“[Nostalgia trip] too often and the returns diminish rapidly.”
April 10, 2018 10:27 PM Subscribe
“You may be asking yourself: What kind of sociopath complains about ice cream sundaes? I am wondering about this, too. I just know that when I see one, I am almost never as excited as the servers seem to think I ought to be… But enough about the barren, echoing tundra that passes for my soul. Let’s talk about the future of New York restaurants.”
Pete Wells writes in The New York Times about how “The Ice Cream Sundae Must Be Stopped[!]”
Pete Wells writes in The New York Times about how “The Ice Cream Sundae Must Be Stopped[!]”
The article points out the real problem being covered up by a pithy click-bait title. By only having a sundae of some kind on the dessert menu- you don't need a real pastry chef and whatever pastry sou-chef you hire you can pay 30k less a year. It takes like zero skill to assemble a sundae- this is a way to save money on the behalf of the restaurant. Also in the article he talks about how many types of restaurants are doing this- not just "the kind of places" you might think.
Also quite frankly, quite a lot of us are lactose or otherwise dairy intolerant, not much on a dessert menu I can eat anyways, but a good cake or galette or even pie, at least I'll take my three lactase pills for, maybe I'll get a little sick, but if the dessert is good enough, and I take my pills it won't be too bad- but I wont even bother with ice cream. No lactase pill in the world can stop me from getting really really really sick from that. It sucks, but it's one more thing in a restaurant I just can't have.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 11:18 PM on April 10, 2018 [23 favorites]
Also quite frankly, quite a lot of us are lactose or otherwise dairy intolerant, not much on a dessert menu I can eat anyways, but a good cake or galette or even pie, at least I'll take my three lactase pills for, maybe I'll get a little sick, but if the dessert is good enough, and I take my pills it won't be too bad- but I wont even bother with ice cream. No lactase pill in the world can stop me from getting really really really sick from that. It sucks, but it's one more thing in a restaurant I just can't have.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 11:18 PM on April 10, 2018 [23 favorites]
Not sure why the solution to the problem of not having acceptable (what ever that means) dessert choices is to stop serving sundaes tho. No need to throw a perfectly fine dessert under the bus just 'cause it's "lazy", as if it's the patron's fault for liking what they like.
posted by Aleyn at 11:27 PM on April 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 11:27 PM on April 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
metafilter: No need to throw a perfectly fine dessert under the bus
posted by lalochezia at 12:11 AM on April 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 12:11 AM on April 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
I thought I was going to get all fighty about this. But Pete is talking about high-end fancy places that used to have pastry chefs. Yeah if I'm going to drop 100$ for dinner (which maybe I'll do once or twice a year) I wouldn't be impressed if my super-fancy birthday/anniversary eatery had ice cream instead of a decent pastry.
But, I sure as heck want a simple sundae with a cherry on top when I go to a diner, or at least I want the option of it.
posted by el io at 1:12 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
But, I sure as heck want a simple sundae with a cherry on top when I go to a diner, or at least I want the option of it.
posted by el io at 1:12 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
Everything about sundaes is terrible, from the idiotic name, through the absence of any taste but syrupy sweetness, to the childish faith that making a big heap of something has got to make it great.
posted by Segundus at 1:55 AM on April 11, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 1:55 AM on April 11, 2018 [17 favorites]
Jay Rayner has a similar complaint about the decline of desserts in restaurants:
posted by cyanistes at 2:12 AM on April 11, 2018 [16 favorites]
British restaurant desserts are in a death spiral right now due to a collapse in skill and chefs’ appetites. Oh sure, restaurants appear to offer desserts. But where once it would have been a list of tarts and mille-feuille, of savarins and delices, of things requiring proper pastry work, now there are just unstable creamy things on a plate. It’s an endless parade of panna cottas and half-arsed mousses. The kitchen will throw on a bit of granola or a fragment of meringue to make it look like a dessert, but that doesn’t alter the fact. It’s not. It’s a squirt from an udder, set to a wobble courtesy of a boiled down cow’s foot. It’s a failure of ambition.Rayner has a different story about why this is happening:
Until relatively recently young talented cooks were required to serve lengthy apprenticeships before being allowed to open their own places. Now, courtesy of pop-ups, pub residences and the like, ever younger cooks are getting to do so. Hurrah! That’s a good thing. The problem is they haven’t worked the pastry section. All they have is a half-remembered panna cotta recipe and the instructions for the ice-cream machine.But this is compatible with Wells' theory—Rayner giving the supply side of the account (skilled chefs have more opportunities so they are more expensive) and Wells the demand side (skilled chefs are more expensive so restaurants can afford fewer).
posted by cyanistes at 2:12 AM on April 11, 2018 [16 favorites]
To be honest, I rarely eat dessert in the restaurant where I eat dinner.
If I'm going to eat a dessert, I'd much rather take a stroll to somewhere that specializes in desserts.
We have several bakeries/coffee-shops that are within walking distance of a good restaurant, so you get some air and an overall better experience.
posted by madajb at 2:28 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
If I'm going to eat a dessert, I'd much rather take a stroll to somewhere that specializes in desserts.
We have several bakeries/coffee-shops that are within walking distance of a good restaurant, so you get some air and an overall better experience.
posted by madajb at 2:28 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
Sorry, I'm probably about to ruin the restaurant sundae, but it's not my fault. It's usually ruined before you even order it.
I don't hate the sundae, but the behind the scenes truth is that almost all sit down restaurants don't sell enough of them to turn over enough ice cream for it to stay fresh in the freezer, and what ice cream they do buy is likely going to be something institutional but passable at best.
What you'll usually find in the walk in freezer of a restaurant is a five gallon cardboard bucket of ice cream that lost it's lid months ago and is loosely covered by a sheet of plastic wrap. Chances are also pretty good that a number of employees have been randomly digging at it with a spoon for a quick, cold snack. Especially if they've used the freezer recently for screaming and/or crying, which is probably the real reason walk in freezers were invented for the restaurant industry.
So you order a sundae in a every day or even fancier place that doesn't have either a pastry chef, a focus on ice cream or make their own ice cream - or otherwise doesn't sell a lot of ice cream. Here's how it's probably going to go down.
Your server will first utter something like "Oh, fucking hell, now everyone is going to want one" because that's what will likely happen to them as soon as they bring out any kind of ice cream dish - everyone wants one. This happens with shakes, smoothies and basically every other sweet, cold pain in the ass to make dessert/bev kind of thing.
In fact, the best way to sell a bunch of ice cream is give the first one away for free. I've seen restaurant owners do this intentionally by comping a guest a small scoop or sundae, either "just because" or to correct a mistake. Bam - instant ice cream sales.
Next they'll spend a good minute or two if not a lot longer trying to find an ice cream scoop that A) exists and B) isn't broken and C) isn't in the dishpit covered in mashed potatoes. They will probably give up and end up using a big serving spoon. They may even have to use (hopefully gloved) hands to form the icecream into balls that look more like scoops. If you're lucky, they'll even scrape off or dig around the freezer burn.
Next they'll run around trying to find the toppings, which may or may not have been ordered any time recently. One or more listed ingredients may be missing. They may even have to improvise by crushing up whole peanuts, or whipping up some chocolate syrup from plain unsweetened cocoa powder. They may have to go to the bar for maraschino cherries, if they have them at all. Syrups, if any, may be quite dated.
Now the server has to make the damn thing, and hopefully the menu doesn't have pictures because it's not going to look like it.
In the end your chances are pretty good that you'll get something that's made from, at best, a major local creamery stored too long in the deep freeze and is made out of the same stuff you could have made it out of at home from the grocery store for a fraction of the price.
So, yeah, unless the restaurant makes it's own ice cream, save sundaes for an ice cream parlor.
But in most restaurants you're rolling the kitchen dice hard, and it often causes chaos behind the scenes.
posted by loquacious at 2:33 AM on April 11, 2018 [64 favorites]
I don't hate the sundae, but the behind the scenes truth is that almost all sit down restaurants don't sell enough of them to turn over enough ice cream for it to stay fresh in the freezer, and what ice cream they do buy is likely going to be something institutional but passable at best.
What you'll usually find in the walk in freezer of a restaurant is a five gallon cardboard bucket of ice cream that lost it's lid months ago and is loosely covered by a sheet of plastic wrap. Chances are also pretty good that a number of employees have been randomly digging at it with a spoon for a quick, cold snack. Especially if they've used the freezer recently for screaming and/or crying, which is probably the real reason walk in freezers were invented for the restaurant industry.
So you order a sundae in a every day or even fancier place that doesn't have either a pastry chef, a focus on ice cream or make their own ice cream - or otherwise doesn't sell a lot of ice cream. Here's how it's probably going to go down.
Your server will first utter something like "Oh, fucking hell, now everyone is going to want one" because that's what will likely happen to them as soon as they bring out any kind of ice cream dish - everyone wants one. This happens with shakes, smoothies and basically every other sweet, cold pain in the ass to make dessert/bev kind of thing.
In fact, the best way to sell a bunch of ice cream is give the first one away for free. I've seen restaurant owners do this intentionally by comping a guest a small scoop or sundae, either "just because" or to correct a mistake. Bam - instant ice cream sales.
Next they'll spend a good minute or two if not a lot longer trying to find an ice cream scoop that A) exists and B) isn't broken and C) isn't in the dishpit covered in mashed potatoes. They will probably give up and end up using a big serving spoon. They may even have to use (hopefully gloved) hands to form the icecream into balls that look more like scoops. If you're lucky, they'll even scrape off or dig around the freezer burn.
Next they'll run around trying to find the toppings, which may or may not have been ordered any time recently. One or more listed ingredients may be missing. They may even have to improvise by crushing up whole peanuts, or whipping up some chocolate syrup from plain unsweetened cocoa powder. They may have to go to the bar for maraschino cherries, if they have them at all. Syrups, if any, may be quite dated.
Now the server has to make the damn thing, and hopefully the menu doesn't have pictures because it's not going to look like it.
In the end your chances are pretty good that you'll get something that's made from, at best, a major local creamery stored too long in the deep freeze and is made out of the same stuff you could have made it out of at home from the grocery store for a fraction of the price.
So, yeah, unless the restaurant makes it's own ice cream, save sundaes for an ice cream parlor.
But in most restaurants you're rolling the kitchen dice hard, and it often causes chaos behind the scenes.
posted by loquacious at 2:33 AM on April 11, 2018 [64 favorites]
But Pete is talking about high-end fancy places that used to have pastry chefs.
He’s also talking about high end fancy places that still do have pastry chefs, like the Pool. He even has the nerve to call out Stephanie Profs by name, because oh no, look at this lazy dessert menu with ice cream on it.
If he really wanted to make a point, he should have done so. Instead it’s just woe is me, I’m bored of ice cream and now I notice it everywhere.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 2:37 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
He’s also talking about high end fancy places that still do have pastry chefs, like the Pool. He even has the nerve to call out Stephanie Profs by name, because oh no, look at this lazy dessert menu with ice cream on it.
If he really wanted to make a point, he should have done so. Instead it’s just woe is me, I’m bored of ice cream and now I notice it everywhere.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 2:37 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
Everything about sundaes is terrible,
Next expose: kittens are awful. Also, have you tried puppy-kicking? Stupid puppies.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:43 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
Next expose: kittens are awful. Also, have you tried puppy-kicking? Stupid puppies.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:43 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
What I do notice is that a lot of sundaes seem to involve dumping 1. candy and 2. gross candy on top, and that this is figured as some kind of gesture toward robust working class classics or authenticity or something.
Most American mass-production candy is...well, it's not objectively that good. You don't enjoy, say, a milky way because it's made out of fine chocolate and good caramel, you enjoy it because it's a chewy sugar-bomb which has continuities with your childhood. Now, if you're at Dairy Queen and you get an ice cream product with generic American candy in it, that's one thing, but if you're actually out for dinner!
Also, tbh, I don't think candy goes very well with ice cream. Most candy is best at room temperature, where you can really taste the fattiness of the chocolate, caramel is liquidy, etc. Once you dump it on ice cream, chocolate becomes waxy and caramel hardens. That's why we have, eg, chocolate sauce and caramel sauce specifically for ice cream - to get the flavors without the problems with candy.
Oh sure, restaurants appear to offer desserts. But where once it would have been a list of tarts and mille-feuille, of savarins and delices, of things requiring proper pastry work, now there are just unstable creamy things on a plate.
I do feel like, as part of the general crapification of everything that isn't for the 1%, there's some push to get cooking without the practice on pastry. Intuition and inborn skill can carry you very far with savory dishes (not that chefs don't get actual, like, savory-dish training, of course) but pastry requires the old 10,000 hours and your skills lapse if you don't use them*. Inequality is what makes things shitty - the pressure to pay people little, the pressure to get trained and cooking as soon as possible, the pressure to keep prices low, all this stems from a society where the rich hog all the money.
*A couple of years ago I was baking at least once a week, I had four or five good recipes by heart and could make just about anything I put my mind to; now I bake a few times a year and while I can still turn out something decent it's just not the same as when I made, like, tarts all the time.
posted by Frowner at 5:14 AM on April 11, 2018 [30 favorites]
Most American mass-production candy is...well, it's not objectively that good. You don't enjoy, say, a milky way because it's made out of fine chocolate and good caramel, you enjoy it because it's a chewy sugar-bomb which has continuities with your childhood. Now, if you're at Dairy Queen and you get an ice cream product with generic American candy in it, that's one thing, but if you're actually out for dinner!
Also, tbh, I don't think candy goes very well with ice cream. Most candy is best at room temperature, where you can really taste the fattiness of the chocolate, caramel is liquidy, etc. Once you dump it on ice cream, chocolate becomes waxy and caramel hardens. That's why we have, eg, chocolate sauce and caramel sauce specifically for ice cream - to get the flavors without the problems with candy.
Oh sure, restaurants appear to offer desserts. But where once it would have been a list of tarts and mille-feuille, of savarins and delices, of things requiring proper pastry work, now there are just unstable creamy things on a plate.
I do feel like, as part of the general crapification of everything that isn't for the 1%, there's some push to get cooking without the practice on pastry. Intuition and inborn skill can carry you very far with savory dishes (not that chefs don't get actual, like, savory-dish training, of course) but pastry requires the old 10,000 hours and your skills lapse if you don't use them*. Inequality is what makes things shitty - the pressure to pay people little, the pressure to get trained and cooking as soon as possible, the pressure to keep prices low, all this stems from a society where the rich hog all the money.
*A couple of years ago I was baking at least once a week, I had four or five good recipes by heart and could make just about anything I put my mind to; now I bake a few times a year and while I can still turn out something decent it's just not the same as when I made, like, tarts all the time.
posted by Frowner at 5:14 AM on April 11, 2018 [30 favorites]
It is a symptom of how the dining scene in NYC is fundamentally broken. The economics don't work right now.
I do feel like, as part of the general crapification of everything that isn't for the 1%
Nah - this also represents the crapification of things for 1% as well. These are restos where dinner for 2 with wine is 200+ and are non special occasion type places.
posted by JPD at 5:14 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
I do feel like, as part of the general crapification of everything that isn't for the 1%
Nah - this also represents the crapification of things for 1% as well. These are restos where dinner for 2 with wine is 200+ and are non special occasion type places.
posted by JPD at 5:14 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
In case you're wondering: the sound you just heard was the primal scream of rage from my five-year-old daughter upon learning that this article exists.
posted by Mayor West at 5:18 AM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Mayor West at 5:18 AM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
I don't get to do much fine dining--mostly from income--but I would be slightly disappointed if I were paying for a rare nice meal out and there was only ice cream available on the dessert menu.
posted by Kitteh at 5:29 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 5:29 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yes Sundae's are wonderful. But when you go to this sort of restaurant the expectation should be that the pastry program is every bit as valued as the savory side of the ledger. That's what this article is about, the dumbing down of dining, and what's interesting is that it is really driven by the economics.
posted by JPD at 5:30 AM on April 11, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by JPD at 5:30 AM on April 11, 2018 [16 favorites]
A perfect excuse to post this. Watch it with your favorite protégé. It's a mousse thing, too!
As for sundaes, it's just way too much ice cream for me, and then all the other goop on it. It's just off-putting. Then again, I'm more of a savory person, though I'll have dessert usually at holiday family dinners where I know there will be pie. I almost never order desserts in restaurants.
posted by droplet at 5:34 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
As for sundaes, it's just way too much ice cream for me, and then all the other goop on it. It's just off-putting. Then again, I'm more of a savory person, though I'll have dessert usually at holiday family dinners where I know there will be pie. I almost never order desserts in restaurants.
posted by droplet at 5:34 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Everything about sundaes is terrible, from the idiotic name, through the absence of any taste but syrupy sweetness, to the childish faith that making a big heap of something has got to make it great.
Sing it, Segundus.
When I was about to turn 9, I informed my parents I was much too old now for a birthday party, and they nodded sagely and took me to the fanciest ice cream joint in town instead. I was beyond excited. This is India in the 1980s, and even though I lived in a big city, ice cream was spoken of with hushed reverence. Good ice cream was eaten maybe once or twice a year. It was expensive. And here I was, being offered a menu at a place that served nothing but ice cream! Unheard of!
I flipped through the menu carefully.
"What's this word?" I asked the waiter. "How is it pronounced?"
"Just like the day, little sister," he said. "The best day of the week."
"Thank you. I think I will have this chocolate Sunday."
It arrived in a tall glass pedestal bowl. It was chocolate ice cream with hot chocolate fudge, whipped cream, and a cherry. The cherry smelled like medicine, so I gave it to my three-year-old sister. She put it in her mouth and then spit it right out. It was not an auspicious beginning.
Whipped cream did not make an impression on me, because I cannot recall how it tasted. The hot fudge was nice the first couple of licks, and then it became cloyingly sweet. The ice cream was much too cold and it hurt my teeth and anyway chocolate ice cream is an abomination regardless. (Nothing outside vanilla-based flavors and fruit sorbets should exist.)
My dad encouraged me to take bites with all the elements all at once. "It's better that way," he said. He and my mom had nice little bowls of pistachio ice cream, naked. I wanted that. But my parents had told me when I was very small that pistachio was something only adults liked and kids like chocolate, and that had imprinted on me to the extent that for years afterward I only ate chocolate ice cream without question.
I dipped the long spoon all the way down the bowl and scooped a gunky-looking mix of ice cream, fudge, and whipped cream. It looked better than each individual element in isolation. It did not taste good.
I left my 50-rupee (FIFTY RUPEES!) chocolate sundae unfinished. My parents exchanged dark looks and were quiet on our way back home. If it hadn't literally been my birthday, I'm sure I would have had an earful.
I lost my taste for ice cream entirely that night. I didn't regain it except briefly during my first pregnancy when my taste buds were all out of whack, rejecting pizza and downing strawberries by the pint. I regard my offspring with serious suspicion when they order sundaes and seem to enjoy them. These are not the genes I wished to pass down.
posted by MiraK at 5:42 AM on April 11, 2018 [27 favorites]
Sing it, Segundus.
When I was about to turn 9, I informed my parents I was much too old now for a birthday party, and they nodded sagely and took me to the fanciest ice cream joint in town instead. I was beyond excited. This is India in the 1980s, and even though I lived in a big city, ice cream was spoken of with hushed reverence. Good ice cream was eaten maybe once or twice a year. It was expensive. And here I was, being offered a menu at a place that served nothing but ice cream! Unheard of!
I flipped through the menu carefully.
"What's this word?" I asked the waiter. "How is it pronounced?"
"Just like the day, little sister," he said. "The best day of the week."
"Thank you. I think I will have this chocolate Sunday."
It arrived in a tall glass pedestal bowl. It was chocolate ice cream with hot chocolate fudge, whipped cream, and a cherry. The cherry smelled like medicine, so I gave it to my three-year-old sister. She put it in her mouth and then spit it right out. It was not an auspicious beginning.
Whipped cream did not make an impression on me, because I cannot recall how it tasted. The hot fudge was nice the first couple of licks, and then it became cloyingly sweet. The ice cream was much too cold and it hurt my teeth and anyway chocolate ice cream is an abomination regardless. (Nothing outside vanilla-based flavors and fruit sorbets should exist.)
My dad encouraged me to take bites with all the elements all at once. "It's better that way," he said. He and my mom had nice little bowls of pistachio ice cream, naked. I wanted that. But my parents had told me when I was very small that pistachio was something only adults liked and kids like chocolate, and that had imprinted on me to the extent that for years afterward I only ate chocolate ice cream without question.
I dipped the long spoon all the way down the bowl and scooped a gunky-looking mix of ice cream, fudge, and whipped cream. It looked better than each individual element in isolation. It did not taste good.
I left my 50-rupee (FIFTY RUPEES!) chocolate sundae unfinished. My parents exchanged dark looks and were quiet on our way back home. If it hadn't literally been my birthday, I'm sure I would have had an earful.
I lost my taste for ice cream entirely that night. I didn't regain it except briefly during my first pregnancy when my taste buds were all out of whack, rejecting pizza and downing strawberries by the pint. I regard my offspring with serious suspicion when they order sundaes and seem to enjoy them. These are not the genes I wished to pass down.
posted by MiraK at 5:42 AM on April 11, 2018 [27 favorites]
Damn, now I wish I could go to Herrell’s for a delicious hot fudge sundae later today. I’d maybe even go to a nice restaurant for dinner beforehand.
posted by defenestration at 5:49 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by defenestration at 5:49 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think maybe the preponderance of sundaes on American dessert menus is not so different from what we see in other countries. In France there is are Îles flottantes for example: widespread, inexpensive to provide, popular and very rarely done well. In the UK we have "Banoffee Pie" - this was, I gather, eventually disowned by its inventor - but is found everywhere for similar reasons.
And in terms of the wider cultural impact of the America-invented sundae? I would recommend looking at what the Cubans have done with them - and particularly in the government run "Copelia" cafe in Havana. It serves ice cream at a price of about 24 scoops to the dollar - at the end of an hour long queue along with some of the 35,000 customers per day that frequent the place. Sundaes are a sort of universal right and Fidel himself as a fan. Actual culinary results, as with many things Cuban, vary unpredictably. My sundae came with a wafer that proved not just to look like a disk of cardboard but to actually be one.
posted by rongorongo at 5:51 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
And in terms of the wider cultural impact of the America-invented sundae? I would recommend looking at what the Cubans have done with them - and particularly in the government run "Copelia" cafe in Havana. It serves ice cream at a price of about 24 scoops to the dollar - at the end of an hour long queue along with some of the 35,000 customers per day that frequent the place. Sundaes are a sort of universal right and Fidel himself as a fan. Actual culinary results, as with many things Cuban, vary unpredictably. My sundae came with a wafer that proved not just to look like a disk of cardboard but to actually be one.
posted by rongorongo at 5:51 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
Everything about this article is 100% wrong. Maybe he has some kind of brain tumor. I feel sad for him.
My favorite sundae is the brownie waffle sundae at the 101 Coffee Shop in L.A...somehow they figured out how to get brownies to work in the waffle iron, so yeah, a full Belgian waffle with 3-4 scoops of ice cream and hot fudge and whipped cream etc. It's the perfect size for like 4 people, or, as I prefer, just as an entree.
The thing about there being no pastry chefs in restaurants is probably right, but at the fancy end, probably not because of budgets, but probably more because all the pastry chefs went and opened all those cupcake and bacon donut and macaroon places after being pushed out of the way by all those molecular-intestinal chefs serving up liquid nitrogen taffy balloons or whatever.
posted by sexyrobot at 6:17 AM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
My favorite sundae is the brownie waffle sundae at the 101 Coffee Shop in L.A...somehow they figured out how to get brownies to work in the waffle iron, so yeah, a full Belgian waffle with 3-4 scoops of ice cream and hot fudge and whipped cream etc. It's the perfect size for like 4 people, or, as I prefer, just as an entree.
The thing about there being no pastry chefs in restaurants is probably right, but at the fancy end, probably not because of budgets, but probably more because all the pastry chefs went and opened all those cupcake and bacon donut and macaroon places after being pushed out of the way by all those molecular-intestinal chefs serving up liquid nitrogen taffy balloons or whatever.
posted by sexyrobot at 6:17 AM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
somehow they figured out how to get brownies to work in the waffle iron
Mefi's own?
posted by mosst at 6:21 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
Mefi's own?
posted by mosst at 6:21 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
Dessert was put on this planet in order to surprise us.
And here, accidentally I'm sure, we find the defining difference between food critics and the rest of humanity.
posted by Automocar at 6:25 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
And here, accidentally I'm sure, we find the defining difference between food critics and the rest of humanity.
posted by Automocar at 6:25 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
Have you had one of these? You generally find it in a shallow bowl or even on a plate, held in place by a patch of stale cake crumbs. I’ve had about a hundred of them over the past few years.
Step aside, loggers and fisherfolk. Behold the most dangerous job in America.
posted by belarius at 6:28 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
Step aside, loggers and fisherfolk. Behold the most dangerous job in America.
posted by belarius at 6:28 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
lmao, I’m imaging someone with wide eyes and a look of surprise every time they get dessert
posted by defenestration at 6:28 AM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by defenestration at 6:28 AM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'll grant that I eat out infrequently and that I don't go to very expensive places when I do, and such places are not always in New York (the classiest joint I was at within the past six months was the Italian place my parents and I went to on Christmas Eve in Cape Cod).
But I'm honestly baffled by this because - what is this he's saying about alternatives to sundaes not being on the menu? Seriously, every time I eat out and there's a dessert menu, there are usually five or six options, and most of them are non-ice cream ones. I've sometimes gone for ice cream as the "I am full but still want something sweet" option, if no one else wants to go the "want to all split the chocolate tart?" route. And it's usually just "ice cream in a bowl", not a sundae.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:33 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
But I'm honestly baffled by this because - what is this he's saying about alternatives to sundaes not being on the menu? Seriously, every time I eat out and there's a dessert menu, there are usually five or six options, and most of them are non-ice cream ones. I've sometimes gone for ice cream as the "I am full but still want something sweet" option, if no one else wants to go the "want to all split the chocolate tart?" route. And it's usually just "ice cream in a bowl", not a sundae.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:33 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
The restaurant industry in NYC is pretty darn close to that perfect competition the econ textbooks talk about. The article says making traditional pastry is hugely labor-intensive. If customers valued them enough, the restaurants would offer them.
So basically this guy who eats out on an expense account every day in one of the most expensive dining cities in the world is complaining that the market isn't supporting the fancy dishes he likes.
Cue sound of the world's smallest violin...
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:40 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
So basically this guy who eats out on an expense account every day in one of the most expensive dining cities in the world is complaining that the market isn't supporting the fancy dishes he likes.
Cue sound of the world's smallest violin...
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:40 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'd put my kids review of the ice cream machine crossed with the chocolate fountain at Golden Corral against this author any day ..
posted by k5.user at 6:42 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by k5.user at 6:42 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
I love ice cream; it's my favorite dessert, bar none. But when I go to a really nice restaurant, I want something I can't get at home. Something someone has trained for years to make spectacularly. And that's almost always some kind of baked, flavorful, and fantastic pastry dessert.
Also, I like my ice cream plain, so I can taste it. Even with vanilla, I'd rather taste the flavor of a well-made ice cream than bury it under syrups and crumbles. And definitely without whipped cream, even fresh.
Pete's not wrong about the economics of restaurants in NYC, though. The rent is unreal and some of my favorite places had to close because of the obscene rents. However, I'm finding it hard to believe that many of the restaurants in NYC that Pete has gone to have dropped everything but sundaes from the menu. I've never had a problem ordering a non-ice cream item from a dessert menu.
posted by ceejaytee at 6:55 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, I like my ice cream plain, so I can taste it. Even with vanilla, I'd rather taste the flavor of a well-made ice cream than bury it under syrups and crumbles. And definitely without whipped cream, even fresh.
Pete's not wrong about the economics of restaurants in NYC, though. The rent is unreal and some of my favorite places had to close because of the obscene rents. However, I'm finding it hard to believe that many of the restaurants in NYC that Pete has gone to have dropped everything but sundaes from the menu. I've never had a problem ordering a non-ice cream item from a dessert menu.
posted by ceejaytee at 6:55 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
it's probably like 2-3 restaurants but they're the ones he really likes and therefore that makes them EVERY RESTAURANT IN NEW YORK
we have a little trouble with perspective here
posted by poffin boffin at 7:04 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
we have a little trouble with perspective here
posted by poffin boffin at 7:04 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
just 'cause it's "lazy"
assembling a sundae isn't lazy; lazy is eating ice cream straight from the carton, not that i know anything about that nosireebob
posted by entropicamericana at 7:08 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
assembling a sundae isn't lazy; lazy is eating ice cream straight from the carton, not that i know anything about that nosireebob
posted by entropicamericana at 7:08 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
For nostalgia trips to work, you need to have the sensation of opening a memory you haven’t examined in a long time. Do it too often and the returns diminish rapidly.This broad point about nostalgia is a good one.
That said, though, for how many people is some high-concept fancy-pants $25 dessert, served in a high-end restaurant full of rich adults, really going to be a "nostalgia trip?"
posted by Western Infidels at 7:13 AM on April 11, 2018
la recherche du noms perdus
posted by poffin boffin at 7:17 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 7:17 AM on April 11, 2018 [13 favorites]
I'll grant that I eat out infrequently...But I'm honestly baffled by this because...
So, you're saying that even though the kind of places he's writing about are not those you have experience with, you're baffled because the kind of places you have experience with aren't like those he's writing about?
posted by neroli at 7:17 AM on April 11, 2018 [16 favorites]
So, you're saying that even though the kind of places he's writing about are not those you have experience with, you're baffled because the kind of places you have experience with aren't like those he's writing about?
posted by neroli at 7:17 AM on April 11, 2018 [16 favorites]
lazy is eating ice cream straight from the carton, not that i know anything about that nosireebob....is this not how most normal people eat ice cream at home? Genuinely puzzled.
posted by inconstant at 7:33 AM on April 11, 2018
Oh, wait, I think I get it -- cartons that are usually meant for sharing and therefore the done thing is to put it into another container first. Sorry, deeply ingrained singledom.
posted by inconstant at 7:34 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 7:34 AM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
people occasionally whisper in hushed awe of legendary heroes out there who do not actually finish a pint of ben & jerry's in one sitting, but i've never actually met one
posted by entropicamericana at 7:38 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 7:38 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
as a critic you are basically concerned with the marginal fine dining restaurant, and its very clear that what he's talking about is true - the depreciation of the pastry chef.
posted by JPD at 7:45 AM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by JPD at 7:45 AM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
Ice cream is the best, but I've never been particularly impressed by ice cream at a restaurant. Granted, I am biased: New England in general and Massachusetts in particular are really big on local ice cream stands (year round -- I don't care if there's snow on the ground, we're still going out for ice cream!). I grew up getting ice cream from a stand literally on the farm where you could visit the cows that made the milk that made the ice cream. This is still a thing today, though there's been some local consolidation (there's a couple distributors that sell to stands these days, so you can find the same flavors at unrelated stores at times).
Point is: we love ice cream in MA.
And yet, in MA and elsewhere, getting ice cream at a restaurant is usually an exercise in disappointment. I've had better ice cream from room service at a budget hotel (because where else are you getting ice cream in a random city at 11pm?) than I have had at expensive (and legitimately good) restaurants. It seems like the majority of the time it's an afterthought at best, waffling between boring or over-done.
So I guess I kinda get where the article is coming from? I'm way more impressed by pastries at a restaurant, if they have them. If the only thing they have is a couple ice cream options plus one or two things that are pre-made and just requiring putting on a plate, that's a good sign that the dessert is not worth it there.
posted by tocts at 7:46 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
Point is: we love ice cream in MA.
And yet, in MA and elsewhere, getting ice cream at a restaurant is usually an exercise in disappointment. I've had better ice cream from room service at a budget hotel (because where else are you getting ice cream in a random city at 11pm?) than I have had at expensive (and legitimately good) restaurants. It seems like the majority of the time it's an afterthought at best, waffling between boring or over-done.
So I guess I kinda get where the article is coming from? I'm way more impressed by pastries at a restaurant, if they have them. If the only thing they have is a couple ice cream options plus one or two things that are pre-made and just requiring putting on a plate, that's a good sign that the dessert is not worth it there.
posted by tocts at 7:46 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
The problem with sundays isn't that they deprive pastry chefs of work. (The world really doesn't need pasty chefs.) It's that they're never anywhere near as tasty as a plain scoop of ice creme would have been without all the treacly toppings thrown on. Every dessert at a mid-scale restaurant is the equivalent of a "garbage pizza:" the reductio ad absurdum approach to "more is better."
But that's the problem with all restaurant desert. Cheesecake is great. Cheesecake with chocolate chips and strawberry sauce is disgusting. A well-crafted mouse is great. A well-crafted mouse slathered in raspberry jam, chocolate syrup, and too-sweet whipped creme is inedible. You can't even get a decent cannoli without some hipster jerk smearing pistachio-colored-sugar over the whole thing. Last time I ordered a mango it came with artisan-flavored honey on top. (On a mango! Are you fucking kidding me?) I'd be a lot happier if the chef just smacked me in the face with a bucket of butterscotch topping and then left me alone to eat an unmolested dessert in peace, instead of pouring sugar-coated-garbage on everything.
I've yet to meet a restaurant desert in the US that didn't lower my opinion of the restaurant.
posted by eotvos at 7:59 AM on April 11, 2018
But that's the problem with all restaurant desert. Cheesecake is great. Cheesecake with chocolate chips and strawberry sauce is disgusting. A well-crafted mouse is great. A well-crafted mouse slathered in raspberry jam, chocolate syrup, and too-sweet whipped creme is inedible. You can't even get a decent cannoli without some hipster jerk smearing pistachio-colored-sugar over the whole thing. Last time I ordered a mango it came with artisan-flavored honey on top. (On a mango! Are you fucking kidding me?) I'd be a lot happier if the chef just smacked me in the face with a bucket of butterscotch topping and then left me alone to eat an unmolested dessert in peace, instead of pouring sugar-coated-garbage on everything.
I've yet to meet a restaurant desert in the US that didn't lower my opinion of the restaurant.
posted by eotvos at 7:59 AM on April 11, 2018
The world really doesn't need past[r]y chefs.
Your world is different than mine and sounds very depressing.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:01 AM on April 11, 2018 [28 favorites]
Your world is different than mine and sounds very depressing.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:01 AM on April 11, 2018 [28 favorites]
Guys, this is the kind of place he is focusing on:
He does mention the Pool, but that complex of restaurants is all pretty much explicitly for rich people who want to spend a lot of money in a lavish setting without tasting anything too much. (Also, the Times review, also written by Wells only six months ago, calls out the relatively complex and ambitious desserts: "Ms. Prida, who until a few months ago was the pastry chef at Manresa in Los Gatos, Calif., has a knack for combining flavors that seem to get more interesting as you go along, like a crème brûlée with shaved plums and bitter almond ice cream under a squiggle of reduced sherry vinegar, or coconut parfait and fluffy pink-grapefruit mousse sandwiched between the thinnest possible layers of matcha sablé", so....)
Dovetail, on the other hand, is a bit more ambitious than that, but apparently that sundae is fine? I don't get it. I like a complex dessert. I had a fantastic one in London last year that completely overcame all my general disdain for the combination of berries and chocolate. But this is just a trend, not a mass reversion to childhood. Let the people have their sundaes!
posted by praemunire at 8:03 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
Generally it is found in restaurants that have a healthy sense of their own self-worth but don’t have too many bells and whistles to show for it: the wine bars, the gastro pubs, the all-day cafes, the 28-seat, no-reservations spot opened by a young chef who has cooked in Paris or Copenhagen.By NYC standards, these are not very high-end places. Don't get me wrong, my own personal current salary doesn't allow me to dine casually at such places. But these are mostly upper-mid-range.
He does mention the Pool, but that complex of restaurants is all pretty much explicitly for rich people who want to spend a lot of money in a lavish setting without tasting anything too much. (Also, the Times review, also written by Wells only six months ago, calls out the relatively complex and ambitious desserts: "Ms. Prida, who until a few months ago was the pastry chef at Manresa in Los Gatos, Calif., has a knack for combining flavors that seem to get more interesting as you go along, like a crème brûlée with shaved plums and bitter almond ice cream under a squiggle of reduced sherry vinegar, or coconut parfait and fluffy pink-grapefruit mousse sandwiched between the thinnest possible layers of matcha sablé", so....)
Dovetail, on the other hand, is a bit more ambitious than that, but apparently that sundae is fine? I don't get it. I like a complex dessert. I had a fantastic one in London last year that completely overcame all my general disdain for the combination of berries and chocolate. But this is just a trend, not a mass reversion to childhood. Let the people have their sundaes!
posted by praemunire at 8:03 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
You know, there's a lot wrong with journalism right now. Some of it is truly horrifying. But I still think my very least favorite trend is people publishing articles about how food they don't like should be abolished and how everyone who likes it is stupid.
posted by tangosnail at 8:10 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by tangosnail at 8:10 AM on April 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, those kinds of pieces are annoying. Good thing this isn't one.
posted by neroli at 8:13 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by neroli at 8:13 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
Ice cream Sundaes are the dessert equivalent of charcuterie plates on appetizer menus.
posted by Keith Talent at 8:26 AM on April 11, 2018
posted by Keith Talent at 8:26 AM on April 11, 2018
By NYC standards, these are not very high-end places. Don't get me wrong, my own personal current salary doesn't allow me to dine casually at such places. But these are mostly upper-mid-range.
This is literally the only thing opening in NYC right now, and I guarantee you they work out to on average 100/head.
I'll fire people up about something else:
Frenchette
The new restaurant from the former chefs @ Minetta Tavern. A wonderful recreation of a classic downtown place, where the new rendition was really incredibly well prepared French classics/French twists on Steakhouse (their opening Cote de Boeuf was the best steak in town). Their original menu included a few hamburgers, including "The Black Label Burger" which just became a monster. Eventually something like 80% of the tables were just ordering burgers and not the (great) French stuff. So the chefs became surplus to the restaurant. They left, and now they are out on their own vowing not to put a burger on their menu.
posted by JPD at 8:31 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is literally the only thing opening in NYC right now, and I guarantee you they work out to on average 100/head.
I'll fire people up about something else:
Frenchette
The new restaurant from the former chefs @ Minetta Tavern. A wonderful recreation of a classic downtown place, where the new rendition was really incredibly well prepared French classics/French twists on Steakhouse (their opening Cote de Boeuf was the best steak in town). Their original menu included a few hamburgers, including "The Black Label Burger" which just became a monster. Eventually something like 80% of the tables were just ordering burgers and not the (great) French stuff. So the chefs became surplus to the restaurant. They left, and now they are out on their own vowing not to put a burger on their menu.
posted by JPD at 8:31 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
The world really doesn't need past[r]y chefs.
Your world is different than mine and sounds very depressing.
Very excited for the first restaurant to serve a glass of milk and bag of sugar as dessert.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:33 AM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
Your world is different than mine and sounds very depressing.
Very excited for the first restaurant to serve a glass of milk and bag of sugar as dessert.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:33 AM on April 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
whether or not sundaes are destroying civilization is tangential to the horrifying issue that some sundaes (as well as fro yo toppings) include candy like gummibears. gummibears! on a frozen dessert. this is in direct violation of international criminal statutes.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:37 AM on April 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:37 AM on April 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
Professional food writers that describe depression or despair brought on by restaurant ice cream should retire.
Why eat dessert at a savory restaurant anyway when most cities (especially those with a good-sized Korean or Chinese population) have tons of specialty shops for dessert - Korean snow desserts, boba, milk tea.. and what about all of those cupcake places everyone loves to hate?
posted by Docrailgun at 8:41 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Why eat dessert at a savory restaurant anyway when most cities (especially those with a good-sized Korean or Chinese population) have tons of specialty shops for dessert - Korean snow desserts, boba, milk tea.. and what about all of those cupcake places everyone loves to hate?
posted by Docrailgun at 8:41 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
So, you're saying that even though the kind of places he's writing about are not those you have experience with, you're baffled because the kind of places you have experience with aren't like those he's writing about?
My confusion is coming from the fact that he is taking his experience at a handful of restaurants and assuming that this is therefore the case at every other restaurant on Earth and all possible other variants of Earth in all possible known and unknown dimensions. If his point was "high-end restaurants are starting to fall back on sundaes as a dessert option too much", or if he'd even said "it seems to be a new trend in fine dining to fall back on sundaes for desserts", that'd be different. But he didn't say that; he said "restaurants are cutting out everything but sundaes" and that's why I'm all, "but....no?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
My confusion is coming from the fact that he is taking his experience at a handful of restaurants and assuming that this is therefore the case at every other restaurant on Earth and all possible other variants of Earth in all possible known and unknown dimensions. If his point was "high-end restaurants are starting to fall back on sundaes as a dessert option too much", or if he'd even said "it seems to be a new trend in fine dining to fall back on sundaes for desserts", that'd be different. But he didn't say that; he said "restaurants are cutting out everything but sundaes" and that's why I'm all, "but....no?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I want to reiterate that I love ice cream, and in no way do I stand with this tool's opinion beyond being in the general hand grenades and horseshoes range of agreeing with the general idea that ordering ice cream in most restaurants is usually disappointing.
I was just trying to elaborate on what happens behind the scenes at a lot of cheaper to middling sit down places that don't have a focus on ice cream on the dessert menu. They're just buying whatever brand from Sysco, shoving it in the back of the freezer and calling it a day.
As for me, I like even bad ice cream. I've even made ice cream in the middle of the desert with the double ziplock bag method just because someone happened to have all the ingredients there. (They brought heavy cream and sugar for coffee, and we had ice and dry ice and salt.)
It turned out all crystally and sludgy but it might have been the best ice cream ever, because it was like 120 frickin' degrees out and briefly it was probably the only ice cream within 100 miles. Watching people's faces light right up when I offered them a spoonful of ice cream out of a frozen bag in the middle of the scorching desert was pretty great.
posted by loquacious at 9:16 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was just trying to elaborate on what happens behind the scenes at a lot of cheaper to middling sit down places that don't have a focus on ice cream on the dessert menu. They're just buying whatever brand from Sysco, shoving it in the back of the freezer and calling it a day.
As for me, I like even bad ice cream. I've even made ice cream in the middle of the desert with the double ziplock bag method just because someone happened to have all the ingredients there. (They brought heavy cream and sugar for coffee, and we had ice and dry ice and salt.)
It turned out all crystally and sludgy but it might have been the best ice cream ever, because it was like 120 frickin' degrees out and briefly it was probably the only ice cream within 100 miles. Watching people's faces light right up when I offered them a spoonful of ice cream out of a frozen bag in the middle of the scorching desert was pretty great.
posted by loquacious at 9:16 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Count me among those who prefer an unadorned scoop of good quality ice cream to any sundae, especially those made with mediocre ice cream. And good quality ice cream is rarely found in restaurants that are not dedicated ice cream shops.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:16 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:16 AM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
My confusion is coming from the fact that he is taking his experience at a handful of restaurants and assuming that this is therefore the case at every other restaurant on Earth and all possible other variants of Earth in all possible known and unknown dimensions.
My confusion at your confusion is coming from the fact that, um, he's actually not? He says he's talking about a recent trend in new NYC restaurants like five times, starting from the very first sentence, and further specifies that he's mostly talking about a very particular subset of places ("the wine bars, the gastro pubs, the all-day cafes, the 28-seat, no-reservations spot opened by a young chef who has cooked in Paris or Copenhagen").
It's actually a narrowly-focused, inside-baseball piece about the effects of the current financial situation facing middle-high-end restaurants in Manhattan and Brooklyn, and it's pretty explicit about that. But it seems like most people are just reading the clickbait-y headline rather than the actual article.
posted by neroli at 9:23 AM on April 11, 2018 [12 favorites]
My confusion at your confusion is coming from the fact that, um, he's actually not? He says he's talking about a recent trend in new NYC restaurants like five times, starting from the very first sentence, and further specifies that he's mostly talking about a very particular subset of places ("the wine bars, the gastro pubs, the all-day cafes, the 28-seat, no-reservations spot opened by a young chef who has cooked in Paris or Copenhagen").
It's actually a narrowly-focused, inside-baseball piece about the effects of the current financial situation facing middle-high-end restaurants in Manhattan and Brooklyn, and it's pretty explicit about that. But it seems like most people are just reading the clickbait-y headline rather than the actual article.
posted by neroli at 9:23 AM on April 11, 2018 [12 favorites]
Would a pastry chef also have done pastry for savory dishes? Are middle-high-end diners in Manhattan and Brooklyn avoiding wheat?
posted by clew at 9:40 AM on April 11, 2018
posted by clew at 9:40 AM on April 11, 2018
This is literally the only thing opening in NYC right now, and I guarantee you they work out to on average 100/head.
Which is only upper-mid-range. I didn't invent the NYC economy, I just wander around in it!
Would a pastry chef also have done pastry for savory dishes? Are middle-high-end diners in Manhattan and Brooklyn avoiding wheat?
This could change, like, tomorrow, but there really aren't many savory pastry dishes out there right now, now that we are past the moment of the $35 "comfort" pot pie.
posted by praemunire at 9:48 AM on April 11, 2018
Which is only upper-mid-range. I didn't invent the NYC economy, I just wander around in it!
Would a pastry chef also have done pastry for savory dishes? Are middle-high-end diners in Manhattan and Brooklyn avoiding wheat?
This could change, like, tomorrow, but there really aren't many savory pastry dishes out there right now, now that we are past the moment of the $35 "comfort" pot pie.
posted by praemunire at 9:48 AM on April 11, 2018
I am often critical of Pete Wells' rants, but I'm pretty much with him on this. Look, I like ice cream. And at more casual places, sundae desserts make more sense. Further, in fine-dining I think that the now-standard "three small scoops of gelato, at least one of which is an unusual flavor" simple dessert is ABSOLUTELY FINE and meets a defined need.
But in high-end restaurants, I am really disappointed when the other dessert options are also basically sundaes, especially as they're often kind of silly things that don't really match the dinner menu. I'm at your expensive, sophisticated restaurant to enjoy what a great chef can do with food -- savory and sweet. Dessert isn't there to be a reward for finishing my pork chop like a good girl.
(We're actually bit more fortunate in Philadelphia in this regard, because we have a lot of small restaurants run by couples where one partner is a classic pastry chef. )
posted by desuetude at 10:21 AM on April 11, 2018
But in high-end restaurants, I am really disappointed when the other dessert options are also basically sundaes, especially as they're often kind of silly things that don't really match the dinner menu. I'm at your expensive, sophisticated restaurant to enjoy what a great chef can do with food -- savory and sweet. Dessert isn't there to be a reward for finishing my pork chop like a good girl.
(We're actually bit more fortunate in Philadelphia in this regard, because we have a lot of small restaurants run by couples where one partner is a classic pastry chef. )
posted by desuetude at 10:21 AM on April 11, 2018
Every dessert at a mid-scale restaurant is the equivalent of a "garbage pizza"
Cheesecake with chocolate chips and strawberry sauce is disgusting
I've yet to meet a restaurant desert in the US that didn't lower my opinion of the restaurant.
Stop going to Applebee's.
posted by Tarumba at 10:31 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
Cheesecake with chocolate chips and strawberry sauce is disgusting
I've yet to meet a restaurant desert in the US that didn't lower my opinion of the restaurant.
Stop going to Applebee's.
posted by Tarumba at 10:31 AM on April 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
It takes like zero skill to assemble a sundae- this is a way to save money on the behalf of the restaurant.
I'm thinking this is behind the sudden explosion of popularity in Poke, which scratches much the same itch flavour and texture wise for me as sushi rolls, but is presumably much, much, much easier to assemble.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:34 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm thinking this is behind the sudden explosion of popularity in Poke, which scratches much the same itch flavour and texture wise for me as sushi rolls, but is presumably much, much, much easier to assemble.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:34 AM on April 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
"So basically this guy who eats out on an expense account every day in one of the most expensive dining cities in the world is complaining that the market isn't supporting the fancy dishes he likes. "
Weirdly, it's also the one of the most affordable dining cities in the US. I don't have a huge appetite, but I've found I can have an incredible dinner for seven dollars that tastes better than a 30$ dinner in most American towns.
Now that I give the matter more thought, when I go out to eat one of the things I look for is 'can I make this at home', and with sundaes, yes, I can make them at home; and wouldn't (although a root beer float is another thing).
posted by el io at 12:19 PM on April 11, 2018
Weirdly, it's also the one of the most affordable dining cities in the US. I don't have a huge appetite, but I've found I can have an incredible dinner for seven dollars that tastes better than a 30$ dinner in most American towns.
Now that I give the matter more thought, when I go out to eat one of the things I look for is 'can I make this at home', and with sundaes, yes, I can make them at home; and wouldn't (although a root beer float is another thing).
posted by el io at 12:19 PM on April 11, 2018
assembling a sundae isn't lazy; lazy is eating ice cream straight from the carton, not that i know anything about that nosireebob
No, no, what's really lazy is attempting to eat an entire half gallon of Moose Tracks, falling asleep halfway through, waking up, shrugging and drinking the chunky milkshake that was left several hours later. I know too much about that. I never did that again. Guh, much heartburn, so regret.
I'm thinking this is behind the sudden explosion of popularity in Poke,
Heh, I was away from Seattle for several months recently and when I returned for a visit I was really confused about how there were suddenly poke joints everywhere. It was like there was one on every other block from the ferry docks all the way up to Capitol Hill.
posted by loquacious at 1:04 PM on April 11, 2018
No, no, what's really lazy is attempting to eat an entire half gallon of Moose Tracks, falling asleep halfway through, waking up, shrugging and drinking the chunky milkshake that was left several hours later. I know too much about that. I never did that again. Guh, much heartburn, so regret.
I'm thinking this is behind the sudden explosion of popularity in Poke,
Heh, I was away from Seattle for several months recently and when I returned for a visit I was really confused about how there were suddenly poke joints everywhere. It was like there was one on every other block from the ferry docks all the way up to Capitol Hill.
posted by loquacious at 1:04 PM on April 11, 2018
I haven’t seen this because I’m not eating in fancy NYC restaurants, but I have noticed that the medium-fancy places I sometimes go to often have only a “trio” of gelatos and maybe some macarons, I guess the same forces are at work.
I think even the best macarons are cardboardy and the gelatos are always sophisticated flavors I’m not into like lavender or green tea, so I’m often disappointed.
posted by mrmurbles at 1:13 PM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think even the best macarons are cardboardy and the gelatos are always sophisticated flavors I’m not into like lavender or green tea, so I’m often disappointed.
posted by mrmurbles at 1:13 PM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sundaes are great if properly done --- I live way too close to an awesome LA ice cream shop that does great ones.
And while they might be on the "lazy" end of restaurant desserts, they're much too not-lazy for a home dessert. I might eat ice cream at home, but dessert at home that requires assembly is just not happening. So they are a "restaurant" type option to me, although I agree that dedicated ice cream shops are going to be much better on average than generic restaurant sundaes.
sudden explosion of popularity in Poke...but is presumably much, much, much easier to assemble.
Poke restaurants also tend to be much more specialized and lack, say, ways to heat food at all other than a rice cooker (no ovens / ranges / vents / etc). While you could have a sushi restaurant like that, in the US I've rarely seen ones that don't also have tempura and miso soup and maybe even cooked fish and so on.
Of course, none of this is inherent. In Japan sushi is absurdly cheap (you can get 2 pieces of nigiri for like a dollar). But thats presumably a volume type of issue (and maybe food perception). Poke in LA [which is almost literally everywhere] is more expensive than sushi in Japan (but cheaper than sushi in LA by a lot...)
posted by thefoxgod at 1:37 PM on April 11, 2018
And while they might be on the "lazy" end of restaurant desserts, they're much too not-lazy for a home dessert. I might eat ice cream at home, but dessert at home that requires assembly is just not happening. So they are a "restaurant" type option to me, although I agree that dedicated ice cream shops are going to be much better on average than generic restaurant sundaes.
sudden explosion of popularity in Poke...but is presumably much, much, much easier to assemble.
Poke restaurants also tend to be much more specialized and lack, say, ways to heat food at all other than a rice cooker (no ovens / ranges / vents / etc). While you could have a sushi restaurant like that, in the US I've rarely seen ones that don't also have tempura and miso soup and maybe even cooked fish and so on.
Of course, none of this is inherent. In Japan sushi is absurdly cheap (you can get 2 pieces of nigiri for like a dollar). But thats presumably a volume type of issue (and maybe food perception). Poke in LA [which is almost literally everywhere] is more expensive than sushi in Japan (but cheaper than sushi in LA by a lot...)
posted by thefoxgod at 1:37 PM on April 11, 2018
The poke trend in NYC has crested. Like places closing before the opened peaked. But it was a big wave.
posted by JPD at 2:44 PM on April 11, 2018
posted by JPD at 2:44 PM on April 11, 2018
Am I the only one that noticed the print version was titled 'Not Screaming for Ice Cream' and thus they changed the title to be more clickbaity?
posted by Merus at 3:25 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Merus at 3:25 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
what about all of those cupcake places everyone loves to hate?
I spotted two new cupcake bakeries near us in the past couple of days. We live in the midwest, outside a small dying industrial city, in one of those suburbs that has a name and a school district but no actual town. I said to my partner, "What's with the new cupcake places? I thought cupcakes were over." And then it occurred to me that perhaps there's no discrepancy, that cupcake shops having reached us doesn't mean cupcakes are still a thing, but is rather proof that cupcakes are indeed over everywhere urban, cool, and forward-thinking.
"Things are sure getting exciting around here," we say to each other. "We've even got some of them cupcake shops we heard about on TV." Meanwhile, on both coasts, cupcake shops stand empty, awaiting the day when a new trend is born and overnight bloom a thousand trendy little eateries serving gourmet grilled cheese or Nothin' But Nectarines! or whatever.
posted by Orlop at 5:16 PM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
I spotted two new cupcake bakeries near us in the past couple of days. We live in the midwest, outside a small dying industrial city, in one of those suburbs that has a name and a school district but no actual town. I said to my partner, "What's with the new cupcake places? I thought cupcakes were over." And then it occurred to me that perhaps there's no discrepancy, that cupcake shops having reached us doesn't mean cupcakes are still a thing, but is rather proof that cupcakes are indeed over everywhere urban, cool, and forward-thinking.
"Things are sure getting exciting around here," we say to each other. "We've even got some of them cupcake shops we heard about on TV." Meanwhile, on both coasts, cupcake shops stand empty, awaiting the day when a new trend is born and overnight bloom a thousand trendy little eateries serving gourmet grilled cheese or Nothin' But Nectarines! or whatever.
posted by Orlop at 5:16 PM on April 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
Gourmet grilled cheese is indeed a thing. A delightful, delightful thing. I'll not hear one word against it!
I don't know why cheap raw fish didn't catch on more. I just can't figure it out.
posted by praemunire at 5:46 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't know why cheap raw fish didn't catch on more. I just can't figure it out.
posted by praemunire at 5:46 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Gourmet grilled cheese hit New York at least 15 years ago, IIRC. But Nothin’ But Nectarines!? Sign me up.
posted by defenestration at 6:07 PM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by defenestration at 6:07 PM on April 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
Gourmet grilled cheese seems to have died the death and I'm very sad.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:44 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 6:44 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, on both coasts, cupcake shops stand empty, awaiting the day when a new trend is born and overnight bloom a thousand trendy little eateries serving gourmet grilled cheese or Nothin' But Nectarines! or whatever.
Here in Ottawa we just got an oatmeal cafe, because apparently it is a sensible business model to sell porridge to rich people at CAD$8/bowl.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:09 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Here in Ottawa we just got an oatmeal cafe, because apparently it is a sensible business model to sell porridge to rich people at CAD$8/bowl.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:09 PM on April 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think Wells is missing the point… Restaurants' overreliance on ice cream desserts is a symptom. Innovation and quality are anti-incentives to the restaurant industry as a whole, and that's a systemic issue. And the other half is diners' knowledge of what desserts are possible; the more the easy/low-cost desserts are normalized, the less people will think that anything's problematic about this. The idea of walking to a dessert shop afterwards is on the one hand a great consumer 'freedom', but yet it illustrates how much consumers are ceding to this industrialized framework.
posted by polymodus at 1:33 AM on April 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by polymodus at 1:33 AM on April 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
Uhm - I think that's exactly his point.
posted by JPD at 5:21 AM on April 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by JPD at 5:21 AM on April 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
Well my reason for reading Wells' piece this way is how he concludes. Prune is a problematic example for this argument, because they have a particular restaurant philosophy/ideology (the whole "poverty cuisine" narrative), and further, the way that Wells uses Prune--his explanation essentializes their success--says he doesn't see the forest for the trees. Given his prior writings it's clear he is not a structuralist. He thinks it's for individual restaurants to power through these conditions.
I don't wanna have to unpack all this just because people disagree, yaknow. I do think it's a good habit to read these pieces more critically than they present themselves.
posted by polymodus at 2:24 PM on April 12, 2018
I don't wanna have to unpack all this just because people disagree, yaknow. I do think it's a good habit to read these pieces more critically than they present themselves.
posted by polymodus at 2:24 PM on April 12, 2018
Could be worse. Could be soft-serve.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 4:25 PM on April 12, 2018
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 4:25 PM on April 12, 2018
« Older Excuse my beauty! | The best reason Twitter should be allowed to... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by praemunire at 11:03 PM on April 10, 2018 [4 favorites]