Reminds me of Ask vs. Guess culture all over again
April 5, 2018 5:24 AM Subscribe

When You Can and Cannot Say ‘No’ When Someone Asks to Switch Seats With You on an Airplane "This, in a nutshell, perfectly encapsulates the fraught social dynamics of making and fielding a request. A person asked to switch seats often feels obligated to say yes for fear of being rude, even when it means a more unpleasant flying experience. But making such a request can itself be construed as rude."

"Duane Pickering, a 58-year-old flight attendant from Milwaukee, agrees, saying it’s entirely within a passenger’s right to decline an offer. “It’s up to them, really. It’s their seat, they paid for it, and if they don’t want to move, they don’t have to,” he says.
But as Roscoe and Del Rey articulate, there’s still considerable social pressure on the person to say yes. It’s hard to look a person in the eye and tell them no, you will not let them sit next to their loved one or their small child, even if it means wedging into the middle seat, in the back row of the plane, between two meaty dudes who have already established dominion over your armrests.
Not to mention, Masterson says she’s seen some passengers get noticeably angry and start swearing when their request for a seat change is rebuffed. “I’ve had to step in and say, ‘Ma’am that’s their seat, and they don’t have to change,’” she says."

posted by jenfullmoon (246 comments total) 15 users marked this as a favorite

Its much easier on airlines where you have to pay for selecting any particular seat. Nobody expects you to give up the premium you paid.
posted by infini at 5:26 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

Oh boy, I predict a 500-comment thread. Flying brings out people's inner rage.

the couple didn’t even talk to each other

Sometimes it's not about talking. There are people who just plain don't want to sit next to a stranger. Also, you can lean on your partner, and you can share the arm rest with arms touching without it being weird. Finally, last time I flew I was in just this situation. I was a little miffed but accommodated the couple, and then I saw the guy throughout the flight just white-knuckling and deep breathing his way through it, and realized he was terrified to fly and his wife wanted to be there to calm him. Some people are flying to a funeral. Some people have PTSD. So who knows.

I'm passionate about always booking an aisle seat and reluctant to give it up, but I don't want to be a jerk. I think I'll take a tip from this article to say I'm willing to switch seats if the attendant could arrange a switch to another aisle seat.

I never got a cocktail or upgrade for offering to switch, though. I might wangle for that next time I agree to do this.
posted by Miko at 5:31 AM on April 5, 2018 [48 favorites]

Only if I'm going up front. You want me to take a middle seat? Aww hell naw.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 5:38 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

I am willing to switch if it puts me in a similar seat to the one I am giving up, but I would never take a middle seat for someone else unless I was the only person who could possibly make the switch and the alternative was to leave a young child separate from their parents. I always pay extra for advance seat selection if that option is available, so I don't see any reason to give up my good seat to someone who didn't.

On most airlines, unless there are extenuating circumstances, there was an option somewhere along the way for people to pay a bit more money to ensure they would be able sit together. That might be different in a last minute emergency flight or in a situation where they were rebooked or the aircraft was changed last minute.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:39 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

The look of disbelief on the face of people who thought you'd be afraid of saying "no" is so sweet.
posted by thelonius at 5:40 AM on April 5, 2018 [63 favorites]

Unless it's a parent, a very polite nope.
posted by Beholder at 5:40 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

I asked to switch seats with the airline's CEO to make everyone's flights much less shitty, but he, uh, said no.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:41 AM on April 5, 2018 [14 favorites]

This is why I love the window seat (and, for that matter, economy plus when available). Bulkhead to lean against, no getting up when someone else needs to pee, and much less likely than the aisle to be asked to swap. Also, sunglasses and big ANC headphones on as soon as I sit down. I’m not sure I would have the stones to say no in the moment, but as far as I can remember, I’ve never been asked.
posted by supercres at 5:46 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

More than once did people switch to enable my brother and I to sit with our mom on transatlantic flights when I was a kid, so I kind of feel I have an obligation to switch. I've never been asked to swap anything but like for like.
posted by hoyland at 5:46 AM on April 5, 2018 [9 favorites]

Maybe I look unfriendly, but I have almost never been asked to move seats. Maybe a couple of times, over decades of flying, but not nearly enough for it to be a "thing" for me.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:49 AM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

This is not complex. If you don't want to switch, say no.
posted by rdr at 5:50 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

The whole business of paying extra to pick your seat is just one of the many scams involved in air travel, if you ask me. It should just be first come first served—pick a seat from whatever's left at the time you check in, or don't state a preference and get randomly assigned. All this "pay to go to the front of the line" stuff in flying is just the worst parts of American society writ small.

If I can improve someone else's flying experience while not majorly impacting my own, I'll do it. In fact, I've proactively asked people if they want to switch, if I see that my seat is separating them from a travel companion. Even if I'm taking a middle seat, it reduces the aggregate amount of misery on the plane because each middle seat generates the same amount of misery regardless of who sits in it, while being separated from a loved one generates additional misery that can be avoided with a seat swap. It's better for everyone when we all cooperate.

Mostly though I just absolutely abhor everything about flying and so if I'm there at all I've already steeled myself to endure pretty much infinite indignity and outrage. Compared to having to partially disrobe and have my body and personal belongings searched by government goons, accepting a middle seat so that people can sit with their loved ones is small potatoes.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:50 AM on April 5, 2018 [51 favorites]

Passengers should be similarly polite when declining to trade, explaining that they need the extra legroom and are uncomfortable in a middle seat.

I think it's unfortunate that a writer who is attempting to shape people's expectations about what's appropriate in this situation is claiming that someone who has been asked to change their seat should provide an explanation if they refuse the request. The suggestion here is that it would be somehow impolite to simply say "no," but I don't think that's the case.
posted by layceepee at 5:51 AM on April 5, 2018 [22 favorites]

Usually I don't mind changing if I'm travelling by myself, but I said no once when the guy had been sitting next to me for 15 mins and waited until the plane was almost full to ask. By that stage, there was no way I could move my luggage with me and would have been stuck trying to battle my way back to my bag at the end of the flight. The other guy in my row who turned up just after they asked swapped, and the couple spent the entire trip making passive aggressive comments about how nice he was for swapping. Lucky it was a short flight.
posted by Kris10_b at 5:54 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

That said, the valets who steal huge swathes of existing parking spaces at the airport or restaurant so that they can charge you for the privilege of parking there? Fuck those guys and the restaurants that hire them.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:54 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

I hate flying. Not being in the air, but the shit at the airport. I hate having my shit gone through, hate being scanned, hate the idea that I might get singled out for a more thorough "enhanded putdown" and having my junk grabbed because it was just my dumb luck. I even have the pre-check crap, but I abhor the TSA and security theater. I despise having to take off my belt and shoes. Think it's fucking ridiculous I have to throw away my coffee before boarding. I feel like a member of a nation of mewling cowards every time I have to go through security. One asshole tries to build a Get Smart bomb and suddenly our solution is to take off our shoes? This makes as much sense as expecting Parkland students to wear clear backpacks because someone shot up their school with a fucking rifle! I could go on, but needless to say, I am never in a good mood by the time I get sat in my seat. I generally think this shows, because I've never had someone ask me to switch seats. I think the expression on my face lets people know I would just as soon defenestrate them at 20,000 feet than accommodate their request.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:55 AM on April 5, 2018 [70 favorites]

I've both given up my seat for someone else and had people give me their seat before. I'm usually good at finding an aisle seat somewhere so that the person giving me their aisle seat doesn't feel like they're trading down though.

In one case, I was asked if I would be willing to move closer to a sick toddler because two parents were traveling with a baby that was prone to getting sick and were really worried about the risk of infection. (This was in the bulkhead row so they were all nice seats, including mine.) I didn't really mind trading one aisle bulkhead seat for another and honestly I thought my risk of infection from whatever the sick toddler had was about the same whether I was three seats away or one seat away. And I also have a fairly high tolerance for disruption from children so I didn't really mind being closer. Most people I tell this story to think I was nuts for being willing to trade though.
posted by peacheater at 5:55 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

I will always, always switch seats to unite families, even if it is an aisle to a middle, because I remember being a single mom having to fly with a kid for mandatory custody swaps during the divorce, and having to wait until I could afford the flight to book it, and the airplane would put me and my two year old separately sometimes, and everyone was always, always nice and I will be forever grateful.
posted by corb at 5:55 AM on April 5, 2018 [76 favorites]

Everybody gets the same amount of time—24 hours per day. Not everybody has the same amount of money. First-come-first-served isn't perfect, but it's much fairer than pay-to-cut-in-line.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:57 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

Then you're just paying with your time

Yes, and it's a far better system, because time is equally distributed and so things function the way that markets are alleged to in economics textbooks, i.e., the amount of time spent is a signal indicating the value the person receives, and the people to whom specific seating arrangements are most important get their seating arrangements and the rest of us sit wherever. In the current system, rich people to whom the extra cost is meaningless always get the best seats regardless of how much they actually care about them, and everyone else gets the dregs.
posted by enn at 6:01 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

Everybody gets the same amount of time—24 hours per day. Not everybody has the same amount of money. First-come-first-served isn't perfect, but it's much fairer than pay-to-cut-in-line.

Are you arguing that free time isn't a class issue?
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:02 AM on April 5, 2018 [54 favorites]

Yeah, I'm side-eying those who wouldn't do it for families (at least for kids under the age of ~13). Flying with kids is hard enough, and booking seats together can be impossible sometimes.

For adults - if it's an equivalent seat, eh, seems like a fair way to increase overall utility and it gives me a nice do-gooder boost. If it's a seat downgrade, I'd do it for a shorter flight, but I appreciate if they'd acknowledge the sacrifice by at least offering a snack box or a movie or something. Etiquette definitely dictates that the person doing the asking should finagle it so that they're giving up their better seat, if applicable.
posted by mosst at 6:03 AM on April 5, 2018 [10 favorites]

The person who wouldn't change seats so I could sit with my nephew on the way home from my brother's funeral was well within her rights, and then she tried to chat with me and be buddies, and nah.
posted by theora55 at 6:03 AM on April 5, 2018 [22 favorites]

Pope Guilty, come on. Of course free time is a class issue, but it's not as much of a class issue as disposable income. If you have a fairer system I'm here for it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:05 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

Everybody gets the same amount of time—24 hours per day.

You're just trading one allocation of scarce resources for another. Not everybody has the same amount of free time. There's a reason why money is the preferred medium of exchange; it allows for the most efficient allocation of scarce resources. Someone that doesn't have free time can't always reallocate it (particularly if there's a job involved), but someone can choose to reallocate funds to prioritize.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:05 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

I generally say yes (and I get asked a fair amount, I think because I often fly alone and am a small woman who seems unthreatening, and a lot of solo travelers are dudes in business suits who seem more likely to say no/ yell at you), but I can't remember ever being asked to switch to a dramatically worse seat. I'm probably insufficiently assertive about things like this, but I'm also pretty clear that I fly on easy mode, as a small person with short legs, and it's a small thing I can do to improve other people's flying experience.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:05 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

Pope Guilty, come on. Of course free time is a class issue, but it's not as much of a class issue as disposable income. If you have a fairer system I'm here for it.

I mean, I think Southwest has the best one of all. Everybody get in line.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:06 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

I refused to switch seats last week because the bins by the seat she wanted me to switch to were already full, and it's a serious pain to get your suitcase when it's 8 rows back; you basically have to wait for everyone else to get off the plane.
posted by JanetLand at 6:07 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

I'm honestly having trouble working out the logistics on how this even worked. How does switching from an aisle seat to a middle seat put two previously disconnected people together? Are they counting "across the aisle from one another" as "together"?

Two people traveling together are in random middle seats, say 6B and 8B. If 6C, the aisle, switches with 8B, the middle, then the two people traveling together are now sitting next to each other.
posted by jeather at 6:07 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

Oh, I always do it so someone can be with their child. But couples or friend groups who can't bear to be apart for 90 minutes don't really give me that same sense of obligation.
posted by thelonius at 6:07 AM on April 5, 2018 [19 favorites]

I mean, I think Southwest has the best one of all. Everybody get in line.

Except for the manifest destiny schmucks who get in early and try to stake out a whole row for their group that invariably shows up right before the doors close.
posted by dudemanlives at 6:09 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

Notice how rarely seat switchers are offering to trade their aisle or window seats for a middle? I wonder why that is?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:09 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

My best friend was telling me a story of how him his wife and kid were flying for a vacation. Their kid was small and they didn't get a seat for him, but instead booked their seats with an empty seat between them. They figured that anyone who got that seat would move somewhere else and they could then use it themselves. It didn't work out as planned and the person who got the middle seat didn't want to move anywhere else so they were forced to sit apart from eachother with their kid on their laps for the whole flight. It was a funny story when told after the fact.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:10 AM on April 5, 2018 [10 favorites]

I even have the pre-check crap, but I abhor the TSA and security theater. I despise having to take off my belt and shoes.

Ironically, I find people who take their shoes and belt off in the Pre☑️ line absolutely infuriating. You don’t have to take your shoes off here! Why did you even bother with Precheck! Stop wasting my time!
posted by mr_roboto at 6:11 AM on April 5, 2018 [22 favorites]

This is just one of those class-warfare items where airlines would prefer we fight amongst ourselves rather than offering seating policies (and adequate seating) that actually benefit their customers.
posted by blue_beetle at 6:11 AM on April 5, 2018 [44 favorites]

A friend told me about how she was at a window seat, and the lady in the window seat in the row behind her asked to change to be next to her partner. My friend agreed, and then the guy who ACTUALLY had the window seat showed up, the lady in the window seat really had a middle seat and was being a monster.

My friend apologised to the guy in the middle seat and told the lady that she needed her seat back now.
posted by jeather at 6:11 AM on April 5, 2018 [66 favorites]

A lady once pissed in her seat on an airplane and then tried to get my husband to switch places with her. The moment of urination had escaped his notice, so he didn't know why everyone else was refusing to swap, or why all the passengers seated around her were furiously shaking their heads at him as he approached, but some combination of her shifty expression, the smell, and the humidity tipped him off before the deal was done. I'll still trade seats, but now I require a cover letter and background references.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 6:12 AM on April 5, 2018 [54 favorites]

Except for the manifest destiny schmucks who get in early and try to stake out a whole row for their group that invariably shows up right before the doors close.

That and the people who blatantly cut way ahead in the line and the gate attendants don't give a fuck and let them do it, which has been my experience in like a dozen Southwest flights.

I go out of my way to not fly Southwest, because I follow the rules and invariably a bunch of other people don't and nobody stops them and basically I fucking loathe the whole experience of watching people flout rules in front of me and get rewarded for it.
posted by tocts at 6:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [25 favorites]

I travel a lot for work, and generally accommodate people who ask the switch. When I'm asked, it's generally to make things easier for families with children. I'm happy to do that.

Recently, however, I was on a work trip and had prebooked the aisle, as I always do. The Junior guy in a suit climbed into the middle seat next to me and said: "I suppose you think you need the aisle seat, right?" He got to stay in the middle seat...
posted by frumiousb at 6:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [18 favorites]

I mean, I think Southwest has the best one of all. Everybody get in line.

Except that's not what Southwest does at all. Business Select passengers pay extra to get positions in the A group, and Southwest always holds back positions A1 through A15 to sell to you at the gate for $40 a pop.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:15 AM on April 5, 2018 [12 favorites]

Nope. Ain't gonna happen. I get the window seat for a reason. Sorry.
posted by Splunge at 6:16 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

Oh, I always do it so someone can be with their child. But couples or friend groups who can't bear to be apart for 90 minutes don't really give me that same sense of obligation.

I'm overweight and have issues with feeling like I'm invading other people's personal space at the best of times. If I have to sit next to a stranger, I'll deal, but I find that I much prefer to be squished next to someone I know. From what I can tell, this is a pretty common occurrence with larger people. It's not about not being able to bear to be apart, it's about calming pretty common anxieties.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:16 AM on April 5, 2018 [20 favorites]

That and the people who blatantly cut way ahead in the line

I was just flying through the Atlanta airport and a dude tried casually stroll-merging into the huge security line just as it was leaving the atrium and moving into the hallway approaching the maze before the lines. Then when the TSA guy busted him he tried to just do the same thing a little farther back and had to be loudly instructed to go to the END OF THE LINE. Honestly a person who deserves the piss seat.
posted by thelonius at 6:19 AM on April 5, 2018 [16 favorites]

"This, in a nutshell, perfectly encapsulates the fraught social dynamics of making and fielding a request.

What I admire most about these kinds of pieces is the way the writers can spin out a couple hundred words on an interaction many people understand instinctively. #freelancelife #influencer
posted by octobersurprise at 6:19 AM on April 5, 2018 [12 favorites]

All this "pay to go to the front of the line" stuff in flying is just the worst parts of American society writ small.

The notion of "status" while traveling is some kind of huge blinking indicator of America's obsession with, or envy of, old world class-based society.

Boarding by "status" groups creates hundreds of collisions and delays as passengers stumble past and wiggle around each other. I very much miss the old days when they boarded planes from back to front. Nice and tidy. Boarding took about half the the length of time it takes now.

Today American Airlines has eleven different boarding groups.
posted by rokusan at 6:25 AM on April 5, 2018 [25 favorites]

Flying brings out people's inner rage

In a previous job, for a while we were doing a fun team-building exercise every week where we'd ask a semi-related but low-stakes question in an Outlook poll, then later in the week open the group meeting by presenting the results. We're in an industry that requires fairly regular air travel, so after it had briefly come up in a side meeting, we polled the group on whether they recline or not when flying.

That was the last poll we ever took. It's been at least six years, most of us have moved on to other jobs either in the same company or elsewhere, and some of the fights spurred by that poll are still ongoing.
posted by solotoro at 6:27 AM on April 5, 2018 [41 favorites]

Boarding by "status" groups creates hundreds of collisions and delays as passengers stumble past and wiggle around each other. I very much miss the old days when they boarded planes from back to front. Nice and tidy. Boarding took about half the the length of time it takes now.

I bet the opposite is true. Now the planes are scatter sorted, with the plane filling up roughly evenly across the cabin. Before, there was lots of congestion as ALL the people in a set of rows were trying to put away their bags and sit down all at once.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:29 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

Notice how rarely seat switchers are offering to trade their aisle or window seats for a middle? I wonder why that is?

Because if the seat switchers had paid enough or checked in early enough to get an aisle seat or a window seat, they would have been able to get the middle seat (which fill up last) next to it and they wouldn't be having this problem. People who can't/won't pay or who check in late end up in separate middle seats, and only a window or aisle next to one of them will put them together.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:30 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

Business traveler here. I always trade seats for families. I've never asked a fellow passenger to switch; I have asked flight attendants if I could move into empty seats.

I've never been rewarded by flight attendants for making a switch.
posted by doctornemo at 6:31 AM on April 5, 2018

I was unexpectedly moved a few weeks ago when, flying solo as a male, I ended up seated next to an unaccompanied child. This is apparently not allowed in US society. (A solo woman replaced me.)

Moving was not a problem for me, because every seat on US airlines is an awful seat, anyway, so why complain about the specifics of torture. What I didn't love were the glares from being red-lettered as some sort of child rapist on spec, mainly because, you know, the airline chose these seats for both of us in the first place, so maybe should have not done so in the first place, if they were going to make a scene of it later?
posted by rokusan at 6:31 AM on April 5, 2018 [31 favorites]

I agree with rokusan about the insane status games run by US airlines. Gold, ruby, silver, platinum - I'm waiting for the whole table of elements to make an appearance.

When I explain gamification to people, and they don't grasp the idea, I mention air travel. Then everyone understands. It's the world's worst multiplayer game.
posted by doctornemo at 6:32 AM on April 5, 2018 [15 favorites]

I'm tall, and I had a blood clot in my leg three years ago (I'm fine now), so I really don't want to be cramped. I pay extra for additional legroom, and I prefer an aisle seat so that I can get up periodically on long flights. I'm not going to move unless I can move to an equivalent seat.

(Fortunately, families with children tend not to want or need extra legroom, so I've never been asked to move.)
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 6:34 AM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

Like any social interaction, the whole process of asking to change seats, or declining if you really want to, can go smoother if everyone is polite about it.

I have only made a request to change seats once; I was booked on a flight from Berlin to JFK that had a connection in London, and I would have to change airports and had only 4 hours to make the connection. I was booked on the middle seat from Berlin to London, but was counting on making it since I had carryon luggage. But the lady at the gate made me check my bag, so I was nervous.

When the woman in the aisle seat took her seat, I very politely and meekly asked if we could switch seats, explaining my predicament; I also assured her that my request was a favor, and she was under no obligation to comply. She just as graciously and politely declined - explaining that ordinarly she would have done, but she had just had foot surgery and was afraid she wouldn't do well being cramped up in the middle seat. She said she was sorry she couldn't help me, though. "Oh, you absolutely should stay in the aisle in your case!" I gushed, "you'll be much more comfortable."

"I'll tell you what I will do, though," she said, brightly. "I can stand up right away and let you get on your way before me. Would that do?"

"that would certainly help, thank you!"

She did just that, wishing me luck as I dashed past. And I did make my connection. But - she didn't think any less of me for asking, and I didn't think any less of her for declining, and everyone was happy.

And sometimes saying "yes" to a seat switch benefits you in other ways - a young couple on a plane had seats with one next to me and one in the row just ahead of us. They asked if I wouldn't mind switchng seats so they could sit next to each other; I said sure. Then about 20 minutes into the flight I got a message from them on the inflight chat saying that they wanted to buy me a drink to say thank you.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:35 AM on April 5, 2018 [39 favorites]

As a family with two young kids, we always book the level of flight that lets you choose seats in advance, but I think there's a psychology to how people choose seats that works against us. My parents live in an area served by a very small airport, and picking seats for a recent flight (booked 3.5 months out) led me to the following scenario:

Plane with two-seat rows on either side of the aisle
One row with two seats open seats remaining (which I snagged for one parent + toddler)
A whole bunch of rows with one seat open, mostly window, but some aisle

There is no chance in Hades that this flight will not be 100% full, featuring increasing incentives for people to bump for other passengers (and anyone who's made this trip in this season will know that). But it's clear that at least some of these people picked the window (or aisle) seat in a row that was open, instead of the window seat next to an aisle that was already booked--I think there's just something more inviting and open-seeming about picking that seat with an open seat next to it, even if the person knows there's almost no chance it will stay open.

(I suspect we'll be able to swap to keep our 7 year old with the other parent because it's a short flight and we'll be offering like for like, just one row off. But this is my perpetual stress dream about flying with kids--getting separated and having to beg people to switch. Not all the flights we book have a pay to pick your seat option.)
posted by pinwheel spark at 6:35 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

cjorgensen: I hate flying. Not being in the air, but the shit at the airport.

So very much this!

The security theater sucks. Any expression of mild displeasure gets you flagged as being a troublemaker. A screener needed to pat me down. He mumbled his request as he stuck his hand down my pants. I protested. A supervisor walked over and asked what was up. Screener's coworker said I had an attitude the entire time (so what?).

Having to arrive early (2 hours is recommended sucks). It elongates the trip by that much. Plus, having to take several modes of transportation to get from your car to the gate.

Walking behind someone who is oblivious to their rolling luggage fishtailing.

Cramming into a seat on the plane.

Unless driving is significantly longer, I drive.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:37 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

On my last flight, I found myself beside an elderly lady who didn't speak English. Her thirty-something daughter helped her with her seatbelt and then returned to her distant seat. Some time after takeoff, she walked back to stand in the aisle for another chat. I interrupted to ask the daughter (in English) if she wanted to swap seats with me. Her eyes widened in alarm and she gave a sharp shake of her head, then immediately started telling her mother a long distracting anecdote to ensure she didn't ask what the nice gentleman had said.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 6:37 AM on April 5, 2018 [55 favorites]

This is not complex. If you don't want to switch, say no.

I suppose I could bring up the rabbit hole that is the ultra-Hasids refusing to sit next to women, and the airlines forcing the woman to change seats, but I'm kind of tired this morning.
posted by Melismata at 6:41 AM on April 5, 2018 [34 favorites]

7
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:46 AM on April 5, 2018 [33 favorites]

Notice how rarely seat switchers are offering to trade their aisle or window seats for a middle? I wonder why that is?

Sometimes when we are booking late enough to not find seats next to each other or booking separately because different schedules mean we only share part of the itinerary, my partner and I will just grab our respective preference (her window, me aisle) wherever we can in the plane. Then once we are there, I will ask my middle person if they want my partner's window seat, and/or my partner will ask her middle person if they want my aisle seat. Fifty percent of the time, works every time.
posted by solotoro at 6:47 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

We're in an industry that requires fairly regular air travel, so after it had briefly come up in a side meeting, we polled the group on whether they recline or not when flying.

I still think dark thoughts about the woman behind me who woke me up at three-ish in the morning (not sure exactly what time zone we were over) on a redeye 10? 12? hour flight across two continents to ask me to un-recline my seat. (Of course you don't have enough legroom! None of us has enough legroom! It's a fucking plane and nearly every seat is reclined, including the one in front of me, because it's the middle of the fucking night and we are trying to sleep! Also, you waited until several hours into the flight and my sleep to have this conversation instead of saying something when I actually reclined the seat and was awake?) It took me ages to get back to "sleep."
posted by enn at 6:49 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

I was just flying through the Atlanta airport and a dude tried casually stroll-merging into the huge security line just as it was leaving the atrium and moving into the hallway approaching the maze before the lines. Then when the TSA guy busted him he tried to just do the same thing a little farther back and had to be loudly instructed to go to the END OF THE LINE. Honestly a person who deserves the piss seat.

I was once driving back into Canada through one of the big borders on a long weekend, so like an hour wait, and some car "accidentally" drove up all the way to the front of the line like they didn't understand what was happening and tried to cut in. They had to back up, but way less far than I would have imagined. Behind my car, though, so I couldn't see if the customs people took their car apart like they deserved for being assholes.
posted by jeather at 6:50 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

I've only said no to a seat change request once. I prefer window seats, and I had booked a window seat on a transatlantic flight. There was a girl of about eleven years old in the aisle seat next to me, and when I arrived she signaled that she wanted me to switch with her mom who was in the aisle directly across from us.

Had it been a younger child, I would have done it with no hesitation. But eleven is certainly old enough to spend 6 hours 2.5 feet away from your mom, and I really wanted that window seat because it's the only hope I have of sleeping a little. I apologetically said no and probably butchered the Spanish word for "window." Later the attendants moved the girl next to her mom anyway in the middle section of the plane, so I didn't have to feel badly after all.

I have requested seat changes to unite my children and me, and no one has ever given us any trouble. Short of a health problem, I would never request a seat change on my own behalf.
posted by Liesl at 6:56 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

This discussion reminds me of when I was travelling with a broken foot, and because of delays and other airline / airport problems I ended up in a middle seat on a flight I hadn't planned. (I was travelling regularly at the time, I plan things well in advance, I'm 6'4", and I always go for the window seat.)

As I hobbled up the aisle to my row, I scoped out who was there to see if they'd be willing to accommodate me. And when I got there, I started to ask the guy with the window seat (who I remember as some mid-twenties douchebag) if he'd be willing to swap, and as I remember it he smiled and said "not a chance" before I could finish the question.

Looking back on it, I definitely could have and should have asked the flight attendants if they could find anyone willing to help, but instead I felt obligated to sit and spend the next few hours sitting next to someone who I thought deserved a swift punch to the crotch every 20 minutes, probably for his entire life.

Oh, and he had to get up to go to the restroom at least once, so that was extra fun for me. (A significant part of why I go for the window is I have no problem sitting there for the entire flight, feeling entirely out of the way.)
posted by cardioid at 6:57 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

really though who doesn't switch for separated families? what kind of idiot wants to sit next to an unaccompanied minor on an intercontinental flight.

i would offer to GET OFF THE PLANE, uncompensated, in those circumstances.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:57 AM on April 5, 2018 [10 favorites]

My friend apologised to the guy in the middle seat and told the lady that she needed her seat back now.

this woman should be prosecuted in the hague tbh
posted by poffin boffin at 6:58 AM on April 5, 2018 [13 favorites]

But eleven is certainly old enough to spend 6 hours 2.5 feet away from your mom

this raises the issue of children who are delighted to be in their own seat, away from their parent(s), like an adult, and have this ruined by us auto-yes-to-parents-sayers.
posted by thelonius at 7:00 AM on April 5, 2018 [16 favorites]

There's one flight I was on where I actually regret not having offered to switch seats, in fact. I usually favor the window seats because I like looking out the window ("ooh, cool, I can tell where we are") and was on a return flight from somewhere in Europe. It was sometime in summer, and seated all throughout the plane were a bunch of English college-age kids, all clearly part of the same big group of kids who were on their way to summer jobs as different camp counselors. One of them was in the middle seat next to me.

And as we approached New York, I was peering out the window, picking out landmarks - Fire Island, Montauk, and the like - and then I noticed that so were all the kids on the flight as well, crowding around windows and marvelling over the houses they were seeing. And the poor kid next to me was trying to do the same, trying to peer past me out the window without freaking me out. He did have a chance to get up and walk to a friend's window for a few minutes, but then had to get back in his seat for the landing.

I still sort of wish that when we had the chance, I'd offered to switch seats with him so he had the window.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:12 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

Ironically, I find people who take their shoes and belt off in the Pre☑️ line absolutely infuriating. You don’t have to take your shoes off here! Why did you even bother with Precheck! Stop wasting my time!

I'm so sorry -- that was me. I didn't even realize I WAS in Precheck. I think maybe they sent me there because I was traveling with my friend, who is like King of Precheck, and I hardly ever fly so I barely know what it is. I got out of the way to put my shoes back on though.
posted by JanetLand at 7:12 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

I'll switch for families that are separated, sure. Unaccompanied minors definitely throw a wrench in the works, though... part of me is surprised that one of the airlines hasn't figured out that they can reverse-auction the seat next to the unsupervised kid. Place your bids with the flight attendant, folks... lowest bid sits next to the sullen kid for the flight, highest bid pays lowest bidder for the misery.
posted by Mayor West at 7:12 AM on April 5, 2018

What's with all these kids seated separately from their parent(s)? Is this a thing on American airlines? Around here I've been given the strong impression that they just plain won't seat your separate from your small child. I'm having a hard time conceiving of how this actually plays out. They just put a 5 year old in a random seat on the plane and are like, "lol, have fun!"? Or the idea is that they just force someone to switch seats if no one does voluntarily and make it the flight attendants'/passengers' problem instead of figuring that shit out ahead of time?
posted by ODiV at 7:13 AM on April 5, 2018

I suppose I could bring up the rabbit hole that is the ultra-Hasids refusing to sit next to women, and the airlines forcing the woman to change seats, but I'm kind of tired this morning.

I'M NOT AND THIS WILL HAPPEN TO ME OVER MY DEAD BODY

ideally they will then be forced to sit next to my dead body for the rest of the flight
posted by poffin boffin at 7:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [58 favorites]

Come to think of it, I can come up with all sorts of ghoulish ways to pit airline passengers against each other for the airlines' gain. CFO of United Airlines, you've shown that there is literally no depth of human misery that you won't plumb to make an extra buck; call me!
posted by Mayor West at 7:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

Nobody reclines and nobody gets hurt.
posted by rokusan at 7:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [10 favorites]

on a prearranged signal from the captain or purser, EVERYONE reclines simultaneously, aside from the last aisle which cannot recline. those seated in that aisle get an upgrade certificate which is valid for at least business class on any airline of their choice for any flight at any time in the future, by LAW, a violation of which is a capital crime.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:17 AM on April 5, 2018 [11 favorites]

What's with all these kids seated separately from their parent(s)? Is this a thing on American airlines? Around here I've been given the strong impression that they just plain won't seat your separate from your small child. I'm having a hard time conceiving of how this actually plays out. They just put a 5 year old in a random seat on the plane and are like, "lol, have fun!"?

Yes, this is totally a thing on American airlines, and when I have asked flight or gate attendants for help resolving it, I have more often than not been told it's not their job and I should just ask around until I find someone willing to switch.
posted by Orlop at 7:18 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

If I am going on vacation with someone, I am likely to be delighted to have 2-6 hours to myself(ish) to read without ever having to pretend to want to talk. Neither of us need a middle seat that way.
posted by jeather at 7:18 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

I did have a man once refuse to swap a near-identical seat with me (my 3B for his 3C, or something, both aisles, just on opposite sides of plane) so I could sit with my travel-mate in the window seat. (Last minute tickets, couldn't get seats together.)

But no. ("No. This is my seat and I want it.")

I was kind of shocked, since I couldn't think of any sane reason, but I couldn't really think of an argument, either, since I had no real entitlement to it, after all. As many MeFites will testify, I am not speechless often, but that one silenced me.

My flying companion and I spent the 3 hour flight making funny faces at each other, across him. We still quote him often.
posted by rokusan at 7:19 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

Don't worry, though, ODiV: US alrlines won't ever separate you from your large, smelly, shedding and yapping dog.

Only from your children.
posted by rokusan at 7:22 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

We've only asked to trade seats once, and that was because the middle seats on the plane couldn't accommodate a cat carrier due to the entertainment system. That was after my husband spent hours on the phone with the airline trying to make we'd booked appropriate seats. So we had to find someone who'd switch out their aisle or window seat for a middle. I was a little irritated that the flight attendant put it all on us ("If you offer to buy them a drink that can help!") because I thought if there was the buffer of a third party people would feel more comfortable declining. A very nice young woman behind our original aisle switched with us and also refused our offer of drinks/snacks/in flight entertainment. I still feel kind of crappy about it.
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:22 AM on April 5, 2018

I'm guessing that seat switching is much more fraught lately than it used to be, given that many seats choices now charge an additional surcharge (for "extra legroom" at $17/inch and such). At least, I've noticed far fewer seat switch requests and general in-cabin adjusting lately (even on international flights)...maybe the flights I've been on lately have been full and in a hurry, but my experience now is that they board the plane and GO, no mussing and fussing and switching, etc.--get on, get in your seat, we're leaving. Which I appreciate very much.

Flying last weekend, five full flight segments total through my round-trip, I had one of only 2 or 3 empty seats next to me TWICE, which is exquisite luxury in the coach section, especially from my usual aisle seat, and zero seat change requests.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:23 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

Its much easier on airlines where you have to pay for selecting any particular seat. Nobody expects you to give up the premium you paid.

Incorrect!
posted by rodlymight at 7:23 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

On the one hand, I do think it's obnoxious to ask and I wish people wouldn't unless they absolutely have to. Which clearly they do or think they do. On the other hand, I think the article made a good point in addressing that even if you are in the right to say no, that doesn't mean someone won't lose their shit on you for doing so. And really, do you want to get in a fight with somebody? Is it worth it to have the seat you want? But that's me speaking as someone who has to manage everyone's crazy every day and at this point I'll put up with anything to get someone to go away and stop asking me.

And really, you can't just say "no." If you don't have a good explanation as to why, everyone thinks you're an asshole and remembers you for life, as seen in this very thread.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:29 AM on April 5, 2018 [11 favorites]

If I am going on vacation with someone, I am likely to be delighted to have 2-6 hours to myself(ish) to read without ever having to pretend to want to talk. Neither of us need a middle seat that way.

My wife and I have done this, basically saying that we see enough of each other already.

(Except when one of us wants to nap - it's nice to do that when you're sitting next to someone who doesn't mind you using them as a headrest.)
posted by madcaptenor at 7:31 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

I am sure I told this story last time this came up. I was once on a Southwest flight, happily in my aisle seat, when the last 2 people to get on the plane asked me to swap into a middle seat so they could sit together because they were on their honeymoon. I said no, because I got to the airport early so I could be in the B loading group and so no I'm not trading my aisle seat for a middle because you were late. (I didn't actually say all that, I just said "I'm sorry, but no.")

I have swapped seats so people could sit with their children. But I don't feel that sorry for adults who got on a plane at the last minute.
posted by interplanetjanet at 7:32 AM on April 5, 2018 [9 favorites]

I went through a phase where I was getting asked to switch and was assenting because it was the nice thing to do. After about three times I stopped because usually the asker then went on to demand more concessions and made me feel like a sucker.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:32 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

When I was flying solo with THREE small children, one of whom was a lap baby, on a 60-minute flight in a teeeeeeny airplane, the business bro in front of me reclined his seat right into my baby. The flight attendant saw (luckily) and asked him to sit up, and he refused because he "needed" to recline to be comfortable, BABY BE DAMNED (and she was a cheerful chattery baby, not a crying baby). She asked him if he would mind switching seats (we were in shitty seats near the back of the plane) and he refused because that was his seat and if I had a problem, I could move. Except that I COULDN'T move, because that would require three seats together for me and my under-7 children, and they'd have to be on the right side of the plane in certain rows (because lap babies are only allowed in certain sections of the plane, which have an extra oxygen mask specifically for lap babies).

Anyway, then she ordered him to move and instead of giving him a nice aisle seat near the front as she'd been going to do, she put him in a non-reclining seat in the very back row next to the bathroom, and I love her.

The bro was the only person on the flight who reclined; everyone else was like "we are on the tiniest plane in America and nobody's knees fit, reclining would be crazy rude."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:34 AM on April 5, 2018 [66 favorites]

As a woman I feel like I'm more likely to be asked to switch than random men are which makes me want to refuse just to be contrary sometimes; also, as a fat person who likes the few extra side inches a window seat affords I'm very reluctant to trade unless it's like-for-like.

I'm still salty about the time I was traveling from the US to Japan with two friends, and I had the window seat in the row directly behind their middle and aisle seats. The guy in their window seat refused to switch with me. I couldn't tell if he didn't really understand our request or was superstitious or just being a dick (or some combo of all above) but it mean that I spent 13 hours trapped by two men drank copiously yet who never once got up on their own volition and acted like giant assholes the two times I had to nudge them so they'd let me out for the bathroom.

In short: let friends sit together and you're less likely to be irritated by bathroom requests.
posted by TwoStride at 7:35 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

And really, you can't just say "no." If you don't have a good explanation as to why, everyone thinks you're an asshole and remembers you for life, as seen in this very thread.

Ok but I don't care if a stranger who doesn't know my name and who will never see me again thinks (not entirely incorrectly) that I am an asshole.
posted by jeather at 7:38 AM on April 5, 2018 [15 favorites]

each middle seat generates the same amount of misery regardless of who sits in it

This is not true. I am tall and claustrophobic, and I put in the time (booking as early as possible, searching for flights where I can reserve my seat) and sometimes money (if the only aisles left cost extra) to get an aisle seat so I don't have a panic attack on the plane. I would not trade my seat for anyone unless I could get another aisle.
posted by Mavri at 7:39 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

That airlines expect parents or caretakers to pay extra for the privilege of an assigned seat next to a small child or person otherwise needing assistance and that we have to rely upon the kindness of strangers in the absence of that extra dosh somehow encapsulates everything grotesque about US business practices, as well as the over-arching failure of our systems to afford dignity to the people they ostensibly serve.
posted by crush at 7:41 AM on April 5, 2018 [30 favorites]

I switched seats before for a mother to be with her child. The child ended up being taller than me with a puberty 'stache and I as I marched sullenly to my new middle seat at the back of the plane I could feel myself slowly turning into a sucker from the 1940s cartoons. I mean, there could have been {REASONS} I couldn't see, but yeah.

I still do it though. Never been rewarded because I think because I'm a woman I'm expected to.
posted by kimberussell at 7:43 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

What's with all these kids seated separately from their parent(s)? Is this a thing on American airlines?

There are UK airlines who will, it seems, purposely split up your party if you don't pay the premium to select seats. People have reported having their family split up only to get on the plane and find plenty of adjacent unused seats. Sometimes if you're travelling with children under 12, they will require you to pay the premium, to get adjacent seats. As if flying with kids wasn't hassle enough. Or, as I recently experienced, you'll pay the premium and find that there are no adjacent seats left to reserve. The airline told me before the trip they would sit us together but at the airport they said there was nothing they could do*. It was only a very helpful member of cabin crew and some generous passengers** that meant that myself (with a toddler on my lap), my partner, and our 6yo kid weren't all sat in different parts of the plane for 9 hours.

(* A lie, their T&Cs say they reserve the right to change seat assignments for any reason)
(** Who the cabin crew member said she'd spotted were not travelling together so didn't mind being split up)
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:47 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

I think the expression on my face lets people know I would just as soon defenestrate them at 20,000 feet than accommodate their request. -- cjorgensen

... are you... me?
posted by ChrisR at 7:52 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

On the other hand, I think the article made a good point in addressing that even if you are in the right to say no, that doesn't mean someone won't lose their shit on you for doing so. And really, do you want to get in a fight with somebody?

If you let people who lose their shit have their way, everyone learns to lose their shit to get their way.

If you aren't firm with toddlers, they'll never grow up.
posted by stevis23 at 7:52 AM on April 5, 2018 [23 favorites]

The bro was the only person on the flight who reclined; everyone else was like "we are on the tiniest plane in America and nobody's knees fit, reclining would be crazy rude."

May there be a special place in hell for the selfish idiots who recline in economy.

I don't care that you're tall or that you're tired or whatever your particulars are. I'm tall too, my husband is taller than you are (trust me) and we are parents of small children so we're tired too. Spare me your special snowflakes. Air travel in economy sucks for everyone.

I have been in Eyebrows exact situation, except without the helpful attendant and it was not pretty at all. It was not my proudest moment in life but to be fair it shouldn't be the proudest moment of the other party's life either. My husband, knowing that this issue is the one thing that will make me flip my shit and possibly ruin our entire vacation, has devised a brilliant solution. He books three seats together in the same row for me and the kids, and then he books the seat in front of me for himself. I don't mind being the person who has to wrangle the kids for the whole flight, and he doesn't stress about me being stressed. God help any person who would approach him and ask him to switch seats under those circumstances, because I would decline swiftly and loudly before he ever got a chance to open his mouth.
posted by vignettist at 7:57 AM on April 5, 2018 [17 favorites]

If you let people who lose their shit have their way, everyone learns to lose their shit to get their way. If you aren't firm with toddlers, they'll never grow up.

Is this the new election thread?
posted by rokusan at 7:58 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

Notice how rarely seat switchers are offering to trade their aisle or window seats for a middle? I wonder why that is?

Most of my switches have been that, or at least like-for-like. I'd say no if asked to give up an aisle seat for a middle but it just hasn't come up.

I have seen couples take aisle + window, presumably on the hope that they get lucky and no one grabs the now isolated middle seat. Then offer to switch when someone does take it.
posted by mark k at 8:00 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

A flight attendant asked my brother to switch once when we were on our way to Israel because there was a Haredi man who didn't wish to sit next to a woman, god forbid. My brother agreed, and I was pissed off at him for the rest of the trip.
posted by holborne at 8:03 AM on April 5, 2018 [11 favorites]

From what I can tell American Airlines is king of seat fuckery. My wife and I flew to Belize last year with our then 1.5 year old son. There were 4 flights in total (transfer in Miami). We had selected seats together for all of us, on every single flight our seat assignments had been changed, splitting us up. Our son being in a car seat required him to be placed in a window seat, according to their own policies, but the rearranged seats always had us on the aisle or middle seats. On one flight they had our son sitting by himself several rows away. Getting it straightened out was like pulling teeth.
posted by borkencode at 8:07 AM on April 5, 2018

May there be a special place in hell for the selfish idiots who recline in economy.

Why do the seats even recline at all, then? As it is they go back about 4" max. If I reclined my seat and the person behind me tapped me on the shoulder and said "hey you're crushing my infant" I would obviously be mortified and put my seat up again, but generally speaking I feel like they recline so that you can recline them. If you're in front of me and you want to get a little more comfortable, go for it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [15 favorites]

the secret weapon of my horrible gut means i can retaliate most foully to anyone who gives me a hard time on a plane and i'm not embarrassed about doing so. BRING ME YOUR FINEST CHEESES i will say grandly to the flight attendant, MAKE SURE THEY ARE QUITE RICH.

Bad news, the whole reason they serve those rich cheeses is because of how significantly flying dulls your senses of smell and taste for several reasons: Taste buds and sense of smell are the first things to go at 30,000 feet. You are probably not as offensive as you think you are - though knowing this, I did once sit next to someone who managed to make those of us around them miserable in just such a way for several hours, and I was as impressed as I was appalled, so maybe you are one of those lucky outliers.
posted by solotoro at 8:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

I have seen couples take aisle + window

I once spent a cross-country flight separated from my own traveling companion and trapped in the middle seat between such a couple, who not only didn't offer, but actually refused to switch either seat with me when I politely offered. Which would have been fine, except that instead of quietly enjoying their aisle and window paradises, they spent the whole time engaged in muted bickering and passing objects back and forth across me.
posted by mubba at 8:19 AM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

the offense comes not from the cheese but from my genetic inability to digest it without vast billowing clouds of horrifying gas
posted by poffin boffin at 8:19 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

You are probably not as offensive as you think you are

Nope, that title goes to teenaged boys, who by and large manage to reek in a way that even 30,000 feet doesn't dull.
posted by TwoStride at 8:21 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

This is not complex. If you don't want to switch, say no.

The only time I was ever asked to switch, the flight attendant insisted I do so. I didn't push her, because my traveling companion has a deathly fear of public scenes, but I didn't get the idea it would have done me much good.

It was on the second leg of a flight from Florida to New York, in a smaller plane. I have long legs, so when extra legroom seats aren't available, I usually spend a flight having my arthritic knees pummeled over and over again by the person in front of me slamming their body weight against their seat back. On this particular day, I still had a bruise on one knee from the flight down seven days earlier, some fresh bumps from from earlier in the day, and an unrelated case of walking pneumonia. Plus, my old hip fracture was giving me all kinds of grief.

So, when I saw that the middle seat of the back row was available to reserve, I jumped on it. We were all seated, and I was more comfortable then I'd ever been on a domestic flight, when the flight attendant came over and said she was going to have to have me switch with another passenger “because of the baby.” I wasn't quite sure what she meant, but I explained the situation with my legs. She said that she was sorry I wasn't quite sure what she meant, but I explained the situation was my legs. She said that she was sorry, but there was “nothing else she could do.” So, I folded myself into a window seat.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:22 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

My technique is to slowly slowly inch the reclining seat back by a few centimeters over the course of a half hour or so
posted by griphus at 8:23 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

Whenever I fly I always try to remember how much less bothersome it is than going by car, boat or wagon train. It makes the inconveniences much less so. I get that some folks travel a lot for business, but how many of those folks are paying their own money to be in that seat?

I have said yes, and i have said no. I have asked and been rebuffed, asked and been granted. None of the occasions were memorable.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:26 AM on April 5, 2018

I think because I'm a woman I'm expected to.

I figured out pretty early on with the aforementioned two-year-old situation that dudebros were the least likely to switch seats when requested, and women were the most likely to do so. So what I started doing was actually formally requesting the seat of these guys sitting next to me or my daughter, which usually resulted in them saying no and being jerks about it, and then a) someone else awesome would usually immediately offer and b) that guy was persona non grata with the flight attendants for the remainder of his plane flight which was GLORIOUS.

But I can see where some people just don’t have the emotional energy to be berated by dudebros about how women shouldn’t fly if they can’t afford to leave their children with someone, or whatever offensive rant they would go into.
posted by corb at 8:38 AM on April 5, 2018 [9 favorites]

Also at the time I never had the money to offer drinks but I always traveled with a full complement of like twelve books and would offer good interesting reading material to the switcher (this was before the seat TVs were everywhere) and people were largely excited.
posted by corb at 8:40 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

Just travel by wagon train or whatever.

You can tell it's the Intercontinental Shabbos Wagon Train because it makes every stop regardless of whether anyone is getting on or off.
posted by griphus at 8:44 AM on April 5, 2018 [25 favorites]

Seat reclining is a hot-button issue. It's just like tipping - it's a system everyone interacts with and everyone has an opinion and it becomes a proxy for larger ideas about individual rights and expectations and power dynamics.

Those interested in the various points of view will find them thoroughly hashed out previously on MetaFilter:

Is there an etiquette for reclining in the air?
"And I'm Going to Keep Doing It Until You Pay Me to Stop"
Plane Etiquette

And for fun: class warfare in the skies
posted by Miko at 8:45 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

May there be a special place in hell for the selfish idiots who recline in economy.

I don't care that you're tall or that you're tired or whatever your particulars are. I'm tall too, my husband is taller than you are (trust me) and we are parents of small children so we're tired too. Spare me your special snowflakes. Air travel in economy sucks for everyone.

I rarely recline on domestic flights (if I'm reclining it's usually so I can reclaim some tray table space from the person in front of me who put their seat in full recline) but does this disapproval of reclining extend to overseas flights? If you said to me "could you not recline your seat?" on a 10+ hour flight where most of the plane is trying to sleep, I would think you were crazy.
posted by Quiscale at 8:46 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

the aforementioned two-year-old situation

I'm still a little baffled by this separate seating thing. Like what if someone just says, "Okay, cool, thanks for the break. Let me know how the flight goes for my toddler?"
posted by ODiV at 8:47 AM on April 5, 2018 [16 favorites]

My technique is to slowly slowly inch the reclining seat back by a few centimeters over the course of a half hour or so

as though the seat reclines more than a few centimeters
posted by beerperson at 8:47 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

I have seen couples take aisle + window

A lot of times people do this in the hope that no one will book the middle seat. So just by being in that seat, you are already irritating them.
posted by Miko at 8:48 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

does this disapproval of reclining extend to overseas flights?

In my experience international flights are still mostly on larger jets and are roomier to start with. It's the domestic hoppers that are now so small that a reclined seat back is basically under your chin.
posted by Miko at 8:49 AM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

I figured out pretty early on with the aforementioned two-year-old situation that dudebros were the least likely to switch seats when requested, and women were the most likely to do so.

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I was asked to switch (although I am a dude, I am not a dudebro). I'm sure there's a lot of gender bias, implicit or explicit, going on in the requests. But I usually have an aisle seat as I am tall and inevitably have to go to the bathroom at least once per flight and perhaps no one wants my mediocre seat.

The basic trouble with air travel is that airlines are pretty much predestined to be unprofitable. For those of you who have slogged through a business strategy class the literal textbook example of Porter's Five Forces model is an airline and the conclusion is they'll always be running at breakeven. So they're going to cram people in. The best you can hope for is to play the system.

For United fliers I wonder if there's been an uptick in seat swap requests with the advent of United Basic class where seat preselection just isn't available and people either don't understand or do and are cheap and just hope for the best when it comes to sitting with kids or friends.

As far as reclining in economy goes, it's a sham. You don't get any extra leg room, it's not like your hips somehow move further back, just your shoulders. For redeye flights everyone needs to recline to sleep but otherwise it just doesn't get you anything. Except smacking into my knees and preventing me from watching TV so don't do it. My beef is that the seat backs aren't high enough as I am more upper-body tall so my head is always lolling around unsupported. For long flights I try every trick in the book to get business class - unfortunately the most effective trick is paying for it. :/
posted by GuyZero at 8:50 AM on April 5, 2018

I'm still a little baffled by this separate seating thing. Like what if someone just says, "Okay, cool, thanks for the break. Let me know how the flight goes for my toddler?"

Someone did that when my sister was I think 4, and actually the person who sat next to her played with her the entire time. I had suddenly gotten Very Sick on the first flight and my parents requested that someone next to me trade and the guy said he was too important and he had another flight after that anyways and blah blah blah, so, fine, and I ended up sleeping on his shoulder the entire flight because I was so sick he couldn't wake me up to move me. It was a weird vacation.
posted by jeather at 8:50 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

The whole point of taking aisle + window as a couple is because you're hoping nobody takes the middle. When I do this I do it as far back as possible - I figure the middle seats in the back of the plane are the last to go. But I always do it with the understanding that if that middle seat does end up occupied - because airlines have gotten so good at making sure that every plane is full - that that person in the middle seat is switching with me or my wife.

(Okay, they're switching with me. I've given up on getting not a middle seat when I'm traveling with her. It's okay, I love her.)
posted by madcaptenor at 8:51 AM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

In my experience international flights are still mostly on larger jets and are roomier to start with. It's the domestic hoppers that are now so small that a reclined seat back is basically under your chin.

Domestic flights in economy vary from 29" to 34" seat pitch which is a huge difference (like 17%!) and thankfully long-haul tends closer to 33-34" consistently. But yeah, at 29" don't move, don't even breath. You're Emily Blunt in The Quiet Place. And if you make any noise I will find you and eat you (or something)
posted by GuyZero at 8:53 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

United Basic

THIS FUCKING THING

We've been trying to travel more lately after not having traveled for years and years and every fucking airline now has their own eXXXtreme Economy ticket where you get to sit on the wing clutching your baggage and you can't fucking tell which kind of economy ticket is which without going through fifty pages of fine print.

We booked tickets to Italy recently and my wife had to take over the actual booking part (the division of labor is that she finds the tickets and I handle the booking) because after figuring out which ticket wasn't going to completely fuck us for twelve hours I stumbled into some issues with the booking system and was literally going to have a rage stroke or something.
posted by griphus at 8:54 AM on April 5, 2018 [13 favorites]

"I rarely recline on domestic flights (if I'm reclining it's usually so I can reclaim some tray table space from the person in front of me who put their seat in full recline) but does this disapproval of reclining extend to overseas flights? "

I don't even have a problem with it on longer domestic flights! But it did seem pretty ridiculous that this guy was Going To Recline on a 60-minute hopper flight on a teeeeeeeny little airplane. Like, you can suck it up for 60 minutes when the plane is so small that at 5'2", even my knees were hitting the seat in front of me! People on those planes are usually trying very hard to stay in their space and just get on and off the plane with a minimum of discomfort for everyone involved, like being on a too-crowded elevator.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:54 AM on April 5, 2018

this thread is good in that it is basically an 80s Seinfeld stand-up routine
posted by beerperson at 8:58 AM on April 5, 2018 [20 favorites]

Also for those who want to get an upgrade on the cheap, some frequent fliers like to make a little extra cash by selling their upgrades. People at work sell United GPUs (global one-class upgrades) for like $300! And that may seem like a lot, but the cost of a business class international ticket is a lot more than $300 more over economy so it's a heck of a deal if you can find one and get the upgrade.

Also I am flying SFO-FRA this weekend which is hardly the longest flight in the world, but at 12 hours please send hopes and prayers and possibly United GPUs.
posted by GuyZero at 8:59 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

As far as reclining in economy goes, it's a sham. You don't get any extra leg room, it's not like your hips somehow move further back, just your shoulders. For redeye flights everyone needs to recline to sleep but otherwise it just doesn't get you anything.

Well, yes, it gets me more comfort if I want to sleep on the plane. (Or if the person in front of me is reclining.) Sure on a 60 minute flight it isn't worth it, but on a 3-4 hour one it sure it.
posted by jeather at 9:00 AM on April 5, 2018

But it did seem pretty ridiculous that this guy was Going To Recline on a 60-minute hopper flight on a teeeeeeeny little airplane.

this is where you encourage your infant to put their moist sticky baby hands all over his face.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:02 AM on April 5, 2018 [12 favorites]

The whole point of taking aisle + window as a couple is because you're hoping nobody takes the middle. When I do this I do it as far back as possible - I figure the middle seats in the back of the plane are the last to go.

.....How often does this actually happen, though? There are a lot of people in the world, many of them need to travel. I think I've been on precisely three flights where the whole plane wasn't sold out.

(Although, heh; one of those flights was an international one, with a whole middle-of-the-plane row of four seats across in each row. I was in the aisle of that row on one side, and a single dude was on the aisle on the other end of the row. Little did we know, until the doors shot and we started taxiing for takeoff, that we were the only two people in the row. When we realized it, we looked up, looked at each other in surprise, then both burst into delighted grins and wordlessly moved our under-seat bags over to the middle seats, threw down the armrests that were hemming us in and slouched, giggling.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:03 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

Since we've had kids, I am always happy to make goofy faces at your little kid for the entire flight, plus whatever time we spend taxiing or parked on the tarmac. Happy children=happy fellow fliers.

Since I am tall enough (6'1") that every seat is always completely miserable always, I don't care where I sit because my knees jam your seat upright and my elbows are tucked awkwardly in between the armrests. As a result, I'll always swap seats to reunite people even if they aren't families. Then again, since I have kids of my own, I rarely travel without them, so I am almost never asked anymore. *shrug*

As I hunch, wedged into a Stress Position in coach class, I mostly spend them time reminiscing about flying on 747s in the 1980s (playing cards! Dinner rolls, and the gold foils lid on the veggie cup with your beef! Plastic wings for the kids!) and hey, remember that one upgrade to first class I got on a flight from BOS->MSP? Good times, good times. *a single tear rolls down my cheek and falls into my Starbucks coffee*
posted by wenestvedt at 9:04 AM on April 5, 2018 [13 favorites]

I've been that petite person in the aisle seat who refuses to switch with Middle Dudebro, and enjoys the schadenfreude of it the whole flight. Check in in advance and choose your own dang seat.

(FWIW: need aisle seat because I have panic attacks when hemmed in by men)
posted by ahundredjarsofsky at 9:04 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

Plastic wings for the kids!

Do they ever let little kids in to the cockpit anymore? I got to do that once when I was 6 and it was magical.
posted by griphus at 9:06 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

I think I've been on precisely three flights where the whole plane wasn't sold out.

This has varied a lot over time- back in ye olden days airlines were not as good at filling planes and I have been on some pretty empty ones. And it still happens randomly from time to time. On some routes it happens a lot - you can try to re-create the "Emirates economy class suite (patent pending)" for yourself. But for the average US domestic flight, it's probably full.
posted by GuyZero at 9:08 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

.....How often does this actually happen, though? There are a lot of people in the world, many of them need to travel. I think I've been on precisely three flights where the whole plane wasn't sold out.

Well, we've been married for four and a half years. If I had to guess we've probably flown thirty or so flights together.

It has literally never happened during our marriage. It did happen on the way to our wedding, though!

Make of that what you will.
posted by madcaptenor at 9:10 AM on April 5, 2018

the one time i moved for someone it was a tiny old lady whose spanish was so unusually (to my ear) accented that i only got about 2/3rds of her meaning and my understanding was that the lady she wanted to sit next to was her long lost sister who she had just now on this very flight found again for the first time in (many, idk) years and i was like wow ok i will sit between the two grumpy portly old men behind us i guess.

anyway she was a nun who wanted to sit next to a sister nun she'd just been to a boring nun convention with so they could dish on the american nuns. i was flimflammed by a basque nun.

on preview: i can tell u from personal experience that they let, uh, shall we say full-bosomed young ladies into the cockpit on iberia flights.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:11 AM on April 5, 2018 [28 favorites]

flying nuns, always causing mischief
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [18 favorites]

I've only ever asked someone to switch once. I was six months pregnant and very large, and I'd reserved an aisle seat but my flight was cancelled and I ended up with a window in first class. I asked the fellow next to me if he'd trade and he said no because he was claustrophobic. I was like "okaaaay, you might regret it though" and indeed he did because I went to the bathroom like six times during the flight and wasn't nimble enough to climb over him so he had to get up every time.
posted by potrzebie at 9:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

wedged into a Stress Position in coach class

please don't make actual torture jokes thank you
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:14 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

A lot of times people do this in the hope that no one will book the middle seat. So just by being in that seat, you are already irritating them.

Hah! I was made to be this middle man on my last overseas flight (no seats left by the time we got to check in (and that was not my fault either, I'm looking at you, unnamed family member who was dragging her ass to the airport)), and so I found myself between these dudebros at the window and aisle, who were part of a larger pack of dudebros.

They made their displeasure known in not-so-subtle ways and tried certain tactics to get me to move (but to where? -- there wasn't anywhere else, but they weren't concerned about that). However, as a veteran of many university Roommate Wars, I was immune to it all. Give me a guilt trip? Please. Fourteen years of Catholic school and MY set of parents -- you think anything you do is going to work? It was all pretty cute, actually.

So I slept very well. Them against my snoring, probably not so much.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:16 AM on April 5, 2018 [10 favorites]

When I went back to the US in 2010, a woman asked to switch seats because she didn't want the middle seat. I said no and refused to move. Someone sitting on the opposite seat moved and took her middle seat. She stared at me the entire flight.

That's some chutzpah right there. Nobody wants the middle seat - what makes her so special that she shouldn't get it just because she (boo hoo) doesn't want it?

I mean, I guess there's no harm in asking somebody in the event that you are sitting beside some sort of unicorn who hates aisles and windows and is silently clamoring for the chance to sit in the middle. But to be resentful of the person for not giving it to you? Bah.

When I am king, people like this will be physically removed from the aircraft at cruising altitude. So it is decreed.
posted by theorique at 9:18 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

Metafilter: flimflammed by a basque nun.
posted by theorique at 9:18 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

Not joking, thanks: I have to push my legs into position with my hands sometimes and can't move them for three hours. They cramp, and I can't squirm much less move them to restore circulation. When they fall asleep it's merciful, and standing to leave the plane is painful, weak-kneed pains-and-needles. Flying coach really sucks.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:21 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

Do they ever let little kids in to the cockpit anymore? I got to do that once when I was 6 and it was magical.

I got the wings, the cockpit visit, the whole deal once when I was a kid. It was magical. Never saw a grown man naked, though.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:21 AM on April 5, 2018 [19 favorites]

My rule is that you can only ask lone travellers to switch, and only if you are offering a seat of the same or higher value.
A good pattern when flying as a couple on a flight that may no fill up, is to book A & C. If you don't get an empty middle seat at B, you can still offer that person A or C and sit together.
posted by w0mbat at 9:25 AM on April 5, 2018

My cousin and her three year old were separated on a flight (last minute, so couldn't pick seats anyway) and the business guy sat next to the kid refused to move and was apparently very arsey. Cousin said it was pretty funny to shrug and start moving away only for her daughter to strike up the usual Paw Patrol pleasantries and hear a "Uh, actually..." from their direction.
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:26 AM on April 5, 2018 [28 favorites]

I switched seats once when I was a young woman and not experienced with flying, and it was a miserable experience and I swore to never do it again. And I have not. I don't get asked much any more, because my usual setup when I get in my seat is to immediately put on my headphones and try to get to sleep, and I think people know better than to disturb the fat grumpy middle-aged lady, but it happened last year. I said no, politely, because I had spent quite a lot of money for this first class window seat not at the bulkhead and did not want her bulkhead aisle seat. And she looked so sullen! The seats were one row separated and on different sides, so she was only about two feet separated from her travelling companion anyway, if being apart for a few hours was somehow traumatic to grown-ass adults. It was just a bizarre sense of entitlement.

I suppose in theory I might switch for the sake of a small child but if, and only if, it was to an identical or better seat. Otherwise, you are on your own. And I am perfectly capable of being charming for hours to any toddler I might get stuck with as a result, or ignoring them as it suits the disposition of us both, so that's not much of a threat to me. My friends' kids actually ask if I am coming over :)
posted by tavella at 9:27 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

every fucking airline now has their own eXXXtreme Economy ticket

* not as sexy as it sounds.
posted by rokusan at 9:27 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

* not as sexy as it sounds.

In 10 years you're gonna open a door at a BDSM club and inside is just a perfect re-creation of American Airlines new Mega$aver seating.
posted by griphus at 9:29 AM on April 5, 2018 [29 favorites]

i would not give up my first class window seat for anyone less than michelle obama, even barack could cool his damn heels in an aisle bulkhead
posted by poffin boffin at 9:30 AM on April 5, 2018 [20 favorites]

My blood pressure skyrocketed just from reading this thread.
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:35 AM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

I'm surprised no one has yet linked to David Sedaris' tale of airline seat switching
posted by Gortuk at 9:40 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

Also I'm very confused by all these tales of middle-seat schemers. I've done the "book the window and aisle seat, hope the flight is empty enough that no one takes the middle" thing. It's great when it works! But if someone does show up for the middle seat, you're supposed to offer to take the bad seat so you and your companion can sit together. A solo person in a middle seat is always happy to switch to a window or an aisle seat on the same row. But apparently some people just...want the middle seat person to move to a middle seat in different part of the plane?? That's completely crazy.
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:43 AM on April 5, 2018 [19 favorites]

What's with all these kids seated separately from their parent(s)? Is this a thing on American airlines?

The only time we were ever separated from our kiddo was on Alitalia. We had checked in and picked seats together online, but they gave us new boarding passes at the gate and all three of us were several rows apart from each other. The flight attendants seemed shocked that we actually wanted someone to switch, but we worked through the language barrier with the other passengers and figured it out. I laughed extra hard at the 30 Rock joke that 'in Manhattan real estate there are no rules, it's like check-in at an Italian airport."
posted by Rock Steady at 9:45 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

I once traveled in a seating arrangement that was two by two; a woman was seated in front of me with a toddler; I was seated beside her seven year old. Who was very talkative and quite sweet. Unfortunately what she wanted to be most talkative about was how happy she was to be moving to live with Grandma and Grandpa, because their mother was leaving their father, and they were all going to live an exciting new life. I tried to divert her, but she always returned to all the new things she could do now in this new life and how amazing it was going to be but she was still also going to see daddy from time to time and on and on and on. It must have been hell for the mother, and she did try to offer distractions, but nothing worked for more than a few minutes.

After the flight ended, the woman scooped up her child, gathered all the belongings, and we carefully shared no glances and no words. I felt for her. That flight must have been endless and there was no where for her to or I to ask for me to be moved, because the next person would just also hear the same story... Now I try to bring paper and pencils and ask them to draw things they will see on arrival when they start talking about where they are going.

I usually agree to move, unless there is some good reason not to (aisle seat when I was sick was necessary on a long flight once - there was no way I taking a window seat and risking being boxed in.) I feel for parents; they know people in general are already dreading them taking a seat near them, and they know that a child once in full flight is a Thing Not to Be Stopped.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 10:16 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

Reclining seats are a holdover from days when there was actually enough space to recline without bumping into the knees of the person behind you. Todays' seat sizes can cause serious health problems, even without assholery from the other passengers.

Planes also used to run at 60-70% capacity most of the time, instead of today's 90+%.

I am 5'2" tall; even someone reclining in front of me doesn't make me feel cramped. At worst, it changes how I have to hold my ereader. I try for window seats but don't care if I don't get one, and I am entirely unapologetic about cramming my fat self between two dudes in suits who thought they could claim aisle and window and be intimidating enough to discourage fat people from getting a row near the front.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:16 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

Yeah, I feel like a lot of people are taking good advice from the 70s and applying it to today in ways that don’t make sense. Like when planes were 70% full I never minded couples booking aisle and window and hoping no one sat in the middle, but that was also when anyone who did could just move to the other empty seats. Now when flights are overbooked it means that you’re the one forcing people not to be seated together just for gamification that doesn’t even work anymore anyway.
posted by corb at 10:30 AM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

I usually switch, but always roll my eyes at least inwardly at the people who can't be separated for a couple of hours.

I hate flying. Not being in the air, but the shit at the airport.

Unless driving is significantly longer, I drive.

For the last 10-15 years I will drive even if it is longer, it's got to be so significant that I just don't have time to drive.

we polled the group on whether they recline or not when flying.

If you recline you are a bad person. There's not any debate, and it doesn't really matter whether or not you see it. I will let most things go, and will not start or engage in a conflict over almost anything, but I have fought with people in front of me reclining. It is honestly the only thing I can think of where I have.
posted by bongo_x at 10:32 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

> Do they ever let little kids in to the cockpit anymore?

Yes, surprisingly. One of my kids was offered a cockpit tour some time in the last decade (I forget which kid and which flight). It was before takeoff.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:34 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

If God hadn't intended for us to recline airline seats, he wouldn't have given us airline seats that recline. #fite-me
posted by theorique at 10:36 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

I hate flying. Not being in the air, but the shit at the airport.

The airport is a perverse game with ever-changing rules that I try to play to win, politely. I hate the game, I try to not hate the players too much.

That plus the airport is the only place these days where I'll drink for no reason, heck, sometimes I drink at airports as an end in itself because what else are you going to do there. #airportbar
posted by GuyZero at 10:37 AM on April 5, 2018

I mostly fly Southwest and have never had anyone ask to switch with me. Pay the twelve bucks extra for the early boarding group (but not the extra for the Business Asshole First Fifteen Boarding Slots) and you have your choice of whatevever kind of seat you like - I’m an aisle girl, myself - and sometimes you’ll even get a first row seat. I really don’t miss all this scheming.

They also let people in wheelchairs and families on before ANYONE else.
posted by egypturnash at 10:37 AM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

I've only ever switched seats for others if it means I get an equivalent seat. I usually pick aisle, and a family once asked me if I could move to another aisle seat a few rows over to sit closer to a family member. I'm ok with that. However, I've been asked to switch to window and even fucking middle before, and I 100% respond with a firm and polite no.

Many years ago I attempted the "book aisle and window and hope middle is open" trick before, and it failed. Never going to do that again, because now in my experience flights are even more booked than they were before. My husband is tall and requires more room, and if we're not able to upgrade to a main cabin extra type seat, we both get aisles so we are both happy, but sit across from each other.

And finally, my biggest problem with Southwest seating (and boarding by group, for that matter) is that it only works when people follow the rules. I've seen enough people that try to weasel their way a few numbers ahead just to see if no one notices, like stand at B10 even though they are B20. If you have more than a handful doing this it just right fucks everything up if it's not checked that people are in their correct position. And for boarding groups, I've seen enough people try to bum rush ahead. I've seen gate checkers that will kick out people out if they are Group 5 trying to sneak in boarding during Group 1, but I have definitely seen gate checkers that don't give a fuck and it pisses me off.
posted by xtine at 10:40 AM on April 5, 2018

Here's my non-switch story: I was flying from Toronto to Miami on a very cheap flight. I had a middle seat. A dad had a 2.5 year old with him, and he had the window and the child had the aisle. I offered to switch with the child and he refused, put in his headphones, and feigned (or went to) sleep. I did end up entertaining the child.

I did poke once him to ask if I could share some chocolate with his child. He said yes. I happened to have one of those chocolate bars with the extra caffeine in them which I carry on flights in case I start to get a migraine, so I fed the entire thing to the child while we were in descent.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:42 AM on April 5, 2018 [79 favorites]

warriorqueen, that reminds me of the sign that I used to see in bookstores: "Unaccompanied children will be given espresso and a free puppy."

I don't want airlines to make life worse for families that they've separated, but anyone who goes out of their way to inflict childcare on strangers deserves the aftermath of those strangers trying to have a comfortable flight.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:46 AM on April 5, 2018 [15 favorites]

I felt bad about doing it afterwards, because I was a mom of a similarly-aged child at the time and I know the guy might have been dealing with some terrible life tragedy but...it was the end of two hours I was going to spend in blissful work travel peace that I spent toddler-sitting instead (toddler was actually pretty agreeable once the in-flight tv was up and going, despite lack of headphones), and I had not had any sleep the night before either, so...
posted by warriorqueen at 10:49 AM on April 5, 2018

Years ago I was flying from Madrid to Toronto. I'm scared of flying so I arrived extra early at the airport (three hours in advance) and requested a window seat near the back which made me feel safer for some reason. I had just finished travelling /studying in Spain for two months so my Spanish was fine. This was long before prebooking/electronic anything so I had tried to be as responsible as possible.

Not only did I discover when I boarded that I did not have a window seat, I was in the middle seat of the middle row of five seats near the front of the cabin. I started crying and panicking to the flight attendant. He actually did find someone to switch with me and I ended up in a row of three. To this day (25?) years later I am eternally grateful to the woman who took my seat. I sat next to her husband and it turned out that he had gone to school with my next door neighbour growing up (neighbours were like second family to me). To this day I can't believe that a youngish couple willingly split up to accommodate a scared person. The flight was seven hours so it was a big deal.

tldr: I owe someone a seat swap sometime because karma. However, twice I have let men who had no accommodations booked share first night hotel/hostel rooms with me rather than see them stuck (a 65 year old guy when I was 19, and a 22 year old guy when I was 36 - it was all fine - nothing untoward happened). Perhaps that counts towards airport/flying karma.
posted by biggreenplant at 10:58 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

The only time I have ever requested anything of a fellow-traveler, it wasn't even a seat change. I asked if the person in front of me would mind only reclining part-way, because his seatback was broken and I was literally unable to adjust my seatbelt because my arms were pinned. I was breathing on the dude, the seat pitch was so extreme. He screamed at me until I cried about how he'd PAID FOR THAT SEAT AND IT WAS HIS RIGHT HOW DARE I EVEN so... no. Nope. Never again, I vowed.

But: Traveling with my partner last summer we ended up having a hellish run of luck: all the kiosks were down at the airport, the pre-flight customs line was super-extra-long because US colleges were starting up and so so many people with F1 and J1 visas were trying to navigate the process, and due to an immigration status change, we didn't realise we were going to get stuck in secondary inspection for an extended time. We ran like deer to catch our flight, got to the gate only to find the door had closed a minute before, and we weren't allowed to board.

After about an hour of panic, because we really couldn't afford a hotel to stay over and fly out the next day AND we both had work the next morning, we found an incredibly nice gate agent who managed to get us on the only configuration of flights that would work; it involved a pretty miserable series of layovers and meant clearing customs AGAIN through transfers and we'd be getting home at something like one in the morning, having arrived at the airport at 6AM... but we were still grateful. It meant no sitting together, of course -- the seats we'd previously booked together meant nothing, and they were doing their best to just squeeze us in.

We barely made it on to the last in our long chain of flights, having had to sprint through customs, security, and a secondary secondary inspection. We barely made it, due to a delay on the second-to-last flight. My socks were soaked because for some unknowable reason the airport cleaning staff decided to mop the metal-detector lanes while we were going through them in our stocking feet. We were sweaty and exhausted and hadn't had time for a meal at any point in the day and had only really gotten to talk to each other while racing through airport corridors, retrieving luggage, or nervously fidgeting in security lines.

In the last scrum in the last security line, my headphones had gotten jammed in my partner's bag, so I had to awkwardly signal for them across the aisle of the little puddle-jumper we were in. The kindhearted soul sitting next to my partner, out of nowhere, out of kindness, asked if we wanted to switch. Really, we didn't need to switch. It was a short flight, and we're grownups. But it was such a kind gesture, I seriously almost cried for happy reasons. We bought him a drink and despite being exhausted we ended up talking the whole flight -- turned out his travel day had been about as miserable as ours had, and he was grateful for a Scotch and a little conversation.

tl;dr sometimes people are kind out of nowhere, even on airplanes, and it is really great
posted by halation at 11:01 AM on April 5, 2018 [24 favorites]

I happened to have one of those chocolate bars with the extra caffeine in them which I carry on flights in case I start to get a migraine, so I fed the entire thing to the child while we were in descent.

you are the hero of this thread and i salute you
posted by poffin boffin at 11:02 AM on April 5, 2018 [27 favorites]

My husband is a nervous flyer so when we fly together we always get a window seat for him and I sit in the middle seat. I hate the middle seat and prefer the aisle, but we do these things for love. Once, flying back from Hawaii, we were asked to switch with another couple because they "couldn't" sit in the bulkhead seats at the front of our section. My husband and I were all settled in, I had my books and snacks in the seat pocket, and I had had a terrible cold for most of our "dream" vacation, so I was exhausted and surly.

So the stewardess explains whatever medical or specious-sounding reason this couple couldn't sit in the seats with no fucking leg room at all, and then asks 5'8" me and my 6'4" husband to switch. My husband is a kind, sweet man who would've said yes, because he's not nearly as selfish and angry as I am, so I preemptively snapped, "No! Ask someone else!" And felt guilty, but smug, for the rest of the flight.

When I fly by myself, I fly Southwest and pay for the early check-on so I'm always in A group and can sit where I want. I prefer to the back of the plane, so I haven't been asked to move but if I do, I'm going to ask for the $20 back I paid to get on early.

I was on a SW flight from Oakland to Tucson a year or so ago where a nasty argument broke out, because a couple came on *very* late and coerced two unrelated people to move their seats so the couple could sit together. They were super high-handed and snotty for bozos trying to get seated at the back of a SW flight. Anyway, the woman of the couple claimed it was so, so important because she needed to talk with her husband.

Then she proceeded to ignore her husband completely, and strike up a shiny new friendship with the stranger in the window seats next to her. They babbled loudly and inanely together for the whole flight and then when the plane landed, the woman who had moved seats was like, "Interesting how you said you had to talk to your HUSBAND and then your DIDN'T TALK TO HIM AT ALL," and then a screaming match broke out. We were all stuck together at the back of the plane and *that* was super unpleasant.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:47 AM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

In the US, airlines have to let you sit next to your kid. You don't have to ask any passengers to move, just remind them at the counter that US law requires it. It's up to them to figure out how to accommodate you.
posted by goatdog at 12:05 PM on April 5, 2018 [17 favorites]

When I flew back from Mexico a couple of years ago - 12 hours plus across the Atlantic - when I got to online check-in I found a price-enhanced seat at the front of the column of seats. So no seat in front and I could stretch out my legs, which is good as I'm prone to getting terrible, terrible cramps in those situations, and it was worth it to me for the lack of agony. It was in the middle of three, the two either side already booked.

Just after take-off, the young man sitting next to me said "Excuse me, would you like to swap seats with my girlfriend?" I looked over, and she waved at me from her seat two in and two rows back in the middle block. And I said "No, thank you", and he looks at me like I've torn up his carefully written script. I mean, he planned it: "Oh, don't worry we'll only pay one surcharge and then guilt the person next to us into moving". After all, they booked their seats before I booked mine. But I'm the one who gets to feel like he's an arsehole.

This is why I hate dealing with people. It's also why I've just found it easier to make my peace with being a complete arsehole.
posted by Grangousier at 12:10 PM on April 5, 2018 [28 favorites]

"Excuse me, would you like to swap seats with my girlfriend?"

Ha, what a wording! Like you were just waiting for someone to ask!
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:14 PM on April 5, 2018 [14 favorites]

When we went to England last summer with our 7 year old British Airways was charging something like $50/person per leg of the trip to reserve seats in advance. We were already paying so much for the flight, we couldn't justify another few hundred, so we took our chances on being able to get seats together at check in (and we were able to fine, yay), but I was SO nervous. It was such an unnecessary worry to add to an already stressful journey. I was prepared, though, to bargain with strangers to switch seats with the opening gambit of "he gets motion sick and threw up all over me on a Boston-Baltimore flight." I seriously don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to trade seats to avoid sitting next to a strange child, that child might throw up on you! Readers, I have walked through BWI absolutely drenched in my child's partially digested lunch, let this be a cautionary tale (also, moms, always pack a change of clothes in your carry-on).
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 12:23 PM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

Good news, y'all! Soon there may no longer be such a thing as window seats:
Airbus is experimenting with LG TVs inside the aircraft, potentially removing windows from the aircraft which would improve aerodynamics and fuel economy [Twitter link]
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:30 PM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

☑️ Precheck Story, I can't remember where I was traveling to or from but I had precheck, and I was at one of the smaller airports who apparently put everyone in the same line regardless. As I approached the scanner a very angry TSA agent demanded that I remove my jacket and shoes. One of the other TSA folks tried to explain to him that I had precheck and instead of making things quicker, they argued about it back and forth for 5 minutes slowing down the works for me and everyone behind me. Yet another reason I hate flying.
posted by evilDoug at 12:36 PM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

corb: "Yeah, I feel like a lot of people are taking good advice from the 70s and applying it to today in ways that don’t make sense. Like when planes were 70% full I never minded couples booking aisle and window and hoping no one sat in the middle, but that was also when anyone who did could just move to the other empty seats. Now when flights are overbooked it means that you’re the one forcing people not to be seated together just for gamification that doesn’t even work anymore anyway."

I don't understand your complaint... this has definitely worked for me in the past year. And even when it doesn't the person in the middle (we're all agreed here that the middle is the worst possible option, yes?) then gets to choose aisle or window, so it's win-win, isn't it? Who is being inconvenienced here and why should I be feeling bad for booking Seat A and C and hoping for the best?
posted by Grither at 12:36 PM on April 5, 2018 [11 favorites]

Good news, y'all! Soon there may no longer be such a thing as window seats:

I am not ordinarily claustrophobic, but just reading that practically induced a panic attack. Guess I'll be paying extra for the airplanes with windows.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 12:40 PM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

People traveling together who could otherwise book seat C and then D across the aisle?
posted by poffin boffin at 12:40 PM on April 5, 2018

But then you're blocking a couple that would normally book an aisle and a middle, so.... I don't get your point.
posted by Grither at 12:43 PM on April 5, 2018

I am not ordinarily claustrophobic, but just reading that practically induced a panic attack.

I'm actually surprised airlines haven't started charging by-the-minute rates for Open Window Usage.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:47 PM on April 5, 2018

that's fine, i don't actually care enough to explain basic mindfulness.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:47 PM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

That's what I don't get... how is it basic mindfulness when you get your preference but not when I get mine? Assuming six seats across, a couple booking is obviously going to prefer the better seats. So choices are A&C, C&D, and D&F, right? What makes your choice of C&D better than A&C and D&F?

You can't assume everyone is a couple, so assuming that A&C and D&F are going to break up a couple doesn't make sense. So why is my preference not "basic mindfulness" and yours is? When in my preference, the solo traveler 'stuck' in the middle seat ends up getting a seat of their choice, instead? And if they're not solo, they can then use that upgraded seat to trade for a middle next to their partner if they so choose?
posted by Grither at 12:52 PM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

Don't worry, though, ODiV: US alrlines won't ever separate you from your large, smelly, shedding and yapping dog.

posted by rokusan at 7:22 AM on April 5 [1 favorite +] [!]

Except through death.
posted by "mad dan" eccles at 12:53 PM on April 5, 2018

Just after take-off, the young man sitting next to me said "Excuse me, would you like to swap seats with my girlfriend?" I looked over, and she waved at me from her seat two in and two rows back in the middle block. And I said "No, thank you", and he looks at me like I've torn up his carefully written script.

"Excuse me, but would you like to trade your flute of champagne for ... a nice chilled glass of piss?"

"No thank you."

Seriously: why do people propose terrible trades and then get surprised when people don't go for them? Or worse, get upset and treat people who don't take their terrible offers as "impolite".
posted by theorique at 1:02 PM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

I'm usually more surprised when people agree to change seats than when they say no. Just based on my personal experience as being one half of a couple who are often seated separately (why, I have not figured out - we don't check in late or anything). We do always ask our respective seatmates to switch for no other reason than we would prefer to be sitting together. What can I say? We like each other, and my flight experiences are considerably better with my spouse next to me. Obviously we would both be okay on our own, as we are adults, but if it's a flight of over 4 hours, I'd prefer to be next to the person I've chosen as my preferred interaction partner in life.

I come from very much a guess culture, but in this situation, I fully embrace an assertive ask mentality which means I will ask to switch with you, but it also means I understand that you are also well within your rights to say no, especially if it would mean a seat downgrade for you.
posted by spicytunaroll at 1:02 PM on April 5, 2018

Just after take-off, the young man sitting next to me said "Excuse me, would you like to swap seats with my girlfriend?" I looked over, and she waved at me from her seat two in and two rows back in the middle block.

I would have said that maybe he could swap with one of the people next to his girlfriend.

(Actually I would have pretended to not know English for the whole flight. Despite the fact that I'd probably be reading a book in English.)
posted by madcaptenor at 1:02 PM on April 5, 2018 [5 favorites]

I didn't know that charging to allow seat selection was a thing now. I've only flown Alaska and United recently and it was still normal pre-selection at that point. Is this a new horror I'll have to deal with when I book my fall and winter flights?
posted by tavella at 1:14 PM on April 5, 2018

It depends. I was surprised that Lufthansa charges for each and every seat selection and does Air Canada sometimes. usually the non-US carriers are better but, no.
posted by GuyZero at 1:16 PM on April 5, 2018

I'm actually surprised airlines haven't started charging by-the-minute rates for Open Window Usage.

Just reminded me of the people, and flight attendants, who ask me to pull the window shade so they can see their screens better. HAHAHAHA... No.
I'm flying in the fucking air and watching the landscape go by and it's a miracle I never get tired of.
Sorry you're squinting at your Candy Crush and edited Will Smith movie. Maybe you'll get another chance to experience them someday.
posted by bongo_x at 1:19 PM on April 5, 2018 [31 favorites]

Assuming six seats across, a couple booking is obviously going to prefer the better seats. So choices are A&C, C&D, and D&F, right? What makes your choice of C&D better than A&C and D&F?

Because I know going into the booking process that I am part of a party of two, and choosing C&D means I'm not going to have to impose upon a third party at all in order to be able to sit next to my husband. As part of a party of two booking early, I have the opportunity to make this happen all on my own. If that means we have to trade off the middle seat from flight to flight to have that happen, then we do. It's the price we pay for fulfilling our preference of wanting to sit next to each other. Someone else's preference might be comfy seats. Fine. Then book A & C and the price you pay is knowing someone might sit in between you.

Were I to pick A&C with the hopes of making middle seat move or silently discouraging people from sitting in between you, I'd be trying to satisfy two preferences (preferable seats with nobody between us) in one shot and in a coach/economy airfare world when flights are often fully booked (which flight attendants mention frequently, so it's no surprise) that's not something I feel is right to do.
posted by kimberussell at 1:21 PM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

Were I to pick A&C with the hopes of making middle seat move or silently discouraging people from sitting in between you, I'd be trying to satisfy two preferences (preferable seats with nobody between us) in one shot and in a coach/economy airfare world when flights are often fully booked (which flight attendants mention frequently, so it's no surprise) that's not something I feel is right to do.

The thing is, when you offer the change to a solo traveler in seat B, you're offering him an on-the-spot upgrade from a less desirable seat (B) to a more desirable seat (A or C).

It leads to a win-win outcome: the couple sits happily together in A-B or B-C, and the solo traveler gets his choice of a more desirable window (A) or aisle (C) seat.

What's the downside?
posted by theorique at 1:42 PM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

Jiminy Cricket, you know there must be a couple of extra dollars involved, for a situation to get this complicated. Seat preselection should be available either to everybody or nobody. Pre-board people with disabilities and their parties, and after that let the flight attendants seat people like they do on a roller coaster. How many in your group? Go to seats X, Y, and Z. Fill in gaps from the single rider line, and work from the back of the cabin to the front.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:52 PM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

theorique - I think the idea is that, if you as a couple just book A&B from the start (or C&D, across the aisle from one another), you are giving the opportunity for three couples to sit next to each other in one six-person row (A&B, C&D, E&F).

However, if you select A&C in the hopes that no one will take the middle seat, you are likely denying another couple the opportunity to get seats together ahead of time. Because then, even if another couple books E&F, you're left with two singles (B and D).

I don't really care one way or the other, as I'm almost always traveling by myself for work (airline tickets for fun for a family of four tending to be cost-prohibitive), but I think that's what kimberussell and others are getting at.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 1:57 PM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

The_Underpants_Monster, I almost always travel on my own and I have preferences for where I sit. Fill in gaps from the single rider line would mean I would always be stuck in middle seats. No thanks!
posted by twilightlost at 1:59 PM on April 5, 2018 [9 favorites]

Last month I flew in a smaller regional jet with a A-BC seat layout and on both the outbound and return flights I got one of the A seats that are simultaneously window and aisle (even though I have no miles or points and am always in like boarding group ZZ) and there was no one next to me and it was amazing and I felt like I was getting away with something the whole time.
posted by enn at 1:59 PM on April 5, 2018 [11 favorites]

I used to get mad that they started charging to have an assigned seat but now I guess I'll be glad because every flight affords me the opportunity to engage in arbitrage and make that money back plus of course a bit extra on top for the trouble of moving my ass two feet.

Double-plus you no longer need an excuse to remain in your seat if you counter with "pay me."

Civilization isn't going to downfall without our help folks. Everyone has to pitch in.
posted by griphus at 2:00 PM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

☑️ Precheck Story, I can't remember where I was traveling to or from but I had precheck, and I was at one of the smaller airports who apparently put everyone in the same line regardless. As I approached the scanner a very angry TSA agent demanded that I remove my jacket and shoes. One of the other TSA folks tried to explain to him that I had precheck and instead of making things quicker...

Wait, that's an option? Happened to me last fall so I just shuffled along with everyone else, not just shoes and laptops out of the bag but power cords and chargers as well.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:07 PM on April 5, 2018

However, if you select A&C in the hopes that no one will take the middle seat, you are likely denying another couple the opportunity to get seats together ahead of time.

Yes, and frequently that couple is a parent and a child, who are usually prioritizing sitting next to each other over comfortable seats. It’s also the tragedy of the commons - you may not feel you’re hurting anything by doing that, but if everyone does that it means that couple seats will be unavailable far earlier than they naturally would be.
posted by corb at 2:17 PM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

However, if you select A&C in the hopes that no one will take the middle seat, you are likely denying another couple the opportunity to get seats together ahead of time.

I see what you guys mean now. Thanks for the clarification!
posted by theorique at 2:24 PM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

Aircraft changes and delays, as well as what seems to be an industry wide confusion about infant and minor child boarding passes, also seem to contribute to the phenomenon of parents and young children being split. I have travelled with mynoy yet two year old a fair bit and have literally had a boarding pass issue either at check in or boarding every time. Earlier this week my sweetie, kid and I were on a flight which was several hours delayed. My kid had his own seat but in th reshuffle of seat assignments with the new craft, his new boarding pass wouldn't print with mine. When we made it on board the overbooked flight there was another 20 minute story on the ground where no fewer than five families attempted to secure seat changes so that hey could sit beside their children. A six year old was seated in an aisle seat 8 rows behind her mother. It was mayhem!
posted by Lisitasan at 3:11 PM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

i feel like an onboard bouncy castle would solve a lot of these problems
posted by poffin boffin at 3:13 PM on April 5, 2018 [11 favorites]

I don't normally have a lot of stories about this, but I flew 2 weeks ago, and ended up in seat switching conversations on both legs.

I had to travel to an airport 100 miles* away to find the nearest outbound flight that wasn't sold out or 4 times the usual price, because it was the start of the school holidays (and boy howdy, was Birmingham airport crowded), but somehow ended up in an aisle seat on an empty row. So when the flight attendant came up and asked if I'd like to move, I refused without thinking about it, and they'd already started walking on before I realised they were wanting me to sit at the exit row, which was also empty.

By the time I was being seated, I'd got enough of my composure back to realise that when they were checking I knew how to operate the emergency exit that I only needed to point at the handle and confidently say "yes", rather than perform a full mime of the operation I mentally rehearse at every take-off: right hand down to the lower handle, left hand at the upper handle, release the lower handle, pull the top of the door in and turn it through 90° to jettison it out from where it came. It's something I guess I've been thinking about since 1985, as well as counting my rows out every time.

On the return, it was a smaller plane: a Dash 8 (2 seats either side of the aisle), I'd settled into my window seat, and along came a family of 4 split across my row and the row in front, including the young child sitting next to me. I was trying to work out how to interrupt all their plans to suggest I swapped with them so they could be together when another man travelling alone did that first and came and sat next to me. When I tried to feebly say that I'd been thinking of offering, he said “yeah, well, it seemed better to let them sit together” and I was pretty sure he thought I was a grumpy arse who disapproved.

Coming in to land, the 7 year old was pressing their nose against the window, like me, and saying things like "wow is that all Southampton?" and "We're going to be living in a really small house with only one toilet" and "I can see a red bus on that road" (it was a truck), etc. I knew he was going to be delighted when he saw the landing gear drop down from underneath the engine, and when I heard the hydraulics start to operate, I said “oh, the landing gear”, hoping he'd hear. He did. And he was delighted, so all was worth it.

So that was a nice story of swapping seats, even though I didn't swap. But the person who did broke the ice.

*of 200 miles from either airport, but with awful ferry and train connections for going overland.
posted by ambrosen at 4:27 PM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

I have a related story. I had selected the middle seat of an exit row that already had the window and aisle seats reserved. I wanted the extra room. After settling in, an older couple boarded and the woman asked if I would take the window seat. I explained that the window seat in that exit row on this model of aircraft has a thinly padded seat and that my back would not permit me to sit in it for a four-hour flight, but that I would be happy to to take the aisle seat. The woman testily replied that there was no way she would give up the aisle seat. I said, "Okay." As she and her husband settled in, she berated me for not accommodating her request and telling me I was selfish and rude and that I should be ashamed. I asked her if she thought she was behaving appropriately, and she responded by becoming even more nasty toward me. Her husband tried to pretend he was somewhere else through all this.

I was about to call the flight attendant when a man from the exit row ahead offered that the seat next to him was available and he would be happy to have me sit in it. I leapt at the opportunity, of course, but it burns my ass that the harpy got her way in the end by being an asshole.
posted by Mental Wimp at 5:08 PM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

I always travel alone and I always make sure I have an aisle seat. Except Southwest's system confused me and I was one of the last to board the plane. I ended up sitting in the middle seat between a couple.

Now, I totally get why neither of them wanted the middle seat. But you can't assume that the person in the middle seat is going to want to be talked accross for hours.

Luckily they were a very nice and friendly elderly couple who basically adopted me as a grandchild and included me in their chatter. It wasn't the quiet ride I was hoping for but by 5 hours later I was pretty much all 'grandma, tell me tell me, what happened next!'
posted by kitten magic at 5:47 PM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

Oh lord, the Sedaris story. Though having met him several times at signings, I would figure he'd be the sort to be fine with being the asshole. Then again, clearly so is Becky. If you're willing to pay the price for being an asshole, i.e. you get harassed the entire 90 minute flight so you can avoid the bulkhead...whee? Fun times?

Well, he got an article out of it anyway, I'm sure that was the real goal.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:59 PM on April 5, 2018

Boarding took about half the the length of time it takes now.

You can't blame the boarding groups for that, it's pretty much how they have done it since time inmemorial, just with slightly more line jumping than was previously the case now that anybody can buy earlyish boarding. No, the idiot that decided charging for even a single checked bag is responsible for that. Before that, there was almost always room in an overhead bin somewhere on any mainline flight even if you were the last person on.

Now that everyone is loading up on carry-ons like they are one of those people who pretty much live in airports it's a damned madhouse as everyone fights for the bins and you're completely fucked if you are a standby passenger. Both emplaning and deplaning now take far longer thanks to the sheer amount of cabin baggage.
posted by wierdo at 6:29 PM on April 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

Just after take-off, the young man sitting next to me said "Excuse me, would you like to swap seats with my girlfriend?" I looked over, and she waved at me from her seat two in and two rows back in the middle block. And I said "No, thank you", and he looks at me like I've torn up his carefully written script. I mean, he planned it: "Oh, don't worry we'll only pay one surcharge and then guilt the person next to us into moving".

It's possible this guy didn't pay anything extra. Some of the "better" economy seats are automatically assigned to frequent travelers. I know this because my family includes a lot of them, and they get automatically sent to the place everyone else has to pay $25 (or whatever) extra for. But again, the solution to this is simple: the guy should've offered his better seat to whoever was sitting next to his gf instead of expecting someone in a good row to to trade down. Ugh.
posted by grandiloquiet at 6:32 PM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

I explained that the window seat in that exit row on this model of aircraft has a thinly padded seat and that my back would not permit me to sit in it for a four-hour flight, but that I would be happy to to take the aisle seat. The woman testily replied that there was no way she would give up the aisle seat. I said, "Okay." As she and her husband settled in, she berated me for not accommodating her request and telling me I was selfish and rude and that I should be ashamed.

"Oh yeah, lady? You're selfish and rude to demand that somebody take a seat that they know is incompatible with their back problems, and then shame them for not physically suffering for hours to help you."

As I said upthread: physical removal at cruising altitude. It's the only way we can deal with people like this.
posted by theorique at 6:52 PM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

Both emplaning and deplaning now take far longer thanks to the sheer amount of cabin baggage.

So do they just start boarding way earlier now? Or were we just sitting on the plane waiting to go for twice as long back then?
posted by ODiV at 7:05 PM on April 5, 2018

But again, the solution to this is simple: the guy should've offered his better seat to whoever was sitting next to his gf instead of expecting someone in a good row to to trade down.

I recently got bumped to International First Class on a flight to Japan with my wife, but because we were on separate tickets (different return dates) she didn't get moved. She is a nervous flyer [and would have been stuck by herself in a middle seat] so I gave up my seat for the person who had been auto-reassigned into mine (I was bumped from Economy+ to First, she had been bumped from regular Economy to Economy+). That's how you do it. Its pretty rare someone would turn down an actual free upgrade (although to be fair, the woman in question did seem a little skeptical and I brought over a flight attendant to make it clear that I was not trying to trick her...).

On the one hand, first class on intercontinental flights is reallllly nice. On the other hand, I did get massive points with both my wife and the flight attendants :)

I've done aisle-for-aisle swaps before (sometimes people booked late and couldn't get 2 seats together), but as a tall person who goes to the bathroom a lot I'm not going to switch aisle for anything else (and I haven't flown in a non-aisle seat in 15-20 years).

(Side note: I'm always impressed and/or disturbed when someone in my row on a 12 hour flight doesn't get up to go to the bathroom the entire flight...)
posted by thefoxgod at 7:17 PM on April 5, 2018 [9 favorites]

There are a lot of people in the world, many of them need to travel. I think I've been on precisely three flights where the whole plane wasn't sold out.

Really depends on the route. I've been on a lot of not-full planes recently. The one that took the cake was Singapore->Malaysia which was probably about 5% full. Most rows (6 across) were completely empty.

Ironically, it was one of those budget airlines where you have to pay to select your seat. If I had known...
posted by thefoxgod at 7:24 PM on April 5, 2018

Really depends on the route. I've been on a lot of not-full planes recently. The one that took the cake was Singapore->Malaysia which was probably about 5% full. Most rows (6 across) were completely empty.

The emptiest planes I've been on lately were transcontinental routes, but with really old planes. Noisy. Ugly. Sketchy upholstery. Worst of the fleet. I assume that airlines schedule these planes for underperforming routes anyway, and perhaps some passengers try to avoid them. But then...you might get these really sparsely populated economy sections that are glorious. Even the flight attendants are more cheerful, because hardly anyone is on the plane (and as this thread indicates, the true hell of travel is your fellow travelers). I should warn that all of these experiences are winter-->early spring and not in a tropical direction; you probably can't expect such good fortune during the summer travel season.
posted by grandiloquiet at 7:49 PM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

We're a couple who usually book an window and an aisle. We like our space and the gamble that we might get full use of the middle seat tray for our drinks and snacks and the underneath of the middle seat for stuff like jackets or shoes or a bag.

But usually what happens is the middle seat is booked, and the person who shows up for it is made very happy when we tell them that they're going to get the aisle seat and one of us will take the middle.

Sometime last year I was on a flight by myself, on the aisle, and the other seats were occupied by a woman and her ~4-year-old. The kid was totally fine - delightful, even - but the mom still insisted on buying me a Jim Beam. Okay!
posted by rtha at 8:41 PM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

This thread has made me aware of some of my “invisible” privilege. I travel all the time, don’t think I’ve had a week without plane travel since January, but I’m one of those mythical “business guys in a suit” referred to several times in this thread so I guess people just don’t really bother to ask me very often (plus I generally travel Southwest where I know I can always have an aisle and sit near the front of the plane)?

I did have one recent (non-Southwest) flight where as soon as I sat down a flight attendant came over to ask if I’d be willing to change my aisle seat to a middle seat in a different row, and told me she’d throw in a free drink for my troubles, but never did bother to explain the reason she was asking. Frankly, it sounded like kind of a terrible deal: Be horribly uncomfortable, trying to cram my 6’, 200+ pound frame into a cramped middle seat for a couple of hours in exchange for a Miller Lite? No thanks. After giving her an immediate “No” response, I turned to the guy next to me and said, “You’d think if they really wanted to get me to agree to move from an aisle to a middle seat they’d actually make me a real offer, instead of something so piddly”. He didn’t really respond.

A little over halfway through the flight a woman a few rows ahead of us, with a crying baby on her lap, got up out of her middle seat, came over to our row, and handed her baby off to the guy next to me. Oh. I did feel kind of bad about that one.
posted by The Gooch at 11:11 PM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

The solution to the boarding/locker problem (which works, and I know, because I've seen it in Japan) is instead of boarding by row, you board by seat - all the window seats first, then all the middle seats, then all the aisle seats.

Yes, I don't think anyone in the west would stand for it either, but it works.
posted by Grangousier at 11:24 PM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

So do they just start boarding way earlier now? Or were we just sitting on the plane waiting to go for twice as long back then?

It comes out of faking the flight time. You'll notice that there is a lot of slush built in between the boarding time (usually about 30 minutes before the listed time of the flight), the time the plane gets rolling, the actual time the plane's wheels leave the ground, the landing time, and the time when the jetway is hooked up and you can get off. I used to be amazed how even flights that left "late" would land on time and the crew would talk about "making up time in the air." That's fake. They know that the time in the air is only a portion of the total flight time and there's room for the boarding mess. The extra time to stow baggage and bumble around like idiots comes out of the projected flight time, not actual time in the air.
posted by Miko at 5:15 AM on April 6, 2018 [3 favorites]

"Yes, and frequently that couple is a parent and a child, who are usually prioritizing sitting next to each other over comfortable seats. It’s also the tragedy of the commons - you may not feel you’re hurting anything by doing that, but if everyone does that it means that couple seats will be unavailable far earlier than they naturally would be."

Why are we assuming everyone is traveling in couples? Two parents and child is three, which means by taking C&D you're blocking two families from sitting together, not just a couple. How is that more mindful to others?

Also, imagine a plane that is entirely solo travelers. Then you will see the seats fill up the same way as you do now, with A, C, D, and F being taken before B and E. No gamification by couples necessary.

Telling people they are not being mindful of others for choosing A&C (which has *always* ended with 3 happy people in my experience) seems rather shortsighted.
posted by Grither at 6:18 AM on April 6, 2018 [2 favorites]

Telling people they are not being mindful of others for choosing A&C (which has *always* ended with 3 happy people in my experience) seems rather shortsighted.

Good point, and my experience definitely agrees with yours. Either the couple secures an empty seat that nobody wanted, and are happy, or else they slightly 'upgrade' a solo traveler who was expecting to get a middle seat in order to sit together. I've never seen anybody turns down an unexpected B->A or B->C trade.

Trying to globally optimize the experience of the aircraft passengers isn't something that individuals or small groups of travelers can realistically do. That is the responsibility of the airlines - and how they implement their booking and seat-selection software, and how they execute the boarding process on the ground.
posted by theorique at 6:43 AM on April 6, 2018 [2 favorites]

The parent tried to argue that she looked small enough to be a lap child.

"Yes, she's actually under two, but I paid for this seat for her anyway, because I think airlines deserve more of my money."
posted by theorique at 6:44 AM on April 6, 2018 [3 favorites]

Either the couple secures an empty seat that nobody wanted, and are happy, or else they slightly 'upgrade' a solo traveler who was expecting to get a middle seat in order to sit together.

Or, I didn't get an aisle seat I could have had, because you took the last one and I picked a different middle seat that you didn't implicitly place under your control.

Two paying passengers shouldn't get to control the disposition of three seats.
posted by stevis23 at 7:22 AM on April 6, 2018 [3 favorites]

Two paying passengers shouldn't get to control the disposition of three seats.

If two single passengers get the aisle and window, why is that better? I would prefer to sit aisle and next to a stranger and have a friend with the same preference, but window. Are we obliged to sit next to each other on an airplane just because we know each other? Is it ok if we end up on different rows?
posted by jeather at 7:39 AM on April 6, 2018

jeather, that's not the situation discussed. In that case, you're not planning to switch. So take your preferences, the stranger gets stuck.

If you were planning to sit next to someone all along. then book that.

Look, I'm not suggesting this is a fire-into-the-sun offense or anywhere near my top list of societal concerns right now. But deliberately leaving a single middle seat makes it harder for any other pairs or groups and, as I said, even some singles.

People are asking "who doesn't come out ahead when we do this?" I'm trying to explain who doesn't.
posted by stevis23 at 7:51 AM on April 6, 2018 [2 favorites]

Two paying passengers shouldn't get to control the disposition of three seats.

They really don't, though.

Suppose the person with seat B turns up, the people in A and C make their offer, and he says, no, I'm a middle-seat-guy, because I have phobias of both aircraft windows and beverage carts, and so this is the only seat that allows me to fly and still maintain my mental health (or whatever explanation he offers about retaining seat B).

As the OP and this thread show, they don't have the right to make him switch if he doesn't want to, even if most people would.
posted by theorique at 7:51 AM on April 6, 2018

Reserving two seats in an empty row also makes it harder for, say, two parents traveling with a child to find three seats together. This leads to even more parents separated from children asking innocent bystanders to change seats. When I'm on a flight that I know is going to fill up, if I can find my preferred seat(s) in a partially-filled row instead of an empty one, I'll take those and leave more contiguous seats for people who may need them, since I've been in the situation where I almost got seated away from my toddler.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:01 AM on April 6, 2018 [5 favorites]

You know I read the whole thread and the moral calculus for me is simple: I pretty much always buy the low-end tickets, I fly solo, I have a Kindle and Xanax, I prefer aisle but whatevs, oh and I'm freelance so I don't actually have to be anywhere. I'm chill.

But folks, remember, we got consumer protection laws in this (and all the other) countries. If I buy a ticket, and I get a seat, and for some reason you want my seat or I want yours, then let's make the airline fix it. We're on a plane, what do you have for me? Frankly, nothing. Like I said, Kindle and Xanax. There is nothing you can do for me except leave me alone, but the airline? Now those motherfuckers got the goods. Upgrades. Snacks. Drinks. Miles. Discounts. Wifi passwords. They control all the seats. Go on, fools, bump me. Kick me off the flight for up to $1350 or at least a discount voucher. Now you and me, you wanna switch seats? Ok, then work with me. Talk to the stewardess. Before you do, let's plot this out. Let's game this. These motherfuckers are taking our money and emiserating us, let's get some getback.

I'll happily move, but you help me get the airline to pay me to do it, and to pay you for making you make them pay me for their fuckup. Let's do this.
posted by saysthis at 8:13 AM on April 6, 2018 [10 favorites]

Two parents and child is three, which means by taking C&D you're blocking two families from sitting together, not just a couple. How is that more mindful to others?

I mean, the actual answer is there is a hierarchy of thoughtfulness. Ideal would be couples in empty rows taking A&B, thus maximizing opportunities for up to a family of four, who can place either adults in C&D and children in E&F, one three-person family, who would take DEF, or two couples who could take C&D and E&F, and accepting that the price for showing solidarity with other people is that one member of the couple will have a middle seat.

C&D does not allow for a three person group, but still allows for two two-person groups, which means couples, and in that three person group they can guarantee a parent will be seated at least with the youngest and least capable child. So it’s the best of the seatings of the people who are trying to make sure that every member of the couple gets a “best seat”.
posted by corb at 8:19 AM on April 6, 2018 [2 favorites]

Oh, and if you recline, same deal. Fine, you can lean back, but we could also recline and have free beer the entire flight. The barest of acting skills is all this takes. Let's be legends yo.
posted by saysthis at 8:21 AM on April 6, 2018

But folks, remember, we got consumer protection laws in this (and all the other) countries. If I buy a ticket, and I get a seat, and for some reason you want my seat or I want yours, then let's make the airline fix it.

We need a union. Not a labor union, but along that line. Air Travelers of the world ... UNITE!
posted by theorique at 8:49 AM on April 6, 2018 [1 favorite]

So we recently had to take a domestic flight in China, and we were having a really hard time getting a ticket for our toddler over the internet. We show up at the airport and we're being told to go to a special desk with a heart over it which is for people traveling with small children. They give us boarding passes, we get on the plane, and my wife is at the window, I'm in the aisle ... and the middle seat is mysteriously empty.

The flight attendant tells us to put the child in the middle seat and brings us a pillow for our child. Then we look around and we notice that the entire front of the plane is just families traveling with toddlers and babies who happen to also have mysteriously empty seats near them. A guy in a suit gets on the airplane and starts to say "Oh, I think this is my seat ..." before a flight attendant zooms over and suggests he sits over in another seat. He looks at the array of babies and decides that yes, he does want to sit over there.

My wife and I thought this was brilliant; if nobody wants to sit near a family with a baby, have all the families sit together! And this wasn't even a fancy airline or anything. (Also they gave us breakfast and after that some lady came through with a giant basket of steamed buns because what about second breakfast).
posted by Comrade_robot at 9:59 AM on April 6, 2018 [14 favorites]

With all this A&C seat gaming talk I now see why some airlines are charging more for those seats.
posted by bongo_x at 10:28 AM on April 6, 2018

> rokusan:
"I was unexpectedly moved a few weeks ago when, flying solo as a male, I ended up seated next to an unaccompanied child. This is apparently not allowed in US society. (A solo woman replaced me.)

Moving was not a problem for me, because every seat on US airlines is an awful seat, anyway, so why complain about the specifics of torture. What I didn't love were the glares from being red-lettered as some sort of child rapist on spec, mainly because, you know, the airline chose these seats for both of us in the first place, so maybe should have not done so in the first place, if they were going to make a scene of it later?"

It used to be. I used to fly solo quite a bit pre-11 years old. Divorced parents.
posted by Samizdata at 10:45 AM on April 6, 2018

> octobersurprise:
"Do they ever let little kids in to the cockpit anymore? I got to do that once when I was 6 and it was magical.

I got the wings, the cockpit visit, the whole deal once when I was a kid. It was magical. Never saw a grown man naked, though."

Same here. I did get to find out in person, however, that Kareem Abdul Jabbar is very touchy about his basketball days.
posted by Samizdata at 11:38 AM on April 6, 2018 [6 favorites]

The last time I flew, my husband and I booked seats across the aisle from each other, as we usually do, because we are both aisle people. We boarded to find a couple already ensconced in my seat and the middle seat, and the woman explained "He has to have an aisle seat" while the flight attendant standing nearby tried to show me to the middle seat they'd previously been in. I said "No, I have to have an aisle seat, that's is why I booked an aisle seat" (claustrophobia), and the attendant then showed me to the EMPTY THREE-SEAT ROW TWO ROWS BEHIND MY USURPED SEAT while I sat and wondered why the couple didn't get that row and had to have my seat. (My husband moved back to sit with me, at least.)
posted by telophase at 11:39 AM on April 6, 2018 [5 favorites]

> theorique:
"If God hadn't intended for us to recline airline seats, he wouldn't have given us airline seats that recline. #fite-me"

I got your back. In case someone decides to throw down.
posted by Samizdata at 11:43 AM on April 6, 2018 [2 favorites]

We need a union. Not a labor union, but along that line. Air Travelers of the world ... UNITE!

This is not a crazy idea. Many cities have transit riders unions or advocacy groups. Why not air travelers?

Hm the web says there's actually an National Association of Airline Passengers that looks relevant.
posted by Miko at 11:51 AM on April 6, 2018 [1 favorite]

"If God hadn't intended for us to recline airline seats, he wouldn't have given us airline seats that recline. #fite-me"

God also gave us an appendix which is useless until it nearly kills us.

Airplane seat recline is like the appendix.
posted by GuyZero at 12:04 PM on April 6, 2018 [7 favorites]

Completely late to this party and I'm mad about it because I just ended 4 years in a job where I flew 12-20 times/year, usually cross-country or transatlantic. I actually did not see a lot of seat-swapping shenanigans but (and maybe this is why) I DO believe I cracked the code to getting an emptier flight! Which is important to me, because nothing makes me happier than a window seat with no one in the middle seat.

Here are times/routes when you are more likely to have space:

- Really long (like Seattle-Paris) or really short (like Philadelphia-New Haven, but believe me when I tell you that plane was terrifying. It had actual ashtrays in the armrests!) flights.
- Nobody flies in January after the holiday season, especially not to places that are cold in January. have flown multiple times between Seattle and DC in January and every time I had a whole row to myself.
- Nobody flies on Saturday night, except home from vacation destinations. But if you're flying between random place A and random place B on Saturday night, the flight will be pretty empty.
- Flights in the afternoon or evening in the middle of the week (Tuesday-Thursday) will be emptier than flights earlier in the day, especially on long (like cross-country) flights, and especially if that airline has a direct flight between those two distant locations earlier in the day.

I know way too much about flying long distances, is what I'm saying. I've only flown once this year and I'm so happy about that.
posted by lunasol at 6:21 PM on April 6, 2018 [10 favorites]

The flight from Newark to Seattle right after I got married continues to make me angry.

My new wife and I had seats next to each other... and then Untied decided to reassign us both. Now we were both in middle seats, literally half a plane from each other, two days after getting married.

The flight attendant was useless, and no one wanted to trade with either of us, the one next to me telling me "fat people shouldn't get married, they should leave the chicks for guys like me". (The fact he lived after saying that, instead of having his heart stuffed into an airsick back like I had sacrificed him to Tezcatlipoca, shows my restraint.)

Sometimes you have plans and the jackasses at the airlines decide to screw you over.
posted by mephron at 8:02 PM on April 6, 2018 [4 favorites]

Obviously Metafilter needs to chip in on a private plane and start an air travel co-op. I'll run the pie concession at Crone Island Airfield.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:42 PM on April 6, 2018 [6 favorites]

Oh also, Alaska Airlines seems to be the least likely of the American carriers to overbook flights, at least in my experience.
posted by lunasol at 11:10 PM on April 6, 2018

I’m getting on an international flight in a few hours and, after reading this thread, if anyone asks me to change seats I may instinctively just shove my thumbs into their eyes while screaming wrathfully.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:25 AM on April 7, 2018 [1 favorite]

I hear you, lunasol. I flew over 100k miles last year, but I’ve switched jobs and moved to the same continent as my fiancé. I kinda of like travel, but I do NOT miss the seating situation. I think I’ve only flown three flights this year, maybe it was two. Ahhh.

My personal fun: trying to explain that I want nobody sitting to my right. (I have minor scoliosis, so I am asymmetrical, so if I am stuck on a flight for more than two hrs or so with an unknown person to my right, I will be in pain for minimum a day, longest was a week after this happened LHR-SFO).

So I prefer right-side window, but left aisle. I have taken to various ways of describing this to booking agents and would-be seat switchers, and yes if I am in a left aisle I will refuse to switch for a right aisle. Humans aren’t perfectly symmetric and so yes real side preferences exist. Even ones you can’t see (I have to hunch over before anyone can see mine).

In conclusion flying sucks and airlines (especially British but the US legacy airlines are right behind) are assholes to us all.
posted by nat at 12:33 AM on April 7, 2018 [4 favorites]

Oh also, Alaska Airlines seems to be the least likely of the American carriers to overbook flights, at least in my experience.

Given Doug's other moronic moves I'd be unsurprised if this is no longer the case, but prior to the merger AA was by far the best in terms of their overbooking algorithm. Aside from a couple of occasions when weather was involved and despite flying AA 90% of the time, only two or three times did I even have a chance at getting a voluntary bump even in years when load factors were high and empty planes were exceedingly rare. Precisely once did I actually end up being bumped despite actively trying to book flights that would increase my chances of getting them to pay me. Aside from the one time I managed to wrangle a voucher out of them the best I got was an opup to first on a few occasions.

Delta, on the other hand, only got money out of me twice in 6 trips. One I paid for and got 2 further trips worth of VDB compensation. The second was paid for by a client and netted me four or five future trips, though I only took two of them myself. I had a good chance of yet more VDB vouchers, but I had been amply reminded why I didn't fly Delta by choice at the time and didn't want to deal with them any more, even if it was free. They had also started being less generous with the value of the vouchers at the same time prices were going up across the industry, so I certainly wasn't going to take an amount that would at best get me a single round trip.

For that second one, I had booked an open jaw so I could visit Georgia at school back when we were doing the LDR thing, so I unhappily checked in for the return after deciding it wasn't worth $75 to tack on an extra day, but ended up getting a $400 VDB voucher and a flight the next afternoon. Fancy. Next day I went back, got another $400 and decided to stay another week. Then I finally went home. Next trip, booked with $200 of the VDB got me another $300 for taking the next flight when my connection turned out to be oversold. The funny thing is I hated flying Delta (almost every time I flew them between 1998 and 2003 I was delayed in ATL and they had just closed their DFW hub) so I wasn't even trying to get the bumps.
posted by wierdo at 7:19 AM on April 7, 2018

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Reminds me of Ask vs. Guess culture all over again
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