Taste sensations and umami bombs
May 8, 2018 9:34 AM Subscribe
The Weird Science Behind Chain Restaurant Menus A corporate restaurant consultant tells the inside story of how they developed a new "lighter, brigher, fresher" menu for an unnamed nationwide US fast-casual chain that serves Pan-Asian food. (SL Vice Munchies)
Perhaps on a related note, here are some photos and notes from a media launch party previewing a new lighter, brighter and fresher menu at a branch of P.F. Chang's.
Perhaps on a related note, here are some photos and notes from a media launch party previewing a new lighter, brighter and fresher menu at a branch of P.F. Chang's.
200 fast-casual stores? HQ in Arizona? The chain is almost certainly Pei Wei. P.F. Chang's is a sitdown full-casual place.
It's interesting how everyone has tried to launch an Asian Chipotle. Even Chipotle has tried. Nothing has stuck except Panda Express it seems.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:46 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
It's interesting how everyone has tried to launch an Asian Chipotle. Even Chipotle has tried. Nothing has stuck except Panda Express it seems.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:46 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
“They keep talking about this younger, female, healthy living guest,” the manager wailed, pounding his fist on the table. “But where are the hip moms? Where are the yoga pants?"
Where is the B Ark when you need it?
The politics of the phrase “‘clean’ Asian” should be skin-crawlingly obvious.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
Where is the B Ark when you need it?
The politics of the phrase “‘clean’ Asian” should be skin-crawlingly obvious.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:53 AM on May 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
I had spent nearly eight years in grad school analyzing the politics of 18th-century venison feasting, and here I was, Googling high-res images of French-fry containers before I could leave for the day. Still, it was better than adjuncting at a third-rate university somewhere. I counted my blessings.
As someone who direly needs to make a similar career pivot, I can't figure out whether to feel hope, jealousy, or deep sadness. I guess it can be a both/and situation.
posted by halation at 9:59 AM on May 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
As someone who direly needs to make a similar career pivot, I can't figure out whether to feel hope, jealousy, or deep sadness. I guess it can be a both/and situation.
posted by halation at 9:59 AM on May 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
Pei Wei is the fast-casual arm of P.F. Chang's.
posted by Clustercuss at 10:04 AM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Clustercuss at 10:04 AM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile, good old fast and cheap still works, as evidenced by Louisiana Famous Fried Chicken China [Town/Bowl] Express chains continuing to dot the landscape.
The fried chicken is actually pretty good, and though a bit too sweet, they still have barbecue pork whereas Panda Express struck it from the menu, to my bitter disappointment.
posted by linux at 10:08 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
The fried chicken is actually pretty good, and though a bit too sweet, they still have barbecue pork whereas Panda Express struck it from the menu, to my bitter disappointment.
posted by linux at 10:08 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Most importantly, Caramel Chicken was believed to resonate with the client’s target customer: the “female healthy living guest, aged 24-39.”
yet again neglecting the healthy dead
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [71 favorites]
yet again neglecting the healthy dead
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:11 AM on May 8, 2018 [71 favorites]
This makes me never want to eat at a restaurant ever again. Indeed, it makes me never want to use language again. It's like if you needed to explain to someone why the individual autonomous subject does not exist. You expect the end to be some kind of American Psycho action.
“I love this wrapper—what is it made of, rice paper? Something about it being clear makes it feel healthy.”
posted by Frowner at 10:12 AM on May 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
“I love this wrapper—what is it made of, rice paper? Something about it being clear makes it feel healthy.”
posted by Frowner at 10:12 AM on May 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
"... with familiar one-note flavors (sweet and sour pork..."
It literally has two flavors in the name.
posted by smcameron at 10:19 AM on May 8, 2018 [45 favorites]
It literally has two flavors in the name.
posted by smcameron at 10:19 AM on May 8, 2018 [45 favorites]
I am thankful that these tireless, thoughtful warrior-kings are in working round the clock to improve my Fast Living Chain Health Cravesperience. From the panko-crusted "Kaleifornia!" roll to the pan-seared asparagus flesh paella with roasted/toasted pistachio babies, these business adventurers have all all six of my Flavor Quadrants covered (roll call: Spicy! Cravey! Sandwich! Sugar! Green! Exotic Horatio!), all designed to match my urba-hip plating coordinates. It's so great to know I can travel almost anywhere in this amazing country-- stop by any highway, enter any tip-up concrete establishment-- and find a baseline level of Imagineered Foodables, carefully preserved and heated, watching, waiting. Waiting softly, crouched impatiently behind a glass-fronted display cabinet, flash-heated, plated, served, sliced with a knife, and waiting for that one perfect moment, just as the first bite touches the roof of my mouth, to scream.
posted by phooky at 10:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [74 favorites]
posted by phooky at 10:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [74 favorites]
It's interesting how everyone has tried to launch an Asian Chipotle. Even Chipotle has tried. Nothing has stuck except Panda Express it seems.
The "Asian Chipotle" is probably a non-starter for a chain, because for a lot of people this is probably already their local family Thai or Vietnamese Phở joint that does quick/casual stuff, especially Bánh mì.
I don't know what the scene is like now but in places like SF and Seattle you could get an affordable bánh mì at dozens of different locations for less than the price of a Subway sub, and they all used ridiculously fresh ingredients, often used in-house baked baguettes and are just generally more delicious and cheaper than they have a right to be.
Heck, my friends had their wedding catered in part by their favorite local Vietnamese place, and that part of the catering was simply a couple of hotel pans filled with pretty little bánh mì in their paper wrappers and rubber bands. I ate like three of those delicious little monsters that day.
Man, if there was a really fresh "Asian Chipotle" chain where I could pop in and pick up quick, light food like veggie fresh/spring rolls or just some fried tofu ala carte, I'd be all over it.
But I have yet to meet a major/large chain (that isn't In-n-Out) that can handle either the logistics of that much fresh produce or the skill to prepare it right.
Making an item like fresh/spring rolls is crazy labor intensive and it's a lot of produce prep, processing and assembly. The ones I get would effectively hold their own in knife skills needed as compared to a really fancy upscale salad at a 3-star place, except instead of architecturally arranged on a plate they're an entire salad crammed and wrapped in a sticky rice wrapper and packed for optimum density and crunch.
The prep line and mise en place at my favorite Thai place is ridiculous and glorious. They must have something like 90 ingredients in the prep line, and half of those or more are fresh produce. A full half of their daily staff is the older family members in the back doing nothing but produce prep and processing while they watch soap operas.
You're going to have a really hard time scaling that kind of kitchen knowledge and skill to a bunch of bored minimum wage high school kids that don't give a shit.
The reason why Chipotle works is just about anyone can slop beans and rice from a hotel pan or insert into a tortilla and wrap it up, and rice, beans and chopped meat in sauce have really long counter/shelf lives and almost zero prep cost.
posted by loquacious at 10:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [33 favorites]
The "Asian Chipotle" is probably a non-starter for a chain, because for a lot of people this is probably already their local family Thai or Vietnamese Phở joint that does quick/casual stuff, especially Bánh mì.
I don't know what the scene is like now but in places like SF and Seattle you could get an affordable bánh mì at dozens of different locations for less than the price of a Subway sub, and they all used ridiculously fresh ingredients, often used in-house baked baguettes and are just generally more delicious and cheaper than they have a right to be.
Heck, my friends had their wedding catered in part by their favorite local Vietnamese place, and that part of the catering was simply a couple of hotel pans filled with pretty little bánh mì in their paper wrappers and rubber bands. I ate like three of those delicious little monsters that day.
Man, if there was a really fresh "Asian Chipotle" chain where I could pop in and pick up quick, light food like veggie fresh/spring rolls or just some fried tofu ala carte, I'd be all over it.
But I have yet to meet a major/large chain (that isn't In-n-Out) that can handle either the logistics of that much fresh produce or the skill to prepare it right.
Making an item like fresh/spring rolls is crazy labor intensive and it's a lot of produce prep, processing and assembly. The ones I get would effectively hold their own in knife skills needed as compared to a really fancy upscale salad at a 3-star place, except instead of architecturally arranged on a plate they're an entire salad crammed and wrapped in a sticky rice wrapper and packed for optimum density and crunch.
The prep line and mise en place at my favorite Thai place is ridiculous and glorious. They must have something like 90 ingredients in the prep line, and half of those or more are fresh produce. A full half of their daily staff is the older family members in the back doing nothing but produce prep and processing while they watch soap operas.
You're going to have a really hard time scaling that kind of kitchen knowledge and skill to a bunch of bored minimum wage high school kids that don't give a shit.
The reason why Chipotle works is just about anyone can slop beans and rice from a hotel pan or insert into a tortilla and wrap it up, and rice, beans and chopped meat in sauce have really long counter/shelf lives and almost zero prep cost.
posted by loquacious at 10:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [33 favorites]
Metafilter: An operational solve
posted by Thorzdad at 10:27 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 10:27 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
t loquacious, those places are also predicated on cheap labor so if you see increases in wages in those sectors (either through demand or people not wanting to continue family businesses), prices will rise and there will be more opening to sneak under them price wise via fast casual.
posted by Ferreous at 10:28 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 10:28 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Chipotle for hamburgers is the current trendy concept. They just haven't gotten to Asian yet. Chipotle for pizza is totally awesome though, but I'm not sure about the ingredients costs.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:34 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:34 AM on May 8, 2018
"Edamame hummus isn’t a subtractive experience" is a phrase I'm adding to my repertoire.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:47 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:47 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I had spent nearly eight years in grad school analyzing the politics of 18th-century venison feasting, and here I was, Googling high-res images of French-fry containers before I could leave for the day.
If only Time Force weren't a secret, she would know how desperately we need an 18th-century venison feasting expert and oh no I've said too much
posted by compartment at 10:48 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
If only Time Force weren't a secret, she would know how desperately we need an 18th-century venison feasting expert and oh no I've said too much
posted by compartment at 10:48 AM on May 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
"Science"? There is nothing sacred left in this world.
posted by adrianhon at 10:48 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by adrianhon at 10:48 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
those places are also predicated on cheap labor so if you see increases in wages in those sectors (either through demand or people not wanting to continue family businesses), prices will rise and there will be more opening to sneak under them price wise via fast casual.
I think these kinds of places that do this kind of quality at low prices are basically impossible to exist without cheap family labor.
And in my experience in kitchens when it comes to produce and line prep I'll take the much older Asian lady over the younger high school kid any day. The best chef and cook I've ever met was Korean and she had the work ethic of a Clydesdale horse and the speed of a hummingbird backed with the aesthetics and pallet of a world class chef. The best produce prepper I ever met was a tiny old Filipino grandmother who could strip and cut an entire case of pineapples in like five minutes.
I am utterly in awe at the amount of high speed, high quality work these people could output all day, every day. I'm bringing this up specifically because a lot of fundamentals in Asian cooking really relies on this kind of speed and knife and kitchen skills. There's reasons why it's often so hard to recreate at home or in fast food or quick casual kitchens.
So, yeah, you can try to Chipotle fresh pan-Asian food but it's just not going to scale, the quality will suffer and you're back at Panda Express or whatever where all the flavor and life has been sucked out of it and drowned in sugary sauces that are easy to prep and serve.
posted by loquacious at 10:48 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
I think these kinds of places that do this kind of quality at low prices are basically impossible to exist without cheap family labor.
And in my experience in kitchens when it comes to produce and line prep I'll take the much older Asian lady over the younger high school kid any day. The best chef and cook I've ever met was Korean and she had the work ethic of a Clydesdale horse and the speed of a hummingbird backed with the aesthetics and pallet of a world class chef. The best produce prepper I ever met was a tiny old Filipino grandmother who could strip and cut an entire case of pineapples in like five minutes.
I am utterly in awe at the amount of high speed, high quality work these people could output all day, every day. I'm bringing this up specifically because a lot of fundamentals in Asian cooking really relies on this kind of speed and knife and kitchen skills. There's reasons why it's often so hard to recreate at home or in fast food or quick casual kitchens.
So, yeah, you can try to Chipotle fresh pan-Asian food but it's just not going to scale, the quality will suffer and you're back at Panda Express or whatever where all the flavor and life has been sucked out of it and drowned in sugary sauces that are easy to prep and serve.
posted by loquacious at 10:48 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
Chipotle for hamburgers is the current trendy concept.
Been fascinated by the evolution of fast food places like BK and McDonalds into something closer to this. Even though I can never figure out when I'm supposed to get my drink in the new McDonald's set-ups.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:49 AM on May 8, 2018
Been fascinated by the evolution of fast food places like BK and McDonalds into something closer to this. Even though I can never figure out when I'm supposed to get my drink in the new McDonald's set-ups.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:49 AM on May 8, 2018
The reason why Chipotle works is just about anyone can slop beans and rice from a hotel pan or insert into a tortilla and wrap it up,
I was with you right until "wrap it up." Chipotle has been terrible at wrapping the burritos for years now. I'm convinced it's part of what's driving everyone getting bowls.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:52 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
I was with you right until "wrap it up." Chipotle has been terrible at wrapping the burritos for years now. I'm convinced it's part of what's driving everyone getting bowls.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:52 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
It is absolutely Pei Wei.
From the article: "Most recently, they’ve rekindled their age-old rivalry with Panda Express by rolling out their own, allegedly better version of Panda’s signature dish: orange chicken. Boasting “house-cut,” “tempura-battered,” and “wok-seared” white meat chicken breast served with fresh oranges, the dish (with a whopping 43 grams of sugar) is an obvious return to the client’s Chinese-American roots."
Wei Better Orange Chicken: "At Pei Wei, we take care to honor the age-old tradition of true Asian cuisine. That's why it took us some time to create our Wei Better Orange Chicken. We wanted to do it right. We start with house-cut and house-battered crispy tempura white-meat chicken. Then we wok-sear it in our delectable orange sauce and finish it with fresh orange slices."
posted by reductiondesign at 10:54 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
From the article: "Most recently, they’ve rekindled their age-old rivalry with Panda Express by rolling out their own, allegedly better version of Panda’s signature dish: orange chicken. Boasting “house-cut,” “tempura-battered,” and “wok-seared” white meat chicken breast served with fresh oranges, the dish (with a whopping 43 grams of sugar) is an obvious return to the client’s Chinese-American roots."
Wei Better Orange Chicken: "At Pei Wei, we take care to honor the age-old tradition of true Asian cuisine. That's why it took us some time to create our Wei Better Orange Chicken. We wanted to do it right. We start with house-cut and house-battered crispy tempura white-meat chicken. Then we wok-sear it in our delectable orange sauce and finish it with fresh orange slices."
posted by reductiondesign at 10:54 AM on May 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
The "Asian Chipotle" is probably a non-starter for a chain, because for a lot of people this is probably already their local family Thai or Vietnamese Phở joint that does quick/casual stuff, especially Bánh mì.
There were/still are taco stands, taquerias, lonchera trucks, and Mexican restaurants in California when Chipotle first started up in Denver in 1993. Yet, nowadays Chipotle is everywhere in California. The first burrito I ever had was in Alhambra next to a liquor store (or part of it, it's been about 25+ years).
Chipotle and a theoretical Asian version of it would serve a couple of purposes. The first would be for people that want to try something new-ish, but still within their comfort zone. And the reason for that can be anything ranging from just not being an adventurous eater (and that can be self preference or for dietary/allergy reasons), to honestly something more xenophobic like not wanting to talk to someone who might not be fluent in English. There's also another aspect of how ethnic restaurants are traditionally only found in ethnic enclaves (though that is changing), but places like Chipotle can open in nice malls and upscale shopping centers. And I think there's probably something tied into both higher rents and racism and prejudice against immigrants.
So sadly for those reasons, I think an Asian Chipotle restaurant is still possible.
posted by FJT at 10:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
There were/still are taco stands, taquerias, lonchera trucks, and Mexican restaurants in California when Chipotle first started up in Denver in 1993. Yet, nowadays Chipotle is everywhere in California. The first burrito I ever had was in Alhambra next to a liquor store (or part of it, it's been about 25+ years).
Chipotle and a theoretical Asian version of it would serve a couple of purposes. The first would be for people that want to try something new-ish, but still within their comfort zone. And the reason for that can be anything ranging from just not being an adventurous eater (and that can be self preference or for dietary/allergy reasons), to honestly something more xenophobic like not wanting to talk to someone who might not be fluent in English. There's also another aspect of how ethnic restaurants are traditionally only found in ethnic enclaves (though that is changing), but places like Chipotle can open in nice malls and upscale shopping centers. And I think there's probably something tied into both higher rents and racism and prejudice against immigrants.
So sadly for those reasons, I think an Asian Chipotle restaurant is still possible.
posted by FJT at 10:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
They can dress it up in all the fancy talk they want but at the end of the day it's about salt and sugar. The small portion of the caramel chicken they talk about being perfect for health conscious lower middle aged women has the ceiling of recommended sodium for the entire day in it and by weight is nearly as much sugar as protein.
posted by Candleman at 11:13 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 11:13 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
There are Asian Chipotles out there. Bibibop is a "bibimbop inspired" Chipotle-esque place. You order your rice or noodle bowl, and then select toppings, etc. It started in Columbus, OH a few years back, and already has locations in DC, Maryland, Illinois, and California.
(They started up not too long after Piada, also Columbus-based, which is "Italian Street food inspired", and has managed to make it out to Texas, Minnesota, Michigan, Indiana, and Pennsylvania.)
posted by damayanti at 11:16 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
(They started up not too long after Piada, also Columbus-based, which is "Italian Street food inspired", and has managed to make it out to Texas, Minnesota, Michigan, Indiana, and Pennsylvania.)
posted by damayanti at 11:16 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
We have a new Chipotle But Indian place here. It's not bad (and last time I was there absolutely heaving with customers of multiple Asian and South Asian ethnicities). I mean, it's not great, but being in a vegetarian family with (and this is the important part) a vegetarian five-year-old, anything that's fast food but not meat comes in occasionally really handy. I'm old enough to remember when this absolutely was not a thing so I'm willing to cut a pretty solid break to all of these joints. They've made interstate travel immensely more pleasant for me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:17 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:17 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't necessarily think it's useful to talk about "Asian Chipotle" as a single concept. Poke bowl places using the Chipotle model have been blowing up for the last few years; while poke originated in Hawaii, it's clearly rooted in Japanese food. There are at least three places around Chicago that I can think of that are doing some version of Indian food in the Chipotle model. We also have places like Bright Wok, that's a sort of Chinese/Thai mix fast-casual place, or Fuh, which is build-your-own-pho. All of those could technically fit under the aegis of "Asian Chipotle" and they're all doing ok.
I think the big challenge is that the "Asian" chain restaurants in the US have always sort of roughly lumped together a bunch of cuisines and done them all in a mediocre fashion, and the segment of the market that's willing to accept that is smaller and smaller, and the people who're abandoning those places in favor of more specifically targeted cuisines view those big chains with disdain and disinterest. Even if PF Chang's or Pei Wei completely pivoted to something with more perceived authenticity or focus, they're not going to win back the interest of the people who are abandoning them, and there's a decent chance they'd scare off the market that's still eating there.
posted by protocoach at 11:18 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think the big challenge is that the "Asian" chain restaurants in the US have always sort of roughly lumped together a bunch of cuisines and done them all in a mediocre fashion, and the segment of the market that's willing to accept that is smaller and smaller, and the people who're abandoning those places in favor of more specifically targeted cuisines view those big chains with disdain and disinterest. Even if PF Chang's or Pei Wei completely pivoted to something with more perceived authenticity or focus, they're not going to win back the interest of the people who are abandoning them, and there's a decent chance they'd scare off the market that's still eating there.
posted by protocoach at 11:18 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
There's also something kind of judgmental/orientalist about treating Asian cuisine as unique in it's requirements of fresh ingredients and skills. Mexican cuisine can involve incredibly elaborate recipes that take ages to make and lots of skill.
Chipotle works not because Mexican cuisine is just rice and beans throw in a pile, but because one small slice of an americanized version of that cuisine is scale-able. To act like there's no aspect of Asian cuisine that is doable in that format is kind of odd.
posted by Ferreous at 11:20 AM on May 8, 2018 [19 favorites]
Chipotle works not because Mexican cuisine is just rice and beans throw in a pile, but because one small slice of an americanized version of that cuisine is scale-able. To act like there's no aspect of Asian cuisine that is doable in that format is kind of odd.
posted by Ferreous at 11:20 AM on May 8, 2018 [19 favorites]
Chipotle for pizza exists and is called Pieology.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:20 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by elsietheeel at 11:20 AM on May 8, 2018
Isn't Subway the Ur-Chipotle?
posted by FJT at 11:21 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by FJT at 11:21 AM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also Chipotle But Sushi is also a thing. We have something called Sushi Fuku of which there are two within four blocks of where I'm sitting right now.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:21 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:21 AM on May 8, 2018
Chipotle for pizza exists and is called Pieology.
Also, Blaze Pizza
posted by briank at 11:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also, Blaze Pizza
posted by briank at 11:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Blaze is delicious. I'm glad that I no longer work across the street from one, because I was spending entirely too much time and money there. Chipotle-but-pizza felt very counter-intuitive when I started going there, but it turned out to be a pretty great fit.
posted by protocoach at 11:27 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by protocoach at 11:27 AM on May 8, 2018
Isn't Subway the Ur-Chipotle?
I think the Smörgåsbord is the Ur-Subway and Ur-Chipotle. They just put it behind glass so the line can keep moving at a clip that keeps your sanity intact.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:35 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think the Smörgåsbord is the Ur-Subway and Ur-Chipotle. They just put it behind glass so the line can keep moving at a clip that keeps your sanity intact.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:35 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
What a delightful article. We eat at a few suburban chain restaurants and always take glee in reconstructing the consultant pitches when they change their menu, and having all my speculation confirmed and expanded upon was so much fun. Thanks for sharing this.
posted by potrzebie at 11:45 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 11:45 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
The stuff-in-a-bowl fast food option is a trend I've really been enjoying. I love the proliferation of poke places, and Chipotle-but-Mediterranean also works out pretty great, and feels relatively healthy. There was a Cava across the street from my old office building, and it was great. You could pick a salad or grain option as the base, then the protein of your choice (falafel, chicken, lamb meatballs), a spread (hummus, tzatziki, etc), and assorted other toppings (cucumbers, tomato salad, peppers, etc.). I'd usually go with lentils + brown rice, chicken, hummus, cucumber and tomato, and a yogurt-based sauce, and it was all delicious and filling.
posted by yasaman at 11:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 11:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
Poke places are definitely on the rise in the fast-casual market, but I think they're a hampered by the prices necessary for fresh fish. But I'm holding out for the yummy Japanese curry takeout chain to move from NY into the DC market. More katsu curry, please!
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 11:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 11:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Poke places are definitely on the rise in the fast-casual market
I don't get why the article is so dismissive of poke. I guess because it's an overdone trend? Whatever, it's a great addition and replacement for over-chickened, over-fried 'salads'.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:11 PM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't get why the article is so dismissive of poke. I guess because it's an overdone trend? Whatever, it's a great addition and replacement for over-chickened, over-fried 'salads'.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:11 PM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's interesting how much thought goes into making (essentially) starch fit the mold of "fresh". Like the rice paper wrappers.
I think as much as Chipotle isn't just beans and rice in a tortilla, the fact remains that the mass of food that goes into one of their burritos that isn't rice, beans, or the tortilla is fairly small. And those things are dirt cheap.
Too bad gluten is a bad word these days, because I feel like seitan would work well into a lot of what these chains are pushing.
I had poke last night. It was delicious.
posted by quaking fajita at 12:28 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think as much as Chipotle isn't just beans and rice in a tortilla, the fact remains that the mass of food that goes into one of their burritos that isn't rice, beans, or the tortilla is fairly small. And those things are dirt cheap.
Too bad gluten is a bad word these days, because I feel like seitan would work well into a lot of what these chains are pushing.
I had poke last night. It was delicious.
posted by quaking fajita at 12:28 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I felt like the dismissiveness about poke had to do with the specific restaurant in question. Imagine a place where you can get the most basic sweet and sour chicken, but then also they serve poke. That's such a desperate attempt to be trendy.
posted by meese at 12:33 PM on May 8, 2018
posted by meese at 12:33 PM on May 8, 2018
I don't know what the scene is like now but in places like SF and Seattle you could get an affordable bánh mì at dozens of different locations for less than the price of a Subway sub, and they all used ridiculously fresh ingredients, often used in-house baked baguettes and are just generally more delicious and cheaper than they have a right to be.
At least three places in downtown Cincinnati can get you a bánh mì to the spec you describe for $5-7. It may be a bit more than Subway, but not absurdly so.
posted by MrGuilt at 12:49 PM on May 8, 2018
At least three places in downtown Cincinnati can get you a bánh mì to the spec you describe for $5-7. It may be a bit more than Subway, but not absurdly so.
posted by MrGuilt at 12:49 PM on May 8, 2018
A few years ago I took food from Lee's Sandwiches to work with me - a couple of banh mi, a pineapple smoothie w/boba.
Two of my Vietnamese teammates laughed. "You found the Vietnamese Starbucks!"
It's not the BEST banh mi I've ever had.. but it's some of the cheapest - $2-4 each. I can fill up with a couple of sandwiches and a smoothie for $12-15. It's comfort food for me, I try to hit up their drive-thru every Saturday afternoon.
On a side note, I'd never had banh mi before I moved from Austin to my company's Houston offices (at the time). One day, one of the previously mentioned coworkers dropped a bag on my desk. "What's this?" "Lunch, Vietnamese sandwiches. Enjoy." He moved to a different department a few years later, but whenever he wanted to bribe me to get something done quickly he'd drop by with a bag of sandwiches from near where he lived.
posted by mrbill at 12:52 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Two of my Vietnamese teammates laughed. "You found the Vietnamese Starbucks!"
It's not the BEST banh mi I've ever had.. but it's some of the cheapest - $2-4 each. I can fill up with a couple of sandwiches and a smoothie for $12-15. It's comfort food for me, I try to hit up their drive-thru every Saturday afternoon.
On a side note, I'd never had banh mi before I moved from Austin to my company's Houston offices (at the time). One day, one of the previously mentioned coworkers dropped a bag on my desk. "What's this?" "Lunch, Vietnamese sandwiches. Enjoy." He moved to a different department a few years later, but whenever he wanted to bribe me to get something done quickly he'd drop by with a bag of sandwiches from near where he lived.
posted by mrbill at 12:52 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's not the BEST banh mi I've ever had..
I haven't had Lee's in a while. Partly because their baguettes always end up bruising or even cutting up my palate.
posted by FJT at 1:09 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I haven't had Lee's in a while. Partly because their baguettes always end up bruising or even cutting up my palate.
posted by FJT at 1:09 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Chipotle for pizza exists and is called Pieology.
Also, Blaze Pizza
And yet, no one has mentioned the actual Chipotle owned Pizzeria Locale. Which is pretty darn good if you want a quick pizza and salad.
posted by teleri025 at 1:12 PM on May 8, 2018
Also, Blaze Pizza
And yet, no one has mentioned the actual Chipotle owned Pizzeria Locale. Which is pretty darn good if you want a quick pizza and salad.
posted by teleri025 at 1:12 PM on May 8, 2018
I like the idea of Banh Mi (cilantro! pickled veggies! baguettes!), and we have lots of local places to get them, but haven't found the combo of meat flavors I like. My sliced meat palette is too americanized to enjoy pate, and the version of "ham" we had had a sort of umami taste that wasn't up my alley. The BBQ pork from Lees, while probably not authentic does look pretty tasty though.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 1:15 PM on May 8, 2018
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 1:15 PM on May 8, 2018
> The BBQ pork from Lees, while probably not authentic does look pretty tasty though.
That's one of my favorites. I usually get one #6 bbq pork and one #7 pork meatball, and then a mix pineapple/watermelon smoothie w/boba. Their Durian smoothie was REALLY good, although my GF at the time claimed it smelled like old socks.
posted by mrbill at 1:41 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
That's one of my favorites. I usually get one #6 bbq pork and one #7 pork meatball, and then a mix pineapple/watermelon smoothie w/boba. Their Durian smoothie was REALLY good, although my GF at the time claimed it smelled like old socks.
posted by mrbill at 1:41 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
The "Asian Chipotle" is probably a non-starter for a chain, because for a lot of people this is probably already their local family Thai or Vietnamese Phở joint that does quick/casual stuff, especially Bánh mì.
Right, everyone has a local family-run Phở join.
Meanwhile, of course, this explanation is startlingly congruent to the one often offered for why Chipotle itself never caught on, namely that it didn't offer anything you couldn't get at your local taco truck or Mission-style burrito joint.
posted by kenko at 1:50 PM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Right, everyone has a local family-run Phở join.
Meanwhile, of course, this explanation is startlingly congruent to the one often offered for why Chipotle itself never caught on, namely that it didn't offer anything you couldn't get at your local taco truck or Mission-style burrito joint.
posted by kenko at 1:50 PM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Taco trucks and Mission-style burrito joints aren't as available as Thai restaurants.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:08 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by elsietheeel at 2:08 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
We have Chipotle but Mediterranean (Roti) and I freaking LOVE it, it's nice to have a fast-food option that's not burgers, American-Chinese, or Mexican (which is most of my local options). It just tastes lighter and when you need fast food but are just not in the mood for something heavy, it's glorious. Their proteins need some work if they're going to roll out nationally, though. The quality's just kind-of uneven.
I'm also kind-of fond of "Noodles Inc" which has the insane concept of "noodle dishes from all over the world." None of its dishes are awesome? But they're pretty good, and when you're with a group and some people want Italian and some people want Thai and some people want Mac & Cheese, HEY WHAT DO YOU KNOW.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:09 PM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm also kind-of fond of "Noodles Inc" which has the insane concept of "noodle dishes from all over the world." None of its dishes are awesome? But they're pretty good, and when you're with a group and some people want Italian and some people want Thai and some people want Mac & Cheese, HEY WHAT DO YOU KNOW.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:09 PM on May 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Roti is good. I love their on demand pita bread machine! So cute :D
I'd love to have a falafel place that was as good as the one we had in our college town. No other falafel joint has been able to to make that combo of sauces you got "with everything".
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 2:13 PM on May 8, 2018
I'd love to have a falafel place that was as good as the one we had in our college town. No other falafel joint has been able to to make that combo of sauces you got "with everything".
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 2:13 PM on May 8, 2018
re: Asian Chipotle
When I was in college our mandatory food service was operated by Marriott and the last couple of years I was there they have these "stir fry" stations with a non-student worker cooking person (in a fancy apron and hat).
It was just Sysco (or the like) chopped up vegetables and proteins, but you could choose whatever you want and a sauce and a carb and they'd fry it up fresh. Took about 2 - 3 minutes per order. The hand woks were rotated to be cleaned by someone else for re-use.
Come to think of it, aren't Mongolian barbeques (you assemble/ choose the ingredients and sauce(s), they fry it up with the big chopsticks on the big metal hotplate) the ur-ur Chopotle/ Subway?
Man, I could really go for some Mongolian bbq right now.
posted by porpoise at 4:20 PM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
When I was in college our mandatory food service was operated by Marriott and the last couple of years I was there they have these "stir fry" stations with a non-student worker cooking person (in a fancy apron and hat).
It was just Sysco (or the like) chopped up vegetables and proteins, but you could choose whatever you want and a sauce and a carb and they'd fry it up fresh. Took about 2 - 3 minutes per order. The hand woks were rotated to be cleaned by someone else for re-use.
Come to think of it, aren't Mongolian barbeques (you assemble/ choose the ingredients and sauce(s), they fry it up with the big chopsticks on the big metal hotplate) the ur-ur Chopotle/ Subway?
Man, I could really go for some Mongolian bbq right now.
posted by porpoise at 4:20 PM on May 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
(aside: poke is super popular right now because it's really, really easy to open a poke joint. you don't need a grill, you don't need a grease trap, you don't need carefully trained chefs; you just need a fridge, a counter, a rice cooker and a cash register. think about what's involved in setting up a burger or pizza joint. poke is trivial compared to that.)
posted by phooky at 5:54 PM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by phooky at 5:54 PM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Lee's is more like the Vietnamese Jimmy John's. Except it's stupidly fucking delicious. I'm grateful it's on the other side of town from me, otherwise I'd eat there every day.
Now I'm going to have to eat there for lunch tomorrow
posted by weed donkey at 5:57 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Now I'm going to have to eat there for lunch tomorrow
posted by weed donkey at 5:57 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Not coincidentally, Pei Wei -- which was sort of moderately okay -- seems to have gone wei downhill lately. We used to eat there a couple of times a week because it was conveniently located. Now we try to avoid it.
posted by Foosnark at 5:58 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Foosnark at 5:58 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Came here to talk about poke and see I am already accounted for. Carry on, Metafilter.
Also, poke is delicious, but I am not sure how well it would do logistically in, say, Corydon, Iowa without some significant tweaking. But I'm willing to be wrong.
posted by offalark at 6:01 PM on May 8, 2018
Also, poke is delicious, but I am not sure how well it would do logistically in, say, Corydon, Iowa without some significant tweaking. But I'm willing to be wrong.
posted by offalark at 6:01 PM on May 8, 2018
poke is delicious, but I am not sure how well it would do logistically in, say, Corydon, Iowa without some significant tweaking
Eh, pretty much all of them already forego the Ogo.
posted by rhizome at 6:10 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Eh, pretty much all of them already forego the Ogo.
posted by rhizome at 6:10 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
We have Chipotle but Mediterranean (Roti)
The pictures on their website look great, but I am confused by the name. I associate "roti" with East and West Indian cooking, not the Mediterranean.
In the article: "client-ready pizza"
I am realizing that some careers would be much, much tastier than my own.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:11 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
The pictures on their website look great, but I am confused by the name. I associate "roti" with East and West Indian cooking, not the Mediterranean.
In the article: "client-ready pizza"
I am realizing that some careers would be much, much tastier than my own.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:11 PM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Rôti is French for "roasted"
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:25 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:25 PM on May 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I like poke because it scratches much the same itch as sushi but faster and easier. Though there are definitely more poke joints in the SF Bay Area than needed, I'm just hoping the better ones survive the inevitable crash.
posted by tavella at 6:27 PM on May 8, 2018
posted by tavella at 6:27 PM on May 8, 2018
but I am not sure how well it would do logistically in, say, Corydon, Iowa
How many Subways are in Corydon? I spent 4 years in Mount Vernon, IA and there was a place with decent frogs legs (but mostly steaks - but they were decent; run by a disabled vet), a place selling high-quality internationally-diverse coffee beans, and a recent-immigrant staffed and run Mexican restaurant. Granted, fancy college town between Iowa City and Cedar Rapids.
I dunno what poke is like in food oases, but the poke in Vancouver BC is still predominantly lower-tier quality pre-frozen fish bits ("sashimi grade"), buckets of salad, and different recipes from dipping from to different sets of bowls.
Sashimi tuna/salmon/high-grade-versions-of isn't hard to get/ keep, there are low grade versions available; I guess the trick is tailoring the sauces/ mixes/ flavours for the local audience.
There is a huge spread in the quality of poke places around here, and they're generally overpriced for what you get in the bowl, only partially offset by the stupid insane rent.
But we're talking about places where Scrod (in practice, whatever whitefish isn't past spoilage date - when I used to live there in the '00s) is considered a treat/ the-most-disgusting-food-in-the-world.
Low/Medium end poke places are pretty interchangeable; it's the sauces that makes any of them stand out outside of uniqueness/ novelty, or sides that are particularly good (there's a place I like in my neighbourhood - the 'Hokey Poke' - that has a superior (fake) crab salad. "High end" (priced) Poke places tend not to be worth the money/ time.
posted by porpoise at 6:50 PM on May 8, 2018
How many Subways are in Corydon? I spent 4 years in Mount Vernon, IA and there was a place with decent frogs legs (but mostly steaks - but they were decent; run by a disabled vet), a place selling high-quality internationally-diverse coffee beans, and a recent-immigrant staffed and run Mexican restaurant. Granted, fancy college town between Iowa City and Cedar Rapids.
I dunno what poke is like in food oases, but the poke in Vancouver BC is still predominantly lower-tier quality pre-frozen fish bits ("sashimi grade"), buckets of salad, and different recipes from dipping from to different sets of bowls.
Sashimi tuna/salmon/high-grade-versions-of isn't hard to get/ keep, there are low grade versions available; I guess the trick is tailoring the sauces/ mixes/ flavours for the local audience.
There is a huge spread in the quality of poke places around here, and they're generally overpriced for what you get in the bowl, only partially offset by the stupid insane rent.
But we're talking about places where Scrod (in practice, whatever whitefish isn't past spoilage date - when I used to live there in the '00s) is considered a treat/ the-most-disgusting-food-in-the-world.
Low/Medium end poke places are pretty interchangeable; it's the sauces that makes any of them stand out outside of uniqueness/ novelty, or sides that are particularly good (there's a place I like in my neighbourhood - the 'Hokey Poke' - that has a superior (fake) crab salad. "High end" (priced) Poke places tend not to be worth the money/ time.
posted by porpoise at 6:50 PM on May 8, 2018
There are a ton of Asian Chipotles out there. Freshroll, Tava, Inikitch, Inday...
It's weird knowing that Pei Wei is a branch of PF Chang's because their branding is so much worse than PF Chang's. (I can't speak to the food as PW doesn't exist where I live.) Comparing the menus, Pei Wei has ugly, tiny photos, bland descriptions, and in-your-face calorie counts. PF Chang's has larger, well-staged photos and descriptions that focus on the taste of the food. I feel like if Pei Wei could just do whatever their parent company is doing they'd be 80% of the way there.
Unlike the tone I expected the article to take, the consultants seemed to be doing perfectly reasonable things and giving the client actionable, good advice. Which they then apparently ignored in favor of taking actions totally inconsistent with their stated strategy. I'd be fascinated to learn the inside story on why.
posted by phoenixy at 7:32 PM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's weird knowing that Pei Wei is a branch of PF Chang's because their branding is so much worse than PF Chang's. (I can't speak to the food as PW doesn't exist where I live.) Comparing the menus, Pei Wei has ugly, tiny photos, bland descriptions, and in-your-face calorie counts. PF Chang's has larger, well-staged photos and descriptions that focus on the taste of the food. I feel like if Pei Wei could just do whatever their parent company is doing they'd be 80% of the way there.
Unlike the tone I expected the article to take, the consultants seemed to be doing perfectly reasonable things and giving the client actionable, good advice. Which they then apparently ignored in favor of taking actions totally inconsistent with their stated strategy. I'd be fascinated to learn the inside story on why.
posted by phoenixy at 7:32 PM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
There's also something kind of judgmental/orientalist about treating Asian cuisine as unique in it's requirements of fresh ingredients and skills. Mexican cuisine can involve incredibly elaborate recipes that take ages to make and lots of skill.
Yeah, not arguing against this at all. And how I'm trying to say what I've been trying to say has been bugging me - so let me acknowledge I'm not really communicating well and it's easy to assume I'm waxing orientalist. I'm not.
I'm mainly talking about labor economics and institutional kitchen knowledge.
The truth is I'm comparing anecdotal apples and oranges via American-Mexican chains serving highly Americanized Cali/Tex-mex - in this case, specifically Chipotle, which wouldn't know a torta from a turtle or Mole from a mole and couldn't economically touch the prep for the linked recipe - to specialty independent family restaurants - which can and is likely the only place you'd find a mole like that available.
While albeit the independent Asian places I visit may also be Americanized, the Thai and Vietnamese joints in particular in my part of the world seem to have "cheap, fast and fresh" nearly monopolized to the point I basically never eat out at all unless it's some kind of pan-Pacific Asian food because almost everything else in my price range is gross, greasy pub food or burgers or stuff I can make it at home.
And in my experience people who have done this kind of Pacific Asian cooking tend to have the best and fastest general knife skills in the kitchen when it comes to produce prep, because the food they grew up with hones those particular skills.
That "best, fastest" knife skill thing is usually worth double pay in any kitchen that knows what it's doing, because A) time is money and they can do (no, really) 4-8x the produce prep per unit of time and B) Presentation and consistency is also money in the till. It's not a skill that everyone learns easily.
What I'm not saying is that you have to be racially or ethnically Asian to cook Asian food or going off on some weird mall-sword guy tilt at Orientalism. I'm talking about actual kitchen knife and prep skills vs. labor economics.
I am saying it helps to have experience in this field and style of cooking - specifically fast, casual and fresh - and that that experience (and the cooking aesthetic) definitely tends to favor fresh veggies and treat veggies a lot differently than, say, French cuisine.
What I'm also saying is that based on my loose and fast kitchen and food service management experience, the idea of trying to train Chipotle or McDonald's level staff and pay to try to pull off the product at a given family Banh Mi stand sounds like an absolute logistical nightmare of nearly unimaginable proportions.
I have discovered that it can be difficult to find staff in that pay and experience bracket that can manage to reliably grill and assemble a hot dog, much less show up to work on time. Or at all. Or reliably wash their hands or use gloves, ugh.
I'm not just being withering or sarcastic or trying to be mean, just stating the reality of my food service experiences, and it's even worse at the well-formulated chain/franchise places where employee morale has been beaten to a fine featureless paste.
And Poke bowls are actually a good example of this being pulled off. Low manual prep work and infrastructure, easy prep training, easy portions, low waste. It might as well be an ice cream sundae or a burrito bowl. That's a win and a good business model and may indeed be "Asian Chipotle" of a sort.
My statement is still that it would be really difficult to pull off the quality that I'm locally used to at independent places that are very affordable and almost always a better meal per dollar than, say, just about any corporate fast or casual chain or franchise I can think of, and, sure, I guess I should recognize it isn't like this everywhere that isn't most of the west coast and I'm probably very fortunate and taking this for granted.
I'm surrounded by good, cheap food and affordable produce and I definitely do not live in anything resembling a food desert - and I have previously lived in some severe food deserts.
My other statement is that I don't think it's otherist to point out and acknowledge institutional kitchen knowledge whether it's cultural, family based or not.
So many non-chain restaurants of all kinds rely on verbal/oral institutional knowledge and history, and when we're talking about trying to "Chipotle" Asian food - I'm trying to point out that it's really difficult to capture that oral/verbal institutional kitchen knowledge and package it as Pei Wei and actually not whitewash and sugar-coat it until it's... not what it's claiming to be at all.
I don't think it's as easy to "Chipotle" the kind of Pacific Asian food (even the Americanized versions of it) as I understand it and I believe we're discussing, and that it's not as it was to "Chipotle" pretty basic Cal-mex burritos and have it be a profitable or popular chain or franchise business model.
I'm basing my statements on having had to in the past (and am currently writing) training guides for things as simple as how to make a latte or bake cookies to spec, and it's remarkable how difficult it is to actually accomplish this and reliably train people to be food service robots. It's even more difficult to teach passion and creativity in food service. Or pay for it.
I'm also basing my statements on directly comparing Asian food prep times and kitchen process requirements and what that actually does to a general-purpose kitchen compared to, say, straight French or general US American.
And that's with someone at the helm as head chef on a back of house of as much as twenty people on the line, and someone who isn't just ethnically Asian but a trained, schooled capital-C Chef with a focus in Asian cuisine. She'd tell you the same thing about prep time and flow compared to, say, hotel pans full of rice and beans and chopped meat for a burrito. The white/anglo chefs that worked along with her would tell you the same things about this.
I'm not saying "Ooo, Asian food is exotic" I'm saying "No, it's quantifiably a little more difficult to do well or scale or translate and this is kind of why we have P.F Changs and Pei Wei in the first place."
When ever we did Asian food at larger scales, whether to order or buffet, it was always way more labor intensive and complicated compared to something like, say, a roast beef sandwich. You can't really batch-cook and prep a light, veggie-forward stir fry and hold it for, say, two hours in hotel pans. It turns to mush.
You can do that with, say, a whole mess of roasts or chicken and jacketed potatoes and soggy asparagus. The prep and hold times for that kind of stuff is easy. You stir-fry fresh bean sprouts or snow peas and the hold time for those is about 10-15 minutes, max.
My other-other statement is that most people have no idea how insane food service is and what kind of people get hired for the job because they're desperate and basically no one else wants the job. I mean, just look at me. I'm fuckin' trail mix nuts and I actually like being a barista and cooking for people.
It's amazing to me that we even have restaurants and dining at all. Even a well run establishment - when running at full tilt - usually feels like it's just a wrong word or two away from a riot.
posted by loquacious at 10:39 PM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah, not arguing against this at all. And how I'm trying to say what I've been trying to say has been bugging me - so let me acknowledge I'm not really communicating well and it's easy to assume I'm waxing orientalist. I'm not.
I'm mainly talking about labor economics and institutional kitchen knowledge.
The truth is I'm comparing anecdotal apples and oranges via American-Mexican chains serving highly Americanized Cali/Tex-mex - in this case, specifically Chipotle, which wouldn't know a torta from a turtle or Mole from a mole and couldn't economically touch the prep for the linked recipe - to specialty independent family restaurants - which can and is likely the only place you'd find a mole like that available.
While albeit the independent Asian places I visit may also be Americanized, the Thai and Vietnamese joints in particular in my part of the world seem to have "cheap, fast and fresh" nearly monopolized to the point I basically never eat out at all unless it's some kind of pan-Pacific Asian food because almost everything else in my price range is gross, greasy pub food or burgers or stuff I can make it at home.
And in my experience people who have done this kind of Pacific Asian cooking tend to have the best and fastest general knife skills in the kitchen when it comes to produce prep, because the food they grew up with hones those particular skills.
That "best, fastest" knife skill thing is usually worth double pay in any kitchen that knows what it's doing, because A) time is money and they can do (no, really) 4-8x the produce prep per unit of time and B) Presentation and consistency is also money in the till. It's not a skill that everyone learns easily.
What I'm not saying is that you have to be racially or ethnically Asian to cook Asian food or going off on some weird mall-sword guy tilt at Orientalism. I'm talking about actual kitchen knife and prep skills vs. labor economics.
I am saying it helps to have experience in this field and style of cooking - specifically fast, casual and fresh - and that that experience (and the cooking aesthetic) definitely tends to favor fresh veggies and treat veggies a lot differently than, say, French cuisine.
What I'm also saying is that based on my loose and fast kitchen and food service management experience, the idea of trying to train Chipotle or McDonald's level staff and pay to try to pull off the product at a given family Banh Mi stand sounds like an absolute logistical nightmare of nearly unimaginable proportions.
I have discovered that it can be difficult to find staff in that pay and experience bracket that can manage to reliably grill and assemble a hot dog, much less show up to work on time. Or at all. Or reliably wash their hands or use gloves, ugh.
I'm not just being withering or sarcastic or trying to be mean, just stating the reality of my food service experiences, and it's even worse at the well-formulated chain/franchise places where employee morale has been beaten to a fine featureless paste.
And Poke bowls are actually a good example of this being pulled off. Low manual prep work and infrastructure, easy prep training, easy portions, low waste. It might as well be an ice cream sundae or a burrito bowl. That's a win and a good business model and may indeed be "Asian Chipotle" of a sort.
My statement is still that it would be really difficult to pull off the quality that I'm locally used to at independent places that are very affordable and almost always a better meal per dollar than, say, just about any corporate fast or casual chain or franchise I can think of, and, sure, I guess I should recognize it isn't like this everywhere that isn't most of the west coast and I'm probably very fortunate and taking this for granted.
I'm surrounded by good, cheap food and affordable produce and I definitely do not live in anything resembling a food desert - and I have previously lived in some severe food deserts.
My other statement is that I don't think it's otherist to point out and acknowledge institutional kitchen knowledge whether it's cultural, family based or not.
So many non-chain restaurants of all kinds rely on verbal/oral institutional knowledge and history, and when we're talking about trying to "Chipotle" Asian food - I'm trying to point out that it's really difficult to capture that oral/verbal institutional kitchen knowledge and package it as Pei Wei and actually not whitewash and sugar-coat it until it's... not what it's claiming to be at all.
I don't think it's as easy to "Chipotle" the kind of Pacific Asian food (even the Americanized versions of it) as I understand it and I believe we're discussing, and that it's not as it was to "Chipotle" pretty basic Cal-mex burritos and have it be a profitable or popular chain or franchise business model.
I'm basing my statements on having had to in the past (and am currently writing) training guides for things as simple as how to make a latte or bake cookies to spec, and it's remarkable how difficult it is to actually accomplish this and reliably train people to be food service robots. It's even more difficult to teach passion and creativity in food service. Or pay for it.
I'm also basing my statements on directly comparing Asian food prep times and kitchen process requirements and what that actually does to a general-purpose kitchen compared to, say, straight French or general US American.
And that's with someone at the helm as head chef on a back of house of as much as twenty people on the line, and someone who isn't just ethnically Asian but a trained, schooled capital-C Chef with a focus in Asian cuisine. She'd tell you the same thing about prep time and flow compared to, say, hotel pans full of rice and beans and chopped meat for a burrito. The white/anglo chefs that worked along with her would tell you the same things about this.
I'm not saying "Ooo, Asian food is exotic" I'm saying "No, it's quantifiably a little more difficult to do well or scale or translate and this is kind of why we have P.F Changs and Pei Wei in the first place."
When ever we did Asian food at larger scales, whether to order or buffet, it was always way more labor intensive and complicated compared to something like, say, a roast beef sandwich. You can't really batch-cook and prep a light, veggie-forward stir fry and hold it for, say, two hours in hotel pans. It turns to mush.
You can do that with, say, a whole mess of roasts or chicken and jacketed potatoes and soggy asparagus. The prep and hold times for that kind of stuff is easy. You stir-fry fresh bean sprouts or snow peas and the hold time for those is about 10-15 minutes, max.
My other-other statement is that most people have no idea how insane food service is and what kind of people get hired for the job because they're desperate and basically no one else wants the job. I mean, just look at me. I'm fuckin' trail mix nuts and I actually like being a barista and cooking for people.
It's amazing to me that we even have restaurants and dining at all. Even a well run establishment - when running at full tilt - usually feels like it's just a wrong word or two away from a riot.
posted by loquacious at 10:39 PM on May 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
loquacious, you've nailed it. I live in the international neighborhood in Albany. I can walk to any kind of ethnic food easily, family owned, and what you say about specialized skills and knowledge, that can't be commercialized plays true.
posted by mikelieman at 2:55 AM on May 9, 2018
posted by mikelieman at 2:55 AM on May 9, 2018
I worked as a creative director in the agency world for 20 years. That article gave me PTSD. Ugh, the client meetings.
posted by misterpatrick at 4:36 PM on May 9, 2018
posted by misterpatrick at 4:36 PM on May 9, 2018
I feel we should pastafy it by 10% or so.
posted by rhizome at 10:03 PM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 10:03 PM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
just wanted to jump on the banh train (is banh [auto]bahn too much of a stretch?) and say that i once did write a yelp review of my favourite banh place saying "the world would know justice if there were even half as many of these as mcdonald's." like 3 bucks for something that is also tastier and probably more nutritious than most things three times the price?
but my favourite food of all time before banh was bao (when i lived on the west coast; unfortunately hard to find good+cheap bao out east). good chaa siu bao is perfection; bad chaa siu bao (like i've had in toronto, some cold porky slurry dripping grease on the inside) is quite literally inedible
posted by LeviQayin at 5:37 AM on May 10, 2018
but my favourite food of all time before banh was bao (when i lived on the west coast; unfortunately hard to find good+cheap bao out east). good chaa siu bao is perfection; bad chaa siu bao (like i've had in toronto, some cold porky slurry dripping grease on the inside) is quite literally inedible
posted by LeviQayin at 5:37 AM on May 10, 2018
loquacious, I agree with everything you say about the specialized skills needed for those dishes, but I think you're overlooking the rest of Chinese cuisine that might be more easily scaled up.
American restaurants also do not serve the full breadth of American cuisine but rather some subset that's been selected and altered for ease of bulk preparation.
Some Chinese foods that are not so labor-intensive or scale well:
posted by d. z. wang at 3:06 PM on May 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
American restaurants also do not serve the full breadth of American cuisine but rather some subset that's been selected and altered for ease of bulk preparation.
Some Chinese foods that are not so labor-intensive or scale well:
- Tomato and egg
- Okra and egg
- Red cooked pork
- Pork, tofu, and bamboo soup
- Fish fillet "steamed" in a microwave with ginger and scallion (I don't know why that recipe says it takes 45 minutes to microwave the fillets for 3 minutes and the ginger-scallion oil for 1 minute. It takes 4.5 minutes.)
posted by d. z. wang at 3:06 PM on May 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
Some Chinese foods that are not so labor-intensive or scale well:
Those look great prep wise, and I would eat them, too - but it's not what US consumers think of when they think "Chinese food" - which US consumers are obviously wrong about.
Perhaps another way to argue this point: China has military bases, universities, and hospitals that run high-volume cafeterias without rooms full of grandmothers doing meticulous knife work. It is possible to prepare Chinese food for large groups. You just don't make them beautiful, delicate stir-fries.
That sounds a lot like Panda Express, which wasn't what I was talking about at all. I also wasn't talking about institutional or military food service that wasn't intended for US retail.
The very narrow focus of my argument is: Can you "Chipotle" as a verb or process something that already exists in the US - the fast, fresh (produce focused) and cheap food available at, say, Vietnamese and Thai family restaurants?
The institutional food of universities and military bases aren't even in the realm of what we're talking about. We're talking about food service as a retail business model specfically in the USA.
And again, I'm not trying to say "It's impossible to do large scale commercial Asian food."
What I'm saying is that "It's extremely difficult to scale that kind of family business and both retain the quality and price point and still be an economically viable business or franchise." where the "economically viable" is the most important part of the "Can you "Chipotle"..." thought exercise.
My argument is still that in the USA it would be difficult if not impossible to do, say, an economically viable and successful Banh Mi stand without cheap family labor and the inherent institutional knowledge - as opposed to hiring minimum wage food service workers (Again, as found and available in the US, complete with US labor laws).
And again, it's not just about these family workers and owner-operators being any race or ethnicity at all, or simply about knife skills. The institutional knowledge is part of it, but the other part of it is that family labor doesn't pay attention to minimum wage or labor laws.
Family labor can legally work for less than minimum wage, and they do. They can also legally not take breaks and do all kinds of things that would violate US labor laws.
And, again, I'm not pointing out this practice of family labor as being a negative thing or racially loaded in any way. Plenty of white/anglo family businesses do this too. See also: Farming. I'm just trying to remind people that family labor is a thing and it's cheaper than hiring minimum wage high school kids.
posted by loquacious at 7:10 AM on May 11, 2018
Those look great prep wise, and I would eat them, too - but it's not what US consumers think of when they think "Chinese food" - which US consumers are obviously wrong about.
Perhaps another way to argue this point: China has military bases, universities, and hospitals that run high-volume cafeterias without rooms full of grandmothers doing meticulous knife work. It is possible to prepare Chinese food for large groups. You just don't make them beautiful, delicate stir-fries.
That sounds a lot like Panda Express, which wasn't what I was talking about at all. I also wasn't talking about institutional or military food service that wasn't intended for US retail.
The very narrow focus of my argument is: Can you "Chipotle" as a verb or process something that already exists in the US - the fast, fresh (produce focused) and cheap food available at, say, Vietnamese and Thai family restaurants?
The institutional food of universities and military bases aren't even in the realm of what we're talking about. We're talking about food service as a retail business model specfically in the USA.
And again, I'm not trying to say "It's impossible to do large scale commercial Asian food."
What I'm saying is that "It's extremely difficult to scale that kind of family business and both retain the quality and price point and still be an economically viable business or franchise." where the "economically viable" is the most important part of the "Can you "Chipotle"..." thought exercise.
My argument is still that in the USA it would be difficult if not impossible to do, say, an economically viable and successful Banh Mi stand without cheap family labor and the inherent institutional knowledge - as opposed to hiring minimum wage food service workers (Again, as found and available in the US, complete with US labor laws).
And again, it's not just about these family workers and owner-operators being any race or ethnicity at all, or simply about knife skills. The institutional knowledge is part of it, but the other part of it is that family labor doesn't pay attention to minimum wage or labor laws.
Family labor can legally work for less than minimum wage, and they do. They can also legally not take breaks and do all kinds of things that would violate US labor laws.
And, again, I'm not pointing out this practice of family labor as being a negative thing or racially loaded in any way. Plenty of white/anglo family businesses do this too. See also: Farming. I'm just trying to remind people that family labor is a thing and it's cheaper than hiring minimum wage high school kids.
posted by loquacious at 7:10 AM on May 11, 2018
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posted by boo_radley at 9:40 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]