My editors did me no favors by choosing to publish this
April 3, 2018 9:57 AM Subscribe

Point: I am tired of being a Jewish man’s rebellion

Counterpoint: How Dare Jewish Men Keep Breaking Up With Me

Twitter of course was also having none of it.

posted by griphus (214 comments total) 18 users marked this as a favorite

"so sad this antisemitic lady's relationships with jews didnt work out! must be the jews' fault - back to the shtetl everyone, we tried!"

Someone get this lady some whitefish salad for that burn.

On second thought, maybe just some mayo.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:06 AM on April 3, 2018 [9 favorites]

I feel like there could have been a thoughtful essay about what it is like to be an outsider dating into a culture which is not yours, which causes interfaith tensions in your relationships, especially when dating into religions that determine the religion of the children by either the status of the mother or (for certain religions) the marital status of the parents.

That is definitely not this article, however.
posted by corb at 10:09 AM on April 3, 2018 [39 favorites]

I have a secular Jewish wife with practicing in-laws. In practical terms we have Passover instead of Easter, Hannukah instead of Christmas, Mitvahs instead of Confirmations/Christening, and family dinner is Friday night instead of Sunday.

She really just needs to get her shit together. Like if you can't cope with not-interacting with your in-laws your going to have a bad time no matter what religion you marry into.
posted by Talez at 10:09 AM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

Why are white Americans so proud of their ability to mix a "good Martini?" I too can mix liquids together!
posted by selfnoise at 10:11 AM on April 3, 2018 [57 favorites]

I find myself uncharitably wondering if her definition of "mixing a martini" is the Hemingwayesque nonsense about "wave a bottle of vermouth near the glass, then fill with chilled vodka".
posted by Lexica at 10:13 AM on April 3, 2018 [14 favorites]

Why are white Americans so proud of their ability to mix a "good Martini?" I too can mix liquids together!

WASPs have so little left, just give them that. Otherwise they'll be bragging about their ability to pair cheddar with saltines and regaling you with how important their dead ancestors were.

Next thing you know they'll get out that family history that their second cousin wrote and instead of going to the beach, you'll be stuck inside that un-air-conditioned shingled house on the Cape for the next 2 hours feigning interest.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:15 AM on April 3, 2018 [67 favorites]

I’m Tired of Being Dermot Mulroney’s Onscreen Love Interest
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:15 AM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

I find myself uncharitably wondering if her definition of "mixing a martini" is the Hemingwayesque nonsense about "wave a bottle of vermouth near the glass, then fill with chilled vodka".

Something something clear alcohol is for rich women on diets.
posted by Talez at 10:15 AM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]

Forward had a good response:

Is the essay anti-Semitic? Yes. Is the writer? I don’t know. Is the editor? Also unclear — but the editor did choose to publish the piece. While the internet drags the freelance writer, per our 21st century customs, there was at least one editor, if not more, who approved this piece, who published it, who put it out into the world. Why? A yen for hate clicks? An inability to see all the logical flaws and anti-Semitism in it and respond to the writer with some constructive feedback?

Also, twitter pointed out this freelancer has a history with dating-woes essays mentioning Carrie Bradshaw -- earlier it was Hamilton fans.
posted by rewil at 10:16 AM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

Also, one of her Jewish exes is in fact not currently dating a Jew.
posted by jeather at 10:17 AM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

And some other twitter responses I liked.
posted by jeather at 10:20 AM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

As the child of such a relationship, fucking decades ago, this essay just confused the hell out of me. There are a bunch of stats cited in the piece that suggest that it actually commonly works out just fine.

Yeah, our Reform congregation is like 50% interfaith, and that doesn't include the women* who converted. Of course, realistically, our congregation is probably also at least 25% atheists with kids.

*it's almost always women who convert. I guess men don't really have to, because if your wife is Jewish the kids get unleavened by default.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:22 AM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]

hopefully while sipping the cocktail I’m determined to create, named “A Jewish Man’s Rebellion.” I’d like it to feature a bourbon base and be garnished with a slice of bacon.

Jesus fuck what a goddamn mess
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:24 AM on April 3, 2018 [38 favorites]

bourbon base and be garnished with a slice of bacon

I've had this in a version that also included maple syrup if I recall. I do not recommend it.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:26 AM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

Also, twitter pointed out this freelancer has a history with dating-woes essays mentioning Carrie Bradshaw -- earlier it was Hamilton fans.

Wait, is that code for black? I'm not up on my low-key white girl dog whistles.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:27 AM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]

rewil, I saw that essay and thought it was particularly kind. Anti-Semitism is on the rise in this country, and although the writer should be ashamed of herself in putting out such an essay under these circumstances, she is not the only one who is responsible for its appearance.

I cannot fathom getting into the personal-romantic-essay game. What was the point of this? A couple hundred dollars, a lifetime of hateclicks, and a bunch of new friends with 14 and 88 in their usernames? Her twitter bio says she's "fighting the patriarchy while keeping my hair shiny and fitting into my skinny jeans." Exactly how has this helped with any of that?
posted by Countess Elena at 10:30 AM on April 3, 2018 [15 favorites]

Exactly how has this helped with any of that?

Epinephrine is a really effective appetite suppressant?
posted by Talez at 10:32 AM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]

It's the strangest thing, I'm a Jewish man engaged to marry a non-Jewish woman. Her parents were at my family Seder this past weekend. It was delightful. Also I previously dated a a not-very-practicing-but-very-guilty Catholic woman who broke up with me more or less because I didn't share her religious background.

Do I get to write an essay? What is it even about? "Hi, I am a young person in modern America, idk religion is weird some times, please pass the green beans."
posted by Tomorrowful at 10:37 AM on April 3, 2018 [43 favorites]

Do I get to write an essay?

Oh, totes. But if you've got an editor with the slightest glimmer of self-awareness or basic human empathy, they'll never let you publish it.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:41 AM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

"Why are white Americans so proud of their ability to mix a "good Martini?" I too can mix liquids together!"

No clue. Especially Martinis. Wow, you managed to pour cold vodka into a shitty cup, so impressive. Oh wow, and you made it slightly bitter and salty. That's definitely better than drinking something that tastes good instead.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:44 AM on April 3, 2018 [17 favorites]

There was a lot of antisemitic shit of this past weekend, and I was like, well, Happy Passover, and then I was like, well, this is traditionally the time of year that non-Jews are terrible to Jews.

And, hey, today is both #punishamuslimday on Twitter and there us a hashtag called #christianprivilege which is entirely right wing evangelical Christians complaining that they are the most oppressed people on earth today, so this is going to be a banner week I can just tell.
posted by maxsparber at 10:48 AM on April 3, 2018 [42 favorites]

you managed to pour cold vodka into a shitty cup,

That is not a martini.
posted by maxsparber at 10:48 AM on April 3, 2018 [70 favorites]

Well, compromise hasn't been seen in Washington since the days of Tip O'Neill, so I assume that this new way of living, marriage and dating has now moved out, like a stubborn virus, into the population of our country, making us even more inflexible than before.
Splash some Maggi on those green beans.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:49 AM on April 3, 2018

Next thing you know they'll get out that family history that their second cousin wrote and instead of going to the beach, you'll be stuck inside that un-air-conditioned shingled house on the Cape for the next 2 hours feigning interest.

My wife, a lapsed Catholic from Duluth who has many many cousins and aunts and uncles all with family stories that run the gamut of American Family Stories like on TV, once asked a couple of my older aunts (both Soviet immigrants from different sides of the family) about my family history and it got extremely Annie Hall there and then when my aunts started with "okay I guess we'll start with the shtetl pogroms, move on to the Nazis and the Siege, and then there was Stalin."
posted by griphus at 10:50 AM on April 3, 2018 [45 favorites]

What's really problematic to me about this essay is as follows:

1. She barely distinguishes between her two Jewish boyfriends -- they might as well be one person. Not a good sign for someone who wants to claim that she isn't racist, to put it bluntly.

2. She's extremely vague about how or why religion seemed to become sufficiently important as to contribute to break-ups in both relationships, and yet this is ostensibly the thrust of the whole piece.

3. All of her very polite hemming and hawing and qualifying and explaining what a good person she is thus becomes the bulk of the article, and so we end up with a vaguely-to-openly racist...thing, which cannot really be defended even on its own terms.

Get over yourself, you silly shiksa. Your Jewish boyfriends (if they were even real, which frankly I doubt) probably noticed that you're kinda racist, and that's why religion became an issue that they "couldn't explain" in those failed relationships. Maybe they went on to marry Jewish women because they never wanted to feel so uncomfortable again!
posted by clockzero at 10:55 AM on April 3, 2018 [19 favorites]

You guys seem fixated on the "good" martini part, and not on the "strong" martini part that she is so proud of. Is there a way to make a weak martini?
posted by queensissy at 10:56 AM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]

I think you're all overlooking the good news, which is that Jews definitely won't be asking her out on dates anymore, so ... essay mission accomplished?

I'm really stuck on how someone who brags about being polite and thinking manners matter could publish something this horrifying. And WHY. Just, WHY? Like ... what is the goal?

And I 100% think her editor hates her, there is no other reason to publish this nonsense.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:01 AM on April 3, 2018 [21 favorites]

Is there a way to make a weak martini?

No, it's all alcohol. You can make it stronger with navy strength gin, but the only way it gets weaker is with too much ice and too much shaking or by, I don't know, dissolving olives in it.
posted by maxsparber at 11:02 AM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

This is making the rounds in a particular friend circle of mine on Facebook becuase the writer of the original essay may be Known Unto One Of Us. (The rest of us are trying to get them to dish.)

I realized during that discussion that I'm like the bizarro-world version of this person; I can pass for WASP easily (I look it, and my IRL name is pretty WASPy), and I also had an interfaith relationship with a Jewish guy in my 20s. But - I didn't see it as "I'm dating a Jewish guy, scancalous!" I saw it as "I'm dating this awesome dude" and he saw it as "I'm dating this awesome babe". And thanks to him being the hero on what was an unexpectedly dramatic second date, my non-Jewish parents ended up loving the guy so much that they may have still been secretly hoping he would propose to me ten years after we broke up.

(He asked me once out of the blue, three months into our relationship, "so - your mother is kind of devout Catholic, does she have a problem with the fact that I'm Jewish?" I just stared at him and asked "....do you remember what you did on our second date?....I think as long as you don't shoot our dog, you're golden.")
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:02 AM on April 3, 2018 [12 favorites]

It’s an Internet Hat Trick: the author shouldn’t have written it, the editor shouldn’t have approved it and I shouldn’t have read it.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:03 AM on April 3, 2018 [119 favorites]

I was raised Jewish. My wife was raised Christian. Neither of us is religious now. We go to her parents' house on Christmas and to my mother's house on Passover. So it goes.

And martinis don't contain vodka. Period.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:04 AM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

Is there a way to make a weak martini?

Yes, several, actually: go too heavy on the vermouth, try to make it 'dirty' and instead introduce too much brine, or overshake/improperly shake so the drink is diluted with melting ice. This last one is why some people insist on having them stirred, not shaken, though advocates of shaking say it better disburses the vermouth. Possibly Fleming had 007 order his famous drinks that way as a bit of in-character flavour, keeping Bond (slightly) more sober by watering his drinks down, along the lines of an original Gibson. Or possibly Fleming just thought it sounded better.
posted by halation at 11:04 AM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]

I finished reading this essay and immediately went over to WaPo and canceled my subscription. It is beyond appalling that they chose to publish this straight-up anti-Semitic shit right at this point in history. I took the $120 and gave it all to The Guardian instead.
posted by holborne at 11:04 AM on April 3, 2018 [28 favorites]

That is not a martini.

Right. A martini is when you pour gin into a glass.
posted by atoxyl at 11:07 AM on April 3, 2018 [20 favorites]

Holborne: I'm assuming you told them the exact reason why you were cancelling, too. (and secretly hoping that you share the exact wording becuase it must have been delicious....)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:07 AM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

Yep! Thus:

I am canceling my subscription effective immediately because of the following piece in the WaPo today:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2018/03/29/i-am-tired-of-being-a-jewish-mans-rebellion/?utm_term=.371e9f63f171

Words truly fail me. That you would run this piece now, when anti-semitism and openly anti-semitic incidents are rising sharply, at a point in history when people marched through the streets of Charlottesville chanting "Blood and Soil," is beyond appalling. I was
proud of supporting the WaPo until today. Never again. This piece is a disgrace to the WaPo's legacy, and the entire editorial chain should hang their heads in shame.
posted by holborne at 11:12 AM on April 3, 2018 [54 favorites]

LISTEN i love this moronic woman's life failures so much that i am going to catfish her with a photo of rebbe schneerson
posted by poffin boffin at 11:15 AM on April 3, 2018 [51 favorites]

Something something clear alcohol is for rich women on diets.

Darling, you can never be too rich or too drunk.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:16 AM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

1. She barely distinguishes between her two Jewish boyfriends -- they might as well be one person. Not a good sign for someone who wants to claim that she isn't racist, to put it bluntly.

Hey now, I'm sure she fails to distinguish between all of her romantic partners, because they likely only exist in relation to her.

It's not that she's a racist; it's that she's a self-absorbed asshole.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:16 AM on April 3, 2018 [11 favorites]

It's not that she's a racist; it's that she's a self-absorbed asshole.
posted by leotrotsky at 2:16 PM on April 3

Why not both?
posted by magstheaxe at 11:19 AM on April 3, 2018 [20 favorites]

It's not that she's a racist; it's that she's a self-absorbed asshole.

?פארוואס ניט ביידע
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:20 AM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

It's not that she's a racist; it's that she's a self-absorbed asshole.

I mean, the line between the two is so thin it could be used to hold up the solar arrays between the sun and Ringword.
posted by maxsparber at 11:20 AM on April 3, 2018 [27 favorites]

Holy crap I did not think I was ever going to be able to make a Ringworld joke again but I freaking nailed it.
posted by maxsparber at 11:20 AM on April 3, 2018 [73 favorites]

i am going to catfish her with a photo of rebbe schneerson

how is there no emoji for a single crisp dollar bill
posted by griphus at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

Words truly fail me. That you would run this piece now, when anti-semitism and openly anti-semitic incidents are rising sharply, at a point in history when people marched through the streets of Charlottesville chanting "Blood and Soil," is beyond appalling. I was proud of supporting the WaPo until today. Never again. This piece is a disgrace to the WaPo's legacy, and the entire editorial chain should hang their heads in shame.

I mean, I doubt that they consulted the whole editorial board before publishing this. I suspect this was the work of one dumb-ass editor in the style section who legit didn't see the big deal. That makes them a blinkered moron, not the enemy.

The Perfect is the Enemy of the Good. WaPo isn't perfect, but right now they're doing a hell of a lot more good than most other organizations. And that includes The Atlantic with their hiring of misogynists, the NYT with their NPR-esque two-sides-isms and keen-ness to soft focus profile fascists like Bannon and Hannity, and, of course the Normalizers of Pathetic Racism at NPR.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:23 AM on April 3, 2018 [26 favorites]

i am going to catfish her with a photo of rebbe schneerson

I mean, I suspect deep down she believes that she deserves no less than the Messiah.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:24 AM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

for reals though if you, a white hetero christian, approach dating outside your comically narrow life sphere as "let's cautiously take a crack at this whole INTERFAITH DATING* thing" in the first place, instead of just dating human persons you find attractive, then you are already Doing It Wrong.

*also applies to the dread spectre of (gasp) interracial dating!
posted by poffin boffin at 11:24 AM on April 3, 2018 [29 favorites]

i'm so annoyed that i'm eating chametz
posted by poffin boffin at 11:25 AM on April 3, 2018 [20 favorites]

2. She's extremely vague about how or why religion seemed to become sufficiently important as to contribute to break-ups in both relationships, and yet this is ostensibly the thrust of the whole piece.

Something that stood out for me was how she initially described herself as only slightly Christian, but later included references to church friends and couples she saw at church. I'm guessing she's not going to sign up to join a convent anytime soon, but regular attendance and sustained contact with a church-focused social group are decent signs that her faith is a lot more serious to her than she wants to let on, and (I know this is a huge shock) her side of the religious difference might have contributed to the breakups as much or more than the by all accounts secular Jewish men she was dating.
posted by Copronymus at 11:26 AM on April 3, 2018 [36 favorites]

I've dated, unsuccessfully, 3 different programmers. Wonder if I can squeeze a pay check out of that?

I bet the author didn't actually get paid much, because newspapers do not pay much for essays, they really don't. So she shat all over her own reputation as a thinking human being (assuming she had one to start with) for not much pay so it must have been an ego thing. I will rise above the temptation to be exactly like the author and decide that all WASPs are suspect.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:26 AM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

i'm so annoyed that i'm eating chametz

Come on... like we weren't all doing that already.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:27 AM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

first of all how dare you, those cupcakes were left by crazed intruders
posted by poffin boffin at 11:28 AM on April 3, 2018 [34 favorites]

I've dated, unsuccessfully, 3 different programmers. Wonder if I can squeeze a pay check out of that?

I can completely visualize this annoying thinkpiece!
posted by selfnoise at 11:32 AM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]

"I'm not a problem to be solved!" The Perils of Dating Programmers.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:34 AM on April 3, 2018 [67 favorites]

The editor, Lisa Bonos, has been doubling down on being dumb over on twitter, but don't worry, she's a jewish woman in an interfaith marriage (another thing she keeps bringing up).
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 11:47 AM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

Are martinis treyf now? I haven't been keeping up.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:51 AM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

So she’s just a moron, then?
posted by schadenfrau at 11:51 AM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

she's a jewish woman in an interfaith marriage (another thing she keeps bringing up).

So not only are Jewish girls stealing all the Jewish boyfriends, they're taking the all the shegetz, too?
posted by leotrotsky at 11:52 AM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

I'm a WASP and I hate martinis. The shape of the glass is clearly the product of Design Thinking.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:53 AM on April 3, 2018 [11 favorites]

It's honestly a little incredible that the piece is so antisemitic and narcissistic that we don't even really have the space to discuss just how poorly it's written - because it is super poorly written. So if Lisa Bonos didn't expect the reaction, then why the hell print it? The only limited "value" it could possibly have is hanging a (bad) writer out to dry for clickbait. I suspect she's lying about not realizing the coming reaction, but if we take her at her word, she's bad at her job and too dumb to do it.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 11:54 AM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]

Right. A martini is when you pour gin into a glass.

My historical research suggests that the martini was invented around 1912 to address a shortage of variations on this joke.
posted by atoxyl at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]

Are martinis treyf now? I haven't been keeping up.

Only when they're garnished with bacon, I guess?
posted by holborne at 12:01 PM on April 3, 2018

I sat next to a Nice Jewish Girl at a brunch years ago and she had just published this potentially useful guide: What to Do When You're Dating a Jew. Not that it would have made the article any better...
posted by PhineasGage at 12:01 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

She really buried the lede with the passage where she got angry her boy's mother called her to ask about his location. That's why he broke up with her.

My mother is dead, but I do have a daughter. I'm about to get married (second time's the charm!) and I believe that dude likely had the same reaction to the writer as I would have had if my fiancee had told me "we need to limit the time lil' Sideshow spends at our home" when we started dating.
posted by sideshow at 12:07 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

I'm Tired of Shipping Two Same-Sex Trek Characters Together, Only To Have Them Railroaded Into Het Relationships
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:12 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

Why are white Americans so proud of their ability to mix a "good Martini?" I too can mix liquids together!

Tangent time. I grew up in a devilishly Puritan seewhatididthere family and never had anything stronger than wine before running off to France. My still-family-not-quite-in-law-today-in-spite-of-breaking-up-with-their-son-fourteen-years-ago, which was then just my family-not-quite-in-law, offered a Martini before dinner. I perked up: "oh yes that would be lovely! I've always wondered what a Martini is!"

*father-not-quite-in-law grabs a bottle of Martini*
*pours Martini into a glass*
me, wide-eyed: "IT'S VERMOUTH!!! MARTINI IS VERMOUTH!!! Omigosh it's soooo Hemingway!!" *sips vermouth delicately*
*family-not-quite-in-law looks on with quaint amusement*

as a result I did not realize that what Americans – and I'm American – call a Martini is not in fact Martini the vermouth, until some fifteen years later. Which is to say, roundabout age thirty-five.
posted by fraula at 12:12 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

fraula,

It was doubly confusing for me that the French* legit do refer to drinking vermouth as drinking Martini. They even have the red Martini! No one drinks that here!

*at least the French girls who invited me back to their dorm rooms for drinks in grad school did. Served it room temperature, too. Vermouth does better slightly chilled, I think.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:18 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

I suspect she's lying about not realizing the coming reaction, but if we take her at her word, she's bad at her job and too dumb to do it.

Hanlon's Razor strikes again.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:24 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

They even have the red Martini! No one drinks that here!

Whoa, where do you think your Mans-hattan come from? Your Robs Roy?
posted by uncleozzy at 12:24 PM on April 3, 2018 [17 favorites]

as a result I did not realize that what Americans – and I'm American – call a Martini is not in fact Martini the vermouth, until some fifteen years later. Which is to say, roundabout age thirty-five.

I swear this sets off some book I read, where someone is horrified by a young woman ordering a martini because they are against cocktails and is relieved when it's just vermouth. I wonder what book it was.
posted by jeather at 12:26 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

I too can mix liquids together!

There is a definite spectrum of technique and competence in their preparation, if you care for the actual drink as intended rather than a "dry" glass of alcohol water. That is to say a non-zero ratio of gin (which gin?) with vermouth (which?), shaken (how and for how long?) with ice, strained (single or double, should the drink be frosted with a kiss of ice or clear?), then garnished (with a twist of lemon, expressed, possibly flamed, or with olives, possibly stuffed, and with what). So there are aesthetic choices to be made which do alter the taste and that experience of the first sip. And we haven't even discussed Gibsons, Vespers or dirty versions yet.
posted by bonehead at 12:27 PM on April 3, 2018 [9 favorites]

I'm a WASP and I hate martinis. The shape of the glass is clearly the product of Design Thinking.

I always get my gin served Up and in a rocks glass. A martini glass is less a glass and more a performance piece. It's the bow tie of glasses.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:28 PM on April 3, 2018 [13 favorites]

They even have the red Martini! No one drinks that here!

Whoa, where do you think your Mans-hattan come from? Your Robs Roy?

I didn't realize that Zombie William Safire was Mefi's Own!
posted by leotrotsky at 12:30 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

So there are aesthetic choices to be made which do alter the taste and that experience of the first sip. And we haven't even discussed Gibsons, Vespers or dirty versions yet.

Well hello there... I'm a Jewish man looking to rebel, if you know what I mean.
posted by Behemoth at 12:31 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

Maybe they dumped her because she was an anti-semite.
posted by Toddles at 12:31 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]

Is there a way for the writer to come back from this essay? I can't imagine what that might be.

When I read the title I thought it was going to be a Jewish woman complaining about dating guys that turn out to be wannabe bad boys. *shakes head*

If she hadn't claimed to know Jewishness better than Jewish people...and then to be so clueless and self-regarding...well, that and the racism...it reminds me of the current Mrs. Mnuchin's gap-year screed about the angel-haired mzungu ie her fine self.
posted by glasseyes at 12:33 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]

aesthetic choices to be made

I tell you what, I was a serious, active, alcoholic, like I used to drink a fifth of Jamerson in a night, and I was shocked at how powerful martinis were, when I tried some at a white people bar down there in San Francisco. I'm not saying there's no aesthetics to getting shitfaced drunk, but you can't tell me that's not the main purpose of the invention.
posted by thelonius at 12:33 PM on April 3, 2018 [12 favorites]

I always get my gin served Up and in a rocks glass.

Are you trolling the WASPs now
posted by schadenfrau at 12:33 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

WaPo isn't perfect, but right now they're doing a hell of a lot more good than most other organizations.

Yes they are.

And yet as a Jew, I'll be damned if I look the other way when they print anti-Semitic bullshit like this and allow the editor who approved it for publication to defend it on Twitter. When you print anti-Semitic screeds in a newspaper and then own what you have done, that does not make you a "blinkered moron." It makes you the enemy.

So fuck them and their paper. I cancelled my subscription and told them why. We do not need more antisemites being given a public voice in this country. The New York Times has done enough of that since Trump was elected to fulfill several lifetimes worth of "good faith."
posted by zarq at 12:33 PM on April 3, 2018 [38 favorites]

> poffin boffin:
"i'm so annoyed that i'm eating chametz"

My last few dinners have involved ramen, quesadillas, and rice with curry and beans. Chametz and kitniyot, get in my belly.

I'm all about Talia Lavin's snarky parody in The Forward and Joe Bernstein's misunderstood album of jazz standards played on shofar. I was not at all on board with the "fuck you, anti-semitic bitch" type comments I saw on Twitter. No good can come from a frenzy of reactive outrage targeted at a freelance theater journalist. It's totally unproductive. I, personally, feel embarrassed by how many people took part in it.

Purcell's piece was bad and she should feel bad, but, man, that editor really should have said "this belongs in your personal diary and therapy sessions—not a major national newspaper."
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 12:35 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]

> I've dated, unsuccessfully, 3 different programmers. Wonder if I can squeeze a pay check out of that?

Ooh, I too have a thinkpiece! I dated several rock musicians who were in bands that had a brief run at success that did not ultimately turn into significant momentum, but they have gone on to enjoy playing music locally without aspirations of making it a full-time vocation.
posted by desuetude at 12:38 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]

I always thought of the martini glass as a component in a kind of homeostatic system—martini, glass, and drinker. As the drinker's inebriation increases, the glass becomes less manageable, keeping the system in balance. Put a martini in a rocks glass, well, all bets are off.
posted by enn at 12:39 PM on April 3, 2018 [13 favorites]

I was not at all on board with the "fuck you, anti-semitic bitch" type comments I saw on Twitter.

In any large group or forum, the most extreme reactions tend to drown out the rest.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:39 PM on April 3, 2018

When you print anti-Semitic screeds in a newspaper and then own what you have done, that does not make you a "blinkered moron." It makes you the enemy.

Are you seriously calling the Jewish editor of the piece an anti-semite, now?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2018

if you, a white hetero christian, approach dating outside your comically narrow life sphere as "let's cautiously take a crack at this whole INTERFAITH DATING* thing" in the first place, instead of just dating human persons you find attractive, then you are already Doing It Wrong.

If this person* had just avoided dating, nay, human contact, entirely, then we'd all be better off.

*like many people
posted by octobersurprise at 12:42 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

> leotrotsky:
"In any large group or forum, the most extreme reactions tend to drown out the rest."

It's not just that they were the most extreme. They were also really common.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 12:43 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

The writer, Carey Purcell, has posted an apology on her site. I am pasting it here in full for anyone who doesn't want to click over.

An Apology

Regarding my piece for the Washington Post on interfaith relationships: I am truly sorry I offended so many. It was never my intention to disrespect the Jewish faith or anyone who engages in Jewish customs, traditions or religious beliefs, and my editor and I spoke about that at length while putting the piece together. I realize now that I touched upon serious issues for Jewish people in America and worldwide, for which I sincerely apologize.

I think compassion and empathy are more important than ever in today’s world. This has been an eye-opening experience for me, and I will continue to work to educate myself further to be supportive and respectful of all people. I again offer a heartfelt apology.

Some have asked why I didn’t respond to the comments and Tweets and emails more quickly. I wanted to really think about what was being said. There was a lot to process and I want and need to honestly acknowledge the harm that had been done. Please know that I read your comments and I have and will continue to listen to them.

posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:43 PM on April 3, 2018 [20 favorites]

I want to go have a drink with bonehead now please
posted by glasseyes at 12:45 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

Hmm I dunno. I think the sort of antisemitism on display in Purcell’s piece is exactly the sort of vaguely plausibly deniable bigotry that needs to get called out loudly, and with vigor. I have no doubt that Purcell was completely unaware of her antisemitism, and that it probably bled into each of those relationships in complicated ways (yeah no SHIT you weren’t invited to seder). Like I highly doubt this is the first time she’s thought, written, or said anything problematic. Any time a white person feels “cultural differences” between them and their ethnic/racial/religious minority SO/friend/person are causing problems in their relationship, it’s worth wondering whether the problem is, in fact...what do you call it? White blindness? Like that specifically ignorant part of unaware prejudice? But clearly that did not happen.

Maybe now it will. And maybe anyone who read the original essay and didn’t have much of a reaction will see the twitterstorm and go “oh shit, did I fuck up?”
posted by schadenfrau at 12:45 PM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]

look martinis are gross and i can't stay silent on this important issue any longer
posted by poffin boffin at 12:57 PM on April 3, 2018 [12 favorites]

From the apology:
... and my editor and I spoke about that at length while putting the piece together.

I cannot comprehend how the outcome of those conversations could be anything other than "What you're writing is plainly offensive, and I won't publish it."
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 12:57 PM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]

Loudly and with vigor? Sure. Talia Lavin, Helen Rosner, and Sophie-Ellman Golan did that, among others.

Lazily and 90% swears? Why bother?

E. Tammy Kim wrote a more worthwhile piece about being a Korean-American in a relationship with a Jewish man for Tablet.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 1:00 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]

Sounds like the author is getting the message. That is a fine thing. I have a question for the crowd.

Treif (טרײף) — also trayf, treyf, or tref — is the Yiddish word for any form of non-kosher food. The word is derived from the Hebrew טְרֵפָה‬ (terēfáh), but should not be confused with that other, more specific and technical term.[1]

So I am learning a few new words today. Alas, I find the wikipedia entry above confusing because what is the other, more specific and technical term? (The footnote leads to something that no longer exists.)
posted by Bella Donna at 1:00 PM on April 3, 2018

and my editor and I spoke about that at length while putting the piece together

This line pretty much confirms that she and her editor do in fact hate each other's guts, right?
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:02 PM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]

under_petticoat_rule, by her editor's telling it's because the editor encouraged her along in those conversations. The editor claims they had no idea it'd go like this, but if Purcell's telling is true, Lisa Bonos is looking worse and worse.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:02 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

> Bella Donna:
"what is the other, more specific and technical term? (The footnote leads to something that no longer exists.)"

Wikipedia links to that page's archive.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 1:06 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

Quick Treif explainer. Basically, 'treifah' (the 'more specific term') refers specifically to meat that is not kosher due to the state of the animal when it died or was slaughtered. 'Treif' extends past meat to encompass other things that are not kosher, whether fundamentally (like bacon or lobster) or due to interactions (like a cheeseburger, which could be made from kosher meat but becomes un-kosher if cheese is added) or due to improper prep (like food prepared with non-kosher implements.)
posted by halation at 1:07 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

Thanks, cichlid ceilidh! It's late here and I thought I had checked both links.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:07 PM on April 3, 2018

Several comments deleted; folks if you're not Jewish I'm gonna suggest that you not make jokes with Jewish terms that are new to you in here, and aaaaaalso that you not pitch in here about why people shouldn't get upset about antisemitism. corb please skip this thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:33 PM on April 3, 2018 [23 favorites]

Are you seriously calling the Jewish editor of the piece an anti-semite, now?

Is your reading comprehension that astonishingly bad or are you seriously just responding to what you think I said, rather than what I actually said.
posted by zarq at 1:34 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

Are you seriously calling the Jewish editor of the piece an anti-semite, now?

Are you seriously suggesting that Jews can't be anti-Semitic? Because boy howdy have I got some people to introduce you to.
posted by The Bellman at 1:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [14 favorites]

for reals though if you, a white hetero christian, approach dating outside your comically narrow life sphere as "let's cautiously take a crack at this whole INTERFAITH DATING* thing"

Interfaith dating can be genuinely challenging. As an atheist, I couldn't date a serious Christian--not because I find all Christian beliefs inherently repugnant, but because his highest priority would be...serving a God in whom I don't believe, a God who will shape his goals in life and who will demand sacrifices. This is not my imagination; I grew up in a pious household and I know the mindset. (My parents moved to a different city and took up a major charitable commitment because they thought God wanted them to. ) It's not possible to successfully build a permanent and equitable household out of two people with such very different priorities. And that would be true vice versa, I think. If you take your religion seriously as a religion--setting aside the cultural practices and beliefs entwined with it--it's going to affect your values, in ways that may well turn out not to be compatible with other worldviews. (Obviously this depends on the religions in question, but I can't say those incompatibilities never exist. A proslyetizing monotheism ranks low on the compatibility scale.)

This here is not a thoughtful article about the challenges of interfaith dating, though!
posted by praemunire at 1:49 PM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]

E. Tammy Kim wrote a more worthwhile piece about being a Korean-American in a relationship with a Jewish man for Tablet.

Quoth she: "New York City’s least remarkable interracial couple is the Asian American woman/Jewish man. In middle-class, over-educated enclaves of Manhattan and Brooklyn, it’s an inescapable pair." ZOMG TRUER WORDS NEVER SPOKEN, and there is little in life more awkward than being one of three or even four couples at a gathering partnered along such lines. If you ever want to feel like even your own most intimate choices are less that, and more some act of mimesis/inchoate stirring of the zeitgeist, boy howdy sitting down to dinner with a group like that'll do it.

(Hebe here, BTW — seventeen years and counting with an incredible Korean woman, and evidence that it can work out OK and more than OK. Both our families have been straight-up awesome, but then we're both atheists.)

As far as this piece goes? Hoo boy.
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:50 PM on April 3, 2018 [12 favorites]

> adamgreenfield:
"Both our families have been straight-up awesome, but then we're both atheists."

As David Klion wrote on Twitter:

I will say, re dating as a Jewish guy, that whether you’re dating a Jew or a gentile is less important than whether you broadly share the same political outlook and degree of religiosity.

In the ridiculous op-ed, one of her problems is that she’s more religious than the guys are

posted by cichlid ceilidh at 1:58 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

I'm a Jew - and I totally get her. Maybe it's because I'm a Jew-by-choice (aka a convert), but I've found the xeno-phobia in the Jewish community regarding interfaith relationships to be deeply disturbing.

My synagogue prides itself on being inclusive -- for everyone but interfaith couples. My rabbi once suggested that we couldn't invite non-Jews to a young adults board game night, because what if one of the Jews met a non-Jew and they started dating? How would she explain it to their parents? (which of course, assumes that the young adults were looking to date - they weren't, because they're mostly coupled and there aren't many of them, which is why we were looking at inviting non-Jews to fill out the numbers).

I totally understand when someone feels strongly about their religion and want someone who will engage in it with them. But it feels so - frankly, prejudiced - when people seem worried about whether a woman has a Jewish womb (for the making of Jewish babies) when they don't practice the religion. It would have been like me insisting on marrying someone who was baptised, though I haven't been Christian since I was 12.

I have a lot of nerdy Jewish friends - and also queer Jewish friends. Dating for nerds and/or queer people is already like searching for a tiny piece of glass on the beach. I encourage them to keep an open mind - and look for someone they can love and who loves them. If their religion is important to them, look for someone who is open to it. But don't write someone off because they don't have a bubbie or couldn't make matzah balls even with a mix (I still can't - and my hebrew is terrible. But at least I fast on Yom Kippur).
posted by jb at 2:04 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

well, this is traditionally the time of year that non-Jews are terrible to Jews.

It’s like the original Good Friday tradition.

In addition to everything else, I’m unclear about why the author basically describes herself as the boorish fiancé from auntie Mame.
posted by bq at 2:09 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

also: if the Jewish world is actually worried about Jewish continuity, it would

a) treat converts better

b) welcome and embrace interfaith families, regardless of conversion status.

When kids of mixed marriages chose how they will identify, will they chose a community that doesn't welcome them and both of their parents?

Things are getting better - and it's reflected in the statistics. A majority of current young adults with one Jewish parent identify as Jewish.

But there are still problems - like the nice orthodox man from "Jews for Judaism" who proceeded to call me a ger. Um, yeah, no.
posted by jb at 2:10 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

jb, I think you'd like the Tablet piece I linked above. Also, a comic strip for you: http://www.elivalley.com/political-comics/#/comics/disaster-in-the-depths/
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 2:15 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

My synagogue prides itself on being inclusive -- for everyone but interfaith couples.

Might be time to find a new synagogue. The one I grew up is somewhere between half and seventy percent interfaith couples.

Different branches of Judaism have different sensibilities regarding interfaith relationships. Reform and Orthodox are generally disapproving, and won't perform marriages, and, you know something? It's their propagative.

Judaism is a bounded religion and ethnicity. Within groups for whom children of certain interfaith couples are not considered Jewish, the synagogues have every right not to be accepting of it. Other movements are more accepting. Pick the one you're comfortable with and who are comfortable with you.
posted by maxsparber at 2:15 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]

Reform are disapproving? Did you mean Conservative?
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 2:18 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

Reform and Orthodox

Did you mean Conservative and Orthodox? I've never heard of a Reform congregation disapproving of interfaith marriages.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:19 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

I did mean conservative. I was in the process of repairing that, but I'll fix it here.

There was just a big shakeup in the conservative leadership, and a lot of their rabbis want to perform interfaith marriages, so that movement may shift soon as well.
posted by maxsparber at 2:19 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

maxsparber: just like I disapprove of xenophobia elsewhere in the world, I'll disapprove of it within my own community. (Just as I would ablism, homophobia or transphobia)

And what I said is that I understand the frustration of the original author. Frankly, these men should not have dated her if they weren't interested in marrying her. She asked them if it mattered, they said no - so she feels like they misled her. Maybe she's wrong, maybe the reason they broke up was completely different. But she's left feeling like she's good enough to have sex with, but not good enough to take home for the Seder. Which is a great way to make someone feel shitty.
posted by jb at 2:24 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

It would have been like me insisting on marrying someone who was baptised, though I haven't been Christian since I was 12.

No, it really isn't, because Judaism is not Christianity, and because it isn't possible to understand Judaism through the lens of Christianity, which it kind of sounds like you're doing, to be honest.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:25 PM on April 3, 2018 [18 favorites]

I've found the xeno-phobia in the Jewish community regarding interfaith relationships to be deeply disturbing.

Maybe in your community, but at least among secular and Reform Jewish Americans, interfaith relationships seem to fairly well-received. I'm the child of an interfaith marriage myself, although to be fair my dad does enjoy frying his latkes in bacon fat (they're really good!), so he's not devoutly Jewish by any stretch of the imagination.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:25 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]

I totally understand when someone feels strongly about their religion and want someone who will engage in it with them. But it feels so - frankly, prejudiced - when people seem worried about whether a woman has a Jewish womb (for the making of Jewish babies) when they don't practice the religion. It would have been like me insisting on marrying someone who was baptised, though I haven't been Christian since I was 12.

Friend, that is not your decision to make.
posted by Toddles at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]

I disapprove of xenophobia elsewhere in the world, I'll disapprove of it within my own community.

Setting boundaries around your ethnicity or religion is not xenophobia. There are mechanisms for becoming Jewish if someone wants to be part of the religion. If they don't, well, synagogues are religious institutions meant for Jewish people.

But, again, if you are uncomfortable with the way your particular community addresses the question of interfaith relationships, it may be a mismatch of communities.

I will give an example from my own life. I was adopted into Judaism within Reform, and never had a conversation ceremony, as Reform did not then require it of adoptees. Outside of Reform, especially in Orthodox communities, I would not be considered a Jew unless I had a conversion ceremony, despite having been Jewish my entire life.

That used to bother me, but, eh, they get to pick who they think is Jewish. I am not planning to be Orthodox, and, if I were, I would convert. But I am a secular Jew with a Reform upbringing and am perfectly comfortable being that. I don't get offended that they wouldn't want to marry me or have me at social events that are intended for possible romantic partners.
posted by maxsparber at 2:31 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

My wife is a Jew, I am nominally Catholic. The Reform temple I was married at fired the Rabbi that performed our wedding, because he performed our wedding. Apparently, a significant enough percentage of the membership disapproved of our interfaith relationship.

Our new temple is much more welcoming, though one of the Rabbis there still refuses perform interfaith weddings.
posted by curiousgene at 2:34 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

Canadian Reform rabbis are more conservative than American, and in Toronto still will not perform or even just bless interfaith marriages.

I think that's bad for the community - not for the non-Jews, but for the Jewish partners. A friend of mine observed that if you make someone chose between their religion and the person they love, more often than not they will chose the person they love. He was talking about being religious and gay, but agreed that it also held for interfaith couples. Again: if you care about Jewish continuity, you won't make it harder for people to be part of the community. It's the Jewish partners whom I have seen most hurt when rabbis they love and respect don't seem to care as much about them.

And it's a numbers game: I know a family who utterly ceased being Jewish not due to a mixed marriage, but due to the Jewish side not accepting the marriage. This was decades ago (1940s) and her side had plenty of anti-Semitism. But it was his side that proved the least accepting. They lost their son, and Judaism lost him and his children. I don't know what things would have been like if the Jewish side had been more accepting - he wasn't religious, she was, and they moved somewhere with no Jewish community. But certainly it caused a lot of unnecessary pain and separation, and only two generations later did one of his grandchildren go back to rediscover his Jewish heritage, and find something pretty awesome that maybe should have been shared all along.
posted by jb at 2:35 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

So in a FPP about an anti-semitic article your argument is "the Jews are the real bad guys here" WTF???
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 2:37 PM on April 3, 2018 [22 favorites]

JB - I think taking her word for it that it was their Judaism that ended the relationship gives her way too much credit. From what she wrote she sounds insufferable and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts she did the whole making-inappropriate-insider-Jewish-comments thing on the regular that certain non-Jewish people who spend a lot of time around Judaism do. The whole joking about how she knows more about Judaism than her boyfriend thing is like a giant red flag in that department. See also the opening two paragraph where she basically paints herself as a mythical "honorary Jew."

If her ex-boyfriends actually did bring up their Judaism as a reason for breaking up with her - and who knows? - it was probably because it was the one reason she couldn't or would't argue against. That's a lot easier than "you have revealed yourself over time to be kind of horrible."
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:38 PM on April 3, 2018 [16 favorites]

But it was his side that proved the least accepting.

i mean. i would probably side with the people who didn't want their child to marry an antisemite but i guess that's radical xenophobia now
posted by poffin boffin at 2:40 PM on April 3, 2018 [21 favorites]

I wish everyone saying "hey, they get to define their community" would start thinking how they would feel if it were, say, Ethiopian Jews being excluded, or Ugandan Reform Jews. Because that also totally happens and pretty well for the same reasons. As a white Reform convert, I'm largely accepted in the reform community and by the Israeli government; I don't care about the Orthodox, since I don't recognise their authority. But Indigenous Guatemalans converted by the exact same rabbi as me are subject to far greater scrutiny.

Communities define themselves - and I call it out when I think those definitions are xenophobic or racist, just like I would call it out when a country club - a community after all - is.
posted by jb at 2:42 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

Ethiopian Jews being excluded, or Ugandan Reform Jews

Somewhat different circumstance than not accepting an actual Gentile.
posted by maxsparber at 2:44 PM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]

poffin boffin: that's very offensive. I said her family was disapproving. She married the guy, and wasn't anti-Semitic.

And in the end, her family was less racist than his.
posted by jb at 2:44 PM on April 3, 2018

She asked them if it mattered, they said no - so she feels like they misled her.

I feel like there's a broad spectrum among my Jewish friends who are open to intermarriage, with things ranging from "Jewish partner would be a bonus" to "I mean, not somebody too much into Jesus" to "As long as they agree to raise the kids Jewish" to "I seriously, really don't care either way".

I think it's entirely possible that, as others mentioned above, she is more religious than she tries to paint herself in the column, and over time, I could see a person who is theoretically open to an intermarriage, and still might be good with marrying a non-Jew, when things started getting serious, decided it was a deal breaker. In which case, it's not so much "I'm not marrying you because you're not my religion/in my group" as a more basic "Your beliefs and value systems aren't compatible with mine".

I married a non-Jew, who has since converted. For me, dating someone who was more "I was confirmed but never went to church again" was a very different kettle of fish from someone who goes to church every week, is involved with groups there, etc.
posted by damayanti at 2:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

I said her family was disapproving.

If you scroll up you will discover that you literally said "her side had plenty of anti-Semitism."
posted by maxsparber at 2:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

and her side had plenty of anti-Semitism

your actual own words, to which i am reacting. if you now claim that you spoke in error then i will certainly amend that statement.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

This was decades ago (1940s) and her side had plenty of anti-Semitism. But it was his side that proved the least accepting.

Yes. If only Jews in the 1940s had been more accepting. . .

You might want to back off a bit here, jb. You're going someplace dark.
posted by The Bellman at 2:47 PM on April 3, 2018 [20 favorites]

Well, that article was absolutely terrible. But on the plus, you guys have really put me in the mood for gin. So off to the bar!
posted by thivaia at 2:52 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

Bellman: all the more reason to hold your family close to you and love them unconditionally, and for Judaism to embrace all who love Jews. We can't afford not to.
posted by jb at 2:55 PM on April 3, 2018

One comment deleted; introducing an analogy to an even more charged topic is never a good way to go. At this point the thread is kind of turning into a referendum on jb's own take on this and that's really run its course. Please step back for a bit and let the thread breathe.]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:55 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

Frankly, these men should not have dated her if they weren't interested in marrying her.

Ehhh it's not really so simple when you're Jewish and dating in the world at large rather than within a Jewish community and especially when dating in one's 20s when many people don't even have an eye toward marriage when they start seeing someone.

I don't really know any Jews who grew up religious but basically everyone except for a few (myself included) were raised to Marry A Jew. When they became young adults their parents said do what you want for now but at the end of the day you Marry A Jew. And some of them did and some of them didn't but the one thing was that nearly everyone I know married someone they had no intention of marrying when they started dating because they weren't dating to get married. And then suddenly they were exclusive and only then the time came to really do some soul-searching about how much it matters that you Marry A Jew (or Listen To Your Parents or whatever.)

You can only really figure out that specific, shitty kind of stringing-along in retrospect. Anything else prognostication and fortune-telling which, going by how many of my friends went from the "my parents will literally kill me if they knew I was dating you" conversation to "deal with it, mom and dad" conversation, is often worth exactly bupkis. More often than not? I have no idea, but often enough.
posted by griphus at 2:58 PM on April 3, 2018 [17 favorites]

god life is so much easier when all you have ever wanted was to die single surrounded by small yappy dogs and one fat orange cat
posted by poffin boffin at 3:01 PM on April 3, 2018 [28 favorites]

Are ... are you me?
posted by maxsparber at 3:03 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]

I kinda feel like the "Well she's right because some Jews really do want to marry other Jews" discussion is pretty far afield from why people objected to this piece.
posted by holborne at 3:10 PM on April 3, 2018 [31 favorites]

Sometimes you fall in love with people and it turns out they are anti-semites and then you spend some time imagining that you might be wrong and you didn't entirely get what they said and then you realize you were right in the first place.
This can take a while.
posted by mumimor at 3:13 PM on April 3, 2018 [15 favorites]

As a child of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother, I...kind of think there's a point in there somewhere. Sexist stereotypes of both Jewish and non-Jewish women mean that these relationships don't exist in a vacuum. And it can lead to some weird situations, where the blond, conventionally attractive non-Jewish woman is good enough for a relationship of a few years but not for marriage, when obeying conventions suddenly means settling down with someone of one's own religious background.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:45 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

My parents are still happily married, if you're wondering.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:47 PM on April 3, 2018

She ended the article with a bacon martini joke. I think some people are giving her "point" too much credit.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:50 PM on April 3, 2018 [19 favorites]

I never plan on marrying anyone. My girlfriend is okay with that, is she also never plans to marry anyone.

17 years this May, folks.
posted by maxsparber at 4:07 PM on April 3, 2018 [15 favorites]

JB - I think taking her word for it that it was their Judaism that ended the relationship gives her way too much credit.

she specifically said it WASN'T their Judaism that ended the relationship.

half the comments here are pure fantasy about an imaginary article that had some kind of coherent complaint to make. in fact the article makes no argument, offers only disjointed bits of bigotry unconnected to anything real that ever happened to her. all these offerings here of things a person MIGHT object to in an interfaith relationship have no parallels in her own story. Once past the headline she had no examples of these guys engaging in any rebellion by choosing her, or rebelling at all in any way; no examples of their families rejecting her, but rather vice versa; no religion-related conflicts of any kind with the sole exception of her getting bored and impatient when one boyfriend insisted on talking about Judaism in a conversation that wasn't about marriage or family. that was her complaint, that he was treating it as a subject of interest in itself and not an adjunct to "family." she had one petty (bigoted) resentment about her exes' next girlfriends both being Jewish that turned out to be made up. she didn't have any points. not even wrong ones. that's why the responses she got were anger, contempt, and mockery. not rebuttals. there's plenty to condemn and nothing to rebut.

trying to write a better article for her in the comments section in order to have some substance to argue with means trying to think up "good" reasons for not dating Jews. multiple people are doing it and they're not arguing not on the side they think they are. you're not reading generously; you're writing a brand new article. maybe don't.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:08 PM on April 3, 2018 [41 favorites]

2. Frankly, these men should not have dated her if they weren't interested in marrying her.

what an inane and paternalistic thing to say.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:09 PM on April 3, 2018 [17 favorites]

i would marry the arishok but he is 01) pretend and also 02) I GUESS technically a genocidal religious fanatic
posted by poffin boffin at 4:11 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

Which is the hate readingest first person essay of all? À bracket to reach a consensus.
posted by ChuraChura at 4:23 PM on April 3, 2018 [15 favorites]

(many strong contenders, but my money's on the Neo-Victorians)
posted by ChuraChura at 4:26 PM on April 3, 2018

i was literally just rereading that thread for the lulz, it is so good
posted by poffin boffin at 4:27 PM on April 3, 2018

I'm a Jew - and I totally get her. Maybe it's because I'm a Jew-by-choice (aka a convert), but I've found the xeno-phobia in the Jewish community regarding interfaith relationships to be deeply disturbing.

So, as I said in my first comment in this thread, I'm a product of this

Of all the faiths polled by Naomi Schaefer Riley, author of “Til Faith Do Us Part: How Interfaith Marriage Is Transforming America,” Jews are more likely to intermarry than other religions. A study conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2013 reported that almost half — 44 percent — of married Jews in the United States have a spouse who isn’t Jewish. The tradition seems to be passed from generation to generation: Eighty-three percent of married Jews who have just one Jewish parent are married to someone who is not Jewish. A small group of leaders in the Conservative Jewish movement are even working to promote acceptance of interfaith marriages.

trend in an earlier generation of liberal Jews. A lot of my friends and family are too - in particular in my circle of close friends growing up almost everybody was some sort of Jewish, and we all recognized each other as part of the same Thing on one level or another. As a result I have a pretty well-defined and proud mixed identity, and I certainly get where you ("jp") are coming from when it comes to conservatives policing the boundaries of Jewish identity. I have spent more time personally irritated by that than by WASPs complaining about dating Jews. But - that's part of why this essay was so weird to me. It's... not actually about that? I'm not sure it's actually about anything? She specifically says she's not talking about (small-or-large-'C') conservative, or even observant men. She spends a bunch of it filling in background that mostly supports that interfaith relationships in more liberal traditions are generally going pretty okay (as is my experience). It's just disorientingly empty of meaning beyond "I Am A Bit Weird About Jews." (and then some editor thought this would be a fun seasonal topic I don't even know)
posted by atoxyl at 4:28 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

> queenofbithynia:
"you're not reading generously; you're writing a brand new article."

I see a divide in MetaFilter with regard to treating the original post as a substrate for conversation vs. the object for discussion. The piece itself wasn't that interesting or deep. The only thing inherently notable is that a WaPo editor encouraged its publication. That's part of the reason I found the Twitter maelstrom so useless; who actually thinks we need a referendum on Carey Purcell?

There is plenty to say about relationships between Jews and non-Jews. Couching it in terms of this article and its author doesn't get you very far, unless the topic you want to discuss is cluelessness.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 4:31 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]

many strong contenders, but my money's on the Neo-Victorians

Ah, 2015. Back when Neo-Victorians(!) were something we all thought was worth getting upset about.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:35 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]

they were awful and you can never take that away from me
posted by poffin boffin at 4:37 PM on April 3, 2018 [19 favorites]

If one needs to mention their religion or lack there of to describe themselves then they've already lost me. Why would I tell someone I'm Jewish, or Christian, or atheist unless that mattered to me? The proclamation of any such affiliation is not natural.
posted by waving at 4:41 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

*sips martini*
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:54 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

I don't really know any Jews who grew up religious but basically everyone except for a few (myself included) were raised to Marry A Jew.

I mean, it's not like other faiths aren't like this, too. My (Catholic) family was very concerned when my brother was dating a Presbyterian woman, for instance. But that didn't draw the "Don't worry, they won't let her marry him" comments his high school relationship with a Jewish girl did.

I also noticed the author's hand-wavey "I'm a very loosely-defined Christian" followed by mentions of church attendance and church friends which implies more of an adherence to Christianity than she's admitting. Which is fine, but then don't be judgey about your ex-boyfriends not celebrating the High Holy Days. It's all very "they pretended they weren't really Jewish and then they acted like Jews!"
posted by camyram at 4:58 PM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]

I don't really know any Jews who grew up religious but basically everyone except for a few (myself included) were raised to Marry A Jew. When they became young adults their parents said do what you want for now but at the end of the day you Marry A Jew. And some of them did and some of them didn't but the one thing was that nearly everyone I know married someone they had no intention of marrying when they started dating because they weren't dating to get married. And then suddenly they were exclusive and only then the time came to really do some soul-searching about how much it matters that you Marry A Jew (or Listen To Your Parents or whatever.)

This was every single one of my friends in High School, except for them it was "You will marry someone Indian/Chinese/Pakistani/Syrian/Japanese/Korean/Malaysian/Vietnamese... etc., etc., or we will disown you" depending on their individual heritage. All of them dated people who weren't those things. And some married outside their heritage.

That phenomenon is certainly not restricted to religion.
posted by zarq at 5:20 PM on April 3, 2018 [9 favorites]

Vey.Iz.Mir.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:39 PM on April 3, 2018

Is there a way for the writer to come back from this essay? I can't imagine what that might be.

are you kidding me, come back? this is her rise-to-glory origin story right here, have you ever heard of a little man I like to call jordan peterson, he's got some straight up race science theories about Jewish Success Genes and he's doing great, just tremendous, rolling in money when he's not crying on his diagrams about Jung's chthonic Overbearing Mother

no no I'm the one who's kidding, of course. this is a woman, her career would be over if she'd had one

note: deservedly, obviously
note note: in a world with a place for everyone, and everyone in their place, she'd be an xojane assistant editor for the rest of her life. but that particular sinners' purgatory is no more.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:19 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]

Which is the hate readingest first person essay of all?

For me, the winner will always be Sandra Tsing Loh's "I cheated on my husband and am getting a divorce, so marriage as an institution is a failure."

Here's the relevant Metafilter thread.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:23 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

There is plenty to say about relationships between Jews and non-Jews. Couching it in terms of this article and its author doesn't get you very far, unless the topic you want to discuss is cluelessness.

Clueless antisemitism is a factor in the relationship between Jews and non-Jews. And I've been dealing with microaggressive shit like this my whole life and basically dismissing it as irritating but benign, but it's not seeming quite so benign anymore, because I'm encountering a lot more macroaggressive antisemitic shit.

I also noticed the author's hand-wavey "I'm a very loosely-defined Christian" followed by mentions of church attendance and church friends which implies more of an adherence to Christianity than she's admitting. Which is fine, but then don't be judgey about your ex-boyfriends not celebrating the High Holy Days. It's all very "they pretended they weren't really Jewish and then they acted like Jews!"

There's a certain kind of Christian who gets really offended by people who identify as Jewish but aren't religiously observant, because they get to define Jewishness as a religious identity, and they get to decide how religion works, and we have no right to claim to be Jewish if we're not behaving as they think a Jew should behave. I thought about it a lot when Steve King said that awful thing about how Emma Gonzalez isn't really Cuban because she doesn't speak Spanish, and how her ancestors wouldn't have had to leave Cuba if they'd had guns to stop the Communists. It's the same shit: he gets to decide other people's identity, and he gets to rewrite their stories to suit his ends. And Steve King is evil, but I think a lot of the time they don't even realize they're doing it, because they so take for granted that the way they see things are right, and they're entitled to impose it on everyone else.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:26 PM on April 3, 2018 [46 favorites]

> If one needs to mention their religion or lack there of to describe themselves then they've already lost me. Why would I tell someone I'm Jewish, or Christian, or atheist unless that mattered to me? The proclamation of any such affiliation is not natural.

If my background is an ethnic, religious, or cultural minority - especially one with a long and brutal history of persecution - but I "look" like a person from the majority, you bet I'm going to mention it. If you declare that my background doesn't matter to you, then you can also bet I will take it as a given we will not be friends or in a dating relationship, because why would I want to be with someone who thinks "not caring" about my background - the stuff that makes me me - some kind of selling point? All you've done is let me know that you will erase parts of me you don't think are important - and that you are somehow in a position to decide what those are. Bye!
posted by rtha at 6:48 PM on April 3, 2018 [26 favorites]

I wonder if "hatereadfilter" might be a good tag to add to the lexicon.
posted by uosuaq at 6:49 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

If one needs to mention their religion or lack there of to describe themselves then they've already lost me. Why would I tell someone I'm Jewish, or Christian, or atheist unless that mattered to me?

Mayyyyyybe they mention it because it matters to them? Just an idea. I mean, when I meet someone I don't lead off with "I'm a Buddhist" but if it looked like we might become close I would mention it because it's important to me.

The proclamation of any such affiliation is not natural.

Sheesh, the proclamations "I'm a Raiders fan" or "I'm a championship golfer" aren't "natural", but they're useful for learning something about the person who says it. Lots of things we humans do aren't "natural", but we still do them and they're often important to the people who do.
posted by Lexica at 6:57 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]

I'm in an interfaith marriage (I'm a non-Jewish woman, my husband is Jewish) and honestly the people who act the weirdest about it are some of my completely religiously unaffiliated friends and family who are otherwise quite liberal and worldly. Like a friend who drank the Sex and the City Charlotte's conversion koolaid and was CONVINCED I'd have to convert (even after I told them no, I was not converting, and no, my husband was not secretly expecting it).

On the other hand, the most offensive thing I've ever experienced being in an interfaith marriage was attending my husband's grandparents (modern Orthodox) synagogue and reading in the newsletter that the top two threats to the Jewish people included Hamas and interfaith marriage. That sure made me feel great!

(I feel profoundly lucky that the Reform synagogue my husband is affiliated with is extremely supportive of interfaith couples. I only attend services with him once in a while, but the fact that they are the only institution that has never fucked up my name on mailings, and how amazing our rabbi was with our pre-marriage counseling makes me so sad for other interfaith couples who don't feel welcome at their congregation.)
posted by mostly vowels at 7:09 PM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]

Which is the hate readingest first person essay of all? À bracket to reach a consensus.

Wow, those are some genuinely terrible essays, for all kinds of reasons. I hadn't seen the house renovation one before -- it's by no means the worst, but I'm kind of speechless all the same.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:27 PM on April 3, 2018

> ArbitraryAndCapricious:
"Clueless antisemitism is a factor in the relationship between Jews and non-Jews."

Sure, that's valid. Related: maxsparber's blog has a discussion of anti-Semites' use of "goy" as if they're in-the-know (and then introduces "weird Jewish Twitter").

I believe part of the tension in this thread is that, as the Tablet piece shows, there are valuable conversations to be had about that relationship outside the scope of anti-Semitism. This is something a few people here want. And yet it feels off to use Purcell's post as the jumping off point for such a discussion when she lacks insight into Judaism and couldn't make the case that her not being Jewish was the issue.

One key component to E. Tammy Kim's article is that she exhibits an understanding of her own self and then reveals that to the reader. Purcell doesn't even give us that. There's not only cluelessness about the other, but also the self.

That's what, to me, makes the WaPo piece not very interesting to talk about.

More compelling is how people reacted to it. And we've mostly ignored the second link.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 7:29 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

And by second link, I mean second and third.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 7:39 PM on April 3, 2018

Professionally throwing up a “Whatever” shrug on the definition of a martini is, or what makes a good one.

On the other hand, you wanna talk about an old-fashioned w/ bacon-fat-washed bourbon, we’re on. I’ve worked with fat-washed bourbon before, and it’s fucking brilliant.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:52 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

Yes — I’ve had that drink, it’s interesting and not obvious how to recreate — thanks for the link! All the more ironic that the essayist thinks she’s “created” it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:58 PM on April 3, 2018

Man, I just realized I spent a whole day at work, ass deep in juice and recipes, sleep deprived, and I approached that last comment from a purely cocktail perspective.

I was not reaching for the bacon as a… thing. I just completely ignored the greater context of the thread.

Just saying.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:01 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

I just remembered the most tone-deaf thing a non-Jew said to me regarding Judaism. I was shopping around for a therapist and met this guy for a first appointment. Within 5 minutes, he asked me point-blank if I was Jewish and then diagnosed me with intergenerational Holocaust survivor guilt. I didn't go back.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 9:36 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

2. Frankly, these men should not have dated her if they weren't interested in marrying her.

So, wait, is the only acceptable to date someone if you're planning on marrying them?

Seriously. Whatever happened to dating for cheap drunken sex and going bicycling together in Central Park? I'm disappointed in modern New York.
posted by happyroach at 10:14 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

I'm guessing the elided bit of that statement about not dating if you're not interested in marriage is probably something like "If you are looking for someone to marry, or the person you're dating is looking for someone to marry" ... then don't date someone when you know you won't marry them, that's cruel. (And when someone comes in to AskMe saying "I'm dating this great girl, I know she wants to marry me, and I know for sure I'll never marry her, but I really want to keep dating her because the sex is great and I hate being alone, is it okay to keep dating her until I find someone I think is marriage material?" AskMe rightly points out that this is incredibly cruel and selfish.)

I don't, however, think we have any evidence that these dudes wouldn't marry a non-Jew, and that this dynamic was at play in this particular situation, just that they didn't marry her, and her essay suggests many possible reasons for that because she does not paint herself in a good light! It's even totally possible that the men were still dating around, while she was dating for marriage, and they broke up because the men realized she wanted something much more serious than the men were ready for, and they were being cool about not leading her on!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:28 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]

There's a certain kind of Christian who gets really offended by people who identify as Jewish but aren't religiously observant, because they get to define Jewishness as a religious identity, and they get to decide how religion works, and we have no right to claim to be Jewish if we're not behaving as they think a Jew should behave.

Because Jews are really just props in their creepy apocalyptic fantasies. (Not going to put in a link because I really can't bring myself to troll through the garbage the appropriate searches would bring up.) I have relatives convinced they "stand with Israel," etc., when, due to their geographical distribution, they've probably never had a single Jewish meaningful acquaintance. You bet their head is filled with weird stereotypes, and the belief that they know how Jews are supposed to be because, again, Jews are really just bit players with a divinely-predefined role in their epic view of history.
posted by praemunire at 10:56 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

Purcell isn't a shiksa goddess, she's a shiksa paskudska.
posted by brujita at 11:49 PM on April 3, 2018

she lacks insight into Judaism
The nails-on-a-blackboard thing, to someone the authenticity of whose ethnicity is occasionally questioned by 'woke' white people, is her assumption that she knows all about it.

And that her own culturally determined biases (as, dating to marry, mothers are intrusive, 'mild' Christianity is no sort of cultural barrier, her ideal of womanhood is unarguable and so on and on) is objective and universal.
posted by glasseyes at 4:14 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

If you declare that my background doesn't matter to you, then you can also bet I will take it as a given we will not be friends or in a dating relationship, because why would I want to be with someone who thinks "not caring" about my background - the stuff that makes me me - some kind of selling point?

Proclaiming religious affiliation of any kind is a great way to weed people out of a dating pool when it isn't important. If it is important to one but not the other then naturally it's not a good fit. Saying good bye isn't offensive, it's how it should be. I would be glad to get on with dating other people I have more in common with, like people who have other things to talk about than their religious beliefs, which I personally don't rank very highly, so what. Do you care if my husband is Jewish, because we sure don't. It's just not what he's about given all the other words he can use to describe himself.
posted by waving at 5:06 AM on April 4, 2018

> Proclaiming religious affiliation of any kind is a great way to weed people out of a dating pool when it isn't important.

Identifying oneself has Jewish is not exactly like identifying oneself as Christian, and it's also not exactly like proclaiming one's religious affiliation.
posted by rtha at 5:41 AM on April 4, 2018 [26 favorites]

queenofbithynia: no religion-related conflicts of any kind with the sole exception of her getting bored and impatient when one boyfriend insisted on talking about Judaism in a conversation that wasn't about marriage or family. that was her complaint, that he was treating it as a subject of interest in itself and not an adjunct to "family."

As I read that paragraph, she couldn't figure out why Judaism belonged in a couple's conversations about "money, careers and plans for the future."

She could, by contrast, understand why Judaism was in conversations about "family or children."

Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to have understood their points well enough to relay them to us, so all that we're given is that her boyfriends thought that Judaism mattered in discussions of money and career, and she couldn't imagine why they would.
posted by clawsoon at 5:44 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

I also noticed the author's hand-wavey "I'm a very loosely-defined Christian" followed by mentions of church attendance and church friends which implies more of an adherence to Christianity than she's admitting.

I also squinted at that. If you move in the circles of young journalists living in NYC, regular church attendance puts you in a high percentile of religious seriousness.

If one needs to mention their religion or lack there of to describe themselves then they've already lost me. Why would I tell someone I'm Jewish, or Christian, or atheist unless that mattered to me? The proclamation of any such affiliation is not natural.

Have you ever spent a significant amount of time living outside of your home country or in another situation where you are a cultural minority? Fish don't think about water.
posted by atrazine at 6:23 AM on April 4, 2018 [15 favorites]

Identifying oneself has Jewish is not exactly like identifying oneself as Christian, and it's also not exactly like proclaiming one's religious affiliation.
I get that. But being Jewish doesn't have to be more meaningful to a Jew if he chooses to prioritize is life in other ways that are more meaningful to him personally. As a societal concern it is a priority. If we have chosen to take people at face value and are not interested in discussing the Jewish aspect of his upbringing, at least not unless there is a context to do so. For example, one of his family members is a professor and publishes fiction with Judiasm a central theme. That provides context we can appreciate. For us, Judiasm just doesn't come up because it's not a priority for us and if it were for one of us we would be sorely mismatched.
posted by waving at 6:40 AM on April 4, 2018

I think the crux of my frustration at the article is the idea of collective responsibility and accountability -- that the behavior of one or a few members of a group reflect on and can be extrapolated to other members of the same group. This is something privileged groups do to non-privileged groups all the time, but refuse it for themselves.

The example I think of most often is that fact that in racist circles there is the idea that black people or Hispanic people or Muslims have cultures of violence -- that there is something entrenched in their very culture that causes crime or terrorism. And so every person from that group that does something violent supports that narrative, because each individual is a reflection of the group.

But white people have the same stuff. We have murder ballads and films that celebrate lawlessness and violence as a solution. We have criminals. We have terrorists. And yet none of these are seen as reflecting on white people as a whole, because white people get to be individual, get to demand to be judged as individuals, rather than as part of a group.

This story should never have passed the editor's desk, because it presumes that, based on a sample size of two, the author has enough information to comment on Jews in general. The two Jewish men she dated are not individuals, but representative of a larger whole, and because she was able to isolate elements about them that confirmed her latent antisemitism, she believed this confirmed her ideas about Jews as a whole.

An example of this is her believing the stereotype about the pushy mother; there are Jewish mothers who are pushy, but I have met hundreds of pushy mothers, most not Jewish, and the Christian pushy mothers are not seen as being as being representative of their group. In fact, "pushiness," which is cast as a negative when Jewish women do it, is recast as being a "mama bear" when Gentiles do it. (I will note that there seems to be another group who is saddled with "pushy motherness" as being a cultural negative, which is Chinese Americans with the stereotype of the Tiger Mother.)

I literally cannot imagine the same publication running a piece by someone called "I dated two white people and am done." There is no presumption that two would be a sample size large enough to make any guesses about what white people are like as a whole. But for Jews, two is enough, because one would be enough, because each Jew is seen as being reflective of Judaism as a whole, and Judaism as a whole is accountable for their individual behavior.

This is antisemitic, in the same way that holding black people as a whole responsible for the behavior of individual black people, in the same way that holding Islam as a whole responsible for the behavior of individual Muslims is Islamophobic, in the same way as etc. etc. etc.

And the reason we don't want to discuss what the editor thinks should be the discussion engendered by this article — the difficulties of dating between different cultures — is because this is an antisemitic article and I'm right now not in the mood to say that antisemitism is okay if something else comes from it.
posted by maxsparber at 7:46 AM on April 4, 2018 [44 favorites]

This story should never have passed the editor's desk, because it presumes that, based on a sample size of two, the author has enough information to comment on Jews in general.

For a skewering of the "sweeping generalizations based on a miniscule sample size" issue (and the breezy narcissistic style of the Purcell piece), here's yet another parody article: I Am Tired of Being a White Christian Man's Rebellion.

So what if I have a heavily curated dating pool? It just means I learn from my mistakes! A brown-haired man ghosted me, so I won’t be making that mistake again. A neurosurgeon once wore some really foul cargo shorts, so I don’t date medical professionals. I don’t care how many tumors you’ve removed from children: your style is going to embarrass me in public, so I won’t date you. Another guy I dated dumped me after he told me he felt like I don’t listen. He was always talking about how proud he was of his nieces and nephews, so now as soon as I find out a guy I’m into is an uncle, I walk the hell out of there.
posted by creepygirl at 11:08 AM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]

being Jewish doesn't have to be more meaningful to a Jew if he chooses to prioritize

It's OK for people to choose not to identify with their Judaism (or other). It's not OK to dismiss anyone who chooses the opposite. And if what you really mean is 'I don't consider people who thinking religious affiliation is important are romantically compatible with me', that's also fine, but that's a lot more respectful then 'if anyone chooses to mention this... they've already lost me', which implies that you'd become offended by people mentioning this topic in passing conversation, which is frankly, bizarre.
posted by bq at 11:22 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

Identifying oneself has Jewish is not exactly like identifying oneself as Christian, and it's also not exactly like proclaiming one's religious affiliation.

I get that.

No, I don't think you do. I'm a Jew, even though I haven't set foot in a synagogue in years. Why am I a Jew, you may ask? It's because I can't choose not to be a Jew. I don't have that option. I may not practice the religion, but being a Jew is infused in the way I was raised, the way I speak, the way I eat, the way I think. And it's super weird in the modern conscious era, because being an American Ashkenazi Jew means I have white privilege, so I have to be aware of that, but it's a sort of ersatz white privilege. One look at my name, or the texture of my hair, and you know what I am, and my white privilege can be revoked just like that in a way it can't be revoked from other white subgroups. More than anything else, it's a millennia-long history of privilege being granted and then suddenly and violently snatched away that defines the Jewish culture. And if you can't grok that, you can't grok us.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:52 AM on April 4, 2018 [29 favorites]

There was a discussion I had years ago about Judaism and somebody dismissively said that oppression of Jews was not like other oppressions because I could just stop being Jewish, and I have thought about that a lot since then. I mean, I'm not just white passing, as an Irish-American I am white. I could switch to my birth name, Baby Boy Monaghan, and try to just disappear into the woodwork, just be another white dude.

And then, if the worst happened and history repeated itself, in order to just stop being Jewish in the eyes of whatever new group of antisemities were rounding people up, all I would have to do would be:

1. Make sure anyone who ever knew I was Jewish was dead
2. Burn every issue ever published of any newspaper that made any mentions of my Jewishness, such as the American Jewish World in Minneapolis, where I am editor, and the Jewish newspaper in Omaha, where I contributed, and the Irish Times, which interviewed me recently
3. Scrub the digital record of any reference to my Jewishness, such as my IMDB listing, podcasts where I have mentioned it, etc. All told, I reckon there are about 3,000 online sites that I would have to somehow eliminate any digital record of
4. Make sure there is no link between my birth name and my adoptive name, which would probably mean burning down the various institutions that handled my adoption and destroying any digital records they might have
5. Eliminating the records of synagogues and other Jewish institutions I have belonged to or worked with, including dozens of synagogues, summer camps, youth groups, etc.
6. Track down every single copy of The Best of Strange Horizons, Year One and People of the Book: A Decade of Jewish Science Fiction and Fantasy, which both have anthologized a story about my Jewish family
7. Completely destroy MetaFilter, of course.

All told, it would probably require a decade, tens of millions of dollars of property damage, and several thousand deaths, but, yes, I could just walk about from being identified as Jewish if I wanted.
posted by maxsparber at 12:29 PM on April 4, 2018 [11 favorites]

I wonder if this is one of those things where -- and I apologize in advance because this is the axe i grind on here -- the distinction between Judaism and Jewishness (or however one wants to phrase that) is important to lay out for gentiles who don't quite grasp it. I'm Jewish, I'm unavoidably Jewish because my name might as well be "Moshe Rosenberg." I'm Ashkenazi and white but I'm not pink; I'm olive and swarthy and my five o'clock shadow is a full beard. As a teenager I was all "whatever" about Jewish identity because I was all "whatever" about any sort of identity I didn't personally choose. As I got older I realized that outside of my immigrant neighborhood in Brooklyn I don't fit in in America as a whole the same way a pink-skinned guy named Mark Smith does. Other Jews are pink-skinned and named Mark Smith and their experience is different and also valid but I'm stuck with my lot.

But none of that has to do with the practice of Judaism however, or synagogue attendance, or fasting on Yom Kippur or keeping the sabbath or lighting candles on Hannukah or whatever. Some of that stuff I do, some I do not, and I never quite progressed past my teenage distrust of authority so none of it is done under the auspices of Judaic authority. I'm Jewish, but I'm not a follower of "Judaism" and I bristle at "Judaism" being used to describe who I am to the world at large, because who I am as a Jew facing a world that is frequently hostile toward Jews, has almost nothing to do with what I do. It certainly has to do with what people (especially people actively hostile toward Jews but just ignorant people like the one who wrote the thing we're talking about) think I do but that's not something I have any control over.

Anyway here's a part of a Lenny Bruce about Lima, Ohio to close out whatever this is I just wrote:

I get off the floor, and a waitress says to me, “Listen, there’s a couple, they want to meet you.” It’s a nice couple, about fifty years old. The guy asks me, “You from New York?”
“Yes.”
“I recognized that accent.” And he’s looking at me, with a sort of searching hope in his eyes, and then he says, “Are you Jewish?”
“Yes.”
“What are you doing in a place like this?”
“I’m passing."

posted by griphus at 12:37 PM on April 4, 2018 [23 favorites]

The Mennonites on my father's side spent a few hundred years moving around Europe on paths that vaguely paralleled some Jewish migrations. Western Europe got unfriendly, so they headed east, then further east; Prussia, Poland, Russia. Then Eastern Europe got unfriendly, so they headed to North and South America.

But that doesn't give us an experience that's the same as Jewish people. Mennonites think of themselves as an ethnicity, but nobody else cares. Mennonites have been persecuted for being pacifists, for being Germans, and for being kulaks, but all of those can be shed. Nobody has ever cared how many drops of Mennonite blood I have in me except other Mennonites.
posted by clawsoon at 12:52 PM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]

griphus, I thought you were going to post Lenny Bruce's "Jewish and Goyish" routine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD6Oi2kySSU
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 1:12 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

Mennonites have been persecuted for being pacifists, for being Germans, and for being kulaks, but all of those can be shed. Nobody has ever cared how many drops of Mennonite blood I have in me except other Mennonites.

I have some misgivings about raising my daughter to embrace her Jewish ancestry although we don't practice any religion at home -- it's not my culture, after all, and although it's my wife's, she wasn't really raised with it, either -- but this is the thing that makes me feel that it's important. To anybody who cares about these things, my wife and daughter are Jews, full stop, and that cannot be erased, and so I feel that it needs to be remembered.
posted by uncleozzy at 1:13 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]

Have you ever spent a significant amount of time living outside of your home country or in another situation where you are a cultural minority? Fish don't think about water.

yeah, i learned really fast that i needed to be pretty upfront about being jewish when i was living in europe because otherwise i would be frequently subjected to the casual antisemitism of many of the british expats in my circle of friendquaintences who earnestly wanted me to know that jews control the media and the banks.

them: well you don't LOOK jewish!
me: hey you didn't look like a bigot either so i guess we're both surprised
posted by poffin boffin at 1:25 PM on April 4, 2018 [27 favorites]

and like. despite constant accusations of liberal bubbles and east coast groupthink, nyc is quite obviously incredibly fucking diverse, but it is also extremely not unusual to be jewish here. and taking that (lazy, irreligious, primarily cultural) comfortable jewishness outside of nyc is An Experience.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:30 PM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]

This may not be here nor there but the weird allyship that brings out is also kind of amazing. Almost fifteen years ago when I briefly lived and went to community college in a very white (also Hispanic and Black but definitely not Jewish) LA suburb I still remember the list of people I had developed some sort of odd kinship with on campus:

-The Macedonian immigrant in my astronomy class
-The Polish guy who managed to not talk about The Jews like 95% of the time
-The Armenian woman who once brought to lunch a kind of Eastern Eruopean salad I grew up eating
-The computer lab tech who was Irish-Italian from Philadelphia
-The actually Jewish sociology professor (literally the only Jew I had met there the whole time)
-The polisci professor who I still am pretty sure was Ted Kennedy

In NYC most of those would have been bright-line ethno-cultural distinctions but 30 miles outside of Burbank it was like that Treehouse of Horror episode where Homer ends up in the dimension where everyone has lizard tongues and is like "eh, close enough."
posted by griphus at 2:20 PM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

Proclaiming religious affiliation of any kind is a great way to weed people out of a dating pool when it isn't important.

This has been discussed at length above. But it's a really important thing to understand:

One can be a Jew and also be religiously not Jewish. Or an atheist or agnostic. Or simply secular. When you are born a Jew, that is what you remain, ethnically, throughout your life. Both to other Jews and to non-Jews. Perhaps especially to non-Jews. Who sometimes seem to care about it more than we do.

This distinction separates us from Christians, who can renounce their religion and no longer be Christian. You can renounce Judaism but you'll still be a Jew.

An old joke: An elderly Jewish gentleman named Daniel lives in an apartment building in an otherwise Catholic neighborhood where everyone adheres to the restriction of eating only fish on Fridays. Every Friday afternoon, however, Daniel bakes a chicken for his Shabbat meal.

The tantalizing aroma week after week is too much for his Catholic neighbors. They convince the local priest to deliver an ultimatum to the Jew: either Daniel converts to Catholicism and restricts himself to only eating fish on Fridays, or he has to move.

He doesn't want to move. It's a nice neighborhood. So, he agrees to convert. Three times the priest sprinkles holy water on him declaring: "Born a Jew, raised a Jew, now a Catholic."

Daniel's first Friday night as a Catholic comes around -- and the perfume of baking chicken wafts through the neighborhood. A neighborhood mob charges into the old man's apartment demanding, "What's with the chicken, Daniel? You're a Catholic now! Fish! You're supposed to eat fish on Fridays!"

He says, pointing to the roast bird on the dining room table, "That's no chicken; that's a fish."

"What?" They protest: "That's a chicken!"

Daniel walks over to the sink, wets his hands, approaches the table and sprinkles the chicken three times with water, saying, "Born a chicken, raised a chicken, now a fish!"
An irreverent and silly joke. But in a way, we're like that chicken. If you're born Jewish than you are ethnically Jewish. No matter what happens, that doesn't change. You can renounce your religion, change your name and convert to Catholicism, but you're still going to be ethnically Jewish.
posted by zarq at 3:55 PM on April 4, 2018 [17 favorites]

Thank you zarq, that is exactly it.

And that is exactly why when the author said she knew more about Judaism than her boyfriends, it was clear that she didn't know shit.
posted by Toddles at 4:24 PM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

In trying to explain zarq's great point, I often cite my college buddy Tony from Chicago, who is Italian (ethnicity) and Catholic (religion). There should be two different words to distinguish the two different aspects of beng Jewish.
posted by PhineasGage at 7:28 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

There's always Hiloni.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 7:45 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

> If you're born Jewish than you are ethnically Jewish. No matter what happens, that doesn't change. You can renounce your religion, change your name and convert to Catholicism, but you're still going to be ethnically Jewish.

I think this is something that I have internalized - to be clear, I am not Jewish - and that has had me stumbling over waving's comments. As a kid, I went from not knowing what a bagel was (they didn't exist in Hawaii at the time!) to moving to a Boston suburb at 11 where suddenly most of my friends were Jewish. The vast majority of the families of my friends were observant, but that observance was cultural, not religious. I had friends who came from families where the observance had a religious emphasis, but the ones from "less religion" end of things were no less Jewish. This became especially clear when Jewish families from the then-Soviet Union began arriving - the kids of those families I was closest to were definitely not Jewish because they believed in the theology, but because they engaged in the cultural practices (which are also religious but...context).

I have lost count over the years of the number of friends and acquaintances I've had who are atheist Jews (or Buddhist Jews, etc.), but (and) for whom it is also important that their identity as Jews be upfront, unapologetic, and acknowledged.
posted by rtha at 10:22 PM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

I have experienced casual and accidental and purposeful antisemitism in an awful lot of places, but one that still hurts is when my ex-boyfriend went to a family wedding with me and when we got back said, "So theoretically, how Jewish would your wedding have to be? Because that was ... a lot." And then, a few weeks later his mom cornered me to ask whether, if we had children, they would have to be Jews (not Jewish, Jews). This was 4 years into our relationship. He and his family knew me, they knew the way I interact with being Jewish, they knew my parents, and yet it felt like it was suddenly necessary to classify just how much Judaism they were brushing up against because it was starting to be too much.
posted by ChuraChura at 12:15 AM on April 5, 2018 [20 favorites]

my ex-boyfriend

a sheyne, reyne
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:23 AM on April 5, 2018

Man, ChuraChura, that is gross. My stomach started to hurt just reading about it; I can't even imagine how you felt.
posted by holborne at 8:49 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

And yet! I haven't sworn off men with no particular religious affiliation, nor do I think I know everything about all their mothers.
posted by ChuraChura at 12:07 PM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

Part of the reason Southern Christians (like this lady) have such a tough time with understanding "cultural" Jews is that Southern (white) Christianity is heavily premised on a "personal relationship with Jesus" that's a choice you make, as an adult. They actively reject other forms of Christianity where faith is viewed as a family or community affair and babies can be baptized (Catholicism, Orthodoxy); it's a strictly personal choice and decision based on your beliefs. A lot of them struggle with the idea of "lapsed Catholics" who still consider themselves Catholic but don't believe or practice; that Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity breaks their brains, and they quite frequently refuse to believe someone is Jewish if they're not religiously practicing/believing. Which sounds like a lot of this lady's problem and her whole "I knew more about Judaism than he did!" thing.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:16 PM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

Meanwhile on Reddit some woman in Alabama has found proof that not only are her co-workers being anti-Semitic dicks under the cover of being "nice", her manager wants her fired because she "doesn't fit in the company culture."
posted by rewil at 2:49 PM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

A lot of them struggle with the idea of "lapsed Catholics" who still consider themselves Catholic but don't believe or practice; that Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity breaks their brains, and they quite frequently refuse to believe someone is Jewish if they're not religiously practicing/believing. Which sounds like a lot of this lady's problem and her whole "I knew more about Judaism than he did!" thing.

Gotta say, i do not buy this excuse. Not do I think we should be rationalizing bigotry.

Plenty of Christians will go out of their way to see a "Jew doctor" or "Jew accountant." I've known many, many Christians who do this. I have relatives who are in those professions who live in the South and SouthWest United States, and they get business from Southern Baptists and other kinds of Christians strictly because those people are looking for a Jew. Regardless of religious observance. Because they believe Jews are good at medicine and working with money. Just as they might assume (in a similar racist way) that Asians are good at math. The stereotype is key, not the faith.

When I lived in Texas I met plenty of people who said awful anti-Semitic things and were perfectly capable of telling me that Jews, the people, had killed Jesus and therefore would be going to hell. Not because I attended a synagogue or temple. I didn't at the time. But because I had a Jewish last name. They didn't have a problem distinguishing me as a Jewish person separate from my Judaism. Religious observance or lack thereof was of secondary importance.

Many of them seem quite capable of making a distinction between religious observance and Jewish ethnicity/heritage. They are peculiarly obsessed with us and how we fit into their apocalypse fetish. Their anti-Semitic bigotry runs to the bone and is perpetuated by their communities, culture and religious teachings.
posted by zarq at 4:02 PM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

so what i'm hearing is that i could change my last name back to the old country version, put a dr in front of it, and potentially make a fortune defrauding racists down south
posted by poffin boffin at 4:15 PM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

Ha! You could.

One of my uncles was the first person with his very recognizably Jewish last name in the phone book of his moderately-sized town in Texas. A surgeon. Patients used to ask for him because of it and he used to joke that if he'd had the last name Smith, he'd have been far less busy.

My grandfather (my uncle's dad) was also the first person with his last name in the phone book of a town on Long Island when he moved his family there in the early 1950's. Their experience was a little different: the KKK set a cross on fire on their lawn on at least two occasions.
posted by zarq at 4:53 PM on April 5, 2018

"Gotta say, i do not buy this excuse. Not do I think we should be rationalizing bigotry. "

Oh, I don't mean it as an excuse. Just that it's a bit of a tell for a some Southern Christians who are bigots about Jews, if they're all on about what a "real" Jew is like, they often have this particular mental frame, and refuse to think outside it (because they know what faith -- all faiths! -- is supposed to look like and they reject anything that doesn't look like it). Sorry, I wrote that comment in two chunks separated by several hours so the ending didn't follow very logically from the beginning. But that's where I meant it to be going.

The Jews-in-the-apocalypse are another sort of bigot common in among fundamentalist/evangelical Christians, which sometimes overlaps with the first and sometimes doesn't.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:34 PM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

Plenty of Christians will go out of their way to see a "Jew doctor" or "Jew accountant."

Or a "Jew lawyer." My boss is observant, and the office is decorated with Judaic art. More than once I've heard a client exclaim "Oh, you're Jewish? That's great! Jews are so smart!" It's pretty icky.

(FYI: The use of the word "Jew" as an adjective is super hardcore anti-Semitic. zarq and I get a pass because we're Jewish and we're using it in an explanatory sense. If you're not Jewish, do not do this.)
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:15 PM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

The thing is, I don't get pushback on my mostly-secular Jewish identity exclusively, or even primarily, from evangelical Christians or Southerners. I've heard it from Catholics and mainline Protestants, and I've heard it from a couple of atheists from Catholic or mainline Protestant backgrounds. What characterizes those people isn't really any particular set of religious belief. It's a profound belief in the absolute truth of their own perspective. It's a sense of entitlement that comes from dominance.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:22 PM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

Oh, I don't mean it as an excuse. Just that it's a bit of a tell for a some Southern Christians who are bigots about Jews, if they're all on about what a "real" Jew is like, they often have this particular mental frame, and refuse to think outside it (because they know what faith -- all faiths! -- is supposed to look like and they reject anything that doesn't look like it).

Ah. Ok. That makes sense.

Sorry, I wrote that comment in two chunks separated by several hours so the ending didn't follow very logically from the beginning. But that's where I meant it to be going.

I'm going to apologize as well. When I wrote the above I was a bit hypersensitive about the deleted exchange upthread (referenced by LM in a mod note above) where someone had been defending the author. I read your comment, jumped to an unjustified conclusion that you were doing the same and that influenced my response. I'm sorry about that.
posted by zarq at 11:21 AM on April 9, 2018

As a religious Jew myself, after reading her article I have a different take on this. I actually felt for her. Yes her attitude stems from ignorance as well as massive lack of self awareness... but she doesn't hate Jews. After all she wanted to build a family with these Jewish men and when they didn't want to build one with her she felt rejected and hurt. Because she is hurt and doesn't really understand why it happened, it' being expressed as anger and blame.

I'm not ultra-orthodox or even orthodox for that matter. I'm what people sometimes refer to as conservadox... So I've heard plenty of other Jews from the stricter forms of the faith call me "Not really Jewish" as well. So Catholics aren't the only one's who will think someone isn't really Jewish just because they appear more secular.

As for the mom's phone call- I didn't understand what the big deal was. Most of the women I know would've been honored by this. But then again most of the women I know are Jewish. His mom called her so that means A)- this guy told his family about you and B) this relationship was seen important enough by his mom that she called you expecting to be able to get to her son that way!

"I asked my boyfriend ... and told him I didn’t want this kind of involvement to be part of our relationship. When he talked to her about it, she exploded, yelling, “If she were Jewish, she’d understand!” Well, I kind of agree that a Jewish girl is more likely to understand this sort of thing. But no matter what your culture is why would you refer to a phone call from a mom asking for her son as "This kind of involvement" as if she had just come to your place and snuck into your bed in the middle of the night and whispered in your ear, "Is my son here. Can I talk to him?" That is not what happened. If you can't even take a little phone call's level of intimacy with the man's mother how can you expect to be asked to be a part of his family? I think the real problem here was that she was not ready for a serious relationship, but she doesn't quite realize this and therefore can't admit it.

"But why did they say it didn’t matter and then decide it did — and find partners who fit the description they said they weren’t actually looking for?" Because they probably believed that nonsense before you threw a hissy fit over getting a phone call and that woke them up to the fact that it actually mattered a lot to YOU. I'm sure there were lots of little things like this throughout the relationship that made him see the differences might be an issue.

I could point to more things in this article that shows this woman's complete lack of self awareness but for the sake of brevity will leave it at simply- Her faith, culture and autonomy are much more important to her than she is ready to admit and she's putting the blame on others because she genuinely doesn't know herself yet. I don't hate her for it. I've blinded myself in similar ways before on other life matters. I'm sure we all have. I hope she learns from all this, but she comes across as unsure of what she really wants or needs in a relationship and that's not good even when you and your SO come from the same background... let alone different ones.
posted by fantasticness at 9:47 AM on April 19, 2018 [4 favorites]

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