Shooting and aftermath
May 28, 2018 11:37 AM Subscribe
In October, 2017 Stephen Paddock, driven by right-wing conspiracy theories, set up a snipers nest in a Las Vegas hotel and opened fire on a concert crowd. In just over ten minutes he killed 58 people and injured 546, making it the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history. Six months and many shootings later it has faded in public consciousness, but the scars remain: WHAT HAPPENED IN VEGAS.
This. Is. Terrorism.
posted by Ruki at 11:58 AM on May 28, 2018 [45 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 11:58 AM on May 28, 2018 [45 favorites]
I'm from Vegas (born & raised), though I haven't lived there for a decade. Pretty much everyone I still know there feels bewildered by how this has just faded into the background noise. I don't say it to them directly, but I can't help but imagine that, in such a gun-nutty country, it's the same exact thing that the survivors of each shooting both before and since end up feeling, which is itself a sad indictment on this nation.
posted by mystyk at 12:00 PM on May 28, 2018 [45 favorites]
posted by mystyk at 12:00 PM on May 28, 2018 [45 favorites]
Thoughts and prayers.
#______STRONG.
Nothing changes.
Repeat.
posted by davebush at 12:05 PM on May 28, 2018 [27 favorites]
#______STRONG.
Nothing changes.
Repeat.
posted by davebush at 12:05 PM on May 28, 2018 [27 favorites]
which is itself a sad indictment on this nation.
price of freedom
posted by philip-random at 12:06 PM on May 28, 2018
price of freedom
posted by philip-random at 12:06 PM on May 28, 2018
I’m at Punk Rock Bowling, a three day music fest in downtown Vegas this weekend. I’ve been to many music fests in my life, and for a moment this time I actually felt a moment of vulnerability. I imagined for a second that a person could easily target the Downtown Events Center from a room in the Golden Nugget and I felt a chill. So fucked up. I also still can’t believe how easily people can forget and do nothing, everything feels so deeply fucked under this current administration.
I saw a guy wearing the old “ROCK AGAINST BUSH” tour shirt, and I was like wow. If we only knew then what was coming up in our future. The energy against Bush II was so strong in the community then, but besides a few “NOT MY PRESIDENT” shirts, even punx now seem to be tepid against resistance vs the past for some reason.
posted by xtine at 12:13 PM on May 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
I saw a guy wearing the old “ROCK AGAINST BUSH” tour shirt, and I was like wow. If we only knew then what was coming up in our future. The energy against Bush II was so strong in the community then, but besides a few “NOT MY PRESIDENT” shirts, even punx now seem to be tepid against resistance vs the past for some reason.
posted by xtine at 12:13 PM on May 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
My best friends older brother and his fiancee were in Vegas celebrating her birthday and the end of her maternity leave. She was shot and he carried her to a cab where she died enroute to a hospital. He's fallen into the QAnnon Trump is saving hundreds of kids from sex slavery conspiracies and I just want to burn the world down.
posted by Uncle at 12:14 PM on May 28, 2018 [106 favorites]
posted by Uncle at 12:14 PM on May 28, 2018 [106 favorites]
Previously: 50 plus dead in Las Vegas mass shooting
Previously: How gun violence affects kids across America
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:14 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Previously: How gun violence affects kids across America
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:14 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Man that database in the Mother Jones article is long and depressing.
posted by Sphinx at 12:15 PM on May 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Sphinx at 12:15 PM on May 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I hadn't read anything about the motives behind the attack except the police saying there was no clear motive, which I always figured indicated a level of alt-right/right wing conspiracy thinking. So to see that confirmed is just confirmation of what feels like an ongoing series of depressing things in the world.
posted by nubs at 12:35 PM on May 28, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by nubs at 12:35 PM on May 28, 2018 [15 favorites]
I don't know why it never occurred to me that someone, somewhere, might actually DO something with all the stuff people leave as memorials.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:42 PM on May 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 12:42 PM on May 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Remember how the internet was supposed to connect us all and usher in a new age of enlightened democracy? Apparently nobody stopped to consider that if you get a bunch of crackpots together, they amplify each other. Pre-internet, maybe this guy would have been the kind of loner nut who gets in a confrontation with the mailman over the overreach of government power.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:44 PM on May 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:44 PM on May 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
The Stop The Bleed program is a good idea, but I can't help thinking how it's like how black families have to teach their kids how to deal with the police for their own safety. Because of a lack of real action by our government, we have to adapt to living in a war zone environment.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:56 PM on May 28, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:56 PM on May 28, 2018 [21 favorites]
→ the police saying there was no clear motive
trust the guys with guns not to understand that guys with guns can be the problem
posted by scruss at 1:13 PM on May 28, 2018 [46 favorites]
trust the guys with guns not to understand that guys with guns can be the problem
posted by scruss at 1:13 PM on May 28, 2018 [46 favorites]
> Six months and many shootings later it has faded in public consciousness
Sit and think a bit and let that soak in.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:18 PM on May 28, 2018 [25 favorites]
Sit and think a bit and let that soak in.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:18 PM on May 28, 2018 [25 favorites]
Pre-internet, maybe this guy would have been the kind of loner nut who gets in a confrontation with the mailman over the overreach of government power.
I can remember finding incoherent screeds and fervid rants actually stapled to telephone poles.
posted by thelonius at 1:21 PM on May 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
I can remember finding incoherent screeds and fervid rants actually stapled to telephone poles.
posted by thelonius at 1:21 PM on May 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
Our office manager was at that concert and told us stories about how she and her husband were running for their lives.
I gather that several months later they received a gift card from the concert promoters for their trouble. They were uninjured, but I suspect that would pay for about 30 seconds of medical care for some of the people who were not so lucky.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:24 PM on May 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I gather that several months later they received a gift card from the concert promoters for their trouble. They were uninjured, but I suspect that would pay for about 30 seconds of medical care for some of the people who were not so lucky.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:24 PM on May 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
The depressing thing is that the Vegas shooting itself is now part of conspiracy theory.
posted by Pembquist at 1:26 PM on May 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Pembquist at 1:26 PM on May 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
the police saying there was no clear motive
i'm not clear on how an atrocity like this advances any kind of political or social cause, even those that are way out there and advocate violence towards the government or the system
it just doesn't add up
posted by pyramid termite at 1:33 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
i'm not clear on how an atrocity like this advances any kind of political or social cause, even those that are way out there and advocate violence towards the government or the system
it just doesn't add up
posted by pyramid termite at 1:33 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
i'm not clear on how an atrocity like this advances any kind of political or social cause
I think his idea was this (from the Guardian article):
At this point Paddock launched into a rant about “anti-government stuff … Fema camps”. Paddock said that the evacuation of people by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (Fema) after Hurricane Katrina was a a “dry run for law enforcement and military to start kickin’ down doors and ... confiscating guns”.
“Somebody has to wake up the American public and get them to arm themselves,” the man says Paddock told him. “Sometimes sacrifices have to be made.”
posted by tarshish bound at 1:37 PM on May 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
I think his idea was this (from the Guardian article):
At this point Paddock launched into a rant about “anti-government stuff … Fema camps”. Paddock said that the evacuation of people by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (Fema) after Hurricane Katrina was a a “dry run for law enforcement and military to start kickin’ down doors and ... confiscating guns”.
“Somebody has to wake up the American public and get them to arm themselves,” the man says Paddock told him. “Sometimes sacrifices have to be made.”
posted by tarshish bound at 1:37 PM on May 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
“Somebody has to wake up the American public and get them to arm themselves,” the man says Paddock told him. “Sometimes sacrifices have to be made.”
So directly pro-gun terrorism. He had a political goal, the same goal as the NRA. Was he a member of the NRA?
Can we designate them a terrorist organization now?
posted by schadenfrau at 1:41 PM on May 28, 2018 [63 favorites]
So directly pro-gun terrorism. He had a political goal, the same goal as the NRA. Was he a member of the NRA?
Can we designate them a terrorist organization now?
posted by schadenfrau at 1:41 PM on May 28, 2018 [63 favorites]
I wonder what fraction of violence is committed in this world that the perpetrators haven't justified to themselves as being in some way for a good cause, either as a punishment, or a matter of self-defense, or as a divine right. Which is not to say that people shouldn't defend themselves. But it seems like there's a lot of anger out there looking for a person to dehumanize, which is incredibly tragic.
posted by tarshish bound at 1:44 PM on May 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by tarshish bound at 1:44 PM on May 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
LIVE FREE OR DIE IN CONSTANT FEAR OF EVERYTHING AND THE ONLY CURE IS MORE GUNS THAN THE NUMBER OF GUNS YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:45 PM on May 28, 2018 [35 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:45 PM on May 28, 2018 [35 favorites]
Las Vegas Shooter Stephen Paddock’s Weapons Included the NRA’s ‘Gun of the Year’ <- includes a Trump tweet from 2012 that kind of twists your mind around, as well as a speech from last year where he tells the NRA that they are vital because "we live in dangerous times", i.e. exactly what The Card Cheat said.
I remember after the shooting the NRA was under enough pressure that they pushed for legislation banning bump stocks. Do you folks think that passing that kind of legislation is better than nothing or worse? My gut feeling is that putting any kind of law on the books helps make renew the moral argument that yes, we can still decide as a society to regulate some objects that people can use to hurt each other, which can help with further discussions of gun control, but perhaps it is better to have a more substantive debate and subsequent law?
posted by tarshish bound at 1:53 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I remember after the shooting the NRA was under enough pressure that they pushed for legislation banning bump stocks. Do you folks think that passing that kind of legislation is better than nothing or worse? My gut feeling is that putting any kind of law on the books helps make renew the moral argument that yes, we can still decide as a society to regulate some objects that people can use to hurt each other, which can help with further discussions of gun control, but perhaps it is better to have a more substantive debate and subsequent law?
posted by tarshish bound at 1:53 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also, Uncle I'm so sorry for your friend and his family. That's really sad. The QAnon stuff reminds me of my friend who lost an uncle in 9/11, and then became a truther. Conspiracies are an awful comfort.
posted by tarshish bound at 1:58 PM on May 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by tarshish bound at 1:58 PM on May 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
He lost millions in a few years playing video poker exclusively, and hit bottom while bragging about occasional winnings all the way down. He was likely chasing after a progressive jackpot, hoping to win millions on a royal flush and receive his ultimate validation at outsmarting the system.
posted by Brian B. at 2:17 PM on May 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 2:17 PM on May 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
The motive is almost always rage filled resentment at thwarted entitlement, to a certain degree the details besides that don't matter, though conspiracy theories and right wing politics form extremely fertile grounds for that resentment to grow in.
posted by Artw at 2:21 PM on May 28, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:21 PM on May 28, 2018 [30 favorites]
I've heard talk about the sovereign citizen stuff here and there and how nutty it is. Reading the SPLC link from GuyZero I think it's worse in that it feels very post-apocalyptic - a religion derived from capitalism with the state as its enemy, where capitalism is the only lens left with which to examine existence, but even that has collapsed. Hints of mental illness, trauma, poor education, poor emotional development, it all reads like what I expect from a world where civilization has collapsed, where the devolved belief systems that remain are cargo cults that are otherwise orthogonal to anything beyond the rage filled mammalian ego.
posted by MillMan at 2:31 PM on May 28, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by MillMan at 2:31 PM on May 28, 2018 [32 favorites]
He was likely chasing after a progressive jackpot, hoping to win millions on a royal flush and receive his ultimate validation at outsmarting the system.
and always with a backup plan should all that fail, so he wouldn't have to live with the humiliation at being about as wrong about everything as a man could possibly be. Ego is a monster.
posted by philip-random at 2:33 PM on May 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
and always with a backup plan should all that fail, so he wouldn't have to live with the humiliation at being about as wrong about everything as a man could possibly be. Ego is a monster.
posted by philip-random at 2:33 PM on May 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I am so sorry Uncle! It’s bad enough the man’swife died. Having him go off the deep end like that is also pretty terrible. I hope he comes out of it. Half the country seems to be in serious need of deprogramming.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 2:39 PM on May 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 2:39 PM on May 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I remember thinking, as this was happening, that there was absolutely no way in hell that this fucker didn't have some sort of toxic ideology. Buying that many guns is, in and of itself, a direct declaration of anti-social pathology. Alex Jones deserves to be in prison for the vileness that he's made himself rich propagating. Prison is the least of what he deserves.
posted by codacorolla at 2:43 PM on May 28, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 2:43 PM on May 28, 2018 [24 favorites]
I remember after the shooting the NRA was under enough pressure that they pushed for legislation banning bump stocks. Do you folks think that passing that kind of legislation is better than nothing or worse? My gut feeling is that putting any kind of law on the books helps make renew the moral argument that yes, we can still decide as a society to regulate some objects that people can use to hurt each other, which can help with further discussions of gun control, but perhaps it is better to have a more substantive debate and subsequent law?
I think it is worse than nothing, it provides a cover for the NRA and gun groups to look the part of responding, while still only banning a small segment of their market, and in the specific case of bump-stocks, one that was historically a kinda laughable range toy. Things like that make firing rapidly easier, but you can still do just as much damage with a plain ol semi-automatic right off the shelf. You can just look back at the abject failure that was the AWB, it took about a year and a half for most gun companies to find ways to subvert rules based on features and accessories.
It takes the air out of the conversation that people actually need to have to stop gun violence, which would probably take decades of buy-backs and much, much stricter purchasing requirements for guns and ammo, or a mass disarmament when we aren't even sure how many or who has what guns in the country with the most guns. That conversation needs as much energy as possible, cause either are going to have to take a massive amount of political will.
posted by neonrev at 3:08 PM on May 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
I think it is worse than nothing, it provides a cover for the NRA and gun groups to look the part of responding, while still only banning a small segment of their market, and in the specific case of bump-stocks, one that was historically a kinda laughable range toy. Things like that make firing rapidly easier, but you can still do just as much damage with a plain ol semi-automatic right off the shelf. You can just look back at the abject failure that was the AWB, it took about a year and a half for most gun companies to find ways to subvert rules based on features and accessories.
It takes the air out of the conversation that people actually need to have to stop gun violence, which would probably take decades of buy-backs and much, much stricter purchasing requirements for guns and ammo, or a mass disarmament when we aren't even sure how many or who has what guns in the country with the most guns. That conversation needs as much energy as possible, cause either are going to have to take a massive amount of political will.
posted by neonrev at 3:08 PM on May 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
i'm not clear on how an atrocity like this advances any kind of political or social cause
Most of the suicidal attacks I've read about only make sense in the attacker's own frame of reference. Sometimes the attackers are operationalised by a terrorist group (or they subsequently operationalise it by "claiming responsibility") but the destructive impulse usually comes first.
When these attacks aren't sophisticated we tend to call it "suicide by cop", but I don't see a conceptual difference between the Las Vegas attack and, e.g., someone randomly stabbing strangers. The practical difference, of course, is that Paddock was enabled and potentiated by laws that let him accumulate vast quantities of weapons and a culture that made it impossible to even question his motives in doing so.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:57 PM on May 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
Most of the suicidal attacks I've read about only make sense in the attacker's own frame of reference. Sometimes the attackers are operationalised by a terrorist group (or they subsequently operationalise it by "claiming responsibility") but the destructive impulse usually comes first.
When these attacks aren't sophisticated we tend to call it "suicide by cop", but I don't see a conceptual difference between the Las Vegas attack and, e.g., someone randomly stabbing strangers. The practical difference, of course, is that Paddock was enabled and potentiated by laws that let him accumulate vast quantities of weapons and a culture that made it impossible to even question his motives in doing so.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:57 PM on May 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
As many guns as he had, and the way (as I recall) he had at least two set up on tripods in front of the windows, I wonder whether he thought some other shooters would be joining him, but they bailed.
posted by jamjam at 4:03 PM on May 28, 2018
posted by jamjam at 4:03 PM on May 28, 2018
As many guns as he had, and the way (as I recall) he had at least two set up on tripods in front of the windows, I wonder whether he thought some other shooters would be joining him, but they bailed.
Eh, possible, but if you've ever shot guns, you know that they jam, need cleaning, overheat, and otherwise are unreliable for extended shooting sessions. This is exacerbated when using a weapon designed to be a light personal arm as a heavy machine gun. Heavy machine guns need heavy barrels and cooling systems, and even then the barrels need to be swapped frequently. An AR doesn't have those, so he was basically guaranteed to need more than one of them set up.
posted by agentofselection at 4:21 PM on May 28, 2018 [14 favorites]
Eh, possible, but if you've ever shot guns, you know that they jam, need cleaning, overheat, and otherwise are unreliable for extended shooting sessions. This is exacerbated when using a weapon designed to be a light personal arm as a heavy machine gun. Heavy machine guns need heavy barrels and cooling systems, and even then the barrels need to be swapped frequently. An AR doesn't have those, so he was basically guaranteed to need more than one of them set up.
posted by agentofselection at 4:21 PM on May 28, 2018 [14 favorites]
I think it is worse than nothing, it provides a cover for the NRA and gun groups to look the part of responding, while still only banning a small segment of their market, and in the specific case of bump-stocks, one that was historically a kinda laughable range toy.
Also note that even that bit of theater has faded from the federal agenda. I guess a state or two has enacted bump stock bans since, maybe?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 4:29 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also note that even that bit of theater has faded from the federal agenda. I guess a state or two has enacted bump stock bans since, maybe?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 4:29 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also note that even that bit of theater has faded from the federal agenda. I guess a state or two has enacted bump stock bans since, maybe?
Absolutely, and I also wonder if having the few states where there is the will to enact anything like gun control (CA primarily) enact what are, in essence, pointless laws, helps those states more than it helps the NRA in the form of new things to scream about in their mailers and magazines and fundraisers. I know from having been a member and reading their literature when I was much younger that literally any bill, any law, any court case involving guns being restricted is blown up into a full-on attack on the 2nd Amendment.
It feels conspiracy theory-esque, but it seems like briefly supporting the banning of bump stocks and then slamming anywhere that does as a fundraising tactic would be well within their MO.
(also re: multiple shooters, even if you're not concerned about mechanical issues, having a couple pre-set points to move between is pretty common urban sniping technique. Harder to shoot back at and it can make it seem as if there are more than one shooter. Legit insurgent fighter tactics, but there's nothing to worry about here, clearly.)
posted by neonrev at 4:42 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Absolutely, and I also wonder if having the few states where there is the will to enact anything like gun control (CA primarily) enact what are, in essence, pointless laws, helps those states more than it helps the NRA in the form of new things to scream about in their mailers and magazines and fundraisers. I know from having been a member and reading their literature when I was much younger that literally any bill, any law, any court case involving guns being restricted is blown up into a full-on attack on the 2nd Amendment.
It feels conspiracy theory-esque, but it seems like briefly supporting the banning of bump stocks and then slamming anywhere that does as a fundraising tactic would be well within their MO.
(also re: multiple shooters, even if you're not concerned about mechanical issues, having a couple pre-set points to move between is pretty common urban sniping technique. Harder to shoot back at and it can make it seem as if there are more than one shooter. Legit insurgent fighter tactics, but there's nothing to worry about here, clearly.)
posted by neonrev at 4:42 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
please go knock doors this fall.
posted by dogheart at 5:22 PM on May 28, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by dogheart at 5:22 PM on May 28, 2018 [19 favorites]
Apparently nobody stopped to consider that if you get a bunch of crackpots together, they amplify each other.
Monsters from the Id.
It is remarkable that almost no one guessed at the kinds of criminal and antisocial behaviors the internet would abet. Even sci-fi authors tended to imagine cyberspace as just a place where criminals could criminal, not as an active agent in the transmission of folie à plusieurs.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:37 PM on May 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Monsters from the Id.
It is remarkable that almost no one guessed at the kinds of criminal and antisocial behaviors the internet would abet. Even sci-fi authors tended to imagine cyberspace as just a place where criminals could criminal, not as an active agent in the transmission of folie à plusieurs.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:37 PM on May 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
About three weeks ago on FB, an older and conspiratorially-minded acquaintance of mine who was in just-pre HC era punk bands and who loves sports as well as seventies esoterica such as the sprawling samizdat literature on the Zodiac Killer made a joke about how a Las Vegas pro sport team (hockey? I have no idea) had the fix in to win the title because he hypothesizes that local-area disasters asymptotically produce professional sporting championship teams.
I engaged with him on this and cited a few examples that reinforce his hypothesis, most notably the post-Tohuku quake NPB championship of the Rakuten Eagles. But as I did this, I wracked my brain to try to remember a Vegas public catastrophe, and the only, THE ONLY, thing I could come up with was the more-than-decade gone closing of the Star Trek Experience. Obviously that doesn't count.
Thankfully he understood my STE joke but it was this shooting he was referring to. I literally didn't remember it. I had to go find the news reports to remind myself that this really happened and what it was that was being referred to.
The only thing I can possibly offer that is hopeful about this situation is that fame-seeking as a justification for this sort of bullshit is unequivocally Not Working. So hopefully that reduces the number of events somewhat over time.
posted by mwhybark at 5:48 PM on May 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I engaged with him on this and cited a few examples that reinforce his hypothesis, most notably the post-Tohuku quake NPB championship of the Rakuten Eagles. But as I did this, I wracked my brain to try to remember a Vegas public catastrophe, and the only, THE ONLY, thing I could come up with was the more-than-decade gone closing of the Star Trek Experience. Obviously that doesn't count.
Thankfully he understood my STE joke but it was this shooting he was referring to. I literally didn't remember it. I had to go find the news reports to remind myself that this really happened and what it was that was being referred to.
The only thing I can possibly offer that is hopeful about this situation is that fame-seeking as a justification for this sort of bullshit is unequivocally Not Working. So hopefully that reduces the number of events somewhat over time.
posted by mwhybark at 5:48 PM on May 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm so glad for the trend - as seen in the MJ article - of not naming these monsters so as to not glorify them or remember their names.
posted by bendy at 5:53 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by bendy at 5:53 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Las Vegas pro sport team (hockey? I have no idea) had the fix in to win the title because he hypothesizes that local-area disasters asymptotically produce professional sporting championship teams.
The Vegas Golden Knights hockey team are generally considered to have been a bonding and healing factor after shooting. Opening night was about 9 days after the shooting; they honored the first responders, held 58 seconds of silence for the dead and had Vegas Strong instead of advertising on the sideboards. And donated at least 300K toward local trusts for affected families.
Someone just named their baby after a player.
And the Knights are in the Stanley Cup finals in their first season...'cause Vegas doesn't care what you think, the house always wins...
posted by beaning at 6:21 PM on May 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
The Vegas Golden Knights hockey team are generally considered to have been a bonding and healing factor after shooting. Opening night was about 9 days after the shooting; they honored the first responders, held 58 seconds of silence for the dead and had Vegas Strong instead of advertising on the sideboards. And donated at least 300K toward local trusts for affected families.
Someone just named their baby after a player.
And the Knights are in the Stanley Cup finals in their first season...'cause Vegas doesn't care what you think, the house always wins...
posted by beaning at 6:21 PM on May 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
trust the guys with guns not to understand that guys with guns can be the problem
Two days before my husband took his life, he sat in a circle of his guns, weeping and cleaning them. It was behavior I had never seen before.
When I went to the cops two days later, both scared for myself and my husband, the officer kindly explained how when he is stressed, he often cleans his guns, it’s probably nothing. But they did escort me in and they did talk to him. They thought he was fine.
Two hours later he killed himself.
But I guess sitting in a circle of your guns, crying, is normal? Same with the excess number of guns he owned. Hell, even I pushed down my own fears over his gun ownership and increasingly distressing relationship with those guns because our culture in the US tells us over and over that gun ownership is normal, that gun collecting is normal and okay.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:36 PM on May 28, 2018 [121 favorites]
Two days before my husband took his life, he sat in a circle of his guns, weeping and cleaning them. It was behavior I had never seen before.
When I went to the cops two days later, both scared for myself and my husband, the officer kindly explained how when he is stressed, he often cleans his guns, it’s probably nothing. But they did escort me in and they did talk to him. They thought he was fine.
Two hours later he killed himself.
But I guess sitting in a circle of your guns, crying, is normal? Same with the excess number of guns he owned. Hell, even I pushed down my own fears over his gun ownership and increasingly distressing relationship with those guns because our culture in the US tells us over and over that gun ownership is normal, that gun collecting is normal and okay.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:36 PM on May 28, 2018 [121 favorites]
From The California Sunday article linked in the FPP:
OCTOBER 4, 2017 Ticket booth for the Strip Gun Club
[In the background, the Mandalay Bay hotel, and on one of the top right rooms, the broken windows that Stephen Paddock fired from are clearly visible. In the foreground, a ticket booth advertising The Strip Gun Club (thestripgunclub.com). Just above the ticket booth, the sign for the Mandalay Bay has displayed on its marquee the words "Our prayers for the victims. Our gratitude for the brave First Responders."]
MAY 2, 2018 The ticket booth seven months later
[The same image, but the difference is: in the background is the Mandalay Bay hotel, with the windows that Stephen Paddock fired from having been repaired, good as new. In the foreground, the ticket booth has been stripped of the aforementioned Strip Gun Club advertising, its walls now blank. On the Mandalay Bay marquee are the words "WELCOME TO THE SHOW"]
And from the Strip Gun Club's "Firearm Selection" page:
RIFLES & SHOTGUNS
ZERO IN
Imagine holding your breath as you stare down the scope of a sniper rifle. You're in the power position. Are you going for pinpoint accuracy, or are you trying to cut your target in half? At Strip Gun Club, you don't have to choose.
Greg Palast's moniker "Armed Madhouse," gets more apt by the week, even if this wasn't exactly what he was referring to.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:38 PM on May 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
OCTOBER 4, 2017 Ticket booth for the Strip Gun Club
[In the background, the Mandalay Bay hotel, and on one of the top right rooms, the broken windows that Stephen Paddock fired from are clearly visible. In the foreground, a ticket booth advertising The Strip Gun Club (thestripgunclub.com). Just above the ticket booth, the sign for the Mandalay Bay has displayed on its marquee the words "Our prayers for the victims. Our gratitude for the brave First Responders."]
MAY 2, 2018 The ticket booth seven months later
[The same image, but the difference is: in the background is the Mandalay Bay hotel, with the windows that Stephen Paddock fired from having been repaired, good as new. In the foreground, the ticket booth has been stripped of the aforementioned Strip Gun Club advertising, its walls now blank. On the Mandalay Bay marquee are the words "WELCOME TO THE SHOW"]
And from the Strip Gun Club's "Firearm Selection" page:
RIFLES & SHOTGUNS
ZERO IN
Imagine holding your breath as you stare down the scope of a sniper rifle. You're in the power position. Are you going for pinpoint accuracy, or are you trying to cut your target in half? At Strip Gun Club, you don't have to choose.
Greg Palast's moniker "Armed Madhouse," gets more apt by the week, even if this wasn't exactly what he was referring to.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:38 PM on May 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
My point being that the people with the guns just cannot be trusted to solve our problem with guns in the US.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:38 PM on May 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:38 PM on May 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
I can certainly testify to the emotional impact of the Eagles' season both in their region and personally, although experienced via media on the internet. I do think it is reasonable that athletes playing for teams displaying an association with a disaster-affected region would experience a performance bump.
Glad for the backstory!
posted by mwhybark at 6:39 PM on May 28, 2018
Glad for the backstory!
posted by mwhybark at 6:39 PM on May 28, 2018
my god, [clever name]. I am so sorry for your loss, for your experience.
posted by mwhybark at 6:40 PM on May 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by mwhybark at 6:40 PM on May 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
och, I'm so sorry for your loss, [insert clever name here].
posted by scruss at 6:41 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by scruss at 6:41 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Holy shit. I'm so sorry, [insert clever name here].
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:45 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:45 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I am also very sorry for your loss, [insert clever name here]. The husband of a good friend of mine went in a similar manner, and it took a tremendous toll on her.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:26 PM on May 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:26 PM on May 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I am so sorry, [insert clever name here].
.
posted by mondo dentro at 7:33 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
.
posted by mondo dentro at 7:33 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
We had a shooting in a middle-school here Friday. A kid asked to be excused, left the classroom, then returned with two handguns. He shot a girl. The teacher managed to tackle the kid to the floor, but not before he was shot three times himself. In middle-school.
The very next day, the NRA had a tent set-up in the parking lot of a local gun store, to sign-up new members. The. Next. Fucking. Day.
I’m just so tired of this bullshit.
The teacher was released from the hospital yesterday. The girl remains in critical-but-stable condition.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:41 PM on May 28, 2018 [42 favorites]
The very next day, the NRA had a tent set-up in the parking lot of a local gun store, to sign-up new members. The. Next. Fucking. Day.
I’m just so tired of this bullshit.
The teacher was released from the hospital yesterday. The girl remains in critical-but-stable condition.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:41 PM on May 28, 2018 [42 favorites]
Since mass shootings inevitably result in a boost to NRA coffers and membership rosters, I've taken to calling mass shootings "NRA Fundraisers" when I talk about them on social media.
Actually, considering that the NRA exists only to increase gun sales, one could say that EVERY act of violence committed with a firearm is de facto an NRA fundraiser.
posted by JohnFromGR at 8:42 PM on May 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
Actually, considering that the NRA exists only to increase gun sales, one could say that EVERY act of violence committed with a firearm is de facto an NRA fundraiser.
posted by JohnFromGR at 8:42 PM on May 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
MAY 2, 2018 The ticket booth seven months later
Did it take SEVEN MONTHS for them to remove the signage?
posted by bendy at 8:58 PM on May 28, 2018
Did it take SEVEN MONTHS for them to remove the signage?
posted by bendy at 8:58 PM on May 28, 2018
Obligatory Dan Hodges tweet from 2015:
In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.
As others are saying, knock on doors since this is no longer a "debate" and never was. There's no reasoning on something so central to the national psyche, so this has to be something unilaterally brought to the floor from the left, in my view. There are no "checks" or databases or half-assed "bump stock bans" that will completely prevent this stuff. Directionally good policies, yes, but not of enough magnitude.
The NRA has shown recently it will fight with whichever arguments necessary to make sure meaningful restrictions don't happen:
“These kids aren’t being inspired by an innate hunk of plastic and metal laying on a table, they’re inspired by the infamous glory of past shooters who they relate to,” he said. “And no entity on the planet does a better job, whether directly or indirectly, of glorying these killers, and thereby providing the inspiration for the next one, than our mainstream media.”
Noir proposed a solution that would surely violate the First Amendment.
“It’s time to put an end to this glorification of carnage in pursuit of ratings, because it’s killing our kids,” he said. “It’s time for Congress to step up and pass legislation putting common-sense limitations on our mainstream media’s ability to report on these school shootings.”
He added: “Pass a law preventing the media from reporting killer’s name or showing his face.”
“You know that feeling of anxiety that shot through your body when I said the government should pass laws to limit the media’s ability to exercise their First Amendment rights? That’s the same feeling gun owners get when they hear people say the same thing about the Second Amendment,” he said. “However I vehemently disagree with the government infringing on the media’s First Amendment’s rights, the same way I don’t think the government should infringe on anyone’s Second Amendment rights.”
posted by hexaflexagon at 8:59 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.
As others are saying, knock on doors since this is no longer a "debate" and never was. There's no reasoning on something so central to the national psyche, so this has to be something unilaterally brought to the floor from the left, in my view. There are no "checks" or databases or half-assed "bump stock bans" that will completely prevent this stuff. Directionally good policies, yes, but not of enough magnitude.
The NRA has shown recently it will fight with whichever arguments necessary to make sure meaningful restrictions don't happen:
“These kids aren’t being inspired by an innate hunk of plastic and metal laying on a table, they’re inspired by the infamous glory of past shooters who they relate to,” he said. “And no entity on the planet does a better job, whether directly or indirectly, of glorying these killers, and thereby providing the inspiration for the next one, than our mainstream media.”
Noir proposed a solution that would surely violate the First Amendment.
“It’s time to put an end to this glorification of carnage in pursuit of ratings, because it’s killing our kids,” he said. “It’s time for Congress to step up and pass legislation putting common-sense limitations on our mainstream media’s ability to report on these school shootings.”
He added: “Pass a law preventing the media from reporting killer’s name or showing his face.”
“You know that feeling of anxiety that shot through your body when I said the government should pass laws to limit the media’s ability to exercise their First Amendment rights? That’s the same feeling gun owners get when they hear people say the same thing about the Second Amendment,” he said. “However I vehemently disagree with the government infringing on the media’s First Amendment’s rights, the same way I don’t think the government should infringe on anyone’s Second Amendment rights.”
posted by hexaflexagon at 8:59 PM on May 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
That's such a bad argument too- because WE DO have restrictions on the first amendment- libel laws, can't yell fire in a crowded theater- and not us, but most civilized nations have hate speech exemptions. But we have almost no restrictions on the second amendment because of slimeballs from the NRA. God they make me sick.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:13 PM on May 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:13 PM on May 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
I graduated from Virginia Tech in 2007, a month after the mass shooting there. It was, of course, a traumatic event for all of us there. During the aftermath, I remember one of my classmates saying something to the effect of "From now on, whenever we tell people we graduated from Virginia Tech, their first thought won't be the academics or the sports, it will be 'That's where the worst mass shooting in U.S. history happened.'" I remember thinking that people have shorter memories than that; one good season for our football team and that would be the thing people remembered most, no matter how awful the shooting had been. Eventually, only those of us who were there and the families of those who were killed would remember, marking the anniversary every year, even if only quietly and sadly to ourselves.
What I didn't think to wonder was how long it would be before an even worse mass shooting occurred. Five years later, the Sandy Hook shooting happened. Not quite as many people died, 28 versus our 33 but numbers alone don't capture the visceral horror of so many of the victims being elementary school children. Four years after that, the Pulse Nightclub shooting became the worst mass shooting in U.S. history, with 50 deaths. And then the very next year, Las Vegas: 59 dead, 851 injured.
I don't know how long the Las Vegas shooting will hold the infamy of being the worst mass shooting in U.S. history, but at the current pace, it probably won't be long.
posted by biogeo at 9:16 PM on May 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
What I didn't think to wonder was how long it would be before an even worse mass shooting occurred. Five years later, the Sandy Hook shooting happened. Not quite as many people died, 28 versus our 33 but numbers alone don't capture the visceral horror of so many of the victims being elementary school children. Four years after that, the Pulse Nightclub shooting became the worst mass shooting in U.S. history, with 50 deaths. And then the very next year, Las Vegas: 59 dead, 851 injured.
I don't know how long the Las Vegas shooting will hold the infamy of being the worst mass shooting in U.S. history, but at the current pace, it probably won't be long.
posted by biogeo at 9:16 PM on May 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
The Las Vegas massacre was the very definition of stochastic terrorism: "...the use of mass communications to incite random actors to carry out violent or terrorist acts that are statistically predictable but individually unpredictable."
The important thing here is that terrorism has a political aim. What is that aim? And I'm not talking about the intention of "loan wolves" like Paddock, but the intentions of those who seek to stimulate the climate in which these mass murders become commonplace.
What distresses me is that discussion in mainstream outlets treats the gun issue in a fundamentally shallow way, as if it's just a lifestyle choice with negative side-effects for public health. This is very, very dangerous. It's another extreme failure of the Democratic Party establishment to have not taken it seriously, as the existential threat that it is. Remember when the DHS issued a report in 2009 on the danger of right-wing extremism, and the right wing of the GOP and their media allies bullied Janet Napolitano into retracting it? There are, what? 100,000 heavily armed right-wing lunatics in the US? That seems like a conservative estimate to me.
It seems unlikely that the implied threat of that, which the right's been using politically for decades because it empowers their base and intimidates their opponents, couldn't eventually become explicit, under the right conditions. Especially with our contemporary "post-truth" political/media environment. This isn't just a public health problem. It's a problem arising from a political movement that intentionally makes use of the power it represents, and does not want to let that power go.
posted by mondo dentro at 9:34 PM on May 28, 2018 [19 favorites]
The important thing here is that terrorism has a political aim. What is that aim? And I'm not talking about the intention of "loan wolves" like Paddock, but the intentions of those who seek to stimulate the climate in which these mass murders become commonplace.
What distresses me is that discussion in mainstream outlets treats the gun issue in a fundamentally shallow way, as if it's just a lifestyle choice with negative side-effects for public health. This is very, very dangerous. It's another extreme failure of the Democratic Party establishment to have not taken it seriously, as the existential threat that it is. Remember when the DHS issued a report in 2009 on the danger of right-wing extremism, and the right wing of the GOP and their media allies bullied Janet Napolitano into retracting it? There are, what? 100,000 heavily armed right-wing lunatics in the US? That seems like a conservative estimate to me.
It seems unlikely that the implied threat of that, which the right's been using politically for decades because it empowers their base and intimidates their opponents, couldn't eventually become explicit, under the right conditions. Especially with our contemporary "post-truth" political/media environment. This isn't just a public health problem. It's a problem arising from a political movement that intentionally makes use of the power it represents, and does not want to let that power go.
posted by mondo dentro at 9:34 PM on May 28, 2018 [19 favorites]
I am so sorry, [insert clever name here].
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:39 PM on May 28, 2018
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:39 PM on May 28, 2018
in what universe exactly has this fallen out of public consciousness? Like I was in Vegas a couple of weeks ago for a U2 concert and the entire time I was there I was aware of this shooting and was happy that my event was an indoor event and was aware of the Mandalay Bay hotel while I was wandering around the strip and holy fuck the baseline assumption of this article is just bullshit.
posted by hippybear at 10:55 PM on May 28, 2018
posted by hippybear at 10:55 PM on May 28, 2018
The author suggests that Las Vegas has been forgotten while Sandy Hook and Parkland have not because Vegas is A: more “working class” and B: more “ethnically diverse.”
Bullshit. Vegas didn’t result in a wave of protests and attempts at legislation because that’s exactly what the casino owners and the LVCVA wanted to happen. Nothing to see here, business as usual (including the business of gun shows and selling tickets to shoot machine guns). We couldn’t have prevented this but it won’t happen again.
Vegas, more than any place in the world with the possible exception of the UAE, is where the money and power of capitalism reign unchecked and the concerned critical voice of the individual is squashed without surprise or even notice. At Parkland, a group of outraged kids managed to get the media’s attention and use the few remaining functioning government channels to make their case. And still very little changed.
But to gripe that no one cared what happened in Vegas and then to praise the city:
I’ve been to Vegas a dozen times, usually accidentally on my way to somewhere else. I’m not immune to it’s impressive glitzy sheen. But after about 24 hours, I’m invariably outraged, tossed out of casinos or stiffing racist taxi drivers. But mostly I’m just sad. Sad for the things people do to make money, sad for the way they allow themselves to be treated by the corporate machine so they don’t end up homeless, sad for the tourists that buy into the illusion of reckless abandon and glamour and escape with no real questioning of their otherwise dreary lives, and sad for the obvious signs of society’s rot if you spend 5 seconds looking beyond the gilded surface.
I’m sad about the 58 innocent people killed, none of whom deserved to die for coming to Vegas and being seduced by the lie. But I’m more sad that the machine just kept on grinding away with little concern and zero change, because after all, the 24 hour shops selling the illusion need to stay open.
I’m sure there are many fine people in Las Vegas who love their town for good reasons. But they should not be surprised to discover their opinions of freedom, security, and human rights mean fuck-all next to the quarterly profits of the companies that control the money.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 12:16 AM on May 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
Bullshit. Vegas didn’t result in a wave of protests and attempts at legislation because that’s exactly what the casino owners and the LVCVA wanted to happen. Nothing to see here, business as usual (including the business of gun shows and selling tickets to shoot machine guns). We couldn’t have prevented this but it won’t happen again.
Vegas, more than any place in the world with the possible exception of the UAE, is where the money and power of capitalism reign unchecked and the concerned critical voice of the individual is squashed without surprise or even notice. At Parkland, a group of outraged kids managed to get the media’s attention and use the few remaining functioning government channels to make their case. And still very little changed.
But to gripe that no one cared what happened in Vegas and then to praise the city:
I genuinely love its lack of pretension, its anything-goes ethos, its within-limits hedonism. I love its big, loud, unabashedly ersatz glamour, what the cultural critic (and former resident) Dave Hickey has called “the real fakery of Las Vegas.”Capitalism bears a huge responsibility for these mass shootings. “If people are willing to pay their hard earned money for weapons of mass killing, then I am entitled to sell them” and “If I have the money to buy as many weapons as I want, then I am entitled to own as many weapons as I want.” If some individual, or group of individuals, or majority of individuals, wants to use an elected democracy to infringe upon the marketplace of guns, then that’s Oppression. It’s Commie Pinko shit. It’s anti-Freedom.
I’ve been to Vegas a dozen times, usually accidentally on my way to somewhere else. I’m not immune to it’s impressive glitzy sheen. But after about 24 hours, I’m invariably outraged, tossed out of casinos or stiffing racist taxi drivers. But mostly I’m just sad. Sad for the things people do to make money, sad for the way they allow themselves to be treated by the corporate machine so they don’t end up homeless, sad for the tourists that buy into the illusion of reckless abandon and glamour and escape with no real questioning of their otherwise dreary lives, and sad for the obvious signs of society’s rot if you spend 5 seconds looking beyond the gilded surface.
I’m sad about the 58 innocent people killed, none of whom deserved to die for coming to Vegas and being seduced by the lie. But I’m more sad that the machine just kept on grinding away with little concern and zero change, because after all, the 24 hour shops selling the illusion need to stay open.
I’m sure there are many fine people in Las Vegas who love their town for good reasons. But they should not be surprised to discover their opinions of freedom, security, and human rights mean fuck-all next to the quarterly profits of the companies that control the money.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 12:16 AM on May 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
>> Six months and many shootings later it has faded in public consciousness
> Sit and think a bit and let that soak in.
May 21st was the 20th anniversary of the school shooting by my French teacher's son.
Twenty. Years.
Thurston 20 years later: 'The sad thing is, once affected, always affected'
Little Has Changed In 20 Years Since Thurston High Shooting
posted by fraula at 3:13 AM on May 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
> Sit and think a bit and let that soak in.
May 21st was the 20th anniversary of the school shooting by my French teacher's son.
Twenty. Years.
Thurston 20 years later: 'The sad thing is, once affected, always affected'
Little Has Changed In 20 Years Since Thurston High Shooting
posted by fraula at 3:13 AM on May 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
As soon as I saw the word Thurston I remembered it. It's not at the top of my consciousness but it didn't take a lot for me to remember that word and the horror it contains. Thank you for bringing it back up because I don't want that to be forgotten.
posted by hippybear at 3:27 AM on May 29, 2018
posted by hippybear at 3:27 AM on May 29, 2018
Yeah this is terrorism.
I think it's been observed before, but these people are basically Holnists from The Postman. I can't help but think Brin in the 80s had already run into the seeds of the toxic masculinity death cult, particularly considering the channels he traveled in.
The bare-minimum, rational, difficult-to-debate gun control argument is to treat them like cars. You want to own guns? They need to be licensed, you need at least a liability insurance policy, and you have to re-register once a year. Any failure on any of those counts and your guns get taken away.
Now that's far too little, but I agree that specifics like banning bump stocks not only don't help, but are actually hurting the cause of getting guns out of the hands of people who want to shoot each other.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:30 AM on May 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think it's been observed before, but these people are basically Holnists from The Postman. I can't help but think Brin in the 80s had already run into the seeds of the toxic masculinity death cult, particularly considering the channels he traveled in.
The bare-minimum, rational, difficult-to-debate gun control argument is to treat them like cars. You want to own guns? They need to be licensed, you need at least a liability insurance policy, and you have to re-register once a year. Any failure on any of those counts and your guns get taken away.
Now that's far too little, but I agree that specifics like banning bump stocks not only don't help, but are actually hurting the cause of getting guns out of the hands of people who want to shoot each other.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:30 AM on May 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I can't help but think Brin in the 80s had already run into the seeds of the toxic masculinity death cult, particularly considering the channels he traveled in.
The seeds of present day sovereign-citizenry and its allied spin-offs are traditionally traced back to the Posse Comitatus movement of the '60s and 70's. Anyone who moved in gun-collecting, off-the-grid, or quasi-libertarian circles almost certainly would've been aware of them by reputation, at least.
(Once when I was a teen I asked my dad—an avid shooter and gun collector—though his tastes tended toward the 18th and 19th centuries and he quit the NRA in the '80s—why he fell out with an acquaintance. "Because he's a Posse Comitatus nut," he said.)
The bare-minimum, rational, difficult-to-debate gun control argument is to treat them like cars. You want to own guns? They need to be licensed, you need at least a liability insurance policy, and you have to re-register once a year.
I agree. But recently, in the Upside-Down of the nutters, they've begun to advocate that cars must be treated like guns, that the right to drive without regulation is inviolable.
(Google "not driving traveling" for lots of videos of sovcits getting dragged from their cars.)
posted by octobersurprise at 6:31 AM on May 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
The seeds of present day sovereign-citizenry and its allied spin-offs are traditionally traced back to the Posse Comitatus movement of the '60s and 70's. Anyone who moved in gun-collecting, off-the-grid, or quasi-libertarian circles almost certainly would've been aware of them by reputation, at least.
(Once when I was a teen I asked my dad—an avid shooter and gun collector—though his tastes tended toward the 18th and 19th centuries and he quit the NRA in the '80s—why he fell out with an acquaintance. "Because he's a Posse Comitatus nut," he said.)
The bare-minimum, rational, difficult-to-debate gun control argument is to treat them like cars. You want to own guns? They need to be licensed, you need at least a liability insurance policy, and you have to re-register once a year.
I agree. But recently, in the Upside-Down of the nutters, they've begun to advocate that cars must be treated like guns, that the right to drive without regulation is inviolable.
(Google "not driving traveling" for lots of videos of sovcits getting dragged from their cars.)
posted by octobersurprise at 6:31 AM on May 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
When discussing Parkland shooting, a 2A advocate linked to the truck attack in Nice with a comment that was literally "WHAT ABOUT TRUCK CONTROL?" The fact that they clearly thought that this was a sick burn on the irrationality of gun control served as a stark reminder that even amongst the "rational" and "moderate" gun rights crowd, the devotion to Moloch is still pretty deep.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:02 AM on May 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by zombieflanders at 7:02 AM on May 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Mondo Dentro: There are, what? 100,000 heavily armed right-wing lunatics in the US? That seems like a conservative estimate to me.
Not to mention the organized groups like Oathkeepers, 3%ers, etc. Any truely sweeping gun control legislation that manages to get past the NRA and their congress people will have to contend with the militias who have been training and waiting for this moment to fight Civil War II.
posted by dr_dank at 7:30 AM on May 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Not to mention the organized groups like Oathkeepers, 3%ers, etc. Any truely sweeping gun control legislation that manages to get past the NRA and their congress people will have to contend with the militias who have been training and waiting for this moment to fight Civil War II.
posted by dr_dank at 7:30 AM on May 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Not to mention the organized groups like Oathkeepers, 3%ers, etc. Any truely sweeping gun control legislation that manages to get past the NRA and their congress people will have to contend with the militias who have been training and waiting for this moment to fight Civil War II.
Not to mention their massive overlap with the police, border patrol and military. If the people were to declare tomorrow that all guns are banned, and that anyone with a gun can either turn it over or have it taken, who exactly is going to be doing the taking? Those groups aren't going to be super motivated to put their lives on the line to mass arrest people they mostly agree with and in some cases are openly members of.
posted by neonrev at 7:43 AM on May 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Not to mention their massive overlap with the police, border patrol and military. If the people were to declare tomorrow that all guns are banned, and that anyone with a gun can either turn it over or have it taken, who exactly is going to be doing the taking? Those groups aren't going to be super motivated to put their lives on the line to mass arrest people they mostly agree with and in some cases are openly members of.
posted by neonrev at 7:43 AM on May 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
If the people were to declare tomorrow that all guns are banned, and that anyone with a gun can either turn it over or have it taken, who exactly is going to be doing the taking?
I think that premise buys right into the NRA's framing. I understand the frustration of it all resulting in wanting the issue to just go away, but that frames the argument as "Ban or Not", which again, is their fundraising theme.
Along the way in this framing, what gets lost is the need to manage the risk through proper -- and Constitutional since Heller -- licensing of all legal gun owners, to ensure they know and follow basic safety and secure storage regulations, and registration of each and every firearm by their licensed owner.
Then we can talk about banning transfers from licensed to unlicensed people, by making the person transferring the firearm to an unlicensed person an accessory to their crimes. Then the people doing the taking will be police officers impounding unregistered firearms from unlicensed people, and they can explain it to the Judge.
posted by mikelieman at 7:53 AM on May 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think that premise buys right into the NRA's framing. I understand the frustration of it all resulting in wanting the issue to just go away, but that frames the argument as "Ban or Not", which again, is their fundraising theme.
Along the way in this framing, what gets lost is the need to manage the risk through proper -- and Constitutional since Heller -- licensing of all legal gun owners, to ensure they know and follow basic safety and secure storage regulations, and registration of each and every firearm by their licensed owner.
Then we can talk about banning transfers from licensed to unlicensed people, by making the person transferring the firearm to an unlicensed person an accessory to their crimes. Then the people doing the taking will be police officers impounding unregistered firearms from unlicensed people, and they can explain it to the Judge.
posted by mikelieman at 7:53 AM on May 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Reader, it worked: we're here half a year later and people still have the impression that the NRA actually supported a bump stock ban as a compromise measure (they didn't), and we're talking about whether it's a meaningful compromise (it wasn't).
And importantly, "Bump Stocks" make it easier to "Bump Fire" a "semi-automatic" rifle which is simply done by jamming your thumb in your belt, and pushing the rifle back against your hand. This is a design defect, and in a rational world, the Consumers Product Safety Council would have banned the sale of these rifles until it could not be defeated. And redesigning a semi-automatic to not be vulnerable to this exploit ( which effectively renders it a NFA regulated Machine Gun ) , likely would not be trivial.
Honestly, I think the tech peaked with the lever action rifle and revolvers. Everything else has been just making them more lethal in non sporting/hunting contexts.
posted by mikelieman at 8:07 AM on May 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
And importantly, "Bump Stocks" make it easier to "Bump Fire" a "semi-automatic" rifle which is simply done by jamming your thumb in your belt, and pushing the rifle back against your hand. This is a design defect, and in a rational world, the Consumers Product Safety Council would have banned the sale of these rifles until it could not be defeated. And redesigning a semi-automatic to not be vulnerable to this exploit ( which effectively renders it a NFA regulated Machine Gun ) , likely would not be trivial.
Honestly, I think the tech peaked with the lever action rifle and revolvers. Everything else has been just making them more lethal in non sporting/hunting contexts.
posted by mikelieman at 8:07 AM on May 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
The thing that gets me about "WAT ABT TRUCK CONTROL" is that you can god damn bet that in the wake of these truck attacks, cities are installing heavy-duty bollards to separate pedestrians from traffic, especially in areas where pedestrians tend to congregate. There are also serious proposals now to require background checks for people renting trucks and vans (some rental companies already screen people against watch lists). I think London is moving towards measures to control the sale of caustic materials that could be used in acid attacks. Etc. And yet for guns specifically people lose their fucking minds.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:40 AM on May 29, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 10:40 AM on May 29, 2018 [24 favorites]
i'm not clear on how an atrocity like this advances any kind of political or social cause
Many years ago I found an article titled Al Qaeda's Fantasy Ideology that I think does a good job of explaining a lot of things.
The article is well worth reading, but the key idea is that oftentimes people wish to act less out of a desire to do something that will actually advance their ideology and more out of a desire to strike out at (what they see as) evil and take a bold stand.
I suspect that's how Paddock justified his decision. He wasn't striking directly at his perceived enemies, but he was a bold warrior for truth and freedom striking out at the decadent and fallen American society. There likely wasn't even an Underpants Gnomes level plan for how shooting all those people would bring about his ideology of choice, rather he likely simply felt that he had to do **SOMETHING** big, brave, bold, and dramatic to show himself and everyone else that he really was standing up to evil and smiting it.
We may never know for sure about Paddock, but we do know that often people who turn to mass violence don't think it will advance their goals but rather are engaged in what they see as something to purify their own souls and simply do the right thing and damn the consequences.
posted by sotonohito at 12:02 PM on May 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Many years ago I found an article titled Al Qaeda's Fantasy Ideology that I think does a good job of explaining a lot of things.
The article is well worth reading, but the key idea is that oftentimes people wish to act less out of a desire to do something that will actually advance their ideology and more out of a desire to strike out at (what they see as) evil and take a bold stand.
I suspect that's how Paddock justified his decision. He wasn't striking directly at his perceived enemies, but he was a bold warrior for truth and freedom striking out at the decadent and fallen American society. There likely wasn't even an Underpants Gnomes level plan for how shooting all those people would bring about his ideology of choice, rather he likely simply felt that he had to do **SOMETHING** big, brave, bold, and dramatic to show himself and everyone else that he really was standing up to evil and smiting it.
We may never know for sure about Paddock, but we do know that often people who turn to mass violence don't think it will advance their goals but rather are engaged in what they see as something to purify their own souls and simply do the right thing and damn the consequences.
posted by sotonohito at 12:02 PM on May 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
It's gonna get worse.
The hell of it is these jackasses are the ones creating the environment they fear and so dearly believe they are defending against.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:03 PM on May 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
The hell of it is these jackasses are the ones creating the environment they fear and so dearly believe they are defending against.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:03 PM on May 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
Thank you for the condolences. I didn’t mean for it to be a derail- it’s been a year and a half and though I’m still processing, the worst is behind me.
The Vegas shooting in particular brings about a bunch of connected emotions about my husband’s death. At the time of the shooting, I thought I could have very well seen my husband in those headlines had he not taken his own life. He wrote some things prior to his death that suggested he not only struggled with violent thoughts, but was becoming, for lack of a better way of saying it, increasingly radicalized. I felt it, but I didn’t know what I was feeling because he never spoke as candidly about it as he did in his writing.
But when the news of the Vegas shooting was whirling, there was so much talk about what a normal guy the shooter was and how no one saw it coming. How he was just a normal gun collector, etc... and didn’t have any signs to make anyone believe he was anything other than a lawful gun owner. I suspect the same would have been said of my husband had he gone that direction as opposed to taking his own life. Maybe that sounds like a stretch, but there was an anger; a rage, and it almost seems like a coin flip that caused him to direct it inwards.
I really want to write more on it in some format, in hopes of adding to the gun debate. I do think there are some interesting insights. But unsurprisingly, it’s raw and that makes it hard. Plus I don’t know if I’m a capable enough writer to put it to “paper” and do it justice. But I hope so.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:08 PM on May 29, 2018 [16 favorites]
The Vegas shooting in particular brings about a bunch of connected emotions about my husband’s death. At the time of the shooting, I thought I could have very well seen my husband in those headlines had he not taken his own life. He wrote some things prior to his death that suggested he not only struggled with violent thoughts, but was becoming, for lack of a better way of saying it, increasingly radicalized. I felt it, but I didn’t know what I was feeling because he never spoke as candidly about it as he did in his writing.
But when the news of the Vegas shooting was whirling, there was so much talk about what a normal guy the shooter was and how no one saw it coming. How he was just a normal gun collector, etc... and didn’t have any signs to make anyone believe he was anything other than a lawful gun owner. I suspect the same would have been said of my husband had he gone that direction as opposed to taking his own life. Maybe that sounds like a stretch, but there was an anger; a rage, and it almost seems like a coin flip that caused him to direct it inwards.
I really want to write more on it in some format, in hopes of adding to the gun debate. I do think there are some interesting insights. But unsurprisingly, it’s raw and that makes it hard. Plus I don’t know if I’m a capable enough writer to put it to “paper” and do it justice. But I hope so.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:08 PM on May 29, 2018 [16 favorites]
It's definitely not a derail. I admire your ability to talk about such a raw experience openly and connect it to the Vegas shooting. I don't think you should worry about whether you can do your own story justice in writing; you very clearly can. If you decide to write something longer-form, I think you'll be adding something very valuable to the public discussion.
I'm so sorry for your loss.
posted by biogeo at 10:27 PM on May 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm so sorry for your loss.
posted by biogeo at 10:27 PM on May 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton just asked Valve, the game company, to stop the release of a game called Active Shooter in which the player takes the role of a school shooter [1].
I find this noteworthy because of what didn't happen.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask gun makers to stop selling AR-15's and other assault rifles.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask gun makers to stop selling bump stocks or guns that can easily be modified to be functionally fully automatic.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask gun retailers to be more cautious about background checks, or to go beyond the legal requirements and deny sales to people convicted of domestic violence.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask family members to stop giving guns to people who aren't legally permitted to have them.
Basically, Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask anyone even remotely associated with anything having to do with school shootings to take any steps that might help reduce school shootings. But he did feel the need to grandstand about a gross game as if somehow that was related even slightly to the problem.
We've so normalized the Republican/NRA deflection that it doesn't even really strike anyone as surprising that Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton is wasting his time pestering a video game distributor instead of doing something that might help.
[1] Because **OF COURSE** there's a game where you play a school shooter. There is nothing so awful someone won't make a video game about it. In the past making a video game took some skill and time, but these days just about anyone can slap together some stock assets and use a free 3D engine to "make" a game even if they know next to nothing about programming. Expect to see even more vile and disgusting niche games as the tools to make games keep getting better and easier.
posted by sotonohito at 6:38 AM on May 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
I find this noteworthy because of what didn't happen.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask gun makers to stop selling AR-15's and other assault rifles.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask gun makers to stop selling bump stocks or guns that can easily be modified to be functionally fully automatic.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask gun retailers to be more cautious about background checks, or to go beyond the legal requirements and deny sales to people convicted of domestic violence.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask family members to stop giving guns to people who aren't legally permitted to have them.
Basically, Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton didn't ask anyone even remotely associated with anything having to do with school shootings to take any steps that might help reduce school shootings. But he did feel the need to grandstand about a gross game as if somehow that was related even slightly to the problem.
We've so normalized the Republican/NRA deflection that it doesn't even really strike anyone as surprising that Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton is wasting his time pestering a video game distributor instead of doing something that might help.
[1] Because **OF COURSE** there's a game where you play a school shooter. There is nothing so awful someone won't make a video game about it. In the past making a video game took some skill and time, but these days just about anyone can slap together some stock assets and use a free 3D engine to "make" a game even if they know next to nothing about programming. Expect to see even more vile and disgusting niche games as the tools to make games keep getting better and easier.
posted by sotonohito at 6:38 AM on May 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
In the past making a video game took some skill and time, but these days just about anyone can slap together some stock assets and use a free 3D engine to "make" a game even if they know next to nothing about programming.
Nope.
posted by phearlez at 7:57 AM on May 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Nope.
posted by phearlez at 7:57 AM on May 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I found this article devastating for the simple fact that this terrible murderous event was only six or so months ago, but if you had told me before I read the article that it was two years ago, I would've nodded. I was so very sad at how far removed from the event I felt and how many subsequent violent mass murders by violent men had wiped this one from my memory of "current" events and mad at myself for being so numb to the terrible price we're paying in this terrible nation for our cult worship of violent men and their guns.
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:15 AM on May 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:15 AM on May 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm so sorry [insert clever name here]. Thank you for sharing your story with us.
posted by daybeforetheday at 2:09 PM on May 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by daybeforetheday at 2:09 PM on May 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
@radiofreegeorgy: This should not be hanging in my soon-to-be-kindergartener’s classroom.For those that can't see the link, it's one of those big pieces of lined paper taped to a classroom chalkboard, and it reads as follows:
Lockdown, LockdownThis is America.
Lock the door
Shut the lights off
Say no more
Go behind the desk and hide
Wait until it's safe inside.
Lockdown, Lockdown it's all done
Now it's time to have some fun!
posted by zombieflanders at 4:26 AM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh, and that little ditty is apparently supposed to be sung, out loud, to the tune of the A-B-Cs.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:27 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by zombieflanders at 4:27 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Florida gunman who shot officer kills 4 child hostages, then himself
The beat goes on.
posted by Artw at 10:53 AM on June 12, 2018
The beat goes on.
posted by Artw at 10:53 AM on June 12, 2018
No picture of the shooter in that story, he must be white.
posted by rhizome at 11:09 AM on June 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 11:09 AM on June 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
Dude was so melanin-challenged it burned the eyes. And this fine specimen of the gun culture we're supposed to respect was somehow able to get a gun despite this (emphasis mine):
posted by zombieflanders at 11:28 AM on June 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
According to Volusia County court records obtained by Heavy, the arson incident occurred in December 2008. Lindsey went to his girlfriend’s home and a verbal argument began. Police said Lindsey grabbed a kitchen knife and began stabbing the television in the woman’s living room. He then started to punch the television screen with his fist, damaging it more. Lindsey then walked into a bedroom and ripped a TV off of a wall mount and jumped on it, police said in the arrest report.But it's not like there were any other warning signs, right?
[...]
He pleaded no contest to charges of domestic battery, first-degree arson and fleeing or attempting to elude in 2010 and was sentenced to 4 months in jail. In May 2018, he was arrested and charged with violating his probation after an arrest in Seminole County. The probation violation case was still pending. He was taken into custody on May 8 and released on May 23.
It was his fourth arrest for violating his probation since his conviction. Lindsey was given a 30-year supervision term after pleading no contest. Court records show he was at one point forced by the court to live with his mother in Deltona, but was then allowed to move to Orange County to be near his young son.
[...]
In 2012, he was charged with two counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon in Orange County. According to court records, Lindsey was accused in that incident of holding a knife to his girlfriend’s face and threatening to kill her[...]In May 2012, prosecutors dropped the charges against him. It is not clear why they did not attempt to prosecute him. The girlfriend in the 2012 case was not the same woman as in the 2008 arson and domestic battery case.[...]In Seminole County, Lindsey was arrested twice in 2007, on shoplifting and retail theft charges. In May 2018, he was charged with grand theft of items between $300 to $5,000 dollars. He was accused of stealing several items from a Walmart in Sanford. That case was pending.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:28 AM on June 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
Amazing someone composed entirely of red flags could be so pale.
posted by Artw at 11:30 AM on June 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:30 AM on June 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
@missunitedface
the Pulse shooting was only 2 yrs ago & our country has already made so many incredible changes to protect & improve the lives of anyone who wants to do it again
posted by Artw at 1:04 PM on June 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
the Pulse shooting was only 2 yrs ago & our country has already made so many incredible changes to protect & improve the lives of anyone who wants to do it again
posted by Artw at 1:04 PM on June 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
Nothing has stopped the wave of school shootings. Now districts are buying war-zone trauma kits
posted by zombieflanders at 2:25 PM on June 12, 2018
posted by zombieflanders at 2:25 PM on June 12, 2018
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posted by GuyZero at 11:58 AM on May 28, 2018 [5 favorites]