his followers to blame the poor and vulnerable for their plight, direct benefits toward the already well-to-do at the expense of everyone else, refuse to pay their fair share of taxes, and obsessively denounce and punish the sins of people they don’t like while finding every opportunity to excuse their own sins and those of their friends:







Yet these latter are the things that a great many Republicans, and in particular a great many of those Republicans who claim to be motivated by their Christian faith, have been pursuing in practice, if not always advocating in theory. If they’re deriving their commitments from a religion, it’s pretty clearly not the one taught by Jesus. Many people have made this same point in recent years, but it doesn’t seem to have occurred to any of them that another religion that’s active in today’s America does teach all the things the GOP supports. That religion, of course, is Satanism, and more specifically the version of it taught in Anton Szandor LaVey’s The Satanic Bible.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:21 PM on March 29, 2018 [8 favorites]


Who could imagine that movements based on everyone following their own self-interest would fall apart?
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:23 PM on March 29, 2018 [7 favorites]


Everyone in the Church of Satan is an asshole, especially the leadership. Setites are mostly decent folks. TST are at least doing something useful.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:21 PM on March 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


By all appearances, this is what a standard FBI COINTELPRO looks like after a year or two's worth of games.
posted by Fupped Duck at 12:24 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


I’ve become convinced that the current crop of republicans actually worship Mammon and Moloch. Mammon being the demon of greed, and Moloch the demon supposedly worshipped in Carthage that required child sacrifices.

It makes a certain demented sense.
posted by mephron at 4:27 AM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]


Several years ago, the Archdruid Report did an article about the religious activities of Republicans, in which he points out what religion does line up with current Republican values:

My go-to on that score is Brad Hicks' "Christians in the Hands of an Angry God".
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:47 AM on March 30, 2018 [3 favorites]


There was also an article posted on the Blue a while back about how, while religious affiliation is up among whites, actual church attendance is significantly down, and noting how regular church-goers are much more tolerant and moderate than their religious, non-church-going peers. I have to wonder how many of the hardcore Christian Republicans in office actually bother to go to church unless they know someone's going to be watching.
posted by SansPoint at 1:39 PM on March 30, 2018 [7 favorites]


People keep trying to use that sort of argument to strip Unitarian-Universalists of their religious status, but so far they've not succeeded.

Oh, unless you're talking specifically about tax exemption in the US, I wouldn't say it's people coming from the outside trying to strip that status away, so much as people from the inside trying to discard it.

My local Unitarian congregation, for example — the birthplace of feminism! — has recently been using wording to the effect of being a "non-religious church." I personally think that's terrrrrrrrible branding, given that the "church" part is every bit as off-putting to me as the "religion" part, but you can't deny that this is an aspect of the way they want to be seen.

They're sweet, sincere folks, but it's true that their get-togethers are not as much fun as the ones the OTO lodge throws.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:19 AM on March 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


Stormfront founder and former Klansman Don Black announced on Tuesday that the white supremacist movement’s first major hate forum is temporarily restricting access to “sustaining members” — users who donate at least five dollars a month — and will be archiving and shuttering its main server on April 6 due to a “financial crisis.” SPLC
posted by The Whelk at 11:34 PM on April 4, 2018 [4 favorites]


Leaked chat logs show TWP was building explosives to use against antifascist groups before the organization collapsed

They say directly the pressure of antifascist groups made them afraid to demonstrate
posted by The Whelk at 1:45 PM on April 6, 2018 [5 favorites]


Frankly those dudes are dumb enough they're fortunate nobody burned to death or lost a hand.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:36 PM on April 6, 2018 [2 favorites]


They say directly the pressure of antifascist groups made them afraid to demonstrate

We stopped it in time for one simple reason and I told you that! The system works, goddamn it! The system works!

those dudes are dumb enough they're fortunate nobody burned to death or lost a hand

Naturally it would totally have been all antifa's fault if that had happened.
posted by flabdablet at 3:12 AM on April 7, 2018 [2 favorites]


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