Economics professor suggests Amazon books & Starbucks replace libraries
July 22, 2018 7:54 AM   Subscribe

Via Forbes.com Described on Twitter as a C- Econ 101 essay, the author continues to defend his position.
posted by k8t (110 comments total) 19 users marked this as a favorite
 
Via a Forbes Contributor (essentially a Forbes-hosted blogger).
posted by ElKevbo at 7:58 AM on July 22, 2018 [7 favorites]




I’m sort of split between wanting the US’s libertarian/selfishness fetish to play out to the obvious hellscape result and, like, wanting people to not suffer.
posted by pompomtom at 8:07 AM on July 22, 2018 [33 favorites]


What a clueless ashtray. My local library offers language classes, judicial assistance, computers and printers (also much needed help operating these), study rooms, reading area for the smaller kids, and much more.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:07 AM on July 22, 2018 [19 favorites]


My kids received Kindles as gifts. I myself own a Nook. All three of these devices are hooked into the local library system, so we can borrow books from the comfort of our home, Starbucks, the library itself, or an Amazon bookstore if we wanted to be ridiculous.

Meanwhile, I was in San Diego recently, and I spent a couple of hours digging through old census reports and flood maps I can't get electronically for a reasonable price, surrounded by people who were reading or were sleeping, and I'm delighted the people sleeping had somewhere to be that wasn't outside, and where they can read and sign up for classes and workshops, and where there is an entire room and staff dedicated to supporting people who have disabilities.

I also found a mug in the gift shop with a little bunny reading a book, captioned "Get Lit" , which I immediately bought for my kids.

Libraries serve everyone, effectively, in ways that for-profit organizations never will. They need more support, not less.
posted by davejay at 8:08 AM on July 22, 2018 [32 favorites]


Coincidentally last week in the New Yorker, John Lanchester (earlier and earliers) has a nice review of some other recent 'gonzo economics' commentary, and asks "Can Economists and Humanists Ever Be Friends?"
posted by PhineasGage at 8:10 AM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]


You know how when someone posts something about spiders and there's always a comment about how nope nope nope nope nope?
That's how I feel about bullshit like this.
posted by sexyrobot at 8:10 AM on July 22, 2018 [27 favorites]


I'm waiting for someone to take his argument apart sentence by sentence.

I feel like Forbes is a click bait blogging platform now.
posted by k8t at 8:11 AM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]


I will never, ever understand how anybody can sincerely believe that there is no such thing as a "public good."
posted by yesster at 8:12 AM on July 22, 2018 [9 favorites]


My response: you know what? Nationalize Amazon.
posted by The Whelk at 8:13 AM on July 22, 2018 [70 favorites]


or were sleeping, and I'm delighted the people sleeping had somewhere to be that wasn't outside,

This is not an argument for public libraries. This is an argument for socialised housing. WTF imperial masters?! Get your shit together.
posted by pompomtom at 8:15 AM on July 22, 2018 [10 favorites]


This is a popular meme - neeeeeds to die. Seven or eight years ago a silicon valley-type "thought leader" friend of my ex's said the same damn thing on my facebook. I was like, do you have ANY idea what you're talking about, you shithead? I'm a SAHM to two small kids. Library programs and activities for my kids have literally kept me sane for the past five years. And that's just me! Our library lets poor students and homeless people access computers and the internet, runs free programs for everything from sexual violence prevention workshops to helping non-English speakers fill out immigration and citizenship forms to drumming lessons for seniors - how the fuck is Starbucks going to replace any of this?

Goddamn I will never run out of steam to rant about this.
posted by MiraK at 8:20 AM on July 22, 2018 [59 favorites]


I've said it before and I'll say it again; Economics is not a 'dismal science', it's a pseudoscience. Economics is to Sociology as Astrology is to Astronomy.

And Economists can't ever be friends with Humanists ... or Human Beings.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:23 AM on July 22, 2018 [31 favorites]


It always amazes me how there's a segment of society that is forever trying to destroy the library system. I'm glad there's this whole other segment that keeps fighting back. Even if I don't use the library system all that often, I'm glad knowing it exists.
posted by Fizz at 8:23 AM on July 22, 2018 [8 favorites]


I really can't think of anything to say about this other than "fuck this guy," so I guess I'll go with that.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 8:24 AM on July 22, 2018 [14 favorites]


This is your regularly scheduled display of privilege and ignorance about what libraries do and the communities we serve.

On Twitter the author keeps asking if libraries are worth our tax dollars — it’s not the same everywhere, but in my area, public libraries have been consistently passing levies by high margins. So there’s that settled.
posted by kittydelsol at 8:28 AM on July 22, 2018 [15 favorites]


We had a city public referendum to raise property taxes to pay for our public libraries a few years ago and it passed in a landslide.
posted by octothorpe at 8:31 AM on July 22, 2018 [11 favorites]


oneswellfoop:

With much respect: bollocks.

Eco is well broad. Slagging off an entire mental endeavour is utter bollocks.
posted by pompomtom at 8:33 AM on July 22, 2018 [18 favorites]


It always amazes me how there's a segment of society that is forever trying to destroy the library system.

it shouldn't - they're the same people who want to destroy the public school system and do away with the minimum wage and public heath care - why? - because people who are kept ignorant and desperate are much more easily lied to and led - of course, eventually they're lied to and led by an unscrupulous demagogue and heads get removed, often of those who were keeping people poor and ignorant
posted by pyramid termite at 8:38 AM on July 22, 2018 [14 favorites]


All of you negative Nellies unable to find anything nice to say about a thought piece. I for one was pleasantly surprised. It's starts out badly and finishes badly, but in between there are no actual arguments to be debunked or supporting statistics to be put in context. So while reading it was a bad use of time it wasn't a long use of time.

"C- essay" seems about right. It's striking that he never says why the non-library model would be better. "This is what we're giving up, this is what we're getting." He doesn't do that in either direction.
posted by mark k at 8:39 AM on July 22, 2018 [8 favorites]


I can't even call this "defending his position" as much as it's "JAQing off".

The thread in response seems to be many, many people pointing out all the things libraries do, and then he comes in with "but are they worth the taxes?"

… uh, yes. That's what people are saying, sometimes explicitly.
posted by cardioid at 8:40 AM on July 22, 2018 [12 favorites]


"C- essay" seems about right.

grade inflation is a curse upon higher education
posted by pyramid termite at 8:43 AM on July 22, 2018 [18 favorites]


But what if I want to go somewhere to read a book without my clothes ending up smelling of stale, burnt coffee?
posted by slater at 8:43 AM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]


On top of this, streaming services such as Netflix and Amazon Prime have replaced video rentals. They provide TV and movie content to the masses at an affordable rate. Actual video rental services like Blockbuster have gone completely out of business.

Then there’s the rise of digital technology. Technology has turned physical books into collector’s items, effectively eliminating the need for library borrowing services.

Of course, there’s Amazon Books to consider. Amazon have created their own online library that has made it easy for the masses to access both physical and digital copies of books. Amazon Books is a chain of bookstores that does what Amazon originally intended to do; replace the local bookstore. It improves on the bookstore model by adding online searches and coffee shops. Amazon Go basically combines a library with a Starbucks.


The above statements suggest that this guy has not used a public library in decades.

My local public library gives me access to two different movie/media streaming services, and access to a whole pile of digital magazines using my library card (Librarians can correct me on this, but my understanding is that consortiums of public libraries sometimes enter into bulk agreements for these services to harness their combined purchasing power, thereby saving everyone money?)

But anyway, not just physical books, man. Need to borrow an Arduino kit? They can help you with that. Need access to a 3D printer, or you'd like to learn about 3D printing? They've got you covered there, too. And. They run ESL and literacy programs. There's also a little thingy called an interlibrary loan if you're looking for something that's not in your local library's collection. Because libraries are connected and shit, and librarians are literally in the business of HELPING YOU FIND STUFF.

It improves on the bookstore model by adding online searches

He knows people with smartphones can do this on the hoof, right? Even if they're standing in an independent bookstore? That sometimes the joy of reading is contained in things you stumbled on while browsing, or a recommendation you got from a well-read or highly-trained human being specializing in such things (the latter call themselves "librarians"). No? Thought not.

Or, really, what Foci for Analysis said: What a clueless ashtray.

I was arranging obscenities in various combinations to come up with something to call this guy, but this seems like a pitch-perfect pejorative. Thank you.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:53 AM on July 22, 2018 [33 favorites]


As a poor kid who grew up in a small, isolated town, the public library saved me. Having a place I could go to hang out, where I could take out as many books/movies/magazines as I wanted, and where I felt safe to be the weird kid in a conservative town is the closest thing to actual magic I can think of. The only thing keeping me from going down a rage spiral about this article is that the author's tweet about it currently has only 106 likes but over 2.4k comments, almost all presumably telling him what a dipshit he is.
posted by helloknitty at 8:55 AM on July 22, 2018 [34 favorites]


This would not receive a passing grade in my economics class.
posted by dismas at 8:55 AM on July 22, 2018 [10 favorites]


This guy is a fucking elitist moron and considers anything that benefits the public at large (or anyone who makes slightly less money than he does) in a positive as something horrible. The fact that this was published on Forbes speaks to who his target audience is.
posted by Old'n'Busted at 8:57 AM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]


But what if I want to go somewhere to read a book without my clothes ending up smelling of stale, burnt coffee?

Then you should buy your books from Amazon, put on your smoking jacket, and retire to your study to read them. Don't forget the cognac.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:57 AM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]


I use my local library all the time, it's great. I can either download electronic books from them or order any book in the system and it shows up at my local branch within two or three days. I can also watch Lynda instructional video through them which is pretty cool too.
posted by octothorpe at 8:58 AM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]


His Tweeter feed is remarkably bot like, filled with bitcoin tweets and the like. I don't even know what LIU is, unless it is a misspelled Kingsmen reference
posted by fallingbadgers at 8:59 AM on July 22, 2018


Having a place I could go to hang out, where I could take out as many books/movies/magazines as I wanted, and where I felt safe to be the weird kid in a conservative town is the closest thing to actual magic I can think of.

Hell yes.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:08 AM on July 22, 2018 [5 favorites]


I don't even know what LIU is

Long Island University, an undistinguished multicampus private school. I'm not super familiar with it but you could think of it as a secondary state school (ie Eastern Statename University or Statename State University at City) that happens to be private. Post is the main campus.

Let's take a minute and pour one out for the econ undergrads at Post and hope the other three are better.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:27 AM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]


His original article is so bad. There is nothing too it. mark k is right, he doesn’t make a case for why this could work, and it seems like the only benefit mentioned is Amazon could increase its value. I got to the end of the article and was confused, I kept expecting more there. Did I miss the “read more” button? No, there really is zero substance.

I cannnot tell if he really likes Amazon, or was just trying to poke a bear for a brief moment of fame.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:28 AM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]


Amazon would profit: trivially, this implies value would be extacted.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:32 AM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]


I appreciate this guy because his proposal elicited so many comments about the services that libraries now provide, that I am now much better informed, and more appreciative of libraries than I was before. Debate is good. This is why we have freedom of speech.

Respect people with different ideas, and if their ideas suck, counter them with better ideas or more accurate information.

That's how you change people's minds. When I first read the headline about replacing libraries, I thought, "Okay, this might be a good idea. Let's be open minded and see what he has to say. I love libraries, but if there's a better alternative, we should consider it."

But commenters here have proposed many good arguments in favor of libraries, and so I now come down firmly on the library side.

(All the people who just said, "Fuck this guy" were not helpful.)
posted by Modest House at 9:40 AM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]


If this writer reads Metafilter and this part of the internet, I wanted to let you know that Metafilter is running a very nice fundraiser right now to disseminate helpful, useful information that also helps disseminate good information.
posted by yueliang at 9:46 AM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]


The people who write these kinds of essays very clearly 1) have money, and 2) rarely read books. Like, it's so obvious this is the kind of person that reads, at best, a book a month--more like a book every two or three months. Which, like, there's nothing wrong with that, but of course you don't see the value in libraries then. The average price of a Kindle book is $7.50. So this kind of person would pay, what, $45 a year for their reading material, or even less?

I read 64 books last year. If I hadn't checked almost all of those out from the library, I would have had to pay $480 or more for my reading material. When I was a kid, I checked out 10 books every two weeks. If we were paying for all those books? That's... that's not sustainable, even for a stable middle class family. And I fully credit my ability to read constantly for my success in college. Being able to read tons of books as a kid was also absolutely a strong factor in the fact that I got into a fully funded graduate program with a 4-year fellowship. So yeah. Even if we're talking in pure numbers, not getting into any of the immaterial benefits, the library has huge economic value. I'm pretty damn sure that I don't pay anywhere near $480 in taxes towards the library. And honestly, even if I did? I would be glad to pay that to a place that's dedicated to the public good, rather than to corporate profits.
posted by brook horse at 9:48 AM on July 22, 2018 [26 favorites]


Some of my fondest childhood memories involved going to the library at the next subway station. I loved walking through the library. I loved the shelves with sci-fi books. Loved figuring out how the library system worked. Loved the people who worked there. It was probably the happiest place outside of home for a shy nerdy kid. Don't talk shit about libraries.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:58 AM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]


I love reading, fuck you.
posted by idiopath at 10:04 AM on July 22, 2018 [5 favorites]


LIU made the news a few years back for locking out its teaching staff at the start of the school year and replacing them with totally unqualified scabs, even though faculty weren't even on strike, so at least the man has found himself an institution worthy of his services.
posted by halation at 10:15 AM on July 22, 2018 [13 favorites]


My 3 y/o takes out 7 picture books a week from the library- call them a fiver each which is probably too low, and that's £1820 per year. Given that's less than my council tax, and they also have a bunch of kids activities, it's a pretty sweet deal.
posted by threetwentytwo at 10:16 AM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]


Respect people with different ideas

lol
the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing civil society to treat any selfish asshole's spoiled, selfish tantrums as 'ideas'
posted by halation at 10:17 AM on July 22, 2018 [57 favorites]


And Economists can't ever be friends with Humanists ... or Human Beings.

So the thing to keep in mind before you react that way is this -

Look at how reactionary right-wing assholes read the Bible: they took a story where Jesus literally chased the moneychangers out of the temple, hung out with a tax collector, healed the sick for free, etc. etc. and use that as a justification for their selfish garbage. I'm haven't been religious in decades, but it's pretty clearly a bad faith reading of the material.

They engage with everything with exactly the same rigor and bad faith. Economics. History. Probably Sesame Street, I'm afraid to check now. Everything they come across is simply strip-mined for buzzwords that support their same childish, self-centered worldview so they can loudly attempt to cheat and bully the rest of us.

tl;dr: never imagine one of these guys is offering you a real perspective about anything, because it's all a con. I think the solution to it is less 'let's pretend it's serious' and more learning to recognize this and dismiss this kind of asshattery everywhere.

Basically: does a person with money want to deny something to poor schoolkids? Then we probably don't need to listen at all.

Upon preview:
the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing civil society to treat any selfish asshole's spoiled, selfish tantrums as 'ideas'

Yep.
posted by mordax at 10:21 AM on July 22, 2018 [13 favorites]


I love my local library in San Francisco, which was just named the library of the year, and I went looking for the announcement to show a list of achievements, and reasons they should stick around. They've seen the article:

@SFPublicLibrary: Maybe @Forbes doesn’t like that you can download their magazine free with your #SF library card.
posted by Pronoiac at 10:23 AM on July 22, 2018 [22 favorites]


One such reason is the rise of “third places” such as Starbucks. They provide residents with a comfortable place to read, surf the web, meet their friends and associates, and enjoy a great drink.

As long as they're not black men in Philadelphia.
posted by rdr at 10:30 AM on July 22, 2018 [17 favorites]


This is not an argument for public libraries. This is an argument for socialised housing.

I don't think those two things are in conflict. Like, yes, there are lots of ways we could offer better social services and take pressure off libraries. But also, libraries do a ton of practical work to shore up whatever columns of your society are most crumbly. It would be super dumb to start kicking out those supports.
posted by john hadron collider at 10:37 AM on July 22, 2018 [5 favorites]


Oh and yes my library has ebooks (including comics and audiobooks), and movies and tv via streaming, DVD, and bluray.
posted by Pronoiac at 10:39 AM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]


I had a friend who made the same argument about 17 years ago. (He had a masters in econ and identified politically as a libertarian. Was also tech savvy
) As my other friend and I challenged his argument it became abundantly clear that he was not aware of the services that libraries offered back then. He did not know that he could use the library's website to put holds on books and that the library would deliver them to his local branch for pick-up. That was SEVENTEEN years ago, and libraries today offer even more services and convenience. I think we changed his mind? But maybe he doesn't know that he can check out e-books these days.
posted by stowaway at 10:40 AM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]


I don't think this guy is sincere and I will tell you why. A long time ago I was doing a construction job that was at night so work could be done while the offices were closed. I tuned the radio to the evangelical station for entertainment and for the first time I began to see how it worked. Every 1/2 hour or 15 minutes there would be a new "show." They were all of middling to poor quality in their prosperity gospel preachy bs and it dawned on me, or I started to infer, that these were all independent grifters, there was no late night programing, these guys were just a bunch of wannabes plunking down whatever it cost to buy 20 minutes in the 3-4 AM slot to gain access to suckers. After I realized this particular phenomena I began to notice it all along the AM dial. I remember listening to a wannabe Rush Limbaugh/Hannity clown and he was so half hearted and ridiculous and down right pathetic that he could have been a character in a Paul Thomas Anderson movie. Anyway, this econ professor strikes me as a complete sad sack and his proposal seems like just a pathetic stab at attracting attention and ginning up controversy so someone will listen to him. The only mildly frightening thing about it is you feel like there are people with money and power who might think "well that makes sense," or are just somewhat sadistic and like the idea of making us all squirm by destroying what we love.
posted by Pembquist at 10:45 AM on July 22, 2018 [8 favorites]


How does he even figure that Amazon would be incentivized to do this? They killed the bookstore and centralized overhead in their warehouses so they can replicate a dead model in many areas where bookstores weren't profitable enough to exist* in the first place? That makes no sense.



*the small town I'm from never had a bookstore, but they have a library.
posted by Selena777 at 11:09 AM on July 22, 2018 [8 favorites]


The only mildly frightening thing about it is you feel like there are people with money and power who might think "well that makes sense," or are just somewhat sadistic and like the idea of making us all squirm by destroying what we love.

Yeah. This happened where I live. Now the same guy who wanted to slash and burn the Toronto Public Library (or "lieberry," as he understands the word to be pronounced, a proposal for which he was famously dragged by Margaret Atwood and many others), is running the province.

Library funding comes from both the provincial and municipal level here. There's little doubt he's going to try this again, and it's not going to affect just one city this time - and he'll probably succeed given that he's got a majority government in place.

So the discomfiture exhibited in many of the above comments is about more than just a random sad-sack econ prof writing a clickbait piece.

This piece (I like halation's characterization of it as a "tantrum") doesn't exist in some kind of vacuum - it adds to the pile-on of ideological agendas, individuals and corporations in positions of immense power, and straight-up pig ignorance that pose a clear and present danger to public libraries as a vital public institution.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:40 PM on July 22, 2018 [9 favorites]


Let them read books about cake!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:53 PM on July 22, 2018 [7 favorites]


I'm a little bit disappointed (but not surprised) that the writer's first thought is the replacement of libraries with Starbucks cafes, when cafes and libraries are not really in competition with one another and I would even go as far to say that the way people use them is sort of complementary. I visit different libraries often, and when I walk through them frequently see coffee cups right next to laptops (and sometimes people read books there too!).

So, instead of one replacing the other, I think it might be better to think how Starbucks and libraries could partner up. There are some libraries that do run their own cafes, but I think because of Starbucks' ubiquity and convenience, having a presence in libraries would increase library traffic, which is a good thing. I'm reminded how in convenience stores in Taiwan and Japan, they not only provide quick food and coffee, but also have grown to provide some public services like paying bills and sending mail. Because Starbucks is so ubiquitous, maybe they can in turn provide some library services, like having book drops or renewing your library card.

Now, that's just me partly being optimistic and putting aside cynicism temporarily. I know that there are probably good reasons why it made sense for convenience stores to evolve to provide services in those countries, and why there are good reasons why it wouldn't work here in the US. One of them, mentioned above, is that people running businesses frequently seem to have an agenda that the market is always superior and should replace public or government services. So any partnership will likely become a scorpion and frog relationship.

Amazon though, is a whole other bag. I know that some libraries already use Overdrive as their ebook provider, and Overdrive has Amazon deliver books electronically. Other than that, I'm pretty sure Amazon would be happy to replace libraries.
posted by FJT at 1:01 PM on July 22, 2018


Respect people with different ideas, and if their ideas suck, counter them with better ideas or more accurate information.

Having the idea "I wonder if we need libraries at all?" and then writing an article that literally shows zero research or experience with said libraries is, at best, misinformed. At wosrt, which is what this is, it's inflammatory, wrong, and damages the greater good.

Had he done a modicum of research, he would have seen that his idea had no merit. But he didn't. He wrote that article based on a feeling, and wants other people to start making policy decisions based on that feeling. That's dangerous.
posted by cooker girl at 1:22 PM on July 22, 2018 [22 favorites]


By all means, at a moment in American history when the national government in all its branches has gone poisonously insane, let us dispense with a series of very important institutions which are fostered, controlled, and above all protected by local governments in favor of systems owned by big national corporations which can be brought to heel or even regulated out of existence entirely at the stroke of a pen.
posted by jamjam at 1:23 PM on July 22, 2018 [11 favorites]


Amazon's great! I use it to figure out what's in my public library and get it there instead.

About 3 years ago I made a set of Firefox/Chrome extensions that look up whatever book you're checking out on Amazon/Goodreads/Barnes and Noble and notify you of its availability at the DC Public Library. The DCPL catalog software isn't great and I've heard from librarians that when patrons come by not totally sure of a book's title, they search for it on Amazon.com and then navigate to the library catalog with the extension I made.

Makes me feel fuzzy. It's like I've made Amazon into a public utility!
posted by waninggibbon at 3:16 PM on July 22, 2018 [36 favorites]


The part of this I find most vexing isn't that he has the opinion, or that Forbes sponsored its expression. It's that he's the head of an economics department at an accredited university. In my opinion the field of economics hasn't done nearly enough to shape itself as an academic profession instead of a vehicle for the Forbes-writers of the world who make their money from speaking power to truth.
posted by traveler_ at 3:35 PM on July 22, 2018 [5 favorites]


Here's a serious proposal. We need, nay we MUST, blow up the moon.

If you think my idea sucks, it's YOUR JOB to come up with a better idea or counter proposal.
posted by muddgirl at 3:58 PM on July 22, 2018 [19 favorites]


I only clicked on the link to make sure it wasn't the same jerk who made the same suggestion at town meeting this year. (And got shot down pretty effectively)
posted by MtDewd at 4:00 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]


The part of this I find most vexing isn't that he has the opinion, or that Forbes sponsored its expression. It's that he's the head of an economics department at an accredited university.

First, biggest thing: being the head or chair of a department is not an honor and is not given to the person the department thinks is The Best. At most, it might mean your department agrees that you're the best at dealing with your dean/provost/president. At most. More commonly it just means you were willing to do a lot of extra work for not a lot of extra pay (ie about the same as if you taught through summer).

Second thing: he's the chair of a department of four at an undistinguished little school. There are thousands and thousands of dinky little departments of this-and-that scattered all over the US. This sort of thing does not even scratch the surface of dumbassed things their chairs have said this year.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:19 PM on July 22, 2018 [8 favorites]


If you think my idea sucks, it's YOUR JOB to come up with a better idea or counter proposal.

i will - why don't we move to the moon and blow up the earth? why think small?
posted by pyramid termite at 4:25 PM on July 22, 2018 [5 favorites]


He was doubling down on Twitter a couple of hours ago:
Let me clarify something. Local libraries aren't free. Home owners must pay a local library tax. My bill is $495/year.
I love how he's "clarifying", like somehow everyone arguing with him before thought that libraries were supported by magic and didn't know about taxes.
posted by octothorpe at 4:53 PM on July 22, 2018 [13 favorites]


Public libraries have been a big part of my education, which was self-directed and not associated with any actual institution. Yeah, I'm a an autodidact, which means I have been appalled at and unaffected by deconstructionist trends. My public library in Bisbee, AZ provides access to any book my fancy might desire, as well as DVDs of movies and TV series. Twelve PCs provide access to the internet for those local folks who can't afford the fees for broadband. During some slim financial times I've been grateful for this service. This article comes from the privileged few.
posted by Agave at 4:59 PM on July 22, 2018 [5 favorites]


How many libraries could be built with the funds from one canceled Aircraft Carrier (which is basically worthless tech in any real shooting war, ICBM's would eradicate the fleet in the first 15 minutes)?
posted by sammyo at 5:03 PM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]


$495 can't even be all that much where this dingleberry lives. Aren't Long Island property taxes some of the highest in the country? I would think anywhere in America, library taxes are pretty small compared to everything else local taxes have to fund (schools, roads, water, lights, police/jails).

My public library in Bisbee, AZ...

If you ever run into Doug Stanhope, tell him MetaFilter.com member "riruro" likes him in small doses!
posted by riruro at 5:26 PM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]


library taxes are pretty small compared to everything else local taxes have to fund (schools, roads, water, lights, police/jails)

The moment people self-identify as libertarians, they should be disconnected from municipal sewage services and forced to deal with their own leavings. They're all about bootstrapping and self sufficiency, so they should be equal to the task, no?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:01 PM on July 22, 2018 [14 favorites]


these guys were just a bunch of wannabes plunking down whatever it cost to buy 20 minutes in the 3-4 AM slot to gain access to suckers.

Hmm. I wouldn't mind buying twenty minutes of time a week to spew a little sanity instead. I wonder what that costs.
posted by davejay at 6:01 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]


What a clueless ashtray. My local library offers language classes, judicial assistance, computers and printers (also much needed help operating these), study rooms, reading area for the smaller kids, and much more.

Mine has a maker's room with 3-D printers, embroidery machines, banner makers, television and recording studios and a lot of things not otherwise accessible to most people, particularly artists, university students, and small business owners. This "idea" is just thought up by someone who obviously doesn't use a library or has any reality backing up the theory.

But it's people like that who get the publicity, it's sad to say...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 6:16 PM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]


Mine has a large collection of electronic instruments and the various bits and bobs that people who are DJs, beat makers and electronica artists need to make music. Right now (well, tomorrow morning) you can roll up to the music department at the main branch and play 8 different synthesizers that they have just sitting there hooked to to headphones. If you want to jam to yourself on a Moog the Carnegie Library has got you covered. My son takes free chess classes there every Saturday, then he goes to the children's department where they have Makey-Makeys and digital theramins and programmable robots. We donated our old Cubetto robot to the library, where it can now be programmed by preschoolers in Octothorpe's neck of the woods (so I've been told). That's in addition to the books, which at any given time our family has at least 10 checked out.

It was a very proud moment for me as a Pittsburgher when we voted to raise or taxes to pay for our truly exceptional libraries.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:04 PM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]


Zadie Smith’s opening essay in Feel Free is an A+ rebuttal to this ashtray’s essay.
posted by childofTethys at 7:43 PM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]


My town doesn't even have a Starbucks. There are a lot of people in my neighborhood who don't have internet in their homes. We do, however, have a public library with an active DVD rental section, books, audiobooks on CD or tiny dedicated mp3 player, computers and wi-fi, and a very nice graphic novel section. I consider myself a lifelong, exclusive library user.

Libraries provide only good for people. Can economics say the same?
posted by irisclara at 8:09 PM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]




You’re all missing the crucial takeaway from this, which is that the bar is often so much lower than we ever imagine. Who cares what this guy says? What matters is what he stands for: the potential for any one of us to punch way, way above our weight and somehow get away with it. This guy isn’t just a lazy hack, he’s like the mascot for lazy hacks everywhere.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 8:39 PM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]


You’re all missing the crucial takeaway from this, which is that the bar is often so much lower than we ever imagine. Who cares what this guy says? What matters is what he stands for: the potential for any one of us to punch way, way above our weight and somehow get away with it. This guy isn’t just a lazy hack, he’s like the mascot for lazy hacks everywhere.

I do believe the was the point of most of the posters here, including me. Hacks get away with spewing sophistry that does't align with actual reality -- and that he has a title and press coverage gives him undeserved legitimacy...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 9:00 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]


Forbes - that's the organization that blocked ad-blockers, and the very next day hosted malware (presumably unintentionally) with their ads, right? Yeah, that was literally the last time I visited them.
posted by el io at 9:53 PM on July 22, 2018 [5 favorites]


In a few places around Japan, Tsutaya - a video rental chain akin to Blockbuster - has (sort of) teamed up with local governments to build some libraries/bookstores/stationary stores/Starbucks to mixed results:

https://www.ccc.co.jp/en/showcase/sc_004407.html?cat=life

http://www.publiclibrariesnews.com/campaigning/privatized-libraries-outsourcing-library-services/lssi/the-ccctsutaya-library-miracle-in-japan-combined-bookshop-libraries

http://www.japantrends.com/tsutaya-library-komaki-aichi/

Since that Japantrends article was written I think at least three more have popped up:
http://tsite.jp/pc/r/service/library/index.pl

They all look kind of samey to me.
posted by LostInUbe at 10:09 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]


OPB recently did a thing on the aftermath of defunding libraries in Douglas County, OR. (spoiler: librarians are unstoppable)
posted by hishtafel at 10:37 PM on July 22, 2018


Debate is good. This is why we have freedom of speech.

I mean, no. We (in the US) don't have "freedom of speech" incorporated into our constitution because the founding fathers thought "debate is good", we have that freedom of speech so the government can't just unilaterally shut down, kill, or imprison people and organizations who disagree with their policies. The supposed inherent "goodness" of debate didn't enter into it.

Furthermore, you're assuming "debate is good" without providing any backing for this statement, which is assuming a hell of a lot.

When I first read the headline about replacing libraries, I thought, "Okay, this might be a good idea. Let's be open minded and see what he has to say. I love libraries, but if there's a better alternative, we should consider it."
Keeping an open mind is a virtue—but, as the space engineer James Oberg once said, not so open that your brains fall out. - Carl Sagan
Replacing publicly-funded institutions that serve all citizens with "free-market" for-profit corporations is intellectual piffle at best, society-damaging right-wing propaganda at its worst. We've been there, done that - buildings used to burn to the ground while competing fire companies had fistfights in the street over who would get to put out the fire. Conservatives have been pushing this nonsense on us for decades, and every time the public has bought this line of horse puckey, economic inequality has gotten worse, and at this point the US has the 40th highest level of inequality out of 150 countries.

So, y'know, fuck this guy.

That's how you change people's minds.

Giving a condescending lecture to people with the experience and knowledge to immediately see through this badly-written piece of light-weight nonsense propaganda is not exactly a great way to win hearts and minds, either. . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 11:42 PM on July 22, 2018 [15 favorites]


You could make a strong argument that libraries shouldn't be a public good, since they're rival (if I check out a book, you can't check it out) and excludable (it's possible to stop someone from checking out books). If you gave the money back to people (maybe redistributing it to poor people preferentially), then the market would decide on the right number of libraries. In areas with great need, there would end up being tons of libraries; in areas with little need there might be few or none. And the services available would better fit the community need.

The problem is that this exact argument also applies to public schools, and no serious person wants to abolish public schools. (Well, some want to switch everything to charter schools, but those are still a form of public school.)

Perhaps the argument would be more successful if the author had picked a more niche government service, like the tens of billions of dollars that the US spends on airports for rich people with private planes. Or subsidizing services to millions and millions of remote vacation cabins. Or writing checks to farmers to grow less food. There are lots of government services that really, really seem like they should be provided by private entities (if at all), and many of them are a lot more expensive than libraries.

Maybe I shouldn't try to engage seriously with an unedited economics blog post from a trollish professor.
posted by miyabo at 5:17 AM on July 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


About 3 years ago I made a set of Firefox/Chrome extensions that look up whatever book you're checking out on Amazon/Goodreads/Barnes and Noble and notify you of its availability at the DC Public Library.

Very cool!

For those of us not in the DC area, the Library Extension works for a huge number of libraries. One of my local ones wasn't listed & they added it as soon as I sent in a request. It saves me a lot of time because I don't have to visit multiple library websites when I'm looking for a specific book.
posted by belladonna at 5:58 AM on July 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


no serious person wants to abolish public schools

I have got some bad news for you, friend. (I mean, we could define "serious person" as "person who does not want to abolish public schools" but I'm not sure that's what you meant.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:04 AM on July 23, 2018 [10 favorites]


Abolishing public schooling is a pretty common libertarian opinion. Ron Paul wrote a book on the subject a few years ago.
posted by octothorpe at 7:18 AM on July 23, 2018


You could make a strong argument that libraries shouldn't be a public good, since they're rival (if I check out a book, you can't check it out)

They aren't really rival, anymore than a road is (if I'm at a location on a road, you can't be there too.) The thing most people want to do with a book is read to it, and multiple people can indeed do that. It's not like every household needs all of Shakespeare's works or a Consumer Reports subscription, but it's nice that they are available to each household.

Maybe I shouldn't try to engage seriously with an unedited economics blog post from a trollish professor.

Yeah, I was going through funding in my head (is it fee for service? subsidized versions? licensing libraries to Starbucks? ) before I decided it wasn't worth it.

I'm honestly not sure he's trollish so much as not very smart. He seems to have noticed that he does some 'office work' in Starbucks instead of libraries these days and thought this was a great idea. Unlike a good troll he's unprepared for the push back.

I could write a better contrarian bit on privatizing libraries than this and I like libraries.
posted by mark k at 7:30 AM on July 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


Yeah, the link has been 404'd - and it looks like Amazon did a big clean up on the 1 star reviews that were pouring in on his book.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:38 AM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


The pinnacle of I've got mine, too bad for you.
posted by theora55 at 8:01 AM on July 23, 2018


and then he comes in with "but are they worth the taxes?"

What he means is, "what am I getting out of libraries that's worth my taxes?

Because "a better-educated, more culturally aware populace of readers" doesn't occur to him as a benefit. And of course, he doesn't see the duplication of effort and cost in "everyone should just own all the books they care to read" as a waste.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:13 AM on July 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


"Let me clarify something. Local libraries aren't free. Home owners must pay a local library tax. My bill is $495/year."

I can't figure out what he thinks he's proving here.

Does he believe there are really that many households who are paying $500 a year in library related taxes? The entire "cultural services" portion of my property tax bill is about 1/10th of what he claims to be paying just for libraries, and I live in a "good" neighbourhood in a municipality that supports 18 library branches that provide a wide range of services.

And in any case, he can't seriously be claiming his entire household collectively spends less than $500 a year on books (and ebooks, audiobooks, magazines, newspapers, videos, music, etc) and other services that are available at his local public library. His Library Substitute budget theoretically involves spending at least $140 a year on a Netflix account and another $130 on an Amazon Prime account, and - since he's declared paper media outdated - he needs to supply a reasonably large colour display e-Reader of some sort to each family member too. I could be ungenerous and throw in the annual cost of his home internet, his computer, his printer (and ink). Not even going to bother trying to enumerate the value of various equivalent children's programs, cultural programs, tech education programs...

Mainly he's proving that he doesn't think things through and he resents paying taxes to ensure basic services are available to all when he personally can afford to pay (more) out of pocket for private versions of those amenities (just like people who resent paying taxes towards public schools when they can afford private).
posted by Secret Sparrow at 8:25 AM on July 23, 2018


From the City of Pittsburgh's website:
The 2016 City Real Estate Tax rate is 8.06 mills.
The 2016 School District Real Estate Tax rate is 9.84 mills.
The 2016 Carnegie Library Real Estate Tax rate is 0.25 mills.
I don't math real good, but I think that works out to less than $30/year out of my property taxes for the library.

Now, this dude apparently lives somewhere where they defunded the library to such an egregious extent that to solve the problem they had to institute a limited time emergency funding tax. So, like, don't do that. Pay a little now or pay a lot later.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:03 AM on July 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


Now, this dude apparently lives somewhere where they defunded the library to such an egregious extent that to solve the problem they had to institute a limited time emergency funding tax

One of the funs of living in NY is the myriad of tiny little, ridiculously inefficient districts, especially for schools and, often coterminously, libraries. Added milkshake-duck bonus: they're SUPER RACIST.

He's presumably somewhere in Nassau County, or maybe western Suffolk. That or he loves commuting. What I would bet is *really* going on is that that he lives in a district that's very small and so costs a lot per household to run a reasonable level of service. The payoff for the locals is keeping nearby black people out of their libraries. Otherwise, they could just run a unified county-level library system like Erie County does.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:32 AM on July 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


(that or, Nassau-Suffolk being what it is, that his library taxes mostly just line the pockets of the local mob)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:37 AM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


A point about the Pittsburgh numbers cited above — a .25 mill levy is quite small. My local library passed a 2.2 mill replacement levy, with 71% of the vote I might add, a few years back. I pay nearly $200/year with a modest home value. Statewide, in the last election, all 10 library measures on the ballot passed with an average millage of 1.25, with a range from .4 to 2.8. Library funding is varied and complicated, yo!
posted by kittydelsol at 10:04 AM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


Ohh, he has a book.

What would you bet that the real motive behind this attack is that libraries collectively turned up their noses at it, and his wounded pride demands revenge?
posted by jamjam at 10:42 AM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


relevant C&H
posted by riruro at 11:00 AM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


Also here in Pittsburgh. I have five library e-books on loan right now, several more on hold, they often buy the books I specifically recommend for purchase, and at least a couple of times a month after work I wander over to the main branch and pass a happy afternoon reading whatever looks good*. I get my $30/year worth of services from our library in any given week, let alone in a year.

*In case any locals don't know this: the Oakland location's second floor stacks have a big glass window adjoining the history museum, so while you read you can look out over DINOSAUR DIORAMAS and also watch little kids lose their freaking minds about dinosaurs. Don't tell me any random bookstore is going to replicate DINOSAUR READING HOUR for me.
posted by Stacey at 11:07 AM on July 23, 2018 [9 favorites]


I tried to open the link to read the half hearted article but apparently it returns a 404, so yay, no need to fill my head with his drivel. Has he... never stepped in a library in Brooklyn, Manhattan, or Queens? Not even for research? I mean, maybe he never gets out of Long Island or something and commutes directly to whatever branch of LIU he teaches in (and I'm assuming the Brooklyn branch is at least one of them), but there are, like, a lot of libraries in NYC to completely never see. And his argument is even more hilarious considering he says this days after the Culture Pass announcement for all NYPL card holders - free entries into places like the Moma ($25/pp), Brooklyn Botanic ($15/pp), Guggenheim ($25/pp), the Intrepid ($33/pp) seriously pays for itself from the library taxes alone on first entry with a family.

On the other hand, my husband readily admitted he never went to any of the NYC libraries growing up (and this shocked me horribly) and he thought they were only houses of a threadbare selection of books until I disabused him of this notion.
posted by crankytalking at 11:41 AM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]




"Let me clarify something. Local libraries aren't free. Home owners must pay a local library tax. My bill is $495/year."

As the majority, isn't "I don't care?" a sufficient enough counterargument? How many of these articles are just rich guys doing the taxation equivalent of arguing about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?
posted by Selena777 at 12:45 PM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


“Libraries play an important role in our society. This article was outside of this contributor’s specific area of expertise, and has since been removed.”

lol your argument was so bad even forbes wouldn't stand by it my dude
posted by dismas at 2:34 PM on July 23, 2018 [5 favorites]


I would suggest public libraries replace school libraries when they are close enough. Our local, public elementary has recently begun transformation of the library into an "idea lab", which is to say they are moving toward technology and away from books. I'm supportive of that because given the limited budget it will meet a lot of needs while still providing kids with plenty of books, although not as many as before. Our little town still has a small branch of the county library from which you can get books directly or order them from the entire library system online and pick them up and is threatened with being shut down due to lack of patronage. Checking ebooks out online doesn't give points to the library roster but only physically coming in does. The school is close enough to the library that the kids from 3rd to 5th grade walk down there once a week for, ironically, tech projects sponsored by the nonprofit "friends of the library" group. Why not merge the local library with the school, combine public resources so that we don't have to pay for both school libraries and public libraries from different pots. Proximity is key but I think resources are wasted to maintain both, and bussing when done is often for far less good reason.
posted by waving at 4:21 PM on July 23, 2018


I would suggest public libraries replace school libraries when they are close enough.

But then where will we do apocalyptic battle with snake creatures rising out of the Hellmouth?
posted by the_blizz at 5:13 PM on July 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


(All the people who just said, "Fuck this guy" were not helpful.)

Oh, I disagree. Let's say I was too tired, or too drunk, or too generous, or too stupid to notice how badly written, how poorly argued this article was. All the fuck yous are a good signal that this guy is not to be taken seriously.
posted by the_blizz at 5:17 PM on July 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


I would suggest public libraries replace school libraries when they are close enough.

This is a terrible idea. For several years I worked as a librarian on a bookmobile that served rural elementary schools. While any student was able to use their school library, not every student was able to come onto our bus for the same reason that not every child can check out books from a library branch. In order to use a public library, including a bookmobile, anyone under 18 has to get their parent/guardian's permission to use the library. You can't depend on every parent to turn in the paperwork/take their child to the library to get a card. And if they do have a public library card, the parent can use that card to check out materials, and never bring them back or bring them back late, which means the child can no longer check out books because of fines they didn't incur. I get the idea of an "idea lab" being attractive, but the less books there are, the less kids who are unable to use a public library are going to have access to books, and the ability to not only find books to read for pleasure, but materials they need to complete classroom assignments. Technology is great, and as a public librarian I obviously support it, but through my own experience I know that you would be putting a lot of kids at a disadvantage.
posted by helloknitty at 5:48 PM on July 23, 2018 [8 favorites]


Turns out you could replace his economics department with Amazon and a Starbucks tho
posted by klangklangston at 11:02 PM on July 23, 2018 [14 favorites]


replace his economics department

I'd kick in $0.75, you bet
posted by mwhybark at 12:29 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]


Technology is great, and as a public librarian I obviously support it, but through my own experience I know that you would be putting a lot of kids at a disadvantage.

I understand what you're saying but they're reducing the school library space regardless of whether or not kids go to our public library or not. It's nice to say to keep both fully functioning but it's not happening. If we don't get the census up at our local library they're going to shut it down.
posted by waving at 12:57 AM on July 24, 2018


All the fuck yous are a good signal that this guy is not to be taken seriously.

Exactly. I have sincerely enjoyed watching all of the amazing defending of public libraries done both here and all over social media, but at the same time I really feel like dude's argument was so shitty that it didn't really deserve to be engaged with. But yes, for the reasons others have pointed out like other rich whypipo might read this and agree with it, of course there should have been a response. And obviously the response was vociferous enough to get even Forbes to take notice and self-correct.
posted by Maaik at 6:57 AM on July 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


I understand what you're saying but they're reducing the school library space regardless of whether or not kids go to our public library or not

Next to schools would be a very good place to put a bunch of branch libraries. My city combines school and rec center/park property and it's been great. Proximity of public resources to other public resources is a good idea.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:01 AM on July 24, 2018


So are all small Econ departments infested with petty little libertarians like this guy? I've taken exactly on economics class (Macro 101) and the professor was exactly like this guy. He made us read the Friedmans' Free to Choose even though it wasn't in the curriculum and spent most of the semester schooling us on the evils of government and how Bill Clinton (this was in 1993) was going to destroy the economy.

The kicker was that this was a community college class and he was collecting his salary from the taxpayers of Allegheny County.
posted by octothorpe at 7:11 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]


All the fuck yous are a good signal that this guy is not to be taken seriously.
posted by the_blizz


um excuse me the proper plural is "fucks you"
posted by the phlegmatic king at 7:23 AM on July 24, 2018 [3 favorites]


If this guy had done even a little bit of research he would have noted that trying to fuck with librarians (on Twitter!) is a terrible idea.
posted by koucha at 7:44 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]


« Older Dank Simpsons Remixes   |   The Octonions (Real Numbers Are Trivial) Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments