"We have met the enemy ... "

May 31, 2018 10:33 PM

Remix artist Pogo (previously: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) posts a video to his channel calling gays "disgusting" and "an abomination": "When there was the Orlando shooting and the guy was shouting 'allu akhbar', I was like (fist-pump)." After the video was discovered, he claimed he "made this during the Trump election to impersonate the far right and create hysteria". He then released a separate video addressing the controversy, saying he was just "grinding people's gears" -- and that his prior views as summarized in this Digg article were done to "draw [...] out into the open" "the sort of people who [...] require an environment akin to a creche."
posted by WCityMike (43 comments total)

in the Digg update: 'He adds, "I like some of the things people like Milo Yiannopoulos say, but I don't like the way he says them," continuing on to praise people like Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro and Joe Rogan.'

that makes sense and also doesn't help
posted by taskmaster at 10:48 PM on May 31, 2018 [6 favorites]

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
posted by adept256 at 11:03 PM on May 31, 2018 [48 favorites]

So he's a bigot AND a coward AND a liar.
Just reading Andy Baio's piece had me chanting "take the high road, take the high road, take the high road..." over and over in my head.

(Not to sidetrack here, but quick shout out for Andy's well written post. I'm always impressed by his writing.)
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:04 PM on May 31, 2018 [1 favorite]

A guy whose YouTube username is "Fagottron" turns out to be a homophobe? This is my surprised face.
posted by teraflop at 11:05 PM on May 31, 2018 [8 favorites]

and then, when called on it, claiming he was only trolling

Slightly off topic, but I've been thinking about this strategy recently, because saying "it was just a joke" is a very popular rhetorical move these days. It reminds me a lot of this guy, Siu Yun Ping, a Hong Kong man who won ungodly sums of money in gambling in Macau. So in Macau, there's an upper bound on bets because of Chinese law, and to skirt those laws, backroom handshake deals determine, that, for example, every dollar won or lost in this game is really a thousand dollars. Ping won so much money by manipulating those handshake deals, so that one dollar was a thousand when he won, but when he lost, it wasn't. It's a clever way to cheat, and you can see why it's so powerful.

So when people pull this after the fact "just kidding" shit, it makes me mad, because... it's basically cheating, to me. You can win any argument if you get to go back and cancel any of your previous statements.

It's different than, but kind of similar to, the Sam Harris / Jordan Peterson strategy of bullshit, which involves making an incoherent mess of an argument and then complain that people aren't smart enough to understand you and never debate the substance of your ideas, when there isn't really any substance there. It makes sense to me that Pogo likes guys that fit in that category.
posted by Rinku at 11:16 PM on May 31, 2018 [18 favorites]

Jesus, in 30 years historians will be researching this era as the birth of the GGBWs (Great Global Brain Worms, or GamerGate Brain Worms).
posted by benzenedream at 11:21 PM on May 31, 2018 [2 favorites]

@teraflop, until now I totally thought "Fagottron" meant that he was out and proud and fuck-you. The world is confusing to me. It's a shame, I loved his (remix) work.
posted by michaelhoney at 12:43 AM on June 1, 2018 [7 favorites]

A guy whose YouTube username is "Fagottron" turns out to be a homophobe? This is my surprised face.

Well, in combination with a bit of stereotyping in re: the subject matter I think quite a few people originally assumed he was gay. Guess that's not what he was trying to convey, after all.
posted by atoxyl at 12:45 AM on June 1, 2018 [2 favorites]

"I like some of the things people like Milo Yiannopoulos say, but I don't like the way he says them,"

What unmitigated bullshit. The evidence of his own rantings is all you need to see he absolutely *loves* the way Milo says things and wishes he could do the same.
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 1:09 AM on June 1, 2018 [3 favorites]

He likes much of what Milo has to say, but doesn’t approve of how he says some of it. And the people he expresses unconditional admiration for? Jordan Peterson, Stefan Molyneux, Ben Shapiro.

Disney mash-up bro is a straight up Nazi.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:31 AM on June 1, 2018 [15 favorites]

And a homophobia-free Disney cartoon remix to cleanse your palate. (No association.)

Holy crap, the video editing on that is insanely accomplished.
posted by jaduncan at 1:44 AM on June 1, 2018 [3 favorites]

In 2018 I give zero fucks whether you were sincere or "just" trolling. Trolling isn't funny anymore and it hasn't been for a very long time, if ever. If you think it's funny to go on a hate-filled public rant and then try to pull the rug out from under the people you've pissed off with a "just kidding," then fuck you, you're an asshole. Plus, when was the last time someone did that and then turned out not to have a head full of fucked-up hateful garbage? When was the last time it was really all just a joke? Nice people don't joke like that.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:00 AM on June 1, 2018 [64 favorites]

saying "it was just a joke" is a very popular rhetorical move these days

Not just these days, basically since forever. When I was being sexually assaulted and harassed on the daily in high school (in the 80s, y'all), I wasn't allowed to be upset because it was all just a big joke. When the boys discovered bra-strap-snapping in middle school, it was "just a joke". Bullies have been using "just a joke" (or the only slightly more sophisticated but equally bogus "just a social experiment") as a get-out-of-responsibility-free card for a long, long time.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:26 AM on June 1, 2018 [32 favorites]

Pretty much this:
I’m diametrically opposed to his red pill MRA nonsense, and it’s disappointing to hear from someone whose work I love. He’s free to talk about his views, and fans who disagree are free to no longer support his work once they’re aware of them.
Wasn't aware of him before this FPP, won't be giving him any eyeballs or clicks after this FPP.
Life goes on, until enough people who DO know about him and give him eyeballs and clicks, and hate his stance, outnumber those that love his stance, and he quits making money from it, and moves on to something else hateful.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 3:29 AM on June 1, 2018

Even if people think they're "just trolling," it's about time they realize that a major effect of their fun is the normalizing of the attitudes they are supposedly parodying. The people who lean toward those beliefs aren't affected by later disclosures that they were "fooled." They are reinforced in those beliefs, and the trolls' disclaimers have no effect.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:02 AM on June 1, 2018 [6 favorites]

Even if people think they're "just trolling,"

They don't. Or well, this doesn't mean what it appears to on the surface. It doesn't mean 'it was just a joke' as in 'I don't actually mean it'. It's just a marker to say that the speech act in question is supposed to be inconsequential, primarily in the sense of consequence-free (for the speaker).
posted by Dysk at 4:15 AM on June 1, 2018 [18 favorites]

Well, in combination with a bit of stereotyping in re: the subject matter I think quite a few people originally assumed he was gay. Guess that's not what he was trying to convey, after all.

Yeah - until five minutes ago I did. Wtf. Was it the Ambien?
posted by lagomorphius at 5:51 AM on June 1, 2018

The whole alt-right shtick seems to be offending people as a goal, so they can then mock their victims and others for being fragile and blame them for "censorship."

"draw [...] out into the open" "the sort of people who [...] require an environment akin to a creche."

Like that.

Their version of "joke" is "thing that amuses me" rather than "thing meant to entertain people generally." It's just sociopathic bullying and they pretend it's some kind of duty. They're on board with racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. because they hurt people's feelings and are therefore "funny" -- and their community mixes eagerly with the more hardcore and violent Nazis and misogynists because they feed each other.
posted by Foosnark at 6:00 AM on June 1, 2018 [13 favorites]

It's different than, but kind of similar to, the Sam Harris / Jordan Peterson strategy of bullshit, which involves making an incoherent mess of an argument and then complain that people aren't smart enough to understand you and never debate the substance of your ideas, when there isn't really any substance there.

It's all in the How To Be A Grifter/Bully/Guru manual—find an enemy; act persecuted; blame your enemies; lather, rinse, repeat. The dynamics are as old as Athenian tyrants; modern social media's just made them that much easier to monetize.

(A couple of years ago an old high school classmate—with whom I was actually very close, once—contacted me out of the blue and wanted to know all about my life and if I would look at his new comic strip. The comics were all sort of sub-Scott Adams, so I wrote back and was like "Yeah, I don't think we really have that much in common" and he replied "Oh I don't actually believe any of the stuff I write, I'm just trying to get clicks!" So I wrote him a super smugly liberal account of my fantastic life and I never heard from him again.)
posted by octobersurprise at 6:17 AM on June 1, 2018 [1 favorite]

I was going to post this yesterday, but in the end I just let out a long sigh and closed all my browser links.

I know, fair use and all, but I hope Disney distances itself from this jerkbag as much as possible.
posted by Catblack at 6:23 AM on June 1, 2018 [3 favorites]

I know, fair use and all, but I hope Disney distances itself from this jerkbag as much as possible.

Does Disney actually have an opinion on him at all? His work does seem like the kind of stuff that their IP lawyers get.... itchy about.

For those looking for something similar to Pogo's stuff, without the bitter trolling aftertaste, PBS Online did some remixes based on their own material . the Mr. Roger's one is excellent.

(So is the Bob Ross one)
posted by Paladin1138 at 6:30 AM on June 1, 2018 [5 favorites]

Their version of "joke" is "thing that amuses me" rather than "thing meant to entertain people generally."

I have an about-to-turn-six-year-old son. About 2 years ago, he discovered the concept of "Just kidding!" as a thing to say after he said something he probably shouldn't have said. (He's a super sweet kid, so we're not talking insults and abuse here, just normal 4-year-old nonsense that sometimes tipped over into calling someone a name.) I (very quietly and maturely) flipped right the fuck out because "just kidding" is legit a trigger for me, it was used so often by the dudes who harassed and abused me for years. So, what we started telling him was, "It's not a joke unless it's funny for everyone." Which I realize is not strictly true, but broadly gets to the idea that social humor is a shared experience, not something you weaponize against someone against their consent without a damn good reason (i.e., punching up). It only took a couple weeks of that message before he stopped with the "just kidding." The intermediary phase was him telling a joke (a real joke, albeit a terrible kid knock-knock joke) and then asking me and his dad, "Was that funny for you?" And if it was a real joke told at an appropriate moment, I'd tell him that yes (even though it almost always wasn't), it was funny for me and thus a good joke. I'm happy to report that so far "just kidding" has not made a reappearance, and I hope it never does.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:31 AM on June 1, 2018 [54 favorites]

Sartre on the related topic of antisemitism been quoted several times before, but it's worth repeating again:

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."

The argument that they are just trolling, or just kidding, or just [whatevering] is a long and well established tactic of the oppressor and their allies to deflect criticism. They will paint their critics as humorless killjoys who just can't understand a joke (see Roseanne Barr).

It's also a classic technique in boundary pushing. They throw out something and see if there is pushback. If there isn't then they know they haven't found the boundary yet and say something more outrageous. If there is then they claim their outrageous statement was a joke and look to see who supports them.

It's a technique for finding allies, identifying opponents, and discovering the exact boundaries of "acceptable discourse" so they can be expanded in the direction the bigot desires.

With the modern addition of the pseudo-anonymous legions of 4chan and their ilk, as well as openly racist groups, it's possible for those who wish to push the boundaries to have a large number of people who are disorganized but bored and possessed of seemingly endless free time to harass the defenders of the boundaries and turn any challenge to the bigots into an extended, time consuming, and exhausting battle.

Their goal is to make it so exhausting, and potentially dangerous IRL or to your job, that the people who push back against trolls decide it is too much work. Individually they can be obnoxious, but in even small groups they can quickly overwhelm and exhaust any single anti-bigot and drive them out of the discussion.

This, I'd argue, ties in with the other discussion on the ACLU and free speech absolutism. Not only is genuine access to free speech linked to class, it's also limited by threats, harassment, threats to job security, and at the extreme end fear of SWATting and physical violence. To put it simply, the bigots have a long and demonstrated history of making life miserable for anyone who stands up to them, and as a result many choose not to. Thus they have free speech and we do not.
posted by sotonohito at 6:37 AM on June 1, 2018 [36 favorites]

"oh, yeah, I have Mein Kampf and the Turner Diaries and on my nightstand and read them every night, but I don't take them seriously, it's just to own the libs"
posted by lmfsilva at 6:38 AM on June 1, 2018 [12 favorites]

....Happy Pride.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 7:10 AM on June 1, 2018 [1 favorite]

The original Pogo Possum, good and kind to all critturs, would be ashamed to have this man using his name.
posted by The otter lady at 7:12 AM on June 1, 2018 [13 favorites]

This shit just makes me so tired.
posted by Nelson at 7:18 AM on June 1, 2018 [9 favorites]

Does Disney actually have an opinion on him at all? His work does seem like the kind of stuff that their IP lawyers get.... itchy about.

They were certainly very friendly towards him, years ago: "Disney found my Alice video and flew me out to the Pixar campus in San Fransisco. I met with Toy Story director John Lasseter and co-founder Ed Catmull, and walked out with a copy of Up on Blu-ray. A few weeks later I had made Upular. Since then I’ve worked for more studios than I can remember."
posted by bigendian at 7:18 AM on June 1, 2018

This shit just makes me so tired.

That's literally the point and why they do it.
posted by Kadin2048 at 7:22 AM on June 1, 2018 [8 favorites]

Ugh FUCK that guy. That's all the nuance I've got left today and it's only 11 am. *sigh*
posted by Space Kitty at 7:52 AM on June 1, 2018

I'll leave it to everyone to make up their own minds, but it seems to me he has a history of saying these things convincingly and then, when called on it, claiming he was only trolling.

Ahhh, the classic Schroedinger's Douchebag.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:45 AM on June 1, 2018 [11 favorites]

We are what we pretend to be.

(And I'm dropping the second half of that quote, since it's clear that people like this are never going to be careful about what they pretend to be.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:50 AM on June 1, 2018 [3 favorites]

My take is when you can't tell the difference between a bigot and someone pretending to be a bigot, then there is no difference. I also say the same thing about people who are assholes for irony.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:21 AM on June 1, 2018 [7 favorites]

I'll leave it to everyone to make up their own minds, but it seems to me he has a history of saying these things convincingly and then, when called on it, claiming he was only trolling.

As Ken "Popehat" White said: If you fuck goats because it upsets people you hate, you're still a goatfucker.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:15 AM on June 1, 2018 [27 favorites]

hm. Pogo used to go by the screen name "Fagotron".

Sometimes people change names because their identity changes - like Mark Redito changing from "Spazzkid." Other times, the identity doesn't change, while the name does.
posted by rebent at 11:59 AM on June 1, 2018

It's so damn depressing to see these people who seemed cool continually prove themselves utterly uncool over the years. :\
posted by symbioid at 2:37 PM on June 1, 2018 [2 favorites]

This is like finding out about JohnK over again, except the little shit made music which was sweet and cheerful. At least he's banned from the US for the foreseeable future.

The link suggests there might've been something amiss at the time of his arrest and jail time in 2011: “According to Bertke, his promoters the Agency Group failed to advise him about appropriate documentation and subsequently removed him from their list.”. Hmm: if your promoters dump you mid trip, doesn't that suggest a hint of being a liability to them?
posted by scruss at 4:31 PM on June 1, 2018

I've always found his music subjectively, offensively, profanely terrible. Still not a good feeling that someone with such a huge platform is spouting these garbage opinions.

Even beyond his repulsive politics, I can't wrap my head around how stupid you have to be to upload stuff like that to the same account that you invoice Pixar with! Usually the way this kind of things plays out is, "We found Pogo's secret alt-right account."

I suppose it's both good and bad that people like this feel so emboldened that they're using their main accounts to share their politics. Bad because, like I said, spreading this bullshit with a huge platform is obviously terrible, but good because it allows other people to see the creator and their beliefs for what they truly are and thereby avoid supporting them in the future. And in an ideal world, the huge blowback would allow Pogo to analyze his own life, take a bit of a break from the internet, and come back as a committed anti-fascist.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 4:32 PM on June 1, 2018 [1 favorite]

Forwarding to friends at Pixar, cut off his money supply and Pogo can go back to his creche.
posted by benzenedream at 4:47 PM on June 1, 2018

Well damn. I've only ever known him through his music, I never knew anything about the man (or man-child in this case). I like his work. But life's too consume shit that bigots make. There's always stuff made by decent human beings. I can't remember who said it here, but I remember "scratch an ironic racist and all you'll scratch off is the irony." So sure, he's being an ironic homophobe. He's still being a homophobic asshole.
posted by Hactar at 9:15 PM on June 1, 2018

I thought this topic of "just rustlin jimmies" was finally resolved when weev turned out to be an actual Nazi, do we have to do this with every Nazi individually? That seems inefficient and, just, like, shockingly credulous.
posted by cj_ at 9:28 PM on June 1, 2018 [3 favorites]

It's always depressing to read people like this complaining that every famous person they liked or admired has turned out to have diametrically opposed politics. So close to an epiphany... but no.
posted by confluency at 6:59 AM on June 2, 2018 [1 favorite]

I was curious what he had said. But: "this video has been removed for violating YouTube's policy on hate speech."

Removing records of someone's speech kinda problematic for holding them accountable for it.

Is there a transcript?
posted by saizai at 2:59 PM on June 2, 2018