Getting men off ledges
June 26, 2018 1:26 PM Subscribe
Lethal Weapon is a cop show about the literally explosive fallout of men excusing themselves from the work of being emotionally productive in the shadow of their survival.It’s exactly the kind of story men don’t need. By Brandon O’Brien.
I've never seen the show, but it reads like a male version of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, which really ratcheted up the crazy this last season. But with explosions instead of songs like "I Go to the Zoo".
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:38 PM on June 26, 2018
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:38 PM on June 26, 2018
Good article. Thank you.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:56 PM on June 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:56 PM on June 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
On a related Manpain TV subject: Netflix's THE PUNISHER Fails to Say Something New About Violence
Arguably Ennis's stuff is "exactly the kind of story men don’t need" as well but it does go beyond mawkish manpain and into toxic masculinity straight up making monsters.
(Doesn't necessarily translate to his TV products)
posted by Artw at 3:02 PM on June 26, 2018
Arguably Ennis's stuff is "exactly the kind of story men don’t need" as well but it does go beyond mawkish manpain and into toxic masculinity straight up making monsters.
(Doesn't necessarily translate to his TV products)
posted by Artw at 3:02 PM on June 26, 2018
1. The quoted sentence took me a couple of (okay, FOUR) read-throughs to fully grasp what it was saying. Hey, it’s six nested prepositional phrases, after all! Nevertheless, when it clicked, I thought, holy damn, that’s totally right!
2. I had not, at that moment, realized there was a television show, and thought it was referring to the films, and particularly the first one. Which got me to thinking about how Mel Gibson was portraying Riggs, a seriously messed up individual who is never really held accountable in the movies for working through his trauma. We see him suffering from it, but never coming to grips with it. The gunplay, the explosions, the daredevil stunts - they all act as substitution for, or perhaps sublimation of, the emotional trauma he is experiencing. Sure, they’re action movies, and we don’t ask that much from action movies, but maybe we should, and there are more layers to this than I’ve been used to considering.
3. Then I started reading the article, and was confused. Then it made sense. But I still think about all of the multifacetedly broken, problematic on SO many layers, action fare I’ve just swallowed over the decades without thinking too much beyond the standard “toxic masculinity is toxic” superficial conclusions. (Oh, god, Clint Eastwood, you’re totally a mess inside, aren’t you?)
4. To summarize—no, there’s no time—let me sum up: thought-provoking article, thank you!
posted by darkstar at 3:05 PM on June 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
2. I had not, at that moment, realized there was a television show, and thought it was referring to the films, and particularly the first one. Which got me to thinking about how Mel Gibson was portraying Riggs, a seriously messed up individual who is never really held accountable in the movies for working through his trauma. We see him suffering from it, but never coming to grips with it. The gunplay, the explosions, the daredevil stunts - they all act as substitution for, or perhaps sublimation of, the emotional trauma he is experiencing. Sure, they’re action movies, and we don’t ask that much from action movies, but maybe we should, and there are more layers to this than I’ve been used to considering.
3. Then I started reading the article, and was confused. Then it made sense. But I still think about all of the multifacetedly broken, problematic on SO many layers, action fare I’ve just swallowed over the decades without thinking too much beyond the standard “toxic masculinity is toxic” superficial conclusions. (Oh, god, Clint Eastwood, you’re totally a mess inside, aren’t you?)
4. To summarize—no, there’s no time—let me sum up: thought-provoking article, thank you!
posted by darkstar at 3:05 PM on June 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Reflecting on this a little more...I have a friend who served in Vietnam when he was 19. When he talks about the aftereffects of his time in combat, all I can think is: That's trauma. He has had so much--too much--advice from the tradition of toxic masculinity, and has shame related to the way he was brought up ("Don't talk about it," "Men don't cry," "Buck up," and etc.) to think about how to handle upsetting events, and I think it caught him by surprise when I didn't respond in that vein. (Thank you, MetaFilter, for teaching me to be more compassionate.) I handed him Bessel van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma, because I hope it will help him re-frame his experiences, but I don't have a solid mass cultural product (a show, a movie, something) to offer as a model for working through it on a daily basis. Is there one? Because it's needed.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:20 PM on June 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:20 PM on June 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
This reminds me of why I hate Good Will Hunting. I watched it and went that's it? That's your big hurt? And everyone is taking this seriously, like this excuses him being an asshole to other people? Men in general are allowed to express their trauma externally for a lot longer. Flip the genders and no woman would hold a job or any social standing for being that angry and cruel. We make allowances for men's pain and accommodate their discomfort.
And the article is right - long term, that's a tragedy for the men too. I hugely appreciate the slightly better role models my sons have now. And men in pain need tenderness and support - but it's got to come from other men or themselves. And go to women too. The social math is fucked up otherwise, overvaluing male feelings.
I really hated that film.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:27 PM on June 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
And the article is right - long term, that's a tragedy for the men too. I hugely appreciate the slightly better role models my sons have now. And men in pain need tenderness and support - but it's got to come from other men or themselves. And go to women too. The social math is fucked up otherwise, overvaluing male feelings.
I really hated that film.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:27 PM on June 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
I dunno. Riggs is working through it, though, by finding interpersonal relationships he cares about. He finds it in a scary and fucked up way, but by the third movie, Joe Pesci is the harmlessly weird uncle everyone likes but wishes would stop telling jokes he learned from the back of Bazooka Joe comics. Everyone is grimacing and chest thrusting, sure, but it was the '80s, and they're doing it together and embracing found family...
Waitaminit.
What. What. What do you mean TV show "reboot?" Let me read further into the article...
Well, Murtaugh is a woman, naturally, because of all the emotional heavy lifting I assume this Murtaugh does like in the movies.
Bury it in the catbox. It's garbage too hot for the trashcan.
I couldn't even finish this, not because its wrong, but because, man, how do you come back from knowledge that unwanted?
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:28 PM on June 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Waitaminit.
What. What. What do you mean TV show "reboot?" Let me read further into the article...
Well, Murtaugh is a woman, naturally, because of all the emotional heavy lifting I assume this Murtaugh does like in the movies.
Bury it in the catbox. It's garbage too hot for the trashcan.
I couldn't even finish this, not because its wrong, but because, man, how do you come back from knowledge that unwanted?
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:28 PM on June 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
A character who successfully confronts his trauma & atones for the collateral damage he's caused? Luke Effin Skywalker.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 5:42 PM on June 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 5:42 PM on June 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
Mark Hamill Cites His Generation’s ‘Failure’ As Inspiration For Luke Skywalker’s ‘Star Wars’ Arc
posted by Artw at 6:20 PM on June 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:20 PM on June 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Well, Murtaugh is a woman, naturally, because of all the emotional heavy lifting I assume this Murtaugh does like in the movies.
What?
I watched a few episodes of this. Seemed okay, not great. Interested to see what the article has to say about it since the show is pretty bludgeon-you-over-the-head about Riggs and the people around him having negative consequences due to him not dealing with his issues in a healthy way.
Interestingly, Damon Wayans, who plays Murtaugh on the show, was 56 when the pilot aired, compared to Danny Glover's 40 when Lethal Weapon the movie came out. Well, interesting to me anyway. Too old for this shit, indeed.
posted by ODiV at 6:47 PM on June 26, 2018
What?
I watched a few episodes of this. Seemed okay, not great. Interested to see what the article has to say about it since the show is pretty bludgeon-you-over-the-head about Riggs and the people around him having negative consequences due to him not dealing with his issues in a healthy way.
Interestingly, Damon Wayans, who plays Murtaugh on the show, was 56 when the pilot aired, compared to Danny Glover's 40 when Lethal Weapon the movie came out. Well, interesting to me anyway. Too old for this shit, indeed.
posted by ODiV at 6:47 PM on June 26, 2018
I should have said that's what the show was doing when I watched the few episodes I did. Could have gone in a wildly different direction, obviously.
posted by ODiV at 6:49 PM on June 26, 2018
posted by ODiV at 6:49 PM on June 26, 2018
On a related Manpain TV subject: Netflix's THE PUNISHER Fails to Say Something New About Violence
Not to derail the thread but that is a really shallow, lazy interpretation of The Punisher. The show had its flaws, for sure (they would have been better off avoiding gun control altogether rather than touching on it so briefly-yet-hamfistedly, for one) but it had a lot to say about PTSD and about men asking for, and getting, help from other people. I think it's an incredibly difficult tightrope to walk, to be a show that will appeal to deep-in-toxic-masculinity men and win them over, yet also gently lead them to question some aspects of that, and I think The Punisher walked that tightrope amazingly well. I'm not sure if it's quite what you're looking for, MonkeyToes, but it helped one Mefite, which more than makes up for the show's imperfections as far as I'm concerned.
posted by mstokes650 at 7:24 PM on June 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Not to derail the thread but that is a really shallow, lazy interpretation of The Punisher. The show had its flaws, for sure (they would have been better off avoiding gun control altogether rather than touching on it so briefly-yet-hamfistedly, for one) but it had a lot to say about PTSD and about men asking for, and getting, help from other people. I think it's an incredibly difficult tightrope to walk, to be a show that will appeal to deep-in-toxic-masculinity men and win them over, yet also gently lead them to question some aspects of that, and I think The Punisher walked that tightrope amazingly well. I'm not sure if it's quite what you're looking for, MonkeyToes, but it helped one Mefite, which more than makes up for the show's imperfections as far as I'm concerned.
posted by mstokes650 at 7:24 PM on June 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Slap*Happy: Well, Murtaugh is a woman, naturally, because of all the emotional heavy lifting I assume this Murtaugh does like in the movies.
I have no fucking idea why you think Murtaugh is a woman in the TV show. Murtaugh is played by Damon Wayans.
Maybe if you want to tell us all to "bury it in the catbox," know what you're demanding we bury.
I couldn't even finish this, not because its wrong, but because, man, how do you come back from knowledge that unwanted?
I don't know. How do you come back from being snide about something you got 100% wrong?
posted by tzikeh at 11:09 PM on June 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I have no fucking idea why you think Murtaugh is a woman in the TV show. Murtaugh is played by Damon Wayans.
Maybe if you want to tell us all to "bury it in the catbox," know what you're demanding we bury.
I couldn't even finish this, not because its wrong, but because, man, how do you come back from knowledge that unwanted?
I don't know. How do you come back from being snide about something you got 100% wrong?
posted by tzikeh at 11:09 PM on June 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
We make allowances for men's pain and accommodate their discomfort. (...) The social math is fucked up otherwise, overvaluing male feelings.
I would ask you to read MonkeyToes' comment about their veteran friend for an example of the way that male feelings are not "overvalued" in our society. Rigid gender roles suck for everybody.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:14 AM on June 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I would ask you to read MonkeyToes' comment about their veteran friend for an example of the way that male feelings are not "overvalued" in our society. Rigid gender roles suck for everybody.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:14 AM on June 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
"After adjusting for differences in age, risk for suicide was 19 percent higher among male Veterans when compared to U.S. non-Veteran adult men. After adjusting for differences in age, risk for suicide was 2.5 times higher among female Veterans when compared to U.S. non-Veteran adult women" source
Yes, in individual cases like my sons who I love dearly and hope are growing into feminist young men, and several wonderful make friends who have experienced trauma and damage and confronted their demons with compassion and courage, their pain makes my heart break.
But socially, collectively? Men need to go to the back of the queue for a while and do some damn heavy lifting. The math has been stacked for their pain to be absorbed and accomodated by others so they don't have to deal with the consequences.
And that is bad for men too longterm. This leads to lives that aren't pain free, but pain delayed, pain buried and exploded.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:44 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yes, in individual cases like my sons who I love dearly and hope are growing into feminist young men, and several wonderful make friends who have experienced trauma and damage and confronted their demons with compassion and courage, their pain makes my heart break.
But socially, collectively? Men need to go to the back of the queue for a while and do some damn heavy lifting. The math has been stacked for their pain to be absorbed and accomodated by others so they don't have to deal with the consequences.
And that is bad for men too longterm. This leads to lives that aren't pain free, but pain delayed, pain buried and exploded.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:44 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
"After adjusting for differences in age, risk for suicide was 19 percent higher among male Veterans when compared to U.S. non-Veteran adult men. After adjusting for differences in age, risk for suicide was 2.5 times higher among female Veterans when compared to U.S. non-Veteran adult women" source .
Forgive my inability to parse the above, but when they say 19% higher and 2.5 times higher, are they actually saying 19% and 250% higher respectively?
posted by Thella at 4:08 AM on June 27, 2018
Forgive my inability to parse the above, but when they say 19% higher and 2.5 times higher, are they actually saying 19% and 250% higher respectively?
posted by Thella at 4:08 AM on June 27, 2018
Lethal Weapon is really only exploring one of multiple narratives about trauma, and one that I would argue is the failure condition, the point where the normal path of dealing with trauma breaks down and we're asked to pity. The men in my family dealt with the traumas of poverty, broken homes, and wartime service through rigid stoicism, an excessive work ethic, and being "too busy" to deal with any of their health concerns. That also has its costs. I'm always a bit nonplussed when tv drama is used to say, "hey, this is what's wrong with America" when drama is made to be dramatic.
Along those lines, I've been mulling over the mess that's Marcella for the last few weeks, and came to the conclusion that many shows rely on keeping main characters perpetually dysfunctional, because dealing with problems would take away key points of conflict. There are exceptions. Parks and Rec started with a set of characters who were intentionally brought together to be incompetent, and somehow they all got better. Crime drama especially seems stuck in the mode of perpetual dysfunction with the arguable exception of Elementary's explicit negotiation of recovery (for both Holmes and Joan, although Joan's is more subtle over time). Shetland might be another exception. But I get tired of seeing the same perpetually broody detectives in different cities.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 6:09 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Along those lines, I've been mulling over the mess that's Marcella for the last few weeks, and came to the conclusion that many shows rely on keeping main characters perpetually dysfunctional, because dealing with problems would take away key points of conflict. There are exceptions. Parks and Rec started with a set of characters who were intentionally brought together to be incompetent, and somehow they all got better. Crime drama especially seems stuck in the mode of perpetual dysfunction with the arguable exception of Elementary's explicit negotiation of recovery (for both Holmes and Joan, although Joan's is more subtle over time). Shetland might be another exception. But I get tired of seeing the same perpetually broody detectives in different cities.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 6:09 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
The women also in my family. Dealing with trauma through complete denial is both a matrilineal and patrilineal tradition, to the point that I'm just now finding out about some cousins who had been erased to that end.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:05 AM on June 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:05 AM on June 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I actually thought Deadpool 2 was another pretty solid example of a man dealing with trauma beyond just digging further into gritty-ass Vengeance: what do you do when there's nothing left that violence can bring you? (And when suicide is definitely not an answer, either.) I was impressed with it on that level.
I'm not really interested here with arguing about whether men have it worse or better than women, not when as GenderNullPointerException points out it's startlingly difficult to find narratives of men exploring trauma and how to deal with that trauma in ways that aren't the failure condition. That seems to be the go-to! The superhero genre is also a frequent offender. But in general, like... I'm trying actively to think of places where male characters have Bad Things happen to them and process those bad things without depending on women. Avatar: The Last Airbender's Prince Zuko did a good job of that arc, I think; I also like it because it has something else you don't see often in media, which is a male character actively relying on another male character for emotional support, validation, and help processing things... even when female characters are present and potentially available. That's really nice.
I want to see more men working through a success mode of trauma, because those stories provide templates to real men trying to figure this out. It's hard when there isn't much focus on people becoming less dysfunctional in stories, especially when the stories tend to end if they succeed. Problems don't end for us when we become less dysfunctional and care about one another! And I want men to have models for how to do that and how to lean on each other for support as they do so, not just on women. As it is, I think this is the main narrative I do see in men who wind up trying to process trauma in another way, and I think many women get justifiably frustrated with being preferentially chosen as trauma helpers.
posted by sciatrix at 7:57 AM on June 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm not really interested here with arguing about whether men have it worse or better than women, not when as GenderNullPointerException points out it's startlingly difficult to find narratives of men exploring trauma and how to deal with that trauma in ways that aren't the failure condition. That seems to be the go-to! The superhero genre is also a frequent offender. But in general, like... I'm trying actively to think of places where male characters have Bad Things happen to them and process those bad things without depending on women. Avatar: The Last Airbender's Prince Zuko did a good job of that arc, I think; I also like it because it has something else you don't see often in media, which is a male character actively relying on another male character for emotional support, validation, and help processing things... even when female characters are present and potentially available. That's really nice.
I want to see more men working through a success mode of trauma, because those stories provide templates to real men trying to figure this out. It's hard when there isn't much focus on people becoming less dysfunctional in stories, especially when the stories tend to end if they succeed. Problems don't end for us when we become less dysfunctional and care about one another! And I want men to have models for how to do that and how to lean on each other for support as they do so, not just on women. As it is, I think this is the main narrative I do see in men who wind up trying to process trauma in another way, and I think many women get justifiably frustrated with being preferentially chosen as trauma helpers.
posted by sciatrix at 7:57 AM on June 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
Thella, 19% and 250%, yes.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:04 AM on June 27, 2018
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:04 AM on June 27, 2018
Argh, I'm now looking at the full study with the chart - it's 25% to 19%. U.S. male vets are generally 1.5x more at risk over the last decade, while U.S. female vets varied between 1.6x-2.4x over the same time. (Pg 46 of source)
Apologies for the incorrect read of 2.5x relative risk, and what is sliding into a derail here from a really interesting essay.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:15 AM on June 27, 2018
Apologies for the incorrect read of 2.5x relative risk, and what is sliding into a derail here from a really interesting essay.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:15 AM on June 27, 2018
Yeah, like I said--I think comparing men's problems with trauma to women's is something of a derail. If you want men's trauma not to become a burden, you need to help men find tools to help them carry it on their own. Stories, television, books, movies--those are actually one of the best tools we have for showing people how to handle emotional trauma, because they're so easily accessible. That's why it's so troubling to see so much media centering men who cope with trauma by, well... refusing to do the work of actually grappling with that trauma and hurting other people in the process.
I think that if you want men who are suffering to be able to take care of their own trauma and engage in the type of reflective emotional work that we're asking for, we need to be able to have conversations that center men's issues without derailing them into women's comparative pain. If there's no dedicated space to talk about this and to talk about what it means to be a man who is grappling with trauma--particularly sexual trauma, which is a specific area in which men do not receive enough support--then you wind up with men either inappropriately letting that trauma bleed off into places that are not appropriate (either because they're trying to handle it or because they aren't!) or you wind up with men trying to pretend nothing happened and erase it, which doesn't really work.
I think that's one of the key things the article is grappling with, particularly as it tries to understand how to handle the problem of men like Diaz. How do we provide support for men who are victims of trauma without excusing them for the ways in which they hurt others? How do we provide models of men helping each other do this kind of emotional processing and work? And how do we make those models accessible, so that men who are struggling know where they can go for support and that they can get that support without risking even more terrifying threats?
posted by sciatrix at 8:32 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think that if you want men who are suffering to be able to take care of their own trauma and engage in the type of reflective emotional work that we're asking for, we need to be able to have conversations that center men's issues without derailing them into women's comparative pain. If there's no dedicated space to talk about this and to talk about what it means to be a man who is grappling with trauma--particularly sexual trauma, which is a specific area in which men do not receive enough support--then you wind up with men either inappropriately letting that trauma bleed off into places that are not appropriate (either because they're trying to handle it or because they aren't!) or you wind up with men trying to pretend nothing happened and erase it, which doesn't really work.
I think that's one of the key things the article is grappling with, particularly as it tries to understand how to handle the problem of men like Diaz. How do we provide support for men who are victims of trauma without excusing them for the ways in which they hurt others? How do we provide models of men helping each other do this kind of emotional processing and work? And how do we make those models accessible, so that men who are struggling know where they can go for support and that they can get that support without risking even more terrifying threats?
posted by sciatrix at 8:32 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm trying actively to think of places where male characters have Bad Things happen to them and process those bad things without depending on women.
It's not THAT uncommon for teen dramas. Albeit those are usually marketed toward girls, so it's sort of like the male characters are made into avatars for the show's audience of predominantly girls and women.
Off the top of my head, the Winchesters on Supernatural are constantly working through traumas/feelings together, Klaus on the Originals (who has leaned mostly on his brother but who did have a therapist/girlfriend for a while there), Brandon on The Fosters, maybe Stefan in the Vampire Diaries. I wouldn't say any of them other than Brandon become "healthy and happy" per se by the end of their show's run, but they definitely work on themselves and deal with their feelings and histories in better and more sophisticated ways as the shows go on, and I would say that they're all in "perpetual growth" mode rather than in failure mode.
Another interesting kind of model for "failure mode" is Lex on Smallville. He tries hard, but he ends up in failure mode anyway.
I actually like Lethal Weapon and will keep watching it even since they decided to swap Sean Williams Scott for Clayne Crawford. I think the show went in the wrong direction emotionally when it hit a turning point with Riggs's trauma over losing his wife. Instead of letting Riggs deal with his loneliness and hopelessness in a relevant or grounded way, the show decided to make him into a violent vengeance superman and then dropped the story of him losing his wife altogether in favor of quasi-exploring long ago trauma at his dad's hands. In other words, once Riggs was past the most "cinematic" stages of grief, the show floundered and then retreated into toxic masculinity for the character rather than actual character growth or even exploration. Also speaking of male characters relying on women to do their character growth for them -- I also thought the psychologist character was really misused and a major problem for the show (she was used as a prop/apologist for Riggs).
posted by rue72 at 8:35 AM on June 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's not THAT uncommon for teen dramas. Albeit those are usually marketed toward girls, so it's sort of like the male characters are made into avatars for the show's audience of predominantly girls and women.
Off the top of my head, the Winchesters on Supernatural are constantly working through traumas/feelings together, Klaus on the Originals (who has leaned mostly on his brother but who did have a therapist/girlfriend for a while there), Brandon on The Fosters, maybe Stefan in the Vampire Diaries. I wouldn't say any of them other than Brandon become "healthy and happy" per se by the end of their show's run, but they definitely work on themselves and deal with their feelings and histories in better and more sophisticated ways as the shows go on, and I would say that they're all in "perpetual growth" mode rather than in failure mode.
Another interesting kind of model for "failure mode" is Lex on Smallville. He tries hard, but he ends up in failure mode anyway.
I actually like Lethal Weapon and will keep watching it even since they decided to swap Sean Williams Scott for Clayne Crawford. I think the show went in the wrong direction emotionally when it hit a turning point with Riggs's trauma over losing his wife. Instead of letting Riggs deal with his loneliness and hopelessness in a relevant or grounded way, the show decided to make him into a violent vengeance superman and then dropped the story of him losing his wife altogether in favor of quasi-exploring long ago trauma at his dad's hands. In other words, once Riggs was past the most "cinematic" stages of grief, the show floundered and then retreated into toxic masculinity for the character rather than actual character growth or even exploration. Also speaking of male characters relying on women to do their character growth for them -- I also thought the psychologist character was really misused and a major problem for the show (she was used as a prop/apologist for Riggs).
posted by rue72 at 8:35 AM on June 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Two positive examples that I touched on earlier, although not necessarily connected to trauma. There's an arc in Elementary where Holmes becomes less engaged with "the process" because it has become boring for him as the most intelligent person in the room. He comes to terms with the reality that he is never going to have a sober life without that work. And Christ Traeger on Parks and Rec comes to the realization that his enthusiasm is masking depression, and he needs to work on himself before it further disrupts the lives of people he cares about.
They're not perfect characters but they are characters who grow through a commitment to caring for their own mental health.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:46 AM on June 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
They're not perfect characters but they are characters who grow through a commitment to caring for their own mental health.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:46 AM on June 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sure, they’re action movies, and we don’t ask that much from action movies, but maybe we should, and there are more layers to this than I’ve been used to considering.
The first two Lethal Weapon movies are actually a good representation on the effects of isolation versus community for men in particular. It takes Riggs being suicidal in front of Murtaugh for the latter to take it seriously; you see the effects in their physical contact at the end of the movie, and how Murtaugh’s family adopts Riggs as one of its own in the second. Murtaugh uses his griping to conceal how sensitive and astute he really is, which is something else I’ve seen people do when they need a cover for themselves.
I adore those first two movies. The third has some commentary on tough guys and “nerd” types, but it’s not as resonant.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:54 AM on June 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
The first two Lethal Weapon movies are actually a good representation on the effects of isolation versus community for men in particular. It takes Riggs being suicidal in front of Murtaugh for the latter to take it seriously; you see the effects in their physical contact at the end of the movie, and how Murtaugh’s family adopts Riggs as one of its own in the second. Murtaugh uses his griping to conceal how sensitive and astute he really is, which is something else I’ve seen people do when they need a cover for themselves.
I adore those first two movies. The third has some commentary on tough guys and “nerd” types, but it’s not as resonant.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:54 AM on June 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
And Christ Traeger on Parks and Rec comes to the realization that his enthusiasm is masking depression, and he needs to work on himself before it further disrupts the lives of people he cares about.
Oh yeah! I love that Chris Treager arc! And Christ Treager as a character! OK enough with the exclamation marks, I know. :P
posted by rue72 at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh yeah! I love that Chris Treager arc! And Christ Treager as a character! OK enough with the exclamation marks, I know. :P
posted by rue72 at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
This reminds me of why I hate Good Will Hunting. I watched it and went that's it? That's your big hurt? And everyone is taking this seriously, like this excuses him being an asshole to other people? Men in general are allowed to express their trauma externally for a lot longer.
Will in GWH was 20 when the movie starts. Riggs at least is in his 30s. I don't think its a fair comparison.
GWH actually spoke to me. I was a lot like Will - not a supergenius, but punching far above my weight intellectually, given my background. A came from an abusive home, got the shit routinely kicked out of me in school. Grew up in pretty stark (american level) poverty with the abuse/bullying in addition to the routine background level of violence that comes with that sort of poverty.
By the time I was 18, I was a pretty fucked up person. Petty crimes, violence, attachment issues. All of it. It was sort of amazing how well written and acted Will was, because, it was... sort of a documentary. I was six when I carved my name into the dining room table. My mom used the knife to cut my palms open. She didn't take me to the doctor - she sutured them herself at home, slapping me every time I squirmed from pain. I went a palm reader one time with friends and he looked at mine and said - "you had a really fucked up childhood, didn't you?" I'll show you the scars sometime, if we are ever out for beers.
To be sure, this wasn't a one off. A stressed out harried mom losing her shit one time. I have more examples.
I know. Silly manpain. Still, you learn early and often that trust fails and then what do you have ? There's a reason why Will wants to stay with his friends, not just in location, but also in Socio Economic Status. They're the only ones who haven't betrayed him yet and he knows the rules where he is.
While I'm at it - The movie plays Chuckie and crew as loyal, but... that can't hold. I know, because those are my people. The movie hints at this with the masturbation scene. My best friend - the guy I had known and trusted more than anyone else, slept with the mother of my child while I was out fighting forest fires. An acquaintance of mine committed a mass shooting at a house party, killing three other people I knew. I missed the carnage by a and hour or so, fortunately - but I was at that party that night.
Point I'm trying to make is that if you belong to a certain SES, violence and personal betrayal are part of how it works. So many people are there because they are broken themselves - and some level of emotional or physical carnage is unavoidable. Not that rich people are necessarily better, but its easier to insulate yourself.
Within that framework, GWH is well written and accurate. Will can't escape - how can someone with trust issues that deep ever hope to establish himself in a new strata with new rules? Look, he's young and strong enough to fight, and fight well, and smart enough to avoid the most serious consequences where he is at. Better to be a big fish in a little and familiar pond than to risk it in a larger pool full of bigger fish.
That matches my experience, and I totally get where he's coming from. I graduated, barely, from high school, despite scoring very highly on the ACT/SAT and so on. Because of the abuse and bullying, my first relationships were marred by severe trust and communication issues. There was drinking and fights and all of that. I even got stabbed in a bar fight. It took years and years to get myself straight. It took longer to forgive my parents and my teachers and all the other adults who should have helped and did not. And here I am, almost 50 and I have dodged every opportunity to move up the SES ladder, because, well, I am afraid to*.
That part of GWH is unrealistic. 4-5 meetings, some hugging and crying and YOURE ALL BETTER. Meh. It's a movie. But yeah, you don't come from a background like that and not be fucked up well beyond a few short shrink meets.
I thought I had forgiven my parents for what they had done and did not do. But, as I get older, and realize that I'm still fucked up. I'm almost 50. I'm going to die fucked up and if I aint right now, I will never be right. I am angry anew at them. And that's hard - because they're 70+ and... my mom is a frail old grandmother who would never now do the things that she had done then. And, mostly, I want to be done with anger.
The thing I feel most is tired. Why does everything have to be such a goddamned fight ?
Men are never allowed to be angry. There's reasons - and they are good, sure. But, never. I wasn't allowed as a child, and when I got bigger than mom, and dad got out of the Navy, he enforced the no anger rule with belt or switch. Later with fists. I have never been allowed to be angry. Not in the Marines. Not at work. Not at home. Not when my son is around. Not here, not there. Women can scream and hit and throw and cry and all that is perfectly acceptable. Men never can.
So, it comes out sideways.
And look. I don't want to be angry anymore. I never wanted to be angry, really. But it's always there. That pain. That distrust. That anger. As much as I want to forgive - I cannot possibly forget.
In GWH, he's shown that he can forgive and let go. Hug His Therapist and Go See About A Girl and things will be OK. That simple. It wasn't totally unrealistic in the near term. My 30s and 40s were that - the pain was in the background, but I was raising a son and building a career and.... anyway, it's the past, so its OK. Things were good, then.
But, it never goes away.
They should do a sequel to GWH, where he's in his 50s and still not fully right, and realizing that he will never be right and can never be right, and his anger that a lifetime of work and struggle and effort is meaningless in the face of a decade or two of relentless abuse as a child.
Because, as I've been learning, that's the truth. Treat your kids kindly, because you'll fuck them up for decades otherwise.
GWH was a good movie. It was the movie that showed me the power of seeing someone like yourself on the screen. Not that it matters, but, I'm sorry you found it unrealistic and stupid, because it really reached to me. It said that I wasn't the only one.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:43 PM on June 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Will in GWH was 20 when the movie starts. Riggs at least is in his 30s. I don't think its a fair comparison.
GWH actually spoke to me. I was a lot like Will - not a supergenius, but punching far above my weight intellectually, given my background. A came from an abusive home, got the shit routinely kicked out of me in school. Grew up in pretty stark (american level) poverty with the abuse/bullying in addition to the routine background level of violence that comes with that sort of poverty.
By the time I was 18, I was a pretty fucked up person. Petty crimes, violence, attachment issues. All of it. It was sort of amazing how well written and acted Will was, because, it was... sort of a documentary. I was six when I carved my name into the dining room table. My mom used the knife to cut my palms open. She didn't take me to the doctor - she sutured them herself at home, slapping me every time I squirmed from pain. I went a palm reader one time with friends and he looked at mine and said - "you had a really fucked up childhood, didn't you?" I'll show you the scars sometime, if we are ever out for beers.
To be sure, this wasn't a one off. A stressed out harried mom losing her shit one time. I have more examples.
I know. Silly manpain. Still, you learn early and often that trust fails and then what do you have ? There's a reason why Will wants to stay with his friends, not just in location, but also in Socio Economic Status. They're the only ones who haven't betrayed him yet and he knows the rules where he is.
While I'm at it - The movie plays Chuckie and crew as loyal, but... that can't hold. I know, because those are my people. The movie hints at this with the masturbation scene. My best friend - the guy I had known and trusted more than anyone else, slept with the mother of my child while I was out fighting forest fires. An acquaintance of mine committed a mass shooting at a house party, killing three other people I knew. I missed the carnage by a and hour or so, fortunately - but I was at that party that night.
Point I'm trying to make is that if you belong to a certain SES, violence and personal betrayal are part of how it works. So many people are there because they are broken themselves - and some level of emotional or physical carnage is unavoidable. Not that rich people are necessarily better, but its easier to insulate yourself.
Within that framework, GWH is well written and accurate. Will can't escape - how can someone with trust issues that deep ever hope to establish himself in a new strata with new rules? Look, he's young and strong enough to fight, and fight well, and smart enough to avoid the most serious consequences where he is at. Better to be a big fish in a little and familiar pond than to risk it in a larger pool full of bigger fish.
That matches my experience, and I totally get where he's coming from. I graduated, barely, from high school, despite scoring very highly on the ACT/SAT and so on. Because of the abuse and bullying, my first relationships were marred by severe trust and communication issues. There was drinking and fights and all of that. I even got stabbed in a bar fight. It took years and years to get myself straight. It took longer to forgive my parents and my teachers and all the other adults who should have helped and did not. And here I am, almost 50 and I have dodged every opportunity to move up the SES ladder, because, well, I am afraid to*.
That part of GWH is unrealistic. 4-5 meetings, some hugging and crying and YOURE ALL BETTER. Meh. It's a movie. But yeah, you don't come from a background like that and not be fucked up well beyond a few short shrink meets.
I thought I had forgiven my parents for what they had done and did not do. But, as I get older, and realize that I'm still fucked up. I'm almost 50. I'm going to die fucked up and if I aint right now, I will never be right. I am angry anew at them. And that's hard - because they're 70+ and... my mom is a frail old grandmother who would never now do the things that she had done then. And, mostly, I want to be done with anger.
The thing I feel most is tired. Why does everything have to be such a goddamned fight ?
Men are never allowed to be angry. There's reasons - and they are good, sure. But, never. I wasn't allowed as a child, and when I got bigger than mom, and dad got out of the Navy, he enforced the no anger rule with belt or switch. Later with fists. I have never been allowed to be angry. Not in the Marines. Not at work. Not at home. Not when my son is around. Not here, not there. Women can scream and hit and throw and cry and all that is perfectly acceptable. Men never can.
So, it comes out sideways.
And look. I don't want to be angry anymore. I never wanted to be angry, really. But it's always there. That pain. That distrust. That anger. As much as I want to forgive - I cannot possibly forget.
In GWH, he's shown that he can forgive and let go. Hug His Therapist and Go See About A Girl and things will be OK. That simple. It wasn't totally unrealistic in the near term. My 30s and 40s were that - the pain was in the background, but I was raising a son and building a career and.... anyway, it's the past, so its OK. Things were good, then.
But, it never goes away.
They should do a sequel to GWH, where he's in his 50s and still not fully right, and realizing that he will never be right and can never be right, and his anger that a lifetime of work and struggle and effort is meaningless in the face of a decade or two of relentless abuse as a child.
Because, as I've been learning, that's the truth. Treat your kids kindly, because you'll fuck them up for decades otherwise.
GWH was a good movie. It was the movie that showed me the power of seeing someone like yourself on the screen. Not that it matters, but, I'm sorry you found it unrealistic and stupid, because it really reached to me. It said that I wasn't the only one.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:43 PM on June 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Pogo_Fuzzbut, I'm glad it spoke to you. I had a violently abusive childhood and worked with and live with people with abuse that was shattering. Subjectively, pain is pain. But we still sort of know that the child weeping under a table with bruises and cuts is in more pain than the adult screaming at them because they don't want to deal with their emotions.
GWH was enormously successful. I can't even begin to imagine a film in which a girl gets to be as selfish, angry and then supported - Lady Bird came close, but it wasn't a wish fulfillment the way GWH is written as. Nothing as popular.
And bullshit men are never allowed to be angry. Men are constantly allowed to be angry and use the threat of their anger on other men and women.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 12:58 AM on June 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
GWH was enormously successful. I can't even begin to imagine a film in which a girl gets to be as selfish, angry and then supported - Lady Bird came close, but it wasn't a wish fulfillment the way GWH is written as. Nothing as popular.
And bullshit men are never allowed to be angry. Men are constantly allowed to be angry and use the threat of their anger on other men and women.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 12:58 AM on June 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
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Preach.
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:27 PM on June 26, 2018 [21 favorites]