The amazing world of gumbo

July 29, 2018 1:01 AM

Let's start with the biggest red herring of all, the oft-repeated idea that gumbo is a variation of bouillabaisse, the classic fish stew from Provence. This notion is repeated everywhere from slapdash food blogs to peer-reviewed academic books. It's also completely wrong.

For Serious Eats Robert Moss writes about the origins of gumbo.

In a follow-up article, Moss looks at the rise of roux as a staple ingredient in gumbo and how it's largely due to one particularly influential cook and culinary writer:

"We threw out the interchangeable French menu every New Orleans restaurant had had for a million years," Ella Brennan told Tom Fitzmorris. "We replaced it with local everything." Out went the trout amandine, the original almonds and beurre noir supplanted by local pecans and a Cajun-seasoned brown sauce. The crab meat Imperial was sent to the showers, replaced by crab and corn bisque.

Perhaps the most significant change was the gumbo. "The gumbo I did at Commander's was a roux gumbo," Prudhomme told Brett Anderson of the Times-Picayune in 2005. "To my knowledge, it had never been done before. It was chicken and andouille, down-and-dirty Cajun. It was what Mama used to do." too.

posted by MartinWisse (46 comments total)

Hat tip.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:02 AM on July 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

I'd never heard of roux before. It seems like exactly what I'd like to thicken some stews.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 2:30 AM on July 29, 2018 [2 favorites]

I’ve used roux before as a base for sauces, but never thought of using it as a thickener. Makes sense, and I reckon I’ll give it a bash.
posted by pompomtom at 3:12 AM on July 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

Makes me sad most of the best looking gumbos include shrimp.

Roux is your friend. Only way to do stews.
posted by Samizdata at 4:13 AM on July 29, 2018 [3 favorites]

I know it’s not haute cuisine, but for probably 30 years I’ve used roux to thicken canned soups. Some soups are better when they’re thin, but I prefer most soups to be thicker than they are when they come out of a can. Make a little roux in the bottom of the pan before you add the soup, throw in some additional steamed veggies or cooked meat, then heat it all through, and the roux gives it a much thicker, richer quality. It’s a lowbrow stew, but I likes it. :)
posted by darkstar at 4:21 AM on July 29, 2018 [7 favorites]

So is it a choice between okra or roux as the thickener? Or do recipes use both?

When winter comes again I would love to make some good gumbo and try okra (this gives me four months to find it in New England!), if I can find a decent recipe that’s reliable for a rookie.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:26 AM on July 29, 2018 [2 favorites]

Just read the first article, and I'm a little baffled....the entire point of that article is to convince me that gumbo has an African origin, and I honestly don't think I'd ever heard otherwise. Nearly every source I've ever read about "the origin of gumbo" gives the pedigree he's giving, and I've even seen the "the word for okra is 'gombo' in different West African dialects" in those sources. When he was saying "people claim it was inspired by Bouillbaisse", my thought was, ".....who does that?"


About the making-of, now....one of the best observations I heard was: I somehow got a copy of "Nanny Ogg's Cookbook", a silly tie-in cookbook created with Terry Prachett's blessing, and when introducing the gumbo recipe "Nanny Ogg" says that "gumbo is one of those things for which it seems silly to have a recipe. You just....make it."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:58 AM on July 29, 2018 [10 favorites]

Gumbo is amazing, one of my favourite meals. I use an adaptation of Chuck's Gumbo du Monde. Properly brown roux adds a lot of flavour!
posted by Dysk at 5:02 AM on July 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

So is it a choice between okra or roux as the thickener?

Oh, that's hilarious to me. I detest okra, while roux is a combination of two of the best things (TBH until today I'd thought only butter and flour, but you can also use dripping?).

Give me some thinking music...
posted by pompomtom at 5:15 AM on July 29, 2018 [3 favorites]

Seeing the full cup of oil and flour in a gumbo recipe was very confusing to me the first time, being used to the just-cooked mother sauce style where a single table spoon can produce a full pint of thick gravy. It's genius though, the best bit on any baked thing is the toasty crust, so why not just produce a giant batch of that?
posted by lucidium at 5:47 AM on July 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

So is it a choice between okra or roux as the thickener?

Not to my knowledge. The choice is between okra and file powder. Roux is mandatory.
posted by smcameron at 5:50 AM on July 29, 2018 [9 favorites]

Okra is gross, but necessary for gumbo. Thankfully, you only need like 2 for a whole big pot, cut into 1/2" pieces so they're easy to avoid. They're too slimy to eat on their own, but the flavor and texture, when combined with roux, is what makes gumbo what it is.
posted by sexyrobot at 6:01 AM on July 29, 2018

The two articles are worth reading and tell an interesting story of the evolution of the dish from okra, to seasonal use of filé, to the current emphasis on roux and the divergence of styles between restaurant gumbo and home-cooked gumbo.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:07 AM on July 29, 2018 [2 favorites]

I always use a dark or brown roux for my gumbo but add either filé or okra for additional thickening since cooking a roux until it's dark lessens its thickening power.
posted by tommasz at 6:12 AM on July 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

I had no idea there were so many okra haters out there! Truly one of my favorite vegetables. They're really nice cut in half length-wise and then lightly pan fried or baked (I prefer pan) then served in a pile with a pinch of salt and squeeze of lemon.

It's great in soups/stews even if you aren't going for a gumbo too - just cut it in half inch slices, not lengthwise. You see it used that way in a lot of Indian cooking.
posted by backlikeclap at 6:31 AM on July 29, 2018 [10 favorites]

The origins of recipes in south Louisiana get particularly cloudy with dishes like gumbo, because there are heavy influences from both Creole (lots of African and Afro-Caribbean heritage) and Cajun (French heritage) cultures. My sense--as a native of the Cajun region--is that the overlapping origins of Gumbo are due to it ultimately being a confluence of those cuisines, one of the (many) places where they meet and overlap. And a stew-type dish is certainly a great vehicle for flexible preparation that can expand to include multiple influences.

Most great Cajun dishes start with a roux, not just gumbo but any (good) étouffée recipe, too. A great roux is key to a great dish, but a roux can be finicky, is preparation intensive, and is easy to overcook after a couple of hours of work. The real secret for the non-experts is to cook down your oil and flour in the microwave. No fooling, I have made some beautiful, nut-brown roux in the microwave. I only add a little bit of water when I transfer it to the pot, and then I cook down the vegetable holy trinity in the roux. OMG, y'all, this makes a good gumbo.

I find okra more often in gumbos that are more Creole-inflected in their preparation, most pure Cajun gumbos just use filé powder in my experience. I like both, but almost never use okra in my own gumbos.

Best cookbooks I can recommend (but only to learn how to make a decent gumbo--once you have the technique you must go off-recipe, because every great Cajun cook I've ever seen, pro or not, cooks by intuition and taste, not formulas and measurements):

Talk About Good - from the Junior League of Lafayette, Louisiana, actual family Cajun recipes

Who's Your Mama, Are You Catholic, and Can You Make a Roux? - includes Cajun and Creole dishes, in the preparation styles of Cajun cooking

River Road Recipes - from the Junior League of Baton Rouge, more great Cajun and Creole recipes, along with tips on preparation techniques generally (3 volumes available)

I love Cajun and Creole food, and love how it brings big groups of family and friends to the table.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:11 AM on July 29, 2018 [19 favorites]

mmmmmmm......red herring
posted by thelonius at 7:16 AM on July 29, 2018 [2 favorites]

You will roux the day you disrespect gumbo!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:19 AM on July 29, 2018 [3 favorites]

Also, Paul Prudhomme gets a lot of (deserved) credit for what he was doing at Commander's Palace in New Orleans, and he's an important influence on the amount of mixing between Creole and Cajun food that's occurred since. But on the Cajun side, one would be remiss not to mention two restaurants, both literally on the shore of the Atchafalaya Basin: Pat's Fisherman's Wharf and Robin's (which has recently closed, sadly). These two authentic Cajun restaurants also did much to popularize this cuisine, simply by serving down-the-bayou home cooking using premium local ingredients.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:33 AM on July 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

I had no idea there were so many okra haters out there!

I've had poorly cooked okra a few times, and there is definitely something offputting about a big serving of nothing but slimy green stuff. But cooked right, whether as a main or a supporting ingredient, okra is wonderful and I wish I had it more often.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:54 AM on July 29, 2018 [2 favorites]

It's very hard to get slimy okra in a tomato-based gumbo that has been cooking for hours. The combo of heat, acidity, and broth strips away anything remotely slimy about okra.

My mother batters and deep fries okra instead of using a roux. This, to me, is a lot of extra unpleasant work to little benefit. (And you don't get the added flavor of the toasted flour!) But if you're really leery of okra slime, high temperatures are your friend.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:24 AM on July 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

I joke that "gumbo" is cajun for "leftovers." As long as you make a roux, put in some okra and chicken stock or broth, you can put anything in there and it's delicious.
posted by straight at 8:52 AM on July 29, 2018 [2 favorites]

I had no idea the dark roux part of gumbo was such a recent addition. For me "black roux and spicy andouille" is the important part of gumbo. Nothing wrong with Prudhomme but it's a good reality check that he doesn't define creole cooking. (Indeed, his big innovation was bringing cajun flavors in to creole restaurants.)

If this kind of food interests you it's worth getting the Dooky Chase Cookbook, a monument of high quality Black creole cooking in New Orleans. Leah Chase is a national treasure and I'm glad she's finally gotten the respect she deserved. (I loved seeing her on Top Chef a few years back, she managed to even make Emeril act calm and respectful.) It's a good cookbook, very easy to work from.
posted by Nelson at 8:53 AM on July 29, 2018

I waited tables at three different restaurants (two with the same owner) during the mid-80s that were 2nd generation Prudhomme -- both had chefs trained by Prudhomme right at the beginning, around 1984. Interestingly, the lesser credentialed chef of the two was, like Prudhomme, rural, poor, Louisiana cajun. He was probably one of poor cajun kids trying to follow Prudhomme's footsteps, first in NO, then beyond.

Anyway, although I didn't cook, I was interested in most everything about the business, and I especially enjoyed learning things from observing and talking with these chefs and those they supervised. And, of course, I was a waitperson at three different trendy, pedigreed "cajun" restaurants at the height of the trend and it's essential to understand the food. Finally, it's my second-favorite cuisine.

Which is to say, Prudhomme's black roux and its preparation and centrality to gumbo is super-familiar to me. You know how chefs are, anyway, there's a mystique to things, and this was especially so with this roux, despite its apparent simplicity, mostly because of the high temperature and how easily it can go badly wrong. The roux and the gumbo were central to the day's prep.

For me, the experience of this period was both a blessing and a curse, in that, being far from NO, I was fortunate to enjoy and learn about this food just one-degree of separation away from Prudhomme. The curse is that, out in the wilderness of the American hinterlands of mid-sized cities and such, almost every other example of this trendy cuisine was, and still is, just terribly disappointing.

Gumbos are so flexible and, as these two pieces make clear, have such a long and broad history before Prudhomme's influence, that there are so many different ways to do it right. It's not too difficult to find satisfying gumbo. The large variance is, really, intrinsic. Don't almost all cuisines have some basic, hearty stew that's nevertheless very flexible in its ingredients?

Blackened redfish (and "blackening" generally) was, as far as I know, pure innovation by Prudhomme with no obvious antecedent. It's often derided as inauthentic and popular only because of novelty. But basically no one else, in my experience, does it even remotely right. Which is a shame because when it's properly prepared it's really great. (Don't ever ask me to prep redfish, though, or even watch.)

I'm not even slightly trained in cooking and don't even rise to the modest level of aspiring, self-described "foodie". I just enjoy eating good food and take some interest in its history.

What I really want, right this moment, is a huge plate of a really good crawfish etouffee.

Talking about this food is like torture, I love it so much while being unavailable to me.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:10 AM on July 29, 2018 [11 favorites]

Definitely makes me curious to try a gumbo thickened with okra and file and no roux.
posted by kafziel at 11:37 AM on July 29, 2018

I honestly don't think I've ever had a "thick" gumbo. Most of the time I'm making a gumbo z'herbes, and then when I have leftovers I dole it out and make other "gumbos" by heating a portion of the leftovers up with a meat of my choice. A couple years back I did a whole cajun thing for my birthday and had both gumbo z'herbes and a vegetable dish that was stewed tomatoes and okra, and threw the leftovers for them both together and used that as "gumbo base" for subsequent dinners.

One thing I will say that bouillebaisse and gumbo have in common is that they started out as "a stew that can adapt to whatever meat we happen to be lucky enough to get" kind of thing, so I like the flexibility of "I need to clean out the fridge....oh hey, I know, that leftover shrimp, I'll throw that in this time."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:20 PM on July 29, 2018

This discussion has me thinking about how to make a Pacific-northwest style gumbo. I guess what I'd end up doing is start with a good gumbo recipe, but since fresh okra seems to be hard to find here (Portland OR) I'd have to rely on filé powder to thicken it. I'd also leave out the chicken (I'd use my own homemade stock instead), and cut back somewhat on the andouille sausage in favor of the seafood ingredients from a typical cioppino recipe. Man, now I'm hungry...
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:52 PM on July 29, 2018

Greg_Ace, Fubonn on 82nd often has okra. Winco carries it, too, when it’s in season. We live in Albany and have found it at various places, though it’s more serendipitous than consistent. Anytime we find fresh okra, dinner plans change.
posted by malthusan at 2:09 PM on July 29, 2018 [3 favorites]

of course, no internet discussion of gumbo would be complete without the Disney travesty of 2016
posted by eustatic at 6:59 PM on July 29, 2018

I grew in the Lafayette area, and I only know a few people who use okra in their gumbo. I certainly don’t. My mama uses a roux, so that’s what I use, as dark as Dick Cheney’s soul.
posted by wintermind at 7:05 PM on July 29, 2018 [4 favorites]

of course, no internet discussion of gumbo would be complete without the Disney travesty of 2016

Oh my goodness gracious me. I found a more intact version of it, this is ... monstrous.
posted by kafziel at 7:30 PM on July 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

the Disney travesty of 2016

That just ain't right.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:32 PM on July 29, 2018

> malthusan:
"Greg_Ace, Fubonn on 82nd often has okra. Winco carries it, too, when it’s in season. We live in Albany and have found it at various places, though it’s more serendipitous than consistent. Anytime we find fresh okra, dinner plans change."

You WOULD change dinner based on availability, wouldn't you...
posted by Samizdata at 8:38 PM on July 29, 2018

FWIW in Gujarati cuisine theres a dish where diced okra is pan-fried with spices until slightly crispy. Very moreish & also very simple.
posted by phigmov at 10:51 PM on July 29, 2018 [3 favorites]

There used to be a place in town that had the most amazing spicy fried chicken. More so it had the most amazing fried okra. Crispy, savory, with the okra flavor sneaking out from around the savory breading to happily surprise your tongue.

But it closed. And I quest for another such okra. Fruitlessly, like Parsival for the Grail, but in a gritty, grimdark modern reboot.
posted by Samizdata at 11:57 PM on July 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

FWIW in Gujarati cuisine theres a dish where diced okra is pan-fried with spices until slightly crispy. Very moreish & also very simple.


Oh, that sounds fantastic — I could go for a dish right now!
posted by darkstar at 12:12 AM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]

Oh, that sounds fantastic — I could go for a dish right now!

Might be a generic Indian dish - I've never seen it in any western 'Indian' restaurant tho'.
My mum tought me to make it as it was so straightforward - just need to be careful to avoid it being gluggy by using a cloth to soak up the moisture post dicing and using the spices to dust the pieces when they go into the pan with some crushed garlic and a little salt to taste. Even I couldn't screw that up.

Oh, found a similar recipe online - Okra is Bhinda
posted by phigmov at 12:39 AM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]

You WOULD change dinner based on availability, wouldn't you...

Yep. My husband’s from Georgia, so fresh okra means fried okra. We might have whatever else was planned or we might not.

He’s made gumbo before — we still have some in the freezer — but he makes no claim to authenticity. I think he used a Tasty recipe. Heh.
posted by malthusan at 1:50 AM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]

Here’s a pretty good 5-minute video on how to make the different shades of roux (white, blonde, brown and black).
posted by darkstar at 2:52 AM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]

When he was saying "people claim it was inspired by Bouillbaisse", my thought was, ".....who does that?"

Academics who aren't familiar with the culture the Cajuns came from (viz. largely French Canadians) have done this (a lot). Bouillabaisse as it existed in France historically is very different then anything the Canadian French ate. The closest thing we eat to gumbo would be fricot, while not the same, (okra & filé & peppers would have been unknown to the Canadians) it is at least a kissing cousin as compared to bouillabaisse.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:21 AM on July 30, 2018 [2 favorites]

> When he was saying "people claim it was inspired by Bouillbaisse", my thought was, ".....who does that?"

Academics who aren't familiar with the culture the Cajuns came from (viz. largely French Canadians) have done this (a lot).

I didn't phrase my question well, apologies; where would this claim have been published?

If it was just in academic circles, that would explain my never having heard it before. I don't get all that scholarly about food; eating it tends to tell me enough. ;-)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:24 AM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]

Oxford American tracks it back to 1933. It sounds like a lot of thinking about Louisiana customer is influenced by speculation and a somewhat garbled oral tradition. It's not surprising that a bunch of white elites would prefer to think their influences came from France instead of Africa (or even Canada).
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:38 AM on July 30, 2018 [2 favorites]

I don't have anything on hand as I am at work but I've seen it presented as such in academic works on the subject by white elites as grandiloquiet says (I'd add Protestant Anglophones to that as well). It is important to note as well that until relatively recently Cajun food has been looked down upon for a variety of reasons (associated with Africans, poor people, Catholics, French speakers, etc... etc...)
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:20 AM on July 30, 2018 [2 favorites]

I've become a big fan of dry roux - in gumbo, creole, and any other soup that could use some thickening darkness. It's the flexibility I love - I keep a jar in the fridge and just sift it in when and as needed.
posted by ersatzjef at 8:35 PM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]

I've become a big fan of dry roux

Interesting. We use a somewhat similar product (no or little fat is in it) that is ready made - toasted flour for our various ragoût.
posted by Ashwagandha at 7:13 AM on July 31, 2018

I've become a big fan of dry roux -

Wait, am I reading the recipe wrong or is that fat-free roux?
posted by straight at 4:55 PM on July 31, 2018 [1 favorite]