"Being a delivery worker is the lowest rung of work in society"
April 26, 2018 8:09 AM Subscribe
NYC's War On E-Bikes Takes Toll On Immigrant Delivery Workers
"I would never use a regular bike, there's no way to ride a regular bike," Zhu Xian, 31, said in Mandarin, adding that he does his best to obey traffic laws. Zhu is one of four delivery cyclists who ferry between 100 to 150 orders to customers every day out of a Chinese restaurant on 14th Street.
"I would never use a regular bike, there's no way to ride a regular bike," Zhu Xian, 31, said in Mandarin, adding that he does his best to obey traffic laws. Zhu is one of four delivery cyclists who ferry between 100 to 150 orders to customers every day out of a Chinese restaurant on 14th Street.
But according to Lee and the e-bike delivery cyclists interviewed for this story, they are all essentially independent contractors: they own their e-bikes and pay their own fines.
They may be treated as independent contractors, but they almost certainly are not. This seems to reflect the reality reported later in the story that labor laws tend to be almost completely a fiction with immigrant workers which seems to be the real problem, rather than the particular issues around e-bikes.
That said, better regulations around e-bikes in the city, which would allow them to be used while still allowing enforcement against those who ride them going the wrong way on one-way streets or on sidewalks, does seem way overdue.
posted by layceepee at 8:21 AM on April 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
They may be treated as independent contractors, but they almost certainly are not. This seems to reflect the reality reported later in the story that labor laws tend to be almost completely a fiction with immigrant workers which seems to be the real problem, rather than the particular issues around e-bikes.
That said, better regulations around e-bikes in the city, which would allow them to be used while still allowing enforcement against those who ride them going the wrong way on one-way streets or on sidewalks, does seem way overdue.
posted by layceepee at 8:21 AM on April 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
The law says they can't use motorized bikes that go above 20 mph. The delivery drivers (not riders, they're basically motorcycles) should be using less powerful vehicles, or be using vehicles regulated like vehicles.
The DMV page has a list of vehicles that can't be licensed, and honestly it seems pretty fair.
This is a story of delivery services squeezing immigrants into breaking the law to turn a profit, and then shrugging and trying to cast the law as anti-immigrant. The laws are good, the circumstances are bad, and these delivery services should be regulated more tightly.
posted by explosion at 8:22 AM on April 26, 2018 [20 favorites]
The DMV page has a list of vehicles that can't be licensed, and honestly it seems pretty fair.
This is a story of delivery services squeezing immigrants into breaking the law to turn a profit, and then shrugging and trying to cast the law as anti-immigrant. The laws are good, the circumstances are bad, and these delivery services should be regulated more tightly.
posted by explosion at 8:22 AM on April 26, 2018 [20 favorites]
ban private autos in the city and you'll suddenly have a lot of room for ebikes
posted by entropicamericana at 8:26 AM on April 26, 2018 [34 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:26 AM on April 26, 2018 [34 favorites]
Yeah, the federal law is that bikes that assist you over 20 mph are motor vehicles, not bikes. 20 mph is a very fast assist.
(Take an average city bike. Assume some things about weight, tire choice, and rider position. 20 mph on a flat requires maybe 250 W from the rider. An average untrained rider can sustain that for maybe a minute and they're going to be huffing and sweating. 20 mph on a city bike is fast.)
Unfortunately people get sold these cheap ebikes that don't speed-limit and then get screwed because the bike shop didn't tell them they were buying a vehicle and not a bike. :(
posted by introp at 8:31 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
(Take an average city bike. Assume some things about weight, tire choice, and rider position. 20 mph on a flat requires maybe 250 W from the rider. An average untrained rider can sustain that for maybe a minute and they're going to be huffing and sweating. 20 mph on a city bike is fast.)
Unfortunately people get sold these cheap ebikes that don't speed-limit and then get screwed because the bike shop didn't tell them they were buying a vehicle and not a bike. :(
posted by introp at 8:31 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
honestly it seems pretty fair
Why? Why does it seem fair? You allow motorcycles which can go a hell of a lot faster, but not ebikes? If the problem is sidewalks, ticket people driving on sidewalks, which is already illegal.
posted by corb at 8:36 AM on April 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Why? Why does it seem fair? You allow motorcycles which can go a hell of a lot faster, but not ebikes? If the problem is sidewalks, ticket people driving on sidewalks, which is already illegal.
posted by corb at 8:36 AM on April 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Bikes don't belong on sidewalks. If it is self propelled and requires no pedaling or user involvement to maintain control and focus it is a motorbike/motorcycle not a bike. Just because a vehicle can't go over 20mph, doesn't mean that it is safe.
On a sidewalk, find me a person going 20mph on foot and I'll point to the fact that Usian Bolt topped out at 27.8mph burst with his race really at 23.5mph... while pedestrians generally walk at 3.1mph and up to 5.8mph (uncomfortably brisk pace). That means an ebike is more like Usian Bolt running down the street than the rest of the people around you.
For additional context, The Running of the Bulls is a lovely 15mph romp down crowded streets where you are headed in the same direction as the impending danger... now, pretend the bulls aren't all together, but instead are singletons, somewhat rare, but could be coming at you from any direction. Honestly, if you wanted to protest the safety of riding on sidewalks... releasing a few random Bulls in NYC would be an interesting way to do this. THAT IS NOT ADVICE.
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:40 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
On a sidewalk, find me a person going 20mph on foot and I'll point to the fact that Usian Bolt topped out at 27.8mph burst with his race really at 23.5mph... while pedestrians generally walk at 3.1mph and up to 5.8mph (uncomfortably brisk pace). That means an ebike is more like Usian Bolt running down the street than the rest of the people around you.
For additional context, The Running of the Bulls is a lovely 15mph romp down crowded streets where you are headed in the same direction as the impending danger... now, pretend the bulls aren't all together, but instead are singletons, somewhat rare, but could be coming at you from any direction. Honestly, if you wanted to protest the safety of riding on sidewalks... releasing a few random Bulls in NYC would be an interesting way to do this. THAT IS NOT ADVICE.
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:40 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yeah, this is straight up "war on cars!!!!" bullshit with the added mix of racism and classism. The absolute worst. There are few vehicles more efficient and less demanding of resources than an ebike, except perhaps a bike operated by human power alone. I'd be super happy if most single-occupant commuting were done by ebike in the suburban hell that is North America, rather than by car. You'd get there just as fast.
That said, ebikes should not be on multi-use trailways, and not on sidewalks. They shouldn't even be in bike lanes. They're too fast, and too heavy what with most of them weighing 50lbs or 100lbs or even more, and the kinetic energy they have is just not compatible with regular cyclists and pedestrians.
So in my little fantasy world they would be treated as motor vehicles and forced to stay on the streets, but the license should be cheap, and the registration should be cheap. But if you fuck up with it and hurt someone, you lose your licence. (If only people with cars would lose their licenses for hurting someone...)
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:44 AM on April 26, 2018 [22 favorites]
That said, ebikes should not be on multi-use trailways, and not on sidewalks. They shouldn't even be in bike lanes. They're too fast, and too heavy what with most of them weighing 50lbs or 100lbs or even more, and the kinetic energy they have is just not compatible with regular cyclists and pedestrians.
So in my little fantasy world they would be treated as motor vehicles and forced to stay on the streets, but the license should be cheap, and the registration should be cheap. But if you fuck up with it and hurt someone, you lose your licence. (If only people with cars would lose their licenses for hurting someone...)
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:44 AM on April 26, 2018 [22 favorites]
the mayor portrayed e-bike riders as a menace to public safety
Translation: "drivers get frustrated seeing people move while they're stuck in traffic, so they direct their rage at the vulnerable."
But these e-bikes really are a problem. In my affluent part of the world, they're mostly not used by delivery drivers, but by wealthy people who don't want to break a sweat on the multi-use path. But nowadays they can go >50km/h without effort, which is clearly insane when you're riding on a glorified sidewalk with kids, dogs, old people and other cyclists. People are using them mainly as a way to beat the system.
In my province, any vehicle with a motor capable of generating 400W is a motor vehicle and has to be registered, insured, properly equipped (i.e. with lights), and the driver has to be licensed. (And you can't ride it on the sidewalk, duh.) E-bikes now routinely come with 800W motors, so pretty much everyone who rides one is breaking the law. And why isn't anyone talking about the manufacturers' responsibilities? A lot of them are mainstream bike companies.
The wage situation of those immigrant workers is really a separate and more important problem though. Completely apart from the e-bike issue, they need to not be treated like slaves but I guess it's good to have a GRARCYCLISTS headline to distract us from that.
posted by klanawa at 8:52 AM on April 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
Translation: "drivers get frustrated seeing people move while they're stuck in traffic, so they direct their rage at the vulnerable."
But these e-bikes really are a problem. In my affluent part of the world, they're mostly not used by delivery drivers, but by wealthy people who don't want to break a sweat on the multi-use path. But nowadays they can go >50km/h without effort, which is clearly insane when you're riding on a glorified sidewalk with kids, dogs, old people and other cyclists. People are using them mainly as a way to beat the system.
In my province, any vehicle with a motor capable of generating 400W is a motor vehicle and has to be registered, insured, properly equipped (i.e. with lights), and the driver has to be licensed. (And you can't ride it on the sidewalk, duh.) E-bikes now routinely come with 800W motors, so pretty much everyone who rides one is breaking the law. And why isn't anyone talking about the manufacturers' responsibilities? A lot of them are mainstream bike companies.
The wage situation of those immigrant workers is really a separate and more important problem though. Completely apart from the e-bike issue, they need to not be treated like slaves but I guess it's good to have a GRARCYCLISTS headline to distract us from that.
posted by klanawa at 8:52 AM on April 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
klanawa: Translation: "drivers get frustrated seeing people move while they're stuck in traffic, so they direct their rage at the vulnerable."
I don't drive, but as I mentioned upthread, they're a thread to pedestrians as well. I've had countless near-misses as a pedestrian with e-bikes I've had e-bikes blow through intersections that I've tried to cross—with the light, I should add. I've had e-bikes blow past me, in both directions, while walking on the sidewalk to get somewhere. Ordinary bikes and bike riders have done the same things to me, but the incentive for delivery drivers on e-bikes to get their stuff to where it needs to go, fast, means e-bike riders are a more common offender.
posted by SansPoint at 9:03 AM on April 26, 2018
I don't drive, but as I mentioned upthread, they're a thread to pedestrians as well. I've had countless near-misses as a pedestrian with e-bikes I've had e-bikes blow through intersections that I've tried to cross—with the light, I should add. I've had e-bikes blow past me, in both directions, while walking on the sidewalk to get somewhere. Ordinary bikes and bike riders have done the same things to me, but the incentive for delivery drivers on e-bikes to get their stuff to where it needs to go, fast, means e-bike riders are a more common offender.
posted by SansPoint at 9:03 AM on April 26, 2018
This is a story of delivery services squeezing immigrants into breaking the law to turn a profit, and then shrugging and trying to cast the law as anti-immigrant. The laws are good, the circumstances are bad, and these delivery services should be regulated more tightly.
This seems dead right to me. E-bikes are as quiet as a bike, and capable of moving through tight spaces like a bike, but as fast as a car. I don't have a problem with them in traffic lanes, but they're unsafe in pedestrian spaces.
And delivery drivers are terribly underpaid and abused. The solution to that is to require that they be better paid and treated, not to allow them to make the sidewalks unsafe.
posted by LizardBreath at 9:03 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
This seems dead right to me. E-bikes are as quiet as a bike, and capable of moving through tight spaces like a bike, but as fast as a car. I don't have a problem with them in traffic lanes, but they're unsafe in pedestrian spaces.
And delivery drivers are terribly underpaid and abused. The solution to that is to require that they be better paid and treated, not to allow them to make the sidewalks unsafe.
posted by LizardBreath at 9:03 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Citylab has another take on it, noting that the NYPD helped to kill a bill that would have legalized ebikes. My uninformed guess is that the NYPD's incentive for easy metric boosts collides with the delivery workers' incentive to beat the traffic (and not have to pay for license + insurance)
But I dunno anything about NYC delivery folks, my only experience is with the DC bike delivery guy that passed me on the sidewalk and circled around to spit a full mouthful of sports drink on me because I made eye contact.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:13 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
But I dunno anything about NYC delivery folks, my only experience is with the DC bike delivery guy that passed me on the sidewalk and circled around to spit a full mouthful of sports drink on me because I made eye contact.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:13 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Someone might get hurt by a brown guy on an electric bike/scooter, combined weight 180lb: seize all such vehicles
Thousands killed every day by white people driving 4000lb juggernauts: just how it is
The law really is majestic in its equality.
posted by zippy at 9:15 AM on April 26, 2018 [29 favorites]
Thousands killed every day by white people driving 4000lb juggernauts: just how it is
The law really is majestic in its equality.
posted by zippy at 9:15 AM on April 26, 2018 [29 favorites]
zippy: You're not wrong, but usually multi-ton vehicles don't ride on the sidewalk, though.
posted by SansPoint at 9:17 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 9:17 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
In the hierarchy of hazards to pedestrians, bicyclists, and hapless dogs on leashes, ebikes don't really rate, IMO as a New Yorker who walks a lot and regularly bicycle commutes.
The only threat that matters is CARS. Cars kill pedestrians, cars kill bicyclists, cars kill hapless little dogs, by the hundreds, and the drivers are very rarely held accountable.
Focusing on any other so-called threat -- particularly one where "helping" means putting the burden on people on the margins of society to avoid inconveniencing the privileged class of NYC auto drivers -- is an insult to the lives of all those killed by cars every year.
Anybody care to produce a number of non-driver injuries associated with ebikes? Are there any deaths at all?
posted by bgribble at 9:20 AM on April 26, 2018 [26 favorites]
The only threat that matters is CARS. Cars kill pedestrians, cars kill bicyclists, cars kill hapless little dogs, by the hundreds, and the drivers are very rarely held accountable.
Focusing on any other so-called threat -- particularly one where "helping" means putting the burden on people on the margins of society to avoid inconveniencing the privileged class of NYC auto drivers -- is an insult to the lives of all those killed by cars every year.
Anybody care to produce a number of non-driver injuries associated with ebikes? Are there any deaths at all?
posted by bgribble at 9:20 AM on April 26, 2018 [26 favorites]
(Take an average city bike. Assume some things about weight, tire choice, and rider position. 20 mph on a flat requires maybe 250 W from the rider. An average untrained rider can sustain that for maybe a minute.
That's a bit of an underestimate of people, I would say.
posted by jaduncan at 9:23 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's a bit of an underestimate of people, I would say.
posted by jaduncan at 9:23 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have some conflicted feelings about this as well.
On the one hand, obviously it sucks for low-paid immigrant delivery workers to get screwed.
On the other hand, delivery workers on e-bikes are much more dangerous than delivery workers on bicycles. Generally speaking, the e-bike delivery workers are just as cavalier about traffic regulations as bicycle delivery workers (e.g., riding on sidewalks, riding the wrong way on one-way streets and bike lanes, not observing traffic lights and signage, etc.), but they travel at a significantly higher speed and carry a significantly higher weight. I also can't help but observe that practically no delivery workers in NYC drove e-bikes as recently as a decade ago, so I have a bit of a hard time accepting that it's "impossible" to do the job without an e-bike. Fundamentally, if they drive like a scooter or moped and go fast like a scooter or moped, they should probably be regulated like a scooter or moped and not like a bicycle. Or, at the very least there should be some regulation for e-bikes that distinguishes them from bicycles. Because they aren't bicycles.
posted by slkinsey at 9:36 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
On the one hand, obviously it sucks for low-paid immigrant delivery workers to get screwed.
On the other hand, delivery workers on e-bikes are much more dangerous than delivery workers on bicycles. Generally speaking, the e-bike delivery workers are just as cavalier about traffic regulations as bicycle delivery workers (e.g., riding on sidewalks, riding the wrong way on one-way streets and bike lanes, not observing traffic lights and signage, etc.), but they travel at a significantly higher speed and carry a significantly higher weight. I also can't help but observe that practically no delivery workers in NYC drove e-bikes as recently as a decade ago, so I have a bit of a hard time accepting that it's "impossible" to do the job without an e-bike. Fundamentally, if they drive like a scooter or moped and go fast like a scooter or moped, they should probably be regulated like a scooter or moped and not like a bicycle. Or, at the very least there should be some regulation for e-bikes that distinguishes them from bicycles. Because they aren't bicycles.
posted by slkinsey at 9:36 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
To justify the increased enforcement, the mayor portrayed e-bike riders as a menace to public safety. "You shouldn't feel unsafe crossing streets in your own neighborhood," de Blasio said. "We have to go after anyone who creates a threat to neighborhood residents."
I have to agree with bgribble on this. If anyone was really concerned about "going after" a threat to residents, then the drivers who mow down pedestrians on a regular basis would be facing jail time and having their vehicles confiscated. I'm sure there are some issues with delivery people on e-bikes, but this quote here made me seriously angry and I don't even live in NYC.
posted by dellsolace at 9:43 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have to agree with bgribble on this. If anyone was really concerned about "going after" a threat to residents, then the drivers who mow down pedestrians on a regular basis would be facing jail time and having their vehicles confiscated. I'm sure there are some issues with delivery people on e-bikes, but this quote here made me seriously angry and I don't even live in NYC.
posted by dellsolace at 9:43 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's obvious that the answer here is to ban internal combustion vehicles within city limits.
Ok that wouldn't help keep e-bikes off the sidewalk but do it anyway. It's not like IC is anything but barbaric these days. IC cars already off the market in Norway by 2020, motorcycles have been all but banned on Chinese city streets for a decade, car share services and electric charging stations are popping up like weeds, Amazon & Baidu are building drones, and e-bikes go fast enough to kill people, which means they're fast enough to move you around the city.
Yudi Burnama, a manager at the Japanese restaurant where Li Guoan worked, said he would accompany Li to the police precinct, but that the restaurant wouldn't help pay his fine. "They make money, then they pay for it," he said. "That's the rules from the beginning here."
Burnama added that while his restaurant has not been fined for employing workers who use e-bikes, he has observed the police cracking down on delivery cyclists.
"You know, they work hard, they make like, one hundred dollars a day, maybe less sometimes," he said. "And then you know, sometimes you get two tickets at the same time. Sometimes three tickets. That's like, two hundred fifty dollars, three hundred dollars. It's just crazy."
Why not just hand the cop $50 and solve it without all the paperwork?
In 2016, Lee found that nearly all of the summonses given by police to commercial cyclists over the previous eight years were issued on the Upper East Side, Upper West Side, and Midtown, neighborhoods that are overwhelmingly white.
"We're talking about mostly immigrant men of color, but mostly Asian and Latino men, who are riding electric bikes in very wealthy neighborhoods," Lee said. "And who order a lot of delivery too."
Ohhhhhhh. I forgot, this is the police force that made stop and frisk famous. I won't ask.
posted by saysthis at 9:49 AM on April 26, 2018
Ok that wouldn't help keep e-bikes off the sidewalk but do it anyway. It's not like IC is anything but barbaric these days. IC cars already off the market in Norway by 2020, motorcycles have been all but banned on Chinese city streets for a decade, car share services and electric charging stations are popping up like weeds, Amazon & Baidu are building drones, and e-bikes go fast enough to kill people, which means they're fast enough to move you around the city.
Yudi Burnama, a manager at the Japanese restaurant where Li Guoan worked, said he would accompany Li to the police precinct, but that the restaurant wouldn't help pay his fine. "They make money, then they pay for it," he said. "That's the rules from the beginning here."
Burnama added that while his restaurant has not been fined for employing workers who use e-bikes, he has observed the police cracking down on delivery cyclists.
"You know, they work hard, they make like, one hundred dollars a day, maybe less sometimes," he said. "And then you know, sometimes you get two tickets at the same time. Sometimes three tickets. That's like, two hundred fifty dollars, three hundred dollars. It's just crazy."
Why not just hand the cop $50 and solve it without all the paperwork?
In 2016, Lee found that nearly all of the summonses given by police to commercial cyclists over the previous eight years were issued on the Upper East Side, Upper West Side, and Midtown, neighborhoods that are overwhelmingly white.
"We're talking about mostly immigrant men of color, but mostly Asian and Latino men, who are riding electric bikes in very wealthy neighborhoods," Lee said. "And who order a lot of delivery too."
Ohhhhhhh. I forgot, this is the police force that made stop and frisk famous. I won't ask.
posted by saysthis at 9:49 AM on April 26, 2018
"I have a bit of a hard time accepting that it's "impossible" to do the job without an e-bike."
I figure it's impossible now because there ARE e-bikes and now the shop has fired all but one of their delivery guys because he can handle the whole workload, and if his productivity drops because he's obeying traffic signals, well there's two other delivery guys they know who they know are out of work.
Also, there shouldn't be bikes on the sidewalk, and also what a bunch or people here said, if general safety were actually the concern, they'd address cars killing people.
posted by turkeybrain at 9:50 AM on April 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
I figure it's impossible now because there ARE e-bikes and now the shop has fired all but one of their delivery guys because he can handle the whole workload, and if his productivity drops because he's obeying traffic signals, well there's two other delivery guys they know who they know are out of work.
Also, there shouldn't be bikes on the sidewalk, and also what a bunch or people here said, if general safety were actually the concern, they'd address cars killing people.
posted by turkeybrain at 9:50 AM on April 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
This is a story of delivery services squeezing immigrants into breaking the law to turn a profit, and then shrugging and trying to cast the law as anti-immigrant. The laws are good, the circumstances are bad, and these delivery services should be regulated more tightly.
Agreed.
I live and work in NYC. One of my co-workers was knocked down by a delivery guy riding one last year, and she broke her wrist and forearm. He was driving on a sidewalk, weaving in and out of slow-moving pedestrians in midtown. He hit her from behind and she went flying face first into the pavement. She brought her arms up to protect herself and landed on them. Good thing, too.
They're a threat to pedestrians and should be banned from driving on sidewalks. We don't let motorcycles drive on sidewalks. The e-bikes are no different. Force them to only travel in the streets. It would be fine. It's not like traffic moves faster than they do on most streets anyway. And NYC drivers are already used to dealing with messengers and other people on bicycles, and even delivery people on little motorized scooter bikes. The idea that drivers somehow resent e-bikes more than people on scooters is silly.
But ebikes they do not belong on our sidewalks, which are for pedestrians. It's hard enough navigating crowded sidewalks here when you're going 3mph under your own steam.
The only reason they need to go so fast is their companies are exploiting them to turn a profit.
"I would never use a regular bike, there's no way to ride a regular bike,"
A few years back pretty much every delivery service in the city either used scooters (which stayed on the roads) or bicycles, which also pretty much stayed on the roads and in some cases now have their own lanes. Cyclists and scooter drivers have rules to obey. They're supposed to drive on the road, not the sidewalks. Scooters can go at least twice the speed of one of those ebikes. At least 40 mph. If they can be regulated to stay off of pedestrian walkways, why can't e-bikes?
posted by zarq at 9:52 AM on April 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Agreed.
I live and work in NYC. One of my co-workers was knocked down by a delivery guy riding one last year, and she broke her wrist and forearm. He was driving on a sidewalk, weaving in and out of slow-moving pedestrians in midtown. He hit her from behind and she went flying face first into the pavement. She brought her arms up to protect herself and landed on them. Good thing, too.
They're a threat to pedestrians and should be banned from driving on sidewalks. We don't let motorcycles drive on sidewalks. The e-bikes are no different. Force them to only travel in the streets. It would be fine. It's not like traffic moves faster than they do on most streets anyway. And NYC drivers are already used to dealing with messengers and other people on bicycles, and even delivery people on little motorized scooter bikes. The idea that drivers somehow resent e-bikes more than people on scooters is silly.
But ebikes they do not belong on our sidewalks, which are for pedestrians. It's hard enough navigating crowded sidewalks here when you're going 3mph under your own steam.
The only reason they need to go so fast is their companies are exploiting them to turn a profit.
"I would never use a regular bike, there's no way to ride a regular bike,"
A few years back pretty much every delivery service in the city either used scooters (which stayed on the roads) or bicycles, which also pretty much stayed on the roads and in some cases now have their own lanes. Cyclists and scooter drivers have rules to obey. They're supposed to drive on the road, not the sidewalks. Scooters can go at least twice the speed of one of those ebikes. At least 40 mph. If they can be regulated to stay off of pedestrian walkways, why can't e-bikes?
posted by zarq at 9:52 AM on April 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
While e-bikes are annoying, so is not being able to feed yourself and your family. Obviously the answer is to ban e-bikes to better hide the consequences of our collective actions to maintain an underclass that capitalism needs to continue to exist.
posted by Automocar at 9:55 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Automocar at 9:55 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh hey, look. More white people calling the police on brown people. And more police feeling free to harass people of color in ways that disproportionately affect people who are poor.
Way to go New York, we come out of this demonstrating to the country that we're just as racist as "The South."
Between this and parent outcry about desegregating schools in NYC, I just keep getting more and more mad about casual, unexamined racism. Just because people listened one time to a whole speech by Martin Luther King, Jr, does not mean they can't be racist.
And just because some of these officers pulling over delivery guys are also people of color does not absolve them of being complicit in a racist system.
The pressure on these guys (delivery is almost entirely done by men) is super time pressured - companies want to have as few delivery guys as possible, the work is exhausting and dangerous - I called an ambulance for a delivery guy who had been hit by a BMW a few weeks ago. The driver was offering him $800 to go away. The delivery guy walked his broken bike away without even getting any money from the BMW lady. The ambulance crew said they see it all the time, people are afraid to be treated for their injuries because of their own immigration status, or someone in their family.
So. This is a mess.
posted by bilabial at 9:58 AM on April 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Way to go New York, we come out of this demonstrating to the country that we're just as racist as "The South."
Between this and parent outcry about desegregating schools in NYC, I just keep getting more and more mad about casual, unexamined racism. Just because people listened one time to a whole speech by Martin Luther King, Jr, does not mean they can't be racist.
And just because some of these officers pulling over delivery guys are also people of color does not absolve them of being complicit in a racist system.
The pressure on these guys (delivery is almost entirely done by men) is super time pressured - companies want to have as few delivery guys as possible, the work is exhausting and dangerous - I called an ambulance for a delivery guy who had been hit by a BMW a few weeks ago. The driver was offering him $800 to go away. The delivery guy walked his broken bike away without even getting any money from the BMW lady. The ambulance crew said they see it all the time, people are afraid to be treated for their injuries because of their own immigration status, or someone in their family.
So. This is a mess.
posted by bilabial at 9:58 AM on April 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's worth noting that all bikes (including e-bikes) are already banned on sidewalks in NYC unless you are under 12. The (current) ban on e-bikes is a ban on using them on the streets. It's true that they don't always stay on the roads, but the ban is on using them anywhere.
I wonder how many of the people complaining about e-bikes are also people who order take-out. NYC residents (I am one) seem to want it both ways- we want to be able to order delivery, we want our food fast, hot, and without paying too much, but we seem to want it to somehow happen magically, without ever dealing with delivery drivers.
posted by matcha action at 10:00 AM on April 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
I wonder how many of the people complaining about e-bikes are also people who order take-out. NYC residents (I am one) seem to want it both ways- we want to be able to order delivery, we want our food fast, hot, and without paying too much, but we seem to want it to somehow happen magically, without ever dealing with delivery drivers.
posted by matcha action at 10:00 AM on April 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
I haven't heard any complaints about e-bikes that are at all inherent to e-bikes. Riding on the sidewalk? It's already against the rules, whether you're riding a regular bike or an e-bike. E-bikes do not somehow facilitate sidewalk-riding.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:05 AM on April 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:05 AM on April 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
They could be using motorcycles or scooters like a Vespa, but they'd be subject to motor vehicle laws. They could be using non motorized bikes, or even the pedal-assist bikes, but they'd be slower.
It could be that the state (or city) is wrong, and they should legalize them as a lower class of motorcycle, and that's that. Or it could be that like go-karts, ATVs, and other unregisterable vehicles, they don't belong on the streets.
Regardless, the issue is that the delivery services are pressing their delivery personnel to break the law, and the personnel are seeing the penalties, not the company. The companies are attempting to use their employees' race as a shield, to deflect criticism back to the government by calling these regulations racist.
When Dominos had their 30 minute guarantee and it lead to drivers speeding, that was a problem. Most pizza delivery drivers are poor. That didn't make speed limits classist. It meant Dominos had a bad policy.
posted by explosion at 10:08 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
It could be that the state (or city) is wrong, and they should legalize them as a lower class of motorcycle, and that's that. Or it could be that like go-karts, ATVs, and other unregisterable vehicles, they don't belong on the streets.
Regardless, the issue is that the delivery services are pressing their delivery personnel to break the law, and the personnel are seeing the penalties, not the company. The companies are attempting to use their employees' race as a shield, to deflect criticism back to the government by calling these regulations racist.
When Dominos had their 30 minute guarantee and it lead to drivers speeding, that was a problem. Most pizza delivery drivers are poor. That didn't make speed limits classist. It meant Dominos had a bad policy.
posted by explosion at 10:08 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Wait til 5 years pass and all these independent delivery drivers have to buy cheap delivery drones for Amazon's delivery service. The good news is they won't hit you on the sidewalk, except with a package, falling from 100 feet in the air. Friends don't let friends order 45 pound dumbbells.
posted by Nanukthedog at 10:08 AM on April 26, 2018
posted by Nanukthedog at 10:08 AM on April 26, 2018
It's worth noting that all bikes (including e-bikes) are already banned on sidewalks in NYC unless you are under 12.
Up until recently, no one enforced it unless somebody actually hit someone. The person who hit my co-worker was gone by the time she got up. Someone took pictures of them with a cell phone, but there was no one to file charges against.
The (current) ban on e-bikes is a ban on using them on the streets.
Yeah, which makes no sense.
posted by zarq at 10:09 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Up until recently, no one enforced it unless somebody actually hit someone. The person who hit my co-worker was gone by the time she got up. Someone took pictures of them with a cell phone, but there was no one to file charges against.
The (current) ban on e-bikes is a ban on using them on the streets.
Yeah, which makes no sense.
posted by zarq at 10:09 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is the part that will stick with me:
"There's this weird plausible deniability," Lee says of the mayor's position. "'Oh, I'm this Sanctuary City mayor, I'm not going after immigrants.' But the actual implementation absolutely is."posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:10 AM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
From The Biking Public Project:
"Hear Who Delivers Your Food -- What Some Food Delivery Workers Have to Say About the NYPD’s Crackdown on Electric Bikes"
posted by zarq at 10:11 AM on April 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
"Hear Who Delivers Your Food -- What Some Food Delivery Workers Have to Say About the NYPD’s Crackdown on Electric Bikes"
posted by zarq at 10:11 AM on April 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
In many cities, though not NYC, it is perfectly legal to ride a bicycle (which includes legal eBikes whose assist cuts out at 20mph) on the sidewalk, with the caveat that the rider must yield to pedestrians. Of course, that happens approximately as often as cyclists and drivers yielding to pedestrians who are crossing the road and an intersection. (Which is a figure almost imperceptibly greater than zero. It happens on rare occasion, but is so uncommon that it is remarkable when it happens)
I much prefer dodging ebikes to dodging cars, thanks, so if my choice is between someone driving a car like a jackass and riding an ebike like a jackass, I'll take the latter every time.
posted by wierdo at 10:12 AM on April 26, 2018
I much prefer dodging ebikes to dodging cars, thanks, so if my choice is between someone driving a car like a jackass and riding an ebike like a jackass, I'll take the latter every time.
posted by wierdo at 10:12 AM on April 26, 2018
Also of note is that this is the first story of the revived Gothamist. (Dislcosure: I freelanced for the original Gothamist.)
posted by plastic_animals at 10:20 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by plastic_animals at 10:20 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
what is particularly messed up about this is one of the details: pedal-assist ebikes are legal, throttle controlled ebikes are not.
while both bikes have pedals, the pedal assist one needs more electronics and gimcrackery to detect that the motor can be engaged. it's not functionally different, it's just what's needed to say "oh, this is a people powered vehicle" because you have to nudge the pedal a little to get it started.
and so we come to why it's messed up. it is more expensive to make the more complex bike. and this matters greatly when you're earning $10/hr.
the law that selects for pedal-assist over throttle-controlled enforces that people with more money are more legal.
posted by zippy at 10:24 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
while both bikes have pedals, the pedal assist one needs more electronics and gimcrackery to detect that the motor can be engaged. it's not functionally different, it's just what's needed to say "oh, this is a people powered vehicle" because you have to nudge the pedal a little to get it started.
and so we come to why it's messed up. it is more expensive to make the more complex bike. and this matters greatly when you're earning $10/hr.
the law that selects for pedal-assist over throttle-controlled enforces that people with more money are more legal.
posted by zippy at 10:24 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
They could be using motorcycles or scooters like a Vespa, but they'd be subject to motor vehicle laws. They could be using non motorized bikes, or even the pedal-assist bikes, but they'd be slower.
Worth noting: pedal-assist bikes, too, were illegal to operate (but, like all e-bikes, perfectly legal to own) until earlier this month, and were also subject to the crackdown. It was advocacy from the immigrant and cycling community that changed this.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:26 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Worth noting: pedal-assist bikes, too, were illegal to operate (but, like all e-bikes, perfectly legal to own) until earlier this month, and were also subject to the crackdown. It was advocacy from the immigrant and cycling community that changed this.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:26 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
haven't heard any complaints about e-bikes that are at all inherent to e-bikes. Riding on the sidewalk? It's already against the rules, whether you're riding a regular bike or an e-bike. E-bikes do not somehow facilitate sidewalk-riding
Yeah, this. It really sounds like the NYPD can’t arsed to actually check on and enforce the law when they find violators that could be harmful, like driving on the sidewalks, so they just want to make all ebikes illegal so it’s an easy clear-cut situation for them. Maximum laziness, maximum arresting immigrants. I’m sure they’re thrilled.
posted by corb at 10:37 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this. It really sounds like the NYPD can’t arsed to actually check on and enforce the law when they find violators that could be harmful, like driving on the sidewalks, so they just want to make all ebikes illegal so it’s an easy clear-cut situation for them. Maximum laziness, maximum arresting immigrants. I’m sure they’re thrilled.
posted by corb at 10:37 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think those of the people commenting on this post who aren't big-city pedestrians perhaps may not viscerally appreciate the danger involved here. If your usual daily experience with walking is going from a parking lot into another building, or strolling in a park, it's not the same as if part or all of your work commute and part or all of your daily errands are on foot on the streets. I want car traffic cut down, too; I support congestion pricing, expanding the MTA, and traffic shaping. I'd be fine with a daytime car-free core city zone. But it is hard enough dealing with the damn cars. When you establish a rule, you have to consider the likelihood of its violation and the harm that could be caused by its violation. We already have super-abundant evidence of what non-powered bikers and ebikers actually do in actual practice: they frequently use the sidewalk regardless of the rules. And I can't tell you the number of times I've nearly been clobbered by a bike. I actually think more frequently than a car, because when I move to the left on a sidewalk I'm not expecting someone to be coming up from behind me silently at a significantly higher speed. Increasing the speed and weight of the vehicle crashing into me does not help.
I agree with those who say that this is another example of corporations deliberately creating situations where one is pressured to take illegal actions to keep one's job, and then trying to get the employees and everyone hurt by the illegality to fight amongst each other rather than looking at what's actually causing the problem. We don't need ebikes for delivery in this city. They're being pushed to squeeze a few more dimes of profit out at the expense of public safety.
posted by praemunire at 10:38 AM on April 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
I agree with those who say that this is another example of corporations deliberately creating situations where one is pressured to take illegal actions to keep one's job, and then trying to get the employees and everyone hurt by the illegality to fight amongst each other rather than looking at what's actually causing the problem. We don't need ebikes for delivery in this city. They're being pushed to squeeze a few more dimes of profit out at the expense of public safety.
posted by praemunire at 10:38 AM on April 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
Ah, yes. Delivery. I remember driving for Pizza Hut drag out of high school. On the surface, it seemed like a decent gig — with the per trip fee and tips, you could easily double minimum wage. Of course, when you factor in fuel, repairs and vehicle maintenance, it wasn’t so profitable for me. I’m sure it’s the same for these e-bike guys.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2018
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2018
usually multi-ton vehicles don't ride on the sidewalk, though.
Not usually, but when they do, many people are hurt and killed. We deal with this by outlawing cars on sidewalks and arresting drunk drivers. We don't seize all cars.
One Dead and 22 Injured as Car Rams Into Pedestrians in Times Square
posted by zippy at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Not usually, but when they do, many people are hurt and killed. We deal with this by outlawing cars on sidewalks and arresting drunk drivers. We don't seize all cars.
One Dead and 22 Injured as Car Rams Into Pedestrians in Times Square
posted by zippy at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Surprised they don't just license throttle-controlled ebikes like motorcycles. Expensive training, expensive license, but at least you get trained users. I'm not aware of any outbreak of motorcycle riders in Manhattan taking to the sidewalks although they're certainly capable of it so presumably the difference is training.
This wouldn't necessarily make life a lot easier for low-income delivery people, but it makes it legally possible for these bikes to operate and they're both cheaper and better for the environment than motorbikes.
I hate bikes on sidewalks as much as anyone but it seems like more ebikes and fewer cars or motorbikes is a net win for NYC.
posted by GuyZero at 10:41 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
This wouldn't necessarily make life a lot easier for low-income delivery people, but it makes it legally possible for these bikes to operate and they're both cheaper and better for the environment than motorbikes.
I hate bikes on sidewalks as much as anyone but it seems like more ebikes and fewer cars or motorbikes is a net win for NYC.
posted by GuyZero at 10:41 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also worth noting: state and local law does not specifically ban e-bikes, it just doesn't provide for their existence. When the laws were written, there was no such thing as an e-bike, so they fall into a legal space where you can totally own one - but you can't ride it without registering it, because it's under a broad legal classification with moped and motorcycles - but you can't register it as a moped or a motorcycle, because it isn't one - and you can't register it as an e-bike, because there is no provision for doing so. But at no time did anyone in NYC decide to make e-bikes illegal because of danger.
I think those of the people commenting on this post who aren't big-city pedestrians perhaps may not viscerally appreciate the danger involved here.
I live in NYC and in addition to being a pedestrian, I work in transportation advocacy. I do appreciate the danger, which is as follows: there is not one record of anyone being killed by an e-bike in NYC that we or the NYPD or the mayor have been able to find.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:42 AM on April 26, 2018 [25 favorites]
I think those of the people commenting on this post who aren't big-city pedestrians perhaps may not viscerally appreciate the danger involved here.
I live in NYC and in addition to being a pedestrian, I work in transportation advocacy. I do appreciate the danger, which is as follows: there is not one record of anyone being killed by an e-bike in NYC that we or the NYPD or the mayor have been able to find.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:42 AM on April 26, 2018 [25 favorites]
Could this be improved by requiring commercial e-bikes to register with the city and have a clearly visible sticker / plate, and charge restaurants a huge fine for contracting out delivery to anyone who doesn't have a registered e-bike? Wait, that won't work because the delivery workers will just say they are riding a nonmotor bicycle. Hmmm... Tricky problem.
I also think e-bikes, especially ungoverned or 28mph governed should never be on the sidewalk, but at the same time, I live in a community where they put sharrows on streets with traffic going in excess of 45mph, so people who can only get up to 20mph are not going to feel or be safe riding those streets. It's a tough problem for bike advocates.
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:00 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I also think e-bikes, especially ungoverned or 28mph governed should never be on the sidewalk, but at the same time, I live in a community where they put sharrows on streets with traffic going in excess of 45mph, so people who can only get up to 20mph are not going to feel or be safe riding those streets. It's a tough problem for bike advocates.
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:00 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
A modest proposal: Dedicated lanes for e-bike users who meet their monthly quota of capturing video evidence of people using Facetime while driving their cars.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:08 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:08 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Wait, that won't work because the delivery workers will just say they are riding a nonmotor bicycle. Hmmm... Tricky problem.
A throttle-controlled ebike can be identified from across the street - the motor is very, very obvious as is the battery pack.
If a motor-powered bike can pass as a regular bike then it's probably not throttle-controlled and is probably not very powerful/fast.
posted by GuyZero at 11:10 AM on April 26, 2018
A throttle-controlled ebike can be identified from across the street - the motor is very, very obvious as is the battery pack.
If a motor-powered bike can pass as a regular bike then it's probably not throttle-controlled and is probably not very powerful/fast.
posted by GuyZero at 11:10 AM on April 26, 2018
I'd suggest that a huge part of the problem has nothing to do with the specific method of delivery, and rather with the employment conditions common to delivery workers and could be solved by passing regulations on delivery employers rather than the methods of delivery.
If an employer is required to pay a livable hourly wage to delivery workers and maintain X workers per Y deliveries then a great deal of the pressure applied to the worker to undertake unsafe acts when working would vanish.
They don't ride e-bikes at high speed down busy pedestrian sidewalks because they want to, or because they think it's fun. They do so because it is the only way they can keep their job and earn enough money to avoid starvation.
Force employers to hire enough delivery workers that the delivery worker can take a safer approach to delivery, force employers to pay a decent hourly wage so that delivery workers have no need to cram in as many deliveries as possible to avoid starvation, and I suspect a lot of the problem will self solve.
Of course it'd also be a good idea to change how e-bikes are regulated, require them to be on bike lanes or the road, and so forth, but to an extent that's solving the symptom rather than the problem.
posted by sotonohito at 11:12 AM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
If an employer is required to pay a livable hourly wage to delivery workers and maintain X workers per Y deliveries then a great deal of the pressure applied to the worker to undertake unsafe acts when working would vanish.
They don't ride e-bikes at high speed down busy pedestrian sidewalks because they want to, or because they think it's fun. They do so because it is the only way they can keep their job and earn enough money to avoid starvation.
Force employers to hire enough delivery workers that the delivery worker can take a safer approach to delivery, force employers to pay a decent hourly wage so that delivery workers have no need to cram in as many deliveries as possible to avoid starvation, and I suspect a lot of the problem will self solve.
Of course it'd also be a good idea to change how e-bikes are regulated, require them to be on bike lanes or the road, and so forth, but to an extent that's solving the symptom rather than the problem.
posted by sotonohito at 11:12 AM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
Of course, my proposal would necessitate higher delivery fees on delivered food.
The people purchasing delivered food at low prices are also part of the problem. Tips are great, but as evidenced by the people quoted in the linked Medium article, clearly insufficient.
posted by sotonohito at 11:13 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
The people purchasing delivered food at low prices are also part of the problem. Tips are great, but as evidenced by the people quoted in the linked Medium article, clearly insufficient.
posted by sotonohito at 11:13 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I do appreciate the danger, which is as follows: there is not one record of anyone being killed by an e-bike in NYC that we or the NYPD or the mayor have been able to find.
Well, then! That settles it! Since you apparently regard the costs of merely being seriously injured by such a collision to be not worth worrying about, may I send any future hospital bills to you?
(Also, "no one using a recently-popularized technology that it is actually illegal to use has killed someone yet" is not exactly a resounding vote of confidence. Though it's pretty rare, regular bikers do, in fact, kill someone from time to time. We had at least two very serious injuries to pedestrians caused by motorcyclists just in the past year. Why would you think an e-bike is safer than a slower, lighter non-powered bike and not at least as dangerous as a motorcycle?)
posted by praemunire at 11:14 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Well, then! That settles it! Since you apparently regard the costs of merely being seriously injured by such a collision to be not worth worrying about, may I send any future hospital bills to you?
(Also, "no one using a recently-popularized technology that it is actually illegal to use has killed someone yet" is not exactly a resounding vote of confidence. Though it's pretty rare, regular bikers do, in fact, kill someone from time to time. We had at least two very serious injuries to pedestrians caused by motorcyclists just in the past year. Why would you think an e-bike is safer than a slower, lighter non-powered bike and not at least as dangerous as a motorcycle?)
posted by praemunire at 11:14 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've had countless near-misses as a pedestrian with e-bikes I've had e-bikes blow through intersections that I've tried to cross—with the light, I should add. I've had e-bikes blow past me, in both directions, while walking on the sidewalk to get somewhere.
So you’ve been... repeatedly not-hit by e-bikes? That’s not-terrible! Something must be not-done about this not-menace.
posted by nicwolff at 11:15 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
So you’ve been... repeatedly not-hit by e-bikes? That’s not-terrible! Something must be not-done about this not-menace.
posted by nicwolff at 11:15 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
If an employer is required to pay a livable hourly wage to delivery workers and maintain X workers per Y deliveries then a great deal of the pressure applied to the worker to undertake unsafe acts when working would vanish.
Yes, actual crackdown on treating as "independent contractors" employees who are plainly not and putting them on the same minimum wage regime as everyone else would help here. It would also raise delivery prices, which, well, that's the cost of people earning a modicum of a living. Sit-down restaurants have had to swallow those costs, let the others do so as well.
posted by praemunire at 11:16 AM on April 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
Yes, actual crackdown on treating as "independent contractors" employees who are plainly not and putting them on the same minimum wage regime as everyone else would help here. It would also raise delivery prices, which, well, that's the cost of people earning a modicum of a living. Sit-down restaurants have had to swallow those costs, let the others do so as well.
posted by praemunire at 11:16 AM on April 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
So you’ve been... repeatedly not-hit by e-bikes? That’s not-terrible! Something must be not-done about this not-menace.
This is absurd. If you were repeatedly nearly run over by a car, you wouldn't think it wasn't worth worrying about. Whether or not I end up in the ER should not depend on whether I move one further inch to the left on the sidewalk.
posted by praemunire at 11:18 AM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
This is absurd. If you were repeatedly nearly run over by a car, you wouldn't think it wasn't worth worrying about. Whether or not I end up in the ER should not depend on whether I move one further inch to the left on the sidewalk.
posted by praemunire at 11:18 AM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
Yeah, there's no way that reactions to this don't sound racist. I mean, the delivery food that people are privileged enough to get delivered to them and pay for because someone who may or may not be illegal is trying to get to the food at the speed which they require (god forbid if the egg rolls are cold) and who is also hoping he can make rent, plus GRAR at e-bikes and bikes in general, but hey I like cars so I will keep mum about that, it just all comes out terrible.
Should bikes and e-bikes be allowed on sidewalks or to shimmy through traffic? Hell no. But the fault isn't with the people with e-bikes; the fault is with the system that forces them to do dangerous and dumb shit because people want hot food now or else no tip.
posted by Kitteh at 11:19 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Should bikes and e-bikes be allowed on sidewalks or to shimmy through traffic? Hell no. But the fault isn't with the people with e-bikes; the fault is with the system that forces them to do dangerous and dumb shit because people want hot food now or else no tip.
posted by Kitteh at 11:19 AM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
One other thing worth noting: This is not true of all of NYC and particularly Manhattan, obviously, but I live basically on the edge of Manhattan Valley. I don't have more recent numbers and I expect it's changed significantly since then (though the projects are still there), but in 2000, about 75% of the population was Hispanic or African-American and something like 50% of the population low-income. People in those demographics are just as likely to get hit in the street as I am. There are clearly multiple ways by which race, nationality, and class serve to make the e-bike issue hit poor immigrants especially hard. I wouldn't dream of denying that. But street safety is not an issue only for the white or the rich.
posted by praemunire at 11:29 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:29 AM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also, there shouldn't be bikes on the sidewalk, and also what a bunch or people here said, if general safety were actually the concern, they'd address cars killing people.
Or, I dunno, address both? The north end of the UWS (Manhattan Valley) where I live isn't exactly a hotspot for automobile-related fatalities (especially those not connected to jaywalking). Personally I have felt my safety far more threatened by bicycles (including both pedal-powered and e-powered) than I have by automobiles during my 25+ years in the neighborhood. Those living in areas for which motor vehicle traffic poses a greater inherent danger to pedestrians may feel differently. I have certainly seen far more unsafe driving and violations of basic traffic regulations by bicyclists (and now e-cyclists) over the years than I have by automobile, motorcycle, scooter or moped drivers. For whatever it's worth, I've long been a proponent of severely restricting non-commercial traffic in Manhattan.
It seems to me that all powered transportation, including human-powered transportation capable of certain speeds, should be subject to licensing and regulation for driving in NYC. If the law hasn't caught up with e-bikes, the solution clearly must be that the law is made to catch up rather than the City cracking down on something that isn't particularly addressed or contemplated in the existing law. I'd like to see e-bikes subject to the same regulations as mopeds and scooters, and I'd like to see fairly stiff penalties for transgressions such as running lights, wrong-way travel and riding on the sidewalk.
posted by slkinsey at 11:43 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Or, I dunno, address both? The north end of the UWS (Manhattan Valley) where I live isn't exactly a hotspot for automobile-related fatalities (especially those not connected to jaywalking). Personally I have felt my safety far more threatened by bicycles (including both pedal-powered and e-powered) than I have by automobiles during my 25+ years in the neighborhood. Those living in areas for which motor vehicle traffic poses a greater inherent danger to pedestrians may feel differently. I have certainly seen far more unsafe driving and violations of basic traffic regulations by bicyclists (and now e-cyclists) over the years than I have by automobile, motorcycle, scooter or moped drivers. For whatever it's worth, I've long been a proponent of severely restricting non-commercial traffic in Manhattan.
It seems to me that all powered transportation, including human-powered transportation capable of certain speeds, should be subject to licensing and regulation for driving in NYC. If the law hasn't caught up with e-bikes, the solution clearly must be that the law is made to catch up rather than the City cracking down on something that isn't particularly addressed or contemplated in the existing law. I'd like to see e-bikes subject to the same regulations as mopeds and scooters, and I'd like to see fairly stiff penalties for transgressions such as running lights, wrong-way travel and riding on the sidewalk.
posted by slkinsey at 11:43 AM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
praemunire: "I think those of the people commenting on this post who aren't big-city pedestrians perhaps may not viscerally appreciate the danger involved here."
I think it's okay to make the supposition that people on Metafilter are much more likely to be familiar with being pedestrians in large metro areas, and it's at least much better than supposing the contrary.
posted by TypographicalError at 11:44 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think it's okay to make the supposition that people on Metafilter are much more likely to be familiar with being pedestrians in large metro areas, and it's at least much better than supposing the contrary.
posted by TypographicalError at 11:44 AM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
praemunire: I think those of the people commenting on this post who aren't big-city pedestrians perhaps may not viscerally appreciate the danger involved here.
TypographicalError: I think it's okay to make the supposition that people on Metafilter are much more likely to be familiar with being pedestrians in large metro areas, and it's at least much better than supposing the contrary.
It may be worth noting that most participants whose profiles suggest they are "big-city pedestrians" have come down on the side of e-bike delivery workers being a routine danger to pedestrians. My sense is that this correlation would be stronger still if we narrowed that down to big-city residents who don't own cars (as opposed to those living in outer boroughs where they are likely to drive as often, if not more frequently than they walk and take pubic transportation).
posted by slkinsey at 12:09 PM on April 26, 2018
TypographicalError: I think it's okay to make the supposition that people on Metafilter are much more likely to be familiar with being pedestrians in large metro areas, and it's at least much better than supposing the contrary.
It may be worth noting that most participants whose profiles suggest they are "big-city pedestrians" have come down on the side of e-bike delivery workers being a routine danger to pedestrians. My sense is that this correlation would be stronger still if we narrowed that down to big-city residents who don't own cars (as opposed to those living in outer boroughs where they are likely to drive as often, if not more frequently than they walk and take pubic transportation).
posted by slkinsey at 12:09 PM on April 26, 2018
I think those of the people commenting on this post who aren't big-city pedestrians perhaps may not viscerally appreciate the danger involved here.
i am a pedestrian in a city known for its aggressive bike messengers, and i think this crackdown is wrong.
posted by zippy at 12:16 PM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
i am a pedestrian in a city known for its aggressive bike messengers, and i think this crackdown is wrong.
posted by zippy at 12:16 PM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yeah, there's no way that reactions to this don't sound racist. I mean, the delivery food that people are privileged enough to get delivered to them and pay for
I know people often don't read the full article before commenting, but in this case it's literally the first sentence where an e-bike rider explains “people with low incomes, that’s who I deliver to most often”.
Impugning racism to anyone who find that the use of e-bikes by delivery drivers within New York City problematic is as fair as calling anybody who doesn't find them an issue a racist apologist for restaurant owners exploiting the drivers by classifying them as independent contractors to avoid paying living wage.
posted by layceepee at 12:31 PM on April 26, 2018
I know people often don't read the full article before commenting, but in this case it's literally the first sentence where an e-bike rider explains “people with low incomes, that’s who I deliver to most often”.
Impugning racism to anyone who find that the use of e-bikes by delivery drivers within New York City problematic is as fair as calling anybody who doesn't find them an issue a racist apologist for restaurant owners exploiting the drivers by classifying them as independent contractors to avoid paying living wage.
posted by layceepee at 12:31 PM on April 26, 2018
zippy: i am a pedestrian in a city known for its aggressive bike messengers, and i think this crackdown is wrong.
With all due respect, and I've been there many times, Berkeley is not Manhattan. Not even close. Manhattan has more than six times the population density of Berkeley and orders of magnitude more pedestrians. Also, I'm not sure anyone is advocating in favor of the crackdown so much as they may be speaking of the dangers inherent to e-bike drivers in the City, which many of us have observed and experienced, and speaking of the need to do something to make this safer for pedestrians (by which I mean something realistic, so not including banning automobile traffic, etc.).
posted by slkinsey at 12:35 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
With all due respect, and I've been there many times, Berkeley is not Manhattan. Not even close. Manhattan has more than six times the population density of Berkeley and orders of magnitude more pedestrians. Also, I'm not sure anyone is advocating in favor of the crackdown so much as they may be speaking of the dangers inherent to e-bike drivers in the City, which many of us have observed and experienced, and speaking of the need to do something to make this safer for pedestrians (by which I mean something realistic, so not including banning automobile traffic, etc.).
posted by slkinsey at 12:35 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
"They're going really fast, much faster than a biker. They're silent so you can't hear them coming," Dawn Moore, an attorney who has lived on the Upper West Side for more than a decade, said of e-bike delivery cyclists.
"Yeah, and plus they don't speak English," added Judy Goldberg, a longtime Upper West Side resident.
There it is.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 12:38 PM on April 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
"Yeah, and plus they don't speak English," added Judy Goldberg, a longtime Upper West Side resident.
There it is.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 12:38 PM on April 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
With all due respect, and I've been there many times, Berkeley is not Manhattan
no one is saying it is. also no one that i'm aware of is saying ebikes on sidewalks hauling ass is cool.
also, you don't know where i've pedest-ed, and it's a little creepy that you'd look at my profile in order to say my take is invalid.
posted by zippy at 12:45 PM on April 26, 2018
no one is saying it is. also no one that i'm aware of is saying ebikes on sidewalks hauling ass is cool.
also, you don't know where i've pedest-ed, and it's a little creepy that you'd look at my profile in order to say my take is invalid.
posted by zippy at 12:45 PM on April 26, 2018
Berkeley may not be Manhattan, but it's a quick BART ride to the part of SF around Market and the Ferry Building that feels a lot like Manhattan in terms of density of pedestrians.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:51 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:51 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
those of the people commenting on this post who aren't big-city pedestrians perhaps may not viscerally appreciate the danger involved here.
I lived most of my life in NYC and am very familiar with what it’s like to be a big-city pedestrian even though I have since moved. Yes, in Manhattan too. The problem is not the e-bikes, there is sometimes a problem with bikes on sidewalks, which is perfectly reasonable to crack down on /and is also a danger even with just regular bikes/. Somehow they don’t outlaw every bicycle in the city because people sometimes ride bikes unsafely.
posted by corb at 12:53 PM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I lived most of my life in NYC and am very familiar with what it’s like to be a big-city pedestrian even though I have since moved. Yes, in Manhattan too. The problem is not the e-bikes, there is sometimes a problem with bikes on sidewalks, which is perfectly reasonable to crack down on /and is also a danger even with just regular bikes/. Somehow they don’t outlaw every bicycle in the city because people sometimes ride bikes unsafely.
posted by corb at 12:53 PM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'n not reading closely enough, but I'm not sure I or anyone else has been saying they think this crackdown is a good idea. I do think that I and a number of other people who live in densely populated majority-pedestrian areas of the City (my neighborhood is around 0.3 square miles populated by circa 50,000 pedestrians) are saying that they feel the danger to pedestrians from delivery workers is serious and that it's especially serious with respect to e-bike drivers due to the increased speed and weight. At least what I'm saying is that I do think something should be done to address and regulate unsafe bicycle and e-bike traffic, but I also don't think a ban on e-bikes just because they are not squarely addressed in the current law is the right thing to do. Personally, I'd rather just see cyclists, whether delivery workers or not, stopped and fined for things that are already on the books such as wrong-way driving, sidewalk driving and running traffic lights/signals. It doesn't make sense to me to target an e-bike driver who is obeying traffic regulations just because he's driving an e-bike, especially when it isn't exactly difficult to find an e-bike driver who is violating those regulations.
(zippy: Sorry, but if you're going to use your experience as a pedestrian in "a city known for its aggressive bike messengers" to refute another participant's assertion, I don't see how you wouldn't expect at least someone to look at your openly-listed city of residence. If that's creepy to you, maybe don't list it?)
posted by slkinsey at 1:26 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
(zippy: Sorry, but if you're going to use your experience as a pedestrian in "a city known for its aggressive bike messengers" to refute another participant's assertion, I don't see how you wouldn't expect at least someone to look at your openly-listed city of residence. If that's creepy to you, maybe don't list it?)
posted by slkinsey at 1:26 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Mod note: As a point of order about site practice and expectations: no, it's not generally cool to decide to introduce someone's profile information into the discussion on their behalf, even when trying to help to say nothing of trying to pull a gotcha. If you think something is pertinent enough for someone to discuss, you can broach the subject and let them make that call. Profile pages are not indexed and we expect folks to try to treat their content with care.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:30 PM on April 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:30 PM on April 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
It's obvious that the answer here is to ban internal combustion vehicles within city limits.
Can't be done. Commercial traffic is a significant percentage of the cars, vans and trucks on our roads. It keeps our businesses running and the city functioning.
For the last decade, congestion pricing plans have been proposed by state and city council which would enact a toll on anyone driving a non-commercial vehicle in or out of midtown Manhattan during the day. The latest proposal notes "below 60th street and above 14th." Previous proposals have covered anywhere from 125th street to Wall Street. But they won't impose fees on commercial traffic, which would cause businesses to raise retail prices.
We're an island with high population density and many restaurants and businesses that rely on frequent shipments from outside vendors. Until someone invents matter transporters or electric trucks become commonplace and all vendors start using them, our roads are gonna be filled with internal combustion engines.
posted by zarq at 1:38 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Can't be done. Commercial traffic is a significant percentage of the cars, vans and trucks on our roads. It keeps our businesses running and the city functioning.
For the last decade, congestion pricing plans have been proposed by state and city council which would enact a toll on anyone driving a non-commercial vehicle in or out of midtown Manhattan during the day. The latest proposal notes "below 60th street and above 14th." Previous proposals have covered anywhere from 125th street to Wall Street. But they won't impose fees on commercial traffic, which would cause businesses to raise retail prices.
We're an island with high population density and many restaurants and businesses that rely on frequent shipments from outside vendors. Until someone invents matter transporters or electric trucks become commonplace and all vendors start using them, our roads are gonna be filled with internal combustion engines.
posted by zarq at 1:38 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Commercial traffic is a significant percentage of the cars, vans and trucks on our roads.
This may be a bit of a derail, and while I agree that it would be politically untenable to ban motorized vehicles in Manhattan, I have been surprised at just how much traffic is comprised of personal transportation. This was most starkly evident during the MTA workers strike, when all car traffic carrying fewer than 4 passengers was banned below 96th Street. This eliminated the vast majority of personal car traffic, and the streets were virtually deserted. I bet that some form of licensing for commercial vehicles combined with steep congestion pricing for non-commercial vehicles would have a dramatic effect on Manhattan traffic.
posted by slkinsey at 1:47 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
This may be a bit of a derail, and while I agree that it would be politically untenable to ban motorized vehicles in Manhattan, I have been surprised at just how much traffic is comprised of personal transportation. This was most starkly evident during the MTA workers strike, when all car traffic carrying fewer than 4 passengers was banned below 96th Street. This eliminated the vast majority of personal car traffic, and the streets were virtually deserted. I bet that some form of licensing for commercial vehicles combined with steep congestion pricing for non-commercial vehicles would have a dramatic effect on Manhattan traffic.
posted by slkinsey at 1:47 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't get it. Why can't the bikes just be configured to cut off the assist above 20mph?
Sure, the change in configuration might cost a few hundred, which is a lot for a delivery driver. But that seems like a legitimate business expense. Being poor is not an excuse for operating blatantly dangerous machinery, and an attempt to prevent that is not a "war" on anyone.
posted by andrewpcone at 2:46 PM on April 26, 2018
Sure, the change in configuration might cost a few hundred, which is a lot for a delivery driver. But that seems like a legitimate business expense. Being poor is not an excuse for operating blatantly dangerous machinery, and an attempt to prevent that is not a "war" on anyone.
posted by andrewpcone at 2:46 PM on April 26, 2018
The cost to speed limit ebikes is near-zero. They already have motor controllers and it's presumably a line of code.
Cops in this story aren't grabbing non-speed-limited bikes - they don't have the time to test, and they're not using radar guns to enforce. From the outside a speed limited bike and non limited bike look the same. They're just grabbing all the delivery riders they can and impounding the bikes.
posted by zippy at 3:05 PM on April 26, 2018
Cops in this story aren't grabbing non-speed-limited bikes - they don't have the time to test, and they're not using radar guns to enforce. From the outside a speed limited bike and non limited bike look the same. They're just grabbing all the delivery riders they can and impounding the bikes.
posted by zippy at 3:05 PM on April 26, 2018
I don't get it. Why can't the bikes just be configured to cut off the assist above 20mph?
They 100% can; UK law defines and licences them as motorbikes if they a) do not require pedaling to activate the assist and b) do not cut the assist at a sane speed. It's a good approach, IME.
posted by jaduncan at 3:38 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
They 100% can; UK law defines and licences them as motorbikes if they a) do not require pedaling to activate the assist and b) do not cut the assist at a sane speed. It's a good approach, IME.
posted by jaduncan at 3:38 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
It seems like the focus has been on having a crackdown, which inherently means hurting low-income predominately immigrant workers, rather than finding a workable set of rules and and specifically enforcing them. This situation has been escalating for years, and it was only this month that the law recognized pedal-assist bikes could exist. Instead of going "hey, here's this useful thing; let's figure out a plan to deal with it sensibly," all the energy went into confiscating bikes and harassing delivery workers.
There are reasonable rules to be made. A lot of them (don't ride on sidewalks, don't run people over, don't go the wrong way) already exist, and they should be enforced. Some require judgement calls (distinguishing between e-bikes and just straight-up scooters, speed limits and cut-offs, what types of vehicles should be allowed in bike lanes) that need to be worked out. Some require better infrastructure (bike lanes, safe ways for cyclists to navigate congested intersections) that's desperately needed anyway. And some norms and etiquette are required (sometimes an inherent part of living in the city is that you just need to go slower than you're physically capable of moving). But instead of working out answers to these issues as a transportation and community problem, the approach has been entirely police-focused, and given who that policing has been directed at, that's been really gross to see.
Fining workers and confiscating bikes, only for delivery workers to get them back and continue what they're doing, isn't actually doing anything to address the very real safety concerns people have shared in these threads.
On a related note, we just got 250 really spiffy GenZe pedal-assist e-bikes as part of our bikeshare system in San Francisco. The assist tops out at 18mph, and they're so awesome and fun to ride, I was just riding around for no purpose whatsoever the other day, going up steep hills because I could. I didn't even care about cars blocking bike lanes; that's how much fun I was having.
posted by zachlipton at 6:45 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
There are reasonable rules to be made. A lot of them (don't ride on sidewalks, don't run people over, don't go the wrong way) already exist, and they should be enforced. Some require judgement calls (distinguishing between e-bikes and just straight-up scooters, speed limits and cut-offs, what types of vehicles should be allowed in bike lanes) that need to be worked out. Some require better infrastructure (bike lanes, safe ways for cyclists to navigate congested intersections) that's desperately needed anyway. And some norms and etiquette are required (sometimes an inherent part of living in the city is that you just need to go slower than you're physically capable of moving). But instead of working out answers to these issues as a transportation and community problem, the approach has been entirely police-focused, and given who that policing has been directed at, that's been really gross to see.
Fining workers and confiscating bikes, only for delivery workers to get them back and continue what they're doing, isn't actually doing anything to address the very real safety concerns people have shared in these threads.
On a related note, we just got 250 really spiffy GenZe pedal-assist e-bikes as part of our bikeshare system in San Francisco. The assist tops out at 18mph, and they're so awesome and fun to ride, I was just riding around for no purpose whatsoever the other day, going up steep hills because I could. I didn't even care about cars blocking bike lanes; that's how much fun I was having.
posted by zachlipton at 6:45 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
I've got a pedal-assist ebike and test-drove a lot of them before I bought it. It is not true, in my experience, that they work "the same as ebikes with throttles minus a slight nudge to get them going": You have to supply some power at all times, or the motor disengages. Maybe some are not like that, but I tested a lot of models before buying and simply didn't see otherwise.
Mine is governed so that the motor stops helping at 20 mph, which keeps me legal for bike lanes and MUPs. Trek was selling one that was governed at 28 mph, which I'd presume keeps it street legal but illegal for MUPs and bike lanes. Keeping that thing at 21 or higher -- all 45 pounds of it with battery -- is a different story. I tried once, and it was -- not practical.
I was a regular bicycle commuter with a plain old bicycle for a few years (top mileage in our company's bike-to-work challenge one year) and got the ebike because 20 miles a day on a regular bike was taking a toll, riding transit two hours a day was killing my back, and my family didn't want to buy a second car.
I've got two routes I can take to work. One is a MUP that takes me way out of my way and adds two miles. Another is through town. The through-town route is a bit more dangerous for me but I tend to take it because it's faster and is almost all bike lanes.
I've got mixed feelings about the MUP. It's very wide, there's limited pedestrian activity on it minus a one-mile stretch where there are morning walkers and a collection of runners. There's plenty of visibility, so I can do 20mph on it pretty safely: I can see walkers far ahead and slow down for a safe approach, because pedestrians out for a fun walk are random.
I stay off a waterfront park MUP because it's chaotic and dangerous even if I'm down in a low power mode. I'd prefer bicyclists generally stay off that thing.
But that's all setup toward saying I am periodically buzzed and blown past by spandex-wearing racer wannabes who are far more aggressive, take far greater maneuvering risks, and are more actively hostile toward pedestrians than any ebike operator I've ever seen. They treat that MUP like their personal training track, and I know a lot of them by name because, you know, Strava is a cruel master.
Bicycles don't belong on sidewalks. Bicycles on MUPs are sort of iffy and I'd argue that a rider in a pedestrian/rider crash on a MUP should face some sort of aggravated charge (same as, like, "fines double in construction zone"). Bicycles operating in traffic should behave like car traffic (minus maybe lane splitting and filtering, which really seems to frustrate car people) and yield the right of way to pedestrians. I think all that stuff is codified in most places. If those rules are being broken, bicyclists need to be held to account. They generally are not (minus the periodic crackdown at problem intersections).
I wish we could get past the generalizations and blunt-force policy proposals, and also past the periodic-crackdown-then-back-to-normal indifferent policing. Congestion is only getting worse and all kinds of bicycling could offer us some relief if we did more to normalize and protect bicycling. Part of that normalization, though, will include treating all of them -- electric and non-electric -- like something that's not as dangerous as a car but still dangerous to pedestrians and other operators consistently and fairly. Otherwise, the majority will continue to have mixed feelings and treat them like the occasionally dangerous occasional nuisances they can be.
posted by mph at 7:38 PM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Mine is governed so that the motor stops helping at 20 mph, which keeps me legal for bike lanes and MUPs. Trek was selling one that was governed at 28 mph, which I'd presume keeps it street legal but illegal for MUPs and bike lanes. Keeping that thing at 21 or higher -- all 45 pounds of it with battery -- is a different story. I tried once, and it was -- not practical.
I was a regular bicycle commuter with a plain old bicycle for a few years (top mileage in our company's bike-to-work challenge one year) and got the ebike because 20 miles a day on a regular bike was taking a toll, riding transit two hours a day was killing my back, and my family didn't want to buy a second car.
I've got two routes I can take to work. One is a MUP that takes me way out of my way and adds two miles. Another is through town. The through-town route is a bit more dangerous for me but I tend to take it because it's faster and is almost all bike lanes.
I've got mixed feelings about the MUP. It's very wide, there's limited pedestrian activity on it minus a one-mile stretch where there are morning walkers and a collection of runners. There's plenty of visibility, so I can do 20mph on it pretty safely: I can see walkers far ahead and slow down for a safe approach, because pedestrians out for a fun walk are random.
I stay off a waterfront park MUP because it's chaotic and dangerous even if I'm down in a low power mode. I'd prefer bicyclists generally stay off that thing.
But that's all setup toward saying I am periodically buzzed and blown past by spandex-wearing racer wannabes who are far more aggressive, take far greater maneuvering risks, and are more actively hostile toward pedestrians than any ebike operator I've ever seen. They treat that MUP like their personal training track, and I know a lot of them by name because, you know, Strava is a cruel master.
Bicycles don't belong on sidewalks. Bicycles on MUPs are sort of iffy and I'd argue that a rider in a pedestrian/rider crash on a MUP should face some sort of aggravated charge (same as, like, "fines double in construction zone"). Bicycles operating in traffic should behave like car traffic (minus maybe lane splitting and filtering, which really seems to frustrate car people) and yield the right of way to pedestrians. I think all that stuff is codified in most places. If those rules are being broken, bicyclists need to be held to account. They generally are not (minus the periodic crackdown at problem intersections).
I wish we could get past the generalizations and blunt-force policy proposals, and also past the periodic-crackdown-then-back-to-normal indifferent policing. Congestion is only getting worse and all kinds of bicycling could offer us some relief if we did more to normalize and protect bicycling. Part of that normalization, though, will include treating all of them -- electric and non-electric -- like something that's not as dangerous as a car but still dangerous to pedestrians and other operators consistently and fairly. Otherwise, the majority will continue to have mixed feelings and treat them like the occasionally dangerous occasional nuisances they can be.
posted by mph at 7:38 PM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
When our local paved multiuse trail wasn't allowing e-bikes I asked the trail supervisor why, and he said it wasn't about top speed, the mamil-mini-peletons regularly came through at higher speeds, it was because people didn't expect them to accelerate as fast as they did and it led to collisions with pedestrians.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:20 PM on April 26, 2018
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:20 PM on April 26, 2018
My strictly pedal-powered bicycle is 20kg. The notion that e-bikes being "too heavy" at 50 pounds is absurd.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 7:11 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 7:11 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
My strictly pedal-powered bicycle is 20kg.
...did you fill the tubes with lead?
posted by jaduncan at 7:12 AM on April 27, 2018
...did you fill the tubes with lead?
posted by jaduncan at 7:12 AM on April 27, 2018
I should point out also that the e-bike ban isn't about bikes on sidewalks. New York City impounds e-bikes no matter where you ride them.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 8:04 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 8:04 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Can these ebikes maintain 20mph up a 3% grade? If so, they would be mopeds in my state, assuming they have the required FMVSS tag.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:37 AM on April 27, 2018
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:37 AM on April 27, 2018
Mine could maintain 20mph up a 3% grade, but I’d have to supply it with some power, so it wouldn’t meet that standard. All pedal assist ebikes are like that.
Throttle-controlled ebikes would meet that standard. And I meant to say earlier that they behave very differently from pedal-assist ebikes: the whole “twist and go” thing does dramatically alter how they interact with other bikes. With a pedal assist bike in “turbo” or “sport” mode, you can definitely out-accelerate bicyclists on a hybrid or cruiser and probably out-accelerate a non-determined racer, but it’s still a gentle acceleration curve and you have to make a real effort to accelerate fast.
Twist-and-go throttles are much faster off the line. At least the ones I tested are. They behave way more like a scooter. Testing them, I found that a little alarming when the throttle wasn’t smooth. I can tell when they’re in the mix in a group of riders traveling from stop-to-stop: way more acceleration on tap, and you sometimes see them careening and swerving past the pack.
I kinda feel like throttle-controlled ebikes are a bit more problematic. Maybe that’s me rationalizing my pedal-assist bike, but I generally feel like I’m part of the bike flow. I can get to speed more quickly, but with a 20 mph cap and a gentler acceleration curve, it’s hard to be aggressive among the hard-core commuter crowd flying down Clinton in close-in Portland. The speed difference is so small that passing seems dumb and aggressive, and on some downhill grades my bike’s weight and the governor keep me around 20 if I don’t want to change my effort level, which means I get passed by non-ebikes.
Oh, yeah ... sometimes racer types draft off of me. That’s sort of amusing, and happy to help, I guess, except for the ones who say shitty stuff at the stops, like “maybe you’ll work up to a real bike.” Yeah, no, I did that and 20 miles per day left me with little energy for other stuff. With an ebike, I can still work up a manageable glow and have energy for other stuff when I get home. I can also bike year-round because my rain gear doesn’t turn into a sauna and cost me extra shower/change time when I make it to the office.
This article isn’t about people like me, but there’s a lot of FUD about ebikes out there, partially because people abuse them and antagonize other bicyclists. Just providing a few notes about a less aggressive style of ebiking I started noticing once I knew what to look for that I’d guess a lot of people don’t even notice, because it’s less about maximum speed and more about just getting some help from a motor.
posted by mph at 10:57 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
Throttle-controlled ebikes would meet that standard. And I meant to say earlier that they behave very differently from pedal-assist ebikes: the whole “twist and go” thing does dramatically alter how they interact with other bikes. With a pedal assist bike in “turbo” or “sport” mode, you can definitely out-accelerate bicyclists on a hybrid or cruiser and probably out-accelerate a non-determined racer, but it’s still a gentle acceleration curve and you have to make a real effort to accelerate fast.
Twist-and-go throttles are much faster off the line. At least the ones I tested are. They behave way more like a scooter. Testing them, I found that a little alarming when the throttle wasn’t smooth. I can tell when they’re in the mix in a group of riders traveling from stop-to-stop: way more acceleration on tap, and you sometimes see them careening and swerving past the pack.
I kinda feel like throttle-controlled ebikes are a bit more problematic. Maybe that’s me rationalizing my pedal-assist bike, but I generally feel like I’m part of the bike flow. I can get to speed more quickly, but with a 20 mph cap and a gentler acceleration curve, it’s hard to be aggressive among the hard-core commuter crowd flying down Clinton in close-in Portland. The speed difference is so small that passing seems dumb and aggressive, and on some downhill grades my bike’s weight and the governor keep me around 20 if I don’t want to change my effort level, which means I get passed by non-ebikes.
Oh, yeah ... sometimes racer types draft off of me. That’s sort of amusing, and happy to help, I guess, except for the ones who say shitty stuff at the stops, like “maybe you’ll work up to a real bike.” Yeah, no, I did that and 20 miles per day left me with little energy for other stuff. With an ebike, I can still work up a manageable glow and have energy for other stuff when I get home. I can also bike year-round because my rain gear doesn’t turn into a sauna and cost me extra shower/change time when I make it to the office.
This article isn’t about people like me, but there’s a lot of FUD about ebikes out there, partially because people abuse them and antagonize other bicyclists. Just providing a few notes about a less aggressive style of ebiking I started noticing once I knew what to look for that I’d guess a lot of people don’t even notice, because it’s less about maximum speed and more about just getting some help from a motor.
posted by mph at 10:57 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
At least they're not these 80 cc two stroke engines I've seen strapped on bikes around here.
posted by scruss at 10:38 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by scruss at 10:38 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
On the other hand, e-bikes can be an honest-to-goodness menace, and I've lost count of the number of times I've had to dodge a delivery guy rushing past me going full speed on an e-bike, either on a sidewalk or blowing through an intersection, against the light, and never in a bike lane.
There should be some middle ground here. Let people register and ride e-bikes, but enforce traffic rules on them: stay in the bike lane (when there is a bike lane), ride with traffic, not against it, stop at signs and red lights, and don't ride on the sidewalk.
posted by SansPoint at 8:17 AM on April 26, 2018 [18 favorites]