NY Attorney General Resigns After Abuse Allegations
May 7, 2018 9:13 PM Subscribe
Eric Schneiderman has risen to fame as a champion of women's rights. He's now been named as a serial abuser of women, and resigned hours after women's accounts were published. (Warning: graphic descriptions of physical violence)
I hope the consequences stick on this. In SF Mirkarimi got reinstated. In fact it's become a point of contention in the mayoral race here. London Breed is attacking (rightfully IMHO) Jane Kim by pointing out that Kim voted to reinstate him after he attacked his wife. Mind you- what Schneiderman did was a hell of a lot worse- but there was videos of Mirkarimi's wife's bruises with her describing the attack, and because the wife recanted (which happens how often?) nothing ever really happened. His career got derailed but zero consequences. Look out for people in NY a few years from now trying to elect Schneiderman somewhere because "he's suffered enough" or bullshit like that. I hope the women who have come forward are being protected.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:38 PM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:38 PM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
This better not fuck up the NY State backstop against Trump & Co.'s pardon power.
From the article:
"After the former girlfriend ended the relationship, she told several friends about the abuse. A number of them advised her to keep the story to herself, arguing that Schneiderman was too valuable a politician for the Democrats to lose."
posted by 445supermag at 9:40 PM on May 7, 2018 [26 favorites]
From the article:
"After the former girlfriend ended the relationship, she told several friends about the abuse. A number of them advised her to keep the story to herself, arguing that Schneiderman was too valuable a politician for the Democrats to lose."
posted by 445supermag at 9:40 PM on May 7, 2018 [26 favorites]
I say #TheWhelkforNYAG.
posted by Samizdata at 9:48 PM on May 7, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by Samizdata at 9:48 PM on May 7, 2018 [27 favorites]
Shades of "Al Franken is too valuable." Get rid of them ALL.
posted by monospace at 9:51 PM on May 7, 2018 [66 favorites]
posted by monospace at 9:51 PM on May 7, 2018 [66 favorites]
I worked a bit with Schneiderman decades ago when he was an ambitious young political operative in the Albany statehouse. He was a complete tool. Which has no bearing on these accusations, but which colored my reaction to every laudatory news mention of him in the intervening years.
posted by PhineasGage at 9:56 PM on May 7, 2018 [33 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 9:56 PM on May 7, 2018 [33 favorites]
I was so happy to hear that he was being urged to resign when I heard this story earlier today. That would not have been the recommendation five years ago; it would have been, "Oh, he's too valuable to lose," with the subtext of, "Women are expendable." I know the patriarchy's not fixed, let alone the kyriarchy, but I like that things are currently moving in the right direction. Get rid of them all.
posted by lazuli at 10:03 PM on May 7, 2018 [53 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 10:03 PM on May 7, 2018 [53 favorites]
This better not fuck up the NY State backstop against Trump & Co.'s pardon power.
#HRCforNYAG
posted by Going To Maine at 10:25 PM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
#HRCforNYAG
posted by Going To Maine at 10:25 PM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
#HRCforNYAGOh god, no. She has no prosecutorial experience and any investigation or prosecution against anybody even peripherally related to Trump would be widely assumed to be politically motivated, and not solely by Trump's base.
I can't even tell if you're joking but it would be a bad, bad idea, and even suggesting it jokingly feeds into Trump's narrative that all of the investigations of him and his lackeys are political persecution.
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:28 PM on May 7, 2018 [70 favorites]
So who is up for replacing him?
posted by gucci mane at 10:56 PM on May 7, 2018
posted by gucci mane at 10:56 PM on May 7, 2018
This better not fuck up the NY State backstop against Trump & Co.'s pardon power.
You mean, "HE better not have..." Because this is his own doing.
posted by Toddles at 11:03 PM on May 7, 2018 [92 favorites]
You mean, "HE better not have..." Because this is his own doing.
posted by Toddles at 11:03 PM on May 7, 2018 [92 favorites]
You know, I’ve actually thought this for a long while, but “harmless devaluing” of women by men in the bedroom, I don’t care if it’s “consensual” or not, it is not really harmless. It always seems to be co-located with men who abuse women, and it’s like - like this is racist, misogynist shit even if she didn’t immediately tell him it was messed up.
Selvaratnam, who was born in Sri Lanka, has dark skin, and she recalls that “he started calling me his ‘brown slave’ and demanding that I repeat that I was ‘his property.’ ”posted by corb at 11:26 PM on May 7, 2018 [24 favorites]
So who is up for replacing him?
I hear Preet Bharara needs a job
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 11:38 PM on May 7, 2018 [54 favorites]
I hear Preet Bharara needs a job
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 11:38 PM on May 7, 2018 [54 favorites]
Sigh. Gross. Way to undermine progress, genius.
posted by rokusan at 11:44 PM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by rokusan at 11:44 PM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
It super sucks that Schneiderman turned out to be a scumbag. I don't want to minimize that at all. But if there's a bright side to any of this, aside from another scumbag being tossed for his abuse of women, it's this: dude was gone in hours. Not days. Not after a protracted fight. Hours.
And yes, Republicans in the same situation would probably stay and fight and such. Yes, he should face charges and not just lose his job and then disappear. But I feel like this example still matters. It shows the momentum. Even if only half of our political spectrum is kicking these dirtbags out, that's better than what we had even just a couple years ago.
He was gone within hours. That seems like another crack in the wall, and I feel like it's worth remembering.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:44 PM on May 7, 2018 [87 favorites]
And yes, Republicans in the same situation would probably stay and fight and such. Yes, he should face charges and not just lose his job and then disappear. But I feel like this example still matters. It shows the momentum. Even if only half of our political spectrum is kicking these dirtbags out, that's better than what we had even just a couple years ago.
He was gone within hours. That seems like another crack in the wall, and I feel like it's worth remembering.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:44 PM on May 7, 2018 [87 favorites]
How long did Spitzer last?
posted by Going To Maine at 11:53 PM on May 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:53 PM on May 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Jesus christ, I sent him fan mail, and put the response on my mantel. I was so impressed by the crowdsourcing of the lawsuit/evidence against Time Warner. I'm so fucking depressed.
posted by unknowncommand at 1:11 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by unknowncommand at 1:11 AM on May 8, 2018
Shades of "Al Franken is too valuable." Get rid of them ALL.
Not just shades. A casual glance at #AlFranken on twitter shows no lack of #resistance folks claiming it as a Russian setup.
posted by ocular shenanigans at 1:50 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Not just shades. A casual glance at #AlFranken on twitter shows no lack of #resistance folks claiming it as a Russian setup.
posted by ocular shenanigans at 1:50 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
> unknowncommand:
"Jesus christ, I sent him fan mail, and put the response on my mantel. I was so impressed by the crowdsourcing of the lawsuit/evidence against Time Warner. I'm so fucking depressed."
Sadly, at least you now have a firestarter conveniently close.
posted by Samizdata at 1:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
"Jesus christ, I sent him fan mail, and put the response on my mantel. I was so impressed by the crowdsourcing of the lawsuit/evidence against Time Warner. I'm so fucking depressed."
Sadly, at least you now have a firestarter conveniently close.
posted by Samizdata at 1:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
This is so close to home right now. My daughter, who is very active in the arts and music communities in her city, was sexually abused by her ex-boyfriend multiple times and chose not to report it to the police (because she's finishing her PhD, because she is running an artists' co-operative, because she has a job - and no time/money for all the shit accusing someone legally involves, even if the stats about getting a conviction weren't so miserable) but because her ex works for another community organisation and is often at the same events she is at and because she is worried for the safety of women at those events, she made a (non-anonymous) complaint to that organisation. They ignored it. She followed up with another complaint later. They ignored it. So she told them that she was writing an article (and she's been published multiple times) about their lack of response.
She was not seeking punitive action against her ex, but a public stance from them about acceptable behaviour from their employees and volunteers. She hoped that they would set policy about this behaviour, and educate their staff and volunteers.
They met with her today, and have promised to take action (not against her ex,) but with policies, procedures and education.
Which is wonderful and so positive and great. But my dearest male friend (who is all about consent etc, likes my daughter, believes her and is disturbed by her ex's behaviour) is stuck on the concept that employers have no responsibility/duty of care for the actions their staff take out of hours, if there is no conviction. (He comes from a HR background, which I think is skewing his concepts). I'm all about "[organisation] won't want to be known as the place that predators work at", but we've agreed not to talk about it anymore because he just can't see what a positive difference it makes to the organisation when organisations refuse to accept unethical behaviour from their staff.
We have so far to go, but I am so proud of and grateful to the women and girls and other abused souls who take a stand and say "this isn't good enough." Their courage blows me away. I have lost count of the times I've been sexually assaulted and only once were the police involved (against my wishes), and it was so traumatic an event, I would never report an assault unless I knew it had been captured on camera. These women have similar experiences but they are fighting anyway, knowing the shit that will be thrown at them. They are just such magnificent people, to fight under these conditions. I am in awe.
posted by b33j at 2:40 AM on May 8, 2018 [44 favorites]
She was not seeking punitive action against her ex, but a public stance from them about acceptable behaviour from their employees and volunteers. She hoped that they would set policy about this behaviour, and educate their staff and volunteers.
They met with her today, and have promised to take action (not against her ex,) but with policies, procedures and education.
Which is wonderful and so positive and great. But my dearest male friend (who is all about consent etc, likes my daughter, believes her and is disturbed by her ex's behaviour) is stuck on the concept that employers have no responsibility/duty of care for the actions their staff take out of hours, if there is no conviction. (He comes from a HR background, which I think is skewing his concepts). I'm all about "[organisation] won't want to be known as the place that predators work at", but we've agreed not to talk about it anymore because he just can't see what a positive difference it makes to the organisation when organisations refuse to accept unethical behaviour from their staff.
We have so far to go, but I am so proud of and grateful to the women and girls and other abused souls who take a stand and say "this isn't good enough." Their courage blows me away. I have lost count of the times I've been sexually assaulted and only once were the police involved (against my wishes), and it was so traumatic an event, I would never report an assault unless I knew it had been captured on camera. These women have similar experiences but they are fighting anyway, knowing the shit that will be thrown at them. They are just such magnificent people, to fight under these conditions. I am in awe.
posted by b33j at 2:40 AM on May 8, 2018 [44 favorites]
Well, fuck this guy. You know who are actually expendable? Dirtbag abusers. Plenty of people could do what he's doing politically, and aren't horrible human beings who abuse their partners. I hope he's been sweating every night for months and years, waiting for this hammer to fall. I would love for him to face charges and don't see why he shouldn't, except that it would probably be hard to make them stick.
The public reaction here shouldn't be "you're too valuable to lose," it should be "we trusted you, you betrayed us, now suffer the consequences of your actions."
What's the procedure for getting a new AG? Any guesses who it might be?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:56 AM on May 8, 2018 [20 favorites]
The public reaction here shouldn't be "you're too valuable to lose," it should be "we trusted you, you betrayed us, now suffer the consequences of your actions."
What's the procedure for getting a new AG? Any guesses who it might be?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:56 AM on May 8, 2018 [20 favorites]
I can't find it again but last night I read a local piece that quoted two local political operatives/pundits/whatever who appeared on some TV program just after the report was published. One of them, a man, had worked with the AG before, called him by his first name, said he had never heard of any reports of such behaviour but that if it was true, the AG needed to resign. The other person, a woman, said she had heard about the AG's behaviour over the years. It was not news to her, and she pointed out that it was typical that she would have heard something but not the man. Grrrr. As a kinky person, I am deeply offended that this asshole was running around being violently abusive to women who did not share his kink. Naturally, I am outraged for all the usual reasons as well and I am so glad he is now out of office but fuck that guy and all the others like him. The kink part is just the cherry on the shit sandwich.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
Jesus Christ. With friends like these...! And a “top law enforcement official”! Will I ever stop laughing bitterly when these things come to light?
Remember when Jian Ghomeshi’s assaults were first made public and people were astounded? A million years ago now.
posted by GrammarMoses at 3:39 AM on May 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
Remember when Jian Ghomeshi’s assaults were first made public and people were astounded? A million years ago now.
posted by GrammarMoses at 3:39 AM on May 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
One thing that's interesting to me about this particular situation is that if you read between the lines of the articles that are coming out, it's pretty clear that at least some of what he was doing in these relationships was BDSM. Now, I want to be very clear: "nonconsentual BDSM" is rape, assault, and torture. But this sort of situation is something that responsible BDSM practitioners legitimately worry about: that an ex-partner will turn on them and accuse them of assault or rape over things that were 100% consensual at the time. The things that people who engage in BDSM do are often transgressive enough, and the motivations surrounding them are so complicated, that they're basically impossible to defend in public. People get up to some weird shit in the bedroom, often in the name of working out the weird, fucked-up demons that our society saddles all of us with in one way or another, and that should be OK as long as everybody involved is an informed and consenting adult. But it's well known that public opinion, the media, and the courts are unsympathetic.
This is all somewhat tangential to this particular case, of course. What we have here are multiple women saying that the things he did to them were not consensual, and I believe them. But that aspect of this particular case is interesting to me as a kinky person, and it will almost certainly either never be fully explored or else handled incredibly badly by the media if it is. I would honestly prefer the former option; this doesn't feel like a good moment in history to try and have a national conversation about the morality of BDSM, and I'd prefer it if the person trying to be a champion for the acceptability of kink wasn't actually an abusive scumbag. But the subtext is already there, and I thought it was worth pointing out.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:47 AM on May 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
This is all somewhat tangential to this particular case, of course. What we have here are multiple women saying that the things he did to them were not consensual, and I believe them. But that aspect of this particular case is interesting to me as a kinky person, and it will almost certainly either never be fully explored or else handled incredibly badly by the media if it is. I would honestly prefer the former option; this doesn't feel like a good moment in history to try and have a national conversation about the morality of BDSM, and I'd prefer it if the person trying to be a champion for the acceptability of kink wasn't actually an abusive scumbag. But the subtext is already there, and I thought it was worth pointing out.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:47 AM on May 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
I'm unhappy that Schneiderman is a milkshake duck.
I'm happy he didn't drag this out.
posted by mikelieman at 4:06 AM on May 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
I'm happy he didn't drag this out.
posted by mikelieman at 4:06 AM on May 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
He told the woman, a divorced mother, that professional women with big jobs and children had so many decisions to make that, when it came to sex, they secretly wanted men to take charge.Well hello again, toxic "alpha male" beliefs. So not surprised to see you here.
posted by clawsoon at 4:07 AM on May 8, 2018 [22 favorites]
Here are some possible AG candidates after Schneiderman’s resignation:
posted by enn at 4:15 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Likely candidates include City Public Advocate Letitia James; former U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara; Rep. Kathleen Rice (D-Nassau County); Fordham Law Prof. Zephyr Teachout; state Sen. Todd Kaminsky, a Nassau County Dem who is a former federal prosecutor; state Sen. Michael Gianaris (D-Queens); and former Cuomo chief of staff Ben Lawsky.Hard to imagine Cuomo allowing a Teachout appointment to go through.
posted by enn at 4:15 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hard to imagine Cuomo allowing a Teachout appointment to go through.
I'm skeptical too, but the optics wrt Cuomo appearing progressive would be great for him, and there's no obvious downside.
posted by mikelieman at 4:30 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm skeptical too, but the optics wrt Cuomo appearing progressive would be great for him, and there's no obvious downside.
posted by mikelieman at 4:30 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
So, in NYS the Solicitor General fills in until the appointment is made by the legislature.
From the Albany Times-Union piece today backgrounding Barbara Underwood.
posted by mikelieman at 4:38 AM on May 8, 2018 [16 favorites]
From the Albany Times-Union piece today backgrounding Barbara Underwood.
Barbara Underwood, who was appointed to her current post in January 2007, is a graduate of the Georgetown University Law Center and argued 20 cases before the United State Supreme Court, according to her government biography. She worked for the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of New York before her current role and from 1998 to 2001 was the acting-solicitor general and principal deputy solicitor general of the United States.Her bio is amazing. The legislature could let her fill-in until the General Election fills the seat. I would approve of that. And I would vote for her in November, if she chooses to run.
posted by mikelieman at 4:38 AM on May 8, 2018 [16 favorites]
mikelieman, I agree, there are reasons Teachout would be a good tactical move for him, but I just don't see him as the kind of guy who'd swallow his ego and put aside his grudge in that way. But I've learned that I am very bad at political prognostication, so who knows.
posted by enn at 4:40 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by enn at 4:40 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
When I read this article I was sick with just how precisely it hewed to my own abuse story. My abuser has a different name and did not pour alcohol down my throat but every. single. other. thing. was the same (although my ex did go a bit farther in a few occasions).
And that's why I'd really hesitate to make any parallels between this and BDSM. That is not what is going on here really at all and to draw those lines does a great disservice and injustice. It's frankly offensive.
I mean unless it's "kinky" to routinely tell a 90 pound woman she's fat, grotesque, and unlovable. Unless it's "a kink" to make death threats that are totally believable to the person hearing them.
This isn't kink, it's sociopathy. Calling this guy "kinky" absolutely minimizes the monsterous harm he and people like him do.
posted by sockermom at 4:47 AM on May 8, 2018 [61 favorites]
And that's why I'd really hesitate to make any parallels between this and BDSM. That is not what is going on here really at all and to draw those lines does a great disservice and injustice. It's frankly offensive.
I mean unless it's "kinky" to routinely tell a 90 pound woman she's fat, grotesque, and unlovable. Unless it's "a kink" to make death threats that are totally believable to the person hearing them.
This isn't kink, it's sociopathy. Calling this guy "kinky" absolutely minimizes the monsterous harm he and people like him do.
posted by sockermom at 4:47 AM on May 8, 2018 [61 favorites]
Like, if this is kink, the Golden State killer could also be cast as kinky. I'm not personally into BDSM but the people I know who are are like SUPER into consent. This is literally the opposite of that. Guys like this get off partly because it's not consensual. I have no doubt that men like this are not welcome in the BDSM community. This is abuse, not kink.
posted by sockermom at 4:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [33 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 4:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [33 favorites]
OK as long as everybody involved is an informed and consenting adult.
This is probably a derail, but I feel like we might be reaching the limits of meaningful consent when someone says "I want to be part of a domestic abuse scenario with real hitting and choking". Which to be very clear I'm not saying is what happened here: what ES did was actual abuse. I'm just not sure I can believe in a healthy consensual version of that scenario.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:10 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is probably a derail, but I feel like we might be reaching the limits of meaningful consent when someone says "I want to be part of a domestic abuse scenario with real hitting and choking". Which to be very clear I'm not saying is what happened here: what ES did was actual abuse. I'm just not sure I can believe in a healthy consensual version of that scenario.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:10 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
In my experience with BDSM, regardless of the level of expertise of your partner, you feel safe with the ones who are into consent.
posted by b33j at 5:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by b33j at 5:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Not to make this thread all about the kink angle, but there are certainly abusive people in kink just like there are everywhere else. Something can be kink and also abuse. The two are not mutually exclusive. I wish it were that simple, but it isn't.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [19 favorites]
One thing that's interesting to me about this particular situation is that if you read between the lines of the articles that are coming out, it's pretty clear that at least some of what he was doing in these relationships was BDSM. Now, I want to be very clear: "nonconsentual BDSM" is rape, assault, and torture. But this sort of situation is something that responsible BDSM practitioners legitimately worry about: that an ex-partner will turn on them and accuse them of assault or rape over things that were 100% consensual at the time.
Which is why many kinky people in general, and BDSM practitioners in particular, are exceedingly careful and clear about consent and boundaries. Which is a Good Thing.
As a kinky person, I am deeply offended that this asshole was running around being violently abusive to women who did not share his kink.
Indeed. If I had a nickel for every abusive dirtbag who claimed to be a "Dom" so he could practice abusive behavior and not get called out on it, I'd have many, many nickels.
I believe these women when they say they did not consent to being slapped around and such. I don't care what his position is in law enforcement or Democratic politics; I'm glad that he stepped down, at a minimum. We can do without Al Franken, and we can do without him.
posted by Gelatin at 5:37 AM on May 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
Which is why many kinky people in general, and BDSM practitioners in particular, are exceedingly careful and clear about consent and boundaries. Which is a Good Thing.
As a kinky person, I am deeply offended that this asshole was running around being violently abusive to women who did not share his kink.
Indeed. If I had a nickel for every abusive dirtbag who claimed to be a "Dom" so he could practice abusive behavior and not get called out on it, I'd have many, many nickels.
I believe these women when they say they did not consent to being slapped around and such. I don't care what his position is in law enforcement or Democratic politics; I'm glad that he stepped down, at a minimum. We can do without Al Franken, and we can do without him.
posted by Gelatin at 5:37 AM on May 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
I have no doubt that men like this are not welcome in the BDSM community.
In practice, there'd be a lot of noise about them not being welcome, but the community would nevertheless house a few about which there would be simultaneous whisper networks warning some women, and close friends of his defending him to hilt. At best, he'd be a missing stair. If he ever did do something obvious enough to get cast out, there'd always be a few more like him - some come, some go.
The bullshit of patriarchy and the ways in which it protects abusive men aren't magically absent from BDSM communities.
posted by Dysk at 5:47 AM on May 8, 2018 [33 favorites]
In practice, there'd be a lot of noise about them not being welcome, but the community would nevertheless house a few about which there would be simultaneous whisper networks warning some women, and close friends of his defending him to hilt. At best, he'd be a missing stair. If he ever did do something obvious enough to get cast out, there'd always be a few more like him - some come, some go.
The bullshit of patriarchy and the ways in which it protects abusive men aren't magically absent from BDSM communities.
posted by Dysk at 5:47 AM on May 8, 2018 [33 favorites]
I hope the consequences stick on this.
And let's be honest, there are few to any meaningful consequences here. Yes, he's resigned his job, and may in future have to take a marginally less prestigious and well paying job, though I doubt if he'll ever really be in trouble, or ever have to suffer earning as little as anything in the same order of magnitude as an average income. He will not suffer for this.
posted by Dysk at 5:49 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
And let's be honest, there are few to any meaningful consequences here. Yes, he's resigned his job, and may in future have to take a marginally less prestigious and well paying job, though I doubt if he'll ever really be in trouble, or ever have to suffer earning as little as anything in the same order of magnitude as an average income. He will not suffer for this.
posted by Dysk at 5:49 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yeah, Gelatin. I think what we have here is basically a rogue dom, someone who is kinky and dominant but is unwilling to take responsibility for expressing that in a safe and consensual way. Such people are extremely dangerous and also distressingly common.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:49 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:49 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm uncomfortable with how much of his behavior is being attributed to an underlying kinky nature when it's indistinguishable from violent misogyny.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:06 AM on May 8, 2018 [60 favorites]
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:06 AM on May 8, 2018 [60 favorites]
Scott Lemieux of Lawyers, Guns and Money has a post on the "But He's Too Valuable To Lose" subject: The Too-Valuable Myth:
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:12 AM on May 8, 2018 [33 favorites]
...it came up all the time during the Assassination of Al Franken by the Coward Kirsten Gillibrand and Absolutely Nobody Else, Just the Graspingly Ambitious Kirsten Gillibrand. Yes, finding an ambitious Democrat able to win re-election in a wave election in a blue-purple state is truly nature’s rarest commodity.)I've seen the "waah waah ratfuck" and "waah waah if Republicans can get away with it why shouldn't we" and of course "waah waah irreplaceable" posts, too. But what these people don't seem to get is that 1) very few people are actually irreplaceable, 2) the Democrats are the party of "the big tent" as well as honesty and integrity, and if we throw those out, we alienate our base and our voters, most of whom ARE women and/or people of color. If people want corrupt, abusive white guys they'll vote R, and 3) if we really are out someone who will be hard to replace and/or is some kind of amazeballs political talent, we need to cultivate a deeper bench and make it diverse. There's oodles of talent out there, and "talent" is not something that is inborn, you-have-it-or-you-don't except in rare cases (Barack Obama is probably one example) - it can and should be cultivated.
One of the factors that allows for powerful known abusers to keep abusing is the ability of white men to create the impression that they’re irreplaceable talents even when they’re hacks and mediocrities. Lottery winners like to tell themselves they’ve been rewarded by a perfect meritocracy even when there are plenty of people who could do their jobs as well or better. The ratings of their morning shows weren’t hurt when Lauer and Rose got canned, for example. The myth of the Irreplaceable White Guy helps justify and cover up a lot of terrible behavior.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:12 AM on May 8, 2018 [33 favorites]
So much of kink is indistinguishable from violent misogyny. Why exactly this is, is left as as an exercise for the reader.
posted by Dysk at 6:14 AM on May 8, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 6:14 AM on May 8, 2018 [13 favorites]
And yes, Republicans in the same situation would probably stay and fight and such.
Probably? Have you been watching what's happening in Missouri? The GOP could very well lose what they were seeing as one of their big opportunities to pick up a Senate seat because Eric Greitens will only leave the governor's mansion kicking and screaming.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:27 AM on May 8, 2018 [10 favorites]
Probably? Have you been watching what's happening in Missouri? The GOP could very well lose what they were seeing as one of their big opportunities to pick up a Senate seat because Eric Greitens will only leave the governor's mansion kicking and screaming.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:27 AM on May 8, 2018 [10 favorites]
At this point I just kind-of assume that ambitious men who like power and admiration are abusive fucks on the down-low. Schneiderman's aggressive, that's why he's a good lawyer -- and that's why litigators get divorced at much higher rates than average, because they don't confine that aggression to the courtroom. Or even the office, where they often yell at junior attorneys, paralegals, and secretaries. They take that aggression home and take it out on their partners.
I was also not surprised when Junot Diaz's stuff came out these past couple weeks. When I read his article about being abused as a child (which I thought was beautiful and an astonishing piece of work), I just assumed there would be women he had, in turn, abused. I mean, look at how much of a jackass he admitted to being to women he was dating -- imagine how much worse he must have been to women he wasn't. And of course he's a dude with a lot of buried rage from being abuse, and men take out their rage on women. It was 100% obvious that this driven, ambitious man, who likes being admired by his fans, who was coping with major rage from his own abuse, was abusing women. How else to cope with his rage and his need for control and importance?
I am rapidly approaching "mandatory ongoing psychotherapy for all men, they have a lot going on and need some help with it" and "only elect women, heterosexual men in positions of power are pretty universally terrible and the drive to power drives them not only to professional and political prominence, but to abusing women."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:52 AM on May 8, 2018 [32 favorites]
I was also not surprised when Junot Diaz's stuff came out these past couple weeks. When I read his article about being abused as a child (which I thought was beautiful and an astonishing piece of work), I just assumed there would be women he had, in turn, abused. I mean, look at how much of a jackass he admitted to being to women he was dating -- imagine how much worse he must have been to women he wasn't. And of course he's a dude with a lot of buried rage from being abuse, and men take out their rage on women. It was 100% obvious that this driven, ambitious man, who likes being admired by his fans, who was coping with major rage from his own abuse, was abusing women. How else to cope with his rage and his need for control and importance?
I am rapidly approaching "mandatory ongoing psychotherapy for all men, they have a lot going on and need some help with it" and "only elect women, heterosexual men in positions of power are pretty universally terrible and the drive to power drives them not only to professional and political prominence, but to abusing women."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:52 AM on May 8, 2018 [32 favorites]
The line between the two is the same as it is in any other sexual context: informed, enthusiastic, ongoing consent. Vanilla sex also becomes violent misogyny when consent is absent.
I do think this is only a portion of the problem here though. Some of the behavior Schneiderman's accusers describe is stuff that I can't really envision happening in a functional BDSM context. I don't know of anyone who gets off on being threatened with death if they try to leave their partner, for instance.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
I do think this is only a portion of the problem here though. Some of the behavior Schneiderman's accusers describe is stuff that I can't really envision happening in a functional BDSM context. I don't know of anyone who gets off on being threatened with death if they try to leave their partner, for instance.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think what we have here is basically a rogue dom, someone who is kinky and dominant but is unwilling to take responsibility for expressing that in a safe and consensual way.
I'm not in the kink community- at all- but a lot of this just seems garden-variety abuse, not kink. I don't think someone can meaningfully consent to losing 30 pounds to the point their hair falls out.
She says that he criticized how she looked and dressed, and “controlled what I ate.” Manning Barish, who is five feet seven, lost thirty pounds, falling to a hundred and three. In a photograph from the period, she looks emaciated; her hair, she recalls, started to fall out. Nevertheless, he squeezed her legs and called them “chubby.”
Sure, he seems to get off on dominating women. That's definitely true. But starving his girlfriends and physically forcing alcohol down their throats? it seems hard to believe someone could meaningfully consent to that.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:00 AM on May 8, 2018 [10 favorites]
I'm not in the kink community- at all- but a lot of this just seems garden-variety abuse, not kink. I don't think someone can meaningfully consent to losing 30 pounds to the point their hair falls out.
She says that he criticized how she looked and dressed, and “controlled what I ate.” Manning Barish, who is five feet seven, lost thirty pounds, falling to a hundred and three. In a photograph from the period, she looks emaciated; her hair, she recalls, started to fall out. Nevertheless, he squeezed her legs and called them “chubby.”
Sure, he seems to get off on dominating women. That's definitely true. But starving his girlfriends and physically forcing alcohol down their throats? it seems hard to believe someone could meaningfully consent to that.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:00 AM on May 8, 2018 [10 favorites]
(I mean, I know nobody's arguing they did consent. I'm saying it's hard for me to see a lot of it as kink even in the alternate universe in which they had)
posted by BungaDunga at 7:00 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by BungaDunga at 7:00 AM on May 8, 2018
Motherfucker.
This better not fuck up the NY State backstop against Trump & Co.'s pardon power.
I get that there are a lot of things going on and that this is very very important but I don't love that so often the first thought (or at least first public reaction) when something like this happens is not "I hope those women are being supported the way they deserve after a horrible experience when lots of people are going to be out for their blood" or "wow being a woman is dangerous and awful" or even "I'm glad we are getting rid of more abusers" (which still focuses on men) but is about a more abstract issue than the actual bad things that these women have experienced and will experience.
I totally get it and I'm not trying to target/call out anyone, but I think it's worth considering what our initial reaction as individuals and a community say about how much we prioritize the well-being of women, especially women who are victims of harassment and assault. Yes, fighting Trump is extremely extremely extremely important, but these women are important too.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:01 AM on May 8, 2018 [29 favorites]
This better not fuck up the NY State backstop against Trump & Co.'s pardon power.
I get that there are a lot of things going on and that this is very very important but I don't love that so often the first thought (or at least first public reaction) when something like this happens is not "I hope those women are being supported the way they deserve after a horrible experience when lots of people are going to be out for their blood" or "wow being a woman is dangerous and awful" or even "I'm glad we are getting rid of more abusers" (which still focuses on men) but is about a more abstract issue than the actual bad things that these women have experienced and will experience.
I totally get it and I'm not trying to target/call out anyone, but I think it's worth considering what our initial reaction as individuals and a community say about how much we prioritize the well-being of women, especially women who are victims of harassment and assault. Yes, fighting Trump is extremely extremely extremely important, but these women are important too.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:01 AM on May 8, 2018 [29 favorites]
I just deleted a longer version of this comment but both of the things you describe do relate to existing kinks that both doms and subs are sometimes into. They wouldn't be done that way in a responsible context (not even with consent) but I have no problem believing that people have fantasies about that sort of stuff, because I've met them.
The spectrum of scary-sounding (and genuinely scary) things that people get off on is very broad.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:10 AM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
The spectrum of scary-sounding (and genuinely scary) things that people get off on is very broad.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:10 AM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
I am rapidly approaching "mandatory ongoing psychotherapy for all men, they have a lot going on and need some help with it" and "only elect women, heterosexual men in positions of power are pretty universally terrible and the drive to power drives them not only to professional and political prominence, but to abusing women."
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
See Also: "When will there be enough women on the Supreme Court? Justice Ginsburg answers that question"
posted by mikelieman at 7:16 AM on May 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
See Also: "When will there be enough women on the Supreme Court? Justice Ginsburg answers that question"
posted by mikelieman at 7:16 AM on May 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
State Solicitor Barbara Underwood named Schneiderman's replacement. I hope she does a great job, and, hooray for Schneiderman being replaced by a woman!
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:18 AM on May 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:18 AM on May 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
Excellent, that sounds like just about the best possible outcome. I think replacing dirtbag men with women should be done whenever possible, and from comments above it sounds like Underwood is a great person to have in the spot. I hope she can continue the excellent work that Schneiderman was doing in public, without privately making other people's lives a living hell. Hopefully she'll be effective in her post and get to stay there.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
And hopefully it'll help put to rest the "But this awful, awful man is so valuable!" argument. There are other qualified people out there who can do this work and they should be given a chance to do it. Schneiderman may have been doing good things in his role as NY AG, but he's not a fucking unicorn.
Abusive men are expendable.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:27 AM on May 8, 2018 [25 favorites]
Abusive men are expendable.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:27 AM on May 8, 2018 [25 favorites]
The line between the two is the same as it is in any other sexual context: informed, enthusiastic, ongoing consent. Vanilla sex also becomes violent misogyny when consent is absent.
I agree with the second sentence wholeheartedly - but the first is too simple. That is, I don't think that a woman's consent means misogyny has been removed from the scenario. The ways in which our desires are influenced by society are complex.
And while there are good, understandable reasons that people who are into kink shouldn't be stigmatized just for that, many people who are into kink, for some reason, like to roleplay violent misogyny. There is a fine line between normalizing kink and normalizing violent misogyny. I'm not sure where it is, but I think describing Schneider as a "kinky" or a "rogue dom" or whatever crosses it.
Like, the other day I was looking for some pornography. I wasn't looking for anything kinky - just two people fuckin'. My search results were wall-to-wall simulated abuse of women. I don't think that kind of content exists in a vacuum. I don't think men's desires to view that content exists in a vacuum. I don't think there is a clear line between the misogyny in those videos and the misogyny women experience from their partners, and that that line is "consent."
Or let me put it this way: I don't think that if Schneider joined the BDSM community and started following good practices surrounding consent that he would suddenly stop being a violent misogynist.
Where does that leave men who really want to act out these kinds of scenarios but genuinely care about the wellbeing of their partners? Fuck if I know. I'll leave that up to their partners. I do know, though, that Schneider is categorically not that type of man - and I don't think that his behavior should be diminished or normalized by attributing it to "kink," even if we're clear it's not responsible kink.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:35 AM on May 8, 2018 [26 favorites]
I agree with the second sentence wholeheartedly - but the first is too simple. That is, I don't think that a woman's consent means misogyny has been removed from the scenario. The ways in which our desires are influenced by society are complex.
And while there are good, understandable reasons that people who are into kink shouldn't be stigmatized just for that, many people who are into kink, for some reason, like to roleplay violent misogyny. There is a fine line between normalizing kink and normalizing violent misogyny. I'm not sure where it is, but I think describing Schneider as a "kinky" or a "rogue dom" or whatever crosses it.
Like, the other day I was looking for some pornography. I wasn't looking for anything kinky - just two people fuckin'. My search results were wall-to-wall simulated abuse of women. I don't think that kind of content exists in a vacuum. I don't think men's desires to view that content exists in a vacuum. I don't think there is a clear line between the misogyny in those videos and the misogyny women experience from their partners, and that that line is "consent."
Or let me put it this way: I don't think that if Schneider joined the BDSM community and started following good practices surrounding consent that he would suddenly stop being a violent misogynist.
Where does that leave men who really want to act out these kinds of scenarios but genuinely care about the wellbeing of their partners? Fuck if I know. I'll leave that up to their partners. I do know, though, that Schneider is categorically not that type of man - and I don't think that his behavior should be diminished or normalized by attributing it to "kink," even if we're clear it's not responsible kink.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:35 AM on May 8, 2018 [26 favorites]
I mean, some people like to roleplay being a kidnapper. But we wouldn't call a random kidnapper "kinky."
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:37 AM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:37 AM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Kutsuwamushi: I mean, some people like to roleplay being a kidnapper. But we wouldn't call a random kidnapper "kinky."
The important part is "informed consent". Something lacking in Schniederman. ( getting waterboarded if you WANT TO BE isn't torture, for example ).
That is why -- despite people tossing them in the same set -- why this is materially different than Elliot Spitzer. Spitzer was a hypocrite, yes, prosecuting prostitution while being a customer. But, in retrospect, that's is pretty weak sauce these days, and maybe he can run for AG again?
Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The: I hope she can continue the excellent work that Schneiderman was doing in public, without privately making other people's lives a living hell. Hopefully she'll be effective in her post and get to stay there.
My opinion is that Barbara Underwood is OVERQUALIFIED. She should have a seat on the US Supreme Court.
posted by mikelieman at 7:51 AM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
The important part is "informed consent". Something lacking in Schniederman. ( getting waterboarded if you WANT TO BE isn't torture, for example ).
That is why -- despite people tossing them in the same set -- why this is materially different than Elliot Spitzer. Spitzer was a hypocrite, yes, prosecuting prostitution while being a customer. But, in retrospect, that's is pretty weak sauce these days, and maybe he can run for AG again?
Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The: I hope she can continue the excellent work that Schneiderman was doing in public, without privately making other people's lives a living hell. Hopefully she'll be effective in her post and get to stay there.
My opinion is that Barbara Underwood is OVERQUALIFIED. She should have a seat on the US Supreme Court.
posted by mikelieman at 7:51 AM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Kutsuwamushi, I agree that there is a conversation to be had around that stuff. However my experience here on MetaFilter is that it's a conversation that does not go well here. Suffice it to say that your concerns are valid. You're not the first person to have them, and it's a genuinely difficult and complicated subject that is also on some level an individual, internal conversation that kinky people often wrestle with throughout their lives. I apologize if anything I said above came off as apologizing for Schneiderman's behavior, or minimizing the severity of his crimes. These are genuinely treacherous waters to try and navigate and I doubt if I personally am up to the task of doing that effectively in this forum.
I've already done a lot more talking about this subject than I wanted to. The central issue here should be Schneiderman's abusive behavior and its fallout. The kink angle is secondary to all that. I didn't want it to take over the thread like this, and I'm kinda sorry I brought it up at all.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've already done a lot more talking about this subject than I wanted to. The central issue here should be Schneiderman's abusive behavior and its fallout. The kink angle is secondary to all that. I didn't want it to take over the thread like this, and I'm kinda sorry I brought it up at all.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Just FYI after talking to someone close to the situation, I understand that Barbara Underwood became acting AG by operation of law until the Legislature acts to install an interim AG. That could be a day or a week, but is not expected to be a significant time period. That said, she definitely could be named to that role as well, but the current status is very temporary.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:54 AM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:54 AM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
I agree with the second sentence wholeheartedly - but the first is too simple. That is, I don't think that a woman's consent means misogyny has been removed from the scenario. The ways in which our desires are influenced by society are complex.
Yeah, this. And I think that sometimes we rush from one reaction to another. For a very, very long time, anything other than missionary-style heterosexual sense was demonized and stigmatized, and people with many completely valid desires were shamed for having them, and they stayed closeted for years and it really affected them deeply.
And so the reaction to that, unfortunately, has been "no one's kink is shameful or bad, every kink is equally valid as long as there is consent." But the question of whether people can validly consent -especially in this damaged world of ours- to seriously abusive and threatening behavior is a real one. Can people validly consent to being told they are ugly and need to modify their body in order to be attractive, for example? Can people consent to being threatened? Does that consent need to be affirmative and expressed beforehand? And how do you separate consent from power dynamics?
And one of the things that I think is complex and unpleasant - but deeply, deeply necessary - in the land of #MeToo is a deeper understanding of what consent means in a world which is still deeply patriarchal. What if you 'consent' only because you're afraid of what will happen if you don't consent? What if you 'consent' because you're disoriented by what's happening, and the guy seemed like a nice guy and so many other people can't be wrong and so it must be just a harmless thing, and shouldn't you be more liberated enough to understand it's within the normal variations? What if you consent because you're afraid because of the man's body language of what he will do if you don't?
posted by corb at 8:09 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
Yeah, this. And I think that sometimes we rush from one reaction to another. For a very, very long time, anything other than missionary-style heterosexual sense was demonized and stigmatized, and people with many completely valid desires were shamed for having them, and they stayed closeted for years and it really affected them deeply.
And so the reaction to that, unfortunately, has been "no one's kink is shameful or bad, every kink is equally valid as long as there is consent." But the question of whether people can validly consent -especially in this damaged world of ours- to seriously abusive and threatening behavior is a real one. Can people validly consent to being told they are ugly and need to modify their body in order to be attractive, for example? Can people consent to being threatened? Does that consent need to be affirmative and expressed beforehand? And how do you separate consent from power dynamics?
And one of the things that I think is complex and unpleasant - but deeply, deeply necessary - in the land of #MeToo is a deeper understanding of what consent means in a world which is still deeply patriarchal. What if you 'consent' only because you're afraid of what will happen if you don't consent? What if you 'consent' because you're disoriented by what's happening, and the guy seemed like a nice guy and so many other people can't be wrong and so it must be just a harmless thing, and shouldn't you be more liberated enough to understand it's within the normal variations? What if you consent because you're afraid because of the man's body language of what he will do if you don't?
posted by corb at 8:09 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
The important part is "informed consent". Something lacking in Schniederman.
Please read my comment more carefully. This isn't a response to it, and I don't need to be explained the importance of consent.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Please read my comment more carefully. This isn't a response to it, and I don't need to be explained the importance of consent.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
People (of all genders—let's remember that not all doms are men, and also that subs are people with their own agency who are not just going along with things to please their partner) do actively seek out sex play in which they are humiliated and threatened, yes, for a variety of individual reasons. I suppose you could interview a bunch of subs and then pass judgment on whether or not their consent is valid, but I'm not sure why anyone would think it's their business to do that. In any case, I think you'd find that exploring, processing, and disrupting the effects of internalized misogyny is often a big part of it. These are things that many kinky people give a great deal of thought to and there's no one-size-fits-all answer. It comes down to individual people's reasons for why they personally want the kind of sex that they do.
It's also not really relevant here, because Schneiderman's partners did not consent to the things that he did to them.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:34 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's also not really relevant here, because Schneiderman's partners did not consent to the things that he did to them.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:34 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Granted my experience with the kink community was about 20 years ago. One of the things I experienced was a fair bit of pressure to be more. On the one hand, limits were negotiated and respected, but on the other there was an assumption that I'd be open to experiment with those limits as the relationship develops. My partner at the time had some other issues with boundaries, and it didn't end well after situations where I was nagged and wheedled into a scene. In my experience both the claims that responsible kinksters talk all of those issues out, and that kink is a gateway for people to manipulate consent are both true to different degrees.
The suggestion of mandatory medicalization suggested above bothers me. Partly because I think the medicalization of my abuse recovery contributes to the very real stigmas and difficulties in talking about the abuse. And also because it's critically important that I have the option to walk out of a patient/provider relationship that doesn't meet my needs.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:37 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
The suggestion of mandatory medicalization suggested above bothers me. Partly because I think the medicalization of my abuse recovery contributes to the very real stigmas and difficulties in talking about the abuse. And also because it's critically important that I have the option to walk out of a patient/provider relationship that doesn't meet my needs.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:37 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's also possible for bottoms to verbally, emotionally, or economically coerce tops. So that happens although you see it less often.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:51 AM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:51 AM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
I've seen up close a BDSM relationship that was indistinguishable from abuse on the outside. I had lengthy conversations with the woman (the sub/"slave") to establish that it really was consensual, and I believed her, but hoo boy it was difficult to watch.
That said I have no doubt the women in the article were straight-up abused. I've been around a lot of kinky people and I've never seen anyone renege on what was a consensual encounter/relationship. And no one consents to being slapped so hard it leaves marks with zero discussion beforehand.
posted by AFABulous at 8:52 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
That said I have no doubt the women in the article were straight-up abused. I've been around a lot of kinky people and I've never seen anyone renege on what was a consensual encounter/relationship. And no one consents to being slapped so hard it leaves marks with zero discussion beforehand.
posted by AFABulous at 8:52 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Just to continue the kink derail, one of the things that stood out for me was how Schniederman was doing this stuff while out of his mind on alcohol and drugs. Which is just the reddest of red flags. You don't need to argue the finer points of consent when the guy is so fucked up that he's barely conscious. At that point it's just bad bad bad and nowhere near the realm of anything acceptable.
posted by Balna Watya at 8:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Balna Watya at 8:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Please read my comment more carefully. This isn't a response to it, and I don't need to be explained the importance of consent.
My apologies, it wasn't meant to be a discourse on informed consent, but more a discourse on why can't we have Spitzer back? All these people, whose acts weren't BAD had to go, so can't we just move forward ignoring their issues.
Again, I apologize for not being clearer.
posted by mikelieman at 8:57 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
My apologies, it wasn't meant to be a discourse on informed consent, but more a discourse on why can't we have Spitzer back? All these people, whose acts weren't BAD had to go, so can't we just move forward ignoring their issues.
Again, I apologize for not being clearer.
posted by mikelieman at 8:57 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
That is why -- despite people tossing them in the same set -- why this is materially different than Elliot Spitzer. Spitzer was a hypocrite, yes, prosecuting prostitution while being a customer. But, in retrospect, that's is pretty weak sauce these days, and maybe he can run for AG again?
Yep. I was just commenting to my husband last night that Spitzer's scandal seems positively quaint now. He was AG before; I wouldn't be especially sorry to see him in that office again.
posted by holborne at 9:03 AM on May 8, 2018
Yep. I was just commenting to my husband last night that Spitzer's scandal seems positively quaint now. He was AG before; I wouldn't be especially sorry to see him in that office again.
posted by holborne at 9:03 AM on May 8, 2018
This is the part that stood out to me:
I'm just...tired of men. I want Crone Island.
posted by Salieri at 9:05 AM on May 8, 2018 [46 favorites]
She finally freed herself and got back on her feet. “I was crying and in shock,” she says. She recalls shouting, “Are you crazy?” To her astonishment, Schneiderman accused her of scratching him. At one point—she can’t remember if it was at this moment or in a later conversation—he told her, “You know, hitting an officer of the law is a felony.”What an absolute piece of shit. This wasn't kink-gone-wrong, this was a straight-up garbage misogynistic power move.
I'm just...tired of men. I want Crone Island.
posted by Salieri at 9:05 AM on May 8, 2018 [46 favorites]
Baina Watya: ust to continue the kink derail, one of the things that stood out for me was how Schniederman was doing this stuff while out of his mind on alcohol and drugs. Which is just the reddest of red flags. You don't need to argue the finer points of consent when the guy is so fucked up that he's barely conscious.
Heavy drinking and alcoholism play a huge part in domestic abuse of all stripes (partners, children, elderly/disabled). It also plays a very large role in fraternity date rape. Heavy drinking and consent do not mix - on the part of the abuser, not just "but she was drinking!" People do all sorts of things when blackout drunk or because alcoholism has rotted their brains.
This is not excusing Schneiderman at all; in fact, it sounds like he needed to go to rehab years ago and then stay in a recovery program. We need lots more and better rehab, because problem drinking, rape, and domestic abuse go hand in hand.
Wishing Barbara Underwood all the best in her new position, whether she decides to run later or not. As for the hand-wringing despair-mongers, these kind of investigations go on no matter who is actually AG. There are tons of people actually working on such cases - assistant AGs, other lawyers, legal assistants, secretaries, etc. No-one is indispensable, no-one is a unicorn, no-one in real life is Perry Mason (and if Perry left his office, Della Street and Paul Drake could have brought up his successor to speed ASAP).
And no, we don't need Eliot Spitzer back, ffs. This "Myth Of The Irreplaceable White Male Talent" needs to die. Lots of people with squeaky clean pasts and no in-office scandals have what it takes to be AG.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:07 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
Heavy drinking and alcoholism play a huge part in domestic abuse of all stripes (partners, children, elderly/disabled). It also plays a very large role in fraternity date rape. Heavy drinking and consent do not mix - on the part of the abuser, not just "but she was drinking!" People do all sorts of things when blackout drunk or because alcoholism has rotted their brains.
This is not excusing Schneiderman at all; in fact, it sounds like he needed to go to rehab years ago and then stay in a recovery program. We need lots more and better rehab, because problem drinking, rape, and domestic abuse go hand in hand.
Wishing Barbara Underwood all the best in her new position, whether she decides to run later or not. As for the hand-wringing despair-mongers, these kind of investigations go on no matter who is actually AG. There are tons of people actually working on such cases - assistant AGs, other lawyers, legal assistants, secretaries, etc. No-one is indispensable, no-one is a unicorn, no-one in real life is Perry Mason (and if Perry left his office, Della Street and Paul Drake could have brought up his successor to speed ASAP).
And no, we don't need Eliot Spitzer back, ffs. This "Myth Of The Irreplaceable White Male Talent" needs to die. Lots of people with squeaky clean pasts and no in-office scandals have what it takes to be AG.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:07 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
( getting waterboarded if you WANT TO BE isn't torture, for example ).
We should come up with a different name for consensual-but-possibly-fatal interactions than "kinky." You can kill someone by choking them, even if they want it. You can kill someone with knife play if you don't know what you're doing. It would totally be abusive if I did those things, even if someone was begging me to (which has actually happened), especially if I was under the influence of drugs or alcohol, because I could kill them.
I don't care if he produces video statements and notarized contracts from these women that they consented. Choking someone while blind drunk is assault, period. Remember that cannibal guy in Germany, whose victim apparently consented to being chopped up and eaten? Was that okay? Fuck no.
posted by AFABulous at 9:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
We should come up with a different name for consensual-but-possibly-fatal interactions than "kinky." You can kill someone by choking them, even if they want it. You can kill someone with knife play if you don't know what you're doing. It would totally be abusive if I did those things, even if someone was begging me to (which has actually happened), especially if I was under the influence of drugs or alcohol, because I could kill them.
I don't care if he produces video statements and notarized contracts from these women that they consented. Choking someone while blind drunk is assault, period. Remember that cannibal guy in Germany, whose victim apparently consented to being chopped up and eaten? Was that okay? Fuck no.
posted by AFABulous at 9:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
uh, to be clear, the begging happened, not the act
posted by AFABulous at 9:12 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 9:12 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Remember that cannibal guy in Germany, whose victim apparently consented to being chopped up and eaten? Was that okay? Fuck no.
iirc people here defended it as a valid kink but i might be conflating that thread with the fried penis dinner party thread.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:13 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
iirc people here defended it as a valid kink but i might be conflating that thread with the fried penis dinner party thread.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:13 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
We have lots of excellent legal minds around who are not criminals or white men and would be great at the job with all its very specific importance right now.
I mean, if you want to stunt cast the replacement, I can think of an experienced New York resident who would at the very least cause Trump and Giuliani to shit their pants (for the first time that day, anyway) until they're full from shoes to belt.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:14 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
I mean, if you want to stunt cast the replacement, I can think of an experienced New York resident who would at the very least cause Trump and Giuliani to shit their pants (for the first time that day, anyway) until they're full from shoes to belt.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:14 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also, like, once again ... I feel that a discussion about "here is a set of real women who were really abused, really" has quickly turned into "but some men may like to be dominant in bed and we must not forget that sometimes things might look abusive are actually perfectly fine ways for these type of men to get their rocks off."
Like, when, when will the rights of real women trump the sexual desires of imagined men? When?
posted by sockermom at 9:14 AM on May 8, 2018 [61 favorites]
Like, when, when will the rights of real women trump the sexual desires of imagined men? When?
posted by sockermom at 9:14 AM on May 8, 2018 [61 favorites]
Having no deep or up-close knowledge about it, I can't say if the BSDM community is not substantially more/less toxic than any other on this front. One good thing it has going for it is a framework of mutual consent. In theory, there isn't the same "But if we talk about what we do and don't want to do, the magic is gone" narrative that is rife in "normal" sex culture. In practice, well: this two-faced evil man. (Two-faced in his support for MeToo, at least. Meanwhile do we actually know whether he was ever part of some kink community at all?)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:15 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:15 AM on May 8, 2018
Lyn Never, I'm intrigued. Who did you have in mind? PM me if you don't want to say it on an open forum.
posted by Mogur at 9:20 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by Mogur at 9:20 AM on May 8, 2018
Also, like, once again ... I feel that a discussion about "here is a set of real women who were really abused, really" has quickly turned into "but some men may like to be dominant in bed and we must not forget that sometimes things might look abusive are actually perfectly fine ways for these type of men to get their rocks off."
CO-SIGNED.
And as for bringing back Eliot Spitzer - while by comparison he comes out looking like the more attractive option, his mis-step isn't quite as simple as "he used a prostitute". In fact, it would be refreshing if all that happened was that he was a john. But he wasn't "just a john" - he was a john who also violated the Mann Act, and committed money laundering and identity theft to cover his tracks.
And then there's the other scandal that people forget about, where he asked the NYPD to keep special records of a political opponents' whereabouts when they were on his security detail inside the city.
So yeah, let's maybe not bring him back.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:25 AM on May 8, 2018 [22 favorites]
CO-SIGNED.
And as for bringing back Eliot Spitzer - while by comparison he comes out looking like the more attractive option, his mis-step isn't quite as simple as "he used a prostitute". In fact, it would be refreshing if all that happened was that he was a john. But he wasn't "just a john" - he was a john who also violated the Mann Act, and committed money laundering and identity theft to cover his tracks.
And then there's the other scandal that people forget about, where he asked the NYPD to keep special records of a political opponents' whereabouts when they were on his security detail inside the city.
So yeah, let's maybe not bring him back.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:25 AM on May 8, 2018 [22 favorites]
Ronan Farrow is on a roll. I saw him speak at a commencement address this past Saturday morning and he was at once impressive and down-to-Earth.
posted by bz at 9:28 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by bz at 9:28 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hillary is who I mean.
I can't say if the BSDM community is not substantially more/less toxic than any other on this front. One good thing it has going for it is a framework of mutual consent. In theory, there isn't the same "But if we talk about what we do and don't want to do, the magic is gone" narrative that is rife in "normal" sex culture. In practice, well: this two-faced evil man.
The Community, such as it were, is rife with (generally) straight white men (with white women a close runner-up) who are there to lip-service the rules and go about their predation unobstructed. And they often easily cruise into leadership roles so they're mostly protected from any consequences. It's so easy to create a performative miasma of consent over abuse when you're default presumed to be control, and they're drawn to the scene because it's fish in a barrel for them. Consent is complicated because it's so easy to gaslight and manipulate, and that's still true even in deeply queer communities (again, it's so attractive to all kinds of predators and manipulators) though it does not always manifest in the same ways and I would say overall most queer communities have a baseline understanding of consent that's a lot richer than straight circles.
It's unlikely Schneiderman was ever treasurer of the local leather society or a frequenter of munches, so he was probably never one of Those Guys in some specific scene. Most of these guys don't want competition or can't afford the visibility or just aren't interested in a social scene, so they just go out with whatever women they want and then pull that "this is just how I am so you have to do it" thing, and bank on the women not knowing enough to know how to protest or being too startled to be noncompliant. Lots of people are legitimately kinky without a membership card or social events, and lots of people are legitimately abusive and claim kinky when they're caught. (Which, if there's any justice, will forever be known as the Ghomeshi Defense.)
posted by Lyn Never at 9:46 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
I can't say if the BSDM community is not substantially more/less toxic than any other on this front. One good thing it has going for it is a framework of mutual consent. In theory, there isn't the same "But if we talk about what we do and don't want to do, the magic is gone" narrative that is rife in "normal" sex culture. In practice, well: this two-faced evil man.
The Community, such as it were, is rife with (generally) straight white men (with white women a close runner-up) who are there to lip-service the rules and go about their predation unobstructed. And they often easily cruise into leadership roles so they're mostly protected from any consequences. It's so easy to create a performative miasma of consent over abuse when you're default presumed to be control, and they're drawn to the scene because it's fish in a barrel for them. Consent is complicated because it's so easy to gaslight and manipulate, and that's still true even in deeply queer communities (again, it's so attractive to all kinds of predators and manipulators) though it does not always manifest in the same ways and I would say overall most queer communities have a baseline understanding of consent that's a lot richer than straight circles.
It's unlikely Schneiderman was ever treasurer of the local leather society or a frequenter of munches, so he was probably never one of Those Guys in some specific scene. Most of these guys don't want competition or can't afford the visibility or just aren't interested in a social scene, so they just go out with whatever women they want and then pull that "this is just how I am so you have to do it" thing, and bank on the women not knowing enough to know how to protest or being too startled to be noncompliant. Lots of people are legitimately kinky without a membership card or social events, and lots of people are legitimately abusive and claim kinky when they're caught. (Which, if there's any justice, will forever be known as the Ghomeshi Defense.)
posted by Lyn Never at 9:46 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
It would be nice if we could talk about the actual case and the women perhaps rather than how this might affect other communities or other currently extraneous things. As far as we know he’s just making that up to excuse himself - I have no idea why people would think he is being honest in any way about anything let alone his sexual preferences.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 9:49 AM on May 8, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by lesbiassparrow at 9:49 AM on May 8, 2018 [15 favorites]
Much as it would be a delightful neener, I think Hilary as the AG would be a mistake because of not having had prosecutorial experience. Surely there is another better-qualified woman?
And the continuing discussion of the kink community in relation to this case is a red herring and is starting to feel to me like kinkshaming - and I'm not even a member of that particular community.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
And the continuing discussion of the kink community in relation to this case is a red herring and is starting to feel to me like kinkshaming - and I'm not even a member of that particular community.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think Hillary is a bad choice because she could never have anything to do with prosecuting anyone in the Trump universe without the right screeching about political motivation.
posted by AFABulous at 9:58 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by AFABulous at 9:58 AM on May 8, 2018
I think Hillary is a bad choice because she could never have anything to do with prosecuting anyone in the Trump universe without the right screeching about political motivation.
I think it might be time to focus on avoiding impropriety and what a reasonable observer would call an appearance of impropriety, but there's no way to get justice without loud and protracted screeching. HRC might fall afoul of the second criterion, I suspect, because prosecution is a specialized skill set in which she does not have experience*. But then, I have checked and I am not in charge of any political appointments at all.
*I am a big fan of new blood in DA's offices to change the culture of prosecution, but that's a whole derail.
posted by The Gaffer at 10:04 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think it might be time to focus on avoiding impropriety and what a reasonable observer would call an appearance of impropriety, but there's no way to get justice without loud and protracted screeching. HRC might fall afoul of the second criterion, I suspect, because prosecution is a specialized skill set in which she does not have experience*. But then, I have checked and I am not in charge of any political appointments at all.
*I am a big fan of new blood in DA's offices to change the culture of prosecution, but that's a whole derail.
posted by The Gaffer at 10:04 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
While appointing Hillary Clinton as new AG would be karmically satisfying, I don't want the three-ring circus that will inevitably ensue. Barbara Underwood seems like a great interim choice. When it comes down to elections, there should be plenty of qualified candidates.
Meanwhile, the Trump investigation goes on, because the actual AG is only the public face. The real behind-the-scenes hard work is done by the assistant AGs and the staff, who will be toiling on unless and until the plug is pulled on that investigation.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:14 AM on May 8, 2018
Meanwhile, the Trump investigation goes on, because the actual AG is only the public face. The real behind-the-scenes hard work is done by the assistant AGs and the staff, who will be toiling on unless and until the plug is pulled on that investigation.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:14 AM on May 8, 2018
And the continuing discussion of the kink community in relation to this case is a red herring and is starting to feel to me like kinkshaming - and I'm not even a member of that particular community.
It doesn't seem as much kink shaming as another way cases about the abuse of women suddenly becomes about other things. Every. Single. Time.
HRC is also completely irrelevant surely to this discussion? Except as insofar as this piece of work thought he was going to get a plum office under her and apparently that sent him further off the deep end:
"His emotional state seemed to worsen after the 2016 Presidential election. He had counted on forging an ambitious partnership with a White House led by Hillary Clinton."
Clinton is not the only woman in existence nor the only person we need to suggest for everything.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 10:17 AM on May 8, 2018 [22 favorites]
It doesn't seem as much kink shaming as another way cases about the abuse of women suddenly becomes about other things. Every. Single. Time.
HRC is also completely irrelevant surely to this discussion? Except as insofar as this piece of work thought he was going to get a plum office under her and apparently that sent him further off the deep end:
"His emotional state seemed to worsen after the 2016 Presidential election. He had counted on forging an ambitious partnership with a White House led by Hillary Clinton."
Clinton is not the only woman in existence nor the only person we need to suggest for everything.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 10:17 AM on May 8, 2018 [22 favorites]
For the love of God can we please please please drop the kink derail which is somehow managing to center the desires of violent misogynst men like Scheinerman over the women he preyed on while also ignoring the agency, desires, and existence of informed, adult, and powerful women. It's shitty to assault survivors and shitty to kinky women (many of whom, I might add, are sometimes one and the same.) This is deeply complex psychological and sociological stuff and if we want to talk about it can we do so in a new thread that is not about a high profile abuser with a great deal of political fallout? Please?
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:22 AM on May 8, 2018 [40 favorites]
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:22 AM on May 8, 2018 [40 favorites]
he told her, “You know, hitting an officer of the law is a felony
The majority of women in prison have been victims of physical and/or sexual abuse. Often the available options and attempts to escape the abuse will put a survivor at risk of arrest and incarceration. Obviously, this risk is substantially increased if the abuser is a cop or prosecutor or Attorney General.
The Brooklyn Bail Fund is participating in the National Bail Out for mother's day, if you're looking for a good place to direct some spare dollars this week. Survived and Punished has numerous resources on this topic as well.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:26 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
The majority of women in prison have been victims of physical and/or sexual abuse. Often the available options and attempts to escape the abuse will put a survivor at risk of arrest and incarceration. Obviously, this risk is substantially increased if the abuser is a cop or prosecutor or Attorney General.
The Brooklyn Bail Fund is participating in the National Bail Out for mother's day, if you're looking for a good place to direct some spare dollars this week. Survived and Punished has numerous resources on this topic as well.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:26 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
Yeah, I'm happy to drop it and I'm sorry for bringing it up at all. I should have known that there was no way to mention it without it taking over the thread. Someday it might be worth having an FPP about kink stuff but this isn't that.
I'm very glad Schneiderman has fallen, and I hope he keeps on falling all the way to rock bottom.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:36 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm very glad Schneiderman has fallen, and I hope he keeps on falling all the way to rock bottom.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:36 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Teachout is indeed seriously considering a run for the AG spot. Here's hoping.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:46 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:46 AM on May 8, 2018
Who do people prefer as a successor, Teachout or Underwood?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:53 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:53 AM on May 8, 2018
And this is why I'm on Metafilter and not Daily Kos: The tiny violins are out in force. Bitches Be Lyin', Ronan Farrow (!) and Jane Mayer (!!!) and the New Yorker (oh ffs) are ratfucking us all, and something something irreplaceable talent something something despair and let's not forget WHAT ABOUT DUUUUEEEE PROCESSSSSSS.
I think we, as Democrats, really need to take a good hard look at ourselves in the mirror. Why do we not believe women? Why are women's voices not credible? Why are so many people jumping on the Ratfuck! and Woman Scorned! bandwagons? Why, in this very thread, do we wax nostalgic about Eliot fucking Spitzer? We laugh at Republicans lapping up ridiculous conspiracy theories and delusions of persecution at every turn, but what about us?
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:22 AM on May 8, 2018 [29 favorites]
I think we, as Democrats, really need to take a good hard look at ourselves in the mirror. Why do we not believe women? Why are women's voices not credible? Why are so many people jumping on the Ratfuck! and Woman Scorned! bandwagons? Why, in this very thread, do we wax nostalgic about Eliot fucking Spitzer? We laugh at Republicans lapping up ridiculous conspiracy theories and delusions of persecution at every turn, but what about us?
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:22 AM on May 8, 2018 [29 favorites]
Who do people prefer as a successor, Teachout or Underwood?
Underwood, by far, as she has experience managing the sort of office that the AG runs.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:41 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Underwood, by far, as she has experience managing the sort of office that the AG runs.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:41 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
But my dearest male friend [...] is stuck on the concept that employers have no responsibility/duty of care for the actions their staff take out of hours, if there is no conviction.
Man I am so so tired of discussion about duty when it comes to being decent humans. That company has no duty other than to maximize shareholder value. Well, yeah, so? I have no duty to say thank you when someone holds the door for me or refills my water glass. I have no duty to do a million other things that represent just generally being a decent person who wants to leave the world at least as well as I found it. I similarly have no duty to give my time, attention, donations, purchases, respect, or anything else to organizations who don't give a fuck whether or not they're breeding places for assholery of whatever flavor.
Further, we have come to this situation where we will recognize corporations as collections of individuals with speech rights and deserving of religious protections. SO HELL TO THE FUCKING YEAH I AM GONNA FEEL FREE TO SAY THEY CONSEQUENTLY GET JUDGED FOR MORAL FAILINGS. If they all want to just chug along and pretend it's just business then they can all fall the fuck into line and actually be little unfeeling robots. Until that time, if business want to be people then they can be people in every way - including my judging them for their shitty morals and bad choice in friends.
Duty. Who fucking cares? Businesses and charities expend a huge effort in signaling that they are thoughtful, responsible with your money, support green methods, recycle, buy local, care about diversity, avoid supporting animal cruelty, blah blah blah fucking hey look at our LEED building blah blah. All anyone is asking is that they give remotely as much of a fuck about whether they are financing a rapist and setting him up with targets as whether or not their menu is printed on recycled paper.
posted by phearlez at 11:45 AM on May 8, 2018 [16 favorites]
Man I am so so tired of discussion about duty when it comes to being decent humans. That company has no duty other than to maximize shareholder value. Well, yeah, so? I have no duty to say thank you when someone holds the door for me or refills my water glass. I have no duty to do a million other things that represent just generally being a decent person who wants to leave the world at least as well as I found it. I similarly have no duty to give my time, attention, donations, purchases, respect, or anything else to organizations who don't give a fuck whether or not they're breeding places for assholery of whatever flavor.
Further, we have come to this situation where we will recognize corporations as collections of individuals with speech rights and deserving of religious protections. SO HELL TO THE FUCKING YEAH I AM GONNA FEEL FREE TO SAY THEY CONSEQUENTLY GET JUDGED FOR MORAL FAILINGS. If they all want to just chug along and pretend it's just business then they can all fall the fuck into line and actually be little unfeeling robots. Until that time, if business want to be people then they can be people in every way - including my judging them for their shitty morals and bad choice in friends.
Duty. Who fucking cares? Businesses and charities expend a huge effort in signaling that they are thoughtful, responsible with your money, support green methods, recycle, buy local, care about diversity, avoid supporting animal cruelty, blah blah blah fucking hey look at our LEED building blah blah. All anyone is asking is that they give remotely as much of a fuck about whether they are financing a rapist and setting him up with targets as whether or not their menu is printed on recycled paper.
posted by phearlez at 11:45 AM on May 8, 2018 [16 favorites]
Is there something wrong with NY prosecutors, or is it just the Powerful Man Syndrome striking again and are all state AG's as bad?
I suppose we at least can say 'well, yes, but when powerful men on **OUR SIDE** are confronted with irrefutable evidence of their sexual abuse they have hte grace to retire to be elite officials and earn hundreds of millions of dollars rather than staying in office'
That's not really what I'd call moral high ground.
posted by sotonohito at 11:57 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I suppose we at least can say 'well, yes, but when powerful men on **OUR SIDE** are confronted with irrefutable evidence of their sexual abuse they have hte grace to retire to be elite officials and earn hundreds of millions of dollars rather than staying in office'
That's not really what I'd call moral high ground.
posted by sotonohito at 11:57 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Is there something wrong with NY prosecutors, or is it just the Powerful Man Syndrome striking again and are all state AG's as bad?
It's men. It's patriarchy. Even the men that say and do many of the 'right' feminist things are soaked in toxic masculinity.
It's like racism being prejudice PLUS institutional power. When the power accumulates, the misogyny comes out.
The past two years have completely cemented for me that in the American public consciousness or psyche or whatever one might call it, women are not conceptualized as full human beings. We are not thought of and certainly not treated like we have desires and thoughts and feelings independent of what men think of us or want from us. Certainly, if a thought or feeling occasionally breaks into the public sphere, it is never equally important as what men think of us or want from us.
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:15 PM on May 8, 2018 [32 favorites]
It's men. It's patriarchy. Even the men that say and do many of the 'right' feminist things are soaked in toxic masculinity.
It's like racism being prejudice PLUS institutional power. When the power accumulates, the misogyny comes out.
The past two years have completely cemented for me that in the American public consciousness or psyche or whatever one might call it, women are not conceptualized as full human beings. We are not thought of and certainly not treated like we have desires and thoughts and feelings independent of what men think of us or want from us. Certainly, if a thought or feeling occasionally breaks into the public sphere, it is never equally important as what men think of us or want from us.
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:15 PM on May 8, 2018 [32 favorites]
I started the kink derail; apologies. Today I was walking somewhere and remembered hearing about a period in which some women became political lesbians and how I used to think that was crazy pants. Then I thought about all the ways that my life has been diminished because I am female (with white privilege for sure, so I am lucky in that I have privilege) and how I have wasted years of my life wanting to impress people who turn out to be exclusively male, while none of them feel the need to impress me. (I don't fret about impressing my women friends or family members because they love me exactly as I am.) #notallmen, I know, I know, but honestly, I need to figure out if there is some small, personal way that I can opt-out of the patriarchy because this is fucking bullshit and I am so tired of it. When I try to think about the men who have helped make my life better, well, it's a pretty small list and some MeFites are on it. I am grateful that so many progressive (seemingly) women are running for office. I am grateful for the bravery of the #metoo participants. I am grateful for the genuinely excellent reporting of the New Yorker journalists. I am ready to see bad actors to be put into their places, and that includes jail. Thank you, MeFites, for keeping me company during this nightmarish era.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:10 PM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:10 PM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
Charles Pierce, Esquire: None Of Us Really Know These Guys:
Hero worship among sportswriters is annoying, but largely harmless and, besides, there’s always someone who doesn’t buy into it. Hero worship in our politics, however, is a dangerous business. The search for the person on a white horse is an open invitation to counterfeit engagement and artificial activism. The impact of celebrity on our politics has been devastating enough; see the current tenant at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue for details. It’s a by-product of the constant calls for “leadership” among our political class, many of which are simple appeals for someone—anyone!—to remove the burdens of citizenship and self-government from our shoulders. And that has worked far too well.posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:39 PM on May 8, 2018 [10 favorites]
...Who in the hell counsels a friend to hush up a violent assault on these grounds? My politics are as important to me as anyone’s are but if, say, Sherrod Brown came and burglarized your house, I wouldn’t tell you to let him keep your jewelry because we need him to save Social Security. (Note to Senator Brown: I do not believe you are a cat burglar.) This is turning your politics into a graven image, a golden calf of the soul. Believe it or not, there are some things that politics ought not to touch. Physical abuse of any kind is high on that list.
Bella Donna, you may be interested in a lot of Alice Walker's writing about womanism. She (among others) advocated the idea of a 'woman-centered life', where even if you don't identify as queer or lesbian, you put your emotional and mental energy into your relationships with women, sexual/romantic or not.
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:15 PM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:15 PM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
... Today I was walking somewhere and remembered hearing about a period in which some women became political lesbians and how I used to think that was crazy pants.
I wanted this when I was a teenager. I was fascinated by lesbian and gay culture. I waited for the Lesbian Fairy to come and take me away from my terrible feelings and the terrible boys who inspired them, so I could go live in New York with women and laugh and somehow never even see men, like the ladies in Alison Bechdel comics. But it never happened. Thankfully I never made some other girl suffer through an unsatisfying relationship while I figured this out about myself.
Absent from any discussion of Hillary is the question of whether she would want this. I think she'd as soon have elective surgery as do this job. It would be like presenting herself as a Jefferson Davis for an upcoming civil war.
I have to admit that I couldn't quite rest last night after hearing this news before I found out whether NY had a Democratic legislature or some other mechanism to put a safe person in place. 2018 has broken me.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:51 PM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
I wanted this when I was a teenager. I was fascinated by lesbian and gay culture. I waited for the Lesbian Fairy to come and take me away from my terrible feelings and the terrible boys who inspired them, so I could go live in New York with women and laugh and somehow never even see men, like the ladies in Alison Bechdel comics. But it never happened. Thankfully I never made some other girl suffer through an unsatisfying relationship while I figured this out about myself.
Absent from any discussion of Hillary is the question of whether she would want this. I think she'd as soon have elective surgery as do this job. It would be like presenting herself as a Jefferson Davis for an upcoming civil war.
I have to admit that I couldn't quite rest last night after hearing this news before I found out whether NY had a Democratic legislature or some other mechanism to put a safe person in place. 2018 has broken me.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:51 PM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
Thankfully I never made some other girl suffer through an unsatisfying relationship while I figured this out about myself.
as a queer afab person who in my younger and femme-ier days had to absorb some really unpleasant situations, occasionally veering into full-on sexual harassment, from straight girls wishing they could 'do' political lesbianism, i thank you for this, sincerely.
posted by halation at 2:55 PM on May 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
as a queer afab person who in my younger and femme-ier days had to absorb some really unpleasant situations, occasionally veering into full-on sexual harassment, from straight girls wishing they could 'do' political lesbianism, i thank you for this, sincerely.
posted by halation at 2:55 PM on May 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
So former AG Schneiderman is under investigation for sexual assault by Manhattan DA Cy Vance, who Schneiderman was investigating for making Vance campaign contributor Harvey Weinstein's sexual assault charges go away.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:03 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:03 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
The role of alcohol in Schneiderman's story is fascinating to me. I am sure it's typical of alcoholic abusers, but I can only speak of my own personal experience. In my situation, the emotional abuse was bad enough, but the most demoralizing part came when it sank in that he honestly had no idea how bad he got when he drank. He was totally black-out drunk every time, and the next day he had no memory of what had transpired while he was drunk.
All he knew about it was from what I told him about what happened, once he'd sobered up. And although he would apologize, I don't think he ever truly reconciled my accounts of what he'd done with things he had actually done, or who he really was. He was inclined to think all his exes were crazy, and not that he'd driven them crazy. I don't think he was lying about it, I think that was really what was going on in his black hole of a brain.
After reading the New Yorker article today, I had to wonder - with Schneiderman, is it the same kind of thing? Does he really have no idea what he did? He's described as drinking 1-2 bottles of wine on a nightly basis. Is his memory of those times so clouded or non-existent that he's managed to convince himself they were just role-playing? I ask this not as some sort of defense for him, but I honestly wonder what he thinks happened, and how distorted or non-existent his memory of events really is.
From the New Yorker article: A few days later, on a weekday afternoon, his security detail drove him to her apartment, and he showed up at her door with an armload of flowers and a case of wine. She found the wine surprising, given the fact that alcohol had fuelled his violent behavior.
Yeah, that hit painfully close to home for me.
posted by wondermouse at 6:33 PM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
All he knew about it was from what I told him about what happened, once he'd sobered up. And although he would apologize, I don't think he ever truly reconciled my accounts of what he'd done with things he had actually done, or who he really was. He was inclined to think all his exes were crazy, and not that he'd driven them crazy. I don't think he was lying about it, I think that was really what was going on in his black hole of a brain.
After reading the New Yorker article today, I had to wonder - with Schneiderman, is it the same kind of thing? Does he really have no idea what he did? He's described as drinking 1-2 bottles of wine on a nightly basis. Is his memory of those times so clouded or non-existent that he's managed to convince himself they were just role-playing? I ask this not as some sort of defense for him, but I honestly wonder what he thinks happened, and how distorted or non-existent his memory of events really is.
From the New Yorker article: A few days later, on a weekday afternoon, his security detail drove him to her apartment, and he showed up at her door with an armload of flowers and a case of wine. She found the wine surprising, given the fact that alcohol had fuelled his violent behavior.
Yeah, that hit painfully close to home for me.
posted by wondermouse at 6:33 PM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Re political lesbianism: Menopause tanked my already low sex drive, and the joys of asexuality and sweet, sweet spinsterdom are mine. I honestly think that the reason lifelong single women are so pitied and reviled is that a lot of us would choose it if we got the chance. I mean, I could be me, middle-aged, unmarried, suburban woman in a run-of-the-mill job, or I could be Melania Trump, Wealthy, Famous Married Lady, and guess who I'd rather be?
Come to the dark side, we have cats! (Not to mention peace and quiet.)
Meanwhile, "due process" doesn't mean what the Tiny Violin Contingent thinks it means. And the Trump investigation is going to roll on with or without a knight in shining armor at the helm. Mark Joseph Stern, Slate: The Legal Battle Against Trump is Better Off Without Eric Schneiderman:
Come to the dark side, we have cats! (Not to mention peace and quiet.)
Meanwhile, "due process" doesn't mean what the Tiny Violin Contingent thinks it means. And the Trump investigation is going to roll on with or without a knight in shining armor at the helm. Mark Joseph Stern, Slate: The Legal Battle Against Trump is Better Off Without Eric Schneiderman:
Yet Schneiderman was not alone in these crusades. In each suit, he joined together with a coalition of other Democratic attorneys general—usually about 16 to 22—so that no one state had to go it alone. Yes, his office occasionally played a vital role in spearheading the lawsuits. But if it hadn’t, another attorney general would have. Schneiderman led the pack alongside California Attorney General Xavier Becerra, Washington Attorney General Bob Ferguson, Virginia Attorney General Mark Herring, Massachusetts Attorney General Maura Healey, and Hawaii Attorney General Doug Chin. Schneiderman may have been the most prominent of these AGs. But his absence will not have a substantial impact on these lawyers’ ability to fight Trump’s agenda in court. (New York will remain in all litigation unless his successor decides to withdraw.)posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:40 PM on May 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
Woah, update, Gov. Cuomo put in Nassau County (Long Island) DA Madeline Singas as special prosecutor for Schneiderman, New York County (Manhattan) DA jurisdiction "displace[d] and supersede[d]", Cy Vance is displeased.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 7:23 PM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 7:23 PM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
> Kutsuwamushi:
"I'm uncomfortable with how much of his behavior is being attributed to an underlying kinky nature when it's indistinguishable from violent misogyny."
That's because, by any metric I can see or have any experience with (as a switch), he is NOT a kinkster (witness the drunkenness and med abuse (which is right off the table when it comes to scene time) and the level of injury inflicted (and I have been in some pretty rough play - Which usually ended up the next day with "Whoa, dude, check THIS shit out!" not "(crying) ohmigod ohmigodohmigodohmigod look what they did to me..."), he is nothing more than an abusive fuckwidget with zero self control trying to hide his insipidness behind a frequently misunderstood kink that is having a minor renaissance right now. He hates women. There is zero other reason for the listed behaviors to even happen.
posted by Samizdata at 7:30 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
"I'm uncomfortable with how much of his behavior is being attributed to an underlying kinky nature when it's indistinguishable from violent misogyny."
That's because, by any metric I can see or have any experience with (as a switch), he is NOT a kinkster (witness the drunkenness and med abuse (which is right off the table when it comes to scene time) and the level of injury inflicted (and I have been in some pretty rough play - Which usually ended up the next day with "Whoa, dude, check THIS shit out!" not "(crying) ohmigod ohmigodohmigodohmigod look what they did to me..."), he is nothing more than an abusive fuckwidget with zero self control trying to hide his insipidness behind a frequently misunderstood kink that is having a minor renaissance right now. He hates women. There is zero other reason for the listed behaviors to even happen.
posted by Samizdata at 7:30 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
> Mrs. Pterodactyl:
"I get that there are a lot of things going on and that this is very very important but I don't love that so often the first thought (or at least first public reaction) when something like this happens is not "I hope those women are being supported the way they deserve after a horrible experience when lots of people are going to be out for their blood" or "wow being a woman is dangerous and awful" or even "I'm glad we are getting rid of more abusers" (which still focuses on men) but is about a more abstract issue than the actual bad things that these women have experienced and will experience.
I totally get it and I'm not trying to target/call out anyone, but I think it's worth considering what our initial reaction as individuals and a community say about how much we prioritize the well-being of women, especially women who are victims of harassment and assault. Yes, fighting Trump is extremely extremely extremely important, but these women are important too."
My first thought was "Oh, shit, not AGAIN!" Second thought, upon reading more, was "There's NO reason for that. Fuckwidget needs to BURN."
posted by Samizdata at 7:33 PM on May 8, 2018
"I get that there are a lot of things going on and that this is very very important but I don't love that so often the first thought (or at least first public reaction) when something like this happens is not "I hope those women are being supported the way they deserve after a horrible experience when lots of people are going to be out for their blood" or "wow being a woman is dangerous and awful" or even "I'm glad we are getting rid of more abusers" (which still focuses on men) but is about a more abstract issue than the actual bad things that these women have experienced and will experience.
I totally get it and I'm not trying to target/call out anyone, but I think it's worth considering what our initial reaction as individuals and a community say about how much we prioritize the well-being of women, especially women who are victims of harassment and assault. Yes, fighting Trump is extremely extremely extremely important, but these women are important too."
My first thought was "Oh, shit, not AGAIN!" Second thought, upon reading more, was "There's NO reason for that. Fuckwidget needs to BURN."
posted by Samizdata at 7:33 PM on May 8, 2018
Not just shades. A casual glance at #AlFranken on twitter shows no lack of #resistance folks claiming it as a Russian setup.
The Hashtag Resistance has all sorts of poisonous takes on the topic.
posted by kafziel at 12:24 AM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Hashtag Resistance has all sorts of poisonous takes on the topic.
posted by kafziel at 12:24 AM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Interesting how they're all over the women for going public with this, but aren't thinking to blame Schneidermann for compromising his own position by assaulting them. Shouldn't their call be "how could you Schneidermann? Your work is too important for you to do shit like this. Keep your hands to yourself."?
(And like, I want to be clear that I utterly agree with what has been stated multiple times in this thread: this individual man is not important. He is completely expendable. There are many others doing this important work.)
posted by Dysk at 4:25 AM on May 9, 2018 [8 favorites]
(And like, I want to be clear that I utterly agree with what has been stated multiple times in this thread: this individual man is not important. He is completely expendable. There are many others doing this important work.)
posted by Dysk at 4:25 AM on May 9, 2018 [8 favorites]
Not just shades. A casual glance at #AlFranken on twitter shows no lack of #resistance folks claiming it as a Russian setup.
The Hashtag Resistance has all sorts of poisonous takes on the topic.
Yeah, let's maybe not do this? There's almost nothing to see there, this long after Franken stepped down, that needs to be held up as absolutely stable, in good faith, or evidence of how definitely horrible the entire left/left-except-for-you is. All hashtags degrade, most within 24 hours.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:08 AM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Hashtag Resistance has all sorts of poisonous takes on the topic.
Yeah, let's maybe not do this? There's almost nothing to see there, this long after Franken stepped down, that needs to be held up as absolutely stable, in good faith, or evidence of how definitely horrible the entire left/left-except-for-you is. All hashtags degrade, most within 24 hours.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:08 AM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, let's maybe not do this? There's almost nothing to see there, this long after Franken stepped down, that needs to be held up as absolutely stable, in good faith, or evidence of how definitely horrible the entire left/left-except-for-you is. All hashtags degrade, most within 24 hours.
Sorry, but no. You don't fix problems by ignoring them, and the reality is that there is a segment of the left that will sacrifice the well being of marginalized groups to "achieve" their goals. And that needs to be quashed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:19 AM on May 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
Sorry, but no. You don't fix problems by ignoring them, and the reality is that there is a segment of the left that will sacrifice the well being of marginalized groups to "achieve" their goals. And that needs to be quashed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:19 AM on May 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah, let's maybe not do this? There's almost nothing to see there, this long after Franken stepped down, that needs to be held up as absolutely stable, in good faith, or evidence of how definitely horrible the entire left/left-except-for-you is. All hashtags degrade, most within 24 hours.
There are commenters in the fetid swamps of Daily Kos who are still, even after all this time, blaming Kirsten Gillibrand (or "MRS. Gillbrand" as one commenter pointedly kept calling her) for "railroading" pooor deeear saint and martyr Al Franken in the comments about Schneiderman (Gillibrand is apparently somehow to blame by proxy for Schneiderman. W/e). Not to mention the attacks on Schneiderman's accusers, concern trolling about how men are going to have to cower in fear from vindictive women, attacks on the veracity and professionalism of Ronan Farrow, Jane Mayer, and the New Yorker ("I'm not saying they're Russian shills, buutttt...").
Because, doncha know, we need Our White Male Heroes who will Save Us. No Schneiderman? No Trump prosecution! Happy now, LAY-DEEZ?
Seriously, this is the tone of some of the comments over there. Which is why I'm on MeFi and not DK, because between $5 to join and the mod team, it's no fun for trolls here. But I think this kind of stuff needs to be called out and challenged - because it's not all trolls, people do mean what they say when they spout misogynistic garbage. I want a woman President in 2020 - I don't care if it's Gillibrand, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, oh hell, let Dianne Feinstein have a last hurrah for all I care. This kind of "bitches be lyin" is part and parcel of what was thrown at Hillary Clinton and I want that shit shut down.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:29 AM on May 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
There are commenters in the fetid swamps of Daily Kos who are still, even after all this time, blaming Kirsten Gillibrand (or "MRS. Gillbrand" as one commenter pointedly kept calling her) for "railroading" pooor deeear saint and martyr Al Franken in the comments about Schneiderman (Gillibrand is apparently somehow to blame by proxy for Schneiderman. W/e). Not to mention the attacks on Schneiderman's accusers, concern trolling about how men are going to have to cower in fear from vindictive women, attacks on the veracity and professionalism of Ronan Farrow, Jane Mayer, and the New Yorker ("I'm not saying they're Russian shills, buutttt...").
Because, doncha know, we need Our White Male Heroes who will Save Us. No Schneiderman? No Trump prosecution! Happy now, LAY-DEEZ?
Seriously, this is the tone of some of the comments over there. Which is why I'm on MeFi and not DK, because between $5 to join and the mod team, it's no fun for trolls here. But I think this kind of stuff needs to be called out and challenged - because it's not all trolls, people do mean what they say when they spout misogynistic garbage. I want a woman President in 2020 - I don't care if it's Gillibrand, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, oh hell, let Dianne Feinstein have a last hurrah for all I care. This kind of "bitches be lyin" is part and parcel of what was thrown at Hillary Clinton and I want that shit shut down.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:29 AM on May 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
The story about demanding resignation from "good" politicians really needs to be reframed not as a matter of taking out an asset, but as fixing a structural fault, or maybe even treating an illness. Think about every time you've felt some pain that worried you and thought: I cannot deal with this right now, I don't have the time or the money, and popped some Advil. Finally the pain brings you in to the office, and things are far worse than they would have been if you had taken it in earlier. You weren't wrong in thinking you didn't have the time or the money -- anyone else might have said so -- but you now have much bigger problems, much less time, and (if you are American) probably a lot less money.
An abusive politician is a creeping illness for his party. If there aren't allies or third parties who deal with his abuses, then eventually his enemies will.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:38 AM on May 9, 2018 [9 favorites]
An abusive politician is a creeping illness for his party. If there aren't allies or third parties who deal with his abuses, then eventually his enemies will.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:38 AM on May 9, 2018 [9 favorites]
An abusive politician is a creeping illness for his party. If there aren't allies or third parties who deal with his abuses, then eventually his enemies will.
THIS. I really think this is what helped get Bush elected in 2000. Lots of factors operated, but scandal fatigue hurt the Democrats. I also think that Bill's indiscretions came back to hurt Hillary Clinton in 2016. Again, one of a larger set of factors but it was there.
Cancer survivor speaking: Having abusers and crooks in your party is like cancer. If caught early enough, many cancers can be put in remission. Surgery sucks, chemo really sucks, but that is what gets rid of the cancer. On the other hand, a cancer that is ignored or left too long will metastasize, and that will kill the patient.
Getting rid of abusive men - no matter how "heroic" or "indispensable" or "liberal allies" - is like chemo. It's not fun to go through at all. But the end product - a healthy body politic - is worth it. We have to be the healthy party. Letting abusers slide is not going to make our party better, stronger, or more appealing to voters.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:25 AM on May 9, 2018 [12 favorites]
THIS. I really think this is what helped get Bush elected in 2000. Lots of factors operated, but scandal fatigue hurt the Democrats. I also think that Bill's indiscretions came back to hurt Hillary Clinton in 2016. Again, one of a larger set of factors but it was there.
Cancer survivor speaking: Having abusers and crooks in your party is like cancer. If caught early enough, many cancers can be put in remission. Surgery sucks, chemo really sucks, but that is what gets rid of the cancer. On the other hand, a cancer that is ignored or left too long will metastasize, and that will kill the patient.
Getting rid of abusive men - no matter how "heroic" or "indispensable" or "liberal allies" - is like chemo. It's not fun to go through at all. But the end product - a healthy body politic - is worth it. We have to be the healthy party. Letting abusers slide is not going to make our party better, stronger, or more appealing to voters.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:25 AM on May 9, 2018 [12 favorites]
I was thinking particularly of Anthony Weiner. For want of a nail, by which I mean Weiner not being an up-and-coming politician who met Huma Abedin in Hillary's circle, the kingdom was lost.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:52 AM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Countess Elena at 9:52 AM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
(To be clear, I am not even slightly saying that Abedin was responsible for anything Weiner did. But this article, which was posted on Mefi, shows that the couple met through high-level New York politics, and would probably never have gotten together if it were not for that proximity.)
posted by Countess Elena at 9:54 AM on May 9, 2018
posted by Countess Elena at 9:54 AM on May 9, 2018
An abusive politician is a creeping illness for his party.
Both parties. All parties. They differ in how they're trying to deal with it.
People + power = abuse.
posted by rokusan at 1:05 PM on May 12, 2018
Both parties. All parties. They differ in how they're trying to deal with it.
People + power = abuse.
posted by rokusan at 1:05 PM on May 12, 2018
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This better not fuck up the NY State backstop against Trump & Co.'s pardon power.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:20 PM on May 7, 2018 [24 favorites]