There's No Right Way to Be Queer
June 23, 2018 5:39 PM Subscribe
There is a . . . tension running through this year’s Pride celebrations . . . it’s becoming harder for people who don’t present as the “right” kind of queer-identified person to feel welcome "The contrast is clear in triumphant, ecstatic celebrations of marriage equality, when trans people still can’t use the bathroom that matches their gender identity. Corporations are cashing in on these identities by selling gay-themed products during Pride Month — often referred to as 'rainbow capitalism' — but too often, the rainbow begins and ends with masculine gay men. 'There is a sense now of compulsory gayness,' said Josh Burford, the director of community engagement at the Invisible Histories Project."
"Homonormativity isn’t an issue only on the parade route. The term 'masc 4 masc' is increasingly prevalent on dating sites for gay men as a way of prioritizing masculine-presenting people and filtering out more feminine-presenting ones."
"That compulsion and exclusivity is masked by the perception of diversity within gay identity. 'Nowadays, there are just as many plug-and-play identities, like twinks, bears, otters and dykes, and each comes with a hefty price tag if you want to ‘do them correctly,’ Mr. Burford said. These 'plug-and-play' identities can make closeted L.G.B.T. people feel isolated and unseen. Even though it’s 2018, too many people are still concealing their identities, and the pomp and pageantry — and the cost of participating — of Pride Month doesn’t help."
" 'Being out at a festival is just too expensive for some people, especially people who are newly out in their attempt to get it right and connect with a community they have not really been a part of,' Mr. Burford said. 'The economics of being out at Pride relies on the old idea that all gay people are rich, and as we know, this isn’t true. It gets really hard when your idea of gay is attached to expensive product placement.' "
"Closeted people who aren’t yet plugged into the community are inundated with the so-called right and wrong ways to express their gender identity and sexual orientation."
" "Folks are at different points of their coming-out journey,' said Delighted Tobehere, a drag queen based in New York City who travels around the United States to be a host of Pride and other L.G.B.T.-centered events. 'While some people are looking for their next date, some people are just looking for a friend.' "
"Homonormativity isn’t an issue only on the parade route. The term 'masc 4 masc' is increasingly prevalent on dating sites for gay men as a way of prioritizing masculine-presenting people and filtering out more feminine-presenting ones."
"That compulsion and exclusivity is masked by the perception of diversity within gay identity. 'Nowadays, there are just as many plug-and-play identities, like twinks, bears, otters and dykes, and each comes with a hefty price tag if you want to ‘do them correctly,’ Mr. Burford said. These 'plug-and-play' identities can make closeted L.G.B.T. people feel isolated and unseen. Even though it’s 2018, too many people are still concealing their identities, and the pomp and pageantry — and the cost of participating — of Pride Month doesn’t help."
" 'Being out at a festival is just too expensive for some people, especially people who are newly out in their attempt to get it right and connect with a community they have not really been a part of,' Mr. Burford said. 'The economics of being out at Pride relies on the old idea that all gay people are rich, and as we know, this isn’t true. It gets really hard when your idea of gay is attached to expensive product placement.' "
"Closeted people who aren’t yet plugged into the community are inundated with the so-called right and wrong ways to express their gender identity and sexual orientation."
" "Folks are at different points of their coming-out journey,' said Delighted Tobehere, a drag queen based in New York City who travels around the United States to be a host of Pride and other L.G.B.T.-centered events. 'While some people are looking for their next date, some people are just looking for a friend.' "
The Nib has been running a series of comics on this and other gender related topics.
posted by irisclara at 6:22 PM on June 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by irisclara at 6:22 PM on June 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
All I have to say here is that Delighted Tobehere sounds like they have an incredibly fun job and a hilariously perfect name for it. Other than that I'm just interested to hear what folks who are closer to these issues have to say about this stuff.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:23 PM on June 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:23 PM on June 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Compulsory Gayness is a term I never expected to hear in my lifetime.
This too shall regress to the mean.
posted by Fupped Duck at 6:36 PM on June 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
This too shall regress to the mean.
posted by Fupped Duck at 6:36 PM on June 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Here in Spokane, Pride is a hometown affair with mostly community groups marching and very little big corporation involvement. It's one of the best days of my year every year. I'm sorry that isn't the same for others in other cities.
posted by hippybear at 6:39 PM on June 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:39 PM on June 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Relevant: MY COMING OUT STORY, SPONSORED BY BANK OF AMERICA
posted by gingerbeer at 7:00 PM on June 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by gingerbeer at 7:00 PM on June 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
What a load of typical NYT horseshit. “There's No Right Way to Be Queer” ... but you’re all doing it wrong!
posted by Sys Rq at 7:06 PM on June 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Sys Rq at 7:06 PM on June 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
I personally haven't heard of "the old idea that all gay people are rich" -- where is that coming from?
posted by inconstant at 7:07 PM on June 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 7:07 PM on June 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yeah- I don't always go to pride because it feels like as a genderqueer bi person I'm not always welcome by everyone. And the times I went and had a good time there was this nagging feeling in the back of my head- "they are only ok with you because you pass as a butch lesbian." I didn't go today, and I probably wont go tomorrow. People who are pushing back on this article, maybe ask your gender non-conforming, trans, bi, agender and just plain queer folks how welcome they feel in mainstream lgbt spaces. Because this isn't just NYT horseshit, its a real problem.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 7:14 PM on June 23, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 7:14 PM on June 23, 2018 [31 favorites]
People who are pushing back on this article, maybe ask your gender non-conforming, trans, bi, agender and just plain queer folks how welcome they feel in mainstream lgbt spaces
Hi, I am one of those, and I don’t feel welcome in those spaces either, but thanks for assuming otherwise just like the author did!
posted by Sys Rq at 7:33 PM on June 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hi, I am one of those, and I don’t feel welcome in those spaces either, but thanks for assuming otherwise just like the author did!
posted by Sys Rq at 7:33 PM on June 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
I personally haven't heard of "the old idea that all gay people are rich" -- where is that coming from?
Gay male couples tend to have a higher median household income than straight couples. Gays with kids were rare until recently because we couldn't adopt (or marry). And of course, men in general make more than women. Corporations started chasing this demographic in the 2000s when the stigma of AIDS had subsided and the life expectancy had greatly increased.
Lesbian households are more likely to have kids, and women make less overall, so they tend to be below the median income.
29% of transgender people (of any orientation) live in poverty,compared to 14% of the general population. (2015 data, source)
posted by AFABulous at 7:35 PM on June 23, 2018 [38 favorites]
Gay male couples tend to have a higher median household income than straight couples. Gays with kids were rare until recently because we couldn't adopt (or marry). And of course, men in general make more than women. Corporations started chasing this demographic in the 2000s when the stigma of AIDS had subsided and the life expectancy had greatly increased.
Lesbian households are more likely to have kids, and women make less overall, so they tend to be below the median income.
29% of transgender people (of any orientation) live in poverty,compared to 14% of the general population. (2015 data, source)
posted by AFABulous at 7:35 PM on June 23, 2018 [38 favorites]
my apologies for the assumption, but considering how you bashed the article in one sentence how was I to know the basis of your critique? I think the article is articulating something I have felt for a while but haven't been able to articulate myself. In the recent thread people are talking about not dropping into threads and bashing articles in the first 10 comments, so of course I pushed back against that. there is no where in the article where the author says "you're doing it wrong" where are you getting that?
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 7:44 PM on June 23, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 7:44 PM on June 23, 2018 [25 favorites]
What exactly is expensive?
In Milwaukee, a day pass cost $18. Factor in transportation (parking $10 or Uber $30), drinks (2 beers at $5), a burger ($8) and you're spending around $60 to hang out with queers for an afternoon/evening. More if you buy a rainbow shirt/hat/etc from one of the 40 or so merchant booths. Most people I know either can't afford it at all or don't want to spend their money that way.
Twenty five years ago, it was held in a park with no gates, no entrance fees (I believe there was a $5 suggested donation.) You could bring your own food and beverage. Sure, there were no national music acts. It wasn't flashy. But it wasn't meant to be. People were actively dying, bars were still being raided, marriage was a pipe dream. I don't want to go back to the bad stuff, of course, but I wish it felt more like a community and less like a music festival with more rainbows and shirtless guys.
posted by AFABulous at 7:44 PM on June 23, 2018 [24 favorites]
In Milwaukee, a day pass cost $18. Factor in transportation (parking $10 or Uber $30), drinks (2 beers at $5), a burger ($8) and you're spending around $60 to hang out with queers for an afternoon/evening. More if you buy a rainbow shirt/hat/etc from one of the 40 or so merchant booths. Most people I know either can't afford it at all or don't want to spend their money that way.
Twenty five years ago, it was held in a park with no gates, no entrance fees (I believe there was a $5 suggested donation.) You could bring your own food and beverage. Sure, there were no national music acts. It wasn't flashy. But it wasn't meant to be. People were actively dying, bars were still being raided, marriage was a pipe dream. I don't want to go back to the bad stuff, of course, but I wish it felt more like a community and less like a music festival with more rainbows and shirtless guys.
posted by AFABulous at 7:44 PM on June 23, 2018 [24 favorites]
I work for a company that gets employees to march at Pride, and yet I have no functional way of dealing with homophobic and transphobic comments made by my own team members at work, and there have been enough of them that I'm not only unwilling to come out, I'm afraid to actually participate in the LGBT+allies employee group. But hey, marketing opportunity.
posted by Sequence at 7:46 PM on June 23, 2018 [50 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 7:46 PM on June 23, 2018 [50 favorites]
I really, really dislike that Pride has become about one kind of gay culture. Everything is about one kind of gay culture. I don't like drag queens, I don't understand the fascination with Beyonce, I don't like the right kinds of movies and music and TV shows that gay men are "supposed" to like. I have no idea what 1940s Hollywood musical you're referencing!!! There's nothing wrong with any of that, but sometimes I feel like the only thing I have in common with dominant gay culture is that I'm a man who is sexually and romantically attracted to men. So honestly Pride for me these days is about dancing and eye candy and little else. They mostly don't have room for trans men anyway.
posted by AFABulous at 7:59 PM on June 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 7:59 PM on June 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
I think the article is articulating something I have felt for a while but haven't been able to articulate myself.
And I'll point out that you are definitely not alone in this. I'm not queer myself, but many of my queer-identified friends have expressed similar discomfort with mainstream LGBT spaces. (Often explicitly calling them out for being gay spaces that sometimes welcome lesbians and occasionally make vague noises in support of trans people.)
posted by tobascodagama at 8:07 PM on June 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
And I'll point out that you are definitely not alone in this. I'm not queer myself, but many of my queer-identified friends have expressed similar discomfort with mainstream LGBT spaces. (Often explicitly calling them out for being gay spaces that sometimes welcome lesbians and occasionally make vague noises in support of trans people.)
posted by tobascodagama at 8:07 PM on June 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
I see, AFABulous. I guess that makes sense in a twisted kind of way.
As to community, I've grown rather wary over the years. Not infrequently it can become a force that seeks to tell a single story at the expense of others -- the homegrown, non-corporate version of this. I don't have any answers of course; the fostering of healthy communities is even harder than most people think and I've mostly given up on peopling.
posted by inconstant at 8:37 PM on June 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
As to community, I've grown rather wary over the years. Not infrequently it can become a force that seeks to tell a single story at the expense of others -- the homegrown, non-corporate version of this. I don't have any answers of course; the fostering of healthy communities is even harder than most people think and I've mostly given up on peopling.
posted by inconstant at 8:37 PM on June 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I do not feel welcome at Pride for pretty much all the reasons stated by other commenters and the article. I'm not a well-enough-off white cis gay man in expensive party clothes, heavily-invested and perfectly turned out drag queen, or a bank/insurance company, so I do not think that space is really for me. The chances of a white cis gay man being shitty to me are higher than I'm willing to subject myself to while trapped in a space that will be difficult to leave, and if it's not them it's the lesbians who are already on edge because of the cis gay men, trans people have every reason to be worried about everyone including me, especially since I'd have to invest in performative in-group markers to be identifiable as bi/pan rather than a tourist, and frankly I hate the tourists so I'd be unhelpful in that way myself.
I had assumed these feelings came from being a single-ish young bi woman in the early days of the parades when they were - and in some aspects rightly so - victory marches/fundraisers in the face of the plague, and in the sense of being a very young queer woman who had not suffered in any actual way it wasn't for me. But 25 years later, it's still not quite for anyone else, though I get the feeling that brave young queers are starting to elbow their way past the gate because they don't know or care what A-level male gayness is. More power to them, I hope it stays like that.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:43 PM on June 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
I had assumed these feelings came from being a single-ish young bi woman in the early days of the parades when they were - and in some aspects rightly so - victory marches/fundraisers in the face of the plague, and in the sense of being a very young queer woman who had not suffered in any actual way it wasn't for me. But 25 years later, it's still not quite for anyone else, though I get the feeling that brave young queers are starting to elbow their way past the gate because they don't know or care what A-level male gayness is. More power to them, I hope it stays like that.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:43 PM on June 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
Shit, half the reason I feel so uncomfortable about Pride is that everything's a goddamn festival. It's a parade, or a dance party, it's loud, it's gaudy. I, uh...I don't like those things. Can't we have a nice evening at a bar where everyone just happens to be really kind and is wearing a few extra rainbow accessories?
I've been seeing a heartening number of articles and twitter posts and comics saying, "yeah, there's no wrong way to be queer, you are queer even if you're 'a little queer'." But I still see a bunch of people who feel comfortable drawing the lines. Like, it seems like 2018 is finally the year that people are super vocal about ace/aro being welcome, but I decided to drop a friend over their rude insistence that polyam isn't queer enough to count.
posted by explosion at 9:04 PM on June 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
I've been seeing a heartening number of articles and twitter posts and comics saying, "yeah, there's no wrong way to be queer, you are queer even if you're 'a little queer'." But I still see a bunch of people who feel comfortable drawing the lines. Like, it seems like 2018 is finally the year that people are super vocal about ace/aro being welcome, but I decided to drop a friend over their rude insistence that polyam isn't queer enough to count.
posted by explosion at 9:04 PM on June 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
I feel that a lot of this article is very focused on New York Pride, which may be a high-priced scene heavily sponsored by commercial interests. I'm not all that certain how well this generalizes elsewhere. The idea that "bear" or "dyke" are now high-priced lifestyles rather than words we used to describe people at the small number of local gathering spots is really weird to me, but perhaps I'm just out of date.
I run my church's presence at the local event, and it's about 60% youth of all different flavors.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:33 PM on June 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I run my church's presence at the local event, and it's about 60% youth of all different flavors.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:33 PM on June 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I really need some better explanation for how bear and dyke became expensive. When I was experiencing my LGBTQ adolescence, shopping off the rack at Sears was part of the whole aesthetic.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:46 PM on June 23, 2018
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:46 PM on June 23, 2018
Like, it seems like 2018 is finally the year that people are super vocal about ace/aro being welcome, but I decided to drop a friend over their rude insistence that polyam isn't queer enough to count.
Is it? Because Tumblr has been telling me all year that ace/aro and poly alike need to GTFO of queer spaces. I’ve had to stop following a bunch of people I otherwise liked due to the constant hate certain groups were getting.
FWIW, I’m demi-sexual bi, and never have felt queer enough for pride. The few times I’ve gone, I’ve felt like my queer friends’ straight plus one.
posted by greermahoney at 9:46 PM on June 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
Is it? Because Tumblr has been telling me all year that ace/aro and poly alike need to GTFO of queer spaces. I’ve had to stop following a bunch of people I otherwise liked due to the constant hate certain groups were getting.
FWIW, I’m demi-sexual bi, and never have felt queer enough for pride. The few times I’ve gone, I’ve felt like my queer friends’ straight plus one.
posted by greermahoney at 9:46 PM on June 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
Oh, man, does this ever resonate as someone who is pretty much on what appears to be solid non-binary trans-lesbian and possibly post-queer queer path?
Early in my life I was there for a lot of people, gay, lesbian and bi and then trans. As a random peace punk I ended up at ACT UP protests.
I've been to, oh, a dozen or two different Pride marches or fests? And it wasn't until this last one in my local small town I felt - a little - that it was for me. I hung my first pride flag, myself, at my work. There's also now a small one dangling from my inbox on the wall - and it's mine, and it's good.
What isn't good is how long it took me to find my own path and my own acceptance and my own pride in who I am and can strive to be. A lot of that was certainly my own limitations and fears and the general known treatment of trans people.
But some of it was that I never felt that included. A huge part of it was.
And it took me a while to realize this has been an ongoing thing in trans spaces, and learning to understand, say, the difference between someone transfemme and a gay drag queen and a cis/het/straight forced-feminization fetishist and navigating these really complicated things.
It took navigating the dozen-odd gay men who hit on me instead of accepting me as trans and femme-attracted, whom I talked to because they were visible, and I was naive of GLBTQIA+ politics. Pretty much every masc gay guy I ever tried to talk to about being trans hit on me rather intrusively, failed to even try to understand the concept of "No, no wieners involved at all, damnit!" and ended friendships.
It took a long time to parse that both gay and het dudes do this to cis lesbians way too much, that they can't even fathom that someone might want penetrative sex, even maybe with a toy, and not have it be an actual penis attached to an actual cis male dude or want anything to do with any of that.
It took navigating that trans gender identity and issues don't have to include BDSM/kink/leather at all, or even drag.
It took navigating my gender from my sexual identity, that I was femme-attracted and trans-femme-lesbian of some sort, which is an endless emotional minefield of miscommunication, misconception and a melange of overlapping and shifting straight/gay communication and total failures with both les/bi trans/cis women and straight cis women.
It also took navigating and learning to understand my cis/het male privilege, and how this intersected and even intruded in spaces without an out identity.
And last, it also took understanding and starting to navigate that I don't have to have a ready-made space at all - nor is it anyone's responsibility to make one for me, nor to welcome me to the proverbial club.
I even don't have to stand under the big umbrella, even if I might be helping hold it up my corner of it.
I can write my own path, confirm and affirm my own identity and it's going to finally actually be the snarky "I define my gender as "me"" in real ways, and in real ways it already is, has been and will be.
I've never had a plug and play anything, why should I expect or even want one in my trans identity and life?
posted by loquacious at 10:12 PM on June 23, 2018 [18 favorites]
Early in my life I was there for a lot of people, gay, lesbian and bi and then trans. As a random peace punk I ended up at ACT UP protests.
I've been to, oh, a dozen or two different Pride marches or fests? And it wasn't until this last one in my local small town I felt - a little - that it was for me. I hung my first pride flag, myself, at my work. There's also now a small one dangling from my inbox on the wall - and it's mine, and it's good.
What isn't good is how long it took me to find my own path and my own acceptance and my own pride in who I am and can strive to be. A lot of that was certainly my own limitations and fears and the general known treatment of trans people.
But some of it was that I never felt that included. A huge part of it was.
And it took me a while to realize this has been an ongoing thing in trans spaces, and learning to understand, say, the difference between someone transfemme and a gay drag queen and a cis/het/straight forced-feminization fetishist and navigating these really complicated things.
It took navigating the dozen-odd gay men who hit on me instead of accepting me as trans and femme-attracted, whom I talked to because they were visible, and I was naive of GLBTQIA+ politics. Pretty much every masc gay guy I ever tried to talk to about being trans hit on me rather intrusively, failed to even try to understand the concept of "No, no wieners involved at all, damnit!" and ended friendships.
It took a long time to parse that both gay and het dudes do this to cis lesbians way too much, that they can't even fathom that someone might want penetrative sex, even maybe with a toy, and not have it be an actual penis attached to an actual cis male dude or want anything to do with any of that.
It took navigating that trans gender identity and issues don't have to include BDSM/kink/leather at all, or even drag.
It took navigating my gender from my sexual identity, that I was femme-attracted and trans-femme-lesbian of some sort, which is an endless emotional minefield of miscommunication, misconception and a melange of overlapping and shifting straight/gay communication and total failures with both les/bi trans/cis women and straight cis women.
It also took navigating and learning to understand my cis/het male privilege, and how this intersected and even intruded in spaces without an out identity.
And last, it also took understanding and starting to navigate that I don't have to have a ready-made space at all - nor is it anyone's responsibility to make one for me, nor to welcome me to the proverbial club.
I even don't have to stand under the big umbrella, even if I might be helping hold it up my corner of it.
I can write my own path, confirm and affirm my own identity and it's going to finally actually be the snarky "I define my gender as "me"" in real ways, and in real ways it already is, has been and will be.
I've never had a plug and play anything, why should I expect or even want one in my trans identity and life?
posted by loquacious at 10:12 PM on June 23, 2018 [18 favorites]
Ace-hate is one of the reasons I left tumblr honestly.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:12 PM on June 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:12 PM on June 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
Ace-hate is one of the reasons I left tumblr honestly.
Alas, it's a recent flavor of intracommunity shittiness on the site. I left before ace discourse really got rolling due to a trend of biphobia denial, and the fact that it's too damn easy to create sockpuppet alts for organizing harassment.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 10:20 PM on June 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
Alas, it's a recent flavor of intracommunity shittiness on the site. I left before ace discourse really got rolling due to a trend of biphobia denial, and the fact that it's too damn easy to create sockpuppet alts for organizing harassment.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 10:20 PM on June 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
Shit this thread made me reopen my account because yeah. Pride. What even is the thing.
Primarily I see it as the LGBT folks who can do it, are doing it for other LGBT people like me who are still, even after decades, too confused by it to know exactly how I could participate in it. So I enjoy the spectacle.
But, for all my weird general avoidance of pride, I participated in Austin Pride in 2016 and when we came up on the “queer part of downtown” where the parade ended there were thousands, I mean, thousands of people cheering and clapping and I cried. To see so many god dang queer people supporting each other in one place felt nice. Yeah there were a lot straights too and they were being cool except for the right wing protesters but they were shouted out pretty quick.
Which leads me to this year, the place I work is sponsoring London pride and I’m...actually flying to London to be a part of it and I’m half freaked way the fuck out like I’m selling out and half excited also.
I think feeling alienated from it and trying to insert yourself into it every so often and feeling angry as fuck at the whole thing and critiquing it within an inch of its contemporary miserable charade is a fundamental part of what it has become.
I’m going to go to London, I’m going to go to Pride. I’m going to be a little pill about the systemic problems with pride to anyone who will listen to me. I’m also going to take part in the pageantry and celebration while staying conscious and aware that our liberation involves subsets of us going out and celebrating who we ALL are. That liberation means centering on those who are made invisible and erased by pride, that liberation means when you’ve got the personal reserves which allow you to work to make the Pride bullcrap better, do whatever small part you can. I’m fortunate to have those reserves this year.
All that positivity aside, most years I’m just too over being trans and gay to give any fucks whatsoever about pride.
posted by nikaspark at 11:23 PM on June 23, 2018 [22 favorites]
Primarily I see it as the LGBT folks who can do it, are doing it for other LGBT people like me who are still, even after decades, too confused by it to know exactly how I could participate in it. So I enjoy the spectacle.
But, for all my weird general avoidance of pride, I participated in Austin Pride in 2016 and when we came up on the “queer part of downtown” where the parade ended there were thousands, I mean, thousands of people cheering and clapping and I cried. To see so many god dang queer people supporting each other in one place felt nice. Yeah there were a lot straights too and they were being cool except for the right wing protesters but they were shouted out pretty quick.
Which leads me to this year, the place I work is sponsoring London pride and I’m...actually flying to London to be a part of it and I’m half freaked way the fuck out like I’m selling out and half excited also.
I think feeling alienated from it and trying to insert yourself into it every so often and feeling angry as fuck at the whole thing and critiquing it within an inch of its contemporary miserable charade is a fundamental part of what it has become.
I’m going to go to London, I’m going to go to Pride. I’m going to be a little pill about the systemic problems with pride to anyone who will listen to me. I’m also going to take part in the pageantry and celebration while staying conscious and aware that our liberation involves subsets of us going out and celebrating who we ALL are. That liberation means centering on those who are made invisible and erased by pride, that liberation means when you’ve got the personal reserves which allow you to work to make the Pride bullcrap better, do whatever small part you can. I’m fortunate to have those reserves this year.
All that positivity aside, most years I’m just too over being trans and gay to give any fucks whatsoever about pride.
posted by nikaspark at 11:23 PM on June 23, 2018 [22 favorites]
Count me as another cis gay dude uncomfortable with mainstream LGBT spaces. So much of it seems like it’s performative gayness. Like, in order to overcompensate for being an oppressed minority, we need to become a parody of queerness, so over-the-top queer that it’ll make up for the years of not being able to express ourselves.
I get that some people actually need that. And I acknowledge my discomfort around it may signal some unresolved homophobia on my part? But still, after a while, it just begins to feel like a thin veneer covering up a massive core of insecurity.
Maybe I’m just a curmudgeonly middle-aged guy, but I often feel like Why the hell are you calling me “girl” and snapping your fingers like that? You’re not RuPaul, you’re a gay white guy from the ‘burbs. No, I’m not really interested in going to see a drag show. Sorry, I don’t really wear leather. Oh god, no, I’m 52...my strutting around shirtless, six-pack-abs days are well behind me. Yeah, “It’s Raining Men” is a fun song, but is it really an anthem? Anyway, it’s too fricking loud. I said it’s too loud! What? Well yes, I’m sure I’m gay—I mean, I really like to fuck guys. Here...why don’t you just have a seat, take it down a notch, and just tell me more about yourself...
*shakes fist at sky, sips some apple juice*
posted by darkstar at 11:24 PM on June 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
I get that some people actually need that. And I acknowledge my discomfort around it may signal some unresolved homophobia on my part? But still, after a while, it just begins to feel like a thin veneer covering up a massive core of insecurity.
Maybe I’m just a curmudgeonly middle-aged guy, but I often feel like Why the hell are you calling me “girl” and snapping your fingers like that? You’re not RuPaul, you’re a gay white guy from the ‘burbs. No, I’m not really interested in going to see a drag show. Sorry, I don’t really wear leather. Oh god, no, I’m 52...my strutting around shirtless, six-pack-abs days are well behind me. Yeah, “It’s Raining Men” is a fun song, but is it really an anthem? Anyway, it’s too fricking loud. I said it’s too loud! What? Well yes, I’m sure I’m gay—I mean, I really like to fuck guys. Here...why don’t you just have a seat, take it down a notch, and just tell me more about yourself...
*shakes fist at sky, sips some apple juice*
posted by darkstar at 11:24 PM on June 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
Like, in order to overcompensate for being an oppressed minority, we need to become a parody of queerness, so over-the-top queer that it’ll make up for the years of not being able to express ourselves.
Seriously can we just eject the overwrought campiness from gay spaces and fly it into the heart of the sun.
posted by nikaspark at 11:28 PM on June 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Seriously can we just eject the overwrought campiness from gay spaces and fly it into the heart of the sun.
posted by nikaspark at 11:28 PM on June 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Once upon a time before Pride™, brought to you by Wells Fargo was a thing, gay pride celebrations were still really performative: oiled up buff dudes in daisy dukes & timberlands, butch broads on harleys, etc. I understood this as a "we're here, we're loud, get used to it" display of defiance in the face of oppression, exclusion, etc. Right on.
But I also wondered if an equally effective show of pride, and moving toward everyday acceptance, as well as doing a little 'freak out the squares' work on the way, might have been the small-town Pride Parade, where instead of floats of leather daddies etc, it was just a marching band followed by everyqueer in Podunk County in their work/street clothes waving to the crowd.
I thought maybe the combination of "Hi everyone, this is just li' ol' me!" from the paraders and "Hey! That's my dentist! And the 8th grade science teacher, and the fire chief, and the choirmaster (elbow-heh-knew that) and my favorite diner waitress, and gee, the whole office from the used car lot. Huh. Who woulda thunk it! I liked all these folks before I knew, so guess gay people aren't all freaks and degenerates like they say on the FOX tee-vee after all" might have done just as much if not more good as Larry in a feathered samba queen outfit blowing a whistle would, especially in Heartland Country.
Now I wonder if it would have done the paradees some good too, as they gathered for hot cocoa and donuts beforehand, in terms of a "you too? in what way? oh, that's a thing? neat, welcome to the club!" As opposed to the few people who fit the Tom of Finland / Dykes on Bikes look, and therefore got a pass when they performed their predefined roles, akin to Quarterback and Head Cheerleader, while all the others kept to the shadows.
posted by bartleby at 11:38 PM on June 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
But I also wondered if an equally effective show of pride, and moving toward everyday acceptance, as well as doing a little 'freak out the squares' work on the way, might have been the small-town Pride Parade, where instead of floats of leather daddies etc, it was just a marching band followed by everyqueer in Podunk County in their work/street clothes waving to the crowd.
I thought maybe the combination of "Hi everyone, this is just li' ol' me!" from the paraders and "Hey! That's my dentist! And the 8th grade science teacher, and the fire chief, and the choirmaster (elbow-heh-knew that) and my favorite diner waitress, and gee, the whole office from the used car lot. Huh. Who woulda thunk it! I liked all these folks before I knew, so guess gay people aren't all freaks and degenerates like they say on the FOX tee-vee after all" might have done just as much if not more good as Larry in a feathered samba queen outfit blowing a whistle would, especially in Heartland Country.
Now I wonder if it would have done the paradees some good too, as they gathered for hot cocoa and donuts beforehand, in terms of a "you too? in what way? oh, that's a thing? neat, welcome to the club!" As opposed to the few people who fit the Tom of Finland / Dykes on Bikes look, and therefore got a pass when they performed their predefined roles, akin to Quarterback and Head Cheerleader, while all the others kept to the shadows.
posted by bartleby at 11:38 PM on June 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
Being exclusionary at Pride has always seemed particularly silly to me because straight people go to Pride. In droves. As tourists, because it's a giant party, with queer friends, to feel progressive, whatever.
Though I think a lot of the pushback against Pride is not necessarily a community thing but sometimes personality aspects (people who don't like parades or are introverts or don't like being camp: cool! fine! other people enjoy those things! you don't have to go!). Nothing is going to be perfect or even good for all members of the community because we're all really really different.
SF Pride was a fun thing to go to once but honestly I enjoyed the Dyke March better. I also really liked Taipei Pride, and I think that what some people are missing for Prides in some cities is the benefit of being intensely visible for a day as a political force (this year we marched for sex education) just to prove that we're here: people can be queer and Taiwanese, we can be your neighbors and coworkers and strangers on the street, and we're not alone.
posted by storytam at 11:46 PM on June 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
Though I think a lot of the pushback against Pride is not necessarily a community thing but sometimes personality aspects (people who don't like parades or are introverts or don't like being camp: cool! fine! other people enjoy those things! you don't have to go!). Nothing is going to be perfect or even good for all members of the community because we're all really really different.
SF Pride was a fun thing to go to once but honestly I enjoyed the Dyke March better. I also really liked Taipei Pride, and I think that what some people are missing for Prides in some cities is the benefit of being intensely visible for a day as a political force (this year we marched for sex education) just to prove that we're here: people can be queer and Taiwanese, we can be your neighbors and coworkers and strangers on the street, and we're not alone.
posted by storytam at 11:46 PM on June 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
Recently got into it with someone on fb who cheerfully, neutrally said that cishet people shouldn't be welcome at pride. When I said that the support of my spouse and parent of my child was important to me as a genderqueer bi person, they got upset and deleted the post in a way that suggested that I'd done something wrong. Anyway, this was the first year going to my town's pride as an intentional thing and it was emotional and important to me.
I did buy my pride shirt at target, tho.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:47 PM on June 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
I did buy my pride shirt at target, tho.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:47 PM on June 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
I had no idea that some American Pride festivals charged for entry, that’s insane. Here in Paris we have Pride fortnight leading up to the March (link in French), so there are other things to do like film screenings if the festival side of Pride isn’t your jam.
posted by ellieBOA at 11:47 PM on June 23, 2018
posted by ellieBOA at 11:47 PM on June 23, 2018
There’s a kind of camouflage LGBT folks have to wear to survive, the straight uniform I guess you could call it. I support wearing it because that’s valid as fuck we have to eat and survive but I also think under our clothes that allow us to blend with the social norm we’re still gay and “looking the part” will never mean we’re actually “of the part”. Tolerated perhaps, but never actually fully integrated into the social norms.
posted by nikaspark at 11:48 PM on June 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 11:48 PM on June 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
But I also wondered if an equally effective show of pride, and moving toward everyday acceptance, as well as doing a little 'freak out the squares' work on the way, might have been the small-town Pride Parade, where instead of floats of leather daddies etc, it was just a marching band followed by everyqueer in Podunk County in their work/street clothes waving to the crowd.
That's what pride is in many communities. Last year, my church's booth was across the lane from my ex dentist who was also a former neighbor. But, sheesh, this is turning into yet another one of those discussions with lots of people asking "why do y'all have to be so queer at pride." Some responses:
1. It doesn't matter how many queens, butches, and leather folk there actually are at an event, they inevitably get almost all of the news photography.
2. Some of us get accused of engaging in "performative" queerness even though we're not really doing it as a performance. Maybe we're not doing the gender-binary corporate performance demanded of our employers for just one day. Maybe, we're in that unfortunate mix of age and transition where we get clocked as queens because you can't be nonbinary and fat over 40.
3. If you want performance, we get one day out of the year when straight people dress up in ethnic drag and act like fools. Somehow, we never have arguments that Shriners make straight people look bad.
Pride gate-keeping is ridiculous and the one person who tried to pull it on me admitted that she was going to be out of the country on overseas study that summer. The mayor shows up. Straight allies and organizations like Planned Parenthood show up. You're not really making a safer space by throwing a fit over "straight-passing" people. That ship sailed over 30 years ago.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:02 AM on June 24, 2018 [30 favorites]
That's what pride is in many communities. Last year, my church's booth was across the lane from my ex dentist who was also a former neighbor. But, sheesh, this is turning into yet another one of those discussions with lots of people asking "why do y'all have to be so queer at pride." Some responses:
1. It doesn't matter how many queens, butches, and leather folk there actually are at an event, they inevitably get almost all of the news photography.
2. Some of us get accused of engaging in "performative" queerness even though we're not really doing it as a performance. Maybe we're not doing the gender-binary corporate performance demanded of our employers for just one day. Maybe, we're in that unfortunate mix of age and transition where we get clocked as queens because you can't be nonbinary and fat over 40.
3. If you want performance, we get one day out of the year when straight people dress up in ethnic drag and act like fools. Somehow, we never have arguments that Shriners make straight people look bad.
Pride gate-keeping is ridiculous and the one person who tried to pull it on me admitted that she was going to be out of the country on overseas study that summer. The mayor shows up. Straight allies and organizations like Planned Parenthood show up. You're not really making a safer space by throwing a fit over "straight-passing" people. That ship sailed over 30 years ago.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:02 AM on June 24, 2018 [30 favorites]
I’d like to say my comment about overwrought campiness is more in “gay people being way too cynical and snarky to each other as a kind of gallows humor way of getting through day” and not about the spectacle and pageantry of pride because I fully support everyone’s manner of dress of expression.
I apologize for my comment coming across in support of critizising “performative queerness” in the context of pride, my head was in a totally different place.
posted by nikaspark at 12:13 AM on June 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
I apologize for my comment coming across in support of critizising “performative queerness” in the context of pride, my head was in a totally different place.
posted by nikaspark at 12:13 AM on June 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
My apologies for misreading you nikaspark. It wasn't just you and it's way past my usual bedtime.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:15 AM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:15 AM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I just want to say, thank you for pretty much all of these comments. Metafilter doesn't always feel like home to me but this thread has been something warm and comfy, maybe weirdly.
I'm sort of all kinds of queer on all the axes, and maybe that contributes to me never feeling 'queer enough', but the identity that is the strongest and most clear to me--asexual--is the one that seems to be least acceptable in a lot of spaces. Especially, like many have said, on tumblr. It's exhausting enough online and while I hear all the time that ace people are more accepted irl it just... doesn't seem worth it for me to bother trying.
I will say, though: pride was yesterday here, and while I did consider going despite lacking much enthusiasm, any interest I had was killed good 'n dead when I was invited by the only people I've told irl that I'm ace. This is because they, after being told this, appeared interested and genuinely wanting to learn about it and then after seeming to understand continued suggesting we play games with sexual themes or, later on, suggested I be involved in a threesome with them, which when I refused they downgraded to just a twosome while the guy watched, which I thought I rejected strongly enough, but I still occasionally get reminded that 'the offer is still open'. (one of them worked with me so he was inescapable, but he's been fired. I only have to bear one more social event that they'll be at before I can cut them out completely and god I can't wait for that day)
Anyway. Didn't help me feel like any less of a freak in what's supposed to be my own community and definitely didn't help me feel any more understood.
Thanks for the article and thread.
posted by nogoodverybad at 12:33 AM on June 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
I'm sort of all kinds of queer on all the axes, and maybe that contributes to me never feeling 'queer enough', but the identity that is the strongest and most clear to me--asexual--is the one that seems to be least acceptable in a lot of spaces. Especially, like many have said, on tumblr. It's exhausting enough online and while I hear all the time that ace people are more accepted irl it just... doesn't seem worth it for me to bother trying.
I will say, though: pride was yesterday here, and while I did consider going despite lacking much enthusiasm, any interest I had was killed good 'n dead when I was invited by the only people I've told irl that I'm ace. This is because they, after being told this, appeared interested and genuinely wanting to learn about it and then after seeming to understand continued suggesting we play games with sexual themes or, later on, suggested I be involved in a threesome with them, which when I refused they downgraded to just a twosome while the guy watched, which I thought I rejected strongly enough, but I still occasionally get reminded that 'the offer is still open'. (one of them worked with me so he was inescapable, but he's been fired. I only have to bear one more social event that they'll be at before I can cut them out completely and god I can't wait for that day)
Anyway. Didn't help me feel like any less of a freak in what's supposed to be my own community and definitely didn't help me feel any more understood.
Thanks for the article and thread.
posted by nogoodverybad at 12:33 AM on June 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
This sounds familiar. My two local Prides have both gotten super commercial. One was worried about anyone getting up in stage possibly using naughty words and running the family friendly atmosphere (which was important for insuring maximum attendance - of predominantly straight families - for the sake of their sponsors. Needless to say, you only got one very narrow type represented on the stage. The other is broadly similar, but has a pattern of getting in bed with transphobes and TERFs and being utterly unapologetic about it.
Not for the likes of me, that is obvious.
posted by Dysk at 12:46 AM on June 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Not for the likes of me, that is obvious.
posted by Dysk at 12:46 AM on June 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Ugh, nogoodverybad, I’m sorry those people behaved so badly towards you. I hope you can get through that social event with no further hassle from them.
posted by daisyk at 1:52 AM on June 24, 2018
posted by daisyk at 1:52 AM on June 24, 2018
It's been a while since I read Foucault, but wasn't one of his points that by putting labels on stuff you create a normativity that is always oppressive? I know that he had some very divisive ideas about "queer" in contrast to "straight", but as I read him, his main point was to transcend definitions and as a queer person---I hesitate to add, because I don't think it should matter terribly---he was very critical of the gay liberation movement for seemingly doing the opposite. This seems to be a case where his point resonates.
posted by cx at 3:00 AM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by cx at 3:00 AM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh, lord, queer gatekeeping is the worst, othering between others. The local trans group just to pull a "if you are not out and fully transitioned you cannot call yourself trans", this in a country where you need a judge for a name change.
We are pushing back and marching on.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 3:00 AM on June 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
We are pushing back and marching on.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 3:00 AM on June 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
There's much more to be proud of than just a parade. Never in my life did I think the Seattle Times' sports section's lead article would be about a lesbian couple: Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird. Pride & Joy indeed!
posted by Carol Anne at 5:29 AM on June 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Carol Anne at 5:29 AM on June 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I thought maybe the combination of "Hi everyone, this is just li' ol' me!" from the paraders and "Hey! That's my dentist! And the 8th grade science teacher, and the fire chief, and the choirmaster (elbow-heh-knew that) and my favorite diner waitress, and gee, the whole office from the used car lot. Huh. Who woulda thunk it! I liked all these folks before I knew, so guess gay people aren't all freaks and degenerates like they say on the FOX tee-vee after all" might have done just as much if not more good as Larry in a feathered samba queen outfit blowing a whistle would, especially in Heartland Country.
Welcome to the thread, assimilationist!
Even though - as I said above - I am not a personal fan of drag and camp, I don't begrudge others for it because it is the one fucking weekend a year they get to do it in public without repercussion. Let your freak flag fly. Pride is NOT for straight people. I don't mean they shouldn't be allowed in the festival, I mean we queers shouldn't give a moment's thought to how we appear to them. Sure we're their dentists and neighbors and whatnot. We should not have to tone it down to show "we're just like them." Lots of us are NOT "just like them." Lots of us do not want to get married, be monogamous, buy a house, and have/adopt kids. Lots of us are radical gender-bending freaks who fuck anonymously in bathrooms.
I wish there was MORE in-your-face political radicalness in conjunction with pride. No Justice No Pride is awesome and the trans marches are inevitably political because we are still struggling for survival. We're never going to be "just like straight people" until we're treated just like straight people. And liberation does not come from assimilation.
posted by AFABulous at 9:20 AM on June 24, 2018 [22 favorites]
Welcome to the thread, assimilationist!
Even though - as I said above - I am not a personal fan of drag and camp, I don't begrudge others for it because it is the one fucking weekend a year they get to do it in public without repercussion. Let your freak flag fly. Pride is NOT for straight people. I don't mean they shouldn't be allowed in the festival, I mean we queers shouldn't give a moment's thought to how we appear to them. Sure we're their dentists and neighbors and whatnot. We should not have to tone it down to show "we're just like them." Lots of us are NOT "just like them." Lots of us do not want to get married, be monogamous, buy a house, and have/adopt kids. Lots of us are radical gender-bending freaks who fuck anonymously in bathrooms.
I wish there was MORE in-your-face political radicalness in conjunction with pride. No Justice No Pride is awesome and the trans marches are inevitably political because we are still struggling for survival. We're never going to be "just like straight people" until we're treated just like straight people. And liberation does not come from assimilation.
posted by AFABulous at 9:20 AM on June 24, 2018 [22 favorites]
I wish there was MORE in-your-face political radicalness in conjunction with pride.
Especially given the origins of Pride... I can't help but wonder what all the trans women, butch lesbians, and drag queens who had the courage to start fighting back against police brutality at Stonewall would think about folks complaining about how blatantly weird and queer and gender non-conforming people are at Pride celebrations.
posted by overglow at 10:55 AM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Especially given the origins of Pride... I can't help but wonder what all the trans women, butch lesbians, and drag queens who had the courage to start fighting back against police brutality at Stonewall would think about folks complaining about how blatantly weird and queer and gender non-conforming people are at Pride celebrations.
posted by overglow at 10:55 AM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I kinda feel like the photo at the top of the article sums up much more than it intends to. It centers on a white drag queen in all kinds of rainbow regalia, it’s labeled “a participant in the 2017 Pride parade in New York”. And off on the side is a chubby black guy in a white t-shirt, carrying a rainbow flag, wearing a rainbow luau, and stying to stick himself into the shot. Drag queens are working hard to be photogenic and thus end up being a prominent part of the media narrative of Pride, people ignore the less flamboyant stuff.
I dunno if I’m gonna take my trans lady ass down to Seattle’s parade today. Depends on if my D&D game is cancelled due to “oh geez half the players want to hit their local Pride celebrations”. I didn’t bother showing up for the Trans Pride march last weekend. I know the Gay Pride parade is gonna be a mix of ultra flamboyance and really mundane-looking people marching as the Amazon Supports Gayness unit or whatever. There’s a lot of normal people there either declaring their Queerness or their Okayness With Queerness, they just don’t make the media coverage.
You don’t have to dress up in the costume of one particular sub-species of Gay. Just go out and enjoy being among a bunch of people who are okay with not being straight, gawk at the people who have decided that they want to put some time and effort into dressing up to provide the carnival atmosphere, whether they be leather dykes, drag queens, a truck full of fursuiters, or just someone dancing along the parade route in nothing but a bunch of rainbow scarves and very considered androgyny. Or if that’s too much carnival for you, just go get a little rainbow flag lapel pin and wear it on your all-black business regalia as you perform your very sober and sensible business job.
I dunno, maybe coming from New Orleans gives me a different attitude towards A Carnival than most people. You can spend a lot of time and effort and money to be part of the Carnival. There are people down there whose entire job for a significant part of the year revolves around building the massive floats that the krewes ride down the streets. There are people without much money who spend the whole year slowly building elaborate feathered outfits that they show off on Mardi Gras day. And there are people who just show up in whatever they normally wear to watch the parades, accessorize with some beads they catch, and who wander through the wild party that fills half the French Quarter. There’s a lot of ways to be part of a carnival, and only some of them involve dressing up in expensive costumes.
posted by egypturnash at 11:04 AM on June 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
I dunno if I’m gonna take my trans lady ass down to Seattle’s parade today. Depends on if my D&D game is cancelled due to “oh geez half the players want to hit their local Pride celebrations”. I didn’t bother showing up for the Trans Pride march last weekend. I know the Gay Pride parade is gonna be a mix of ultra flamboyance and really mundane-looking people marching as the Amazon Supports Gayness unit or whatever. There’s a lot of normal people there either declaring their Queerness or their Okayness With Queerness, they just don’t make the media coverage.
You don’t have to dress up in the costume of one particular sub-species of Gay. Just go out and enjoy being among a bunch of people who are okay with not being straight, gawk at the people who have decided that they want to put some time and effort into dressing up to provide the carnival atmosphere, whether they be leather dykes, drag queens, a truck full of fursuiters, or just someone dancing along the parade route in nothing but a bunch of rainbow scarves and very considered androgyny. Or if that’s too much carnival for you, just go get a little rainbow flag lapel pin and wear it on your all-black business regalia as you perform your very sober and sensible business job.
I dunno, maybe coming from New Orleans gives me a different attitude towards A Carnival than most people. You can spend a lot of time and effort and money to be part of the Carnival. There are people down there whose entire job for a significant part of the year revolves around building the massive floats that the krewes ride down the streets. There are people without much money who spend the whole year slowly building elaborate feathered outfits that they show off on Mardi Gras day. And there are people who just show up in whatever they normally wear to watch the parades, accessorize with some beads they catch, and who wander through the wild party that fills half the French Quarter. There’s a lot of ways to be part of a carnival, and only some of them involve dressing up in expensive costumes.
posted by egypturnash at 11:04 AM on June 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
Gay male couples tend to have a higher median household income than straight couples.
Do you have a cite for this? The APA reports that "20 percent of gay men and 25 percent of bisexual men 18-44 years of age are living at or below the federal level of poverty, compared to 15 percent of heterosexual men."
posted by overglow at 11:12 AM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Do you have a cite for this? The APA reports that "20 percent of gay men and 25 percent of bisexual men 18-44 years of age are living at or below the federal level of poverty, compared to 15 percent of heterosexual men."
posted by overglow at 11:12 AM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Gay male couples tend to have a higher median household income than straight couples.
Do you have a cite for this? The APA reports that "20 percent of gay men and 25 percent of bisexual men 18-44 years of age are living at or below the federal level of poverty, compared to 15 percent of heterosexual men."
Married gay couples (i.e. two men married to each other) apparently had average household incomes of $176K in 2014, which was $52K higher than lesbian married couples and $63K higher than straight couples. (Gender and geographical considerations go quite a ways toward explaining the disparity.)
However, I think this is one of those situations where it's important to be careful about which population we're talking about. "Gay male couples " ≠ "married gay male couples" ≠ "gay and bisexual men" -- obviously these populations form an overlapping Venn diagram of sorts, but statements like the ones I provided above and the statistics about gay men in poverty can all be simultaneously true because these aren't always concerning the same people.
posted by andrewesque at 11:29 AM on June 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Do you have a cite for this? The APA reports that "20 percent of gay men and 25 percent of bisexual men 18-44 years of age are living at or below the federal level of poverty, compared to 15 percent of heterosexual men."
Married gay couples (i.e. two men married to each other) apparently had average household incomes of $176K in 2014, which was $52K higher than lesbian married couples and $63K higher than straight couples. (Gender and geographical considerations go quite a ways toward explaining the disparity.)
However, I think this is one of those situations where it's important to be careful about which population we're talking about. "Gay male couples " ≠ "married gay male couples" ≠ "gay and bisexual men" -- obviously these populations form an overlapping Venn diagram of sorts, but statements like the ones I provided above and the statistics about gay men in poverty can all be simultaneously true because these aren't always concerning the same people.
posted by andrewesque at 11:29 AM on June 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Ah, thanks, andrewesque! That makes a lot of sense. And it makes me wonder if the general trend of married folks having more financial stability/wealth than single folks is even more starkly present within the population of gay/bi/queer men. Seems like it's really important to communicate that the statistics about male-male married couples aren't really generalizable to queer men as a whole (especially considering the high rates of houselessness among QUILTBAG youth of all genders).
posted by overglow at 11:51 AM on June 24, 2018
posted by overglow at 11:51 AM on June 24, 2018
And also sexual orientation is not operating along fixed lines in trans communities, so we need to also understand that the statistics we are using to measure gay communities are not static either.
posted by nikaspark at 12:01 PM on June 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 12:01 PM on June 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
As I mentioned in the bi thread, I am the mom that takes the teenagers to Pride. My favorite friend of Kid Ruki's is an entirely average teenage boy who happens to be gay. The front page of one of the local newspapers had a picture of him taking a selfie with two of his other female friends (one of whom is black, so credit to the Pawtucket Times for not entirely whitewashing Pride) and he just looked so radiantly happy. I love that kid like he's my own, and while, yeah, my company had a booth there and PVD Pride overall had a large focus on drag and a specific type of gay male culture, it makes me happy to cart in a carload of queer teenagers from the suburbs and let them free in the environment where they're not the minority.
posted by Ruki at 12:06 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 12:06 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
an entirely average teenage boy who happens to be gay
Please don't do this. You didn't call his friend "an entirely average teenage girl who happens to be black." Straight boys/men might be the majority but they're not the default "average." Did you mean "it's not immediately apparent that he's gay"? That's also... not great.
posted by AFABulous at 3:09 PM on June 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Please don't do this. You didn't call his friend "an entirely average teenage girl who happens to be black." Straight boys/men might be the majority but they're not the default "average." Did you mean "it's not immediately apparent that he's gay"? That's also... not great.
posted by AFABulous at 3:09 PM on June 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
There are bears, queens, butches, and binary and nonbinary trans people in Heartland Country cities and small-towns. Often they make the yearly trek to state and regional pride events, which are one of the few times where one can be in a public space and hit up a nearby bar, cafe, or diner without doing the constant self-censorship and less situational awareness that we use to survive around straight people.
One of my more depressing hobbies is collecting the medical research on bi health primarily, but I get gay/lesbian health news in the mix as well. (Trans people are woefully underrepresented there.) Internalized homophobia is one of our biggest threats. LGB people smoke more, drink more, have higher risks of diabetes and cardiovascular disease, worse mental health, and worse access to supportive health care compared to straight people. All of that is tied to erasure, invisibility, and lack of supportive community.
I feel a bit uncomfortable with the focus on camp and queens. I think in some ways that's a matter of perception. I've been accused of camp after coming out to someone, even though nothing else changed before and after. I also suspect that at least some of the people accused of doing drag are trans women or nonbinary people who don't pass. For me, seeing GNC people in a space makes me more comfortable about pushing the door on my gender closet just a bit further.
I think "second adolescence" is another factor to help explain why some LGBTQ adults engage in subcultures. The culture of American high schools teaches heterosexuality. I owe a big debt to a Heartland Country bear who invited me into his home, introduced me to his partner, showed off his (not legally recognized) wedding album, and introduced me to a regional drag performance via VHS. It was the first time anyone showed me that one could be gay, have long-term relationships, a job, a life, a community, and a culture at a time when all of the media was about the evil and the dead. Coming out of the closet means creating a understanding of what your sexuality means, not just in the bedroom but in terms of your life goals, your community, and your slice of culture.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:39 PM on June 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
One of my more depressing hobbies is collecting the medical research on bi health primarily, but I get gay/lesbian health news in the mix as well. (Trans people are woefully underrepresented there.) Internalized homophobia is one of our biggest threats. LGB people smoke more, drink more, have higher risks of diabetes and cardiovascular disease, worse mental health, and worse access to supportive health care compared to straight people. All of that is tied to erasure, invisibility, and lack of supportive community.
I feel a bit uncomfortable with the focus on camp and queens. I think in some ways that's a matter of perception. I've been accused of camp after coming out to someone, even though nothing else changed before and after. I also suspect that at least some of the people accused of doing drag are trans women or nonbinary people who don't pass. For me, seeing GNC people in a space makes me more comfortable about pushing the door on my gender closet just a bit further.
I think "second adolescence" is another factor to help explain why some LGBTQ adults engage in subcultures. The culture of American high schools teaches heterosexuality. I owe a big debt to a Heartland Country bear who invited me into his home, introduced me to his partner, showed off his (not legally recognized) wedding album, and introduced me to a regional drag performance via VHS. It was the first time anyone showed me that one could be gay, have long-term relationships, a job, a life, a community, and a culture at a time when all of the media was about the evil and the dead. Coming out of the closet means creating a understanding of what your sexuality means, not just in the bedroom but in terms of your life goals, your community, and your slice of culture.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:39 PM on June 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
Whoops, what I mean to say is that American high schools teach heterosexuality as a cultural institution. On top of the probably heterocentric (by law) sexual health semester. You get a stack of literature that's primarily about straight people doing stuff around straight relationships. You get the history of straight people doing stuff and their biographies. You get vocational or professional training that is descended from 1950s models of labor. You have all of these traditions and rituals like prom and homecoming which are just now opening up in some cases to same-sex couples and trans and GNC people. You have a tacit values curriculum which is about finding your place within adult systems of social capital still based around heterosexual families.
At least some (I did) LGBTQ young adults come out of that system with no idea how we're supposed to get higher-order needs like belonging, community, and a sense of purpose. We have to go through that whole messy process of creating ourselves as sexual (or not) people in relationship to community, culture, and economic systems all over again. You don't really get the information that LGBTQ people do that too and do it for each other unless you plug into an LGBTQ-specific community.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:08 PM on June 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
At least some (I did) LGBTQ young adults come out of that system with no idea how we're supposed to get higher-order needs like belonging, community, and a sense of purpose. We have to go through that whole messy process of creating ourselves as sexual (or not) people in relationship to community, culture, and economic systems all over again. You don't really get the information that LGBTQ people do that too and do it for each other unless you plug into an LGBTQ-specific community.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:08 PM on June 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
I think "second adolescence" is another factor to help explain why some LGBTQ adults engage in subcultures.
Just favorited that comment. It seems really apt.
When I came out in my late 30s, one of the grimmest realizations for me was that I had missed out on all of the socialization and experimentation, the trial-and-error, that hetero youth go through in their teens—from all of their friendships and interactions at school and in their social groups, to nearly all of the images and messages they receive from mainstream pop culture and history.
I consciously realized with great chagrin that my early forties were going to have to be spent going through my teenage years again, at least in a sexually formative sense. There was definitely a span of about four years when I went through the formative stages: just having hook-ups (oh, Grindr!), to shifting to more traditional dating scenarios, to then having my first real boyfriend in a longer term (2-1/2 year) relationship. Shortly after we broke up, I remember thinking to myself that, welp, I guess I made it through high school!
(On preview: your subsequent comment is exactly what I was getting at.)
posted by darkstar at 5:16 PM on June 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Just favorited that comment. It seems really apt.
When I came out in my late 30s, one of the grimmest realizations for me was that I had missed out on all of the socialization and experimentation, the trial-and-error, that hetero youth go through in their teens—from all of their friendships and interactions at school and in their social groups, to nearly all of the images and messages they receive from mainstream pop culture and history.
I consciously realized with great chagrin that my early forties were going to have to be spent going through my teenage years again, at least in a sexually formative sense. There was definitely a span of about four years when I went through the formative stages: just having hook-ups (oh, Grindr!), to shifting to more traditional dating scenarios, to then having my first real boyfriend in a longer term (2-1/2 year) relationship. Shortly after we broke up, I remember thinking to myself that, welp, I guess I made it through high school!
(On preview: your subsequent comment is exactly what I was getting at.)
posted by darkstar at 5:16 PM on June 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Not enough celebration of those of us who are obviously queer and can't hide it.
Just as a note, this is excruciatingly painful to those of us who are plain, bland, boring, moderate-looking, medium-acting, erased, often fat or middle-aged or not-colored-haired or otherwise unremarkable, happily-quietly-living until someone tells me I'm not good enough because I'm not performative enough. It kills me that those of you who are highly-performative are considered better and more important and more legitimately queer than little old erased me.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:17 PM on June 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
Just as a note, this is excruciatingly painful to those of us who are plain, bland, boring, moderate-looking, medium-acting, erased, often fat or middle-aged or not-colored-haired or otherwise unremarkable, happily-quietly-living until someone tells me I'm not good enough because I'm not performative enough. It kills me that those of you who are highly-performative are considered better and more important and more legitimately queer than little old erased me.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:17 PM on June 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'm a blue collar worker in a warehouse wearing hi-vis shirts and protective-toe boots with a giant beard and at various jobs I've been very out or alternately not emphasizing the queer side of my existence. I've mainly found that I don't need to perform as queer in order to be known as queer at work, which feels like the right space to be in at the age of 50 and having been out for 30 years.
They know, it's not a big deal, I don't need to make it a subject of attention on a daily basis, because they don't make their cis-het stuff a subject either. We work in a warehouse, we have things to get done, that is what is important for the hours we are assembled.
posted by hippybear at 8:31 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
They know, it's not a big deal, I don't need to make it a subject of attention on a daily basis, because they don't make their cis-het stuff a subject either. We work in a warehouse, we have things to get done, that is what is important for the hours we are assembled.
posted by hippybear at 8:31 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm feeling super vulnerable sharing this, but I'm not yet ready to publish it to a book yet to share (I have to get it from handwritten to typed) so I read it a loud and posted it to Soundcloud to share with people while I get it all edited and printed and shit. It's titled "Berlin Fragments and Seattle's Ghosts".
I think it needs to be shared. I don't know maybe it's not important? But maybe it is.
Reading of Berlin Fragments, Seattle's Ghosts
posted by nikaspark at 8:35 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think it needs to be shared. I don't know maybe it's not important? But maybe it is.
Reading of Berlin Fragments, Seattle's Ghosts
posted by nikaspark at 8:35 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Can we agree that there's not enough celebration of those of us who are obviously queer and also not enough celebration of those of us who blend in and are wrongly perceived by others as non-queer?
posted by Lexica at 8:52 PM on June 24, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 8:52 PM on June 24, 2018 [22 favorites]
yes! I agree with this.
posted by nikaspark at 8:55 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 8:55 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Joe.My.God's yearly re-post of Watching the Defectives expresses my feelings on this better than I ever could.
Some of the comments on this MF post are just kind of sad, this world doesn't need more Davids.
[edit: some of the ads on this page might be NSFW, especially if your browser knows that you have no objection to a picture of a handsome guy in a jockstrap]
posted by nenequesadilla at 9:13 PM on June 24, 2018
Some of the comments on this MF post are just kind of sad, this world doesn't need more Davids.
[edit: some of the ads on this page might be NSFW, especially if your browser knows that you have no objection to a picture of a handsome guy in a jockstrap]
posted by nenequesadilla at 9:13 PM on June 24, 2018
Well now I feel less bad for not going to the parade today. (well except kinda bad because apparently someone only went cuz they thought my waffling would end up with me going but wev should not take that on myself)
I always feel incredibly conflicted about Chicago Pride - I'm a cishet gay man! I'm supposed to have all the camaraderie or whatever!
Except mostly when I go I feel like I'm missing out on some joining together that's supposedly going on around me and also annoyed that it's a setting where straight Republican politicians can march not just without getting booed but even to a smattering of polite applause.
posted by PMdixon at 9:18 PM on June 24, 2018
I always feel incredibly conflicted about Chicago Pride - I'm a cishet gay man! I'm supposed to have all the camaraderie or whatever!
Except mostly when I go I feel like I'm missing out on some joining together that's supposedly going on around me and also annoyed that it's a setting where straight Republican politicians can march not just without getting booed but even to a smattering of polite applause.
posted by PMdixon at 9:18 PM on June 24, 2018
lyn never, you seem to be equating performativity and visibility? They're not the same thing. A drag queen is high performativity and very visible. A badly passing trans person in drab clothes is very visible, but not very performative.
Pride needs to have space for everyone who is queer. In practice, the first to get squeezed out seem to always be the high visibility folks because we can make people uncomfortable. Maybe things are different in other places, I don't know, but that is certainly my experience in Britain. People push for more inclusion of visible or in-your-face queer identities not because they're better, but because they're the ones in danger of being squeezed out by a focus on respectability, marketability, and appealing to the straight world (for approval, involvement, advertising dollars, permits, whatever) that comes from Pride becoming more mainstream, and more commercialised. The same processes that are behind the erasure of a lot of other sections of the queer community lead to active hostility to certain kinds of visible but not carnival-vibe enough people, even from Pride organisations.
Or, I guess, I see anyone who isn't a canonically beautiful queer person doing their canonically queer thing in an expected and advertiser-safe way as being in this together, against the ties of respectability politics and gentrification.
posted by Dysk at 10:04 PM on June 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
Pride needs to have space for everyone who is queer. In practice, the first to get squeezed out seem to always be the high visibility folks because we can make people uncomfortable. Maybe things are different in other places, I don't know, but that is certainly my experience in Britain. People push for more inclusion of visible or in-your-face queer identities not because they're better, but because they're the ones in danger of being squeezed out by a focus on respectability, marketability, and appealing to the straight world (for approval, involvement, advertising dollars, permits, whatever) that comes from Pride becoming more mainstream, and more commercialised. The same processes that are behind the erasure of a lot of other sections of the queer community lead to active hostility to certain kinds of visible but not carnival-vibe enough people, even from Pride organisations.
Or, I guess, I see anyone who isn't a canonically beautiful queer person doing their canonically queer thing in an expected and advertiser-safe way as being in this together, against the ties of respectability politics and gentrification.
posted by Dysk at 10:04 PM on June 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
I'm not comfortable with being called "performative" because I honestly never could figure all the little tells that triggered anti-gay violence when I was an adolescent. I seem to have grown out of them, or maybe I just grew out of an environment where harassment is routine. I've had the experience of being accused of "performance" when the only thing that changed was that I said, "hey, I'm bi."
The "performance" for me is picking my entire week-day wardrobe around the principle of minimizing harassment.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:32 AM on June 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
The "performance" for me is picking my entire week-day wardrobe around the principle of minimizing harassment.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:32 AM on June 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
For those aspects that are "performative," so what? Holiday clothing is a big part of what defines a holiday around the world. You see straight people doing it for every sacred and secular holiday, and a large number of sporting and fan events as well. On my to-do- list for this week is to order a custom t-shirt for a family birthday. Most people who cutch their pearls at some aspects of holiday clothing fully embrace others. (Bad: Sexy Santa, Good: Ugly Christmas Sweater)
What other people wear for pride isn't a commentary on what you wear at pride. Granted my experience has been smaller city events, but there's room for everyone. And from experience, you can't necessarily assume that the t-shirt and jeans person trying to be invisible in the background really wants to be invisible either.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:53 AM on June 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
What other people wear for pride isn't a commentary on what you wear at pride. Granted my experience has been smaller city events, but there's room for everyone. And from experience, you can't necessarily assume that the t-shirt and jeans person trying to be invisible in the background really wants to be invisible either.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:53 AM on June 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Please don't do this. You didn't call his friend "an entirely average teenage girl who happens to be black." Straight boys/men might be the majority but they're not the default "average." Did you mean "it's not immediately apparent that he's gay"? That's also... not great.
Oh! I meant that in as a response to people talking about Pride becoming focused on particular types of gay culture, which I referenced later in my comment, but yeah, that came across very poorly. I'm sorry about that.
posted by Ruki at 7:40 AM on June 25, 2018
Oh! I meant that in as a response to people talking about Pride becoming focused on particular types of gay culture, which I referenced later in my comment, but yeah, that came across very poorly. I'm sorry about that.
posted by Ruki at 7:40 AM on June 25, 2018
It kills me that those of you who are highly-performative are considered better and more important and more legitimately queer than little old erased me.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:17 PM on June 24 [4 favorites +] [!]
No, actually, it doesn't kill you to be overlooked (by who, exactly? There's lots of talk of feeling left out but no talk of who is actually leaving people out), but it in fact does, quite ltierally, kill trans folk who get clocked, or butch lesbians in rural towns, or anyone else who isn't "normal" enough for mainstream society.
I'm sorry, but I cannot take seriously any sort of conversation about visibility that is entirely focused on being "queer enough", while completely disregarding the fact that the other side of that reality is not actually any sort of privilege. visibility is not a privilege.
posted by FirstMateKate at 8:32 AM on June 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 11:17 PM on June 24 [4 favorites +] [!]
No, actually, it doesn't kill you to be overlooked (by who, exactly? There's lots of talk of feeling left out but no talk of who is actually leaving people out), but it in fact does, quite ltierally, kill trans folk who get clocked, or butch lesbians in rural towns, or anyone else who isn't "normal" enough for mainstream society.
I'm sorry, but I cannot take seriously any sort of conversation about visibility that is entirely focused on being "queer enough", while completely disregarding the fact that the other side of that reality is not actually any sort of privilege. visibility is not a privilege.
posted by FirstMateKate at 8:32 AM on June 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
Can we agree that there's not enough celebration of those of us who are obviously queer and also not enough celebration of those of us who blend in and are wrongly perceived by others as non-queer?
We have, as The Queers collectively, including all the various ways one can be sexually or romantically or gender-wise "different", been given, functionally, one party. I mean, there are a lot of separately planned events, but all of it comes under this umbrella of Pride. And like anything else that wants to be everything to everybody, it sucks at that. I mean, it can welcome anybody who wants under the umbrella, it can be an enormous umbrella, but if you were hoping to find kinship or specific kinds of personal expression or whatever under that umbrella, the more groups that are there, the harder it is to find the other people who are Like You. I'm totally cool with poly people having a place at Pride, for example, but straight poly people are perfectly nice but they aren't My Tribe in that particular way I expected, when I was younger, that I would find there. I don't think that means they shouldn't be at Pride, but I do wonder where I'm supposed to go to meet people who are going to Get Me.
It's like the problem of Black History Month being one month and then confining all the Black history to that month and then mostly ignoring it the rest of the time. If every vaguely marginalized group on several different axes gets only the one party, the problem isn't that it's too inclusive, the problem is that we ought to have more parties. And more things that aren't parties. We ought to have the rest of the year, too, to exist together but also exist separately.
posted by Sequence at 8:52 AM on June 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
We have, as The Queers collectively, including all the various ways one can be sexually or romantically or gender-wise "different", been given, functionally, one party. I mean, there are a lot of separately planned events, but all of it comes under this umbrella of Pride. And like anything else that wants to be everything to everybody, it sucks at that. I mean, it can welcome anybody who wants under the umbrella, it can be an enormous umbrella, but if you were hoping to find kinship or specific kinds of personal expression or whatever under that umbrella, the more groups that are there, the harder it is to find the other people who are Like You. I'm totally cool with poly people having a place at Pride, for example, but straight poly people are perfectly nice but they aren't My Tribe in that particular way I expected, when I was younger, that I would find there. I don't think that means they shouldn't be at Pride, but I do wonder where I'm supposed to go to meet people who are going to Get Me.
It's like the problem of Black History Month being one month and then confining all the Black history to that month and then mostly ignoring it the rest of the time. If every vaguely marginalized group on several different axes gets only the one party, the problem isn't that it's too inclusive, the problem is that we ought to have more parties. And more things that aren't parties. We ought to have the rest of the year, too, to exist together but also exist separately.
posted by Sequence at 8:52 AM on June 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
No, actually, it doesn't kill you to be overlooked (by who, exactly? There's lots of talk of feeling left out but no talk of who is actually leaving people out), but it in fact does, quite ltierally, kill trans folk who get clocked, or butch lesbians in rural towns, or anyone else who isn't "normal" enough for mainstream society.
Look, I've been both. When I came out I was a long-haired femme-by default woman, having spent the best part of a decade being slowly Eliza Doolittled by a very straight boyfriend. I'm now somewhere on the soft-butch/androgynous/non-binary part of the spectrum and yes, I have copped the street harassment that that entails. (I acknowledge that visibly trans folks face even greater risks). Both visibility and invisibility can be fucking miserable.
Being invisible and "feeling left out" might not get you beaten up or killed, but it can damage your mental health so badly that the outcomes can be similar. LGBTIQ folks seek refuge in community because the straight world isn't always safe or affirming. When that community doesn't see and support us, we suffer an additional trauma of having no safe place where we can be fully seen and supported. While it was societally sanctioned homophobia that sent me into the closet in my teens, it was the exclusionary behaviour of (some) gay and lesbian folks that made coming out years later so damn hard.
Some years back, when this stuff was still raw for me, I described it like this:
posted by embrangled at 3:45 AM on June 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
Look, I've been both. When I came out I was a long-haired femme-by default woman, having spent the best part of a decade being slowly Eliza Doolittled by a very straight boyfriend. I'm now somewhere on the soft-butch/androgynous/non-binary part of the spectrum and yes, I have copped the street harassment that that entails. (I acknowledge that visibly trans folks face even greater risks). Both visibility and invisibility can be fucking miserable.
Being invisible and "feeling left out" might not get you beaten up or killed, but it can damage your mental health so badly that the outcomes can be similar. LGBTIQ folks seek refuge in community because the straight world isn't always safe or affirming. When that community doesn't see and support us, we suffer an additional trauma of having no safe place where we can be fully seen and supported. While it was societally sanctioned homophobia that sent me into the closet in my teens, it was the exclusionary behaviour of (some) gay and lesbian folks that made coming out years later so damn hard.
Some years back, when this stuff was still raw for me, I described it like this:
It's as though the only way to get to that safe, queer place where my identity is finally "okay" is to declare huge chunks of my life (the times when when I have loved and fucked men) to be somehow a lie - weird aberrations on the way to an appropriately pure gay identity. Fuck that. I'm really, really Queer and it is quite unlikely I will ever date a straight man again, but I still feel so fucking unsafe in lesbian culture that I have no idea how to connect with other women and be visible as who I actually am. Coming out as bi or Queer or anything less than unambiguously gay can feel like jumping off a burning boat, swimming to shore, breathing a sigh of relief and then realising that the riverbank is patrolled by snarling wolves.I feel differently now, but it took years. And the invisibility only sort of solved itself for me because I naturally tended toward androgyny - that doesn't happen for everyone. Please can we just be fucking kind to each other, instead of policing our edges so ferociously? The edges of our communities aren't battle-lines - they're how people get in. I would much rather they were messy and blurry and safe for anyone making the leap.
posted by embrangled at 3:45 AM on June 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
Related, Slate is running a special issue on passing. 9 articles so far.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:35 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:35 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Very late to this party, but... Yes. All of this.
I sit in the weird place of being someone whose primary cultural identity will probably always be asexual, and who primarily deals with invisibility within that identity, but also who day to day often passes as a butch lesbian and primarily deals with hostility within that one.
Let me just say: they both fucking suck. But at least with hostility you can find friends. You're not so isolated and alone. That isn't the case with invisibility. That's why, for example, bi cis folks actually have a higher suicide rate than gay ones. Looking like you're one thing while being another and being rejected frequently when you do out yourself--which is what invisibility means--is kind of like being forcibly closeted forever. You never quite get to relax and lean on solidarity.
I came out to my (cis, gay, older) boss about five years ago today, and his reaction was a very sympathetic expression of horror and grief for me. That's been my response a lot--and I mean, I was driven off Tumblr for asexuality reasons in 2012, I have plenty of trauma on that scale too.
For me, then, going to Pride is always less like coming home and more like quietly yelling "I belong here too!" And like. I get really frustrated with City Pride because I can't tell if there's anyone in solidarity with me on this floats. When Apple trundles two hundred identically dressed white-shorted employees past me as I stand in the crush of crowds, I don't know if I'm who those marches stand for.
I find I vastly prefer marches to parades. I would rather walk shoulder to shoulder with my community, shouting together in joy and annoying all of downtown, than I want to sit on the sidelines and be told what messages celebrate my community. I would be delighted if that's what pride looked like. No allies except maybe PFLAG; everyone marching along being assumed to be community members no matter what they look like, without having to pay to play.
posted by sciatrix at 3:08 PM on June 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I sit in the weird place of being someone whose primary cultural identity will probably always be asexual, and who primarily deals with invisibility within that identity, but also who day to day often passes as a butch lesbian and primarily deals with hostility within that one.
Let me just say: they both fucking suck. But at least with hostility you can find friends. You're not so isolated and alone. That isn't the case with invisibility. That's why, for example, bi cis folks actually have a higher suicide rate than gay ones. Looking like you're one thing while being another and being rejected frequently when you do out yourself--which is what invisibility means--is kind of like being forcibly closeted forever. You never quite get to relax and lean on solidarity.
I came out to my (cis, gay, older) boss about five years ago today, and his reaction was a very sympathetic expression of horror and grief for me. That's been my response a lot--and I mean, I was driven off Tumblr for asexuality reasons in 2012, I have plenty of trauma on that scale too.
For me, then, going to Pride is always less like coming home and more like quietly yelling "I belong here too!" And like. I get really frustrated with City Pride because I can't tell if there's anyone in solidarity with me on this floats. When Apple trundles two hundred identically dressed white-shorted employees past me as I stand in the crush of crowds, I don't know if I'm who those marches stand for.
I find I vastly prefer marches to parades. I would rather walk shoulder to shoulder with my community, shouting together in joy and annoying all of downtown, than I want to sit on the sidelines and be told what messages celebrate my community. I would be delighted if that's what pride looked like. No allies except maybe PFLAG; everyone marching along being assumed to be community members no matter what they look like, without having to pay to play.
posted by sciatrix at 3:08 PM on June 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
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“Being out at a festival is just too expensive for some people...The economics of being out at Pride relies on the old idea that all gay people are rich, and as we know, this isn’t true. It gets really hard when your idea of gay is attached to expensive product placement.”
Mainstream Pride isn't my scene, so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but—could someone spell things out for me? What exactly is expensive? The right clothes? The right coif? The right body? Because later in the article, the author talks about rainbow paint and white tank tops, which...don't sound costly to me. I always understood that the reason to avoid mainstream Pride was that it's normative and corporate, not that it's expensive.
posted by the_blizz at 6:19 PM on June 23, 2018 [7 favorites]