10 dead 1000 wounded
April 10, 2018 5:33 PM Subscribe
On Monday the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC) warned that the use of live fire by Israeli soldiers against Palestinian protesters in the occupied Gaza Strip could “constitute crimes under the Rome Statute.
The Israeli Journalists Association on Saturday penned a letter to the IDF Chief of Staff demanding an investigation into the death of a Palestinian journalist Yaser Murtaja killed while covering Friday's protests in Gaza. Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman accused Murtaja of operating a drone despite lack of evidence.
Yaser Murtaja was among 9 killed as '20,000' Palestinians protested at the Gaza border.
Human Rights Watch states Officials Green-Lighted Shooting of Unarmed Demonstrators.
Protests in Gaza are leading to many deaths and injuries among Palestinians, yet Israel has faced little criticism.
The political price of besieging or blockading urban areas like Gaza is rising because it is impossible to prevent information about the sufferings of those trapped inside such an enclaves becoming public.
The Israeli Journalists Association on Saturday penned a letter to the IDF Chief of Staff demanding an investigation into the death of a Palestinian journalist Yaser Murtaja killed while covering Friday's protests in Gaza. Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman accused Murtaja of operating a drone despite lack of evidence.
Yaser Murtaja was among 9 killed as '20,000' Palestinians protested at the Gaza border.
Human Rights Watch states Officials Green-Lighted Shooting of Unarmed Demonstrators.
Protests in Gaza are leading to many deaths and injuries among Palestinians, yet Israel has faced little criticism.
The political price of besieging or blockading urban areas like Gaza is rising because it is impossible to prevent information about the sufferings of those trapped inside such an enclaves becoming public.
Given that Israel withdrew from the Rome Statute, this is a moot point, no?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:51 PM on April 10, 2018
posted by Thorzdad at 5:51 PM on April 10, 2018
Mod note: Changed the title per the OP. Everyone, please remember that this is a fraught issue and not everyone’s mind is changeable on a lot of these topics. Please try to bail out of disagreements rather than escalating - there is no degree of escalation that is going to improve the conversation.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:06 PM on April 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:06 PM on April 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
Source for title: 10 dead 1000 wounded.
posted by adamvasco at 6:07 PM on April 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 6:07 PM on April 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
The frustrating thing here is that actions like this just remove the possibility of peace - any kind of peace - further and further away.
I despair of the future in this area, really I do.
posted by smoke at 6:40 PM on April 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
I despair of the future in this area, really I do.
posted by smoke at 6:40 PM on April 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
Netanyahu's on the ropes. I don't know of getting rid of him would lead to any particular breakthroughs, but it couldn't hurt.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:23 PM on April 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:23 PM on April 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I despair of the future in this area, really I do.I agree. I really can't see a way towards a meaningful, just peace. Is there a way to move past this constant decades-long cycle of violence? There simply doesn't seem to be any path forward.
Perhaps some truly courageous leaders will emerge with the bravery and strength to lead the factions together, but I really can't see it happening.
It's very, very sad.
posted by Combat Wombat at 7:27 PM on April 10, 2018
It's more than just leaders, though. Every year the "settlements" get more and more dug in - how do you manage that? It' s only going to get more difficult over the passage of time.
posted by smoke at 7:47 PM on April 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by smoke at 7:47 PM on April 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
yet Israel has faced little criticism.
In trying to make a non-inflammatory comment I certainly see why this topic "does not work" on mifi. But even with as carefully crafted post as this this line slipped in seems disingenuous. Israel is getting a lot of criticism, from the usual biased sources and from many generally pro-Israel sources. There are also criticism of Hamas being opportunistic sending civilians into a dangerous situation for headlines sake. Gaza could be the Riviera of the area with the residents living very nice lives and it does seem like the situation is externally manipulated. I suspect that the shootings are a strategic choice to mitigate a major breach of the border and the massive toll if hundreds of worked up people crossed the border. A bad choice to prevent a vastly worse possibility.
posted by sammyo at 7:52 PM on April 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
In trying to make a non-inflammatory comment I certainly see why this topic "does not work" on mifi. But even with as carefully crafted post as this this line slipped in seems disingenuous. Israel is getting a lot of criticism, from the usual biased sources and from many generally pro-Israel sources. There are also criticism of Hamas being opportunistic sending civilians into a dangerous situation for headlines sake. Gaza could be the Riviera of the area with the residents living very nice lives and it does seem like the situation is externally manipulated. I suspect that the shootings are a strategic choice to mitigate a major breach of the border and the massive toll if hundreds of worked up people crossed the border. A bad choice to prevent a vastly worse possibility.
posted by sammyo at 7:52 PM on April 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
Every year the "settlements" get more and more dug in - how do you manage that?
The thing is - there's a lot of places where governments have seized property, even ancestral property, without recompense. My family no longer has access to its property in Nicaragua - seized by the Sandinistas during the revolution. That makes me sad and angry, but there isn't really a big push to give those lands back. I don't think it will ever be settled - or that we will ever be made whole and welcomed back. But the reason it's not an international human rights crisis is because other countries stepped up and accepted refugees. The United States had open arms to all fleeing the Sandinistas, and so there's thriving groups of Nicaraguan-Americans here.
One thing that seems so terrible about the Israel/Gaza situation is not that people are being or have been made refugees by a war - that happens all over - but rather that with the closure of Israel's and Egypt's borders, no one can leave. There's 2 million people in the Gaza strip - divided by the countries of the United Nations, that's totally a manageable population to absorb, and Egypt might be willing to open its borders if the people leaving were absorbed by other countries.
posted by corb at 7:54 PM on April 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
The thing is - there's a lot of places where governments have seized property, even ancestral property, without recompense. My family no longer has access to its property in Nicaragua - seized by the Sandinistas during the revolution. That makes me sad and angry, but there isn't really a big push to give those lands back. I don't think it will ever be settled - or that we will ever be made whole and welcomed back. But the reason it's not an international human rights crisis is because other countries stepped up and accepted refugees. The United States had open arms to all fleeing the Sandinistas, and so there's thriving groups of Nicaraguan-Americans here.
One thing that seems so terrible about the Israel/Gaza situation is not that people are being or have been made refugees by a war - that happens all over - but rather that with the closure of Israel's and Egypt's borders, no one can leave. There's 2 million people in the Gaza strip - divided by the countries of the United Nations, that's totally a manageable population to absorb, and Egypt might be willing to open its borders if the people leaving were absorbed by other countries.
posted by corb at 7:54 PM on April 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
The first link, to Ben White's OpEd, is tendentious and one-sided. White has a bad history of promoting and endorsing antisemitic authors and has at least flirted with antisemitism himself. Compare White's editorial to Reuters' account, on which it is probably based.
Here's what White says:
Hamas wants to breach the barrier because it wants to kill civilians. It is using thick smoke and human waves because it wants Israel to kill civilians. Israel absolutely has to meet the challenge of respecting human life even under these circumstances, but the reason it's faced with the challenge is that its enemy doesn't respect human life at all.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:32 PM on April 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
Here's what White says:
Yesterday, the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC) warned that the use of live fire by Israeli soldiers against Palestinian protesters in the occupied Gaza Strip could “constitute crimes under the Rome Statute”.In fact Fatou Bensouda warned both sides in specific terms. From Reuters:
“Violence against civilians - in a situation such as the one prevailing in Gaza – could constitute crimes ... as could the use of civilian presence for the purpose of shielding military activities,” Bensouda said.I'm very concerned about Israel's rules of engagement in this situation - as are almost all the Israeli accounts I've read - but Israel has a fundamental duty to maintain the Gaza barrier. It is Israeli civilians' only passive protection from Hamas-enabled terrorists, and since its construction (as part of the Oslo Accords between Israel and the Palestine Authority) almost all terror attacks against Israel have come from within the West Bank. Hundreds of peoples' lives, both Israeli and Palestinian, must have been saved as a result.
Bensouda said she would record “any instance of incitement or resort to unlawful force” by either side in the conflict.
[all elisions in the original - JiA]
Hamas wants to breach the barrier because it wants to kill civilians. It is using thick smoke and human waves because it wants Israel to kill civilians. Israel absolutely has to meet the challenge of respecting human life even under these circumstances, but the reason it's faced with the challenge is that its enemy doesn't respect human life at all.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:32 PM on April 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
Murtaja was wearing a vest marked “PRESS” when shot. He was filming a nurse, a doctor, and a 12-year old student who were protesting.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:45 PM on April 10, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:45 PM on April 10, 2018 [21 favorites]
I went to services at an NYC congregation last Friday, and for Mourner’s Kaddish, I read the names of 18 Palestinians who had been killed in Gaza.
posted by andoatnp at 9:58 PM on April 10, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by andoatnp at 9:58 PM on April 10, 2018 [18 favorites]
I think a lot of people would like to see that barrier lowered, Joe, for a lot of different reasons - including Hamas. This is not to disagree with your point, but 'infiltration' is not the only reason why people want that barrier to come down, and was not the only reason thousands of people gathered inside the Gaza Strip to protest - though it does seem to be the reason the armed forces of Israel are using to justify live ammunition etc.
If only each side were as invested in assigning blame to themselves as they are the other party. :(
posted by smoke at 10:10 PM on April 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
If only each side were as invested in assigning blame to themselves as they are the other party. :(
posted by smoke at 10:10 PM on April 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
One thing that seems so terrible about the Israel/Gaza situation is not that people are being or have been made refugees by a war - that happens all over - but rather that with the closure of Israel's and Egypt's borders, no one can leave. There's 2 million people in the Gaza strip - divided by the countries of the United Nations, that's totally a manageable population to absorb, and Egypt might be willing to open its borders if the people leaving were absorbed by other countries.
That comes perilously close to arguing that a more successful program of ethnic cleansing is what's needed. "If only the Palestinians could successfully be driven from their ancestral homelands, instead of indignantly resisting, it would make things so much easier" is pretty reprehensible.
Was the Sandinista revolution an ethnically based one? I thought it was about tossing out the corrupt regime who got rich running a kleptocratic banana republic to the detriment of the citizenry.
This is a matter for American taxpayers but consider closely, because in the end we're the ones footing the bill, both in American tax dollars and UN political cover.
Black South Africans who were there during the anti-apartheid struggle have commented that what's going on in Gaza is worse than Apartheid; at its worst the S.A. government never turned the full military might of the army against them. Black South Africans under Apartheid were never bombed from jets, or had to face down tanks.
At some point, the American taxpayer is going to have to come to a reckoning over what our tax dollars support and make possible. And start calling it Apartheid.
Because we know how to deal with Apartheid states.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:55 PM on April 10, 2018 [34 favorites]
That comes perilously close to arguing that a more successful program of ethnic cleansing is what's needed. "If only the Palestinians could successfully be driven from their ancestral homelands, instead of indignantly resisting, it would make things so much easier" is pretty reprehensible.
Was the Sandinista revolution an ethnically based one? I thought it was about tossing out the corrupt regime who got rich running a kleptocratic banana republic to the detriment of the citizenry.
This is a matter for American taxpayers but consider closely, because in the end we're the ones footing the bill, both in American tax dollars and UN political cover.
Black South Africans who were there during the anti-apartheid struggle have commented that what's going on in Gaza is worse than Apartheid; at its worst the S.A. government never turned the full military might of the army against them. Black South Africans under Apartheid were never bombed from jets, or had to face down tanks.
At some point, the American taxpayer is going to have to come to a reckoning over what our tax dollars support and make possible. And start calling it Apartheid.
Because we know how to deal with Apartheid states.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:55 PM on April 10, 2018 [34 favorites]
Murtaja was wearing a vest marked “PRESS” when shot.
Unfortunately Press jackets don't mean anything anymore, in 2015 a Palestinian man wearing Press jacket stabbed an Israeli soldier.
posted by xdvesper at 11:18 PM on April 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately Press jackets don't mean anything anymore, in 2015 a Palestinian man wearing Press jacket stabbed an Israeli soldier.
posted by xdvesper at 11:18 PM on April 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
being opportunistic sending civilians into a dangerous situation for headlines sake
Umm... yes, and? This is what non-violent protest looks like. It is what MLK did to push for desegregation and human rights. The freedom riders. Gandhi, too.
If the oppressed stop firing rockets and planting bombs, they don't just start sucking it up and accept the unjust status quo. They do stuff like this. For headlines.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:43 PM on April 10, 2018 [30 favorites]
Umm... yes, and? This is what non-violent protest looks like. It is what MLK did to push for desegregation and human rights. The freedom riders. Gandhi, too.
If the oppressed stop firing rockets and planting bombs, they don't just start sucking it up and accept the unjust status quo. They do stuff like this. For headlines.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:43 PM on April 10, 2018 [30 favorites]
There are also criticism of Hamas being opportunistic sending civilians into a dangerous situation for headlines sake.
This is what the usual right-wing shitheads have said about every social and environmental action I've attended in Canada going back thirty years. Of course, the difference is, most of my co-participants have been white and roughly middle-class. In the eyes of most of the people who say this kind of shit, Palestinians aren't even fully human.
posted by klanawa at 12:01 AM on April 11, 2018 [29 favorites]
This is what the usual right-wing shitheads have said about every social and environmental action I've attended in Canada going back thirty years. Of course, the difference is, most of my co-participants have been white and roughly middle-class. In the eyes of most of the people who say this kind of shit, Palestinians aren't even fully human.
posted by klanawa at 12:01 AM on April 11, 2018 [29 favorites]
The thing is - there's a lot of places where governments have seized property, even ancestral property, without recompense. My family no longer has access to its property in Nicaragua - seized by the Sandinistas during the revolution. That makes me sad and angry, but there isn't really a big push to give those lands back.
Here in NZ we're in the process of cleaning up the mess our forefathers made stealing Māori land - these sorts of issues don't go away, they just get worse and harder to resolve as problems become multi-generational - in our case it's costing billions of dollars, money well worth spending. Solving these problems require more than just money, they require good will, the expression of genuine remorse, cultural sensitivity ....
IMHO Israel is running out of time to fix these past sins, those people in Gaza and the West bank who still remember their grandparents' lost homes are increasing exponentially into every generation, making this harder and more expensive to solve as time goes by.
posted by mbo at 12:47 AM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
Here in NZ we're in the process of cleaning up the mess our forefathers made stealing Māori land - these sorts of issues don't go away, they just get worse and harder to resolve as problems become multi-generational - in our case it's costing billions of dollars, money well worth spending. Solving these problems require more than just money, they require good will, the expression of genuine remorse, cultural sensitivity ....
IMHO Israel is running out of time to fix these past sins, those people in Gaza and the West bank who still remember their grandparents' lost homes are increasing exponentially into every generation, making this harder and more expensive to solve as time goes by.
posted by mbo at 12:47 AM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
"At some point, the American taxpayer is going to have to come to a reckoning over what our tax dollars support and make possible."
Really?
I mean, that reckoning hasn't really come in all the other things that tax dollars have supported since the US got involved in foreign interventions and arms trafficking (that the political class calls 'military aid' sometimes). Unless you count 9/11 as a 'reckoning', which one could argue (or 'blowback' in the terminology of the 'intelligence community').
posted by el io at 1:06 AM on April 11, 2018
Really?
I mean, that reckoning hasn't really come in all the other things that tax dollars have supported since the US got involved in foreign interventions and arms trafficking (that the political class calls 'military aid' sometimes). Unless you count 9/11 as a 'reckoning', which one could argue (or 'blowback' in the terminology of the 'intelligence community').
posted by el io at 1:06 AM on April 11, 2018
so how does the u s government condemn syria for its actions and not condemn israel?
i blame the major powers of this world for cynically choosing sides in the middle east in various conflict - this region would be a lot better off if we stopped interfering with it
posted by pyramid termite at 1:59 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
i blame the major powers of this world for cynically choosing sides in the middle east in various conflict - this region would be a lot better off if we stopped interfering with it
posted by pyramid termite at 1:59 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
Unfortunately Press jackets don't mean anything anymore, in 2015 a Palestinian man wearing Press jacket stabbed an Israeli soldier.
This still doesn't mean Murtaja should have been murdered. And he was murdered. He wasn't friendly fire or whatever they call that shit these days. He was killed while doing his job, full stop.
posted by Kitteh at 3:04 AM on April 11, 2018 [15 favorites]
This still doesn't mean Murtaja should have been murdered. And he was murdered. He wasn't friendly fire or whatever they call that shit these days. He was killed while doing his job, full stop.
posted by Kitteh at 3:04 AM on April 11, 2018 [15 favorites]
Friendly reminder that with 2 million residents, Gaza is denser than Hong Kong and is the world largest open-air prison. Christ, what a humanitarian disaster.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:38 AM on April 11, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:38 AM on April 11, 2018 [19 favorites]
In one sense I don't really care who is behind these protests or what their aims are. As long as it's a fact that the protestors are masses of unarmed civilians (and even if they are giving cover for armed terrorists) sanctioning the use of live fire against them is absolutely reprehensible, full stop. It seriously undermines the legitimacy of the power behind those killings and if the response isn't mass outrage leading to regime change then it should absolutely incur severe international sanctions. Some state actions are just flatly unacceptable regardless of the reasoning behind them.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:44 AM on April 11, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:44 AM on April 11, 2018 [29 favorites]
IMHO Israel is running out of time to fix these past sins, those people in Gaza and the West bank who still remember their grandparents' lost homes are increasing exponentially into every generation, making this harder and more expensive to solve as time goes by.
What about the Jews' lost homes?
A nice lady I knew just passed away; she was born in Hebron. The family of a rabbi I know came from there too. Their family homes weren't in the sliver presently under Israeli control; I don't know if it would be practical for them to visit because, you know. They'd very likely be killed.
A while back I had dinner with a guy who remembers peering through the sandbags surrounding the entrances to Jerusalem's old city, where his family had lived before being driven out in 1948. It's entirely possible that you can see them in these photos. He's relatively lucky: he can visit Jerusalem and stand where his family home might have been, before the Jordanians levelled it.
Jews were driven out of Jerusalem in 1948. They were driven out of Hebron in 1936. They were driven out of Gaza in 1929 - although to be fair I don't think there were many living there at the time, after centuries of Egyptian persecution. If you want to compare one party to the Maoris, think of this: Jews are indigenous to Israel; Jews have been consistently persecuted by the colonial powers ruling the region; Jews have had the rules changed on them over and over again. Their dispossession is so complete that well-meaning people like yourself don't even consider that Jews had grandparents of their own, with their own lives and homes and history.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. At that time the Jews were, once again, driven out. It wasn't by a colonial power this time: Israel did it itself, because it knew fine well that any Jews remaining in Gaza would be slaughtered. But those Jews had homes too, you know.
I don't want to make this a lot of whattaboutery, so consider this: Palestinians are actors too. They have the ability to choose whether they're going to continue to treat this conflict as a zero-sum game, where Jewish rights are extinguished to make way for Arab ones, or whether they're going to accommodate a Jewish presence. Grant that, and solutions to the other problems will fall into place.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:37 AM on April 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
What about the Jews' lost homes?
A nice lady I knew just passed away; she was born in Hebron. The family of a rabbi I know came from there too. Their family homes weren't in the sliver presently under Israeli control; I don't know if it would be practical for them to visit because, you know. They'd very likely be killed.
A while back I had dinner with a guy who remembers peering through the sandbags surrounding the entrances to Jerusalem's old city, where his family had lived before being driven out in 1948. It's entirely possible that you can see them in these photos. He's relatively lucky: he can visit Jerusalem and stand where his family home might have been, before the Jordanians levelled it.
Jews were driven out of Jerusalem in 1948. They were driven out of Hebron in 1936. They were driven out of Gaza in 1929 - although to be fair I don't think there were many living there at the time, after centuries of Egyptian persecution. If you want to compare one party to the Maoris, think of this: Jews are indigenous to Israel; Jews have been consistently persecuted by the colonial powers ruling the region; Jews have had the rules changed on them over and over again. Their dispossession is so complete that well-meaning people like yourself don't even consider that Jews had grandparents of their own, with their own lives and homes and history.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. At that time the Jews were, once again, driven out. It wasn't by a colonial power this time: Israel did it itself, because it knew fine well that any Jews remaining in Gaza would be slaughtered. But those Jews had homes too, you know.
I don't want to make this a lot of whattaboutery, so consider this: Palestinians are actors too. They have the ability to choose whether they're going to continue to treat this conflict as a zero-sum game, where Jewish rights are extinguished to make way for Arab ones, or whether they're going to accommodate a Jewish presence. Grant that, and solutions to the other problems will fall into place.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:37 AM on April 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
A while back I had dinner with a guy who remembers peering through the sandbags surrounding the entrances to Jerusalem's old city, where his family had lived before being driven out in 1948.
I have a list of hundreds of Palestinian villages that were depopulated by Israelis during that war. Wars are bad and no one should have to leave their homes, but in 1948 towns that were attacked were overwhelmingly Palestinian towns.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:52 AM on April 11, 2018 [18 favorites]
I have a list of hundreds of Palestinian villages that were depopulated by Israelis during that war. Wars are bad and no one should have to leave their homes, but in 1948 towns that were attacked were overwhelmingly Palestinian towns.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:52 AM on April 11, 2018 [18 favorites]
IMO Murtaja was almost certainly hit accidentally. I can't lay my hands on it now, but I read an account from his companion, who didn't realise his friend had been shot because the smoke was so thick. That doesn't let Israel or the sniper off the hook, though.
As I see it, the questions are:
• Should Israel be defending its border at all?
• If so, could it use less lethal techniques?
• If it has to use snipers, should it have different rules of engagement?
Assuming Murtaja was hit hy an Israeli sniper, the questions are:
• Was the sniper following the RoE?
• If so, were they justified in shooting Murtaja?
• If they were not justified, did the sniper intend to shoot him?
• If the shooting was accidental, what caused it?
None of the latter questions are things we could possibly know at this point. Some people on each side are running around saying "the shooting was totally justified / unjustifiable" but they're assuming all sorts of things we may only find out after an extensive inquiry, and likely not even then.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:43 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
As I see it, the questions are:
• Should Israel be defending its border at all?
• If so, could it use less lethal techniques?
• If it has to use snipers, should it have different rules of engagement?
Assuming Murtaja was hit hy an Israeli sniper, the questions are:
• Was the sniper following the RoE?
• If so, were they justified in shooting Murtaja?
• If they were not justified, did the sniper intend to shoot him?
• If the shooting was accidental, what caused it?
None of the latter questions are things we could possibly know at this point. Some people on each side are running around saying "the shooting was totally justified / unjustifiable" but they're assuming all sorts of things we may only find out after an extensive inquiry, and likely not even then.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:43 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
IMO Murtaja was almost certainly hit accidentally.
According to the IDF's own Twitter spokesperson: "Yesterday we saw 30,000 people; we arrived prepared and with precise reinforcements. Nothing was carried out uncontrolled; everything was accurate and measured, and we know where every bullet landed"
posted by indubitable at 5:48 AM on April 11, 2018 [17 favorites]
According to the IDF's own Twitter spokesperson: "Yesterday we saw 30,000 people; we arrived prepared and with precise reinforcements. Nothing was carried out uncontrolled; everything was accurate and measured, and we know where every bullet landed"
posted by indubitable at 5:48 AM on April 11, 2018 [17 favorites]
This is the almost predictable outcome of the fantasy which has been adopted as the Palestinian policy of the current Likud-Shas-Y’Israel Betyenu-etc. coalition. Likud’s long-stated platform and the settler parties’ dream is to push the Palestinians out of the West Bank and reclaim Greater Israel. (Make Israel Greater Again?)
Last year, the army instructed their spokesmen not to use the term “West Bank” deriding it as a “Palestinian construction” and instead to refer to the area as the occupied territories. Continued expansion of settlements in the West Bank (now almost universally referred to as Judea and Samaria by those on the right), destroying locals’ homes and farms, piecemeal pushing the locals into smaller and smaller, yes, ghettos in the West Bank and Gaza, expanding exclusion zones, and building great, beautiful walls, the Israelis will be left with more and more people outside pushing up against the barriers. What solution does the current Israeli government have for defending their territory? Now, we see.
posted by sudogeek at 5:49 AM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
Last year, the army instructed their spokesmen not to use the term “West Bank” deriding it as a “Palestinian construction” and instead to refer to the area as the occupied territories. Continued expansion of settlements in the West Bank (now almost universally referred to as Judea and Samaria by those on the right), destroying locals’ homes and farms, piecemeal pushing the locals into smaller and smaller, yes, ghettos in the West Bank and Gaza, expanding exclusion zones, and building great, beautiful walls, the Israelis will be left with more and more people outside pushing up against the barriers. What solution does the current Israeli government have for defending their territory? Now, we see.
posted by sudogeek at 5:49 AM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
“Nothing was carried out uncontrolled; everything was accurate and measured, and we know where every bullet landed,” Israel’s military said in a tweet on Saturday. However, when asked to clarify, it would not provide a specific number of people it believed its forces had struck, and the tweet was later deleted.
posted by adamvasco at 5:49 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 5:49 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
Jews are indigenous to Israel
That's a disingenuous and frankly ignorant argument. It doesn't much matter where your ancestors may have come from, 2000 years ago, if they've largely been somewhere else in the interim. One of my ancestors was a Quaker, who was persecuted for his faith, fined, imprisoned, and eventually ended up going to Pennsyvlania. I know exactly where he lived; doesn't give me the right to go there and claim that I should own it. (And all the available evidence indicates that Palestinians are indigenous to Israel, as well, and are largely the descendants of Jews who converted first to Christianity and then to Islam.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:05 AM on April 11, 2018 [19 favorites]
That's a disingenuous and frankly ignorant argument. It doesn't much matter where your ancestors may have come from, 2000 years ago, if they've largely been somewhere else in the interim. One of my ancestors was a Quaker, who was persecuted for his faith, fined, imprisoned, and eventually ended up going to Pennsyvlania. I know exactly where he lived; doesn't give me the right to go there and claim that I should own it. (And all the available evidence indicates that Palestinians are indigenous to Israel, as well, and are largely the descendants of Jews who converted first to Christianity and then to Islam.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:05 AM on April 11, 2018 [19 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, please stick to discussing the post topic rather than making this a general fight about whether Israelis or Palestinians deserve to live in the area at all.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:15 AM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:15 AM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
If you don't want to get into "what about territory", bringing up grievances dating back seventy years isn't a great way to start.
The focus of this post is what's happening right now, and the reality is what's happening right now is that the Israeli military and body politic has orders of magnitude more power on every level than Palestinians, and what they are doing - right now - is reprehensible and disgusting and will only embed more violence and hatred and justification for civilian violence for years and years to come. Its shortsighted, unsustainable, prideful, and foolish. Likud and Co cannot "win" their war this way, it is literally unwinnable, and the global tide will turn eventually.
Defending the firing of live ammunition at civilians is not a place I want to be at, that's for sure.
posted by smoke at 6:18 AM on April 11, 2018 [28 favorites]
The focus of this post is what's happening right now, and the reality is what's happening right now is that the Israeli military and body politic has orders of magnitude more power on every level than Palestinians, and what they are doing - right now - is reprehensible and disgusting and will only embed more violence and hatred and justification for civilian violence for years and years to come. Its shortsighted, unsustainable, prideful, and foolish. Likud and Co cannot "win" their war this way, it is literally unwinnable, and the global tide will turn eventually.
Defending the firing of live ammunition at civilians is not a place I want to be at, that's for sure.
posted by smoke at 6:18 AM on April 11, 2018 [28 favorites]
In the aftermath of this latest atrocity, a video of a similar incident from last December has leaked: Israel Confirms Video of Sniper Shooting Unarmed Palestinian, as Soldiers Cheer, Is Genuine
Despite the army’s statement of disapproval, senior Israeli officials went out of their way to defend the behavior of the soldiers caught on video laughing and cheering.posted by indubitable at 6:24 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman told reporters that he, too, celebrated the shooting, even if the fact that it was recorded was unfortunate. “The Gaza sniper deserves a decoration, and the photographer a demerit,” he said.
“We have reached a level of insanity and delusion,” Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan told Israeli radio. “To take a situation from the battlefield, when soldiers are under stress and explosive devices are being thrown at them and attempts are being made to infiltrate, and to take their human response and judge them from the armchairs in Tel Aviv?”
“What’s all the fuss about?” asked Oren Hazan, from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party. “Anyone who approaches the fence, armed or not, is gonna get it. As it should be!”
Their dispossession is so complete
Wrong tense, surely, Joe? The Israelis seem to be holding all the cards at this point.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:41 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Wrong tense, surely, Joe? The Israelis seem to be holding all the cards at this point.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:41 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
There are solidarity protests and actions taking place all over the world. You too can get involved. The 15th of May Nakba day protests will be the next big round, if there's not another massacre before then demanding snap actions.
Also, all the speeches at the Land Day protest I heard advocated for a one-state solution where the genocide of Palestinians is halted and everyone can live together in peace. An end to the racist ethnostate.
Resistance is justified while Palestine is occupied.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 6:48 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
Also, all the speeches at the Land Day protest I heard advocated for a one-state solution where the genocide of Palestinians is halted and everyone can live together in peace. An end to the racist ethnostate.
Resistance is justified while Palestine is occupied.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 6:48 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
None of the latter questions are things we could possibly know at this point. Some people on each side are running around saying "the shooting was totally justified / unjustifiable" but they're assuming all sorts of things we may only find out after an extensive inquiry, and likely not even then.
A big part of the problem is that when these questions go unaddressed for a while, this will be replaced by some new horror, and the state power wins by default.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:48 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
A big part of the problem is that when these questions go unaddressed for a while, this will be replaced by some new horror, and the state power wins by default.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:48 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
.
posted by ellieBOA at 6:56 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ellieBOA at 6:56 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Which is just one of many reasons why states should never be given a pass on doing this sort of thing under any circumstances. I'm in favor of strict liability for nation states when it comes to sanctioned killing of civilians by the military. If you're a leader who thinks they have a good enough reason to order such things, it better be good enough that you're willing to personally spend the rest of your life in prison afterward, and it should be a foregone conclusion that you will do so.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:00 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:00 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
It’s hard to have a discussion of what’s happening now without talking about things that happened seventy-plus years ago; all I can say though that lens is “murdering civilians is a reprehensible war crime.”
But then that immediately transfers to people (who I really hope are fellow Jews) referring to Israel point-blank as “a racist ethnostate” and Jewish indigeneity as “frankly ignorant,” the reasons it’s more complicated than that go back seventy-plus years, and talking about them in this thread is a derail. So what’s the best way to proceed here?
Here’s one attempt: I think it’s unlikely at best that a one-state solution will result in “everyone [living] together in peace.” I think Jews are in fact ethnoreligiously indigenous to Israel and the Middle East, and I think that matters most when people are trying to kill us - if I showed up in Russia and said hey, I’m Russian, the response as it was a hundred years ago would be “no, you’re Jewish,” and that issue goes deeper than religious observance. I think the conflict between Jews and Muslims in the Middle East isn’t going to end once the occupation of the West Bank (G-d willing) ends. I think it’s naive at best and unconsciously antisemitic at worst to believe the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state will solve more problems than it causes. I REALLY think it’s impossible to map this conflict onto other things that have happened other places (American civil rights movements in particular).
And I think shooting civilians is a reprehensible war crime.
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 7:15 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
But then that immediately transfers to people (who I really hope are fellow Jews) referring to Israel point-blank as “a racist ethnostate” and Jewish indigeneity as “frankly ignorant,” the reasons it’s more complicated than that go back seventy-plus years, and talking about them in this thread is a derail. So what’s the best way to proceed here?
Here’s one attempt: I think it’s unlikely at best that a one-state solution will result in “everyone [living] together in peace.” I think Jews are in fact ethnoreligiously indigenous to Israel and the Middle East, and I think that matters most when people are trying to kill us - if I showed up in Russia and said hey, I’m Russian, the response as it was a hundred years ago would be “no, you’re Jewish,” and that issue goes deeper than religious observance. I think the conflict between Jews and Muslims in the Middle East isn’t going to end once the occupation of the West Bank (G-d willing) ends. I think it’s naive at best and unconsciously antisemitic at worst to believe the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state will solve more problems than it causes. I REALLY think it’s impossible to map this conflict onto other things that have happened other places (American civil rights movements in particular).
And I think shooting civilians is a reprehensible war crime.
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 7:15 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
Violence has been going on for over 2000 years in the Middle East. I cannot see it changing in a hurry.
posted by Burn_IT at 7:19 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Burn_IT at 7:19 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not Jewish. I'm also happy calling Australia a racist ethnostate.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 7:23 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by AnhydrousLove at 7:23 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
So what’s the best way to proceed here?
Literally writing hundreds of years of indigenous, non-Jewish Palestinian history out of their own stories doesn't seem to be a good start.
Here’s one attempt
I don't think anyone here is discussing a one-state solution or the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state, though. The leaders of Israel's government have made it extremely clear that a two-state solution is off the table, and that the instead of a democratic Jewish state, the choice will between a democratic state and a Jewish one.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:32 AM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
Literally writing hundreds of years of indigenous, non-Jewish Palestinian history out of their own stories doesn't seem to be a good start.
Here’s one attempt
I don't think anyone here is discussing a one-state solution or the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state, though. The leaders of Israel's government have made it extremely clear that a two-state solution is off the table, and that the instead of a democratic Jewish state, the choice will between a democratic state and a Jewish one.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:32 AM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
New Yorker: Watching a Fellow-Journalist Die in Gaza
Middle East Eye: 'No innocent people in Gaza' says Israeli defence minister [Avigdor Lieberman]
Democracy Now: “Apartheid, Rogue, Terrorist State”: Glenn Greenwald on Israel’s Murder of Gaza Protesters, Reporter
Electronic Intifada: Israel’s cold-blooded killings in the Gaza ghetto
Haaretz: 7 Jewish Activists Arrested at Schumer’s NY Office After Calling on Him to Condemn Gaza Deaths
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:35 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
Middle East Eye: 'No innocent people in Gaza' says Israeli defence minister [Avigdor Lieberman]
Democracy Now: “Apartheid, Rogue, Terrorist State”: Glenn Greenwald on Israel’s Murder of Gaza Protesters, Reporter
Electronic Intifada: Israel’s cold-blooded killings in the Gaza ghetto
Haaretz: 7 Jewish Activists Arrested at Schumer’s NY Office After Calling on Him to Condemn Gaza Deaths
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:35 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
At which point we return to the question of Apartheid.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:35 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:35 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
I mean, as long as you’re also calling America, Germany, Russia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia (to name a few) racist ethnostates, go for it. Most people I encounter who say that aren’t as consistent as you are.
Zombieflanders, I was referring to Anhydrouslove’s comment above:”All the speeches I heard advocated for a one-state solution where the genocide of Palestinians is halted and everyone can live together in peace. An end to the racist ethnostate.” And I think Palestinian Muslims and Christians are indigenous to the Middle East too, of course.
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 7:38 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
Zombieflanders, I was referring to Anhydrouslove’s comment above:”All the speeches I heard advocated for a one-state solution where the genocide of Palestinians is halted and everyone can live together in peace. An end to the racist ethnostate.” And I think Palestinian Muslims and Christians are indigenous to the Middle East too, of course.
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 7:38 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
(Though neither Netanyahu nor the Hamas folks care much about what I personally think, of course.)
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 7:40 AM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 7:40 AM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
as long as you’re also calling America, Germany, Russia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia (to name a few) racist ethnostates, go for it
Israel alone among self-described liberal democracies is also an explicitly ethnic-nationalist state. The formulation of "Jewish and democratic" inevitably privileges the former at the expense of the latter (just as much as it would if the USA explicitly described itself as "Christian and democratic", or "white and democratic", which it doesn't). I'd go so far as to say that ethnic nationalism is fundamentally at odds with the idea of liberal democracy; it seems that if the bloody warfare of the 20th century--from the slaughter of Armenians by Turks to the horrors of Hitler's Germany to the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans in the 1990's--ought to have taught us one lesson, that's surely it.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:18 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
Israel alone among self-described liberal democracies is also an explicitly ethnic-nationalist state. The formulation of "Jewish and democratic" inevitably privileges the former at the expense of the latter (just as much as it would if the USA explicitly described itself as "Christian and democratic", or "white and democratic", which it doesn't). I'd go so far as to say that ethnic nationalism is fundamentally at odds with the idea of liberal democracy; it seems that if the bloody warfare of the 20th century--from the slaughter of Armenians by Turks to the horrors of Hitler's Germany to the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans in the 1990's--ought to have taught us one lesson, that's surely it.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:18 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that the current leaders of the US very much think of their country as white & Christian, without being overly concerned with the democratic element. They regularly say as much in different terms. Those who aren't leaders right now usually just advocate for policies which lead to very similar effects while couching their rhetoric more effectively. The same practices apply to most so-called "democracies" or otherwise where the populace is denied true democracy by capitalism.
It may be fundamentally at odds with some of the avowed ideals of liberal democracy, but in practice this is the situation in far far too many countries, as I understand things. Currently the Israeli state is just a little more open & aggressive about it than most.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:41 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
It may be fundamentally at odds with some of the avowed ideals of liberal democracy, but in practice this is the situation in far far too many countries, as I understand things. Currently the Israeli state is just a little more open & aggressive about it than most.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:41 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Israel alone among self-described liberal democracies is also an explicitly ethnic-nationalist state.
Japan? Not sure whether it describes itself as "liberal," but honestly referring to the current Israeli government as "liberal" (whether it's Hasbarists, idealists, or outside analysts doing so) is a stretch.
But of course, "the bloody warfare of the 20th century" is a big reason Israel was designated as "a Jewish state." Someone had to put all those refugees somewhere, and the countries that murdered and expelled them sure weren't interested in re-assimilating them, and neither was pretty much anywhere else, so.....
Ethnic nationalism is fundamentally at odds with the idea of liberal democracy is at the heart of this. Israel is becoming a Middle Eastern ethnostate like its neighbors, none of which are especially liberal or democratic. I desperately wish I could see a path towards it staying liberal, democratic, and a safe haven for Jews to self-determine. I can't, and a lot of people smarter than I am can't either.
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 8:43 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
Japan? Not sure whether it describes itself as "liberal," but honestly referring to the current Israeli government as "liberal" (whether it's Hasbarists, idealists, or outside analysts doing so) is a stretch.
But of course, "the bloody warfare of the 20th century" is a big reason Israel was designated as "a Jewish state." Someone had to put all those refugees somewhere, and the countries that murdered and expelled them sure weren't interested in re-assimilating them, and neither was pretty much anywhere else, so.....
Ethnic nationalism is fundamentally at odds with the idea of liberal democracy is at the heart of this. Israel is becoming a Middle Eastern ethnostate like its neighbors, none of which are especially liberal or democratic. I desperately wish I could see a path towards it staying liberal, democratic, and a safe haven for Jews to self-determine. I can't, and a lot of people smarter than I am can't either.
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 8:43 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
but honestly referring to the current Israeli government as "liberal" (whether it's Hasbarists, idealists, or outside analysts doing so) is a stretch.
The "liberal" in "liberal democracy" has nothing to do with "liberal" in the sense of, for example, the Democrats.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:00 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
The "liberal" in "liberal democracy" has nothing to do with "liberal" in the sense of, for example, the Democrats.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:00 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
I know.
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 9:04 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by fast ein Maedchen at 9:04 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Haaretz: Slain Gaza Journalist, Branded Hamas Militant by Israel, Received U.S. Grant
posted by zombieflanders at 9:07 AM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman told reporters on Tuesday that Murtaja had been on the Hamas payroll since 2011 and held a rank similar to captain. He said Murtaja had used a drone to collect intelligence on Israeli forces along the border.Lieberman Accused Palestinian Photographer Killed in Gaza of Operating Drone Despite Lack of Evidence
Lieberman provided no evidence to support his claims.
Speaking about Yaser Murtaja, a 30-year-old photographer who was shot and killed during the protests, Lieberman had claimed that he was operating a drone above IDF soldiers when he was shot.Lieberman is one of the leading members of Israel's government, and he's still lying repeatedly even in the face of his own military's investigation. Not that this is surprising, since much like his boss, he's a proud bigot and power-hungry right-wing thug.
“I don’t know who he is, a photographer, not a photographer – whoever operates drones above IDF soldiers needs to understand that he is endangering himself,” said Lieberman, speaking about Murtaja’s death.
A military investigation into the matter, however, is yet to find any evidence that Murtaja had operated a drone. No reports were received of drones used in a way that could endanger soldiers at any of the focal points of the demonstration on Friday.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:07 AM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
Offered in the spirit of conciliation (which, if we can't find here in a placeless space, god help us):
>Jews are indigenous to Israel
That's a disingenuous and frankly ignorant argument.
Jews were never entirely vanished from the area, and historically were not treated very well as a remnant, but at the same time Biblical kingdoms and tribal claims are not a legitimate basis to dispossess or eject others when the political tides turn.
Gaza is denser than Hong Kong and is the world largest open-air prison.
I prefer "Electronic Intifada's" characterization of Gaza as a ghetto. It really says everything.
An end to the racist ethnostate
Just within the borders of Israel, but not its neighbors? Show me the non-"racist ethnostate" in the Middle East. None of them ought to be that way, but is it realistic to expect Israel to become an entirely open and free society while its openly antisemitic neighbors are going to continue to call for its destruction? I don't think integrating Palestinians as full citizens of Israel (something I'm ultimately in favor of if thats what Palestinians decide they want) is going to change the minds of people who are motivated by eschatological religious compulsions.
Also, attacking Australia as a proxy for attacking JiA personally seems below the belt.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:17 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
>Jews are indigenous to Israel
That's a disingenuous and frankly ignorant argument.
Jews were never entirely vanished from the area, and historically were not treated very well as a remnant, but at the same time Biblical kingdoms and tribal claims are not a legitimate basis to dispossess or eject others when the political tides turn.
Gaza is denser than Hong Kong and is the world largest open-air prison.
I prefer "Electronic Intifada's" characterization of Gaza as a ghetto. It really says everything.
An end to the racist ethnostate
Just within the borders of Israel, but not its neighbors? Show me the non-"racist ethnostate" in the Middle East. None of them ought to be that way, but is it realistic to expect Israel to become an entirely open and free society while its openly antisemitic neighbors are going to continue to call for its destruction? I don't think integrating Palestinians as full citizens of Israel (something I'm ultimately in favor of if thats what Palestinians decide they want) is going to change the minds of people who are motivated by eschatological religious compulsions.
Also, attacking Australia as a proxy for attacking JiA personally seems below the belt.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:17 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
I mentioned Australia because, as it says in my profile, this is where I live. Where I see the calls for genocide, the racist dogwhistles of politicians & media alike, the everyday discrimination in spaces public and private. The police brutality. The continuing illegitimacy of our colonist state & the violence it spawns. As much as I advocate for change elsewhere, decolonisation begins at home.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 9:27 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by AnhydrousLove at 9:27 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
Ah, gotcha. Sorry.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:29 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:29 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
@YousefMunayyer US @statedeptspox
QUESTION: Please. Today, the Israeli minister of defense, Lieberman, said – told The Jerusalem Post, an Israeli newspaper, that there are no civilians in Gaza. Do you have any comment on that?
MS NAUERT: I do not. I do not.
Department Press Briefing - April 10, 2018
posted by scalefree at 11:18 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
QUESTION: Please. Today, the Israeli minister of defense, Lieberman, said – told The Jerusalem Post, an Israeli newspaper, that there are no civilians in Gaza. Do you have any comment on that?
MS NAUERT: I do not. I do not.
Department Press Briefing - April 10, 2018
posted by scalefree at 11:18 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
Really?
I mean, that reckoning hasn't really come in all the other things that tax dollars have supported since the US got involved in foreign interventions and arms trafficking (that the political class calls 'military aid' sometimes)
The reckoning is about whether or not we as American taxpayers want to continue paying for Apartheid with our tax dollars. Right now, that’s not even allowed to be brought up for discussion in Congress.
But the more images we see of civilians demanding human rights and being gunned down in reply, the more times people point a finger and use the word “Apartheid”, the more the more possible it becomes to discuss defunding Apartheid.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:18 PM on April 11, 2018 [10 favorites]
I mean, that reckoning hasn't really come in all the other things that tax dollars have supported since the US got involved in foreign interventions and arms trafficking (that the political class calls 'military aid' sometimes)
The reckoning is about whether or not we as American taxpayers want to continue paying for Apartheid with our tax dollars. Right now, that’s not even allowed to be brought up for discussion in Congress.
But the more images we see of civilians demanding human rights and being gunned down in reply, the more times people point a finger and use the word “Apartheid”, the more the more possible it becomes to discuss defunding Apartheid.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:18 PM on April 11, 2018 [10 favorites]
Japan?
Japan is not "explicitly" an ethno-state. You can certainly argue about how it behaves, much like the USA or Australia or whatever, but there is nothing in their Constitution/laws/etc that makes it an explicit ethno-state. (And the argument was specifically about being explicit --- there are lots of _implicit_ ethnostate democracies in the world).
posted by thefoxgod at 1:52 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Japan is not "explicitly" an ethno-state. You can certainly argue about how it behaves, much like the USA or Australia or whatever, but there is nothing in their Constitution/laws/etc that makes it an explicit ethno-state. (And the argument was specifically about being explicit --- there are lots of _implicit_ ethnostate democracies in the world).
posted by thefoxgod at 1:52 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
What definition of "explicit ethno-state" are people using here? Because Israel has a large (about 20%) Arab minority, among other groups, whose rights are not in question. Yes, it's "the Jewish State", but its founders very clearly chose that term in preference to "State of the Jews". It's "the Jewish State", parallel to "the English State" or "the German State". Israel doesn't even have an official religion or impose a confessional requirement on its Head of State, unlike many Western democracies in good standing.
Incidentally, and only because people seem to be implicitly using the USA as a yardstick for egalitarianism, the United States incorporates a number of dependent nations that are explicit ethno-states, with their own criteria for membership and with distinct legal regimes. There are very good historical reasons for this, but it's weird that Americans, in particular, are so surprised that a nation might have an identity that goes beyond "these are the physical borders of our territory ".
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:04 PM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
Incidentally, and only because people seem to be implicitly using the USA as a yardstick for egalitarianism, the United States incorporates a number of dependent nations that are explicit ethno-states, with their own criteria for membership and with distinct legal regimes. There are very good historical reasons for this, but it's weird that Americans, in particular, are so surprised that a nation might have an identity that goes beyond "these are the physical borders of our territory ".
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:04 PM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
One criteria would be that my 2 year old daughter who was born in Philadelphia has a stronger legal claim to, say, Haifa than someone whose grandparents lived there.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:35 PM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:35 PM on April 11, 2018 [9 favorites]
Well, there is a difference between "German State" or whatever and "Jewish State". If I become a citizen of Germany, I am a German. Same with America, Japan, etc. But if I become an Israeli citizen (assuming such a thing was possible for me), I am an Israeli but I am not Jewish. I know Israel _does_ have many non-Jewish citizens, so describing itself as the "Jewish State" seems to create a at least rhetorical division between its citizens.
Of course, in practice there are many Americans/Germans/Japanese who don't consider immigrants "real" Americans/Germans/Japanese, so the difference may be more in principal than in practice.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:55 PM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
Of course, in practice there are many Americans/Germans/Japanese who don't consider immigrants "real" Americans/Germans/Japanese, so the difference may be more in principal than in practice.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:55 PM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
"the English State"
What's the "English state"? There hasn't been a government of England for 311 years (and part of the definition of a "state" involves a centralised government). The state whose jurisdiction encompasses England is definitely not "the English state", and English ancestry/nationality is not a necessary or sufficient condition for, say, recognising people as citizens of that state.
The UK is not a "$NATIONALITY/ETHNICITY-ish state" (and definitely not "the English state"), so I don't understand what you're after with this claim of "parallelism".
posted by busted_crayons at 5:26 PM on April 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
What's the "English state"? There hasn't been a government of England for 311 years (and part of the definition of a "state" involves a centralised government). The state whose jurisdiction encompasses England is definitely not "the English state", and English ancestry/nationality is not a necessary or sufficient condition for, say, recognising people as citizens of that state.
The UK is not a "$NATIONALITY/ETHNICITY-ish state" (and definitely not "the English state"), so I don't understand what you're after with this claim of "parallelism".
posted by busted_crayons at 5:26 PM on April 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
If I become a citizen of Germany, I am a German. Same with America, Japan, etc. But if I become an Israeli citizen (assuming such a thing was possible for me), I am an Israeli but I am not Jewish.
You wouldn't be Jewish, but you'd be a citizen of the Jewish State, just as you might be a citizen of (what are now) the Czech or Slovak Republics without being a Czech or a Slovak, or a citizen of Russia without being a Russian. In fact until quite recently – 1997 or maybe 2002 IIUC – the internal passports carried by citizens of Russia had a line for "nationality". For ethnic Russians that line said "Russian". For Tatars or Caucasians it said "Tatar" or "Caucasian". And for Jews, it said "Jew".
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:57 AM on April 12, 2018
You wouldn't be Jewish, but you'd be a citizen of the Jewish State, just as you might be a citizen of (what are now) the Czech or Slovak Republics without being a Czech or a Slovak, or a citizen of Russia without being a Russian. In fact until quite recently – 1997 or maybe 2002 IIUC – the internal passports carried by citizens of Russia had a line for "nationality". For ethnic Russians that line said "Russian". For Tatars or Caucasians it said "Tatar" or "Caucasian". And for Jews, it said "Jew".
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:57 AM on April 12, 2018
The US could stamp my 23andme genetic results on my passport and it wouldn’t make a lick of difference in where I can live and what my life outcomes are or my chances of being killed by air strikes, siege, or whatever. I think that’s kinda the point.
Lots of countries have ethnic minorities. Lots of those minorities are treated poorly, with abuses, war crimes, human rights violations etc. all those countries are doing bad things and should pay a price for doing that. Israel isn’t unique in that regard but what makes it unique is that it touts its liberal democracy (thus holding it to a higher standard) has unwavering patronage from the US, and currently administers the longest running occupation in the world. Also my daughter, who is adorbs, has a stronger claim to live in Haifa than someone who was born there.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:11 AM on April 12, 2018 [7 favorites]
Lots of countries have ethnic minorities. Lots of those minorities are treated poorly, with abuses, war crimes, human rights violations etc. all those countries are doing bad things and should pay a price for doing that. Israel isn’t unique in that regard but what makes it unique is that it touts its liberal democracy (thus holding it to a higher standard) has unwavering patronage from the US, and currently administers the longest running occupation in the world. Also my daughter, who is adorbs, has a stronger claim to live in Haifa than someone who was born there.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:11 AM on April 12, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's not the longest running occupation, just currently one of the most violent. Otherwise, I largely agree.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 5:48 AM on April 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by AnhydrousLove at 5:48 AM on April 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
Israel isn’t unique in that regard but what makes it unique is that it touts its liberal democracy (thus holding it to a higher standard) has unwavering patronage from the US, and currently administers the longest running occupation in the world.
... doesn't the US tout its liberal democracy? I lnow Australia does, and the EU., and a bumch of other nations and supranational bodies. None of your other arguments seem very good to me either, but let's say they were all true. It's as if you were saying "Canada is the biggest source of tar sands pollution, but it claims to respect the environment; we must all rally against Canada, which logs old-growth forests; our dedication to the environment will be measured by how committed we are to opposing Canada; criticisms of other states are mere distractions from the true example of environmental despoilation: Canada".
A lot of this is true. In a lot of ways Canada is pretty bad! But the reasons look cherry-picked to achieve an end, and even if they were all true it would be crazy to mount a bug-eyed focus on one state to the exclusion of every other. Also, in this analogy Canada just happens to be the national home of a historically oppressed group, so it's really easy and satisfying to get your hate on.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:05 AM on April 12, 2018
... doesn't the US tout its liberal democracy? I lnow Australia does, and the EU., and a bumch of other nations and supranational bodies. None of your other arguments seem very good to me either, but let's say they were all true. It's as if you were saying "Canada is the biggest source of tar sands pollution, but it claims to respect the environment; we must all rally against Canada, which logs old-growth forests; our dedication to the environment will be measured by how committed we are to opposing Canada; criticisms of other states are mere distractions from the true example of environmental despoilation: Canada".
A lot of this is true. In a lot of ways Canada is pretty bad! But the reasons look cherry-picked to achieve an end, and even if they were all true it would be crazy to mount a bug-eyed focus on one state to the exclusion of every other. Also, in this analogy Canada just happens to be the national home of a historically oppressed group, so it's really easy and satisfying to get your hate on.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:05 AM on April 12, 2018
... doesn't the US tout its liberal democracy?
...
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:35 AM on April 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
...
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:35 AM on April 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
Well, there is a difference between "German State" or whatever and "Jewish State".
If I become a citizen of Germany, I am a German. Same with America, Japan, etc. But if I become an Israeli citizen (assuming such a thing was possible for me), I am an Israeli but I am not Jewish.
An interesting comparison given that until relatively recently German citizenship (like a lot of European countries) was exclusively grounded in the doctrine of jus sanguinis (i.e. German descent). Germany in particular was strict enough about this, under law dating back to 1913, to create problems with dual citizenship within the EU until it reformed its laws in 1999/2000 to provide for territorial citizenship as an alternate basis and in some cases a mandatory election of a single citizenship upon reaching adulthood. But even after those reforms problems arise for dual citizens. At least, some dual citizens. From The Economist in 2013:
THE case of a woman from Hanau, in Hesse, shows why Kenan Kolat, leader of Germany’s Turks, calls the German citizenship law “absurdity cubed.” Born in Germany to Turkish parents, she was a dual citizen. According to the law, she had to relinquish one passport between her 18th and 23rd birthday. She chose to forgo the Turkish one. But the Turkish bureaucracy was slow, her birthday came—and her German citizenship went instead.
[Germany's] traditional approach goes back to a law passed before the first world war. Based on jus sanguinis (“right of blood”), it gave citizenship to anybody of German descent, but not to foreigners born in Germany, as countries such as America and France that practise jus soli (“right of soil”) do. Then, in 1999, a centre-left government added the two notions together. This would have let a woman born in Germany to Turkish parents be simultaneously German and Turkish. But that law coincided with a regional election in Hesse, where the centre-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU) seized on the issue ...took control of the upper house [and] blocked the new law...A compromise was reached in 2000. Children born in Germany to foreign parents after 1990 can get two passports but have to choose one citizenship before they are 23. [In 2013] the first cohort of such children, about 3,300, [reached] that age. From 2018 the number will reach 40,000 a year or more. There are about half a million such cases all told, more than two-thirds of them of Turkish descent.
Yet not all young dual citizens must choose. A child born to a German parent in America, say, retains both passports for life. So does a child born to a Greek or Spanish parent in Germany, because dual citizenship is allowed for members of the European Union and Switzerland. This seems unfair to the Turks...
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:39 AM on April 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
If I become a citizen of Germany, I am a German. Same with America, Japan, etc. But if I become an Israeli citizen (assuming such a thing was possible for me), I am an Israeli but I am not Jewish.
An interesting comparison given that until relatively recently German citizenship (like a lot of European countries) was exclusively grounded in the doctrine of jus sanguinis (i.e. German descent). Germany in particular was strict enough about this, under law dating back to 1913, to create problems with dual citizenship within the EU until it reformed its laws in 1999/2000 to provide for territorial citizenship as an alternate basis and in some cases a mandatory election of a single citizenship upon reaching adulthood. But even after those reforms problems arise for dual citizens. At least, some dual citizens. From The Economist in 2013:
[Germany's] traditional approach goes back to a law passed before the first world war. Based on jus sanguinis (“right of blood”), it gave citizenship to anybody of German descent, but not to foreigners born in Germany, as countries such as America and France that practise jus soli (“right of soil”) do. Then, in 1999, a centre-left government added the two notions together. This would have let a woman born in Germany to Turkish parents be simultaneously German and Turkish. But that law coincided with a regional election in Hesse, where the centre-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU) seized on the issue ...took control of the upper house [and] blocked the new law...A compromise was reached in 2000. Children born in Germany to foreign parents after 1990 can get two passports but have to choose one citizenship before they are 23. [In 2013] the first cohort of such children, about 3,300, [reached] that age. From 2018 the number will reach 40,000 a year or more. There are about half a million such cases all told, more than two-thirds of them of Turkish descent.
Yet not all young dual citizens must choose. A child born to a German parent in America, say, retains both passports for life. So does a child born to a Greek or Spanish parent in Germany, because dual citizenship is allowed for members of the European Union and Switzerland. This seems unfair to the Turks...
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:39 AM on April 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
Last year, the army instructed their spokesmen not to use the term “West Bank” deriding it as a “Palestinian construction” and instead to refer to the area as the occupied territories.
Occupation and international law: questions and answers
Occupation and international law: questions and answers
The main rules of the law applicable in case of occupation state that:posted by flabdablet at 9:24 AM on April 12, 2018 [10 favorites]
The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory.
Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period.
The occupying power must respect the laws in force in the occupied territory, unless they constitute a threat to its security or an obstacle to the application of the international law of occupation.
The occupying power must take measures to restore and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety.
To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation.
The population in occupied territory cannot be forced to enlist in the occupier's armed forces.
Collective or individual forcible transfers of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited.
Transfers of the civilian population of the occupying power into the occupied territory, regardless whether forcible or voluntary, are prohibited.
Collective punishment is prohibited.
The taking of hostages is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons or their property are prohibited.
The confiscation of private property by the occupant is prohibited.
The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities.
Cultural property must be respected.
People accused of criminal offences shall be provided with proceedings respecting internationally recognized judicial guarantees (for example, they must be informed of the reason for their arrest, charged with a specific offence and given a fair trial as quickly as possible).
Personnel of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent Movement must be allowed to carry out their humanitarian activities. The ICRC, in particular, must be given access to all protected persons, wherever they are, whether or not they are deprived of their liberty.
"Occupied Territories" is probably a better name than "West Bank", but they're both political terms, not geographic ones. Jordan promoted the term "West Bank" in an effort to legitimise its annexation of the area: the idea was that the Jordan River had two banks, and both of them belonged to their Hashemite conquerors.
I understand that the Israeli government actually uses the term "Judea and Samaria" to describe this area, but that's not quite right either: Judea and Samaria covered most of what is now Israel plus the West Bank/Occupied Territories; if you took them out Israel would be reduced to Galilee in the north, Idumea in the south, and maybe a bit of Phoenicea along the northern coast.
The changing names represent an interesting example of political cartography, though: look at this Google N-Gram plot of "West Bank" vs "Judea" and "Samaria" and you can see that "West Bank" only started to take off in the 60s, possibly after the Six Day War. You do need some term to describe the WB/OT, though, and I suppose one is as good as another.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:48 PM on April 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
I understand that the Israeli government actually uses the term "Judea and Samaria" to describe this area, but that's not quite right either: Judea and Samaria covered most of what is now Israel plus the West Bank/Occupied Territories; if you took them out Israel would be reduced to Galilee in the north, Idumea in the south, and maybe a bit of Phoenicea along the northern coast.
The changing names represent an interesting example of political cartography, though: look at this Google N-Gram plot of "West Bank" vs "Judea" and "Samaria" and you can see that "West Bank" only started to take off in the 60s, possibly after the Six Day War. You do need some term to describe the WB/OT, though, and I suppose one is as good as another.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:48 PM on April 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
Senior Israeli Officials declined on Thursday to offer any proof to substantiate their coordinated attack on the reputation of Yaser Murtaja, a Palestinian photojournalist who was shot and killed by an Israeli sniper last week while documenting protests in Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 5:30 PM on April 13, 2018
posted by adamvasco at 5:30 PM on April 13, 2018
300 Meters in Gaza:
Snipers, Burning Tires
and a Contested Fence
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:07 AM on April 14, 2018
Snipers, Burning Tires
and a Contested Fence
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:07 AM on April 14, 2018
Ha'aretz: Palestinians Report Four Killed by Israeli Army in Gaza Strip; IDF Denies Shooting
AP (via WaPo): Gaza flare-up driven by deep misery in strip, noting in conclusion:
The U.S. has also cut some $300 million in money for UNWRA, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees and their descendants. Over half of Gaza’s people rely on UNRWA for assistance. The agency is now scrambling to try to make up the funding gap, raising the danger of a new humanitarian crisis.
In other US & I/P news:
Times of Israel: Two Jewish [US] Congress members urge Israel not to demolish Palestinian villages -- In letter circulated to colleagues, Democrats Yarmuth and Schakowsky say demolitions would 'run counter to shared US and Israeli values'
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:40 AM on April 14, 2018
AP (via WaPo): Gaza flare-up driven by deep misery in strip, noting in conclusion:
The U.S. has also cut some $300 million in money for UNWRA, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees and their descendants. Over half of Gaza’s people rely on UNRWA for assistance. The agency is now scrambling to try to make up the funding gap, raising the danger of a new humanitarian crisis.
In other US & I/P news:
Times of Israel: Two Jewish [US] Congress members urge Israel not to demolish Palestinian villages -- In letter circulated to colleagues, Democrats Yarmuth and Schakowsky say demolitions would 'run counter to shared US and Israeli values'
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:40 AM on April 14, 2018
Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman has said Israel plans to demolish a large part of Susya, a small village near Hebron, because building there was unauthorized. The letter mentions plans to demolish “other similarly situated Palestinian communities in the West Bank.”Unauthorized by what authority?
If these principles of international law with respect to occupied territories apply,
* The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory.
* Collective or individual forcible transfers of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited.
* The confiscation of private property by the occupant is prohibited.
* The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities.
then I fail to understand why the proposed demolitions are being objected to on the rather wishy-washy grounds of "running counter to shared values" rather than for being blatantly illegal.
posted by flabdablet at 8:30 AM on April 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Unauthorized by what authority?
I presume "unauthorised by the body established by agreement between Israel and the PLO in 1996 and since fossilised in amber".
110 years ago the responsible body would have been the local representative of the Ottoman Empire. 80 years ago it would have been the local representative of the British Empire. 60 years ago it would have been Jordan. Now it's Israel.
Even if you don't think Israel or its predecessors'
rule is philosophically justifiable, somebody needs to say "no, you cannot just stick up buildings where you like". One of the reasons land law in the WB/OT is a mess is that it has effectively been governed by military law for over a century, so lawyers are still applying Ottoman land law as altered by British Orders in Council as altered by whatever the Jordanian equivalent is. But, without that threadbare justification, there would be no legitimate government there at all. It's certainly not clear to me that the PA could be an alternative.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:12 PM on April 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
I presume "unauthorised by the body established by agreement between Israel and the PLO in 1996 and since fossilised in amber".
110 years ago the responsible body would have been the local representative of the Ottoman Empire. 80 years ago it would have been the local representative of the British Empire. 60 years ago it would have been Jordan. Now it's Israel.
Even if you don't think Israel or its predecessors'
rule is philosophically justifiable, somebody needs to say "no, you cannot just stick up buildings where you like". One of the reasons land law in the WB/OT is a mess is that it has effectively been governed by military law for over a century, so lawyers are still applying Ottoman land law as altered by British Orders in Council as altered by whatever the Jordanian equivalent is. But, without that threadbare justification, there would be no legitimate government there at all. It's certainly not clear to me that the PA could be an alternative.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:12 PM on April 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
wishy-washy grounds of "running counter to shared values" rather than for being blatantly illegal
These are Jewish members of Congress, and they are speaking as much to American Jews (who may not agree that the West Bank is "occupied" for the purposes of international law) as to Israel.
"Running counter to shared values" is a mild but well understood way of saying "we, as Jews, should not be engaging in collective punishment or ghettoization of a religious/ethnic minority, and there is more to Jewish values than the defense of Israel."
That is, in some ways, a more powerful statement than a pro forma invocation of laws that no one involved is observing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on April 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
These are Jewish members of Congress, and they are speaking as much to American Jews (who may not agree that the West Bank is "occupied" for the purposes of international law) as to Israel.
"Running counter to shared values" is a mild but well understood way of saying "we, as Jews, should not be engaging in collective punishment or ghettoization of a religious/ethnic minority, and there is more to Jewish values than the defense of Israel."
That is, in some ways, a more powerful statement than a pro forma invocation of laws that no one involved is observing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on April 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Using religion as a club is dangerous, no matter which way it's aimed. It may coincide with your goals in this instance, but then how would you counter a latter-day Meir Kahane arguing that Jewish values demand a policy of ethnic exclusivity? You don't even need to reach for a hypothetical fascist: Hamas is one of the parties in the present conflict, and they frankly say that their religious values include killing Jews. The letter's authors talk about Israeli values, not Jewish values, and I think that's a much better and safer way to frame it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:54 PM on April 14, 2018
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:54 PM on April 14, 2018
I'm as much a Jew as anyone else and I'm entitled to my opinion. I don't give a shit what Meir Kahane has to say and plenty of settlers make precisely that claim. I say they're wrong.
Hamas is one of the parties in the present conflict, and they frankly say that their religious values include killing Jews.
I'm going to just pretend you didn't suggest my choices are shutting up or supporting Hamas in the murder of Jews.
The letter's authors talk about Israeli values, not Jewish values, and I think that's a much better and safer way to frame it.
The authors are American Jews, not Israelis, and talk about common values.
Jews shouldn't ghettoize Palestinians. Jews should find collective punishment distasteful. To say the least. If that's "unsafe" to say, so be it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:13 PM on April 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
Hamas is one of the parties in the present conflict, and they frankly say that their religious values include killing Jews.
I'm going to just pretend you didn't suggest my choices are shutting up or supporting Hamas in the murder of Jews.
The letter's authors talk about Israeli values, not Jewish values, and I think that's a much better and safer way to frame it.
The authors are American Jews, not Israelis, and talk about common values.
Jews shouldn't ghettoize Palestinians. Jews should find collective punishment distasteful. To say the least. If that's "unsafe" to say, so be it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:13 PM on April 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
If you prefer, call them cultural values. My view isn't rooted in faith or scripture but the diasporic experience that is meant to underlie Zionism.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:11 PM on April 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:11 PM on April 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ha'aretz: Palestinians Report Four Killed by Israeli Army in Gaza Strip; IDF Denies Shooting
Ha'aretz has updated the story at that URL above:
Four Islamic Jihad Militants Killed in Explosion in Gaza
Kudos to Ha'aretz for putting the correction into the original article instead of burying it somewhere else. I do wonder what sort of "training" these men were doing that resulted in an explosion powerful enough to kill four of them, and who initially claimed that it was the result of gunfire.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:44 PM on April 14, 2018
Ha'aretz has updated the story at that URL above:
Four Islamic Jihad Militants Killed in Explosion in Gaza
The military wing of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad organization Al-Quds Brigades said on Saturday that four of its fighters were killed in an explosion during training near Rafah in the Gaza Strip. According to initial reports, the four were said to be killed by Israeli army fire; the Palestinian Health Ministry reported that the bodies were taken to a hospital in the city.
Kudos to Ha'aretz for putting the correction into the original article instead of burying it somewhere else. I do wonder what sort of "training" these men were doing that resulted in an explosion powerful enough to kill four of them, and who initially claimed that it was the result of gunfire.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:44 PM on April 14, 2018
Gaza's humanitarian crisis began long before Hamas: The deliberate suffocation of Gaza began in the 90s, when the first restrictions on the movement of Palestinians were introduced.
Hamas took over Gaza in 2007.
Israel is an Apartheid nation. Whatever else it may or may not be, it is absolutely that. And the American taxpayer foots the bill.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:57 AM on April 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Hamas took over Gaza in 2007.
Israel is an Apartheid nation. Whatever else it may or may not be, it is absolutely that. And the American taxpayer foots the bill.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:57 AM on April 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Israel is an Apartheid nation. Whatever else it may or may not be, it is absolutely that.
No, Israel has a large and thriving Arab minority, as well as many smaller minority groups. They're doctors, lawyers, broadcasters, politicians, and judges, and can engage fully in national life. In contrast, none of Israel's neighbours allow Jews to participate in national life. Most of them don't have any Jews, even the ones that once had huge Jewish populations. I mentioned above that Palestinian Jews were expelled from Arab controlled areas in 1948; they still haven't been able to return to the ones under PA control. In fact, Palestinian law actually imposes the death penalty on people who sell land to Jews. That's Apartheid.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:11 AM on April 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
No, Israel has a large and thriving Arab minority, as well as many smaller minority groups. They're doctors, lawyers, broadcasters, politicians, and judges, and can engage fully in national life. In contrast, none of Israel's neighbours allow Jews to participate in national life. Most of them don't have any Jews, even the ones that once had huge Jewish populations. I mentioned above that Palestinian Jews were expelled from Arab controlled areas in 1948; they still haven't been able to return to the ones under PA control. In fact, Palestinian law actually imposes the death penalty on people who sell land to Jews. That's Apartheid.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:11 AM on April 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
No, Israel has a large and thriving Arab minority, as well as many smaller minority groups.
that's true only if you don't count the occupied west bank and gaza strip - you keep brushing the people there away as if they don't count - as long as the occupation continues, they do count, and israel is practicing apartheid
(by the way, it's my understanding that many israeli arabs aren't real happy with their place in their country - you're not trying to speak for them, are you?)
tl;dr - the oppressed get to define their oppression, the oppressors and their apologists don't
posted by pyramid termite at 4:35 AM on April 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
that's true only if you don't count the occupied west bank and gaza strip - you keep brushing the people there away as if they don't count - as long as the occupation continues, they do count, and israel is practicing apartheid
(by the way, it's my understanding that many israeli arabs aren't real happy with their place in their country - you're not trying to speak for them, are you?)
tl;dr - the oppressed get to define their oppression, the oppressors and their apologists don't
posted by pyramid termite at 4:35 AM on April 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
the oppressed get to define their oppression, the oppressors and their apologists don't
Do South Africans who lived under Apartheid get a say on the appropriation of their history? Apartheid was as much an era as a system; and normalized, explicitly racist/white supremacist segregation coming out of European colonialism is different than....whatever this is. Although there are correspondences that are powerful to talk about when it comes to how Palestinians are treated under Israeli law, they really have a different context and history.
I understand that I'm meant to be dismayed by the comparison, and I accept it as a way of raising questions. But not of answering them.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:19 AM on April 15, 2018
Do South Africans who lived under Apartheid get a say on the appropriation of their history? Apartheid was as much an era as a system; and normalized, explicitly racist/white supremacist segregation coming out of European colonialism is different than....whatever this is. Although there are correspondences that are powerful to talk about when it comes to how Palestinians are treated under Israeli law, they really have a different context and history.
I understand that I'm meant to be dismayed by the comparison, and I accept it as a way of raising questions. But not of answering them.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:19 AM on April 15, 2018
Of course Israel is profoundly racist. Is it more racist than most other countries? I don't believe so. Is Israeli racism so profound or unusual that it deserves its own name? Certainly not.
Apartheid was a South African way to deflect accusations of discrimination, just like the USA's justification of segregated schools as being "separate but equal". Stripping citizenship from South African Blacks and forcing them into their own "homelands" was another step along the same path. Israel isn't trying to do anything like that with its own minority populations; and neither Israel nor the Palestinians want Israel to annex the West Bank and Gaza. So what insight does the Apartheid analogy give? None that I can see. If anything it obscures the nature of Israeli racism and the boring, everyday countermeasures that will help reduce it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:56 AM on April 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Apartheid was a South African way to deflect accusations of discrimination, just like the USA's justification of segregated schools as being "separate but equal". Stripping citizenship from South African Blacks and forcing them into their own "homelands" was another step along the same path. Israel isn't trying to do anything like that with its own minority populations; and neither Israel nor the Palestinians want Israel to annex the West Bank and Gaza. So what insight does the Apartheid analogy give? None that I can see. If anything it obscures the nature of Israeli racism and the boring, everyday countermeasures that will help reduce it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:56 AM on April 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One of the way threads on these topics end up going badly is they ossify into slow-burn headbutting between a handful of people, at which point it should have just been a private email conversation or something to begin with. I feel like that's where we've gotten at this point, and I'm gonna ask y'all if you've been commenting a bunch in the tail end of the thread compared to everyone else to give the thread a pass at this point and allow either other folks talk or the thread to just rest.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:43 AM on April 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:43 AM on April 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Recently, I saw the film The Attack (2013). It's a complex and nuanced film about an Israeli Arab doctor for whom the conflict becomes intensely personal. I would really recommend it.
I've also been recommending Laila's Birthday as another nuanced (and much less harrowing) film.
----------
I am involved in Israel-Palestine issues constantly, because I am involved in a disaspora Jewish community. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't avoid it. But I'm neither Israeli nor Palestinian and have never lived there - and I'm very aware that the experience of my Jewish friends in Israel is very different from that of non-Jewish Israelis, just as my personal experience of race in Canada is different from that of a racialized person.
So I look to balance the stories I hear through first person accounts from both Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis, including through film, memoirs and other art. Sayed Kashua has a funny - but also very revealing - story of what it's like to be an Arab Israeli trying to buy an expensive bed from a nice shop in Israel. It certainly complicates the whole "equal rights" story. Just as in many countries, equal rights on paper is far from equal rights in reality.
posted by jb at 9:22 AM on April 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
I've also been recommending Laila's Birthday as another nuanced (and much less harrowing) film.
----------
I am involved in Israel-Palestine issues constantly, because I am involved in a disaspora Jewish community. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't avoid it. But I'm neither Israeli nor Palestinian and have never lived there - and I'm very aware that the experience of my Jewish friends in Israel is very different from that of non-Jewish Israelis, just as my personal experience of race in Canada is different from that of a racialized person.
So I look to balance the stories I hear through first person accounts from both Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis, including through film, memoirs and other art. Sayed Kashua has a funny - but also very revealing - story of what it's like to be an Arab Israeli trying to buy an expensive bed from a nice shop in Israel. It certainly complicates the whole "equal rights" story. Just as in many countries, equal rights on paper is far from equal rights in reality.
posted by jb at 9:22 AM on April 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
Translated Transcript of an interview with Brigadier General (Res.) Zvika Fogel. Interviewed on
the Yoman Hashevua program of Israel’s Kan radio, 21 April 2018. (scroll down) justifying killing unarmed civilians and children
Ron Nesiel: Greetings Brigadier General (Res.) Zvika Fogel. Should the IDF [Israeli army] rethink its use of snipers? There’s the impression that maybe someone lowered the bar for using live fire, and this may be the result?
Zvika Fogel: Ron, let’s maybe look at this matter on three levels. At the tactical level that we all love dealing with, the local one, also at the level of values, and with your permission, we will also rise up to the strategic level. At the tactical level, any person who gets close to the fence, anyone who could be a future threat to the border of the State of Israel and its residents, should bear a price for that violation. If this child or anyone else gets close to the fence in order to hide an explosive device or check if there are any dead zones there or to cut the fence so someone could infiltrate the territory of the State of Israel to kill us …
Nesiel: Then, then his punishment is death?
Fogel: His punishment is death. As far as I’m concerned then yes, if you can only shoot him to stop him, in the leg or arm – great. But if it’s more than that then, yes, you want to check with me whose blood is thicker, ours or theirs. It is clear to you that if one such person will manage to cross the fence or hide an explosive device there …
Nesiel: But we were taught that live fire is only used when the soldiers face immediate danger.
Fogel: Come, let’s move over to the level of values. Assuming that we understood the tactical level, as we cannot tolerate a crossing of our border or a violation of our border, let’s proceed to the level of values. I am not Ahmad Tibi, I am Zvika Fogel. I know how these orders are given. I know how a sniper does the shooting. I know how many authorizations he needs before he receives an authorization to open fire. It is not the whim of one or the other sniper who identifies the small body of a child now and decides he’ll shoot. Someone marks the target for him very well and tells him exactly why one has to shoot and what the threat is from that individual. And to my great sorrow, sometimes when you shoot at a small body and you intended to hit his arm or shoulder it goes even higher. The picture is not a pretty picture. But if that’s the price that we have to pay to preserve the safety and quality of life of the residents of the State of Israel, then that’s the price. But now, with your permission, let us go up one level and look at the overview. It is clear to you that Hamas is fighting for consciousness at the moment. It is clear to you and to me …
posted by adamvasco at 2:40 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
the Yoman Hashevua program of Israel’s Kan radio, 21 April 2018. (scroll down) justifying killing unarmed civilians and children
Ron Nesiel: Greetings Brigadier General (Res.) Zvika Fogel. Should the IDF [Israeli army] rethink its use of snipers? There’s the impression that maybe someone lowered the bar for using live fire, and this may be the result?
Zvika Fogel: Ron, let’s maybe look at this matter on three levels. At the tactical level that we all love dealing with, the local one, also at the level of values, and with your permission, we will also rise up to the strategic level. At the tactical level, any person who gets close to the fence, anyone who could be a future threat to the border of the State of Israel and its residents, should bear a price for that violation. If this child or anyone else gets close to the fence in order to hide an explosive device or check if there are any dead zones there or to cut the fence so someone could infiltrate the territory of the State of Israel to kill us …
Nesiel: Then, then his punishment is death?
Fogel: His punishment is death. As far as I’m concerned then yes, if you can only shoot him to stop him, in the leg or arm – great. But if it’s more than that then, yes, you want to check with me whose blood is thicker, ours or theirs. It is clear to you that if one such person will manage to cross the fence or hide an explosive device there …
Nesiel: But we were taught that live fire is only used when the soldiers face immediate danger.
Fogel: Come, let’s move over to the level of values. Assuming that we understood the tactical level, as we cannot tolerate a crossing of our border or a violation of our border, let’s proceed to the level of values. I am not Ahmad Tibi, I am Zvika Fogel. I know how these orders are given. I know how a sniper does the shooting. I know how many authorizations he needs before he receives an authorization to open fire. It is not the whim of one or the other sniper who identifies the small body of a child now and decides he’ll shoot. Someone marks the target for him very well and tells him exactly why one has to shoot and what the threat is from that individual. And to my great sorrow, sometimes when you shoot at a small body and you intended to hit his arm or shoulder it goes even higher. The picture is not a pretty picture. But if that’s the price that we have to pay to preserve the safety and quality of life of the residents of the State of Israel, then that’s the price. But now, with your permission, let us go up one level and look at the overview. It is clear to you that Hamas is fighting for consciousness at the moment. It is clear to you and to me …
posted by adamvasco at 2:40 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
"24 Palestinians have had their limbs amputated since the March of Great Return mass protests started in March.
Medics on the ground say Israeli forces are shooting at demonstrators with a new type of round - never seen before - known as the "butterfly bullet", which explodes upon impact, pulverizing tissue, arteries and bone, while causing severe internal injuries
posted by adamvasco at 6:25 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Medics on the ground say Israeli forces are shooting at demonstrators with a new type of round - never seen before - known as the "butterfly bullet", which explodes upon impact, pulverizing tissue, arteries and bone, while causing severe internal injuries
posted by adamvasco at 6:25 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
The butterfly bullet, however, isn't the only new weapon featured prominently in the protests in Gaza.
Palestinians have also noted an unknown toxic gas launched at demonstrators, which provokes severe convulsions.
posted by adamvasco at 6:30 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Palestinians have also noted an unknown toxic gas launched at demonstrators, which provokes severe convulsions.
posted by adamvasco at 6:30 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'll just go ahead and call BS on those two allegations. The photo is of a hollow point bullet, apparently taken from the Clark Armory website. That's a subsonic .458 calibre round sold for hunters. It's not a sniper round, and from my limited knowledge of such things it (a) wouldn't fit IDF rifles and (b) wouldn't be accurate over those distances. According to one manufacturer it "was intended for short range work, either in dense brush or otherwise in urban theaters" and "after 125-150 yards, the bullets tend to drop off VERY rapidly".
The primary source for the allegations is Al Jazeera; more mainstream sources haven't repeated it. This is the sort of thing that would be easy to prove with just a photo of the actual cartridges, or perhaps the rifles, or just some soldier saying "look what they had us use". The same goes for the alleged gas. Al Jazeera isn't what it was; it wouldn't be the first time they sacrificed journalistic standards for political gain.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:26 PM on May 3, 2018
The primary source for the allegations is Al Jazeera; more mainstream sources haven't repeated it. This is the sort of thing that would be easy to prove with just a photo of the actual cartridges, or perhaps the rifles, or just some soldier saying "look what they had us use". The same goes for the alleged gas. Al Jazeera isn't what it was; it wouldn't be the first time they sacrificed journalistic standards for political gain.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:26 PM on May 3, 2018
Well I guess as long as they're using old bullets and gas to maim and kill kids/protestors who go too close to their arbitrary line on someone else's soil it's all good.
Then again, I heard there are no civilians in Gaza so I guess we should be applauding the IDF for not currently just shelling and bombing the entire place to the ground a la Dresden. Great work, much restraint, have we considered giving Netanyahu and Lieberman a joint peace prize yet?. /s
posted by AnhydrousLove at 10:36 PM on May 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
Then again, I heard there are no civilians in Gaza so I guess we should be applauding the IDF for not currently just shelling and bombing the entire place to the ground a la Dresden. Great work, much restraint, have we considered giving Netanyahu and Lieberman a joint peace prize yet?. /s
posted by AnhydrousLove at 10:36 PM on May 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
The primary source for the allegations is Al Jazeera; more mainstream sources haven't repeated it.
Washington Post: Blasted Limbs, Broken Dreams (emphasis mine)
Washington Post: Blasted Limbs, Broken Dreams (emphasis mine)
The United Nations, however, says Israel is engaged in an “excessive use of force,” and human rights groups point to cases where soldiers have fired at unarmed protesters or at those who didn’t pose an immediate threat.posted by zombieflanders at 4:48 AM on May 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
“The deployment of snipers, careful planning and significant number of injuries to the lower limbs does reflect an apparent policy to target [those] limbs,” said Omar Shakir, Israel-Palestine director at Human Rights Watch in New York. But targeting protesters’ legs “does not make the policy any less illegal,” he said. “The use of live ammunition to any part of the body invariably causes serious injury and even death.”
[...]
According to rights groups and health experts, the damage to protesters’ limbs has been unusually severe. Doctors Without Borders, based in Paris, has recorded “an extreme level of destruction to bones and soft tissue, and large exit wounds that can be the size of a fist.”
Human Rights Watch says it is reviewing evidence that bullets fired by Israeli forces have caused “significant bodily injury,” including “the shattering of bones. . . and severing of veins and arteries.”
I'm late to the party, but if the Government of Israel isn't "One Nation, with Liberty and Justice FOR ALL", they're doing it wrong.
Which is never going to happen, because the current Israeli Government cannot obtain the consent of the governed where everyone gets a vote.
I would call it a "Failed Democracy" until the State of Israel claims all of Greater Israel and everyone from the River to the Sea gets a vote in free and fair elections.
The problem with a government that can't get consent of the governed is THE GOVERNMENT, not the voters.
posted by mikelieman at 5:13 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Which is never going to happen, because the current Israeli Government cannot obtain the consent of the governed where everyone gets a vote.
I would call it a "Failed Democracy" until the State of Israel claims all of Greater Israel and everyone from the River to the Sea gets a vote in free and fair elections.
The problem with a government that can't get consent of the governed is THE GOVERNMENT, not the voters.
posted by mikelieman at 5:13 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Washington Post: Blasted Limbs, Broken Dreams (emphasis mine)
That article tends to refute the claim made by Al Jazeera:
Hamas is dedicated to the elimination of Israel and the murder or subjugation of its Jewish population. At the end of the day Israel needs to defend its border with Gaza. A fence didn't work; two fences didn't work; tear gas and rubber bullets didn't work. Israel only has two alternatives: allow free entry to Hamas' cadres, or escalate to things that are more lethal and less selective. Either way, vastly more people would be killed.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:55 PM on May 5, 2018
That article tends to refute the claim made by Al Jazeera:
“The deployment of snipers, careful planning and significant number of injuries to the lower limbs does reflect an apparent policy to target [those] limbs,” said Omar Shakir, Israel-Palestine director at Human Rights Watch in New York. But targeting protesters’ legs “does not make the policy any less illegal,” he said. “The use of live ammunition to any part of the body invariably causes serious injury and even death.”For once I have no disagreement with HRW: these injuries are the inevitable consequence of the IDF policy to use snipers. If Israel was using illegal ammunition I'm pretty sure HRW would say so, but that quote doesn't even come out and say that using snipers is illegal.
Hamas is dedicated to the elimination of Israel and the murder or subjugation of its Jewish population. At the end of the day Israel needs to defend its border with Gaza. A fence didn't work; two fences didn't work; tear gas and rubber bullets didn't work. Israel only has two alternatives: allow free entry to Hamas' cadres, or escalate to things that are more lethal and less selective. Either way, vastly more people would be killed.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:55 PM on May 5, 2018
Hamas is dedicated to the elimination of Israel and the murder or subjugation of its Jewish population.
And it would seem, based on the last 20 years or so, that the Israeli government is dedicated to the elimination of Palestine and the murder or subjugation of its Muslim population. So it is good to see one side trying non-violence for a change because the killing sucks.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:03 PM on May 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
And it would seem, based on the last 20 years or so, that the Israeli government is dedicated to the elimination of Palestine and the murder or subjugation of its Muslim population. So it is good to see one side trying non-violence for a change because the killing sucks.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:03 PM on May 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
At the end of the day Israel needs to defend its border with Gaza.
Occupy Gaza. Impose the Rule of Law. Prosecute terrorist criminals like any other criminal.
Don't legitimize Hamas by considering them anything BUT criminals.
posted by mikelieman at 7:30 PM on May 5, 2018
Occupy Gaza. Impose the Rule of Law. Prosecute terrorist criminals like any other criminal.
Don't legitimize Hamas by considering them anything BUT criminals.
posted by mikelieman at 7:30 PM on May 5, 2018
Oh, and if the point was not obvious, only one of the two sides is effectively implementing that policy.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:46 PM on May 5, 2018
posted by Meatbomb at 7:46 PM on May 5, 2018
"Tu quoque" isn't much of a response, particularly when we're talking about a body which says that the whole of pre-Mandate Palestine must be be Islamic; that no negotiations can be entered into; and which quotes an Islamist text saying that Muslims are to seek out and kill all Jews. They're not "trying non-violence for a change"; they're attacking Israel's borders with the declared, albeit insane, goal of driving out or killing all the Jews.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:38 PM on May 5, 2018
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:38 PM on May 5, 2018
A fence didn't work; two fences didn't work; tear gas and rubber bullets didn't work.
It's almost as if there were no military solution to this political problem.
posted by flabdablet at 10:36 PM on May 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's almost as if there were no military solution to this political problem.
posted by flabdablet at 10:36 PM on May 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yes, or at least no military solution Israel is willing to take. But if Hamas were willing to negotiate it would still be part of the Palestine Authority. There have been many attempts to get them back together, the latest earlier this year IIRC, but they've always foundered on Hamas' irredentism. Its entire raison d'être is stymying a peace deal.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:49 PM on May 5, 2018
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:49 PM on May 5, 2018
Unlike Likud, who are so eager for a just peace, Joe? We both have our biases but this is ridiculous. And as we are back to the dynamic that cortex specifically asked us to avoid, I will bow out now.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:08 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 11:08 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Here's a video posted by Al Jazeera a few days ago, apparently showing a bunch of young men crossing through the Gaza fence. When they get through they do a lot of stupid macho stuff with knives and improvised weapons, and they start filing off towards an Israeli farm (?) until they see an Israeli patrol vehicle (?) and run back. I presume the "tok-tok" sounds at the end are gunfire, but nobody seems to get hit.
My takeaways from it are: the border fence is actually mostly unguarded and this probably was not a carefully planned incursion. You can see the people crossing the border are not properly equipped or trained; they're acting with the stupid bravado typical of teens and basically showing off. I don't know if the incursion would have gone further if the vehicle hadn't come along, I especially don't know if they were planning a repeat of, e.g., the Itamar massacre, but that's what they seemed to be acting out.
These guys do not seem brilliant, but that doesn't mean they're not a threat. I wouldn't be surprised if most politically motivated knife attacks were actually committed by idiots like Mr Anonymous with his great big cleaver, mugging for the camera. The border fence isn't there as a matter of principle or even to prevent unauthorised migration: it's there because too many people were killed by murderers directed or encouraged by Hamas and other terrorist groups. In that context breaking through or tearing down the border fence is an inherently threatening act, even if the people doing it don't cross through themselves.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:03 PM on May 6, 2018
My takeaways from it are: the border fence is actually mostly unguarded and this probably was not a carefully planned incursion. You can see the people crossing the border are not properly equipped or trained; they're acting with the stupid bravado typical of teens and basically showing off. I don't know if the incursion would have gone further if the vehicle hadn't come along, I especially don't know if they were planning a repeat of, e.g., the Itamar massacre, but that's what they seemed to be acting out.
These guys do not seem brilliant, but that doesn't mean they're not a threat. I wouldn't be surprised if most politically motivated knife attacks were actually committed by idiots like Mr Anonymous with his great big cleaver, mugging for the camera. The border fence isn't there as a matter of principle or even to prevent unauthorised migration: it's there because too many people were killed by murderers directed or encouraged by Hamas and other terrorist groups. In that context breaking through or tearing down the border fence is an inherently threatening act, even if the people doing it don't cross through themselves.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:03 PM on May 6, 2018
Mod note: Hey, this thread will not hold up as a general Israel article roundup. New threads are a possibility, but they need to be specifically constructed.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:52 PM on May 9, 2018
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:52 PM on May 9, 2018
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posted by corb at 5:45 PM on April 10, 2018 [2 favorites]