the only solution Dove offered was the opportunity to buy its products
June 5, 2018 7:54 AM Subscribe
"The enormous public success of Dove’s ads flipped a switch in the minds of other people in the attention business. The Real Beauty campaign launched a thousand imitators, but not because it inspired a wave of genuine self-reflection in the people who make a living inventing things for women to feel bad about. Instead, it taught brands like Aerie and Target, which have both received waves of positive public attention for Photoshop-free campaigns, that they could get exposure for pennies on the advertising dollar if they created content that people felt compelled to share themselves, above and beyond paid placements." Body Positivity is a Scam: How a movement intended to lift up women really just limits their acceptable emotions. Again.
The Dove Real Beauty campaign irritated me because those women were real beauties. They looked absolutely lovely, and the campaign was saying, "Dare to think these women are beautiful! You can do it if you really try!" Which: extremely fuck you. I would love to look like any one of them in their underwear.
The stereotype is that women love to shop for shoes more than anything else in the store. And a lot of us do. It's not just that shoes can be pretty and fun. It's that shoes can fit. Unless you have truly dramatic weight loss/gain or a new medical condition, the shoes you buy will never fit any worse than they did when you got them. And if the shoes don't fit at the store, it's not humiliating. You don't have to look at your failing, lumpy flesh-shell in a three-way mirror under the worst possible lighting while you hear the laughter of teenage girls in other fitting rooms. You just ask if they have these in the next size.
I'm really tired of the way I dress. I didn't design an aesthetic, but it turns out I have one, and it's "exhausted." I'm sick of wearing stuff that's designed to erase me from the public eye because I don't have the youth or figure for actual fashion fashion. I'm sick of Eileen Fisher-ing myself. I want to go full Little Edie and dress with aggressive weirdness, but I don't know where to start. I think I have to start inside.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:23 AM on June 5, 2018 [151 favorites]
The stereotype is that women love to shop for shoes more than anything else in the store. And a lot of us do. It's not just that shoes can be pretty and fun. It's that shoes can fit. Unless you have truly dramatic weight loss/gain or a new medical condition, the shoes you buy will never fit any worse than they did when you got them. And if the shoes don't fit at the store, it's not humiliating. You don't have to look at your failing, lumpy flesh-shell in a three-way mirror under the worst possible lighting while you hear the laughter of teenage girls in other fitting rooms. You just ask if they have these in the next size.
I'm really tired of the way I dress. I didn't design an aesthetic, but it turns out I have one, and it's "exhausted." I'm sick of wearing stuff that's designed to erase me from the public eye because I don't have the youth or figure for actual fashion fashion. I'm sick of Eileen Fisher-ing myself. I want to go full Little Edie and dress with aggressive weirdness, but I don't know where to start. I think I have to start inside.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:23 AM on June 5, 2018 [151 favorites]
If I had a well-fitting pair of pants for every clothing brand that had a "appreciate your body at whatever size!" campaign but did not go higher than 14, I would have a bunch of well-fitting pairs of pants.
(Likewise with the DISRUPTING THE BRA INDUSTRY BY MAKING BRAS THAT FIT YOU brands that I see advertised on Facebook every ten minutes but it turns out they only have 32-34-36 B-C.)
posted by Jeanne at 8:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [44 favorites]
(Likewise with the DISRUPTING THE BRA INDUSTRY BY MAKING BRAS THAT FIT YOU brands that I see advertised on Facebook every ten minutes but it turns out they only have 32-34-36 B-C.)
posted by Jeanne at 8:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [44 favorites]
capitalism is a scam
posted by entropicamericana at 8:37 AM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:37 AM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
I want to go full Little Edie and dress with aggressive weirdness, but I don't know where to start. I think I have to start inside.
I just want to fully endorse this and offer you as much encouragement as I possibly can.
capitalism is a scam
This is really not the same thing, and it would be great if we could not derail the thread at the very start with some dismissive brocialist erasure nonsense
posted by schadenfrau at 8:52 AM on June 5, 2018 [52 favorites]
I just want to fully endorse this and offer you as much encouragement as I possibly can.
capitalism is a scam
This is really not the same thing, and it would be great if we could not derail the thread at the very start with some dismissive brocialist erasure nonsense
posted by schadenfrau at 8:52 AM on June 5, 2018 [52 favorites]
Body positivity is being devoured by the naked-is-empowering monster and the every-woman-is-beautiful monster.
posted by LindsayIrene at 8:58 AM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 8:58 AM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
On another note: Men's brands that go up to an XL tend to go up to a bigger XL, proportionally, than women's brands.
This is one of those sorta-Tiresias experiences that you have when you switch from "women's" to "men's clothes - most men's brands, even the Cos-ish, trendier ones, go up to a 38 waist for men, but stop at a 12 (or maybe a small 14) for women. With Everlane, they've just started introducing 40 waists and XXL tees for men, but they're still at a fairly small 14 for women, and not in all items. Everlane men's pants run a bit larger than true (but not as large as, eg, ASOS or American Eagle) but their women's stuff runs small.
It is very frustrating because Everlane stuff is nice, reasonably priced for what it is (eg, cheaper and better than J Crew) and available in the same styles from season to season, while also being made in what appear to be relatively reasonable working conditions.
And of course, it's basically misogynist - I've gotten some work clothes from Everlane and I feel a lot of ambivalence about it, because they're obviously aiming at a coastal tech crowd which hates women, and as a result they're, like, cool with kinda-fat dudes but women had better be small, small, small.
posted by Frowner at 8:58 AM on June 5, 2018 [24 favorites]
This is one of those sorta-Tiresias experiences that you have when you switch from "women's" to "men's clothes - most men's brands, even the Cos-ish, trendier ones, go up to a 38 waist for men, but stop at a 12 (or maybe a small 14) for women. With Everlane, they've just started introducing 40 waists and XXL tees for men, but they're still at a fairly small 14 for women, and not in all items. Everlane men's pants run a bit larger than true (but not as large as, eg, ASOS or American Eagle) but their women's stuff runs small.
It is very frustrating because Everlane stuff is nice, reasonably priced for what it is (eg, cheaper and better than J Crew) and available in the same styles from season to season, while also being made in what appear to be relatively reasonable working conditions.
And of course, it's basically misogynist - I've gotten some work clothes from Everlane and I feel a lot of ambivalence about it, because they're obviously aiming at a coastal tech crowd which hates women, and as a result they're, like, cool with kinda-fat dudes but women had better be small, small, small.
posted by Frowner at 8:58 AM on June 5, 2018 [24 favorites]
For 'dressing with aggressive weirdness', I found thrift stores to be really useful. If you're going to strut it in snakeskin patterned tight pants and a paisley top (and I have), it's nice to try it out that look for under $10. Plus you're limited by what's there, so you get a lot of "welll.... those pants are a -little- more daring than I'd normally wear... but they fit comfy and they're only $4. Heck, let's give it a try! It's for a good cause, after all!" moments. And no fashion industry is making money off you.
posted by The otter lady at 8:59 AM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 8:59 AM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
Clothes shopping for women is such a horror show.
I went to the mall recently because I needed a sports bra, because I like to run and - well. It's more comfortable if I do so in a sports bra. I went to every store in that mall that carried bras, and tried on every bra that I thought might fit, and found... one.
And it only fit because it wasn't supportive.
When I got home, I felt so frustrated and beaten down because I just want to go for a run. And I wasn't even dealing with stigma - I wasn't looking for plus sizes. But hour after hour of "no, not for you" is mentally exhausting. God, I can't imagine it.
With non-plus sized bra sizes, it makes (some) capitalist sense, because they make sizes that fit the widest range of the market and figure that's good enough. But the mismatch between what size women actually are and what size clothes are being sold really shows you that this isn't just capitalism at work.
MAKING BRAS THAT FIT YOU
Yeah, I might have senthate mail negative feedback.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:03 AM on June 5, 2018 [20 favorites]
I went to the mall recently because I needed a sports bra, because I like to run and - well. It's more comfortable if I do so in a sports bra. I went to every store in that mall that carried bras, and tried on every bra that I thought might fit, and found... one.
And it only fit because it wasn't supportive.
When I got home, I felt so frustrated and beaten down because I just want to go for a run. And I wasn't even dealing with stigma - I wasn't looking for plus sizes. But hour after hour of "no, not for you" is mentally exhausting. God, I can't imagine it.
With non-plus sized bra sizes, it makes (some) capitalist sense, because they make sizes that fit the widest range of the market and figure that's good enough. But the mismatch between what size women actually are and what size clothes are being sold really shows you that this isn't just capitalism at work.
MAKING BRAS THAT FIT YOU
Yeah, I might have sent
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:03 AM on June 5, 2018 [20 favorites]
> capitalism is a scam
This is really not the same thing, and it would be great if we could not derail the thread at the very start with some dismissive brocialist erasure nonsense
But... the whole thesis of the article is that corporations and marketers have appropriated the body-positivity movement in order to sell stuff, in the process destroying the social benefit that it had to offer.
I totally agree that the constant urge by some to change the topic to economics and capitalism whenever feminism and other social justice issues are brought up is a huge problem. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a meaningful intersection of capitalism and misogyny that is worth discussing, and this article really does seem to be about that.
posted by biogeo at 9:05 AM on June 5, 2018 [43 favorites]
This is really not the same thing, and it would be great if we could not derail the thread at the very start with some dismissive brocialist erasure nonsense
But... the whole thesis of the article is that corporations and marketers have appropriated the body-positivity movement in order to sell stuff, in the process destroying the social benefit that it had to offer.
I totally agree that the constant urge by some to change the topic to economics and capitalism whenever feminism and other social justice issues are brought up is a huge problem. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a meaningful intersection of capitalism and misogyny that is worth discussing, and this article really does seem to be about that.
posted by biogeo at 9:05 AM on June 5, 2018 [43 favorites]
Body positivity is being devoured by the naked-is-empowering monster and the every-woman-is-beautiful monster.
It occurred to me that there could certainly be an essay entitled "Sex Positivity is a Scam: How a movement intended to lift up women really just limits their acceptable emotions. Again." But I would have to do hell of research and be prepared for a lot of internet yelling if I wanted to get into that.
But hour after hour of "no, not for you" is mentally exhausting. God, I can't imagine it.
It really is. You block off an afternoon to go out to the stores, take piles of crap into the dressing room, and come home with one thing, maybe two, maybe fuck all, and a sense that you are hardly even a woman anymore.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:12 AM on June 5, 2018 [29 favorites]
It occurred to me that there could certainly be an essay entitled "Sex Positivity is a Scam: How a movement intended to lift up women really just limits their acceptable emotions. Again." But I would have to do hell of research and be prepared for a lot of internet yelling if I wanted to get into that.
But hour after hour of "no, not for you" is mentally exhausting. God, I can't imagine it.
It really is. You block off an afternoon to go out to the stores, take piles of crap into the dressing room, and come home with one thing, maybe two, maybe fuck all, and a sense that you are hardly even a woman anymore.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:12 AM on June 5, 2018 [29 favorites]
But that doesn't mean that there isn't a meaningful intersection of capitalism and misogyny that is worth discussing, and this article really does seem to be about that.
Yeah but the comment I was responding to wasn’t — it was just a dismissive “capitalism is a scam.” And has been noted...it’s not just capitalism at work here.
So maybe to avoid the derail I was trying to quash we could not indulge the idea that it’s really all just capitalism, man?
posted by schadenfrau at 9:16 AM on June 5, 2018 [19 favorites]
Yeah but the comment I was responding to wasn’t — it was just a dismissive “capitalism is a scam.” And has been noted...it’s not just capitalism at work here.
So maybe to avoid the derail I was trying to quash we could not indulge the idea that it’s really all just capitalism, man?
posted by schadenfrau at 9:16 AM on June 5, 2018 [19 favorites]
the urge to talk about a broad cultural problem while refusing to name a bad actor left the blame squarely on the shoulders of the women who had the temerity not to love themselves sufficiently.
Um...no? Maybe the rest of the article is right on, but not knowing whom to blame doesn't automatically mean... gah.
posted by amtho at 9:19 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Um...no? Maybe the rest of the article is right on, but not knowing whom to blame doesn't automatically mean... gah.
posted by amtho at 9:19 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Huh. What an ideal set of articles to thumb through while halfway watching the series premiere of Dietland.
Body positivity is being devoured by the naked-is-empowering monster and the every-woman-is-beautiful monster.
I can't remember if I've said it here before or not, but it fucking blows my mind (and simultaneously comes as no surprise at all) that female empowerment always seems to involve women getting naked and giving men access to their bodies in some way.
posted by palomar at 9:23 AM on June 5, 2018 [69 favorites]
Body positivity is being devoured by the naked-is-empowering monster and the every-woman-is-beautiful monster.
I can't remember if I've said it here before or not, but it fucking blows my mind (and simultaneously comes as no surprise at all) that female empowerment always seems to involve women getting naked and giving men access to their bodies in some way.
posted by palomar at 9:23 AM on June 5, 2018 [69 favorites]
Aside from being supportive of my wife's clothing decisions, encouraging her to spend money on quality/fit/materials/comfort (not to mention the time it takes to find the same and/or assisting when requested), not judging folks for what they have on or what their shape looks like (which I try, really try, not to do) or, I guess, starting a clothing line.... what can guys do to help?
Honest question because, as a person married to a lady who wears clothes, I can see that it sucks and it's not fair. I've seen it for years. Once I saw it it was like the elephant in the room. And it persists after we went from the dark years of being very, very broke to the current times of being stable if not wealthy. It's just... a mess. Vent on ladies, you have every right. If you feel like telling us other folks how to help, I'm listening.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:27 AM on June 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
Honest question because, as a person married to a lady who wears clothes, I can see that it sucks and it's not fair. I've seen it for years. Once I saw it it was like the elephant in the room. And it persists after we went from the dark years of being very, very broke to the current times of being stable if not wealthy. It's just... a mess. Vent on ladies, you have every right. If you feel like telling us other folks how to help, I'm listening.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:27 AM on June 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
I definitely remember a point in high school where I got catalogs and magazines full of teenage girls in clothes that would go up to a juniors' size 13 or 15 but they wouldn't show a single girl who was over a size 5 and that girl was considered "curvy". To add that single girl who actually wears a larger size than that... isn't much. But man, I still notice it. It's terrible that for a brand that sells an XL, even a smallish XL, to sometimes show a model wearing that size XL is still so novel, but it wasn't that long ago that we were getting told that a woman wearing a size L was unmarketably hideous and that an M was iffy unless you were very tall. I don't think anybody deserves a parade thrown for them for going this far, but at the same time, it's not nothing, because I remember what nothing felt like.
Showing people a few pictures of girls who aren't size 2s isn't going to instantly fix everything, but it feels overly dismissive to act like seeing those pictures isn't meaningful.
I do agree, however, that the frequency with which this "body positivity" thing involves fat women showing off huge amounts of skin makes me feel enormously uncomfortable. I feel like since this stuff has started, I've gotten far more messages saying that it's okay for me to wear short skirts and crop tops and bikinis than I've gotten saying that it's okay for me to have my body and dress the way I actually dress.
posted by Sequence at 9:31 AM on June 5, 2018 [20 favorites]
Showing people a few pictures of girls who aren't size 2s isn't going to instantly fix everything, but it feels overly dismissive to act like seeing those pictures isn't meaningful.
I do agree, however, that the frequency with which this "body positivity" thing involves fat women showing off huge amounts of skin makes me feel enormously uncomfortable. I feel like since this stuff has started, I've gotten far more messages saying that it's okay for me to wear short skirts and crop tops and bikinis than I've gotten saying that it's okay for me to have my body and dress the way I actually dress.
posted by Sequence at 9:31 AM on June 5, 2018 [20 favorites]
So maybe to avoid the derail I was trying to quash we could not indulge the idea that it’s really all just capitalism, man?
Alright. That wasn't my read of the comment in question (less "no but actually" and more "yes and"), but fortunately for me I don't have a lot of experience dealing with "brocialist" types, so I'll concede I may be less aware of the context.
Anyway, I hope you all know that you're all beautiful (seriously), no matter what anyone tells you, but that it's okay if you don't feel like you are sometimes. I also hope none of you need me or anyone else to tell you that, but it's also okay if you do sometimes.
posted by biogeo at 9:34 AM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Alright. That wasn't my read of the comment in question (less "no but actually" and more "yes and"), but fortunately for me I don't have a lot of experience dealing with "brocialist" types, so I'll concede I may be less aware of the context.
Anyway, I hope you all know that you're all beautiful (seriously), no matter what anyone tells you, but that it's okay if you don't feel like you are sometimes. I also hope none of you need me or anyone else to tell you that, but it's also okay if you do sometimes.
posted by biogeo at 9:34 AM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
MAKING BRAS THAT FIT YOU
Thirded. No, no they don't. They make bras in sizes that are already available in enough varieties of cut and style that most people in that range can generally find something.
Also my kingdom for a sleep shirt without some bullshit slogan on it. Slapping "SASSY" or "HOT STUFF" on them is just a reminder that society does not actually think any such thing.
posted by Karmakaze at 9:36 AM on June 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
Thirded. No, no they don't. They make bras in sizes that are already available in enough varieties of cut and style that most people in that range can generally find something.
Also my kingdom for a sleep shirt without some bullshit slogan on it. Slapping "SASSY" or "HOT STUFF" on them is just a reminder that society does not actually think any such thing.
posted by Karmakaze at 9:36 AM on June 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
Another thing that strikes me about all these pictures of "plus size" women with "rolls"...most of those women are physically fairly small. We have such a bizarre, unrealistic idea about what women's bodies look like that it never occurs to us that even relatively small women tend to have, you know, some body fat. Given enough variety of position, almost everyone will show some belly fat or cellulite, etc.
This is something that I've been particularly aware of because in addition to being sort of fat, I also have a GIANT SKELETON - even when I was younger and at my thinnest, I could never get below a 10, and I was at my thinnest for about five minutes. So back when I wore women's clothes, I'd see something on a model with a little bit of a stomach and think "aha, they will have my size, that woman has visible belly fat!" and nope, what they'd have would be a very stretchy size 12 that would only fit if you had really narrow shoulders.
Despite the fact that almost all of us have seen various women in various states of undress and therefore know that even thin women are not rock-hard and devoid of fat, we still have this narrative that the "normal" woman has no fat - even if she is "curvy" the curves are, like, not soft.
posted by Frowner at 9:37 AM on June 5, 2018 [21 favorites]
This is something that I've been particularly aware of because in addition to being sort of fat, I also have a GIANT SKELETON - even when I was younger and at my thinnest, I could never get below a 10, and I was at my thinnest for about five minutes. So back when I wore women's clothes, I'd see something on a model with a little bit of a stomach and think "aha, they will have my size, that woman has visible belly fat!" and nope, what they'd have would be a very stretchy size 12 that would only fit if you had really narrow shoulders.
Despite the fact that almost all of us have seen various women in various states of undress and therefore know that even thin women are not rock-hard and devoid of fat, we still have this narrative that the "normal" woman has no fat - even if she is "curvy" the curves are, like, not soft.
posted by Frowner at 9:37 AM on June 5, 2018 [21 favorites]
Also my kingdom for a sleep shirt without some bullshit slogan on it
THIS. Often because said sleep shirts can double as cute comfy casualwear; but said slogans and stupid graphics render them impossible to wear outside the house.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 9:38 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
THIS. Often because said sleep shirts can double as cute comfy casualwear; but said slogans and stupid graphics render them impossible to wear outside the house.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 9:38 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh I look forward to reading all these links. I love Ushshi Rahman - her instagram makes me happy.
I've been having all sorts of thoughts about this kind of thing recently, since taking on the daunting task of refreshing my wardrobe for summer.
I was reminded of this blogpost, entitled "I just want to dress like my thin friends" by fashion blogger Danielle Vanier. Really spoke to me. I don't want to be jealous of my thin friends. But boy, I feel jealous when I think how easy it seems for them to dress as the person they are, while for me, it takes exhausting amounts of research and thought, and often more money that I am prepared to spend. I've been tying myself in knots for the last few MONTHS trying to find a denim jacket that actually suits me. Tell me that's not just a plus-size thing.
For most of my life I have not been able to dress as the person I am but just in the clothes that were available. And that makes me kind of sad. I wish that clothes didn't help form my identity but they do; I feel much more comfortable when dressed in something minimalist and androgynous than I do in something floral and floaty but with my body the latter is sometimes the only thing available. I recently declared a moratorium on florals, which has actually simplified my clothes-shopping, because it cuts out an entire SWATHE of plus-size clothing from consideration.
posted by Ziggy500 at 9:41 AM on June 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
I've been having all sorts of thoughts about this kind of thing recently, since taking on the daunting task of refreshing my wardrobe for summer.
I was reminded of this blogpost, entitled "I just want to dress like my thin friends" by fashion blogger Danielle Vanier. Really spoke to me. I don't want to be jealous of my thin friends. But boy, I feel jealous when I think how easy it seems for them to dress as the person they are, while for me, it takes exhausting amounts of research and thought, and often more money that I am prepared to spend. I've been tying myself in knots for the last few MONTHS trying to find a denim jacket that actually suits me. Tell me that's not just a plus-size thing.
For most of my life I have not been able to dress as the person I am but just in the clothes that were available. And that makes me kind of sad. I wish that clothes didn't help form my identity but they do; I feel much more comfortable when dressed in something minimalist and androgynous than I do in something floral and floaty but with my body the latter is sometimes the only thing available. I recently declared a moratorium on florals, which has actually simplified my clothes-shopping, because it cuts out an entire SWATHE of plus-size clothing from consideration.
posted by Ziggy500 at 9:41 AM on June 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
Men's size medium shirt vs women's size medium shirt, same brand
This is a reason that corporate T-shirt swag is also a feminist issue, believe it or not. When the company's selling or handing out "unisex"/men's sizing shirts, female-bodied customers/employees feel alienated because the clothing doesn't fit them, and/or they're perceived as not "team players" for not wearing the team shirt. Or the women do wear the straight-cut shirts, and they're perceived as poorly groomed and unprofessional for wearing ill-fitting clothing (too tight or too baggy to encompass breasts, shoulder seams hanging down the forearm, general awkward bag look).
posted by nicebookrack at 9:43 AM on June 5, 2018 [46 favorites]
This is a reason that corporate T-shirt swag is also a feminist issue, believe it or not. When the company's selling or handing out "unisex"/men's sizing shirts, female-bodied customers/employees feel alienated because the clothing doesn't fit them, and/or they're perceived as not "team players" for not wearing the team shirt. Or the women do wear the straight-cut shirts, and they're perceived as poorly groomed and unprofessional for wearing ill-fitting clothing (too tight or too baggy to encompass breasts, shoulder seams hanging down the forearm, general awkward bag look).
posted by nicebookrack at 9:43 AM on June 5, 2018 [46 favorites]
advertising is legalized lying
(HG Wells)
posted by philip-random at 9:44 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
(HG Wells)
posted by philip-random at 9:44 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I do agree, however, that the frequency with which this "body positivity" thing involves fat women showing off huge amounts of skin makes me feel enormously uncomfortable. I feel like since this stuff has started, I've gotten far more messages saying that it's okay for me to wear short skirts and crop tops and bikinis than I've gotten saying that it's okay for me to have my body and dress the way I actually dress.
I have recently honed what I like to refer to as my 'asexual sigh'. It gets brought out a lot.
I think I blundered into a very tiny corner of instagram body positivity that is broadly free of monetization, and I also think I shall stay *right there*, especially since I've gained back some weight and been struggling with eating lately. It's unholy depressing to have something so awesome turn before I can even get to love it, and benefit from it.
posted by kalimac at 9:44 AM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have recently honed what I like to refer to as my 'asexual sigh'. It gets brought out a lot.
I think I blundered into a very tiny corner of instagram body positivity that is broadly free of monetization, and I also think I shall stay *right there*, especially since I've gained back some weight and been struggling with eating lately. It's unholy depressing to have something so awesome turn before I can even get to love it, and benefit from it.
posted by kalimac at 9:44 AM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
I grew up in a very white suburb in the south. Kim Kardashian's coloring matches mine exactly; I've been inspired to move to buy some unexpected lipstick colors after seeing how well they worked on her. I don't have any particular affection for the Kardashian clan, but sometimes I wish they were around juuuuust a few years earlier. The pop culture of my childhood: Britney, Christina Aguilera, the Olsen twins, Sarah Michelle Gellar, the OC cast. For diversity, you had Destiny's Child.
The Dove Real Beauty campaign clearly wasn't driven by altruism, and there's a bit of "doth protesting too much" about it. ("Yes, this white plus-sized supermodel is actually gorgeous!!! Yes, this black lady with perfectly symmetrical features and no wrinkles is beautiful!!") That said, it's good to expand the range of the images we see and praise. Maybe Real Beauty was a first step....good a decade ago, but embarrssing now. The Rihanna approach is better for the next step. Just be inclusive! And focus on how quality/cool/whatever your product is, instead of constantly bragging about how open-minded you are about beauty. You can have your comms teams quietly brag about your inclusive vision in puff pieces.
(But fuuuuck Third Love. Making bras for all the women suffering in a 32A bra when they need a 32A 1/2 bra are you kidding me like that's the real problem for bras.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:48 AM on June 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
The Dove Real Beauty campaign clearly wasn't driven by altruism, and there's a bit of "doth protesting too much" about it. ("Yes, this white plus-sized supermodel is actually gorgeous!!! Yes, this black lady with perfectly symmetrical features and no wrinkles is beautiful!!") That said, it's good to expand the range of the images we see and praise. Maybe Real Beauty was a first step....good a decade ago, but embarrssing now. The Rihanna approach is better for the next step. Just be inclusive! And focus on how quality/cool/whatever your product is, instead of constantly bragging about how open-minded you are about beauty. You can have your comms teams quietly brag about your inclusive vision in puff pieces.
(But fuuuuck Third Love. Making bras for all the women suffering in a 32A bra when they need a 32A 1/2 bra are you kidding me like that's the real problem for bras.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:48 AM on June 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
what can guys do to help?
Telling your guy friends and coworkersto shut the fuck up that it's not cool or funny when they make denigrating comments about women's bodies or what they wear. Guys like that won't listen to women, so other guys need to step up and tell them that they are making asses out of themselves.
posted by AFABulous at 9:58 AM on June 5, 2018 [47 favorites]
Telling your guy friends and coworkers
posted by AFABulous at 9:58 AM on June 5, 2018 [47 favorites]
For most of my life I have not been able to dress as the person I am but just in the clothes that were available. And that makes me kind of sad. I wish that clothes didn't help form my identity but they do; I feel much more comfortable when dressed in something minimalist and androgynous than I do in something floral and floaty but with my body the latter is sometimes the only thing available. I recently declared a moratorium on florals, which has actually simplified my clothes-shopping, because it cuts out an entire SWATHE of plus-size clothing from consideration.
YES THIS RIGHT HERE THANK YOU
I'm so tired of my options for clothing being either v neck t-shirts in pastel colors and extremely unflattering capri pants in olive drab, shapeless garments in gaudy prints with weird hemlines or sleeves or back cutout situations (also frequently also bedazzled to hell and back), rockabilly princess, or twee little overgrown girl. I think some of the basics from Universal Standard might be up my alley, since I'm happiest in jeans and a t-shirt that affords my decolletage some protection from the elements... but I also can't afford a wardrobe of $50 t-shirts at this time, and if I ever have to stop working remotely and start going to an office again, I don't know what I'm going to do for work clothes that don't make me sad and embarrassed.
posted by palomar at 10:04 AM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
YES THIS RIGHT HERE THANK YOU
I'm so tired of my options for clothing being either v neck t-shirts in pastel colors and extremely unflattering capri pants in olive drab, shapeless garments in gaudy prints with weird hemlines or sleeves or back cutout situations (also frequently also bedazzled to hell and back), rockabilly princess, or twee little overgrown girl. I think some of the basics from Universal Standard might be up my alley, since I'm happiest in jeans and a t-shirt that affords my decolletage some protection from the elements... but I also can't afford a wardrobe of $50 t-shirts at this time, and if I ever have to stop working remotely and start going to an office again, I don't know what I'm going to do for work clothes that don't make me sad and embarrassed.
posted by palomar at 10:04 AM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
Also a way that guys can help is to never ever comment on their daughters' or nieces' bodies and discourage moms from doing so. The most innocuous comment can stick with you forever. I still vividly remember my mom's comments about my stick legs and knobby knees and big feet and my "weak arms" when I had trouble pushing open a heavy door (I was 8). I don't believe she said those things to be mean; they were just thoughtless. I can't even imagine if I had been a chubby kid instead of a skinny one because those comments would have been indefinitely reinforced by society.
posted by AFABulous at 10:07 AM on June 5, 2018 [36 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 10:07 AM on June 5, 2018 [36 favorites]
Here's a potentially dumb question: Why isn't there at least one brand of clothing that sidesteps these issues? It seems to me that if I was building a clothing brand for women I would focus on A) clothing measured in inches or cm rather than by an ambiguous size number B) a wide variety of sizes for each piece C) pockets wherever possible.
This seems so blindingly obvious that I don't understand why it isn't the standard already. And even if misogyny and management laziness are preventing this from being the norm, it seems like there ought to be several competing online stores run by women who understand and avoid the problems of clothes shopping at retail outlets.
posted by JDHarper at 10:10 AM on June 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
This seems so blindingly obvious that I don't understand why it isn't the standard already. And even if misogyny and management laziness are preventing this from being the norm, it seems like there ought to be several competing online stores run by women who understand and avoid the problems of clothes shopping at retail outlets.
posted by JDHarper at 10:10 AM on June 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
I think you can recognize this as a function of capitalism's drive to colonize every available surface without being "brocialist." Anything hijacked by capitalism is bound to end up a distorted echo of its former self/good intentions.
posted by praemunire at 10:12 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:12 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I appreciate the work that goes into creating a style and purchasing clothes that are fashionable, and especially using thrift store finds, but implementing it just exhausts me. Lately I get away with being clothes by a semiannual cotton tees purchase and otherwise not giving a frig. However, lately I have found from a few "Women's cut" graphic tees purchases that there is massive shrinkage going on. Shirts that used to be sized as a small-medium, are now being sold as Large, and I can't believe that I should now be purchasing XL shirts so it doesn't look like I'm pregnant. I don't necessarily want a square cut tee, but "women's cut" should not equal "cotton bodysuit"!
The combination of my body type (apple, post-kid wierdness) and these shirts means wayyyyyy too many "when are you due?" questions, and I have shot back "nope, just fat" because it happens way too much. I've also decided I now need to buy the XL in anything that says "form fitting", which is sad, because how many of those shirts are being made in XXXL for the (normally) XL ladies out there?
On the other hand, last week I found black medium boyshorts swim bottoms and a pair of shorts at Target that had an acceptable fit, and could have cried because I didn't have to go to another store.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 10:14 AM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
The combination of my body type (apple, post-kid wierdness) and these shirts means wayyyyyy too many "when are you due?" questions, and I have shot back "nope, just fat" because it happens way too much. I've also decided I now need to buy the XL in anything that says "form fitting", which is sad, because how many of those shirts are being made in XXXL for the (normally) XL ladies out there?
On the other hand, last week I found black medium boyshorts swim bottoms and a pair of shorts at Target that had an acceptable fit, and could have cried because I didn't have to go to another store.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 10:14 AM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
I was just coming in to complain about the bedazzling (huge crazy studs on the collars of otherwise moderately okay shirts, stuff all over the butt, I'm thirty four years old and not interested, thank you) and also I have no idea what colors look good on me which makes me sad, but I don't particularly want to know because "does this fit well enough that I don't cry" is basically my sole criterion for purchasing clothes. I can't start thinking about stuff like what colors would flatter me because I just don't get that opportunity. Also, fuck everything about plus-sized maternity clothes, from the general unavailability to the thin fabrics to the length and cost for something I wore for six months.
I also agree with comments above that it is incredibly frustrating how basically anything that is created by women or empowers women will be coöpted in favor of the male gaze as soon as it gains any currency. Women feeling good about themselves is "sexy", you feel empowered so you wear fewer clothes, these movements are taken over by corporations like Dove to show you how you can be conventionally attractive, whatever. This happens in other context too, and it feels like whenever something is radical or revolutionary and thus threatening it gets taken over and neutered and turned into feel-good pablum that supports the status quo instead of the people who really need it.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:15 AM on June 5, 2018 [28 favorites]
I also agree with comments above that it is incredibly frustrating how basically anything that is created by women or empowers women will be coöpted in favor of the male gaze as soon as it gains any currency. Women feeling good about themselves is "sexy", you feel empowered so you wear fewer clothes, these movements are taken over by corporations like Dove to show you how you can be conventionally attractive, whatever. This happens in other context too, and it feels like whenever something is radical or revolutionary and thus threatening it gets taken over and neutered and turned into feel-good pablum that supports the status quo instead of the people who really need it.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:15 AM on June 5, 2018 [28 favorites]
I feel much more comfortable when dressed in something minimalist and androgynous than I do in something floral and floaty but with my body the latter is sometimes the only thing available. I recently declared a moratorium on florals, which has actually simplified my clothes-shopping, because it cuts out an entire SWATHE of plus-size clothing from consideration.
Having just been shopping for new work clothes (because the old clothes are getting holes) - the situation for women's trousers seems to be better than for shirts. I was at an off-brand/cheap/remaindered type store, and managed to score two pairs of women's trousers with POCKETS and 98% cotton - which was better than the mens' available (100% polyester).
But when I looked for office appropriate shirts - and I like simple, collared shirts, like a man's dress/casual shirt but, you know, with room for breasts - there was nothing. It was all t-shirt fabric, knits and sometimes some sheer polyester. Does no one make simple woven cotton shirts with collars? I need a collar, it's much better looking on me - and no Peter Pan stuff, I want sharp corners.
It's back to the thrift store for me - that's the only place I've been able to get nice, somewhat androgynous tailored stuff that I can afford.
posted by jb at 10:18 AM on June 5, 2018
Having just been shopping for new work clothes (because the old clothes are getting holes) - the situation for women's trousers seems to be better than for shirts. I was at an off-brand/cheap/remaindered type store, and managed to score two pairs of women's trousers with POCKETS and 98% cotton - which was better than the mens' available (100% polyester).
But when I looked for office appropriate shirts - and I like simple, collared shirts, like a man's dress/casual shirt but, you know, with room for breasts - there was nothing. It was all t-shirt fabric, knits and sometimes some sheer polyester. Does no one make simple woven cotton shirts with collars? I need a collar, it's much better looking on me - and no Peter Pan stuff, I want sharp corners.
It's back to the thrift store for me - that's the only place I've been able to get nice, somewhat androgynous tailored stuff that I can afford.
posted by jb at 10:18 AM on June 5, 2018
How does one put this off as "capitalism" when it is ignoring one of the seeming functions of that system by not providing goods to a considerable section of the populace, in effect turning down money from people who would spend it by not providing goods that would fit them for reasons that aren't, to me, entirely clear?
I mean I understand, from a capitalist perspective, why some boutiques or labels would opt for an aura of exclusivity, to keep "undesirables" from wearing their goods to maintain a stronger brand image, as repugnant as that may be, but if virtually no one is making or selling goods that are needed/desired by potential buyers when there would be little or no brand distortion involved in selling them, why aren't they being made or more readily available other than for reasons of physical distaste for the very idea of those potential buyers?
I've shopped at malls where no stores carried clothes for "plus size" people, not even the box stores. I can't even imagine the difficulties in finding non-"standard" sizes for many clothing items if one had to shop on a regular basis for such things. Given how much of the populace doesn't conform to "standard" size, isn't not serving them as much a failure of capitalism more than a logical outcome of it?
posted by gusottertrout at 10:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [14 favorites]
I mean I understand, from a capitalist perspective, why some boutiques or labels would opt for an aura of exclusivity, to keep "undesirables" from wearing their goods to maintain a stronger brand image, as repugnant as that may be, but if virtually no one is making or selling goods that are needed/desired by potential buyers when there would be little or no brand distortion involved in selling them, why aren't they being made or more readily available other than for reasons of physical distaste for the very idea of those potential buyers?
I've shopped at malls where no stores carried clothes for "plus size" people, not even the box stores. I can't even imagine the difficulties in finding non-"standard" sizes for many clothing items if one had to shop on a regular basis for such things. Given how much of the populace doesn't conform to "standard" size, isn't not serving them as much a failure of capitalism more than a logical outcome of it?
posted by gusottertrout at 10:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [14 favorites]
This happens in other context too, and it feels like whenever something is radical or revolutionary and thus threatening it gets taken over and neutered and turned into feel-good pablum that supports the status quo instead of the people who really need it.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl
Oh hell yes. I feel this way even about things like the women's march on Washington - how the majority of that protest (to me, anyway) should have been ANGRY, should have been a feeling of FIGHT, and so many people seemed to treat the people marching as something non-threatening, to make the event something of fun and solidarity instead of having any real purpose beyond that - or that it was reported on only as something cute. It's okay to have solidarity! Kinship with other like-minded people is something we all want, I'm not saying it's no.
It's more about the media focus and media attempts to make things like the women's march non-threatening for those who find empowered women scary (read: men in power). Same with treating any empowered woman as yet another sex symbol.
posted by agregoli at 10:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl
Oh hell yes. I feel this way even about things like the women's march on Washington - how the majority of that protest (to me, anyway) should have been ANGRY, should have been a feeling of FIGHT, and so many people seemed to treat the people marching as something non-threatening, to make the event something of fun and solidarity instead of having any real purpose beyond that - or that it was reported on only as something cute. It's okay to have solidarity! Kinship with other like-minded people is something we all want, I'm not saying it's no.
It's more about the media focus and media attempts to make things like the women's march non-threatening for those who find empowered women scary (read: men in power). Same with treating any empowered woman as yet another sex symbol.
posted by agregoli at 10:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
Here's a potentially dumb question: Why isn't there at least one brand of clothing that sidesteps these issues? It seems to me that if I was building a clothing brand for women I would focus on A) clothing measured in inches or cm rather than by an ambiguous size number B) a wide variety of sizes for each piece C) pockets wherever possible.
Jeans are pretty straightforward, and you can find plenty of women's jeans sold by waist measurement instead of nonsense sizes. There's an argument to be made that, vanity sizing aside, women's clothing has too much in the way of differing cuts to be especially useful. (And that women have a wider variance in body shape and size than men do.)
...I could also argue that, just as malls are meant to be confusing, women's clothes are meant to drive women into a spiral of self-doubt and status anxiety.
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Jeans are pretty straightforward, and you can find plenty of women's jeans sold by waist measurement instead of nonsense sizes. There's an argument to be made that, vanity sizing aside, women's clothing has too much in the way of differing cuts to be especially useful. (And that women have a wider variance in body shape and size than men do.)
...I could also argue that, just as malls are meant to be confusing, women's clothes are meant to drive women into a spiral of self-doubt and status anxiety.
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:24 AM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was just thinking, if I aggressively mind anything, it's not even the sexualization of all that skin, it's the perfect smoothness of all of it. I feel more hideous for leaving the house with bad skin than I do for leaving the house while fat. It's much like that "you're allowed to have more mass but still somehow supposed to have very little body fat" kind of thing--we've been adding one very, very narrow extra range of extra acceptability, but bad skin or body hair or whatever are still not just "not beautiful" but "not allowed to exist in the public sphere". I don't care about being perceived as beautiful, but I do care about being perceived as allowed to exist.
posted by Sequence at 10:25 AM on June 5, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 10:25 AM on June 5, 2018 [25 favorites]
... and to follow up, I like how I look! I like that my body can do stuff, and while the post-kid weirdness is annoying, I like my kid and the stuff I do with them. I'd just also like the things I wear over my body to not actively fight me while I do stuff.
I have also tried to find work blouses, because clearly people buy those things, but it's too tiring to hunt them down. Back to the cotton tees and occasional button down!
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 10:26 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have also tried to find work blouses, because clearly people buy those things, but it's too tiring to hunt them down. Back to the cotton tees and occasional button down!
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 10:26 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Bras were a huge issue for me when I was an A cup because apparently if you have that little boobage the only styles available are super mega push-up or training bra. Just because I had no boobs didn't mean I wanted fake ones.
I wore one of the super padded bras once and kept accidentally bumping my bra with my arm because I wasn't used to having something in that space.
posted by Kris10_b at 10:46 AM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
I wore one of the super padded bras once and kept accidentally bumping my bra with my arm because I wasn't used to having something in that space.
posted by Kris10_b at 10:46 AM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
The sexual attractiveness hierarchy is a cruel thing in any culture, and while I agree it's a derail to make this a general complaint about capitalism, I nonetheless agree that under capitalism it gets exploited so expertly as to be intolerable.
I am unconvinced by the FPP article that "body positivity" is the problem. It is, however, insufficient to make such marketing morally acceptable. Selling things by telling people, usually women, "this person is beautiful, looking like them is good" is a surefire way to make people insecure and self-judgmental, no matter how body-positively it is spun. This is not a small transgression. It is a manipulative brainhack that cultivates shame and self-loathing.
I hope one day regulation or ethical standards evolve such that this sort of marketing is no longer prominent. Most cultures agree that public display of genitalia or sex acts is beyond the pale. I am inclined to say that sexual attractiveness as a prominent theme should be too, particularly in ads. Not because it is dirty or sinful, but because it is intimate and sensitive.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:48 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am unconvinced by the FPP article that "body positivity" is the problem. It is, however, insufficient to make such marketing morally acceptable. Selling things by telling people, usually women, "this person is beautiful, looking like them is good" is a surefire way to make people insecure and self-judgmental, no matter how body-positively it is spun. This is not a small transgression. It is a manipulative brainhack that cultivates shame and self-loathing.
I hope one day regulation or ethical standards evolve such that this sort of marketing is no longer prominent. Most cultures agree that public display of genitalia or sex acts is beyond the pale. I am inclined to say that sexual attractiveness as a prominent theme should be too, particularly in ads. Not because it is dirty or sinful, but because it is intimate and sensitive.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:48 AM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am really looking forward to reading the rest of the articles in this series. The first article linked below the fold (When Brands Use Plus-Size Models and Don’t Make Plus-Size Clothes) is the first place I've really seen the trend that it describes discussed in any detail, and it totally squares with my sense of how the specific brands that it calls out (Everlane, Madewell) have been successful in marketing themselves to younger women in the arts/nonprofit/cultural organizations where I spend most of my time, even though not a single one of them wears plus-size clothing:
posted by Anita Bath at 11:04 AM on June 5, 2018 [26 favorites]
The idea of size appropriation addresses the fact that the sanitized, “safe” images of curvier-than-average models jumping, running, and posing in various states of undress that populate your Instagram feed and clog your inbox are not created for the plus-size consumer whom these brands do not serve. Rather, they are created for normatively sized consumers who get to enjoy the moral satisfaction of patronizing brands that outwardly seem to fit their liberal worldview. (emphasis mine)The author, Lauren Downing Peters, has written an enormous amount on the history of plus-size fashion and her dissertation, on the history of "stoutwear", is available online. I'm excited to read it! Thank you for posting about this series, everybody had matching towels.
posted by Anita Bath at 11:04 AM on June 5, 2018 [26 favorites]
But hour after hour of "no, not for you" is mentally exhausting. God, I can't imagine it.
It really is. You block off an afternoon to go out to the stores, take piles of crap into the dressing room, and come home with one thing, maybe two, maybe fuck all, and a sense that you are hardly even a woman anymore.
Couldn't agree more - and I'm *within* the range of sizes that are typically offered! I can only imagine how much worse the horror show of dread, exhaustion and dismay gets.
I am both baffled and vaguely jealous of those who genuinely enjoy clothes shopping. I genuinely enjoy going to the dentist more. At least then I feel all virtuous and that I've done something good for my body when I'm done.
posted by dendritejungle at 11:31 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
It really is. You block off an afternoon to go out to the stores, take piles of crap into the dressing room, and come home with one thing, maybe two, maybe fuck all, and a sense that you are hardly even a woman anymore.
Couldn't agree more - and I'm *within* the range of sizes that are typically offered! I can only imagine how much worse the horror show of dread, exhaustion and dismay gets.
I am both baffled and vaguely jealous of those who genuinely enjoy clothes shopping. I genuinely enjoy going to the dentist more. At least then I feel all virtuous and that I've done something good for my body when I'm done.
posted by dendritejungle at 11:31 AM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Regarding bras: it's not even just the limited sizes in general, but they also make annoying assumptions about what band sizes go with what cup sizes.
posted by inconstant at 11:44 AM on June 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 11:44 AM on June 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
Honestly, I've just given up. For me, I am able to "opt out" and avoid negative attention by using cloth medical tape instead (note: I do not mean binding and I do not mean bandages, do not bind with bandages, that is unsafe), but for someone who genuinely needs the support, what are the options even.
posted by inconstant at 11:47 AM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 11:47 AM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
For 'dressing with aggressive weirdness', I found thrift stores to be really useful.
Apparently I've taken this to the next level. The "stage/DJ" outfit of all black everything save hot pink laces was almost entirely free stuff I've collected over the last year from free boxes and stuff. Including the hot pink laces and matching hair ties. The only thing I bought was the belt, and that was like three bucks at a thrift store.
It was also a huge step into/out of my comfort zones, considering everything but the belt and shoes were technically women's wear. Also, I'm embarrassed at how many times I lost my damn wallet that night because my slacks didn't have pockets.
But, yeah, I seem to be finding a niche of "obviously weird, queer or queerdo, but a little preppy and outdoorsy. I'm increasingly fond of high quality wool. It's perfect for my active high energy and often outdoors life, looks good for ages, breathes, and keeps the rain and sun off somehow at the same time.
posted by loquacious at 11:52 AM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Apparently I've taken this to the next level. The "stage/DJ" outfit of all black everything save hot pink laces was almost entirely free stuff I've collected over the last year from free boxes and stuff. Including the hot pink laces and matching hair ties. The only thing I bought was the belt, and that was like three bucks at a thrift store.
It was also a huge step into/out of my comfort zones, considering everything but the belt and shoes were technically women's wear. Also, I'm embarrassed at how many times I lost my damn wallet that night because my slacks didn't have pockets.
But, yeah, I seem to be finding a niche of "obviously weird, queer or queerdo, but a little preppy and outdoorsy. I'm increasingly fond of high quality wool. It's perfect for my active high energy and often outdoors life, looks good for ages, breathes, and keeps the rain and sun off somehow at the same time.
posted by loquacious at 11:52 AM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
MAKING BRAS THAT FIT YOU
Man, it's taken almost 30 years of bra wearing, but I finally found two that fit and support from Penningtons. I didn't know bras could be this comfortable.
posted by Calzephyr at 12:04 PM on June 5, 2018
but for someone who genuinely needs the support, what are the options even
Sports bras all day every day and even then they don’t really fit and eventually you have to tear them off with a primal sort of scream
posted by schadenfrau at 12:06 PM on June 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
Sports bras all day every day and even then they don’t really fit and eventually you have to tear them off with a primal sort of scream
posted by schadenfrau at 12:06 PM on June 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm not a woman, but I am a very physically large man so I too know the pain of being totally unable to walk into a store and buy clothes. "Big and Tall" invariably means "Big OR Tall" so it's a constant struggle. Stores simply don't carry 44x36 pants, and 2XLT shirts are like precious gems so I usually end up resorting to 3XL which still billow around me like a tent. Maybe thrift shopping is a solution for some of you, but I'm afraid there just aren't enough people as big as me out there to expect they've donated clothes my size.
It would only be worse if I had to face the additional social pressures women face. Nobody expects me to be fashionable; I don't have to face scorn for daring to be unattractive. Also, I don't think my wife has ever worn a bra that is the actual right size for her. We've tried a lot of different techniques for bra-sizing and none of them ever give good results so she's left to accept good enough.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:07 PM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
It would only be worse if I had to face the additional social pressures women face. Nobody expects me to be fashionable; I don't have to face scorn for daring to be unattractive. Also, I don't think my wife has ever worn a bra that is the actual right size for her. We've tried a lot of different techniques for bra-sizing and none of them ever give good results so she's left to accept good enough.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:07 PM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
Here's a potentially dumb question: Why isn't there at least one brand of clothing that sidesteps these issues? It seems to me that if I was building a clothing brand for women I would focus on A) clothing measured in inches or cm rather than by an ambiguous size number B) a wide variety of sizes for each piece C) pockets wherever possible.
eShakti has a fairly low customization fee, which allows you to get clothing made to your exact measurements, and yes, add in pockets if you want them. It's fantastic.
posted by damayanti at 12:10 PM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
eShakti has a fairly low customization fee, which allows you to get clothing made to your exact measurements, and yes, add in pockets if you want them. It's fantastic.
posted by damayanti at 12:10 PM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
Yesssssss nicebookrack! I could not have favorited that harder. I am always stressed by school events for my kids that have tee shirts. I'll volunteer, but do I have to also volunteer in the most unflattering tee shirt possible? Also, my 9 year old is in a girls' 5K twice a year and needs a running buddy. So I get to wear work out clothes that make me feel self-conscious with a giant, square, unflattering race tee shirt and then obviously be way too slow and out of shape to keep up with the nine year olds. The semi annual "YES I AM 45 AND SLOW AND FAT" 5K. So empowering.
I only work 2 days a week in an office and some from home, and whenever I think that I need to get a real job, the thought of having five acceptable work outfits each week paralyzes me.
posted by artychoke at 12:19 PM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
I only work 2 days a week in an office and some from home, and whenever I think that I need to get a real job, the thought of having five acceptable work outfits each week paralyzes me.
posted by artychoke at 12:19 PM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
There's an argument to be made that, vanity sizing aside, women's clothing has too much in the way of differing cuts to be especially useful. (And that women have a wider variance in body shape and size than men do.)
My partner is a man. He can never find clothes that fit him. He's just as frustrated as the average woman is when clothes shopping, as none of the clothes are cut to fit him. He's not plus-sized, just differently proportioned than whatever 'average' the manufacturers are assuming. And there is even less variety in men's clothes than in women's - he can't opt for a skirt, for example, when none of the trousers fit (at least, not without some gender dysphoria).
I think men may be under a (bit) less pressure to look a certain way, there seems to be more plus size clothing available (but not short-legged clothes), and certainly find t-shirts easier to fit (though he looks awful in t-shirts and never wears them except as pajamas). But they come in many different shapes and sizes and can find it as hard to shop as many women do.
posted by jb at 12:19 PM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
My partner is a man. He can never find clothes that fit him. He's just as frustrated as the average woman is when clothes shopping, as none of the clothes are cut to fit him. He's not plus-sized, just differently proportioned than whatever 'average' the manufacturers are assuming. And there is even less variety in men's clothes than in women's - he can't opt for a skirt, for example, when none of the trousers fit (at least, not without some gender dysphoria).
I think men may be under a (bit) less pressure to look a certain way, there seems to be more plus size clothing available (but not short-legged clothes), and certainly find t-shirts easier to fit (though he looks awful in t-shirts and never wears them except as pajamas). But they come in many different shapes and sizes and can find it as hard to shop as many women do.
posted by jb at 12:19 PM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
How does one put this off as "capitalism" when it is ignoring one of the seeming functions of that system by not providing goods to a considerable section of the populace, in effect turning down money from people who would spend it by not providing goods that would fit them for reasons that aren't, to me, entirely clear?
I'm not sure what you mean by "putting it off," as if ascribing a dynamic to capitalism means there can be no other causes, or as if it means that it is natural or acceptable. I don't think either of those are true. But, as the article shows, Dove has expertly exploited this dynamic to make money. In the realm of the actual clothes, well, capitalism knows how to make money off your anxiety and feeling of exclusion, too--and the flip side, the feeling of exclusivity that that engenders in those on the "right" side of the line. A "body positivity" movement that actually straight-up rejected present-day norms, or, even more dangerously, the right of the industry to set norms altogether, would slaughter the present-day industry, so of course it gets sanitized and rendered anodyne.
I say this as someone who's never been further than flirting distance from the plus-size line her whole life: In the U.S., fat people are on average poorer. Clothing for fat people costs more to make, if you want it to fit right--you use more material and you can't have those darned "box tees," you have to tailor. So you're looking at lower margins. Mass-market fashion has gone less and less tailored over the past twenty years, as "fast fashion" demands immediate production out of some factory in China. You can see this clearly in regular-size clothing (honestly, I can't believe how little tailoring Everlane gets away with). So you're talking about countering the industry's massive trend towards disposable clothes made with minimal effort. Clothing lines can still make plenty of money off fat people with more money by selling them shoes, accessories, makeup, and perfume, which are real moneymakers. Step into a Sephora some time and notice how many brands are actually the equivalent of diffusion lines for higher-end clothing lines. Add in the "fat cooties," and...A market that responds to irrational preferences held by enough people is often not a failed market. This is one of the major reasons that the free market frequently does not serve to defeat prejudice, as people used to innocently believe it might, but instead amplifies it.
posted by praemunire at 12:33 PM on June 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
I'm not sure what you mean by "putting it off," as if ascribing a dynamic to capitalism means there can be no other causes, or as if it means that it is natural or acceptable. I don't think either of those are true. But, as the article shows, Dove has expertly exploited this dynamic to make money. In the realm of the actual clothes, well, capitalism knows how to make money off your anxiety and feeling of exclusion, too--and the flip side, the feeling of exclusivity that that engenders in those on the "right" side of the line. A "body positivity" movement that actually straight-up rejected present-day norms, or, even more dangerously, the right of the industry to set norms altogether, would slaughter the present-day industry, so of course it gets sanitized and rendered anodyne.
I say this as someone who's never been further than flirting distance from the plus-size line her whole life: In the U.S., fat people are on average poorer. Clothing for fat people costs more to make, if you want it to fit right--you use more material and you can't have those darned "box tees," you have to tailor. So you're looking at lower margins. Mass-market fashion has gone less and less tailored over the past twenty years, as "fast fashion" demands immediate production out of some factory in China. You can see this clearly in regular-size clothing (honestly, I can't believe how little tailoring Everlane gets away with). So you're talking about countering the industry's massive trend towards disposable clothes made with minimal effort. Clothing lines can still make plenty of money off fat people with more money by selling them shoes, accessories, makeup, and perfume, which are real moneymakers. Step into a Sephora some time and notice how many brands are actually the equivalent of diffusion lines for higher-end clothing lines. Add in the "fat cooties," and...A market that responds to irrational preferences held by enough people is often not a failed market. This is one of the major reasons that the free market frequently does not serve to defeat prejudice, as people used to innocently believe it might, but instead amplifies it.
posted by praemunire at 12:33 PM on June 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
How does one put this off as "capitalism" when it is ignoring one of the seeming functions of that system by not providing goods to a considerable section of the populace, in effect turning down money from people who would spend it by not providing goods that would fit them for reasons that aren't, to me, entirely clear?
The money isn't in giving you what you want, it's in making you want things you can't have.
posted by klanawa at 12:37 PM on June 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
The money isn't in giving you what you want, it's in making you want things you can't have.
posted by klanawa at 12:37 PM on June 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
In re men's clothes versus women's: A profound difference is the idea that bigger women don't get to wear the same types of clothes as smaller ones, that bigger women's clothes should universally be louder with more cut-outs and bedazzling. There are quality and style differences between smaller and larger men's clothing lines, but they are not nearly as pronounced and the differences start at a different size point.
I wear a men's XL in shirts, for instance, or an XXL if the cut is skinny. My best friend wears a small or a medium. My partner wears the smaller end of big and tall sizes. We can all find basically the same styles from mass market retailers at basically the same quality and price-point. This was never, ever true of me and my friends who wore women's clothes back in the day.
There are certainly challenges to finding smaller sizes, taller sizes and big and tall sizes in men's clothing but the whole "I wish that I could find plus size styles that are basically the same as non-plus size styles, but I get stuck with bedazzled polyester florals" thing doesn't happen.
posted by Frowner at 12:37 PM on June 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
I wear a men's XL in shirts, for instance, or an XXL if the cut is skinny. My best friend wears a small or a medium. My partner wears the smaller end of big and tall sizes. We can all find basically the same styles from mass market retailers at basically the same quality and price-point. This was never, ever true of me and my friends who wore women's clothes back in the day.
There are certainly challenges to finding smaller sizes, taller sizes and big and tall sizes in men's clothing but the whole "I wish that I could find plus size styles that are basically the same as non-plus size styles, but I get stuck with bedazzled polyester florals" thing doesn't happen.
posted by Frowner at 12:37 PM on June 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
This is one of the major reasons that the free market frequently does not serve to defeat prejudice, as people used to innocently believe it might, but instead amplifies it.
Right, that's sort of what I was trying to suggest, where prejudice and stereotyping informs the market actions rather than it being only a product of capitalism, which is what I took as a possible meaning of the earlier comments. It seemed to me the logic is more fitting to prejudice and stereotyping than "just" capitalism. Where the bias against those who don't fit the accepted aesthetic informs a circular reasoning for the deficit of options.
Why isn't there more clothing options for "fat" people?
Because they don't care about their looks.
How do you know?
They're fat.
But they still have to buy clothes...
Have you seen what they wear? They don't care about fashion.
But they don't have the same choices as standard sized people since clothes aren't marketed to them.
Who wants to see marketing for fat people? Ugh. No one would want that advertising.
So how are they supposed to buy better clothing if no one makes and markets to them?
Get thin.
And so on.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:49 PM on June 5, 2018 [20 favorites]
Right, that's sort of what I was trying to suggest, where prejudice and stereotyping informs the market actions rather than it being only a product of capitalism, which is what I took as a possible meaning of the earlier comments. It seemed to me the logic is more fitting to prejudice and stereotyping than "just" capitalism. Where the bias against those who don't fit the accepted aesthetic informs a circular reasoning for the deficit of options.
Why isn't there more clothing options for "fat" people?
Because they don't care about their looks.
How do you know?
They're fat.
But they still have to buy clothes...
Have you seen what they wear? They don't care about fashion.
But they don't have the same choices as standard sized people since clothes aren't marketed to them.
Who wants to see marketing for fat people? Ugh. No one would want that advertising.
So how are they supposed to buy better clothing if no one makes and markets to them?
Get thin.
And so on.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:49 PM on June 5, 2018 [20 favorites]
Jeans are pretty straightforward, and you can find plenty of women's jeans sold by waist measurement instead of nonsense sizes. There's an argument to be made that, vanity sizing aside, women's clothing has too much in the way of differing cuts to be especially useful. (And that women have a wider variance in body shape and size than men do.)
This is, of course, badly amplified by the simple fact that women's clothing is invariably designed to fit much more tightly than men's clothing. Things like nonfunctional pockets--they'd break up the ~silhouette~ of that ass, and we can't be having that, can we?--and stretchy, thin, non-durable fabrics are part of the same godawful problem.
The problem with tightly-fitting clothing, of course, is that smaller fluctuations in size and shape become immediately much more evident, both in looks and in feel: tight places stretch the fabric, drawing the eye to the larger parts of the body, and they restrict movement and chafe while they're at it. Too-loose clothing that is supposed to fit tightly is almost as bad--I don't know about you, but the extra fabric often chafes my inner thighs or hangs awkwardly from places it isn't meant to.
So while men's bodies probably do differ almost as much as women's bodies do, the problem of fit becomes much worse because of structural issues in women's fashion.
posted by sciatrix at 1:04 PM on June 5, 2018 [32 favorites]
This is, of course, badly amplified by the simple fact that women's clothing is invariably designed to fit much more tightly than men's clothing. Things like nonfunctional pockets--they'd break up the ~silhouette~ of that ass, and we can't be having that, can we?--and stretchy, thin, non-durable fabrics are part of the same godawful problem.
The problem with tightly-fitting clothing, of course, is that smaller fluctuations in size and shape become immediately much more evident, both in looks and in feel: tight places stretch the fabric, drawing the eye to the larger parts of the body, and they restrict movement and chafe while they're at it. Too-loose clothing that is supposed to fit tightly is almost as bad--I don't know about you, but the extra fabric often chafes my inner thighs or hangs awkwardly from places it isn't meant to.
So while men's bodies probably do differ almost as much as women's bodies do, the problem of fit becomes much worse because of structural issues in women's fashion.
posted by sciatrix at 1:04 PM on June 5, 2018 [32 favorites]
glad to see that this otherwise tiresomely frequent discussion of the problems in women's fashion has been correctly turned to a far more important and valuable discussion of the problems in men's fashion.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:32 PM on June 5, 2018 [40 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 1:32 PM on June 5, 2018 [40 favorites]
The whole thing is so frustrating. On one hand.. a company is going to do what it can to make money. Yet there ARE some companies that are taking steps in the right direction. For example I hear good things about Modcloth being supportive and inclusive and they have a large size range - sometimes from xxs to 4x.
Then there's things like Dove, where they're barely expanding beyond model-white-women in the ads and somehow it's progress.
It's trying to find the balance of a company not only doing it for their bottom line but because they genuinely want to support people. It's about not using these barely marginalized bodies as a token or having one person with stretch marks to get the sales rolling in.
And even WITHIN body positive (not self love) communities there's confusion about what is tokenization. For example someone I was following - an invisibly disabled white woman - called out ASOS for using Mama Caxx in an activewear ad as being "inspiration porn" despite not even knowing who she was. When Cax responded, this woman stood by her stance that somehow ASOS was taking advantage of a disabled body. Despite the fact that Cax is a disabled activist and model.
So, where do we fit in all that? Where is the line between taking advantage of a body and being accepting of bodies. How is the right way for marginalized bodies to be represented? Clearly Dove saying beautiful women ARE beautiful buy our products doesn't cut it, but what does?
At the same time, it feels media has to start SOMEWHERE. I know my own self-love and body activist journeys started with really small steps - like that I didn't have to wear makeup or it's okay to talk about being disabled. Some people scoff at that, but it was a BIG step for me to even identify as disabled, let alone start pushing back on any sort of ablism. It's something I literally didn't know how to think about or deal with until finding others. So maybe women hearing they are beautiful, even if a shitty marketing way, is better than hearing they aren't good enough all the time? Maybe as more companies try to use us to get money other companies will shine through with the right way or more bodies will slowly become more accepted. Obviously, we should call out shitty companies and support better ones regardless.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:34 PM on June 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
Then there's things like Dove, where they're barely expanding beyond model-white-women in the ads and somehow it's progress.
It's trying to find the balance of a company not only doing it for their bottom line but because they genuinely want to support people. It's about not using these barely marginalized bodies as a token or having one person with stretch marks to get the sales rolling in.
And even WITHIN body positive (not self love) communities there's confusion about what is tokenization. For example someone I was following - an invisibly disabled white woman - called out ASOS for using Mama Caxx in an activewear ad as being "inspiration porn" despite not even knowing who she was. When Cax responded, this woman stood by her stance that somehow ASOS was taking advantage of a disabled body. Despite the fact that Cax is a disabled activist and model.
So, where do we fit in all that? Where is the line between taking advantage of a body and being accepting of bodies. How is the right way for marginalized bodies to be represented? Clearly Dove saying beautiful women ARE beautiful buy our products doesn't cut it, but what does?
At the same time, it feels media has to start SOMEWHERE. I know my own self-love and body activist journeys started with really small steps - like that I didn't have to wear makeup or it's okay to talk about being disabled. Some people scoff at that, but it was a BIG step for me to even identify as disabled, let alone start pushing back on any sort of ablism. It's something I literally didn't know how to think about or deal with until finding others. So maybe women hearing they are beautiful, even if a shitty marketing way, is better than hearing they aren't good enough all the time? Maybe as more companies try to use us to get money other companies will shine through with the right way or more bodies will slowly become more accepted. Obviously, we should call out shitty companies and support better ones regardless.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:34 PM on June 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Couple deleted; if you're not interested in or affected by this issue re: plus size women's clothes or the related marketing campaign, feel free to skip this thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:46 PM on June 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:46 PM on June 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
Modcloth is now owned by Walmart tho, and I hear the quality has dropped. :(
posted by agregoli at 1:52 PM on June 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 1:52 PM on June 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
It seemed to me the logic is more fitting to prejudice and stereotyping than "just" capitalism.
No reason the two of them can't work together.
posted by praemunire at 1:57 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
No reason the two of them can't work together.
posted by praemunire at 1:57 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Here's a potentially dumb question: Why isn't there at least one brand of clothing that sidesteps these issues? It seems to me that if I was building a clothing brand for women I would focus on A) clothing measured in inches or cm rather than by an ambiguous size number B) a wide variety of sizes for each piece C) pockets wherever possible.
Accurate sizing is disencentivized because you buy more clothes if you never know if they're going to fit. Online shopping doesn't help (sure, you can return them, but lots of people don't).
posted by dilaudid at 2:21 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Accurate sizing is disencentivized because you buy more clothes if you never know if they're going to fit. Online shopping doesn't help (sure, you can return them, but lots of people don't).
posted by dilaudid at 2:21 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
If I had infinite dollars I would start my dream of a bra company that sold cups and bands separately. In hundreds of colors and patterns. You could mix and match if you were a little lopsided, or had a mastectomy. You could carry cup sizes up to the biggest needed or down to practically flat. You could carry cups that hold prosthetics. Nursing cups with fasteners. Padded, non, lacy, whatever.
You could carry straps that had padding, were racerback, thick, thin, fancy, plain, polkadot.
Women come in, they try on the straps, then they try on the cups that fasten into them (admittedly the hardest part to design) they walk out with custom-sized bras.
It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to do, but no one with money has done it and I don't have money to do it.
posted by emjaybee at 2:23 PM on June 5, 2018 [28 favorites]
You could carry straps that had padding, were racerback, thick, thin, fancy, plain, polkadot.
Women come in, they try on the straps, then they try on the cups that fasten into them (admittedly the hardest part to design) they walk out with custom-sized bras.
It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to do, but no one with money has done it and I don't have money to do it.
posted by emjaybee at 2:23 PM on June 5, 2018 [28 favorites]
outfit types that are widely available for plus-size women:
1. office mom
2. super sparkle time
3. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE A WOMAN WHO LOVES GARFIELD AND WAS BORN IN AUGUST
posted by Countess Elena at 2:31 PM on June 5, 2018 [46 favorites]
1. office mom
2. super sparkle time
3. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE A WOMAN WHO LOVES GARFIELD AND WAS BORN IN AUGUST
posted by Countess Elena at 2:31 PM on June 5, 2018 [46 favorites]
^ emjaybee amplify this send it to all bra companies on twitter or something, someone listen!!!
posted by agregoli at 2:31 PM on June 5, 2018
posted by agregoli at 2:31 PM on June 5, 2018
And the next ad campaign will feature women talking about the issues they have with the bodies that the last campaign assured them were truly beautiful. Of course, that ad will only run if it sells products because the ad industry isn't in business to promote anyone's self esteem or emotional health.
While I am sorry for those who feel victims of the ad culture and I truly hope they get help and support, I am infuriated by the notion that women in general lack the wherewithal to filter out messages from sources with an agenda.
posted by she's not there at 2:31 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
While I am sorry for those who feel victims of the ad culture and I truly hope they get help and support, I am infuriated by the notion that women in general lack the wherewithal to filter out messages from sources with an agenda.
posted by she's not there at 2:31 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
That's a cool idea. How much work is normally required to do the final stitching to attach cup to band? Could this be done by a salesperson or a machine at the retail store, so that even fasteners aren't needed?
posted by biogeo at 2:33 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 2:33 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also my kingdom for a sleep shirt without some bullshit slogan on it. Slapping "SASSY" or "HOT STUFF" on them is just a reminder that society does not actually think any such thing.
I have one I bought in Kenya that says "MUZUNGU" (which I gather basically means foreigner/white person in Swahili) that cracked me up so hard. Just in case no-one can tell my skin colour by looking at, y'know, my pasty-ass skin. I feel like it should say, "danger!" or "clueless tourist ahoy!" as well. It's also ridiculously soft. By far my favourite nightshirt.
posted by dendritejungle at 2:33 PM on June 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
I have one I bought in Kenya that says "MUZUNGU" (which I gather basically means foreigner/white person in Swahili) that cracked me up so hard. Just in case no-one can tell my skin colour by looking at, y'know, my pasty-ass skin. I feel like it should say, "danger!" or "clueless tourist ahoy!" as well. It's also ridiculously soft. By far my favourite nightshirt.
posted by dendritejungle at 2:33 PM on June 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
If anyone reading this is in Cincinnati, there's an amazing "anti-fashion bootcamp" artspace thingamajig going on right now through July that has been blowing my mind and is fun AF. Basically it's questioning all the tenets of the fashion industry, inviting local folks to come in and take a photo shoot (literally everyone from high schoolers to Serious Art School Students to neighborhood guys walking the dog were there this weekend) and I strongly recommend it.
posted by mostly vowels at 3:39 PM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by mostly vowels at 3:39 PM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think this campaign came from an earnest but uncritical place (somewhat unsurprised to hear it was born in Toronto, not sure why). But this is what happens when people frame things in terms of liberal individualism, vs through a systemic lens. Mind you, not sure an ad campaign aiming to be effective (at selling things, to individuals) could or should have a systemic ambition.
Jockey sports bras FTW
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:40 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Jockey sports bras FTW
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:40 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Accurate sizing is disencentivized because you buy more clothes if you never know if they're going to fit.
And yet male clothing does not have the same problem with wildly disparate sizing that female clothing does. It's almost like there's something at play here other than the pure, rational logic of capitalism.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:03 PM on June 5, 2018 [12 favorites]
And yet male clothing does not have the same problem with wildly disparate sizing that female clothing does. It's almost like there's something at play here other than the pure, rational logic of capitalism.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:03 PM on June 5, 2018 [12 favorites]
> I hope you all know that you're all beautiful (seriously)
Some of us aren't! Most of us are kinda whatever. Some of us are downright ugly! And yet we are all worthy.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:38 PM on June 5, 2018 [48 favorites]
Some of us aren't! Most of us are kinda whatever. Some of us are downright ugly! And yet we are all worthy.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:38 PM on June 5, 2018 [48 favorites]
And yet male clothing does not have the same problem with wildly disparate sizing that female clothing does.
Not to derail, but I gather that it increasingly does. The Patriarchy has never seen an uneven bar that couldn't be lowered for everyone.
posted by Lexica at 6:54 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Not to derail, but I gather that it increasingly does. The Patriarchy has never seen an uneven bar that couldn't be lowered for everyone.
posted by Lexica at 6:54 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
I hope you all know that you're all beautiful (seriously)
Some of us aren't! Most of us are kinda whatever.
Oh, this last bit, The corpse in the library! Like. It's okay if I am not beautiful. I'm not decoration, and my aesthetic appeal is perhaps the least interesting thing about me.
Much of my rage with clothes shopping, in fact, builds because I want to have access to clothing that is functional rather than decorative. Beauty is not my priority. There are folks for whom it is, and they get to do them--but I have things about me that I value more, and it is frankly weird seeing people who hear me say matter-of-fatly "I am not beautiful" and rush to reassure me that I totally am.
posted by sciatrix at 7:25 PM on June 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
Some of us aren't! Most of us are kinda whatever.
Oh, this last bit, The corpse in the library! Like. It's okay if I am not beautiful. I'm not decoration, and my aesthetic appeal is perhaps the least interesting thing about me.
Much of my rage with clothes shopping, in fact, builds because I want to have access to clothing that is functional rather than decorative. Beauty is not my priority. There are folks for whom it is, and they get to do them--but I have things about me that I value more, and it is frankly weird seeing people who hear me say matter-of-fatly "I am not beautiful" and rush to reassure me that I totally am.
posted by sciatrix at 7:25 PM on June 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
Some of us aren't! Most of us are kinda whatever. Some of us are downright ugly!.
Beauty is subjective, so I can't say that you're wrong. My personal experience, which may not be shared by others, is that beauty is everywhere, it is complex and nuanced, and it is not something which can be ranked. If you are comfortable with feeling about yourself that your appearance is kinda whatever, or downright ugly, that is fantastic. I genuinely wish I had that level of self-confidence. Me, I feel doughy and unattractive a lot of the time, and it took many years of being with my wonderful wife before that stopped bothering me on a regular basis, and I'm well aware how many fewer messages I receive as a man from my acculturation that tell me my value is bound in my appearance.
For the people though who feel that they are not beautiful, and it pains them, I just wish they could see in themselves what I, and I think lots of others, see. The strict messages about what is and is not beautiful in the human form that our society offers us are not universally shared. I'm not even sure they're really shared by most people.
posted by biogeo at 8:05 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Beauty is subjective, so I can't say that you're wrong. My personal experience, which may not be shared by others, is that beauty is everywhere, it is complex and nuanced, and it is not something which can be ranked. If you are comfortable with feeling about yourself that your appearance is kinda whatever, or downright ugly, that is fantastic. I genuinely wish I had that level of self-confidence. Me, I feel doughy and unattractive a lot of the time, and it took many years of being with my wonderful wife before that stopped bothering me on a regular basis, and I'm well aware how many fewer messages I receive as a man from my acculturation that tell me my value is bound in my appearance.
For the people though who feel that they are not beautiful, and it pains them, I just wish they could see in themselves what I, and I think lots of others, see. The strict messages about what is and is not beautiful in the human form that our society offers us are not universally shared. I'm not even sure they're really shared by most people.
posted by biogeo at 8:05 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Anecdata point talking about "different shapes and sizes": I love the look of a lot of clothing from the plus-size chain Ashley Stewart. But I'm wary of buying from their website because there is no way for average fat women to look this uniformly smooth in fitted clothing without shapewear, and I hate wearing Spanx.
The popular plus-sized aesthetic is for "curvy," which means thick but pleasantly smooth, non-stretchmarked women who are uniformly round all over, without a fat roll in sight. So for many plus-size shoppers without evenly-deposited fat stores, your already-limited plus size retail options are narrowed even more by the clothes in your size that still won't fit as designed unless you smooth your body out like a sausage casing first.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:06 PM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
The popular plus-sized aesthetic is for "curvy," which means thick but pleasantly smooth, non-stretchmarked women who are uniformly round all over, without a fat roll in sight. So for many plus-size shoppers without evenly-deposited fat stores, your already-limited plus size retail options are narrowed even more by the clothes in your size that still won't fit as designed unless you smooth your body out like a sausage casing first.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:06 PM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
what can guys do to help?
Honest question because, as a person married to a lady who wears clothes, I can see that it sucks and it's not fair.
1) As mentioned, never make disparaging remarks about a woman's shape - any woman, any age or shape.
2) Compliment fat women's clothing choices, in ways appropriate to the setting. At work, keep it entirely non-sexual - "that's an awesome shirt" or "that scarf looks warm; you must be cozy" or whatever's appropriate.
3) When spending time with other guys, point out good-looking fat women. "That lady in the purple jogging suit can move!" for casual discussions; "check out the one in the gold sequins!" watching a movie dance club scene. Help them get used to the idea that women with larger than 32" waists are still people and some guys even find them attractive.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:07 PM on June 5, 2018
Honest question because, as a person married to a lady who wears clothes, I can see that it sucks and it's not fair.
1) As mentioned, never make disparaging remarks about a woman's shape - any woman, any age or shape.
2) Compliment fat women's clothing choices, in ways appropriate to the setting. At work, keep it entirely non-sexual - "that's an awesome shirt" or "that scarf looks warm; you must be cozy" or whatever's appropriate.
3) When spending time with other guys, point out good-looking fat women. "That lady in the purple jogging suit can move!" for casual discussions; "check out the one in the gold sequins!" watching a movie dance club scene. Help them get used to the idea that women with larger than 32" waists are still people and some guys even find them attractive.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:07 PM on June 5, 2018
biogeo, I appreciate that your intentions are good, but I want to echo something that Nicole Cliffe said on Twitter in response to Racked's plus-size articles:
Feeling better about yourself is great, but what the fuck good is it if you cannot buy a pair of pants from the same people telling you to feel better about yourself.
I think it's possible for self-love or body image to become a conversation that distracts from some of the important issues raised in this thread about the material difficulties that come with existing as a fat person. And these things are intertwined - because I do not feel myself to be cute or dapper or good-looking when I'm wearing the thing that I bought at Target while saying "sigh, I GUESS." Being able to choose things that you feel suit you is an important part of how one feels about one's appearance, I think.
(And since I complained in the last plus-size fashion thread about my difficulties in finding button-down shirts that didn't have floral patterns, let me give a shout-out to Gender Free World whose shirts are not cheap - and whose sizes are not THAT extended - but who will still satisfy my need to have a shirt that's covered in bees.)
posted by Jeanne at 8:25 PM on June 5, 2018 [12 favorites]
Feeling better about yourself is great, but what the fuck good is it if you cannot buy a pair of pants from the same people telling you to feel better about yourself.
I think it's possible for self-love or body image to become a conversation that distracts from some of the important issues raised in this thread about the material difficulties that come with existing as a fat person. And these things are intertwined - because I do not feel myself to be cute or dapper or good-looking when I'm wearing the thing that I bought at Target while saying "sigh, I GUESS." Being able to choose things that you feel suit you is an important part of how one feels about one's appearance, I think.
(And since I complained in the last plus-size fashion thread about my difficulties in finding button-down shirts that didn't have floral patterns, let me give a shout-out to Gender Free World whose shirts are not cheap - and whose sizes are not THAT extended - but who will still satisfy my need to have a shirt that's covered in bees.)
posted by Jeanne at 8:25 PM on June 5, 2018 [12 favorites]
biogeo, I appreciate that your intentions are good
I'll take that to mean that you think my actions are not good. In which case I apologize.
posted by biogeo at 8:31 PM on June 5, 2018
I'll take that to mean that you think my actions are not good. In which case I apologize.
posted by biogeo at 8:31 PM on June 5, 2018
Bra fitting got a lot better once I learned that you should not add 4 or 5 inches to your under-bust measurement to get your band size. Just take the raw number for your band size (if it’s an odd number, add 1 only), and compute your cup size from there by measuring around the fullest part of your bust and taking the difference, then counting A, B, C, D, DD, E, F, etc. (This will lead to a bigger cup size than you probably expect. This is OK. Cup sizes don’t mean what we’ve all been told forever. There’s no such thing as “a C cup” — 32C is a different bust size from 38C!)
The +4/5 thing is a complete lie and yet it’s everywhere. It is total gaslighting and leads to so many people feeling like their bodies must be shaped wrong, because they carefully measured and added 4, and yet their bra still doesn’t fit right. I felt that way for years.
So much of women’s clothing just feels like gaslighting. Bras are one of the slightly more solvable ones — but you still have to go online and shop UK sites to get a size range outside 32B - 38DD. I only wish trousers were this feasible (and to be clear, I’m not saying all bra sizes are super easy to find — there’s just a somewhat wider range available online).
posted by snowmentality at 10:09 PM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
The +4/5 thing is a complete lie and yet it’s everywhere. It is total gaslighting and leads to so many people feeling like their bodies must be shaped wrong, because they carefully measured and added 4, and yet their bra still doesn’t fit right. I felt that way for years.
So much of women’s clothing just feels like gaslighting. Bras are one of the slightly more solvable ones — but you still have to go online and shop UK sites to get a size range outside 32B - 38DD. I only wish trousers were this feasible (and to be clear, I’m not saying all bra sizes are super easy to find — there’s just a somewhat wider range available online).
posted by snowmentality at 10:09 PM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have also stumbled on the nice body positive corner of instagram, and it has really helped me with my self esteem levels. In case this can help anyone else, here are some of the people I follow:
bodyposipanda
sheisdash
selfloveliv
alissbonyt
studiomucci
gracefvictory
healgrowglow
jameelajamilofficial
i_weigh
charlihoward
daniellevanier
abearnamedtroy
naturalpositivebodies [nsfw]
beautynotsize
beauty_redefined
Denise Bidot
draw.more.plus
bopoillustrator
posted by ellieBOA at 1:55 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
bodyposipanda
sheisdash
selfloveliv
alissbonyt
studiomucci
gracefvictory
healgrowglow
jameelajamilofficial
i_weigh
charlihoward
daniellevanier
abearnamedtroy
naturalpositivebodies [nsfw]
beautynotsize
beauty_redefined
Denise Bidot
draw.more.plus
bopoillustrator
posted by ellieBOA at 1:55 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
Does anyone have experience of ordering from EShakti, Universal Standard and other better-quality plus-size retailers when you aren't in the US? I'm in the UK. Do feel free to flag/delete if this is a derail... I am hoping it's within the bounds of acceptable discussion though.
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:52 AM on June 6, 2018
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:52 AM on June 6, 2018
It's probably fine but you might have more luck posting it to Ask!
posted by everybody had matching towels at 3:25 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by everybody had matching towels at 3:25 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I hope you all know that you're all beautiful (seriously)
Some of us aren't! Most of us are kinda whatever
Yeah it’s the obligation to be beautiful, and the constant reminder that that’s all anyone cares about, that’s a goddamn problem. I am old enough to be President; I would like, for once in my life, to be able to just be.
Set patriarchy on fucking fire.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:26 AM on June 6, 2018 [21 favorites]
Some of us aren't! Most of us are kinda whatever
Yeah it’s the obligation to be beautiful, and the constant reminder that that’s all anyone cares about, that’s a goddamn problem. I am old enough to be President; I would like, for once in my life, to be able to just be.
Set patriarchy on fucking fire.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:26 AM on June 6, 2018 [21 favorites]
> my need to have a shirt that's covered in bees
OK just making sure you saw this Twitter thread...
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:18 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
OK just making sure you saw this Twitter thread...
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:18 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Does anyone have experience of ordering from EShakti,
I have ordered a fairly unreasonable amount of custom sized clothing from eShakti since they started shipping to Australia. I'm a big fan. It's surprisingly quick, the quality is good, almost everything has customisable sleeves, necklines and hemlines, and everything has pockets. The only problem I had was with returning a custom-size dress that didn't suit me. They still haven't got back to me on that. I assume returning standard sizes would be less of a problem.
posted by misfish at 8:17 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have ordered a fairly unreasonable amount of custom sized clothing from eShakti since they started shipping to Australia. I'm a big fan. It's surprisingly quick, the quality is good, almost everything has customisable sleeves, necklines and hemlines, and everything has pockets. The only problem I had was with returning a custom-size dress that didn't suit me. They still haven't got back to me on that. I assume returning standard sizes would be less of a problem.
posted by misfish at 8:17 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
sciatrix, this is like my favoritest typo of all time right now:
it is frankly weird seeing people who hear me say matter-of-fatly "I am not beautiful"
On topic: let's not forget those of us who are short AND chubby. Petite plus sizes are like the magical unicorn of clothing. My kingdom for leggings that aren't "tall and curvy."
I agree that simply putting someone on display who can't even wear the clothes you're trying to advertise is not a win. However, the thing that helped me most with my body dysphoria after years and years of an eating disorder was simply broadening my view to include people of all body types, color, levels of disability, and gender on a regular basis. I purposely sought out and followed posters with as many different bodies as I could on Instagram and Tumblr. A steady diet of these images over the years was the most radical thing I could do to really *understand in my SOUL* that you can be happy (and look fabulous, if that's what you want to do) in literally any kind of body.
So fuck what the advertisers are doing and go find yourself some REAL subversive images. ellieBOA's list is awesome.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:54 AM on June 7, 2018 [9 favorites]
it is frankly weird seeing people who hear me say matter-of-fatly "I am not beautiful"
On topic: let's not forget those of us who are short AND chubby. Petite plus sizes are like the magical unicorn of clothing. My kingdom for leggings that aren't "tall and curvy."
I agree that simply putting someone on display who can't even wear the clothes you're trying to advertise is not a win. However, the thing that helped me most with my body dysphoria after years and years of an eating disorder was simply broadening my view to include people of all body types, color, levels of disability, and gender on a regular basis. I purposely sought out and followed posters with as many different bodies as I could on Instagram and Tumblr. A steady diet of these images over the years was the most radical thing I could do to really *understand in my SOUL* that you can be happy (and look fabulous, if that's what you want to do) in literally any kind of body.
So fuck what the advertisers are doing and go find yourself some REAL subversive images. ellieBOA's list is awesome.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:54 AM on June 7, 2018 [9 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
When Brands Use Plus Size Models and Don’t Make Plus Size Clothes
I Love Fashion, but Fashion Doesn’t Love Me Back
What Does “Plus-Size” Even Mean?
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:59 AM on June 5, 2018 [11 favorites]