Well, what liquid would people want or need
July 26, 2018 6:33 AM   Subscribe

to swirl in a small centrifuge? Semen! Featuring: Sperm panic! -- actual research, and lack thereof -- research funding, and lack thereof -- Silicon Valley to the rescue! -- Do social factors influence your sperm counts? -- Awful men on the internet! -- and tiny home centrifuges.
posted by Hypatia (40 comments total) 8 users marked this as a favorite
 
“As we dive deep into sperm,” he said, “we find that lifestyle matters most.”
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:53 AM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]


The room Dr. Turek calls the “masturbatorium” has a lava lamp, framed Playboy magazines and a photo of a vintage Maserati (his own).

Eek. I can feel my sperm count dropping...and I’m a girl!
posted by The Toad at 7:05 AM on July 26, 2018 [12 favorites]


the “masturbatorium” has a lava lamp, framed Playboy magazines ...

Eek. I can feel my sperm count dropping

That would be a step up from a white tile floor and bare taupe walls, ripped brown pleather recliner, 12" CRT tv/dvd player with a small stack of horrid DVDs and a grimy, crusty remote control.

Oh, and a couple fighting just outside the door in hushed, hissing tones.
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:24 AM on July 26, 2018 [7 favorites]


Dr. Paul Turek was on his way to speak to employees at a cryptocurrency investment firm one recent afternoon about a growing anxiety for the men in the office: what’s going on with their sperm?

Why do I feel like the opening sentence to this article tells me everything I need to know about its subjects?
posted by duffell at 7:26 AM on July 26, 2018 [30 favorites]


(Side note: I think it would be really hilarious if we all started calling chastity belts "blockchains.")
posted by duffell at 7:27 AM on July 26, 2018 [30 favorites]


Dr. Paul Turek was on his way to speak to employees at a cryptocurrency investment firm one recent afternoon about a growing anxiety for the men in the office: what’s going on with their sperm?

This is the most blockchain-douche sentence that ever was.

“Tell your editor to stop being an idiot and reassign the article to a man,” he wrote in a direct message on Twitter. “Then get in touch with me.”

Or maybe it's this one.

“It went from like a graveyard to a rave,” he said. “It’s an interactive movie. You can zoom in, zoom out, you can focus in on one of the sperm and see how far it’s traveling.”

Fuck it, I give up.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:32 AM on July 26, 2018 [19 favorites]


This reminds me of a GREAT bit in a Scott Page lecture I watched online several years ago:
When I was in seventh grade and we learned how the sperm fertilized the egg, they basically played the Ride of the Valkyries and they would say 'only the fittest, strongest sperm makes it to the egg and gets to impregnate the egg.' And that was written of men, by men, for men, right? 'Cause mostly men were biologists. The reality, once we let women become biologists, is that LOTS of sperm get to the egg, and the egg sort of selects the cutest one, in a way--it's not quite that way, but it actually looks for some genetic diversity. So the thing is, even though both men and women saw the same story, saw the same pictures, those frames are different.
(Timestamp link)
posted by duffell at 7:53 AM on July 26, 2018 [24 favorites]


I always had a pretty good guess at what kind of guys were buying those testosterone supplements off of late night informercials and porn site banner ads, but it's nice to have a confirmation, I suppose.

(Is rightbro Twitter still throwing around "low T" as an insult?)
posted by tobascodagama at 7:53 AM on July 26, 2018


the sperm does not touch your phone

during the testing phase, that is
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:05 AM on July 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


He suggested I talk to Margaret Atwood, the author of “The Handmaid’s Tale,” a novel in which declining fecundity leads to authoritarianism and where sperm health is a taboo topic.

“We tend to think when there are changes, they will be small changes, but from time to time there are shifts,” he said. “Margaret Atwood could imagine if such a shift happened.”(Ms. Atwood did not return a request for comment.)
I literally laughed out loud.
posted by hanov3r at 8:07 AM on July 26, 2018 [11 favorites]


it took a year of fertility doctors for them to get him to consider that he could be the cause.

FTFY

Mrs. RKS and I experienced a brief ground stop in our path to eventual fecundity and, while I will admit that her OB-GYN gave her some of the simple drugs first, and perhaps we should have subtly altered the priorities, the possibility that the problem was not with her set was raised and discussed extremely early on.

In the article, going a year before that point was raised was either a doctor's recognition that female fertility issues are more lucrative to treat, the dude's ego, or both.
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:11 AM on July 26, 2018 [7 favorites]


I used to work for a guy who did a lot of crossfit and testosterone. Really nice, sharp guy when he wasn't raged out. He told me how the RX testosterone industry had "made the steroid scene safe." He also explained that he had to curb his usage up and down over a month to maintain a balance, and that the week or so he weaned himself off was always a harrowing time for him.

I never questioned my masculinity again after I learned that the biggest Alpha I knew was giving himself monthly hormonal periods. Dear god, I'm glad I don't work with that guy in the Trump age.
posted by es_de_bah at 8:12 AM on July 26, 2018 [15 favorites]


It just has a huge gross feel of a racist undercurrent

Wait, a bunch of creeps who worship Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro might also be racists? Say it ain't so.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:31 AM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]


I wish the NYT wasn't serving as a platform for ideas like, "women are demanding that you be considerate of others, and that is lowering your sperm count and sending you to an early grave and exterminating men."

An article about the science behind reduced sperm count? Fine. One that's woven through with a ton of pseudoscientific horseshit from misogynists? Hard pass.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 8:45 AM on July 26, 2018 [14 favorites]


An article about the science behind reduced sperm count? Fine. One that's woven through with a ton of pseudoscientific horseshit from misogynists? Hard pass.

Yeah if I'd been putting more "framing" in the FPP I might have discussed why this is an article in the Styles section rather than the Science section. I don't personally feel it's wrong to look at the attitudes because hoo boy this stuff is all about social attitudes and less on the sciencey stuff.
posted by Hypatia at 8:54 AM on July 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


Sperm tests are notoriously fickle, with counts swinging widely depending on behaviors like an evening in a hot tub or a weekend of heavy drinking.

Well, if that's what it takes for a higher sperm count, I'm out. If anyone needs me, I'll be drinking heavily in the hot tub, where I'll be enjoying myself instead of trying to quantify my masculinity.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:00 AM on July 26, 2018 [7 favorites]


“Low T”: The triumph of marketing over science

Low “T” as in “Template”: How to Sell Disease:

"...drug companies can pay for the creation of apparently objective physician or consumer education media products while obscuring or minimizing their role..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:19 AM on July 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


Anyone who unironically uses the term "Red Pill" should probably be "Yellow Pilled" (clonazepam).
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:29 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


Yeah, better framing by the author to present this as something other than a medical problem would have made for a better article. There was a bit of it present ("Ms. Atwood did not return a request for comment.") but it was quite dry and could have been clearer. Honestly, the fact that the one guy was convinced to make a couple minor lifestyle changes and revitalized his junk sort of puts lie to the whole “We may be like the Titanic approaching an iceberg” scaretalk from Dr Consulting-with-the-test-companies.

In the end I'm just glad we had our kids without wading through the crappy end of the fertility pool. There's so much stress, cost and pain there that it's hard to suggest removing any options from desperate couples, but these folks are making a case. $49 for two more test kits? Brazen grifters...
posted by Cris E at 9:31 AM on July 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


randomkeystrike: the sperm does not touch your phone

during the testing phase, that is


I’ve been quietly singing “I’m gonna jerk, jerk off right onto my phone” to the tune of “I’m Gonna Wash That Man Right Out of My Hair” from South Pacific for nearly a half hour now and I don’t care who knows it.
posted by dr_dank at 9:32 AM on July 26, 2018 [7 favorites]


So the thing is, even though both men and women saw the same story, saw the same pictures, those frames are different.

This is why I stopped watching Planet Earth 2 after the wild mustangs bit.

Fucking David Attenborough going on about how a single stallion maintains a whole herd as they search for water, until another stallion appears, and they must battle for the herd of mares, and those bitches are not loyal because they’ll just accept whatever stallion wins in this dramatic fight to the whatever.

And I’m thinking, um, that sounds an awful lot like a bunch of women just tolerating some nonsense as long as it doesn’t get in the way while they try to get stuff done, like find water?

So I looked it up, and guess fucking what.

That stallion was just a dude who followed the herd. It’s the mares who go in search of water, it’s the mares who deal with resource allocation. Of course they fuck him; he’s around. But I guarantee you they never bothered to learn his metaphorical name.

And you know what? I do not give a shit about dudes fighting! It’s boring! I’ve seen it a million times!

Show me the mean girl political alliances that determine who’s kids get water, mother fucker. Show me that Game of Thrones with Women shit.

In conclusion, fuck David Attenborough, he should know better.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:10 AM on July 26, 2018 [35 favorites]


I'm continuously floored that people still worry about personal fertility. I'm almost 100% sure it only has to do with anxiety over sexual and social prowess. I had a vasectomy at 25 and I think we should give one to every boy at 13 (not forcefully, obviously, but I think it would be a good social norm. It's 99% reversable).

Can't have kids? Adopt. Don't worry. There are enough kids.

Worried that your ability to produce sperm or transmit it has anything to do with your sex life beyond creating children? Then you're a child and you probably shouldn't have children.
posted by es_de_bah at 10:40 AM on July 26, 2018


“As we dive deep into sperm,” he said

There's a hell of a mental image...
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:46 AM on July 26, 2018


So.... I find it really interesting that they state here that "some people believe" testosterone replacement therapy will help with sperm count, because that's actually the total opposite of what my understanding of it is.

This is about to get very personal.

I had some - to be blunt, "erection issues" - in my past at way too young of an age to be associated with aging that were "diagnosed" to be low T, and I've learned a lot since then.

I want to be clear that everything that I am talking about here is specifically regarding the use of TRT as a therapy for "low testosterone" - not for other uses, such as when the body is literally not producing any testosterone at all.

Lets say one is diagnosed with "hypogonadism" - This is the classic "low T" diagnosis, but it's also associated with "low sperm count" - it's generally considered the testes not performing as they "should" based on widely varying tests. I don't think there's really a hard, clear test for it - it's largely subjective.

Testosterone replacement therapy actually supplants the need for the testes to work as hard at all, so they actually end up working LESS. Meaning - less sperm count. It is fixing a symptom - and sometimes overcorrecting it - but not the cause. So it's generally not regarded as an answer to low sperm count.

What it can be an answer to - sometimes - is the lack of physical sexual response. Of course, that's also a complicated thing that has a lot of causes, but men love looking for a technical and easy solution to a complicated problem, and I certainly was not immune to that temptation.

So the short answer to all of this for me, who was in the latter camp wasn't TRT:

- My relationship at the time was utterly broken - i was denial at the time, of course.
- Being off psych meds made things horrible for me - a condition of my former relationship (yeah, I know - I didn't know better then)

Those two things really were the bulk of my problems. Actual healthy relationship and back on psych meds? No problems.

Here's what I learned during my foray into TRT:
- Testosterone replacement is big business and is fucking expensive, and most methods aren't generally covered by insurance. We're talking at least $300/month, potentially thousands. Many of the manufacturers will cover the expense for the first few months or so. It's noteworthy that they cover it long enough that you will possibly be dependent upon it, and at best, will go through a really shitty and lengthy readjustment and withdrawal if you cease using the product.
- In addition to being a cause of low sexual response or low sperm count, Low T is seriously sold as something that will greatly shorten your life. No shit - it's "you are likely to die several years earlier." There's a lot of other "quality of life" things that are sold alongside it. It's a really hard pitch. I bought it because I was told as much by a medical professional who generally didn't seem the hard sell type. I feel dumb for this, in retrospect.
- The common methods of TRT usually involved applying a gel to myself that would cause my clothes to stick to me, and could theoretically negatively impact women who touched that skin - sticky, toxic skin is also generally counter to a healthy sexual relationship. The gels smelled, they were sticky, they sucked to use, produced a lot of waste, and based on test results as well as "personally guided performance tests" were largely not helping with the problems I was actually having.
- There was still an effect that wasn't showing up on tests, though - TRT made me an angry, angry person. Roid rage is real. It's not always made clear that this is a thing that could happen, as well. What's scary about this is that from a medical diagnosis standpoint, I wasn't taking enough. My levels were still "low". They wanted me to be on more, which given that I would literally get so mad I wouldn't sleep for a couple of days (I would lay down and just be a bright red sweaty space heater) was likely not a good thing.
- I did see suspiciously rapid results from the YMCA "boot camp" I was doing to kick my ass back into shape, but I didn't put that together until later.
- My T levels varied widely regardless on if I was on TRT or not - could be based on time of day, what the hell I ate, what I went through recently. No matter what particular brand of TRT I tried, it was inconsistent, and I tried about three different formulations.

The inconsistency, the anger, the expense, and the lack of efficacy lead to me stopping it before I was using it for too long. But I was always bothered by the fact that the tests were just all over the damned place.

Oh, and notably:

- My sperm count did significantly decline while I was on it! I didn't give a shit as I don't want kids anyways (and ended up getting a vasectomy) but it was just another part of diagnosing "teste health"

I dropped TRT before it became a "permanent lifestyle decision" - i.e. before your testes just "give up." At least that's what I was told would happen, I don't know if that's actually true. The time immediately after was not easy for me, because it just kills all sexual desire and does all sorts of weird shit to you emotionally. There is a VERY real withdrawal, and it's a very different once from - say, suddenly discontinuing psych meds. I recovered after a couple of months. Haven't looked back since, also haven't been as angry - that is, not until this particular presidential administration. But outside of being a whole other topic, I don't think that's a medical fault, I rather find that quite healthy and rational.

The only things I know for sure is that TRT for Low T is fucking expensive, it's big business, and pushed really hard as a diagnosis/solution. I'm sure that there's a legitimate need for this sort of thing for some people, but boy howdy is it pushed hard to pretty much any man who sees a doctor for anything related to sexual health, and beyond - it's pushed extremely hard for a lot of common "male" issues - be it virility (not to be confused with fertility) or just not being "man" enough based on some set of norms. And generally without a lot of due diligence - no more than a blood test, and MAYBE a semen test.

IMO, TRT is something that should go along with counseling and mental health monitoring, because it will have a lot of effects on mood - maybe positive, maybe negative, but you need to be looking at more than just the physical symptoms.

Caveats on all of this: This was my personal experience, multiple urologists were involved, and again- not applicable for every use case of TRT, just the one that's talked about in this article.


I find some irony and satisfaction that the MRAs who think that this will improve their sperm count have a good chance of being removed from the future gene pool.

I equally hope that anyone seeking fertility treatment isn't being given TRT unless it's actually something where the benefits of it make up for the likely reduced sperm count.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:56 AM on July 26, 2018 [29 favorites]


upon posting - that's quite the filibuster there, I had no idea that this would be such a wall of text in the little preview. Apologies if it's too much.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:57 AM on July 26, 2018


There was still an effect that wasn't showing up on tests, though - TRT made me an angry, angry person. Roid rage is real.

I've never been in exogenous testosterone, but I will emphatically second this. Prior to starting HRT AND eventually having GRS, I had abnormally high T. Like, an order of magnitude higher than would've been expected. Nothing has improved my life, and the life of anyone coming into contact with me, than having this dealt with as part of my transition. I was just fucking furious, all the time, always, and had no idea why. I was horrible to be around, and it was horrible to be me.

Why anyone would want that, I just don't understand. A normal hormone balance, sure. But constant seething white hot rage? Why would you do that to yourself?
posted by Dysk at 12:21 PM on July 26, 2018 [8 favorites]


The rage really was one of the largest personal factors for me stopping, I can't overstate just how much more anger I had than I thought I was capable of - and all of it on a very very short fuse.

One scary aspect to it is that it's addictive, because it's energizing in an odd way. Like, I really didn't need much sleep AT ALL because I was literally fueled by this rage, all day and night. If I could channel it into something productive, then that shit would get DONE - Probably not very well, and at the expense of something else, but it would be DONE, damn it.

So while it was energizing and addictive, it wasn't a good energizing at all. It was a very destructive force in my life. I found myself wanting to just punch random people which is so unbelievably not like me, and thankfully I realized that - but it took that realization and a nearly broken hand from punching a tile wall (note: this hurts you much more than the wall) before I put it all together.

The thing is, I am QUITE far from being a violent person under normal circumstances - like, I actually have one of those spider catcher things because I don't want to harm the spiders I relocate from my house, and use it on a regular basis.

So here's what scares me. Take the MRAs - many of whom are seeking TRT according to this article - who are already feel like it's their god given right to get laid, and are really mad that women aren't just offering themselves up to them... and then give them something that will fuel this anger by a few orders of magnitude. There's no way it's anything but a recipe for violence.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:54 PM on July 26, 2018 [12 favorites]


I'm continuously floored that people still worry about personal fertility.

From the linked article:
“There is a general feeling of ‘My God, there’s too many people in the world already, who cares?’” Dr. Swan said. “One of our answers to ‘who cares?’ is to point out men with low semen quality die earlier than other men. They have more cardiovascular disease, they have more diabetes, they have more cancer.”
--
Can't have kids? Adopt. Don't worry. There are enough kids.

So, in 2006 after trying to have a child for about a year and a half and not succeeding, my wife and I first went to a fertility clinic to see if there was something wrong. (There was, but it was not insurmountable.) Then we began looking into adoption.

Have you ever tried to adopt a child in the United States? I found the process quite complex and intimately, embarrassingly and at times offensively personal. It involves at least one and possibly more agencies and entities picking through your life in minute detail to screen your suitability to raise a child. Your life history, beliefs, health and family history, wealth and a plethora of other factors are all examined thoroughly, so strangers can confirm that you deserve to become a parent.

Such a screening process does not exist for fertile couples who want a child, of course.

My wife and I wound up going the infertility treatment route instead, Frankly, adoption would have been unlikely to be successful. In doing so, our infertility as what it was: a medical condition that could be analyzed by a reproductive endocrinologist and treated by a physician. There are many kinds of infertility conditions. Treatments exist for many of them that are not as expensive as IVF. Some may even be covered by health insurance.

Adoption is a wonderful thing. But it is not achievable for everyone.
posted by zarq at 1:45 PM on July 26, 2018 [8 favorites]


zarq, my apologies for flippancy. It's awful that adoption is made so difficult. Our culture has the cart before the horse and I have my foot in my mouth.
posted by es_de_bah at 3:10 PM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]


I had a vasectomy at 25 and I think we should give one to every boy at 13 (not forcefully, obviously, but I think it would be a good social norm. It's 99% reversible).

Type of Vasectomy Reversal / Patency Success Rate / Pregnancy Success Rate (dependent on female fertility)
Vasovasostomy / 98% / 65-75%
Vasoepididymostomy / 90% / 40-60%

Don't get me wrong, vasectomies are great and I'm happy with mine, but on the rare occasions people ask about it I tell them they shouldn't consider it a reversible procedure.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:12 PM on July 26, 2018 [2 favorites]


Dr. Swan said [.] “[...]men with low semen quality die earlier than other men. They have more cardiovascular disease, they have more diabetes, they have more cancer.”

This sounds very dubious. Men with heart disease or cancer aren’t likely to get their semen checked after diagnosis. We also don’t know how many men with low semen quality in the population don’t die earlier than other men. How on earth would we know low semen quality causes these conditions?
posted by monotreme at 3:28 PM on July 26, 2018


I'd agree that considering a vasectomy reversible is not wise.... the success rate of reversal goes down over time - sharply so after 10 years or so, it's wildly expensive and likely won't be covered, it's much more complicated, and there's a chance that the procedure will be performed with an utterly terrifying surgical robot. I'm sure that surgical robot is capable of some amazing things, but to me, it just looks like how my life could end painfully... probably worth noting that I spend a good deal of time dealing with flaky, unreliable software.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:36 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


I just had a beer before signing on to read the 'Filter, and I didn't realize for a bit this wasn't an Onion link.

the sperm does not touch your phone
That's related to a post above this one.

Shrubs, a bicycle, a Hoover, the pavement...

OK. I'm sorry. I'll be over here quietly with another beer.
posted by BlueHorse at 4:48 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


So they're worried about their precious bodily fluids?
posted by ipsative at 4:52 PM on July 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


How on earth would we know low semen quality causes these conditions?

For that matter, it seems waaaaayyyyyyyyy more likely that the arrow of causation points in the other direction.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:08 PM on July 26, 2018 [4 favorites]


Just want to poke my head in as an intersex guy who takes exogenous testosterone and has experienced the exact opposite of "roid rage" from it. I was born with two ovaries and an ovotestis and assigned female at birth. I had a high estrogen/high progesterone/modest testosterone natural hormonal balance that fluctuated a lot, and my whole life prior to the removal of my gonads at around 40 was one of what endocrinologists call "emotional lability." In real people terms, I was quick to anger--and quick to cry. In women (and I was perceived by others at the time to be one) this gets labelled "bitchiness" and "irrationality." I hated it.

All of that disappeared when my gonads were removed. I became serene, emotionally calm in any circumstances. I also lost my appetites for food and for sex and got scrawny, and slept only 4.5 hours per night.

Later, I was able to access testosterone HRT as part of my gender transition. I was worried that the emotional lability would come back, and now would be experienced as more threatening--as "rage" rather than "bitchiness." But no. My appetites returned, but I remained--and still remain--very steady-state, emotionally speaking. I don't rage, and only music really makes me cry anymore.

Testosterone is not a magic hormone of masculine power and rage. It is a sex steroid, just like estrogen and progesterone. Unstable levels of any of these cause "emotional lability." Very high levels of any of them can do the same, depending on the sensitivity of the individual's body to them (and this varies a lot). But just taking testosterone is no more emotionally dangerous than taking the Pill. Fear that testosterone therapy will turn them violent has made many trans men afraid to transition, or made friends and family try to dissuade them from it. So I do want to push back on the idea that testosterone therapy makes people crazed. I inject it weekly, and I'm much less angry than I was when full of estrogen and progesterone.

My two cents, carry on!
posted by DrMew at 5:44 PM on July 26, 2018 [13 favorites]


Yup, like with anything, it's the dose that makes the poison.
posted by Dysk at 2:27 AM on July 27, 2018 [2 favorites]


Don't get me wrong, vasectomies are great and I'm happy with mine, but on the rare occasions people ask about it I tell them they shouldn't consider it a reversible procedure.

My friend who had a vasectomy relayed something his doctor told him before he had the procedure done: "You may have heard that vasectomy is reversible. This is only the case when errors were made during the original vasectomy and it wasn't completed perfectly. Let me be clear, I will be performing this procedure correctly."

Don't think of vasectomy as reversible.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:25 AM on July 27, 2018


I definitely want to amplify your two cents there - I certainly did not want to give the idea that testosterone therapy makes people "crazed." I was trying really hard to avoid painting all cases of TRT with the same brush, and definitely thought twice about posting my experiences, because I really didn't want to marginalize anyone who is going through / has gone through a transition that would require TRT, or other cases in which TRT is well proven and highly effective. Your points are so very strong, and I am only one story - and it's definitely a different case.

All of this is to say that I'm truly sorry if I gave the impression that TRT == rage, as it's certainly not that cut and dry. I should have spoken more about the positive to balance out what I was saying, but it's a bit harder to do so from personal experience. I feel like could talk quite a bit about my experiences with other meds that tend to be demonized - but it's not remotely the same, and I don't want to be the straight-cis-white-male trying to talk over or explain, or claiming to be able to relate or understand. Thank you for bringing your experiences in to this.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:40 AM on July 27, 2018 [5 favorites]


This is a good time as any to mention that about 40 years ago my uncle took a sabbatical and spent a year in New Zealand. He was supposed to be spending the entire year there working on a problem in the beef industry. They were looking for a way to measure motility in bull semen and were trying to do that with Helium Neon lasers and measuring changes, but they weren't having any luck. He pretty much solved the problem on day 1 using a normal light source and became an overnight hero in New Zealand for an automated process for sorting bull semen.
Or so I was told.
posted by plinth at 12:05 PM on July 27, 2018 [1 favorite]


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