"It's a pity you don't have a white character"
August 2, 2018 9:31 AM Subscribe
"When they do screenings, a lot of Asian-American people have this overwhelming urge to cry. And they don't know exactly why." Crazy Rich Asians releases August 15 in theaters!
It has taken a rapid succession of undeniable hits — Hidden Figures, Get Out, Girls Trip, Black Panther — for Hollywood to warm to the concept that culturally specific stories can lure wide audiences by offering novel takes on well-worn genres. "When people get to see either themselves on screen or fresh faces who aren't the same old lineup, reshuffled, we're seeing breakout success," says Jacobson. Still, the creatives behind Crazy Rich Asians know that the marketability and near-future prospects of an entire community's body of work likely hinge on their perceived success or failure. "We can sugarcoat it all we want, but the moment you bring up an Asian-led movie, there's one example to point to, and that'll be us," says Chu. "To be on the biggest stage with the biggest stakes, that's what we asked for."
Previously on MetaFilter
It has taken a rapid succession of undeniable hits — Hidden Figures, Get Out, Girls Trip, Black Panther — for Hollywood to warm to the concept that culturally specific stories can lure wide audiences by offering novel takes on well-worn genres. "When people get to see either themselves on screen or fresh faces who aren't the same old lineup, reshuffled, we're seeing breakout success," says Jacobson. Still, the creatives behind Crazy Rich Asians know that the marketability and near-future prospects of an entire community's body of work likely hinge on their perceived success or failure. "We can sugarcoat it all we want, but the moment you bring up an Asian-led movie, there's one example to point to, and that'll be us," says Chu. "To be on the biggest stage with the biggest stakes, that's what we asked for."
Previously on MetaFilter
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble
Is there still that much cache in getting seen in theaters versus at home?
Yes. There's a reason that even Netflix has done limited theatrical releases to qualify movies for the Oscars.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:00 AM on August 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yes. There's a reason that even Netflix has done limited theatrical releases to qualify movies for the Oscars.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:00 AM on August 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
I liked Oceans 8 but I thought Awkwafina was massively under-utilized in that film. Constance Wu is a national treasure. I'm hoping for big success for this one.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:11 AM on August 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 10:11 AM on August 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
My interest hinges on how much screen time Awkwafina is getting in this film, and if her cat gets a cameo in it.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 10:34 AM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by lefty lucky cat at 10:34 AM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Is there still that much cache in getting seen in theaters versus at home? I ask because I honestly have no idea because I'm pretty much out of the loop about media trends.
AV Club had a great article on the problems of the Netflix rollout strategy. With so much friggin content, individual projects end up gasping for air. I'm guessing this film's creators had the same opinion.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 10:40 AM on August 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
AV Club had a great article on the problems of the Netflix rollout strategy. With so much friggin content, individual projects end up gasping for air. I'm guessing this film's creators had the same opinion.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 10:40 AM on August 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Oh fuck that is a wild opener. I love that they took the wild gamble instead of the safe choice - yet another way this movie says fuck you to what we expect of Asians.
I was thinking about all this this morning while picking a book to read. My mom bought me Karen Tei Yamashita's National Book Award finalist I Hotel for my birthday, a structurally inventive novel about the Yellow Power movement, but it's a brick and I'm not up to it at the moment so I opted for John Okada's No No Boy (an old novel about a Japanese American who resisted the camps, beloved by the same ethnic studies set that celebrates I Hotel) instead. I've been Instagramming my reading lists lately and I played with the idea of sticking one of those next to Crazy Rich Asians and being all "Get you a girl who can do both." Because it's not either or.
Does anyone remember those two Asian American chick lit novels that came out in the 2000s, by Kim Wong Keltner? The Dim Sum of All Things and Buddha Baby, I think they were. I tried to read one of them and I got a couple chapters in before I couldn't stand any more of the main character talking about her Hello Kitty underwear and her burning desire for white men. They were so bad, yall. (I flipped through the rest and there was an actual diarrhea scene - WHY?!) I read my Sophie Kinsella and my Marian Keyes and I enjoy them but sometimes you get slapped upside the head with a character like the love interest's trashy half-Vietnamese ex-girlfriend in Sushi for Beginners (with the main character's racist internal monologue about her, as an extra treat) and you're like, WELP I GUESS BACK TO READING ABOUT THE INTERNMENT CAMPS. But the Crazy Rich Asians series gave me an Asian story with fashion and fun and heartthrobs and villains.
"Wu convinced Chu to remove dialogue from the book wherein Rachel boasts about never dating Asian men." - GOD BLESS THIS WOMAN
(I also love that this is next to the post about eating the rich. Most of the characters in Crazy Rich Asians deserve to be eaten.)
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:04 AM on August 2, 2018 [25 favorites]
I was thinking about all this this morning while picking a book to read. My mom bought me Karen Tei Yamashita's National Book Award finalist I Hotel for my birthday, a structurally inventive novel about the Yellow Power movement, but it's a brick and I'm not up to it at the moment so I opted for John Okada's No No Boy (an old novel about a Japanese American who resisted the camps, beloved by the same ethnic studies set that celebrates I Hotel) instead. I've been Instagramming my reading lists lately and I played with the idea of sticking one of those next to Crazy Rich Asians and being all "Get you a girl who can do both." Because it's not either or.
Does anyone remember those two Asian American chick lit novels that came out in the 2000s, by Kim Wong Keltner? The Dim Sum of All Things and Buddha Baby, I think they were. I tried to read one of them and I got a couple chapters in before I couldn't stand any more of the main character talking about her Hello Kitty underwear and her burning desire for white men. They were so bad, yall. (I flipped through the rest and there was an actual diarrhea scene - WHY?!) I read my Sophie Kinsella and my Marian Keyes and I enjoy them but sometimes you get slapped upside the head with a character like the love interest's trashy half-Vietnamese ex-girlfriend in Sushi for Beginners (with the main character's racist internal monologue about her, as an extra treat) and you're like, WELP I GUESS BACK TO READING ABOUT THE INTERNMENT CAMPS. But the Crazy Rich Asians series gave me an Asian story with fashion and fun and heartthrobs and villains.
"Wu convinced Chu to remove dialogue from the book wherein Rachel boasts about never dating Asian men." - GOD BLESS THIS WOMAN
(I also love that this is next to the post about eating the rich. Most of the characters in Crazy Rich Asians deserve to be eaten.)
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:04 AM on August 2, 2018 [25 favorites]
I saw the trailer for the first time this week when I went to see another movie, and it looks so great and fun and the rom-com I need in my life right now (is it just me, or has the rom-com been neglected ? I'm glad they didn't go the Netflix route because people would assume it's another one of those terrible rom-coms that Netflix keeps putting out, which makes me mad because it's a genre that deserves just as much respect as the next beat'em'up, shoot'em'up, bang films but is dismissed as pointless fluff and not raunchy enough for modern comedy. We hopeless romantics have money to spend too, y'know! Anyway, I digress).
I'm also excited for this because Constance Wu is everything and now I want her to be the modern Julia Roberts and herald this new era of rom-coms that I'm apparently desperate for. I'm already trying to figure out if I can get off work in time to catch the late afternoon showing on 8/15.
Even though I'm not Asian, I do a lot work with Asian media and therefore have a lot of As-Am/Can friends/acquaintances/coworkers, so I'm really hoping this does well because I strongly believe representation matters and I want this to be the start of something awesome in Hollywood where I won't groan in annoyance at news of more whitewashing or the zillionth casting news of some generic white bread boy that looks like all the other generic white bread boys (and is probably named Chris) being the lead in yet another blockbuster-y film.
posted by paisley sheep at 11:23 AM on August 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm also excited for this because Constance Wu is everything and now I want her to be the modern Julia Roberts and herald this new era of rom-coms that I'm apparently desperate for. I'm already trying to figure out if I can get off work in time to catch the late afternoon showing on 8/15.
Even though I'm not Asian, I do a lot work with Asian media and therefore have a lot of As-Am/Can friends/acquaintances/coworkers, so I'm really hoping this does well because I strongly believe representation matters and I want this to be the start of something awesome in Hollywood where I won't groan in annoyance at news of more whitewashing or the zillionth casting news of some generic white bread boy that looks like all the other generic white bread boys (and is probably named Chris) being the lead in yet another blockbuster-y film.
posted by paisley sheep at 11:23 AM on August 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
That's a deep cut interview. We're friendly with a branch of the Chef Chu family. Another of our friends had her not-dissimilar book bought for a boatload of cash in the wake of CRA. There's definitely something in the air.
It's a little weird that the Asian/Asian-American stories the American media are ready to tell center on wealth (i.e. - "they're just like us white people!"), but I know the score - it's got to start somewhere. People in my life are hopeful for CRA sequels, because the side-characters get their own crazy storylines.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 11:31 AM on August 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's a little weird that the Asian/Asian-American stories the American media are ready to tell center on wealth (i.e. - "they're just like us white people!"), but I know the score - it's got to start somewhere. People in my life are hopeful for CRA sequels, because the side-characters get their own crazy storylines.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 11:31 AM on August 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I genuinely don't have much time to catch movies in the theaters or I would make it out to see this. Constance Wu is an absolute treasure and one of the most endearing reasons why Fresh Off the Boat is a great comedy (recently renewed + syndicated, woot woot!). I'll be hoping the best for this film, and as a fellow child born of Richmond, praying it helps to launch Wu's career even higher.
posted by Atreides at 12:56 PM on August 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Atreides at 12:56 PM on August 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
The books themselves are trash, and while they're initially trash in a fun, enjoyable sense, as the books develop, it becomes pretty clear that they're actual, morally and objectively terrible. The writing is technically woeful, and like, one of the later books opens with a playboy crashing his fancy foreign car, and killing one woman who was in the car with him, and seriously injuring another, and his whole plot in the book revolves around his manpain TO THE POINT WHERE IIRC YOU DON'T EVEN FIND OUT THE NAME OF THE WOMAN HIS RECKLESSNESS KILLED AND AT THE END OF THE BOOK HE IS COMPLETELY FORGIVEN AND EXONERATED???????
Throw in the Asian-on-Asian racism, not to mention the 50-Shades-of-Grey style misogyny, and by the time I got to book three, I soured so much on the whole series that I wasn't going to see the movie.
But hearing that Wu may have been able to tone down some of the nonsense makes me feel somewhat better, and the fact that they cast Yeoh and then adjusted the tone of the reconciliation with Wu's character -- I might actually go see this in the movie theater.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:17 PM on August 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Throw in the Asian-on-Asian racism, not to mention the 50-Shades-of-Grey style misogyny, and by the time I got to book three, I soured so much on the whole series that I wasn't going to see the movie.
But hearing that Wu may have been able to tone down some of the nonsense makes me feel somewhat better, and the fact that they cast Yeoh and then adjusted the tone of the reconciliation with Wu's character -- I might actually go see this in the movie theater.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:17 PM on August 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
(nb: I only read book 1)
It's a little weird that the Asian/Asian-American stories the American media are ready to tell center on wealth
I've observed the opposite - American media loves stories of Asian suffering. Every story about Asian-Americans is about dirt-poor immigrants, discrimination, and/or kids fighting their parents because of "culture clash". More generally, every story involves reconciling an identity crisis. And it's true a lot of Asians have this experience - I'm not saying these stories shouldn't be told, and I've personally loved some of them - but they present a single story.
I found CRA refreshing because for once, the conflict hinges not on Asianness, but class. Nick's mother is suspicious of Rachel, not because she's American, but because her family is poor. Rachel also gets along well with her mother and even speaks fluent Chinese - when they finally come into conflict, it has nothing to do with culture.
I'm not close to crazy rich, but I recognized the world that CRA describes, because in it, Asians are unmarked. I see CRA's avoidance of the usual tropes not as an attempt to make it more palatable to white audiences, but the opposite - white audiences expect difference.
***
I'm really happy Constance Wu was cast as Rachel! She's a great comedic actress and her image is also spot on - she's American through-and-through. There's a bit in one of the clips floating around, during the sequence where word spreads that Nick has a girlfriend, where one of the messages popping up is "she looks so ABC" - and I laughed because it's precisely the kind of comment I have heard my friends make so many times when judging someone's new SO...
posted by airmail at 1:23 PM on August 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
It's a little weird that the Asian/Asian-American stories the American media are ready to tell center on wealth
I've observed the opposite - American media loves stories of Asian suffering. Every story about Asian-Americans is about dirt-poor immigrants, discrimination, and/or kids fighting their parents because of "culture clash". More generally, every story involves reconciling an identity crisis. And it's true a lot of Asians have this experience - I'm not saying these stories shouldn't be told, and I've personally loved some of them - but they present a single story.
I found CRA refreshing because for once, the conflict hinges not on Asianness, but class. Nick's mother is suspicious of Rachel, not because she's American, but because her family is poor. Rachel also gets along well with her mother and even speaks fluent Chinese - when they finally come into conflict, it has nothing to do with culture.
I'm not close to crazy rich, but I recognized the world that CRA describes, because in it, Asians are unmarked. I see CRA's avoidance of the usual tropes not as an attempt to make it more palatable to white audiences, but the opposite - white audiences expect difference.
***
I'm really happy Constance Wu was cast as Rachel! She's a great comedic actress and her image is also spot on - she's American through-and-through. There's a bit in one of the clips floating around, during the sequence where word spreads that Nick has a girlfriend, where one of the messages popping up is "she looks so ABC" - and I laughed because it's precisely the kind of comment I have heard my friends make so many times when judging someone's new SO...
posted by airmail at 1:23 PM on August 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
It's pretty weird that no one in the trailers have Singaporean accents.
posted by ejoey at 2:17 PM on August 2, 2018
posted by ejoey at 2:17 PM on August 2, 2018
It's pretty weird that no one in the trailers have Singaporean accents.
Michelle Yeoh in the original trailer had a Singaporean accent - I think actually all the characters in the original trailer had accents that were authentic to the class of Singaporeans they were playing. Newest trailer/clip has more "typical" Singaporean accents. I've been wondering how understandable the accent is to a purely American audience.
(So happy they really cast genuine Singaporean veteran actors for the movie btw!! It's surreal to watch that clip and see 1) my country's accents in a Hollywood movie 2) local Singaporean actors, some of whom I've worked with/known, in a Hollywood movie playing Singaporean characters.)
posted by aielen at 3:26 PM on August 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Michelle Yeoh in the original trailer had a Singaporean accent - I think actually all the characters in the original trailer had accents that were authentic to the class of Singaporeans they were playing. Newest trailer/clip has more "typical" Singaporean accents. I've been wondering how understandable the accent is to a purely American audience.
(So happy they really cast genuine Singaporean veteran actors for the movie btw!! It's surreal to watch that clip and see 1) my country's accents in a Hollywood movie 2) local Singaporean actors, some of whom I've worked with/known, in a Hollywood movie playing Singaporean characters.)
posted by aielen at 3:26 PM on August 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm so excited about this. The trailer is one of the best I've seen in a long time, and got me to finally read the first book, which, yes, toes the line a bit between satirizing and lionizing a culture, but is a lot of fun. Kind of reminded me of a cross between Jane Austen and the Real Housewives. The second book was not quite as good, but I'm still excited for the movie.
posted by lunasol at 4:27 PM on August 2, 2018
posted by lunasol at 4:27 PM on August 2, 2018
I said this in the previous thread, and I'll say it again. It's great that a major studio is pushing a film with an (almost) all-Asian cast and production, but wouldn't it be great if we were at the point that the film could simply be titled Crazy Rich?
posted by zardoz at 4:40 PM on August 2, 2018
posted by zardoz at 4:40 PM on August 2, 2018
This is a great article about representation and film, and it is shameful that this is the first film since the Joy Luck Club in 1993.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:14 PM on August 2, 2018
posted by Dip Flash at 5:14 PM on August 2, 2018
Michelle Yeoh in the original trailer had a Singaporean accent
Lol no. She has many talents but shaking off that Anglo-school-in-Ipoh-Malaysia-by-way-of-Hong-Kong accent is not one of them. She'll sound Malaysian as a Taiwanese in the Soong Sisters, Malaysian as a Filipina in Sunshine, and Malaysian here too.
I've said my piece in the previous posts. On the note above, just how many Malaysians are involved in this thing anyway? I lost it when I read in TFA even the co-writer is Malaysian.
posted by cendawanita at 10:42 PM on August 2, 2018
Lol no. She has many talents but shaking off that Anglo-school-in-Ipoh-Malaysia-by-way-of-Hong-Kong accent is not one of them. She'll sound Malaysian as a Taiwanese in the Soong Sisters, Malaysian as a Filipina in Sunshine, and Malaysian here too.
I've said my piece in the previous posts. On the note above, just how many Malaysians are involved in this thing anyway? I lost it when I read in TFA even the co-writer is Malaysian.
posted by cendawanita at 10:42 PM on August 2, 2018
cendawanita: yea ok, her accent sounds a bit more Malaysian than Singaporean - but honestly, both accents are extremely similar and I think only Singaporeans and Malaysians can differentiate between the two accents (and even then many can't - saying this as a Msian from SG with family on both sides of the causeway). Her intonations are basically the same; she seems to mumble a bit but I think that's more a Michelle Yeoh thing than a Malaysian thing. 53 years isn't that long!
re other Malaysians involved... there are at least 2 other Malaysians in prominent supporting roles (Constance Lau and another actress, as conniving socialites trying to sabotage Constance Wu). Also Ronny Chieng if you count him as Malaysian (but he also went to school in SG I believe, and he was previously based in Australia). You could even count Tan Kheng Hua who has Malaysian grandparents :P I think the older generation across both countries tends to sound a lot more similar in accent whereas you could probably identify more differences in accent (between the 2 countries) within the younger generations.
posted by aielen at 1:56 AM on August 3, 2018
re other Malaysians involved... there are at least 2 other Malaysians in prominent supporting roles (Constance Lau and another actress, as conniving socialites trying to sabotage Constance Wu). Also Ronny Chieng if you count him as Malaysian (but he also went to school in SG I believe, and he was previously based in Australia). You could even count Tan Kheng Hua who has Malaysian grandparents :P I think the older generation across both countries tends to sound a lot more similar in accent whereas you could probably identify more differences in accent (between the 2 countries) within the younger generations.
posted by aielen at 1:56 AM on August 3, 2018
lol nw, i mean, Chieng in TFA is right, literally when else are they getting a chance to have their accent to be the 'right' one? (ok ok Michelle Yeoh still managed to swing her Trek role into being a Malaysian one hahaha). But her accent nowadays really has more of that atas HK-er as well, they all just lucked out they got this project and for once her accent's actually period and region-accurate.
Still, idk, as a Malaysian I can find it funny, but don't you think it's a bit "dot dot dot" that in the end, how much Singapore just became window dressing and costuming? still, at least that other teaser clip seemed to show more Singaporean/Malaysian accents (which then put to lie the rationalisation that everyone's having class-appropriate atas Anglo accents -- which even early on doesn't make sense because atas quasi-American accents meant that those elite Singaporeans and Malaysians I know speak like they're upper crust east coast Americans not from some urban part of midwest Michigan) even if I can spot that KL skyline even through the background blur.
ANYWAY, I KNOW, I'M NITPICKING. I just wish people in general would just roll with the points raised without trying to twist themselves trying to defend a frothy good time.
posted by cendawanita at 2:15 AM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Still, idk, as a Malaysian I can find it funny, but don't you think it's a bit "dot dot dot" that in the end, how much Singapore just became window dressing and costuming? still, at least that other teaser clip seemed to show more Singaporean/Malaysian accents (which then put to lie the rationalisation that everyone's having class-appropriate atas Anglo accents -- which even early on doesn't make sense because atas quasi-American accents meant that those elite Singaporeans and Malaysians I know speak like they're upper crust east coast Americans not from some urban part of midwest Michigan) even if I can spot that KL skyline even through the background blur.
ANYWAY, I KNOW, I'M NITPICKING. I just wish people in general would just roll with the points raised without trying to twist themselves trying to defend a frothy good time.
posted by cendawanita at 2:15 AM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
I enjoyed the book as a frothy silly poolside read. But I'm glad the article got into how the approach and script may have been adapted because I don't think I would have appreciated the book being literally turned into a movie. I'm really looking forward to watching this now.
posted by like_neon at 3:45 AM on August 3, 2018
posted by like_neon at 3:45 AM on August 3, 2018
Yeah, the casting and these buzzy stories actually make me want to see the movie, whereas I was hestant to pick up the book. In other words:
Wu-Yeoh? Yo, woooo!
posted by pykrete jungle at 7:12 AM on August 3, 2018
Wu-Yeoh? Yo, woooo!
posted by pykrete jungle at 7:12 AM on August 3, 2018
I have accepted that my theater career didn't ever build to the point I could permanently live off it, because it still lets me get away with saying things like this:
I can say from personal experience, after working with her on a show in 2006, that Constance Wu legitimately is 100% as awesome in real life as you probably hope for.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:09 AM on August 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
I can say from personal experience, after working with her on a show in 2006, that Constance Wu legitimately is 100% as awesome in real life as you probably hope for.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:09 AM on August 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
I remember seeing this on mefi before, but can't seem to find it searching Google. Anyway, Kirsten Han sums up my apprehensions towards this movie: Why ‘Crazy Rich Asians’ Isn’t Really A Win For Diverse Representation
I'm glad that there's a Hollywood movie with a full (East) Asian cast, but I kind of wish they didn't need to stereotype and misrepresent my country while doing so.
posted by destrius at 8:16 AM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm glad that there's a Hollywood movie with a full (East) Asian cast, but I kind of wish they didn't need to stereotype and misrepresent my country while doing so.
posted by destrius at 8:16 AM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Representation of Asians in American film is sorely needed for Asian-Americans. It's less needed for Asians in Asia. Diverse representation helps lots of people, but it helps those who are minorities in their culture the most.
Representation of people as a whole, and not as stereotypes, is much more what I'm concerned with than the representation of a particular nation-state's complexity. Kirsten Han's critiques that (a) she doesn't really need Crazy Rich Asians for representation and (b) CRA doesn't really show off Singapore, seem baside the point of what the movie means in America. As she points out herself, Chinese people are pretty much the *last* ethnic group in Singapore to need more representation.
posted by pykrete jungle at 8:53 AM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Representation of people as a whole, and not as stereotypes, is much more what I'm concerned with than the representation of a particular nation-state's complexity. Kirsten Han's critiques that (a) she doesn't really need Crazy Rich Asians for representation and (b) CRA doesn't really show off Singapore, seem baside the point of what the movie means in America. As she points out herself, Chinese people are pretty much the *last* ethnic group in Singapore to need more representation.
posted by pykrete jungle at 8:53 AM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's cool, people at this side of the world is very aware which market this movie wants to serve, but also in true American film industry fashion, in which other markets it wants to profit in. I've said it before, just be explicit that this is for Asian-American representation, and TFA is pretty much in that vein. But Han isn't just talking about Chinese Singaporeans needing no more representation, she's also talking about the systematic discrimination and erasure non-Chinese Singaporeans face in their cultural representation that is being loaned wholesale to Americans hunting for their own representation. That's no solidarity. Especially when Asian Asians has spent so much effort amongst ourselves advocating why Western Asians need representation because it's us that provides cover when NYT and the like comes knocking asking for a hot take why Asians in Asia don't find it a big deal. And even that is a dangerous and erasing statement to make. The assumption that Asians in Asia don't suffer from problems of representation is why every new episode of this discourse is messed up and continually talking past one another. Do you think ethnic minorities don't exist outside of the west? Do you imagine us Asians are so good at being inclusive? This particular country at that, who's not had a change in govt since its independence?
Anyway that's been covered in the previous thread.
posted by cendawanita at 9:20 AM on August 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
Anyway that's been covered in the previous thread.
posted by cendawanita at 9:20 AM on August 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
And for additional tangential context about this whole 'asians in asia don't suffer as much in terms of representation' : Summary: diaspora Asians are way more affected by whitewashing than Asians in Asia, and yes, the practice of citing Asians in Asia as “not bothered” in order to speak over diaspora Asians are always motivated by perpetual foreigner racist bullshit. But it’s good to keep in mind that some Asians in Asia have problems with whitewashing too.
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 AM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 AM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
oh god enough of the whole 'asians in asia are a monolith' thing oyyy (self-link, written after fifty billion rants about this topic again)
New ish trailer brought in the Singapore, which is good, that was severely missing from the original trailer.
Ronny Chieng is from JB, next door to Singapore. (So am I; I find that Singaporeans figure out I'm Malaysian when Malaysians don't believe me - I think their thinking is "you sound like me but not quite). Henry Goulding is half-Iban, which is an Indigenous group from Sarawak.
posted by divabat at 4:25 AM on August 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
New ish trailer brought in the Singapore, which is good, that was severely missing from the original trailer.
Ronny Chieng is from JB, next door to Singapore. (So am I; I find that Singaporeans figure out I'm Malaysian when Malaysians don't believe me - I think their thinking is "you sound like me but not quite). Henry Goulding is half-Iban, which is an Indigenous group from Sarawak.
posted by divabat at 4:25 AM on August 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
that Constance Wu legitimately is 100% as awesome in real life as you probably hope for
This is not helping the hopeless crush situation, but carry on
posted by schadenfrau at 6:15 AM on August 5, 2018
This is not helping the hopeless crush situation, but carry on
posted by schadenfrau at 6:15 AM on August 5, 2018
just saw this article on the red carpet premiere. alamak selena tan is dressed as a coconut tree.
posted by aielen at 11:14 AM on August 8, 2018
posted by aielen at 11:14 AM on August 8, 2018
A few more guests and looks here.
I am living for Gemma Chan and Constance Lau's looks.
posted by like_neon at 3:19 AM on August 9, 2018
I am living for Gemma Chan and Constance Lau's looks.
posted by like_neon at 3:19 AM on August 9, 2018
Lolol very goth coconut tree.
Happy National Day, Singaporeans!
posted by cendawanita at 6:39 AM on August 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Happy National Day, Singaporeans!
posted by cendawanita at 6:39 AM on August 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hey, Asian Americans, can you come and collect your people on Twitter? I follow Singaporean journalist Kirsten Han, and she keeps being bothered by Azn-Ams who's upset that she's not entirely too happy with the representation in CRA.
posted by cendawanita at 7:09 PM on August 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 7:09 PM on August 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ugh. I'm sorry this is happening (not in the sense of personally apologizing, but just regretful that people are being boneheaded). I hope if anything all this will be eye-opening for other Asian Americans the way it has been for me. I think (tell me if I'm wrong) there's not really a way to tell this particular story without it being Chinese-centric and exoticizing Singapore, and that the problem is that Asian Americans are insisting that that doesn't matter because we get what we want (an ensemble Asian cast in a Hollywood movie). And I wish people could acknowledge that we can celebrate it for what it gives to us and also listen to the criticisms. We're so, so defensive, and I understand that to some extent but I think we lack a certain perspective when it comes to film representation. (Like I've heard plenty of Asian Americans, mostly men, say in all seriousness that Asians have it worse than black people in the US because at least they're looked up to in pop culture. Those people are not on "my side" politically, but it's a thing you hear and it's like, dude, get a grip.) It's difficult to overstate how blind we can be to concerns other than our own. (I mean, we are American.)
I also feel like I'm guilty of wanting to have my cake and eat it too by thoughtfully listening to all the critiques and then still running out to see the movie.
I saw it Wednesday night - AMC did a prerelease screening as a "Girls Night Out" thing. It was completely sold out. I didn't get my free wine glass and they stuck it way up on the 7th floor where it was hot as hell, the concession stand was closed and the escalators were out of service, and I'm a little salty about that. I doubt any other movie showing that night sold half the tickets CRA did, so do they always stick hotly anticipated prerelease films up in the neglected area, or only when there are no white people in it? Juuuuust asking.
But but but, it was SO GOOD. Fashiony and frivolous and full of shiny things. I knew I would love the cast and the fashion, but things that surprised me by how much they moved me: The music. (Hell if I knew what it was or what they were saying, but to hear Chinese-language music used as regular soundtrack music and not just to establish This Scene is Set in an Exotic Location. I realize that is the most American thing I could say, and I stand by it.) The camera lingering lovingly over mahjong tiles or dumplings. I knew Awkwafina would steal the show but I was surprised by how much Jimmy O. Yang did as well. I've seen plenty of Henry Golding on Instagram and in the trailers and yeah he's cute but put him up on a giant screen and wow, is that man fine. People cheered when Charlie Wu showed up (I won't say why) and GASPED at the big ring reveal. There was so much enjoyment.
(Oh, another small thing: a Chinese American with a close and loving relationship with her mother. I can't think of another model for that in film or literature, it's Joy Luck Club all the way down.)
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:11 AM on August 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I also feel like I'm guilty of wanting to have my cake and eat it too by thoughtfully listening to all the critiques and then still running out to see the movie.
I saw it Wednesday night - AMC did a prerelease screening as a "Girls Night Out" thing. It was completely sold out. I didn't get my free wine glass and they stuck it way up on the 7th floor where it was hot as hell, the concession stand was closed and the escalators were out of service, and I'm a little salty about that. I doubt any other movie showing that night sold half the tickets CRA did, so do they always stick hotly anticipated prerelease films up in the neglected area, or only when there are no white people in it? Juuuuust asking.
But but but, it was SO GOOD. Fashiony and frivolous and full of shiny things. I knew I would love the cast and the fashion, but things that surprised me by how much they moved me: The music. (Hell if I knew what it was or what they were saying, but to hear Chinese-language music used as regular soundtrack music and not just to establish This Scene is Set in an Exotic Location. I realize that is the most American thing I could say, and I stand by it.) The camera lingering lovingly over mahjong tiles or dumplings. I knew Awkwafina would steal the show but I was surprised by how much Jimmy O. Yang did as well. I've seen plenty of Henry Golding on Instagram and in the trailers and yeah he's cute but put him up on a giant screen and wow, is that man fine. People cheered when Charlie Wu showed up (I won't say why) and GASPED at the big ring reveal. There was so much enjoyment.
(Oh, another small thing: a Chinese American with a close and loving relationship with her mother. I can't think of another model for that in film or literature, it's Joy Luck Club all the way down.)
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:11 AM on August 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Upon further reflection, it seems that what some Asian Americans want is white privilege - not only to see themselves represented in a fluffy rom-com with an ensemble cast, but to never hear any criticism at all about that representation. And I can see how that might seem okay and inconsequential when it comes to things like film representation (although again, saying representation is important for US but not for YOU is trying to have your cake and eat it too), but it quickly becomes problematic when we want, e.g., Aziz Ansari to get away with sexual assault the way a white man would, or for Peter Liang to get away with shooting an unarmed black man the way a white officer would. I want us to do better than that, and to insist on representation and respect without using it to push others down.
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:31 PM on August 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:31 PM on August 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yeah you might be on to something about that faux-white privilege - of course I come at it from the pov of being a Malaysian majoritarian so I've noticed it more acutely as it's occuring amongst the Malays in Malaysia and the Chinese in Singapore. I'm glad the movie is actually good! Won't be so fun to make fun of from the tropics if not ;) I cracked up a bit at this Vox article: shines a light on a related but less explored idea: that people in Asia don’t see American life as worth assimilating to. And the vision we get of their sophisticated, successful lives in this film suggests they might be onto something.
Well, glad that got through! If anything that was one other major reason why I sideeyed the novel being optioned. The only representing this series was interested in having was all the stuck up elite Singaporeans looking down at everyone and I mean, everyone. But you know, everyone needs their Downton Abbey, I guess. If this movie gets people interested in this neck of the woods I guess we better start prepping for the inevitable CRA tour package....
posted by cendawanita at 2:26 AM on August 11, 2018
Well, glad that got through! If anything that was one other major reason why I sideeyed the novel being optioned. The only representing this series was interested in having was all the stuck up elite Singaporeans looking down at everyone and I mean, everyone. But you know, everyone needs their Downton Abbey, I guess. If this movie gets people interested in this neck of the woods I guess we better start prepping for the inevitable CRA tour package....
posted by cendawanita at 2:26 AM on August 11, 2018
Lol, another Singaporean parody: Sibei* Rich Asians
And an interview with the Singaporean cast.
*Literally just means 'very' in hokkien
posted by cendawanita at 7:06 AM on August 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
And an interview with the Singaporean cast.
*Literally just means 'very' in hokkien
posted by cendawanita at 7:06 AM on August 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
How to watch CRA as an Asian-American - short but interesting and appreciated.
posted by cendawanita at 7:14 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:14 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
What Does Seeing Asians as 'Crazy Rich' Achieve? by Mimi Wong
On the one hand, it’s refreshing to see the Chinese diaspora portrayed as something other than a monolith. But as if to overcompensate for the stereotypical images of Chinese immigrants — either as dirty, poor, huddled masses or hard-working, middle-class, model minorities — Crazy Rich Asians seemingly yearns for this new label to become a desirable and transcendent alternative. What’s missing is exactly how these rich Asians came to be. This information matters because generational wealth is often the result of an unequal society: Who is allowed to own land and property determines the power dynamics. Who gets to be in this new narrative of Asians, and who’s still being ignored?
posted by cendawanita at 9:20 PM on August 14, 2018
On the one hand, it’s refreshing to see the Chinese diaspora portrayed as something other than a monolith. But as if to overcompensate for the stereotypical images of Chinese immigrants — either as dirty, poor, huddled masses or hard-working, middle-class, model minorities — Crazy Rich Asians seemingly yearns for this new label to become a desirable and transcendent alternative. What’s missing is exactly how these rich Asians came to be. This information matters because generational wealth is often the result of an unequal society: Who is allowed to own land and property determines the power dynamics. Who gets to be in this new narrative of Asians, and who’s still being ignored?
posted by cendawanita at 9:20 PM on August 14, 2018
I think inequality is part of the story as to why some Singaporeans are less than thrilled about the movie. It's been a topic in the limelight recently (since the book This Is What Inequality Looks Like came out), and a lot of us feel that the income disparity between ultra-rich Singaporeans (similar to what you'd see in the movie) and the poor is too great. Add to the fact that the poor in Singapore are more or less an invisible class that is never discussed, and the rich are also often the ones holding onto power, and Crazy Rich Asians feels like yet another look at the rich while ignoring the rest of the country.
posted by destrius at 9:39 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by destrius at 9:39 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
The irony also, especially in view of the larger conversations that frame it as Asians Vs Asians-Americans is that we're talking about two diaspora groups, with the wealthy one having histories of immigration and economic hardship (and colonisation) that later became majoritarian occupation of native land. Elite Chinese Singaporeans resemble WASPs more than anything, (and I think sunset in snow country kinda made a similar observation about that whiteness) but at the same time I know mainland Chinese ppl often think nanyang Chinese to not be authentic enough anyway. I think that's a dimension that's not often articulated enough -- I myself don't know how to phrase why it's important to note, but a part of it is why Singaporeans and Malaysians get very sore if they're assumed to 'just' be 'Chinese'.
posted by cendawanita at 10:04 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 10:04 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
And honestly if this is a seductive fantasy for Americans, forgive me for not noticing the attraction of being seen as wealthy, because I'm more distracted by the knowledge the wealth came at the expense of the native and other minority races.
posted by cendawanita at 10:07 PM on August 14, 2018
posted by cendawanita at 10:07 PM on August 14, 2018
IT'S HAPPENING: There's a CRA tour to channel your inner Rachel Chu
If you want to have your own itinerary, here's a list of the Malaysian & Singaporean locations used. (lmao 'a parking lot')
posted by cendawanita at 8:51 PM on August 15, 2018
If you want to have your own itinerary, here's a list of the Malaysian & Singaporean locations used. (lmao 'a parking lot')
posted by cendawanita at 8:51 PM on August 15, 2018
NYT: For some viewers, Crazy Rich Asians is not Asian enough. Quite a balanced article but do I like that it's on NYT written by a white guy (whom I know nothing about)?
posted by cendawanita at 6:01 AM on August 16, 2018
posted by cendawanita at 6:01 AM on August 16, 2018
30-minute cast panel BUILD interview: personal highlights to me: Henry Golding namedropping P. Ramlee; Michelle Yeoh's Manglish accent; the cast knowing how to use 'okaylah'. But also Yeoh brought up the same point I did about how Malaysian/Singaporean Chinese (especially the Anglophones) are not seen as authentically Chinese anyway, and how to Chinese in Southeast Asia, though they are diaspora, they see Western Asians as being something different too.
But also here's Henry Golding with kittens.
Even as a Malaysian I was feeling way too awkward that all the main promos are basically Americans and Malaysians, so here's one with some of the Singaporean cast: Singaporean 'Crazy Rich Asians' cast members wanted to speak more Singlish
‘Crazy Rich Asians’ is a big win for Asian American representation in Hollywood — but what about Singaporean representation?
“It’s because Singapore is an English-speaking country that it’s even possible to cast Asian Americans as leads, and be like, ‘This is an Asian American film’ — even though Constance Wu’s character is the only person in the film who is actually Asian American,” says Tiang.
“Which is not to say that it’s not relevant to Asian America,” says Naruse, who teaches Kwan’s novels to her students and is currently working on a book about Singaporean literature, contemporary capitalism and post-colonial independence. “But for a community that is so concerned about representation, I don’t understand why it’s not questioned a little bit more that Asians in Asia aren’t representing themselves.
[...] “I understand the joy that comes with Asian Americans finally getting to see themselves on screen, but if Asian American joy is staged on the backs of Singaporeans, that’s a very colonial model,” says Naruse. “I think Asian Americans, because they’re contextualizing themselves as minorities, are not remembering that they’re a minority in one of the most powerful countries in the world. Just because we’re talking about Asian Americans — as opposed to white Americans — erasing our history, doesn’t make it less problematic. ”
[...] He says the reason the “Crazy Rich Asians” books are discussed more in the context of Asian American literature than Singaporean literature, is because they play into a very tourist-friendly, government-approved facade that most local Singaporean writers are actually trying to break down.
“Because the same party has been in power for over 50 years, the Singaporean government’s narrative has always been, ‘There were many obstacles, but we were determined, smart and resourceful, and we overcame them,’” says Tiang. “Which is not untrue, but I think that leaves out a lot.”
posted by cendawanita at 7:33 AM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
But also here's Henry Golding with kittens.
Even as a Malaysian I was feeling way too awkward that all the main promos are basically Americans and Malaysians, so here's one with some of the Singaporean cast: Singaporean 'Crazy Rich Asians' cast members wanted to speak more Singlish
‘Crazy Rich Asians’ is a big win for Asian American representation in Hollywood — but what about Singaporean representation?
“It’s because Singapore is an English-speaking country that it’s even possible to cast Asian Americans as leads, and be like, ‘This is an Asian American film’ — even though Constance Wu’s character is the only person in the film who is actually Asian American,” says Tiang.
“Which is not to say that it’s not relevant to Asian America,” says Naruse, who teaches Kwan’s novels to her students and is currently working on a book about Singaporean literature, contemporary capitalism and post-colonial independence. “But for a community that is so concerned about representation, I don’t understand why it’s not questioned a little bit more that Asians in Asia aren’t representing themselves.
[...] “I understand the joy that comes with Asian Americans finally getting to see themselves on screen, but if Asian American joy is staged on the backs of Singaporeans, that’s a very colonial model,” says Naruse. “I think Asian Americans, because they’re contextualizing themselves as minorities, are not remembering that they’re a minority in one of the most powerful countries in the world. Just because we’re talking about Asian Americans — as opposed to white Americans — erasing our history, doesn’t make it less problematic. ”
[...] He says the reason the “Crazy Rich Asians” books are discussed more in the context of Asian American literature than Singaporean literature, is because they play into a very tourist-friendly, government-approved facade that most local Singaporean writers are actually trying to break down.
“Because the same party has been in power for over 50 years, the Singaporean government’s narrative has always been, ‘There were many obstacles, but we were determined, smart and resourceful, and we overcame them,’” says Tiang. “Which is not untrue, but I think that leaves out a lot.”
posted by cendawanita at 7:33 AM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
#CrazyRichAsians is headed for a monster opening, and it’s essential to look at why. A full 38% of viewers so far have been Asian—we’re COMING OUT for this film as we never have in cinematic history.
But another 24% of viewers are black or Hispanic: *viewers are 62% nonwhite* [...]
posted by mbrubeck at 7:22 PM on August 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
But another 24% of viewers are black or Hispanic: *viewers are 62% nonwhite* [...]
posted by mbrubeck at 7:22 PM on August 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
Welcome to the Summer of Asian-American Rom coms by Nancy Wang Yuen talks about Crazy Rich Asians in the context of movie history, and also To All the Boys I've Loved Before (the movie and the book).
posted by Margalo Epps at 9:28 PM on August 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Margalo Epps at 9:28 PM on August 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
That is a great twitter thread, mbrubeck. (I encourage others to read it. Jeff Yang is great and not just because he uses a gif of his own son in Fresh Off the Boat to illustrate a point lol)
And ahh! I didn't realize To All the Boys I've Loved Before was A) a Netflix release and B) out already. I loved the books (although I still haven't read #3).
Crazy Rich Asians obviously opens up a can of worms wrt representation but I feel like I'm on much more solid ground with the Lara Jean books. Author Jenny Han says that nearly every production company that approached her about making To All the Boys I've Loved Before into a movie asked to make the main character white. Like??? If you don't want to show a Korean American main character then maybe find something written by a member of your own clearly superior race to adapt for the big screen?? Or just fuck off????? I'm just so frustrated to keep hearing about this.
posted by sunset in snow country at 1:14 PM on August 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
And ahh! I didn't realize To All the Boys I've Loved Before was A) a Netflix release and B) out already. I loved the books (although I still haven't read #3).
Crazy Rich Asians obviously opens up a can of worms wrt representation but I feel like I'm on much more solid ground with the Lara Jean books. Author Jenny Han says that nearly every production company that approached her about making To All the Boys I've Loved Before into a movie asked to make the main character white. Like??? If you don't want to show a Korean American main character then maybe find something written by a member of your own clearly superior race to adapt for the big screen?? Or just fuck off????? I'm just so frustrated to keep hearing about this.
posted by sunset in snow country at 1:14 PM on August 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
i can't believe i'm alive to see the day the Mulan movie will be having more Indians in its cast (which they invented!) than CRA. another funny thing: this movie is still not showing here and in SG (it'll be this week on the 22nd). *SHRUGGIE EMOJI*
posted by cendawanita at 8:05 PM on August 19, 2018
posted by cendawanita at 8:05 PM on August 19, 2018
i'm looking forward to To All The Boys I've Loved! it looks very cute.
posted by cendawanita at 8:06 PM on August 19, 2018
posted by cendawanita at 8:06 PM on August 19, 2018
The Problem With Crazy Rich Asians Is That It’s Not Actually About Us
For Asian-Americans, the Motherland Moment is much less discussed. It’s difficult enough to confront your own place within one set of systems framed by white hegemony — how then do you turn around and discuss Asians’ own bigotries and histories within countries your ancestors come from, but you’ve never lived in?
posted by FJT at 9:59 AM on August 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
For Asian-Americans, the Motherland Moment is much less discussed. It’s difficult enough to confront your own place within one set of systems framed by white hegemony — how then do you turn around and discuss Asians’ own bigotries and histories within countries your ancestors come from, but you’ve never lived in?
posted by FJT at 9:59 AM on August 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
To All The Boys I Loved Before and Crazy Rich Asians are on Fanfare, for more discussion.
posted by Margalo Epps at 10:18 AM on August 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Margalo Epps at 10:18 AM on August 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
How Dare You Represent Your People That Way: The Oral History of Better Luck Tomorrow (Alex Wong for GQ, Aug. 16, 2018)
posted by filthy light thief at 12:09 PM on August 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
This week, Crazy Rich Asians hits theaters amidst the hype and anticipation as the first all-Asian casted studio film in decades. The movie landed a The Hollywood Reporter cover and Constance Wu, who plays a lead role in the movie, published a statement recently on Twitter about Crazy Rich Asians being more than just a movie, but also a movement for more Asian-American stories to exist in Hollywood.Respect to MC Hammer!
Almost two decades ago, Justin Lin had the same aspirations when he, along with Ernesto Foronda and Julie Asato, completed a script for a movie titled Better Luck Tomorrow (trailer; Wikipedia). It was a story about a bunch of Asian-American high-school kids searching for their own identity. The straight and narrow path of earning good grades and getting into an Ivy League School is juxtaposed against a descent into a life of drugs and petty crimes, before ultimately escalating to murder.
Today, Lin is a renowned Hollywood director, but back then, he was a film school student trying to get someone to finance a movie script that no one had much interest in. Lin was told by potential investors to get a white male lead for the movie, Macaulay Culkin specifically, if he wanted million dollar investments. “It was deflating,” Lin says. “And some of the people I approached [for money] were Asian-American.”
With his financing deadline approaching, Lin, who met MC Hammer at a trade show three years earlier and had exchanged numbers after a conversation over their shared interest in digital cameras, decided to give him a call. The next day, the money was wired to Lin. It was a last minute investment that made the making of Better Luck Tomorrow a possibility. “He saved the project,” Lin says. “I owe him a lot. For him to have faith in a stranger, I’m forever grateful.”
posted by filthy light thief at 12:09 PM on August 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
This parody of this SCMP video featuring Esther Quek ('meet the real crazy rich Asians') got a giggle from me.
posted by cendawanita at 12:41 AM on August 21, 2018
posted by cendawanita at 12:41 AM on August 21, 2018
and now it comes out that Kevin Kwan the author is... kinda wanted in Singapore. In a not-so-good way. Not sure why the national newspaper decided to publicize this at this point, but basically if he sets foot in Singapore he can be fined up to $10k or jailed up to 3 years, because he defaulted on his national service (read: he refused to return to Singapore to do the mandatory military service that all Singaporean males are required to do).
It seems some people got curious why he wasn't attending the red carpet premiere of the movie in Singapore and started digging. He might be in a pretty tight spot now - the Singapore government has not hesitated to prosecute high-profile people who default on national service, no matter their family status/background.
posted by aielen at 1:25 AM on August 22, 2018
It seems some people got curious why he wasn't attending the red carpet premiere of the movie in Singapore and started digging. He might be in a pretty tight spot now - the Singapore government has not hesitated to prosecute high-profile people who default on national service, no matter their family status/background.
posted by aielen at 1:25 AM on August 22, 2018
thinking back, this might also explain why he showed up for the Malaysia part of the film shooting and then left when the film-shooting moved to Singapore.
posted by aielen at 1:27 AM on August 22, 2018
posted by aielen at 1:27 AM on August 22, 2018
I could only find a Malay article that's not behind subscriber lock but it didn't explain why his application to renounce his citizenship (and so get out of serving NS) was rejected. Is that common?
posted by cendawanita at 7:41 AM on August 22, 2018
posted by cendawanita at 7:41 AM on August 22, 2018
There's an NYT article about it too.
Ok, so to help give a bit of context to non-Singaporeans: all Singaporean males need to undergo national service (NS) for 2-ish years, at around 18 years of age (after that, they are liable for once-a-year training call-ups for a decade or so after that). This form of universal conscription is gerenally considered necessary due to Singapore's geopolitical situation: it is a tiny island with no strategic depth, sandwiched between two larger neighbours who historically have not been that friendly with the nation. Having sufficient military might to deter Singapore's neighbours from invading it is considered crucial for its survival.
Culturally, NS is generally seen as a rite of passage, and a bothersome thing, but also a bonding experience. It's what two (male) strangers who have just met will probably start small-talking about. It's also a common shared experience among all Singaporean men regardless of racial, religious and class background.
Most people serve their NS, but there have been defaulters here and there; a classmate of mine did so to go to college when he turned 18. (Most Singaporeans men who attend university do so after serving their NS, at age 21.) Generally, as long as you have lived in Singapore as a child, you need to serve your NS. I tend to think of it as part of the social contract, a bit like taxes if you will; it's something you owe your community for having benefited from it.
As such, the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) is really strict about defaulters, like aielen mentioned. They do not want anybody to be able to skip thier NS obligations without serious consequences. Renouncing your citizenship isn't really "fair", in my opinion; in Kevin Kwan's case he lived in Singapore for 11 years and benefited from being a citizen over that period.
And whatever you think about universal conscription, you'd have to agree that it would be worse if people could get out of serving by abusing their privilege, and often times that's what happens with the people who default. They are usually people who have the means and money to move to another country. That's also why issuing a fine is not really sufficient; rich people would just pay the fine and move on.
NS is quite a complicated topic, and there's more I could talk about here if anybody's interested, but it is a bit of a derail and I need to go to sleep now.
posted by destrius at 8:30 AM on August 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
Ok, so to help give a bit of context to non-Singaporeans: all Singaporean males need to undergo national service (NS) for 2-ish years, at around 18 years of age (after that, they are liable for once-a-year training call-ups for a decade or so after that). This form of universal conscription is gerenally considered necessary due to Singapore's geopolitical situation: it is a tiny island with no strategic depth, sandwiched between two larger neighbours who historically have not been that friendly with the nation. Having sufficient military might to deter Singapore's neighbours from invading it is considered crucial for its survival.
Culturally, NS is generally seen as a rite of passage, and a bothersome thing, but also a bonding experience. It's what two (male) strangers who have just met will probably start small-talking about. It's also a common shared experience among all Singaporean men regardless of racial, religious and class background.
Most people serve their NS, but there have been defaulters here and there; a classmate of mine did so to go to college when he turned 18. (Most Singaporeans men who attend university do so after serving their NS, at age 21.) Generally, as long as you have lived in Singapore as a child, you need to serve your NS. I tend to think of it as part of the social contract, a bit like taxes if you will; it's something you owe your community for having benefited from it.
As such, the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) is really strict about defaulters, like aielen mentioned. They do not want anybody to be able to skip thier NS obligations without serious consequences. Renouncing your citizenship isn't really "fair", in my opinion; in Kevin Kwan's case he lived in Singapore for 11 years and benefited from being a citizen over that period.
And whatever you think about universal conscription, you'd have to agree that it would be worse if people could get out of serving by abusing their privilege, and often times that's what happens with the people who default. They are usually people who have the means and money to move to another country. That's also why issuing a fine is not really sufficient; rich people would just pay the fine and move on.
NS is quite a complicated topic, and there's more I could talk about here if anybody's interested, but it is a bit of a derail and I need to go to sleep now.
posted by destrius at 8:30 AM on August 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
Renouncing your citizenship isn't really "fair", in my opinion; in Kevin Kwan's case he lived in Singapore for 11 years and benefited from being a citizen over that period.
Are you saying that a child, who has no choice about where they live, is obligated for "benefits" they did not ask for? Unpolitely, fuck that. That might be a legitimate argument for someone who lived there as an adult, but not someone who left when they were 11.
posted by tavella at 8:59 AM on August 22, 2018 [8 favorites]
Are you saying that a child, who has no choice about where they live, is obligated for "benefits" they did not ask for? Unpolitely, fuck that. That might be a legitimate argument for someone who lived there as an adult, but not someone who left when they were 11.
posted by tavella at 8:59 AM on August 22, 2018 [8 favorites]
The application to renounce his SG citizenship was rejected because at that point, he could only renounce his citizenship at the age of 21 (which would be after serving NS). Basically, by the time he applied to renounce his SG citizenship it was too late to renounce it without serving NS first.
It's possible to get out of NS by renouncing your SG citizenship, but you have to do this before the age of 11, and you must have gained the citizenship of another country before the age of 11. An exit permit issued by MINDEF is also required between the ages of 13-21, after which a renunciation of citizenship can be legally processed. Kwan apparently applied to renounce his citizenship around the age of 20 / 21 (in 1994), after avoiding communication with MINDEF for 4 years. He doesn't seem to have gained his US citizenship before the age of 11, and according to MINDEF, he never applied for any exit permits. (Basically a combination of not meeting the criteria for deferment and renunciation, and not attempting to submit any paperwork until it was way too late.)
This guide to NS issues seems fairly accurate (or at least gives you a general idea of the citizenship renunciation/NS stuff).
NS is a topic that could basically be a whole other Metafilter post in itself.
I'm kinda wondering why this news was released now. It seems deliberate. Pretty sure MINDEF knew about this all along; wondering how long the Straits Times (main newspaper in Singapore) knew. (The other news publications picked up on this issue after the Straits Times broke the news). Kwan has been well-known since his book came out 5 years ago, so it's almost like these entities were sitting on the news for years.
Part of me wonders if Kwan is trying to build a case for him to return to Singapore with less consequence (i.e. fine and no jail term), since he has been putting Singapore on the map with his CRA franchise. Broadly speaking, the Singapore government allows Singaporean males to defer their NS if they have talents that allow them to represent Singapore well globally - the most famous example would be Joseph Schooling, Singapore's first Olympic gold medalist. Schooling won't be serving NS until he's at least 25 or so - has been granted deferment due to his talent in swimming.
In any case, if it's really true that Kwan hasn't set foot in Singapore since the early 90s - it's kinda impressive how he managed to write his 3 books while not having been there for 30+ years.
posted by aielen at 10:16 AM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's possible to get out of NS by renouncing your SG citizenship, but you have to do this before the age of 11, and you must have gained the citizenship of another country before the age of 11. An exit permit issued by MINDEF is also required between the ages of 13-21, after which a renunciation of citizenship can be legally processed. Kwan apparently applied to renounce his citizenship around the age of 20 / 21 (in 1994), after avoiding communication with MINDEF for 4 years. He doesn't seem to have gained his US citizenship before the age of 11, and according to MINDEF, he never applied for any exit permits. (Basically a combination of not meeting the criteria for deferment and renunciation, and not attempting to submit any paperwork until it was way too late.)
This guide to NS issues seems fairly accurate (or at least gives you a general idea of the citizenship renunciation/NS stuff).
NS is a topic that could basically be a whole other Metafilter post in itself.
I'm kinda wondering why this news was released now. It seems deliberate. Pretty sure MINDEF knew about this all along; wondering how long the Straits Times (main newspaper in Singapore) knew. (The other news publications picked up on this issue after the Straits Times broke the news). Kwan has been well-known since his book came out 5 years ago, so it's almost like these entities were sitting on the news for years.
Part of me wonders if Kwan is trying to build a case for him to return to Singapore with less consequence (i.e. fine and no jail term), since he has been putting Singapore on the map with his CRA franchise. Broadly speaking, the Singapore government allows Singaporean males to defer their NS if they have talents that allow them to represent Singapore well globally - the most famous example would be Joseph Schooling, Singapore's first Olympic gold medalist. Schooling won't be serving NS until he's at least 25 or so - has been granted deferment due to his talent in swimming.
In any case, if it's really true that Kwan hasn't set foot in Singapore since the early 90s - it's kinda impressive how he managed to write his 3 books while not having been there for 30+ years.
posted by aielen at 10:16 AM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
Thanks aielen for providing more background info.
I'm not really sure if the news release was really deliberate, in that way... seems like what happened was that the Straits Times got wind of the reason why he couldn't attend the premiere, and checked with MINDEF about it. MINDEF had to answer the way they did because anything else would suggest they condone his draft dodging. ST knew it was a good story that would get lots of eyeballs, and so they ran it. MINDEF definitely knew all along, but I think they generally wouldn't publicly go after a draft dodger that way; they usually don't. The deal tends to be: if you escape your NS, you are criminally liable and can never return to Singapore without being arrested, but they're not going to actively hunt you down internationally. So the price you pay is effectively exile. Hence I wouldn't really say that Kevin Kwan is "wanted"; I don't think anybody is actively trying to arrest him unless he returns.
Are you saying that a child, who has no choice about where they live, is obligated for "benefits" they did not ask for? Unpolitely, fuck that. That might be a legitimate argument for someone who lived there as an adult, but not someone who left when they were 11.
Yeah, I totally agree, but children are still subject to the laws of the nation they live in, even if they didn't choose to be born and live there. I don't know enough political philosophy to say what are they ways we could resolve that. Perhaps a better way of enforcing universal conscription is to levy some penalty on the parents of the child, being the legal guardians, but that seems to be a whole other can of worms.
Anyway, you can definitely see it as being unfair to the child who is being forced to serve against his will. But it is equally unfair to every citizen child. I don't see it being socially just to allow a child to avoid NS by renouncing their citizenship, because by and large it is only the privileged families who have overseas connections and resources to emigrate that can take advantage of this.
What makes this whole thing more complex, though, is that while nobody can skip NS, deferring NS is a thing, and in my opinion the way it is done presently is kind of unjust. Like aielen mentioned, some men can defer their NS obligations by proving they have some kind of talent that will benefit Singapore, typically in a sport. But the only ones who can benefit from this are from families that can afford a lot of time and money training their child to excel in a sport.
More commonly, though, every year there are hundreds of people who get to defer their NS to complete their university education. Some of these get deferment to study medicine in university, before coming back to serve as a medical officer (i.e. a doctor). Others are receipients of a scholarship from the Public Service Commision (PSC), on the basis of their academic performance in high school. In the latter case, it isn't really clear why these scholarship holders should be granted deferment over other citizens.
Ultimately, it boils down to the kind of "meritocracy" the Singapore government promotes as it's core value, which to me is unjust. And it is the presence of such injustices that make things like Kevin Kwan's draft dodging a bit more thorny, because the government can appear to be hypocritical in its actions.
posted by destrius at 8:49 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm not really sure if the news release was really deliberate, in that way... seems like what happened was that the Straits Times got wind of the reason why he couldn't attend the premiere, and checked with MINDEF about it. MINDEF had to answer the way they did because anything else would suggest they condone his draft dodging. ST knew it was a good story that would get lots of eyeballs, and so they ran it. MINDEF definitely knew all along, but I think they generally wouldn't publicly go after a draft dodger that way; they usually don't. The deal tends to be: if you escape your NS, you are criminally liable and can never return to Singapore without being arrested, but they're not going to actively hunt you down internationally. So the price you pay is effectively exile. Hence I wouldn't really say that Kevin Kwan is "wanted"; I don't think anybody is actively trying to arrest him unless he returns.
Are you saying that a child, who has no choice about where they live, is obligated for "benefits" they did not ask for? Unpolitely, fuck that. That might be a legitimate argument for someone who lived there as an adult, but not someone who left when they were 11.
Yeah, I totally agree, but children are still subject to the laws of the nation they live in, even if they didn't choose to be born and live there. I don't know enough political philosophy to say what are they ways we could resolve that. Perhaps a better way of enforcing universal conscription is to levy some penalty on the parents of the child, being the legal guardians, but that seems to be a whole other can of worms.
Anyway, you can definitely see it as being unfair to the child who is being forced to serve against his will. But it is equally unfair to every citizen child. I don't see it being socially just to allow a child to avoid NS by renouncing their citizenship, because by and large it is only the privileged families who have overseas connections and resources to emigrate that can take advantage of this.
What makes this whole thing more complex, though, is that while nobody can skip NS, deferring NS is a thing, and in my opinion the way it is done presently is kind of unjust. Like aielen mentioned, some men can defer their NS obligations by proving they have some kind of talent that will benefit Singapore, typically in a sport. But the only ones who can benefit from this are from families that can afford a lot of time and money training their child to excel in a sport.
More commonly, though, every year there are hundreds of people who get to defer their NS to complete their university education. Some of these get deferment to study medicine in university, before coming back to serve as a medical officer (i.e. a doctor). Others are receipients of a scholarship from the Public Service Commision (PSC), on the basis of their academic performance in high school. In the latter case, it isn't really clear why these scholarship holders should be granted deferment over other citizens.
Ultimately, it boils down to the kind of "meritocracy" the Singapore government promotes as it's core value, which to me is unjust. And it is the presence of such injustices that make things like Kevin Kwan's draft dodging a bit more thorny, because the government can appear to be hypocritical in its actions.
posted by destrius at 8:49 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
In any case, if it's really true that Kwan hasn't set foot in Singapore since the early 90s - it's kinda impressive how he managed to write his 3 books while not having been there for 30+ years.
I think this is very likely the case, which now make his comments about CRA being a love letter to Singapore and so on a little weird.
posted by destrius at 8:51 PM on August 22, 2018
I think this is very likely the case, which now make his comments about CRA being a love letter to Singapore and so on a little weird.
posted by destrius at 8:51 PM on August 22, 2018
I think this is very likely the case, which now make his comments about CRA being a love letter to Singapore and so on a little weird.
KAN??
(sorry had to resort to Malay/Malaysian English)
posted by cendawanita at 9:11 PM on August 22, 2018
KAN??
(sorry had to resort to Malay/Malaysian English)
posted by cendawanita at 9:11 PM on August 22, 2018
I think this is very likely the case, which now make his comments about CRA being a love letter to Singapore and so on a little weird.
To me this actually made his comments make a whole lot more sense.
I have some friends in similar situations, and they constantly yearn to return to Singapore because they feel such a strong connection to the country (having grown up in it, with all their family/friends networks there) - while knowing that they basically can never go back, because of the consequences. It's basically a lifelong exile from the country you grew up in.
Kwan hasn't been back to Singapore since he was a child, but he's probably been to the region and surrounding countries frequently (hehh Malaysia, Thailand..) - and he's probably spent most of his life missing Singapore. The people I know in similar situations often visit the countries nearby as well; some even try to establish a kind of life for themselves in those countries. But it's basically that constant feeling of "so near and yet so far"; knowing you're so close to the country you most identify with, hearing all the news that comes out of it, and still being unable to physically return. It's a constant angst.
posted by aielen at 9:44 PM on August 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
To me this actually made his comments make a whole lot more sense.
I have some friends in similar situations, and they constantly yearn to return to Singapore because they feel such a strong connection to the country (having grown up in it, with all their family/friends networks there) - while knowing that they basically can never go back, because of the consequences. It's basically a lifelong exile from the country you grew up in.
Kwan hasn't been back to Singapore since he was a child, but he's probably been to the region and surrounding countries frequently (hehh Malaysia, Thailand..) - and he's probably spent most of his life missing Singapore. The people I know in similar situations often visit the countries nearby as well; some even try to establish a kind of life for themselves in those countries. But it's basically that constant feeling of "so near and yet so far"; knowing you're so close to the country you most identify with, hearing all the news that comes out of it, and still being unable to physically return. It's a constant angst.
posted by aielen at 9:44 PM on August 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
it does contextualise why he said he initially wrote it for the American market though, imo, and also the unfortunate parts of his rendition that we've been talking about.
posted by cendawanita at 9:55 PM on August 22, 2018
posted by cendawanita at 9:55 PM on August 22, 2018
I like this Dee Kosh review of the movie lol.
posted by aielen at 9:51 PM on August 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by aielen at 9:51 PM on August 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I definitely roflmao'd, you should post it on the fanfare thread!
posted by cendawanita at 10:40 PM on August 24, 2018
posted by cendawanita at 10:40 PM on August 24, 2018
« Older The Problem of Production | Do the rich taste best when baked, or when cooked... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Interesting tactic - Domestic (U.S.) Movie Theatrical Market Summary 1995 to 2018 show that movie watching's peak was 2005, but we're not too far below that peak, despite the steady climb of streaming on Netflix. Is there still that much cache in getting seen in theaters versus at home? I ask because I honestly have no idea because I'm pretty much out of the loop about media trends.
To that point, I only recognized one of the lead actors: Constance Wu, who is fantastic in Fresh Off The Boat, which I heartily recommend to one and all.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:57 AM on August 2, 2018 [2 favorites]