gentrification complaints
June 29, 2018 12:49 PM Subscribe
They Played Dominoes Outside Their Apartment For Decades. Then The White People Moved In And Police Started Showing Up.
“This used to be a bad neighborhood.” Two areas of New York City that have recently gentrified have a corresponding high rate of quality-of-life complaints, which sometimes draw the police.
“This used to be a bad neighborhood.” Two areas of New York City that have recently gentrified have a corresponding high rate of quality-of-life complaints, which sometimes draw the police.
Jesus.
posted by palomar at 1:07 PM on June 29, 2018 [83 favorites]
Another white male resident who lived nearby and said he preferred to remain anonymous said that he had called 311 on occasion due to firecrackers, which he called “scary and dangerous.”So... to avoid conflict, you repeatedly call the cops on your neighbor? That's some cowardly shit right there.
“It just means that people have different approaches to living,” he said. Calling 311 was “a way of avoiding conflict. People don’t want conflict with their neighbors.”
posted by palomar at 1:07 PM on June 29, 2018 [83 favorites]
Between 2015 and 2017, the 311 hotline and app received about 3,000 quality-of-life complaints for Hernandez’s block — a massive increase over the previous three years, when there were only approximately 130 complaints...BuzzFeed News also talked to eight new residents who’d lived on the block for one to two years. They were divided on whether the block was too loud, and none said they had filed a 311 complaint. While it gets loud on weekends, they said, the majority of these residents were surprised to hear that there were so many complaints.
311 data does not reveal any information about who filed the complaints. The long-term residents said the only clue to what was going on came from the police, who said the majority were filed by one person.
There is one single person who has made it their mission to get to the police to harass an elderly man into staying in his house to socialize with his friends. It has apparently not occurred to this person that they might live in the wrong neighborhood.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:08 PM on June 29, 2018 [95 favorites]
311 data does not reveal any information about who filed the complaints. The long-term residents said the only clue to what was going on came from the police, who said the majority were filed by one person.
There is one single person who has made it their mission to get to the police to harass an elderly man into staying in his house to socialize with his friends. It has apparently not occurred to this person that they might live in the wrong neighborhood.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:08 PM on June 29, 2018 [95 favorites]
My wife recently had to talk our building complexes Facebook group out of calling the cops being suggested as the default response to fireworks being set off annoyingly but not dangerously near the building.
The thread got so contentious the mods took it down but fortunately with it went the suggestion to call the cops.
posted by griphus at 1:15 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
The thread got so contentious the mods took it down but fortunately with it went the suggestion to call the cops.
posted by griphus at 1:15 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm a white person, grew up in the suburbs, lived in NYC for 15 years, and called the cops once, when I was woken up in the middle of the night because two cars had stopped in the middle of the street and someone had a baseball bat and there was some pretty serious screaming going on.
I really don't get this impulse to call the cops. I know it's "white people" but one thing I wished these typed of articles discussed was what types of white people are apt to do this. Because I'm not, and neither are a lot of people I know. Are these the white people that live in the city because that's where they can make a lot of money?
posted by Automocar at 1:23 PM on June 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
I really don't get this impulse to call the cops. I know it's "white people" but one thing I wished these typed of articles discussed was what types of white people are apt to do this. Because I'm not, and neither are a lot of people I know. Are these the white people that live in the city because that's where they can make a lot of money?
posted by Automocar at 1:23 PM on June 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
Also, let me say, one of the best things I have done for myself as a congenitally-grumpy white woman is to force myself to use the most innocuous possible description of someone's behavior to determine if my agita is a reasonable thing that I can Involve The Authorities in, or if the appropriate response is to ignore it.
"There's a group of elderly men playing dominoes with their friends outside. I have to say "excuse me" to pass on busy evenings."
"Several teenagers are laughing loudly and shoving at each other while waiting for the bus after school. They are happy that school is out."
"My neighbors have invited their extended family over for a barbecue. They are all drinking beer and it sounds like a married couple got into an embarrassing fight in front of everyone."
This exercise really helped me understand how many "quality of life" complaints really boil down to "I am aware of the existence of other people."
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:25 PM on June 29, 2018 [218 favorites]
"There's a group of elderly men playing dominoes with their friends outside. I have to say "excuse me" to pass on busy evenings."
"Several teenagers are laughing loudly and shoving at each other while waiting for the bus after school. They are happy that school is out."
"My neighbors have invited their extended family over for a barbecue. They are all drinking beer and it sounds like a married couple got into an embarrassing fight in front of everyone."
This exercise really helped me understand how many "quality of life" complaints really boil down to "I am aware of the existence of other people."
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:25 PM on June 29, 2018 [218 favorites]
The thread got so contentious the mods took it down but fortunately with it went the suggestion to call the cops.
Every once in a while I have the experience of feeling sudden incredible relief that something wasn't about MetaFilter.
posted by cortex at 1:26 PM on June 29, 2018 [108 favorites]
Every once in a while I have the experience of feeling sudden incredible relief that something wasn't about MetaFilter.
posted by cortex at 1:26 PM on June 29, 2018 [108 favorites]
I wished these typed of articles discussed was what types of white people are apt to do this
White people who suddenly live around a lot of black and brown people who are unaccustomed to living in non-white spaces and think it's their duty to bring civilization to their new home.
posted by asteria at 1:27 PM on June 29, 2018 [45 favorites]
White people who suddenly live around a lot of black and brown people who are unaccustomed to living in non-white spaces and think it's their duty to bring civilization to their new home.
posted by asteria at 1:27 PM on June 29, 2018 [45 favorites]
Are these the white people that live in the city because that's where they can make a lot of money?
in general these kinds of people are just really entitled? they don't really understand that they won't always get their way in life and that when they don't, it's not due to some kind of societal injustice targeting them specifically. when they're forced to acknowledge the existence of other people whose needs are equally or more important than theirs are, they get really confused, which makes them angry and frightened.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:29 PM on June 29, 2018 [22 favorites]
in general these kinds of people are just really entitled? they don't really understand that they won't always get their way in life and that when they don't, it's not due to some kind of societal injustice targeting them specifically. when they're forced to acknowledge the existence of other people whose needs are equally or more important than theirs are, they get really confused, which makes them angry and frightened.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:29 PM on June 29, 2018 [22 favorites]
Are these the white people that live in the city because that's where they can make a lot of money?
Yeah, in my experience, it's white people who grew up in the suburbs and have an expectation that everybody will be just like them and live the same lives like them and there are homeowner association rules and regulations, dammit, saying that you can't mow your lawn after sundown!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, asshole. Welcome to the city.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:30 PM on June 29, 2018 [36 favorites]
Yeah, in my experience, it's white people who grew up in the suburbs and have an expectation that everybody will be just like them and live the same lives like them and there are homeowner association rules and regulations, dammit, saying that you can't mow your lawn after sundown!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, asshole. Welcome to the city.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:30 PM on June 29, 2018 [36 favorites]
Who are these people? I am also a white person who grew up in a not exclusively white suburb of a Canadian city. Doesn't everyone learn at an early age that snitches get stitches? ;) Unless somebody is being murdered you don't call the police.
posted by SonInLawOfSam at 1:30 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by SonInLawOfSam at 1:30 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
fuck it, start calling for wellness checks on these people. "oh we haven't seen Johnny out of his apartment for three days, we're worried about him, could you see if he's ok? "
posted by boo_radley at 1:34 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by boo_radley at 1:34 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
in general these kinds of people are just really entitled? they don't really understand that they won't always get their way in life and that when they don't, it's not due to some kind of societal injustice targeting them specifically.
Ironically, I'm realizing that the only time I've called the non-emergency line to make a noise complaint, I've been calling to complain about the entitled hipsters who have parties in their back yard (which is directly under my bedroom window) until about 3 am.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:34 PM on June 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
Ironically, I'm realizing that the only time I've called the non-emergency line to make a noise complaint, I've been calling to complain about the entitled hipsters who have parties in their back yard (which is directly under my bedroom window) until about 3 am.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:34 PM on June 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
the only clue to what was going on came from the police, who said the majority were filed by one person.
If they know that most of those calls are coming from one person, why the hell are they not having some sort of consultation with that person instead of harassing the long-term residents?? That's pure lack of proactivity* on the part of the precinct management.
*giving them the benefit of the doubt re: motives
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:35 PM on June 29, 2018 [21 favorites]
If they know that most of those calls are coming from one person, why the hell are they not having some sort of consultation with that person instead of harassing the long-term residents?? That's pure lack of proactivity* on the part of the precinct management.
*giving them the benefit of the doubt re: motives
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:35 PM on June 29, 2018 [21 favorites]
New Harlem Resident Declares War On Jingle-Happy Mister Softee Man
posted by ActingTheGoat at 1:40 PM on June 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 1:40 PM on June 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I try to assume that I'm acting every bit as entitled as other people are, just in ways that are as invisible to me as their entitlement is to them. Not too good at being aware that way, but I'm trying.
posted by alpheus at 1:41 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by alpheus at 1:41 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Let me guess, they're not too dissimilar from the kind of folks who used to moved next door to clubs in the 90s/00s and then called the cops on them because of the noise.
posted by gtrwolf at 1:46 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by gtrwolf at 1:46 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
White people who suddenly live around a lot of black and brown people who are unaccustomed to living in non-white spaces and think it's their duty to bring civilization to their new home.
This is the province of self-centered and thin-skinned white people who are uncomfortable around non-white people and love (written and unwritten, legal and social) rules. They probably care a lot about their coworkers submitting their time-off requests correctly and their in-laws asking them to baby-sit in the exact right way. When they are around non-white people who are breaking the (white) rules, they assume that their added discomfort means that the rule-breaking is especially egregious, not that they are racist.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:48 PM on June 29, 2018 [34 favorites]
This is the province of self-centered and thin-skinned white people who are uncomfortable around non-white people and love (written and unwritten, legal and social) rules. They probably care a lot about their coworkers submitting their time-off requests correctly and their in-laws asking them to baby-sit in the exact right way. When they are around non-white people who are breaking the (white) rules, they assume that their added discomfort means that the rule-breaking is especially egregious, not that they are racist.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:48 PM on June 29, 2018 [34 favorites]
2015 and 2017, the 311 hotline and app received about 3,000 quality-of-life complaints for Hernandez’s block.
Wait... 365 days/year x 3 years = 1095 days
3000 calls/1095 days...
They got nearly THREE COMPLAINTS PER DAY? That's not just an entitled white dude, that's an entitled white dude with a rage problem.
posted by misskaz at 1:48 PM on June 29, 2018 [26 favorites]
Wait... 365 days/year x 3 years = 1095 days
3000 calls/1095 days...
They got nearly THREE COMPLAINTS PER DAY? That's not just an entitled white dude, that's an entitled white dude with a rage problem.
posted by misskaz at 1:48 PM on June 29, 2018 [26 favorites]
The brand of white person that does this is the colonizer. We used to call them gentrifiers but I like colonizers better. They're the folks who are priced out of the middle class white neighborhoods and moving into the "affordable", "emerging" neighborhoods that have historically been home to people of color. For example, the Columbia City neighborhood of Seattle -- used to be inhabited by black folks, Asian folks, recent immigrants, lower-income white folks... then the Microsofties and the Amazon folks started moving there.
Here's a fun little window into what that neighborhood is like now.
posted by palomar at 1:49 PM on June 29, 2018 [26 favorites]
Here's a fun little window into what that neighborhood is like now.
posted by palomar at 1:49 PM on June 29, 2018 [26 favorites]
fuck it, start calling for wellness checks on these people. "oh we haven't seen Johnny out of his apartment for three days, we're worried about him, could you see if he's ok? "
Escalation isn't neighborly.
posted by carsonb at 1:52 PM on June 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Escalation isn't neighborly.
posted by carsonb at 1:52 PM on June 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
311 data does not reveal any information about who filed the complaints. The long-term residents said the only clue to what was going on came from the police, who said the majority were filed by one person.
In my city, some people who buy properties in gentrifying neighborhoods cheap and then flip them or work on them and raise the rent through the roof are generally believed to call in lots of bullshit complaints about properties they want to get. It's usually code complaints about peeling paint or whatever so that they can get fines assessed against the owner, who won't be able to pay. But I'd expect that just getting the police to harass residents would probably work, too, if someone is aiming to get those apartments (or to get the current tenants to move out).
posted by dilettante at 1:53 PM on June 29, 2018 [22 favorites]
This exercise really helped me understand how many "quality of life" complaints really boil down to "I am aware of the existence of other people."
And to expand on the idea of being neighborly, I think the modernization of communications and specifically hand-held social media have contributed to the deterioration of what it means to be neighborly. It's too easy to have a social network that doesn't map to your personal geography anymore, but it's still so important to have those social connections with the people you live near for reasons like these.
Whether or not people want to be neighbors with those who live around them, the opportunities to become neighborly are fewer and further between.
posted by carsonb at 1:56 PM on June 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
And to expand on the idea of being neighborly, I think the modernization of communications and specifically hand-held social media have contributed to the deterioration of what it means to be neighborly. It's too easy to have a social network that doesn't map to your personal geography anymore, but it's still so important to have those social connections with the people you live near for reasons like these.
Whether or not people want to be neighbors with those who live around them, the opportunities to become neighborly are fewer and further between.
posted by carsonb at 1:56 PM on June 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
People need to learn to be comfortable with discomfort. And to be empathetic before passing judgement. What a world it would be.
I have invited a friend to stay with us till she gets back on her feet. She was previously a country girl, and unused to living so close to people. Scene: Summer Afternoon. The neighbors kids scream bloody murder and it freaks her out. She wonders aloud if we should "do something". I look at her for a moment, then ask her what she thinks is going on. "Aren't they fighting over there?" "Look outside." She does, and observes several happy children shooting each other with water guns. Because it's summer. "Oh."
posted by domo at 1:56 PM on June 29, 2018 [22 favorites]
I have invited a friend to stay with us till she gets back on her feet. She was previously a country girl, and unused to living so close to people. Scene: Summer Afternoon. The neighbors kids scream bloody murder and it freaks her out. She wonders aloud if we should "do something". I look at her for a moment, then ask her what she thinks is going on. "Aren't they fighting over there?" "Look outside." She does, and observes several happy children shooting each other with water guns. Because it's summer. "Oh."
posted by domo at 1:56 PM on June 29, 2018 [22 favorites]
Talk to your neighbors, people. Get to know them, and when you have a problem for christ's sake talk to them about it. I know it's awkward, I know strangers are scary and conflict is scary and practically every last one of us these days has semi-crippling social anxiety, but goddammit you have to talk to your neighbors.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:04 PM on June 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:04 PM on June 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
The one and only time I ever called the police when I lived in chicago was when a %100, balls out, naked (probably drunk) man was blocking the alleyway, arguing with his girlfriend that was in like, the 3rd story window. He wouldn't move for my car, and I wasn't about to get out and try and talk to him face to face. But even then - I stuck around when the cops showed up and watched what panned out. All they did was order the girl to throw down some sweatpants and for the guy to move aside. I can't imagine calling the cops for anything as banal as playing dominoes or just existing outside. And I especially can't imagine doing it in a way where you just go about your business and are content with the idea that cops are harassing someone somewhere and you have no idea how it's going to turn out.
(For the record, I am a white person who grew up in a city that has equal white and black citizens, with a mixed family, and lived well below the poverty line my whole life.)
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:05 PM on June 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
(For the record, I am a white person who grew up in a city that has equal white and black citizens, with a mixed family, and lived well below the poverty line my whole life.)
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:05 PM on June 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
For some reason I don't think those white people voted Trump. Maybe I am wrong.
posted by lstanley at 2:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by lstanley at 2:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
in general these kinds of people are just really entitled
To wit: last night, grumpybearbride and I were at a local production of Hedwig and were sitting in the back, taking up the outer two of a set of four chairs that flanked the left wall. A white couple came in and started looking around for seats. All of the seats were taken except the two next to us. They stood around, looking put out, completely ignoring the seats next to us, until one of the employees of the theater took some chairs and put them in the middle for them. I did not speak to those people, but I am 100% confident they are entitled shitheels, and precisely the kind of miscreants that would 311 their Dominican domino-playing neighbor because they deserve peace and quiet.
(The show was amazing! It is at the Ruba Club here in Philadelphia and runs through tomorrow night.)
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:07 PM on June 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
To wit: last night, grumpybearbride and I were at a local production of Hedwig and were sitting in the back, taking up the outer two of a set of four chairs that flanked the left wall. A white couple came in and started looking around for seats. All of the seats were taken except the two next to us. They stood around, looking put out, completely ignoring the seats next to us, until one of the employees of the theater took some chairs and put them in the middle for them. I did not speak to those people, but I am 100% confident they are entitled shitheels, and precisely the kind of miscreants that would 311 their Dominican domino-playing neighbor because they deserve peace and quiet.
(The show was amazing! It is at the Ruba Club here in Philadelphia and runs through tomorrow night.)
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:07 PM on June 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
The complaint from pre-gentrification folks in San Francisco, especially those who love night life and clubbing, is that $$ new people $$ would by one of the new condos near a long-established nightclub and then are shocked, shocked, that there is loud music after 10pm and sometimes unruly and incontinent patrons wandering the neighborhood. Shocked enough to make noise complaints, bitch at council meetings, etc. BTW, the condo they bought was formerly a commercial or industrial site were everyone was gone after 6pm.
posted by King Sky Prawn at 2:13 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by King Sky Prawn at 2:13 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
I called the cops a few times on a neighbor who was in the habit of having insanely loud barbeques with 100+ people until 3 AM. Did they live in the neighborhood before me? Yes. Were they black? Yes. Does any of that matter? No. They were inconsiderate assholes - it's been awhile since law school but I'm pretty sure that's not a protected class.
posted by aliasless at 2:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by aliasless at 2:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
Fucking transplants. That is not to say that white native New Yorkers aren’t ever racist (hoo boy), but they know how to live in a fucking city. The combination of racist white entitlement and suburban snowflake-ism is just...ugh.
These are also the people who never even acknowledge anyone in their neighborhood because they think that’s what New York is like. Motherfucker, no. Say good morning to the old dudes playing bones and smile. Do that with everyone. Talk to people at the bodega. Be a goddamn person, and see how much nicer it is to live in your neighborhood.
And when your neighbor decides to test his fireworks right outside your window at 2 am for the third night in a row, you lean outside the window after an appropriate amount of time and yell “what the fuck, man?” like a normal person. As I did last night.
I swear to Christ I would be down with a public shaming campaign. Or handouts on how to fucking act. Just give them to every white person. Those of us who don’t need them won’t mind.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:21 PM on June 29, 2018 [66 favorites]
These are also the people who never even acknowledge anyone in their neighborhood because they think that’s what New York is like. Motherfucker, no. Say good morning to the old dudes playing bones and smile. Do that with everyone. Talk to people at the bodega. Be a goddamn person, and see how much nicer it is to live in your neighborhood.
And when your neighbor decides to test his fireworks right outside your window at 2 am for the third night in a row, you lean outside the window after an appropriate amount of time and yell “what the fuck, man?” like a normal person. As I did last night.
I swear to Christ I would be down with a public shaming campaign. Or handouts on how to fucking act. Just give them to every white person. Those of us who don’t need them won’t mind.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:21 PM on June 29, 2018 [66 favorites]
That was a rant that’s been brewing. Now I am off to RTFA and I hope I don’t discover any native New Yorkers in there, bc goddamn.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:23 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 2:23 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
White people are wild.
posted by supercrayon at 2:23 PM on June 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by supercrayon at 2:23 PM on June 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
“One officer told me that someone kept calling so they had to show up,” said Ledesma. “The cops are bothering us because [someone has] an issue with dominoes? Are you kidding me?”
Also, THIS. Seriously? Cops bully the shit out of people complaining about sexual assault trying to get them to drop it, but they have time for this shit?
I mean. Goddamn.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:29 PM on June 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
Also, THIS. Seriously? Cops bully the shit out of people complaining about sexual assault trying to get them to drop it, but they have time for this shit?
I mean. Goddamn.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:29 PM on June 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
This link is in the article but buried well enough I wanted to call it out: GitHub repo of data and code that was used to produce their visualizations showing correlations between gentrification and 311 complaints.
New York's 311 logs are public records. It may be possible to get some more insight into what it means that 1 local was the source of most complaints. Presumably they're anonymized, but it'd be interesting to look at the exact pattern and see if other places in the city have a similar pattern of one single bad actor.
posted by Nelson at 2:29 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
New York's 311 logs are public records. It may be possible to get some more insight into what it means that 1 local was the source of most complaints. Presumably they're anonymized, but it'd be interesting to look at the exact pattern and see if other places in the city have a similar pattern of one single bad actor.
posted by Nelson at 2:29 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
> Unless somebody is being murdered you don't call the police.
When I lived in Queens my neighbor called the cops because there was a pigeon on my roof.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:31 PM on June 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
When I lived in Queens my neighbor called the cops because there was a pigeon on my roof.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:31 PM on June 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
I am sound sensitive due to a shitty ear and I won't hesitate to knock on my neighbors' doors when things get crazy but fuck, how about not moving to neighborhoods with real people if you don't want to interact with them in any real way. You want a silent and boring place to live, throw yourself into a coffin.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 2:31 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 2:31 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Also I wished we lived in a world where calling the police on someone having a bbq, or selling water, or playing dominos resulted in the police rocking up to check it out then turning on the person who rang with a stern “why are you wasting police time?” and then told to get a fucking grip. I want to live in that world, not the one where we all tacitly admit that calling the police on POC is dangerous because so many of our cops are psychotic racist murder machines.
posted by supercrayon at 2:33 PM on June 29, 2018 [51 favorites]
posted by supercrayon at 2:33 PM on June 29, 2018 [51 favorites]
I'm relatively poor so I bought the cheapest habitable house I could find in Durham NC, which ended up being in the "bad" (meaning scruffy-looking and non-white) part of northeast downtown. I've been here over a year and guess what: zero bad stuff has happened. The greatest crime anyone's committed has been having outdoor barbecues or riding noisy mopeds around. It makes me angry because if it were a white neighborhood it would be expensive and trendy, yet there's nothing wrong with it as-is!
I mean, the family across from us has 3 little kids that like to come pet our dogs. Two of the homes own taco trucks and several others run their own businesses. Our neighbor is a friendly older black gentleman who likes to talk with his friends on his porch. There's a school bus stop 200 feet from my door where parents wait with their kids every morning.
Everyone has been unfailingly friendly to us and it's difficult to watch the house flippers and 400k+ infill construction rolling up the street toward us month by month, because I know that these folks are going to end up displaced or squeezed financially. White people with money are going to move in and start calling the police when the existing residents have a backyard party with music, or fail to cut their grass, or leave their cars facing the wrong way. I don't know what to do about it, aside from being a good neighbor to the people who are already here.
posted by azuresunday at 2:38 PM on June 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
I mean, the family across from us has 3 little kids that like to come pet our dogs. Two of the homes own taco trucks and several others run their own businesses. Our neighbor is a friendly older black gentleman who likes to talk with his friends on his porch. There's a school bus stop 200 feet from my door where parents wait with their kids every morning.
Everyone has been unfailingly friendly to us and it's difficult to watch the house flippers and 400k+ infill construction rolling up the street toward us month by month, because I know that these folks are going to end up displaced or squeezed financially. White people with money are going to move in and start calling the police when the existing residents have a backyard party with music, or fail to cut their grass, or leave their cars facing the wrong way. I don't know what to do about it, aside from being a good neighbor to the people who are already here.
posted by azuresunday at 2:38 PM on June 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
We have quite a few night clubs in my suburb. People wanted to live in the trendy part of town and then started complaining about the noise. And it turned out that the clubs were breaking noise restriction laws.
Here's what we did. We lifted the noise restriction laws, creating a special entertainment precinct just for our suburb.
The music-noise and development laws protect music venues from having to turn down their volumes when residential development is built nearby. Instead, the onus is on new developments to incorporate extensive noise insulation.
This is just fair. The clubs were here first and it's a pretty great scene. If you don't like it then why did you move here? Quit complaining, we're not turning it down.
posted by adept256 at 2:39 PM on June 29, 2018 [52 favorites]
Here's what we did. We lifted the noise restriction laws, creating a special entertainment precinct just for our suburb.
The music-noise and development laws protect music venues from having to turn down their volumes when residential development is built nearby. Instead, the onus is on new developments to incorporate extensive noise insulation.
This is just fair. The clubs were here first and it's a pretty great scene. If you don't like it then why did you move here? Quit complaining, we're not turning it down.
posted by adept256 at 2:39 PM on June 29, 2018 [52 favorites]
“One officer told me that someone kept calling so they had to show up,” said Ledesma. “The cops are bothering us because [someone has] an issue with dominoes? Are you kidding me?”
I think I said this on another thread, but it would be great if cops could develop a policy where if they show up and it's obvious it's just a ridiculous complaint, they don't even talk to the people being complained about, which is inherently traumatic. Just get out of the car and go in a bodega and buy a soda, or whatever.
posted by smelendez at 2:45 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
I think I said this on another thread, but it would be great if cops could develop a policy where if they show up and it's obvious it's just a ridiculous complaint, they don't even talk to the people being complained about, which is inherently traumatic. Just get out of the car and go in a bodega and buy a soda, or whatever.
posted by smelendez at 2:45 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
A number of historic music clubs got shut down in New Orleans a few years back, or at least stopped being able to host live music, because of out-of-towners moving in next door and then calling in noise complaints. It sucks ass—some of those places had been hosting free live music every night of the week for decades, and were absolutely beloved in their neighborhoods. Fucking assholes.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:45 PM on June 29, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:45 PM on June 29, 2018 [30 favorites]
how about not moving to neighborhoods with real people if you don't want to interact with them in any real way.
If you don’t like it, then why did you move here?
It’s not just with people. I donate to a fantastic local, wild animal rescue center here in AZ called the Southwest Wildlife Conservation Center. It’s actually located in a semi-remote area just outside the city limits of north Scottsdale. Yes, the same town that’s known as a high-end real estate, golfing and tourism area. (Locals call it Snobsdale.)
Anyway, so the SWCC is on the northern edge of town, occupying several acres of low desert scrubland, where it’s been rehabilitating bears, wolves, raccoons, coyotes, bobcats, and a host of other wildlife until they can be released again into the wild, for those that are healthy enough to do so. The coyotes and wolves, especially, can be pretty vocal, particularly in the early evening when they get their howl on.
Into this picture, some dude bought a house across the unpaved road from the rescue center. The center had been there for 20 years when he moved in. After a while, he then sued the center for being a criminal nuisance, because the coyotes and wolves were making too much noise, and the unpaved road kicks up too much dust from visitors to the center. In his lawsuit, he demanded that all noise-making animals be removed and that the center pay to pave the road.
The rescue center spent more than a year on the brink of closing its doors because of this asshat’s suit. Eventually, the lawsuit was thrown out and the city reaffirmed that the center could remain, the animals could remain, and the visitors could keep coming. Now the center is struggling to recover from being semi-shut down, all because one jerkass moved to a neighborhood and decided he didn’t like his neighbors.
posted by darkstar at 2:47 PM on June 29, 2018 [53 favorites]
If you don’t like it, then why did you move here?
It’s not just with people. I donate to a fantastic local, wild animal rescue center here in AZ called the Southwest Wildlife Conservation Center. It’s actually located in a semi-remote area just outside the city limits of north Scottsdale. Yes, the same town that’s known as a high-end real estate, golfing and tourism area. (Locals call it Snobsdale.)
Anyway, so the SWCC is on the northern edge of town, occupying several acres of low desert scrubland, where it’s been rehabilitating bears, wolves, raccoons, coyotes, bobcats, and a host of other wildlife until they can be released again into the wild, for those that are healthy enough to do so. The coyotes and wolves, especially, can be pretty vocal, particularly in the early evening when they get their howl on.
Into this picture, some dude bought a house across the unpaved road from the rescue center. The center had been there for 20 years when he moved in. After a while, he then sued the center for being a criminal nuisance, because the coyotes and wolves were making too much noise, and the unpaved road kicks up too much dust from visitors to the center. In his lawsuit, he demanded that all noise-making animals be removed and that the center pay to pave the road.
The rescue center spent more than a year on the brink of closing its doors because of this asshat’s suit. Eventually, the lawsuit was thrown out and the city reaffirmed that the center could remain, the animals could remain, and the visitors could keep coming. Now the center is struggling to recover from being semi-shut down, all because one jerkass moved to a neighborhood and decided he didn’t like his neighbors.
posted by darkstar at 2:47 PM on June 29, 2018 [53 favorites]
Yeah, there also needs to be some kind of protection for longstanding music venues if they've technically been breaking the noise ordinance for years and suddenly are getting complaints for the same sound levels. Kind of like squatter's rights, or adverse possession of your neighbors' ears.
posted by smelendez at 2:49 PM on June 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by smelendez at 2:49 PM on June 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
And re: people having noisy barbeques and such, I personally would be weighing my comfort against the obvious enjoyment of the entire neighborhood before I thought about even bringing it up to them, let alone calling the police. Maybe I can tolerate an occasional rough night so that a few hundred people can have a rockin' good time? I mean shit, if it was my neighbor and they were having a party out on the street I'd be a lot more likely to adopt an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach and see if me and a six pack of beer might not be able to get ourselves an invitation to come hang out and score a free dinner and some interesting conversation with folks I might not ordinarily get to meet. Sometimes you just have to roll with it, you can't expect to have control over your surroundings at all times.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:53 PM on June 29, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:53 PM on June 29, 2018 [24 favorites]
Who are these people?
They grew up in privileged, affluent suburbs and went to colleges where their parent's wealth shielded them from the ubiquitous, grim realities of persistent poverty. They excelled in a curated, shallow talent pool; were never challenged in their belief that the systematic advantages they enjoyed were available to anybody who worked hard enough. They bought into a just-world belief system where their in-born economic and social advantages were not the arbitrary result of a racist legacy. They call themselves colorblind but "ghetto" is their ubiquitous go-to word for dirty, poor, dark-skinned, and undesirable. A careless yet ironical n-word joke is always two drinks away when they are having fun within their tribe. They were never taught how to relate to or empathize with anybody who looks different or was motivated by anything besides economic profit and status seeking. But they are our future leaders, self-anointed and confirmed by our mass media. They are mostly white and handsome and instagram-friendly: they have absolved themselves of any social responsibility, while embracing stainless steel appliances, free parking, and no midnight craps games.
I could go on, but these people are assholes.
posted by peeedro at 2:57 PM on June 29, 2018 [91 favorites]
They grew up in privileged, affluent suburbs and went to colleges where their parent's wealth shielded them from the ubiquitous, grim realities of persistent poverty. They excelled in a curated, shallow talent pool; were never challenged in their belief that the systematic advantages they enjoyed were available to anybody who worked hard enough. They bought into a just-world belief system where their in-born economic and social advantages were not the arbitrary result of a racist legacy. They call themselves colorblind but "ghetto" is their ubiquitous go-to word for dirty, poor, dark-skinned, and undesirable. A careless yet ironical n-word joke is always two drinks away when they are having fun within their tribe. They were never taught how to relate to or empathize with anybody who looks different or was motivated by anything besides economic profit and status seeking. But they are our future leaders, self-anointed and confirmed by our mass media. They are mostly white and handsome and instagram-friendly: they have absolved themselves of any social responsibility, while embracing stainless steel appliances, free parking, and no midnight craps games.
I could go on, but these people are assholes.
posted by peeedro at 2:57 PM on June 29, 2018 [91 favorites]
Also sorry gonna push back a little on the idea it’s ex-suburbanites doing the calling the cops thing. Bbq Becky and Permit Patty were from Oakland and San Francisco, do we know they were transplants? I grew up the in Bay Area surrounded by entitled white (liberal!) people and many of them would have done the same, it’s nothing to do with being suburban per se. Happy to be corrected if I’m wrong. I just think it’s easy to go oh it’s those kinds of shitty white people, different shitty white people, when the shitty white people are calling from inside the house.
posted by supercrayon at 3:04 PM on June 29, 2018 [38 favorites]
posted by supercrayon at 3:04 PM on June 29, 2018 [38 favorites]
People should be allowed to have ragin’ parties and stoop-dominoes and water gun fights and being free and wild and goddamn this Calvinist Protestant stick-up-the-butt-ism that has pretty much ruined anyone having a good time outside some austere bullshit “praise be” culture that is the predominant export of white people.
For that matter I wanna go back to Berlin where sections the city are basically anarcho-punk socialism where the streets are named after Karl Marx and Rosa Luxemburg is a hero.
*sobs* dammit (white) America what is your fucking damage.
posted by nikaspark at 3:04 PM on June 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
For that matter I wanna go back to Berlin where sections the city are basically anarcho-punk socialism where the streets are named after Karl Marx and Rosa Luxemburg is a hero.
*sobs* dammit (white) America what is your fucking damage.
posted by nikaspark at 3:04 PM on June 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
When I and most of my friends live in Chicago's Ukrainian Village/Bucktown area, we couldn't get the cops to file a report when actual crimes were being committed. A friend watched a dude break in through his window and grab his bike. The cops suggested that maybe that was a friend of his, who was borrowing it. Developers owned a good chunk of the property at that point, and they were rapidly tearing down old houses and putting up cheap cinder-block condos. I suspected that the developers were pressuring the
aldermen to suppress crime statistics.
posted by hydrophonic at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
aldermen to suppress crime statistics.
posted by hydrophonic at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
You know what helps keep a neighbourhood safe? People who sit on their stoops and talk to each other, or who play dominoes together regularly
Ironically I bet some of them even watched the Jane Jacobs documentary before going ahead and calling the police on old men playing dominoes.
These people make us less safe. Because they have no interest in getting to know their neighbors, or being a part of a community, and they don’t seem to care that sometimes cops just kill POC for no goddamn reason.
I wish we could vote them out.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
Ironically I bet some of them even watched the Jane Jacobs documentary before going ahead and calling the police on old men playing dominoes.
These people make us less safe. Because they have no interest in getting to know their neighbors, or being a part of a community, and they don’t seem to care that sometimes cops just kill POC for no goddamn reason.
I wish we could vote them out.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'd be surprised if they were long-time residents. After a while you learn to just tune out stuff.
posted by asteria at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by asteria at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Bbq Becky and Permit Patty were from Oakland and San Francisco
Very much this - the SF Bay Area is like borderline white nationalist in liberal clothing.
posted by grumpybear69 at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Very much this - the SF Bay Area is like borderline white nationalist in liberal clothing.
posted by grumpybear69 at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
I wanna go back to Berlin where sections the city are basically anarcho-punk socialism where the streets are named after Karl Marx and Rosa Luxemburg is a hero.
The only reason that Rosa-Luxemburg-Platz hasn't been renamed to Nancy-Reagan-Platz or something is because the post-WW2 German constitution deliberately restricts the power of the federal government, just in case it goes bad. The CDU did want a Reaganplatz in Berlin, though the reliably left-wing local authorities would, on each occasion, veto it into the ground.
posted by acb at 3:09 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
The only reason that Rosa-Luxemburg-Platz hasn't been renamed to Nancy-Reagan-Platz or something is because the post-WW2 German constitution deliberately restricts the power of the federal government, just in case it goes bad. The CDU did want a Reaganplatz in Berlin, though the reliably left-wing local authorities would, on each occasion, veto it into the ground.
posted by acb at 3:09 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
do we know they were transplants?
I don’t know anything about the specific people listed, but as I alluded to in my comment that you’re referencing, this has absolutely been my experience. As I said before, it’s not that native white New Yorkers aren’t ever racist (“hoo boy”) but they know how to live in New York.
Caveats for the parts of New York that are weird ass suburbs, I guess. I can’t vouch for Glendale or anything.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:09 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don’t know anything about the specific people listed, but as I alluded to in my comment that you’re referencing, this has absolutely been my experience. As I said before, it’s not that native white New Yorkers aren’t ever racist (“hoo boy”) but they know how to live in New York.
Caveats for the parts of New York that are weird ass suburbs, I guess. I can’t vouch for Glendale or anything.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:09 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
My understanding though (mostly gleaned from MetaFilter threads) is that most of the people currently living in the Bay Area weren't there ten years ago. Hasn't it all been rich tech types moving in and pricing out the earlier residents?
When I lived in New Orleans, the most egregious cases—the ones that made local news—were uniformly caused by transplants. Gentrification was and continues to be a major issue down there.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:11 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
When I lived in New Orleans, the most egregious cases—the ones that made local news—were uniformly caused by transplants. Gentrification was and continues to be a major issue down there.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:11 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Anyway so I’ve lived in my Brooklyn house for like a decade and I love it and I don’t want to leave, and usually when the neighbors are loud, I just flip on my white noise machine and try to sleep through it. I try hard to be a friendly neighbor and not a shitty white person, though I’m sure I’m shitty in many ways I can’t even wrap my head around. One night my house started shaking, shaking to some really deep horrible EDM beats at like 2 am on a weeknight, and when it hadn’t let up after 30 min, I jumped outside to see which house was making this noise. Turns out some rich, young European DJs had moved next door and created a speakeasy-looking club; it was debuting that night and cost $40 to get in. Underage kids were outside my window all night and until 8 am, screaming about their freshman year philosophy classes at Brown while high on things I probably can’t name. After a few days of this, I was like, “Okay, surely I can call 311 on these guys and not be a shitty gentrifier?”
So I called 311 and amazingly, the woman who answered was a friend of mine! I know her from jury duty where we stuck together, we’ve hung out, I like pics of her kid on Instagram, etc. I felt comfortable being like, “Look, these kids opened a club next door, it’s the worst, please get someone to check it out.” I just assumed she would sympathize with me.< And she was like, “Sure, sure, logging that now.”
The next day, I’m checking Facebook, and this friend, who’s Black, had posted, “Get this, white gentrifiers are so out of control they’re calling 311 on themselves now.”
Anyway, white people, I’ve now learned if something’s too loud for you, time to move. You’re not so powerful you get to change things if no one else gets that privilege too.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 3:11 PM on June 29, 2018 [16 favorites]
So I called 311 and amazingly, the woman who answered was a friend of mine! I know her from jury duty where we stuck together, we’ve hung out, I like pics of her kid on Instagram, etc. I felt comfortable being like, “Look, these kids opened a club next door, it’s the worst, please get someone to check it out.” I just assumed she would sympathize with me.< And she was like, “Sure, sure, logging that now.”
The next day, I’m checking Facebook, and this friend, who’s Black, had posted, “Get this, white gentrifiers are so out of control they’re calling 311 on themselves now.”
Anyway, white people, I’ve now learned if something’s too loud for you, time to move. You’re not so powerful you get to change things if no one else gets that privilege too.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 3:11 PM on June 29, 2018 [16 favorites]
Do we know they were transplants?
BBQ Becky isn't from California. Permit Patty doesn't seem to be either. Jogger Joe appears to be.
But that's a distraction from the fact that racism is rife and ever-present here in California and in the Bay Area specifically. People here think very well of themselves for being open-minded and liberal, but when it comes down to it they're willing if not downright eager to call the cops on their neighbors, write anti-Chinese graffiti on a Buddhist church, put anti-Semitic stickers on blank walls, and more. (Note, I've personally seen all of these just in Oakland, where Trump got only 4.63% of the vote.)
Lots of towns in California are thought to have been sundown towns. In the Bay Area alone, there's Antioch, Berkeley, Burbank, Burlingame, East Palo Alto, Folsom, Lafayette, Mill Valley, North Palo Alto, Orinda, Piedmont, San Jose, San Leandro, San Pablo, and Santa Cruz.
Direct quote from a Black former co-worker: "I've lived in the Bay Area and I've lived in Detroit. I prefer Detroit, because at least there people will let you know that they're racist instead of pretending not to be."
posted by Lexica at 3:32 PM on June 29, 2018 [31 favorites]
BBQ Becky isn't from California. Permit Patty doesn't seem to be either. Jogger Joe appears to be.
But that's a distraction from the fact that racism is rife and ever-present here in California and in the Bay Area specifically. People here think very well of themselves for being open-minded and liberal, but when it comes down to it they're willing if not downright eager to call the cops on their neighbors, write anti-Chinese graffiti on a Buddhist church, put anti-Semitic stickers on blank walls, and more. (Note, I've personally seen all of these just in Oakland, where Trump got only 4.63% of the vote.)
Lots of towns in California are thought to have been sundown towns. In the Bay Area alone, there's Antioch, Berkeley, Burbank, Burlingame, East Palo Alto, Folsom, Lafayette, Mill Valley, North Palo Alto, Orinda, Piedmont, San Jose, San Leandro, San Pablo, and Santa Cruz.
Direct quote from a Black former co-worker: "I've lived in the Bay Area and I've lived in Detroit. I prefer Detroit, because at least there people will let you know that they're racist instead of pretending not to be."
posted by Lexica at 3:32 PM on June 29, 2018 [31 favorites]
I call the police with noise complaints at least once a month. If the party goes past midnight I'm calling them. When the party starts at 1am, I'm definitely calling them.
I'm not going to walk two blocks in my pajamas and slippers to ask a bunch of people to ask their their DJ shut down his wall of speakers. Fuck that. They can make all the noise they want between 8am and midnight but we live here, too.
Also, we didn't move into their neighborhood- they moved into ours.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:45 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
I'm not going to walk two blocks in my pajamas and slippers to ask a bunch of people to ask their their DJ shut down his wall of speakers. Fuck that. They can make all the noise they want between 8am and midnight but we live here, too.
Also, we didn't move into their neighborhood- they moved into ours.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:45 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
I have severe executive functioning problems and noise is a significant source of stress in my life, but moving is out of the question. I think it's OK for people to be unhappy with the noise in their neighborhoods. What's mind-boggling is getting the police involved, especially over little infractions. In other words, I don't think the issue is that people are uncomfortable with noise, it's that they're using the police like personal problem-solvers. The police shouldn't allow someone to make thousands of complaints about people playing dominoes. That's a massive waste of police time, to say nothing of the danger the police themselves pose. Calling the police is like pulling a gun during an argument. It's just going to escalate everything and make everything worse.
I wonder how much of it has to do with the implicit expectation that people aren't going to be staying in their neighborhoods for very long. Obviously that doesn't track to every neighborhood, but I wonder if the precarious nature of the modern economy has made everything more temporary. It's like how more jobs are like stepping stones now, instead of places where you get a lifelong career; more neighborhoods are stepping stones to your first house (which is to say, not everyone uses careers like that, and not everyone expects to buy a house). I mean, I've lived in the same building in Oakland for three years, and there's only three or four apartments that haven't changed tenants in that time. How do you build community if everyone is constantly coming and going? People are depersonalized, and it's more "those damn neighbors are being loud" and not "man, Mike needs to keep it down."
I agree with everyone that the Bay Area is racist as hell. Places like Richmond and Palo Alto have long histories of blatant housing discrimination.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 3:49 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I wonder how much of it has to do with the implicit expectation that people aren't going to be staying in their neighborhoods for very long. Obviously that doesn't track to every neighborhood, but I wonder if the precarious nature of the modern economy has made everything more temporary. It's like how more jobs are like stepping stones now, instead of places where you get a lifelong career; more neighborhoods are stepping stones to your first house (which is to say, not everyone uses careers like that, and not everyone expects to buy a house). I mean, I've lived in the same building in Oakland for three years, and there's only three or four apartments that haven't changed tenants in that time. How do you build community if everyone is constantly coming and going? People are depersonalized, and it's more "those damn neighbors are being loud" and not "man, Mike needs to keep it down."
I agree with everyone that the Bay Area is racist as hell. Places like Richmond and Palo Alto have long histories of blatant housing discrimination.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 3:49 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Since I'm a Very White in a Mostly Not White neighborhood, I like to use the time-honored approach of talking to my neighbors who have lived there a while and are not white about any issues with other not-white neighbors. Once in a while I get the "Okay what's with you?" side-eye, and I chalk it up to a case of me needing to think about the existing culture of where I live, and other times the neighbors are right there with me
If it really is a problem, my neighbors are usually on it already or give a sort of ... quiet approval of complaining to the rent office and we silently acknowledge that if it really is an issue and the neighbors can't handle it, then the white lady going to the rent office is going to probably be the more effective approach.
See: The ongoing saga of Us Vs Upstairs Polka Parties.
* Upstairs likes polka. A lot. It's very loud. I can hear it over my TV. At 11pm. At 6am. At 2pm. I talked to them. The neighbors talked to them. The other neighbors talk to them. N1 and N2 went to the rent office. Rent office didn't do much. I went to the rent office. Magically, the issues with Upstairs Polka started being way less frequent.**
** Nobody's calling the cops though. Not even 311. My city's po-po is racist. I'll live with annoying music way before I will risk getting someone shot by a racist cop. You work inside the community, or with authorities that can't shoot someone, or you learn to live with it because no one should get shot even if they're an asshole who loves polka way too much.
posted by FritoKAL at 3:55 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
If it really is a problem, my neighbors are usually on it already or give a sort of ... quiet approval of complaining to the rent office and we silently acknowledge that if it really is an issue and the neighbors can't handle it, then the white lady going to the rent office is going to probably be the more effective approach.
See: The ongoing saga of Us Vs Upstairs Polka Parties.
* Upstairs likes polka. A lot. It's very loud. I can hear it over my TV. At 11pm. At 6am. At 2pm. I talked to them. The neighbors talked to them. The other neighbors talk to them. N1 and N2 went to the rent office. Rent office didn't do much. I went to the rent office. Magically, the issues with Upstairs Polka started being way less frequent.**
** Nobody's calling the cops though. Not even 311. My city's po-po is racist. I'll live with annoying music way before I will risk getting someone shot by a racist cop. You work inside the community, or with authorities that can't shoot someone, or you learn to live with it because no one should get shot even if they're an asshole who loves polka way too much.
posted by FritoKAL at 3:55 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Lots of towns in California are thought to have been sundown towns. In the Bay Area alone, there's Antioch, Berkeley, Burbank, Burlingame, East Palo Alto, Folsom, Lafayette, Mill Valley, North Palo Alto, Orinda, Piedmont, San Jose, San Leandro, San Pablo, and Santa Cruz.
Does that list of names originally come from a source that documented the history of those places as sundown towns? The information available clicking through on the linked page ranges from "a fair amount" to "basically none" and little of it has a source specified. It's a good idea to try to flesh out though - I wonder if he's still accepting contributions?
posted by atoxyl at 3:58 PM on June 29, 2018
Does that list of names originally come from a source that documented the history of those places as sundown towns? The information available clicking through on the linked page ranges from "a fair amount" to "basically none" and little of it has a source specified. It's a good idea to try to flesh out though - I wonder if he's still accepting contributions?
posted by atoxyl at 3:58 PM on June 29, 2018
for real though imagine calling the cops on a 105 year old man. unless that 105 year old man is edward cullen trying to chew open your stomach it's fucking inexplicable.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:01 PM on June 29, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 4:01 PM on June 29, 2018 [32 favorites]
Does that list of names originally come from a source that documented the history of those places as sundown towns?
The website and associated book have lots of information.
posted by Lexica at 4:04 PM on June 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
The website and associated book have lots of information.
posted by Lexica at 4:04 PM on June 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
People need to learn to be comfortable with discomfort.
But the customer is always right and there's no other model for society then server and customer.
posted by The Whelk at 4:05 PM on June 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
But the customer is always right and there's no other model for society then server and customer.
posted by The Whelk at 4:05 PM on June 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
The music-noise and development laws protect music venues from having to turn down their volumes when residential development is built nearby. Instead, the onus is on new developments to incorporate extensive noise insulation.
Where I live, when you buy a house, you have to sign a document acknowledging that it's a farming area, and that the right-to-farm laws mean you can't sue anyone for farming. I want to see a right-to-dominoes law.
posted by zamboni at 4:07 PM on June 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
Where I live, when you buy a house, you have to sign a document acknowledging that it's a farming area, and that the right-to-farm laws mean you can't sue anyone for farming. I want to see a right-to-dominoes law.
posted by zamboni at 4:07 PM on June 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
I live in this part of Harlem. I moved here in 2002. That block of 136th is just a few blocks from here. Broadway from 135th on up is a giant party during the summer. I don't know how anybody thinks they're going to shut that down.
This is also the time of year when the fireworks are quite loud, I mean loud like I don't know the names of what they are called, but loud I wouldn't want to be on the street when they go off. Do I call the cops on my neighbors? No, but I can totally see how somebody would complain about fireworks. These are not just little firecrackers.
Don't get me started on the jerks that drive loud dirtbikes up and down Broadway all summer long. Again, do I call the police? No. Do I fantasize about having an RPG launcher in my bedroom aiming at these mofos? You bet.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:07 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
This is also the time of year when the fireworks are quite loud, I mean loud like I don't know the names of what they are called, but loud I wouldn't want to be on the street when they go off. Do I call the cops on my neighbors? No, but I can totally see how somebody would complain about fireworks. These are not just little firecrackers.
Don't get me started on the jerks that drive loud dirtbikes up and down Broadway all summer long. Again, do I call the police? No. Do I fantasize about having an RPG launcher in my bedroom aiming at these mofos? You bet.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:07 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
This is the province of self-centered and thin-skinned white people who are uncomfortable around non-white people
Not exactly. It’s just...white people of a certain cultural background are eerily, creepily quiet, and take any talking to them or loud laughing or music playing that they can hear as an affront. It’s not about the color of the people making noise, it’s about their expectation that everybody else lives in the creepy-quiet world and if you don’t you are a Problem. It’s like Camazotz gone wild, basically, where they want to enforce their terrible social rules on everyone.
posted by corb at 4:14 PM on June 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
Not exactly. It’s just...white people of a certain cultural background are eerily, creepily quiet, and take any talking to them or loud laughing or music playing that they can hear as an affront. It’s not about the color of the people making noise, it’s about their expectation that everybody else lives in the creepy-quiet world and if you don’t you are a Problem. It’s like Camazotz gone wild, basically, where they want to enforce their terrible social rules on everyone.
posted by corb at 4:14 PM on June 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
Ugh. I am a white person living in a majority Hispanic neighborhood for the past year. I am 1000% cool with parties and loud music and karaoke and bandera and bands, and kids running amok because it’s warm (I love this actually!), and fun ride-on motorized bikes and toys, and all that. But some of my neighbors also launch super loud, super large, super illegal fireworks during the last two weeks of June and first two weeks of July, on basically a daily basis. I hear at least 15 loud, large fireworks a night within 5 blocks of my home sporadically launched between 9pm and 3am every day, at random intervals. I know it’s not much, but it wakes me up regularly and terrifies my dog, and it is illegal and dangerous in a fairly dense little suburb full of old trees. I don’t think it would have stopped us from moving here if we had known, but it is admittedly something we’ve considered calling the cops about. Because, crap, that’s a loud and menacing thing! The other night I thought a transformer had blown because my bedroom lit up, but it turned out a firework was just launched 20 feet from my bedroom window (I could smell it!).
If it’s illegal and kinda dangerous and a nuisance, is it ok to call the cops, even if the cops are also risky? I guess not. But... gosh, it’s hard to feel like there isn’t a better option than just lots of illegal fireworks every night for a month.
posted by samthemander at 4:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
If it’s illegal and kinda dangerous and a nuisance, is it ok to call the cops, even if the cops are also risky? I guess not. But... gosh, it’s hard to feel like there isn’t a better option than just lots of illegal fireworks every night for a month.
posted by samthemander at 4:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Ironically, I'm realizing that the only time I've called the non-emergency line to make a noise complaint, I've been calling to complain about the entitled hipsters who have parties in their back yard (which is directly under my bedroom window) until about 3 am.
I don't know how it is where you live but in Seattle, the non-emergency number queues your call up to 911 and puts it through when there's a lull in true emergency calls. Which, once I realized that, made me leary of complaining about comparatively trivial events thereafter.
posted by y2karl at 4:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I don't know how it is where you live but in Seattle, the non-emergency number queues your call up to 911 and puts it through when there's a lull in true emergency calls. Which, once I realized that, made me leary of complaining about comparatively trivial events thereafter.
posted by y2karl at 4:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'll see your "urban neighbors of color and loud fireworks" and raise you a "redneck white neighbors just outside the city limits (and sometimes inside) and loud fireworks." My niece lives down the road from some and her dog is having a nervous breakdown.
posted by emjaybee at 4:24 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 4:24 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
The brand of white person that does this is the colonizer. We used to call them gentrifiers but I like colonizers better. They're the folks who are priced out of the middle class white neighborhoods and moving into the "affordable", "emerging" neighborhoods
When someone is priced out of their neighborhood and has to move, they are victims of gentrification.
I'm uncomfortable with having lines about whose suffering can be dismissed or demeaned. I'm happy to demean people who call police over neighborly behavior because that's someone choosing to be an asshole (and outright endangering people), but there too often also feels like a disconcerting undercurrent where the victims of gentrification turn on each other for having differing values, as much or more than on the macro forces that put everyone in the same boat of losing their homes and becoming part of the pressure on the person on the next rung down. It bums me out.
posted by anonymisc at 4:26 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
When someone is priced out of their neighborhood and has to move, they are victims of gentrification.
I'm uncomfortable with having lines about whose suffering can be dismissed or demeaned. I'm happy to demean people who call police over neighborly behavior because that's someone choosing to be an asshole (and outright endangering people), but there too often also feels like a disconcerting undercurrent where the victims of gentrification turn on each other for having differing values, as much or more than on the macro forces that put everyone in the same boat of losing their homes and becoming part of the pressure on the person on the next rung down. It bums me out.
posted by anonymisc at 4:26 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Part of this is (some) middle-class white people being incredibly unwilling to approach people of color or teenagers generally, probably due to many years of being fed a media diet about how teenagers are scary and violent and POC ditto. In Peoria, I was constantly astonished how white people I knew would sit and seethe rather than approach a group of teenagers and ask them to cut it out. (My personal neighborhood was mixed-race and mixed-class, and definitely not gentrifying.) There was a thing while I was there where teenagers walked down the middle of the damn road in large rowdy groups, which was indeed extremely irritating. And people would just sit there and seethe! And call the cops if they got mad enough! They would never, ever go TALK to the teenagers. Which I did all the time! I'd just mosey out into the middle of the road and say, "Hey, you guys are kinda blocking traffic, and I know I'm being a bit of a mom, but I AM a mom, and you're making me really nervous one of you is going to get hit by a car. Would you mind moving to the sidewalk?" They ALWAYS DID. They always apologized and did! Nobody was ever even rude to me about it! I ask rowdy teenagers to "keep it down to a dull roar" or "make sure you're watching out for the little kids" or whatever ALL THE DAMN TIME. Most of the time they're just high-spirited and a bit thoughtless, and if you approach them and ask them nicely to be aware that small children are using the playground too or that they're getting too noisy in the movie or that there are cars on the road and they might get run over, they are perfectly charming about it, and perfectly capable to making a more pro-social decision on their own once you've alerted them to the issue in a friendly manner. But (some) white people 24/7 act like I'm about to get shot for daring to approach large groups of rowdy teenagers, and people are constantly shocked that I do it.
Similarly I am willing to approach and have a polite (although not always friendly) conversation with adults who are doing something dangerous/seriously problematic/illegal and ask them to stop. It is not always pleasant, because conflict sucks and is stressful, but when I was on school board someone upbraided me for using the word "sucks," saying that I was supposed to be setting a moral example for the community, and I was like, I AM supposed to be setting a moral example for the community, fuck yeah! and now I work hard to set a positive moral example by calling out the asshole at the playground being nasty to disabled kids (true story) or talking to the fireworks family (who have set their house on fire TWICE and a neighbor's house once and I honestly don't understand how they still have insurance) and asking them to find somewhere to do it that's not near everyone ELSE'S houses or directly calling people out when they're being racist in public meetings. Middle-aged white-lady armor is some good stuff, so I try to use mine on the side of the angels, and belligerently throw my privilege around to make space for people who don't have as much privilege and need to be heard/protected/whatever.
Anyway, it's these white people who are terrified of conflict and TERRIFIED of their neighbors, who want a particular standard of living (and aren't real good at live-and-let-live, or differing cultural expectations), who are just terrified to approach other human persons with their problems/concerns, because they're afraid they might not be other human persons, but violent animals. So they call the cops, because the cops are friendly (to them) and professional (to them) and then they can basically "hire" someone else to have the conflict for them.
I'm somewhat in sympathy with the fireworks complaints, though, for two reasons: 1) THE REPEATED HOUSEFIRES and 2) in Peoria, amateur fireworks triggered a shit-ton of gun alerts, some of them automated by a gunfire-sensing system, some by terrified neighbors (black and white; gun violence issues were worse in black neighborhoods), and that's a really bad outcome that is putting dumb kids with fireworks at risk of getting shot by cops and diverting cop resources from actual shootings to mere illegal fireworks.
"Two of the homes own taco trucks"
What I am getting here is that you live on a block with two taco trucks and some people think it's NOT paradise? Are they minions of Satan? (Also, are there any houses for sale on your miraculous two-taco-truck street? Um, asking for a friend.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:40 PM on June 29, 2018 [48 favorites]
Similarly I am willing to approach and have a polite (although not always friendly) conversation with adults who are doing something dangerous/seriously problematic/illegal and ask them to stop. It is not always pleasant, because conflict sucks and is stressful, but when I was on school board someone upbraided me for using the word "sucks," saying that I was supposed to be setting a moral example for the community, and I was like, I AM supposed to be setting a moral example for the community, fuck yeah! and now I work hard to set a positive moral example by calling out the asshole at the playground being nasty to disabled kids (true story) or talking to the fireworks family (who have set their house on fire TWICE and a neighbor's house once and I honestly don't understand how they still have insurance) and asking them to find somewhere to do it that's not near everyone ELSE'S houses or directly calling people out when they're being racist in public meetings. Middle-aged white-lady armor is some good stuff, so I try to use mine on the side of the angels, and belligerently throw my privilege around to make space for people who don't have as much privilege and need to be heard/protected/whatever.
Anyway, it's these white people who are terrified of conflict and TERRIFIED of their neighbors, who want a particular standard of living (and aren't real good at live-and-let-live, or differing cultural expectations), who are just terrified to approach other human persons with their problems/concerns, because they're afraid they might not be other human persons, but violent animals. So they call the cops, because the cops are friendly (to them) and professional (to them) and then they can basically "hire" someone else to have the conflict for them.
I'm somewhat in sympathy with the fireworks complaints, though, for two reasons: 1) THE REPEATED HOUSEFIRES and 2) in Peoria, amateur fireworks triggered a shit-ton of gun alerts, some of them automated by a gunfire-sensing system, some by terrified neighbors (black and white; gun violence issues were worse in black neighborhoods), and that's a really bad outcome that is putting dumb kids with fireworks at risk of getting shot by cops and diverting cop resources from actual shootings to mere illegal fireworks.
"Two of the homes own taco trucks"
What I am getting here is that you live on a block with two taco trucks and some people think it's NOT paradise? Are they minions of Satan? (Also, are there any houses for sale on your miraculous two-taco-truck street? Um, asking for a friend.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:40 PM on June 29, 2018 [48 favorites]
yeah, i don't really feel victimized by gentrification for having to move out of my west village apartment when the rent went up from 3800 to 4500. i can acknowledge that rents in that part of the city are fucking insane and deranged, but as a person who could afford to annually pay in rent a sum that is larger than the average american's annual income, i'm not going to claim victimhood and insult people who are being forced out of their inexpensive lifelong rentals in gentrifying neighborhoods. i knew what that 50k/yr scorpion was when i picked it up.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:48 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 4:48 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
What I am getting here is that you live on a block with two taco trucks and some people think it's NOT paradise?
Oh god, my neighbors are so scared that food trucks will invade our neighborhood for some reason that I can't fathom. There's a game-board tavern going in in our little business district and they want to have food trucks in the parking lot because they won't have a kitchen and my neighbors are freaked out about it.
posted by octothorpe at 5:10 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Oh god, my neighbors are so scared that food trucks will invade our neighborhood for some reason that I can't fathom. There's a game-board tavern going in in our little business district and they want to have food trucks in the parking lot because they won't have a kitchen and my neighbors are freaked out about it.
posted by octothorpe at 5:10 PM on June 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I'm definitely awful with conflict, and will avoid it at all costs, so I end up just quietly seething. The other thing, though, is that I'm definitely not comfortable approaching other men about stuff. I've had enough guys try to fight me over dumb stuff that I just don't know what to expect. I look about as threatening as a willow branch, so I don't get guys who want to prove something, but the flipside is that I've had guys want to push me around. That comes back to knowing the people in your neighborhood. There are people I may not know, but we've seen each other around the neighborhood, and I'd feel a lot more comfortable approaching them than someone I don't know.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 5:13 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 5:13 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Between 2015 and 2017, the 311 hotline and app received about 3,000 quality-of-life complaints for Hernandez’s block — a massive increase over the previous three years, when there were only approximately 130 complaints...BuzzFeed News also talked to eight new residents who’d lived on the block for one to two years. They were divided on whether the block was too loud, and none said they had filed a 311 complaint. While it gets loud on weekends, they said, the majority of these residents were surprised to hear that there were so many complaints.
This happens in other cases, not just gentrification. In 2016, my local airport had half of the noise complaints coming from two people, one of whom called 1,707 times in a year - the equivalent of 5 times a day, every day.
This is actually common in the airport world; this study [PDF] details noise complaint information from a number of airports. 73% of the Denver airport's complaints in a year were from one guy calling 3,555 times (10 times a day) - he lives 30 miles from the airport. 78% of National Airport complaints, almost 7000 in a year, come from two people at the same residence in NW DC. In one month, 53 residents in Portola Valley lodged a combined 25,259 calls to SFO.
It's to the point that it's really a mental disorder; surely no sane person thinks that sure, the first 3,554 calls they made to complain didn't shut down Denver International Fucking Airport but the next one will.
When they're going up against a high status actor, it's one thing, but when it targets low status actors like people of colour, it's potentially devastating. And don't forget that the increasing use of algorithms and predictive data could easily fall prey to these sorts of deranged people.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 5:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
This happens in other cases, not just gentrification. In 2016, my local airport had half of the noise complaints coming from two people, one of whom called 1,707 times in a year - the equivalent of 5 times a day, every day.
This is actually common in the airport world; this study [PDF] details noise complaint information from a number of airports. 73% of the Denver airport's complaints in a year were from one guy calling 3,555 times (10 times a day) - he lives 30 miles from the airport. 78% of National Airport complaints, almost 7000 in a year, come from two people at the same residence in NW DC. In one month, 53 residents in Portola Valley lodged a combined 25,259 calls to SFO.
It's to the point that it's really a mental disorder; surely no sane person thinks that sure, the first 3,554 calls they made to complain didn't shut down Denver International Fucking Airport but the next one will.
When they're going up against a high status actor, it's one thing, but when it targets low status actors like people of colour, it's potentially devastating. And don't forget that the increasing use of algorithms and predictive data could easily fall prey to these sorts of deranged people.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 5:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
Eh. As a woman living alone, I am not going to go outside at 2 a.m. to ask a bunch of drunk men if they can please keep it down. Call that chicken if you want, call it unneighborly, but unless you've done it, I'm not listening.
talking to the fireworks family (who have set their house on fire TWICE and a neighbor's house once and I honestly don't understand how they still have insurance) and asking them to find somewhere to do it that's not near everyone ELSE'S houses
...but it sounds like they're still doing it, endangering your neighborhood.
I mean, the article is talking about a real phenomenon, but sometimes with Mefi we jump from "it's obnoxious and maybe even dangerous to call 311 on some guys outside playing music during their daily dominos game, so don't do it" to "if you ever do anything to seek to have a democratically-instituted noise ordinance enforced, even in the middle of the freaking night, even if the activity in question is actively dangerous and illegal, you're a colonizer putting your own needs above everyone else's," without a stop at common sense in between.
I personally wonder if the uptick in calls sometimes (obviously not in the Domino Nemesis's neighborhood) reflects less a decrease in tolerance and more of an increase in people who think their complaints will be listened to. Being annoyed at a loud party going on next door past midnight on a work night is not the sole province of ex-suburbanites.
posted by praemunire at 5:20 PM on June 29, 2018 [33 favorites]
talking to the fireworks family (who have set their house on fire TWICE and a neighbor's house once and I honestly don't understand how they still have insurance) and asking them to find somewhere to do it that's not near everyone ELSE'S houses
...but it sounds like they're still doing it, endangering your neighborhood.
I mean, the article is talking about a real phenomenon, but sometimes with Mefi we jump from "it's obnoxious and maybe even dangerous to call 311 on some guys outside playing music during their daily dominos game, so don't do it" to "if you ever do anything to seek to have a democratically-instituted noise ordinance enforced, even in the middle of the freaking night, even if the activity in question is actively dangerous and illegal, you're a colonizer putting your own needs above everyone else's," without a stop at common sense in between.
I personally wonder if the uptick in calls sometimes (obviously not in the Domino Nemesis's neighborhood) reflects less a decrease in tolerance and more of an increase in people who think their complaints will be listened to. Being annoyed at a loud party going on next door past midnight on a work night is not the sole province of ex-suburbanites.
posted by praemunire at 5:20 PM on June 29, 2018 [33 favorites]
Poffin Boffin, I agree that your choice to pick up a scorpion doesn't pertain to what I was trying to describe. I had thought there was enough context but perhaps not.
posted by anonymisc at 5:26 PM on June 29, 2018
posted by anonymisc at 5:26 PM on June 29, 2018
Our 311 system is only on call 9 - 5 M-F so it's not like you can even call them about loud parties. I mean you can but no one will hear your voicemail until Monday morning.
posted by octothorpe at 5:27 PM on June 29, 2018
posted by octothorpe at 5:27 PM on June 29, 2018
If this is a repetitive problem then and you don't want to go down in your pajamas then talk to them about it the next morning. Or when they're not drunk. Or when they're not literally lighting the fireworks. "I'm not going down in my pajamas" doesn't mean you can't go down during the day, in your day clothes, and talk to them like a human being.
posted by Anonymous at 5:36 PM on June 29, 2018
posted by Anonymous at 5:36 PM on June 29, 2018
Part of this is (some) middle-class white people being incredibly unwilling to approach people of color or teenagers generally
Hah now I remember the time when I lived in a second-floor apartment and my bedroom window was right over the stoop and I had a bad cold and went to bed at like 10PM on a Friday and got woken up by Loud Teens Sitting On The Stoop Who Did Not Live In My Building and stomped downstairs and swung the door open and basically was a Grumpy Old Man to them which consisted of me saying “can you guys move it along?” and twirled around letting the door close on them as they all had the Teen Reaction as I thought to myself “hah fuckers you’ll be my age much sooner than you think”
But I did not call the police, because I am a normal human being
posted by Automocar at 5:36 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Hah now I remember the time when I lived in a second-floor apartment and my bedroom window was right over the stoop and I had a bad cold and went to bed at like 10PM on a Friday and got woken up by Loud Teens Sitting On The Stoop Who Did Not Live In My Building and stomped downstairs and swung the door open and basically was a Grumpy Old Man to them which consisted of me saying “can you guys move it along?” and twirled around letting the door close on them as they all had the Teen Reaction as I thought to myself “hah fuckers you’ll be my age much sooner than you think”
But I did not call the police, because I am a normal human being
posted by Automocar at 5:36 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
This is why you visit a place you want to buy, in the day time, in the evening, at night, on a weekend, during a week day. And if the neighborhood noise and activity level are not to your liking... don't fucking move there.
posted by headspace at 5:59 PM on June 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by headspace at 5:59 PM on June 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
I live in Kingston, Ontario. It's pretty damn white (at least to me, a native US Southerner, who spent her adult life in Intown Atlanta before marrying and moving up here). We bought a house in the Skeleton Park neighbourhood, which hadn't really started gentrifying until about 2010 or thereabouts. All the posh or middle class white folks lived in the suburbs or in the really tony houses right near Queen's University. And then they all wanted to live downtown so they started renovating and buying out the original residents. We bought a house in 2015. Our realtor said that our street was essentially a "neighbourhood in transition." As I said, I'm from Atlanta. I have seen firsthand hardcore gentrification. This is some weird ass white people moving in for the "funkiness" and then complaining about it. "Oh we love artists! We love the diversity! We love how unique it is!" The fuck you do. You complain about the original inhabitants. You complain about bike theft (learn to lock up your bike better or some shit). You complain when there are white teenagers roaming after dark. (It's what teens do; I did it in my middle class suburb as a teen.) You complain about tagging and graffiti. You insist you want diversity in your neighbours, but you constantly gossip about them on the neighbourhood FB page. (Which used to be a great source for getting rid of stuff, trading stuff, letting folks know about small niche events by artists and activists, and is now a bunch of crybabies who bitch about the amount of stray cats on one street, or why isn't the wading pool open for the summer because Tobin and Arrow need to splash around.)
I like living in city neighbourhoods, for the good stuff and even for the bad stuff. It makes me know who my neighbours are, who says hi, or who keeps themselves to themselves. I am not calling the cops on anyone unless I have damn good reason to.
posted by Kitteh at 6:00 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I like living in city neighbourhoods, for the good stuff and even for the bad stuff. It makes me know who my neighbours are, who says hi, or who keeps themselves to themselves. I am not calling the cops on anyone unless I have damn good reason to.
posted by Kitteh at 6:00 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
"...but it sounds like they're still doing it, endangering your neighborhood."
We luckily had a fire department direct number to call about exactly this sort of thing. The fire chief could issue tickets/summonses, but didn't carry a gun. When the neighbor felt like his fireworks parties were more important than everyone else's houses not burning down, the neighborhood eventually called the fire department number.
They're not so good for teenagers setting off fireworks in the non-flammable street (and risking getting shot by overexcited cops), but they were great for backyard house-fire-risking fireworks and backyard leaf burning (ditto). Also these people were PHENOMENAL idiots who'd paid thousands and thousands of dollars in tickets, and $28,000 after one of the house fires, and just didn't see any reason to stop setting their house on fire, so I'm not sure what short of jail would have stopped them. (And actually there was some light jail on a couple of occasions, but that didn't seem to dampen their enthusiasm for setting their house on fire.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:03 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
We luckily had a fire department direct number to call about exactly this sort of thing. The fire chief could issue tickets/summonses, but didn't carry a gun. When the neighbor felt like his fireworks parties were more important than everyone else's houses not burning down, the neighborhood eventually called the fire department number.
They're not so good for teenagers setting off fireworks in the non-flammable street (and risking getting shot by overexcited cops), but they were great for backyard house-fire-risking fireworks and backyard leaf burning (ditto). Also these people were PHENOMENAL idiots who'd paid thousands and thousands of dollars in tickets, and $28,000 after one of the house fires, and just didn't see any reason to stop setting their house on fire, so I'm not sure what short of jail would have stopped them. (And actually there was some light jail on a couple of occasions, but that didn't seem to dampen their enthusiasm for setting their house on fire.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:03 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Eyebrows McGee - of course! I should just call the fire department about the fireworks, not the cops! They’re not that far away so they can probably get there pretty quickly too, if interested. I may try that on Sunday night (I figure weekends are fair play haha).
posted by samthemander at 6:05 PM on June 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by samthemander at 6:05 PM on June 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am 48 and live in a suburb in the south. It boggles my mind that people shooting off loud firecrackers any day other than July 4 or New Years is a thing anywhere. I wouldn’t move into a neighborhood with a certain character and they ask everyone there to change, because I’m not a dick , but giant parties all night and people cranking beats at 3 am sounds like a personal hell. I am a musician but even when I was younger and playing out, someone in the next apartment making a shit ton of noise late at night would result in me doing some serious banging on the wall. I mean I had a job even then. I guess what I’m saying is that I’m ok with being a boring surburbanite who likes to be able to get in bed at 10 pm on a weeknight and not have to wear earmuffs over earplugs.
posted by freecellwizard at 6:08 PM on June 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 6:08 PM on June 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
that didn't seem to dampen their enthusiasm for setting their house on fire
I sort of want more stories about these neighbors
What makes them tick
I mean, other than fire
posted by schadenfrau at 6:13 PM on June 29, 2018 [35 favorites]
I sort of want more stories about these neighbors
What makes them tick
I mean, other than fire
posted by schadenfrau at 6:13 PM on June 29, 2018 [35 favorites]
I’m regretting my comment already because it probably sounds like I’m defending the gentrifiers. Not at all ... I probably wouldn’t do well living someplace like NYC at all. It’s just really a different way of life. I know city people who come down here and can’t sleep because it’s too quiet or they hear the crickets or cicadas. I can handle that but guys racing sport bikes 2 miles away drives me into a murderous rage.
posted by freecellwizard at 6:16 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 6:16 PM on June 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
If this is a repetitive problem then and you don't want to go down in your pajamas then talk to them about it the next morning. Or when they're not drunk. Or when they're not literally lighting the fireworks. "I'm not going down in my pajamas" doesn't mean you can't go down during the day, in your day clothes, and talk to them like a human being.
I sort of feel that I can distinguish in the commenters here people who actually live in neighborhoods where this kind of thing happens, so can at least appreciate the nuances, and people who are imagining what they would do from a comfortable remove. Point A: when you have a bunch of drunk idiots whooping it up in the alley at 2 am YOU DO NOT NECESSARILY KNOW WHO THEY ARE. Not because the neighborhood is a mystery to you, but because you are looking down from a window several stories up into a darkish area where, by the way, they aren't checking addresses to make sure you're hyperlocal before they let you in. Who's sponsoring the party? How the devil do you know? (My PJs have eff-all to do with it; it has everything to do with not antagonizing groups of strange rowdy drunk men late at night.) Point B: the kind of men who are available to be loudly drunk in public past midnight on a work night do not actually give a shit about the neighborhood's quality of life, or they would not be doing it in the first place. It's not a secret to them that many of their neighbors are working people or have little kids who need to sleep. They just don't care, and they are not going to respond well to requests that they change their behavior. Sometimes you live in neighborhoods where some of your neighbors are, in fact, shitty neighbors. This takes different forms across different social classes, but the working poor certainly aren't exempt from it.
I haven't had to call 311 on anyone in years and years. I have lived in urban environments basically my whole life and I have a very high tolerance for street noise. The last time I had a noise problem with a neighbor I went and spoke to them, and it was fine. But there's a certain Mr. Rogers-fantasy-quality to some of the theorizing here. You need to respect the social structure of the neighborhood you move to. You have to understand that you're not going to get Greenwich-quality quiet in Harlem. You have to be very careful about invoking the machinery of the state in any form against your neighbors of color in particular. Way too many white people don't do these things, and it has gotten and will get people killed. But you also have the right to a reasonable degree of peace in the middle of a work/school night (it's not like most of your neighbors don't want the same thing), and it's not always possible to solve a noise problem with sweet reason and a harmonious meeting of the minds.
posted by praemunire at 6:42 PM on June 29, 2018 [54 favorites]
I sort of feel that I can distinguish in the commenters here people who actually live in neighborhoods where this kind of thing happens, so can at least appreciate the nuances, and people who are imagining what they would do from a comfortable remove. Point A: when you have a bunch of drunk idiots whooping it up in the alley at 2 am YOU DO NOT NECESSARILY KNOW WHO THEY ARE. Not because the neighborhood is a mystery to you, but because you are looking down from a window several stories up into a darkish area where, by the way, they aren't checking addresses to make sure you're hyperlocal before they let you in. Who's sponsoring the party? How the devil do you know? (My PJs have eff-all to do with it; it has everything to do with not antagonizing groups of strange rowdy drunk men late at night.) Point B: the kind of men who are available to be loudly drunk in public past midnight on a work night do not actually give a shit about the neighborhood's quality of life, or they would not be doing it in the first place. It's not a secret to them that many of their neighbors are working people or have little kids who need to sleep. They just don't care, and they are not going to respond well to requests that they change their behavior. Sometimes you live in neighborhoods where some of your neighbors are, in fact, shitty neighbors. This takes different forms across different social classes, but the working poor certainly aren't exempt from it.
I haven't had to call 311 on anyone in years and years. I have lived in urban environments basically my whole life and I have a very high tolerance for street noise. The last time I had a noise problem with a neighbor I went and spoke to them, and it was fine. But there's a certain Mr. Rogers-fantasy-quality to some of the theorizing here. You need to respect the social structure of the neighborhood you move to. You have to understand that you're not going to get Greenwich-quality quiet in Harlem. You have to be very careful about invoking the machinery of the state in any form against your neighbors of color in particular. Way too many white people don't do these things, and it has gotten and will get people killed. But you also have the right to a reasonable degree of peace in the middle of a work/school night (it's not like most of your neighbors don't want the same thing), and it's not always possible to solve a noise problem with sweet reason and a harmonious meeting of the minds.
posted by praemunire at 6:42 PM on June 29, 2018 [54 favorites]
I once made the mistake of buying a house next to a super complainer. Now admittedly the previous owners were pretty bad neighbours so the guy probably got in the habit of dialing By-Law but it was pretty ridiculous. He called the city 18 times in the first week I lived there. He'd call them at least 3 times a week. 90% of the time his complaint wasn't actionable (no it's not illegal to have a quiet BBQ at 5pm on a Wednesday). 9.9% of the time his complaint was technically valid but only a antisocial nitpicker would call in a complaint (EG: friend comes to visit for a long weekend and parks on the street in front of my house for the duration. Get a visit from bylaw on the Monday because technically you can't park in one spot more than 48hrs in a row and annoying neighbour called it in). Friend moves car to in front of annoying neighbour's house. :D ) . And like 0.1% of the time might have been an honest complaint (Like when we built a 10X8 shed without a permit when unbenownst to us 8x8 is the maximum unpermitted size. Paid the permit fee; no problems with the shed).
It was so crazy one year when the local newspaper published a top ten list of "problem properties" we were on it at #6. Which was pretty surreal because they never contacted us. First we noticed was suddenly hundreds of cars cruised by our house one morning (The street was only one block long and usually only saw local traffic). We were building a fence and it was like being on the feature float of a parade.
And to put it in perspective before and since living there for 8 years I've only seen a By-Law officer once. He stopped to let me know I'd left my sprinkler on in my back yard (my timer had failed, it had been running for over a day and someone walking up the alley called it in)
I'm relatively poor so I bought the cheapest habitable house I could find in Durham NC, which ended up being in the "bad" (meaning scruffy-looking and non-white) part of northeast downtown. I've been here over a year and guess what: zero bad stuff has happened. The greatest crime anyone's committed has been having outdoor barbecues or riding noisy mopeds around. It makes me angry because if it were a white neighborhood it would be expensive and trendy, yet there's nothing wrong with it as-is!
My current house is also in the "bad" part of town (IE: where poor people and minorities live) but it is also objectively IMO the best place to live in town. It's on the north side of the E-W valley so lots of sun; it's flat so biking and walking anywhere is easy and if not the transit is as good as anywhere in town; it's on the valley bottom so winter comes late and leaves early (easily two weeks on either end compared to the tony neighbourhoods on the hill); there are beaches on two rivers within walking distance; and it is within walking distance to down town while still for the most part being low and medium density housing. Yet because of a quirk of historical development poor people live here so places are 30% cheaper than any of the objectively worse neighbourhoods. It's hilarious and for once I'm actually happy about other people's isms because without them I wouldn't be able to afford to live where I do.
posted by Mitheral at 6:44 PM on June 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
It was so crazy one year when the local newspaper published a top ten list of "problem properties" we were on it at #6. Which was pretty surreal because they never contacted us. First we noticed was suddenly hundreds of cars cruised by our house one morning (The street was only one block long and usually only saw local traffic). We were building a fence and it was like being on the feature float of a parade.
And to put it in perspective before and since living there for 8 years I've only seen a By-Law officer once. He stopped to let me know I'd left my sprinkler on in my back yard (my timer had failed, it had been running for over a day and someone walking up the alley called it in)
I'm relatively poor so I bought the cheapest habitable house I could find in Durham NC, which ended up being in the "bad" (meaning scruffy-looking and non-white) part of northeast downtown. I've been here over a year and guess what: zero bad stuff has happened. The greatest crime anyone's committed has been having outdoor barbecues or riding noisy mopeds around. It makes me angry because if it were a white neighborhood it would be expensive and trendy, yet there's nothing wrong with it as-is!
My current house is also in the "bad" part of town (IE: where poor people and minorities live) but it is also objectively IMO the best place to live in town. It's on the north side of the E-W valley so lots of sun; it's flat so biking and walking anywhere is easy and if not the transit is as good as anywhere in town; it's on the valley bottom so winter comes late and leaves early (easily two weeks on either end compared to the tony neighbourhoods on the hill); there are beaches on two rivers within walking distance; and it is within walking distance to down town while still for the most part being low and medium density housing. Yet because of a quirk of historical development poor people live here so places are 30% cheaper than any of the objectively worse neighbourhoods. It's hilarious and for once I'm actually happy about other people's isms because without them I wouldn't be able to afford to live where I do.
posted by Mitheral at 6:44 PM on June 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
"I sort of want more stories about these neighbors
What makes them tick
I mean, other than fire"
Running an illegal daycare.
Running an unpermitted lawncare company and bringing all the yard waste home to their backyard to pile up because you have to pay to dispose of it otherwise, this is basically why their uncomplicated housefire that should have been easy to put out burned down half their house, all the old dry yardwaste from other people's yards piled against the house.
Building illegal, highly-flammable wooden structures in their backyard, like their entire backyard was half-assed wooden structures, which contributed to the eventual housefires. Like apparently you can build a frame for a trampoline out of waste 2x4s, WHO KNEW. I mean eventually it will collapse on your children, but SO DID EVERYTHING ELSE, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Refusing to obey leash laws and being shocked when their dog ran away AGAIN.
Beer.
I mean they were pretty fun if they came to YOUR party, they usually brought good beer and they were super-social and fun. But if you went to THEIR party, they'd set shit on fire. While drunk.
Basically they were a specific kind of small-city people: people who'd lived in a rural area outside the city for the past 20 years and who just basically felt no obligation to obey city laws because when they lived on a farm they piled and burned their own yard waste, and shot off fireworks at will, and built their own outbuildings however they wanted, and didn't leash their dog, and they didn't see why they should have to stop those things now!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:59 PM on June 29, 2018 [27 favorites]
What makes them tick
I mean, other than fire"
Running an illegal daycare.
Running an unpermitted lawncare company and bringing all the yard waste home to their backyard to pile up because you have to pay to dispose of it otherwise, this is basically why their uncomplicated housefire that should have been easy to put out burned down half their house, all the old dry yardwaste from other people's yards piled against the house.
Building illegal, highly-flammable wooden structures in their backyard, like their entire backyard was half-assed wooden structures, which contributed to the eventual housefires. Like apparently you can build a frame for a trampoline out of waste 2x4s, WHO KNEW. I mean eventually it will collapse on your children, but SO DID EVERYTHING ELSE, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Refusing to obey leash laws and being shocked when their dog ran away AGAIN.
Beer.
I mean they were pretty fun if they came to YOUR party, they usually brought good beer and they were super-social and fun. But if you went to THEIR party, they'd set shit on fire. While drunk.
Basically they were a specific kind of small-city people: people who'd lived in a rural area outside the city for the past 20 years and who just basically felt no obligation to obey city laws because when they lived on a farm they piled and burned their own yard waste, and shot off fireworks at will, and built their own outbuildings however they wanted, and didn't leash their dog, and they didn't see why they should have to stop those things now!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:59 PM on June 29, 2018 [27 favorites]
> Also these people were PHENOMENAL idiots who'd paid thousands and thousands of dollars in tickets, and $28,000 after one of the house fires, and just didn't see any reason to stop setting their house on fire, so I'm not sure what short of jail would have stopped them.
Sounds like an excellent place to store your boxes of oily rags and half-empty gas cans.
posted by davelog at 7:04 PM on June 29, 2018
Sounds like an excellent place to store your boxes of oily rags and half-empty gas cans.
posted by davelog at 7:04 PM on June 29, 2018
Like apparently you can build a frame for a trampoline out of waste 2x4s, WHO KNEW.
Did they ever pave their driveway with hash
(In my head I am imagining all children escaped childhood unscathed and reasonably well loved, because...yeah)
posted by schadenfrau at 7:14 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Did they ever pave their driveway with hash
(In my head I am imagining all children escaped childhood unscathed and reasonably well loved, because...yeah)
posted by schadenfrau at 7:14 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm just gonna share something I learned the hard way: when you call 911 and say your friend is taking about suicide, and he's a danger to himself, they typically send the cops. And if you say "wait no I really don't want cops to come" it sounds sketchy as hell, and they come anyway.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:44 PM on June 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:44 PM on June 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
One of things that has always appealed to me about living in a big city was community interaction. I think it would be a hoot to live in a place where there were street dances and community pot-lucks, folks sitting on the stoop in the summer, kids playing ball in the street, and adults playing dominoes. That's what a makes a neighborhood. For a bit I lived in 'the projects' in Pittsburgh. I remember lots of music and occasionally couples loudly fighting, but it seems like it didn't get out of hand because there were referees. I fell off my bike riding in the middle of the street, and a kind of smelly really, REALLY BIG guy picked me up and wiped the gravel off my hands. He put the chain back on my bike, which was cool, because otherwise I would have had to wait till Dad got home from work. The best fun was playing in the water from the open fire plug with a bunch of screaming kids, most of us prancing around half-nekkid in our soaked and saggy underwear. Adults were watching, and they didn't care!
The best place is a mixed community, all ages--single and couples, older folks, people with kids, folks trying to make a living. Most of the time, places like that will have it wrapped up at a reasonable hour, or more than one person will be opening the window to yell, "Shut the f*ck up!"
IMO, a lot of what is probably going on the situations described is racial conflict exacerbated and sanctioned by the current social climate. Some of it is just people being assholes. Assholes are the ones leaving their trash around, partying till 3am or setting off fireworks. Other assholes are the ones calling the cops on folks just living their lives in the daylight hours.
Around here, the assholes are the ones that move here for the "rural" life. Then they bitch about crowing roosters, smell from the cows, somebody's goat getting loose, farmers running the baler at night*, and the kids that rode down the road and their horses crapped.
* Farmers gotta put hay up at night, otherwise the forage won't have enough moisture. It's that high plains desert no humidity.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:10 PM on June 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
The best place is a mixed community, all ages--single and couples, older folks, people with kids, folks trying to make a living. Most of the time, places like that will have it wrapped up at a reasonable hour, or more than one person will be opening the window to yell, "Shut the f*ck up!"
IMO, a lot of what is probably going on the situations described is racial conflict exacerbated and sanctioned by the current social climate. Some of it is just people being assholes. Assholes are the ones leaving their trash around, partying till 3am or setting off fireworks. Other assholes are the ones calling the cops on folks just living their lives in the daylight hours.
Around here, the assholes are the ones that move here for the "rural" life. Then they bitch about crowing roosters, smell from the cows, somebody's goat getting loose, farmers running the baler at night*, and the kids that rode down the road and their horses crapped.
* Farmers gotta put hay up at night, otherwise the forage won't have enough moisture. It's that high plains desert no humidity.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:10 PM on June 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
Anybody that complains about the ice cream truck deserves cankers and boils. It's all good unless the man comes at 9:30 pm, and your bedtime is at 9. That's just wrong.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:15 PM on June 29, 2018
posted by BlueHorse at 8:15 PM on June 29, 2018
I'm white. My rule for calling the cops is, "is this a situation that will be improved by the addition of unpredictable power-tripping fascists with lethal weapons and zero accountability?"
You might be surprised how rarely those kinds of situations actually come up.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 8:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
You might be surprised how rarely those kinds of situations actually come up.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 8:17 PM on June 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
Anybody that complains about the ice cream truck deserves cankers and boils. It's all good unless the man comes at 9:30 pm, and your bedtime is at 9
Pursuant to praemunire's point above: in some cities, in some neighbourhoods, the ice cream truck doesn't 'come' so much as arrive to stay. The trucks that get complaints tend to be ones that park along the curb and stay there for hours on end, playing the same endless jingle for hours on end. They are not supposed to do this, according to the law, but some do. That, or they'll do a loop of the same block all day -- I once lived in a place where, from about 10am to about 11pm, starting intermittently in March, continuing daily from June-September, and not stopping until late October, I'd hear the ice cream truck at least once an hour, on the hour, many days. This is legal, but god, it's... a lot.
Again, this is not a call-the-cops type offense, given how calling the cops usually works out, but people expressing annoyance at ice cream trucks aren't necessarily cantankerous misery-piles who can't bear for children to have twenty minutes of joy once a day and want all the ice cream sellers to starve. Sometimes the ice cream truck just literally never shuts up, and it's not like you can just ask the person running the truck to turn the music off. They will not do this.
posted by halation at 8:35 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Pursuant to praemunire's point above: in some cities, in some neighbourhoods, the ice cream truck doesn't 'come' so much as arrive to stay. The trucks that get complaints tend to be ones that park along the curb and stay there for hours on end, playing the same endless jingle for hours on end. They are not supposed to do this, according to the law, but some do. That, or they'll do a loop of the same block all day -- I once lived in a place where, from about 10am to about 11pm, starting intermittently in March, continuing daily from June-September, and not stopping until late October, I'd hear the ice cream truck at least once an hour, on the hour, many days. This is legal, but god, it's... a lot.
Again, this is not a call-the-cops type offense, given how calling the cops usually works out, but people expressing annoyance at ice cream trucks aren't necessarily cantankerous misery-piles who can't bear for children to have twenty minutes of joy once a day and want all the ice cream sellers to starve. Sometimes the ice cream truck just literally never shuts up, and it's not like you can just ask the person running the truck to turn the music off. They will not do this.
posted by halation at 8:35 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Running an unpermitted lawncare company and bringing all the yard waste home to their backyard to pile up because you have to pay to dispose of it otherwise
Ah HA! This explains those autumnal yt videos where, in a small backyard in a relatively densely-packed neighborhood, someone has a disproportionately enormous pile of leaves that they jump off their deck into. And they tricked me into imagining sentimental veneration of It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown was involved, or something like that.
posted by XMLicious at 8:37 PM on June 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you're driving drunk, I will do all I can to get your tag and car make and model and color and location and direction and I will call 911. I'll stay with you, too, from a fair distance, to report on your location in real time.
I will call 911 if my neighbor downstairs goes off of her meds again and goes totally 'round the bend, smashing her car into everything, raving and ranting. Not her fault but not mine either, and she needs help that I cannot give.
I will call 911 when I see a person passed out, laying on asphalt maybe and it's 100F, and he's maybe missing a shoe, clearly in trouble.
I called 911 last week, when a man was so drunk he fell over on his bicycle and lay in the street, conscious but barely conscious, I turned on my flashers and stayed there until an ambulance showed so that no one would run over the guy.
I called 911 when I drove across the Congress Avenue bridge over the Colorado river late one night and right in the middle of the span a man sat on the rail, looking down at the water.
I call 911 anytime I come on a car wreck, esp if it's a nasty one.
A game of dominoes? A couple of older guys with a tradition of playing dominoes outside on summer nights? That's about as cool a thing that can happen on a summer night in a city.
posted by dancestoblue at 9:39 PM on June 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
I will call 911 if my neighbor downstairs goes off of her meds again and goes totally 'round the bend, smashing her car into everything, raving and ranting. Not her fault but not mine either, and she needs help that I cannot give.
I will call 911 when I see a person passed out, laying on asphalt maybe and it's 100F, and he's maybe missing a shoe, clearly in trouble.
I called 911 last week, when a man was so drunk he fell over on his bicycle and lay in the street, conscious but barely conscious, I turned on my flashers and stayed there until an ambulance showed so that no one would run over the guy.
I called 911 when I drove across the Congress Avenue bridge over the Colorado river late one night and right in the middle of the span a man sat on the rail, looking down at the water.
I call 911 anytime I come on a car wreck, esp if it's a nasty one.
A game of dominoes? A couple of older guys with a tradition of playing dominoes outside on summer nights? That's about as cool a thing that can happen on a summer night in a city.
posted by dancestoblue at 9:39 PM on June 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
There are people blasting music as they drive by my house every night to the point where it rattles the windows. It never occurred to me that calling the police was an option - because 1. who cares and 2. police have real crimes to deal with.
Also, how else would I find out what's hot? I'm middle aged with two kids - THIS IS MY ONLY LINK TO POP CULTURE!
More seriously though, I dislike the whole idea of "if you don't like it, why'd you move there?!" There are a lot of reasons why people live where they live aside from being snooty gentrifiers. With that said, no one with half a brain moves to my neighborhood for the peace and quiet.
posted by Toddles at 10:03 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, how else would I find out what's hot? I'm middle aged with two kids - THIS IS MY ONLY LINK TO POP CULTURE!
More seriously though, I dislike the whole idea of "if you don't like it, why'd you move there?!" There are a lot of reasons why people live where they live aside from being snooty gentrifiers. With that said, no one with half a brain moves to my neighborhood for the peace and quiet.
posted by Toddles at 10:03 PM on June 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
The only times I’ve called 911 on a person, rather than say, a car accident or whatever, they’ve been threatening, scary, belligerent drunk white men.
posted by Grandysaur at 10:11 PM on June 29, 2018
posted by Grandysaur at 10:11 PM on June 29, 2018
“One officer told me that someone kept calling so they had to show up,” said Ledesma. “The cops are bothering us because [someone has] an issue with dominoes? Are you kidding me?”
Also, THIS. Seriously? Cops bully the shit out of people complaining about sexual assault trying to get them to drop it, but they have time for this shit?
I mean. Goddamn.--schadenfrau
Do they have to ever show up, if the situation is clear? rmd1023 said people treat the police like they are customer service, but if they always come out, then that's exactly what they are. The guy at the police station needs to get the balls to answer every-single-call about someone playing dominos in the street with "sorry, we aren't going to come out for someone playing dominos in the street," even if there are 10 calls a day, every day. Maybe the caller would get a clue.
If they always come out for any silly call, even when the situation is clear and well established, then the police department ends up being ruled by the town idiots.
posted by eye of newt at 10:49 PM on June 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also, THIS. Seriously? Cops bully the shit out of people complaining about sexual assault trying to get them to drop it, but they have time for this shit?
I mean. Goddamn.--schadenfrau
Do they have to ever show up, if the situation is clear? rmd1023 said people treat the police like they are customer service, but if they always come out, then that's exactly what they are. The guy at the police station needs to get the balls to answer every-single-call about someone playing dominos in the street with "sorry, we aren't going to come out for someone playing dominos in the street," even if there are 10 calls a day, every day. Maybe the caller would get a clue.
If they always come out for any silly call, even when the situation is clear and well established, then the police department ends up being ruled by the town idiots.
posted by eye of newt at 10:49 PM on June 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
honestly? i assume they come out for stupid insignificant things in certain neighborhoods specifically because they're looking forward to the chance to brutalize minorities.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:52 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:52 PM on June 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
One of the questions I always have in gentrification conversations is: where does everyone think newcomers to a nieghborhood come from? Typically they've been pushed there by the same forces outside their control that create gentrification in the first place; they are not the cause of it, but fellow victims. Rent got unaffordable where they used to live and they looked for a new place to live. With rent control now pretty much nonexistent in NYC, nothing protects anyone but the super rich from the market forces that make it more profitable to own a mostly-empty building of luxury condos than it does to own a building of apartments middle-class people or poor people can afford. Unregulated capitalism is slowly turning NYC into a bland playground for the rich and everyone who isn't a one percenter is getting shuffled around in the wake of capitalism's speedboat.
On the one hand, the fact of gentrification concerns me, as it should any compassionate human being; on the other hand, I've never known what to do about it. Obviously, unleashing the police on one's neighbors is not the best solution, but the people who are suggesting one just go outside at 2AM and have a friendly chat with, say, the owner of a car who has double-parked it and opened all his doors and windows and trunk to reveal the subwoofer that literally takes up the entire trunk so he can blast his music or people who think setting off professional grade fireworks whose explosions you can feel in your chest have a very lopsided idea of neighborliness. The car stereo guys drove the cool old men playing dominoes from my block. The firework guys terrify the old ladies and mothers in my building so much that they now gather inside on the building steps rather than sitting on the stoop. The old ladies have lived here for 50 years and don't feel safe on their own front stoop, and complain often about the fireworks and boomy car stereos.
None of that justifies unleashing the violent arm of the state on one's neighbors, but the problems aren't minor and not solvable with conversation.
posted by eustacescrubb at 10:53 PM on June 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
On the one hand, the fact of gentrification concerns me, as it should any compassionate human being; on the other hand, I've never known what to do about it. Obviously, unleashing the police on one's neighbors is not the best solution, but the people who are suggesting one just go outside at 2AM and have a friendly chat with, say, the owner of a car who has double-parked it and opened all his doors and windows and trunk to reveal the subwoofer that literally takes up the entire trunk so he can blast his music or people who think setting off professional grade fireworks whose explosions you can feel in your chest have a very lopsided idea of neighborliness. The car stereo guys drove the cool old men playing dominoes from my block. The firework guys terrify the old ladies and mothers in my building so much that they now gather inside on the building steps rather than sitting on the stoop. The old ladies have lived here for 50 years and don't feel safe on their own front stoop, and complain often about the fireworks and boomy car stereos.
None of that justifies unleashing the violent arm of the state on one's neighbors, but the problems aren't minor and not solvable with conversation.
posted by eustacescrubb at 10:53 PM on June 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
"Do they have to ever show up, if the situation is clear? "
The danger in that is that Joe Busybody starts calling and saying "There are some men acting suspiciously outside my apartment, one of them is holding an object that looks like a switchblade" instead of "some dudes are playing checkers."
I think the alternative is probably to institute a fine for frivolous calls after the first 100 or so in one year. When it comes to these sorts of complaints, you've got a a large number of people who call once or twice for things that may not be police matters; a handful of people who might call 25 times in a year for trivial issues, who probably need to be connected to social services; and then one or two people who will call literally a thousand times in a year and clog up the entire system and turn the police (/code enforcement/FOIA/whatever) into their personal weapon of harassment.
A lot of cities had these kinds of laws in the past, but they fell out of favor because they tended to penalize DV victims who called the police a lot on their abuser, and they had criminal penalties attached. But the number was WAY too low; a lot of them specify "12 calls in 3 months" and don't differentiate between real calls and trivial calls. So first you make it a civil fine, not a criminal matter; second, you increase the threshold to a HUGE number that catches your top dozen problem people; third, you specify nuisance calls and exclude calls that turn out to actually need police.
It's a real problem, though, people who weaponize public access laws to harass people or institutions they dislike. (I watched a guy who was pissed about how city council voted on something start calling in hundreds of code enforcement complaints about the city councilpeople's properties who voted in the way that made him angry. Not only is it harassment, but it was an enormous waste of money for the city.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:13 PM on June 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
The danger in that is that Joe Busybody starts calling and saying "There are some men acting suspiciously outside my apartment, one of them is holding an object that looks like a switchblade" instead of "some dudes are playing checkers."
I think the alternative is probably to institute a fine for frivolous calls after the first 100 or so in one year. When it comes to these sorts of complaints, you've got a a large number of people who call once or twice for things that may not be police matters; a handful of people who might call 25 times in a year for trivial issues, who probably need to be connected to social services; and then one or two people who will call literally a thousand times in a year and clog up the entire system and turn the police (/code enforcement/FOIA/whatever) into their personal weapon of harassment.
A lot of cities had these kinds of laws in the past, but they fell out of favor because they tended to penalize DV victims who called the police a lot on their abuser, and they had criminal penalties attached. But the number was WAY too low; a lot of them specify "12 calls in 3 months" and don't differentiate between real calls and trivial calls. So first you make it a civil fine, not a criminal matter; second, you increase the threshold to a HUGE number that catches your top dozen problem people; third, you specify nuisance calls and exclude calls that turn out to actually need police.
It's a real problem, though, people who weaponize public access laws to harass people or institutions they dislike. (I watched a guy who was pissed about how city council voted on something start calling in hundreds of code enforcement complaints about the city councilpeople's properties who voted in the way that made him angry. Not only is it harassment, but it was an enormous waste of money for the city.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:13 PM on June 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
Lighter story. When I moved to my current apartment, I used to sleep with my window cracked, and I would hear a woman moaning, like in great pain. There was also a smoke detector in one of the units with a dying battery that would beep all the time. It was odd, but I swore both sounds seem to move. Like, sometimes they would sound like they were right by my window, and other times further away. It was so disturbing, particularly the woman moaning, that I used to get up out of bed in the middle of the night and wander around my neighborhood trying to find the source of the noises. I never could. I finally called building management. They said they would try to deal with it, but they didn’t. Weeks went by with no change. Finally, as I was hunting through my building area again, I asked my neighbor who was in her yard if she knew which unit the smoke detector sound was coming from. She blushed and stammered that she was so sorry, but she had a rescue parrot who imitated the noises in the building he had been abandoned in.
As I walked away, I had another thought. “Does your bird also imitate a woman in pain?”
“Oh, no!” She said! “That’s one of the wild birds around here! You know, like that Telegraph Hill movie.”
So my worst neighbors are all birds.
Also, I have called 911 on a domestic abuse sitch and I will do that again. It sucks, knowing that they’re people of color, and I fucking hate calling the cops on POC. I worry that some asshole police officer will shoot first and pay no consequences later. But I won’t risk someone being beaten or possibly killed by their partner, either.
posted by greermahoney at 11:15 PM on June 29, 2018 [34 favorites]
As I walked away, I had another thought. “Does your bird also imitate a woman in pain?”
“Oh, no!” She said! “That’s one of the wild birds around here! You know, like that Telegraph Hill movie.”
So my worst neighbors are all birds.
Also, I have called 911 on a domestic abuse sitch and I will do that again. It sucks, knowing that they’re people of color, and I fucking hate calling the cops on POC. I worry that some asshole police officer will shoot first and pay no consequences later. But I won’t risk someone being beaten or possibly killed by their partner, either.
posted by greermahoney at 11:15 PM on June 29, 2018 [34 favorites]
It's a real problem, though, people who weaponize public access laws to harass people or institutions they dislike. (I watched a guy who was pissed about how city council voted on something start calling in hundreds of code enforcement complaints about the city councilpeople's properties who voted in the way that made him angry. Not only is it harassment, but it was an enormous waste of money for the city.)
the brand new NYC position of THE NIGHT MAYOR (someone in charge of things that happen at night) has floated something like a reasonable limit on calls so like one person with a grudge can't overwhelm the system
(also I like writing THE NIGHT MAYOR)
posted by The Whelk at 11:45 PM on June 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
You always dreamed of living in Disneyland.
The you complain about the mouse problem.
posted by adept256 at 1:24 AM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
The you complain about the mouse problem.
posted by adept256 at 1:24 AM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Count me as another person whose neighbors also inexplicably set off fireworks year round. It’s Canada Day weekend here so I expect a personal fireworks show in my ‘hood.
posted by Kitteh at 2:16 AM on June 30, 2018
posted by Kitteh at 2:16 AM on June 30, 2018
I did file a 311 complaint against the landlord next door last year because he never has anyone shovel or salt in the winter and the neighborhood is full of seniors. It's a ten unit building and he collects at least a thousand dollars for each one so he can afford to hire someone to shovel the whole thirty feet of frontage. I did try emailing him before but never got a response. The city took a week to investigate by which time all the snow had melted so they closed the ticket.
posted by octothorpe at 5:22 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 5:22 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
where does everyone think newcomers to a nieghborhood come from? Typically they've been pushed there by the same forces outside their control that create gentrification in the first place; they are not the cause of it, but fellow victims.
I mean, this may be true in the rather special context of NYC (and I get that the article linked is about NYC), but this is very much not the case in many (most?) other US cities. Mostly gentrification happens because people who have the financial wherewithal to live LOTS of places in or near the city decide to move into a neighborhood because it's "cool" and/or a good bargain (often because of government-sponsored incentives - over the last 15 years Cleveland has seen a boom of freshly-built condos & townhouses with 10, 15, or even 20-year tax abatements.) They're not "pushed" to be anywhere, and they're not victims.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:23 AM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I mean, this may be true in the rather special context of NYC (and I get that the article linked is about NYC), but this is very much not the case in many (most?) other US cities. Mostly gentrification happens because people who have the financial wherewithal to live LOTS of places in or near the city decide to move into a neighborhood because it's "cool" and/or a good bargain (often because of government-sponsored incentives - over the last 15 years Cleveland has seen a boom of freshly-built condos & townhouses with 10, 15, or even 20-year tax abatements.) They're not "pushed" to be anywhere, and they're not victims.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:23 AM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
When a neighborhood gets gentrified, the new people moving in just fucking take over. I'm watching that happen right now where I live. I'm white, have lived hear for 18 years and I've had the cops at my door 3 times this year. Why? I was sitting on my front step, I came home at 3 in the morning, I had company over with funny accents(they were Scots). Being Gay doesn't help matters, at least with a couple of outspoken catholic sons of bitches.
This could turn into a MeFi novelette, but I'm ending it here. I'm very angry and I'm not sure why. Gentrification sucks.
posted by james33 at 6:24 AM on June 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
This could turn into a MeFi novelette, but I'm ending it here. I'm very angry and I'm not sure why. Gentrification sucks.
posted by james33 at 6:24 AM on June 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
I live in a neighborhood that was all white poor 50 years ago. Then 30 years ago, it became all poor mixed population. When I moved in 20 years ago, I was one of the first of a tide of gentrification. Not by my own design, but because it was the only thing I could find after a terrible divorce (OK, I was probably not really a gentrifier, since I was dirt poor, but I was an academic with the prospect of finding a good job etc.) Regardless, today it has a national reputation of being a ghetto, whatever that is.
Anyway, my neighbors leaned in taking care of my daughter who was three at the time, and they were kind of the rocks of our community, the poorest block in the entire city according to the census. And they taught me a thing: if someone was making trouble, what we do is we talk to them. It's been that way always in our block, and it should be that way. My neighbors never cared about color, race or religion, but they did care if people were discriminatory, and acted when people made bad choices. We stuck together.
My neighbor said:
Young people having fun: goddammit, weren't you ever young? Here it is OK for the young to party.
Garbage in the yard: you need to learn to put the garbage in the containers.
Gangsters scaring ladies and kids: hoodlums, move to the other side of the street.
So when something happens I act. One thing I think applies is that it is easier to speak out as a middle aged lady whose daughter went to school with the hoodlums. I'm not a stranger and I'm not a young man who could engage in a fight. I'm tiny-mumi's mum, and they've been at parties in my home.
I have called the police once. One day the gangsters on the street came running up to my apartment to say someone from outside had stolen my cargo bike. They were afraid to stop them because they seemed armed with knives (even hoodlums don't have guns here). My then-boyfriend ran down to see the thieves race away, and I called the police saying exactly where they had gone. They told me they didn't have the time. Since them it has seemed more relevant to deal with reality where it happens.
posted by mumimor at 6:52 AM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Anyway, my neighbors leaned in taking care of my daughter who was three at the time, and they were kind of the rocks of our community, the poorest block in the entire city according to the census. And they taught me a thing: if someone was making trouble, what we do is we talk to them. It's been that way always in our block, and it should be that way. My neighbors never cared about color, race or religion, but they did care if people were discriminatory, and acted when people made bad choices. We stuck together.
My neighbor said:
Young people having fun: goddammit, weren't you ever young? Here it is OK for the young to party.
Garbage in the yard: you need to learn to put the garbage in the containers.
Gangsters scaring ladies and kids: hoodlums, move to the other side of the street.
So when something happens I act. One thing I think applies is that it is easier to speak out as a middle aged lady whose daughter went to school with the hoodlums. I'm not a stranger and I'm not a young man who could engage in a fight. I'm tiny-mumi's mum, and they've been at parties in my home.
I have called the police once. One day the gangsters on the street came running up to my apartment to say someone from outside had stolen my cargo bike. They were afraid to stop them because they seemed armed with knives (even hoodlums don't have guns here). My then-boyfriend ran down to see the thieves race away, and I called the police saying exactly where they had gone. They told me they didn't have the time. Since them it has seemed more relevant to deal with reality where it happens.
posted by mumimor at 6:52 AM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
I ran across this zine the other day and thought it would be great to distribute liberally around the city: 12 things to do instead of calling the cops.
posted by hishtafel at 6:57 AM on June 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by hishtafel at 6:57 AM on June 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh, I forgot, I have a completely different opinion on calling the police too. My mother lives in a posh area. She is old, and till recently combined her alcoholism with prescription drugs. Then she set on a fire in her kitchen and the fire-engine and the police came. They reported her to the social system, and I was called to help get her straight. This has lead to a complete transformation of her life. It's been great in every way. She did set her kitchen on fire once more, and her neighbor called me instead of the police and I told her that was a mistake. Not because I don't want to take responsibility, but because my mother doesn't listen to me. She does listen to police officers at her door, and then calls me for help. At this point, my mum is better than ever.
posted by mumimor at 7:02 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 7:02 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
but this is very much not the case in many (most?) other US cities. Mostly gentrification happens because people who have the financial wherewithal to live LOTS of places in or near the city decide to move into a neighborhood because it's "cool" and/or a good bargain
Yeah my experience is pretty limited to NYC - I don't think I've ever been able to decide where to live because the place is "cool." By the time it gets "cool" I'm priced out of it. Almost everyone I know who lives here is in a similar situation.
posted by eustacescrubb at 7:05 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah my experience is pretty limited to NYC - I don't think I've ever been able to decide where to live because the place is "cool." By the time it gets "cool" I'm priced out of it. Almost everyone I know who lives here is in a similar situation.
posted by eustacescrubb at 7:05 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Mostly gentrification happens because people who have the financial wherewithal to live LOTS of places in or near the city decide to move into a neighborhood because it's "cool" and/or a good bargain...They're not "pushed" to be anywhere, and they're not victims.
Do you have any kind of citation for this? I tried looking for statistics on fraction of income spent on housing in different locations and found this. At least during the 2010 census, New York was pretty low on the list by median % of income spent on housing and by % of households spending more than the recommended 30%. (Low being a relative term: half of NYC households spent more than 30%.)
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 8:09 AM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Do you have any kind of citation for this? I tried looking for statistics on fraction of income spent on housing in different locations and found this. At least during the 2010 census, New York was pretty low on the list by median % of income spent on housing and by % of households spending more than the recommended 30%. (Low being a relative term: half of NYC households spent more than 30%.)
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 8:09 AM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
And this kind of stuff makes cities great to live in—I remember moving my boyfriend into a new apartment and we had to park the truck around the corner, and there were some dudes on the stoop we said hello to and after watching us move a couple of loads they were like “just move the truck right in front of the building and we’ll keep an eye on it for you” and we were like “this is great thanks” and everyone was happy.
People on the street make it more safe, not less.
posted by Automocar at 8:12 AM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
People on the street make it more safe, not less.
posted by Automocar at 8:12 AM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
I live right next to East High in Denver, in a now trendy neighborhood that had been sketchy when I moved in. I could afford it. Soon I will be moving out because, I can no longer afford it. One night a few years ago, I was going out to an event with some suburban friends and we all met at my place. While we were getting ready, some urban adventurer decided to climb to the top of East High, which is a very old school with a bell tower. Looked like fun to me. It's something that I always wanted to try. However, my suburban friends were shocked at this breach of etiquette, and had me call the cops, who responded in exactly the way good cops should and ignored the complaint. Still I really felt bad about calling the cops on some guy just out for a little adventure.
posted by evilDoug at 8:33 AM on June 30, 2018
posted by evilDoug at 8:33 AM on June 30, 2018
Do you have any kind of citation for this? I tried looking for statistics on fraction of income spent on housing in different locations and found this. At least during the 2010 census, New York was pretty low on the list by median % of income spent on housing and by % of households spending more than the recommended 30%. (Low being a relative term: half of NYC households spent more than 30%.)
I'm not clear on what kind of citation you're looking for, and I don't think that % of income spent on housing studied city-wide will really tell you much about gentrification. Gentrification mostly occurs at a neighborhood level, and is as much a social/cultural phenomenon as economic. As per this multi-year analysis of Cleveland (also from Governing magazine), what planners & social scientists tend to look for when analyzing and discussing gentrification are things like rises in median home prices, rises in median income, percentage of residents with bachelor's degrees or better.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:41 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm not clear on what kind of citation you're looking for, and I don't think that % of income spent on housing studied city-wide will really tell you much about gentrification. Gentrification mostly occurs at a neighborhood level, and is as much a social/cultural phenomenon as economic. As per this multi-year analysis of Cleveland (also from Governing magazine), what planners & social scientists tend to look for when analyzing and discussing gentrification are things like rises in median home prices, rises in median income, percentage of residents with bachelor's degrees or better.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:41 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I am a native New Yorker who handles a rare 4 a.m. noise complaint one of two ways: banging on a wall three times, or leaning out a window and shouting a request for someone to keep it the fuck down or move it inside. Both work like a charm.
That said, I am a white woman, and I think it is important to recognize that I, like most people, have a terrible, seething Permit Patty inside of me. And I need to keep on top of her. I live at a dangerous intersection. Every day, when I need to cross the street, I have three choices: walk to a safer crossing, even though I am probably running late; get pissed off at the person who inevitably whips their vehicle into the crosswalk and nearly hits me; or cross there but keep on top of my emotions and not get pissy because of a thing that I know was bound to happen. I go wih Answer B a lot, and I need to stop. Answer A keeps me safe. Answer C keeps me from looking like a holy fucking terror in front of my neighbors and the road crews working on my block. Answer B leaves me feeling shitty and acting like an asshole, while doing nothing to solve the problem.
In short, we might not be able to change the actual Permit Patties of the world, but we can, at least, change ourselves.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 8:49 AM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
That said, I am a white woman, and I think it is important to recognize that I, like most people, have a terrible, seething Permit Patty inside of me. And I need to keep on top of her. I live at a dangerous intersection. Every day, when I need to cross the street, I have three choices: walk to a safer crossing, even though I am probably running late; get pissed off at the person who inevitably whips their vehicle into the crosswalk and nearly hits me; or cross there but keep on top of my emotions and not get pissy because of a thing that I know was bound to happen. I go wih Answer B a lot, and I need to stop. Answer A keeps me safe. Answer C keeps me from looking like a holy fucking terror in front of my neighbors and the road crews working on my block. Answer B leaves me feeling shitty and acting like an asshole, while doing nothing to solve the problem.
In short, we might not be able to change the actual Permit Patties of the world, but we can, at least, change ourselves.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 8:49 AM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't think getting mad at people driving dangerously makes you a Permit Patty, at all.
posted by Automocar at 8:52 AM on June 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Automocar at 8:52 AM on June 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
In terms of doing a thing instead of calling the cops: the other night, I entered a subway station at 1:30 a.m., and encountered two guys on the ground in the middle of a fistfight, with one guy kind of wailing on the other. The place was empty otherwise. It was just the three of us. The guy who was swinging didn't appear to be causing grievous harm, but he was definitely punching the other dude a bunch. I froze. I was not going to call the cops, but as a short and smallish woman, I was not prepared to jump into the middle of things, either. I think the right, and less cowardly answer, was probably to shout something, and thereby distract or startle the guy throwing punches, but I have no idea. It all ended maybe a minute later, with the puncher running off, but I wish I hadn't been too chickenshit to intervene.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 8:58 AM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by evidenceofabsence at 8:58 AM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm not clear on what kind of citation you're looking for
Something to support the claim that the reasons people move into a new neighborhood are because the neighborhood is "cool" or "a bargain" and something to support the claim that people who move to new neighborhoods in cities that aren't NYC can afford to live "LOTS" of places.
posted by eustacescrubb at 9:18 AM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Something to support the claim that the reasons people move into a new neighborhood are because the neighborhood is "cool" or "a bargain" and something to support the claim that people who move to new neighborhoods in cities that aren't NYC can afford to live "LOTS" of places.
posted by eustacescrubb at 9:18 AM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
The thing that makes me like Permit Patty is the lashing out because of impotent rage. Woman could have put in earplugs or closed her windows or gone somewhere else or asked nicely, instead of threatening to get people with guns to chase after an 8-year-old. But the truth is that she wasn't trying to solve the problem. She was being shitty and reactive and dangerous.
No matter the situation, it's about trying to keep cool, and be constructive, and aware of power structures and possible outcomes, and not just lash out for the sake of venting.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 9:35 AM on June 30, 2018
No matter the situation, it's about trying to keep cool, and be constructive, and aware of power structures and possible outcomes, and not just lash out for the sake of venting.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 9:35 AM on June 30, 2018
Permit Patty ... lashing out because of impotent rage
I think that, while this is a real thing, we might want to consider gender stereotyping? In the past, women were more likely to actually have no power, and sometimes they still do, so yeah, they'll do the only thing they think they can. However, it's often dudes who do this, too.
For example, the perpetrator in the Finley Forest tragedy some years ago (it's on Wikipedia, it was really really awful) repeatedly called the HOA office with parking complaints. Also, many of the people referenced here as making repeated complaints are male.
It's entirely possible that men are more likely (but not always) to be the ones who don't think of solutions other than bring the law.
posted by amtho at 9:50 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think that, while this is a real thing, we might want to consider gender stereotyping? In the past, women were more likely to actually have no power, and sometimes they still do, so yeah, they'll do the only thing they think they can. However, it's often dudes who do this, too.
For example, the perpetrator in the Finley Forest tragedy some years ago (it's on Wikipedia, it was really really awful) repeatedly called the HOA office with parking complaints. Also, many of the people referenced here as making repeated complaints are male.
It's entirely possible that men are more likely (but not always) to be the ones who don't think of solutions other than bring the law.
posted by amtho at 9:50 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
the people who are suggesting one just go outside at 2AM and have a friendly chat with, say, the owner of a car who has double-parked it and opened all his doors and windows and trunk to reveal the subwoofer that literally takes up the entire trunk so he can blast his music or people who think setting off professional grade fireworks whose explosions you can feel in your chest have a very lopsided idea of neighborliness.
The thing is - if you grew up in the neighborhood, it’s not always even a thing to you. I grew up near the projects and these things all happened, and I just...like slept through it, because that’s how I grew up. Because there were always 2am subwoofers, because people didn’t get off work until late and still wanted to party, and July 4 there were always crazy illegal fireworks. I remember my mom, who didn’t grow up that way, was always super annoyed and worried it would keep me up, but I always thought it was weird because I just went to sleep anyway. People accustom themselves to their environment no matter what their environment is like.
But like, when I moved with my husband (grew up rural/suburban) back to a quieter area of NYC, he couldn’t sleep for years and we eventually had to move in part because he couldn’t adjust to all the noise. And like - it wasn’t his fault for having grown up quieter, but also, it would have been weird for him to have tried to stop all noise in our neighborhood just because he was used to a quieter neighborhood. Just like now we live in a quiet neighborhood and I know I can’t have raucous backyard parties until all hours because no one else does.
posted by corb at 10:08 AM on June 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
The thing is - if you grew up in the neighborhood, it’s not always even a thing to you. I grew up near the projects and these things all happened, and I just...like slept through it, because that’s how I grew up. Because there were always 2am subwoofers, because people didn’t get off work until late and still wanted to party, and July 4 there were always crazy illegal fireworks. I remember my mom, who didn’t grow up that way, was always super annoyed and worried it would keep me up, but I always thought it was weird because I just went to sleep anyway. People accustom themselves to their environment no matter what their environment is like.
But like, when I moved with my husband (grew up rural/suburban) back to a quieter area of NYC, he couldn’t sleep for years and we eventually had to move in part because he couldn’t adjust to all the noise. And like - it wasn’t his fault for having grown up quieter, but also, it would have been weird for him to have tried to stop all noise in our neighborhood just because he was used to a quieter neighborhood. Just like now we live in a quiet neighborhood and I know I can’t have raucous backyard parties until all hours because no one else does.
posted by corb at 10:08 AM on June 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm not clear on what kind of citation you're looking for, and I don't think that % of income spent on housing studied city-wide will really tell you much about gentrification.
This is not my field, so I'm happy to take methodological criticism, but here's it sounded like your claim was that NYC is unusual in that people in many income brackets were being priced out of their preferred neighborhoods, whereas in other places people were moving into neighborhoods that were cheaper than they could afford to pay.
I'd expect that if you were priced out of your desired neighborhood, you wouldn't go very far down the price scale. You might even stay a bit above what you "should" pay, because you're used to the various benefits of an expensive neighborhood. So if NYC is unusual in having lots of people are getting priced out of their neighborhoods, I'd expect NYC to be unusually high when cities are ranked by median % of income spent on housing, from all the priced-out people trying to hold on to a standard of living they can't really afford any more.
Does that make sense, as a proxy for the hypothesis we're trying to test?
I am, of course, happy to read the conclusions of people who have already studied this phenomenon, instead of trying to do half-baked primary research in an unfamiliar field on my weekends.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 10:27 AM on June 30, 2018
This is not my field, so I'm happy to take methodological criticism, but here's it sounded like your claim was that NYC is unusual in that people in many income brackets were being priced out of their preferred neighborhoods, whereas in other places people were moving into neighborhoods that were cheaper than they could afford to pay.
I'd expect that if you were priced out of your desired neighborhood, you wouldn't go very far down the price scale. You might even stay a bit above what you "should" pay, because you're used to the various benefits of an expensive neighborhood. So if NYC is unusual in having lots of people are getting priced out of their neighborhoods, I'd expect NYC to be unusually high when cities are ranked by median % of income spent on housing, from all the priced-out people trying to hold on to a standard of living they can't really afford any more.
Does that make sense, as a proxy for the hypothesis we're trying to test?
I am, of course, happy to read the conclusions of people who have already studied this phenomenon, instead of trying to do half-baked primary research in an unfamiliar field on my weekends.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 10:27 AM on June 30, 2018
Permit Patty seems to be an army brat whose father is originally from TX.
posted by brujita at 10:42 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 10:42 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
seconding: don't call the cops on your suicidal friends ever but especially in NYC oh my god
posted by colorblock sock at 11:35 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by colorblock sock at 11:35 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I personally wonder if the uptick in calls sometimes (obviously not in the Domino Nemesis's neighborhood) reflects less a decrease in tolerance and more of an increase in people who think their complaints will be listened to. Being annoyed at a loud party going on next door past midnight on a work night is not the sole province of ex-suburbanites.
I'm white and used to live in Cambridge, MA, just outside of Boston, followed by Harlem, NYC, then Portland, ME, and now the twin cities. My worst neighbors have absolutely been white people who feel that the cops are a customer service line, and who refuse to engage. Here are the things in this thread that made me think about my experiences.
In my city, some people who buy properties in gentrifying neighborhoods cheap and then flip them or work on them and raise the rent through the roof are generally believed to call in lots of bullshit complaints about properties they want to get. It's usually code complaints about peeling paint or whatever so that they can get fines assessed against the owner, who won't be able to pay. But I'd expect that just getting the police to harass residents would probably work, too, if someone is aiming to get those apartments (or to get the current tenants to move out).
When I lived in Cambridge, MA I visited a friend in Somerville who had a pricey condo in a pricey condo building full of white people. One of his neighbors was systematically calling the cops on another neighbor in their building because they didn't like them for some reason. They were essentially being forced to sell because they couldn't just go home and do normal things without the police showing up over and over and over. What was the issue? They just didn't like these other people and felt that using the cops to harass them into leaving was totally okay.
I've had two really bad neighbors. When I was in law school in Boston, our downstairs neighbor was a rich kid from Connecticut who at some point started abusing adderall and got really paranoid and angry about noise. She would come up and harass us about noise we weren't making, like "why are you watching this movie at top volume at 2am?" and wouldn't believe us when we said we were both asleep then, and hadn't ever seen Walk the Line. She also called the cops on us for having a party once, which 1) she could have come to, 2) didn't go super late, and 3) was the only time she ever didn't just come up and flip her shit at us. In retrospect, I don't know why she didn't call the cops more, she was totally that person. Being white ourselves may have protected us; I'm not sure I'd want to know how she'd have responded if we weren't white.
In other white people weirdness, our apartment had a balcony and Friday nights my friends would come over and we'd all sit outside and play games and drink and people who were not me would smoke and pretend they weren't making me breathe it and we'd shoot the shit and sometimes play music at a reasonable volume. The buildings all around us on the block also had balconies, and occasionally we'd see someone else outside doing their thing but we were definitely the ones who had a regular balcony use event. At some point, a letter went around to everyone on the block that didn't name us but went on and on about how it would be much easier to enjoy the space if it were quiet and "respectful". We tossed it out, because we felt we were enjoying the space just fine and not stopping anyone else from doing their own thing. That was as far as it went and we never knew who sent it, but again I have to wonder if this would have been different if we hadn't been white.
In Maine I lived in a cheap studio in a building where I could have easily bought crack. My neighbors were mostly nice people who also didn't make a ton of money, but occasionally the landlord, who was a real shit, would rent to someone who was trouble. In one instance, the apartment next to me got rented by neo-nazi crackheads. They liked partying all night, playing music so loud that I couldn't watch tv, having loud conversations about how much they hated gay people, and were generally terrifying. I have to say that I never called the cops because I was afraid of retaliation from them - if someone calls to complain about noise, they're probably sharing a wall with you and the less contact you have with neo-nazi crackheads, the better. I complained to management and after a while they moved out. I'm not sure what happened and ultimately all I care about was that I didn't have to have direct contact with them, ever.
When I lived in Harlem there was always some level of noise, but my building was quiet at night because people had to work in the morning and it was understood that you just didn't behave like that - do your thing, but keep it down to a dull roar.
I think I said this on another thread, but it would be great if cops could develop a policy where if they show up and it's obvious it's just a ridiculous complaint, they don't even talk to the people being complained about, which is inherently traumatic. Just get out of the car and go in a bodega and buy a soda, or whatever.
That would be nice. It would also be great if 911 tracked who was abusing the system and dealt with that. As it is, though - you just don't call the cops about trivial shit. Like someone said upthread, if the situation isn't going to be improved by fascists with guns who have poor judgment, you don't call them. I think the last time I called 911 was when I came home and found someone passed out in front of my apartment in Maine, he'd clearly fallen over while walking. I made clear to the dispatcher that this was a medical emergency and he needed an ambulance, and thankfully that's what they sent - I'm pretty sure it was an overdose. The time I found someone passed out before that was in a stairwell in my first Maine apartment, I found her passed out with her pants half down, shook her awake, and asked her if she wanted me to call anyone. She was definitely intoxicated, but she said she didn't need an ambulance so I didn't call one. I don't know what happened, but I was terrified of making the situation worse for her. I wish more people saw their neighbors as humans they share space with instead of as a problem to be solved.
posted by bile and syntax at 12:14 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm white and used to live in Cambridge, MA, just outside of Boston, followed by Harlem, NYC, then Portland, ME, and now the twin cities. My worst neighbors have absolutely been white people who feel that the cops are a customer service line, and who refuse to engage. Here are the things in this thread that made me think about my experiences.
In my city, some people who buy properties in gentrifying neighborhoods cheap and then flip them or work on them and raise the rent through the roof are generally believed to call in lots of bullshit complaints about properties they want to get. It's usually code complaints about peeling paint or whatever so that they can get fines assessed against the owner, who won't be able to pay. But I'd expect that just getting the police to harass residents would probably work, too, if someone is aiming to get those apartments (or to get the current tenants to move out).
When I lived in Cambridge, MA I visited a friend in Somerville who had a pricey condo in a pricey condo building full of white people. One of his neighbors was systematically calling the cops on another neighbor in their building because they didn't like them for some reason. They were essentially being forced to sell because they couldn't just go home and do normal things without the police showing up over and over and over. What was the issue? They just didn't like these other people and felt that using the cops to harass them into leaving was totally okay.
I've had two really bad neighbors. When I was in law school in Boston, our downstairs neighbor was a rich kid from Connecticut who at some point started abusing adderall and got really paranoid and angry about noise. She would come up and harass us about noise we weren't making, like "why are you watching this movie at top volume at 2am?" and wouldn't believe us when we said we were both asleep then, and hadn't ever seen Walk the Line. She also called the cops on us for having a party once, which 1) she could have come to, 2) didn't go super late, and 3) was the only time she ever didn't just come up and flip her shit at us. In retrospect, I don't know why she didn't call the cops more, she was totally that person. Being white ourselves may have protected us; I'm not sure I'd want to know how she'd have responded if we weren't white.
In other white people weirdness, our apartment had a balcony and Friday nights my friends would come over and we'd all sit outside and play games and drink and people who were not me would smoke and pretend they weren't making me breathe it and we'd shoot the shit and sometimes play music at a reasonable volume. The buildings all around us on the block also had balconies, and occasionally we'd see someone else outside doing their thing but we were definitely the ones who had a regular balcony use event. At some point, a letter went around to everyone on the block that didn't name us but went on and on about how it would be much easier to enjoy the space if it were quiet and "respectful". We tossed it out, because we felt we were enjoying the space just fine and not stopping anyone else from doing their own thing. That was as far as it went and we never knew who sent it, but again I have to wonder if this would have been different if we hadn't been white.
In Maine I lived in a cheap studio in a building where I could have easily bought crack. My neighbors were mostly nice people who also didn't make a ton of money, but occasionally the landlord, who was a real shit, would rent to someone who was trouble. In one instance, the apartment next to me got rented by neo-nazi crackheads. They liked partying all night, playing music so loud that I couldn't watch tv, having loud conversations about how much they hated gay people, and were generally terrifying. I have to say that I never called the cops because I was afraid of retaliation from them - if someone calls to complain about noise, they're probably sharing a wall with you and the less contact you have with neo-nazi crackheads, the better. I complained to management and after a while they moved out. I'm not sure what happened and ultimately all I care about was that I didn't have to have direct contact with them, ever.
When I lived in Harlem there was always some level of noise, but my building was quiet at night because people had to work in the morning and it was understood that you just didn't behave like that - do your thing, but keep it down to a dull roar.
I think I said this on another thread, but it would be great if cops could develop a policy where if they show up and it's obvious it's just a ridiculous complaint, they don't even talk to the people being complained about, which is inherently traumatic. Just get out of the car and go in a bodega and buy a soda, or whatever.
That would be nice. It would also be great if 911 tracked who was abusing the system and dealt with that. As it is, though - you just don't call the cops about trivial shit. Like someone said upthread, if the situation isn't going to be improved by fascists with guns who have poor judgment, you don't call them. I think the last time I called 911 was when I came home and found someone passed out in front of my apartment in Maine, he'd clearly fallen over while walking. I made clear to the dispatcher that this was a medical emergency and he needed an ambulance, and thankfully that's what they sent - I'm pretty sure it was an overdose. The time I found someone passed out before that was in a stairwell in my first Maine apartment, I found her passed out with her pants half down, shook her awake, and asked her if she wanted me to call anyone. She was definitely intoxicated, but she said she didn't need an ambulance so I didn't call one. I don't know what happened, but I was terrified of making the situation worse for her. I wish more people saw their neighbors as humans they share space with instead of as a problem to be solved.
posted by bile and syntax at 12:14 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
re: noise ordinances and moving into neighbourhoods with clubs. Recently during a tidy-up, going thru DVDs, making the small gotta-keep pile, I came across “High Fidelity”. If you don’t know it, John Cusack adapted a Nick Hornsby book, about an owner of a failing record shop (now in Chicago) and learning to love + adult.
Watching it now is like watching a historical document : it’s filled with places that actually no longer have a place, don’t even exist in Chicago now. Lounge Ax, for example, was in the heart of Lincoln Park, north of intersection of Fullerton & Lincoln Avenue. The women who owned the joint created a loud, ferocious venue and with Miller as booker, she never did wrong. then ... the neighbourhood got super tony because of new nearby high rise ... and you know where this story goes.
Lounge Ax closed in January 2000. I scrubbed back and forth during the exterior shots, squinting and remembering, sad for all that’s been lost. It went into the keep pile.
posted by lemon_icing at 12:19 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Watching it now is like watching a historical document : it’s filled with places that actually no longer have a place, don’t even exist in Chicago now. Lounge Ax, for example, was in the heart of Lincoln Park, north of intersection of Fullerton & Lincoln Avenue. The women who owned the joint created a loud, ferocious venue and with Miller as booker, she never did wrong. then ... the neighbourhood got super tony because of new nearby high rise ... and you know where this story goes.
Lounge Ax closed in January 2000. I scrubbed back and forth during the exterior shots, squinting and remembering, sad for all that’s been lost. It went into the keep pile.
posted by lemon_icing at 12:19 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
BlueHorse : Around here, the assholes are the ones that move here for the "rural" life. Then they bitch about crowing roosters, smell from the cows, somebody's goat getting loose, farmers running the baler at night*, and the kids that rode down the road and their horses crapped.
OMG, This. Our neighborhood got incorporated into the town, and now we can't have chickens or goats. (Note, I do not want goats, but I liked being able to buy goat products from neighbors, and have herd of goats come clear out poison ivy because apparently it's like pesto to a goat.) Most of the old ranches are now acres and acres of zero-lot mcmansions, and they do not want to hear roosters or goats apparently.
greermahoney :So my worst neighbors are all birds.
My hand to god, the first time I heard a peacock scream, I leapt for a phone, convinced someone was being horribly murdered.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:11 PM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
OMG, This. Our neighborhood got incorporated into the town, and now we can't have chickens or goats. (Note, I do not want goats, but I liked being able to buy goat products from neighbors, and have herd of goats come clear out poison ivy because apparently it's like pesto to a goat.) Most of the old ranches are now acres and acres of zero-lot mcmansions, and they do not want to hear roosters or goats apparently.
greermahoney :So my worst neighbors are all birds.
My hand to god, the first time I heard a peacock scream, I leapt for a phone, convinced someone was being horribly murdered.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:11 PM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
The guy at the police station needs to get the balls to answer every-single-call about someone playing dominos
Hm. I think most police departments are obliged to treat calls as serious (although they will of course prioritize some calls above others). There used to be a friend of the family, long dead of a heart attack now, who spent his career as a cop in a medium-sized city. He was the stereotypical mid-to-late twentieth century cop — white, beefy, racist, conservative. At one point he was on desk duty – the aforementioned beefiness may well have been a factor here as by the time I knew him thirty years ago, he was in no shape to chase down a fleeing bad guy.
His job at some point on the seventies and maybe early eighties was answering incoming calls to 911. He told me nonchalantly that he often hung up on callers if they had what he felt to be a foreign accent. People who sounded white got the police to respond, in other words.
I dunno how many preventable robberies, domestic violence cases, and murders were on him when he died, but I suspect that he and others like him is why 911 calls are treated the way they are.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:55 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hm. I think most police departments are obliged to treat calls as serious (although they will of course prioritize some calls above others). There used to be a friend of the family, long dead of a heart attack now, who spent his career as a cop in a medium-sized city. He was the stereotypical mid-to-late twentieth century cop — white, beefy, racist, conservative. At one point he was on desk duty – the aforementioned beefiness may well have been a factor here as by the time I knew him thirty years ago, he was in no shape to chase down a fleeing bad guy.
His job at some point on the seventies and maybe early eighties was answering incoming calls to 911. He told me nonchalantly that he often hung up on callers if they had what he felt to be a foreign accent. People who sounded white got the police to respond, in other words.
I dunno how many preventable robberies, domestic violence cases, and murders were on him when he died, but I suspect that he and others like him is why 911 calls are treated the way they are.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:55 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
In my fantasy Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism future, there would be a 311-type number you could call for friendly, helpful, non-police intermediation with other people.
I really admire Eyebrows McGee for the ability to approach people in a friendly yet firm way and ask them to change their behavior, but it can be a legitimate worry that someone will become violent or turn out to be the sort of person who holds a grudge and has time on their hands. I mean, it doesn't seem like it would work to approach the one guy who's calling in all the complaints and say "hey, this is no fun for the rest of us, could you please knock it off?"
I went through a period of asking people with off-leash dogs in leash-required areas to please leash their dogs, and it basically never worked and often got me really nasty responses.
I think people who have concerns about approaching someone directly could nevertheless get on board with a 311 Friendly Helpful City Employees Department thing, where you don't call the cops, but you maybe have team of people who can come out in pairs and talk to the people with off-leash dogs and let them know in a friendly way what the rules are, and talk to the people letting off fireworks at 2 am and let them know they're waking the neighbors, and talk to the people chilling out playing dominoes and go "hey, everything cool here? cool" and then go talk to the person calling in the complaint and saying "hey, actually, there's not any rule against playing dominoes, so no need to call it in next time, okay?"
What the 311 Friendly Helpful City Employees would do about the terrifying noisy birds, I do not know. Probably feed them.
posted by kristi at 1:55 PM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
I really admire Eyebrows McGee for the ability to approach people in a friendly yet firm way and ask them to change their behavior, but it can be a legitimate worry that someone will become violent or turn out to be the sort of person who holds a grudge and has time on their hands. I mean, it doesn't seem like it would work to approach the one guy who's calling in all the complaints and say "hey, this is no fun for the rest of us, could you please knock it off?"
I went through a period of asking people with off-leash dogs in leash-required areas to please leash their dogs, and it basically never worked and often got me really nasty responses.
I think people who have concerns about approaching someone directly could nevertheless get on board with a 311 Friendly Helpful City Employees Department thing, where you don't call the cops, but you maybe have team of people who can come out in pairs and talk to the people with off-leash dogs and let them know in a friendly way what the rules are, and talk to the people letting off fireworks at 2 am and let them know they're waking the neighbors, and talk to the people chilling out playing dominoes and go "hey, everything cool here? cool" and then go talk to the person calling in the complaint and saying "hey, actually, there's not any rule against playing dominoes, so no need to call it in next time, okay?"
What the 311 Friendly Helpful City Employees would do about the terrifying noisy birds, I do not know. Probably feed them.
posted by kristi at 1:55 PM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
There are assholes in the suburbs...
A white woman called police on a black 12-year-old who was mowing grass
posted by BlueHorse at 2:09 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
A white woman called police on a black 12-year-old who was mowing grass
posted by BlueHorse at 2:09 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
> He told me nonchalantly that he often hung up on callers if they had what he felt to be a foreign accent.
According to the US Justice Department under Obama, this was an issue in New Orleans within the past decade. New Orleans has always had one of the country's biggest Honduran communities thanks to its historic role as a produce import port, but those numbers went up after Katrina thanks to the need for labor and violence in Honduras.
Anyway, 911 operators would allegedly either hang up on Spanish speakers they couldn't understand or sometimes dispatch a cop who, not understanding the situation, would simply arrest everyone on the scene.
posted by smelendez at 2:43 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
According to the US Justice Department under Obama, this was an issue in New Orleans within the past decade. New Orleans has always had one of the country's biggest Honduran communities thanks to its historic role as a produce import port, but those numbers went up after Katrina thanks to the need for labor and violence in Honduras.
Anyway, 911 operators would allegedly either hang up on Spanish speakers they couldn't understand or sometimes dispatch a cop who, not understanding the situation, would simply arrest everyone on the scene.
posted by smelendez at 2:43 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
The thing that Permit Patty could have done if she genuinely felt that a kid running a water stand/lemonade stand was a problem is not harass that individual child that individual time, but she could have approached the city council about the scourge of children's lemonade stands (and gotten laughed out of the chambers). My suburb right now is having people stake out 4th of July parade spots before it is even July because the world has gone mad, and while it is tempting to go all vigilante justice on them or to call in trespassing complaints, obviously the better way to deal with it would be to approach the town council with concerns that this is unsafe, unsightly, disrespectful to neighbors, and really friggin' annoying and antisocial (if you're not willing to disrespectfully put your shit on someone else's property in JUNE, oh well, guess you don't get to see the parade!), and see if there is community will to limit how long in advance you can put out "dibs" stuff, or even outlaw it, in future years, with a robust community notification campaign leading up to it.
(I don't actually care enough to complain about it, but if someone else does and they do a community survey to assess community preferences about it, I'm definitely filling that shit out.)
Some of these things are problems that are going to happen regardless (noisy parties are part of life), but if you have real concerns that guys playing checkers or kids selling lemonade or people having a barbecue are dangerous/problematic in some fashion, you can approach the city for a conversation about that instead of harassing that one individual! And have a conversation that considers the needs of the community as a whole! And maybe your pet peeve should in fact be outlawed! But more likely there either needs to be some kind of education campaign to reduce a relatively benign problem behavior, or an adjustment of community interactions/relations, or you need the modest public shaming you're going to get for bringing up something incredibly friggin' stupid.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:18 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
(I don't actually care enough to complain about it, but if someone else does and they do a community survey to assess community preferences about it, I'm definitely filling that shit out.)
Some of these things are problems that are going to happen regardless (noisy parties are part of life), but if you have real concerns that guys playing checkers or kids selling lemonade or people having a barbecue are dangerous/problematic in some fashion, you can approach the city for a conversation about that instead of harassing that one individual! And have a conversation that considers the needs of the community as a whole! And maybe your pet peeve should in fact be outlawed! But more likely there either needs to be some kind of education campaign to reduce a relatively benign problem behavior, or an adjustment of community interactions/relations, or you need the modest public shaming you're going to get for bringing up something incredibly friggin' stupid.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:18 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
The thing is - if you grew up in the neighborhood, it’s not always even a thing to you.
The impression I get from the people in my building who have lived here for decades is that none of them like the fireworks (which happen from about April to October) or the loud stereos but gave up long ago trying to ask nicely. A trio of older ladies tell stories about trying to out-blast them with their own stereo. Interestingly all the long-time residents who don't like the noise are women and the noise-makers are almost always men. Often the men are drunk. So there's a historical power differential at play. Nobody calls the cops but not calling the cops doesn't mean they like it. Mostly, they're resigned.
This is all ultra specific to my street and building, of course. But I'm not sure it's a safe assumption that because a neighborhood has reached a status quo that everyone who's lived there for a long time or even a majority like that status quo.
posted by eustacescrubb at 3:38 PM on June 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
The impression I get from the people in my building who have lived here for decades is that none of them like the fireworks (which happen from about April to October) or the loud stereos but gave up long ago trying to ask nicely. A trio of older ladies tell stories about trying to out-blast them with their own stereo. Interestingly all the long-time residents who don't like the noise are women and the noise-makers are almost always men. Often the men are drunk. So there's a historical power differential at play. Nobody calls the cops but not calling the cops doesn't mean they like it. Mostly, they're resigned.
This is all ultra specific to my street and building, of course. But I'm not sure it's a safe assumption that because a neighborhood has reached a status quo that everyone who's lived there for a long time or even a majority like that status quo.
posted by eustacescrubb at 3:38 PM on June 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
> I, like most people, have a terrible, seething Permit Patty inside of me
I've always thought of it as my inner Soviet bureaucrat. The rules will be enforced because they are the rules.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:54 PM on June 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
I've always thought of it as my inner Soviet bureaucrat. The rules will be enforced because they are the rules.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:54 PM on June 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
Why White People Called The Police This Week (New Yorker).
posted by Paul Slade at 1:02 AM on July 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 1:02 AM on July 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
One thing I've seen a bunch of lately is people telling their neighbors to call the police/report to city non-emergency services about literally everything, not because they expect a response, but because governments have gone all in on using data to prioritize their efforts, so complaining all the time turns your neighborhood into a hotspot that gets more attention. Around here, the desired attention usually involves the city forcing homeless people to relocate a few blocks over, where the cycle continues.
But it speaks to a broader issue of the limits of using data for everything: one person is enough to skew the stats. Calling the airport thousands of times won't somehow get it shut down, but reporting everything to 311 thousands of times will get your block colored red on all the fancy maps city officials use.
posted by zachlipton at 1:12 AM on July 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
But it speaks to a broader issue of the limits of using data for everything: one person is enough to skew the stats. Calling the airport thousands of times won't somehow get it shut down, but reporting everything to 311 thousands of times will get your block colored red on all the fancy maps city officials use.
posted by zachlipton at 1:12 AM on July 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Even a decade ago, my friends and I thought about calling the cops with fake muggings & invented light burglaries to skew the crime stats and keep the gentrifiers at bay. Never did it, but definitely thought about it. Perhaps it would have slowed the tide. One of the problems though is that in many if not most cities there is no alternative to 911 and 911 always, always sends the cops even if you are asking for firefighters or an ambulance. As someone said upthread, 311 just patches back in to 911. I tried to call the mental health crisis line here once for someone who was having a full on psychotic break in his front yard and no matter how hard I tried to explain what was going on, they patched it through to 911 and sent a cop - who was unfriendly, untrained in anything mental health related and generally unpleasant. It could have gone worse, I know.
In the late 80s I lived in the east village in NYC in what was then a straight up walk through drug market block. It made me feel safe, for the most part - there were always people on the street and nobody ever called the cops, for obvious reasons. So one night when somebody was trying to get into my building by beating the door in with a crowbar or something, I looked up the precinct number and called them. They were sort of shocked. “Someone’s beating the door in? Why didn’t you call 911?” And I was like, well, it’s a solid door, and they’re not through yet, and then they’d have to beat in another door to get to anybody, so it’s not an Emergency yet and I wouldn’t want to bother anyone.
On the flip side of nuisance callers, the previous owner of my house - who, fwiw, was black and elderly - was one. She had a crusade: she sat in the front window and called the cops on every speeder who went by, which was pretty much every car on this stupidly busy street. Thus it was originally thanks to her that we got put on the map for speed bumps, although it took years after she left and I moved in and adopted her crusade if not her methods that we got them.
posted by mygothlaundry at 3:56 AM on July 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
In the late 80s I lived in the east village in NYC in what was then a straight up walk through drug market block. It made me feel safe, for the most part - there were always people on the street and nobody ever called the cops, for obvious reasons. So one night when somebody was trying to get into my building by beating the door in with a crowbar or something, I looked up the precinct number and called them. They were sort of shocked. “Someone’s beating the door in? Why didn’t you call 911?” And I was like, well, it’s a solid door, and they’re not through yet, and then they’d have to beat in another door to get to anybody, so it’s not an Emergency yet and I wouldn’t want to bother anyone.
On the flip side of nuisance callers, the previous owner of my house - who, fwiw, was black and elderly - was one. She had a crusade: she sat in the front window and called the cops on every speeder who went by, which was pretty much every car on this stupidly busy street. Thus it was originally thanks to her that we got put on the map for speed bumps, although it took years after she left and I moved in and adopted her crusade if not her methods that we got them.
posted by mygothlaundry at 3:56 AM on July 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
#PermitPatty (who, ironically, appears to not really be permitted to sell cannabis products to dogs) seems to have come from Georgia and if she really wanted the kid to go away she could have just purchased all of the water, sheesh.
Meanwhile, white people are now also calling the police on black firefighters in uniform who are on the job. You can't tell me there's anything about "economic anxiety" or other attempts to euphemize "emboldened to be racist and bullying by the current administration's open yearning for a return to Jim Crow" with something like this.
posted by TwoStride at 10:47 AM on July 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, white people are now also calling the police on black firefighters in uniform who are on the job. You can't tell me there's anything about "economic anxiety" or other attempts to euphemize "emboldened to be racist and bullying by the current administration's open yearning for a return to Jim Crow" with something like this.
posted by TwoStride at 10:47 AM on July 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also, my neighborhood has a PermitPatty in the making, who appears to be genuinely mentally ill and fixated on the property next to hers and who harrassed the new family within an hour of their moving in about some complaint she has about their property and was all breathless about how rude they were to her, oh my, when she apparently went over there and immediately threated to sue them. The people who were still in the process of moving in. I'm rooting for the new neighbors to call the cops on her. Several of us have tried asking her to knock it off, to no avail.
posted by TwoStride at 10:55 AM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by TwoStride at 10:55 AM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, my neighborhood has a PermitPatty in the making, who appears to be genuinely mentally ill and fixated on the property next to hers and who harrassed the new family within an hour of their moving in about some complaint she has about their property and was all breathless about how rude they were to her, oh my, when she apparently went over there and immediately threated to sue them. The people who were still in the process of moving in. I'm rooting for the new neighbors to call the cops on her. Several of us have tried asking her to knock it off, to no avail.
If there's a local mental health line, it might be a better resource. They may have outreach workers who can come talk to the harassing neighbor. Getting people with untreated or under-treated mental illness involved with the police is not really great, either.
posted by lazuli at 11:05 AM on July 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
If there's a local mental health line, it might be a better resource. They may have outreach workers who can come talk to the harassing neighbor. Getting people with untreated or under-treated mental illness involved with the police is not really great, either.
posted by lazuli at 11:05 AM on July 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
they patched it through to 911 and sent a cop
Our state systems are so malnourished and our political imaginations so limited we can’t think of or enact any action other then send the guys with guns who can legally murder people.
The NYD tried a community outreach program that backfired, all they got were quality of life complaints, the exact kind of complaints it was intended to avoid.
End broken windows policing and reduce the size of the police force, replace half of them with social workers for a start. Crime is at historic lows, and a guy with a gun is not going to solve the problem of homeless people on your block.
posted by The Whelk at 11:53 AM on July 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Our state systems are so malnourished and our political imaginations so limited we can’t think of or enact any action other then send the guys with guns who can legally murder people.
The NYD tried a community outreach program that backfired, all they got were quality of life complaints, the exact kind of complaints it was intended to avoid.
End broken windows policing and reduce the size of the police force, replace half of them with social workers for a start. Crime is at historic lows, and a guy with a gun is not going to solve the problem of homeless people on your block.
posted by The Whelk at 11:53 AM on July 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Permit Patty lied about only pretending to call 911 ....but they hung up on her
posted by brujita at 12:16 PM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 12:16 PM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
> 911 always, always sends the cops even if you are asking for firefighters or an ambulance
Interesting -- in my city, 911 always gets you firefighters. The idea is that they can handle more emergencies than EMTs can. I don't know what it takes to get a police officer to come; I've called 911 a few times but it's never been for a cop-relevant situation.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:16 PM on July 1, 2018
Interesting -- in my city, 911 always gets you firefighters. The idea is that they can handle more emergencies than EMTs can. I don't know what it takes to get a police officer to come; I've called 911 a few times but it's never been for a cop-relevant situation.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:16 PM on July 1, 2018
Huh, that is interesting. In Asheville they send the cops and the firefighters - but the cops come first. And it totally doesn’t matter what you ask for, they send everyone.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:48 PM on July 1, 2018
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:48 PM on July 1, 2018
Something to support the claim that the reasons people move into a new neighborhood are because the neighborhood is "cool" or "a bargain"
Overview from the Journal of Lutheran Ethics, "Gentrification: Causes and Consequences":
Commentary: Causes and Consequences of Gentrification and the Future of Equitable Development Policy by Derek Hyra at American University:
and something to support the claim that people who move to new neighborhoods in cities that aren't NYC can afford to live "LOTS" of places.
Just to clarify, I meant lots of places within a given metropolitan area, not anywhere in the US/world.
Evidence for that can be seen in the "Governing" magazine webpage I linked to in a previous comment - here it is again: Cleveland Gentrification Maps and Data. The map embedded on that page has pop-ups for each defined census area; in the years from 2000-2013 there were 10 census tracts out of 177 that gentrified, and if you examine the pop-ups and compare gentrified tracts with those that are not, there are plenty of the non-gentrified tracts where home prices and median income are equal to or lower than the gentrified areas even after the gentrification. Clearly, then, people could afford to live in lots of areas of Cleveland - why they choose to move to the gentrified areas is therefore affected by factors beyond or in addition to price.
Furthermore, that map is actually missing some real-world information - namely, that Cleveland (rather unusually for Midwestern cities) has over the decades mostly chosen not to annex its inner-ring suburbs, so the areas marked Lakewood, Brooklyn, Cleveland Heights, and Euclid (among others) are definitely part of the greater Cleveland metropolitan area and yet generally have median incomes and home values closer to the city's post-gentrified areas or the areas not gentrified because they were already in the top 60th percentile of median income and home values.
And from that page you can move to similar maps for other cities, and see what looks like a very similar pattern. NYC data is one of those pages, and also has a similar pattern - although, again, given NYC's rare if not unique (in the US) elements of population density plus very limited real estate, I'm certainly willing to believe that at least some of NYC's gentrification issues are due to economic pressure or necessity.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:56 PM on July 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Overview from the Journal of Lutheran Ethics, "Gentrification: Causes and Consequences":
The so-called “supply-side” theories of gentrification rely on some version of the premise that various forces cause the price of inner-city housing to decline to the point where it becomes desirable for outsiders to buy it and convert it to a higher value use. [. . . ] Just as lower prices once drew people to the periphery of the city, now lower prices begin to draw them back toward the center. The combination of lower cost and proximity to the central city makes certain central neighborhoods more desirable than the suburbs, especially for people with high incomes and access to credit who are most able to convert central city housing to higher priced rental property or single-family homes. (emphasis mine)"Understanding Gentrification's Causes" (pdf link), by Jeffrey Lin, economist at the Federal Reserve of Philadelphia:
The demand-side theories complement the supply-side theories and focus on the demographic, employment and cultural shifts that explain why people move into gentrifying neighborhoods.
Changing demographics may be increasing the number of people interested in moving toward the central city. Demographers tell us there are a growing number of double income couples having children at an older age. Gentrification scholars, on the other hand, point out that young, wealthy, childless people – exactly those in the growing demographic – are more likely to move into gentrified neighborhoods.
What causes neighborhood change?(While the paper only mentions "restaurants" specifically, I see no reason one wouldn't include things like clubs, bars, record stores, bicycle shops, art galleries, etc. as possibly desirable "amenities" = things that make a neighborhood "cool.")
Given how often neighborhoods change, we have to wonder: Why do they change? One starting point is to categorize neighborhood features that may affect the socioeconomic status of its households and the types of activities found there into four types: amenities, productivity, access, and prices. Then we can understand changes in neighborhood status via changes in one or more of these four factors.
First, an amenity is a feature of a neighborhood that some household is willing to pay for in order to enjoy—for example,
a good school, a view of the ocean, or a wide variety of restaurants all increase the amenity value of a neighborhood.
Commentary: Causes and Consequences of Gentrification and the Future of Equitable Development Policy by Derek Hyra at American University:
The forces driving the current gentrification pattern stem from multiple levels, including global, national, and city dynamics (Hyra, 2012). Foremost, as research—in this symposium, by Jackelyn Hwang and Jeffrey Lin, but also elsewhere—demonstrates, the disproportionate movement of the educated Millennials, 20- to 30-somethings, to the central city, particularly in large municipalities, is a primary element of this urban renewal trend (Hwang and Lin, 2016). Articles by Baum-Snow and Hartley (2016), Couture and Handbury (2016), and Ding, Hwang, and Divringi (2015) provide clear evidence that the movement of young professionals to central business district (CBD) areas has stimulated the redevelopment of nearby low-income neighborhoods. Why, though, is this group, that once might have preferred the suburbs or other more expensive urban neighborhoods, entering low-income areas once labeled as the “no-go” zones? [. . . ] Couture and Handbury (2016) suggested educated Millennials prefer the central city versus the suburbs because of its density of service amenities, such as third-wave coffee shops, craft-beer gardens, and bike shares. [. . . ] Furthermore, many city leaders listened to and acted on the advice of certain urban scholars who espoused that amenity-rich CBDs would lure the creative class to downtown neighborhoods (Clark, 2011; Florida, 2014; Glaeser and Shapiro, 2003).All of the above have additional sources and footnotes if anyone cares to dig further. Note, however, that in these articles/papers (and others) there is little or no consideration given to the idea that gentrification happens because relatively high-income people are pushed into lower-income areas because their own neighborhoods have been taken over by even higher-income residents. Maybe this is a blind spot on the part of researchers, maybe this is a recent enough development that speciality research hasn't yet percolated out to places accessible to the general public, but all in all clearly the current understanding of gentrification considers it largely a function of choice and desire more than necessity.
and something to support the claim that people who move to new neighborhoods in cities that aren't NYC can afford to live "LOTS" of places.
Just to clarify, I meant lots of places within a given metropolitan area, not anywhere in the US/world.
Evidence for that can be seen in the "Governing" magazine webpage I linked to in a previous comment - here it is again: Cleveland Gentrification Maps and Data. The map embedded on that page has pop-ups for each defined census area; in the years from 2000-2013 there were 10 census tracts out of 177 that gentrified, and if you examine the pop-ups and compare gentrified tracts with those that are not, there are plenty of the non-gentrified tracts where home prices and median income are equal to or lower than the gentrified areas even after the gentrification. Clearly, then, people could afford to live in lots of areas of Cleveland - why they choose to move to the gentrified areas is therefore affected by factors beyond or in addition to price.
Furthermore, that map is actually missing some real-world information - namely, that Cleveland (rather unusually for Midwestern cities) has over the decades mostly chosen not to annex its inner-ring suburbs, so the areas marked Lakewood, Brooklyn, Cleveland Heights, and Euclid (among others) are definitely part of the greater Cleveland metropolitan area and yet generally have median incomes and home values closer to the city's post-gentrified areas or the areas not gentrified because they were already in the top 60th percentile of median income and home values.
And from that page you can move to similar maps for other cities, and see what looks like a very similar pattern. NYC data is one of those pages, and also has a similar pattern - although, again, given NYC's rare if not unique (in the US) elements of population density plus very limited real estate, I'm certainly willing to believe that at least some of NYC's gentrification issues are due to economic pressure or necessity.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:56 PM on July 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Thanks for the links, soundguy99. I will definitely read these through.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:33 PM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:33 PM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thanks, soundguy99
posted by eustacescrubb at 9:52 PM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by eustacescrubb at 9:52 PM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
This one is particularly nuts: #MourningWhileBlack now a thing, too, as a priest angrily kicked a black family out in the middle of a funeral mass.
posted by TwoStride at 12:56 PM on July 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 12:56 PM on July 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Direct .mp4 link for the above TV news story, Twitter post of phone video, apology from the priest: “I uttered words I never use,” at least not appearing to dispute what was attributed to him. Having been around some beer-brewing monks, both while sober and inebriated, I was kind of shocked even though I'm not Catholic.
posted by XMLicious at 9:52 PM on July 2, 2018
posted by XMLicious at 9:52 PM on July 2, 2018
That was not the most shining example of priesthood, but I don't actually think that one was about race, though. My majority-minority church would be aghast and horrified if someone knocked the communion chalice to the ground, too. It hasn't come up as long as I've been attending church because everyone is like superhumanly cautious and gives that thing like a three foot berth at the least - and the priest lost his temper very, very badly for which he has been admonished by the archdiocese.
(also, Fox News, 'the church's sacred gold cup', really? Way to Know-Nothing this story, asshats.)
But his apology seems pretty sincere, though.
(also, Fox News, 'the church's sacred gold cup', really? Way to Know-Nothing this story, asshats.)
But his apology seems pretty sincere, though.
Some might dismiss these words, given the tenor of the words I uttered before the funeral that was to take place on Wednesday. That is a just part of the consequence I will bear for my behavior. Like all human beings, I, too, am broken in nature, make mistakes and, yes, I fail. My life has been, is now, and prayerfully will always be, a life in which my daily words and deeds exemplify the Gospel message. My most recent actions do not reflect who I am as a priest. I have spent much of my life working to lessen the challenges and ease the burden of people whose lives are heavy with struggles. I understand that my recent actions have now added a burden to their lives — a sad consequence that I must confront and for which I take responsibility.posted by corb at 11:33 PM on July 2, 2018
My recent actions and words were not borne of kindness, but a failure of my vow to serve the Lord and those entrusted to my care as a person and as priest. I am profoundly sorry for my words and actions. I pray for all in this community every day, and I can only ask that you pray for me, but also for other priests and ministers, and all who seek to serve those who suffer and struggle as we strive to build up the kingdom of God.
I am Presbyterian, not Catholic, but the cup we use for communion is just a cup. This one may have been very fancy and made of gold, but it just a thing. This priest valued a thing over actual people, including the body of the deceased, which he called "that thing".
From his "apology": But can two minutes erase a quarter-century of a person’s life and commitment to serving and caring for his community and those entrusted to his care?
Yes. In those two minutes, he showed his community and those entrusted to his care who he really is. They should believe him. He does not love them. He does not care for them. He does not mourn the passing of a beloved child of God. He loves that cup more than them. If it was not due to their race, then he simply doesn't love his congregants in general.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:17 AM on July 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
From his "apology": But can two minutes erase a quarter-century of a person’s life and commitment to serving and caring for his community and those entrusted to his care?
Yes. In those two minutes, he showed his community and those entrusted to his care who he really is. They should believe him. He does not love them. He does not care for them. He does not mourn the passing of a beloved child of God. He loves that cup more than them. If it was not due to their race, then he simply doesn't love his congregants in general.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:17 AM on July 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
I am Presbyterian, not Catholic, but the cup we use for communion is just a cup. This one may have been very fancy and made of gold, but it just a thing. This priest valued a thing over actual people, including the body of the deceased, which he called “that thing”.
I think the six-hundred-year fight of “Transubstantiation: yea or nay?” is probably beyond the scope of Metafilter, but I do think it’s worth clarifying that different religions have different very sincere beliefs about the holiness of various things others might consider objects. The holiness of this particular object, for Catholics, is not granted by any fanciness or gold, but rather because it contains the body and blood of Christ.
And it’s also worth considering whose words you might be unintentionally amplifying when you dismissively refer to things other people consider holy in this way. I’m sure that most if not all Mefites reading this are big believers in ecumenism and don’t believe in increasing prejudice against various religions - but there is a good portion of evangelicals in America that vehemently disagree and are happy to call Catholics “not even Christians”. One of the slurs that they frequently use - and that Fox News is apparently happy to repeat - in anti-Catholic prejudice is that they “worship idols” or “worship gold”. It’s an attempt to draw parallels between modern Catholic worship, and the golden calf, or the love of gold for its own sake, thus denigrating the Catholic religion and those who practice it. It’s often used as a way to exclude the types of people who tend to be Catholic from the general Christian fellowship that they claim to espouse.
posted by corb at 7:32 AM on July 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
I think the six-hundred-year fight of “Transubstantiation: yea or nay?” is probably beyond the scope of Metafilter, but I do think it’s worth clarifying that different religions have different very sincere beliefs about the holiness of various things others might consider objects. The holiness of this particular object, for Catholics, is not granted by any fanciness or gold, but rather because it contains the body and blood of Christ.
And it’s also worth considering whose words you might be unintentionally amplifying when you dismissively refer to things other people consider holy in this way. I’m sure that most if not all Mefites reading this are big believers in ecumenism and don’t believe in increasing prejudice against various religions - but there is a good portion of evangelicals in America that vehemently disagree and are happy to call Catholics “not even Christians”. One of the slurs that they frequently use - and that Fox News is apparently happy to repeat - in anti-Catholic prejudice is that they “worship idols” or “worship gold”. It’s an attempt to draw parallels between modern Catholic worship, and the golden calf, or the love of gold for its own sake, thus denigrating the Catholic religion and those who practice it. It’s often used as a way to exclude the types of people who tend to be Catholic from the general Christian fellowship that they claim to espouse.
posted by corb at 7:32 AM on July 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
That was not the most shining example of priesthood, but I don't actually think that one was about race, though.
He called her body "that thing".
That.
Thing.
He used his position of power to literally dehumanize a person of another race. If it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, arguing "Yeah, but it might be a goose..." doesn't really solve how to get it off your patio.
posted by Etrigan at 7:36 AM on July 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
He called her body "that thing".
That.
Thing.
He used his position of power to literally dehumanize a person of another race. If it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, arguing "Yeah, but it might be a goose..." doesn't really solve how to get it off your patio.
posted by Etrigan at 7:36 AM on July 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
I agree with corb on the "cup for communion is not 'just a cup'" to Catholics.
However, I agree with hydropsyche on "two ugly minutes CAN damage 25 years of best behavior". The priest should be well aware that while God can and does offer forgiveness, God usually expects people to make a good Act of Contrition first, and to serve penance and truly mean to sin no more.
And if God expects that of us, can we truly be surprised if parishoners expect more of this priest before they forgive him too?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:37 AM on July 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
However, I agree with hydropsyche on "two ugly minutes CAN damage 25 years of best behavior". The priest should be well aware that while God can and does offer forgiveness, God usually expects people to make a good Act of Contrition first, and to serve penance and truly mean to sin no more.
And if God expects that of us, can we truly be surprised if parishoners expect more of this priest before they forgive him too?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:37 AM on July 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
I do my best to understand the meaning of transubstantiation to my fellow Christians to whom that is important while acknowledging it is outside my bailiwick, but if Jesus gave his body and blood for us, which we all believe, then I'm sure he gave them for those people right there and did not want the priest to treat them that way. And judging by the horror from my Catholic (and Episcopal and Lutheran) friends, it's not just because I'm Presbyterian that I think what he did was wrong.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:18 PM on July 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:18 PM on July 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
My most recent actions do not reflect who I am as a priest.
But they do. It’s just that his actions contradict the way he sees himself.
This is the same as people mewling about how mass incarceration of immigrant children isn’t America. It sure as shit is, it’s just that being forced to see the truth about oneself can be difficult if one is deeply attached to ignoring the rot in themselves.
posted by palomar at 1:26 PM on July 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
But they do. It’s just that his actions contradict the way he sees himself.
This is the same as people mewling about how mass incarceration of immigrant children isn’t America. It sure as shit is, it’s just that being forced to see the truth about oneself can be difficult if one is deeply attached to ignoring the rot in themselves.
posted by palomar at 1:26 PM on July 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
And judging by the horror from my Catholic (and Episcopal and Lutheran) friends, it's not just because I'm Presbyterian that I think what he did was wrong.
Oh no, I think we all agree on that the priest was wrong - I just -hmmm. Differ on where the wrongness is centered, I guess?
I am not a scholarly enough Catholic to opine on the personhood status of a body the immortal soul has already departed from - but I don't need to be, because technical correctness is nice, but pales before the literally every one of the cardinal virtues utterly violated by this action: Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, and Temperance. He wasn't wrong to have the emotion of anger at the incident with the chalice - but in my eyes, he was wrong in emotionally hurting the living people present in the church and denying them the solace of a Catholic funeral for the sake of that anger.
And I do think, on further reflection - something along EmpressCallipygos' lines - that the priest is showing sincere repentance for the wrong thing. He's showing repentance for his wrath and loss of control, but not for the true impact on the family - more than just 'anger and embarrassment', but for the fact that his words and actions had meaning given by context beyond himself. Because the issue of personhood is a different matter for a priest who thinks abstractly than it is for the family of the deceased, who have probably already experienced institutional racism and dehumanization, not to mention being unwelcome in places they deserved to be. Whether or not a corpse is still a person is an abstract issue, except to the people who are mourning their sudden and terrible loss, and who have also been thrust out of the church at a time when they most should be welcomed in.
posted by corb at 4:01 PM on July 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh no, I think we all agree on that the priest was wrong - I just -hmmm. Differ on where the wrongness is centered, I guess?
I am not a scholarly enough Catholic to opine on the personhood status of a body the immortal soul has already departed from - but I don't need to be, because technical correctness is nice, but pales before the literally every one of the cardinal virtues utterly violated by this action: Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, and Temperance. He wasn't wrong to have the emotion of anger at the incident with the chalice - but in my eyes, he was wrong in emotionally hurting the living people present in the church and denying them the solace of a Catholic funeral for the sake of that anger.
And I do think, on further reflection - something along EmpressCallipygos' lines - that the priest is showing sincere repentance for the wrong thing. He's showing repentance for his wrath and loss of control, but not for the true impact on the family - more than just 'anger and embarrassment', but for the fact that his words and actions had meaning given by context beyond himself. Because the issue of personhood is a different matter for a priest who thinks abstractly than it is for the family of the deceased, who have probably already experienced institutional racism and dehumanization, not to mention being unwelcome in places they deserved to be. Whether or not a corpse is still a person is an abstract issue, except to the people who are mourning their sudden and terrible loss, and who have also been thrust out of the church at a time when they most should be welcomed in.
posted by corb at 4:01 PM on July 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I do not think that whether or not a corpse is still a person should be an abstract issue to a priest who presides over funerals.
posted by Lexica at 6:05 PM on July 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 6:05 PM on July 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Teen Vogue: “Someone Called the Police on Rep. Janelle Bynum as She Campaigned in Oregon”
posted by XMLicious at 11:03 AM on July 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by XMLicious at 11:03 AM on July 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
And of course this week has also brought us "Pool Patrol Paul"/"ID Adam", the "chairman of the pool" who called the police when he didn't believe that a Black woman was a member of the neighborhood pool.
Irritating note in the video: while the police do ultimately affirm that the woman has a right to be there, what on earth is "neutral" about them forcing her to prove that her pool access card works? That is some bullshit catering to white supremacy right there.
posted by TwoStride at 1:06 PM on July 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
Irritating note in the video: while the police do ultimately affirm that the woman has a right to be there, what on earth is "neutral" about them forcing her to prove that her pool access card works? That is some bullshit catering to white supremacy right there.
posted by TwoStride at 1:06 PM on July 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
In better news, Paul Blart, Pool Cop got himself fired from Sunoco.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:29 PM on July 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:29 PM on July 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
Imagine being so toxic that an oil company doesn’t want to deal with the PR headaches.
posted by Etrigan at 1:58 PM on July 7, 2018
posted by Etrigan at 1:58 PM on July 7, 2018
Pool Cop worked for Sonoco, a packaging supplier.
posted by peeedro at 2:14 PM on July 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 2:14 PM on July 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
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