pass the trash
April 27, 2018 1:24 PM Subscribe
"I’ve seen what happens when we pretend that these guys can simply disappear once they’ve been pushed out. In my experience, they resurface elsewhere, often to prey on others. That’s especially true of men who aren’t famous enough to make headlines, and whose career moves aren’t subjected to constant scrutiny. And so if we want the #MeToo movement to be about more than just which celebrity will be the next to fall, or whose comeback must be stopped — if we want it to lead to real, lasting and widespread cultural change — we need to talk. About what we do with the bad men."
I think it's a great idea to think about should be the ultimate fate of the men accused of misconduct who aren't brought up on criminal charges, and how society handles them going forward.
I also think that expecting women to do the legwork on that thinking is unfair because we've the ones who've been dealing with the fallout up to this point. Get our opinions, yeah, but then make it be someone else's problem because it's been ours for too long.
The only person who should get to say "I'm glad I don't have to think about that guy any more" about a sexual abuser are his victims.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:34 PM on April 27, 2018 [25 favorites]
I also think that expecting women to do the legwork on that thinking is unfair because we've the ones who've been dealing with the fallout up to this point. Get our opinions, yeah, but then make it be someone else's problem because it's been ours for too long.
The only person who should get to say "I'm glad I don't have to think about that guy any more" about a sexual abuser are his victims.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:34 PM on April 27, 2018 [25 favorites]
No this one is easy
Blacklist them until they’ve suffered losses equal to what they cost their victims in time, energy, dreams deferred. As far as harm prevention: there is literally nothing that a man with decades of sexual abuse in his past can do to become safe enough for women. Nothing. He is done. He has proved himself to be a danger. He no longer gets to freely participate in society.
Why is this so hard?
posted by schadenfrau at 1:55 PM on April 27, 2018 [65 favorites]
Blacklist them until they’ve suffered losses equal to what they cost their victims in time, energy, dreams deferred. As far as harm prevention: there is literally nothing that a man with decades of sexual abuse in his past can do to become safe enough for women. Nothing. He is done. He has proved himself to be a danger. He no longer gets to freely participate in society.
Why is this so hard?
posted by schadenfrau at 1:55 PM on April 27, 2018 [65 favorites]
Isn’t it nice how society doesn’t see blacklisting drug dealers as particularly problematic, but all of the sudden it’s dangerous when rapists face even minimal constraints?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 2:02 PM on April 27, 2018 [110 favorites]
posted by steady-state strawberry at 2:02 PM on April 27, 2018 [110 favorites]
Heaven forbid they choose to learn from their experiences and move forward treating women and girls like human beings. It's not rocket surgery, fellas.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:03 PM on April 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:03 PM on April 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
A program run by men helping other men to learn how to not be assholes and integrate with society seems like a great idea.
oh this ties in nicely with the Kimmel/Wade thread where, if I'm not mistaken, we're thiiiiiis close to having the outlines of such a program all figured out
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:21 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
oh this ties in nicely with the Kimmel/Wade thread where, if I'm not mistaken, we're thiiiiiis close to having the outlines of such a program all figured out
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:21 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
A program run by men helping other men to learn how to not be assholes and integrate with society seems like a great idea.
My partner's dad did this, a mentorship program for men coming out of prison. Basically, how to live on the outside without hurting yourself or other people. It's hard to imagine but a lot of men literally have no idea how to do this, no access to anyone who can show them how, and nobody around who can reinforce the behaviours they've learned.
Of course there are plenty of men who don't necessarily have that excuse.
posted by klanawa at 2:22 PM on April 27, 2018 [24 favorites]
My partner's dad did this, a mentorship program for men coming out of prison. Basically, how to live on the outside without hurting yourself or other people. It's hard to imagine but a lot of men literally have no idea how to do this, no access to anyone who can show them how, and nobody around who can reinforce the behaviours they've learned.
Of course there are plenty of men who don't necessarily have that excuse.
posted by klanawa at 2:22 PM on April 27, 2018 [24 favorites]
I see no problem with firing them, blackballing them from their industry, and forcing them to start over from scratch in a new field such that they never recover economically and have to scrape by for the rest of their lives. This is exactly how victims are treated when they report perpetrators.
No, I don’t see why it would make things “worse”. Worse than what, exactly? Well, they would be shut out from nearly all avenues of success and, no matter how hard they proved themselves, would always be treated with suspicion and the assumption that they would be disruptive in any work environment.
So basically they would have the same challenges that women, people of color, and other minorities already have, except they would actually have earned their reputation for being a problem instead of having it bestowed upon them for fitting a stereotype.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:24 PM on April 27, 2018 [67 favorites]
No, I don’t see why it would make things “worse”. Worse than what, exactly? Well, they would be shut out from nearly all avenues of success and, no matter how hard they proved themselves, would always be treated with suspicion and the assumption that they would be disruptive in any work environment.
So basically they would have the same challenges that women, people of color, and other minorities already have, except they would actually have earned their reputation for being a problem instead of having it bestowed upon them for fitting a stereotype.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:24 PM on April 27, 2018 [67 favorites]
Gee, I dunno. Maybe they could just sleep alone on their piles of money and leave the rest of the world the fuck alone? Goddamn what's complicated about this? The people who've been "taken down" by the metoo movement by and large just lost their popular jobs and standing. That's fucking it. Booo hoooo.
I totally agree, but I think this piece is more about the ones without piles of money/popular jobs:
But that didn’t mean students and professors vanished once exiled. Instead, I watched institution after institution simply “pass the trash” — a term for what happens when schools let reportedly abusive faculty flee elsewhere, without alerting their new employers to the allegations against them. Teachers quietly moved from high school to high school; professors covertly transferred colleges. I watched the same dynamics play out among students when I reported on a college admissions consultant who helped expelled young men put what she called their “best spin” on misconduct allegations so they could go back to school, their new classmates none the wiser. Readers were horrified: one campus activist, Abby Woodhouse, wrote an open letter in response, describing the relief she felt when her own college assailant was expelled.
“This man would not be able to harm me again, ever,” Woodhouse wrote. “I did not know what would happen to him, but I knew that it would no longer be any of my concern.” Ultimately, she concluded, “my rapist is not my responsibility.” A more than fair point. But then whose responsibility is he?
posted by everybody had matching towels at 2:29 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I totally agree, but I think this piece is more about the ones without piles of money/popular jobs:
But that didn’t mean students and professors vanished once exiled. Instead, I watched institution after institution simply “pass the trash” — a term for what happens when schools let reportedly abusive faculty flee elsewhere, without alerting their new employers to the allegations against them. Teachers quietly moved from high school to high school; professors covertly transferred colleges. I watched the same dynamics play out among students when I reported on a college admissions consultant who helped expelled young men put what she called their “best spin” on misconduct allegations so they could go back to school, their new classmates none the wiser. Readers were horrified: one campus activist, Abby Woodhouse, wrote an open letter in response, describing the relief she felt when her own college assailant was expelled.
“This man would not be able to harm me again, ever,” Woodhouse wrote. “I did not know what would happen to him, but I knew that it would no longer be any of my concern.” Ultimately, she concluded, “my rapist is not my responsibility.” A more than fair point. But then whose responsibility is he?
posted by everybody had matching towels at 2:29 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
The author misses the key point - the first step of restorative justice must be contrition. Before any attempt at reconciliation or restoration can be taken, the person involved must show true and genuine contrition for their actions. What this means is that:
* they must accept responsibility for their actions. This means that they must accept that the actions that lead to their ostracization were theirs, done of their own will.
* they must accept that those actions caused genuine harm to their victim(s). They need to acknowledge that they have harmed people through these actions.
* they must accept that they have broken trust with society because of the above. Their own willful actions and the harm caused are why society can no longer trust them.
* finally, they must acknowledge that the obligation is upon them, not society, to mend those bridges. Furthermore, they must also accept that full or even partial restoration may be impossible.
Then, and only then, can restoration begin. The problem I see is not with people displaced, but with people unwilling to accept the above, and then blaming others for the understandable response of "then you can never be trusted again."
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:40 PM on April 27, 2018 [103 favorites]
* they must accept responsibility for their actions. This means that they must accept that the actions that lead to their ostracization were theirs, done of their own will.
* they must accept that those actions caused genuine harm to their victim(s). They need to acknowledge that they have harmed people through these actions.
* they must accept that they have broken trust with society because of the above. Their own willful actions and the harm caused are why society can no longer trust them.
* finally, they must acknowledge that the obligation is upon them, not society, to mend those bridges. Furthermore, they must also accept that full or even partial restoration may be impossible.
Then, and only then, can restoration begin. The problem I see is not with people displaced, but with people unwilling to accept the above, and then blaming others for the understandable response of "then you can never be trusted again."
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:40 PM on April 27, 2018 [103 favorites]
i read an article where the author interviewed the man who had sexually assaulted her years earlier. he was ostracized, and the author brings up that she worried he might have gone on to reoffend. but some other men in his scene actually did tell him he needed to educate himself about consent, and apparently he actually did. this seems like about the least bad possible scenario.
posted by vogon_poet at 2:41 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by vogon_poet at 2:41 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
People are rightly appalled at the Catholic Church’s adoption of similar practices.
I believe the appropriate response is “no one.”
These men are adults.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 2:45 PM on April 27, 2018
I believe the appropriate response is “no one.”
These men are adults.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 2:45 PM on April 27, 2018
Let’s say half their careers so far. So Louis C.K. can book a show without everyone involved being an asshole in about 2032-ish. Until then, he can keep his head down and hope to avoid prosecution. Or, you know, he can plead guilty to all counts and do his time.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:54 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:54 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I see no problem with firing them, blackballing them from their industry, and forcing them to start over from scratch in a new field such that they never recover economically and have to scrape by for the rest of their lives.
really? how in the world do you propose it be enforced? the legal system? if i want to hire a salesman who was fired for sexual harassment 10 years ago, should i be stopped?
even if crimes are committed, isn't it part of the system that people do their time and then are free to start over with their lives (unless those crimes are so severe they should not be released?)
the whole point is that offering a place in society isn't up to you or me or a certain group of people - it's up to anyone who has a job or other place they can offer someone - and how do you stop them from doing so?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:07 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
really? how in the world do you propose it be enforced? the legal system? if i want to hire a salesman who was fired for sexual harassment 10 years ago, should i be stopped?
even if crimes are committed, isn't it part of the system that people do their time and then are free to start over with their lives (unless those crimes are so severe they should not be released?)
the whole point is that offering a place in society isn't up to you or me or a certain group of people - it's up to anyone who has a job or other place they can offer someone - and how do you stop them from doing so?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:07 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean, if we need a metric.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:07 PM on April 27, 2018
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:07 PM on April 27, 2018
even if crimes are committed, isn't it part of the system that people do their time and then are free to start over with their lives (unless those crimes are so severe they should not be released?)
That's a nice ideal. How does it apply to the people who have been harassed and assaulted and who wind up dealing with PTSD and aftereffects for the rest of their lives? Why are you prioritizing the wellbeing of somebody who chose to victimize another person over the wellbeing of the person they victimized?
posted by Lexica at 3:14 PM on April 27, 2018 [24 favorites]
That's a nice ideal. How does it apply to the people who have been harassed and assaulted and who wind up dealing with PTSD and aftereffects for the rest of their lives? Why are you prioritizing the wellbeing of somebody who chose to victimize another person over the wellbeing of the person they victimized?
posted by Lexica at 3:14 PM on April 27, 2018 [24 favorites]
a place in society isn't up to you or me or a certain group of people - it's up to anyone
True by definition, so ... (thinking out loud) If the accusations and evidence are never secret, then on average the harassers are going to receive the average social opinion of harassment, accusations, evidence. Which could come out to ostracism, if harassees and their allies boycott harassers and their employers; or could come out to a benefit for them, if pro-harassment factions have more power. And the accusers probably couldn't be kept anonymous, even if we thought that was a fair tradeoff, so they face additional risk.
I sometimes think the difference between a conservative and a liberal right now is that a liberal assumes rape leaves a moral stain on the rapist, and conservatives still think it leaves a stain on the victim. This would depress me more if I weren't pretty sure it was getting better from an abysmal historical norm.
posted by clew at 3:20 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
True by definition, so ... (thinking out loud) If the accusations and evidence are never secret, then on average the harassers are going to receive the average social opinion of harassment, accusations, evidence. Which could come out to ostracism, if harassees and their allies boycott harassers and their employers; or could come out to a benefit for them, if pro-harassment factions have more power. And the accusers probably couldn't be kept anonymous, even if we thought that was a fair tradeoff, so they face additional risk.
I sometimes think the difference between a conservative and a liberal right now is that a liberal assumes rape leaves a moral stain on the rapist, and conservatives still think it leaves a stain on the victim. This would depress me more if I weren't pretty sure it was getting better from an abysmal historical norm.
posted by clew at 3:20 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Why are you prioritizing the wellbeing of somebody who chose to victimize another person over the wellbeing of the person they victimized?
i'm not - i'm asking how a proposed system blackballing people from industries and forcing them to start over from scratch is going to work and how we're going to enforce it if some decide to hire these people anyway
less heated accusations and more answers would be a good start
posted by pyramid termite at 3:22 PM on April 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
i'm not - i'm asking how a proposed system blackballing people from industries and forcing them to start over from scratch is going to work and how we're going to enforce it if some decide to hire these people anyway
less heated accusations and more answers would be a good start
posted by pyramid termite at 3:22 PM on April 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
Ship them to another continent, oh darn, wrong century. (Mars?)
posted by sammyo at 5:25 PM on April 27, 2018
posted by sammyo at 5:25 PM on April 27, 2018
But then whose responsibility is he?
His own?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:36 PM on April 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
His own?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:36 PM on April 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
I had a manager who had all three prongs of the dark triad. He generally presented as friendly and funny, even a feminist. He had all the NPR talking points, and all the tech ones too. He established direct and deep relationships with most people (in a totally above-board way), and then, once he had a person’s trust and good-will, he figured out how to use that against them to his own ends. (If he couldn’t get someone to trust him, he would instead use the avoid-and-discredit tactic.) I talked to so many coworkers who confided to me that although they personally liked him, he made them feel deficient. Eventually, this would make them want to leave the company, but before that it would make them do things like working evenings and weekends to prove their worth.
He had a real talent for keeping direct heat off himself, constantly gaslighting everyone else. He certainly did a number on me as well. I don’t want to go into great detail, so I don’t know how well I’m conveying the situation, but basically everyone had a story they would quietly admit to sometimes, of when their respectful professional working relationship with this guy broke down, and everyone felt it was their own personal fault for not being able to get along with him. It never crossed into #metoo territory because he got his kicks in a different way, but he was the nonetheless workplace trash.
Upper management was aware that he was a problem, most notable in his occasional outbursts in the office (when other manipulative tactics had failed) but dragged heels for years and years on dismissing him, because his tactics got results out of people. He was pretty open about discussing his personal views on his non-traditional working style (he saw himself more as rebelling against straight-laced HR than being a real workplace problem) and stated that he would not change his ways, because he knew that even if he got fired, he could spin it and pretty quickly find a new company. A new company that would not only look the other way on his harsh tactics, but financially reward him for them.
It makes me sick to think that he’s going to be out there in the working world for another few decades, doing psychological numbers on untold more victims. And each one of them will probably start out feeling that they brought the treatment upon themselves by not being capable enough.
posted by mantecol at 5:49 PM on April 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
He had a real talent for keeping direct heat off himself, constantly gaslighting everyone else. He certainly did a number on me as well. I don’t want to go into great detail, so I don’t know how well I’m conveying the situation, but basically everyone had a story they would quietly admit to sometimes, of when their respectful professional working relationship with this guy broke down, and everyone felt it was their own personal fault for not being able to get along with him. It never crossed into #metoo territory because he got his kicks in a different way, but he was the nonetheless workplace trash.
Upper management was aware that he was a problem, most notable in his occasional outbursts in the office (when other manipulative tactics had failed) but dragged heels for years and years on dismissing him, because his tactics got results out of people. He was pretty open about discussing his personal views on his non-traditional working style (he saw himself more as rebelling against straight-laced HR than being a real workplace problem) and stated that he would not change his ways, because he knew that even if he got fired, he could spin it and pretty quickly find a new company. A new company that would not only look the other way on his harsh tactics, but financially reward him for them.
It makes me sick to think that he’s going to be out there in the working world for another few decades, doing psychological numbers on untold more victims. And each one of them will probably start out feeling that they brought the treatment upon themselves by not being capable enough.
posted by mantecol at 5:49 PM on April 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
Ship them to another continent, oh darn, wrong century. (Mars?)
Asshole Island? Have to be a BIG island though...
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on April 27, 2018
Asshole Island? Have to be a BIG island though...
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on April 27, 2018
I don't claim to have a solution here. I think it's genuinely a hard problem and maybe there isn't a perfect solution. I do think that NoxAeternum has a key point though: restorative justice is only possible when people genuinely accept that they've done wrong and are genuinely contrite. Otherwise it's just the old "slap on the wrist and off you go" that sexual offenders have always gotten, when indeed they are punished at all.
I will say though that consistent consequences would solve a lot of this. For instance, if men who committed sexual harassment in the workplace consistently lost their jobs over it rather than usually getting away with it for a very long time and possibly forever, instances of sexual harassment in the workplace would drop sharply. As things currently stand, men know that they'll generally get away with workplace sexual harassment and that even if they face consequences once they'll probably still be able to get away with it elsewhere. If it were common knowledge that harassment led to a quick firing, it wouldn't be nearly so much of a problem to begin with.
Some of this can be solved by just making men consistently face consequences in the first place, rather than only occasionally, and only after a long period of seeming impunity.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:08 PM on April 27, 2018 [45 favorites]
I will say though that consistent consequences would solve a lot of this. For instance, if men who committed sexual harassment in the workplace consistently lost their jobs over it rather than usually getting away with it for a very long time and possibly forever, instances of sexual harassment in the workplace would drop sharply. As things currently stand, men know that they'll generally get away with workplace sexual harassment and that even if they face consequences once they'll probably still be able to get away with it elsewhere. If it were common knowledge that harassment led to a quick firing, it wouldn't be nearly so much of a problem to begin with.
Some of this can be solved by just making men consistently face consequences in the first place, rather than only occasionally, and only after a long period of seeming impunity.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:08 PM on April 27, 2018 [45 favorites]
His own?
That sounds nice, but he's the guy who was harassing or abusing others in the first place, so having him manage his own behavior doesn't appear to be an effective tactic.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 9:11 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
That sounds nice, but he's the guy who was harassing or abusing others in the first place, so having him manage his own behavior doesn't appear to be an effective tactic.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 9:11 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
ARGH. Ok, freshman feminism 101 mode engage. Bear with me here, but I think these are productive thoughts and I'd love input.
So I was thinking on stuff after a visit from a friend yesterday. This particular friend is a young woman, a model, who just went through a rather intense breakup (her decision) and moved back to her hometown with a years-long and very supportive boyfriend. Well, it was an all sit around and talk sushi and plum wine and video games therapy session, and life stories came out. She ran away from home and got into the industry at 14, started dating and lost her virginity at 16 to a man who was 28, then shifted to a 32-year old at 17...and now she's 22, and the guy she just left is 34 now. I met her when she was 18, she moved away to be with him, just moved back. She told me that now, finally, she recognizes the first few men she started dating were, in her terms, "predators". I heartily agree. The last ex is most definitely not a predator, but there is that age & maturity gap, and we talked frankly about that, but...well, there's a reason it's over. She's young, but she ain't dumb, life has a learning curve, and my opinion ends there.
The thing is, as life stories came out, she got into how, ok, here we have a teenage runaway (although she was smart enough to hide that from her clients and agent) being judged, daily, on her body. She told me how people talked bluntly about how her physical dimensions satisfied their requirements or not, and how that impacted her view of herself, and how her view of herself impacted her views on relationships. Now, this being a story that takes place in China, you have to realize there's not a lot of background feminist radiation. There's some, but when I said the phrase "male gaze", girl's jaw hit the floor. "Yes, that's exactly it! It messed with my head!" Straight up a model who hasn't heard the phrase "male gaze", like whoa. We got into a digression about it, and the conclusion was "yeah it's fucked up that the male gaze dictates so much of the fashion industry, and you're damn right it'll fuck you up, but what are you gonna do, it's fashion, you just get by as best you can, make your money, and go home, you're already doing pretty well if you're fending off the pervs, it's not your job to change the world, it's the pervs' job to not be shitty". This is where our story plugs into this comment, and the thing I've been thinking about all morning.
We already have all the evidence we need that the pervs are gonna perv. No, I didn't just say gender essentialism, but I did say humans in 2018 on Earth. So here we are. Age of #metoo. Feminism had all the waves. The first wave was all "yo we're people too". Second wave was all "patriarchy is a big fucking problem and we have to be hardcore". Third wave was all "yo, hardcore second-wave people, women are human and this shit is exhausting can't we just learn to live with the men in peace? Mostly live in peace, they're people too, but they gotta knock that crap off!".
And, um, here we are. Trump, Cosby, and FFS, Al Franken (who frankly, I think deserved a scolding but not to quit), and plenty more to boot. Of course, I'm a white heteronormal male, not my call y'all. I know, I have opinions, they're probably completely wrong, the point is it's not my judgment to make! Oh and we have Black Lives Matter, AND we have Blue Lives Matter. WTF. I mean we're having this conversation about entrenched, systemic power and all the ways it messes up people's lives. "Enthusiastic consent" is a concept that happened, that's cool, I'd class that with third wave feminism, but again, I'm just a straight white guy who spends more time on being in the moment than being a scholar of this stuff, so what do I know? And now, I mean, these "victims" of #metoo are trying to make a comeback.
Well shit. If they make a comeback, then we're right back where we were in second-wave feminism. If we punish them forever, then third-wave feminism is wrong and we all live in second-wave hell forever. Plus, it's been fricken 35 years since third-wave really kicked off, not to mention second-wave. Third-wave feminism is old enough to be president, and I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it to give a satisfactory answer to how to rehabilitate the men #metoo dethroned. Cosby got convicted of how many crimes, after actually committing how many crimes? I mean c'mon, that shit ain't right. The people who Cosby fucked over need vindication.
CONUNDRUM.
Y'all, I posit something. Fashion hasn't escaped the male gaze. It just hasn't, I've dated and known so many people in the industry and it's just...no. I'm glad that history is finally at a moment where we're having an honest conversation about entrenched power, but FFS all of history and fashion about it is status and the male gaze. STILL A CONUNDRUM. We'd have to go back to prehistory, if it's even there, to find a point where fashion and what people wear is not dominated by "do men think that looks sexy on women, sexy as mediated by men seeking status over other men." (I said freshmen feminism 101 now go away about my lack of knowledge the lack of knowledge is the whole point of this comment I need help)
Y'all, I posit more. Feminism hasn't escaped patriarchal oppression. I posit that feminism can imagine fundamental rights for both women and men, but it can't imagine what that looks like in a mature society. Feminism needs a fourth wave y'all. Or maybe a fifth wave, because there is a thing called fourth wave, but it doesn't imagine a future, it just imagines how men should stop being assholes. Second-wave did that too, third-wave did that plus imagine that women can be tired of this shit and not want to solve problems that men should solve on their own, and the so-called fourth wave seems to be saying, "No really, guys, fucking figure your shit out already".
It's time for us to really imagine a world where men and women are equals. Where sexual desire is a thing that can occur anytime and anywhere but which can be subdued or consented to anytime and anywhere, where resentment and abuse have real consequences and solutions, where everyone's gender-specific needs are known by every child walking down the street. Do you think sex ed stops at "here's how to prevent pregnancy + you can have sexytime with who you want?" NOPE. Period pain is real y'all. It's possible for men to orgasm multiple times a day. Trans people need to take a mix of hormones during the transition and some fruits have some and some vegetables have others and we have to synthesize the rest but some are also in meat, and many people are vegetarian. Polyamory exists but emotional and psychological abuse exists too. Point me to the sex ed class that handles all that shit! You can't! It doesn't exist! We're not even arguing for it let alone funding it as a public good!
Rehabilitation for sexual abuse/harassment perpetrators? How about for victims? Maybe we have to start from the position of imagining what to do with this men, but no folks, we have to imagine what to do with all of us before we will get back to these powerful men. It's time for a new wave of feminism, it's time for a new understanding and examination of sexuality and what it means to all of us, and it's time to really face how our culture and every culture deals with reproduction and sexual politics. FFS we're gonna have sex robots soon, and then maybe a singularity. Feminism, as it exists, isn't answering these questions, neither is any other philosophy.
There will be people who say I'm asking for ponies, and you're right. In 2018, I am asking for ponies. But it's time we start. This is a festering wound on the identity and health of our species, and it's time to address it. I don't have answers, but I have energy and money and time, and I'm gonna be thinking in these terms from now on, and I'm gonna start putting ideas together and speaking my mind. I welcome criticism and correction, but god damn, it's all the same thing, and it's time we had a philosophy and ethical system that really addresses it.
I want a real fourth wave.
posted by saysthis at 9:12 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
So I was thinking on stuff after a visit from a friend yesterday. This particular friend is a young woman, a model, who just went through a rather intense breakup (her decision) and moved back to her hometown with a years-long and very supportive boyfriend. Well, it was an all sit around and talk sushi and plum wine and video games therapy session, and life stories came out. She ran away from home and got into the industry at 14, started dating and lost her virginity at 16 to a man who was 28, then shifted to a 32-year old at 17...and now she's 22, and the guy she just left is 34 now. I met her when she was 18, she moved away to be with him, just moved back. She told me that now, finally, she recognizes the first few men she started dating were, in her terms, "predators". I heartily agree. The last ex is most definitely not a predator, but there is that age & maturity gap, and we talked frankly about that, but...well, there's a reason it's over. She's young, but she ain't dumb, life has a learning curve, and my opinion ends there.
The thing is, as life stories came out, she got into how, ok, here we have a teenage runaway (although she was smart enough to hide that from her clients and agent) being judged, daily, on her body. She told me how people talked bluntly about how her physical dimensions satisfied their requirements or not, and how that impacted her view of herself, and how her view of herself impacted her views on relationships. Now, this being a story that takes place in China, you have to realize there's not a lot of background feminist radiation. There's some, but when I said the phrase "male gaze", girl's jaw hit the floor. "Yes, that's exactly it! It messed with my head!" Straight up a model who hasn't heard the phrase "male gaze", like whoa. We got into a digression about it, and the conclusion was "yeah it's fucked up that the male gaze dictates so much of the fashion industry, and you're damn right it'll fuck you up, but what are you gonna do, it's fashion, you just get by as best you can, make your money, and go home, you're already doing pretty well if you're fending off the pervs, it's not your job to change the world, it's the pervs' job to not be shitty". This is where our story plugs into this comment, and the thing I've been thinking about all morning.
We already have all the evidence we need that the pervs are gonna perv. No, I didn't just say gender essentialism, but I did say humans in 2018 on Earth. So here we are. Age of #metoo. Feminism had all the waves. The first wave was all "yo we're people too". Second wave was all "patriarchy is a big fucking problem and we have to be hardcore". Third wave was all "yo, hardcore second-wave people, women are human and this shit is exhausting can't we just learn to live with the men in peace? Mostly live in peace, they're people too, but they gotta knock that crap off!".
And, um, here we are. Trump, Cosby, and FFS, Al Franken (who frankly, I think deserved a scolding but not to quit), and plenty more to boot. Of course, I'm a white heteronormal male, not my call y'all. I know, I have opinions, they're probably completely wrong, the point is it's not my judgment to make! Oh and we have Black Lives Matter, AND we have Blue Lives Matter. WTF. I mean we're having this conversation about entrenched, systemic power and all the ways it messes up people's lives. "Enthusiastic consent" is a concept that happened, that's cool, I'd class that with third wave feminism, but again, I'm just a straight white guy who spends more time on being in the moment than being a scholar of this stuff, so what do I know? And now, I mean, these "victims" of #metoo are trying to make a comeback.
Well shit. If they make a comeback, then we're right back where we were in second-wave feminism. If we punish them forever, then third-wave feminism is wrong and we all live in second-wave hell forever. Plus, it's been fricken 35 years since third-wave really kicked off, not to mention second-wave. Third-wave feminism is old enough to be president, and I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it to give a satisfactory answer to how to rehabilitate the men #metoo dethroned. Cosby got convicted of how many crimes, after actually committing how many crimes? I mean c'mon, that shit ain't right. The people who Cosby fucked over need vindication.
CONUNDRUM.
Y'all, I posit something. Fashion hasn't escaped the male gaze. It just hasn't, I've dated and known so many people in the industry and it's just...no. I'm glad that history is finally at a moment where we're having an honest conversation about entrenched power, but FFS all of history and fashion about it is status and the male gaze. STILL A CONUNDRUM. We'd have to go back to prehistory, if it's even there, to find a point where fashion and what people wear is not dominated by "do men think that looks sexy on women, sexy as mediated by men seeking status over other men." (I said freshmen feminism 101 now go away about my lack of knowledge the lack of knowledge is the whole point of this comment I need help)
Y'all, I posit more. Feminism hasn't escaped patriarchal oppression. I posit that feminism can imagine fundamental rights for both women and men, but it can't imagine what that looks like in a mature society. Feminism needs a fourth wave y'all. Or maybe a fifth wave, because there is a thing called fourth wave, but it doesn't imagine a future, it just imagines how men should stop being assholes. Second-wave did that too, third-wave did that plus imagine that women can be tired of this shit and not want to solve problems that men should solve on their own, and the so-called fourth wave seems to be saying, "No really, guys, fucking figure your shit out already".
It's time for us to really imagine a world where men and women are equals. Where sexual desire is a thing that can occur anytime and anywhere but which can be subdued or consented to anytime and anywhere, where resentment and abuse have real consequences and solutions, where everyone's gender-specific needs are known by every child walking down the street. Do you think sex ed stops at "here's how to prevent pregnancy + you can have sexytime with who you want?" NOPE. Period pain is real y'all. It's possible for men to orgasm multiple times a day. Trans people need to take a mix of hormones during the transition and some fruits have some and some vegetables have others and we have to synthesize the rest but some are also in meat, and many people are vegetarian. Polyamory exists but emotional and psychological abuse exists too. Point me to the sex ed class that handles all that shit! You can't! It doesn't exist! We're not even arguing for it let alone funding it as a public good!
Rehabilitation for sexual abuse/harassment perpetrators? How about for victims? Maybe we have to start from the position of imagining what to do with this men, but no folks, we have to imagine what to do with all of us before we will get back to these powerful men. It's time for a new wave of feminism, it's time for a new understanding and examination of sexuality and what it means to all of us, and it's time to really face how our culture and every culture deals with reproduction and sexual politics. FFS we're gonna have sex robots soon, and then maybe a singularity. Feminism, as it exists, isn't answering these questions, neither is any other philosophy.
There will be people who say I'm asking for ponies, and you're right. In 2018, I am asking for ponies. But it's time we start. This is a festering wound on the identity and health of our species, and it's time to address it. I don't have answers, but I have energy and money and time, and I'm gonna be thinking in these terms from now on, and I'm gonna start putting ideas together and speaking my mind. I welcome criticism and correction, but god damn, it's all the same thing, and it's time we had a philosophy and ethical system that really addresses it.
I want a real fourth wave.
posted by saysthis at 9:12 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Lexica and Ignorantsavage, make your points without coming at each other.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:41 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:41 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also I want to say this. I want a new wave of feminism, not of burdens on women...or trans or gay or whatever group. This stuff is flexible and I don't even know what term is appropriate. It has changed multiple times over the last 30 years and probably will again.
The point is to say that I think a lot of us are ready to fight for a world where gender identity, sexual frequency, really just anything to do with your reproductive and sexual choices doesn't get fucked with by other people. We don't have a cohesive statement yet, and we need one, badly. It's not just about the US, it's about the rest of the world, where Islam asks women to wear a hijab (but only sometimes) and abstinence-only education is still a viable platform for Republicans/Protestants/Catholics and communist/socialist countries variously incentivize or disincentivize reproductive rights and what is even going on in India, and then atheists generally say some bullshit about free speech and body rights and ignore the power structure.
Seriously this is a hard problem. But it's time to address it. It's time for the philosophy to be there, if not the actual laws. I can imagine a certain world. I can imagine a world where there are hard taboos on asking gender preferences at a job interview but loose taboos if you ask at a bar (maybe it's a weed bar because alcohol is banned; maybe alcohol is only for the rich who can afford regular synthetic liver transplants). I can imagine a world where, hell, sometimes 5 polyamorous people have a 5-way on the street, and if you're a respectful person, you step around them, and where if you do stop and stare, an alarm goes off in a police station somewhere, and you get a bleep on your phone where the people you're voyeuring have to consent before your loin-zapping implant unlocks. Maybe that's a voluntary implant and the people who don't get it live in a separate part of town. I DON'T KNOW!
The point is I'm not doing this right. My imagination has limits and it's time we all started thinking about what a really just world for reproduction and all associated with it looks like.
Apologies again if I'm being stupid. But god only knows, as a species, we're in the stone ages on this issue. We do need to go there and we do need to have the debate.
posted by saysthis at 9:50 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
The point is to say that I think a lot of us are ready to fight for a world where gender identity, sexual frequency, really just anything to do with your reproductive and sexual choices doesn't get fucked with by other people. We don't have a cohesive statement yet, and we need one, badly. It's not just about the US, it's about the rest of the world, where Islam asks women to wear a hijab (but only sometimes) and abstinence-only education is still a viable platform for Republicans/Protestants/Catholics and communist/socialist countries variously incentivize or disincentivize reproductive rights and what is even going on in India, and then atheists generally say some bullshit about free speech and body rights and ignore the power structure.
Seriously this is a hard problem. But it's time to address it. It's time for the philosophy to be there, if not the actual laws. I can imagine a certain world. I can imagine a world where there are hard taboos on asking gender preferences at a job interview but loose taboos if you ask at a bar (maybe it's a weed bar because alcohol is banned; maybe alcohol is only for the rich who can afford regular synthetic liver transplants). I can imagine a world where, hell, sometimes 5 polyamorous people have a 5-way on the street, and if you're a respectful person, you step around them, and where if you do stop and stare, an alarm goes off in a police station somewhere, and you get a bleep on your phone where the people you're voyeuring have to consent before your loin-zapping implant unlocks. Maybe that's a voluntary implant and the people who don't get it live in a separate part of town. I DON'T KNOW!
The point is I'm not doing this right. My imagination has limits and it's time we all started thinking about what a really just world for reproduction and all associated with it looks like.
Apologies again if I'm being stupid. But god only knows, as a species, we're in the stone ages on this issue. We do need to go there and we do need to have the debate.
posted by saysthis at 9:50 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am happy for all rehabilitation options to start with contrition: Guy must acknowledge that he caused harm, in a way that indicates he knows how and what kind of harm he caused, and dedicate himself to not causing that kind of harm in the future before he gets any support whatsoever.
As far as I can tell, the guys looking for "a second chance" aren't saying, "omg, I hurt so many women... please tell me how to be a functioning, valuable person in society with that in my past," but "hey, I used to be rich and famous, and then there was this legal thing withthat bitch some feminazi types, and they cost me my job and such, but... that was then; this is now; how do I get back to the rich and famous part?"
And um. FUCK NO. Zero rehab/assistance support for nonrepentant rapists, harassers, molesters, and trolls.
We can discuss how Al Franken can have a future even if he can't get elected - he's an articulate speaker with a keen understanding of law and media dynamics, and I want him working for a better world. Louis CK can flounder with making selfie vids.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:01 PM on April 27, 2018 [18 favorites]
As far as I can tell, the guys looking for "a second chance" aren't saying, "omg, I hurt so many women... please tell me how to be a functioning, valuable person in society with that in my past," but "hey, I used to be rich and famous, and then there was this legal thing with
And um. FUCK NO. Zero rehab/assistance support for nonrepentant rapists, harassers, molesters, and trolls.
We can discuss how Al Franken can have a future even if he can't get elected - he's an articulate speaker with a keen understanding of law and media dynamics, and I want him working for a better world. Louis CK can flounder with making selfie vids.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:01 PM on April 27, 2018 [18 favorites]
I think the largest problem with this is that around 30% of the population do not seem any real harm committed and about 60% of the population would balk at long-term consequences.
#NotAllMen is the barrier to any meaningful consequences for male sexual preadators and #NoReallyAllMen is about as popular as Trump.
So how to you enact change which the majority probably don't want, because lets face it, the patriarchy infects it all and consequences for men are seen as more significant than for their victims. How exactly do you smash the patriarchy?
First you establish a series of democratically elected women's councils?
But for now? For this time?
Add them to the sexual offenders register.
The first objection will be that it means men could be falsely accused and have their lives ruined with no consequences for the accuser.
To which I believe the response is "welcome to our world"
posted by fullerine at 10:23 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
#NotAllMen is the barrier to any meaningful consequences for male sexual preadators and #NoReallyAllMen is about as popular as Trump.
So how to you enact change which the majority probably don't want, because lets face it, the patriarchy infects it all and consequences for men are seen as more significant than for their victims. How exactly do you smash the patriarchy?
First you establish a series of democratically elected women's councils?
But for now? For this time?
Add them to the sexual offenders register.
The first objection will be that it means men could be falsely accused and have their lives ruined with no consequences for the accuser.
To which I believe the response is "welcome to our world"
posted by fullerine at 10:23 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Louis CK can flounder with making selfie vids.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:01 PM on April 28 [+] [!]
I agree with literally (it's text I can adverb like that) everything you said, but in the spirit of dumb contrarianism, you do realize Youtube monetizes things, and Louis CK just gonna get famous again like that, right? Franken is past his sell-by date. Dude will die comfortable but not rich. CK, I'm not so sure.
These people will get a second chance until there is a net to stop them and redirect them. No we can't murder them but seriously I would rather puke on my laptop than see Louis CK again, and that has everything to do with the fact that he's f**king yelly Seinfeld and very little to do with the fact that he's Gropey McNoTicketMaster. They're both funny but they're both also creepy fuckers in a way that given how I know young models too and...could do that thing but I don't...that I am not. I'm claiming credit for it because that power imbalance, including a dose of celebrity, is a thing in my life and I am refusing to take advantage because I know what it means. But I learned that through commitment and experience and the privilege to have that in the first place.
This is hard. We need a better way to talk about this and I don't have it. Nevermind that it looks like I'm fishing for credit, even if I'm doing that (who knows? I know, I'm not, I think), we need a better way to talk about this! I said "male gaze" to a model and she didn't know. What. the. fuck.
Also I'm drunk. I'm done now.
posted by saysthis at 10:38 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:01 PM on April 28 [+] [!]
I agree with literally (it's text I can adverb like that) everything you said, but in the spirit of dumb contrarianism, you do realize Youtube monetizes things, and Louis CK just gonna get famous again like that, right? Franken is past his sell-by date. Dude will die comfortable but not rich. CK, I'm not so sure.
These people will get a second chance until there is a net to stop them and redirect them. No we can't murder them but seriously I would rather puke on my laptop than see Louis CK again, and that has everything to do with the fact that he's f**king yelly Seinfeld and very little to do with the fact that he's Gropey McNoTicketMaster. They're both funny but they're both also creepy fuckers in a way that given how I know young models too and...could do that thing but I don't...that I am not. I'm claiming credit for it because that power imbalance, including a dose of celebrity, is a thing in my life and I am refusing to take advantage because I know what it means. But I learned that through commitment and experience and the privilege to have that in the first place.
This is hard. We need a better way to talk about this and I don't have it. Nevermind that it looks like I'm fishing for credit, even if I'm doing that (who knows? I know, I'm not, I think), we need a better way to talk about this! I said "male gaze" to a model and she didn't know. What. the. fuck.
Also I'm drunk. I'm done now.
posted by saysthis at 10:38 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well wait, no, I'm not quite done. Almost, but one more thing. OK, so I heard the thing and it set off my alarm, but let's be honest, privilege happened to me and I felt my privilege threatened. There was, instinctively, at the base of my reaction, something that said, "Your privilege as a person with money time and access means you found someone naive who didn't know the deal with sexism and that's all".
That's real. Who cares if it's in defense of my privilege or any privilege, it's unjust and wrong.
All the loops backward to power, money, and patriarchy are why what I heard from her is just...wrong. I'm checking my privilege I think, but...even in that, there is privilege, because I had the time to teach myself to check it.
I need to shut up but I'm just saying this is a hard thing if we're going somewhere where we're gonna mete out appropriate punishment and rehabilitation. Lots to consider. I hope we get there.
posted by saysthis at 10:45 PM on April 27, 2018
That's real. Who cares if it's in defense of my privilege or any privilege, it's unjust and wrong.
All the loops backward to power, money, and patriarchy are why what I heard from her is just...wrong. I'm checking my privilege I think, but...even in that, there is privilege, because I had the time to teach myself to check it.
I need to shut up but I'm just saying this is a hard thing if we're going somewhere where we're gonna mete out appropriate punishment and rehabilitation. Lots to consider. I hope we get there.
posted by saysthis at 10:45 PM on April 27, 2018
His own?
That sounds nice, but he's the guy who was harassing or abusing others in the first place, so having him manage his own behavior doesn't appear to be an effective tactic.
Well, that's where consistent consequences would come in handy. These guys aren't stupid. If they received the same kind of negative consequences every time they pulled the same shit, they would eventually have to address their behavior. If they need counseling in order to do that, they can seek it out.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:54 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
That sounds nice, but he's the guy who was harassing or abusing others in the first place, so having him manage his own behavior doesn't appear to be an effective tactic.
Well, that's where consistent consequences would come in handy. These guys aren't stupid. If they received the same kind of negative consequences every time they pulled the same shit, they would eventually have to address their behavior. If they need counseling in order to do that, they can seek it out.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:54 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I want a one chance policy on sexual harassment. You get ONE warning and if you still can't stop harassing a woman, you get fired. Automatically. There needs to actually be consequences for this shit or else they have no motivation to stop. What do you do about creepers who aren't sorry and will keep on going until they go to jail? Hell if I know.
saysthis is reminding me of why I hate older man/younger women pairings most of the time. It seems like so many of them are picking out girls because they're hot, young, and naive and therefore can pull whatever damn shit they want on them because the girl's blankteen years old and hasn't encountered someone like him yet to know better. They don't want an equal, they want someone they can always pull something over on.
Hell if I know what to do with these dudes, though. I wish they would just go to Asshole Island or some virtual reality world where they can abuse imaginary women and be happy without hurting someone real, or whatever the hell it takes. But if men aren't happy and they're angry abusive fucks by nature, then they...keep doing it, somehow. And only now has anyone started to not get away with that. If they have no interest in redemption and learning how not to be assholes, then what do we do, wait for them to do something bad enough where they might go to jail?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:22 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
saysthis is reminding me of why I hate older man/younger women pairings most of the time. It seems like so many of them are picking out girls because they're hot, young, and naive and therefore can pull whatever damn shit they want on them because the girl's blankteen years old and hasn't encountered someone like him yet to know better. They don't want an equal, they want someone they can always pull something over on.
Hell if I know what to do with these dudes, though. I wish they would just go to Asshole Island or some virtual reality world where they can abuse imaginary women and be happy without hurting someone real, or whatever the hell it takes. But if men aren't happy and they're angry abusive fucks by nature, then they...keep doing it, somehow. And only now has anyone started to not get away with that. If they have no interest in redemption and learning how not to be assholes, then what do we do, wait for them to do something bad enough where they might go to jail?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:22 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I want a one chance policy on sexual harassment. You get ONE warning and if you still can't stop harassing a woman, you get fired. Automatically.
I'm less sure about that, because office politics get nasty, and I don't want any accusation to be an insta-fire offense; I can see no end of trouble with that. (Not the ridiculous "but any false accusation could sink a good man's career!!!" BS, but, "any coercive guy could browbeat the women who work on his team into accusing his rival.") I cannot see any "X offense causes firing, by law" setup that doesn't result in a lot more damage to marginalized people than to privileged ones.
Hell, I would expect asshole guys to announce that "the fat chick in HR" flirted at them and she has to be fired now.
But I would definitely love for companies to be on the hook for actual harassment that they ignore. Spitballing here: If someone can go through the process of getting someone convicted or sued for harassment or anything like it, and they can prove the company knew he was a problem and they didn't fire him, they owe the victim a minimum of *all the wages paid to that guy after they knew,* or should have known. (There are nice legal standards for "you should have known this," and they are based on sensible real-world standards. There's often long complex arguments about the specifics, but there's plenty of precedent for pointing out coverups in the workplace.)
Multiple victims? Multiple payments equal to his wages - if you've got someone toxic in your company, you want to get him out ASAP, before he costs much more than he's worth.
Social media platforms: SAME THING, dammit. If there's a history of complaints against someone for harassment and verbal assault, and they refused to throw him out for behavior that would not be permitted in any normal public venue, they're on the hook for, hm, all the money earned from his account; count up advertising revenues and such. Throw in some baseline assumptions of, "at least the amount that the crime could be fined."
Establish something like that, and future companies won't want to take the risk of hiring him; twitter won't want to let him back in. Long-term rehab/recovery options: actual reform, where he persuades potential employers that he's no longer a liability.
What to do if he can't get hired? Well, he can go on welfare. He can ask friends or relatives to stay with them. He can be homeless in the street. I am not concerned with providing safe, comfortable, thriving spaces for guys who cannot understand why you don't show your dick to someone who doesn't want to see it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:50 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm less sure about that, because office politics get nasty, and I don't want any accusation to be an insta-fire offense; I can see no end of trouble with that. (Not the ridiculous "but any false accusation could sink a good man's career!!!" BS, but, "any coercive guy could browbeat the women who work on his team into accusing his rival.") I cannot see any "X offense causes firing, by law" setup that doesn't result in a lot more damage to marginalized people than to privileged ones.
Hell, I would expect asshole guys to announce that "the fat chick in HR" flirted at them and she has to be fired now.
But I would definitely love for companies to be on the hook for actual harassment that they ignore. Spitballing here: If someone can go through the process of getting someone convicted or sued for harassment or anything like it, and they can prove the company knew he was a problem and they didn't fire him, they owe the victim a minimum of *all the wages paid to that guy after they knew,* or should have known. (There are nice legal standards for "you should have known this," and they are based on sensible real-world standards. There's often long complex arguments about the specifics, but there's plenty of precedent for pointing out coverups in the workplace.)
Multiple victims? Multiple payments equal to his wages - if you've got someone toxic in your company, you want to get him out ASAP, before he costs much more than he's worth.
Social media platforms: SAME THING, dammit. If there's a history of complaints against someone for harassment and verbal assault, and they refused to throw him out for behavior that would not be permitted in any normal public venue, they're on the hook for, hm, all the money earned from his account; count up advertising revenues and such. Throw in some baseline assumptions of, "at least the amount that the crime could be fined."
Establish something like that, and future companies won't want to take the risk of hiring him; twitter won't want to let him back in. Long-term rehab/recovery options: actual reform, where he persuades potential employers that he's no longer a liability.
What to do if he can't get hired? Well, he can go on welfare. He can ask friends or relatives to stay with them. He can be homeless in the street. I am not concerned with providing safe, comfortable, thriving spaces for guys who cannot understand why you don't show your dick to someone who doesn't want to see it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:50 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don’t care about rehabilitation. They already know that they’re doing something wrong, that’s the point of doing it. That’s why they wait until their victim is alone and can’t fight back, or give a credible opposition, or prove their side of the story. I care about getting these men out of the power centers of society. I don’t care where they go after that, except insofar as further offenses are met with progressively stiffer sentences.
As for consequences, enforcing the law would be a big step up. This will probably require more female legislators, and more female law enforcement officers who will not dismiss women’s complaints or protect male predators and repeat offenders.
As for Al Franken, he absolutely should have been forced to quit, because this world is full of talent and we don’t need to make room for the ass-grabbers and molesters in the group just to get things accomplished. We can, in fact, fire every single one of those guys and replace them with people who can get the job done without bringing their baggage to the table. If we bag on evangelicals for consciously applying the blinders for wanting to elect Roy Moore, then we have no business making excuses for Al Franken just because he’s on “our side”. There are 300 million people in this country and I’m pretty sure that we could fill all 100 Senate seats with people who don’t engage in sexually inappropriate behavior EVER, much less in the performance of their office. And make no mistake, I adored Al Franken, he was my senator, I got a goddamn selfie with him at a book signing the week before that photo went public, and it broke my heart into a million pieces to change my mind about him, but he had to go and so does everyone like him.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:04 AM on April 28, 2018 [20 favorites]
As for consequences, enforcing the law would be a big step up. This will probably require more female legislators, and more female law enforcement officers who will not dismiss women’s complaints or protect male predators and repeat offenders.
As for Al Franken, he absolutely should have been forced to quit, because this world is full of talent and we don’t need to make room for the ass-grabbers and molesters in the group just to get things accomplished. We can, in fact, fire every single one of those guys and replace them with people who can get the job done without bringing their baggage to the table. If we bag on evangelicals for consciously applying the blinders for wanting to elect Roy Moore, then we have no business making excuses for Al Franken just because he’s on “our side”. There are 300 million people in this country and I’m pretty sure that we could fill all 100 Senate seats with people who don’t engage in sexually inappropriate behavior EVER, much less in the performance of their office. And make no mistake, I adored Al Franken, he was my senator, I got a goddamn selfie with him at a book signing the week before that photo went public, and it broke my heart into a million pieces to change my mind about him, but he had to go and so does everyone like him.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:04 AM on April 28, 2018 [20 favorites]
I’ll work hard to put all my creative energies about how to rehabilitate these bad men into society and give them back their careers and dignity when their victims are afforded the same opportunity.
posted by Jubey at 2:18 AM on April 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 2:18 AM on April 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
I think "what's next?" is a practical consideration, and not a consideration especially concerned with the well-being of these men for their own sake. When we have people cast adrift, they don't just vanish -- they're still here. If they're unemployable, what the fuck do we do with them? It's fine to say that we don't care or it's not our problem, but it is our problem, because they're still here. Can what's wrong with them be fixed or not?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:32 AM on April 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:32 AM on April 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
Or let me put it another way. When you have a field full of toxic waste, maybe you say, "Well, this isn't my problem -- I want to have a picnic. I'm a good person who would never fill a field with toxic waste, damn it! I deserve to have a nice picnic and not have to worry about toxic waste." Everybody cheers. We all agree it isn't our problem and we have a picnic. Do we die of cancer because nobody cleaned up the mess we all agree is rightfully someone else's problem? I would hope not, but maybe.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:41 AM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:41 AM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Not to re-start an argument or anything, but FWIW I think Franken had to go as well. Forcing someone to kiss you is sexual assault. Groping someone's breasts while they're passed out is sexual assault. These are not edge cases. They are crimes, there's ample proof that he committed them, and he absolutely deserved to lose his job over them. He should be glad he wasn't actually prosecuted.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:35 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:35 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
And no, we don’t need to figure out what to do with the men who get fired and ostracized. They can do that themselves. The whole idea that these men need someone else to handle them and be responsible for them is invalid. They are responsible for themselves.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:36 AM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 6:36 AM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
But we do get to a point where we wind up with the sex offenders living under a bridge because there's nowhere else they can legally live. And I guess it's the tug of war between rehabilitation and vengeance. Some--maybe many--may deserve to live under a bridge forever and we certainly do need to focus on the victims. But it can feel like an internet mobbing taking down a bad person, where everyone dusts off their hands and congratulates themselves on justice served, but that person still exists in society in some form, they didn't just disappear to Asshole Island.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 7:45 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 7:45 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is a response to a minor point as I'm still forming a more coherent response to the larger point.
Point me to the sex ed class that handles all that shit! You can't! It doesn't exist!
It does exist. Our Whole Lives is a sex ed program created and presented by the Unitarian Universalist Association and The United Church of Christ that deals with pretty much everything you talked about.
I know because I've done it and we talked about every issue you mentioned except the hormones in vegetables. I didn't do the younger versions, so I'm not a sure that they talk about period pain with first graders... but we definitely talked about period pain as teenagers. We talked about different types of relationships and what emotional abuse looks like. It was awkward as hell for me at the time, but now I feel like I'm definitely better off because I went through it.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 7:49 AM on April 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
Point me to the sex ed class that handles all that shit! You can't! It doesn't exist!
It does exist. Our Whole Lives is a sex ed program created and presented by the Unitarian Universalist Association and The United Church of Christ that deals with pretty much everything you talked about.
I know because I've done it and we talked about every issue you mentioned except the hormones in vegetables. I didn't do the younger versions, so I'm not a sure that they talk about period pain with first graders... but we definitely talked about period pain as teenagers. We talked about different types of relationships and what emotional abuse looks like. It was awkward as hell for me at the time, but now I feel like I'm definitely better off because I went through it.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 7:49 AM on April 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
I've spent the last 18 months trying to recover from sexual violence by an ex husband whom I did not report to the police, and who, in fact, I'm co-parenting with because he's "a good dad" and indeed "a good man" in every other way. Except he raped me sometimes and *tried* to rape me other times which was equally traumatic. NBD. It was just me he hurt. It was only the particular dynamic between us that made him feel entitled to my body, and made him apoplectic and incredulous when I said, ever so mildly, "How come you didn't stop when I said stop so many times?" It broke his mind to imagine I could possibly have "construed" our encounter in that way. He would never rape another woman, certainly not the white woman he's now dating who's ten years older than him. The dynamic is entirely different there.
Rape happens like this sometimes, the product of "innocent" entitlement, unspoken power-over, and cultural hangups that operate like code switching in that they only show up within our own group sometimes and do not operate outside of it.
It doesn't make me any less raped, but here we are. I live in the middle of this dilemma, forced to see my repeated rapist as not only a mostly-good human, but also as the father of my children-- a relationship I need to protect for the foreseeable future or at least until my kids are well into adulthood. I don't know that I can ever speak openly about having been raped by their father, not to them, and therefore not to anyone. My therapist says, never say never. Who knows? Maybe when the kids are 30-something I can write about this under my own name. Maybe.
In the meantime I've gone from having panic attacks at every mention of the r-word and jumping at every scampering squirrel outside my window, to mostly calm, mostly together,except I fucking lose it during pap smears and I can't have certain kinds of sex in certain positions still without my ears nearly exploding from how hard my heart is going. Occasionally I still spiral into a depression and I have suicidal thoughts, but it's more manageable. Recovery seems to be at hand.
That's me, lucky enough to be able to leave my rapist, and lucky enough to be able to pay for 18 months of therapy and find a good therapist or two who have helped me through, and lucky enough to have a rapist who is a good man in other ways so he did not assault me more when I left, did not make it unduly hard on me to leave him, did not stalk me, did not threaten me.
I wanted to tell you all this story here on this thread because I see how the conversation here is overtaken by concern for the reality of the lives of rapists, for their right to start over, to guarantee the safety of the rest of us by making sure the rapists are happy and safe. I LIVE this, you all. I live it with my own rapist AND SO DO ALMOST ALL RAPE VICTIMS, DO YOU HEAR? This thing you are talking about here in theory, with academic names like Restorative Justice or Rehabilitation or what the fuck ever, WE LIVE IT AS A CONDITION OF OUR LIVES AND WE ALWAYS HAVE.
And there is not a day when it does not rankle. My anger at his ability to start over, my anger at the social imperatives that make it necessary for me to carry this secret and let him carry on with his life... Spare a thought for it. Spare a thought for my anger. And know that most rape victims are not even as lucky as I am. They carry not only anger but also the threat, the danger, the continued victimization.
How can I move you all to stop expending energies on rapista and start focusing exclusively on victims? Rapists don't deserve shit. Not your theories. Not your mercy. Not your MeFi comment. ... Not while a single victim still exists on earth.
posted by MiraK at 8:23 AM on April 28, 2018 [42 favorites]
Rape happens like this sometimes, the product of "innocent" entitlement, unspoken power-over, and cultural hangups that operate like code switching in that they only show up within our own group sometimes and do not operate outside of it.
It doesn't make me any less raped, but here we are. I live in the middle of this dilemma, forced to see my repeated rapist as not only a mostly-good human, but also as the father of my children-- a relationship I need to protect for the foreseeable future or at least until my kids are well into adulthood. I don't know that I can ever speak openly about having been raped by their father, not to them, and therefore not to anyone. My therapist says, never say never. Who knows? Maybe when the kids are 30-something I can write about this under my own name. Maybe.
In the meantime I've gone from having panic attacks at every mention of the r-word and jumping at every scampering squirrel outside my window, to mostly calm, mostly together,except I fucking lose it during pap smears and I can't have certain kinds of sex in certain positions still without my ears nearly exploding from how hard my heart is going. Occasionally I still spiral into a depression and I have suicidal thoughts, but it's more manageable. Recovery seems to be at hand.
That's me, lucky enough to be able to leave my rapist, and lucky enough to be able to pay for 18 months of therapy and find a good therapist or two who have helped me through, and lucky enough to have a rapist who is a good man in other ways so he did not assault me more when I left, did not make it unduly hard on me to leave him, did not stalk me, did not threaten me.
I wanted to tell you all this story here on this thread because I see how the conversation here is overtaken by concern for the reality of the lives of rapists, for their right to start over, to guarantee the safety of the rest of us by making sure the rapists are happy and safe. I LIVE this, you all. I live it with my own rapist AND SO DO ALMOST ALL RAPE VICTIMS, DO YOU HEAR? This thing you are talking about here in theory, with academic names like Restorative Justice or Rehabilitation or what the fuck ever, WE LIVE IT AS A CONDITION OF OUR LIVES AND WE ALWAYS HAVE.
And there is not a day when it does not rankle. My anger at his ability to start over, my anger at the social imperatives that make it necessary for me to carry this secret and let him carry on with his life... Spare a thought for it. Spare a thought for my anger. And know that most rape victims are not even as lucky as I am. They carry not only anger but also the threat, the danger, the continued victimization.
How can I move you all to stop expending energies on rapista and start focusing exclusively on victims? Rapists don't deserve shit. Not your theories. Not your mercy. Not your MeFi comment. ... Not while a single victim still exists on earth.
posted by MiraK at 8:23 AM on April 28, 2018 [42 favorites]
I'm popping in to say that Ontario as well teaches sex curriculum that focuses on health, relationships, consent, respect for gender expression/non-binary etc for five years or so now. So it can be done. Of course some don't like it, I have to sign a form every year consenting to my children being taught the new sex ed, and one of the (failed) conservative political leadership candidates literally campaigned on "our kids can focus on math because they are thinking about the anal sex positions they were taught!" Education is key. These young workers (I've managed a few) do NOT stand for the sexual harassment that has been normalised, and they have the backing of workplace anti-harassment laws. Where we fall down is in the enforcement.
posted by saucysault at 8:37 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 8:37 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
The resources to teach these men exist. The resources to teach society, this is what consent is; this is how healthy relationships work; this is appropriate workplace behavior - these all exist. They're in use in some places. They're not more widely known or used because the men in power do not want them to be. There's a lot of money and a lot of perks for the guys on top in the current system, and they don't want to share or lose any of that.
We have an epidemic of sexual crimes that most authorities are unwilling to litigate - cops won't even take statements from victims, much less prosecute; civil courts use ridiculously high evidence requirements and demand the victims fit a certain category of "pure and undeserving of this behavior" before they'll touch the cases.
And there's a growing pushback, and a growing awareness that if we treated harassment and rape like we treat shoplifting and burglary, a huge percentage of the men in society, esp white men in powerful roles, would be thrown in jail. (1 in 10, by some accounts, and unlike many crimes, it skews higher for power and status.) And yes, throwing 10% of all men in jail or at least out of their schools, jobs, and communities, would be horrifically disruptive to basically everything. If it had the tiniest chance of happening, I'd worry about how to deal with it.
As it stands, we don't have any huge number of guys who can't get a job, can't rent an apartment, can't go to school, get thrown out of dance clubs, because they have been abusive creeps. Instead, we have a handful of celebrities who lost their "awesome celebrity dude" status who are whining about how their lives are now... still a hellfuck of a lot more comfortable than mine.
We already have systems for rehabilitating people who've committed crimes. They're spotty and sometimes ineffective, but, like the training that these things are crimes here is how not to do them, they exist. Their value is entirely contingent on the perpetrators realizing they did something wrong - none of the current celebrity men seem to think that; none of them have faced legal, as opposed to social, repercussions. We don't need to talk about rehabilitation until we've actually started implementing penalties.
One in three black men is likely to wind up in jail at some point in his life. When do we get to say, "one in three rapists will wind up in jail?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:40 AM on April 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
We have an epidemic of sexual crimes that most authorities are unwilling to litigate - cops won't even take statements from victims, much less prosecute; civil courts use ridiculously high evidence requirements and demand the victims fit a certain category of "pure and undeserving of this behavior" before they'll touch the cases.
And there's a growing pushback, and a growing awareness that if we treated harassment and rape like we treat shoplifting and burglary, a huge percentage of the men in society, esp white men in powerful roles, would be thrown in jail. (1 in 10, by some accounts, and unlike many crimes, it skews higher for power and status.) And yes, throwing 10% of all men in jail or at least out of their schools, jobs, and communities, would be horrifically disruptive to basically everything. If it had the tiniest chance of happening, I'd worry about how to deal with it.
As it stands, we don't have any huge number of guys who can't get a job, can't rent an apartment, can't go to school, get thrown out of dance clubs, because they have been abusive creeps. Instead, we have a handful of celebrities who lost their "awesome celebrity dude" status who are whining about how their lives are now... still a hellfuck of a lot more comfortable than mine.
We already have systems for rehabilitating people who've committed crimes. They're spotty and sometimes ineffective, but, like the training that these things are crimes here is how not to do them, they exist. Their value is entirely contingent on the perpetrators realizing they did something wrong - none of the current celebrity men seem to think that; none of them have faced legal, as opposed to social, repercussions. We don't need to talk about rehabilitation until we've actually started implementing penalties.
One in three black men is likely to wind up in jail at some point in his life. When do we get to say, "one in three rapists will wind up in jail?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:40 AM on April 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
If they're unemployable
Not going back to the same job or to a position of power in the same field =/= "unemployable."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:16 AM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Not going back to the same job or to a position of power in the same field =/= "unemployable."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:16 AM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
"Point me to the sex ed class that handles all that shit! You can't! It doesn't exist! We're not even arguing for it let alone funding it as a public good! "
As a school board member, I reviewed 15 curricula, in English and in Spanish, at levels K through 12, that all met these criteria and, indeed, went quite a bit farther. (I suppose none of them taught polyamory, but they had material to help teachers answer questions about it.) My state requires sex ed to be comprehensive, medically accurate, peer reviewed, and evidence-based. It has to include information about healthy relationships, healthy sexuality, and abuse as well as the mechanics of sex. It has to include extensive LGBTQ information (or it does not meet the legal definition of "comprehensive") -- honestly I learned some stuff I didn't know about the mechanics of STD prevention in same-sex relationships. And it is all ALL about enthusiastic consent and bodily autonomy.
Our committee reviewing the curricula was around 30 people and consisted of parents, high school students, school board members, teachers, a city councilwoman, the director of the county public health agency, six doctors (adolescent health specialists, ob/gyns, public health specialists, an epidemiologist (we were having a syphilis problem at the time)), six nurses (similar expertise), local LGBTQ activists, several public health professionals, the local domestic violence prevention program's director (she rocks), religious leaders from all our major local religious groups, and some sex education experts we brought in from Chicago to help us evaluate the programs and understand gaps in our own knowledge. For example, teaching trans information to students is fairly new, so none of our experts -- teachers, LGBTQ activists, doctors -- knew a whole lot about effective ways to present that information to 14-year-olds, and the sex education experts were able to talk to us about that, help us understand what it would look like and what were good and bad ways of teaching it, and which curricula did it better or worse. Similarly, asexuality was a very recent add (the teens totally knew more than anyone else), and they were able to help us understand what teenagers would want/need to know about it and more and less effective ways to get that across.
It was an ENORMOUSLY interesting process and if you ever have the chance to sit in on a similar curriculum review of sex ed programs, I strongly recommend it.
Anyway lots of states do allow shitty sex ed programs, in the US, but the ones that mandate comprehensive, medically-accurate, evidence-based programs are looking at curricula that are light years beyond what any of us got in school, even if we got really good sex ed programs. The resources out there these days are amazing, and the people were all so passionate about their work and getting kids accurate and supportive information.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:22 AM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
As a school board member, I reviewed 15 curricula, in English and in Spanish, at levels K through 12, that all met these criteria and, indeed, went quite a bit farther. (I suppose none of them taught polyamory, but they had material to help teachers answer questions about it.) My state requires sex ed to be comprehensive, medically accurate, peer reviewed, and evidence-based. It has to include information about healthy relationships, healthy sexuality, and abuse as well as the mechanics of sex. It has to include extensive LGBTQ information (or it does not meet the legal definition of "comprehensive") -- honestly I learned some stuff I didn't know about the mechanics of STD prevention in same-sex relationships. And it is all ALL about enthusiastic consent and bodily autonomy.
Our committee reviewing the curricula was around 30 people and consisted of parents, high school students, school board members, teachers, a city councilwoman, the director of the county public health agency, six doctors (adolescent health specialists, ob/gyns, public health specialists, an epidemiologist (we were having a syphilis problem at the time)), six nurses (similar expertise), local LGBTQ activists, several public health professionals, the local domestic violence prevention program's director (she rocks), religious leaders from all our major local religious groups, and some sex education experts we brought in from Chicago to help us evaluate the programs and understand gaps in our own knowledge. For example, teaching trans information to students is fairly new, so none of our experts -- teachers, LGBTQ activists, doctors -- knew a whole lot about effective ways to present that information to 14-year-olds, and the sex education experts were able to talk to us about that, help us understand what it would look like and what were good and bad ways of teaching it, and which curricula did it better or worse. Similarly, asexuality was a very recent add (the teens totally knew more than anyone else), and they were able to help us understand what teenagers would want/need to know about it and more and less effective ways to get that across.
It was an ENORMOUSLY interesting process and if you ever have the chance to sit in on a similar curriculum review of sex ed programs, I strongly recommend it.
Anyway lots of states do allow shitty sex ed programs, in the US, but the ones that mandate comprehensive, medically-accurate, evidence-based programs are looking at curricula that are light years beyond what any of us got in school, even if we got really good sex ed programs. The resources out there these days are amazing, and the people were all so passionate about their work and getting kids accurate and supportive information.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:22 AM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Not going back to the same job or to a position of power in the same field =/= "unemployable."
Plus, in today’s culture you are far more likely to get fired or edged out and branded a “troublemaker” in your industry if you report harassment (let alone sue) than if you harass. That issue needs to be resolved first, not the issue of whether the harasser can still make a living after being fired for cause.
posted by Autumnheart at 9:33 AM on April 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
Plus, in today’s culture you are far more likely to get fired or edged out and branded a “troublemaker” in your industry if you report harassment (let alone sue) than if you harass. That issue needs to be resolved first, not the issue of whether the harasser can still make a living after being fired for cause.
posted by Autumnheart at 9:33 AM on April 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
So the thing is that I'm not concerned for a rapist/harasser's well-being. I'm concerned about what we as a society choose to do with these people, because I think that just evicting them from one's personal space -- professional or private -- is a kind of social NIMBYing that keeps the offender somebody's problem. It may seem like justice to consign that man to the "limbo" of a shitty job but someone will still have to work with him at that job -- in all likelihood someone with many fewer opportunities to move on than a person who worked with him somewhere higher up on the economic ladder. What I'm saying is that as long as these people stay in society, we have to figure out what to do with them. For the sake of others in society.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:18 AM on April 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:18 AM on April 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
I think that just evicting them from one's personal space -- professional or private -- is a kind of social NIMBYing that keeps the offender somebody's problem
Not if you do it with a big sling shot aimed at the Great Pacific Trash Island
posted by schadenfrau at 10:22 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Not if you do it with a big sling shot aimed at the Great Pacific Trash Island
posted by schadenfrau at 10:22 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Lots of great plans for sending abusers and harassers to abandoned islands or shooting them into the sun or whatever. I don’t get the sense that anyone really wants the death penalty for these people, but there aren’t a lot of comfortable ideas, so all we have are these jokes. What we all really want is for them not to exist in the first place. They’re like human toxic waste.
Wealthy, powerful offenders could conceivably retire from public life and just not bother anyone anymore. Everyone else probably still needs to make a living and therefore exist in the world in some way. Ideally, they will also face some consequences for their action and be unable to reoffend.
posted by chrchr at 10:44 AM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Wealthy, powerful offenders could conceivably retire from public life and just not bother anyone anymore. Everyone else probably still needs to make a living and therefore exist in the world in some way. Ideally, they will also face some consequences for their action and be unable to reoffend.
posted by chrchr at 10:44 AM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Universal Basic Income?
posted by mllm at 10:46 AM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mllm at 10:46 AM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
The only thing they're losing, is the ability to be lauded as Great Men. They're not bitching over the lack of employment or education options; they're bitching that they don't get to go back to the behaviors that got them in trouble the first time. They may have lost their job or been expelled, but it's not like schools distribute lists of "STUDENTS EXPELLED FOR BEING SEXUALLY CREEPY" publicly, nor does every company contact previous ones to ask, "so, it says he was fired... did he rape someone in his department?"
At most, they suffer some setbacks, which they'd get past quickly if they changed their behavior. I do not mind if we have a large pool of harassers and rapists and their supporters who "can't get jobs" (by which they mean, can't get high-paying high-status jobs) because they were publicly vile after being privately vile.
If the number of guys fired/ostracized for being abusive misogynists approaches 1 in 10 of all abusive misogynists, I'm willing to consider we may need to come up with a plan. But right now, their loss isn't impacting society; they just want the goodies they used to have.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:52 AM on April 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
At most, they suffer some setbacks, which they'd get past quickly if they changed their behavior. I do not mind if we have a large pool of harassers and rapists and their supporters who "can't get jobs" (by which they mean, can't get high-paying high-status jobs) because they were publicly vile after being privately vile.
If the number of guys fired/ostracized for being abusive misogynists approaches 1 in 10 of all abusive misogynists, I'm willing to consider we may need to come up with a plan. But right now, their loss isn't impacting society; they just want the goodies they used to have.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:52 AM on April 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
This isn't exactly a new problem. There's been a discussion about how to rehabilitate people so long as we've had a penal system. We're now coming to a more equitable distribution of justice, but rapists and sexual offenders are not some unique new class of criminal. We know fairly well that simply excluding them from society and washing our hands of them doesn't work because it's impossible. This is about the "men who aren't famous enough to make headlines", and not just rich guys who can go back to their mansion.
If our societal solution to these guys is the same societal solution we apply to most criminals these days, it will basically be nothing. The difference is that these guys work in offices and live in the suburbs.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:24 PM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
If our societal solution to these guys is the same societal solution we apply to most criminals these days, it will basically be nothing. The difference is that these guys work in offices and live in the suburbs.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:24 PM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
My societal solution to these guys is to treat them like we treat their victims.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:30 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 7:30 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
That's sort of my feeling, Autumnheart. I mean yeah sex offenders are people too and everything, but the system has just been skewed so hard in their favor for so long that if it tips back the other way a bit for a while then oh well. Like, no system of justice is perfect but things would have to be pretty damn unfair to male sex offenders before it would feel like things had gone too far, and we're nowhere near that point yet so even bringing this up feels vaguely concern-trolly at this stage. Yes, men who offend may have a rough time of it going forward. Yes, some men may face consequences that they don't deserve. But that's exactly the type of thing that female victims of sex crimes have dealt with since forever, and there's a long way to go before things are in their proper balance. The focus should remain on improving conditions for women.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:46 PM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:46 PM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
And it’s like, I see exactly ZERO concern and hand-wringing about women who lose their careers and livelihoods due to harassment and assault, or who switch fields, or who endure lowered economic reward due to any of it, even though that is the norm. Instead it’s dressed up as “Women make less money than men because they can’t or won’t work as well as men.”
What’s the worst that could happen? We see a trend where the pay gap reverses because men select themselves out of a job because they can’t stop being a jerk? I’m cool with that, that seems like exactly how a meritocracy should work. Men get more violent and desperate—what, as opposed to now, where they’re already shooting people daily and assaulting people with all but complete impunity? That isn’t a reason to not put the hammer down. It’s a reason TO do it.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:10 PM on April 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
What’s the worst that could happen? We see a trend where the pay gap reverses because men select themselves out of a job because they can’t stop being a jerk? I’m cool with that, that seems like exactly how a meritocracy should work. Men get more violent and desperate—what, as opposed to now, where they’re already shooting people daily and assaulting people with all but complete impunity? That isn’t a reason to not put the hammer down. It’s a reason TO do it.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:10 PM on April 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
And it’s not like we’re asking so much of these men. Don’t assault, rape, or harass people. This is such an incredibly low bar. All you have to do is not assault, rape or harass anyone and you get to be as successful as you want. Is that seriously so fucking unreasonable an expectation that we have to create a whole complicated system about protecting men from serious consequences that arise as a direct result of their own behavior? No, I really don’t think it is.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:16 PM on April 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 8:16 PM on April 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
What part of this is about protecting men from consequences?
posted by chrchr at 9:12 PM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 9:12 PM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
The part where people are extra concerned about the punishment being too mean, and how men would react if so many of them lost their jobs or reputations or freedom as a result, and how we don’t want to be TOO harsh because that would make us bad people or something.
And certainly it is not an entire solution in itself. Part of the problem is that we raise half the population to be caring, empathetic, non-violent, self-sacrificing, non-exploitative members of society, and not the other half. The other half is taught to assume they come first as their birthright. And a lot of the pushback in this thread seems to be a reinforcement of that, like “They are supposed to come first, and you are supposed to be really empathetic and care about what happens to them.”
If we treat these men with the same level of consideration and empathy that they treat others, is that justice or violence? Or both? The phrase is what, “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality looks like oppression,” and in this case I’m sure that’s exactly what it looks like, but it isn’t. These laws are already on the books, they already have defined punishments, most corporations already have rules against harassment and discrimination and so forth, people know what is supposed to happen when you break them. The status quo at this time is that, in practice, the overwhelming result is that the victim is determined to be the “real” offender and punished accordingly. That’s what needs to change.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:17 AM on April 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
And certainly it is not an entire solution in itself. Part of the problem is that we raise half the population to be caring, empathetic, non-violent, self-sacrificing, non-exploitative members of society, and not the other half. The other half is taught to assume they come first as their birthright. And a lot of the pushback in this thread seems to be a reinforcement of that, like “They are supposed to come first, and you are supposed to be really empathetic and care about what happens to them.”
If we treat these men with the same level of consideration and empathy that they treat others, is that justice or violence? Or both? The phrase is what, “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality looks like oppression,” and in this case I’m sure that’s exactly what it looks like, but it isn’t. These laws are already on the books, they already have defined punishments, most corporations already have rules against harassment and discrimination and so forth, people know what is supposed to happen when you break them. The status quo at this time is that, in practice, the overwhelming result is that the victim is determined to be the “real” offender and punished accordingly. That’s what needs to change.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:17 AM on April 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
There’s a reason schools and companies opt to pass the trash: It’s by far the easiest option. Businesses get to say they’ve protected their workers or students (and evade liability in the process). And perhaps more important, it allows them to dodge very real and difficult questions: What do we want from abusers? Under what terms should they be allowed to return to normal life? Is there a way to explore possibilities of redemption that don’t put more of a burden on the people harmed in the first place?
I don’t have answers to those questions. What I do have is a plea to take them seriously. Because to tell men to sit down, to stay quiet, to disappear — cathartic as it may be — is its own form of looking away, and it is likely to come at someone else’s expense.
We very obviously as as society have to take care of victims first and better. But we can't just ignore the offending men. Not out of a need to coddle them, out of a need to protect their possible future victims.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 5:39 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don’t have answers to those questions. What I do have is a plea to take them seriously. Because to tell men to sit down, to stay quiet, to disappear — cathartic as it may be — is its own form of looking away, and it is likely to come at someone else’s expense.
We very obviously as as society have to take care of victims first and better. But we can't just ignore the offending men. Not out of a need to coddle them, out of a need to protect their possible future victims.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 5:39 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
What exactly constitutes “ignoring”?
posted by Autumnheart at 6:01 AM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Autumnheart at 6:01 AM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think it's pretty clear from the part I quoted from the article (and the article itself goes into more detail)! We cannot let these men continue to be passed from group to group, free to reoffend. We cannot let these men become, as kittens for breakfast put it perfectly above, "social NIMBYs." They're still somebody's problem.
Like probably many folks here, I was a victim of a serial workplace harasser. I tried my best to warn people about him, and it did no good - in the end, the trash was passed. My reputation was affected, his was not. My actions did nothing to protect the women he went on to harass, because the powers that be chose to ignore it. That is what constitutes "ignoring."
posted by everybody had matching towels at 6:59 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Like probably many folks here, I was a victim of a serial workplace harasser. I tried my best to warn people about him, and it did no good - in the end, the trash was passed. My reputation was affected, his was not. My actions did nothing to protect the women he went on to harass, because the powers that be chose to ignore it. That is what constitutes "ignoring."
posted by everybody had matching towels at 6:59 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Did they fire your workplace harasser?
posted by Autumnheart at 9:53 AM on April 29, 2018
posted by Autumnheart at 9:53 AM on April 29, 2018
We cannot let these men continue to be passed from group to group, free to reoffend.
I don't think many people here are part of that "we," except in the sense that we are often employed by the people who pass them along instead of demanding they face consequences.
It's well-established that when women who don't have a hell of a lot of authority try to demand that men face penalties for abuse, what happens is (1) the woman faces retaliation: public shaming, loss of job, often death threats; (2) usually nothing happens to him; if she's got a whole lot of very solid evidence, much noise is made and he gets a "black mark on his permanent record." Sometimes he even loses a job--but only the most vile of serial abusers of women deemed Very Very Innocent And Pure wind up in jail or blacklisted in any way that affects their careers.
And we definitely need to change this; need to push harder to require that sexual crimes be prosecuted just like theft, joyriding, fraud, and arson. Need to elect officials who believe harassment and rape are serious go-to-jail crimes and adjust the laws to say so, need to elect and appoint judges who don't believe men and women should live under a different set of behavior standards. We're working toward that; it's a long, slow process with a lot of setbacks.
The article frames the problem as "what do we do with the bad men," as if "we" have a choice. As if a man's history of harassment were public knowledge; as if universities have a way to brand expelled students whose offenses the local police have declined prosecute. And it talks about restorative justice, as if that were something we, the past-and-potential victims, should just offer, rather than being contingent on the perpetrator wanting to make amends.
There are plenty of options for those perpetrators who are contrite and have become appalled at the harm they've caused. For the others: stronger laws, longer jail sentences (definitely longer than "0 time"), and social ostracism, until other men realize that whatever those men did, they want nothing to do with it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:53 AM on April 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
I don't think many people here are part of that "we," except in the sense that we are often employed by the people who pass them along instead of demanding they face consequences.
It's well-established that when women who don't have a hell of a lot of authority try to demand that men face penalties for abuse, what happens is (1) the woman faces retaliation: public shaming, loss of job, often death threats; (2) usually nothing happens to him; if she's got a whole lot of very solid evidence, much noise is made and he gets a "black mark on his permanent record." Sometimes he even loses a job--but only the most vile of serial abusers of women deemed Very Very Innocent And Pure wind up in jail or blacklisted in any way that affects their careers.
And we definitely need to change this; need to push harder to require that sexual crimes be prosecuted just like theft, joyriding, fraud, and arson. Need to elect officials who believe harassment and rape are serious go-to-jail crimes and adjust the laws to say so, need to elect and appoint judges who don't believe men and women should live under a different set of behavior standards. We're working toward that; it's a long, slow process with a lot of setbacks.
The article frames the problem as "what do we do with the bad men," as if "we" have a choice. As if a man's history of harassment were public knowledge; as if universities have a way to brand expelled students whose offenses the local police have declined prosecute. And it talks about restorative justice, as if that were something we, the past-and-potential victims, should just offer, rather than being contingent on the perpetrator wanting to make amends.
There are plenty of options for those perpetrators who are contrite and have become appalled at the harm they've caused. For the others: stronger laws, longer jail sentences (definitely longer than "0 time"), and social ostracism, until other men realize that whatever those men did, they want nothing to do with it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:53 AM on April 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I totally agree with you! I mean "we" as "society," which we all are a part of, like "And we definitely need to change this; need to push harder to require that sexual crimes be prosecuted just like theft, joyriding, fraud, and arson. Need to elect officials who believe harassment and rape are serious go-to-jail crimes and adjust the laws to say so, need to elect and appoint judges who don't believe men and women should live under a different set of behavior standards. We're working toward that; it's a long, slow process with a lot of setbacks." - that's the "we" that I am talking about. Everyone, not just the victims, needs to fight for this.
And I double agree with your last part.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:00 PM on April 29, 2018
And I double agree with your last part.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:00 PM on April 29, 2018
These trash humans don't need "rehab" they need a dose of the reality of the commons. Oh boo hoo you lost your job because you were an asshole. Go find a job at a call center or a landscaping laborer or whatever low pay bottom of the barrel jobs people have to settle for due to their circumstances. MAybe they need to move out of their desired area to be more employable. Maybe they have to downgrade their lifestyle. Maybe they need to go back to school to retrain. Who cares? They ruined it for themselves and now they need to hustle like everyone else who doesn't get their ass worshipped for existing. Maybe after experiencing this life that us plebs live they might even become a hair more compassionate. Why should "billionaire loses job" be sad. He should have saved up for a rainy day. I highly doubt they care about the fast food cashier losing their job, so why should we care about them. Welcome them straight to the dump.
posted by WeekendJen at 9:28 AM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by WeekendJen at 9:28 AM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yea, all those existing plebs with bottom of the barrel jobs can just suck it up, they have to work with people we threw out of society in the hope that experiencing their miserable existence will teach the offenders to be nicer. And anyone who already was a landscaping laborer when they were harassing their coworkers will um that’s not the point!
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:23 AM on May 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:23 AM on May 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
people we threw out of society
Having to take a lower-paying job is not being thrown out of society, for crap's sake, and I, for one, I am so tired of this hyperbolic framing.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:11 AM on May 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Having to take a lower-paying job is not being thrown out of society, for crap's sake, and I, for one, I am so tired of this hyperbolic framing.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:11 AM on May 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
As someone who does outdoor, blue collar work though I do kinda resent the idea that my job is an appropriate place for shitty people. Why should all the sexual harassers be funneled into blue collar jobs? Why should blue collar workers be expected to put up with these shitheads as coworkers any more than white collar workers? Why is it OK to pass the trash downward, to low-prestige professions where sexual harassment is even more difficult to fight against? Why should we be society's dumping ground, and why should my job—which I sought out intentionally and quite enjoy on the whole, thanks—be considered a punishment?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:48 AM on May 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:48 AM on May 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
I mean, landscapers and waiters and house cleaners and roofers and janitors and such are people too. We don't want your trash, thanks. The idea that your job deserves to be free of sexual predators (which it absolutely does) but mine doesn't is pretty fucking insulting.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:52 AM on May 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:52 AM on May 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
I know, let's train them all to be freelance graphic designers and coders. Work remotely from home, no coworkers, and the main people they deal with are their clients, who have the benefit of a power differential. Much more appropriate than having them be construction workers or service staff. Let's let those be the professions that become known for being the fallback jobs for sexual predators. Makes sense to me!
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:16 AM on May 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:16 AM on May 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
The only thing that actually makes sense is a quarantine.
You know. Prison.
But for some reason that doesn’t even seem to be on the radar.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:32 AM on May 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
You know. Prison.
But for some reason that doesn’t even seem to be on the radar.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:32 AM on May 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
I am still just so irritated. My job involves visiting people—often quite wealthy people, as well as lots of middle and upper-middle class office types—in their homes, and it feels real great to think that they see me in my ripped work pants and t-shirt (which are appropriate workwear for the rough, clothes-destroying work that I do) as "bottom of the barrel." I mean I already know a lot of them think of me that way, but it's extra heartwarming to see that kind of blanket contempt for blue collar workers pop up here on MetaFilter. Thanks, you made my morning.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:38 AM on May 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:38 AM on May 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yes, prison for those whose actions qualify as criminal. But there is a lot of inappropriate sexual behavior that doesn't rise to that level, and yet still needs to be dealt with. How do we handle the guy who just makes inappropriate comments about his female coworkers' appearance, for instance? He should be fired (perhaps after some warnings, depending on the severity of his actions) but then what?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:54 AM on May 10, 2018
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:54 AM on May 10, 2018
Having to take a lower-paying job is not being thrown out of society, for crap's sake, and I, for one, I am so tired of this hyperbolic framing.
Oh sorry, I guess I should have quoted the phrase "thrown into the dump", that's totally different.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:24 PM on May 10, 2018
Oh sorry, I guess I should have quoted the phrase "thrown into the dump", that's totally different.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:24 PM on May 10, 2018
How do we handle the guy who just makes inappropriate comments about his female coworkers' appearance, for instance? He should be fired (perhaps after some warnings, depending on the severity of his actions) but then what?
No one knows. Hence this thread.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:48 PM on May 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
No one knows. Hence this thread.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:48 PM on May 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
If an abuser gets fired from his job, gets another job, and continues to abuse, of course he should be fired from that job, too. If we create a culture in which that kind of behavior isn't tolerated, excused, or ignored, they'll either get the message or deal with the consequences. To use the examples that have been given, the boss at the call center or landscaping firm shouldn't tolerate bad behavior any more than the movie studio or the Fortune 500 firm.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:02 PM on May 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:02 PM on May 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Noone has to work with these people. They should be fired from any job if they persist with their BS. But they definitely don't need to be rehab-ed back into the same high status high pay jobs they had before because... because... they feel they should be treated with kid gloves and not have to actually work lower status lower pay jobs like most other people?
I mean felons have trouble finding jobs and they often are only able to find employment in certain sectors like food service and laboring. I'm not insulting those jobs saying they "deserve" to have felons and harassers. They are just some of the only jobs they qualify for in the current hiring climate. The JOBS are bottom of the barrel (because they are hard on the body, sometimes dirty, often underpaid yet necessary, not many people want to do them, have irregular hours or seasons, etc). The (non harrassing) workers are NOT bottom of the barrel.
Also as a pleb, I'm not above the schadenfreude of high status harassers experiencing my kind of job hunt.
posted by WeekendJen at 12:02 PM on May 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean felons have trouble finding jobs and they often are only able to find employment in certain sectors like food service and laboring. I'm not insulting those jobs saying they "deserve" to have felons and harassers. They are just some of the only jobs they qualify for in the current hiring climate. The JOBS are bottom of the barrel (because they are hard on the body, sometimes dirty, often underpaid yet necessary, not many people want to do them, have irregular hours or seasons, etc). The (non harrassing) workers are NOT bottom of the barrel.
Also as a pleb, I'm not above the schadenfreude of high status harassers experiencing my kind of job hunt.
posted by WeekendJen at 12:02 PM on May 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
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