The Moral Cost of Cats
June 4, 2018 8:26 AM Subscribe
"Nobody likes the idea of killing cats . . . but sometimes, it is necessary" According to scientists, Trap/Neuter/Return programs don't really work.
many ecologists say flatly that TNR doesn’t work. The problem is that, for TNR to succeed in large populations, at least 75 percent of cats in a colony must be sterilized. That rarely happens. The trouble is that negligent pet owners continue to abandon pet cats, which then join existing colonies; additionally, non-neutered stray cats can wander in. Like efforts at vaccinating schools against chickenpox, just a few stragglers can undermine an entire TNR program. Any short-term reduction in colony size is therefore quickly reversed, a group of researchers including Levy and ecologist Patrick Foley reported after studying nearly 15,000 stray and feral cats.
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In high-priority areas there must be zero tolerance for free-ranging cats. If the animals are trapped, they must be removed from the area and not returned. If homes cannot be found for the animals and no sanctuaries or shelters are available, there is no choice but to euthanize them. If the animals cannot be trapped, other means must be taken to remove them from the landscape—be it the use of select poisons or the retention of professional hunters.
Also:
"Australia aims to kill two million cats by 2020 using “robots, lasers, [and] poison.”
many ecologists say flatly that TNR doesn’t work. The problem is that, for TNR to succeed in large populations, at least 75 percent of cats in a colony must be sterilized. That rarely happens. The trouble is that negligent pet owners continue to abandon pet cats, which then join existing colonies; additionally, non-neutered stray cats can wander in. Like efforts at vaccinating schools against chickenpox, just a few stragglers can undermine an entire TNR program. Any short-term reduction in colony size is therefore quickly reversed, a group of researchers including Levy and ecologist Patrick Foley reported after studying nearly 15,000 stray and feral cats.
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In high-priority areas there must be zero tolerance for free-ranging cats. If the animals are trapped, they must be removed from the area and not returned. If homes cannot be found for the animals and no sanctuaries or shelters are available, there is no choice but to euthanize them. If the animals cannot be trapped, other means must be taken to remove them from the landscape—be it the use of select poisons or the retention of professional hunters.
Also:
"Australia aims to kill two million cats by 2020 using “robots, lasers, [and] poison.”
I don't know why I posted this. I guess I'm curious about what our collective commitment is to empirical science when it conflicts with our deep emotional attachment to some animals. Nobody would blink if scientists said we had to exterminate rats, for example. One glimmer of hope is that TNR appears to work only if it leads to wide scale adoption of feral cats.
posted by mecran01 at 8:44 AM on June 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by mecran01 at 8:44 AM on June 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
Here is a program that transfers cat colonies to cities with rat infestations. That might work. Migratory birds touch down in cities but don't often breed in them, and cats mostly get fledglings. City birds, are quick-breeding opportunistic generalists, like cats, and can sustain a whole lot of predation.
posted by ckridge at 8:44 AM on June 4, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by ckridge at 8:44 AM on June 4, 2018 [14 favorites]
So my ex's grandma has a cat colony in her backyard, fed by her and a cadre of little old ladies. The cats are extremely feral; numerous attempts to trap them for TNR have been unsuccessful; they are remarkably good at defeating traps. They don't get tame even with people feeding them every day.
And yeah, those that can be caught should probably be euthanized. Females have litters very young, there's a fair amount of inbreeding going on, they are flea-ridden and undoubtedly carrying other parasites, they are a big problem for local birds, and a fair number get run over or die of injuries/from infections. They're not living a good life and they are creating other problems and dangers. And yes, we do see other strays; people learn about the colony and being the assholes they are, figure that's a good place to dump their unwanted cat.
We had a discussion a few days ago about feeding bears and the problems that causes; this is less fatal to humans but still a problem. Feeding wild or feral animals in general is a bad idea.
Euthanization is hard, and difficult for the vet techs and others who have to do it, and I have a lot of sympathy for them. People are terrible and animals get put to sleep all the time who have done nothing but get owned by a careless or uncaring human being. But it's still kinder to the animals than starvation, or death by car, or death by infection from fighting wounds.
Humans made this problem and we should fix it.
posted by emjaybee at 8:55 AM on June 4, 2018 [37 favorites]
And yeah, those that can be caught should probably be euthanized. Females have litters very young, there's a fair amount of inbreeding going on, they are flea-ridden and undoubtedly carrying other parasites, they are a big problem for local birds, and a fair number get run over or die of injuries/from infections. They're not living a good life and they are creating other problems and dangers. And yes, we do see other strays; people learn about the colony and being the assholes they are, figure that's a good place to dump their unwanted cat.
We had a discussion a few days ago about feeding bears and the problems that causes; this is less fatal to humans but still a problem. Feeding wild or feral animals in general is a bad idea.
Euthanization is hard, and difficult for the vet techs and others who have to do it, and I have a lot of sympathy for them. People are terrible and animals get put to sleep all the time who have done nothing but get owned by a careless or uncaring human being. But it's still kinder to the animals than starvation, or death by car, or death by infection from fighting wounds.
Humans made this problem and we should fix it.
posted by emjaybee at 8:55 AM on June 4, 2018 [37 favorites]
I don't know why I posted this. I guess I'm curious about what our collective commitment is to empirical science when it conflicts with our deep emotional attachment to some animals.
At some level this reads like deliberate trolling? But there are plenty of other posts that can be read that way as well, and cats are indeed murderous beasts, so.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
At some level this reads like deliberate trolling? But there are plenty of other posts that can be read that way as well, and cats are indeed murderous beasts, so.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
I was just reading about how a half-assed TNR/rescue program run by some Google employees has managed to virtually eradicate burrowing owls in the area.
posted by Copronymus at 8:57 AM on June 4, 2018 [26 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 8:57 AM on June 4, 2018 [26 favorites]
I have two cats, I have always had cats and I love cats dearly, but I agree with Marra. It's terribly sad that people abandon their pets, but feral cats are dangerous and live terrible lives. It's great if some of them can be adopted, but that is clearly not a sufficient option. No one blinks an eye about our limits on stray and wild dogs, because they are a clear threat to humans, I suppose, so I don't see why cats should get special dispensation to destroy the ecosystem.
It's not nice to kill animals, but we should also think about the billions of animals being killed by the cats, often purely for amusement purposes. They deserve a chance as well. I don't think we'd defend any other creature causing so many extinctions. Thirty-three species!
posted by dellsolace at 8:58 AM on June 4, 2018 [26 favorites]
It's not nice to kill animals, but we should also think about the billions of animals being killed by the cats, often purely for amusement purposes. They deserve a chance as well. I don't think we'd defend any other creature causing so many extinctions. Thirty-three species!
posted by dellsolace at 8:58 AM on June 4, 2018 [26 favorites]
I love cats, but I also understand they can turn into pests, when unchecked.
Just like...
I love rats, but I also understand they can turn into pests, when unchecked.
Or almost any animal, really. Just fill in the blank.
It's distressing, sure, but so are a lot of actual solutions to problems.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:03 AM on June 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
Just like...
I love rats, but I also understand they can turn into pests, when unchecked.
Or almost any animal, really. Just fill in the blank.
It's distressing, sure, but so are a lot of actual solutions to problems.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:03 AM on June 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
I guess I'm curious about what our collective commitment is to empirical science when it conflicts with our deep emotional attachment to some animals.
The thing is, this isn't an empirical science issue, it's an emotional attachment issue on some level. Do we have an emotional attachment to birds or to cats? The fact that cats have killed billions of birds is certainly a thing, but there's no empirical science saying we must take action. TNR programs don't work, sure, that's science-based, but what we should do then is not.
posted by corb at 9:03 AM on June 4, 2018 [13 favorites]
The thing is, this isn't an empirical science issue, it's an emotional attachment issue on some level. Do we have an emotional attachment to birds or to cats? The fact that cats have killed billions of birds is certainly a thing, but there's no empirical science saying we must take action. TNR programs don't work, sure, that's science-based, but what we should do then is not.
posted by corb at 9:03 AM on June 4, 2018 [13 favorites]
I guess I'm curious about what our collective commitment is to empirical science when it conflicts with our deep emotional attachment to some animals.
One problem that I notice is that a lot of people have deep emotional attachment that doesn't come with, like, commitment to do anything about it. The pace at which anybody can actually accomplish TNR in most cases is glacial, because it's expensive.
There's a cat cam I like a lot where they do a lot of TNR work and I do have mixed feelings about the amount of funding that goes to rehabbing feral cats with serious medical issues. I have mixed feelings about letting pregnant ferals carry to term when they're captured early in pregnancy. I just have... a lot of mixed feelings, generally. I don't like these things, but I think other people are in a better position to determine the best policies and that they should not be listening to my gut reactions on the subject. I know that I, myself, care about this but I don't care about it to the level where I'm devoting my whole life to it. Yes, this will make me sad, but I can get my head around the idea that the option that makes me sad might be the best one in some circumstances.
posted by Sequence at 9:06 AM on June 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
One problem that I notice is that a lot of people have deep emotional attachment that doesn't come with, like, commitment to do anything about it. The pace at which anybody can actually accomplish TNR in most cases is glacial, because it's expensive.
There's a cat cam I like a lot where they do a lot of TNR work and I do have mixed feelings about the amount of funding that goes to rehabbing feral cats with serious medical issues. I have mixed feelings about letting pregnant ferals carry to term when they're captured early in pregnancy. I just have... a lot of mixed feelings, generally. I don't like these things, but I think other people are in a better position to determine the best policies and that they should not be listening to my gut reactions on the subject. I know that I, myself, care about this but I don't care about it to the level where I'm devoting my whole life to it. Yes, this will make me sad, but I can get my head around the idea that the option that makes me sad might be the best one in some circumstances.
posted by Sequence at 9:06 AM on June 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
Cats are killing native birds, though. It is ongoing and bad.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:07 AM on June 4, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:07 AM on June 4, 2018 [16 favorites]
We can do better than having a truth and reconciliation commission for the burrowing owls!
posted by Going To Maine at 9:08 AM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:08 AM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Anecdata: We have 3 outdoor cats. Spayed, shots, the whole nine. They're not feral or even stray at this point, they're pets. We tried bringing them inside but they're too old to readily acclimate to the indoor lifestyle. We live in the city and I estimate that the rodent to bird ratio of their kills is at least 30 to 1. I can't remember the last time they got a bird, but I do remember my dog getting ahold of a squirrel tail one of them left lying out this morning. I wonder how much this ratio is driven by the availability of prey type or just conditioning or preference. To be sure there is no shortage of rodents in our area, so I'm alright with their murdery tendencies in this context.
Also, when I lived in South Florida we had a cat they almost exclusively hunted lizards and snakes, but very few birds. If the behavior can be conditioned and directed toward nuisance species then maybe that is something worth researching. Or maybe it's the beginning of a bad horror movie.
posted by dudemanlives at 9:11 AM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also, when I lived in South Florida we had a cat they almost exclusively hunted lizards and snakes, but very few birds. If the behavior can be conditioned and directed toward nuisance species then maybe that is something worth researching. Or maybe it's the beginning of a bad horror movie.
posted by dudemanlives at 9:11 AM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't think you can classify feral cats as "just a pest". They rampage through bird populations to the point of extinction. Their natural population would be far lower if they weren't propped up by humans.
But I own two cats who have been amazing to me, saved my life, and don't want to think about having to put a bunch of cats down right now.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:13 AM on June 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
But I own two cats who have been amazing to me, saved my life, and don't want to think about having to put a bunch of cats down right now.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:13 AM on June 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
I volunteered for various burrowing owl projects.
The issue is that the feral cats kill large amounts of vermin for sport since they are fed. The owls can only support one chick per season because of the competition for food. So, they are stuck in zero population growth and are vulnerable to any further ecological disturbance.
I'd rather not kill off the cats but that seems to be the only way to save the owls and other endangered birds at that site.
posted by pdoege at 9:13 AM on June 4, 2018 [23 favorites]
The issue is that the feral cats kill large amounts of vermin for sport since they are fed. The owls can only support one chick per season because of the competition for food. So, they are stuck in zero population growth and are vulnerable to any further ecological disturbance.
I'd rather not kill off the cats but that seems to be the only way to save the owls and other endangered birds at that site.
posted by pdoege at 9:13 AM on June 4, 2018 [23 favorites]
I'd rather not kill off the cats but that seems to be the only way to save the owls and other endangered birds at that site.
What if we enlisted moar owl friends? I bet Great Horned Owls could do a lot to take down a feral cat population.
posted by corb at 9:14 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
What if we enlisted moar owl friends? I bet Great Horned Owls could do a lot to take down a feral cat population.
posted by corb at 9:14 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Euthanization is hard, and difficult for the vet techs and others who have to do it, and I have a lot of sympathy for them. People are terrible and animals get put to sleep all the time who have done nothing but get owned by a careless or uncaring human being. But it's still kinder to the animals than starvation, or death by car, or death by infection from fighting wounds.
I don't think euthanasia in a veterinary surgery is on the cards though? It doesn't sound like the poisoning (or robot lasering!?) is all that pleasant.
Not that I'm against it if it is the best option all round.
posted by edd at 9:15 AM on June 4, 2018
I don't think euthanasia in a veterinary surgery is on the cards though? It doesn't sound like the poisoning (or robot lasering!?) is all that pleasant.
Not that I'm against it if it is the best option all round.
posted by edd at 9:15 AM on June 4, 2018
"Australia aims to kill two million cats by 2020 using “robots, lasers, [and] poison.”
posted by zamboni at 9:18 AM on June 4, 2018 [18 favorites]
Robots, lasers, [and] poisonis a sensationalist way to describe the Felixer grooming trap that's being evaluated in Australia. There are no death ray robots roaming the outback, just solar powered traps that use range finders to sense cats passing in front of them. When a cat is detected, it squirts poison gel on them, which is ingested when the cat grooms itself.
posted by zamboni at 9:18 AM on June 4, 2018 [18 favorites]
So it sounded to me like TNR fails because more pet cats get abandoned, which they would even if feral cats were killed and not neutered. I'm not always against killing feral cats, but it doesn't sound like TNR is a complete failure as much as people are terrible.
posted by jeather at 9:22 AM on June 4, 2018 [33 favorites]
posted by jeather at 9:22 AM on June 4, 2018 [33 favorites]
There are many organizations around the SF Bay area that feed feral cats. One example is the "Cat Network" at Stanford. That's a group that goes around at night and drops bags of cat food at various places around the campus. There is a huge population of these cats scattered around the entire huge campus and environs.
They had an agreement with the university decades ago that they would let the current population fade out. But they just bring in feral cats from other areas and keep the population large.
http://felinefriendsnetwork.org/about-us/
To this day one of the things that is interesting on that campus is that there is basically 0 bird life. Even in the reserve areas around the campus, it is the Silent Spring feeling when you notice something is missing....
posted by CrowGoat at 9:26 AM on June 4, 2018 [14 favorites]
They had an agreement with the university decades ago that they would let the current population fade out. But they just bring in feral cats from other areas and keep the population large.
http://felinefriendsnetwork.org/about-us/
To this day one of the things that is interesting on that campus is that there is basically 0 bird life. Even in the reserve areas around the campus, it is the Silent Spring feeling when you notice something is missing....
posted by CrowGoat at 9:26 AM on June 4, 2018 [14 favorites]
but there's no empirical science saying we must take action.
Ecosystem consequences of bird declines - Çağan H. Şekercioğlu, Gretchen C. Daily, and Paul R. Ehrlich
PNAS December 28, 2004. 101 (52) 18042-18047
Causes and Consequences of Species Extinctions Navjot S. Sodhi, Barry W. Brook, and Corey J. A. Bradshaw
The last link argues effects of mesopredators are crucial - Outdoor cats are easy prey for coyotes, a coyote-introduction program is not likely to be feasible.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:27 AM on June 4, 2018 [24 favorites]
Ecosystem consequences of bird declines - Çağan H. Şekercioğlu, Gretchen C. Daily, and Paul R. Ehrlich
PNAS December 28, 2004. 101 (52) 18042-18047
Overall, 21% of bird species are currently extinction-prone and 6.5% are functionally extinct, contributing negligibly to ecosystem processes. We show that a quarter or more of frugivorous and omnivorous species and one-third or more of herbivorous, piscivorous, and scavenger species are extinction-prone. Furthermore, our projections indicate that by 2100, 6–14% of all bird species will be extinct, and 7–25% (28–56% on oceanic islands) will be functionally extinct. Important ecosystem processes, particularly decomposition, pollination, and seed dispersal, will likely decline as a result.Cascading Effects of Bird Functional Extinction Reduce Pollination and Plant Density ,Sandra H. Anderson, Dave Kelly, Jenny J. Ladley, Sue Molloy, Jon Terry. Science 25 Feb 2011: Vol. 331, Issue 6020, pp. 1068-1071
Causes and Consequences of Species Extinctions Navjot S. Sodhi, Barry W. Brook, and Corey J. A. Bradshaw
The last link argues effects of mesopredators are crucial - Outdoor cats are easy prey for coyotes, a coyote-introduction program is not likely to be feasible.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:27 AM on June 4, 2018 [24 favorites]
No TNR fails not because of an influx of new cats but because there's always one or two cats who slip out of the traps or are too skittish to trap and those without the pressure of all their fellows breed like mad and soon you have the old numbers but they're smart like the ones who weren't neutered. It's why a cull would have to be done very carefully as well because if you miss a handful they'll be back to numbers very quickly.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:27 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:27 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Having volunteered and observed TNR groups, the onus is on people because we treat living things very poorly or if they grow out of the cute kitten stage, we think it’s A OK to dump them. I despise the laxity with which people purchase pets. I would approve of some sort of vetting system, which I guarantee you would go a long away to the feral cat problem.
posted by Kitteh at 9:28 AM on June 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 9:28 AM on June 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
Great.
All this the after we spent the weekend trapping a feral mom and her two kittens that were stuck in our back yard. It is a pretty enclosed space, so mom cat probably figured it was a safe place to have her litter. Mom could get in and out, but the kittens could not. Unfortunately for mom, the kittens were too big for her to carry out with all of the jumps involved.
This weekend we grabbed the kittens to foster and later adopt out, and amazingly trapped the mom. Mom is totally feral so no chance of adoption. We are going to neuter and release, because my wife isn't cool with the idea of taking her to an animal shelter to be euthanized. Also, if she wasn't fixed, she would probably just come back to our yard for the next litter.
The kittens we are taking care of were originally going to be there for a month, but we were feeling responsible, and will foster them until for 2 months, so we can spay them before we adopt them out. We aren't associated with any rescue organizations, but if we can't adopt the kittens out, we will be taking them to a no-kill shelter. Mom is currently in a largish dog crate under the overhang in our back yard. She isn't happy. After her spay, we will give her a couple days to recuperate, then we are just going to open the cage and walk away for a while.
We have cats, but they are exclusively indoor rescues that were neutered. Before adoption, or soon afterward. None of the new additions are going to be staying here.
posted by Badgermann at 9:29 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
All this the after we spent the weekend trapping a feral mom and her two kittens that were stuck in our back yard. It is a pretty enclosed space, so mom cat probably figured it was a safe place to have her litter. Mom could get in and out, but the kittens could not. Unfortunately for mom, the kittens were too big for her to carry out with all of the jumps involved.
This weekend we grabbed the kittens to foster and later adopt out, and amazingly trapped the mom. Mom is totally feral so no chance of adoption. We are going to neuter and release, because my wife isn't cool with the idea of taking her to an animal shelter to be euthanized. Also, if she wasn't fixed, she would probably just come back to our yard for the next litter.
The kittens we are taking care of were originally going to be there for a month, but we were feeling responsible, and will foster them until for 2 months, so we can spay them before we adopt them out. We aren't associated with any rescue organizations, but if we can't adopt the kittens out, we will be taking them to a no-kill shelter. Mom is currently in a largish dog crate under the overhang in our back yard. She isn't happy. After her spay, we will give her a couple days to recuperate, then we are just going to open the cage and walk away for a while.
We have cats, but they are exclusively indoor rescues that were neutered. Before adoption, or soon afterward. None of the new additions are going to be staying here.
posted by Badgermann at 9:29 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
My mother has spent over a decade now working with a feral colony on a university campus that has been "successful" in terms of TNR: the colony has been reduced from over one hundred cats to just over twenty, many of which are senior cats in their late teens. All of the remaining cats have been spayed/neutered and there have been no new litters in many years. Occasionally, someone dumps a cat, but those cats have been successfully trapped for adoption. Of course, the campus now has an increasing rat infestation problem (in fact, the elimination of one feeding station near a classroom building led to immediate rat incursions, so much so that the faculty asked that the station be brought back!), but that's the tradeoff.
posted by thomas j wise at 9:30 AM on June 4, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by thomas j wise at 9:30 AM on June 4, 2018 [19 favorites]
I guess I'm curious about what our collective commitment is to empirical science when it conflicts with our deep emotional attachment to some animals.
I love cats on an individual level. In the abstract? At the population level? Fuck 'em. Scorched earth.
posted by klanawa at 9:41 AM on June 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
I love cats on an individual level. In the abstract? At the population level? Fuck 'em. Scorched earth.
posted by klanawa at 9:41 AM on June 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
There is a single TNR feral cat, in my neighborhood. My neighbor feeds it and it has become increasingly friendly with her. She can't pick it up or constrain it, but she can pet it, and it willingly enters her apartment. It is basically an owned cat, at this point. But the cat was here before the neighbor was. I'm sure it was not born feral; it must have been owned as a kitten and dumped later. It's is easily spooked but not that easily. But it has the notched ear from the local TNR org.
My neighbor hates that it kills so many animals. We are hoping that as it moves into middle age it will accept being kept indoors more willingly.
posted by elizilla at 9:42 AM on June 4, 2018
My neighbor hates that it kills so many animals. We are hoping that as it moves into middle age it will accept being kept indoors more willingly.
posted by elizilla at 9:42 AM on June 4, 2018
"Australia aims to kill two million cats by 2020 using “robots, lasers, [and] poison.”
Additionally, the
Additionally, the
two million cats by 2020figure comes from Australia's Threatened Species Strategy, currently in the second year of a five year plan. Here's the Feral Cats section of the second year progress report, which sounds like they're running behind on some of the goals. You'll note that the Felixer (
cat squirter traps) is a minor part of the strategy. More effort is being put into the development of a traditional poison bait, which some smart alec has named Curiosity®.
Eradication of feral cats underway on five identified islandsposted by zamboni at 9:44 AM on June 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
The five islands have been identified (Christmas Island, Bruny Island, Kangaroo Island, French Island and Dirk Hartog Island) and action is underway on each island. Other islands are also being investigated, such as West Island.
Five remaining mainland feral free areas identified and with actions underway
Work is underway to scope remaining areas. In areas that have been identified, action is underway with delivery partners, including state and territory governments, non-government organisations and the science community.
Five million hectares of cat control, using the best techniques for each location
Different techniques are being used across Australia for landscape management including aerial baiting, skilled shooting and trapping, detector dogs, exclusion fencing, cat squirter traps and Indigenous hunting. We have supported over 1.4 million hectares of cat management in Western Australia alone.
Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology (RMIT) has been contracted to complete the second national feral cat control survey, which will include an assessment of hectares of cat control. Results from this survey will be included in year three reporting.
Best practice feral cat management across 1 million hectares of Commonwealth land
Efforts to tackle the impact of feral cats is underway at Christmas Island, Kakadu and Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Parks. A new $500,000 investment for feral cat knockdown in Commonwealth National Parks is helping to deliver on this target.
RMIT has been contracted to complete the second national feral cat control survey, which will include an assessment of cat control on Commonwealth land. Results from this survey will be included in year three reporting.
1 million feral cats culled at the national level
RMIT has been contracted to complete the second national feral cat control survey, which will include an assessment of the number of feral cats culled. Results from this survey will be included in year three reporting.
You just know that if the situation were reversed and cats had to decide whether or not to trap & euthanize dangerous humans they would struggle with the ethics of it for about 0.6 of a second.
posted by chavenet at 9:49 AM on June 4, 2018 [42 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 9:49 AM on June 4, 2018 [42 favorites]
There's a cat cam I like a lot where they do a lot of TNR work and I do have mixed feelings about the amount of funding that goes to rehabbing feral cats with serious medical issues. I have mixed feelings about letting pregnant ferals carry to term when they're captured early in pregnancy.
I support TNR, but I don't support spending the kind of money volunteer TNR people often spend on sick cats. I understand why they do it, but I believe humane euthanasia is a morally and ethically acceptable choice, and often more humane than putting a feral animal through extensive, painful medical treatment. I rescued a friendly stray years ago and got her spay/aborted. I didn't even think twice about it.
As for the article, there are two issues here. One is the birds. If you believe that outside cats need to be eradicated to protect birds, that's one thing. The other is the effectiveness of TNR in decreasing stray/feral cat populations (assuming that you are OK with allowing outside cats to exist). I am curious if any city has tried a systematic TNR program. I know in NYC, TNR is entirely done by volunteers, with some support by the ASPCA for the actual spay/neutering. So of course it doesn't work. Volunteers have limited resources and a severely limited ability to do widespread work. If a neighborhood or block doesn't have someone living there who is interested in TNR, then the cats breed. It's entirely random and dependent on a local person having the time and resources to deal with local colonies.
posted by Mavri at 9:50 AM on June 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
I support TNR, but I don't support spending the kind of money volunteer TNR people often spend on sick cats. I understand why they do it, but I believe humane euthanasia is a morally and ethically acceptable choice, and often more humane than putting a feral animal through extensive, painful medical treatment. I rescued a friendly stray years ago and got her spay/aborted. I didn't even think twice about it.
As for the article, there are two issues here. One is the birds. If you believe that outside cats need to be eradicated to protect birds, that's one thing. The other is the effectiveness of TNR in decreasing stray/feral cat populations (assuming that you are OK with allowing outside cats to exist). I am curious if any city has tried a systematic TNR program. I know in NYC, TNR is entirely done by volunteers, with some support by the ASPCA for the actual spay/neutering. So of course it doesn't work. Volunteers have limited resources and a severely limited ability to do widespread work. If a neighborhood or block doesn't have someone living there who is interested in TNR, then the cats breed. It's entirely random and dependent on a local person having the time and resources to deal with local colonies.
posted by Mavri at 9:50 AM on June 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
I love cats (we have three) but I don't see killing cats as inherently worse than killing pigs, which is a thing that happens all the time. Not on my behalf, as I don't eat meat, but it happens all the time. And lots of people don't seem to mind one bit.
I'm definitely not against killing feral cats that are living a hard life and killing birds. I think it's for the best. As humanely as possible, please. But what needs to be done, needs to be done.
We've always had shelter cats and they're always spayed and neutered. As is common around here, they are indoor/outdoor cats; they catch mice and one of them catches a few birds every year. We don't like that at all, so she wears bells all year round. It does seem to make a difference. It's not perfect, but we're trying.
Pet owners who let their pets roam while they're not spayed/neutered, and who dump animals that they are responsible for, give other pet owners a bad name and should be flogged in public.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:53 AM on June 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm definitely not against killing feral cats that are living a hard life and killing birds. I think it's for the best. As humanely as possible, please. But what needs to be done, needs to be done.
We've always had shelter cats and they're always spayed and neutered. As is common around here, they are indoor/outdoor cats; they catch mice and one of them catches a few birds every year. We don't like that at all, so she wears bells all year round. It does seem to make a difference. It's not perfect, but we're trying.
Pet owners who let their pets roam while they're not spayed/neutered, and who dump animals that they are responsible for, give other pet owners a bad name and should be flogged in public.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:53 AM on June 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
People are terrible and animals get put to sleep all the time who have done nothing but get owned by a careless or uncaring human being. But it's still kinder to the animals than starvation, or death by car, or death by infection from fighting wounds.
Humans made this problem and we should fix it.
I don't know why we're so quick to endorse the humans who completely fuck up everything in nature by trying to organize it around our own needs to then re-organize nature yet again according to our assessment of what's right by culling millions and millions of cats. We have shown time and time again that we do not fully understand or appreciate that there are corresponding consequences to our actions. As with most things, the answer depends on a lot of factors - TNR has worked in two cat colonies that I know but is not a save-all solution.
Consequently, there are a number of places where no feral cats are worse. My experience working on a couple of farms is many are a couple of barn cats away from being overrun with other vermin. We've lived in mice- and rat-infested port cities and towns where cats were a necessity to avoid mice getting into your home, eating your plaster, pooping in your utensil drawers, and making life generally miserable and unhealthy.
Also - dying from starvation, disease, or from battle wounds is the way nearly all of nature dies. Are we so sure that a hard life really is not worth living if that's the majority of the lives on this earth?
posted by notorious medium at 10:00 AM on June 4, 2018 [20 favorites]
Humans made this problem and we should fix it.
I don't know why we're so quick to endorse the humans who completely fuck up everything in nature by trying to organize it around our own needs to then re-organize nature yet again according to our assessment of what's right by culling millions and millions of cats. We have shown time and time again that we do not fully understand or appreciate that there are corresponding consequences to our actions. As with most things, the answer depends on a lot of factors - TNR has worked in two cat colonies that I know but is not a save-all solution.
Consequently, there are a number of places where no feral cats are worse. My experience working on a couple of farms is many are a couple of barn cats away from being overrun with other vermin. We've lived in mice- and rat-infested port cities and towns where cats were a necessity to avoid mice getting into your home, eating your plaster, pooping in your utensil drawers, and making life generally miserable and unhealthy.
Also - dying from starvation, disease, or from battle wounds is the way nearly all of nature dies. Are we so sure that a hard life really is not worth living if that's the majority of the lives on this earth?
posted by notorious medium at 10:00 AM on June 4, 2018 [20 favorites]
Are we going to be any more successful at hunting cats than we are at euthanizing them?
Isn't the problem - as Franklin the Turtle puts it, "The trouble with cats is that you never know where they are" - the same for both approaches?
posted by clawsoon at 10:03 AM on June 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Isn't the problem - as Franklin the Turtle puts it, "The trouble with cats is that you never know where they are" - the same for both approaches?
posted by clawsoon at 10:03 AM on June 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
The study linked from the article doesn't really say that TNR doesn't work. It does say that TNR programs need to be focused to work. The effort must be sustained, it's best if there's a way to control the influx of new animals, and you need to achieve a high rate of sterilization. It also says the same is true of lethal methods of population control, so that study at least doesn't really support the conclusion "TNR doesn't work, lethal methods always needed".
There's certainly situations where the cats simply cannot be allowed to remain in the area. There's probably situations where the cats cannot be trapped and hunting or poisoning is a more viable option. In other cases, TNR will work fine, but it's going to be hard to make progress either way.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:07 AM on June 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
There's certainly situations where the cats simply cannot be allowed to remain in the area. There's probably situations where the cats cannot be trapped and hunting or poisoning is a more viable option. In other cases, TNR will work fine, but it's going to be hard to make progress either way.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:07 AM on June 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
You just know that if the situation were reversed and cats had to decide whether or not to trap & euthanize dangerous humans they would struggle with the ethics of it for about 0.6 of a second.
Nah, they'd bat it around for a few minutes first.
posted by Etrigan at 10:16 AM on June 4, 2018 [33 favorites]
Nah, they'd bat it around for a few minutes first.
posted by Etrigan at 10:16 AM on June 4, 2018 [33 favorites]
The trouble is that negligent pet owners continue to abandon pet cats
It seems to me that wiping out feral cat colonies is a short-term solution, no matter the method. That's not to say you shouldn't do it - but it doesn't solve the problem of irresponsible pet owners who don't spay/neuter their animals and then abandon them or let them roam freely.
Even if we adopt the position that all feral cats must be killed, the colonies will keep coming back; the cycle will keep repeating. In the meantime, endangered species will continue to be threatened by the cats.
The most humane solution would be to figure out (and enforce) policies that stop the cats at the source. I don't know what that is, but for example: Making spay/neuter required for all pets unless you have a special license, and fining owners who let their pets roam.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:37 AM on June 4, 2018 [13 favorites]
It seems to me that wiping out feral cat colonies is a short-term solution, no matter the method. That's not to say you shouldn't do it - but it doesn't solve the problem of irresponsible pet owners who don't spay/neuter their animals and then abandon them or let them roam freely.
Even if we adopt the position that all feral cats must be killed, the colonies will keep coming back; the cycle will keep repeating. In the meantime, endangered species will continue to be threatened by the cats.
The most humane solution would be to figure out (and enforce) policies that stop the cats at the source. I don't know what that is, but for example: Making spay/neuter required for all pets unless you have a special license, and fining owners who let their pets roam.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:37 AM on June 4, 2018 [13 favorites]
Pet owners who let their pets roam while they're not spayed/neutered, and who dump animals that they are responsible for, give other pet owners a bad name and should be flogged in public.
This, a thousand times this. When the oil boom went bust a few years ago, we started losing population in this small prairie town. And some of the assholes that moved left their pets. This is disheartening. It had taken years but two colonies of feral cats had been eradicated here. Some went to farms as mousers, some kittens were adopted. We took in one. Now we might be facing a summer of more strays. I know a woman a block over that took in a pregnant female that was abandoned. Now there are kittens but they have a home.
We have cats and they're indoor at night and all winter. I know there's plenty of carnage due to our cats but the four different neighbor have said repeatedly that they're fine losing a few songbirds if it means the grackles and mice/rats are harvested. Everyone here hates grackles.
I just walked through the living room. Our formally feral kitten has come in and is taking her afternoon nap on the couch. I could pet her but that would lead to a full half hour of whining for more petting, chest rubs, chin scritches.
posted by Ber at 10:40 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
This, a thousand times this. When the oil boom went bust a few years ago, we started losing population in this small prairie town. And some of the assholes that moved left their pets. This is disheartening. It had taken years but two colonies of feral cats had been eradicated here. Some went to farms as mousers, some kittens were adopted. We took in one. Now we might be facing a summer of more strays. I know a woman a block over that took in a pregnant female that was abandoned. Now there are kittens but they have a home.
We have cats and they're indoor at night and all winter. I know there's plenty of carnage due to our cats but the four different neighbor have said repeatedly that they're fine losing a few songbirds if it means the grackles and mice/rats are harvested. Everyone here hates grackles.
I just walked through the living room. Our formally feral kitten has come in and is taking her afternoon nap on the couch. I could pet her but that would lead to a full half hour of whining for more petting, chest rubs, chin scritches.
posted by Ber at 10:40 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Robots, lasers, [and] poison" is a sensationalist way to describe the Felixer grooming trap that's being evaluated in Australia.I can't decide whether that makes the idea sound more appealing or less so. "Inbuilt blocking sensors to ensure only feral cats are sprayed" does not give me confidence this is a real thing designed by competent people. But, I can easily believe it's just their flyer that's incoherent. The laser-equipped-cat-Terminators might well be thoughtfully designed.
On topic: Cats are great. Native birds are also great. As a member of a society that kills hundreds of millions of pigs each year, 'cause they taste good, I'd argue the ethical issues are several pages down on the list of the pressing animal welfare concerns we face. I'm happy to let the experts figure this one out and will weep for the cats who live hard lives in all possible scenarios.
posted by eotvos at 10:46 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
85% of global Red List endangered species have their status due to habitat destruction. Lots of people hate cats and don't mind talking about killing them. But people get all squiggly when we point out that the real problem for most biota is the size of the human population.
posted by hydropsyche at 10:50 AM on June 4, 2018 [34 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 10:50 AM on June 4, 2018 [34 favorites]
It seems to me that wiping out feral cat colonies is a short-term solution, no matter the method. That's not to say you shouldn't do it - but it doesn't solve the problem of irresponsible pet owners who don't spay/neuter their animals and then abandon them or let them roam freely.
I'm always suspicious of using my own experience as data (since I appreciate how different things are in every community!) but it does seem like people are more likely to "set free" their unwanted cats than they are their unwanted dogs, and I wonder if part of that is because it's pretty obvious that stray dogs aren't going to be allowed to just wander around and be free in nearly any community in the US. Of course terrible people have an unlimited capacity to rationalize almost any selfish action, but it seems plausible that seeing stray cats in one's community and especially seeing other people feeding strays might encourage people to simply dump unwanted cats into nature in a way that they don't with dogs.
I'm curious, though, if that rings true to folks in other geographic areas - I live at the base of the mountains in Colorado and we have a fairly active predator population (including a lot of coyotes) so even "outdoor cats" that aren't strays tend to be a pretty limited problem.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:57 AM on June 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm always suspicious of using my own experience as data (since I appreciate how different things are in every community!) but it does seem like people are more likely to "set free" their unwanted cats than they are their unwanted dogs, and I wonder if part of that is because it's pretty obvious that stray dogs aren't going to be allowed to just wander around and be free in nearly any community in the US. Of course terrible people have an unlimited capacity to rationalize almost any selfish action, but it seems plausible that seeing stray cats in one's community and especially seeing other people feeding strays might encourage people to simply dump unwanted cats into nature in a way that they don't with dogs.
I'm curious, though, if that rings true to folks in other geographic areas - I live at the base of the mountains in Colorado and we have a fairly active predator population (including a lot of coyotes) so even "outdoor cats" that aren't strays tend to be a pretty limited problem.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:57 AM on June 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd argue that the issue has been poorly framed by the anti TNR side here.
The problem isn't that TNR doesn't work, the problem is that TNR requires a fairly expensive and long term commitment to work.
The thing is, an euthanasia program would **ALSO** require a fairly expensive and long term commitment to work.
And neither will ever work as long as people abandon cats or have outdoor cats or, basically, as long as it's legal for J. Random Citizen to own a non-sterilized cat.
And that runs smack into a lot of ingrained bad attitudes on the part of cat owners. I grew up with the idea of indoor/outdoor cats as normative and considered keeping a cat 100% indoors to be bizarre and borderline cruel until I was in my late 30's and couldn't really deny the stats on cats and extinction any longer. There's going to be a lot of cat people who have a similar resistance to the idea of laws mandating all cats be kept indoors.
To actually solve the problem would require that as near to 100% of cats as possible be chipped, which means laws mandating that, that as near to 100% of pet cats as possible be sterilized which means laws mandating that, and a decade or more of fairly expensive feral cat abatement programs (whether TNR or otherwise).
The question of TNR vs euthanasia is, in a great many ways, ancillary to the discussion of how to deal with feral cat populations.
Because, and this is the other thing, we've got to confront the fact that we must be talking about total elimination (or as close as we can get) of feral cat populations. Given the way people feed feral cats, the idea of a feral cat population that's in balance with the ecology isn't going to work. In theory the ecosystem involves feral cats, in practice humans will feed them until the population explodes and they wreak havoc on the ecosystem. Therefore we simply cannot have feral cats period.
Basically we've got to pass a couple of laws many people will object to in strong emotional terms, and which will be more invasive than most Americans are comfortable with, and simultaneously commit to spending a fair amount of government money on feral cat abatement programs (whether TNR or otherwise).
Volunteer, poorly funded, TNR programs are all but guaranteed to fail miserably not because TNR is inherently flawed but because any badly funded volunteer effort is doomed to fail.
Personally I'm a bleeding heart and I'd rather see the cat abatement done by TNR. But much as I love cats I can see arguments for euthanasia mainly in that it'll end the problem that much quicker and help bird populations recover that much quicker.
posted by sotonohito at 11:14 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
The problem isn't that TNR doesn't work, the problem is that TNR requires a fairly expensive and long term commitment to work.
The thing is, an euthanasia program would **ALSO** require a fairly expensive and long term commitment to work.
And neither will ever work as long as people abandon cats or have outdoor cats or, basically, as long as it's legal for J. Random Citizen to own a non-sterilized cat.
And that runs smack into a lot of ingrained bad attitudes on the part of cat owners. I grew up with the idea of indoor/outdoor cats as normative and considered keeping a cat 100% indoors to be bizarre and borderline cruel until I was in my late 30's and couldn't really deny the stats on cats and extinction any longer. There's going to be a lot of cat people who have a similar resistance to the idea of laws mandating all cats be kept indoors.
To actually solve the problem would require that as near to 100% of cats as possible be chipped, which means laws mandating that, that as near to 100% of pet cats as possible be sterilized which means laws mandating that, and a decade or more of fairly expensive feral cat abatement programs (whether TNR or otherwise).
The question of TNR vs euthanasia is, in a great many ways, ancillary to the discussion of how to deal with feral cat populations.
Because, and this is the other thing, we've got to confront the fact that we must be talking about total elimination (or as close as we can get) of feral cat populations. Given the way people feed feral cats, the idea of a feral cat population that's in balance with the ecology isn't going to work. In theory the ecosystem involves feral cats, in practice humans will feed them until the population explodes and they wreak havoc on the ecosystem. Therefore we simply cannot have feral cats period.
Basically we've got to pass a couple of laws many people will object to in strong emotional terms, and which will be more invasive than most Americans are comfortable with, and simultaneously commit to spending a fair amount of government money on feral cat abatement programs (whether TNR or otherwise).
Volunteer, poorly funded, TNR programs are all but guaranteed to fail miserably not because TNR is inherently flawed but because any badly funded volunteer effort is doomed to fail.
Personally I'm a bleeding heart and I'd rather see the cat abatement done by TNR. But much as I love cats I can see arguments for euthanasia mainly in that it'll end the problem that much quicker and help bird populations recover that much quicker.
posted by sotonohito at 11:14 AM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
The most humane solution would be to figure out (and enforce) policies that stop the cats at the source.
Remember to spay and neuter your pet owners.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:33 AM on June 4, 2018 [14 favorites]
Remember to spay and neuter your pet owners.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:33 AM on June 4, 2018 [14 favorites]
One glimmer of hope is that TNR appears to work only if it leads to wide scale adoption of feral cats.
My two were part of a litter that were caught as kittens with their mother. The mother was spayed and released. We got them when they were three months old, and while it wasn't easy socializing them, they're good kitties. They also frustrate the hell out of the mister, who wishes we had "normal" pets. Adopting formerly feral cats, even if you get them super young, is demanding and often disappointing, and in the grand scheme of things, I don't think a lot of potential pet owners are up to it.
posted by Ruki at 11:39 AM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
My two were part of a litter that were caught as kittens with their mother. The mother was spayed and released. We got them when they were three months old, and while it wasn't easy socializing them, they're good kitties. They also frustrate the hell out of the mister, who wishes we had "normal" pets. Adopting formerly feral cats, even if you get them super young, is demanding and often disappointing, and in the grand scheme of things, I don't think a lot of potential pet owners are up to it.
posted by Ruki at 11:39 AM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Don't I remember something from a couple of years ago about releasing genetically modified mosquitoes into the environment which would somehow cause the population of that mosquito species to crash? Whatever happened to that?
posted by clawsoon at 12:06 PM on June 4, 2018
posted by clawsoon at 12:06 PM on June 4, 2018
One of my cats was a feral cat, I adopted her at not quite one year old. It took a year before I could touch her, though she immediately gave up the outside and catching rodents for the fine life of unlimited kibble. Even now she isn't at all cuddly, though she likes to be in the same room as me often.
It is fine as I have two more affectionate cats and I got her as a friend for one of them, and it was completely successful. But even then I sometimes find this hard.
Feral kittens can be socialised reasonably easily, but adult cats are not low effort pets to adopt.
posted by jeather at 12:10 PM on June 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
It is fine as I have two more affectionate cats and I got her as a friend for one of them, and it was completely successful. But even then I sometimes find this hard.
Feral kittens can be socialised reasonably easily, but adult cats are not low effort pets to adopt.
posted by jeather at 12:10 PM on June 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
But people get all squiggly when we point out that the real problem for most biota is the size of the human population.
Given all the alarmist articles about the low birthrate of Millennials that you see everywhere, I feel like lots of humans are taking care of that part themselves.
Cats, alas, do not stop having kittens because they can't pay off their student loans or buy a house.
This is kind of personal to me because one of the bones of contention between my ex and me is that he couldn't stand to make our cat stay inside, and I've always felt bad about it. Our cat kills birds, also snakes, lizards, and only occasionally, mice. He is too small to kill rats which is the only other pest I'd be glad to see him go after. But the lizards, birds and grass snakes don't deserve what he does to them, out of instinct.
So anyway the cat is going with me, and is about to have to learn that "outside" is going to be either his screened-in catio or a walk on a leash, because it's way too dangerous/filled with cars to go outside where we are moving.
And my ex still gets all mopey about the cat's suffering. But I don't think the cat will suffer. He will get scritches and playing and be able to watch birds and generally continue to sleep 20 hours a day like he does now. He just won't be able to kill things unless they come into our apartment. He also won't be able to run in front of cars or get in fights, both of which he does now.
I think that's a good trade. I don't think cats suffer existential angst from having to stay inside.
posted by emjaybee at 12:20 PM on June 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
Given all the alarmist articles about the low birthrate of Millennials that you see everywhere, I feel like lots of humans are taking care of that part themselves.
Cats, alas, do not stop having kittens because they can't pay off their student loans or buy a house.
This is kind of personal to me because one of the bones of contention between my ex and me is that he couldn't stand to make our cat stay inside, and I've always felt bad about it. Our cat kills birds, also snakes, lizards, and only occasionally, mice. He is too small to kill rats which is the only other pest I'd be glad to see him go after. But the lizards, birds and grass snakes don't deserve what he does to them, out of instinct.
So anyway the cat is going with me, and is about to have to learn that "outside" is going to be either his screened-in catio or a walk on a leash, because it's way too dangerous/filled with cars to go outside where we are moving.
And my ex still gets all mopey about the cat's suffering. But I don't think the cat will suffer. He will get scritches and playing and be able to watch birds and generally continue to sleep 20 hours a day like he does now. He just won't be able to kill things unless they come into our apartment. He also won't be able to run in front of cars or get in fights, both of which he does now.
I think that's a good trade. I don't think cats suffer existential angst from having to stay inside.
posted by emjaybee at 12:20 PM on June 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
I love my cats and keep them indoors. Eliminating feral cats is a good idea.
We need to get people to understand that just because we keep one as a pet, removing the feral animals is not killing someone's pet. It is hard, and I don't want to have to explain that to my (cat loving) son, but it seems increasingly necessary.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:23 PM on June 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
We need to get people to understand that just because we keep one as a pet, removing the feral animals is not killing someone's pet. It is hard, and I don't want to have to explain that to my (cat loving) son, but it seems increasingly necessary.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:23 PM on June 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Other than environmentally sensitive areas like the islands in Australia/New Zealand etc., are truly feral cats really the problem?
At least where I am in semi-suburbia, the stray cat population is either on farms, where they serve the function of keeping the pest population down or in the industrial part of town where they subsist mostly on rats and the like.
They live relatively short lives and are kept mainly in check through predation from other animals and the general dangerousness of living near mechanized machinery.
The ones killing the songbirds are the owned pets that people let roam free under some misguided impression that it is "natural".
I never see a skittish, mangy cat in my yard, it's the well-fed shiny coated housepet sauntering through on its way to the birdbath.
The cat I catch crapping on my lawn clearly has a safe, secure shelter in which to spend the night.
Let me trap those ones and you can neuter and return all the strays you want.
posted by madajb at 12:24 PM on June 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
At least where I am in semi-suburbia, the stray cat population is either on farms, where they serve the function of keeping the pest population down or in the industrial part of town where they subsist mostly on rats and the like.
They live relatively short lives and are kept mainly in check through predation from other animals and the general dangerousness of living near mechanized machinery.
The ones killing the songbirds are the owned pets that people let roam free under some misguided impression that it is "natural".
I never see a skittish, mangy cat in my yard, it's the well-fed shiny coated housepet sauntering through on its way to the birdbath.
The cat I catch crapping on my lawn clearly has a safe, secure shelter in which to spend the night.
Let me trap those ones and you can neuter and return all the strays you want.
posted by madajb at 12:24 PM on June 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
The thing about many feral cat colonies is that they live and predate in areas that are specifically not heavily trafficked by humans, which also happen to be the places that many species of bird and rodent that can't adapt to human settlement live.
One thing I've learned and think is important for more people to know, is that cats are not at all an effective rodent control measure compared to dozens and dozens of modern and old-school trap designs. We've always had farm cats on both sides of my families places, but about 10 years ago we stopped feeding the farm cats at one and started setting out really basic kill traps, the kind with a 5 gallon bucket with a dowel through the top that can spin freely and some peanut butter in the middle. That worked better in a few months than years of cats ever did. Cats kill rats sorta as a side project, they aren't actually very good at it.
posted by neonrev at 12:39 PM on June 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
One thing I've learned and think is important for more people to know, is that cats are not at all an effective rodent control measure compared to dozens and dozens of modern and old-school trap designs. We've always had farm cats on both sides of my families places, but about 10 years ago we stopped feeding the farm cats at one and started setting out really basic kill traps, the kind with a 5 gallon bucket with a dowel through the top that can spin freely and some peanut butter in the middle. That worked better in a few months than years of cats ever did. Cats kill rats sorta as a side project, they aren't actually very good at it.
posted by neonrev at 12:39 PM on June 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
Given all the alarmist articles about the low birthrate of Millennials that you see everywhere, I feel like lots of humans are taking care of that part themselves.
I can't tell if this is supposed to be a joke, but in case it's not, you should know that we are still experiencing exponential growth in the human population (meaning that not just the number of people but the rate of increase continues to increase). For "fun", here's the US Census Bureau's Human Population Clock.
Atmospheric CO2 concentration also continues to increase exponentially (nicely proportional to the human population). We just passed the 410 ppm threshold.
A similar clock for habitat destruction doesn't seem to exist, but on average we destroy 160,000 square kilometers of forest every year (that's just forest, not other types of habitat).
But, sure, blame cats rather than people if it helps you sleep at night.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:44 PM on June 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
I can't tell if this is supposed to be a joke, but in case it's not, you should know that we are still experiencing exponential growth in the human population (meaning that not just the number of people but the rate of increase continues to increase). For "fun", here's the US Census Bureau's Human Population Clock.
Atmospheric CO2 concentration also continues to increase exponentially (nicely proportional to the human population). We just passed the 410 ppm threshold.
A similar clock for habitat destruction doesn't seem to exist, but on average we destroy 160,000 square kilometers of forest every year (that's just forest, not other types of habitat).
But, sure, blame cats rather than people if it helps you sleep at night.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:44 PM on June 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
I wish more cities to TNR more seriously. I was in Thailand in March and the amount of feral cats and blind kittens in Chiang Mai and Bangkok was heartbreaking. On the island of Ko Lanta, there was a full force effort to TNR and they managed to hit their target of 80% spayed/neutered.
We should be careful about assuming wiping out feral cats is going to solve public health issue. Cats control the rodent population that is also a well-known vector for disease and biblical plagues.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 12:51 PM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
We should be careful about assuming wiping out feral cats is going to solve public health issue. Cats control the rodent population that is also a well-known vector for disease and biblical plagues.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 12:51 PM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Pet ownership is, in and of itself, super problematic. Our selectively-indulgent attitude toward some domesticated/-able animals contributes to a lot of human AND animal suffering and a lot of social difficulties - see the reluctance of Americans in particular to live in modest-size dense housing because yards are for dogs, and they don't generally want to let you have 3+ cats in an apartment, and it's hard to get an 80lb pet to the vet without a private car, and it's basically impossible to evacuate Houston or New Orleans because people stay because of the pets or have to leave in private transportation because of pets.
People stay in abusive relationships for them, people have to make decisions about who gets to eat...a lot of pets suffer when fortunes turn for owners, or when shitty people get their hands on them, or when they get turned out/lost in environments that guarantee a short, horrible existence. People mean well and then suddenly they're overwhelmed and really bad things happen. People will do themselves physical harm taking care of orphaned kittens around the clock, mostly because it makes them feel good, regardless of the likely circumstances of most of those kittens' lives and the additional lives lost to them. Suicide rates for veterinarians is reaching crisis levels, because it's just this firehose of suffering.
There should be less of these animals across the board. "No-kill" makes a fuzzy feeling, but properly-performed euthanasia is a lot less awful than most of the ends that can be met. There should not be a lot of pets in homes or shelters or available for adoption, and with a very narrow tiny bit of leeway for a few kinds of working dogs there should be no new puppies and kitties one way or another. That is sad and hard and I love my three dogs too but I'm realizing, after they're all gone in the next couple of years probably, getting any more is a wrong thing to do. I mean, me not adopting more dogs isn't going to fix anything, and I could (probably, knock wood, as we all do) make a happy home for a few more, and that'll be the caveat that probably gets me in the end, but I still don't think it's good.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:52 PM on June 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
People stay in abusive relationships for them, people have to make decisions about who gets to eat...a lot of pets suffer when fortunes turn for owners, or when shitty people get their hands on them, or when they get turned out/lost in environments that guarantee a short, horrible existence. People mean well and then suddenly they're overwhelmed and really bad things happen. People will do themselves physical harm taking care of orphaned kittens around the clock, mostly because it makes them feel good, regardless of the likely circumstances of most of those kittens' lives and the additional lives lost to them. Suicide rates for veterinarians is reaching crisis levels, because it's just this firehose of suffering.
There should be less of these animals across the board. "No-kill" makes a fuzzy feeling, but properly-performed euthanasia is a lot less awful than most of the ends that can be met. There should not be a lot of pets in homes or shelters or available for adoption, and with a very narrow tiny bit of leeway for a few kinds of working dogs there should be no new puppies and kitties one way or another. That is sad and hard and I love my three dogs too but I'm realizing, after they're all gone in the next couple of years probably, getting any more is a wrong thing to do. I mean, me not adopting more dogs isn't going to fix anything, and I could (probably, knock wood, as we all do) make a happy home for a few more, and that'll be the caveat that probably gets me in the end, but I still don't think it's good.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:52 PM on June 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
Cats, alas, do not stop having kittens because they can't pay off their student loans or buy a house.
Have we tried saddling feral cats with crushing loan debt?
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:12 PM on June 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
Have we tried saddling feral cats with crushing loan debt?
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:12 PM on June 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
GenjiandProust, I'll selflessly sacrifice mine to the effort.
posted by fiercecupcake at 1:14 PM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 1:14 PM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Why are we so against euthanasia? Especially when comparing that, as a fate, to a life of behavioral difficulties (caused by emotional distress, confusion, and reactivity to suboptimal conditions), followed by a death accompanied by violence or illness.
Because those standards also apply to an awful lot of people, definitely including me.
posted by corb at 1:59 PM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Because those standards also apply to an awful lot of people, definitely including me.
posted by corb at 1:59 PM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Two of our cats were captured (and fixed) from feral cat colonies (I believe near Toronto) as kittens. Both came from the same awesome foster family (a friend of Ms. nobeagle). The first is a little lady clearly with some mommy issues. If I ever sit down cross legged, or at the kitchen table (except for family dinner), she'll jump into my lap, tuck her head under my flannel and suckle on my shirt while kneading my hips with her claws. She's fine looking at the other cats from a distance but yowls if they get near her. She's usually sleeping 1 foot away from our dog because the other cats avoid him.
The other ex-colony cat has always been more wary and stand off-ish. Interested in us and unafraid, but generally unaffectionate. Over the years he's gotten to the point where he'll come over and rub up against our legs, and arch his back as we bend down to pet him. And then you can watch as he realizes what he just did and he'll shake his head, and look at us with confusion because big (9.5 whole pounds) bad ally cats don't like nor sollicit attention from humans! And then he'll come back and repeat the confused look. Our bedroom is offlimits to cats (allergies), but I'll sleep on the couch if I'm coughing from a cold so Ms. nobeagle can sleep. When I do, this bad ex-feral cat is the one that chooses to sleep on me for most of the night.
Our third current cat was taken from his previous owner for neglect. Over weight, underexercised and he'd had maggots in his posterior because he was trapped with his feces in a carrier. He doesn't get along with the other cats, and he'll even swat (his previous owner declawed him) and yell at the 60 lb dog and us humans if he thinks we're invading his space bubble. And yes, if you're standing where he wants to go, that is an invasion of his space! But if you bend over to pet him or get out his brush, he's your best friend and near instantly starts the purring. Our middle son has pondered taking him (with us covering vet costs) when he eventually moves out, and I could seem him becoming downright cuddly as an only cat.
Our last guy just missed being part of the problem; he was a Tom who'd been a pet and apparently released when the previous owners didn't want him. He was even microchiped, but the owners never replied to contact attempts. We got him for the princely sum of $10 by adopting him at the same time as our third. He's 22lbs of ex-tomcat love - his face strikingly differently from the others shaped from the late-in-life neuter. This guy is the most cuddly (but don't pick him up) of the bunch and is downright agressive in his need to show affection and then fall asleep/play dead in your lap.
He's so often trying to rub against our legs, or trying to run between walking legs (including while on stairs) that he's a constant tripping hazard for me. While he's rubbing his face against one's hands while petting him, he sometimess gets so enthalled that he'll bite. It may have been the biting that caused his previous owners to get rid of him, but I like to think he killed (via tripping) his previous owners and thus they couldn't reply.
Despite the cats not being fond of the dog, cats 2 and 4 almost always now come to greet us at the door despite an over excited jumping barking dog who's also there to greet us.
I guess the point of this is to say trap and neuter are great, but more people need to never get cats from breeders, obviating the need of release. And/or cat breeders need to not be a thing. Getting a cat from a pet store or breeder should be as looked down upon as declawing is becoming (well, it should be even more looked down upon).
Realistically given current cat populations I don't think there's any reason currently to allow people to own non-neutered cats. This of course could change as capture from wild colonies to support pet desire becomes the norm. The legal and logistical implementations of that would be non-trivial to make platable to most.
posted by nobeagle at 2:01 PM on June 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
The other ex-colony cat has always been more wary and stand off-ish. Interested in us and unafraid, but generally unaffectionate. Over the years he's gotten to the point where he'll come over and rub up against our legs, and arch his back as we bend down to pet him. And then you can watch as he realizes what he just did and he'll shake his head, and look at us with confusion because big (9.5 whole pounds) bad ally cats don't like nor sollicit attention from humans! And then he'll come back and repeat the confused look. Our bedroom is offlimits to cats (allergies), but I'll sleep on the couch if I'm coughing from a cold so Ms. nobeagle can sleep. When I do, this bad ex-feral cat is the one that chooses to sleep on me for most of the night.
Our third current cat was taken from his previous owner for neglect. Over weight, underexercised and he'd had maggots in his posterior because he was trapped with his feces in a carrier. He doesn't get along with the other cats, and he'll even swat (his previous owner declawed him) and yell at the 60 lb dog and us humans if he thinks we're invading his space bubble. And yes, if you're standing where he wants to go, that is an invasion of his space! But if you bend over to pet him or get out his brush, he's your best friend and near instantly starts the purring. Our middle son has pondered taking him (with us covering vet costs) when he eventually moves out, and I could seem him becoming downright cuddly as an only cat.
Our last guy just missed being part of the problem; he was a Tom who'd been a pet and apparently released when the previous owners didn't want him. He was even microchiped, but the owners never replied to contact attempts. We got him for the princely sum of $10 by adopting him at the same time as our third. He's 22lbs of ex-tomcat love - his face strikingly differently from the others shaped from the late-in-life neuter. This guy is the most cuddly (but don't pick him up) of the bunch and is downright agressive in his need to show affection and then fall asleep/play dead in your lap.
He's so often trying to rub against our legs, or trying to run between walking legs (including while on stairs) that he's a constant tripping hazard for me. While he's rubbing his face against one's hands while petting him, he sometimess gets so enthalled that he'll bite. It may have been the biting that caused his previous owners to get rid of him, but I like to think he killed (via tripping) his previous owners and thus they couldn't reply.
Despite the cats not being fond of the dog, cats 2 and 4 almost always now come to greet us at the door despite an over excited jumping barking dog who's also there to greet us.
I guess the point of this is to say trap and neuter are great, but more people need to never get cats from breeders, obviating the need of release. And/or cat breeders need to not be a thing. Getting a cat from a pet store or breeder should be as looked down upon as declawing is becoming (well, it should be even more looked down upon).
Realistically given current cat populations I don't think there's any reason currently to allow people to own non-neutered cats. This of course could change as capture from wild colonies to support pet desire becomes the norm. The legal and logistical implementations of that would be non-trivial to make platable to most.
posted by nobeagle at 2:01 PM on June 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
We've worked with TNR programs in our small town, and seen it work. But also, we've seen other colonies come up when folks dump their cats. I've wondered if a more reasonable, less laser robot focused, method, might be providing something like feralstat to groups that feed colonies. hmm...Feralstat appears to be off the market, but surely someone can figure out feline birth control faster than we can make pet owners stop dumping.
posted by korej at 3:08 PM on June 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by korej at 3:08 PM on June 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
One of the vets I work with (who has a lot of shelter/feral experience) says she's long thought that vasectomizing rather than neutering feral tomcats would be one way to control feral cat populations, because they would keep all other males out of a given area, and thereby reduce their access to females to breed to.
posted by biscotti at 3:13 PM on June 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by biscotti at 3:13 PM on June 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
The one thing that I'm reading that it looks like people are just accepting is the setting up of feeding stations. Seriously, what the fuck? That's the equivalent of fertilizing and watering kudzu. The only reason why we have such a large feral cat population is because people buy food for them and feed them. They're not living off what they kill.
I don't know how practical it would be to ban feeding stations. Maybe ban them in public areas- if you want one, you have to manage it on your property. Of course, then you have things like the Google campus having four separate feeding stations, right next to the cat toys known as owl chicks.
Honestly, we don't need to talk about culls and euthanasia. Just have a widespread campaign against feeding feral cats. I had no idea that people who run TNR feed the cats. Is the goal to maintain a cat colony for the next fifteen years while it kills all the birds in the area, or is the goal to actually cut down on the number of feral cats?
posted by Hactar at 3:27 PM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
I don't know how practical it would be to ban feeding stations. Maybe ban them in public areas- if you want one, you have to manage it on your property. Of course, then you have things like the Google campus having four separate feeding stations, right next to the cat toys known as owl chicks.
Honestly, we don't need to talk about culls and euthanasia. Just have a widespread campaign against feeding feral cats. I had no idea that people who run TNR feed the cats. Is the goal to maintain a cat colony for the next fifteen years while it kills all the birds in the area, or is the goal to actually cut down on the number of feral cats?
posted by Hactar at 3:27 PM on June 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
I am among the people who find the cat-feeders bizarre. If you're feeding them with the goal of attracting them to one place where you can capture/spay/neuter them, sure. But that doesn't appear to be what's happening.
Two of our last three cats were rescues. The one that was adopted as an adult was a handful at first, but the most recent was about 5 months when we got her, and she's a delight, if a little stand-offish, snuggling-wise.
posted by aspersioncast at 3:41 PM on June 4, 2018
Two of our last three cats were rescues. The one that was adopted as an adult was a handful at first, but the most recent was about 5 months when we got her, and she's a delight, if a little stand-offish, snuggling-wise.
posted by aspersioncast at 3:41 PM on June 4, 2018
Disclaimer: I am a huge cat person. I have four cats, one of whom came from a feral colony. I'm hardly unbiased. I'm also a bleeding heart. My cats are indoor-only, with a catio in their future, for their own safety as well as that of my backyard songbirds. They can't get hit by a car, they don't bring in fleas and ticks, they don't get in fights, they don't get lost, etc. And around here there are coyotes, bobcats, mountain lions (yes, in the 'burbs!) and raccoons, none of which I want my cats to tangle with.
I can't help a sense of "reals before feels, you soft-headed laydeez and cat dads!" There's an unpleasant (often misogynistic) history of mostly white men using "science" as a cudgel, and positioning themselves as tough-minded truth-tellers opposed to moonbats and bleeding hearts who will lead society/the planet to ruin thanks to their tender fee-fees. I think some anti-feral types fall into this mindset. It says a lot about Marra's Cat Wars that Jonathan fucking Franzen provided one of the puff-copy blurbs. If a book is based on science, why enlist a novelist to endorse it? (Marra also got a Jared Diamond endorsement - at least Diamond is an ornithologist!)
With feral cats, the problem is human-created. And the mess is being mopped up by volunteers, funded by charity - meaning it's catch-as-catch-can and often half-assed, because the problem is too great for a few volunteers and some charity money to solve. That doesn't mean "not effective, abandon it" it means "what would a properly funded and staffed TNR program look like?" And TNR (indeed any kind of feral cat problem solving) in the US is way fucking down on the list of pressing problems to solve right now.
Marra, in TFA, says he is a cat lover, and I believe him. I think there are a lot of people who love pet cats but think ferals are pests, just like many people love their own dogs but not strays. What gives me pause are people who use ferals as a reason to hate all cats, that pet cats are "tame but not domestic," bray about diseases and toxoplasmosis never mind that indoor cats who don't eat raw meat or hunt aren't at risk, and raw meat is a more likely vector for toxo than an indoor cat. But some people hear "cats" and think "ferals!" and think that keeping your cat inside or at least confined to a catio enclosure is just the worst and meanest thing to do because Cats Are Really Wild Animals, so best to just eliminate them entirely. So...I wonder if curbing the feral population will paradoxically increase the status of pet cats? Curbing the stray dog population seemed to really up the status of pet dogs, and now most of them are purposefully obtained rather than "Free puppies!" or a stray following one home like Ribsy and Henry Huggins.
I support spaying, neutering, and microchipping, which have additional benefits (fixed cats are nicer to have around, and microchips help lost pets get back home). I am not hardcore against purebreds because there are people who want or need one for Reasons (allergies, temperament). And maybe purpose-obtained, paid-for purebreds will be treated better, who knows. I do think a major problem is people see cats as disposable.
Pet-keeping seems to be universal and date back to the Stone Age - it isn't just something that pampered, decadent, selfish Americans do. If people don't want to live in apartments due to no-pet policies maybe it's those policies that need to change; there's nothing inherent in dense housing that precludes pets. Likewise, if people "need" their own cars to take their pets to the vet, or won't evacuate a disaster area due to having pets, those are issues that can be solved by better public transportation, taxis, etc. In other words, those are structural, not pet, problems.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:59 PM on June 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
I can't help a sense of "reals before feels, you soft-headed laydeez and cat dads!" There's an unpleasant (often misogynistic) history of mostly white men using "science" as a cudgel, and positioning themselves as tough-minded truth-tellers opposed to moonbats and bleeding hearts who will lead society/the planet to ruin thanks to their tender fee-fees. I think some anti-feral types fall into this mindset. It says a lot about Marra's Cat Wars that Jonathan fucking Franzen provided one of the puff-copy blurbs. If a book is based on science, why enlist a novelist to endorse it? (Marra also got a Jared Diamond endorsement - at least Diamond is an ornithologist!)
With feral cats, the problem is human-created. And the mess is being mopped up by volunteers, funded by charity - meaning it's catch-as-catch-can and often half-assed, because the problem is too great for a few volunteers and some charity money to solve. That doesn't mean "not effective, abandon it" it means "what would a properly funded and staffed TNR program look like?" And TNR (indeed any kind of feral cat problem solving) in the US is way fucking down on the list of pressing problems to solve right now.
Marra, in TFA, says he is a cat lover, and I believe him. I think there are a lot of people who love pet cats but think ferals are pests, just like many people love their own dogs but not strays. What gives me pause are people who use ferals as a reason to hate all cats, that pet cats are "tame but not domestic," bray about diseases and toxoplasmosis never mind that indoor cats who don't eat raw meat or hunt aren't at risk, and raw meat is a more likely vector for toxo than an indoor cat. But some people hear "cats" and think "ferals!" and think that keeping your cat inside or at least confined to a catio enclosure is just the worst and meanest thing to do because Cats Are Really Wild Animals, so best to just eliminate them entirely. So...I wonder if curbing the feral population will paradoxically increase the status of pet cats? Curbing the stray dog population seemed to really up the status of pet dogs, and now most of them are purposefully obtained rather than "Free puppies!" or a stray following one home like Ribsy and Henry Huggins.
I support spaying, neutering, and microchipping, which have additional benefits (fixed cats are nicer to have around, and microchips help lost pets get back home). I am not hardcore against purebreds because there are people who want or need one for Reasons (allergies, temperament). And maybe purpose-obtained, paid-for purebreds will be treated better, who knows. I do think a major problem is people see cats as disposable.
Pet-keeping seems to be universal and date back to the Stone Age - it isn't just something that pampered, decadent, selfish Americans do. If people don't want to live in apartments due to no-pet policies maybe it's those policies that need to change; there's nothing inherent in dense housing that precludes pets. Likewise, if people "need" their own cars to take their pets to the vet, or won't evacuate a disaster area due to having pets, those are issues that can be solved by better public transportation, taxis, etc. In other words, those are structural, not pet, problems.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:59 PM on June 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
I do think a major problem is people see cats as disposable.
Definitely. A while back we had a neighbor move out and just leave their cat, who was a total sweetheart. It was really sad to see, and it was shameful that the neighbor couldn't even be bothered to take her pet to the local no-kill shelter. (Happy ending: we found her a new home as soon as we had confirmed what happened.)
But when I was a kid people mostly let their dogs run loose, and the loose neighborhood dogs plus strays were really scary to me when I was small. I was lucky to not get bitten a few times, and plenty of people were. I'd like to see an equivalent change happen, similar to how you just don't see loose/stray dogs in most parts of the US anymore. I'm not sure what that would exactly look like, but probably it would be more expectation of keeping cats indoors, and more serious consequences for stray/loose animals.
As coyotes continue to expand their range, the cat issue in parts of the Americas will get solved by predation, of course, but that's not any use in places that don't have equivalent native predators and where cats are fully invasive.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:13 PM on June 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Definitely. A while back we had a neighbor move out and just leave their cat, who was a total sweetheart. It was really sad to see, and it was shameful that the neighbor couldn't even be bothered to take her pet to the local no-kill shelter. (Happy ending: we found her a new home as soon as we had confirmed what happened.)
But when I was a kid people mostly let their dogs run loose, and the loose neighborhood dogs plus strays were really scary to me when I was small. I was lucky to not get bitten a few times, and plenty of people were. I'd like to see an equivalent change happen, similar to how you just don't see loose/stray dogs in most parts of the US anymore. I'm not sure what that would exactly look like, but probably it would be more expectation of keeping cats indoors, and more serious consequences for stray/loose animals.
As coyotes continue to expand their range, the cat issue in parts of the Americas will get solved by predation, of course, but that's not any use in places that don't have equivalent native predators and where cats are fully invasive.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:13 PM on June 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
My feeling is that cats are not a serious threat to most North American bird species and that in most part of the U.S. they're not a serious enough threat to any wildlife to make new laws or control efforts necessary. I said my piece about that once in a previous thread, so I won't repeat myself here.
There are clearly places where cats are a problem, but they're a secondary problem. The main problem is habitat loss. The reason it matters how many burrowing owls the feral cats on the Google campus kill is that the amount of burrowing owl habitat left in the area is only enough to support a small number of owls.
In places where cats are having a significant impact on a particular species, I don't have any problem with an effort to kill all the feral cats. Euthanasia probably involves less suffering than a lot of other possible deaths. I don't feel any moral obligation to make sure their lives are as long as possible. (I don't think we need to feel obligated to make pet cats' lives as long as possible, either. If you think they should be kept inside because they might get into fights or get eaten, how do you feel about the lives of wild animals? Should we put them all in zoos so they can be safer and live longer?)
But I don't think cat killing efforts need to be expanded to the whole country and I don't think we need to start talking about making outdoor pet cats illegal. I don't think there's any place in my state (Vermont) where cats (pet or feral) are worth worrying about and I think the same is true in most parts of the country. Instead of trying to convince people that cats are a huge general threat, I think it would make more sense to try to convince people that there are a few crucial areas where serious cat control would be helpful. But, really, if a population has dwindled to the point where cat predation is having a huge impact, it probably means the outlook for that population isn't great even without cats.
posted by Redstart at 6:38 PM on June 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
There are clearly places where cats are a problem, but they're a secondary problem. The main problem is habitat loss. The reason it matters how many burrowing owls the feral cats on the Google campus kill is that the amount of burrowing owl habitat left in the area is only enough to support a small number of owls.
In places where cats are having a significant impact on a particular species, I don't have any problem with an effort to kill all the feral cats. Euthanasia probably involves less suffering than a lot of other possible deaths. I don't feel any moral obligation to make sure their lives are as long as possible. (I don't think we need to feel obligated to make pet cats' lives as long as possible, either. If you think they should be kept inside because they might get into fights or get eaten, how do you feel about the lives of wild animals? Should we put them all in zoos so they can be safer and live longer?)
But I don't think cat killing efforts need to be expanded to the whole country and I don't think we need to start talking about making outdoor pet cats illegal. I don't think there's any place in my state (Vermont) where cats (pet or feral) are worth worrying about and I think the same is true in most parts of the country. Instead of trying to convince people that cats are a huge general threat, I think it would make more sense to try to convince people that there are a few crucial areas where serious cat control would be helpful. But, really, if a population has dwindled to the point where cat predation is having a huge impact, it probably means the outlook for that population isn't great even without cats.
posted by Redstart at 6:38 PM on June 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Anecdote time: My pet bird was once bitten by a neighbors cat. Barely broke the skin and did no structural damage. She had full blood poisoning within hours and had to be pumped full of antibiotics and spent 48 hours at the animal hospital at deaths door. Cats are poison to birds even without killing them.
Outdoor pet cats and feral cats are an epidemic level environmental hazard for many native bird species. The fact that feeding stations are legal is insane since it will be a death sentence for many species. To those of you dismissing that, I’m sure you would go red at thinking that littering, or pouring oil into the public water system, or setting a forest fire is ok for the environment, but letting these feral cats thrive or having the millions of pet indoor cats kill a few birds each is far worse. I don’t get it.
I also have an environmental science degree but what the fuck do I know?
posted by cakebatter at 6:38 PM on June 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
Outdoor pet cats and feral cats are an epidemic level environmental hazard for many native bird species. The fact that feeding stations are legal is insane since it will be a death sentence for many species. To those of you dismissing that, I’m sure you would go red at thinking that littering, or pouring oil into the public water system, or setting a forest fire is ok for the environment, but letting these feral cats thrive or having the millions of pet indoor cats kill a few birds each is far worse. I don’t get it.
I also have an environmental science degree but what the fuck do I know?
posted by cakebatter at 6:38 PM on June 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
"Australia aims to kill two million cats by 2020 using “robots, lasers, [and] poison.”
...
Lots of people hate cats and don't mind talking about killing them. But people get all squiggly when we point out that the real problem for most biota is the size of the human population.
At 6:38 PM on August 23, 2019, the system became self-aware. At 6:41, it figured out what the real problem was.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:12 PM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
...
Lots of people hate cats and don't mind talking about killing them. But people get all squiggly when we point out that the real problem for most biota is the size of the human population.
At 6:38 PM on August 23, 2019, the system became self-aware. At 6:41, it figured out what the real problem was.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:12 PM on June 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
I can't tell if this is supposed to be a joke, but in case it's not, you should know that we are still experiencing exponential growth in the human population (meaning that not just the number of people but the rate of increase continues to increase). For "fun", here's the US Census Bureau's Human Population Clock.
No, that's not right. The human population growth rate has been decreasing for 50 years. Here's a chart.
posted by value of information at 4:00 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
No, that's not right. The human population growth rate has been decreasing for 50 years. Here's a chart.
posted by value of information at 4:00 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
I apologize for being imprecise. There are several ways to determine whether a population is experiencing exponential growth. One is to look at the slope of the line over various intervals and see that, depending on the interval, the slope continues to increase, which is still true. Another is to actually calculate per capita population growth, which can also be done several ways, using different intervals. There are also several ways to explain it to lay people.
In any case, it is clear that the human population continues to increase quite rapidly and shows no sign at all of leveling off, let alone decreasing, as some people may think if they only follow NYT click bait headlines about Millenials and childbirth.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
In any case, it is clear that the human population continues to increase quite rapidly and shows no sign at all of leveling off, let alone decreasing, as some people may think if they only follow NYT click bait headlines about Millenials and childbirth.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best of luck to any local government that attempts this. My small city attempted to give the green light to culling white-tailed deer a few years ago (TNR wasn't doing the trick) and... then PETA got involved. Lots of out-of-town protesters, nasty letters (and threats) written to members of the city council, and at least one threatening letter that made its way to a councilmember's home address, which included the name and school of the councilmember's child.
One of the councilmembers told me that the only time he's witnessed comparable anger from the wider public is when the city debated an ordinance to keep the cops from collaborating with ICE. When your tactics remind people of fashy xenophobes, I think the phrase is "not a good look."
Keep in mind these were deer, not cats. So yeah. Good luck with that!
posted by duffell at 4:43 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
One of the councilmembers told me that the only time he's witnessed comparable anger from the wider public is when the city debated an ordinance to keep the cops from collaborating with ICE. When your tactics remind people of fashy xenophobes, I think the phrase is "not a good look."
Keep in mind these were deer, not cats. So yeah. Good luck with that!
posted by duffell at 4:43 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
we are still experiencing exponential growth in the human population
posted by flabdablet at 7:52 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Rapid population growth may pose challenges for future generations, including scarcities of resources like clean water and food.If you work in media, and you see a colleague tack one of these stupid fucking Let's Just Go Off-Planet "solutions" onto any article about human population pressure, could you please just punch them in the face from me? TIA.
With all those added people, it might really be time to start thinking about how humans could move to Mars.
posted by flabdablet at 7:52 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
"85% of global Red List endangered species have their status due to habitat destruction. Lots of people hate cats and don't mind talking about killing them. But people get all squiggly when we point out that the real problem for most biota is the size of the human population"
Seems to be pretty typical. We're responsible for making countless species go extinct but there are absolutely no efforts at all going on to slow the growth of human population or habitats. We'll expand to cover every biome on earth, ones we can't live in will be shaped so we can. We need to start seeing ourselves as the animals we are and carefully consider how we move forward and how to deal with the invasive humans problem.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:45 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Seems to be pretty typical. We're responsible for making countless species go extinct but there are absolutely no efforts at all going on to slow the growth of human population or habitats. We'll expand to cover every biome on earth, ones we can't live in will be shaped so we can. We need to start seeing ourselves as the animals we are and carefully consider how we move forward and how to deal with the invasive humans problem.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:45 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Well yeah we all sorts of artificial systems in place to improve the human sustainability quota. Dams, super fertilization for crops, high rises, etc. That doesn’t excuse us for the thousands of damning offshots of irresponsible inhabitation up to and including feral cat colonies. I subscribe to the pie therory where we can reduce our impact by working on a number of slices that contribute to our problems such as global warming, so I’m not going to throw my hands up and say, human population is the imminent problem so we should dismiss lesser problems! Reducing lessor problems a slice at a time eliminates the whole pie, you dig?
posted by cakebatter at 8:17 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by cakebatter at 8:17 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
there are absolutely no efforts at all going on to slow the growth of human population or habitats.
China's one child policy did not go well.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:49 AM on June 6, 2018
China's one child policy did not go well.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:49 AM on June 6, 2018
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posted by Space Coyote at 8:35 AM on June 4, 2018 [33 favorites]