Any Car You Want, as Long As It's a Truck
April 25, 2018 6:38 PM   Subscribe

Ford announces it will stop selling all but two models of car in favor of SUVs and trucks: As part of a cost-cutting plan, the company announced today that it plans to stop selling all Ford brand sedans in North America with the exception of the Mustang and Focus Active. Ford sees 90 percent of its North America portfolio in trucks, utilities and commercial vehicles. Citing a reduction in consumer demand and product profitability, Ford is in turn not investing in the next generation of sedans. The Taurus is no more.

Via TechCrunch: The press release also talks about a new type of vehicle, though it sounds like a crossover. This so-called white space vehicle will “combine the best attributes of cars and utilities, such as higher ride height, space and versatility.”

Currently, Ford sells six sedans and coupes in North America: the Fiesta, Focus, Fusion, C-Max, Mustang and Taurus. This lineup hits multiple segments, from the compact Fiesta to the mid-size Focus, C-Max and Fusion to the full-size Taurus. The Mustang stands alone as the lone coupe.
posted by JoeZydeco (124 comments total) 19 users marked this as a favorite
 
While this isn't the first time the Taurus nameplate has been discontinued (the current Taurus is a re-badged Five Hundred), this is still a monstrous short-sighted mistake. The only saving grace is that they have a backstop in that the coupes and sedans are still being made for the European market, so WHEN the next gas crunch comes, they could start supplying them a little quicker than otherwise.

And why are they doing this? They ONLY made an 8% profit last year.

Naturally, the stock is up in after-hours trading. Gimme some of that instant short-sighted cash!
posted by hwyengr at 6:47 PM on April 25, 2018 [13 favorites]


It's amazing to me how dependent Americans are on cars, and yet how little they seem to care about enjoyable driving.

With the Fiesta and Focus gone, is Ford just not selling any particularly affordable cars? I get this weird feeling like in ten years we'll all be driving fifteen year old cars.
posted by selfnoise at 6:48 PM on April 25, 2018 [14 favorites]


This is literally the decision making that lead to Ford's crash in 2006. They neglected the small car market (just by putting out subpar reheated garbage while the rest of the world got small cars considered some of the best in the world), and then when gas prices spiked and people fled trucks and SUV for personal transport, their sales cratered so hard and fast they had to mortgage their logo to stay in business. I was hoping that they'd be...less dumb this time around, but apparently not. The drive to shave pennies and ever higher quarterly returns was too much to resist. See you guys the next time gas hits $4.00 a gallon. Curious to see how you're going to sell electric cars when you don't sell cars anymore.
posted by Punkey at 6:49 PM on April 25, 2018 [45 favorites]


The percentage of light trucks and SUVs has been following the gas price. When gas is back at $5/gallon Americans will buy smaller cars again.
posted by shothotbot at 6:50 PM on April 25, 2018 [4 favorites]


When they say they are targeting "the best attributes of cars and utilities, such as higher ride height, space and versatility", it sure as heck sounds like a Subaru Outback.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:54 PM on April 25, 2018 [15 favorites]


Well, I would say that they've lost me as a customer but I've never even considered buying a Ford so they may be smart in not caring about my car preferences. Also, my Honda Fit may never die so I might not ever buy a new car again.
posted by octothorpe at 6:58 PM on April 25, 2018 [18 favorites]


FORD: We've got both kinds of cars: Mustang AND Focus!
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 6:59 PM on April 25, 2018 [22 favorites]


I mean most of their cars are hot garbage so I can see the logic. The mustang is actually good and the focus, at least in europe, is quite good as well.

The F150 is the world's best selling truck (maybe vehicle in general), so I guess they're trying to focus on what they do best, which isn't the worst idea in the world. There's no rule saying every car company HAS to compete in every segment.
posted by some loser at 7:02 PM on April 25, 2018 [8 favorites]


I wonder how much the lifting of fleet fuel economy standards by the EPA helped justify this decision. Or are SUVs so completely decoupled from other fleet standards that this does not matter?
posted by Hactar at 7:02 PM on April 25, 2018 [8 favorites]


That's the thing - all their cars are the Europe models now. We get the good stuff! The Taurus is the Mondeo, the Focus is the Euro Focus, the Fiesta is the Euro Fiesta! These are amazing, well-built, reliable, fun-to-drive cars! And Ford is selling them well enough, as far as I'm aware. They're not Honda or Toyota, but literally no one is. But the profit margin on trucks and SUVs is greater than on small cars because, well, you can build them more like shit and cut more corners, so out they go in the name of quarterly stock price bumps.
posted by Punkey at 7:05 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


I really wanted a Focus RS :(
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 7:08 PM on April 25, 2018 [6 favorites]


Well, I would say that they've lost me as a customer but I've never even considered buying a Ford

They've lost me too and I would have thought really fuckin' hard about a Fiesta ST or Focus ST next time around.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:10 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


car companies: "it's not a station wagon; it's a crossover"
posted by entropicamericana at 7:12 PM on April 25, 2018 [15 favorites]


I thought briefly about a Focus but maybe because I grew up in the '70, I just can't get past thinking of American cars as tinny shitboxes compared to Hondas or Toyotas.
posted by octothorpe at 7:14 PM on April 25, 2018 [4 favorites]


I really wanted a Focus RS

I'm fairly certain they are still available, and will be for a while.
posted by hippybear at 7:16 PM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]


See you guys the next time gas hits $4.00 a gallon.

I don't think gas prices will rise that much, and I bet Ford doesn't think so either. Here is why.

The average gas price in the US is $2.77 right now. Annual average price peaked at $3.80/gal in 2012. In that year, the average price of WTI oil was $94.05/barrel.

Oil prices are not expected to exceed $70/barrel in the next 12 years. In the two years 2009-2010, the oil price was also about $70, and gas was $2.80.
posted by andrewpcone at 7:17 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


Well, that's one way to get rid of the autoworkers unions.
posted by at by at 7:18 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


> That's the thing - all their cars are the Europe models now.

Even my Ford (2011 Crown Vic Police Interceptor) was made in Canada.
At least mine's already been discontinued... :D
posted by mrbill at 7:22 PM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]


Ford just handed the other automakers, particularly the Japanese, a metric shit ton of customers.
posted by azpenguin at 7:24 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


FCA is doing the exact same thing as Ford right now, btw. I wonder how much of this has to do with Ford prioritizing EV / autonomous vehicle development over traditional car offerings since the market for traditional cars is drying up rapidly and other companies do it better for the US market (Toyota/Honda) anyway. They might figure they can make a quick buck on large trucks and be better positioned for the next fuel price spike with their EV/autonomous offerings. And they probably figure that if they need to bring car offerings back in a few years they still have car development happening the Ford Europe because they still actually buy cars over there, and they might take a hit while they retool US assembly plants to build Euro designs for US sales, but they could quickly get back in the game if the winds shifted that way. This is what I would like to think, but it's Ford, they will find a way to fuck it up, this much I know.

Also, to everyone shitting on Fords because they drove a crappy Tempo back in '86, they make decent market-average vehicle these days.

As for the labor aspect of this, I don't think this will have much effect on their current production plans, all of the US plants that build cars that they are phasing out also build other vehicles that are staying, plus they are introducing the new Bronco and Ranger in 2019-2020 MY so hopefully we won't see much in the way of layoff or plant idling other than the engine plants that build 4-cyl engines but they will probably just retool.
posted by dudemanlives at 7:29 PM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]


Also, the next-generation Focus is apparently slated to be produced in China.
posted by Punkey at 7:32 PM on April 25, 2018


I should say other that the layoffs at Michigan assembly for Bronco/Ranger retooling.
posted by dudemanlives at 7:33 PM on April 25, 2018


This is not as foolish a move as it appears:

1. CUVs and SUVs, on average, get vastly superior fuel mileage today than they did 10 years ago; The Edge gets similar mileage to the Taurus, The Escape similar to the Fusion.
2. Investments in hybridization and lightweight architectures will only improve those figures
3. Consumers have voted, time again, that regardless of fuel economy, they want the perceived benefits of CUVs and SUVs
4. Ford has to place a *ton* of cash on the hood of their sedans to move the metal. CUV/SUV models require far less sales support
5. Investment in new platforms is a $1bn+ effort; Consolidating to those platforms which are most profitable and desirable make the most sense
6. Mustang's platform is scalable enough to (relatively quickly) spawn future sedan variants, should the market desires turn.
posted by tgrundke at 7:36 PM on April 25, 2018 [23 favorites]


For many years, I had been expecting General Motors to pull this; Drop everything except a "GMC Trucks" brand, Corvette, and Cadillac, but they seem to be doing reasonably well with some of the other models now, and Buick is still inexplicably seen as a luxury brand in China.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:39 PM on April 25, 2018 [3 favorites]


Good point on the Mustang platform being repurposed for sedans, GM currently does this with the Alpha platform Camaro/ATS/CTS and it does make for a great driving sedan, if not necessarily a high volume model.
posted by dudemanlives at 7:40 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


The Taurus is no more.

Robocop is sad.
posted by FJT at 7:42 PM on April 25, 2018 [8 favorites]


Can't make a small car out of it, though, and that's where the real volume sales are at. C-segment and B-segment are what most people look for.
posted by Punkey at 7:42 PM on April 25, 2018


I really wanted a Focus RS :(

The RS is no longer being manufactured after this model year anyway, and if it makes you feel any better, all the criticism that gets leveled at the STI for being a souped-up econobox goes double for the RS, and then add another multiplication factor on that for how expensive it is. Then the front seats are bolstered way past what could possibly be comfortable for someone who is more than a foot wide, the clutch feels like your foot is asleep, and the brake pedal is calibrated so that it basically feels like an on-off switch more than a continuous input. Also, less volume for hauling than the last-gen STI hatch (hopefully Subaru rectifies the mistake of eliminating that body type), and then that design...

The only benefit over something like the STI that I can see is better on-paper numbers (but this is rectified by the fact that the aftermarket landscape is likely to remain much richer for the STI given its longevity and on-going production) and the fact that you can more aggressively bias the center diff towards the rear wheels in Drift Mode with the RS. I feel like something is wrong with me that I disliked it so much in light of all the glowing reviews, but, that’s one data point.
posted by invitapriore at 7:45 PM on April 25, 2018 [4 favorites]


They might figure they can make a quick buck on large trucks and be better positioned for the next fuel price spike with their EV/autonomous offerings.

This is not as short-sighted a decision as a lot of people think. Automakers, especially from Detroit, are completely different today than they were in 2008. If ever there were an industry that woke itself up from a deep slumber, it was the auto sector in 2008-2011.

CUVs and SUVs are far closer to their sedan cousins when it comes to fuel economy, and modern powertrains are more scalable than ten years ago. In other words, today (and in the next five years), manufacturers have the margin in CUVs and SUVs to be able to rapidly adapt powertrains and "hybridize" them to gain some additional mileage margin, should fuel prices really spike.

And by *really* spike, we're going to have to see spikes well above the $4.68 peak in 2008 before we see some serious consumer moves, especially considering that SUVs and CUVs are more efficient today than they were then.
posted by tgrundke at 7:46 PM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]


I always think, "who's buying all these trucks?" and then I go shopping or to the movies in the suburbs where my little Fit is invariably parked between two behemoth monster trucks or SUVs.
posted by octothorpe at 7:47 PM on April 25, 2018 [22 favorites]


I currently drive a Hyundai Accent. Before that, I drove a Chevy Metro. Before that, I drove a Geo Metro. Before that I drove a Ford Festiva. The largest car I've owned was a Datsun B-510 hatchback. I love the small cars.

I drive Express Vans and Transits as part of my job, so I live at both end of the spectrum.
posted by hippybear at 7:48 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


Also, did you ever notice how truck commercials never show them driving through a Trader Joe's parking lot or trying to park at a mall? It's all job sites and vacant lots.
posted by hippybear at 7:49 PM on April 25, 2018 [50 favorites]


They never show Porsche 911s trying to back out of a parking space, which is equally hilarious, hippybear.
posted by Punkey at 7:50 PM on April 25, 2018 [18 favorites]


Keep in mind that ChryCo as a brand is essentially on life support with the current 300 and Pacifica really being their only "cars", with the 200 killed off a few years ago.

The 300 is running on an ancient platform which dates to 2004 with some significant upgrades over the years.

Almost all of Dodge's cars are 10+ years old, with no signs of replacement.

FCA as a company is really Jeep and RAM providing the profit to keep them afloat.

$500 bet that I could get Sergio Marchionne to admit in private that he'd happily kill off Chrysler and Dodge completely if he could, with perhaps a reprieve for Dodge's performance models.
posted by tgrundke at 7:53 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


Another key point: any automaker who by now has not adopted a highly scalable and flexible "architecture" system (in lieu of the traditional "platform" approach) is getting squeezed into a death spiral.

I suspect that FoMoCo pushed Mark Fields out because he was not moving quickly enough to focus the company's investment dollars and was trying to play it safe by spreading dollars too thin.

Volkswagen, for all its faults, is probably best positioned in the industry right now. They spent fifteen years designing and implementing what is probably the most flexible and capable "kit" in the form of MLB (longitudinal, primarily luxury) and MQB (latitudinal, primarily mainstream) architectures. The magic being that about 65% of a vehicle's cost is between the front bumper and the steering wheel, so if you standardize and modularize engines, HVAC, suspension, infotainment, transmission tunnels, exhaust routing and engine mounting - you've reached automaking nirvana. The beauty is that you don't need to redesign a car from the ground up from scratch - you can phase in "modules" over time: upgraded turbocharger? No problem, it's a common bolt on that can be swapped out easily. Move from hydraulic to electric steering? Boom, drop it in across 8+ million units instantly. Infotainment has always been a problem because it has lagged so far behind other consumer electronics, but now that it's a modular system it's a simple drop-in replacement module.

Part of the reason VW was able to weather the diesel fiasco so well is because they were able to so quickly shift diesel production and had the scale to amortize costs across 10 million units. Ironically, VW is also probably going to end up being one of the leaders in electrification because again, they've freed up capital from other areas of the business to make the investments in electric powertrains necessary. Helps when you're selling, in volume, $250,000 Bentleys, $125,000 Porsches, $95,000 A8s...and another 6 some odd million mainstream units that all have a high degree of commonality across them.

Other automakers have their own 'kits', Nissan-Renault being one that comes to mind, but nobody went as far as Volkswagen - and actually has made it work. Ford never went this far, and they're now playing catch-up as well as fretting about electrification and autonomous driving.

Long winded way of saying: this was a good move by Ford to improve profitability so they can invest in the long term technologies and processes they need to survive and stay competitive.
posted by tgrundke at 8:17 PM on April 25, 2018 [19 favorites]


such as higher ride height

Meaning more relaxed emission standards than cars. Feh.
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:18 PM on April 25, 2018 [6 favorites]


To clarify, last I heard SUVs are classed as "trucks" which don't have to meet the emissions standards that "cars" do.
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:19 PM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]


Didn't the administration do away with emissions standards anyway?
posted by hippybear at 8:22 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


Meaning more relaxed emission standards than cars. Feh.


Technically, you are correct. Trucks only need to meet a 3% per annum mileage improvement, whereas cars need to meet a 5% target.

On top of that, automakers have fleet economy figures with which they must comply. No doubt, Ford is confident they'll still be able to make those figures with the impending model changes.

Look, no amount of cajoling got consumers out of gas guzzlers and into more fuel efficient vehicles than did the gasoline spike in 2008 combined with the Great Recession. Consumers made the move on their own. The automakers aren't stupid - they know the likelihood of another spike is 100%, but this time around, most of them are far better situated to respond quickly: turbocharged 4-cyl. engine options, hybrid powertrains, etc. These advances (and consumer acceptance of them), weren't around 10 years ago.
posted by tgrundke at 8:26 PM on April 25, 2018


It's amazing to me how dependent Americans are on cars, and yet how little they seem to care about enjoyable driving.

Not this American. Cars are coffins. Ride bikes.
posted by alex_skazat at 8:30 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


Regarding the projected price of oil:

Graph

In 2004, oil was projected to stay at ~$40 a barrel for the next 12+ years.

In 2005, oil was projected to stay at ~$50 a barrel for the next 12+ years.

In 2006, oil was projected to stay at ~$60 a barrel for the next 12+ years.

In 2007, oil was projected to stay at ~$70 a barrel for the next 12+ years.

In 2009, oil cost more than $110 a barrel.

Source

I don't put much faith in a twelve year projection of $70 a barrel.
posted by GregorWill at 8:31 PM on April 25, 2018 [29 favorites]


Not this American. Cars are coffins. Ride bikes.

Increased adoption of SUVs and trucks puts us in coffins whether we're in them or not. That confidence-boosting higher ride height kills people walking or biking.
posted by asperity at 8:39 PM on April 25, 2018 [29 favorites]


Hullo handbasket, where we going?
posted by colinprince at 8:40 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


Wow, some thoughts that have been floating around...

Two big trends are converging at this point, we just don't know how fast we'll get there but we undoubtedly will, and faster than we think.

1. Transport as a service - globally we're at 60 mil vehicles sold per year. Say I drive an hour a day - my car has a 4 percent utilization rate. When we move to true autonomous ride sharing - I don't think a 30 percent utilization rate is unreasonable. That means we only need to sell 9 mil cars globally a year. Add in the ability to "share" rides with other passengers heading to the same destination and you can double utilization again, say we only need 4 mil cars per year, compared to the 60 mil we're selling now.

2. Consolidation - there's too many automakers in the market. Look at "mature" industries like computing. Then factor in a 90 percent drop in sales volume. I'd say the world only has room for 4 major automotive companies... And 2 of them will be Chinese... It's like Uber and Grab, or Uber and Didi... TaaS will become a natural monopoly.

I remember thinking maybe 5 years ago that maybe Ford's final destiny is to do a merger with Volkswagen and become their truck and muscle sub-brand... F-series, Mustang, and Ranger. Toyota and GM are already sorted on that front. Merge the driving dynamics of the Focus into the Volkswagen platform and you'll sell more Golfs.

Car industry today feels like Kodak at about the time they were developing digital cameras...
posted by xdvesper at 8:43 PM on April 25, 2018 [8 favorites]


It's a shame more people aren't trained in driving like professional drivers. When I get into the extended Chevy Express vans we drive for delivery where I work, I'm much more careful with what I'm doing because the weight and the rear wheel drive and the handing are so different from my nimble little Accent. They're entirely different vehicles, not quite as much as the rear-steering forklift and the center-rotating warehouse pickers we have, but it's a good analogy about how aware you need to be.
posted by hippybear at 8:44 PM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]


.
posted by amtho at 8:53 PM on April 25, 2018


And the Ford Focus Active will probably have one of those stupid rotating shifters that you have to look at to use.
posted by oceanjesse at 8:58 PM on April 25, 2018


hippybear, I do think that we should have more drivers license tiers generally. Like a basic license goes up to 5000lbs GVWR which should cover most full-size passenger cars. Above that you need another license class up to say 10000 GVWR. Then a CDL-lite between 10000 and 25000 when the CDL kicks in. The fact that any dumbshit 17 year old can legally drive a F-350 with at 10000 lb trailer on a basic drivers license is absurd.
posted by dudemanlives at 9:09 PM on April 25, 2018 [8 favorites]


Those are the rules in Georgia, at least. YMMV (heh, it a car thread)
posted by dudemanlives at 9:11 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


$500 bet that I could get Sergio Marchionne to admit in private that he'd happily kill off Chrysler and Dodge completely if he could, with perhaps a reprieve for Dodge's performance models.

He's basically said as much publically. He thinks that commodity vehicles such as what Dodge makes is on the way out, and that what will survive are trucks and premium brands.
posted by dudemanlives at 9:29 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


Any Car You Want, as Long As It's a Truck

Side note: excellent post title!
posted by asperity at 9:30 PM on April 25, 2018 [9 favorites]


This didn’t address the Edge, Explorer, Escape, or the Expedition, all SUVs or crossovers. I’m a Mustang girl; I’ve owned four of them including a 1967 fastback but now driving an Edge. Despite some of the comments above, they are to me, the soundest cars out there, get good gas mileage, and few problems. We are a loyal ford family. If that means another Mustang for me, that’s what I’ll do.
posted by tamitang at 9:40 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


If that means another Mustang for me, that’s what I’ll do.

The hardship you'll suffer I'm sure will be penance enough.
posted by hippybear at 9:43 PM on April 25, 2018 [8 favorites]


Wow. I bought the first American car I or anyone in my family has ever owned this year! A 3 year old C-Max Energi (dumbest name ever). I picked it because consumer reports rated it highly and it's much cheaper than the Prius plug-in hybrid. So far, I'm a fan! I keep thinking about the guys at the Ford dealership. Selling cars seems super hard and exhausting where everyone thinks you're out to scam them. The guy I worked with, when I pried, shared he never gets to see his kids since he works every weekend. These guys must be devastated.
posted by latkes at 9:47 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


I'd say the world only has room for 4 major automotive companies... And 2 of them will be Chinese

This is also basically Marchionne's main talking point and why he so aggressively chased a merger. More consolidation is probably on the way and I think Ford might also be cutting weight in the effort to chase a merger. I don't think that two would be necessarily be Chinese. There will definitely be Chinese stakeholders, but I think they will be extranational corporations a la FCA, Nissan-Renault, Volkswagen. I can see Toyota/Honda/Mazda/Subaru all getting into bed together in the future. VW can eat FCA....fuck it's to late for this kind of industry nerdery, bye.
posted by dudemanlives at 9:56 PM on April 25, 2018


"Ride height" I don't WANT a high car. I WANT to be low to the ground. I WANT to feel the speed. Focus RS (if i learned stick) or ST (if I don't) is what I want. I had planned to buy a 2013 (I figure by the time my car dies, I can afford a Focus 2013 model)... Thankfully that's still an option? I guess? Not sure about parts though - is that gonna increase the cost now?

Fucking jackasses.
posted by symbioid at 9:57 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


Car rental companies sell cars about 3 years old with around 36K miles for a good discount over new. They're well-cared-for and sold at an honest discount. I recommend checking those out. Find out who rents what brand and check them for car sales outlets.
posted by hippybear at 10:00 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


I am a long-time Ford owner. Admittedly, I have only owned Ford trucks starting with a Ranger and for the last 10 years the same F-150. It is a crew cab with an extended bed. Loves me my truck. I do have to make major concessions in parking lots. I no longer fight to park as close as possible. Done with that losing game. I find a nice place away from the crowd where I can either pull straight out or back up straight without regard to hitting someone behind me. I love sitting up high. I rented a Dodge Challenger with a Hemi engine just last weekend (cheaper than driving my truck and parking in the city). Wow. Powerful engine. Hit the gas and go. But sitting so low to the ground I thought my ass would have road rash is not for me. Probably not for most Americans. I learned to drive on a 5-speed that sat low. Loved that car, but I was 17. Almost 40 years later, I am not folding myself into a ground hugger.

Ford is making a smart business decision. Not a lot of sedan buyers these days. SUV, CUV, Trucks are the vehicles the public is buying. What is wrong with Ford deciding not to make money losing cars?
posted by AugustWest at 10:08 PM on April 25, 2018


Subaru Outbacks are the vehicles the public should be buying.
posted by hippybear at 10:10 PM on April 25, 2018 [5 favorites]


The fact that any dumbshit 17 year old can legally drive a F-350 with at 10000 lb trailer on a basic drivers license is absurd.

Rental companies hand you the keys to a 26' truck and say "here you go".
Blows my mind every time.
posted by bongo_x at 10:20 PM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]


The average gas price in the US is $2.77 right now. Annual average price peaked at $3.80/gal in 2012. In that year, the average price of WTI oil was $94.05/barrel.--andrewpcone

Wow. It's a lot more expensive out here in California. I just filled up tonight and it was $3.55 a gallon and I go to one of the cheaper places. The forecast is for over $4/gallon by next month.
posted by eye of newt at 11:10 PM on April 25, 2018


to everyone shitting on Fords because they drove a crappy Tempo back in '86, they make decent market-average vehicle these days.

Nah, I'm a Focus owner that has dealt with enough poor design decisions and quality issues that I'm going to buy my first import since the turn of the millennium. It's not good enough any more to be decent when I can get good for the same price.
posted by Candleman at 11:14 PM on April 25, 2018


It's funny (IE: I find it funny). I just traded in my wore out 1st gen Tiburon for a Ford ZX2. The ZX2 feels huge compared to the Tib but apparently was a flop in part because the market for small 2DR coupes dried up. I feel like I'm driving a bus because I'm (relatively speaking) sitting up so high and and the green house is so huge (the window frames only come up to my arm pits). The Mustang is at least a size larger.

The Miata proves you can make a small, safe car but no one seems to want to buy one.

I really don't get why people seem so driven to get these monstrous vehicles. It's becoming difficult to buy a genuinely small car because manufacturers keep discontinuing the bottom of the size market. Especially in the used market IME. The people who buy small cars seem to drive them till the wheels fall off. Maybe that is part of the problem; small car buyers aren't buying a new one every 2-3 years.

selfnoise: "With the Fiesta and Focus gone, is Ford just not selling any particularly affordable cars? I get this weird feeling like in ten years we'll all be driving fifteen year old cars."

Kia and Hyundai have got you covered; at least for now. What I'd really like to see, if massive consolidation does actually happen, is for some of the interesting small cars available in Europe to make their way to North America. Too bad Ford is going the other direction.

entropicamericana: "car companies: "it's not a station wagon; it's a crossover""

Except with worse packaging.

tgrundke: " Mustang's platform is scalable enough to (relatively quickly) spawn future sedan variants, should the market desires turn."

Families that would have bought a current Taurus are not going to buy a RWD sedan in any sort of significant numbers.
posted by Mitheral at 11:14 PM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]


Considering I found the (US 1st gen) Focus ride height a bit high for my tastes, this is certainly not going to win me back, even ignoring everything else that annoyed me about that car.

While this is probably not as dumb an idea now as it was the first time they did it, it still seems pretty dumb. Hard to expect that we're not going to get another swing back to more economical cars. Even if the crossovers can compete with cars on economy, or they can quickly ramp up foreign-market cars and certify them for the US, they still have to fight the public perception that'll be against them, which is slow to turn around especially in regards to automobile manufacturers.
posted by ckape at 11:24 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


small car buyers aren't buying a new one every 2-3 years.

Dang Millenials are obviously destroying the auto market too!
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:25 PM on April 25, 2018 [4 favorites]


My lament is more wide spread. IMO all demographics should be buying more small cars. And small cars don't have to equal cheap, first time buyer, cars either. There should be small cars across the price point spectrum.

A friend of mine (mid 40s, married, one kid in elementary school) had a mid/large size SUV. When his spouse started working they decided they need to move to being a two car family. In their situation this is a perfectly reasonable decision. Did they buy a small commuter car which would be IMO appropriate for a person driving alone 99% of the time that has a family mobile used whenever the whole family is travelling together? Nope, another mid/large size SUV. These are rational, sciency, anti woo people. They do things like research what toaster to buy for six weeks.

And living in cowboy country I know dozens of retired couples living in townhouses driving 3/4 ton 4x4 pickups with pristine beds you could eat off of. Why would anyone buy such a vehicle if you aren't going to haul anything with it.

Marketing is a powerful drug I tell you what.
posted by Mitheral at 12:05 AM on April 26, 2018 [22 favorites]


We bought a Renault Zoe as our city car. It's a tight squeeze to get all five of us in, never mind the dog, but 99% of our driving is one adult driving one our two kids to some activity or other. I deployed Excel to help us choose a car, but I never considered just how damn frictionless it is to live with an electric car. I plug it in the wall at home (home charger was included) once or twice a week, and it's just so clean and quiet and comfortable. We splurged on the "Bose Edition" trim level.

When we need to go all of us (or the weather is really bad) we have an old 4WD VW Multivan. Configurable seating etc, but diesel and quite noisy and lumbering.

Now I want a hybrid 4WD van that I can use from everything from road trips with the kids and dog to gliding around silently in town.
posted by Harald74 at 12:25 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


Did they buy a small commuter car which would be IMO appropriate for a person driving alone 99% of the time that has a family mobile used whenever the whole family is travelling together? Nope, another mid/large size SUV

I recently saw some affluent suburb (I think it was Alpharetta, Georgia, but I could just be saying that because it's my local example) described as somewhere where the men drive small cars and the women drive SUVs and minivans, because the men are just using them for commuting and the women are hauling their kids around.
posted by madcaptenor at 4:06 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


There will definitely be Chinese stakeholders, but I think they will be extranational corporations a la FCA, Nissan-Renault, Volkswagen. I can see Toyota/Honda/Mazda/Subaru all getting into bed together in the future.

The problem FCA faces is that anyone purchasing them only wants Jeep and RAM, they definitely don't want Chrysler and Dodge, and good lord, not FIAT. Alfa is a halo on its last breath. Scuttlebutt is that Volkswagen has been talking to FCA for a few years through back channels about Jeep, RAM and Alfa but has never been able to make anything work because of FIAT, Chrysler and Dodge. This is basically the same problem that has plagued Chrysler for the last 20 years - from the Daimler acquisition through Daimler's divestment and private equity fiasco.

There were some serious talks between a lot of players in 2010 that went nowhere.

Since Toyota and Subaru are already in bed, I see Mazda and Honda as another likely mash up.

Ultimately I think we're going to end up with GM, Volkswagen, Nissan-Renault as the big three and everyone else being gobbled up or playing at the fringes. The big question marks to me are Ford, Daimler and BMW. All very strong brands, but the most at risk of independence is BMW.
posted by tgrundke at 4:18 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


Not this American. Cars are coffins. Ride bikes.

Bikes are great unless, you know, it actually snows where you are. Or you have to transport your infant anywhere. Or you need to actually buy groceries for more than one person. Or a member of your family has mobility or vision issues. Or you live in a rural state that simply doesn't have the population density to support public transportation.

Maybe look at the real world and figure out solutions that include everyone, instead of taking the extremely privileged position that everyone can ride bikes.
posted by anastasiav at 5:20 AM on April 26, 2018 [25 favorites]


Bikes are great unless, you know, it actually snows where you are. Or you have to transport your infant anywhere. Or you need to actually buy groceries for more than one person.

You can ride a bike in snow, and have panniers or a trailer for shopping and/or children. These are not impossible things to solve (see the Netherlands for endless examples), although being American and living in some heavily car-adapated suburban sprawl undoubtedly makes it harder.

Physical disability is undoubtedly an issue; my mother, for example, is extremely heavily visually impared and thus had a tandem where she was the stoker. But yeah. I'm not sure the claim is that everyone can ride bikes, but there's an awful lot more bike use in some countries than others, and that's down to culture as well as infrastructure.
posted by jaduncan at 5:28 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]


The only cars I have purchased (for myself) in my adult life are 2 Focus hatchbacks and a Mustang.

So, uh, sorry everybody.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:28 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


It's amazing to me how dependent Americans are on cars, and yet how little they seem to care about enjoyable driving.

There are more than a few reasons for this:

A. Most American drivers are grossly inept at basic driving skills and safety protocols, due to poor driver's ed, extremely lax requirements for obtaining licenses, and lack of consequences for the most part. The odds of dying in a car crash is, I believe, 1 in 80 here. You're literally risking your life every time you get on the road despite the fact that most people have to.

B. Our roads and highway infrastructure is, for the most part, crumbling and poorly maintained at the federal and state level, making even basic daily driving a risk on top of most drivers' being inept.

C. Gas, car insurance, registration, and maintenance of a car, not to mention costs of parking if you're in an area where that is applicable, is typically expensive until the car depreciates in value.

D. Finding a trained, ethical mechanic that won't screw you over monetarily or break your car is almost on the same level as finding a soulmate.

Cars are a constant stress and it doesn't really matter if you have a nice car. In fact, having a nice car and watching it be abused by all of the above over time is tragic. But even so, I love driving more than most.
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:31 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]


I love Subaru Outbacks, but they're huge gas-guzzlers that are taller and bigger than a lot of SUVs and crossovers. I'm not sure they're a great model for the future of motoring.

This is not in any way true. I'm not sure what it is about Mefi threads about cars that inspires people to such hyperbole.

The Outback is a slightly lifted wagon roughly the same size as a Ford Edge. It gets better gas mileage than the Edge. I'm not even going to link to the information, it's easy to type subaru.com into your browser.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:41 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


Ford could rename the Mustang the Sonett and the Focus the 900? Just an idea.

Not about Ford, but something weird is going on with cars. We recently took the Toyota in for service at the place we bought it. The service place was normal, but the showroom was stripped - of everything, except a few new cars and people I presumed were salespeople idling about. While we were waiting, we decided to go walk around the lot. A couple aimlessly walking around through the new cars? We expected a salesman to come running out like their hair was on fire. Nope. We walked up and down the whole lot. I finally went in and tried to bait one of the staff into trying to sell us a car. He was having none of this selling us a car today nonsense. "If you want to talk to a salesman, come back when we're having an event." Just ... weird. 300 new cars on the lot and not a customer in sight.
posted by lagomorphius at 5:56 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]


Dang Millenials are obviously destroying the auto market too!

loving the millenials more every day
posted by entropicamericana at 6:00 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


Maybe look at the real world and figure out solutions that include everyone, instead of taking the extremely privileged position that everyone can ride bikes.

Don't be a jerk. A solution doesn't have to work in every single case to be a useful solution for many people. Most trips in most cars most of the time in could and should be taken by other forms of transportation that don't fuck up the planet so badly for the rest of us and don't kill more people than war and murder.

(Also, it's pretty rich for a driver to lecture cyclists on privilege when drivers are disproportionately white and wealthy compared to both the population at large and any other mode share.)

(And yes, bikes and walking have been my main form of transportation in very snowy places in the upper midwest and northeast, as well as in sprawling places with no public transit, I have carried small children by bike as do many others, and anyone who thinks it's hard to carry groceries on a bike has likely never tried it.)
posted by enn at 6:07 AM on April 26, 2018 [8 favorites]


"Ride height" I don't WANT a high car. I WANT to be low to the ground. I WANT to feel the speed. Focus RS (if i learned stick) or ST (if I don't) is what I want. I had planned to buy a 2013 (I figure by the time my car dies, I can afford a Focus 2013 model)... Thankfully that's still an option? I guess? Not sure about parts though - is that gonna increase the cost now?

I'm tall, and getting in and out of low-slung cars is hard on my knees. Taller, more upright vehicles are more pleasant for me in that way.

I believe car manufacturers are required to commit to providing parts for ten years after a car is built, and after that you might be on your own. There will probably be good deals in the next couple of years on the models that they are phasing out, if you are ready to buy at just the right time.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:13 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


You can ride a bike in snow, and have panniers or a trailer for shopping and/or children.

In the Netherlands (your example) they get about a tenth of the snow we get here in Maine, and there is snowpack on the ground over a much shorter period. Could we ride every day in the snow - to school, to work? Sure. People do it. But its completely miserable and dangerous and certainly not something that people do unless they are extremely fit and rabid advocates of your "cars are coffins" theology, or have absolutely no other option.

Don't be a jerk.

Actually, enn, I view the 'just ride a bike, everyone should do it' people as the jerks. I've also carried groceries on a bike, and a couple of small children. Its fine if the weather is good and everyone cooperates. But if its winter when its dark when I get to work and dark when I leave and I have to pick up kids from daycare before 515 or pay extra and then stop at the store, and now I'm suddenly trying to haul sixty pounds of kids plus twenty pounds of groceries on a bike in the dark and its cold, and oh by the way I'm required to wear fancy girl clothes for work so I have to change my clothes when I get to work and when I get home and so I'm also hauling a whole other outfit with me..... Sorry, no. That's no way to live.

People use cars because cars are easier, faster, and provide universal access. Your time would be better spent advocating for better cars, or more access to public transportation, or public funding to convert low-income families from oil for home heating or a bunch of other things, because bikes are not a reasonable alternative for most families.
posted by anastasiav at 6:24 AM on April 26, 2018 [18 favorites]


citation needed
posted by entropicamericana at 6:27 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


The Outback is a slightly lifted wagon roughly the same size as a Ford Edge

My 2008 Outback is pretty much the same size and wheelbase as my 1999 Passat Wagon, which it replaced. For exactly that reason.

I do believe the newest ones are at Forester height, which still isn't all that high. Might be part of simplifying modular designs.
posted by mikelieman at 6:28 AM on April 26, 2018


The people who are financially intelligent buy small Japanese cars that are cheap to run and last forever. The people who are financial idiots buy big brand-new American SUVs and trucks. And, because they are financial idiots, they massively overpay for those SUVs and trucks, which is very profitable for the manufacturers. There's just no reason for Ford to compete in the small car business at all.
posted by miyabo at 6:42 AM on April 26, 2018


In the Netherlands (your example) they get about a tenth of the snow we get here in Maine, and there is snowpack on the ground over a much shorter period. Could we ride every day in the snow - to school, to work? Sure. People do it. But its completely miserable and dangerous and certainly not something that people do unless they are extremely fit and rabid advocates of your "cars are coffins" theology, or have absolutely no other option.You can ride a bike in snow, and have panniers or a trailer for shopping and/or children.

I didn't say cars are coffins, you have me confused with another commenter.

That aside, I suggested that they are an option for more people than you are implying. But sure, Netherlands is an example with less snow. The rate of cycling is also a lot higher in Canada (specifically Toronto has impressive stats), and I'm just suggesting that more people could cycle in the US than do at the moment. I'm a cyclist, so maybe I'm biased, but it certainly seems a good option for local trips and can be combined with car rental for longer trips. I also think that this is a model that will become a lot more prevalent when self-driving cars form Uber/Lyft 2.0, but we'll see.
posted by jaduncan at 6:44 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


"FCA as a company is really Jeep and RAM providing the profit to keep them afloat."

I'm pretty surprised that Chrysler didn't do this first, to be honest.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:49 AM on April 26, 2018


My wife has a 2017 Outback and it is a good bit taller than they used to be. We get about 25 MPG in Atlanta city driving, and gets up into the 30s on long highway stretches. The AWD is what prevents it from getting better mileage as much as the vehicle height. They are good, sturdy vehicles with understressed powertrain components that should last a long time, but I do wish that they offered a 2WD optional mode. 90% of the time I'm driving, I don't need to be driving all 4 wheels. A rear-facing jump seat like the E-Class wagon would be nice as well, but other than that I think they are the ultimate do-all swiss army knife car. Decent economy, plenty of cargo space, limo-like rear seat space, can actually do offroad better than a 1/2 ton 4x4 pickup, and can tow 2500lb easily with the base 4-banger engine.
posted by dudemanlives at 6:50 AM on April 26, 2018


The 2018 Toyota Camry has been obliterating the rapidly-constricting mid-sized car segment in America since its launch last year, even against the also-newly-redesigned-and-better-reviewed Honda Accord. This has not helped Ford or anyone else, really. Expect more mid-size discontinuations across most manufacturers. Eventually there may only be Camry, Accord, and Nissan Altima left standing in this segment.
posted by glonous keming at 7:00 AM on April 26, 2018


It's a common misconception that all people riding bicycles must be able and fit, but there are a lot of people for whom bicycles serve as mobility devices. Occasionally with an accompanying disabled parking decal.

Bicycling doesn't become a more practical transportation option because people are all able-bodied, or because snow is minimal, or because they have no responsibilities that require carrying anything but themselves. Bicycling is made easier with infrastructure built to support it, governments that maintain that infrastructure in all weather, and bicycles that are designed to be used for normal transportation. Oh, and licensing regimes that discourage people from driving enormous, poorly-designed SUVs and trucks everywhere without any of the training that should go along with driving such dangerous vehicles.

I care about the increasing number of these behemoths on my streets because their drivers are more likely to kill me with them.
posted by asperity at 7:00 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]


I have been in a Ford C-Max Energi for the last 5 years and I love it. I have always gotten approximately 100 mpg or more. I am really sorry it won't be in their next line-up. I guess I'll have to go somewhere else for my hatchback plug in needs next time.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:03 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


2017 Outback ... can actually do offroad better than a 1/2 ton 4x4 pickup

In making that comparison, have you factored in our common tendency to believe that the car we're currently driving is the best one in the world? I mean, I assume you have that, since I sure do: The 2003 Dodge Neon is clearly the perfect car. Just for one advantage it has over both the Outback and the Fit which get such disproportionate praise around here, it comes with a normal car ride height, you don't have to sit so high up.
posted by sfenders at 7:12 AM on April 26, 2018


jaduncan: "
You can ride a bike in snow, and have panniers or a trailer for shopping and/or children. These are not impossible things to solve (see the Netherlands for endless examples)
"

My City has San Francisco like hills combined with Midwest winters and Phoenix summers. These things are much harder some places than others.

miyabo: "And, because they are financial idiots, they massively overpay for those SUVs and trucks, which is very profitable for the manufacturers. There's just no reason for Ford to compete in the small car business at all."

Well new car buyers tend to be very brand loyal. A major manufacturer not having at least an attempt at servicing most segments pushes buyers to other brands who may never come back to Ford.
posted by Mitheral at 7:20 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


My City has San Francisco like hills combined with Midwest winters and Phoenix summers. These things are much harder some places than others.

They are. Hence why I merely suggest it's an option for more people than implied by the statement that saying more Americans than currently cycle could choose to do so is a very privileged stance. Incidentally, one of the interesting things about the Netherlands is that roughly half the bikes sold are e-bikes with battery assist.

Having cycled in the Netherlands myself, the local phrase is that the wind is their hills...and when it blows off the North Sea, that's very much true.
posted by jaduncan at 7:23 AM on April 26, 2018


I also have had a C-MAX Energi for the last five years. Over, I have liked it. The two problems with it both relate to placement of the battery, which is in the cargo space in the back. That reduces the available cargo space, and changes the weight distribution so that the vehicle loses much the traction advantage of front wheel drive. I had to buy snow tires for the first time.

Also, its plug-in range (17-25 miles, depending on temperature) is not quite enough for my driving, which includes a 45 mile trip two or four times per week. If the range was closer to 40 miles, I would almost never buy gasoline.

We have 2004 Impreza Outback, which we will like replace in the next year or so with another Subaru product. I will likely acquire a Volt or other plug-in with similar range. Unfortunately, no Ford products fit my needs.
posted by haiku warrior at 7:37 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


Well new car buyers tend to be very brand loyal. A major manufacturer not having at least an attempt at servicing most segments pushes buyers to other brands who may never come back to Ford.

True, but: Ford used to sell the Ranger compact pickup in the USA, and started leaning more heavily into smaller cars (like the Fiesta) when their market research revealed people were often buying the Ranger because it was the cheapest new "car" they sold (I was one of those buyers, but it was also a great little truck.) Presumably similar market research has told them their small/medium car buyers would prefer small/medium CUVs for a similar price. That, or dealers are telling them so.

Having said that: what keeps me away from Ford is their cheap interior materials and lack of interior room for the size.
posted by davejay at 7:39 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


Is it weird that a utilitarian small car excites me more than something like a Mustang? A world of sports cars and luxury sedans is boring to me, people will pay a higher cost for those cars so the manufacturer can go all out in their design and construction, but with those small budget models you've really got to flex your engineering ingenuity to hit cost targets while still having sufficient power, handling, safety, etc, and to me it's more exciting to see what talented people can do under heavy constraints. That's what drew me to the Honda Fit, and to Saturns before it. The older Outbacks and Rangers have that feel too, and the stripped down basic Jeep Wrangler (and omg that Mahindra Roxor side by side tiny Jeep Willys is so my thing). They're utilitarian like a coffee mug or a safety razor, there's just something about that that speaks to me more than next level power or luxury. Maybe it comes from cars only ever being a utilitarian necessity in my life that always had to fit within slim personal financial constraints, but like if I suddenly came into money, a car that does more than it needs to is not even on my list. I don't really understand the consumer preferences that pushed Ford this direction.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:28 AM on April 26, 2018 [8 favorites]


Another stupid "North American market" decision. While SUV and truck purchases are increasing in Canada, we still buy a lot of cars and a lot of them are hatchbacks. Gas is much more expensive here -- right now it is running at around CAN$1.35-$1.40 per litre of regular gas (US$4.25ish per gallon) with no end in sight. Don't even talk to me about the price of high-test.

We live in the city and have a fairly new Honda Odyssey and a beat-up 15-year old VW Golf TDI with a manual transmission. The minivan uses 4x more fuel than the car, is horrible to drive in the city because it is so damn big, and is no fun to drive. Both my wife and I prefer driving the car. It fits our family of 4 fine and is sufficient for 95% of all of our driving needs. The van just sits in the driveway collecting dust a lot of the time as it is hard to justify filling up an 80 litre tank of gas that only lasts 500-600 km when I can put 50 L in the car and drive 700-1000 km. When the Golf dies, we're getting another manual hatchback.

I don't get the love of big stupid SUVs and trucks. I drove trucks a lot growing up and always hated them. And as much as I hate our stupid minivan, it is far more useful and practical than SUVs and trucks.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:21 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


Despite appreciating a good truck from time to time, and even having owned and enjoyed a RAV4 for a while, I'm..annoyed Ford has chosen this approach, and not just because I had hoped the Focus RS ended up having a couple more model years so that I could justify buying one more gas car before abandoning them for the rest of my life.

I decided a few years ago I'm not going to bother buying any more gas cars unless it's something blatantly frivolous. Otherwise, I may as well buy something like a Bolt or even a Model S. Not that I can afford any car or even want to own one that I have to drive in shitty city traffic. In any case, an SUV or truck of any sort is wildly inappropriate and in fact is dangerous relative to a smaller, more nimble car. I'd have had a much worse time with that bus in a lumbering SUV three feet wider than the Golf I was driving at the time. Instead of just losing the wing mirror, Georgia and a few feet of car would have been crushed in the best case.

Small size and good maneuverability make driving amongst people who have zero concept of there being traffic laws possible without risking your life as much. Smaller cars stop faster, turn faster, often go faster, and otherwise help you avoid crashing, which to me sounds a hell of a lot better than being safer (to the occupants) in a crash while transferring risk to pedestrians, cyclists, and people who drive cars. I don't need anybody's death but my own on my conscience, thanks.
posted by wierdo at 9:22 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]


Pouring one out for my family's 1995 Taurus hatchback. That beast made it through 15 Minnesota winters and several embarrassing high school/college jobs.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:33 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


The people who are financially intelligent buy small Japanese cars that are cheap to run and last forever. The people who are financial idiots buy big brand-new American SUVs and trucks. And, because they are financial idiots, they massively overpay for those SUVs and trucks, which is very profitable for the manufacturers.

Tip of the day: the message would be far more effectively received without the unnecessary snark. During the 2009-2010 industry collapse the pricing structure was completely reversed. Volkswagen diesels, Honda Civics, and Ford Focuses were flying off of shelves at above sticker. People were trading in SUVs, at a loss and paying full price for a smaller, sometimes only marginally more efficient, smaller vehicle. All in response to the media-induced panic that $7.00/gallon gasoline was here forever.
posted by tgrundke at 10:13 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


Ugh, the bike debate: it's so important that we direct our righteous bike energy into demanding bike lanes from our local electeds, donate to our local bike advocacy orgs, and vote for local infrastructure taxes that pay for safe street redesign. How people get around is primarily based on structural factors beyond individual control. Personally I bike to work some days, but I work in a hospital, the reality is our streets are dangerous, and it's impossible on days when I also have to pick up my daughter or get home at a certain time or whatnot. People make transportation choices for a reason. We need to make biking (and public transit) safe and easy and make driving expensive and slow if we want people to choose not to drive.

Interestingly, Ford is getting into the bike share market. In Oakland we have Ford Go Bikes.
posted by latkes at 10:21 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]


>Gas is much more expensive here -- right now it is running at around CAN$1.35-$1.40 per litre of regular gas (US$4.25ish per gallon)

One of the reasons for this (and for the USA love for SUVs, pickup trucks, and car-dependent suburbs) is the absurdly low gasoline tax in the USA. The average inclusive USA tax on gasoline is only $0.53 a gallon while Canada's is $1.25 a gallon, which accounts for about $0.75/gallon of the difference in price. The federal gasoline tax in the USA hasn't changed from ~18 cents a gallon since 1992. Back then, Ross Perot was advocating to raise the gas tax 50 cents a gallon over the course of five years, but over twenty five years ago it still hasn't changed. User fees such as gas taxes, tolls and registration fees for automobiles don't cover fifty percent of actual spending on the roads in the USA, to say nothing of external costs such as excess traffic, sprawl, resource depletion, air and noise pollution, lack of physical fitness, among many others that are born by the public and not even acknowledged as due to our decisions to lightly tax and over rely on automobiles. And yet most people in the USA still think automobiles are over taxed!
posted by GregorWill at 10:33 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]


Given the gawdawful condition of the roads and interstates in my neck of the woods, a big SUV might be the only form of transport that can actually survive them.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:51 AM on April 26, 2018


Even while following the Mid-Size Sedan Death Watch, I'm still surprised by the Ford Crossover Company
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:02 AM on April 26, 2018


jason_steakums: "Is it weird that a utilitarian small car excites me more than something like a Mustang?"

Nope. If nothing else it's a lot more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
posted by Mitheral at 12:22 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]


Gas is much more expensive here -- right now it is running at around CAN$1.35-$1.40 per litre of regular gas (US$4.25ish per gallon) with no end in sight.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:21 AM on April 26 [1 favorite +] [!]

We hit $1.60/L in Metro Vancouver last week. We've been over $1.50/L for days.

I bought a Dodge Caravan because I have big dogs who I want to be safely crated in the vehicle. It guzzles gas like nobody's business. I had planned to sell my Mazda 3 hatchback and just drive the Caravan all the time. It's now making more financial sense for me to keep both vehicles and use the Mazda to commute to work (~1 hr each way). Although if I'm being honest, I'm not heartbroken about this. I love driving the Mazda and I hate driving the Dodge.
posted by twilightlost at 12:34 PM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


Ugh, the bike debate: it's so important that we direct our righteous bike energy into demanding bike lanes from our local electeds, donate to our local bike advocacy orgs, and vote for local infrastructure taxes that pay for safe street redesign. How people get around is primarily based on structural factors beyond individual control.

Yes, thank you. Higher urban density is also important. Lower density means longer commute distances, and a bias toward higher-speed arterial roads. This is poison for bikes.

Pro-bike advocacy should be directed at the government, especially on the local level. It is one of those precious few subjects where showing up to meetings and writing your reps can have a clear impact. I can't imagine much good can come from telling other people how to get around, especially if it is motivated by an ethical/societal argument. It is divisive and disrespectful of the pressures that make people drive (family status, housing affordability, disability, etc).

I bike almost everywhere, but I see that as a privilege, not a feather in my cap. I am the beneficiary of decades of advocacy and urban planning that allows me to bike around. In personal interactions, the best thing bikers can do may be to get off their high horses.
posted by andrewpcone at 1:07 PM on April 26, 2018 [8 favorites]


I wonder if any American car company would sell smaller cars if there wasn't some kind of requirement for a fleet average fuel economy. Right now you can sell more high-profit, gas guzzling trucks if you sell more high-mileage small cars.

But the present EPA plans on reducing or removing these requirements (and certainly doesn't plan on enforcing them) and is suing California to try to stop their higher environmental laws (which have been very successful in cleaning up what used to be unlivable smog).

Also, the car culture is changing. Kids are not in a rush to drive, and sedan sales are dropping. (I have a couple of kids now old enough to get a license, and neither has made any request or effort toward getting one. I can't even imagine that happening when I was in high school).

Also, Ford is planning on having a number of electric and hybrid vehicles in 2019-2020, so they may be able to meet the mileage requirements anyway.

So maybe it makes sense. Except, the EPA may (crosses fingers) go back to actually protecting the environment in a few years, and, as I've mentioned above, gas prices are already high in California and are projected to go higher. This could also come back to bite them.
posted by eye of newt at 1:09 PM on April 26, 2018


Ugh, the bike debate

I've got to admit, it's tempting to imagine that there's some kind of tenuous connection between Ford getting out of the non-SUV passenger car market and the tendency for people to come along, every time cars are mentioned, to tell us that cars are terrible, nobody should use them, and we should all get around by [pick one of: motorcycles, bicycles, walking, electric mobility pods] instead.
posted by sfenders at 4:51 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


okay, first: cars *are* terrible and nobody should use them

that said, nobody is going to take your canyonero from you, but we would like (1) you to pay your fair share (including all those nasty externalities) and (2) infrastructure that makes it possible for people who would rather walk or bike to their destination to do so safely and comfortably

radical concepts, i know
posted by entropicamericana at 5:40 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


I have a couple of kids now old enough to get a license, and neither has made any request or effort toward getting one.

As someone in their 30's who is STILL learning to drive and seriously struggling with it, please make them do it while their ability to learn this kind of skill is still pretty nimble and healthy. Learning as an adult is a lot harder than it would have been with the reflexes, mental plasticity, and fearlessness of a teen or young adult.(Also, my insurance costs would be SO MUCH less horrible now if I had more years of experience under my belt).


okay, first: cars *are* terrible and nobody should use them

Dude... No. I'm 31, grew up without a car, have never owned a car, and I can't wait to get a car because I don't live in a tiny village and own a horse and buggy and I need to get places and do things and after 31 years I have had more than enough of the problems associated with walking, biking and public transit. Walking sucks, ask my joints and arches. Biking sucks, ask my joints and hills and Weather and long commute and sweat glands. Public transit sucks and my list of reasons why it sucks is so fucking long that my fingers will seize up if I try to type it, I despise public transit with a firey passion that is only eclipsed by how much I am dependant on it.

People invented cars for a reason and the reason is that the alternatives suck when they are used exclusively by neccessity rather than choice, the idea that biking and transit and walking are so much better and we all have to like it and otherwise we are defective (like the notion that when we all have to live crammed sardine style into miniscule high-density urban dwellings our lives will somehow become utopic) is all so very "chocolate rations have been increased" and annoys the heck out of me.

Yeah cars create problems and we need to do it better but they are tools, they are useful, they don't "suck".
posted by windykites at 7:09 PM on April 26, 2018 [8 favorites]


The car/truck thing has something to do with city density and size, too -- length of commute and access to rural roads being a big thing.

I'm a city girl, but am in Saskatoon now, after being born and raised in Vancouver and living in Toronto for most of my adult life. I didn't need or want to drive for most of my life. I lasted 5 years in Saskatoon without a car (mostly because the hatefully stupid graduated licensing program made it almost impossible for me to renew my license) and when I finally cracked and got one, discovered that it made life here tenable and even enjoyable. I love my Mazda 3 hatchback which is fast, fun to drive, incredibly light on gas and capable of holding an astounding amount of stuff. But the vast majority of people here drive trucks by choice: they're powerful and safer on slippery snowy roads, you can haul stuff, and for a certain sector of 20s-ish guy they're a mark of rural authenticity and hot studly manhood. They also cost 300 bucks to fill and 65K to buy, but this is apparently Worth It.

They also make it incredibly difficult to change lanes (massive blind spots), turn left (because you can't see past them) park or use drive-thrus, and they ensure that I will NEVER EVER bike here, because I like breathing. Trucks are pointless in the city; I'm convinced that most of the people who drive them, male and female, are assholes.
posted by jrochest at 1:30 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]


Yes, what you typed is 100% consistent with what I wrote. The Subaru Outback is, as you say, roughly the same size as a Ford Edge, and they are both gas-guzzlers that are taller and bigger than a lot of SUVs. Per Fuelly, the current Outback gets slightly worse gas mileage than I got in my 2015 WRX, and it does that while nevertheless being totally anemic on power. Again, I love the Outback, and nearly bought one recently (I got a hybrid instead because gas mileage).

Oh. Oh, I see. Ok.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:55 AM on April 27, 2018


They recently replaced most of the police cars where I live with Tauruses, which were just axed. They used to be Crown Vics, which were axed. The remainder are some SUV I haven't identified yet (They all look the same to me). I wonder if that's the new direction cop cars are taking.

I thought Ford kept Crown Vic production going years after nobody wanted them because of the police car market.
posted by lordrunningclam at 8:09 AM on April 27, 2018


The remainder are some SUV I haven't identified yet (They all look the same to me). I wonder if that's the new direction cop cars are taking.
Yes. My city actually has very few cop 'cars' they are all SUVs.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:12 AM on April 27, 2018


Possibly related to the whole move away from little cars, the rent-by-the-minute car services here in seattle recently stopped having 2 seater smart cars and it's terrible. 100% the worst part about driving (for me) is finding parking and oh my god you can park a smart car literally anywhere. Just squeeze it on in there! Amazing!
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:18 AM on April 27, 2018


After getting used to smart fourtwos, mini coopers feel like a misnomer, honestly
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:20 AM on April 27, 2018


It really is a misnomer; the new Mini Coopers from BMW are substantially larger than the original Minis (in no small part due to modern auto safety regulations).
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:14 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]


I suspect regulations are why nobody sells small trucks anymore. I have zero interest in the behemoth monsters available now, but the smaller trucks they don’t make anymore have a very competitive used market.

I suspect nobody wants to update one for modern safety standards but it feels like leaving money on the table.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:43 AM on April 27, 2018


I believe they are going to make the Ranger again.

As far as trucks go, I too get judgey and feel like most people just get them for show, which seems ridiculous. But then again, although I've driven a small car for years we always keep an old truck around to move things. Which is ridiculous because you have to keep it running and insured, etc. There are a million reasons you might need a truck on a semi regular basis.
posted by bongo_x at 12:04 PM on April 27, 2018


I smiled a lot when I saw this clip of Chris Eubanks in his vehicle of choice - lots of height, completely impractical, annoying for everyone else. Perhaps Ford could start marketing these to the public at large?

And of course, for those truckers & suv owners that don't often venture off the asphalt there are these fabulous instructional videos from the UK - Lets Off-road!
posted by phigmov at 12:37 PM on April 27, 2018


fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit: "I suspect regulations are why nobody sells small trucks anymore."

Not really. Ford discontinued the Ranger because it wasn't selling well because you could buy an F150 that got similar mileage for not much more money.

Besides the New Ranger is only small in relative terms. The crew cab is actually longer than then the single cab 150. And the USA doesn't get either of the desiels, a single cab or manual transmission.

GM is the player I'm pissed at when it comes to truly small trucks. They make the Montana which they should totally bring to North America.

Really any of the big players could take any of their small sedans and crank out new stampings from the B-Pillar back. It would be super cheap as far as development gos and would probably sell like hotcakes for at least a few years to high school students and lawn car companies.

That would make for a perfectly adequate small truck. Only problem is they wouldn't make the big bucks a current full size makes.
posted by Mitheral at 1:19 PM on April 27, 2018


The idea that trucks and SUVs are better or safer in inclement weather is utterly ridiculous unless you live somewhere where it is common to get a foot of snow or more at once and for some reason the roads never get plowed. Even then, in most cases you only get a few extra inches of ground clearance at best, so your vehicle becomes a snow plow slightly later than it would otherwise.

More than once in my life I've been the only person driving around in a snowstorm, mostly in a Honda Accord. Never once did I get that or the Mercury Topaz I had before it stuck. The Honda also did just fine on forest service "roads" that would be better described as cow paths.

Nobody actually needs to drive vehicles that put everyone else in greater danger and dramatically increase the rate at which roads wear out except a few folks who have to use them for work, but it's pretty clear that the vast majority of drivers are self centered assholes who refuse to take responsibility for their choices, instead saying they were somehow "forced" to drive a monster truck when in reality it's more about psychological comfort of one sort or another.

"Think of the children" is a common refrain. Never mind that reducing the amount of time the kids are in a car reduces their risk of death or injury far more than ensconcing them in an oversized vehicle. The other one I hear a lot is "I have to move large things a few times a year," to which I say "have you ever heard of the concept of renting a vehicle?"

I don't really care what people who live out in the sticks choose to drive. There are fewer people being put at risk and a low enough population density that even every single one of them using twice as much fuel as need be makes essentially no difference to the nation's total fuel consumption. Once you get into areas with multiple people per acre, however, it does matter.
posted by wierdo at 1:27 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]


it's pretty clear that the vast majority of drivers are self centered assholes who refuse to take responsibility for their choices, instead saying they were somehow "forced" to drive a monster truck when in reality it's more about psychological comfort of one sort or another.

And if your intent is to somehow convince the millions of SUV owning Americans that you're right and they're wrong, might I suggest you will have much greater success if you drop the smug arrogance that will ensure your words never reach the intended audience.
posted by tgrundke at 2:29 PM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]


yes obviously the problem with america is that we haven't been worrying enough about the feelings of the coal miners SUV drivers
posted by entropicamericana at 8:23 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


You mistake exasperation at being treated as nonexistent by drivers on a daily basis and the asymmetric increase in risk of injury I'm being forced to bear the brunt of with smug condescension. I'll be smug when drivers who fail to yield at intersections start getting ticketed or even better when those who kill pedestrians in the process have some consequences applied beyond the hassle of repairing their car.

I felt a hell of a lot safer riding a bicycle in traffic, but I was one of those assholes who took the whole lane when necessary rather than letting people think they could squeeze past.
posted by wierdo at 8:22 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


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